How good is a fully upgraded Technics SL-1210mk2 compared to other high end TT?

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Originally Posted by aniki

This was exactly my experience when switching to the resomat. Albeit on a standard platter. Have you used the resomat Marco?

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Hi Adam,

Yup, it's really good, and does all the things you're relating to. It was my favourite mat before I discovered the Nagaoka. On my T/T, the Nagaoka moves that effect on further still, but at some cost (approximately five times that of the Resomat).

VFM/SPPV wise, the Resomat has it, but for those seeking to eke out that last few percent of performance from their T/Ts, certainly with an ETP platter in the equation, I'd thoroughly recommend the Naga - if you can still find one! :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

The principle behind the Nagaoka crystal mat is that energy which is normally wasted, by being sunk into the mat (acting as a damper), is instead retained within the cantilever/generator assembly of the cartridge, thus otherwise lost musical information is retained, producing a clearer, more open and much more detailed sound.

Marco.

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Yes. As I pointed out to Cagey - which mat/platter will work well depend on the design of the turntable as a whole, and what you are trying to do with the problem "waste" energy from the stylus's friction with the record. In a perfect situation there would be no waste energy to do anything with - all of the kinetic energy at the stylus would be perfectly transduced to electrical energy. No problem resonances and no waste! But it aint ever perfect.

Now - the man what really knows is on holiday this week, with a big "do not disturb" sign on the door. However, I am pretty sure he would baulk a bit at that description. Certainly damping (which controls the resonances) is not his favourite solution (see also my comments about arms, and platter rigidity). Damping, in addition to controlling resonances and "spikes" tends to dull and muddy the sound as you describe. (Hence FXR with its +-3db resonance plots and no damping - smooth detailed "live" sound). But if you can't have no waste energy, next best is usually to channel it away "neutrally". Reflecting back just shoves it into the arm - and since there is only one arm I know of which can handle that energy "nicely" - FXR/FX3/FX1200 with resonances controlled for 10Hz to 20Khz +-3db, then reflecting the energy up into the arm just amplifies the arm resonance problems. Of course, you can use damping and decoupling in the arm, but that makes for a muddy sound and loss of detail...

I mentioned to Cagey, that in theory at least there are other ways to skin the cat from the original Pink Triangle solution - and feeding the energy back evenly is that other way to skin the cat - but it has the problems I outlined above. The Pink Triangle solution was to channel it away "neutrally" (all frequencies the same). This was achieved by a thick acrylic platter. The acrylic (like delron) is a close impedance match to vinyl, so used without a mat, you effectively have a VERY VERY thick record. In the PT's case the energy which is in that thick record passes via a very high quality bearing into a sub-chassis which disperses it as heat (mostly). A thin acrylic mat doesn't help. Its an impedance match with the record, but a bad impedance match to the platter. The acrylic platter also benefitted from being light weight - which was essential to work with the small tip inverted bearing, essential for stability and good energy transfer. However, very light platter mass is less critical with a more conventional bearing design like spin (and current funk bearings)

The weakness of the acrylic platter is that its relative softness (lack of rigidity) effectively adds that unwanted damping element again. Achromat was the solution to a mat instead of a thick platter. Achromat material gives a good impedance match, but instead of channelling the energy away to a sub-chassis to disperse it, it is dispersed by the tiny bubbles in the mat - again - mostly as heat. So once you have achromat the question is how can you supply the most rigid and non-resonant undamped platter to support it? Answer -strata. Again, coming back to those "can I use it with another mat" questions. That misses the point. The point is not "which mat should I use with strata". The question is "which platter should I use to optimise achromat"?

But - whilst not challenging your right to enjoy what you hear from your Nagoaka mat - it seems a bit arse about face with regard to which bit should be rigid and non-resonant, and which bit should grip and interface with the LP. Evidently it works well for you

For the record though - energy cannot be retained in the cantilever or (anywhere else for that matter). It may be transferred to them efficiently, but it won't be retained in them. And if it is transferred to the cantilever, and not dispersed as some other energy form (heat or acoustic being the 2 prime candidates) it is going to pass into the arm tube. How much that is a good thing will depend on the arm tube and cantilever construction. But whilst I know you will be confident the ones you use will be matched and splendid for the job - that is not obvious for most cantilevers and arm tubes. Think about it. Why do you want to feed energy into a cantilever? its just going to be noise - which will only have a neutral effect on the sound if any materials it passes to respond evenly across the audio frequency spectrum to that energy input (ie have no significant resonance peaks)

(The music to be "retained in the cartridge coils" is from the wiggling of the cantilever by the grooves of the record. The energy you are talking about - the waste energy "needle talk" is a problem which potentially will cause the stylus wiggling to be imperfectly reflected in the cartridge coils. Don't muddle your energies! No mat or platter is going to influence (directly) the primary energy transferred to the cartridge coils - that is a function of the record moving the stylus tip back and forth - so no chance of it being "sucked up" by damping)

But, at the risk of repeating myself in what I appreciate is not the clearest post - the issue is controlling the waste energy. Doing so with damping is bad. Just reflecting it up to the arm via the cantilever, is only going to work if the arm can handle it - without damping/decoupling. Most can't .

But if it works for you - enjoy it. ;)

Lol - what are you like? :doh: :eyebrows:

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Originally Posted by Oldpinkman

But if it works for you - enjoy it.

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It certainly does, on my T/T and my system, and (as good as it was) better than the Achromat did. These things are obviously heavily turntable and system dependent.

If I compared the MKI Funk platter/bonded Achromat combo, which I used before, with the MN ETP/Nagaoka, I'd say the latter was about 15-20% better overall, in any sonic or musical area you care to mention.

Obviously, however, I've not tried the Strata :)

Marco.

Or the Spin.
As said before, before I decide on which platter I will use, I really need to hear the ETP. :scratch:
I know how good Spin/Strata is now I have resolved my set up issue.

It would be really interesting to hear the Nagaoka mat on a Mk1 Funk platter too.
I just feel that it seems pointless to change the platter material slightly, if you cover it up, but what do I know. :scratch:

When I first got the ETP I used it to good effect, sans mat. Then I tried a Resomat, which was better, and after that the Nagaoka crystal mat, which was better still.

For me, nothing in hi-fi is ever written in stone, so experimenting is the order of the day, which is when you often discover some superb combinations of things that 'just work'. The Nagaoka/ETP, on my T/T, is one such combination :)

Marco.

I have just dialed into the web pages of Nagaoka and it seems that they are out-of-stock.
Further down the page they seem to indiacte that they are not making any more.

I am wondering what real difference there would be between the ETP and Mk1 Funk platters fitted with the crystal mat. I bet it is very small.

It is a discontinued product, Mike, but some outlets have small stocks remaining, for example Juno Records, here on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/11163...f14=108&ff19=0

And Divine Audio have one left, at a VERY good price: https://www.divineaudio.co.uk/nagaok...tsMaArhC8P8HAQ

As no more are being produced by Nagaoka, when remaining stocks are gone, they're gone, which is why when Paul was selling them a while back, I snapped one up! The Nagaoka is truly one of the great NOS T/T products ever made, from the heyday of high-end audio :)

Not recommended, however, for belt-drive T/Ts with puny little motor units, as the mat weighs 1kg! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by CageyH

I am wondering what real difference there would be between the ETP and Mk1 Funk platters fitted with the crystal mat. I bet it is very small.

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Dunno, Kev. That's not one I've tried. Certainly the difference between a MKI Funk platter (with bonded Achromat), and an ETP, used 'au naturel', on my T/T, was pretty significant. How much the Nagaoka mat would level the playing field, in that respect, remains to be seen, should anyone be in the position to try it.

Marco.

£100 for a mat seems a bit steep if I don't like it. Especially if I don't end up keeping the Mk1 platter.

No-one was asking you to buy one......

If you did though, and didn't like it, given its relative rarity (due to increase once all remaining stocks have been exhausted), I suspect you'd have no problem moving it on and getting your money back :)

Marco.

I know nobody was. It would just make an interesting comparison while I still have Strata here on loan.

A valid point about shipping it on.
More food for thought....

Indeed. If you bought the Nagaoka, and didn't like it, I'm almost certain that within an hour of advertising it for sale here, it'd be gone. Therefore, at worst, call it £120 to partake in an interesting experiment, and at best, it could be just the solution you're looking for :)

Marco.

Yep, but I hope to place the order for the FH3s this month. :)

Wosser FH3s when they're at home? :scratch:

Marco.

Electricbeach FH3 speakers.

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Originally Posted by CageyH

Electricbeach FH3 speakers.

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Hmm. Frugel Horns. They should be interesting. What sensitivity are you looking at with those Kevin?

I reckon you're going to need some super smooth and sweet valve amplification there. :)

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Originally Posted by CageyH

Electricbeach FH3 speakers.

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Ah, I see... Knew nowt about those. Enjoy! :)

Marco,

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Originally Posted by Marco

Ah, I see... Knew nowt about those. Enjoy! :)

Marco,

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Fort ewe knew everything master.:ner:

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Originally Posted by Tarzan

Fort ewe knew everything master.:ner:

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No No No :nono:

That was my ex wife :D

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

Hmm. Frugel Horns. They should be interesting. What sensitivity are you looking at with those Kevin?

I reckon you're going to need some super smooth and sweet valve amplification there. :)

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They will be usingthe Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 drivers - https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-4-full-range/

My amps are supposed to work really well with the speakers, so it will be interesting to find out just how good these are. Only issue is the 200 hours of running them in.

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Originally Posted by Audio Al

No No No :nono:

That was my ex wife :D

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Never knew you and Marco were once an item.:scratch:
















:eek:

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Originally Posted by Mike_New

I have just dialed into the web pages of Nagaoka and it seems that they are out-of-stock.
Further down the page they seem to indiacte that they are not making any more.

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This looks similar (almost identical), but cheaper - http://www.analogueseduction.net/tur...atter-mat.html

Nice find, Kevin. That could well do a very similar job! So when are you ordering one? ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Tarzan

Never knew you and Marco were once an item.:scratch:

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I chucked him because he was a snide ride.....

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I chucked him because he was a snide ride.....

Marco.

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Cast to one side for a Sheep :doh:

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Originally Posted by CageyH

This looks similar (almost identical), but cheaper - http://www.analogueseduction.net/tur...atter-mat.html

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Doesn't look even close in quality imho.


Regards Neil

It's pretty hard to tell from a photo.

Well, this thread have lately turned into another platter debate:scratch: And we have some of those threads already on the forum. The ETP platter is always interesting to discuss, and still I would like to hear it before I buy such an expensive platter. How much differense will I get compared to the Oyaide BR-One butyl mat + Oyaide MJ-12?

I have also been thinking of saving up to buy a second TT. I would have a hard time to part with my M5G now and maybe the best thing to do would be to get a second table? One of the best looking tables in my eyes are the Nottingham Analogue tables; and espesially the Space 294 and the Hyperspace. I once heard the NAS Annalog and it sounded fantastic. But that was before I got into vinyl.

Has any of you any comments when it comes to comparing the sound of a modifies Technics to a NAS Ace Space 294 or NAS Hyperspace? What would I expect with the NAS?

My music is mostly jazz and classical music. Other music I listen to would be Dire Straits and Tracy Chapman...hardly any rock music....

NAS vs modified techy??:scratch:

Well, I'll might as well write it here, since I started this thread. Yesterday I ordered a Mike New ETP Platter (same as the one Marco got Mike told me). I'm very excited and really hope it will be a noticable upgrade compared to the Oyaide platter:) This upgrade will hopefully turn my great TT into something very different and high end kind of table...

I'll post some pctures and a mini review when I have it installed.

I found the Mike New platter better than the Oyaide on top of the Funk platter
Nice, subtle improvement

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Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

Well, I'll might as well write it here, since I started this thread. Yesterday I ordered a Mike New ETP Platter (same as the one Marco got Mike told me). I'm very excited and really hope it will be a noticable upgrade compared to the Oyaide platter. This upgrade will hopefully turn my great TT into something very different and high end kind of table...

I'll post some pctures and a mini review when I have it installed.

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Way-hey, well done, Chris - I knew you'd get there in the end! :thumbsup:

Expect the ETP to 'calm' things down and make the whole musical presentation much more, 'grown up', finessed and effortless, essentially allowing the T/T to take everything in its stride.

One of the things I always found, when the stock Technics platter was in the equation, no matter which mat accompanied it, was the existence of a kind of 'zingy'/etched quality to the sound, and a slight roughness/'uncouth' nature to the sonic presentation, which simply reminded you that you were listening to a good T/T, but not a great one.

The ETP platter changes all that, refining every aspect of how the T/T reproduces music, giving it that sense of 'correctness', believability and 'un-rushed' quality that one only gets when listening to the best, most 'sorted', if you will, turntables. Make sure you take your time fitting it, paying close attention to every aspect of Mike's instructions, and you should be a happy bunny!

Try the platter initially, 'au naturel', without a mat, as it will have a label recess cut out, and see how you get on. Later, you may wish to try using a Resomat, which for me improves things a little further. One other small point I'd add is that, with the ETP, you may no longer need to use the Techniboots (with your Isonoes), as the ETP sorts out the resonance issues the boots would've been addressing with the stock platter in place.

Good luck and let us know when your ETP arrives! :cool:

Marco.

Thank you very much, Marco:) I will post pictures and a little review once I get it:cool:

Looking forward to that, Chris :)

Marco.

Just received the ETP:) But no instructions included. Guess Mike's asleep down under, so if anyone can help me out I can try it out tonight:D

Isn't it just a case of swapping over the magnet assembly from the old platter?
Based on my experience with the Funk platters, align all four holes, and fit the screws from the original platter.

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Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

Just received the ETP:) But no instructions included. Guess Mike's asleep down under, so if anyone can help me out I can try it out tonight:D

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Hey Chris, if you PM me your email address I'll send you the instructions. I have a copy on my Mac that Mike sent me. It's def worth having them as there are a few little things to look out for.

Thanks guys:) I took the chance of just unscrewing the three screws. I thought more would come off, but when I saw it was just the magnet ring it was very easy:)

Just had a quick spin tonight, and I can share my experience later:)

I did in include the Instructions I have just checked the email I sent him.
It could be that somehow they did not get registered with the text.

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Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

Thanks guys:) I took the chance of just unscrewing the three screws. I thought more would come off, but when I saw it was just the magnet ring it was very easy:)

Just had a quick spin tonight, and I can share my experience later:)

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The magnet should be perfectly concentric to the spindle hole. I suggest you get a mat or paper template with strobe markings, so that you can test the speed stability.

The counter bore which houses the Ferite ring magnet is machined 'in situe' and contiguous with the machining of the location hole for the boss.
This ensures absolute concentricity of the magnet.
Also the bore is machined with a tollerance which address's the small changes in dimensions of the assembly and permits the accurate centering of the Magnet assembly into the bore.
The ETP PLatter is also run on my SL1200 test-bed for 2 hours prior to posting,
using a speed indicator strobe.
So you see there is no way the ferrite magnet assembly can be out of centre, however there will always be "experts" who
have never used an ETP Platter who are only to willing to give advice on what to do.

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Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

As the title says;

How good is a fully modified Techy 12xx, with say new PSU, MN Bearing, ETP platter, Isonoe Feet, new arm (Jelco 750D or Origin Live Silver or Funk Firm)…

compared to say:

Linn LP12

JR Transrotor ZET-1

Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge

VPI Classic

Michell GyroDeck

Michell Orbe SE

Avid Diva

ProJect RPM-10.1

:scratch:

ALL of these TT obove will cost about the same as a fully modified Technics deck.

My upgrades so far has been relatively low cost (KAB Fluid Damper, Mains PSU, Achromat 1200, Isonoe). The three next upgrades will be high cost upgrades:
- Mike New Bearing.
- Mike New ETP platter
- Origin Live Silver/ Jelco 750D tonearm/ FX arm

I was hoping that someone that has heard or own a fully upgraded 12xx, and compared it to or upgraded it to another high end TT could share som input. Hopefully compared it to one of the above.

Here is a picture of the German made JR Trans Rotor ZET-1::eyebrows:

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Depends what music you listen to really. All are good decks in their own way, although I would avoid direct drive.
Best in terms of value for money, is the rega, especially if you listen to rock music, it really rocks.

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Originally Posted by Box13

I would avoid direct drive.

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:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Box13

I would avoid direct drive.

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:eek:

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

:eek:

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He's come to the right place:lol:

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Originally Posted by aniki

:popcorn:

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That is blasphemous that is.:popcorn:

I cannot belive how good my Technics has become after I got the Mike New ETP Platter:eyebrows:

If the deck is of high quality, I realise now that even a budget MM cartridge like the AT-120E/b will sound:stalks:

http://youtu.be/RnJQBGhrHAQ

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Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

I cannot belive how good my Technics has become after I got the Mike New ETP Platter:eyebrows:

If the deck is of high quality, I realise now that even a budget MM cartridge like the AT-120E/b will sound:stalks:

http://youtu.be/RnJQBGhrHAQ

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Hi Chris, believe it ! The ETP was the icing on the cake for me, just excellent and brought everything together :)

Welcome to the MNETP Club ;)

Don't tell everyone Chris or else they will all want one.