Fellas
Did anyone get to the bottom of the issue regarding which trannies the A23 actually uses and are they really the best to use with a 103R or SA which are 14ohm.
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Fellas
Did anyone get to the bottom of the issue regarding which trannies the A23 actually uses and are they really the best to use with a 103R or SA which are 14ohm.
No one will say, :confused: but I measured one and will try to get some made. :kiss:
:bag:
Dave
I only ask because my trigger finger is poised, ready to order a 103 from Dave, but I use an A23 and am not sure what flavour 103 to go for.
Any 103 will work very well with the A23. :kiss:
:bag:
Dave
I've not heard anything better *so far* than the A23 and HA-500 with any 103 - 'R' , 'Pro' and 'SA' included, but I'm expecting great things from Dave's SUT when it's born :smoking:
One I've not heard is Denon's own AU-S1, but I'd imagine it's quite similar in balance to the HA-500 head amp. A future project is to upgrade the HA-500 with high-grade modern caps, resistors, etc, and the PSU to something beefier in a separate case, all of which I'm sure will improve its performance further.
To be honest, I'd be very surprised if the AU-S1 is better than the A23, given the latter's 'provenance', but you know me, I might import one some day just to find out ;)
Marco.
The M3D was my first cartridge, bought fourty years ago in 1969. I think I paid £7 for it; I'm sure an Ortofon SPU would have cost considerably more then. I only bought it because I was having great trouble in obtaining a B&O SP6, the cartridge that I really wanted. When asked what the Shure equivalent was I was told the M3D. I used it for about a year then moved on to the M55E.Quote:
Originally Posted by SPS
I am intrigued that you rate the M3D along with Denons and Lyras. You don't seem to be alone; an M3D went on eBay recently for £87 !
Regards
Well, I've just won this little baby on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EOIBSA:US:1123
:cool:
I'll report my impressions when it arrives :)
Marco.
Yep, that's the one. I first used mine in a Garrard SP25 (we all have to start somewhere), then when I replaced the turntable/arm with an SME fitted to a Collaro 2020 deck (rim drive), the M3D spent several months in its new home. I then moved on to the M55E, which at the time I thought to be a significant upgrade. I still have a 55E, though not my original sample.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I would be very interested to hear of your findings. Looks like I might have to give the M55E another listen. It would be ironic if I ended up desparately wanting to try another sample of my first cartridge.
What goes around comes around?
Regards
Barry
Hi Barry,
Well I heard Steve's (SPS on the forum) M3D and was blown away by it, hence why I've now got one myself.
His had that lovely rich 'tone' you get so often with classic cartridges, which is completely missing on modern designs where the emphasis is more on forensic detail retrieval than realistic 'tone' and a more 'forward', but in my opinion, less musical presentation.
It's not that the M3D sounds 'tubby', overblown or dull - its bass simply has real weight which adds just the right amount of body to voices and instruments in order that they sound genuinely 'real' rather than 'tinny' synthetic sounding facsimiles of the real thing.
The midrange on the M3D is also quite shockingly vivid and dynamic sounding, rather like a Decca, although not quite so fierce, providing set-up is optimised, and the top-end is nicely open and 'airy'. It needs lots of mass to work right, as it comes from an era and pedigree similar to that of the DL-103 (both were used in broadcasting studios) when high-mass arms and heavyweight turntables to take them were the norm.
I should get good results using it on the Techy with the Jelco and heavy counterweight and NOS AT LT-12 magnesium headshell.
My feeling with some classic MM cartridges is that the generally poor quality of phono stages and amplifiers that were used in those days didn't allow the full performance of them to be realised. The quality of both amplifiers and phono stages nowadays releases the potential in the cartridges that was always there. This fact was proved to me recently when I listened to a Shure V15 TypeIII and M75ED through the tube MM stage in my Croft - the sound was fantastic and far better than I remember hearing first time around!
Perhaps that'll be the case if you try an M3D again? I'm certainly looking forward to hearing the results I get with mine :cool:
Marco.
i have 103 and haufe trannies - apparently the similar as A23
does anyone know if A23 has any resistance loading so 103 sees an optimal 100ohm or not?
I don't have any resistance mounted on my A23
and it goes to any plain 47k MM phono?
OK, no resistors needed. that's a good news.
I believe that the A23 uses Haufe T-7883 transformers. Nobody seems to know and neither Keith Aschenbrenner nor Haufe will say.
If they are the T-7833, then running them into a 47KOhm load will present the cartridge with a load of 494.5 Ohm.
Incidently, the T-7883 is designed for a primary load of 40 Ohm and a secondary load of 47KOhm - the coil resistance of the Denon DL103 is 40 Ohm.
The 7883 would thus seem to be the ideal transformer to use with the Denon 103, and if the same transformer is used in the Auditorium A23, then that would explain why it too is a good SUT to use and thus Marco's and other's good opinion of this device.
Regards
OK than it's clear. I don't know how I come to this 100ohm load, probably I picked it somewhere on the net.
Considering 103R has a different impedance (14ohm if I'm not wrong) - so T-7883 won't be ideal. Has anyone tried A23 with 103R and what are the thoughts? And what is generally considered to be a good choice for 103R?
I've disconnected a resistor loading however it doesn't perform that well with a bare 7883 trannie. To my ears it's still better when a 103 is loaded with 100ohm than what it is loaded with a plain 7883..... Rounded, fuller, more natural, more subtle..... This is it (and goes what Denon says in the manuals...)
Sorry for changing subject but while were on 103R..Bling kings might be intrested in one of these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-Den...item27accf47b1
Hi anubisgrau (what's your proper first name? :))Quote:
Has anyone tried A23 with 103R and what are the thoughts? And what is generally considered to be a good choice for 103R?
I use a Denon 103SA (basically a 103R with a 'fancy' body) with my A23, and the combination is superb. Therefore, I wouldn't worry about any incompatibility issues.
The A23 loads partnering cartridges at just over 100ohms, and this is definitely the optimal setting for any DL-103. Anything much over that tends to make the sound rather 'edgy' and brittle.
Marco.
OK - this is a bit more clear now, because your 103SA has 14ohm impedance while mine 103 has 40 ohm impedance.
therefore 103R and 103 have different recommended loadings. AFAIK 103R wants 40 ohm with a trannie and 103 wants 100ohm min.
when you were ordering your A23, did you have to emphasize what version of denon you have?
i mean, i can't talk about things I haven't tried and maybe it just works superb with both, however there should be a difference because loading is a quite tricky thing. unless there are two different A23s (or different Haufe trannies).
LOL - before we go any further, do you have a 'normal' first name? I'm old fashioned in that I like to talk to people with 'real' names :)
Marco.
Gordan:smoking:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Nice one, Gordan. I'll continue the discussion tomorrow - right now I'm off to bed for an early night :cool:
Laters,
Marco.
marco, your tomorrow is a bit long:)
anyway - impedance matching resistors removed and now 103 feeds haufe T7883 for the best result so far in my room. the preamp is a tube rectified (separated supplies for heating and voltage), 2-step (ECC82 & ECC83), phase correct, passive DIY RIAA. EAR 834p is collecting dust on the shelf....
To sort out exactly which version of the 103 we are talking about, the following would appear to be helpful:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/...L/denonDL.html
and
http://www.vinyl-lebt.de/SME/DL103/Thumbnails.html
To summarise:
DL-103 (1964) Broadcast-only model designed for NHK, the Japanese broadcasting authority.
DL-103 (1970) First consumer version Spherical stylus. Compliance 5cu. Coil resistance 40Ω.
DL-103S (1974) Higher compliance (8 cu) than 103, elliptical stylus. Coil resistance 40Ω.
DL-103D (1977) Higher compliance (12 cu). Elliptical stylus. Frequency response to 65kHz.
DL-103T (date ?) DL103 packaged with step up transformer.
DL-103/TII (1978) 15th Anniversary commemorative version with improved tracking.
(DL-103U (1981) Not a cartridge but a dedicated headshell)
DL-103 GOLD (1982) 20th Anniversary model, gold finish DL-103M (1983) Body re-style.
DL-103LC (1985) 75th Anniversary Commemorative edition LC-OFC coils.
DL-103LCII (1986) LC-OFC copper coils. Coil resistance 13Ω.
DL-103SL (1989) Change of materials and styling, limited edition DL-103GL (1990) High purity gold wire, limited production of 2,000.
DL-103C1 (1991) LC-OFC DL-103FL (1993) Fine-line stylus.
DL-103R (1994) Stylus shape,compliance, tracking force, frequency response and mass as per DL-103 but change to high purity copper wire of purity 99.9999% (6N) for the coil, output voltage of 0.25mV, and impedance of 14 Ω.
DL-103 PRO (date ?) Similar in appearance to the 103R Elliptical stylus Compliance 6cu Coil resistance 38Ω.
DL-103SA (date ?) Blue coloured body with rounded edges. Spherical stylus. Compliance 5cu. 6N purity copper coils. Coil resistance 14Ω. Recommended load impedance 100Ω minimum.
DL-103M (date ?) Silver finish to sides of the cartridge body Elliptical stylus Compliance 13cu Tracking force 1.4 +/- 0.2g mass 5.6g Coil resistance 40Ω
Gordan, your posts 115 and 122 contradict one another. Exactly which version of the 103 are you using?
An unloaded T-7883 transformer (that is loaded only by the nominal 47KΩ impedance of the disc input of your preamp) will present a load impedance of 494.5Ω to the cartridge. This will be fine for any version of the 103. The recommended 100Ω load is a minimum value.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry.d.hunt
sorry my mistake - i have a plain 103 (40 ohm coil resistance).
yes i was aware that unloaded haufe transformer present around 500 ohm to a cart and that's why i wanted to experiment with a resistor that would nominally decrease the load, i tried both with 40ohm and 100ohm load and both worked less succesful than unloaded. could be it's just a tuning of the whole system, the differences were quite obvious - unloaded more open, better hf resolution, better stereo.
My apologies, Gordan. I got caught up with a few things! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by anubisgrau
All I can say is that I get superb results with the A23, whether using my bog standard 103, my 103Pro or my 103SA, despite their different coil resistances. It's honestly not something that's ever concerned me.
The problem with attempting to ascertain what difference the 40Ω coil resistance of 103 makes, compared to the 14Ω of 103SA, when using the A23SUT, is that the cartridges sound quite different due to other issues (internal wiring and cartridge body material) that it's impossible to isolate the effects of each different parameter when changing one cartridge over for the other...
That's why so far I've never bothered thinking about it. I just fit whichever cartridge I want to the Jelco, balance it up, and enjoy the superb sounds which issue forth (A23 in place, regardless)! :gig:
Marco.
this evening i've assembled my new deck - stabi S/stogi S w benz micro MC gold and i can add this combo sounds stunning into unloaded haufe T7883 (the imp of MC gold is 20 ohm)!
it actually completely demolished my another deck with 103 (stabi 2/old stogi) in such a brutal manner that left with a conclusion that stogi arm is by far suboptimal for 103.
btw very surprised with BM MC gold. if there's a bargain, this is it
The production date for the 103M cartridges was 1983, they had a boron cantilever and special elliptical stylus. For 103 SA they started in 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by barry.d.hunt
Thanks King. I may write a piece on the Denon 103 series of cartridges for the Library, and to do a proper job I need to know that sort of information.
Any idea of the production date for the 103Pro ?
Regards
Hi Barry,
The production date for the 103 Pro was 1994, the same as the 103R. There was another one called 103 EN in 2006.
Best regards!
Hi,
I am reading this post all away, but nobody did answer the question of witch Haufe trannie is used in the A23 ???
Did anyone open the A23 and take a look for those trannies ?? :scratch:
Regards, Martien
The general consensus seems to be that the transformers to use are Haufe T-7883:Quote:
Originally Posted by mart10
http://audio.kubarth.com/rundfunk/index.cgi.
(Scroll all the way down to the section headed "Übertrager", then scroll down to "HAUFE T7883" and click on the 'pdf' icon.)
I have been shown the inside of an A23 SUT and have to say whilst the transformers used have the same style as those of Haufe, they are slightly larger in diameter and slightly taller. They were devoid of any markings.
When loaded by the standard 47KOhm of a MM phonostage, the A23s present an impedance loading of around 100Ohm to the cartridge. An unmodified T-7883 would not do this (it would present an impedance of around 470Ohm), so the transformers used in the A23 must contain loading resistors, which may explain why the transformer cans are larger. There was no sign of resistors present external to the transformers.
I can find no reference to a T-7833 and believe this to be a misprint.
I have used loaded Haufe T-7883 transformers with my Denon DL103C (40Ohm coil resistance) and they work well.
Trust this is of some help
Hi Barry,
I do understand not all, I mean loaded and unloaded...This is probebly my English. I do read, that you can't find anything on the outside of the transformers, ok. But you think there are resistors on the inside to match the primare 40 or 100 Ohm. I have a Matisse TubeAmp, with also transformers inside for MC carts, They say that it is 580 Ohm on the primaire side (the specs say 250 Ohm), so I have tright resistores into parallel of 220 Ohm to make it 150 Ohm, and 47 Ohm, to make a total of 43 Ohm. I hope/think the transformers are OK in the Matisse, but I look for a copple of T7883 than to see what is the best, because I want to have the best for my 103SA you see.
I have seen the data of the T7883. Do you know where to buy this transformers anyway ??
Thanks a lot for your replay here, and I let you know. :)
Regards, Martien
Hello Martien,
Sorry, I probably overloaded you with information.
The Haufe transformers have a 10:1 ratio, so when their secondary winding is terminated by the nominal 47kOhm of the moving magnet input stage of your preamp, the impedance presented to the cartridge at the primary winding will be 47000/(10*10) = 470Ohm.
The Denon 103C likes to 'see' an impedance of around 100Ohm, so to achieve this a 12kOhm resistor is wired across the secondary terminals of the transformer. A resistance of 12kOhm in parallel with the 47kOhm of the preamp will look like 9.56kOhm, or 95.6Ohm at the primary terminals.
The A23 SUT, when connected to a 47kOhm moving magnet input of a preamp presents the cartridge with an impedance of around 100Ohms. The step up ratio is 10:1, so there must be a loading resistor of ~12kOhm connected across the secondary windings. Looking inside the A23, there is no visable sign of these resistors, unless they are concealed inside the housing of the transformers.
Keith Aschenbrenner, the designer of the A23, obviously will not say what transformers he uses. Common belief is that they are made by Haufe and that they are type T-7883. Obviously Haufe will not say, as it is probably a matter of 'Commercial in Confidence'. The transformers inside the A23 look like a Haufe design, however they are larger than the T-7883 and are unmarked. They could be 7883s and use a larger housing to contain a loading resistor fitted across the secondary winding.
As far as I know Haufe are still in business. I bought my 7883s from a fellow AoS member, but suggest you try:
http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de
Hope this is a little clearer.
Regards
He Barry,
Yes that is clear enough, I do understand your great story here !!
You say the resistors are putting on the sec side (47K), I have solder them on the Prim.side of my Matisse input. Is there a reasen to put the resistors on the prim. or sec side anyway ??
But I will buy the T7883 to see if they are better, I don't know what is in the Matisse, there are also no markings, very little bleu ones (47k : 250/580 Ohm)
Many thanks Barry, I hope I can buy the 7883
Regards, Martien
Hi Barry,
I have some emails back from Deutsland, she has also send the same PDFfile included as your database in this AoS.
The cost is 40,35 a transformer, and sendcost of 18 euro.
But I hope this is the right transformer as in the A23 ??
Is there also any schematic of the wires included if you know :)
Thanks, Martien
Hi,
About my Matisse PreAmp, it has also nice transformers for MC, but I don't notting about them. The specs say 47K - 250 Ohm, a reviewer (Peter Willemswaard) say 580 Ohm. So I don't no what is true.
Do someone know, if that impedance is to be checkt with a multymeter or something?
Maybe the are very good if a have the right 40 Ohm for my 103SA
Well I have read enough about the very good combination 103 - A23 (T7883) so I will order these transformers to working out for the best posseble match !
Thanks boy's. :scratch:
Regards, Martien
Hello Martien,
Apologies for the slow reply. This has been due to you asking the seemingly innocent question: "is it better to fit a 12KOhm resistor across the secondary winding or to fit a 120Ohm resistor across the primary winding?"
Both will produce similar results of loading the cartridge with an impedance of ~110Ohm. (If one takes into account the resistance of the primary and secondary windings of the Haufe T-7883, the true result is 120.1Ohm in the case of loading the secondary winding, and 107.6Ohm in the case of loading the primary winding.)
My dilemma was "from a noise point of view, which loading scheme is better?" To answer this I had to resort to circuit theory, use Thévenin's theorem and the Nyquist formula for thermal noise. I won't go into the calculations here, as it would only annoy certain members of this forum. I shall simply state from a signal-to-noise point of view, loading the transformer on the secondary side is better.
The answer to your second question is much easier. Regarding the colour coding of the transformer wires, they are as follows:
red and green: primary winding
blue and white: secondary winding
(the red and the green wires are in phase)
black: transformer core
black/yellow: transformer housing
The black and black/yellow wires should both be connected to ground (at the preamplifier).
Many people have reported that the type and manufacturer of the loading resistors can have an audible effect. You might like to try several types and makes.
Trust this is of help
Regards
Hi Barry,
Thanks a lot for the replay.
The need and problems with the resistors was nessesary at the transformers inside the Matisse TubeAmp.
I am also thinking that the secondari is better to add the resistors, because of the inpackt of any noise.
But I have ordered 2x T7883 at Hause, Duitsland. I have read that with the T7883 you don't need any resistors, because the primaire is already 40 Ohm.
I am very curius about the 7883's, I hope and think the are a lot more better!
Next week I hope the arrived at my home in Holland, I can't wait...:rolleyes:
Thanks, I let you know when I have experiens with them.
Regards, Martien
Hi Barry,
I want not to be an "%&@#" boy. I don't know a good word in English.
I have read your story ones again and again. But there are a copple of things that I want to know. Have I read it good, that the transformers in the A23 are different of the T7883s ? You rote that they in the A23, are a little larger than the T7883s ? Because of resistors inside.
But the T7883 have also 40 or 100 Ohm primair.
And is the primairy of the T7883, 40 Ohm (specs) or 100 Ohm you sad.
Kind regards, Martien
Martien,Quote:
Originally Posted by mart10
I think you may have misunderstood the data sheet for the T7883. The 40Ohm you mention is the source impedance (i.e. the coil resistance of the cartridge; the DL103 has a coil-resistance of 40Ohm). The data sheet for the T7883 reads as follows:
Data sheet for the Haufe T-7883 transformer.
Übersetzungsverh. : 1:10 (transformer ratio 1:10)
Quellwiderstand : 40 Ω (source impedance 40Ω)
Lastwiderstand : 47 KΩ (load impedance 47KΩ)
Primarpegel : dBu 0.05V (Primary level 50mV maximum, this is a misprint: ignore the dBu)
Frequenzberich : 20 Hz 20kHz +/- 1dB ref. 1kHz (frequency response)
Klirrfaktor < : 1% (distortion factor)
Impedanz Z : 6,8 kOhm 1 kHz +/-30% an rt - gn Farbe / Pin
(Impedance 6.8kΩ at 1kHz +/-30% between red – green coloured leads. Must confess I don’t know what Haufe mean by this.)
Vormagnetisierung DC : 0mA
(DC magnetising current 0mA, i.e. don’t allow any DC to flow through the windings.)
Wicklungswiderstand : 11.5 Ω : 1.3 kΩ +/-10%
(coil/winding impedance (resistance), primary : secondary)
Schaltbild
Primary winding: rt – gn (red – green)
Secondary winding bl – ws (blue – white)
Core sw (black)
Casing ge/sw (yellow/black)
I said that it is generally thought that the A23 uses Haufe T7883 transformers, but nobody can confirm this. The transformers fitted inside the A23 look like Haufe designs but are unmarked and are physically larger, both in diameter and height than the 7883. I cannot say catagorically that 7883s are used, however I have used 7883s with my Denon 103 and they work very well. I should add that the secondary windings are loaded with 12KOhm metal film resistors, so as to present the cartridge with an impedance of ~110Ohm.Quote:
But there are a couple of things that I want to know. Have I read it good, that the transformers in the A23 are different of the T7883s ?
Unless the secondary winding is loaded with an additional shunt resistance, the primary winding will present an impedance of ~495Ohm to the cartridge. The Denon 103 is designed to work into an impedance of ~100Ohm. To achieve this, you need to load the secondary winding (the blue and white wires) with a 12KOhm resistor.Quote:
And is the primairy of the T7883, 40 Ohm (specs) or 100 Ohm you said?
The impedance of the primary depends on the overall loading placed on the secondary winding. The primary is not 40 Ohm, for reasons explained above.
Trust this makes things a little clearer.
Regards
Hi Barry,
Its clear for me now.
The A23 is different from the T7883 transformers.
The trannies of A23 are larger, maybe for resistors on the inside, so the primary of the A23 is already +/- 100Ohm, good for the DL-103.
The T7883s need resistors (12k) on the secondary (47k), to make the primary also about +/- 100Ohm
However I hope that the sound performance of the T7883 is the same as the A23 ?? :scratch:
Best regards, Martien
Hi Martien,
I hope so, too, so do let us know. Plenty of folks, I'm sure, will be interested in the outcome :)
Marco.
Hi,
I was not 100% shure about the T7883s, so I canseld the order.
Today I buy a A23 at the importer in Holland. The A23 was availlable, so I did play 2 ours already with the A23.
My first conclusion is, more detail, more real tone, more air, greater stage, and a bit to much high tones (crunch?), but I know, plenty of ours to play-in. :)
I am happy with it, its more money than only the T7883, but I trust it more. I let you know after a few weeks.
Regards, Martien
Hi,
Well I have play 4 ours now, and the A23 is getting better and better.
My Matisse Pre-Amp has little MC step-up trannies inside, I know notting about them, but they playing alright, I thought.
But the new A23, is playing fantastic. Also the playcement of every instrument and voices are much better and precise. Also dynamic is much better. Also you here things, what you don't know if it was there, maybe you here it before, but now its more real with better definition.
All the difference tone-colours are much more and real, very nice !!
It is incredeble the difference like before, with the other MC step-up trannies.
And not forget, it is the 103SA that all the things pick-up from the record !!
It is right, when you have an 103, you need also the A23 !! :doh:
To-night, I here no harsh, like yesterday, maybe the power from the net (230V) was better, or play-in of the A23.
I have one question, now I have the IC of the CD-drive on the A23 and the PreAmp, witch IC I have to buy for the definetive connection of the A23 ?? Thanks !
Kind regards, Martien
I am currently listening to the DL 103 pro with the Aesthetix Rhea Signature with a load of 250 Ohm. What made a big difference was to replace a light headshell with a heavy AT LH18 which really made it sung in the ortofon RS 309
Hi Philippe,
Welcome to The Art of Sound. Perhaps you wouldn't mind going over to the Welcome section & introducing yourself to the members?
If you start a new thread there, it would be a good way to tell folks a little about yourself, your system & your tastes in music.
Maybe see you over there?
Cheers
considering that haufe claims T890 is 1:10 SUT with 40 ohm primary DCR and 35kohm secondary, there's obviously something wrong with this calculation, the ratio is either much higher (more than 1:20) or DCR measurements are not correct..... anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Historicus
29.6 if my calculation is correct
yes if the above data is correct which is not.... the mistery is solved, these are the loaded impedances, the real coil impedances with T890 are 9 and 900 ohm, which gives 1:10.
alles klar, apologies for confusion
Since the secondary winding will carry a lower (one tenth) current than the primary winding, it is likely to use wire of a smaller gauge than that used for the primary winding. It will therefore have a higher resistance per unit length.
The DC resistance (Gleichstromwiderstand) for the Haufe T 890 is 9.1Ω for the primary winding and 900Ω for the secondary winding. The ratio is ~ 1:100, whereas the turns-ratio or transformer ratio (Űbersetzungsverhältnis) is 1:10.
Only if the same gauge wire is used for both windings, will the turns-ratio be the same as the ratio of the winding DC resistance.
If one looks at the effective (or apparent) impedance of the windings (Scheinwiderstände), they are ~ 2 700Ω for the primary and 250 000Ω for the secondary. The ratio of the two is 92.6, implying a turns-ratio of √92.6 = 9.6, that is ~ 10 as expected.