I wouldn't so much describe what's going on here as arguement, more like discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiman
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I wouldn't so much describe what's going on here as arguement, more like discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiman
Yup, Chris, but I suspect that there's a bit of a language barrier thing going on. Thaiman, what's your first name, mate? :)
Marco.
It is James decision as forum owner if he wants to pull the plug. What may well upset some people is that he did it with very little warning. A few days would have ensured that people - like myself - who can't always check in through the day would have had enough warning to save important PM details - especially where equipment / software was in the process of changing hands.
Point taken :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Well I think it's sad that the Wam has gone, but entirely understandable given how things have played out ... the Wam was always a multi-faceted place, with generally good manners (barring the tedious cable wars) on the main hifi forums, contrasted by often outrageous behavior on the non-hifi sections, which TBH I mainly steered clear of.
I heard it described once as a raucous pub with a hifi forum attached, that is certainly what it had become by the time I joined in 2008 or so. The 'anti' nature of the place never bothered me as it was more than made up for by the generosity of the positive contributors (who were often the same people, in fact, posting differently in different sub-forums).
I made some great friends there and attended my share of bakeoffs/Scalford events that manged to be both fun and highly educational at the same time.
If James and the mods are reading I'd very much like to than them for creating and sustaining that environment. Whatever feelings are going on for them right now, and whatever nonsense they've been subjected to, the vast majority of wammers I'm sure feel nothing but sympathy and gratitude.
I've been more than an occasional visitor here on AoS of late - the laid-back feel is quite to my taste in contrast to some other places - and it's nice to see some familiar usernames too - and it looks like my visits will be even more regular from now on.
We met at the show I do believe, I am the one that keep poping in and admire your retro speakers, peeps know me as OB1 as my real name is few foot long :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
There was no language barrier coming from your room at Scalford this year - a few bleeding ears, maybe! ;) Unless I got the wrong guy! It was a busy day! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiman
Quality!Quote:
Originally Posted by technobear
Ok guys, having read through this thread, and the concurrent one on pfm, I have an inkling now as to the likely real situation that exists.
It appears that James has been under threat recently from litigation by certain parties, due to issues of potential libel, to the extent that Wigwam may have been closed down, and so that alone would've been causing some concern.
However, as if that wasn't enough, it was compounded by a contentious and (apparently) highly volatile thread about Google and the possible introduction of a swear filter, which aggravated certain people, and the whole thing got out of hand.
That's my (rather limited) précis of the situation, and I will make no further comment, as it's got nothing to do with AoS or me. But my gut feeling is that James will only have pulled the plug temporarily in order to get some breathing space and collate his thoughts about what to do in the long term, and so I fully believe that Wigwam will be back sooner rather than later.
He may also be using the opportunity to send a message to certain people to 'wake up and smell the coffee' and using the shock treatment of temporarily removing their 'playground', with the threat of it being permanent, in order to 'refocus' a few minds..... I remember that last year James did a similar thing when he mentioned that he was going to sell Wigwam, because it was all becoming too much, and look what happened then.
So no, I'm almost certain that Wigwam will be back, but there will likely be some significant changes, and James may indeed distance himself more from the day to day running of the forum, which in terms of the impact it was making on his personal life, may not be a bad thing. I wish him the best in whatever he decides.
The Scalford Hall show was mentioned, and I will state now that in the unlikely event of the plug being pulled on Wigwam permanently, and/or James not wanting to take on the responsibility of running the event in future, I would be happy to take it on, and run the show the way that Wammers (since it was mainly their event) wanted. It would certainly be organised sympathetically to the requirements of their members and not lose the fun factor and camaraderie which made it special.
Therefore, if or when James decides to pull out of the scene, then I will ensure that the Scalford show will NOT die - you have my promise on that. However, let's not jump the gun, and simply allow the dust to settle on recent events on Wigwam and see how things develop in due course, and ascertain the best way of moving things forward in everyone's interests.
Basically, AoS and me are here to help if necessary! :cool:
Marco.
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I think the dust needs to settle a bit.
Good man Marco!
Hi mate, yup I remember you now! How's it going? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiman
Yes you did seem rather 'taken' with the old Celests! :eyebrows:
Marco.
No problem, Frank. You know the point I was making, but your eloquently expressed thoughts, as usual, are always welcomed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Effem
Any Wammers not already using pfm as their temporary (or permanent) home are very welcome to post here, however of course 'keyboard warriors', or those with unwanted agendas, will be given short shrift.
One comment I read from Robert on pfm, which I totally agree with is this:
Although AoS isn't my income stream, the reason why here and pfm work so well is because Tony and I have the time to do the job properly; and crucially, we have a very good team to help us with the process. I can say that especially of here. Once a forum gets beyond having a certain amount of members and activity level, it's impossible to run the site yourself on a part-time basis, and do the job properly, as eventually it will all come crashing down around you.Quote:
The time and workload issue should be do-able with a big enough and committed moderation team. I can see issues where a forum owner is running a busy forum as a hobby, ie they are also doing a full time day job. In that situation it would surely make sense to delegate quite heavily. The situation is different I think were the forum is your job and income stream. In a way I think that's way pfm works well - Admin have time to run the place and the mods share the remainder of the load.
Therefore, if Wigwam is to survive in the long-term, then I think that James must delegate and rely on his team more, and subsequently take more of a back seat, as I know all too well that the pressures of trying to keep everyone happy, and take a busy forum in the direction you want, can be very challenging and all-consuming.
Marco.
to be honest ...they had lost the plot a while ago
the language used at time by some members was reprehensable...an for the mods to just sit there and do nothing ...
you need strong mods ...not affraid to upset mates
the other thing about wam was that ...if you upset a clique ..you were subject to bullying
I was banned from wam .....I suspect for saying just that ...but as james refused to tell me why he banned me ..... so I can't be absolutely certain.
As to scalford ...most if not all wammers are on other forums ...should not be to hard to pick up the peices if theres a will ...
+1 :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ursus262
My suggestion would be to make this thread or a special thread as a contact wall, like they have after all disasters. There seem to be people wandering around here and at PFM looking for people who were buying their gear, people who paid, etc, just generally people who have lost PM and contact information. That is the main problem as I see it.
Something like "Blue Eyes searching for Cuddly Bunny, I miss you, and where is my bloody CD player" :)
That's the main problem as I see it too, Richard. So what would you suggest as the best way of making this thread a "contact wall", as you call it? :)
Marco.
You've still got one here buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by wee tam
Public information announcement from James via yer PFM:
"Poor Tony, he now has you to deal with.
Gent's reading this thread this morning and the emails you have all sent really has been quite emotional frankly. That you all support and understand my decision is really quite fantastic.
I know that several people have unfinished business on the classifieds. I will open the forum this evening for the whole evening so that people can get messages to and from each other. Include phone numbers and email addresses in your PMs, as the PM content is also sent via email. That way you should all be able to conclude your business.
Having had a really nice day yesterday, playing cricket in the Sunshine and enjoying a few beers with friends and now having slept on this decision, I feel I need to put a time limit on what is going to happen. I am going to be working away for much of this week, and have a busy weekend ahead, so I think next Monday will be when you hear from me again. I need time to consider what to do.
As I own the commercial rights to the Scalford show I guess many of you will be worried about that. I really want to make sure Scalford happens next year. I am sure some of you will be keen to make it happen, rest assured if the forum closes permanently I think we can still make Scalford go ahead.
I think leaving the forum closed for a while for us all to have a good think, without the distractions of forum life will be a good thing for everyone.
As some have mentioned here, it's boisterous nature has been both the secret of it's success and the reason for it's downfall.
There have been plenty of good ideas here as to how we can move on, I will take them all on board and give them due consideration. Deep down I don't want the wigwam to die like this, but something had to give and for it to continue some things will need to change. What and how, I am not sure yet. But I am thinking about it carefully and I will be missing it's social side as much as the rest of you over the coming days..
We do have a Face book community at https://www.facebook.com/pages/HiFiW...80770915279077
And I am sure the polite and courteous ones of you will be welcome here.
I'll speak to you soon. Phoenix rising from the ashes emoticon anyone? Let's hope so.
Thanks chaps. Seriously restored my faith in the Interwebs.
James."
So there you go.
Bloody Prima Donna, so it was all about needing people to say they love him :lol::ner:
Not entirely true Chris that I have sour grapes, more a case of disappointment of what could have been had it been managed properly - I left of my own free will because I had that choice. I also see the benefits too, how else would we have met and had some cracking good bakeoffs?Quote:
Originally Posted by technobear
If I were to be completely honest now, it was finding AoS that has also thrown my time at WW into very sharp contrast because there is a deep foundation laid here how the forum operates and how the membership conducts themselves. I have not seen any dual standards, back-biting, bullying or petty squabbles and yes there has been hot topics and questions about my own points of view, but always resolved with great courtesy and respect. Maybe had I not found AoS I could have just let it lie.
Maybe I am naive to believe that in my utopian world we can huddle together in our microcosm and chew the fat, discuss and pass on experiences and great tips about our little (expensive) passion and that perhaps I lavished too much expectations on WW being just that without sinking down to where it did. My good lady wife often said to me that I am not wrong for hoping that forum would be a gathering place for like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but she believed a good portion of the membership were there simply on an ego trip looking for an argument and the "hi-fi" part was pretty much secondary. She was not wrong either.
Nice one, Joe. That's pretty much how I thought the situation would be, and so good news for all Wammers and Scalford show goers :)
James has fired his shot across the bow, and so hopefully will have achieved the intended effect!
When Wigwam is back, let's hope that all those who took it for granted and selfishly used it as their own private playground, have a right good look in the mirror and change their behaviour, as if that crap happens again, I think it will be the final straw that broke the camel's back.......
Marco.
Looks like wigwam will be back but perhaps a bit different to the past
I am sure there will be a way forward for people and they can be part of wigwam again
I'll second those sentiments ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Effem
Sorry this is wishful thinking, IMO obviously, but that many people don't change overnight. They were there because that is the way they wanted it. For a few days, maybe a week they will all pussy foot around. But someone will arrive and ask a silly newby question, or someone will ask about cable, or Jerry will find a new rave, and the pack mentality will surface again.Quote:
Originally Posted by John
A forum is its members, and the leader of the pack is James, and it is his mentality as well. So if he wants less work he should just let it self regulate and let the people behave how they want and normal people will stay well clear of it. Plus the added advantage of it keeps them away from the rest of us.
I am not sure how it will change Richard and agree its hard to change overnight but its possible if their is a will to change; otherwise the mistakes from the past will come back to haunt
and I think its healthy to have very different forums
I always knew wigwam was not really for me but alot of people like it for good or bad.
I guess like all changes some will go with some will rebel and some will leave
I think the comments about him owning "the commercial rights" to Scalford is very pertinent. It points to the direction he wants to take it. I think he will find that apart from the existing goodwill, the balance sheet will be empty. Anyone can do one any time they want to and all Wigwam members and owner can do is try to insult it and put it down as much as they can.
Scalford is a long way for me, too, but I have committed to going next year anyway.
Richard, give it a rest. You are obviously taking great delight in this situation but no-one could ever call you an impartial observer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew
I think that Richard's comment is a pertinent one, although if he's honest, I'm sure that, given the history between WW and him, he'll not have been too unhappy at recent events....
However, I have zero interest in hosting the contents of people's grudges, so I'm sure that Richard will respect my wishes for him to leave it there and concentrate on other things that are more constructive.
As an aside, I also found James' comment about having the commercial rights for the show interesting, but that would of course only be for the 'Pie Show', as it's known, in its current format.
There is nothing to stop anyone else doing the same thing at a different venue, under another name. We've had plans for a while for AoS to do its own show/bake-off event, and that will be definitely be happening in the near future, and the venue will be, as suggested, somewhere in the Midlands.
However, in the meantime, we will continue to support Wigwam in ensuring that the much loved 'Pie Show' takes place again next year! :cool:
Marco.
Nor are you or nor is anyone in this conversation. I am being picked out by you because probably my comments hit the target too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by montesquieu
Any way I will do as requested and just agree with Effem and Zanash posts. Which have been a lot more critical than mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Fwiw i agree with you
I'm sure James' reference to the 'commercial rights' pertains to the fact that Chestergroup gave them up, on paper, no more no less.
Indeed, Simon.
But it also shows that he's keen to keep the Pie show going, regardless if Wigwam continues to exist or not, which James is quite right to do. As I've said, I'm sure that both of the above will be the case, albeit with some significant (and in my opinion long overdue) changes taking place at the latter.
....and how some of the 'natives' react to those changes, will I believe determine the long-term future of Wigwam.
Marco.
P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts :)
Oooh ecky thump!
Tried to log on this morning, and no Wam.
Crikey, bit of a surprise but not totally unexpected I guess.
It was/is an interesting place full of diverse characters, just like real life, some get on and some don't.
I will miss it while it's not online.
I hope some sort 'Pie show' can go ahead, as my Dad and I always look forward to showing something affordable.
James and the mods if you are listening, thank you for the fun, let there be some more.
:)
I have finished with my own tirade Richard and after I calmed down overnight I have reduced it down to a mere "disappointment" level because as you will probably agree, undoing that which has been done isn't possible - no matter how hard any of us try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew
My view now is QUE SERA, SERA, so if James has had an enforced reality check and is able to move on, then who am I to question that? By the way, if I met him today I would still be as friendly with him despite our differences.
Without meaning to be pedantic, as an Italian, I consider it my duty to correct you. The saying that you're striving for, Frank, is in fact: 'Che sarą, sarą'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Effem
And there endeth the lesson... ;)
Marco.
Obliged and indebted Sir :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hi MarcoQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
When i spoke to you on the phone , you didn't sound very Italian to me lol
Do they say "see you Jimmy" in Italy ? :)
Lol! That's 'cos I was born in Glasgow, but then you didn't hear me speak Italian ;)
However, Scottish accents are abound in parts of the town where my family come from in Tuscany, as they're full of folk who own chip-shops, restaurants and cafes in Scotland, but whose roots are most definitely 100% Italian. I come under that category.
It's rather like Indian or Pakistani people who were born in the UK - they simply take on the accent of their home town or area, when speaking English, but when speaking their mother tongue, sound very much like an Indian or Pakistani! :)
Marco.
I remember a discussion I had about this a long time ago. Some one said it was from the Latin, but from my Latin I did up to 13 tears old it doesn't quite add up. The story is it came from an Italian style film and was also a song in English by Doris Day. The people who wrote the English version of the song just did it phonetically, which in fact makes it nearer to Spanish, but it is not a Spanish saying, the nearest would be "lo que serį, serį". So once again it came about due to the ignorance of the English for any other language than English. Because if left in the Italian English people would say ch as in cheese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I have no avatar, which is a fair reflection of my lack of personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Originally Posted by Marco
P.S How about including an avatar on your profile, which is relevant to you? We like avatars on AoS, as they help portray the personality of the person behind the posts
Oh blimey, I think I need to change mine then:eek:.
Yup, everone here knows that I am completely quackers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yes i know Marco , just trying to lighten the mood a little :) Tuscany looks beautiful , my only visit to Italy was a week in Rome , very memorable place :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hmm only just figured out how to do that!Quote:
Originally Posted by freefallrob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bender_(Futurama)Quote:
Originally Posted by freefallrob
Actually having read the above, it seems fine...:lol:
A large majority of them came from prisoners of war who didn't want to go back home, or met a Scottish lass while working on the farms in Scotland, where most of the Italian prisoners were sent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Can you imagine a poor young Scottish farmers daughter being confronted by an Italian lad with full balls and rampant testerone :eek:
Hi Richard,
There is of course no indisputably correct answer for this, as it's more folklore than fact, and so largely open for individual interpretation, but in my opinion your answer is probably as correct as it gets.Quote:
The story is it came from an Italian style film and was also a song in English by Doris Day.
Indeed, if you were in Italy and said to someone: "Que Sera, Sera", or another version of that which was nothing like the commonly known phrase of 'Che sarą, sarą', they'd just look at you, as if you were daft! ;)
Indeed. 'Che', in Italian, is simply pronounced as we do the letter 'k' :)Quote:
The people who wrote the English version of the song just did it phonetically, which in fact makes it nearer to Spanish, but it is not a Spanish saying, the nearest would be "lo que serį, serį". So once again it came about due to the ignorance of the English for any other language than English. Because if left in the Italian English people would say ch as in cheese.
Marco.
That is true. Also, many Italians fled Italy, during the depression of the 1930s, such as my granddad, to try and start a new life in Britain, where things were much better, and so started up their own businesses, many of which were cafes and chip-shops. That is where my roots come from.Quote:
A large majority of them came from prisoners of war who didn't want to go back home, or met a Scottish lass while working on the farms in Scotland, where most of the Italian prisoners were sent.
Hahaha... Indeed - and I bet most would've loved it!! :eyebrows:Quote:
Can you imagine a poor young Scottish farmers daughter being confronted by an Italian lad with full balls and rampant testerone :eek:
Marco.