Can SE amps play Rage Against The Machine

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Originally Posted by RothwellAudio

Maybe there are SETs that will do it and I just haven't experienced them, but I would advise the OP to hear for himself before parting with any cash.

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Trust me, Andrew, there are, but the best ones are neither commercially available, nor cheap. As a general rule of thumb, if you want top-notch performance, I'd avoid buying a valve amp (SET or P/P), built outside of China, that costs under £5k.

Marco.

rock usually likes a bit of grunt, although my speakers do a reasonable job. they are fairly fast tho

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Originally Posted by Macca

In theory you can do it with very sensitive speakers, which is what everyone seems to be saying. I've got a low power valve amp and use it with 96db efficiency speakers but it will not go to the SPL I require for rock music without getting a little 'messy'

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It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!;)

You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!;)

You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.

Marco.

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Well my room is a factor in that I agree. I've no idea how large Gaz's room is.

The limiting factor in my room is the amplifier's power output and nothing to do with the quality of the parts.

The Edingdales are 94db efficient, with an easy 8 Ohm load.
Very easy to drive, and even with a "mighty" 8 or 9 watts on tap (depends on how you measure it) I cant get the volume past 10 o clock without pictureframes and a wall mounted acoustic guitar shaking themselves to bits.

So plenty volume, but not just volume but deep tight TUNEFUL bass.
The Edingdales go down to low 30's Hz and with an amp where the damping factor matches its deep and TIGHT.

My amp was designed specifically for my speakers,
so the SET amp/speaker voodoo thing is as good as it can be I guess.
The amp is probably not a typical SET amp to be fair, aside Nick Gorhams technical wizardry the solid state regulation circuits are the product of the guys over at Audio Talk (DIY forum) getting their collective guru heads together and coming up with the circuit.
State of the art and better than probably most commercial solutions.
As Nick said, He wanted to see what happened when he surrounded SET with solid state, and he was "pleased" how the amp turned out.
The transformers were the largest part of the cost, handwound, long waiting time and not cheap.

Anyway,
the point of all that was to go back to my earlier point:
SET amps need a bit of extra thought to get them to show what they really can do and as Marco says, it ain't cheap to do it right.
But model your system around that, the speaker choice and don't run the system in an exhibition hall and there's real magic there...trousers flapping, driving deep, tight low end...great for rock. :)
Get the speakers right and a SET amp will shift air as good as anything else.

My rooms not massive, but not tiny either...about 5 x 4 I think.
As with most questions Hifi related there's no one single answer, except...it depends.

Valve choice can make a difference to, had 3 different types of 300B in my amp now and unfortunately you get what you pay for with those too.

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Originally Posted by Marco

It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!;)

You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.

Marco.

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I agree ie the cost aspect, :) and yes, in my Hibrid single ended amps, they use a lot of semiconductor circuitry to control "All aspects of the valve, so that it is held rock steady, even the heater circuits are unique, in that they do not use conventional regulators, but a form of single ended power amps of their own! I produced these amps over 15 years ago now, and although there are probably some things I may have done diffrently, they're sonic performance Always make me smile, when I get chance to realy listen to them...:)

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Originally Posted by Marco

"Quite well" is an understatement, however, as you well know, their design is far from conventional, with them featuring the rather novel solid-state aspect of things. Also, if someone wanted a pair of monos built today, how much would you be asking, something like £15 grand?

That would be out of most people's price range, although they'd be getting a pair of amps, which if produced, say, by someone such as AudioNote, would retail for probably £50k! And yours would almost certainly sound better.

My point being, however, (and indeed as Gaz has also said, which I know you too will agree with) is that the best valve amps, either SET or push-pull, simply don't come cheap, as you can't get away with cutting corners, like you can with some SS amps.

Ultimately, everything revolves around the size and quality of the transformers, and in general, good valve amps are also more labour intensive to build, especially those that are hardwired, point to point! :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by anthonyTD

I agree ie the cost aspect, :) and yes, in my Hibrid single ended amps, they use a lot of semiconductor circuitry to control "All aspects of the valve, so that it is held rock steady, even the heater circuits are unique, in that they do not use conventional regulators, but a form of single ended power amps of their own! I produced these amps over 15 years ago now, and although there are probably some things I may have done diffrently, they're sonic performance Always make me smile, when I get chance to realy listen to them...:)

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Absolutely.
Regulation and power supply makes all the difference in hifi generally, but particularly with SET amps.

Anthony's another one of the few (like Nick) who really knows his valve onions, be interesting to compare notes sometime.

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Originally Posted by Macca

The limiting factor in my room is the amplifier's power output and nothing to do with the quality of the parts.

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Or, your room's too big for any [low-powered] SET amp to 'drive', regardless of the speakers used. However, that's not the fault of the amp; simply that you're using it in the wrong room.

Gary's set up, in that respect, ably demonstrates that a SET valve amp can 'boogie' with the best of them, given half a chance!

TBH, if you look at things differently, and more positively, getting a SET valve amp forces you to be more disciplined than usual about room and speaker matching, both of which are crucial to obtaining a good sound, so it could be argued that folk who own such gear will, for that reason, potentially have better sounding systems than most;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Or, your room's too big for any low-powered SET amp to 'drive', regardless of the speakers used. However, that's not the fault of the amp; simply that you're using it in the wrong room.

Gary's set up, in that respect, ably demonstrates that a SET valve amp can 'boogie' with the best of them, given the chance!

TBH, if you look at things differently, and more positively, getting a SET valve amp forces you to be more disciplined than usual about room and speaker matching, both of which are crucial to obtaining a good sound, so it could be argued that folk who own such gear will, for that reason, potentially have better sounding systems than most;)

Marco.

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What I suppose I was trying to say was I like the sound of SET amps but in my room I would need to use horns to get the clean levels I want and I don't like horns unless they are multi way like Speedy Steve's. And having a multi-way horn array like that constructed is out of my league.


They do have a magic to them that no other type of amplifier has.

That's fairy muff :)

Marco.