Indeed, Andrew. No doubt the stock platter can be tweaked with some success, but quite frankly there's no comparison between it and the MN one, as the sonic improvements you describe with Mike's platter are FAR from subtle! :)
Marco.
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Indeed, Andrew. No doubt the stock platter can be tweaked with some success, but quite frankly there's no comparison between it and the MN one, as the sonic improvements you describe with Mike's platter are FAR from subtle! :)
Marco.
Martin, my apologies without reservations, if I offended through my perception of your MN platter, I now understand what has happened and it was brave of you to trail blaze with the proto type platter. No doubt if wasn't any good back it would have gone to Sydney :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
The trouble with the written word from afar is there is no face to face or body language in play and therefore the written word, if not skillfully used, can be misconstrued at worst as an attack or as a point of dismissal... the widgets available here go part of the way to convey a writers thoughts at the time of writing, ie: :):) for me at this moment and previously :)
I don't want to be misunderstood regarding my stance on the MN platter, its merely a visual thing for me and even that is flawed as I have yet to actually see and touched one. What I don't negate is the platters performance.
The stock platter I use was raised a fraction, possibly by 2mm, when I installed the MN bearing and I'm given to understand that this is normal.
Your reviews are good and worthy and don't have the taint of possible advertising revenue loss should your review be a negative one, I believe it does happen?
Ron :cocktail:
I don't doubt for one minute what you say is not correct, I'm just going through a, 'what if I do this or that' stage at the moment. I still wish Mike would come up with a sub and outer platter such as Thorens, Linn and so on. The inner platter would have to be larger to accommodate the rotars underneath, and the outer would provide some form of fly wheel effect (not necessarily required with a DD such as my 1210) but to me it would be visually more apealing... just think of all the fun I could have polishing the outer rim to a mirror finish as per my LP12 :eyebrows::rolleyes::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Marco, I'm befuddled here mate, do you not have a MN strengthening plate in conjunction with your MN copper platter, if this is the case then why not?:scratch:
Off to do a bit of metal bashing (not the heavy stuff)
Ron:hmm:
Hi Ron,
I didn't go for the base plate because I wanted to assess its effect in isolation, over and above the effect of the MN platter, so if people ask me what it does, I can say :)
I'll do the comparison tomorrow at Martin's when we swap T/Ts, using the same MN platter, which should be interesting.
If the base plate makes a noticeable improvement, I'll order one from Mike. Martin will also get the chance to ascertain whether the copper top plate on my platter makes a worthwhile sonic improvement.
Lots of Techy and T/T shenanigans tomorrow, so it should be fun! :cool:
Marco.
This is one write up I can't wait to read. It would be good if both you and Martin did seperate reviews without recourse to the other's notes and impressions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I paid a 'sticky beek' visit to the holistic otherworld today without the aide of a medium :lol: and the boss man was mightly pleased that Hi Fi World had given an enthusiastic okay to the TS bearing and PSU. See FEB 2011 page 45 where DP replied to Michael Moore's letter. I wonder if that was THE Michael Moore who had made searching films of the George W Bush administration years and was now turning his attention towards audiophilia? By the way what happened to the holistic approach? :scratch:
Ron :confused:
The one consideration I have to be aware of in maching the platter is the fact that some people (like Marco) do not have my Bearing Base Plate. (which raises the whole assembly up by 6mm). Thus there is a compromise between providing a platter to suit those who do not currently have a Bearing Base Plate, and those who may buy one later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
If I make the peripheral skirt to deep, then for those who have not fitted my Bearing Base Plate; the skirt will fowl on the three raised posts (3.5mm high) which sit around the bottom lip of the chassis, and which serve to locate the large black cover (which cannot be used with my Platters anyhow!).
I could make the skirt even deeper, but this would require that the three locating posts be removed. I do try to get as close as possible to the ideal, but there will always be people who seem to confuse excellent sonic improvements with sexy looks, which frankly totally confounds me!!
I am striving to provide an upgrade path which is viable for the average person who does not have the 'readies' to procure the whole set of upgrades at the one time, as some people are able to do! Rather to progessively upgrade from Bearing and or Base plate to platter to copper arm board.
As Martin advises, his platter was one of the earlier ones where I was testing the range over which I could savely set the machining parrameters.
I have now fixed on a set of dimensions which I believe will suit most circumstances.
Mick, it was probably me that triggered your response about looks and function and its a fair point mate. But some of us have our systems, including record player, in our living area space we share with wifey the majority of whom would wishfully want you to park your gear in the car port or the sanctity of a man's shed :eek: so somewhere along the way, for domestic harmony's sake the look of equipment has to be considered, and I am well aware of the prob this gives you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_New
I mean MartinT has your proto type platter and it serves him well but in his drive way he has a beaut looking BMW and would probably not be happy driving a ute :lol: Good looks and function can go together I think so I urge you not to be confounded by someone who likes the two to go together. Don't read me wrong here I AM NOT KNOCKING YOUR PLATTER as testimony from others here confirms that its a goody and I believe them and I myself am considering the whole package. A two part platter, I believe, does prevent ringing if done properly and more than likely does away with the need for the outer rubber band that is used? It gives me cause for mirth that there are some who are very voluable about their dislike of 'rubber band' drive fruit box turntables yet the Tekko sits in a vulcanised rubber bonsai tray which, at a later day, can have a rubber band around the platter. I mean whats wrong with rubber, it helps keep unwanted pregnancy in check:rolleyes:;):)
Respect for your engineering skills, buy ya a beer when I'm in Sydney next :glug:
Ron
Just a few quick questions! The sorbothane "bath" is nearing completion. I've produced a paper prototype ready to be fabricated in 3mm homocopolymer next week! The whole idea of the "bath" is to coat the innards of the 1210 with a 2-3mm layer of sorbothane to stop vibration getting to the PCB. Now this may prove difficult for those of us who have a MN bearing, baseplate etc but thats another weeks problem :eyebrows:. I got round to thinking that if i'm going to "carpet" the innards of the 1210 in sorbothane it also gives me an ideal chance to include a couple of very thin layers of adhesive aluminium in there as well to try and increase the protection of RFI & MFI, the sorbothane obviously hopefully vibration. My thoughts being to have one layer of aluminium on the underside of the sorbothane and then another layer ontop. Then i got round to thinking if you have the MN platter you have a massive rotating platter protecting the PCB to some extent against RFI and MFI. Then this got me wondering what type of metal (alloy) the 1210's PCB is mounted onto:scratch: Can anyone answer this question for me:scratch:
I think the sorbothane will come in 2 flavours. One for the stock 1210 and then one for the 1210's which have various MN modifications. The "footprint" of the sorbothane carpet will be radically different bewteen the two machines.
Secondly, and this is a question for Mike New, Mike, how much space is left in the bearing pit once your bearing is installed:scratch: I was wondering if we could get a small piece of sorbothane in there to minimise vibration getting to the bearing?? In your opinion do you think its worth doing :scratch:
Marco and I performed the comparison yesterday: his production MN copper/aluminium composite platter versus my prototype aluminium/brass insert platter on my turntable. The only other variable is that we used Marco's Blue Horizon mat with his platter and my Achromat with my platter (my platter has Vaseline on its surface and we thought it best to keep to the mats best optimised to the platters).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
One observation: Mike New's production platter sits a little lower compared with mine, giving my arm some welcome vertical travel to accommodate different cartridges. This wasn't a problem for the Dynavector 20X2L used for testing.
The summary is short and sweet: Marco, Hugo and I struggled to hear a difference and could not reliably tell the platters apart. To all intents and purposes, they sounded so close to each other that the difference was immaterial.
Andrew:Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
It is my judgment that any layer (2-3mm) of sorbothane or silicone inside the cast alluminium chassis will not contribute greatly to any vibration damping, since the effective stiffness of the casting although low, would overcome any damping afforded by just 2-3 mm of material, you would require a great deal more.
Before perusing alternatives, I will respond to you question about the bearing.
There is about 1.5mm clearance at the bottom of my bearing.
I do however think that perhaps you are approaching the project from the wrong justification point of view. Any affect of vibration on the PCB will be absolutely minimal, it is a reasonably stiff well assembled component, with few capacitors which could be affected; mainly digital chips and resistors. What we should be considering is the affects of the acoustic feedback from the listening environment and the internal scrambling of the acoustics at the cartridge; due to less that ideal dampening of the chassis system as a whole.
My Bearing Base Plate does a lot to improve on the latter, however consideration of the following should further improve the acoustic value of my upgrades.
Rather, what we should be looking at doing, is to actually bond, or form a sorbothane blanket, between the alluminium chassis and the heavy cast composite centre-piece. Which is what I have just recently done on my new MK6. This absolutely binds the two components together as a rigid but compliant structure. Which then sits in the excellently designed and well fitting rubber Base.
This approach was suggested by Yves in Canada about 7months ago, I believe he used a silicone compound and used the very thin “cling wrap” in order to prevent the silicone from adhering to the chassis. Thus forming a separate but accurately matching blanket between the two. If you are reading this Yves you might respond and include your images again.
The object of the centre-piece, I believe, was to effect a dampening and stiffening of the chassis. However, in fact the centre-piece is not a particularly good fit/match to the alluminium chassis and therefore seems to do nothing in performing its intended function.
For those folks who have purchased my Bearing Base Plate, and have therefore drilled clearance holes into the centre-piece for the nuts, then you could take this path to the final ultimate upgrade (at little cost) by bonding the chassis and centre-piece together as a whole, as I have done.
Doing so does not detract from access to the wiring. However it does preclude easy access to the three nuts, which secure the arm board.
Especially if you are still using the original arm assembly. For this reason I have produced a tapered nut which permanently fits into the three tapered holes from underneath. This allows the very easy and convenient removal of the arm from the top of the unit if you are using a replacement arm and board.
I can provide additional info/advice for those who are interested.
MIKE!
As always thanks for your comments. I would be most interested in seeing what other things you have done to improve the base plate! Any chance of posting some of your pictures here so we can all tweak to our hearts content :)
Just to change subject, J7 from Audio-origami has finished tweaking and serviced my V! When I get this back I'm going to completely rebuild my 1210 and then finally use the Adjust+ software to set the things up. Then I can start to post some data about the decks performance :cool:
Hi Rexton here are a few pic showing waht I have done with my MK6Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5...outlethole.jpg
This one shows the hole I have drill into the back of the Rubber Base which is roughly in line with the output socket of my SME-V No kinks or sharp bends in the cable.
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1...rtonecable.jpg
This one shows the cutout to clear the bottom of the plug socket assembly.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6...dlecasting.jpg
This pic shows the middle 'composite material' casting. It is a pretty rough, and in fact is less rigid than the MK2 or 3 as a large piece has been cut away to allow for the reset button on the speed control, not good! same as the MK5 I believe.
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1...lyeurothan.jpg
This is not a pretty picture and will probably put some people off.
However trying to apply these very sticky matterials over a large area is not easy. The excess was cleaned off with Acetone, after the pic was taken.
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3...dlegluedto.jpg
This shows the middle casting placed into position onto the bottom side of the chassis which is now coated with polyuerothane. Again most of the excess was cleaned off before attaching the rubber base.
The rubber Base was quickly placed into position and tightly bolted to the chassis. The whole was allowed to stand for two days to thoroughly set.
The above procedure will most certainly be seen as a bit radical for many people. However I do believe that it represents probably the ultimate process to achieving a viable housing for the DD drive that can be realised without a large amount of money being spent on a totally new chassis/plinth, which I do not believe is justified.
If I were doing another one, I would apply the matterial to the composite casting, as it is smaller in area compared to the chassis and therefore you do not apply the stuff where it is not needed as I did!!!
Secondly you could cover the chassis with two layers of 'Glad Wrap" which will prevent the material from adhering to the chassis. but will allow the material to exactly follow the profile of the chassis as it sets.
This way you will finish up with a blanket of the material coated to the inner surface of the centre casting when you separate the two, and which will fit snugly to the chassis on re-assembly.
That's very radical, Mike. Presumably you have sacrificed the ability ever to open it up again?
Hi Martin,
Yes in this instance I will not be able to separate the Chassis and the centre moulding. But this doe not worry me as I do not expect to need to.
As I said earlier all the wiring can be accessed with the two parts permanently connected, so it is not a big deal. All that has to be considered is access to the bolts which clamp the tone arm so I have used captive nuts into the tapeared holes.
Mike,
Many many thanks! I think i may try this out!! This is sort of what I had in mind except using sorbothane on the inside of the chasis. I can make the sorbothane as thick as I like so with your mod on the underside and maybe the sorbothane on the inside the chasis will be well and truly dampened! :eek: Have you noticed any sonic differences as I have heard that too much dampening can suck the life out of music?? Incidently I have had to produce a similar cut out
on the underside of the 1210 to mount the stupid 90 degree connector at the base of the V!!
Regards
:cool:
Some neat cutting there Mike:)
Andy,
All you need is a 'Dremel' type tool with the coursest emery wheel, it cuts into the rubber very quickly.
You have not seen me with any tools in my hand Mike.:)
Lol, Andy, you might want to rephrase that!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Andy,
I can't wait any longer!!!
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Got the V back today from Audio Origami. Very I have had several hours listening to it so far and can report that several things have happened. Soundstage has improved further, micro-detail pickup has been increased, vocally artists appear more intimate, and sibilance has been decreased as well. The edge of notes appear to be better defined, this is something I could never quite picture but now I see what people mean by this statement. I'd even say that there was a little extra space between instruments. I can see further the mix of a record and there have been several occasions where I can hear artists talking to each other in-between tracks just before they start playing. I have yet to start using the Adjust+ pro software so that is going to be this weeks "toy" over the next few evenings. My next series of tweaks will be upgrading my Atlas balanced speaker cables and replacing my Isotek Elite mains cables with something suitably more exotic and hopefully all in SILVER and carbon fibre!!
wow, the lengths we go to for perfection! keep up the good work matey. pure silver after the isotek leads will sound too bright IMHO
David,
Have you any idea why things should sound bright? The V is now fully loaded with silver, the intrinsic wiring, cartridge tags are pure silver coated with teflon and terminated in Eichmann silver bullets. My system dosent sound as bright just a hell of a lot more detail, I think have burned in now and all I can say is that the upgrades were worth the £300!! My next upgrade will be the speaker cables. I dont know whether to make my own homebrew silver balanced speaker cables or terminate my old nordost SPM reference cable with balanced plugs?? Any idea?? :scratch:
A lot of customers tell me silver can sound bright but in your system not so which is good, I have a lot of silver myself and a bit of copper too. This may work nicely for you, silver plated speaker cable from sonic link, I have a bit spare if you fancy a bash?
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/t...n/IMG_8120.jpg
Silver doesn't sound bright for me either, but you have to have a well balanced system in the first place as it will expose any harshness there may be.
I would be surprised if you could better the quality of Atlas cableQuote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
I have nearly every thing connected with pure silver, interconnects, speaker cables, power sockets and plugs and even IEC inlets as well. But my system does not sound bright.:lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB
Colin, what make you say that?? The Atlas does indeed sound very nice but I keep hankering back to my SPM reference and I remember preferring this to everything else I've heard. I must admit that I havent heard many cables mainly QED silver anniversary, Atlas, Nordost, and some van den hul stuff and the SPM seems the best. The speaker cables and power cables will eventually get replaced but I'm going to be reviewing my system with the Adjust+ software just to see what it's doing!
Im only basing it on the fact that Atlas appear to go the extra mile on quality material and very good build. Im open to the idea there is differences with certain metals.
I'm using a couple of pairs of Atlas Navigator balanced cables (yes i know they aren't speaker cables) in this system & i'm very happy with with the results :)
I have a question though, what's this about balanced speaker cables? :scratch: Things are only balanced if the amplifier happens to be, IE it's a bridged output in which case nothing is truly grounded.
Am i missing something? :cool:
I have a ATC SCA2 preamp with balanced speaker output into my fully active ATC speakers.
Ah, gotcha, so what you have aren't exactly normal speaker cables carrying real current :) Like me you run an active system but yours is balanced from the pre to the xover & power amps in the speakers :cool:
Now with you 100%, i'd have called them interconnects though, not speaker cables as they are only line level. That is where the confusion set in :eyebrows:
So basically my SPM reference cable would be $hit in my current system and I'm better of producing some interconnects!?! :scratch: Well, I think I;m gonna order some silver cabling from fleabay and see what I can produce. This is of course dependent upon price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
The world is your oyster in this case :) You'll have shed loads of different balanced cable to choose from in reality. I use stuff from Maplin thats very good, but on ebay you'll find all sorts. You might take a look at some of the Van Damme balanced microphone cable which i believe Dave DSJR rates highly.
Just make sure you get decent plugs, Neutrik black type with gold plated pins i rate highly ;) But you can go mad if you like & pay £50+ for each plug, with you needing 4 you might want to give that idea a miss :D
Don't forget you'll need two female & two male plugs ;)
WARNING LONG POST ;) SORRY FOR TYPO'S
WHY BOTHER WRITING SUCH AN ARTICLE??
------------------------------------
Well I wrote this to help save money! Its very easy to spend £1000's on Hi-Fi, I've done it and regretted it. This little article is my diary of how
I upgraded my Technics 1210. As I went through this journey I learned not to be frustrated with my tinkering and found that a negative, fruitless
experience was actually a very positive thing in learning how my system worked, a lesson learned on what not to do again if you like! I atually began toenjoy the tweaking and I learned to enjoy intelligent tweaking, only spending money where money needs to be spent and using your head to find a solution to a problem. Tweaking is not for the impatient I also wrote this article as a diary for myself so I can look back and see where and how my system evolved and also as a resource to save time for if I ever need to re-house my system.
LET THE JOURNEY BEGIN.........................
The SME v Rewire and Service - COST £339
----------------------------------------
Got the V back today from Audio OrigamI and at £339 you may think that this was an expensive service but boy what a result! To complete the picture
I had teflon coated 99.99% pure silver (ok its not the best!!) intrinsic cabling replacing the old SME copper stuff. I replaced the SME copper cartridge
tags with Kondo pure silver tags.The cartridge tags were then directly soldered onto the tonearm wire, SME usually terminate the tonearm arm wiring into a circular piece of metal which sits under the headshell of the tonearm, cartridge tags then come away from this and then insert into the cartridge via a seperate set of cartridge tag wires.
By using my method we got rid of a whole level of cable termination I took my inspiration from the Michell technoarm which has a continous unbroken run of silver cabling from the cartridge tag to the RCA plugs. This is something that you can do with a V but I was advised against it due to the fact I have the TYR tonearm cable. Its one level of cabeling that could have been removed but had to stay.I had the tonearm dampened even further with having foam inserted into its shaft. The V's bearings were checked and found to be in perfect condition and the silicone dampening was also found to be normal. I had my Nordost TYR tonarm cable terminated with Eichmann silver bullets, and that concluded the tweaks. I have had several hours listening to it so far and can report that several things have happened. Soundstage has improved further, micro-detail pickup has been
increased, vocally artists appear more intimate, and sibilance has been decreased as well. The edge of notes appear to be better defined, this is something I could never quite picture but now I see what people mean by this statement. I'd even say that there was a little extra space between instruments. I can see further the mix of a record and there have been several occasions where I can hear artists talking to each other in-between tracks just before they start playing.
The Adjust+ Experience - COST £???
----------------------------------
Whilst setting up the V I tried various combinations with height of the tonearm, cartridge overhang, tracking force, anti-skate etc etc. I own the Audio Tehcnica AT-OC9ML/II which is a firecracker of a cartridge. It's lively, punchy, and very forensic but it sounds shit if its not properly aligned. This
actually highlighted how extremely important it is to get your cartridge lined up. I tried adjusting the cartridge manually and it sounded pretty good but
I then used the Adjust+ protractor to align the cartridge. I choose the baerwold protractor to align the V and the cartridge. $hit what a difference.
Janis Joplin sounded 6ft away in a recording booth whilst previously fish from Marillion and Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden sounded right at the back
of the mix. The soundstage prior to alignment was cohesive but post alignment it was super-tight, i'm talking superglue tight! The whole thing sounded wide, cohesive, I could see right into the Pearl recording. The timbral qualities of acoustic guitars was suddenly improved and the decay of notes suddenly lasted longer. One of the nice things about these little upgrades is that old records suddenly sound "new" simply because I'm hearing things that I hadn't previously heard. Some of these things are going to sound a little petty, but, for instance I heard fresh twangs to Steve Harris bass in Rime of The Ancient Mariner I heard some whispers that I had never ever heard in Script for a Jesters Tear an album that I must heard several thousand times (this is a conservative estimate). Where the hell had they been hiding all these years??
Fill Your Speaker Stands!! - COST £2
------------------------------------
My old Atacama speaker stands weighed in at about 7.5Kg or roughly 15lb's in old money. Being tight and not wanting to spend out on lead shot ot Atabites I decided to buy some Kiln dried sand from the local DIY superstore for £3.95, I needed some anyway for my drive as it has been snowing over the last few days. I duly filled both speaker stands to the top, let things settle, patted things down and then started to listen. I was rewarded with a deeper more tuneful bass. BEWARE this can produce too much speaker bloom which may enswamp smaller listening rooms. You can tune the effect of the bass driver by changing the amount of sand you put in your speaker stands. I only used 1/2 a bag, hence it cost me 2 quid!! Other materials can be used, I've heard of people using concrete or lead shot it's all dependent upon your wallet size. My speaker stands afterwards weight 15kg's or roughly 30lb's in weight which meant they could be easily moved.
Clean Connections - COST £3-4 approximately
-------------------------------------------
This is a procedure that i do at least once a year where I clean every connection that I can find. You can buy 100 cotton buds for £1 at your local
pound store if your lucky to have one locally whilst I use surgical spirit as my agent of choice for cleaning RCA plugs, speaker plug terminals etc.
More expensive solutions can be used but i dont think there is much, sonically, difference bewteen cheap and cheerful and stupidly expensive.
This job is a real pain in the posterior but when you see the dirt and grime after you've finished you'll realise that it was worth the effort.
I've noticed a clearer soundstage after this has been done. This may be purely psychological but I remember that I did a similar procedure with my old
Quad gear and the effects were similar to an upgrade of speaker cable. Not the most stunning of differences but one where you know your time hasn't
been wasted.
*********************
**THE FREE UPGRADES**
*********************
Learn Whats Normal to Diagnose Abnormal - COST ** NOTHING **
------------------------------------------------------------
I learned this from a consultant Radiologist whilst I was learning to read X-rays and I think that never a truer word was spoken. Every audiophile looks
for "that" sound which to them is there idea of Nirvana. This "sound" is going to be different from one audiophile to the next. I have spent considerable
time just listening to my system and learning how it sounds. This is especially important when evaluating upgrades. My advice is learn your system insideout. This way you will know if an item has made a positive or negative impact on your system. I would also recommend getting a few "reference" records which show various aspects of how your system performs.
I have a few favourites over many genres of music. I like to use track 1 on side b of Andrew Lloyd Webbers Variations. This track can produce a massive wash of sonics with synth's, bass, brass, electric guitar thrown at you all at once. I use this track to see how far apart the instruments are, I can also judge how the deck handles multiple instruments and study things like the decay of notes, time signatures etc. If you carry on to track 2 on side 2 you'll get some great Cello playing from Julian LLoyd Webber this is a record which has everything, and it's usually a junk shop favourite, I've picked up two copies for 99p!! The second record i like to use is an old copy of Bach's Tocatto and Fugue in B Minor simply to see how far down the bass responds, again another junk shop find for 20p, I'm sure there are records which could go lower in the bass department but it suffices for my needs. A third record I use is Slayer's Reign in Blood, this is great for testing out Bass drum and screaming vocals. If I want something smooth I have some great Miles Davis, this list goes on. I have also found that using Mono records and extremely knackered records very useful. I use the Mono records to test the width of the soundstage whilst I use knackered records to see if my system likes or dislikes poor or bad recordings.
I have found I can describe my system which is something I couldn't do prior to embarking on these tweaks. It's very very clinical, it hates
crap recorded music, it hates knackered records, it does not suffer fools glady. It can paint an extremely immersive picture of music, it does not
struggle with complicated time signtaures of "busy" pieces of music. Bass is very deep and a little bloomy (something which I'm working on), its taught,
lean and in places it'll kick your arse. The soundstage can be centrally, narrow and pinpointed straight in-between my speakers or it can be wide,
this is dependent upon the recording. I have found space between instruments and I could if I wished just concentrate on a single instrument whilst blanking out others. I can see deeper into a record and hear things that would be previouly hidden away in the record grooves. Simbilance has been reduced but sometimes still creeps in. Accoustic / Heavy metal / thrash / prog / 80's / synth / jazz all sound **GREAT** as for other genre's I have no idea simply because I dont have any great volume of these Genre's. I do have a couple of classical album's, Nigel Kennedy's 4 seasons is another reference record I use and it sounds stunning. Notes decay for longer, timbral qualities of instruments can be better discerned, vocalists can sound very intimate whilst previously they could sound at the back of a mix or simply "muted". My system does have some thing which drive me mad. I can sometimes hear a rumble whilst the records are playing, simbilance is another problem, surface noise is another. The list could go on..............
Sorbothane - COST ** NOTHING **
-------------------------------
Many readers of AOS will have probably have heard about my exploits with Sorbothane. I work with the stuff so i get it for free and I experiment
with off-cuts. You can buy Sorbothane cheaply enough if you want to experiment. I used to have my 1210 sitting on four 6mm circular
pieces of Sorbothane, note the word "USED". My logic was simple in that this should de-couple the deck even further from my Quadraspire rack and provide further dampening and level the deck out. It actually started to rob the 1210's punch and clinical, scalpal like incision qualities. This tweak is
probably good is you dont like things quite so edgy or dont like a super clinical approach to your system. I did however use sorbothane under my
phonostage and pre-amp, and thigs DID improve. So my advice is dont dampen down the 1210 with Sorbothane let the 1210's feet terminate onto your equipment rack and let it do the dampening. I'm still not quite sure "how" the sound improved with Sorbothane under the other components of my system but I just preferred the sound that I heard so now I leave the sorbothane under these components as part of my system.
Rack Configuration - COST ** NOTHING **
---------------------------------------
This can have a large impact in that feedback can occur in the form of a hum which can be heard over your speakers. This usually happens when you
havent properly grounded your 1210 or when a phonostage or external powerpack are too close to the 1210. I also own a Trichord Diablo
phonostage, its terrible for feedback hum and has to be as widely seperated as possible from its external powerpack. This feedback will be fed into your
system and I've found that this increases the noise floor. This can be recognised as a hiss in bewteen tracks or in bewteen instruments during a solo for example. Your 1210 should be silent when switched on with no "humming" in the background if you can hear a hum there is an issue somewhere. I keep my TimeStep HE powerpack on the very lowest rack of my Quadraspire rack whilst the 1210 sits at the top, my Pre-amp lives of the
2nd rack and the phonostage lives on the 3rd rack. I've tried to keep the phonostage away from the 1210 but my Valhalla interconects are only 0.5m long, this is mainly due to the fact they were stupidly expensive but also the runs of cable should be kept as short as possible. My CD player a Marantz CD63SE sits on the 3rd rack and finally my Isotek system sits on the very bottom rack. My system is silent when switched on. All components which are not being used are switched off this is mainly my CD player. You may find that altering your rack position has no effect on your system at all but until you try you'll never know. As mentioned my main benefit was a super quite noise floor.
Seat Adjustment - COST ** NOTHING **
------------------------------------
Yep this is going to sound silly but I pulled the chair in by about an additional 12 inches and suddenly things started to sound even better! Again this
is dependent upon experimenting. There are actually web-resources out there which help you save time and frustration, the Cardas cable site has lots and lots of papers on how to adjust your seat. Make sure that your seat height is equal to tweeter height and that your not too far inclined when your sitting as this will impact on ability to percieve stereo imaging if you use one the Cardas methods for seat placement.
Lowering the height of the tweeter - COST ** NOTHING **
-------------------------------------------------------
I'd heard about this on various forums and decided if there was any merit in this tweak. I measured the height of my ATC 50ASL's tweeter from the
ground and found it to be 104cm, these sit on atacama stands which are then decoupled from by 4 silicone pods which the speaker sits on. My ear-to-ground height is exactly 100cm. My first reaction was that this was not a bad match, 4cm is not that great a distance and then my 2nd thought was how do I make up the difference. The answer was simples!! I removed the silicone decoupler which saved me 10mm and cut 8 sections of 17mm MDF which I double up and then placed under my chair and hey presto a difference of 4 mm between my ears and the tweeter. I dont think my ears are good enough to be able to discern 4mm diferences.
The MDF was just a spare piece I found in the garage, the other half was pleased as the garage looked slightly tidier 8-)). I was worried about the effects of decoupling the speakers from the speaker stands but I could hear no discernable differences betwen having the speakers on the decoupling pads and with them just sitting directly onto the speaker stand. I also got the impression that the music was playing down to me as if I was having to "focus up" when listening to any record i spun. Now it seems as if I'm on a level par with the band
Equipment Placement
-------------------
Previously I had one Quadraspire equipment rack which held all my gear. This lived directly in the middle of my speakers, for quite some time I presumed that
this was having a negative effect of the soundstage. I decided to split the Quadrapsire in two, so now I have two racks which now live under the height of my forward firing speaker port and bass driver unit in my ATC speakers. Instantly I noticed that the sound stage appeared to open out and that the band were playing directly at me rather than it sounding as if someone was standing in front of me at a concert. The only problem with my current equipment placement is that its directly in front of a radiator which when switched on actually make things sound better. This may sound like bollocks but I think that I have heard this reported before, I welcome your comments on this! The only problem with the equipment being near the radiator is static and dust 8-(
Clean Your Room - COST NOTHING
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Clean your equipment and man cave at least once a week to stop excessive dust which will eventually get transferred onto your vinal and also your
cartridge tip. This should help limit surface noise on your vinyl.
***********************************
**AREAS THAT NEED TO BE WORKED ON**
***********************************
Surface Noise
Simbilance
Rumble Noise
Slight Bass bloom
In-toe Angle of Speakers
**********************
** FURTHER UPGRADES **
**********************
Room treatment
Vibration control - silicone bonding of the internal chasis
Paul Hynes SR5 power supply
Silver speaker cables
Silver power cables
Cartridge
Record cleaning Machine
Nice post matey, I am now selling Moth RCM's so may be able to help with the last bit, BTW any chance of some soborthane please? Fancy a dabble myself, can we swap for some mains bits and bobs?
I've made some very simple balanced silver interconnects bewteen my ATC amp and speakers. They cost the sum total of about £20, and were produced from a couple of old microphone cable and some teflon coated silver (9999) purity of fleabay for about £3 a foot. The cables are completely bare and have no protection of any substance apart from the teflon coating!! Well what can I say!! I'm stunned. The cables trumped a pair of £85 atlas Quadstar. I must admit that I think there isn't that much in it but I listened last night and could definitely hear more dynamic and micro detail from my current set up. This was definitely worth an investment in time and money. I'm going to now order some OHNO 99999 purity silver, and start experimenting even further with the interconnects and power cables!!!!! So I think I've learned 2 thing from last night.
1. A fully active ATC pre-amp and speaker system DOES sound better with silver even though ATC themselves recommend nothing more expensive than budget banjo copper.
2. A definitely get more microdetail and dynamics now that I've swithced the 1210 to a being completely silver wired system rather than a completely Cu system.
The experiment continues................. :mad:
One is supposed to sit on axis with the MID DOME, not the bloody tweeter....
All this and you still use an SCA2? That could be the log-jam if mine was anything to go by, as the entire time I had it (two years from memory), it sounded like a Naim preamp in dire need of a HighCap supply. When you've a few hundred spare, try a vintage Levinson ML28, which is balanced from input to output and sounded rather wonderful I remember at the time.
By the way, the Belden tinned-copper "banjo-wires" ATC recommend are actually quite good, if a little "safe" and treble monotonic sounding. Anything which sounds dramatically different to these should be viewed with extreme caution IMO. You have lifted the XLR pin 1 connection at the speaker end, haven't you, as this sits on the sonics as well if pin 1 is connected at both ends, despite ATC fitting a 47 Ohm resistor to the signal-earth connection in the speakers' amp packs to prevent ground/hum loops.
I also found that copious use of cable ferrites on the mains leads (or possibly use of Mark Grant mains leads today) helped bass reproduction. This was repeatable and three of these won't cost much more than a tenner.
By the way, you have hundreds of feet of COPPER in your voice coils and using proper balanced connections should dramatically minimise the need for exotic wire materials, especially as all the impedances are properly matched, unlike most single-ended phono connections around and about.
Lecture/rant over...
Thanks for the advice. Did you use your SCA2 with ATC ASL50's? What other pre-amps would your recommend, KRELL maybe?
Secondly Im not sure what you mean by " You have lifted the XLR pin 1 connection at the speaker end", can you expand a bit on this as this is something which I may need to do.
I did contemplate ferrites and only learned about them recently!! You mentioned using them on the speakers power leads, do think these would also help on the pre-amp power cables or interconnects from pre-amp to speakers?? Does it make any difference that I'm filtering this lot through an ISOTEK titan mains filtration system??
So many questions, hope you can answer one or two, thanks in advance. :eek:
Sorry if my prior post sounded a bit patronising - quick typing fingers (both of them :)) and a need to impart experiences, wanted or not, dictated the result...
I used active 100's for a good few years and used them both with the AVI S2000 preamp in both versions (great high-current, low output impedance single ended output stage designed from the off to drive long signal leads). I then switched to the SCA2 and found it a very "gentlemanly" sound in comparison. The old friend who bought the speakers and preamp from me still uses them daily and recently had the preamp looked at because the phono stage started acting up - connections rather than failure I understand.
These days, there are specialised pro line stages able to drive a balanced set of cables to speakers and Krell/ARC is the LAST place on earth I'd look (overpriced and over-finished male jewellery for the well-off IMO). Something like these -
http://www.tcelectronic.com/bmc-2.asp
http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipmen...troller--52866
I believe there are other units with extra inputs should you need them.
- are really all you need and are properly priced as knowledgeable pros don't buy "foo" products - the ATC SCA2 and matching power amp were for the audiophile fraternity and not the pro market... Electronic components are very cheap (several-a-penny in some cases) and really don't need to cost the earth. Simple line circuits don't seem to need ott power supplies either :)
As for non-balanced connection to the ATC's, in a domestic environment with often less than 10m each interconnect, a good line buffer is all you'd need. I didn't find the Croft over happy in this mode, although it worked ok at the time and the main reason I mentioned the ML28 (if you can find one) is that when Glenn became absorbed into Eminent Audio and was unreachable for a few years, HiFi Dave looked at Levinson and found the 28 preamp (fully balanced circuit from in to out with carefully matched components) an excellent thing to use..
Cable ferrites? Unnecessary on balanced interconnects (the ATC circuits will self-limit rf in any case) but the mains leads benefitted I remember...
EDIT - The ATC preamp is earthed to the mains and I think the pin 1 on the XLR's is directly connected to the earthing (check the circuit diagram if provided). The speaker amp-packs also connect to earth via their mains leads and ATC used to put a resistor between pin 1 of the XLR (earth/screen) and ground to prevent hum loops. I found that disconnecting the earth pin1 at the speaker end, but leaving it connected at the preamp (and shorted to the return on a phono equipped preamp like the AVI I had) seemed to improve the dynamics a little. As long as the removed wire isn't cut off, it's easily soldered back.
It's been some time since i updated this thread but Ithought i'd just fetch things upto date. So far i think the only three things that I could do to update my 1210 any further are :-
1. Adding the SR7XL power supply, which will hopefully be on order this Monday
2. Bonding the internal chasis and plinth together
3. Adding some regulators that haven't been released yet :eyebrows:
I've had the current setup and mods running for about 6 months. I intend to do 2 of the mods before the end of the year. I'll post an update of the improvements to the sonics once I have them installed.
I'll be performing the multi-regulator internal mod, with feed from SR5, as soon as I receive the bits from Paul Hynes, so we'll be able to compare notes.
:eek::eek: Cant wait !! :eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Been a while since I update this. But over the next two weeks the 1210 will have the following upgrades.
1. Paul Hynes SR27XL installed
2. New tone arm cable from Yannis
And then in the next six weeks
1. Paul Hynes internal regulator mods.
But here is a photo of what I call the uniplinth. I've bonded the sub-chasis and plinth together and stiffened up the original plinth by eliminating all unecessary holes in the plinth. I've yet to bond the MN base plate in but here's a quick pix of my resprayed plinth.
:popcorn:
Latest update, the new modified plinth has been installed along with the V and mike new tonearm armboard. The rest of the 1210 is spread out in all its glory over the floor :( The baseplate and PCB should be fitted tonight if time permits.
I remember that scenario!Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
Andrew, what did you fill the holes with on your 1210 plinth... car body mastic? Prior to sanding and spraying? Did you do the job yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
I'm thinking of travelling along the aforementioned route with the possible exception of replacing the on/off switch with a quality rocker switch.
Bet you'll be glad when you don't have to pull the Techy apart anymore :), so much easier working on a LP12 plus Linn jig :eyebrows: ?
Ron
Hi Ron,
I cannot remember what PS you have but if it is KAB or one of the remote switching types. Then you need not worry to change the switch, as the DC switching current/voltage of these units is very low and would not be affected by using a new higher current toggle switch.