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Hi Ali,
I completely agree on that point, as it's also my experience with music, on vinyl and CD.
On another point, as a DIY-er, and fellow valve enthusiast, could you do me a favour and extol the virtues of point-to-point wiring in valve designs when done correctly for the benefit of Cemal?
You'll be able to explain the advantages over PCBs in valve equipment better than I can :)
Right, off for a kip now!
Marco.
Well to be perfectly honest Marco,I don't think there is any difference,as long as the pcb is well designed,and indeed a pcb can allow the signal paths to be shorter than hard wiring.A hard wired amp does make it easier to swap components though.It can make builds cheaper too,as you don't need to pay to have pcb's designed and built.
It's often touted as an improvement over pcb's,but I think it's a marketing tool more than anything else.
Lol - no worries...! That's certainly not my experience, though.
I'm not sure how it can be a marketing tool, as to my knowledge, there aren't very many commercially produced point-to-point wired valve amps around - most use PCBs for convenience.....
You should speak to Glenn Croft about PCBs - a man more divorced from the desire of using 'marketing tools' you're scarcely likely to find! He doesn't make his designs more labour intensive by adopting point-to-point wiring for the sake of it, I can assure you ;)
Also, I don't remember seeing too many of Nick's designs with PCBs in them....
I'll ask Anthony to comment on this, as I know his views on the matter in respect to his valve equipment.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I'm going to disagree that populated PCB's are more expensive than point to point wiring. A PCB can be designed and prototyped these days in hours on a PC with all sorts of clever software, all you have to do is design the actual circuit and the software works out all the holes, copper tracking, component legends, in fact the whole shooting match. A bare PCB costs literally pence, components are fractions of a pence mostly and auto insertion machines can fit the components in less than a minute at full tilt, bend and trim legs of components, the a quick trip across the solder bath and job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
The most expensive part of manufacture - labour - has been kept to a minimum. Point to point wiring cannot be done by any machine and needs human intervention every step of the way from start to finish. The one element that separates the two is heat; PCB's don't like it up 'em and they soon start to slow cook and carbonise until one day a fire extinguisher becomes it's best friend suddenly, while P2P wiring is ALMOST immune from the effects of heat.
The PS in the direct coupled amps Nick is building for me will have pcb's.As for commercial products,economies of scale come into play,making it cheaper for items produced in larger quantities.
I agree hard wiring is better than using cheap,poorly designed pcb's,but IMO well designed good quality boards are just as good.
Solder is a necesary evil, having PCB tracks coated in the stuff is a frightening thought to me.Hard wiring is best to avoid this solder covered track buisness.
PCB are the stuff of mass production. Hard wiring gives you much more room for boutique parts where as cheap components are tiny these days, fitting say large flashy capacitors on modern PCB would look silly if not out of place, thats if you can even get them on.Hardwiring is a sign of high quality although messy layouts & rats nests are nothing better that some amateur DIY job! so it has to be neat to be respected as a quality piece. You can't beat hard wiring..& use the best solder if you can, cheap constitutes thick dull sound.
Just my view as i know nothing
Quite.However,I'm talking about the DIY side of things though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Effem
Oh, you know plenty, mate!Quote:
Solder is a necesary evil, having PCB tracks coated in the stuff is a frightening thought to me.Hard wiring is best to avoid this solder covered track buisness.
PCB are the stuff of mass production. Hard wiring gives you much more room for boutique parts where as cheap components are tiny these days, fitting say large flashy capacitors on modern PCB would look silly if not out of place, thats if you can even get them on.Hardwiring is a sign of high quality although messy layouts & rats nests are nothing better that some amateur DIY job! so it has to be neat to be respected as a qulity piece. You can't beat hard wiring..& use the best solder if you can, cheap constitutes thick dull sound.
Just my view as i know nothing
I couldn't agree more. I think some people should listen to the sonic effect caused in a valve circuit of introducing PCB tracks compared to hard-wiring that point in the circuit with the best solder and cable you've got, and then come back and tell us that they can't hear a difference ;)
I shudder to think how different (and not in a good way) my copper amp would sound if it were full of bloody PCBs!! :rolleyes:
Ali, are there any PCBs in Nick's 211? I must've missed them if there were.
Marco.
I really think this hard wiring thing is much more to do with the potentially lethal voltages that are found inside valve amplifiers. On top of that you also have devices that run stinking hot with no effective way of cooling them ;)
The result of the above is charred areas of PCB or fairly decent thicknesses of wire that can conduct some of that heat away & that have much thicker insulation compared to solder resist.
I ask you, which would be safer? :eyebrows:
I don't think it's much to do with sound quality though much more exotic wiring can be used than a PCB track admittedly. It's down to longevity & safety imo.
Not sure Marco,but as I said,pcb's are more trouble and expense for a DIY'er.Nick is using them in my amp for reasons of space.
Andre,agree with what you say,though I still maintain a good quality,well designed pcb will be just as good.
That's fair enough, Ali. All I can say is that in my experience I've yet to hear a truly outstanding sounding (by my standards) valve amp that uses PSBs.
I wonder why Glenn Croft insists on using point-to-point wiring in all his designs, even his £350 entry-level preamp (I don't believe there are any excessively high voltages in there, which kind of makes Mark's point somewhat moot), when he could save a whole load of time (and money) otherwise? :scratch:
I've asked Anthony for his views on the matter, so that should make interesting reading when he comments in due course :)
Marco.
Yes indeed.Perhaps Nick may comment also.I do agree that a lot of cheaper pcb's may well degrade sound,but good quality ones would I think be just as good.High quality ones would not be cheap though.
Naah. Differential topologies had been around well before the introduction of the transistor and those same topologies work for transistors just as they do for tubes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahib
If an input stage used just one transistor it was for one reason; to save money.
se
Yup, and how often do you think high quality ones of the requisite standard you're talking about are used inside in any way affordable commercially produced valve amps?Quote:
Yes indeed.Perhaps Nick may comment also.I do agree that a lot of cheaper pcb's may well degrade sound,but good quality ones would I think be just as good.High quality ones would not be cheap though.
There's no way that sort of cost could be factored into the budget and for the retail price to remain affordable. Genuinely hi-end commercial designs (say at least over £5k) might be a different matter.
Therefore, what's generally used in mass-market valve equipment is anything but high quality PCBs, with the resulting inevitable sonic penalties. This is precisely why Glenn Croft does what he does!! ;)
Progress? No chance. It's yet another valid example of convenience over quality in today's equipment designs. I'll cite plenty more later!
Marco.
Not to worry. Most all circuit boards today use the SMOBC process, which stands for Solder Mask Over Bare Copper. They only tin or solder plate the pads that are used for soldering the components to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
The reason this isn't obvious is because most circuit boards use colored solder masks. If you ever get a chance to see a board made using a clear solder mask, you'll see that all the tracks are pristine, pink copper.
se
Agreed,but as I said,I was talking from a DIY point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I know that, mate, but remember most people don't inhabit the world of DIY, and thus enjoy its benefits - they have to live with commercial reality....
Marco.
LOL,aye,but that's what you asked me to do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Perhaps someone missed this along the line :eyebrows: PCBs unless they are drilled to alow cooling will restrict air flow under the chassis. Wires will not restrict airflow to such an extent. Leaking electrolytic capacitors cause PCBs to become conductive, with the voltages present in valve amps this could easily cause a fire with the PCB going up in flames.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
Take it from me i have seen what high voltages & leaking capacitors do & it's no laughing matter :stalks:
Do i need to add anything else or have i said enough?
Hi Mark,
Yes I saw that, and indeed referred to it in one of my posts... I agree, but aside from that, there are also clear sonic advantages with hard-wiring, as opposed to using (cheap) PCBs - I've heard them! :)
Marco.
That's why I said well designed pcb's!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
Fair points. And of course tube circuits tend to better lend themselves to point wiring. They're often much simpler and use fewer and often larger parts. With an efficient layout, you could probably lash up a tube amp with some turret boards and tag strips about as fast as you could with a circuit board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
Now, a complex solid state amp? Forget about it. :lol:
se
Yes, i fully agree with you Steve ;)
Most of the larger components already tend to have tags on them anyway, or at least it appears they can be purchased with tag mounts. Valve holders, transformers etc, which leaves few components such as capacitors & resistors etc that can simply be wired between the tags :)
It all makes sense :eyebrows: You'd end up with fewer connections than if using a PCB which can only be a good thing from a sound point of view.
Yes indeedio! :)Quote:
It all makes sense You'd end up with fewer connections than if using a PCB which can only be a good thing from a sound point of view.
So, in terms of progress being made (the theme of this thread), some modern design techniques leave much to be desired compared to good old fashioned point wiring.
Next I'll tackle the way most affordable equipment is voiced these days (artifically thin and forward sounding), from CDPs to speakers, compared to the *best* vintage designs ;)
Marco.
I know that very well. Cost savings has been around from day one naturally. But in the early days of hi-fi it was not the only factor. Acceptable thd levels were much higher and the bar was raised along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy
Exactly, though a component won't always span the entire distance required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
Yes. Though personally I rather like the old brown paper/phenolic boards. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find it here quite a long time. Can get the laminate material itself, but not copper clad.Quote:
It all makes sense :eyebrows: You'd end up with fewer connections than if using a PCB which can only be a good thing from a sound point of view.
Then I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and the subject came up and he said to just get the laminate and send it to the board house. It seems the board houses are now going over to the additive process for making boards, i.e. plating directly to the laminate rather than using copper clad and etching it off.
So that's got me rather excited, though I'm not sure yet whether their process will work with phenolic-based laminates. I'm hoping it will because I'm really wanting to try some boards made from linen/phenolic laminate.
se
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahib
But what prompted me to reply to your original post was because you didn't say anything about acceptable levels of THD. Instead you said it was because it was "the only option."
se
I thought the same Marco.When Gary came over he brought his Cambridge amp though,it had quite a warm and laid back presentation which was actually quite pleasant.Much better than I was expecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
As I was going to say before I got sidetracked replying to posts, I don't think we've progressed as much as the marketing departments would wish to lead us to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Remember the "spec wars" back in the 70's? Where the mass market manufacturers were vying for the best specs? The more zeros to the right of the decimal place the better. It was a numbers game.
And we have much the same thing going on now, only taken to a different level.
Gotta use this wire because it's the highest purity, or has the fewest crystals. Gotta use that dielectric because it has the lowest dielectric constant. Etc., etc.
Most everything is ultimately geared toward improving some objective metric, with the implication that any objective improvement must be good, while neglecting the fact that we are subjective human beings, not pieces of cold, objective test gear.
It's caused a huge segment of the market to become unhealthily obsessed not only with purely objective metrics, but with the smallest of things. Forget about not seeing the forest for the trees. Or even the trees for the leaves. We're talking about missing even the leaves for the cells.
And that's literally the scale at which many are obsessing over.
I think in many cases we've lost track of the big picture.
Looking at it from a more philosophical point of view, we're being driven to seek pure yin, and eliminate all yang. But as the philosophy goes, without yang, yin ceases to exist.
I think we need to come back to a more healthy balance.
That's why I think some of the best vintage gear out there can ultimately be more satisfying than the most modern offerings.
They didn't worry about the cellular structure of the leaves. They got the basics right and they kept things relatively simple.
That approach has worked well for me. I try to get the basics right, keep things simple, and at that point, instead of trying to keep some number cruncher happy, I feed my soul.
And I guess that's what I don't care for in a lot of things out there. They lack soul. They come off to me as cold, cynical and contrived.
Anyway, them's my thoughts on the matter.
se
Awesome, Steve - I think that should be post of the year! I am in entire agreement :clap:
There are so many bits I could highlight, but with this you and I are so much on the same wavelength, it's untrue:
Hear, hear! :)Quote:
And I guess that's what I don't care for in a lot of things out there. They lack soul. They come off to me as cold, cynical and contrived...
I'll comment more later.
Marco.
Some great post guys really enjoying reading this. Lots of good debate and thoughts
I do believe most of us have fallen victim to the power of marketing (myself included)
Thank you for the kind words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
If I win, do I get a trophy? Should I prepare a speech? :lol:
It's twoo! It's twoo!Quote:
There are so many bits I could highlight, but with this you and I are so much on the same wavelength, it's untrue:
http://www.morethings.com/fan/blazin...eline_kahn.jpg
http://www.q-audio.com/images/biggrin.gif
se
Yesh, you get an extra-shpeshial prize specially 'administered' by me at the AoS Christmas party.... :eyebrows:Quote:
If I win, do I get a trophy? Should I prepare a speech? :lol:
Marco.
Yes. It pervades and invades every part of our lives these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by John
And the big boys spend big bucks on research to figure out how better to get into our psyche to more effectively manipulate us.
We are to them little more than a bunch of Pavlov's dogs.
se
Oooooo! I hope it involves a lot of latex and leather! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
se
hi all,
well,,, my main reasons for prefrence to hard wireing valve amps are quite simple, i choose the wire, i choose the length of the tracks, i choose what crosses what, ie; i choose the layout! also valve amps run hot, especialy class A !!! And as has already been pointed out,,, printed circuit boards dont take kindly to repeated heating and cooling, eventualy they can start acting like thermistors, ie,conducting voltages from sources you dont want! using thick copper wire as i do absorbs heat out of components connected to them and disperses it to air, PCB designs tend to hold heat and therefore can subject components to constant heat reducing their life expectancy.
there are other reasons why i think hard wireing valve circuits is better such as vibration etc,,, but i think i have made my point. however,,,my prefrence for hard wiring does not mean that i am totaly against PCB designs, far from it, some of my best designs are printed circuits,ie; the soul power amps and soul-mate preamps etc. i just like to be in control of how my designs are laid out and what type of board materials are used, also the quality of board material and copper thickness is very important to me, and
thats why i now design all my own PCB's
anthony,TD...
also,
as for us "liking distortion" that is only partly true, 2nd order or even harmonics yes, our ears actualy produce it, as for 3rd and higher orders ie, 5th 7th 9th etc, even small amounts are objectionable, that is why for eg we can tolerate badly designed single ended triode amplifiers producing sometimes in excess of 10%[low order] distortion and forgive them for it for the benefits they bring in musicality...
anthony,TD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy
Well put Steve, the best sounds are of the old School designs, Williams, Radford etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
Hi Ali,
I agree with you on today's music production in general. I am definitely not taking sides but just being objective from both the technical and artistic point of view.
The use of compressor to the degree of "squashed to hell" is a result of a trend but then again we do not follow it anyway. I'd love to rant on this subject but this is the wrong thread. Some other time.
@Steve,
Agreed. Seems I said it was the only option. My bad.
However, I still disgaree with the claim that we did not progress in design and manufacture. We did. Even the cheapest equipment today has got built in quality compared to its price, which was not possible to achieve say thirty years ago. I am not condoning mp3 here but to get the surround sound from a 29.99 mp3 device in 70s would be unthinkable. Or in 80s it would require a second mortgage to buy it.
I think we are missing the fact that we belong to a certain generation. I believe an 18 year old today gets exactly the same excitement from his/her mp3 that we got from our turntables when we were younger. That's the way it is. My nephew couldn't give a toss about vinyl. Even the CD is an obselete object for him and he is quite happy listening to his music from his PC.
We may be thinking that they are missing something. To a degree it is true, in the way that our fathers thought we were missing a lot of things.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahib
I was thinking this earlier & talking to a friend about the very same thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahib
CDs will be a thing of the past soon as everyone will download MP3 files from itunes & quality will be reduced to the lowest common denominator :doh:
Buy CDs now while they are being given away @ car boot sales, they'll increase in value to people that appreciate better quality :eyebrows:
Good stuff,and yes I think you're right as regards the young folk of today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahib
Good post, Cemal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that no progress has been made today in the world of audio - that would be ridiculous and completely wrong.
However, I'm just highlighting from experience areas where I don't think much (if any) genuine progress has been made.
Bear in mind, when I talk about genuine progress in audio, I'm referring solely to out-and-out sound quality. I couldn't give a stuff about minaturisation, facilities, convenience or 'gadgetry'.
If a piece of equipment made now doesn't actually sound as good as its predecessor, then for me no real progress has been made, regardless of any other assets said new product may have.
Hi Anthony,
Thanks for posting your views on hard-wiring - that makes perfect sense, and clearly shows the major advantages of not using PCBs in a valve amp :)
I do realise, though, that you're not 'anti-PCB'. It is simply that there are certain applications where adopting one approach or the other is beneficial.
Out of interest, what thickness of (solid copper?) wire did you use for the point-to-point wiring inside the copper amp?
Marco.
anthony,TD...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
2mm - am I right in thinking that's a bit thicker than the norm, and it's solid copper, right? :)
Marco.
hi marco,Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
yes quite substancial, it has to be due to there being no turrent boards etc for extra support.
from memory both earth and HT wiring in your amp is all solid core 2mm, with the inclusion of the HT wiring having red insulation!:lol:
anthony,TD...
Lol - may as well be thorough, eh? :eyebrows:
Marco.
It's really less a matter of even order versus odd order as it is a matter of high order versus low order.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
Low order distortion is less objectionable than high order distortion due to masking (see "critical bands"). Higher order distortion isn't masked so well and as a consequence is more audible,
However beyond simple audibility, it can still take a fair amount before it becomes objectionable. This is because higher order harmonics are not inherently objectionable.
Consider that a single note from even the most beautiful sounding musical instrument is ultimately just a highly distorted sinewave with a rich mixture of even and odd order harmonics. This is what forms the basis of additive synthesis (of which Wendy Carlos is perhaps the most famous practitioner) where you start out with a pure sinewave for the fundamental and then add other sinewaves at the harmonic frequencies in varying amounts to effectively reconstruct the sound of a real instrument.
se
No worries. We're on the same page now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahib
Sure, we're better able to build things very small and cheaply and still have them perform reasonably well due in large part to advances in photolithography and cheap labor in China.Quote:
However, I still disgaree with the claim that we did not progress in design and manufacture. We did. Even the cheapest equipment today has got built in quality compared to its price, which was not possible to achieve say thirty years ago. I am not condoning mp3 here but to get the surround sound from a 29.99 mp3 device in 70s would be unthinkable. Or in 80s it would require a second mortgage to buy it.
But it seemed to me that John, in his original post, was trying to get at something a little more fundamental than that.
I took him to be asking whether or not modern equipment necessarily gives us all that much more, in terms of the actual listening experience (and setting aside such things as smallness, cheapness and convenience) than equipment did decades ago.
That's always held true for the majority. That's why there's always been a market for less expensive, poorer performing products. Those who have sought the higher and highest levels of performance have always been a distinct minority.Quote:
I think we are missing the fact that we belong to a certain generation. I believe an 18 year old today gets exactly the same excitement from his/her mp3 that we got from our turntables when we were younger. That's the way it is.
And not all 18 year olds today get exactly the same excitement from their MP3 players as we did from our turntables when we were younger. Many of them are tossing out their MP3 players in favor of vinyl. In fact, it was this very age group who played a pivotal role in keeping vinyl alive and in many ways are responsible for the current vinyl revival.
And some aren't missing anything from their perspective. But many of them are missing something for the simple reason that many of them don't even get exposed to anything other than what's directed at the mass market.Quote:
We may be thinking that they are missing something. To a degree it is true, in the way that our fathers thought we were missing a lot of things.
There will be those 18 year olds who upon experiencing vinyl (or even digital for that matter) on a nice vintage system will absolutely fall in love with it. And they will be the ones who carry our passions into the future.
So don't write them all off so casually.
se
Good post Steve - my last visit to the local record shop I couldn't move for teenage punks digging through my adolescence - how very dare they! :lol: