Dimmy
I can confirm that removing the rubber was a right pain. Now that I look at that tool, it appears that it would not scratch the underside of the platter. Would that be correct?
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Dimmy
I can confirm that removing the rubber was a right pain. Now that I look at that tool, it appears that it would not scratch the underside of the platter. Would that be correct?
Actually it can scratch it but not significantly... more or less the same amount of scratching as with the sand paper or steel sponge
Here is my test platter :)
Attachment 13054
I reinstalled my Shelter 501 MK2 yesterday, so I am ready for some more a/b comparisons for the dynamat.
That looks really interesting. I can see now that you have some dynamat inside the magnet assembly, but not on the magnet. I may give that a go too. I'm looking forward to your 'before and after'.
PS what is that colossus under the platter?
There is also dynamat under the magnet on the part of the platter around the hole.
The speaker is a Tannoy Turnburry :) Not really that a colossus...
The one at the back is Montana EPS... Now that is big :p
Excellent stuff that Dynamat Andre thanks for the tip ;)
I used it on my pioneer platter which had a distinct ring before but sounds dead as a dodo now :eyebrows:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/...ccfee8bb_c.jpgIMG_0010 by 337alant, on Flickr
Alan
Where does one obtain it in the UK?
Marco.
I bought mine from ebay Marco, you can get lesser amounts from this seller
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2707317212...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Alan
Cheers, Alan. But, bloody hell, I should hope you could get it in lesser quantities, as I wouldn’t be shelling out £140 to try it! All I wanted was a couple of wee strips….
Marco.
I was looking at a review of an item earlier today and they had used this material to deaden the case so seems there are more uses than just under platters ;)
Regards Neil
Did the platter ring when a mat was placed on top? And does the turntable sound better for the damping?Quote:
Originally Posted by 337alant
Have you got a car parts shop nearby?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
They're likely to have some.
Glad you liked it. Did your platter have any other damping underneath that you had to clear away?Quote:
Originally Posted by 337alant
All sorts of sizes are available. The reason it comes in such large quantities is that it is used for cars. My chariot for example has all four doors and the boot lined with the stuff. Automotive retailers are likely to stock it. I have tried a couple of other brands, but they were not as effective. And if you do give it a go; the subspecies you ask for is Dynamat Extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Platter, Internally on the 1210 chassis, Cars where some put it under the carpet on the firewall between the front seats and the engine, computer case panels, on the bracing of speaker drivers. They also make a product that goes on the opposite facing internal wall of a car door speaker (could be used in a hi-fi speaker too I suppose). Not effective on politicians, noisy spouses and cats on heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L
Cheers, I’ll ask next time I’m in my local one. I’ll only be interested though if I can pick it up in small strips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
Marco.
Marco PM me what you need, I will send you some
Andrei, no it was a bare platterQuote:
Glad you liked it. Did your platter have any other damping underneath that you had to clear away?
Alan
Sorry if this has been asked before, but how can you be sure to maintain correct dynamic balance when sticking on such damping materials? I've no idea if the standard platter is balanced, but it would seem sensible to avoid out of balance forces that would require the motor circuitry to work hard applying corrections.
Yes this is discussed earlier in the thread. Jim (6L6) and Samuli (samursa) have both suggested materials that could be poured into the cavity. Samuli's pic at #49 shows the use of a spirit level. As I see it there are two benefits of this. First these material would ensure near perfect balancing; and second I imagine they would be easier to implement. I am certainly going to try it, as I have three spare platters, but I have a number of other projects on the go. It will be interesting to see if they are as effective at damping as dynamat.
The Epoxy recommended to me by more than one pweson who has done it is this - http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-s...2HwaAqIe8P8HAQQuote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
Although you may need a bit more than that quantity...
I understand what has been done there, but static balancing is not the same as dynamic balancing. Would you balance a car wheel with a spirit level, and why do manufacturers usually take such trouble to carry out dynamic balancing of platters? The potential out of balance forces may be relatively small, but in vinyl replay the displacement and forces involved at the stylus are tiny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
Hi Alan, thanks for that. I’ll work out what I need (won’t be much - just a few strips) and let you know :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 337alant
Marco.
I don t know if TT companies claim to dynamically balance their platters, but my guess is that it is either marketing BS or just something to care for a public opinion creating problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics
Static balancing balances a rotating object on its X axis, taking into account weight differences around the nominal disc surface.
Dynamic balancing also balances it on its Y axis, caring to separate balance inconsistencies scattered on the Y axis and account for them individually on the X axis balance.
The smallish speed, the shallow height, the rigid and consistent material and the static Y axis makes dynamic balancing rather irrelevant on a TT platter.
Car tires is a different thing because we have a highly elastic material with inconsistent density and significantly bigger height, spinning on high speeds and alternating Y axis.
Anyway, to my knowledge, the SL1200 platter is not even statically balanced, so even statically balancing it should be enough and a big improvement as it is...
We can statically balance the platter by tilting the TT at around 40 degrees, and slowly spinning the platter. The heavier side should slide at the down side and the platter should swing a bit on that spot before stopping rotating. We need to add some weight on the opposite side. We repeat that until we have no swinging effect because of heavy areas drawn to the bottom by gravity.
Careful no to damage your spindle with the side forces.
Your cartridge traces paths measured in microns, do you not think the best balancing possible should be a gold standard, especially given the effects on speed stability and bearing noise that imbalance in the platter could potentially cause?
Applying the entire gold standard for tire balancing to my platter? Not really. they have different properties and different degrees of freedom to move.
Considering the slowish speed and the single axis of movement, static balancing should minimize all those effects to the point where they are a matter of bearing tolerances.
Oh and not to mention the top rubber mat, which would make every attempt to balance the platter a joke, unless we glue it to make it a permanent component of the balancing act.
I always wondered why the platter on my SL-1200 rung like a struck gong even with that nifty Technics rubber mat under there. For the $15 that I can get some for on eBay, it's definitely going on the underside of my platter. If you think damping sheets (Dynamat or Cascade) have many audio uses, do a Google search on "Magnepan Razor Mod". And yes, my Maggie MG-2.5R's have been treated as well :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
An alternative way to kill a ringing platter is to attach lead stripping that can be used on glass windows to the inner edge of the outter platter. And a two-piece platter can be "glued" together with a thin layer of vaseline.
My view has allways been that balancing is a waste of time on the Technics and similar platters for the reasons allready given relating to speed, matt and also the fact that the platter sits on a tapper and will never sit in the same position twice making the process redundant. Any accurately machined platter will be good enough for the speed it rotates at. The variation from true is not going to be enough to cause audible speed fluctuation and there are many factors which have a far more dramatic effect on sound which should be addressed before getting to that level, weakest link first etc. If you are looking at that level of detail you should not be using the stock platter and bearing anyway, bit like doing engine mapping and full rolling road tune on a Nissan Micra used for commuting to work. The acuracy of the hole positioning in the centre of the record will have a greater effect on the sound due to speed fluctuation on the eccentric groove diameter.
So there are many factors to consider and although in principle we should allways strive for the optimum, I wouldn't get too concerned about balancing. :)
Anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking Technics employed kids from the street to design their products. The SP10 has a balanced platter and a certificate to say it is balanced. Platter balance will affect speed stability and impact on the servo mechanism in the electronics and motor control.
Lack of resonance and damping are not a panacea. I have heard an MDF platter, (AK's original idea for the LSD) and it was dire. Dead - in every sense of the word. Certainly ringing like a bell is not a good thing, but simply damping it is not a perfect solution. Balance, rigidity and structural integrity are important too.
As for a damped platter rendering the termination of a mat redundant - well. only maybe. Just because any energy from the stylus isn't exciting a ringing in the platter, doesn't mean it isn't being reflected back from the platter into the vinyl itself. A damped platter won't transmit energy away, nor absorb it all.
If a bit of gunge on the underneath of a platter is the ultimate last word in platter design, a couple of rubber bands wrapped round the outside of a tonearm should achieve the ultimate tonearm design. And to think people waste time with engineering solutions :doh:
Interesting results on an image search - you would think Mag would incorporate it into their design, it probably would not be expensive to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickeyM
Have you used Cascade before? I have tried an alternative to Dynamat but it was not as effective, but it wasn't Cascade as I would have remembered that name (it is a bridge partner's online handle).
I guess Magnepan isn't treating their speakers for the same reason other speaker makers aren't treating the baskets of their drivers. Probably too labor intensive as I don't see any way it could be automated. I used some DYNAMAT EXTREEM on the cross bars of the woofer/mid drivers along with strips of it around the perimeter of the driver frame. It did sound better but not as dramatic as when I put the drivers from my MMG's into hardwood frames. I'll have some time Sunday to finally apply the DYNAMAT to the bottom of my Techie's platter and I'll post back on the results. I agree with you Andrei, damping the underside of the platter may make whatever mat you use on top of the platter less critical. Or maybe even more effective. We'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
I haven't read anyone saying it is. What it is is a cheap, simple and effective way of killing a ringing platter. It works - well it did with a Thorens 160 B MK II and original AR turntable, when I tried damping both platter and sub-chassis on them. Indeed, at one point Thorens' importers Cambrasound, made available a tune-up kit for the 160 which included damping panels after it was seen there was a market for it. And what about Max T. using carpet to damp his Glastonbury speakers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldpinkman
What would your solution be?
Man, that leftover rubber & glue is a bear to get off. Mainly because I didn't break out the acetone at first :doh: Right now my platter is looking more like the second pic than the first. I'm really itching to get this completed so I can hear the results ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
I hope you find the results worthwhile after all that effort.
What's your other equipment Nathan?Quote:
Originally Posted by RickeyM
So do I! It sure is a right pain doing that work! But if you do most of the important mods; power supply, tonearm, bearing, platter - and some of the minor mods; service the internal connectors, headshell, record clamp - you really will get a top turntable.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
The other parts of my kit are as follows: Sony STR-DA5ES with the pre-out feeding a Yamaha MX-830. My sources are a Sony DVP-NC555ES and my SL-1200MK2 using a Audio Technica at120e. My speakers a Infinity RS5 "Mutts" and Maggie MG-2.5R's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
The SL-1200 so far has the tonearm re-wired & cotton stuffed, DIY external PS (stock parts used), RCA cables upgraded, a couple of the caps on the PCB upgraded, an O-ring under the spindle bearing housing with some blue LED's and a repaint thrown in for good measure. Currently experimenting with different mats (stock/cork-rubber/acrylic). Even with just these few mods the SQ has improved and I like it!
Followed Andrei's instructions and got the Dynamat on. The platter is MUCH better damped than stock. Knocking on the deck surface with the stylus on a static LP, m.uch less sound getting through to the speakers. A very good improvement for $15
OK, although this has been a dormant thread for years, I am attempting to revive it. Hello everyone from Westchester New York.
Or more like Niagra Falls New York as I am on a bit of a mini vacation, heading home tomorrow, back to reality.
In case anyone has the burning question if I can see Canada from thewindow from where I am, the answer is a resounding YES!!!! Yes I can! Oh yes, and the falls too!!!
Despite all these years, I have yet to take the plunge on this upgrade, but I plan to do it as I am equipped with Dynamat extreme.
I have a suggestion for anyone attempting to perform this mod. To make things easier, how about using a heatgun to perform this mod.
Apply heat on the metal side of the platter for a minute or two. Then apply heat on the underside of the platter (the rubber side).
Do not keep the heat gun in the same place. Make sure to keep the heat gun moving around the platter and rubber, or you will burn the surface.
With the platter and rubber heated up, it should be relatively easy to remove the rubber. You may want to use a spatula to help assist in the separation of removing the rubber from the platter. It may actually come out cleaner than trying to remove the rubber using non-heated brute force methods.
I am recruiting/volunteering Marco to try this method to let us know how well it goes. C'mon Marco... I have faith in you to rise up to this challenge!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Hope this helps.
For health reasons, Marco is not currently participating here. We hope he will be along in due course once he recovers and we wish him the best.
As someone who has carried out this mod using a heat gun made no appreciable difference,the type of adhesive use seems to be reluctant possibly for obvious reasons. Just good old hard graft gets it off. Helps if you have an old bearing to spin the platter on to keep an eye on the balance. I finished mine topside with a fitted copper top,handy to have the longer 'Mike New' bearing so you still have enough spindle projection:thumbsup:
I think most of us have moved on from the 1210. I've still got mine but people hardly post about them now.
I have not moved on. I just have nothing left to do on it. ;)
Yep l now that feeling, that's why I started messing around with Idlers :doh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
I did not know that. Hope Marco recovers real soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Nope. I have not moved on. I've had my 2 1200's since 1986. The best looking TT's ever made were the Technics DD TT's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
I'd put the Denons Yamahas and the JVC's right up there as well.
Thanks for letting me know. Now I know I have my work cut out for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by I.D.S.
SnapQuote:
I have not moved on. I just have nothing left to do on it.
OK I removed the rubber mat from the underside using nothing but a heat gun and a knife. It took me about a couple of hours to do this.
I started with the heat at 450 degrees F moving up as high as 1000 degrees f on the rubber. The rubber is removed. Next step is to remove the glue from the platter, then make a template of the platter underside for fitting.
Once the fitting of the template, I will make the dynamat out of the template. I am looking at next weekend to do this.
Man the platter really rings like a bell with the rubber off. It would have been great if technics paid more attention to the platter and the rubber underside.