Well quite...but who's talking of artificial...even the best food / ingredients still need seasoning...as any Chef of repute will tell you...the analogy is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
What was the point of this thread again? :confused:
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Well quite...but who's talking of artificial...even the best food / ingredients still need seasoning...as any Chef of repute will tell you...the analogy is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
What was the point of this thread again? :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechwoods
There is only one use for such a thing http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/i...124/daleks.gif Target practice for EXTERMINATION. :lolsign:
Regards D S D L
Because there's no accounting for taste...Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Why would a flat wooden crate like structure care about the quality of food? :scratch: :lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The "issue", or point of this thread, is essentially not to 'shoot the messenger' when the messenger is simply telling you the 'truth' ;)Quote:
I'm unsure what 'issue' this thread is intended to get to the bottom of TBH! :scratch:
Marco.
Huh?
Hi Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Well, put it this way. It's not a NAS, Technics DD, Raven, Idler driven Garrard, Brinkmann, Kuzma, Verdier or SME to name but a few. ;)
All of the above can play piano & orchestral music without getting too muddled.
Now listen 'ere sonny, I had a Linn jig, a Philips rubber mat with holes in to catch the bits and a special custom station at the back of the shop with all the bits readily to hand. Bearing in mind my employer was one of the biggest Linn dealers of all, the two shops getting through 20 LP12's a week at the time and around 50 assorted Rega's per month, we were in at the centre of the "Linn" crowd in the early eighties.....:gig:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L
The height of the bar stool I sat on and the height of the station allowed me to do much of the donkey-work with the deck propped up on my forehead before final set-up in the jig, which I reckon has been thrown out now the shop I worked in for 17 years is B&O only now.
In more recent years, the other Linn dealer I worked for had a more conventional arrangement, where all of the setup work had to be done with the LP12 in the jig. They did have the official Linn toolkit though and three yellow plastic component boxes with various arm and deck bits contained within (we had little wall mounted stack-a-bin things). I found the arm-cable dressing a bit fiddly done this way compared to my more intimate approach, but the Lp12 was a much simpler thing to set up by then (plinth much better made and the bolts and sub-chassis were set up true and parallel at the factory).
Anyway, I think the old fruitbox has had enough exposure for one day.. :cool:
Indeed! I of course meant 'palate' - my wee brain only functions up until 6 o'clock :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Homar
Marco.
Blimey... I know the feeling. All too well in fact! :lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
:lol: Marco tripped up on his culinary spelling. There's a first!
I used a wall mounted Target wall shelf with the shelf removed for decks needing work underneath and for those that didn't the shelf in place. I still do at home. Compared to a Roksan Xerxes a Linn is a breeze to set up....but the Roksan sounds better IMHO. I hate setting up Roksan's platter off, platter on errrrrrrrrrr. Why place a critical part of the sub chassis adjustment where you can't get to it, stupid IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Regards D S D L
Jeezuz, I thought you were smart!Quote:
Huh?
I think perhaps you need to re-read the opening post of the thread... However, allow daddy to explain (sort of :eyebrows:):
Confucious say, glasshoppa, that some people they say modified 1210 not 'play music', but it not that 1210 'not play music', it that 1210 play music on record without sore finga (salt & vinegar)...
;)
Marco.
Even the greatest of us are fallible, and besides I hadn't had my dinner yet :eyebrows:Quote:
:lol: Marco tripped up on his culinary spelling. There's a first!
Marco.
Oi you!... It's after 6pm :ner: :upyours:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I was going to post exactly that.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffo104
Whether they admit the existence of them or not, everyone makes a significant compromise when they select their components.
You will never, ever make a hi-fi sound and feel like real, live music.
.........and anyway.........
......what does the live music of your preference really sound like? Who knows what it would sound like tonight if the guitar roadie had picked up cable 'A' instead of cable 'B'?.........or if the guy on the board had nipped up the collar of that connector just a bit tighter...........or if the speakers had been placed four inches to the right............or if they had been playing in a different venue??????????????
(..........either way, I prefer a Gibson !!!!!)
I couldn't agree more, Chris. However that's a slightly different argument.
My point was that, in my experience, low-mass belt-drive turntables such as Regas and LP12s, and other decks of their ilk, impose more of a sonic signature - a 'flavour', if you will, on the sound than a good direct-drive T/T or idler/rim-drive does, mainly as a result of the former's inferior speed stability, which I'm sure could be measured. It's the impact on music of the latter which I feel is highly significant.
If a turntable fails to operate consistently at the right speed during playback then it is fundamentally broken from the outset.
Like I said, there's nothing wrong with liking a T/T which gives the sound a specific 'flavour', if we find that flavour pleasant, but when that flavour isn't there on other, arguably more accurate T/Ts, then one shouldn't then assume that the turntable in question is 'unmusical' simply because it delivers a sonic 'flavour' that is different to what we expect or consider as 'musical'. I could mention sugary-sweet tea and well-done steaks covered in sauce again but I won't ;)
Basically, I get the feeling that often when people use the word 'musical' to describe the sound of a turntable, what they actually mean is that the sound has a 'flavour' which they consider as 'musical', rather than the turntable in question intrinsically revealing more music from records with the highest fidelity and least coloration possible, and hence more of the actual music recorded in the grooves, which is ultimately what 'musical' truly means.
For me, the latter is what a top-notch turntable is all about and nothing else :)
Marco.
Yes, I completely understand your point, but you may be missing mine.....
In respect of speed stability, your TT may be superior to some others, I don't know. But any component adds a flavour to the music - it's just that your ears don't hear it. Now, that's not a bad thing. It's great that you've found something that does it for you.
Now tell me your amp doesn't add a flavour all of it's own, or your cables.....or your room.
You see what I mean? - Perhaps in point of fact, there is no such thing as 'uncoloured' - it could be that you, & I, & everyone else, have found the tint that best suits us!
No I understand what you mean, and I agree of course, but if we try to minimise coloration or 'sonic signature' where possible within the individual components we choose to make up our systems then, cumulatively, the effect of 'flavouring' will be minimised and we should get closer to what was originally recorded on the record or disc, no? :)
Then of course after that, as you say, we've got the 'flavour' of the room to consider!
Like I said before, I don't want to hear the turntable - I want to hear the music on the record.
I personally hate tailoring the sound on purpose (creating a 'flavour') if I can get away with it; when you start consciously doing that you're defeating the purpose of having a 'hi-end' hi-fi system, IMO. I also think some people should look up the meaning of 'high fidelity' and what building a system around those principles entails.
Marco.
I certainly agree with the notion of removing the flavours we can hear, but if you can't hear the flavour that I can hear, it will sound great to you and crap to me. You will almost certainly hear something you don't like (unless you built the system).
I guess the most fundamental question is:
Do your ears hear what my ears hear?
The answer is most certainly: 'No'.
So who's right?
You may be right, but my view is that when discerning listeners (people who aren't interested in creating 'flavours' on purpose with hi-fi) are presented with two turntables playing an identical piece of music, the one that imposes the least signature on the music is the one which is usually deemed as superior.Quote:
I certainly agree with the notion of removing the flavours we can hear, but if you can't hear the flavour that I can hear, it will sound great to you and crap to me.
It was interesting to note some of the comments we received about my modified 1210 in the AOS room at the recent Scalford Hall show, where people were saying that they had never heard a turntable sound so "stable" and so "real" and "all of a piece" before (these are actual quotes) - and guess what T/Ts they had at home? The usual low-mass belt-drive suspects! :eyebrows:
Anyway I'm off to bed now, old chap. We shall continue our chat tomorrow :goodnight:
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
How true that is. The most neutral will almost always be viewed as the most accurate. And of course the most neutral will be viewed as the least coloured. I used to have a Rock MkII until I heard a friends KAM DJ deck. This was far more lively and far less coloured than the Rock. I just couldn't live with it anymore. The Linn Basik that I have now is purely a stopgap, purely a temporary fix until the right thing comes along.
One thing I would like to say is that I find these DJ decks very digital in their presentation in that they are very dynamic and very uncoloured with a slightly forward sound. Is that good...? Well it is if that is your preference. This now becomes the key. What is your preference as that is the sole thing that makes it right or wrong. I personally don't want an overblown woolly sound that is full of flab. I want something that is trim, fast and lean... just how I like my women...lol. I have an age to make up my mind as I now have no money (again) but it's going to be a journey full of dangers as I will be buying secondhand only. I will not pay twice the true value for an item just because Joe Bloggs Audio has a shop.
I will get back to this point in the future whereby I have to decide which deck to buy. Given what I have experienced on this forum to date, I'll get plenty of help.
What's with this 'low-mass' thing?... you mention it quite often in various threads!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Sticking with the LP12 V SL-1210 for now we get:
SL-1210 @ 11kg (source - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...Product_ID/228)
LP12 @ 10kg (source - http://linn.co.uk/files/0981e726/Son...n%20(1008).pdf)
So the SL1210 only weighs 10% more than the LP12, and the LP12 doesn't include an arm!... hardly a vast difference I'd say. :scratch:
And... oh never mind.
I'm bored with this Technics V 'Fruit Box' thing now. Put another record on please! :)
It's not a "Technics vs. fruitbox thing", Mikey - those are only two examples used during the discussion. It's about being aware of what 'musical' actually is when applied to a turntable :)
No, no, you're completely missing the point... :doh:Quote:
Sticking with the LP12 V SL-1210 for now we get:
SL-1210 @ 11kg (source - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...Product_ID/228)
LP12 @ 10kg (source - http://linn.co.uk/files/0981e726/Son...n%20(1008).pdf)
So the SL1210 only weighs 10% more than the LP12, and the LP12 doesn't include an arm!... hardly a vast difference I'd say :scratch:
A 'hi-mass' belt-drive turntable looks like this (the tangential arm is incidental):
http://www.avguide.com/review/kuzma-...-record-player
I.E, big, heavy, bulky, 'massy' - in order to deal effectively with the issue of seriously accurate speed stabilty, which direct-drives like the SP10 and SL-1210 get right without the need for all that 'mass' and bulk.
As an aside, that'll be one hell of a turntable (I rate Kuzma T/Ts and arms highly) but how many people have got the room to house one of those beasts, not to mention the necessary funds to acquire it? An SP10, for example, is a far more 'elegant' (i.e neater) and cost-effective solution to the same problem.
Having observed the Kuzma above, you should now realise why things like an LP12 or a Rega are deemed as 'low-mass' ;)
Marco.
Mike,
I don't think that the relative mass of the Teccie and the Linn comes into play particularly. One of the advantages, to me, of the Technics is it's relatively, compared to the bastin plinthed 401 I had, low mass. I'd wager that the Teccie platter is significantly lighter than the LP12s.
cheese
I've just explained the 'high-mass/low mass' thing, dude :smoking:
The 'high-mass' belt-drive route and that of high quality direct-drive, with reference to seriously accuate speed stability, are one and the same. It's just that the former requires a behemoth statement of metal in your room and the latter, erm, doesn't!
Marco.
Agreed... compared to decks like that most other TT's are low mass, no matter what drive system is used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I'll stick with my UFO. Extraterrestrial space ships can defy the laws of Earth physics anyway! :eyebrows: :lol:
I think all decks add some flavour to greater or lesser degree's, what matters most is that it's to 'your' taste. The rest is just gravy. ;)
Maybe this thread should be in the foodie section! :lolsign:
Whose heard of a PID Algorithm... Me for one. What does it do...? It controls things like quartz servo's. That includes the speed stability on a Technics or similar deck. How does it do this...? By over compensating then undercompensating then overcompensating then undercompensating ad infinitum. The end result is that it never actually meets the end speed. It is always hunting one way or the other. The PID functions of the algorithm can be adjusted to minimise the hunting but it still never gets there. So what is the error...? Well, the accuracy is probably out of measurement but please do not assume that just becuase it is digital and quartz it is infallible... It is not...!!! This is basic engineering and maths combined.
This is simply not true. Direct drives are controlled by a PLL and that is an analogue device. This is an old and very stale chestnut!!
:bag:
Dave
I agree that a Phase Locked Loop is an analogue device but there is no reference to the Technics being controlled by one. In fact, there is no reference that even KAM decks are controlled by one.
The point of this is just to make the point... digital and quartz does not mean it is the best. The finest photographs the world has ever seen have all been shot using film and still are albeit using bloody great sheets of film but if we are coming down to subtleties then everything must be included. Something must be responsible for a Technics or KAM or whatever being so neutral. I haven't a clue what that could be but this is a brill thread.
You don't need a reference, you just need knowledge.
I agree there are bad direct drives, brilliant direct drives, bad belt drives and brilliant belt drives.
But please do not attribute imaginary characteristics to the SL-1200 or any deck come to that!
BTW, like your photography!! :kiss:
:bag:
Dave
I heard a KAM DDX4500 played against a Rock MkII. The Rock was fitted with my Alphason arm and an Ortofon cartridge and the KAM obliterated it. Now I am aware that this deck is only around 250 or so quid and is probably very mediocre compared to the hallowed SL1210 G5 but it was very good. In terms of looks the KAM obliterated the Rock as well. Just were does this leave things...??? I don't know. I just know that there has to be a good reason when we are constantly being told that 2k decks are worth 2k of our money. Are they...???
If a deck costs you the customer two thousand pounds then the dealer has paid around eight hundred pounds plus VAT. What true value does that put on to a 2k turntable...??? What are we actually getting for our money in real terms and are we then to believe that this deck is so truly wonderful...??? What makes a true Hi-Fi deck true Hi-Fi...??? If the sound of the Worlds supposed No1 turntable is so coloured and the engineering so limited, why is it so praised above say, a Technics SL1210 G5. I'd rather buy the Technics brand new than an LP12 secondhand and twenty years old. For me, it's a question of value. Secondly, it's a question of music.
But what does the SL-1200/1210 cost with all the modifications fitted? (I don't think my Denon is going to have cost much less when I've finished BTW).
And how do we measure 'value'? :scratch:
I would just like to state that Mike's Denon 'UFO' comes into the same category as the Techys with regards to speed stability.
Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, Marantz, and a whole host of others, have all at some point made just as good (arguably even better) direct-drive T/Ts as Technics - it's just that the SL-1200/1210 is the only one currently available new in the UK, hence why it is discussed so much and also in terms of being modified.
National Panasonic (Technics) aren't the only company able to do direct-drive properly!
I just thank God that the DJs adoped it as their 'reference' T/T, otherwise in its original guise as a hi-end hi-fi turntable it would have gone the way of the Dodo years ago, just like the T/Ts of some of the manufacturers above... We slag it off for being a 'DJ deck' but forget that it was DJs who saved it (and vinyl itself)!
Marco.
I guess I'm asking; "even if the SL-1200 (or similar) comes in at £1500(ish), what else is on the market with similar or better performance for that price"?
How the hell do we put a 'value' on these sort of things? :scratch:
Mikey,
All-in-all, I reckon it's cost me around £2k to get my Techy where it is now - but so far I've not heard anything under £5k that significantly betters it in terms of the traits we've been discussing on this thread; i.e. getting 'closer to the music'.
A Brinkmann La Grange, Kuzma, SME or Platine Verdier would give it a run for its money in that area, but then one is also suitably paying for the privilege of ownership.
At the other end of things is a brand new 'fully pimped' LP12 with Keel, etc. At around £10k it is frankly obscene if sound-per-pound value is of primary importance, and unless you're a Lottery winner why shouldn't it be?
Marco.
Well, I can believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
But how do we put a 'value' on these things? :confused:
'One man's meat is another man's poison' and all that... I don't think there are any 'right or 'wrong' answers TBH! ;)
The Technics also benefits from being produced by a manufacturer capable of producing things in mass. The reason the Technics was so popular with djs was down to it's build and reliability - I have a few dj friends and none of them will look at anything else.
Its become more popular in the hifiworld because of forums like this proving that with some mods it's 'acceptable' to have a deck such as this. Something the printed media has refused to accept.
For £2k there are a lot of very good decks - Acoustic Solid, Roksan,Michell, NS, Clearaudio all make very good decks withing this price limit. All are primarily designed by a single person and built within a the skills avaiable. As someone mentioned the NA decks are very enjoyable to listen to but lack the build quality and finish of Michell - it's up to the person to decide on the sonic benefits and the reliability and build quality of a component.
The bare Technics decks are ok, they are nothing special, they need modifiying to fully realise their potential but then there are people doing the same to decks by Rega and Michell. Companies have being making mods to the LP12 for years and it's quite easy to purchase a 2nd hand LP12 and get third part mods which easily compete (or better) the full on brand new LP12.
The Technics has good speed stability, good reliability and thanks to the dj world, plenty of easy to get hold of 2nd hand decks. It's a good starting point to add £1k of mods and still come in around £1250 to £1500.
Personally at that price I'd still take a NAS or a Gyro which give a different presntation that I prefer over something like the Technics. As mentioned it's all down to the flavour.
There are too many variables involved to vinyl replay and too many different preferences to state a deck like the Technics has not had any involvement with condiments of some sort.
Persoanlly I like Michell decks because I can appreciate the design and build of a person and see the engineering quality, rather than owning something produced to fit a purpose and then having 3rd party mods to bring it up to an acceptable level. That's simply down to personal taste.
Hi Griffo,
Good post and nicely balanced. I completely agree :)
However, just one small thing, being such an annoying pedant :eyebrows::
How would you know unless you've tasted the 'flavour' of a fully modified one? Am I correct in assuming that you haven't yet had that privilege? ;)Quote:
Personally at that price I'd still take a NAS or a Gyro which give a different presntation that I prefer over something like the Technics. As mentioned it's all down to the flavour.
If your only basis from which to judge is a stock model then that's like saying you know what spaghetti tastes like because you've had Heinz! Sorry, I'm just lovin' these food analogies :lol:
Marco.
I refuse to eat Heinz products since they closed the HP Brown Sauce factory in Aston :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
This is a personal thing with regards to modifying equipment and I've argued over the point on another forum previously. I remain unimpressed by unmodified decks.
At some point in the future I will get a chance to listen to your deck and share a few :cool:
Modified kit can prove to be very cost effective and can bring great rewards from doing such work - I've heard modded kit quite a bit, some very good I think has been degraded by the mods but the owner is happy so who am I to argue ?
I had an argument over email with someone trying to get me to put my beloved Orbe under the knife for his mods when all I wanted was a simple piece of the jigsaw. He didn't understand why I didn't want to do it. Subsequently Michell brought their own mod out to solve the problem - considerably cheaper then the one I wanted to buy and more effective by those that had both.
I find the design and aesthetics to be just as enjoyable as the music - it's another reason why I have so much enjoyment out of Lyra carts, simply reading Jonathan Carr's attitude to design AND music appeals to my nature, therefore I am interested in his products.
I think for me around value there are few ways to go
For Ultimate value a Lenco would be a good place to start. You could get one up and running for a few hundred quid and it will sound pretty good if you spend more on plinth arm and Cart then you can really get some great sounds
Marco has mentioned the 1210 and if £2000 gets you close to a Brinkmann LaGrange or Raven AC well that is pretty good. I imagine that Mike's Denon suitably mod will get you close as well
The 401 or 301 on slate will get you close to a Brinkmann LaGrange as well
At some point I must hear what a mod 1210 can do.
I really miss my super scoutmaster!!!
Griffo,
I can understand that and respect your buying priorities :)
For me, I am influenced very little by those sorts of things. I'm not that bothered who made what, where it came from, or what the sensibilities of the designer are, as long as whatever it is sounds superb and is well built. I love retro and classic hi-fi, and so would rather own something old than new, given that it sounded as good or if not better than its newer counterpart. I also love 'proper', solid, engineering. However, I've yet to hear, say, a Garrard or Lenco that I'd swap for my modified 1210 - and old belt-drives, forget it!
An SP10 fully-tricked out with all modern bits including a nice Jelco 12" arm, not forgetting the ol' nail, the 103, is about as retro as I would go turntable-wise in order not to sacrifice on sound quality. Ultimately, Beechy is right: performance is what matters to me most with hi-fi, and what gets me 'closest to the music' whilst adding as little 'flavour' as possible.
Marco.
Ask HiFi Dave, he'll tell you!!!!! :) I think it was a standard version though without the tweaking....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Homar
You want to see a UK made vintage deck with lots of metal (88lbs of it I believe - I can tell you the flywheel was bloomin' 'eavy and needed special screw-in brackets to carry it into position)... Thank gawd the wall was made using engineering grade bricks. i could never have done this on a modern build, let alone the Suffolk Soft Reds the current property's built with..
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...990Mentor2.jpg
You can hear mine with a full OL Rega RB250 arm tomorrow:)Quote:
Originally Posted by John
Not fully loaded though.
Mmmm... I'm now totally confused. Am I eventually to spend 500 on a brand new Technics SL1210 G5 or 500 quid on a what...??? 25 year old LP12...??? If I am to spend it on a Technics I have to be honest and say that I have no intention of ripping it apart but if I am to spend it on an LP12, then what...???
Well I think going for an LP12 would take you down the wrong road but who am I to say what is right for you...and thats the whole point...this is all subjective and down to personal choice. There is no right or wrong here just personal choice...
How many of you have heard, yes actually heard a Clearaudio Emotion package with an OC9 cartridge fitted? Or an Acoustic Solid Small Machine with SA-250ST arm and a Shelter 501 II ?? Or a SL-1210 with SME 3009 and OC9, or even Marco's SL-1210, Jelco SA750D and 103SA? :kiss:
And when you heard them, were they playing music you knew though amps you knew on speakers you knew in a room that you liked?
And then again, would you choose a different system for rock and one for classical?
Confused?
:bag:
Dave
Well think you need to hear what a 1210 can do mod there must be someone local near you you can hear a mod 1210 before u decideQuote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
David most of us have to make the best choices we can and its just impossible to hear every combination in ideal circumstances for the majority of us; for me I want to have my cake and have icing on the top so I want a system that does nearly everything well but in the end for me I will value something that can rock well has a sense of aliveness to it and allows the music flowQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley