Printable View
Since this IS turning into quite the 103 tribute thread ... :lolsign:
I'll let pictures do the talking for something that happened last week ...
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...glip/dead1.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...glip/dead2.jpg
Is there any recourse? or is a new cart inevitable? :confused:
Try some Sellotape?
No, more seriously, it's a new cartridge I'm afraid Kelvin :(
Who's your nearest Denon dealer? Normally there is an exchange price available, which is about 20% off the cost of a new cartridge. All you do is send your damaged one off and the dealer orders a new one for you at the discounted price. Denon recycle the damaged item.
I can recommend a few who operate this policy, but unfortunately they're all in the UK.
Marco.
No that's dead, time to buy a Goldring... ;)
Hehe...not forgetting the Anadin :eyebrows:
Marco.
heh .. no worries. that's pretty much what i expected. that's taught me to be really focused when anywhere near my TT. the bent cantilever was the result of an unfortunate accident when I was being a bit too enthusiastic about trying to clean my stylus with a Zerodust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
thanks for the offer, but I bought this cartridge during an earlier trip to tokyo. also, Denon here doesn't bring in any turntables or its associated accessories; we're considered quite a small market for TTs. Most if not all of the Denon carts here are imported.Quote:
Who's your nearest Denon dealer? Normally there is an exchange price available, which is about 20% off the cost of a new cartridge. All you do is send your damaged one off and the dealer orders a new one for you at the discounted price. Denon recycle the damaged item.
I can recommend a few who operate this policy, but unfortunately they're all in the UK.
Marco.
well, i guessed as much that it's dead. but i also got quite a good deal on the 103R on the same trip to Tokyo, so it's as good a time as any to give the new cart a go. But I invested in Doc Feickert's alignment tool, and figured that the 103s weren't getting a proper fit on the stock technics headshell, so I put in an order for the lpgear zupreme. while this was happening, I had brass counterweights and a couple of mats coming in that I could experiment with on my table too ...Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG
all I can say was that the wait seemed a lot longer that it probably was ... :lol:
Be more bloody careful this time with this one, then! ;)Quote:
but i also got quite a good deal on the 103R on the same trip to Tokyo, so it's as good a time as any to give the new cart a go.
Good luck, and keep us posted on how it sounds when everything is up and running :)
Marco.
definitely! live and learn ... i must say. well, i do have a AT33PTG waiting in the wings, but that's no bloody excuse for me to wreck another cart just to get to it! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
anyway, the zupreme headshell, counterweights and mats all arrived in the last couple of days, and I finally had sometime yesterday to fix everything up. which led to a couple of questions ..
1) i was using feickert's to align the cart, and after setting the pivot to spindle length of 215mm, i used the baerwald null points to align the cart properly. after sorting that out, i got curious and flipped over the disc to the lofgren null points, and found that it was perfectly aligned for those points as well. i never quite understood the difference between the two sets of points, but i recall reading that they were at different distances, therefore I assume that to get from one to the other, I would need to at least change something. Am I doing something wrong in the setup?
2) also, I'm now using the zupreme headshell and it gives a nice solid build to the headshell/cart combo. however, to achieve the 2.5g vtf, i've had to move the bigger CW quite far back to balance, and the smaller piece is not used at all. i guess the only way that both pieces will be in action at the same time is for a vtf of 2 or less. would this be correct?
well, enough with the questions .. i'm currently running in the cart, and will hopefully be able to give some impressions of the 103R, together with experiments with the mats soon. it already sounds quite good out of the box, and i can't wait to give it about 20-30hrs.
here's some pictures of the setup as it stands ...
the 103R/zupreme combo. sweet! :eyebrows:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...nglip/103R.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...03R_avatar.jpg
the complete tonearm with CW
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...lip/armwcw.jpg
and finally, the obligatory low light TT porn shot ... :lol:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../dark_deck.jpg
Great pics, Kelvin! :smoking:
I don't really have the time to reply in detail in the moment, but one thing strikes me straight away... Which cartridge alignment tool did you use? It looks like you've got the cartridge much too forward in the headshell. From experience, I can tell that it's not right.
Try moving the cartridge back until, when looking down at it from the top of the headshell the cartridge overlaps the front of the headshell by about 1mm. Without an alignment protractor you won't get this spot on, but that's roughly where the 103 should be positioned in the headshell when used on the Technics arm.
Try that and see if it sounds any better :)
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
This is what i'm using for alignment. I used the same tool, with the baerwald null points to align my earlier 103, and that's where i found the technics headshell to be deficient, as the 103 needed to be a lot more forward than the headshell could allow.
the 1mm overlap that you've recommended would correspond roughly to the 52mm overhang that the technics overhang tool would give. however, i've found this to be a bit inaccurate for alignment purposes, so I'm using the protractor above. i've tried setting up a cart with the technics tool and the protractor, and the setup via protractor sounds a LOT better. :pQuote:
Try moving the cartridge back until, when looking down at it from the top of the headshell the cartridge overlaps the front of the headshell by about 1mm. Without an alignment protractor you won't get this spot on, but that's roughly where the 103 should be positioned in the headshell when used on the Technics arm.
Try that and see if it sounds any better :)
Marco.
Interesting. I've got various types of protractors but I've never ended up with the cartridge in that position using the technics arm... Anyway as long as it sounds good that's the main thing! :cool:
Marco.
Come on, David, have you not made something up yet that sounds plausible? :ner:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Price
;)
Marco.
hi david,Quote:
Originally Posted by David Price
cant comment on the Denon, [never had one ] but i remember the first time i got into a TR7 i was amazed at how high the sills were, and how difficult it must be for a lady to exit one with her dignity intact!
:lolsign:
Why would that worry you, boyo? The sheep you date down in the valleys would hurdle it no problem! :lol:
Marco.
steady on there denon boy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
or next time you visit i'l get billy to give you a good sheering!:lolsign:
Oh no, not the infamous 'bil-ee special' - a short 'n' up the backside! :eek:
Marco.
:lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
anyway,
while marco's away, any body had experience with the audio tecnica 440ML.
A....
Lets have a MM versus MC debate in Marco's absence. ;)
now theres an idea...
A...;)
How about getting his phono stage to work first in any capacity! :ner:
Marco.
how rude,,,Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
it is working, he just needs a ceramic cartridge!!!
:lolsign:
Never mind a ceramic cartridge - he just needs ANY cartridge! Not to mention, a turntable, oh and some records... I guess those would come in handy :eyebrows:
Marco.
good point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
i think you should lend him your turntable and a couple of your depeche mode albums, he can practice his sctratching technics,go on, it'l be alright that ole denon is as "Tough As Titanium" ...:eyebrows:
:lolsign:
Hehehe... I just LOVE Noel Keywood, but I couldn't manage him whole, all at once :eyebrows:
Marco.
:lolsign:
ANYWAY,
we've had our bit of leg pulling, its back to the guys who have something constructive to say on this thread.
anthony,TD.:)
Indeed. I'm just waiting patiently for David to offer me his pearls of wisdom :)
Marco.
Listened to a 103R today on a Luxman PD555 with a 'weighted' Wilson Benesch arm via 3 different transformers. Certainly better than the 103 as I recall it but still not as secure on strings & big piano chords as I'd like. It is preferable to many of the rather clinical & anodyne sounding modern cartridges that can be bought but while its fuller & fruitier balance is quite attractive it does lack for precision in the bass & some finesse elsewhere. It glosses over some things too. I'm sure there'd be mileage in improving the structural integrity of the bodyshell but the magnet circuit probably needs to be mounted in something more substantial too.
Of course that starts to cost & isn't what these cartridges are really about.
Nice one, Guy. I'm glad you've heard one now on two decent systems ;)
I can't comment on what you heard though because I've never listened to a 103R in that context.
When you say "weighted", do you know how much exactly? You're talking ideally 20g on the headshell for optimum performance. This is what I've got now with the Fidelity Research S/5. If it was anything less than that there would still have been some evidence of the coarseness you referred to earlier, probably manifesting itself this time as the lack of "security" you mentioned with some types of music.
Also VTF is optimal when set at 2.7g, not the 2.5g that many people use.
I agree, and it's precisely what I don't like about the majority of modern cartridges - they just lack 'soul' and make records sound as sterile as some CDs. If I wanted that type of presentation I'd have bought one of the many 'high-end' CD players on the market now and forgot about vinyl altogether.Quote:
It is preferable to many of the rather clinical & anodyne sounding modern cartridges that can be bought...
The above weaknesses are addressed by optimally matched transformers and the use of a high quality valve MM stage (like your P10 ;)). I'm not sure which type of transformers were used when you heard the 103R today but I've yet to hear any better than the Haufe ones in the Auditorium 23 SUT. Achieving the optimal loading value for cartridges is often underestimated and absolutely crucial for the full potential of the 103 to be realised - it really does open out the sound quite remarkably at both ends of the frequency range. The A23 is particularly good at making the 103's top end sound sweeter, more extended, and adding overall finesse. Unless optimally matched transformers are used you will only hear a fraction of its true potential, of course the same is also true of any other cartridge.Quote:
...but while its fuller & fruitier balance is quite attractive it does lack for precision in the bass & some finesse elsewhere. It glosses over some things too.
That's one of the reasons why using transformers with MC cartridges gives better performance than with active MC stages (that and much lower noise) because one can apply a specific ideal loading value to a cartridge, which normally falls out with the range of the selectable dip switches used on most commercial active designs, or indeed those that only offer the one setting! There simply isn't enough flexibility available on your average commercial active phono stage to 'tune' cartridge loading and optimise it accordingly, as the 'sweet spot' invariably falls somewhere in between the available settings. Most people using such designs will probably find that the setting they've applied is perhaps only delivering 80% of their cartridge's full potential! As far as the 103 is concerned, those who have judged it using an active phono stage, or the wrong transformer, will quite simply not have heard it properly.
I'm not sure about the mounting of the magnet circuit, but the 103SA has a glass fibre composite epoxy shell and 6N OFC wiring, also used in the 103R. I'm sure that part of the leap in performance I noticed changing from the 'R' or 'Pro' to the SA was due to the improved resonance characteristics and structural integrity of the SA's superior quality shell. Furthermore, the SA's are made to closer tolerances in critical areas of the circuit, so this is what makes it better than any other DL-103 currently on the market. I've also heard the ZU-modified version of the 103, which is excellent, but in my opinion the SA is better still and *the* one to have.Quote:
I'm sure there'd be mileage in improving the structural integrity of the bodyshell but the magnet circuit probably needs to be mounted in something more substantial too.
I know where you're coming from but I don't necessarily agree. I see the 103 more as an enthusiasts device than a 'cheap and cheerful' cartridge for the masses, and therefore ripe for tweaking and optimising to extract the most from it. But, as you rightly say, that costs. However, in my opinion, the likes of the 103SA when properly partnered and set-up is as good or if not better than any cartridge I've heard at around £2k. The SA is only £445, and it doesn't cost over £1500 to optimise it. I've heard Lyras and Dynavectors at that sort of price which don't have anything like the same musical qualities.Quote:
Of course that starts to cost & isn't what these cartridges are really about.
It's just a pity that most modern MC cartridges now don't have that lovely 'tone' and harmonic richness the classic ones had. Most MC cartridges these days are voiced in a way which prioritises analysis and detail retrieval at the expense of 'musicality' and a more 'luxurious' tonal balance which IMO is more faithful to the sound of real voices and instruments. I think cartridge manufacturers nowadays have lost their way somewhere. When you hear how good the Ortofon SL-15 is, for example, it makes you wonder why they moved from that type of sound to what their current models produce, which is almost the complete antithesis.
Do you have any idea what the catalyst was for the significant 'tonal shift' between how the best classic MC cartridges sounded and the di rigeur presentation favoured by most manufacturers nowadays? Surely with the technology available now one could have the best of both worlds, instead of some of the 'chrome-plated', soulless, anaemic sounding crap foisted upon us? :confused:
Marco.
interesting comment. i'll be sure to give it a try later to see if 2.7 is indeed optimal. does this apply to the other 103s that you've heard as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yup :)
I find at 2.7g everything 'clicks into focus', with the ideal balance between good bass weight and top end clarity. Also, difficult recordings are handled more securely and with greater 'authority'.
Oh, and on the Technics arm, set the anti-skate to just a fraction under '3'.
Marco.
cool. will give it a try later and see how it goes.
also, my kab deck is finally done, and should be shipping out very soon. let's hope i can get it in by christmas! :)
Here's hoping, Kelvin! :)
Another little tip - have you tried removing the little rubber washer fixed to the back of the bayonet fitting of the headshell? I've found that doing so gives better coupling to the armtube and results in improved detail retrieval and 'focus'.
Marco.
Kelvin,Quote:
Originally Posted by bong
I have the Feickart thingy and an SL1210. In my view, the Feickert guage is useless with a Technics tonearm, because the alignment is "Stevenson", which is similiar to the "rega" alignment.
Essentially, the Stevenson arrangement is optimised for LPs with longer playing sides. I can't remember the exact radii, but Stevenson is good down to inner groove radius of 60mm, whilst Lofgrin & bauerwald are more like 66mm.
OTOH, if you only listen to classic jazz and classical recordings, with only 15 -> 20 mins a side, the Lofgrin and Bauerwald would most likely be fine. I reverted to Stevenson, more or less, but you can, in effect have you own "custom" alignment, You just choose where you want your null tracking error points to be. With a pivoted arm, there is no "correct" alignment.
Anyway my Feickart guage is waiting for me to sell it to an interested party.
cheers
An interesting question. I do wonder whether it was something to do with trying to get records to sound 'pristine' like CD sometimes does. The usual 'chasing the specs' bollox!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Interested party sitting right here! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by user34
Did the Feickart gauge give correct overhang? This for me is what the Feickart does best, along with rapid setup. Checking many peoples' TTs I've been horrified to find the no one I checked had the correct overhang. This is not surprising as these guys had simply setup via 2 null point protractos. The chances of getting overhang correct by this method is remote. I'll shutup now as this this OT.
Indeed. It's all wrong, wrong, wrong...! :(Quote:
An interesting question. I do wonder whether it was something to do with trying to get records to sound 'pristine' like CD sometimes does. The usual 'chasing the specs' bollox!
Those who judge hi-fi equipment of any description solely (or mostly) on that basis, not just cartridges, will always ultimately miss the musical message. That's why I laugh when I see the word "accurate" applied to this, that and the next thing. We seem to have been 'conditioned' to accept that a brighter, more forward, sound is consequently the most accurate when in reality that is far from always being the case.
I mean, accurate to what I wonder? How an oscilloscope or some inanimate piece of test equipment reads music signals, or the human ear and brain? Both are rather different!! I sometimes wonder if manufacturers who design their products on those principles are catering for human beings or robots...
Marco.
i haven't yet. i've tried removing it previously from the stock technics headshell and i agree that there was definitely an improvement in focus. let's hope it'll bring the same to the zupreme. the rubber washer feels stiffer on the zupreme compared to the one on the stock; i wonder how removing it will affect the sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yes it does, but only for Bauerwald and Lofgrin. It's abeautiful piece of kit, really easy to use. Just no use for Technics SL1210 with a standard arm, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive
i might be wrong on this, but from what i understand, the feickart is tonearm neutral, as in it can be applied to any tonearm within the pivot to spindle lengths that it can accommodate. it's just that it offers the baerwald and lofgren null points, while the technics overhang tool offers a stevenson null points. so it's more a choice of the user which set of points to use and which will sound better to him, rather than that the gauge is 'useless' with the technics arm. the arm doesn't choose the gauge, nor vice versa. the user does. :smoking:Quote:
Originally Posted by user34
i took the following from feickert's website, where he listed instructions for the gauge.Quote:
Essentially, the Stevenson arrangement is optimised for LPs with longer playing sides. I can't remember the exact radii, but Stevenson is good down to inner groove radius of 60mm, whilst Lofgrin & bauerwald are more like 66mm.
from what it claims, the lofgren null points provide for the majority of current or 'modern' records, while the points on the opposite side, the baerwald points, cater for older recordings from the 50s and 60s which cut a lot closer to the label, even down to 56mm. so i would believe that most records around today are catered for. my earlier question actually was that once i set my overhang, the arm seemed to fit into all 4 null points, while i know that the 2 sets of null points should be different in measurement. :scratch:Quote:
The major goal was to find a tracking geometry that suits LPs in a perfect way. Out of a 100 records we checked the inner and outer radii and found out that the IEC recommendations of 60,325 and 146,05 mm were matched well by the large majority of records determined. After Løfgren’s equations this results in 70,2 and 116,6 mm for the Null points and a linear offset of 93,445 mm.
Older records dated back in the late 50s and early 60s sometimes have recorded grooves at down to 56 mm! Taking this into account we have calculated a second set of parameters and printed another template on the backside.
most, if not all of my LPs are pressed in the 50s and 60s; all classical jazz and vocals, but some of them really do cut it even just 1/2 a centimeter away from the label. so while they might be about 20mins a side, the grooves still take up pretty much the entire surface. also, perhaps there's no 'correct' alignment, but i believe that there should be an 'optimal' one. :eyebrows:Quote:
OTOH, if you only listen to classic jazz and classical recordings, with only 15 -> 20 mins a side, the Lofgrin and Bauerwald would most likely be fine. I reverted to Stevenson, more or less, but you can, in effect have you own "custom" alignment, You just choose where you want your null tracking error points to be. With a pivoted arm, there is no "correct" alignment.
hi clive,Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive
this was the same huge revelation I had when i used the feickart gauge on my cart. the overhang that feickart recommended meant that the 103s could and should never be used with the stock technics headshell. the cart simply had to sit so far forward in the headshell, that the technics shell ran out of grooves for it. i know of people who took to filing the slots all the way to the edges to accommodate the 103, but i took the lazy way out and ordered the zupreme. ;) i also agree that most people would setup with 2 null point protractors, but overlook the overhang; well, this observation based on the discussion on my local forums anyway.
Kelvin,Quote:
Originally Posted by bong
Sorry, you're right. I expressed myself in an absolutist way. When I used the Feickert guage, I found the cartridge too far forward in the headshell. I now just use the Technics guage, and then check alignment with a Db systems protracter I've had for years.
cheers
i use an ortofon samba on my blinged 12Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
i'll get me coat...
An interesting thread here about the 103, its variants, mass loading, electrical loading etc. I wouldn't agree with all of it but some good points are raised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/...x?postID=46#46
that's one cart that i've been hearing good things about .. here it's about the same price as the 103R. will probably give it a go soon, to see how the 3 carts at the same range, the samba/103R/AT33PTG compare. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinman
Peter,Quote:
Originally Posted by user34
No worries. I was just trying to make sure that it wasn't absolute, as I'm quite an analogue newbie myself. always refreshing to see new points of view being shared. :eyebrows:
I especially like the term " Audiolumpenproletariat " ha ha :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
I'm proud to be a member of the audiolumpenproletariat :)
The Denon DL 103 is just a entry level / low end cartrige suiting the Technics 1210 entry level / low end TT very well.
"dolph"