O, the chatter is good for business, but I am sure when it has run it's course Stan will make his own judgement.
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O, the chatter is good for business, but I am sure when it has run it's course Stan will make his own judgement.
Ere ... One for the font geeks http://www.tothepoint.co.uk/more/fun/shoot_the_serif/
Dunno why you don't just use verdana ;) :D
Brian,
no, it’s a true italic font. See the font manufacturer’s website for more details. What did you say, how long have you been in the typesetting business?Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
“There is no sin except stupidity.” — Oscar Wilde
Werner.
Chris, I have no particular preference here, I am already on record as saying Stan's original design is basically sound. The only aspect of it that I am a little uncomfortable with are the slanted idents for the LED's which I feel look a little cheap and cheerful. As Stan has reminded us on several occasions now, it is he who is looking for further input, I am only playing with Werners designs because he and I are having a friendly disagreement about placement and font issues. I don't suppose for a minute either of us are going to be upset if Stan passes over our efforts ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism
I really like Beresford's logo. It brings a perception of old-fashioned quality, maybe drawing similarities with the likes of the old Leak logo.Quote:
Originally Posted by webby
I prefer using text annotations rather than symbols at the bottom of the face plate - they line up nicely rather than different shapes of different heights. Werner's Bushmaster font is great and I prefer it when positioned near to the volume control with the 24bit text line below the product name.
Andrew
Maybe it's just me, but I much prefer the look of Gazjam's designs and ideas to Werner's. :scratch:
Just to clarify... I know Verdana is a screen font ... That's why I said it, I thought it was funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
My 2p on the font issue is that I would use a very simple font and keep the text to a minimum
As Werner mentioned someway back lower case looks smart!
I have also counted as many as 4 different fonts/variants on some of these designs ... That's a no-no in my world. One for the logo then a single font for everything else would keep it smart I think
I only do web design so I just choose fonts based on what they look like on the screen or how cufon renders them ... I also don't have much background in design especially print... So I wouldn't want to make any recomendations on choice of font specifically... But as I say, some awareness of the KISS principle may well help ;)
It's because they are nice and simple ...Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Werner's designs (with respect) are IMO over egging the pudding a bit
Gaz's look like a Beresford too ... They fit the brand
Werner's are trying to fit something to a brand that isn't present in it ... And whilst not bad designs just don't fit with the logo or the "feel" I get from the brand
IMO to go with Werner's look an entire rebranding process inc logo would be required ...
Hamish,
very good point, excellent remark! Thanks a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
Now, if it were possible to make more changes to the hardware, I probably would suggest something like this:
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/7530_future.jpg
Credit must be given to Yamaha. I like most of their vintage design very much.
Werner.
423 posts in 6 months on the sound of a future DAC:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
286 posts in 6 days on what it should look like:eek:
.
Popped back in to catch up....busy busy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
With respect to Werner I have to agree with the above.
I think its important to keep the Beresford brand identity.
Stans oiginal design was fine imho, it just needed a few minor tweaks with the graphics.
Agree with Marco though, silver power button the silver case.
Over egging the pudding and making changes for changes sake I feel.
Its a small dac - imho its best to keep the design simple, clear and to the point.
AND....lets keep it Beresford!!
Good effort guys
Gary,
may I kindly ask you to describe that brand identity in a few, simple words? Who defined it originally? Stan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Many thanks in advance,
Werner.
P.S.: Why does the link to your website not work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbasrah
No ones heard it yet ... They have seen it though ... And been asked about the design ... You wait til people get their paws on the thing!
I find it slightly strange that the Beresford logo is entirely absent from Stan's website(s).
I pointed that out the other day and received a reply:Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Berghofer
"my website being rejigged at the moment'"
deleted by request
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Berghofer
I would though say that the logo on the dac is understated and simple ... The look of his previous products reflect thier cottage industry routes.
There is no pretence, it's just simple and to the point
Somthing that is equally reflected in the brand it's self as well as the products
Stan him self, the product, his ethos and brand all reflect (for me at least) somthing that is not trying to be somthing that it isn't ... Quality, but affordable quality!
If that makes sense?
I would doubt a brand has really been defined ... Stan? Do you have branding guidelines? It doesn't strike me that it is the sort of brand that they are required ... And would probably be an unnessasary expense for a company like stans.
In this instance the brand and brand "feel" has come from the product and product ethos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Berghofer
Hi Werner,
look at Stans previous Dac models....thats his brand identity.
As its Stans company its probably his.
Some useful reading?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand
My website is being reworked (by me) at the moment hence link not working.
If you want to know anything just ask :)
*Edited* (thanks jan)
Hamish,
where’s pretence in these front plate layouts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear...ns_black_2.gif
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/7530_future.jpg
Puzzled,
Werner.
It has been decided that neither your panel designs nor my adaptations of the same are up to scratch Werner. Bow out gracefully my friend, I have... ;)
I just don't think it suits the logo Werner ... It's not miles out it's just a little "hard" and larger brand for the feel I get from stans brand ...
Therefore the pretence for me is in the fact that it looks as though it's trying to be a bigger brand product ... Less cottage industry ...
Not that that would be a problem ... But IMO it would need a new logo for it to work ...
Maybe a re-brand is what Stan needs ... The new product has the appearance of a higher end product than previous products ...
Another solution maybe to remove the logo from the front altogether ... Not a conventional solution but "bushmaster" is a strong enough product name to be used without the brand name to back it!
This wouldn't work if it was called somthing like an "m20" of course but IMO stans recent product name choices are solid enough to do such things ...
Beresford and the "24/192 passive blah blah blah" stuff could go on the back of the box ... Leaving the front panel to just have "Bushmaster" and the control symbols on the front.
That would make a strong statement ... But it might be more of a risky course of action in terms of brand recognition from outsiders ...
Of course stans product is never on shelves in shops ... So it might be doable ...
Cottage industry:
'An industry where the creation of products and services is home-based, rather than factory-based. While products and services created by cottage industry are often unique and distinctive given the fact that they are usually not mass-produced, producers in this sector often face numerous disadvantages when trying to compete with much larger factory-based companies.'
Why not mock that up Werner?
Maybe use a more solid font for bushmaster ... Something more more solid lines to match the little icons you have used
I don't think Stan is technically a cottage industry .. But there is certainly a feel of it ... You wouldn't get naim asking members of a forum to help design thier product front panelQuote:
Originally Posted by webby
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism
After all this Stan probably won't change a thing - but hey, we've all had fun playing designer either way.
That said this discussion has got me trawling through my font collection (1270 of them). Made it through about 600 before the word 'Bushmaster' started looking incredibly weird. Can continue if anyone is interested. Have been playing around with 'Beresford' as well but before I post those it would be good if Stan gave an indication of whether he would consider change to his logo - probably not I suspect which would be completely understandable.
Bear in mind these are out of context and some of the serif fonts probably wouldn't work with the existing Beresford font.
Below are the ones that jumped out at me as I skimmed through (although already don't like a few of them now I look back!). I threw in a few comic fonts for fun - ones that kind of said 'sharp toothed predator' to me.
Bear in mind the weight, tracking, kerning, size etc can all be infinitely adjusted - it's the feel of the font that I'm exploring. What does the font say about the device?
(The names of the fonts are in the filename).
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...illeniaUPC.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...aph_lanier.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...h_scissors.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...cratch_AOE.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste..._behaviour.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...ish_157_bt.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...europe_ext.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste..._ext_mixed.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...ultralight.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...ter_impact.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...ter_impuls.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...1_bld_cond.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...sans_light.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...onkey_fury.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...721_ext_lt.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...721_ext_lt.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...chet_mixed.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...r_trebucht.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...ityromanbt.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...aster_vdub.jpg
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...zurichcdlt.jpg
One word, foreshortening.
I agree that the font/typeface for "Bushmaster" needs refining somewhat, as the current proposal is a little too 'matter-of-fact'. Of the selection above, I like this one:
http://jamtoast.net/bucket/bushmaste...cratch_AOE.jpg
Marco.
+1 :)
.
Stick this one on the shelves of a mainland European High End Hifi Emporium, and folks will think it's a Burmester and you can add a couple of zeros on the price tag, Stan. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamtoast
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...mesterlogo.jpg
That's exactly what crossed my mind when I saw that Jerry!
The Beresford Foreshortening sq? I dunno. I didnt much care for Bushmaster but Foreshortening seems even worse. Dont you have something to do with brand management? How did you get that job then?Quote:
Originally Posted by sq225917
well, for me, looks wise, i much prefer the werner efforts, i think they are more stylish, especially the use of the symbols.
how many people want an iphone because they think it looks good? well if you have a product that looks good and sounds good then you are onto a winner (hopefully). of course saying that i'd still buy the bushmaster if it sounded good but looked like a bucket of shite.
Lol... Simon's being a bit too cryptic. I wish he would just spit it out and say what he means! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren
Marco.
FWIW my 2 penn'orth,
One problem with retaining brand identity is that, if carried too far, it can 'date' the product. Keeping the Beresford logo in it's original (usual) form is a good thing in my view but retaining the general design features of the original DACs is perhaps not so good, tending to 'date' them in the past.
Taking cars as an example, most of them retain some long cherished link to the past, Ford's name scroll, Rolls' R-R, Mercedes 3 point star etc but larger features were dropped as the product evolved, e.g. Vauxhall's signature bonnet flutes.
If I were Stan I would go for Werner's design with symbols and colours rather than lettering, but retain the Beresford logo. Stan is not a one product operation and further products will evolve we all hope. Werner's basic design principle could be the start of the new design basics and product identity could be built up from this base. IMO it has the advantage of looking modern and will therefore stand the test of time for the foreseeable future (rather than looking increasingly dated), will be recognised universally for what the symbols mean (Stan exports all around the world, not just the areas speaking English or using our scripts) and has the advantage of being and looking as though it has been professionally designed by someone who knows what he's doing, which it has. Take advantage of the effort that has been put into it by the ad hoc committee lead by Werner - be silly not to IMHO :) .
Cheers,
Dave.
I am not stuck to the logo design, so any creative suggestions are most welcome.
just noticed that the Bushmaster is now showing on Stan's web site
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/TC-7530DC.html
Aye just got an email from the man himself asking if I was still interested... Do bears do the proverbial in the woods?
Of course I am still interested Stan!
Russ
p.s. I like the aluminium symbol flavour of the DAC
Can anyone actually hear me?
This thread could put a glass eye to sleep ;)
Gary,
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear...ter_silver.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/bifrost.jpg
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/lyr.jpg
Werner.
I've taken the liberty of combining two of Werners ideas to show my favorite so far.
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3...textblack2.jpg
I think the use of symbols looks neater but feel that they will be too obscure and non intuitive to many users.
Along similar lines I think that labeling the sources 1 2 3 4 will be more intuitive than 1 2 1 2.
I'm really liking the reduction of the colours on the front panels. It looks far more professional and stylish. Just Black and Grey with blue lights looks much classier than Black, White, Red, Blue, Gold of the original.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Berghofer
Sorry Werner, you've lost me.
The Shiit looks simple, CLEAN and totally uncluttered, with it's plain front and artfully folded casework. Perhaps Stan can't go quite that far, and probably doesn't want to, but how about reducing the size of the lettering on the front of the Bushmaster to something very discrete?
May well be that all this messing around with front panels will hold up production :) What do you want, your own take on the panel, or a working DAC as quick as possible? :lol:
Gary - Werner just wants all kit to look like the Schiit stuff. He likes it, which he is entitled to, of course.
He's just comparing and contrasting the functional, rather old-fashioned Beresford look, with the Kool and trendy Schiit gear.
Obviously, any person with good taste, seeing the two designs juxtaposed, has to prefer the Schiit look. :rolleyes:
Yes, it's very trendy, very 'this year', and very :zzz: imho.
To be honest it can be in a Tupperware box for me as long as it sounds good...
:-)
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Adder
Ultimately, I do not care what my boxes look like as long as they work. Given the option though I prefer the industrial/laboratory equipment look. Like Nagra, or ARC.
Gary,
I don’t think so. Recently I asked you kindly to describe in a few words the “Beresford brand identity”. Instead of answering my request, you suggested to have a look at Stan’s gear and as an additional bonus you provided a link to Wikipedia — fortunately at least this link worked. So far the only person obviously found worth doing trying to describe his feelings and perception of Beresford products and their philosophy was Hamish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Actually you seem to have no idea about this legendary “Beresford brand identity”, but one thing you know for sure: It has to be kept intact and alive, and my design proposals just violate it.
You stated “its best to keep the design simple, clear and to the point”, and I felt free to match what you call “simple, clear and to the point” with photos from products which actually are designed this way. The prices for these products still are very reasonable and fair, but it’s obvious that their visual appearance is in a complete different, much higher league. By looking at gear designed like this, one expects that it also must be sounding excellent. In contrast, when looking at a big part of British HiFi gear, one wouldn’t expect more than just the power indicator light starting to glow the moment the unit is being powered on — assuming of course a brick-sized, high-performance external PSU is used.
To exaggerate this a little bit: certain British audio gear may sound very good, but it looks and feels as if it had been designed and assembled by amateur electronics handymen working from the garden shed. Their gear’s possible superior inner life and craftsmanship just is not recognizable from the outside, and more sensitive people might not feel invited to give gear looking that nasty even a try.
Nowadays even a small fish in a big pond needs professionally designed cases, web sites and printing matter to reflect the outstanding quality of his products in a credible, convincing way. It’s the Internet age, my dear; the days of the tinker’s weekly buddy meeting at the local pub are over. Schiit started as a company run by only two persons, but had a highly professional web site from day one plus a very clever marketing concept. It also helped a lot that both founders are well-known and respected names in the audio business.
To Jerry aka “Jandl100”: As an experienced Webzine Reviewer you certainly know that the company name is Schiit. So what’s the deal with misspelling it constantly? I’m convinced that even in a few years in the future Schiit’s current case designs still shall be recognized as outstanding, excellent and reduced to the maximum. Simple, clear and to the point, as Gary aka “Gazjam” prefers it, but unfortunately failed to demonstrate in a convincing way with his own proposals.
All just in my humble opinion, of course.
Werner.