Interesting . Please keep us posted on these Richard .
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Interesting . Please keep us posted on these Richard .
Will do Brian. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
My folks popped up for a visit today, bringing 'my' old Super Tablettes with them. Sadly, one of the tweeters hasn't survived - purely by accident obviously, I think on picking one of the speakers up, dad has put a thumb or finger into the grille and pushed the tweeter in. I ran a few tunes through them, swapping channels to ascertain any imbalance between each side, and can't really detect any real problems. However I will order up a new Scanspeak D2010 (still available than heavens!) as despite my best efforts with the sellotape/vacuum cleaner etc the dome just won't pop out. It's only 50 quid or so for a new one from Falcon Acoustics, in fact it may be worth getting a matched pair.
How do they sound? Bloody marvellous. Bass has real pitch, there's virtually no room reaction from them nor overhang. They're rich, yet perky and bright and vocal clarity - what the SuperTabs are famed for - is wonderful and so natural.
There's a very faint buzz from one speaker though, when music is played quietly (most noticeable on piano) but it can be cured by a quick but gentle 'flick' with a finger on the cone, after which it's clear as a bell. I'm putting this down to the fact that the ProAcs haven't had much use over the past few years, and certainly not at any volume to exercise the cones. If it doesn't clear over the next few weeks it'll be a quick trip to Wembley Loudspeakers to have the driver cleaned/checked out.
My friend had a pair of tablettes a few years ago. Wonderful speakers , which really came into their own when used with the partnering stands . BTW do you still have the Royds Richard . I'm a big fan having owned a pair of Minstrels . I now have a pair of A7s which I swap periodically with my Rega EL8s in my system .How do the 2010is compare with the Royds ?
<sucks through teeth> That's a really hard question to answer Brian. Many speakers came and went through chez Gromit when I had the Merlins (including Minstrels) and not one get near to what they could do with the musical message. Minstrels naturally came close, but sounded less couth - bags of fun of course - but still only 9/10 to the Merlins' 10/10.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
The 2010's, despite their lowly price, are more serious - perhaps even grown-up sounding. Having sold the Royds some months ago it'd be very difficult to compare them like for like in terms of tonality etc but in how they play music I feel our sonic memory is quite accurate. In this instance the Q's don't have that effervescent bounce - that feeling of listening to music with the brakes off - that good Royds give. However, for just over a Łton they're fantastic. :)
'That feeling of listening to music with the brakes off ' is a very interesting way of describing the character of the Royds , but very accurate methinks . That's the characteristic which attracted me to them , When I sold the Minstrels I owned several pairs of speakers but was ultimately unhappy with them all because I was looking for that elusive sound which you describe . The only speakers which came close were the Regas . I believe that there was a historical collaboration between Joe Ackroyd and Rega in the production of their speakers . Do you think the 2010is still need some running- in where things might improve ? incidentally I see Richard Dunn is offering a Royd speaker repair service over on the HFS .
Brian - the analogy really comes from playing a musical instrument, but I think it's possible to draw parallels with hifi. When I was having Clarinet lessons many years ago at the Royal College of Music, my teacher (Colin Courtney - God rest his soul) used to stress the importance of playing melody/dynamics with as little resistance as possible. Fight them with tension, and they will sound strangled, and be reflected in the final sound. Imagine the sound you are creating is a ball, hanging in the air, but it has zero mass. You can move it around at will - simply a thought will do it - and it will respond with no inertia. Now, imagine that ball is heavy - it needs a lot of effort to make it respond. It still looks the same as the massless one, in fact it will do the same things, but it isn't able to react in the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Guess which one the Royds were? ;)
So many speakers (and hifi systems) are the heavy ball - sure they sound ok, but they're musically clumsy, hard work and ultimately unrewarding. There's way too much tension in the musical muscles.
For years I've tried as much as possible to implement the above criteria when listening to kit - it doesn't always work, but it brings real joy when it does all click into place. When folk have heard my systems (mostly at Scalford really) it's been chosen and set up to fit the above description.
Well if you lot were regular readers or subscribers to What Hifi? like me - you would have known about these for a good few years! :lol: They're certainly well received elsewhere as well, and they look lovely too. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Don't believe anthing you read, & only half of what you see...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UK
Then you'll be ok :D
Just because some rag says they are good doesn't mean didley... Trust your ears, in fact I'd much rather trust any member on here than a magazine :cool:
Yup , I think I know what you mean Richard . Unfortunately every piece of hifi equipment is a compromise .
Richard, be interested to see how the tablettes compare to the kolts considering they have the same mid-bass driver. They are on my to do list at some point in the future.
Lol - you know I don't read that pish! :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UK
The only hi-fi magazine I read regularly now is HFN, which I subscribe to, and contains the sort of stuff that interests me :)
Marco.
The Tecchy's back up & running again, and wearing this little pup...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1/DSC01362.jpg
yeh i have lots of those pre 1973 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Aye, when hi-fi mags were hi-fi mags, eh dude? ;)
Oh, congrats on the Rega Carbon, Richard!
Marco.
Thanks Marco :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The Jelco's just arrived too yip yah!!! :)
Will have to get back to John as I don't think the cable he's supplied will fit as it has a straight connector, looks like the 750 needs a right-angled one. Will know when the adaptor plate arrives and I can get it bolted together.
Marvelous, hows the Carbon, come on first impressions, we all can't wait:D.
Edit, ah just spotted it in the other thread!
Nice one on the Jelco, Richard. As for the cable, I'm pretty sure that I used a straight one, when I had a Jelco. Pity you never thought to ask about tonearm cable reccos, before you went ahead and got one, as we'd have all said 'go for a Jannis'! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit
Marco.
Aye - mind you I looked at the price of them and I really don't want to fork out that much, not at the moment anyway. This is a purely 'get it working' sort of arrangement for the time being - the cable John sent me is a new Pro-Ject one which looks pretty good. Very nice quality plugs and a proper metal arm plug of decent weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
No worries, dude. I get that. At some point, though, you'll have to marry the Jelco with an 'old nail' - t'would be rude not to! ;)
Marco.
Abso-belly-lootely. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Just put an hour or so's use under the Carbon's tip and it does indeed sound pretty darn good. For example, playing Michael Brecker's first album and the track 'Nothing Personal' there's a repetitive E/F#/G acoustic bass line where the first 2 notes are played on the beat, the third is at a slight syncopation to colour the rhythm. However, the bass doesn't always follow the same rhymic pattern which adds interest. The Carbon picks out the plucked bass's natural decay quite beautifully and has great pitch definition with no unnatural bloom (one of my pet hates tbh) allowing the track to rip along.Quote:
Originally Posted by freefallrob
Sure, the ProAcs are helping here as they're quite dry at the bottom end but the Carbon is certainly helping here. I'm sure things will get even better once the Jelco's in place. :)
Hi Richard, glad the arm arrived today. You should be ok with the straight arm cable, the one below i did some time ago had one. keep me posted :)
Hi John,
I like the wooden record weight, shown in the pic. Do you sell that, and if so, what/how much is it? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
That's actually my record weight, made from solid Ebony. I will find out if I can get anymore made. Lovely is it not?
Indeed it is, John! I'd love one, as my arm board is made from solid ebony (a fab sounding material for audio purposes), so if you can get one made at a reasonable price, as long as it weighs around 360g (the weight of my current record weight), as I don't like high-mass weights or clamps, then you'll have a sale! :)
Marco.
Ok, let me do some homework. The lid wont go down on a Tech tho when its on but I never liked the lid anyway :)
That's good news John - I've just measured the full height of the arm and we should be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Touchstone Audio
Thanks also for sending the arm & cable so quickly - been absolutely great to deal with you. :thumbsup:
I never use the lid, so that's not an issue. PM me when you have some details :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Touchstone Audio
Marco.
My baby ProAcs - well, one of the anyway...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ps9f17b2a2.jpg
Oh, here's the other one...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ps4a4a9fe0.jpg
LOVE that old ProAc typeface!
Shame there's no midrange on later baby Pro-Acs - summat like an ELEVEN db suckout on the Tablette Signature I remember - and several db exaggerated saddle-back on the standard article.....
Stilol, makes up for modern amps not having a loudness switch :lol:
We're now Jelcofied. :)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ps3f8ddb8f.jpg
Looking lovely!
Is it sounding lovely?
What are the improvements over the standard arm?
:)
Hi Rob - thanks, it does look da bizz. :) Yes, the 750's a lovely looking bit of kit, and the finish on it is flawless as are the bearings which are amongst the most sensitive I've encountered in years. Balancing the arm to 'zero' once the cartridge is installed, give the headshell a very gentle tap with your finger and the arm will sway up and down for ages. This one's in virtually spotless condition too, with hardly a speck on it apart from the inevitable tightening collar marks on the pillar.Quote:
Originally Posted by freefallrob
How does it sound?
This is where things start getting a little more difficult. Is it better than the std arm? Yes, of course. By much? No. There is more detail, more focus, and less bloom to the sound (it does sound a fair bit drier). I had a brief 20 mins listen to the std deck before doing the arm-swap and less than 30 mins later the Jelco was playing away.
What worries me is the lack of dynamic contrast; it's sounding strangled, fuzzy - 'dirty' even, as though a veil has been thrown over the music. Could the cartridge be to blame? Perhaps - maybe the Carbon/std arm is a synergistic bulls-eye which I've discovered purely by accident. The sense of motion, drive, damn it interest has gone. Musical phrase shape has gone - there's no build-up of tension, nor its release in that phrase (think of a long paragraph where the punctuation or full stops have been removed and you'll get my drift). The music's gone, basically. It was there before, in small doses admittedly, but present nonetheless. The Carbon woke the std deck up rather nicely.
Does the Jelco deserve a better cartridge? Of course it does - this beast will take pretty much anything that can be thrown at it. But surely it will be able to eek out every ounce of performance from the Carbon which is a stiff little blighter so in theory should like a bit of mass.
Is the Sony ES amp's phonostage not helping? Maybe. But, and here was a surprise; Jerry very kindly offered me the use of his NC-psu'd Trichord Dino at Scalford this year and on MM the difference between it and the Sony's built in one was too close to call. Seriously. Unless I can get my hands on a good stand-alone phonostage to beg steal or borrow I won't be able to rule this out though.
Is this adding even more weight to the 'for heaven's sake do the psu/feet/bearing etc etc before even thinking about changing the arm' method of approaching the SL12? Looks like it.
I haven't lost hope yet though, I've a full morning at home tomorrow to get this bugger singing where I'll go over a full set-up once again. I've a sneaking feeling that the Jelco (in the same way my AO-upgraded RB251 did) is finding fault in the turntable itself, allowing too much of its standard-condition colours to show though which puts an interesting slant on things. It's also made me wonder how a fully-AO-fettled RB251 (with Johnnie's new bearings in particular) might sound on a full-blown Marco-spec 1210.
Well, this is all rather frustrating. Re-fitted and re-set the arm/cartridge this morning, taking absolute care over everything. Then had a play with different tracking weights and vta on the cartridge but cannot really inject any life into the system. I now have the opportunity to borrow another phonostage which will either rule out or blame my Sony amp.
It just sounds so dull and uninspiring. Sadly I don't really have the funds to start throwing another psu at the deck - not yet anyway - nor to spend out on a cartridge with more clarity.
Surely you shouldn't need to Richard. If the Techie sounded better, didn't sound strangled / dull etc with the STD arm and the Carbon then it must be purely an arm / cart synergy thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit
We know the arm works well on a Techie and nothing else has changed.
Think this is the case Mike - the Carbon was a nice'n'lively little thing in the std arm but it sounds disjointed/harsh with ploddy, almost thumpy bass in the Jelco. I'm going to stick with the arm though because it does leave scope in the future for a better, more demanding cartridge. A 103 beckons, but it would need a better phonostage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idlewithnodrive
Of course there's going to be a certain amount of expecation bias here, but the differences between the standard arm and the Jelco weren't as marked as I was hoping for.
Have you tried tweaking the arm and armboard mounting bolts? Maybe slackening them off a touch will help.
Got to be worth a try - I didn't tighten them too much on installation but may back them off then just nip them slightly. I am still leaning towards the theory (aka 'clutching at straws' :D ) that the new arm is uncovering some cracks in the otherwise standard turntable's sound which the Tecchy arm is papering over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuggie
Surely it's got to be the decent feet and mat route before cart etc ?
Richard , what you're describing is pretty much what I'm getting with mine ,and that's with a vantage psu ,bearing ,platter ,309 and 33EV !Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit
I'm starting to think its just the way the deck sounds ,bland and boring .
Hopefully a cheapish suggestion before you throw the baby out with the bathwater...
Use a lightweight Techie style headshell wit the carbon, if you're not doing this already and try for an ebony armboard, which I suspect this arm needs (Rega's too on one of these decks) - rigid but enough to offer better? hf absorption (he says, searching for possible reasons...)
Thanks Dave - ideas worth trying, certainly. Not sure the Jelly would balance out with a Tecchy shell as it's so light, being less than half the weight of the Jelco shell, but if I get time later will give it a go. The c/weight is quite close to the bearing housing as it is. Interestingly, when I had the 2M Black (what a gorgeous cartridge that is!) it sounded demonstrably better in the Technics shell vs the Sumiko HS12, using the same h/shell leads.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
There's plenty of inner detail going on here, and bass is firm, but there's a hardness to vocals/ride cymbal etc which isn't easy on the ears. The presence region has been given a little too much presence - and the ProAcs aren't really shrinking violets either (very different to the Ref 8's which I really don't like). Still love the wee things though. :)
The Jelco clearly has a good grip on proceedings, but I'm also wondering if the brand new arm leads are bedding in. Not that I'm a true believer in such things happening, or rather drastic change coming about because of it, but it's always a possible reason. Also, the electrical qualities of the wires (capacitance etc) may be a fair bit different to the std Technics and affecting the Carbon's performance.
All possibly shots in the dark but you've got to try. :lol:
A couple of hours' listening at decent volume this morning has me with the sneaking suspicion that it is a slightly uneasy cart/arm marriage. The Carbon was, as I said a while back, an absolute cracker in the Technics arm - synergy doing its thing very nicely indeed. :)
What arm lead are you using? If it's the pink Jelco Neglex, then I believe you may have your culprit - that Neglex is an awful, thick, dull sounding thing, in my experience of course. An Audio Origami arm cable solved the problem in fine style when I had my SA-750D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit
It is - although the sound I'm hearing, whilst not the polar opposite of your description, certainly doesn't lean that way. If anything it's quite light-weight, lacking body and gravitas - bright and a tad harsh aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuggie
I wouldn't rule out trying a different cable, but am very reluctant to start buying stuff to be honest. Could get expensive! :)
Have you tried using the oil damping Richard? In all honesty it does sound like an arm/cart mismatch, worth checking the numbers if you haven't already http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...anceCalculator
James - I haven't yet checked if there's any damping oil in the arm, but to be honest I'm not overly sure how to do this. I put the numbers into the VE calculator earlier today and they come up at just a smidge over 12Hz so whilst at the top end, there's nothing drastically out of range.Quote:
Originally Posted by jagdesign
I also see that the AT91 has a carbon cantilever - I was under the (false) impression that Rega had added this, or at least persuaded the big AT to do a run of them.
Yeah 12Hz isn't too bad.
You can check the oil bath by simply unscrewing the cap on top of the bearing housing and dipping a cotton bud or similar to check for oil. I filled mine with all the oil included then replaced the cap. I've read that how tight you have the cap effectively dials in how much damping you have, I can sort of see this working but am slightly sceptical. Nevertheless, using the oil in my case did seem to help the slightly overblown bass I was getting. Might be worth a shot?
:scratch:
Bland, boring and flat are the last words l would use to describre the Techie, at least with the standard arm.....................:cool:
Exactly the same as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan
As I see it, it pretty much has to be the arm / cart synergy. Just ain't happenin' dude :(