Do you feel you are being served fairly by British Hi-Fi retailers or do you feel you are being largely ripped off.
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Do you feel you are being served fairly by British Hi-Fi retailers or do you feel you are being largely ripped off.
I've put no because I do have a basic understanding of business. A lot of hi-fi dealers, especially the service-based ones (as opposed to the mere box shifters) are struggling.
It is not they who are ripping us off, it our lovely tax & spend/waste government for making this a very expensive country to live and trade in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
Everyone is subject to the same trading conditions in this country, so why does Hi-Fi retail have to have such rip off mark ups. No other industy but maybe furniture (but that is changing fast) and jewelry has it. The price a manufacturer charges a retailer (Not the likes of Richer Sound, but the independents) is *doubled* to the price he asks you for it!!!
The turnover in good service-based dealerships is rather low. You get what you pay for.
Computer or washing machine sellers don't have to give service!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
There is no excuse apart from the industry was talked into it by the flat earth mafia in the late 70' and 80's.
Originally everything was very simple.
1 a manufacturer made something.
2 he took it to wholesellers who put a 20% margin on it and sold it to retailers.
3 the retailers (Imhofs was a classic example) displayed and promoted it and put a 30% margin on it
4 end of 60's retail price maintenance was banned and the discounters appeared. That process promoted and generated great expansion in the market.
5 Linn and Naim saw a marketing niche (actually Julian just followed Ivor as Ivor needed him at that time and they marketed as siamese twins). The traditional retailers were going bust due to the discounters. So they were given *exclusives* with high profit margins (100% up or 50% down depending on how you look at it, and a promise that they would use blackmail and illegal control practises to make sure no one discounted) and an overkill marketing campaign linked to the emotional and intellectual (and in a small number of cases financial) hi-jacking of the magazine editors and writers.
That is how the hi-fi mafia was born, and every new sector of the market like valves coming in since has had to play the game or do no business.
Now the world is different and becoming more so. You now can do business without pandering to this overt corruption - the reason - the web - many thing from politics downwards is going to be able to dispence with the middle men, the on cost, the leaches who feed off *your* hard earned wages.
It depends who's position you look at it from.
1.That of a manufacturing company that where screwed by the industry structure.
2.The retailer trying to make a living, and cover ever increasing overhead and tax costs in a restrictive market,
3. The final customer, looking to see, hear, and use the stuff before he buys it.
I have no direct experience of the first, a little of the second, but in a different industry, and a fair amount of the third.
I keep being told by various companies that selling on the web is the way forward. You can buy it, and if you don't like it send it back, you pay only for the transport. In theory fine, other than lets say, I want to compare 3 amps at say £500.00. So I either have to pay for all 3 and get them to my home at the same time, or have one follow the other. I would prefer all at the same time, so I need to have 3x the cost price available at the time of purchase. I have to pay 3 x delivery fee's, plus 3 x return fee's, say £25 a box each way, so that £150 in transports cost to buy a £500 amp. Most couriers deliver between 8 and 5.30, so some one has to be at home to receive them. Will they all deliver on same day, or a weekend, will they hell, so that's either one or two days holiday gone to take delivery, another to send them back. How much is that- anywhere between £80 and £320 in lost wages on a low wage- lets half it £200, so £200 plus transport of £150, thats cost the customer £350 to buy a £500 pound amp, those margins don't look so silly do they? If we assume that the man selling the amp at £500 is not registered for VAT, but needs to be with the direct scheme, thats £80 ish- these £500 pound amps are soon going to be £1000 when all the costs are covered. I would rather use a day off to visit a retailer, compare how stuff looks and sounds and make my choice rather than have a box sent to me. All the internet sales route does is move the logistics problems- and point them straight at the paying customer.
And you don't get the holistic approach that makes your system actually play music.
Are we voting whether we are being ripped off but the 'Hi-Fi Industry' in general (as the thread title suggests) or the 'Hi-Fi Retailer' which is more specific (as the poll title suggests)???
:scratch:
Colin you are obviously an intelligent man and I completely agree with you. BUT it is early days in the revolution. Even though I have my disputes 'wiv der management' at wigwam, I still think it represents the future far more than here or PF and DEFINITELY not ZG. Reason - it has developed community. This is the future of the web, and has been my point in numerous past posts. It is not just selling on the web, that is a very small part of the equation. All hobby industry will or should develop this community, what is in the way of it - well the marketing men and retailers who pollute the web with their bullshit. There are many who don't and try to become part of community instead of trying to feed of it, and if they want to survive that is what they should do - have to do - to get goodwill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
The advice given and especially the bakeoffs at wigwam for me are the largest and strongest current finger pointing at the future. Head-fi in the US has similar. The customers *own* home will become the future retail point, but instead of being financially and marketing based, it will be information and community based. Groups of local enthusiasts who *want* to have like friends and people to help and help them. That is the future and if I have my way that is the way this forum will go as it has enormous potential as being the only one that hasn't had the management succumb to trough slurping.
It is the hi-fi mafia that set the rules for the game but the retailers just feed off it. In your terms it is they that gets yer money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
I can see, and understand what you want (hope) to achieve, and to be honest, anything that stops the march of the I thing, and the dreaded MP3 into the home of music fans needs to applauded and supported. The bake off system can be used and equally well abused by retailers, makers, and general muppets like me, and too an extent I am wary of them for that reason, but they could very well be a way forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
I think you also have to be equally aware of the latest and greatest phenomenon, that sweeps most of the boards, plus the follow my leader syndrome.
Have you considered having regional ''fan boy's'' that can borrow your kit to demo to other people in their homes (I'm not proposing to be one) as an adjunct to your e-bay site. It may be that it is a cost effective way to air your products in a friendly, non sales environment, among a group of similar minded music fans.
As for the wam, I am still a regular user of the place and to be honest a bit surprised at your trough comments. I know that they charge for trade users, but seeing as a number of us also contribute towards its cost just to use it, seemed a fair idea to me. Nowt for Nowt as we say, even on the net.
Good again Colin and exactly the discussion I wanted to see. Yes of course the guy at wigwam can ask for donations, it is either that or asking for membership fee (how many would still be members). The donation thing is for me a part of community, like bringing wine or beer to a bakeoff. The trough is sending an invoice to anyone he perceives as industry and demanding a £50 fee under the threat that if you don't pay you get banned and your products cannot be talked about, which happened to NVA - Beresford and others. There are many here who can confirm this who have received threatening PMs that they will be booted if they contyinue to discuss these products. That is the trough being used Colin. If I had been left to making a donation I would have done so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Your other points, yes of course the bakeoff system is open to corruption, and yes of course enthusiasts for your product become amatuer marketers, it is human nature, nothing is perfect. BUT it is up to the majority to pull in the over enthusiastic. I even discussed this aspect of it at my short stay at wigwam and PF about 18 months ago, and was flamed like you wouldn't believe by the £50 retailers and the amateur marketers. It could also even be corrupted to be like a Ann Summers :lolsign: or tupperware party. Is that what you want, I don't think so. It will find its own way as people will find ways to make it work if the marketers and sellers stay out of it. And yes sheep sydrome is again another problem at forums and I suppose potentially at bakeoffs. We have always had sheep which is why we always have wolves - natural selection.
Also if you wanted a half way house then users of product could become local reps on a commission or discount basis, and if this was a more professional industry like some then that could be the new retailing. But I feel this industry is different, people buy what they want if they are just left to hear it. Companies will succeed according to two factors 1 having product in the field to listen to 2 being better product. Natural selection then comes in and manufacturers cannot sit back and just rape their sheep and bullshit the market the way they are still doing even now.
I have put it in open domain, and will do again - If anyone organises a bakeoff through one of the established forums and wants me to loan product to compare with others I will willingly do it. I will not turn up to brow beat, lecture or offer a free lunch :lol: - just get on with it and tell me what you think.
This is good, anymore from anyone else?
Really? Give us a bloody chance. We've only been going 9 weeks!! :drinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
You have no problem Marco, you are allowing it to be discussed. People don't like chains, more and more will come here, especially when you start to attract the sheep 'cos they just always follow each other :lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
Selling on the web is mentioned above as the future. Yep, it's a whole new world. How many record shops are still around? I lived in San Francisco for a lot of years. That's a city that protects it's culture. Most of our older cities that were thought to ever have had a culture do. Elitism at it's finest. I know a cat in Idaho (parts of Idaho have pretty wealthy residents). He owns an audio salon. Sells the products that he admires. He also is a speaker builder. Markets online in places the this, at hifi shows and word of mouth. He sells his speakers direct. His speakers are handsomely finished and expensive. But you know what is cool? He also sells his designs in DIY form so the rest of us not in the neck of the woods of his local clientele can partake. You won't find a mass marketed item in his store except for maybe an accessory. I doubt that he will ever take his business public. I so respect his approach.
But when it comes to buying things like CD's or TV's, I buy like everybody else. I think the days of hi-fi salons are numbered except in exclusive markets. Such is life. But those of us who like finding our own way will always have avenues. Cause we're both creative and don't care to compromise. I don't see a problem myself. But, of course, we will have more choices if we have money. But we will never be tasteless.
Don't know if this is on point, just felt like sayin.
And well said :exactly:Quote:
Originally Posted by jimdgoulding
BUMP :bag:
C'mon more votes :mex:
Exactly.:youtheman:Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Threads like this make me angry. They'd serve some purpose if the people of Britain valued service at the point of sale, but by and large we don't. We don't like to see charges for service, so the cost of service gets wrapped up into the price of the goods.
There's room in the market for all different types of approach - direct sales works for some companies, distribution & retail for others. If you are a consumer and you you want to buy from direct sellers then great, go ahead. But don't bitch and moan because something you've set your heart on is only available from a store because the manufacturer or distributor deems that as an important part of how they do business. And please, if you can't afford something then that's no excuse for complaining about "rip-offs".
The pursuit of "cheaper everything" isn't necessarily the answer. I think it's great that some niche brands are available direct. It adds diversity to the market, but I don't want to buy all my Hi-Fi like that!
It would be better if we had a thread focusing the dealers who are screwing up the Hi-Fi industry. I'm pretty lucky. I found a dealer who knows what they're doing and who isn't afraid to express a strong opinion. If your only experience of dealers is the type who will say anything to get your cash then I can sympathise how folk would feel ripped off. So why not do something about that?!
If the service is poor and the dealer is only interested in your cash then get active. Tell them to change or they'll lose your custom. If things don't change then walk. It's that simple. You're next action is then to out the crap dealers. This should be done in a responsible way - no rants or childish bitching - this forum doesn't need a load of flak.
What prompted this was from another thread where the fact was stated that product in the UK is quite often twice the price here than in other markets like Singapore and the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
Well I have been to both and visited stores in both. The stores are bigger and cleaner, the staff are more skilled and intelligent, the facilities are better, the service is better and the *same* product, even some made in the UK are often half the price people have to pay here for them.
Justify that Mr Retailer.
I'm not an effing retailer.
Go buy your Hi-Fi from Singapore or the States then.
Then why does your sig say Chris Frost - trade member (dealer)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
I don't buy hi-fi - I make it!
Because I have a custom installation business, not that you bothered to find out before making your wise-ass cracks ;)
So what loudspeakers do you make then? :lol:Quote:
I don't buy hi-fi - I make it!
In the 90'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
Cube 1
Cube 2
Cube 3
Cubix
Cubix Pro
At some point Cube 1 / 2 and Cubix will go back into production.
Oh yes! and just to create a full house a turntable as well :ner: :gig:
There is a pic of it here with an embarrasingly young version of me.
This was my first attempt at direct UK selling, you will see parallels with what I think should happen now with the web and bake offs etc. It was fun but didn't draw in many sales. The hi-fi mafia had too mach control back then.
http://www.nene-valley-audio.com/fra...challenge.html
Exactly how did the HiFi mafia stop you making sales?
You were in peoples homes selling to them direct - no dealers, no distributors, no marketing men (unless you count your own company's efforts to reach an audience). :scratch:
Because they largely had become a herd of sheep, brainwashing was rife due to magazines, reviewers and retailers (der mafia) at that time. People were scared to trust their ears or make their own decisions unless they had one of the selected few with golden ears wiggling their foot up and down at the appropriate moments. It still happens now but at last customers are laughing at them. Anyway I was very limited in what I could do myself both in time and distance and our dealers were too lazy to get involved. It was a bit of lateral thinking that didn't work, that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
You keep trying don't you, not much success so far, you really should do your homework. So what happened to your laughter about speakers, huh. Acknowledge when you are wrong
No need to be quite so abrasive Richard.
He gets back what he is giving, read the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
He has a bee buzzing around his head, he is looking for angles, ways to attack, little inconsistencies in words. If you play that game I think it is right for him to accept it when he sticks his foot in it.
Breath Richard, breath......
I was interested in what you had to say originally in the other thread, but you were so rude and dismissive when I first asked a question that it took me aback somewhat. Then you persisted in the same aggressive manner, so I thought "up yours".Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
So far, nothing in your approach since has convinced me otherwise that your earlier comments were out of character. :(
Welcome back Ashley, at least he was polite.
Sadly, I think he has well and truly taken his ball home with him!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
:(
I think you don't understand, I breath very well in fact it is part of my training, as a member here can verify. This is about reading energy and responding to it, it is not about anger, which is completely fruitless in this situation. It is about the mirror. You mirror someones energy back at them, overtime it wears them down and they give up. A good rant is pantomime anger, this is different it is just game playing. The anger is in the initiator in this game not the responder. I have not initiated in any of these posts just responded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
Being versed in the Jedi arts you are perceptive enough to read what is going on. It is a game, you have a choice, join in and play, or let them play with themself :eyebrows: I chose to play.
I will admit to anger though when it comes to the way this industry has been exploited and defiled over the last nearly 30 years, but you can even use that constructively as long as you use it instead of it using you.
Apologies to those of a 'sensitive disposition' !
What a fucking perfect answer!!!! :youtheman:
I really like 'the cut of your jib'. <Doffs cap>
So this little discussion :lolsign: has all been about you judging my character, well that is about as full of it as it gets. I hope you think it was worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Not for all of us.... (scroll up a bit) :)
I was addressing Chris not you. I don't find you offensive or aggressive in the slightest. I am no role model for anyone though, I am just a cantancarous old git who has done toooo many strange things in my life to take anything or anyone too seriously. You on the other hand have great possibilities, get your obviously perceptive mind going on what makes music, where music and energy meet. How our perception of music is a purely energetic process, for want of a better expression it *is* "the force" personified. Anything to do with energetic awareness cannot be fully intellectualised which is why the naysayers are so prominent in the subjective argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
Hearing and feeling are two different things, it is the hearing - the music that is the stimulus, it is the bodies energetic system that responds to give you the pleasure. Basically Hi-Fi listening is a form of non sexual masturbation.
Your soldering iron has the same potential as the maestros baton. So get weaving with it.
Yes Richard, I know you were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
But I still admire a man who says what he means and means what he says! Hence the doffed cap!
I also understand your comments on the understanding of the importance of 'breathing', it's a pity so many others do not! ;)
Roll model?... you may be supprised!.... But I guess that's for each to discover for themselves?
Brilliant, I would much prefer to be a roll model than a role modelQuote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
I forgot :rolleyes::rolleyes:
<shrugs>... yeah well, I type like a tw@t! :lolsign:
Anyway, I blame all the 'slurp spiders' (have you seen em all?!!)... they make me nervous!
Also... stop 'viewing poll'... Beavis and Buthead have left the building!
Some intersting points raised here. Steve was spot on when he mentioned about the cost of running a business in this country. We started out working from a 12 foot square shed in the garden, it was fine for the first couple of months but we outgrew it quickly. We now have very cheap premises - cheap being a comparative term. Outgoings include rent, business rates, ground maintenance charges, building insurance, public liability insurance, stock insurance, internet access, web hosting, phone, mobile phone, advertising, cost of running a vehicle, licence to allow us to store waste electrical items, licence to allow us to transport waste electrical items, the list goes on. People look at what we sell stuff for and what we buy stuff for and think they know what our profit is - they don't - they know our gross margin, the profit is only a small part of that.
We try to offer stuff at a reasonable price, we do our best to offer the best possible customer service. I know we are not your average dealer but can well understand the challenges faced. The cost of doing business in this country is extremely high, blame the government and greedy local councils rather than your struggling hi fi dealer.
There, can of worms stirred :-)
Dave.
So Linn and Naim were the hifi mafia ?
Well my Linn dealer came to my house one evening, installed the components, tested them to make sure all was ok and then explained everything to me. 18 months later he returned to do the upgrades in going active. Spent a total of about 7 hours of this in his own time. Of course the HUGE markup on the Linn gear goes towards this but I'm happy it did, he did a much better job than I would have.
I recently purchased a cart and step-up from Japan. Couldn't buy either component in this country and for me that's where the internet has the advantage.
as for the bake-offs, well having attended many over on the Wam I've yet to rush out and swap any of my components for any used in a bake off. Instead I've heard lots of great new music, and subsequently purchased lots, had a good chat with others about hifi and music and generally had a good time. Would I trust these over an hour at a dealership - absolutely not, and, yes, I've been to a bake off where some one from the industry has taken control.
forums are great, they allow you to communicate with like minded people and in some cases allow you to find out about new components and music, but there is a lot of forum fads and fashions and just as much ignorance.
The future isn't quite on the internet yet, thankfully.
Thats fine you are just one of the great brainwashed, you will wake up eventually. The whole set up thing was a deliberate tactic, it tied you in psychologically into the process. NLP worked on the dealer and his NLP worked on you. Common sense would mean buying a turntable that didn't require it, though you couldn't listen to it let alone buy one. You are a marketing mans paradise my friend and being an idiot for a large number of years means you have invested yourself in the process, you can't back away, it is like leaving a cult.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffo104
Read the threads on the Technics 1210 it might help you break the hold.
Richard, I've heard enough Technics decks to still feel the need to keep my nice non-Linn deck thanks very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Was I brainwashed ? I don't think so. I had never actually heard of Linn when I went in to the dealership, I was very new to hifi and after 3 months of visiting dealers this was the first time I actually had a chat with the dealer beforehand who let me explain what I was after. I was happy to make the purchase.
By the way I've had the pleasure of listening to one of you passive pre-amps a couple of time in Bake offs over the last few months, one owner decided to purchase it after hearing it at a bake off, and I've subsequently heard his passive pre at two other bake-offs.
You are quite right that the bake-off is a very good medium to allow you to hear lots of kit, I ould say 2 out of 3 systems your pre made a very good improvementand it was a good learning curve for me.
Brainwashing isn't just done by dealers of certain equipment, forums are just as susceptible to it, it's human nature.
Sorry I was a little hard on you, obviously you do listen with at least a degree of open mind. I am just up riding my hobby horse, and getting caried away on the sound of my own voice, a very easy thing to do. This is and has been a slow moving revolution for the last 5 years or so. I just feel that if the runes being thrown at the moment means a one or two year recession then the process will accelerate. My point is that if retailers didn't exist then you would have to rely on fellow enthusiasts and manufacturers, that process would immediately mean you would be paying half as much on average for you specialist hi-fi than if you *have* to buy it through a retailer. Absolutely no disadvantage as most set up things are common sense and like minded people can help online. Peoples minds get set into a *think* so they cannot see hi-fi life without retailers, but without them and a common sense attitude from the manufacturer a £10K system cost £5k.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffo104
Richard, I sincerely hope you are not one of thse individuals who seems to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. A decent dealer adds value to your purchases that exceeds his markup. Remember with decent hi-fi that enables you to hear and enjoy more of your music, the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts.
I can think of two dealers that genuinely add value to your hi-fi purchases:
Coherent Systems, Malvern Hills
The Audio Works, Cheadle
There are others.
LOL!
I can certainly think of some that detract from the value too. :lol:
Richard,
Would you shop online for a mortgage or a pension or use an Independent Financial Advisor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
How do they do that? by adding extra components or better components? by redesigning the product for you?
This just nonsense, they add nothing, but if you are lucky you may get a bit of *service* from them.
They are retailers, their only purpose is to sell to you and take your money, and make you think you get something in return. It is largely smoke and mirrors. Coherent makes things so he is fine doing that, perhaps he should make more things.
It depends, but at least they have been trained instead of 16 year old minimum wage idiots and brain washed bullshitters that populate a large proportion of British Hi-Fi shops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy