View Full Version : The Price Of Political Innuendo...
First off, my apologies for the political nature of this post, but the situation in Arizona has upset and shocked, but not surprised me today...
Below is a transcript of an email I have sent to Sarah Palins political campaign office today:
"Dear Sarah,
Although I don't consider myself to be an overtly political animal, I, like many others in my position, have a vested interest in how domestic and foreign politicians conspire to shape the destiny of the world. I am a British citizen by birth with no immediate family ties to the United States. I do, however, carefully study the political scene both at home and abroad, using diverse means to acquire the knowledge I seek to help me understand why the world is the way it is. It is thirty five years since I became politically aware. During that period the Western political system that has disappointed and shocked me more than any other belongs to the United States Of America.
Sadly, certain individuals in our society have become dramatically intolerant of those who don't share their ideals. Although this is true throughout the world, it is becoming overtly so within the US political system. I have observed many US political campaigns over the years, albeit Congressional, Senatorial or Presidential, and the common term that binds them all together is 'Machiavellian confrontationalism'. It is little wonder to me that websites such as Wikileaks have sprung into being as a result of this issue. The world needs people such as Julian Assange and Michael Moore to keep us all honest. Now, a little competition is very healthy, but in extremis it can lead to the injury and death of those we seek to serve and protect, and now, on this very day, my musings have become a horrific reality. I would question the wisdom of your campaigns use of the word 'Target', and the associated use of gunsight graphics on your Facebook webpage to highlight the States of your political adversaries. This is not a war, it is an election campaign. Please respect it as such.
Sincerely
David F Saunders"
I truly believe there is a valuable lesson to be learnt in regards to this tragic event. It is that our actions and words can have serious consequences... :peace:
I am afraid that while the USA continues to allow weapons to be freely owned by all and retains the use of capital punishment it will remain a barbaric state in my mind.
That is my perception of the situation too Martin. I could have written a lot more, but I was a little worried it might lead to a ban... :eyebrows:
I will post the reply, should I receive one... ;)
I am afraid that while the USA continues to allow weapons to be freely owned by all and retains the use of capital punishment it will remain a barbaric state in my mind.
'barbaric' is a bit strong isn't it, Martin? If the USA is barbaric then what word would you use to describe Iran or Saudi Arabia where people are stoned to death for commiting adultery?
I've visited the USA many times, wonderful place, never had any trouble and the people are very polite, friendly and civilised.
'barbaric' is a bit strong isn't it, Martin? If the USA is barbaric then what word would you use to describe Iran or Saudi Arabia where people are stoned to death for commiting adultery?
I've visited the USA many times, wonderful place, never had any trouble and the people are very polite, friendly and civilised.
The USA is a strange beast, to think of it as a single country doesn't work...
Politically there's most definitely a split which almost harks back to the civil war...west coast, east coast, northern states mostly 'Democrats', the rest are far more 'Republican'/bible belt idiots.
I spent about 6 years there in the 80s & 90s, NYC and Silicon valley, for every hour you drive away from the coast you travel back in time 10 years, as the average IQ dwindles away.
I doubt that Palin's staff will be able to understand your email, never mind respond to it...;)
The USA is a strange beast, to think of it as a single country doesn't work...
;)
Yeah, that's true enough. I quite like the backwoods parts - those little towns in the middle of nowhere with a Main Street like something frozen in time from the 1950s. They always have a Diner that does 'proper' hamburgers:)
Techno Commander
09-01-2011, 14:50
Best keep an eye out for the black helicopters.
Yeah, that's true enough. I quite like the backwoods parts - those little towns in the middle of nowhere with a Main Street like something frozen in time from the 1950s. They always have a Diner that does 'proper' hamburgers:)
I played cricket for Santa Clara (in the heart of silicon valley) in the early 90s, half our team were Asian IT guys, one lad had represented India at ODI level, so no mugs...
We had an annual friendly fixture against Reno (nevada), we were playing at a collage campus in Reno, and the bypassing locals could be seen doing visible double takes at our Asian players...that's the 90s!!! and only one state in from California!!!
What made the game even more interesting was that the captain of the Reno team was Joe Loss's son (the old band leader), who's own band were the resident house band at the 'Mustang Ranch'...a house of very ill repute...the after game drinks were held there...a very interesting night ;););)
Jac Hawk
09-01-2011, 15:31
The USA is a strange beast, to think of it as a single country doesn't work...
Politically there's most definitely a split which almost harks back to the civil war...west coast, east coast, northern states mostly 'Democrats', the rest are far more 'Republican'/bible belt idiots.
I spent about 6 years there in the 80s & 90s, NYC and Silicon valley, for every hour you drive away from the coast you travel back in time 10 years, as the average IQ dwindles away.
I doubt that Palin's staff will be able to understand your email, never mind respond to it...;)
Me too mate, and you're right going from one state to another can be like going from one country to another.
In my opinion most Americans are decent people, however it is extremely evident that they are a capitalist society, and there is a big devide between the have's and the have not's, people get so desperate to survive that they turn to illegal means of making money, which by it's very nature demands them to be 'tooled up'.
My girlfriend is from South Carolina, and at the state capital building they still fly the confederate flag there, which astounded me, but then the state is filled with 'good ole boys' who still see a north south devide, in Columbia SC there is a resteraunt that up until about 10 years ago wouldn't serve black folks.
To me though the biggest problem they have is their lust for guns, my girlfriend used to have a gun, and i asked her once, why have a gun in the house? she answered to protect myself. In my opinion they need to outlaw the owning of guns over there, it's a beast that's out of control
if you make firearms illegal you just create a situation where only the bad people have access to them. Stricter gun control would not have prevented the incident referred to in the OP.
Besides, the right of the citizens to bear arms is in the Constitution - the principle being that the individual is more important than the State and that the State exists to serve the people and not the other way around.
If the State fails in its obligations or starts to act outside it's remit the people have the right to overthrow the state - which is how the original colonists justified the Revolution.
if you make firearms illegal you just create a situation where only the bad people have access to them. Stricter gun control would not have prevented the incident referred to in the OP.
Besides, the right of the citizens to bear arms is in the Constitution - the principle being that the individual is more important than the State and that the State exists to serve the people and not the other way around.
If the State fails in its obligations or starts to act outside it's remit the people have the right to overthrow the state - which is how the original colonists justified the Revolution.
'Not from my dead hand!' as Chrlton Heston would say, have a watch of 'Bowling for Columbine', it's very interesting...
Because of their legality it's so much easier for the firearms to fall into the wrong hands, and these aren't just hand guns...I was stuck at work (in Brooklyn) one Friday night because a rival 'crack' gang had done a 'drive by' at the local subway station, with Uzi's!!! Over 30 people were shot!!!!
People go mad occasionally, it's best they don't have a gun in the house when it happens...look what happened in my county of Cumbria last year, thank god it was only a pistol and shotgun...
The problem Macca is that the Constitution these days means, to use an American term, 'Diddly Squat'. The US government lies to its people on a daily basis. Take the current Wikileaks fiasco for instance. They are trying to force Twitter to release personal information concerning Julian Assange, an Icelandic MP and various others. These are very scary times. Incidentally, I'm not just on a US government bash here, ours isn't much better...
'barbaric' is a bit strong isn't it, Martin? If the USA is barbaric then what word would you use to describe Iran or Saudi Arabia where people are stoned to death for commiting adultery?
More barbaric? Seriously, I know and have travelled to many parts of the USA and it's a wonderful country, but the population for the most part are blinkered and poorly educated. They are very religious on the whole and speak of violence towards criminals and the rest of the world with little sense of balance.
What can you call ritualised state murder using electricity or chemicals other than barbaric?
I'll leave it at that as I know others do not necessarily share my view and I don't want to get deep into a political or religious discussion here on AoS.
Best keep an eye out for the black helicopters.
Lol yeah. They've started on the Red Wing Blackbirds already, it'll be mutilated Cattle falling outta the sky next... :lolsign:
I'm not just on a US government bash here, ours isn't much better...
Thanks to a combination of Thatcher and Blair :steam:, our government is merely the European wing of the US government...oh except we don't even have a constitution!!!
That's enough from an old socialist... ;)
'Not from my dead hand!' as Chrlton Heston would say, have a watch of 'Bowling for Columbine', it's very interesting...
...
Yes I've seen it. I wouldn't use the word 'honest' and 'Michael Moore' in the same sentance and I don't like him or his politics.
Yes I've seen it. I wouldn't use the word 'honest' and 'Michael Moore' in the same sentance and I don't like him or his politics.
He may well be self serving, he may not be pleasant, but one cannot deny the string of facts in his movies...
He may well be self serving, he may not be pleasant, but one cannot deny the string of facts in his movies...
I watched Roger and Me when it first came out, thought it was brilliant. Then I saw a critique of the same film that questioned a lot of the 'facts' that Moore presented and I'm afraid he lost all credibility with me. Why do crusaders for truth and justice always feel the need to overstate their case?
He may well be self serving, he may not be pleasant, but one cannot deny the string of facts in his movies...
To be fair, he is Americas conscience. He comments on stuff most US citizens wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I love the way the US right wing treat social medicine the same way they look at communism. I'm never sure whether to grin or shudder...
I watched Roger and Me when it first came out, thought it was brilliant. Then I saw a critique of the same film that questioned a lot of the 'facts' that Moore presented and I'm afraid he lost all credibility with me. Why do crusaders for truth and justice always feel the need to overstate their case?
It's the nature of the film industry, sensationalisation works...they have to get a budget too!
I doubt Fahrenheit 911 would have been released had any of the facts surrounding the then president Bush, and his cronies been in doubt, he'd be languishing in prison now, probably being water boarded...
To be fair, he is Americas conscience. He comments on stuff most US citizens wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I love the way the US right wing treat social medicine the same way they look at communism. I'm never sure whether to grin or shudder...
'Play the man not the ball'...a great phrase from 'Yes Minister' ;)
It's the nature of the film industry, sensationalisation works...they have to get a budget too!
I doubt Fahrenheit 911 would have been released had any of the facts surrounding the then president Bush, and his cronies been in doubt, he'd be languishing in prison now, probably being water boarded...
The Bush family are not exactly a difficult target to hit, though:lolsign:
The Bush family are not exactly a difficult target to hit, though:lolsign:
Obviously not enough people watched it then, as the fecker got re-elected!!!
Beechwoods
09-01-2011, 19:12
Moore's film on US Healthcare was banned in Cuba, because it painted such a rosy picture of the Cuban health system, the Cuban government feared it would cause trouble there, because so few had access to the 'state healthcare' that was portrayed in Moore's movie! I think he's become a victim of his own success, and therein lies madness.
I too was concerned by Palin's adversarial campaign imagery, and it may have had a bearing on the choice of target in the recent Arizona outrage, but the person who carried out the attack was clearly unhinged. Mainstream politicians of all stripes need to think carefully about the way they influence people, but this guy was a timebomb anyway. The US is a big continent, it's a surprise there aren't more incidents like this, just by dint of population size.
There was an interesting article about the alleged perpetrator here, today : http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/youtube-videos-of-ar.html
One of the greatest dangers we face is the intolerance to others that have a different view or a different way of life, this seems to be a world wide issue
Jac Hawk
09-01-2011, 20:58
What gets me with Yanks (it's a lot easier than typing Americans so forgive me if i'm not P.C) is that, and my girlfriend is in this catagory too, terorism only became important enough to them after 9/11, there are lots of irish americans that contributed to the I.R.A back in the day, something my girlfriend either didn't know or turned a blind eye to, that sort of double standard realy gets me steamed up.
As a whole I would say America is a very insular society, they would like the rest of the world to run like it does in the states and in the words of George W Bush
''If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.''
Below is a transcript of an email I have sent to Sarah Palins political campaign office today:
The use of terms like target, aiming and gunning outside of the context of actual firearm discharge is common and widely excepted. To suggest that these terms used in a political or business context was in any way responsible for the actions of crazed killer is quite frankly reprehensible. Whatever one may think of Sarah Palin's politics, faith or persona the woman had nothing whatsoever to do with this tragedy.
I hope your letter gets put in the bin where it belongs. It's people like you who are responsible for politics being the shallow, small-minded, reactionary pantomime that it is.
Beechwoods
10-01-2011, 19:16
Palin's staff removed the offending graphics immediately after this kicked off... I'm sure they'll be more circumspect in the future. 'Shallow, small-minded and reactionary' cuts both ways.
The use of terms like target, aiming and gunning outside of the context of actual firearm discharge is common and widely excepted. To suggest that these terms used in a political or business context was in any way responsible for the actions of crazed killer is quite frankly reprehensible. Whatever one may think of Sarah Palin's politics, faith or persona the woman had nothing whatsoever to do with this tragedy.
I hope your letter gets put in the bin where it belongs. It's people like you who are responsible for politics being the shallow, small-minded, reactionary pantomime that it is.
I will not justify this post with any reply other than this... :ner:
I'm sure they'll be more circumspect in the future. 'Shallow, small-minded and reactionary' cuts both ways.
You're missing the point. We get the politicians we deserve.
You're missing the point. We get the politicians we deserve.
Then there is hope. My point is that we should all try to respect one another. You are right Colin to a point, we do get the politicians we deserve as a population. No government can represent the entirety of an individuals hopes and beliefs, in that respect Democracy is not perfect, it can only ever be a compromise. But if we, as individuals, demonstrate respect for those whose opinions differ from our own, then we are at the very least walking the right path...
Reid Malenfant
10-01-2011, 20:43
Old saying, from roman times i believe...
Divide & conquer...
3432
That's all you are getting from me on the subject :cool:
Old saying, from roman times i believe...
Divide & conquer...
3432
That's all you are getting from me on the subject :cool:
Regarding the subject matter of this thread, you Sig is very apt methinks ;)
Oh I don’t know; eliminating the opposition seems to have worked well in some systems ;)
Democracy is not perfect
Or in the case of America, perhaps not even a very good idea?
Beechwoods
10-01-2011, 22:13
Some would say non-existent. We get the politicians who can afford it, would be even more apt than those we deserve. Not content with building golf-courses over people's homes, even Donald Trump wants a crack at the top spot now.
Or in the case of America, perhaps not even a very good idea?
Who can say, and with what system should it be replaced? To use a metaphor, mankind is still in puberty and has yet to reach maturity. As individuals, we can help to some extent by respecting our fellow men. Maybe I'm being idealistic, but my philosophy has always been to treat others as I wish to be treated. It has worked for me for the most part...
Reid Malenfant
10-01-2011, 22:31
Maybe I'm being idealistic, but my philosophy has always been to treat others as I wish to be treated. It has worked for me for the most part...
It tends to work for me also ;)
I really didn't want to comment again, but that sums it up for me as well...
I'll leave politics to others :cool:
First off, my apologies for the political nature of this post, but the situation in Arizona has upset and shocked, but not surprised me today...
Below is a transcript of an email I have sent to Sarah Palins political campaign office today:
"Dear Sarah,
Although I don't consider myself to be an overtly political animal, I, like many others in my position, have a vested interest in how domestic and foreign politicians conspire to shape the destiny of the world. I am a British citizen by birth with no immediate family ties to the United States. I do, however, carefully study the political scene both at home and abroad, using diverse means to acquire the knowledge I seek to help me understand why the world is the way it is. It is thirty five years since I became politically aware. During that period the Western political system that has disappointed and shocked me more than any other belongs to the United States Of America.
Sadly, certain individuals in our society have become dramatically intolerant of those who don't share their ideals. Although this is true throughout the world, it is becoming overtly so within the US political system. I have observed many US political campaigns over the years, albeit Congressional, Senatorial or Presidential, and the common term that binds them all together is 'Machiavellian confrontationalism'. It is little wonder to me that websites such as Wikileaks have sprung into being as a result of this issue. The world needs people such as Julian Assange and Michael Moore to keep us all honest. Now, a little competition is very healthy, but in extremis it can lead to the injury and death of those we seek to serve and protect, and now, on this very day, my musings have become a horrific reality. I would question the wisdom of your campaigns use of the word 'Target', and the associated use of gunsight graphics on your Facebook webpage to highlight the States of your political adversaries. This is not a war, it is an election campaign. Please respect it as such.
Sincerely
David F Saunders"
I truly believe there is a valuable lesson to be learnt in regards to this tragic event. It is that our actions and words can have serious consequences... :peace:
:lol::lol:You are falling into a big trap!
This guy has been stalking her long befores Sarah was governer,The shooter Mr. Lofner is a lefty and has nothing to do with the tea party or the conservetive movement at all.
He is simply a mentaly ill person upset with a polition he felt dissed him.
And he got revenge.
He is a sick and twisted person and only he is responcable.
Where was the outrage when Regan was shot? (Democrats called for his head and where happy).
Where was the cry for civility when the Dems openly wished assaination on Gorege Bush?
The whole thing is being politisized to help Obama and his party look like victums.
Beechwoods
10-01-2011, 22:48
I was waiting to see what our US friends would have to say on this subject! I'm not sure that Mr. Loughner was so much a Lefty, than just completely bonkers.
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/10/former-friend-on-jar.html
That is my perception of the situation too Martin. I could have written a lot more, but I was a little worried it might lead to a ban... :eyebrows:
I will post the reply, should I receive one... ;)
Funny,almost every home is armed and crimes are stopped every day by home owners,that never makes the news but 1 ass with a screwed up head dose something like this and it's world news for a year.
That is barbaric,not being trusted to protect your family and own self is barberic!
That is surftum!
You're missing the point. We get the politicians we deserve.
You don't get away with that one! No right-minded person wants to be a politician. What we get is the effluent.
Ah yes, I see what you mean. We DO get the politicians we deserve :)
I was waiting to see what our US friends would have to say on this subject! I'm not sure that Mr. Loughner was so much a Lefty, than just completely bonkers.
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/10/former-friend-on-jar.html
He was in fact both,big interviews with his class mates today.
He was very upset about a vote to over turn Obama care,he also has been fallowing MRS. Giffords for menny years.
Do a little reading.
Here is a compalation of articals from the Drudge Report.
http://www.drudgereport.com/
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/01/jared_loughner_alleged_shooter.php
Beechwoods
10-01-2011, 23:22
Thanks for the links Jeff.
No right-minded person wants to be a politician.
I believe that the desire to become a politician should automatically exclude you from becoming one.
and with what system should it be replaced?
I'm not sure but it doesn't seem to me a wise idea to let the average American decide who runs the country. Where is the logic in that? What does he know about what it takes to run a country? Do you think BP or Intel would let the public vote on who ran the company? Would they be in any way qualified to do so?
:lol::lol:You are falling into a big trap!
This guy has been stalking her long befores Sarah was governer,The shooter Mr. Lofner is a lefty and has nothing to do with the tea party or the conservetive movement at all.
He is simply a mentaly ill person upset with a polition he felt dissed him.
And he got revenge.
He is a sick and twisted person and only he is responcable.
Where was the outrage when Regan was shot? (Democrats called for his head and where happy).
Where was the cry for civility when the Dems openly wished assaination on Gorege Bush?
The whole thing is being politisized to help Obama and his party look like victums.
My motives for sending the email and starting this thread are not political Jeff, they are humanitarian. If the roles were reversed and it was Sarah Palin who was the one lying in hospital under the same circumstances, my email would have been sent to Miss Giffords. I may not agree with Mrs Palins political views, but she has a right to promote them, as does Miss Giffords, however it should be done responsibly. You also can't deny that there have been far too many incidences of aggressive rhetoric and personal slurs bandied about by both sides during the mid-term elections. Most decent minded people find it obscene. Add a troubled mind and the legal ability to carry a concealed weapon and tragedy can certainly ensue...
As for your last sentence, Miss Giffords is a member of Obama's party and is most certainly a victim. Your statement in itself would appear to be politically motivated... :scratch: Surely, the facts here are that violent rhetoric can beget violent actions... :doh:
Forgive my ramblings, but I'm trying to make sense of this situation as the whole thing has left me feeling sick to my stomach, and to attempt to rationalize it is truly obscene. Personally, I couldn't take a life under any circumstances... :brickwall:
Forgive my ramblings, but I'm trying to make sense of this situation as the whole thing has left me feeling sick to my stomach, and to attempt to rationalize it is truly obscene. Personally, I couldn't take a life under any circumstances... :brickwall:
Just to help you digest this for what it is...
Sarah and both her daghters have been under constaint political attack because of there way of life and belifes.
The add you speak of had absolutly nothing to do with Miss Gifford at all other than she was in for a tight race.
It was an age old add used by polations from both sides just useing targets instead of a big X,due to Sarahs gun slinging image painted in a negative way by the democrats SHE WAS ONLY TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK FOR HER IN A SITIRICAL WAY.
The target was for political defeat.
She is allways being smeared as a gun toateing halfwit,the add was meant to play back on that smear as (targeting for defeat by VOTEING THEM OUT)!!
Heres the add.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html
The Democrates have been very cruel to her and her family for no good reason other than she is conservative.
There has been NO link,in any of the blogs,youtube videos, or forums by the shooter that link Sarha or anything she has said to him.
He was mad because after years of calling Miss. Giffords office,following her every time she spoke publicly and shouting out stuped crazy comments,she ignored him and moved on.(Dissing him).I personally wonder if he didn't have some weird crush on her.
The Dems are once agein capitolizing on a tragity,Diane Finstine is allready screaming for even more gun control .
The Democrats have such a bad image right now they will try anything.One commented just after the last election that Obama needed a Oklahoma city bombing like event to bring him close to the American people as it worked well for Bill Clinton. Guess he got his chance.
Google some of the mean things said about Sarah Pallon and the attacks on her family,the internet is full of them.
I wish Miss. Gifford a speedy recovery and am sad the Republican Federal judge was killed too but you probably didn't know that also Miss. Gifford was what we call a Blue Dog Democrate and had freinds on both sides of the isle.
I pray she comes back 100% and returns to congress passing a bill to help us treat the mentaliy insaine instead of just letting them wonder the streets till something like this happens.
The press here will distort facts to divide people,advance there agenda and they are all owned by just a few people now,very little free press going on here now.
Personally, I couldn't take a life under any circumstances...
Amen to that. There was a documentary last night on death row in Texas. I found it so upsetting that I stopped watching it half way through. It's not that I empathised with the convicted murderers, I didn't at all. It was the ritual nature of the production-line slaughter. We should be better than that.
Come the next big asteroid, I'm really not sure that we deserve to survive.
Amen to that. There was a documentary last night on death row in Texas. I found it so upsetting that I stopped watching it half way through. It's not that I empathised with the convicted murderers, I didn't at all. It was the ritual nature of the production-line slaughter. We should be better than that.
Come the next big asteroid, I'm really not sure that we deserve to survive.
We are of one mind Martin... :clap:
I think mankind needs a disaster of the scale you describe to jolt us into some semblance of sanity. It would be nice to think we, as a society, possess the intelligence and compassion to facilitate change by ourselves, but I'm not holding my breath. I could have used 'civilized' in the previous sentence, but somehow it didn't seem appropriate... :mental:
Just to help you digest this for what it is...
Sarah and both her daghters have been under constaint political attack because of there way of life and belifes.
The add you speak of had absolutly nothing to do with Miss Gifford at all other than she was in for a tight race.
It was an age old add used by polations from both sides just useing targets instead of a big X,due to Sarahs gun slinging image painted in a negative way by the democrats SHE WAS ONLY TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK FOR HER IN A SITIRICAL WAY.
The target was for political defeat.
She is allways being smeared as a gun toateing halfwit,the add was meant to play back on that smear as (targeting for defeat by VOTEING THEM OUT)!!
Heres the add.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html
The Democrates have been very cruel to her and her family for no good reason other than she is conservative.
There has been NO link,in any of the blogs,youtube videos, or forums by the shooter that link Sarha or anything she has said to him.
He was mad because after years of calling Miss. Giffords office,following her every time she spoke publicly and shouting out stuped crazy comments,she ignored him and moved on.(Dissing him).I personally wonder if he didn't have some weird crush on her.
The Dems are once agein capitolizing on a tragity,Diane Finstine is allready screaming for even more gun control .
The Democrats have such a bad image right now they will try anything.One commented just after the last election that Obama needed a Oklahoma city bombing like event to bring him close to the American people as it worked well for Bill Clinton. Guess he got his chance.
Google some of the mean things said about Sarah Pallon and the attacks on her family,the internet is full of them.
I wish Miss. Gifford a speedy recovery and am sad the Republican Federal judge was killed too but you probably didn't know that also Miss. Gifford was what we call a Blue Dog Democrate and had freinds on both sides of the isle.
I pray she comes back 100% and returns to congress passing a bill to help us treat the mentaliy insaine instead of just letting them wonder the streets till something like this happens.
The press here will distort facts to divide people,advance there agenda and they are all owned by just a few people now,very little free press going on here now.
I don't doubt what you are saying Colin, but let's have some balance here shall we? The Republicans are guilty of the same sort of behavior. My point is that the US political system is beyond confrontational to the point that members of both parties have wished opponents dead. The US has set itself up as the worlds policeman. The problem with that is that the US political psyche isn't that far removed from the poor unfortunate soul who shot Gabrielle Giffords...
WOStantonCS100
11-01-2011, 08:50
Hmmmm...
Reading through this thread has been almost as disconcerting as the recent incident in Arizona. I normally stay out of political conversations; so, forgive these comments if they don't set well.
I feel fairly certain that the gunman didn't see the senator as "a person". I believe he let himself see her as "the enemy" or "the target" or any thing other than what she was; a wife, a daughter, a person with a heart, a mind and a soul (if you believe in that sort of thing). And while those with reasonable control over their faculties cry out against that kind of senselessness, some of the generalizations made in these posts about US citizens in general seem just as senseless. In fact, it is doing the very same thing the gunman is accused of, namely, dehumanizing someone or an entire group of persons. It's much easier to act (or speak) against "a label" than an actual person. I would ask that those reading this would not fall (or jump) into that trap.
Despite being born in America, New York City no less, some of the people I have the most admiration for are not "natives" of this country; but, are now citizens. They include folks from Wales, India, Australia, Canada and many other places around the globe. There are also folks from both coasts of the US and the interior whom I have considerable respect for in terms of intellect and their concern for humanity at large, even in the backwoods.
The American government is very small in number compared to the population of the country. But, asking why Americans don't just get rid of all "the people" currently in office and completely gut and reconstitute the government is a little like asking why haven't all those "folks" gotten rid of the monarchy yet? We live in a world of complexity upon complexity. It always seems easy, until one pulls back the covers. Personally, greed is the order of the day and that is not unique to the US. If we look closely, greed is always tied to monetary gain and that is always tied to those, whether in the corporate or private sector that stand to lose a lot of that if the game is changed. And, those people represent interests in almost all countries of the world.
The best I can do is to look at my brothers from Cardiff or Quebec or wherever and remember that he/she has his/her own mind and his/her own thoughts and the only way to know what they are... is to ask him/her.
As for the OP's letter, whether there is a direct connection between the rhetoric and the shooting... I can't answer that. I truly wish Sarah Palin would just go away. She's only a small part of what's wrong, though. I do heartily agree that politics the world over, in every country, at every level, has long since left sanity and reason in the dust bin. As for me, I task myself everyday with not allowing my words and actions mirror theirs. Hopefully, I'm succeeding. And, that means I can't lump folks into a category and point my finger.
As a global society, now is a great time to learn and share (good things) with our neighbors across the pond. That's my aim. It's is great to be able to be apart of forums outside of as well as inside of the US, especially ones that revolve around what we all agree is a universal language: music. The best of times; the worst of times. :confused:
Hi Biff, what you wrote indeed comes across well. I would say that Sarah Palin is a product of some of what wrong, not the cause but an example of what the system allows to come to the top. In the UK we have some extreme people around politics but mostly our politicians are in the centre (though many in the US see our centre as left). Many Republicans are WAY more extreme and to the right than we experience in Europe so to us Sarah Palin seems really extreme.
WOStantonCS100
11-01-2011, 09:41
Hi Biff, what you wrote indeed comes across well. I would say that Sarah Palin is a product of some of what wrong, not the cause but an example of what the system allows to come to the top. In the UK we have some extreme people around politics but mostly our politicians are in the centre (though many in the US see our centre as left). Many Republicans are WAY more extreme and to the right than we experience in Europe so to us Sarah Palin seems really extreme.
Thanks, Clive.
I agree. I won't call Sarah Palin names; but, I do think many, many, many, many folks in the US wish she would "just find something else to do" and again I am one of those persons. I can safely say that she does not represent all US women, all US persons who call themselves Christians nor, I'm fairly certain, all Republicans (I have no allegiance to any political party) any more so than Al Sharpton represents the majority of African-Americans (blacks or whatever the label of choice is today). The US media, also run by a relatively small group of individuals loves a "poster child". 9 (if not 10) times out of 10 they are picked for the sole purpose of retaining or increasing "TV" ratings. Sad. Very sad. If she miraculously gets elected, can I move to the UK? Seriously?
The more I watch the world, the more I think there are only two groups of people: friends of humanity and enemies of humanity.
Hi Biff, what you wrote indeed comes across well. I would say that Sarah Palin is a product of some of what wrong, not the cause but an example of what the system allows to come to the top. In the UK we have some extreme people around politics but mostly our politicians are in the centre (though many in the US see our centre as left). Many Republicans are WAY more extreme and to the right than we experience in Europe so to us Sarah Palin seems really extreme.
Can you name one extreme veiw? Closeing our borders and knowing who is comming and going from our country is extreme?
Expecting us to cut spending and live with in our means is extreme?
Not wanting the government to decide who gets what and how much health care is extreme?
Wanting schools to teach to a standard (reading,wrighting ,arithmatic is extream?)
If so most Americans are extreme,she just got labled by our liberal press because she dosent support gay marrage.Another thing Americans don't support.
She was and is a threat to the left,because she is much like Margret Thatcher in personality.
BTW I wish Ronald Regan and Margret Thatcher where around today,also Winston Churchill could help sort things out.
I'm sick of so much hand wringing and whineing,and the polotitions that promote it.
Can you name one extreme veiw? Closeing our borders and knowing who is comming and going from our country is extreme?
Expecting us to cut spending and live with in our means is extreme?
Not wanting the government to decide who gets what and how much health care is extreme?
Wanting schools to teach to a standard (reading,wrighting ,arithmatic is extream?)
If so most Americans are extreme,she just got labled by our liberal press because she dosent support gay marrage.Another thing Americans don't support.
She was and is a threat to the left,because she is much like Margret Thatcher in personality.
BTW I wish Ronald Regan and Margret Thatcher where around today,also Winston Churchill could help sort things out.
I'm sick of so much hand wringing and whineing,and the polotitions that promote it.
There's no point getting deep into a political discussion, these things rarely come out well. All I want to emphasise is that European perspectives of left, centre and right in politics differ from the US. Liberal in the US seems to be a derogatory term and your "liberals" are our centre.
Personally, I couldn't take a life under any circumstances...
I usually would agree, but if someone was to put my daughter in mortal danger, I would snuff them out in the blink of an eye... Sorry, but I would. As for capital punishment though, I agree it is a barbaric and repugnant process.
anthonyTD
11-01-2011, 19:34
Hmmmm...
Reading through this thread has been almost as disconcerting as the recent incident in Arizona. I normally stay out of political conversations; so, forgive these comments if they don't set well.
I feel fairly certain that the gunman didn't see the senator as "a person". I believe he let himself see her as "the enemy" or "the target" or any thing other than what she was; a wife, a daughter, a person with a heart, a mind and a soul (if you believe in that sort of thing). And while those with reasonable control over their faculties cry out against that kind of senselessness, some of the generalizations made in these posts about US citizens in general seem just as senseless. In fact, it is doing the very same thing the gunman is accused of, namely, dehumanizing someone or an entire group of persons. It's much easier to act (or speak) against "a label" than an actual person. I would ask that those reading this would not fall (or jump) into that trap.
Despite being born in America, New York City no less, some of the people I have the most admiration for are not "natives" of this country; but, are now citizens. They include folks from Wales, India, Australia, Canada and many other places around the globe. There are also folks from both coasts of the US and the interior whom I have considerable respect for in terms of intellect and their concern for humanity at large, even in the backwoods.
The American government is very small in number compared to the population of the country. But, asking why Americans don't just get rid of all "the people" currently in office and completely gut and reconstitute the government is a little like asking why haven't all those "folks" gotten rid of the monarchy yet?
We live in a world of complexity upon complexity. It always seems easy, until one pulls back the covers. Personally, greed is the order of the day and that is not unique to the US. If we look closely, greed is always tied to monetary gain and that is always tied to those, whether in the corporate or private sector that stand to lose a lot of that if the game is changed. And, those people represent interests in almost all countries of the world.
The best I can do is to look at my brothers from Cardiff or Quebec or wherever and remember that he/she has his/her own mind and his/her own thoughts and the only way to know what they are... is to ask him/her.
As for the OP's letter, whether there is a direct connection between the rhetoric and the shooting... I can't answer that. I truly wish Sarah Palin would just go away. She's only a small part of what's wrong, though. I do heartily agree that politics the world over, in every country, at every level, has long since left sanity and reason in the dust bin. As for me, I task myself everyday with not allowing my words and actions mirror theirs. Hopefully, I'm succeeding. And, that means I can't lump folks into a category and point my finger.
As a global society, now is a great time to learn and share (good things) with our neighbors across the pond. That's my aim. It's is great to be able to be apart of forums outside of as well as inside of the US, especially ones that revolve around what we all agree is a universal language: music. The best of times; the worst of times. :confused:
:clap::clap::clap:
I usually would agree, but if someone was to put my daughter in mortal danger, I would snuff them out in the blink of an eye.
I agree. I do not subscribe to the notion that all life is of equal value. If some scumbag wants to harm an innocent person then they have forfeited the right to be considered of equal value. If someone was trying to harm my wife or kids I would do everything I could to stop them, including killing them if necessary.
As for capital punishment though, I agree it is a barbaric and repugnant process.
I used think that but I've changed my mind. Again, it is about who's life you are valuing. Sparing the murderer is valuing his life but what does it say about the value of his victims life? We have many people in our prisons who have committed the most horrific crimes, killed multiple people, shown no remorse and should never be let out. What is the point of keeping them alive for decades when they contribute absolutely nothing to society and cost tens of thousands in maintenance?
Is giving a murderer ten years in jail saying that we value his life? Or is it saying that we do not value his victim's?
But what about the errors, of which their have been plenty. When we put an innocent person to death should all those who support capital punishment be put to death in return? That seems reasonable to me so I won't be supporting capital punishment.
I agree. I do not subscribe to the notion that all life is of equal value. If some scumbag wants to harm an innocent person then they have forfeited the right to be considered of equal value. If someone was trying to harm my wife or kids I would do everything I could to stop them, including killing them if necessary.
I used think that but I've changed my mind. Again, it is about who's life you are valuing. Sparing the murderer is valuing his life but what does it say about the value of his victims life? We have many people in our prisons who have committed the most horrific crimes, killed multiple people, shown no remorse and should never be let out. What is the point of keeping them alive for decades when they contribute absolutely nothing to society and cost tens of thousands in maintenance?
Is giving a murderer ten years in jail saying that we value his life? Or is it saying that we do not value his victim's?
I'm with Clive on this, in that whilst I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, miscarriages of justice do still happen and in my opinion, even one innocent victim put to death incorrectly is one too many. However, I do think the penal system is far too soft - prison should be a punishment for these people who are beyond rehabilitation - no TV, no news, no music, no access to the internet or books or to the outside world whatsoever, no creature comforts, basic food only, and solitary confinement...
But what about the errors, of which their have been plenty.
Yes, but that is a question of implementation and not principal. I would only agree with the death penalty for cases where there is absolutely no doubt. Where it was even possible that the person was innocent they should face imprisonment. The death penalty should only be an option for extreme cases, not mandatory.
However, I do think the penal system is far too soft - prison should be a punishment for these people who are beyond rehabilitation - no TV, no news, no music, no access to the internet or books or to the outside world whatsoever, no creature comforts, basic food only, and solitary confinement...
Totally agree.
Yes, but that is a question of implementation and not principal. I would only agree with the death penalty for cases where there is absolutely no doubt. Where it was even possible that the person was innocent they should face imprisonment. The death penalty should only be an option for extreme cases, not mandatory.
I have sympathy with your view but at the same time I suspect that in every case where the death sentence has been carried out those countenancing it are 100% sure in their minds it is correct. There is always scope for error.
Reid Malenfant
11-01-2011, 20:40
I'm with Clive on this, in that whilst I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, miscarriages of justice do still happen and in my opinion, even one innocent victim put to death incorrectly is one too many. However, I do think the penal system is far too soft - prison should be a punishment for these people who are beyond rehabilitation - no TV, no news, no music, no access to the internet or books or to the outside world whatsoever, no creature comforts, basic food only, and solitary confinement...
I'm glad i didn't go & do bird in your world Alex :eek:
Take it from me, for your average bod prison is the last place you ever want to be. You think it's too easy huh? Well just attempt to imagine your whole life falling to pieces around you & there is not a damn thing you can do about it :rolleyes: For those outside life goes on, on the inside it becomes some kind of stasis except for the knowledge that you have zero control of anything beyond the walls that keep you inprisoned.
You keep hearing stories of TV in cells & Sky TV, well it's a load of cobblers, or at least it was back in 1997 at any rate ;) For those that just don't really give a toss anyway i guess it must be easy. One guy i was banged up with (damn scag head - heroin) turned round & said "that if your missus doesn't wait for you she isn't worth having"... My immediate reaction was to think what kind of arsehole puts his other half through this multiple times, he'd been inside on quite a few occasions apparently :rolleyes:
For a normal person prison is hell on earth... It may not be hard physically unless you get a few beatings etc, but mentally it's a continuous bloody nightmare :eek:
Beechwoods
11-01-2011, 20:46
I find it surprising that people often have such great suspicion of the motivations and reliability of their political leaders, yet they have some faith that those leaders can always make the right decision when it comes to capital punishment. Even in these modern times, Blair lied outright to the UK public about the weight of the case for war, leading us into the bloody morass we currently find ourselves in. Tens or Hundreds of thousands dead, based upon the recommendation and decision of a legally elected representative, in a civilised liberal democratic country. The same people, checks and balances can't be relied upon to make any less fallible decisions when it comes to capital punishment.
Mark - the key words in my original post were "beyond rehabilitation" - I didn't make it clear, but I was meaning those serial killers who are never going to be let out and are there until they rot - I have no preconceptions that loss of liberty isn't anything other than hellish - but for these monsters my opinion is that they deserve more than that.
Reid Malenfant
11-01-2011, 20:51
Mark - the key words in my original post were "beyond rehabilitation" - I didn't make it clear, but I was meaning those serial killers who are never going to be let out and are there until they rot - I have no preconceptions that loss of liberty isn't anything other than hellish - but for these monsters my opinion is that they deserve more than that.
Fair do :) I saw plenty of them in there :rolleyes:
Did I accidentally click on the 1922 committee forum? :eyebrows:
Guilt or innocence can be a mere matter of change of Government or the passing of time.
Right and wrong are a matter of circumstance and not absolute values.
When you lot have finished your hang em and flog em meeting would you mind very much if I gave one or two of you a slap…….gently of course :rolleyes:
Did I accidentally click on the 1922 committee forum? :eyebrows:
Guilt or innocence can be a mere matter of change of Government or the passing of time.
Right and wrong are a matter of circumstance and not absolute values.
When you lot have finished your hang em and flog em meeting would you mind very much if I gave one or two of you a slap…….gently of course :rolleyes:
Seriously? Is it not an absolute value equalling "wrong" for someone to kidnap, molest, torture and then kill an innocent? How can any circumstance make that right?
Beechwoods
11-01-2011, 21:15
When you lot have finished your hang em and flog em meeting would you mind very much if I gave one or two of you a slap…….gently of course :rolleyes:
I like to think the discussion has a few more nuances than that, John! At least so far :)
Discussions like this sometimes lose their subtle colours when taken online... try and distill a 2 hours pub convo into a few exchanges on a bulletin board :rolleyes:
“I like to think the discussion has a few more nuances than that, John! At least so far ”
Oh arr, a bit like music then ;) Okey dokey, but you know I’m solid state and don’t do them subtle bits; nothing higher in frequency than 16kHz please coz it only reminds me of how deaf I am :doh:
Beechwoods
11-01-2011, 21:33
:lolsign:
I will be careful what I post here as I have had a couple rounds of Kentucky Burbon to relax,What I will say is no one got upset when people where wareing KILL BUSH T-shirts,or wished Sarah Palan to die in a plain crash ect...
She uses a target to high light weak seats in the opposing party as an election stratagy and shes a monster?
No one has been able to point at one bad thing she has done as Governer of Alaska or in speaking at tea party events. Not one valad issue and the media has pinned a scarlet letter on her.
That is worth mentioning.
It would appear that I'm flogging a dead horse on this one, so with that in mind, and the fact that this thread has developed well beyond its original remit, I am now going to butt out gracefully... :violin:
Alex wrote:
“Seriously? Is it not an absolute value equalling "wrong" for someone to kidnap, molest, torture and then kill an innocent? How can any circumstance make that right?”
It can’t, that’s why the terms right and wrong with all their connotations and value judgments shouldn’t be used in such debates. It’s a bit like describing a person as evil and all the ramifications such emotive language entails.
I can think of a few instances where it might be considered justifiable by a majority. I can think of others where the person who perpetrated such acts may have not have the capacity to understand the concepts you describe as “right” and “wrong” due to mental health issues. Do we punish the sick with death?
It may seem like an argument about semantics but on closer inspection it goes a bit deeper.
I can understand those who have theistic foundations perhaps using such language but it’s interesting to see how often the other associated teachings get forgotten in such emotive discussions. This is one of the reasons we have law; it is supposed to rise above the emotive and guard us all from of ill-considered retribution.
the fact that this thread has developed well beyond its original remit
I'm afraid(?) that's AoS!
No one has been able to point at one bad thing she has done
Possibly why they're making such a deal about the targets. Nice people don't stand a chance in politics.
jantheman
12-01-2011, 17:35
I've never met a nasty Yank, I'm talking average Joe here, not politicians etc, they have always been friendly and eager to talk but I do think they are very insulated in their knowledge of the wider world. Just as an example, my cousin is now married to an American but when they first met, he told her that he was from Malta. Her response was, 'what is Malta', not where or what's it like there but 'what is Malta. Things like this still happen all the time and they have been married now for about 10 yrs...:lolsign:
My experience is that it's a closed society with little information passed on about things outside its borders. Just my 2c worth.......sorry...2p.
My experience is that it's a closed society with little information passed on about things outside its borders.
My sister has lived in the US for decades and that's exactly what she says. The people are not stupid but care and know little about the world beyond their coastline.
My Dad (who lived in the USA for 30 years) was once asked by a New Yorker 'what language do you speak in England?'
Once, when I said I came from Scotland, the reply was "Is that in England?"
jantheman
12-01-2011, 18:29
Then there is the classic 'hey, you live in London, I have a friend called Jake who lives in London, do you know him'
Someone asked my sister if she knew the queen!
We're getting perilously close to a 'Yo Momma' joke... :lolsign:
We're getting perilously close to a 'Yo Momma' joke.
I don't know what that is?
Just for the record, I like Americans. I find them generally pretty decent folk and I don't think they're dumb. Well not all of them. They did put a man on the moon. Well, ok, the Germans helped a lot but still.
I don't know what that is?
I'm not going to post an example and risk this thread getting very long, silly and totally OT... :lol:
Just for the record, I like Americans. I find them generally pretty decent folk and I don't think they're dumb. Well not all of them. They did put a man on the moon. Well, ok, the Germans helped a lot but still.
Or did they? (maybe thats a subject for another thread) ;)
Or did they?
At least they made a concerted effort to bring all of the people they put into space back again. Which is more than the Russians did.
My sister has lived in the US for decades and that's exactly what she says. The people are not stupid but care and know little about the world beyond their coastline.
I would have to agree with this statement in general,also our polatics can be some what bipolar by nature(two party system going in 2 different directions 99% of the time).
jantheman
13-01-2011, 09:28
Or did they? (maybe thats a subject for another thread) ;)
OK..lets go for it...my thoughts are...No, they didnt.
OK..lets go for it...my thoughts are...No, they didnt.
You can't really be serious? There's plenty of evidence that they actually went there.
OK..lets go for it...my thoughts are...No, they didnt.
For what it's worth, I think they did, but I'm fairly certain Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins didn't. To Clarify: I believe Apollo 11 did orbit the Moon but the astronauts didn't set foot on it. I'm confident the astronauts from subsequent Apollo missions achieved the feat because of the quality of the video feed and comms from these missions...
I am an unfailing supporter of space exploration, and I'd go as far to say that I think space exploration is essential for mankind's continued existence. To quote Carl Sagan, "We are made of star stuff. The universe exists within us. We are a way for the universe to know itself".
Here are my thoughts on why I believe the Apollo 11 moon landings didn't take place.
After the crew returned to Earth, there were several official NASA press junkets at which all three astronauts display signs of agitation. Armstrong looks embarrassed and disappointed, Aldrin just looks plain angry and Collins doesn't say much at all. Armstrong has spent the years since hiding away from just about everybody. Aldrin has been busy punching people for daring to suggest they never went (well, wouldn't you after being denied such an opportunity?). Collins has found God and kept his own counsel.
One thing is certain, there is a lot of pressure being applied to President Obama to sanction a return to the Moon since water was discovered by NASA's LCROSS mission. If what I suspect is true regarding the Apollo 11 mission, they had better take some damn good props with them to justify the success of the mission...
p.s. I am not your usual young nay-saying whippersnapper, I actually watched the Apollo 11 mission live on TV.
jantheman
13-01-2011, 12:16
You can't really be serious? There's plenty of evidence that they actually went there.
Serious, why not. OK...lets start with 'evidence'. What evidence do we have except someones word.
Photographs, not worth the paper they are printed on. The saying 'the camera doesn't lie' hasn't held true since Man Ray and his mates started manipulating images about 100 years ago. Moon rock...ask the Rijksmuseum about their sample of 'moon rock' oh sorry, petrified wood. The (hushed up) findings of a Japanese satellite that supposedly scanned the moons surface and found no evidence of any landings.etc etc etc.
On the other hand there are questions like, were the Russians tracking Apollo, if they didnt track it on its supposed route, why didnt they expose it as a fraud. There are also supposed to be some sort of reflective panels left there which is used for some scientific experiment.
I dont know, and on that basis and the basis of any scientific experiment where its up to the conductors of the experiment to prove their point....the jury is still out. There are many brains, far superior to mine, who argue both sides of the fence and in my opinion some of the most logical and informative arguments seem to come from the nay sayers.
Like I said, I dont know and remain to be convinced.
anthonyTD
13-01-2011, 12:53
I too have thought about this over the years and had many discusions with friends one of whom is a doctor of science, he is adamant that they did go to the moon, so is it me who is in denial or him ?
either way i think at the time the americans were under enormous pressure to get there before the russians so, my view is, if Apollo 11 did land,,, the footage we were shown of the actual event [yes i was there glued to the telly screen] is dubious at best!
just my ramblings mind you!
Anthony,TD...
Hi Anthony, I wonder whether you remember the 'Technical Issues' screen that popped up rather a lot during those transmissions, as I do? Granted, a cogent argument could be leveled against the reliability of the technology used to provide us with the pictures, which was then in its infancy, but it could also be used to hide a multitude of sins.
anthonyTD
13-01-2011, 13:53
Hi Dave,
i do remember there being a lot of break up and "lost transmision" and as you say this could have been excused at the time for the technology aspect of things etc, but it does make you wonder.:scratch:
when you see the picks and footage of "that room" with all those people involved it also makes me wonder,,, if it was a hoax then either they were all in on it [doubtfull] or they just didnt have a clue and therefore were dupped along with the rest of us!
A...
jantheman
13-01-2011, 14:04
I have to say I didnt watch it all. I remember father keeping me in to see it and after a few minutes I walked out. When asked why I said I thought it was a fix. I went fishing instead....
if it was a hoax then either they were all in on it [doubtfull] or they just didnt have a clue and therefore were dupped along with the rest of us!
A...
As I mentioned in post 93, I believe Apollo 11 went to the Moon, but I also believe they didn't set foot on it... ;)
What year are we talking about, folks, 1969? If so, I was a bit too young to remember.
Interesting discussion, though!
Marco.
What year are we talking about, folks, 1969? If so, I was a bit too young to remember.
Interesting discussion, though!
Marco.
Sure was Marco... ;)
jantheman
13-01-2011, 14:44
Who is he trying to kid...:lolsign:
So Marco, do you have an opinion?
anthonyTD
13-01-2011, 14:49
As I mentioned in post 93, I believe Apollo 11 went to the Moon, but I also believe they didn't set foot on it... ;)
Ahhh,,, understood!:)
A...
jantheman
13-01-2011, 14:57
One could also look at this in light of other scientific discoveries / experiments. For example....
DNA...does it exist, is it what the scientists say it is. I believe yes, on the basis that they, the scientists, are all in agreement. I dont understand it nor can I prove it one way or the other but through consensus of those that are supposed to know, I accept it.
Many more examples could follow but theres no need.
But in the case of the moon landings there is no consensus from those in the know. Equally eminent scientists, engineers etc on both sides have conflicting views. Case not proven.
It would be an interesting exercise to audit the budget allocated to the Apollo program and that which was allocated to the war in Vietnam for discrepancies... :hmm:
(I could clarify that comment, but where's the fun in that... :lol:)
Who is he trying to kid...:lolsign:
So Marco, do you have an opinion?
Lol - I was only 4 years old in 1969, and so unlikely to be watching such programmes ;)
Yes, I have an opinion on the matter, and will get to that later, once I'm back from visiting a friend :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-01-2011, 15:15
Lol - I was only 4 years old in 1969, and so unlikely to be watching such programmes ;)
Yes, I have an opinion on the matter, and will get to that later, once I'm back from visiting a friend :)
Marco.
I was only six myself!!!
Stop playing on the age thing!!!:lolsign:
I was six too, and an annoying little swat by all accounts... :stalks:
jantheman
13-01-2011, 15:36
14 and knew it all...still do...:lolsign:
I was 11 and remember watching it all live. The greatest human achievement of the 20th century, and very nearly a disaster (17s of fuel remaining).
I'm convinced the Apollo 11 landing was for real. If it wasn't, the Russians (who were monitoring it very closely) would have known and would have spilled the beans long ago.
As for Apollo 11 only orbiting and not landing, what would be the point? Apollos 8 and 10 had already make lunar orbits (Apollo 10 did everything 11 did except for the landing - NASA were actually concerned the Apollo 10 astronauts might 'go for glory' and attempt the landing - so much so that they made sure that the Lunar Module accent stage was under-fuelled and that the astronauts knew it).
Apollos 12 -14 were scheduled very close together to give them 3 more attempts before the end of the decade so it wasn't imperative that 11 was seen to succeed.
anthonyTD
13-01-2011, 16:31
I'm convinced the Apollo 11 landing was for real. If it wasn't, the Russians (who were monitoring it very closely) would have known and would have spilled the beans long ago.
As for Apollo 11 only orbiting and not landing, what would be the point? Apollos 8 and 10 had already make lunar orbits (Apollo 10 did everything 11 did except for the landing - NASA were actually concerned the Apollo 10 astronauts might 'go for glory' and attempt the landing - so much so that they made sure that the Lunar Module accent stage was under-fuelled and that the astronauts knew it).
Apollos 12 -14 were scheduled very close together to give them 3 more attempts before the end of the decade so it wasn't imperative that 11 was seen to succeed.
Hi Keith,
thats intersting, i wonder though, if they had no intentions of allowing Apollo 10 to do a moon landing then what was the reason for taking the lunar model with them in the first place, let alone half fueling it too ?:scratch:
Anthony,TD...
Hi Keith,
thats intersting, i wonder though, if they had no intentions of allowing Apollo 10 to do a moon landing then what was the reason for taking the lunar model with them in the first place, let alone half fueling it too ?:scratch:
Anthony,TD...
To practice extraction of the LEM, astronaut transfer, undocking the LEM, flying it away from the command module and rendez-vous & docking. All in lunar orbit. Apollo 9 had already done the same drills, but in Earth orbit.
anthonyTD
13-01-2011, 16:53
To practice extraction of the LEM, astronaut transfer, undocking the LEM, flying it away from the command module and rendez-vous & docking. All in lunar orbit. Apollo 9 had already done the same drills, but in Earth orbit.
I see...
A...
DNA...does it exist, is it what the scientists say it is. I believe yes, on the basis that they, the scientists, are all in agreement. I dont understand it nor can I prove it one way or the other but through consensus of those that are supposed to know, I accept it.
Many more examples could follow but theres no need.
The point is, if you wished, you could repeat the experiments and observations that lead to the discovery of DNA and check it yourself. No faith is required.
BTW, we can still bounce a laser of the mirrors left on the moon, so someone put one there.
jantheman
13-01-2011, 17:54
The point is, if you wished, you could repeat the experiments and observations that lead to the discovery of DNA and check it yourself. No faith is required.
BTW, we can still bounce a laser of the mirrors left on the moon, so someone put one there.
I have no wish to repeat the experiments, besides, I wouldnt know how to. The point I was making is that although, I can't see and have no idea of the concept of DNA, I accept it because there is a scientific consensus.
Are you saying that faith is required in order to believe the moon landings happened?
The point about the mirrors has already been made and its one of the things that as a 'not convinced' I will investigate further, if and when time allows.
No, I was saying that your faith in correctness of "the scientist" view on the existence of DNA (which is all it is if you have no directly repeatable and verifiable evidence) is testable if you should so wish. Its this testibility that means that faith is not required.
jantheman
13-01-2011, 18:01
This is interesting as it says some of the 'mirrors' were put there by the Russians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/21/mcdonald-observatory-space-laser-funding
I've never thought the moon landings were faked.
Ignore the technical aspects. In order to fake the landing a huge number of people would have to be in on it. Committed scientists and engineers, decent people working hard towards a noble goal. To conceive a plan to fake the landing would involve trusting that all of these people would not only cooperate but they keep quiet about it for the rest of their lives. And that none of the people asked to participate in the lie would refuse and spill the beans.
Then there is a size of the risk involved. This was one of the greatest technical achievements in human history, watched by the whole world. Can you imagine how bad the fall out would have been if they had attempted to fake it and been caught out?
And what would have been the motive? The Russians were not about to land on the moon any time soon, there was no great hurry, so why take such an enormous risk?
Can you honestly imagine yourself in a situation like that, the idea of faking the mission being proposed and thinking 'Yeah, let's go for it'? It's just not going to happen. No one would have the balls to risk their country's reputation like that.
And the evidence is that three men were a bit fidgety? Convincing I'll admit but honestly, there could be any number of reasons for them reacting the way they did. These men were engineers at heart, not the flashy heroes of the movies. Perhaps the realisation that they were now the most famous people on the planet, that their lives could never be private again, that their every sneeze would be scrutinized did not sit well with them. Later astronauts would know what they were letting themselves in for but it's not hard to imagine that for some of the pioneers it might have been a bit much.
If it had been faked we would not be looking at some weak theories today. We would know that it had been done and exactly how. We would have details, places, names. The idea that a subterfuge on that scale would still be secret after all these years is just stupid. People just can't keep their mouths shut forever.
To clarify: I'm not saying ALL the landings were faked, but I doubt the Apollo 11 crew set foot on the Moon. I don't personally know the reason: Maybe it was a technical glitch, maybe it was political, maybe, if you choose to believe the alien conspiracy theorists, they were told not to. For whatever reason, I doubt the success of that particular mission...
p.s. I'd would love to be proved wrong on this, because, as a six year old boy, it was one of the most exciting periods of my childhood)
And the evidence is that three men were a bit fidgety? Convincing I'll admit but honestly, there could be any number of reasons for them reacting the way they did.
Aldrin was, by his own admission, an alcoholic who had only given up drinking a few days before the Apollo 11 launch. He had a stash of whiskey organised for the quarantine quarters. Armstrong was a heavy smoker who had only stopped hours before launch. So after 8 days in space, Aldrin was gagging for a drink and Armstrong for a cigar.
Relationships between the astronauts were fairly strained anyway - Aldrin was unhappy that usual protocol had been ignored and Commander Armstrong was chosen to be the first out of the LEM. Also Armstrong had already left the Navy and was a full-time NASA employee on a very high salary, whilst Aldrin and Collins were on secondment from the US Air Force on regular military pay.
Aldrin was a devoted Christian (he took a Chalace etc. onboard the LEM and took Holy Communion immediately after landing on the moon - something both Armstrong and NASA in general were unhappy with as NASA were at the time being taken to court by a US athiest over Jim Lovell's Apollo 8 TV broadcast where he quoted from Genesis).
Aldrin was frustrated that his career was now effectively over - NASA had no more Apollo missions lined up for him and no plans for any other ambitious projects that would interest him - all he had to look forward to was a pen-pushing job with the Air Force. This after a stellar career so far - top West Point academy graduate of his year, elite fighter pilot training, decorated active service in Korea, MIT doctorate in Astronautics, accepted by NASA for the Gemini program, longest ever space walk during his Gemini 12 mission with Jim Lovell (not broken until the 1980s), second man to walk on the moon, international fame then... nothing.
None of them were particularly looking forward to the 'World Tour' NASA had lined up for them.
Lots of reasons there for tension and odd body language.
To clarify: I'm not saying ALL the landings were faked, but I doubt the Apollo 11 crew set foot on the Moon.
But why fake Apollo 11 landing and risk the humiliation and fall-out when there were still 3 further opportunities to fulfil the brief of "before this decade is out, send a man to the moon and return him safely to Earth"?
Apollos 12, 13 and 14 were all scheduled to launch before 31/12/69 if required (the schedule was relaxed after Apollo 11's success). And the Russians were, by this time, obviously some way off.
Had 11,12 and 13 all failed then, just maybe, the temptation to fake 14 may have been there, but somehow I doubt it.
As I hinted in one of my earlier posts, it is a hunch I harbor. It's not based on one big issue, but lots of smaller ones: For example, check out the quality of the Apollo 11 video feed compared with those from other Apollo missions. Subsequent mission feeds were clear and detailed with good audio sync etc, whereas the A11 feeds were fuzzy and lo-res with poor audio syncing. Why? Allegedly they operated the same Westinghouse Apollo Lunar Television Cameras as the other astronauts. They carried the same Hassleblad designed stills cameras. It just doesn't add up for me.
It just doesn't add up for me.
Just try not to bump into Buzz Alrdin and I'm sure you'll be fine :0)
By the way, I think the guy totally deserved it.
Beechwoods
13-01-2011, 22:57
Wasn't the reason for the poor video quality covered in the film 'The Dish' - which also shows what a feat of engineering the whole live broadcast was. Remember it was only a few years since the first live earth-earth satellite broadcast. They'd never done such a thing from the moon before, and boy I bet they learnt some stuff the first time they tried it... hence it getting better with every subsequent attempt.
Did anyone see the BBC's 'Omnibus' live coverage of the moonlanding, 'So What If It's Just Green Cheese - An Entertainment For Moon-Night'? Floyd did the music and it was very very good. If anyone has a recording of the soundtrack, even if recorded on a little tape deck next to the telly, I'd be very keen to hear it. I have 10 minutes of it, but would love to have more.
The thing that bothers me most about the footage is the rocket motors blasting the powdery surface of the moon in 0 gravity and the dust rapidly falling back to the moons surface.
If you have ever vacuumed a room and had a vacuum cleaner bag fail, the dust hangs in the air for some time.
In 0 gravity shouldn't it stay in a cloud at least as long?
I have always been bothered by that.
Wasn't the reason for the poor video quality covered in the film 'The Dish' - which also shows what a feat of engineering the whole live broadcast was.
Yep. The Slow-scan TV (SSTV) system that was used to transmit the TV feed Lunar to Earth was totally incompatible with the broadcast TV systems (PAL/NTSC ) so a very low-tech solution (broadcast TV camera re-filming the SSTV picture on a monitor) was used to show the Apollo 11 footage. The original analogue SSTV tape reels were probably wiped (conspiracy theorists: don't get too excited - this was routine practice as the required tape spec became comercially unavailable during the late '70's - so wiping old tapes vbecame a necessity) during the 1980s. Better SSTV to broadcast-standard conversion techniques were soon developed for the latter missions.
The Hassleblad pictures from Apollo 11 are excellent quality - certainly no worse than the later missions - eg. the famous Apollo 11 'Visor shot'. It should be remembered that these photos were taken with hands envoloped in heavy 'spacesuit' gloves without the aid of a viewfinder (often with the Hassleblad fastened on a chest-mounting plate attached to the spacesuit) and that taking photos was not a priority for the first moon landing - Aldrin: "Everyone was interested in the science. So we did the science and photos and the rest was sort of "gee wizz". We had not planned a lot of the gee-wizz stuff that, in retrospect, proved quite important".
Sorry guys - it happened.
The thing that bothers me most about the footage is the rocket motors blasting the powdery surface of the moon in 0 gravity...
The moon isn't "0 gravity". It's gravity is around one-sixth that of the earth wihich means that matter will fall back to the surface in a similar fashion to that on Earth only more slowly.
I still think the lander shpuld have created a masive dust cloud and it should have been slow to settel.
Thanks for the schooling Keith.
kininigin
14-01-2011, 02:50
I've never thought the moon landings were faked.
Ignore the technical aspects. In order to fake the landing a huge number of people would have to be in on it. Committed scientists and engineers, decent people working hard towards a noble goal. To conceive a plan to fake the landing would involve trusting that all of these people would not only cooperate but they keep quiet about it for the rest of their lives. And that none of the people asked to participate in the lie would refuse and spill the beans.
.
maybe the question shouldn't be was it faked but what technology was used and what was'available'at that time? what was found up there? and why have they not gone back with 'todays more advanced technology'? ;)
In order to fake the landing a huge number of people would have to be in on it.
compartmentalisation
maybe the question shouldn't be was it faked but what technology was used and what was'available'at that time? what was found up there? and why have they not gone back with 'todays more advanced technology'? ;)
compartmentalisation
So menny well respected U.S. officers and service men have come forward in there old age.Explaining threats of looseing there retirement,prison,ect..
So menny people haveing been told "ever talk about this and no one will ever find you or your family agein,It's a big desert".
A example that comes to mind is a the crash at Roswell New Mexico.
People will hide the truth,if threatend and have no power to do anything about it.
Some will hide the truth if convenced it is for the good of there country.
We may hear the truth in a death bed confession from an astronaught.
If we really didn't go? But I dought it if these expilots swar an oath of secracy they won't break it.
In 0 gravity shouldn't it stay in a cloud at least as long?
It's not zero gravity but it is zero air. The dust will therefore plummet the same as any object. Do you remember the feather and stone experiment on a later Apollo mission? They both fell at the same rate.
jantheman
14-01-2011, 08:26
I have already put forward a couple of the points that, for me, make me doubt that it ever happened. There are many many other examples or questions that will never be answered here because we simply do not know. The only thing I hope is that sometime before I fall off my perch, somehow and by whatever means somebody comes out and says...'OK guys, lets come clean'. Maybe Julian Assange could be the man for the job. :lolsign:
Just try not to bump into Buzz Alrdin and I'm sure you'll be fine :0)
I don't intend to... ;)
By the way, I think the guy totally deserved it.
As a matter of fact, so do I, the guy was a total toss-pot... :lolsign:
So menny well respected U.S. officers and service men have come forward in there old age.Explaining threats of looseing there retirement,prison,ect..
So menny people haveing been told "ever talk about this and no one will ever find you or your family agein,It's a big desert".
A example that comes to mind is a the crash at Roswell New Mexico.
People will hide the truth,if threatend and have no power to do anything about it.
Some will hide the truth if convenced it is for the good of there country.
We may hear the truth in a death bed confession from an astronaught.
If we really didn't go? But I dought it if these expilots swar an oath of secracy they won't break it.
Jeff, try reading The Day After Roswell by COL. Philip J. Corso (Ret.) with William J. Birnes, if you want to get a handle on Roswell, it is a real eye-opener. When your done with that, read UFOs (Generals, Pilots and Government Officials go on the record) by Leslie Kean then grab a stiff drink coz you are going to need it... ;)
why have they not gone back with 'todays more advanced technology'?
Because it costs a fortune and there's little point. They know what it is now, they've got the samples and people were getting bored with it fifty years ago. They're not going to spend billions of dollars doing something unless there's a good reason to do it.
The bottom line is that conspiracy theorists go about saying it was a hoax because they can. Assassinations, terrorist attacks, you name it the loons come out of the woodwork and spout their crackpot ideas. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the odd theory is correct but mostly they're the work of faulty minds.
Crazy people dream up crazy ideas about everything you can think of. Some people think that the world is run by a race of giant lizards in disguise, no I'm not making that up. Most are ignored because it's easy to prove that they are rubbish. The ones that stick around are mostly just as stupid but simply aren't as easy to disprove. None of us can drive over to the moon and check for tracks so we can't disprove the theory that no one went. However you really need to be an idiot to buy a theory that defies all reason just because you can't disprove it.
Have you ever seen a conspiracy theorist on the TV who did not look like he had a screw loose? And what is it with the American desert? Why is that the only place in the alien sat nav? And how come we never see them coming? They don't get picked up whizzing across space, they just magically appear in Nevada one night, usually cutting the ar** hole out of some cows or something, and are always spotted by some guy in a checked shirt named Earl. Do they ever land in New York? No. Do they ever land in Birmingham? No. Unless you're an American hick you ain't never seein one of those dudes. Who all just happen to look exactly like the aliens in early Hollywood movies...
kininigin
14-01-2011, 17:25
Because it costs a fortune and there's little point. They know what it is now, they've got the samples and people were getting bored with it fifty years ago. They're not going to spend billions of dollars doing something unless there's a good reason to do it.
The bottom line is that conspiracy theorists go about saying it was a hoax because they can. Assassinations, terrorist attacks, you name it the loons come out of the woodwork and spout their crackpot ideas. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the odd theory is correct but mostly they're the work of faulty minds.
Crazy people dream up crazy ideas about everything you can think of. Some people think that the world is run by a race of giant lizards in disguise, no I'm not making that up. Most are ignored because it's easy to prove that they are rubbish. The ones that stick around are mostly just as stupid but simply aren't as easy to disprove. None of us can drive over to the moon and check for tracks so we can't disprove the theory that no one went. However you really need to be an idiot to buy a theory that defies all reason just because you can't disprove it.
Have you ever seen a conspiracy theorist on the TV who did not look like he had a screw loose? And what is it with the American desert? Why is that the only place in the alien sat nav? And how come we never see them coming? They don't get picked up whizzing across space, they just magically appear in Nevada one night, usually cutting the ar** hole out of some cows or something, and are always spotted by some guy in a checked shirt named Earl. Do they ever land in New York? No. Do they ever land in Birmingham? No. Unless you're an American hick you ain't never seein one of those dudes. Who all just happen to look exactly like the aliens in early Hollywood movies...
You clearly have done no serious research on these subjects and seem to get your info from mainstream sources.Anyone who has spent any time really looking into this without any preconcieved ideas has to come to the conclusion that there are clearly sightings of u.f.o.'s(meaning it is unidentified not necessarily 'alien')all over the world including birmingham.
Having said that even the mainstream is starting to take this more seriously check out this link and then tell me that all these people are crazy hillbillies.
BtmpaM0PqyI
Who was it that said 'condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance'?
jantheman
14-01-2011, 17:35
They know what it is now, they've got the samples
Maybe you would like to read what happened with the sample of 'moon rock' that was given to the Rijksmuseum.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6105902/Moon-rock-given-to-Holland-by-Neil-Armstrong-and-Buzz-Aldrin-is-fake.html
Hey Darren, do you believe in ghosts?
Jeff, try reading The Day After Roswell by COL. Philip J. Corso (Ret.) with William J. Birnes, if you want to get a handle on Roswell, it is a real eye-opener. When your done with that, read UFOs (Generals, Pilots and Government Officials go on the record) by Leslie Kean then grab a stiff drink coz you are going to need it... ;)
They have allready made my reading list some time ago.
My father worked at White sands proveing grounds with Dan Fry,as a kid I read his little yellow book sighned and given to my father.
So I have had an intrest from early on, The more I have read changes my mind as to what these beings really are.
And I don't belive there goal is to help us at all but to miss lead us and decive us.
http://danielfry.com/daniels-writings/white-sands-incident/ < His book can be read free here.
This would be the first time at least in modern history a man claimed to have boarded an alien space craft.My Dad felt his story was true but said he always felt alot of anxiety when telling it.
They did give him a polygragh later in life and he failed it,my father felt the failure was due to his level of anxiety.
My father also worked on the A bomb,he tested very high in the Navy and from the time he was a kid he read sience and math books one after another
and could remember everything he read.
The navey during WWII sent him to Oklahoma University where he took classes to aid him in wepons development.
At one point his face was burned developing a new rocket propelent.
He later went to work for Arojet. Where he was laid off during a massive cut back. He has 14 U.S. patents owned by Arojet and the Navy in his name.
Not bad for a guy with no degree!
His name was Donald Wayne Harper,I wonder if some one self taught could acomplish so much today with out a degree?
Dan Fry was also self taught like so menny early pioneers of rocket and explosives development.
I belive menny books not cannonised by the church points to our visiters ( The watchers,the Netholin and Allowheim).
Menny people don't understand some of the conections, for example THE FLOOD.
I was taught as a kid God distroyed the Earth because of mans sin.
I don't wan't to make this a Bible lesson or offend anyone with different faith but I want to show how the oldest wrightings we have point menny of the events we don't understand today.
Example:The Netholin was a race of fallen angels,these angels where said to be giants and these giants took wives from man.
These hybread offspring where more angelic than human and went on to change the human race.
This plan was to defeat the comming of Jesus who had to be pure and from a pure human blood line to be sacraficed for our salvation.
The plan was if the human race was no longer human Gods plan could be defeated.
God flooded at least most of the Earth and killed the fallen angles hybreeds, I was told he then made it impossable for fallen angles to reproduce with man but I have never seen this written.
Oddly we have been finding the remains of huge giants all over the world.Some links to picures will follow.
My point is aliens may not be fallen angels or Demons,I used to laugh at people who thought this but one dirty little secret of U.F.O resurchers is alien abductions have been stopped all over the world by simply comanding them to leave in the name of Jesus.
This has been a problem for menny UFO resurchers not wanting this to be made public because it confuses and discredits the abductions in the minds of menny people.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/december202010/history-giants-ta.php
kininigin
14-01-2011, 20:30
Hey Darren, do you believe in ghosts?
If by ghost you mean entities, spirits, life after death ect then yes.
Humans can only see in the electromagnetic spectrum which measures 0.005% the rest being so called 'dark matter' 95%,ordinary nonluminous matter 4.5% and ordinary luminous matter 0.5%(percentages do not add up to 100% because of rounding) and of that 0.005% humans can only see a fraction of that.
We can detect x rays infrared ect,but we are virtualy blind.It's about frequencies,the faster energy vibrates the less dense it becomes.Cats can see at a higher frequency than humans which is why they seem to react to 'empty space' and we think the cat's gone mad but it's reacting to what it see's because of it's greater visual ability.
So do i think life or 'ghosts' as you call them exist yes and when we do see them( i have first hand experience,not of ghosts in the classic meaning but orbs) it's because either it or the person seeing it has increased or decreased their frequency range.
Imagine you have 5 radio stations and you are tuned into radio one,now the other stations dont cease to exist they are just on a frequency you are not tuned into,as soon as your turn the dial(increase your ability to see more of the electromagnetic spectrum) to radio 2 that's what you here(or see in our case of ghosts).Sometimes these frequencies get very close to each other and you can here 2 radio staions and they both exist at the same time or in our case we can see ghosts.
Im not sure what the point in your question is though colin :scratch:
anthonyTD
14-01-2011, 20:55
HI all,
this is turning out to be a realy interesting thread, i also understand from some of your views and beliefs its not always easy to discuss these things but we should, there are definately many, many things we do not fully understand, in fact i am sure the knowledge we have gained to date of who and what we are and where we came from etc is only the tip of the iceberg.
A...
kininigin
14-01-2011, 21:32
The bottom line is that conspiracy theorists go about saying it was a hoax because they can. Assassinations, terrorist attacks, you name it the loons come out of the woodwork and spout their crackpot ideas. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the odd theory is correct but mostly they're the work of faulty minds.
Tell that to the millions of people who have died and suffered and still suffering.
If you see an agenda in progress backed up by evidence around you and you have at least a few brain cells and can smell the bs put before you,imo you have a duty to inform people to what is going on.It's up to them if they believe it or not that.
But simply dismissing people who have done research in the conspiracy field,some of which for 20 -30yrs who are trying to get people to look at the world in a different way and say look what's going on in the world it appears to be crazy,but here is some info to look at it from a different point of view, what do you think? by calling people crazy loons gets you nowhere.
You seem to have a preconcieved belief that all conspiracy theorists are crazy nutcases.Theres a phrase which goes 'the mind is like a parachute,it works better when it's open'.When you look at info with an open mind with no preconcieved ideas a whole new world opens up and you start connecting dots.
The world works nothing like we are told it is,the quicker we figure this out the quicker we can change it.
You can of course carry on calling us all nutjobs and pretend everthing is fine,the choice is yours myfriend :)
kininigin
14-01-2011, 21:54
HI all,
this is turning out to be a realy interesting thread, i also understand from some of your views and beliefs its not always easy to discuss these things but we should, there are definately many, many things we do not fully understand, in fact i am sure the knowledge we have gained to date of who and what we are and where we came from etc is only the tip of the iceberg.
A...
Exactly,there are so many anomilies and unanswered questions about our past that it truly astounds me.Take the baalbek stones in lebanon some weighing a 1000 tons.These were quarryed and moved to make constructions the likes of which we cannot do today and this was done thousands of years ago,something doesn't add up.
Reading the above threads is very telling.
Although I understand there are alot of crack pots who make false claims and just one can shake your will to step outside your comfort zone,thank God some have or we would never sail the sea in fear of falling off the edge of flat Earth.
Or we would still be fleaming people to bleed out the evil spirits instead of administering medecine.
We really can't explain so much of the world we live in.
Just look at how easy it is to dupe people,for example the Eath has been cooling.
The model for global warming has always been a fraud yet a whole generation still belives it in spite of the facts.
I think some will be freezing in sub zero ice age like weather afrade to turn on the heater because of global warming.
kininigin
14-01-2011, 23:24
Just look at how easy it is to dupe people,for example the Eath has been cooling.
The model for global warming has always been a fraud yet a whole generation still belives it in spite of the facts.
I think some will be freezing in sub zero ice age like weather afrade to turn on the heater because of global warming.
Exactly it's the SUN that governs are temperature not man made pollution.
hwyjsJJrr2I
A good read if Aliens intrest you.
It's alot of info condenced to make a point.
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/demons_aliens_clothes.htm
jantheman
15-01-2011, 08:38
OOOOoooo..., ghosties and spirits. This is heading towards religion. As a matter or courtesy to others, if it goes that way....'I'm out'.
If by ghost you mean entities, spirits, life after death ect then yes.
Great post, very interesting. I totally agree about the fact we can that as humans we can 'see' so little yet often assume we see everything. However I still think that most of the people who claim to have had a chat with aliens are barking.
Your post highlights one important fact. If we can't 'see' into different dimensions then how can we draw firm conclusions from the little we do know? What I mean is, assuming you accept the existence of some form of life outside our realm, how can you know they're telling the truth?
Good some have or we would never sail the sea in fear of falling off the edge of flat Earth. Or we would still be fleaming people to bleed out the evil spirits instead of administering medicine.
Your comparison assumes it was not the superstitious people who were bleeding heads and drowning witches! Think you've got it slightly the wrong way around.
As I said, I think that some conspiracy theories will be absolutely correct but you can't generalise. Global warming, I would imagine the truth lies somewhere between both camps and neither understand the full story, but we started talking about faking the moon landings. You can't just lump everything together like that. There is a difference between a scientist who draws incorrect conclusions and some guy living in a trailer who's patently not the full bag of rabbits!
kininigin
15-01-2011, 10:18
OOOOoooo..., ghosties and spirits. This is heading towards religion. As a matter or courtesy to others, if it goes that way....'I'm out'.
im the most non religious guy there is,but it doesn't mean that i think that when we 'die' that's it kapput you get one chance.
I see where your coming from though as if you have a belief to defend and you are quite dogmatic in that belief then listen to someones else point of view then all your going to do is filter any info you hear to fit in with your belief system no matter what the evidence says to the contary,cognitive dissonance.
I have an interesting story about cognitive dissonance in action i'll post it later.
kininigin
15-01-2011, 10:47
Your post highlights one important fact. If we can't 'see' into different dimensions then how can we draw firm conclusions from the little we do know? What I mean is, assuming you accept the existence of some form of life outside our realm, how can you know they're telling the truth?
In normal circumstances we cannot see into different dimensions but when change your ability to see different frequencies you can.This can be done through meditation,psychoactive plants,trance states ect.
Indigenous people have know this info for a very long time and is basic common knowlegde.Shamans are very important people when it comes to this sort of knowledge,bearing this in mind and looking at the british empire and others such as the dutch and spainish from a different pov what did they do?
They went around the world killing all the shamans in south/north america,africa,australia in europe you had the witch hunts then imposed a religious belief system on everyone.We have largely lost this once comman knowledge.
So there are people who have direct experiences of these different dimensions and tell us what they experienced.'Western science' is now getting to the point where it can understand what these shamans have been saying all along through quantum mechanics and other cutting edge experiments.
To understand all this you really need to do some reading(or some psychoactive plants :eyebrows:) as it's difficult to explain in a few sentences.
In normal circumstances we cannot see into different dimensions but when change your ability to see different frequencies you can.This can be done through meditation,psychoactive plants,trance states ect.
That doesn't alter my point. Let's say for a minute you're right and certain people can 'see' spirits, if we can call them that? How do you know that what they see is what they think it is?
Put it another way. We deal with humans in our own realm, but are all humans honest? Can you take everything in the physical world at face value? If not then where is the logic in assuming that everything seen in the spiritual realm is what it appears to be?
Incidentally, I think that most of the people who claim to be able to see into the spirit world are charlatans and lairs. I would take anything that any of them said with a huge bag of salt.
jantheman
15-01-2011, 13:53
im the most non religious guy there is,but it doesn't mean that i think that when we 'die' that's it kapput you get one chance.
I see where your coming from though as if you have a belief to defend and you are quite dogmatic in that belief then listen to someones else point of view then all your going to do is filter any info you hear to fit in with your belief system no matter what the evidence says to the contary,cognitive dissonance.
I have an interesting story about cognitive dissonance in action i'll post it later.
Nope...I feel like I'm on the 'couch'...:lolsign:
Discussions on religion are a sure fired way to get me to 'go off on one' For the sake of civility and my membership of this forum, it's best I dont participate.
I can’t help wondering how those who believe in conspiracy theories, alien landing on earth, superhuman powers, etc go about making decisions in their lives :scratch:
It’s not that I don’t accept that government and agencies don’t conspire, but history seems to show they aren’t very good at it. If I had the faith in humanity and in particular groups of it, pulling off a major life altering conspiracy without f*****g it up or getting exposed I reckon I would start voting again :doh:
Nor do I rule out the possibility of other life forms in this universe, or maybe even another universe but given the vast distances likely to be involved in traveling from wherever to here, I cant see them sending a sole emissary without prior contact who then crashes and gets dragged off to a bunker in a desert. The technology required to travel these kinds of distances wouldn’t lend itself readily to error I would have thought.
Where are their mates then?
What irritates me is the arrogance of man that underpins a great many of these alternative views. Why for example should humankind have any extra undeveloped or forgotten senses; vain hopes that we can elevate ourselves from out rather mundane and viral like existence perhaps? We breed; we consume and destroy without consideration for our environment, other species that inhabit the planet and even worse, our own future.
Lets hope this is as smart and superhuman as we get because it seems to me our nature really isn’t fit for any further powers given the mess we have made with what we have.
The quicker we get the job of destroying ourselves done the better imo. Can anyone tell me one thing humankind has done that has benefited the majority of the planets population and should a universal book of “good deeds done” be written we should expect an entry in?
. Can anyone tell me one thing humankind has done that has benefited the majority of the planets population
The eradication of the smallpox virus.
Nope, may have helped a large proportion of the planets human content but that’s just survival instinct. We do try to combat anything that is likely to make large dents in our population if we can.
You're just thinking human which is natural but doesn't warrent a mention in the big book ;)
Nope, may have helped a large proportion of the planets human content but that’s just survival instinct. We do try to combat anything that is likely to make large dents in our population if we can.
You're just thinking human which is natural but doesn't warrent a mention in the big book ;)
so what's an example of what we could do (but don't) that would get a mention?
Well, population control without the associated random destruction of wars and disease would seem to have benefits for us and the rest of this planets inhabitants.
Well, population control without the associated random destruction of wars and disease would seem to have benefits for us and the rest of this planets inhabitants.
Makes sense on the surface but opens a whole new can of worms. All of the current growth in world population is from developing countries where the cultural notm is to have as many children as possible, combined with the advances in medicine and hygine that result in most of them surviving to procreate themselves (which didn't happen until the 20th century).
With time they will have less children and pop growth will stabalise. There may be almost 7 billion of us but it's a very big planet
I'm not in favour of goverments telling us how to live our lives and that includes them dictating how many children we can have.
”I'm not in favour of goverments telling us how to live our lives and that includes them dictating how many children we can have.”
Not many people are. The right to breed, even when it’s obviously unsustainable and potentially damaging to the species is always a contentious issue.
Religion would have us believe we are in some way superior to the bests of the fields and its our duty to procreate and spread the good word etc, governments wouldn’t get elected on such an agenda and all those civil liberties people would be up in arms.
Interesting though given our self proclaimed superiority over the beasts of the fields etc and our massive intellect etc etc, we can’t take a responsible and considered approach to over population with regard to resources (the amount of room isn’t relevant).
I’m not sure on what your assumption of population stabilization is based but it hasn’t happened so far, its just the expansion points change over time as economies become more able to support the growth and that, history tells us, is cyclic in nature.
Looks remarkably like viral behavior to me.
kininigin
15-01-2011, 16:46
That doesn't alter my point. Let's say for a minute you're right and certain people can 'see' spirits, if we can call them that? How do you know that what they see is what they think it is?
Put it another way. We deal with humans in our own realm, but are all humans honest? Can you take everything in the physical world at face value? If not then where is the logic in assuming that everything seen in the spiritual realm is what it appears to be?
Incidentally, I think that most of the people who claim to be able to see into the spirit world are charlatans and lairs. I would take anything that any of them said with a huge bag of salt.
To put it simple intuition a certain knowing when you have these experiences you just know deep within yourself.This will probaly won't fly with you as somethings you just have to experience to get.
maybe this link will help explain what i mean.http://www.support4change.com/spirit/explaining-flash.html
Explaining a Spiritual Experience
BY ARLENE HARDER, MA, MFT
This piece describes the difficulty of describing the essence of any spiritual or peak experience.
What is spirituality?
If you were asked for a definition of spirituality, what would you answer? Of course, your definition would be quite different if you were a monotheist, humanist, polytheist, follower of New Age concepts, or Native American.
Would your answer be a definition you've heard from the wise men and women who have taught you about their spiritual experiences, or would you use your own experiences to give your definition of spirituality?
However, if you want to define spirituality because of what you've experienced, as Explaining a Spiritual Experience illustrates, you realize that:
the most important thing about such experiences is the experience itself.
the second most important thing is what you tell yourself about what you've experienced and how that understanding informs your perception of the non-physical world, and
the third most important thing is what you tell others about your experience.
Therefore, once you have had a profound spiritual experience, you are aware of the difficulty of translating your experience into words — and you know this is true for everyone. So when you hear someone else talk about their spiritual experience in words you wouldn't have used, you realize they are merely trying to express the essence of what has happened to them in the best way they can.
Interesting though given our self proclaimed superiority over the beasts of the fields etc and our massive intellect etc etc, we can’t take a responsible and considered approach to over population with regard to resources (the amount of room isn’t relevant).
I’m not sure on what your assumption of population stabilization is based but it hasn’t happened so far, its just the expansion points change over time as economies become more able to support the growth and that, history tells us, is cyclic in nature.
Looks remarkably like viral behavior to me.
I understand your analogy but Homo Sapiens is not a virus. We are merelya species of ape who (at the moment) is running a little out of control. But given all the variables involved it is just too simplistic to draw a straight line upwards from the current trend and say 'we are all screwed if it carries on like this'. Necessity is the mother of invention and we are pretty good at inventing and adapting - that's what made us the dominant species, is it not?
i know i'm a bit late into this Sarah Palin thing, i did try to read it all but started loosing the will to live again ,you can call me uncouth and politically incorrect cnut but i would still give her one though
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/jonboy_01/sarah_palin_bikini-200x300.jpg
“I understand your analogy but Homo Sapiens is not a virus”
As long as you’re sure ;)
I’ll let the thread get back to spiritual experiences and aliens and the rest of the human arrogance those who to search for a purpose in life seem to need.
kininigin
15-01-2011, 17:04
Makes sense on the surface but opens a whole new can of worms. All of the current growth in world population is from developing countries where the cultural notm is to have as many children as possible, combined with the advances in medicine and hygine that result in most of them surviving to procreate themselves (which didn't happen until the 20th century).
With time they will have less children and pop growth will stabalise. There may be almost 7 billion of us but it's a very big planet
I'm not in favour of goverments telling us how to live our lives and that includes them dictating how many children we can have.
In the conspiracy field it is thought that one possible plan of the powers that be is to reduce the world population to around 500 million by cutting off our food supply.This is what GM foods is about.
Reid Malenfant
15-01-2011, 17:07
I’m not sure on what your assumption of population stabilization is based but it hasn’t happened so far, its just the expansion points change over time as economies become more able to support the growth and that, history tells us, is cyclic in nature.
Looks remarkably like viral behavior to me.
I understand your analogy but Homo Sapiens is not a virus. We are merelya species of ape who (at the moment) is running a little out of control. But given all the variables involved it is just too simplistic to draw a straight line upwards from the current trend and say 'we are all screwed if it carries on like this'. Necessity is the mother of invention and we are pretty good at inventing and adapting - that's what made us the dominant species, is it not?
I'm afraid i'm with John on this one, we do behave on a basic level just like a virus :doh: We spread far & wide & consume all the resources until we die out (think Easter Island).
Right now we are consuming (remember that word as is driven by capitalism) the planets resources at a rate that will effectively mean we are in the doo doo inside of about 20 - 30 years. There is only so much land to build cities & houses etc, there is only so much land to grow food on, there is only a limited supply of fossil fuels & yet we keep on devouring it at an ever increasing rate :rolleyes:
When we have finished consuming all this fuel what do you think is going to happen? I'm not sure myself tbh & it doesn't matter how good we are at inventing things because we simply don't have a damn thing to replace this fuel with! It's going to get very ugly indeed imo & frankly i'm glad i probably won't be here to see it :cool:
When we have finished consuming all this fuel what do you think is going to happen? I'm not sure myself tbh & it doesn't matter how good we are at inventing things because we simply don't have a damn thing to replace this fuel with! It's going to get very ugly indeed imo & frankly i'm glad i probably won't be here to see it :cool:
Neither will I ( he says lighting another ciggie and cracking open a beer) - if it does turn out that way. No reason to assume it will, as history tells us, the future is very hard to predict.
Anyway, I'll see your Easter Island and raise you Manhatten Island. They ran out of space... so they went up. There is always a solution where there is a need.
I'm afraid i'm with John on this one, we do behave on a basic level just like a virus :doh: We spread far & wide & consume all the resources until we die out (think Easter Island).
Right now we are consuming (remember that word as is driven by capitalism) the planets resources at a rate that will effectively mean we are in the doo doo inside of about 20 - 30 years. There is only so much land to build cities & houses etc, there is only so much land to grow food on, there is only a limited supply of fossil fuels & yet we keep on devouring it at an ever increasing rate :rolleyes:
When we have finished consuming all this fuel what do you think is going to happen? I'm not sure myself tbh & it doesn't matter how good we are at inventing things because we simply don't have a damn thing to replace this fuel with! It's going to get very ugly indeed imo & frankly i'm glad i probably won't be here to see it :cool:
we all carry on like this and hope someone else will fix it
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/jonboy_01/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg
Reid Malenfant
15-01-2011, 17:22
There is always a solution where there is a need.
Is that so? :eyebrows:
Ok, you have run out of fossil fuel & you need to build skyscrapers to house all the people. You can't move your combine harvester any more so how are you going to grow & harvest crops? Where is this virtually free energy source (such as fossil fuel) that you'll need to move the combine & swing the crane jib?
As i say, when fossil fuel runs out it's going to get very ugly indeed :doh:
Reid Malenfant
15-01-2011, 17:25
we all carry on like this and hope someone else will fix it
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/jonboy_01/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg
& isn't that exactly what is happening right now? :lolsign: We all have our heads buried in the sand & just blindly carry on in the name of capitalism :eyebrows:
Is that so? :eyebrows:
As i say, when fossil fuel runs out it's going to get very ugly indeed :doh:
If it happened overnight - yes it would. But it won't happen ovenight it will take at least another 100 years and will be a gradual decline in use as the price rises with the declining availability, during which time alternatives and new tech will phase in.
Anyway give me a couple of shire horses over a combine harvester anyday - if farming becomes massively labour intensive again at least everyone will have jobs;)
i know i'm a bit late into this Sarah Palin thing, i did try to read it all but started loosing the will to live again ,you can call me uncouth and politically incorrect cnut but i would still give her one though
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
And I thought I was the only one that thinks she's a bit saucy - wrong I know, but yes, I would too... Well Jon and I have found our level of political debate, the rest of you carry on! ;)
Anyway give me a couple of shire horses over a combine harvester anyday - if farming becomes massively labour intensive again at least everyone will have jobs;)
Ah a backwards industrial revolution, sounds good to me
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
And I thought I was the only one that thinks she's a bit saucy - wrong I know, but yes, I would too... Well Jon and I have found our level of political debate, the rest of you carry on! ;)
That's just your standards slipping with age, dude. Happens to us all:)
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
And I thought I was the only one that thinks she's a bit saucy - wrong I know, but yes, I would too... Well Jon and I have found our level of political debate, the rest of you carry on! ;)
debate i will :wanker: thinking about her,
uncouth is my middle name
I can’t help wondering how those who believe in conspiracy theories, alien landing on earth, superhuman powers, etc go about making decisions in their lives :scratch:
It’s not that I don’t accept that government and agencies don’t conspire, but history seems to show they aren’t very good at it. If I had the faith in humanity and in particular groups of it, pulling off a major life altering conspiracy without f*****g it up or getting exposed I reckon I would start voting again :doh:
Nor do I rule out the possibility of other life forms in this universe, or maybe even another universe but given the vast distances likely to be involved in traveling from wherever to here, I cant see them sending a sole emissary without prior contact who then crashes and gets dragged off to a bunker in a desert. The technology required to travel these kinds of distances wouldn’t lend itself readily to error I would have thought.
Where are their mates then?
What irritates me is the arrogance of man that underpins a great many of these alternative views. Why for example should humankind have any extra undeveloped or forgotten senses; vain hopes that we can elevate ourselves from out rather mundane and viral like existence perhaps? We breed; we consume and destroy without consideration for our environment, other species that inhabit the planet and even worse, our own future.
Lets hope this is as smart and superhuman as we get because it seems to me our nature really isn’t fit for any further powers given the mess we have made with what we have.
The quicker we get the job of destroying ourselves done the better imo. Can anyone tell me one thing humankind has done that has benefited the majority of the planets population and should a universal book of “good deeds done” be written we should expect an entry in?
John,
Let me try to help you understand some of the answers to your questions.
if you draw a line from one side of a peice of notebook paper to the other the distance seems long but if you make a dot on each edge of the paper and fold it in the middle the distance all but disapears.
So would it be with advanced space travel.There is the sientificly proven theory of something called worm holes.It seems very possable.
Thats if you assume they are traveling from deep space to begein with.
No matter how advanced the technology,Murphy's law still applys.
Man created the tractor,it has aided in every major population of the world in growing food,building aqcuafurs to supply water and level the ground to prevent flooding,build leveys ect...
It has benifited nearly everyone in the world Even Ethiopia.
There is allready major evedance of global UFO cover up,some countrys are releseing documents mostly in Soulth America but some have come from England.
http://news.discovery.com/space/new-zealand-government-opens-ufo-files.html
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/
http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/ufo/
Reid Malenfant
15-01-2011, 18:26
if you draw a line from one side of a peice of notebook paper to the other the distance seems long but if you make a dot on each edge of the paper and fold it in the middle the distance all but disapears.
So would it be with advanced space travel.There is the sientificly proven theory of something called worm holes.
All very nice in theory, there is one rather large - or should i say small problem :lol: These wormholes only appear at the quantum foam level which is vastly smaller than the smallest partical that we know of. Billions of times smaller than an atom ;)
Now to expand that wormhole to pass something big enough to put a fullstop into would take more power than this whole planet uses in about 100 years. To pass through something the size of a small spaceship would require a lot more, try tapping into your local star :eyebrows:
Just isn't going to happen me thinks...
anthonyTD
15-01-2011, 18:52
hi all,
well,,,here's my two pence worth, i too have my suspicions that there are things happening that we dont fully understand, ie UFO's etc, but the logical side of me thinks the answers may be closer to home than we realise.
for example, what is the globaly excepted frame, stance and looks of the common alian ? small, grey, big eyes,with feabily built limbs etc, well its obvious, they come from somewhere that is relitively dark, with not much space, and little food, when we look at it like that its easy, they are coming from under my stairs!!!:eek::lol:
A...
“No matter how advanced the technology,Murphy's law still applys.”
I rather think Murphy’s Law is only applicable to humans ;)
”There is allready major evedance of global UFO cover up,some countrys are releseing documents mostly in Soulth America but some have come from England.”
Yep, even the English have their share of badly educated irrational thinkers who believe the earth is flat and analogue is better than digital; oh sry, prolly more dominant in Wales now I come to think on it :eek:
Ahemmmm, where was I before I got banned :doh:
Oh arr, and exactly how far away is the nearest wormhole? Can’t help but wonder how having done the really difficult bit of squeezing matter through such a theoretical explanation of an observed phenomena they went and bloody crashed carrying out a simple maneuver like orbiting a planet and even worse, got caught at the scene of the accident.
Come on mate, if you can do worm holes and get from the nearest one to here its going to take more than Murphy’s Law to drop you in the shit.
If aliens have come to this planet, we aint going to know about it until they start feeding off us or evicting us from our homes. We’re just not smart enough to be worth bothering about for anything else.
What I find most disturbing is aliens can be recognized as such. They seem to have funny little mechanical ships and limbs and stuff; a bit like our representations of God, human to a degree. Tell me when its an intelligent micro organism or a communicating wave particle, until then I reserve the right to dismiss the claims of alien life as suspect at best and dangerously deluded at worst.
I read a lot, but I don’t believe a lot of what I read.
For the spiritually inclined my suggested reading is The Tibetan Book Of The Dead and for the followers of religion:
xK3VihNo_yQ
All very nice in theory, there is one rather large - or should i say small problem :lol: These wormholes only appear at the quantum foam level which is vastly smaller than the smallest partical that we know of. Billions of times smaller than an atom ;)
Now to expand that wormhole to pass something big enough to put a fullstop into would take more power than this whole planet uses in about 100 years. To pass through something the size of a small spaceship would require a lot more, try tapping into your local star :eyebrows:
Just isn't going to happen me thinks...
I have never heard that,
But I'm sure there are ways of opening doors that are not so easy to close.
A good example would be people or homes haunted or compleatly possesed by invitation.There are actions/events that act as an invite opening a door to the other side allowing for open passage.
The Tower of Babel story was not really a building phisicly reaching the heavens but a gateway about to be opened in what is now Iraq.The Tower was used as a medafore.
We have found a couple of qaurtz crystal sculls,they are said to hold vast amounts of information.
After careful study they found no tool marks and the detail is impossable to recreate today.Also qaurtz can hold massive amounts of data and can resonate at menny different freqencys.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_6_1.htm
There are just to menny odd things from the past we can't recreate today.
For example the Japanes tried to recreate a pyramid (It didn't go well at all).
hi all,
well,,,here's my two pence worth, i too have my suspicions that there are things happening that we dont fully understand, ie UFO's etc, but the logical side of me thinks the answers may be closer to home than we realise.
for example, what is the globaly excepted frame, stance and looks of the common alian ? small, grey, big eyes,with feabily built limbs etc, well its obvious, they come from somewhere that is relitively dark, with not much space, and little food, when we look at it like that its easy, they are coming from under my stairs!!!:eek::lol:
A...
And the little green ones in leather and gimp masks come from the cupboard between the Lockwoods... :eyebrows:
Reid Malenfant
15-01-2011, 19:08
And the little green ones in leather and gimp masks come from the cupboard between the Lockwoods... :eyebrows:
PMSL :lolsign:
I have never heard that,
But I'm sure there are There are just to menny odd things from the past we can't recreate today.
For example the Japanes tried to recreate a pyramid (It didn't go well at all).
I recall reading about the Jap pyramid - it was supposed to be an exact replica of the Great Pyramid in Giza - as I recall the reason they abandoned it was because they massively underestimated the cost of doing it properly.
I love all that Atlantis/ancient astronauts stuff - read loads of books about it - it entertains me but I don't actually believe any of it, not unquestioningly, anyway.
I recall reading about the Jap pyramid - it was supposed to be an exact replica of the Great Pyramid in Giza - as I recall the reason they abandoned it was because they massively underestimated the cost of doing it properly.
I love all that Atlantis/ancient astronauts stuff - read loads of books about it - it entertains me but I don't actually believe any of it, not unquestioningly, anyway.
It would have cost far more to correct it as it was off axis half way up.
It would have cost far more to correct it as it was off axis half way up.
Yes, there is less than an inch variation in the lengths of the four sides of the Great Pyramid. Not bad for a civilisation that had supposedly not even invented the wheel at that point.
anthonyTD
15-01-2011, 19:30
And the little green ones in leather and gimp masks come from the cupboard between the Lockwoods... :eyebrows:
:D:worthless:
anthonyTD
15-01-2011, 19:37
Yes, there is less than an inch variation in the lengths of the four sides of the Great Pyramid. Not bad for a civilisation that had supposedly not even invented the wheel at that point.
I agree martin,
they are spectacularly acurate.
all joking aside it realy does make you wonder how they built them with the tools and know how they were suposed to have possesed back then, in my mind something dosent add up where Ancient engineering feats of that magnitude are concerned.
A...
Yes, there is less than an inch variation in the lengths of the four sides of the Great Pyramid. Not bad for a civilisation that had supposedly not even invented the wheel at that point.
I'm not trying to say that every bit of folk lore is true,or that every UFO sighting is true.
What I hope to convay is that there is far more we still don't compleatly understand with in our own world.
I have seen some odd things in my life I could never hope to explaine,and I think I'd be ridculed to death should I tell half of them.
It has been eye opening enough to take other peoples storys into consideration with far less skeptesisum.
I had a freind once who has really messed with the occult.
he told me he kept seeing orbs,I had no idea what the hell he was talking about at that time.
He was really an odd guy,I belive he may be bi poler to some degree.
Anyway I pulled up to his house and it was just about dusk,but there was still alot of light left. He was standing in his front yard,as I got out of my pick up.I looked up to see (not kidding around 20 green balls of light orbiting him like planets around the sun.He yelled do you see it.
I couldn't even answer him right away.Stunned at what I was seeing.
It lasted mabey 5 seconds and then they just slowly faded out but not all at once.
I did tell him I see it! after a second or two and he said THANK GOD it's not just me.
I have never seen another orb since that time.I had nothing to drink that day but after seeing that I had a few beers.
If some one here has seen an orb I'd love to hear there story.
I agree martin,
they are spectacularly acurate.
all joking aside it realy does make you wonder how they built them with the tools and know how they were suposed to have possesed back then, in my mind something dosent add up where Ancient engineering feats of that magnitude are concerned.
A...
Dont you know nothing, its becuse they were built by Aliens stupid :doh:
Whats with these worn hole thingies, the only ones i know are the ones my old PE teacher used to accuse me of shagging when we had to do press ups
Jon,It's a theory based in quantum phyisics.
But I belive what we call aliens are a dimentional traveler anyway.
And that has nothing to do with worm holes.
These beings are here because they have been given the right.
They have said this in menny abductions,spanning several decades around the world.
I do not belive they come from other planets.
I belive they are far older than us or even the Earth for that matter.
Jon,It's a theory based in quantum phyisics.
But I belive what we call aliens are a dimentional traveler anyway.
And that has nothing to do with worm holes.
These beings are here because they have been given the right.
They have said this in menny abductions,spanning several decades around the world.
I do not belive they come from other planets.
I belive they are far older than us or even the Earth for that matter.
thats very deep Jeff
thats very deep Jeff
This is inresting.
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/who-is-what.htm
A compleate read,makes me wonder if she's on to something more.
And mabey the are comming from other planets.
Reid Malenfant
15-01-2011, 21:45
Jon,It's a theory based in quantum phyisics.
But I belive what we call aliens are a dimentional traveler anyway.
And that has nothing to do with worm holes.
These beings are here because they have been given the right.
They have said this in menny abductions,spanning several decades around the world.
I do not belive they come from other planets.
I belive they are far older than us or even the Earth for that matter.
Hi Jeff, are you refering to String Theory? If so then in some respects i'd agree with you ;)
Apparently there are 11 dimensions in our universe & we can see 3 & measure 4... Length, width, depth & measure time... This leaves 7 dimensions that we can't see :eyebrows: Let me ask you if you can see a 2 dimensional object, answer is you can't & never will because it's too thin even if it has height & width.
Now what is to say that other universes are exactly where we are in space but seperated due to dimensional differences? After all 7 extra dimensions gives a lot to play with & as they could be one out we'd never see, hear or experience them in any way :eyebrows: There is no such thing as a two dimensional object, it's impossible.
Even pencil leaves a thickness of carbon on paper etc..
So if one of those dimensions was different than ours it'd be like it wasn't there at all :)
Our reallity has so menny holes it is much like swiss cheese.
There are pictures of Pharohs on the walls of Egypt that show men comming only to there knee.Later Pharohs (after the building up of Egypt) are shown as normal size humans.
I used to think the larger size was to be a reflection of there greatness but there skulls where shaped oddly as well at times.
I wasen't commenting in Mr. Hawlkens string theory but trying to better understand what is going on behind the curten.
There is more to our world than what we see and hear during the normal course of our every day lives. But if we are lucky sometimes we see something,like a kid waiting up for Santa to come and sees his parents putting gifts under the tree,stuffing there stocking and eating the plate of cookies.
I have seen things I can't explain and heard storys from people I respect.
Have a conversation with an ordained exorscist,look him in the eye as he tells you what he has experianced. Youll know hes telling the truth.
Then try to ignore it,good luck with that.
Has anyone else here had something happen that just can't be possable?
I'm sure the UK has some storys to tell.
anthonyTD
15-01-2011, 22:23
hi jeff,
if people were honest and open and not afraid to tell their stories i think we may be surprised at what we might learn.;)
A...
Apparently there are 11 dimensions in our universe & we can see 3 & measure 4... Length, width, depth & measure time... This leaves 7 dimensions that we can't see Let me ask you if you can see a 2 dimensional object, answer is you can't & never will because it's too thin even if it has height & width.
Just a couple of additions to that, a common 2D object we see is a shadow. The extra dimensions invoked by the various string theories (though just how they get called theories I don't know, hypothesis would be closer) are all very small, and only are invoked at sub sub atomic dimensions. SR and GR doesn't suggest time is a dimension, it just finds it useful to mathematically treat time in the same manner as the 3 spacial dimensions.
If by ghost you mean entities, spirits, life after death ect then yes.
Humans can only see in the electromagnetic spectrum which measures 0.005% the rest being so called 'dark matter' 95%,ordinary nonluminous matter 4.5% and ordinary luminous matter 0.5%(percentages do not add up to 100% because of rounding) and of that 0.005% humans can only see a fraction of that.
We can detect x rays infrared ect,but we are virtualy blind.It's about frequencies,the faster energy vibrates the less dense it becomes.Cats can see at a higher frequency than humans which is why they seem to react to 'empty space' and we think the cat's gone mad but it's reacting to what it see's because of it's greater visual ability.
So do i think life or 'ghosts' as you call them exist yes and when we do see them( i have first hand experience,not of ghosts in the classic meaning but orbs) it's because either it or the person seeing it has increased or decreased their frequency range.
Imagine you have 5 radio stations and you are tuned into radio one,now the other stations dont cease to exist they are just on a frequency you are not tuned into,as soon as your turn the dial(increase your ability to see more of the electromagnetic spectrum) to radio 2 that's what you here(or see in our case of ghosts).Sometimes these frequencies get very close to each other and you can here 2 radio staions and they both exist at the same time or in our case we can see ghosts.
Im not sure what the point in your question is though colin :scratch:
Sorry guys, been without electricity for two days due to an 'incident'. What that might be, nobody is saying, but kinda spooky considering the direction this thread is taking... (0.0)
Darren, I'd like to congratulate you on your post. It is the most concise and down-to-earth explanation for 'ghosts' that I have ever read. :clap:
Before the cynics get their claws into this, I'd like to relay to all of you an incident I experienced in 1981 at The Bird In Hand public house in Sheep St, Northampton when I was eighteen years old. The three story property that housed the establishment was built in the 18th century as a coaching inn and is a Grade 2 listed building with a lot of interesting history attached to it. It contained two bars on the ground floor plus a games room and the toilet block. the living accommodation occupied the middle and top floors. Sadly it no longer functions as a public house, last orders having been called a couple of years ago.
Back then, I worked for a small electronics company called Gayton Games. They manufactured coin operated video games and, amongst others, held the licence in the UK to produce Williams 'Defender', Namco's 'Pacman' and 'Phoenix', licensed from Taito.
I worked in various departments during my time with the company until I gained enough experience to build the power supplies for both upright and table top machines (the company owner had the option to buy in power supplies, but decided we should develop and manufacture our own).
After finishing my shift plus a considerable amount of overtime one Thursday evening, I returned home to the accommodation above the pub. Mum and Dad were working the Bars and I found my sister watching Top Of The Pops on the TV in the living room which was located on the second story of the building. I was dog tired. Too tired for dinner. So I went to the kitchen, prepared myself a couple of rounds of cheese and pickle sandwiches and a glass of milk then told my sister I was heading for bed as I exited the kitchen into the living room. The stairs to the top story are located near the front of the building and to gain access to the 'S' shaped staircase, I had to negotiate a closed door which opened onto the stairwell. I opened the door and placed the plate containing the sandwiches and the glass of milk onto a small shelf adjacent to the staircase, turned around to face the doorway I'd just stepped through and reversed up a couple of steps and bent to grasp the door handle so I could close the door. The shelf was behind me at this point and the stairs climbed up to a landing to my left. As I pulled the door closed I heard a child giggle. I looked up the stairs and saw a small boy with shocking blonde shoulder length hair peering over the banister that overlooked the staircase. He was beaming a huge smile down at me. I estimated him to be about 4 to 5 years old, dressed in a blue and white striped 'polo style' short sleeved shirt and red shorts. I naturally assumed the lad belonged to one of the customers in the bar and that he had somehow wandered up the stairs behind the bar into the living area without being noticed.
He had such an engaging smile when I looked up at him that I smiled too and asked him what he was doing up there and if he wanted me to take him down to find his Mummy and Daddy. He looked at me with the bluest eyes I have ever seen, giggled again and ran from left to right across the landing and the top of the stairs and through the open door into my bedroom. Raising my eyebrows to myself (after all, I was shattered), I turned to pick up the milk and sandwiches and made my way up the staircase and turned right at the top of the stairs and entered my room. As I walked into the bedroom I called out to him to come take my hand and walk downstairs with me to find his Mum and Dad. To my surprise he was nowhere to be seen. Thinking he was hiding behind my bed, I placed the sandwiches and milk on the bedside cabinet beside my bed and decided to make a game of it. Laughing, I informed the room that I would hunt for him. I threw myself onto the bed and looked down onto the floor on the other side, fully expecting to find him smiling up at me, but he wasn't there. I looked under the bed and both behind and inside my wardrobe to no avail. Then, to my horror, I noticed that the floor to ceiling sash window in my bedroom was open. I hurried to the window and looked down, fully expecting to see the poor lad sprawled all over the pavement in front of the pub, three stories below. My initial feeling of relief gave way to puzzlement. Where the hell was the little tike? There was no way he could have passed me either on the stairs or in the bedroom without me noticing. Even so, I searched all the rooms on each floor, including the two bars and toilet block for him without success.
The incident played on my mind for the rest of the evening and at work the following day. So on the Saturday I visited Northampton Public Library to research the history of the building. After a couple of hours I found some information that stopped me dead in my tracks: On a wet July day in 1903, Simon, the five year old son of the landlord and landlady of the pub had been playing 'Hide and Seek' with his eight year old sister, Emily, on the top landing of the living quarters, when he leaned on the banister overlooking the stairs. Unbeknownst to the occupants of the building, the wooden banister had a severe woodworm infestation and as Simon lent against it, the banister gave way and he tumbled down the flight of stairs, breaking his neck on the way down. :eyebrows:
Wow Dave,
I have never seen a gost but have been made aware of there preasents and that was more than enough for me.I told the story on the Halloween thread.
linked below.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8232
If you’re going to start telling ghost stories I’m going to get my teddy bear before I read any more :(
If you’re going to start telling ghost stories I’m going to get my teddy bear before I read any more :(
:lolsign:
Jeez that put the willies up me Dave! :eek:
Good story, but I'm now seriously creeped out!
me too, i gave me the shaky shivery tingly thing that i always get when such stories are told
Jeez that put the willies up me Dave! :eek:
Good story, but I'm now seriously creeped out!
Sorry dude ;)
Historically, I'm a bit of a wus when it comes to ghost stories, but I can honestly say that at no time during the experience did I feel scared, even after I discovered the lad wasn't there. He had such a charming smile and infectious giggle, and seemed so happy and playful that I'm almost certain he didn't suffer at all. Perhaps he's just missing his playmate. I often wonder if he's been seen by anyone else...
I finally worked my way through this, the oddest thread yet on AoS; started out questioning the sanity of Sarah Palin, politicians in general, questioning the moon landings, aliens, population control, ghosts, pyramids…
Come on forget about these fables, fairy tales, and urban legends and let’s get back to why one cable sounds better than another ;)
But first a couple of comments:
Moon landings; recently saw the Mythbusters episode were they debunked several theories.
Not wanting the government to decide who gets what and how much health care is extreme?
Me, my dad, colleges at work and others I have talked to have been puzzled about all the fuss over the health care reform in the US. Granted I do also think the state here are meddling to much in some cases but still the concept of securing that everybody can get treatment is a human right in my book and I think that we can agree on that.
From all the information that I have absorbed the US have the same level of health care as we do, but the US system cost about 2.5 times as much; in my book it means that it has failed and as such a big reform of any kind is needed.
FYI Everybody here can get treatment and if you or your insurance can pay you can also go to a private hospital. The company I worked for had a health benefit so that if I needed a non-emergency operation like a hip replacement I could jump a possible waiting list and go to the private sector.
Expecting us to cut spending and live within our means is extreme?
Yes we all hate being told what to do; especially when we know that it makes sense ;)
Seriously I have for many years been wondering about the monetary mechanics after I learned about the US deficit in the last 10 years, and how it is “sponsored” by an increased number of state bonds many of which are bought by China. Granted I do not know much about the mechanics but to me it sounds bad in any household.
In the years that have followed the deficit has only grown and now the crisis are here it seems that the parties in the US can only argue instead of working together; there are no easy fixes it will take many years.
Back around 1980, the bad economic policy by several social-democratic governments meant that my country (Denmark) had a huge debt. It was so bad that the social-democrats had to admit it themselves. The conservative/liberal government that replacement them started out with, what became known as the “potato treatment”. After a couple of years the effect was that the number of people that had to give up on their mortgage was 4 times as high as now in this crisis. But it worked and the governments after that continued the work no matter their political standpoint. And when this crisis started we were almost debt free.
In Sweden they started the same exercise around 1990 except that they did more drastic fat cutting in the public sector; an exercise we still have to do here.
But the hard work done during the last 30 years also means that the government has the funds to start projects to help keep the wheels running. Compared to countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc they all have so big debt that they can’t grease the wheels and for them the only way out is to cut, reduce and the save the last penny.
Auch now it is time for me to go look for my pillow
I finally worked my way through this, the oddest thread yet on AoS; started out questioning the sanity of Sarah Palin, politicians in general, questioning the moon landings, aliens, population control, ghosts, pyramids…
Come on forget about these fables, fairy tales, and urban legends and let’s get back to why one cable sounds better than another ;)
But first a couple of comments:
Moon landings; recently saw the Mythbusters episode were they debunked several theories.
Me, my dad, colleges at work and others I have talked to have been puzzled about all the fuss over the health care reform in the US. Granted I do also think the state here are meddling to much in some cases but still the concept of securing that everybody can get treatment is a human right in my book and I think that we can agree on that.
From all the information that I have absorbed the US have the same level of health care as we do, but the US system cost about 2.5 times as much; in my book it means that it has failed and as such a big reform of any kind is needed.
FYI Everybody here can get treatment and if you or your insurance can pay you can also go to a private hospital. The company I worked for had a health benefit so that if I needed a non-emergency operation like a hip replacement I could jump a possible waiting list and go to the private sector.
Yes we all hate being told what to do; especially when we know that it makes sense ;)
Seriously I have for many years been wondering about the monetary mechanics after I learned about the US deficit in the last 10 years, and how it is “sponsored” by an increased number of state bonds many of which are bought by China. Granted I do not know much about the mechanics but to me it sounds bad in any household.
In the years that have followed the deficit has only grown and now the crisis are here it seems that the parties in the US can only argue instead of working together; there are no easy fixes it will take many years.
Back around 1980, the bad economic policy by several social-democratic governments meant that my country (Denmark) had a huge debt. It was so bad that the social-democrats had to admit it themselves. The conservative/liberal government that replacement them started out with, what became known as the “potato treatment”. After a couple of years the effect was that the number of people that had to give up on their mortgage was 4 times as high as now in this crisis. But it worked and the governments after that continued the work no matter their political standpoint. And when this crisis started we were almost debt free.
In Sweden they started the same exercise around 1990 except that they did more drastic fat cutting in the public sector; an exercise we still have to do here.
But the hard work done during the last 30 years also means that the government has the funds to start projects to help keep the wheels running. Compared to countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc they all have so big debt that they can’t grease the wheels and for them the only way out is to cut, reduce and the save the last penny.
Auch now it is time for me to go look for my pillow
The biggest problem with government run health care here is we have no border with Mexico,they come over the boarder importing drugs,steal cars,commit crimes,our prisons are filled with Mexican nationals.
Our schools are full of illeagle childen,and they get free emergency care at the cost of hundreds of hospitles closeing along all the boarder because they can't recive any form of payment yet they leagly can't refuse them.
Obama said there would not be health care for illeagles,he lied,he said it would not be rashened from the elderly or seriously ill he lied there will be death pannels.It raises everyones insurance rate by 50%.to cover any one who walks in to the doctor.
We are taxed to death allready.We are collapseing as it is.
What if the UK had to pay for health care for all of Africa?
That is the kind of deal we where given.
It also forces you by law to buy health care insurance even if your not working to support his giveaway program.
In no unsertan terms it's a big screw job.
The fact is illeagles benifit both partys,they vote democrat for the promis of freebees and the ones that do work,work for cheap driveing down labor rates for buisness (republicans love cheap labor). The value of labor in this country is less than it was pre civil war!
When I was a kid a man with just high school could buy a home and a car and his wife stayed home to raise the kids.
Now both parents work over time and the kids join gangs to get the sense of family there not getting at home.
I finally worked my way through this, the oddest thread yet on AoS; started out questioning the sanity of Sarah Palin, politicians in general, questioning the moon landings, aliens, population control, ghosts, pyramids…
Come on forget about these fables, fairy tales, and urban legends and let’s get back to why one cable sounds better than another ;)
What you are forgetting though is that it just be because of the ghouls, goblins, fairy dust or spooks that one cable sounds better than the other Jan! ;)
Great post, always good to learn something about other countries.
To put it simple intuition a certain knowing when you have these experiences you just know deep within yourself.
You're right, I don't buy any of that. You can't know something is true because of the way you feel about it. Lots of people all over the world believe completely contradictory things yet all feel certain they believe the truth. Many people feel certain that spirits do not exist. Either they do or they don't and how you me or anyone else feels about it will do nothing to alter the fact.
You may well have certain feelings that go along with what you believe but I really don't recommend basing what you believe on them. Feelings lie.
For the spiritually inclined my suggested reading is The Tibetan Book Of The Dead and for the followers of religion:
A cartoon! Oh what a fool I've been. Here's me stupidly thinking that it's best to be logical about the thing and look at the actual evidence when all I need to do was watch a cartoon! ;0)
I once saw a coyote fall three-hundred feet off a cliff and walk away. I had no idea they were so robust.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 11:39
You're right, I don't buy any of that. You can't know something is true because of the way you feel about it. Lots of people all over the world believe completely contradictory things yet all feel certain they believe the truth. Many people feel certain that spirits do not exist. Either they do or they don't and how you me or anyone else feels about it will do nothing to alter the fact.
You may well have certain feelings that go along with what you believe but I really don't recommend basing what you believe on them. Feelings lie.
im not talking about feelings as in emotion, im talking about intuition and knowing,there 2 very different things.
To explain where im coming from i would have to lay some background info and that will take a lot of typing which im not prepared to do as im not trying to convince anyone of anything.This is not a cop out,but i have spent the last 5 years researching these types of subjects which has included 100's of hours of video's, dozen's of books,conferences and personal experiences so trying to incorporate all that in a few posts is not easy.If you are truely looking for some answers to some questions then you really need to read some books or watch a few vids on the subjects.
If you want i'll send you some dvd's or books on me or i can point you to some google/youtube vids.
I'm not talking about feelings as in emotion, I'm talking about intuition and knowing.
Well again I would say that intuition and 'knowing' are largely subjective and can be wrong as easily as they are right. They're quite like 'feeling' in that respect.
If you invest a lot of time on any subject you are more likely to become more sympathetic to it. I'm sure there are thousands of people who hold on to the beliefs they have prominently because they have a lot invested in them. Giving up something you've built your life on can't be easy.
What I'm saying is that there should be sound logic and reason behind what you accept as being true. Intuition and knowing just don't cut it for me either. I'm a very cold, analytical person and I need something a bit more solid than that.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 12:27
Sorry guys, been without electricity for two days due to an 'incident'. What that might be, nobody is saying, but kinda spooky considering the direction this thread is taking... (0.0)
Darren, I'd like to congratulate you on your post. It is the most concise and down-to-earth explanation for 'ghosts' that I have ever read. :clap:
Before the cynics get their claws into this, I'd like to relay to all of you an incident I experienced in 1981 at The Bird In Hand public house in Sheep St, Northampton when I was eighteen years old. The three story property that housed the establishment was built in the 18th century as a coaching inn and is a Grade 2 listed building with a lot of interesting history attached to it. It contained two bars on the ground floor plus a games room and the toilet block. the living accommodation occupied the middle and top floors. Sadly it no longer functions as a public house, last orders having been called a couple of years ago.
Back then, I worked for a small electronics company called Gayton Games. They manufactured coin operated video games and, amongst others, held the licence in the UK to produce Williams 'Defender', Namco's 'Pacman' and 'Phoenix', licensed from Taito.
I worked in various departments during my time with the company until I gained enough experience to build the power supplies for both upright and table top machines (the company owner had the option to buy in power supplies, but decided we should develop and manufacture our own).
After finishing my shift plus a considerable amount of overtime one Thursday evening, I returned home to the accommodation above the pub. Mum and Dad were working the Bars and I found my sister watching Top Of The Pops on the TV in the living room which was located on the second story of the building. I was dog tired. Too tired for dinner. So I went to the kitchen, prepared myself a couple of rounds of cheese and pickle sandwiches and a glass of milk then told my sister I was heading for bed as I exited the kitchen into the living room. The stairs to the top story are located near the front of the building and to gain access to the 'S' shaped staircase, I had to negotiate a closed door which opened onto the stairwell. I opened the door and placed the plate containing the sandwiches and the glass of milk onto a small shelf adjacent to the staircase, turned around to face the doorway I'd just stepped through and reversed up a couple of steps and bent to grasp the door handle so I could close the door. The shelf was behind me at this point and the stairs climbed up to a landing to my left. As I pulled the door closed I heard a child giggle. I looked up the stairs and saw a small boy with shocking blonde shoulder length hair peering over the banister that overlooked the staircase. He was beaming a huge smile down at me. I estimated him to be about 4 to 5 years old, dressed in a blue and white striped 'polo style' short sleeved shirt and red shorts. I naturally assumed the lad belonged to one of the customers in the bar and that he had somehow wandered up the stairs behind the bar into the living area without being noticed.
He had such an engaging smile when I looked up at him that I smiled too and asked him what he was doing up there and if he wanted me to take him down to find his Mummy and Daddy. He looked at me with the bluest eyes I have ever seen, giggled again and ran from left to right across the landing and the top of the stairs and through the open door into my bedroom. Raising my eyebrows to myself (after all, I was shattered), I turned to pick up the milk and sandwiches and made my way up the staircase and turned right at the top of the stairs and entered my room. As I walked into the bedroom I called out to him to come take my hand and walk downstairs with me to find his Mum and Dad. To my surprise he was nowhere to be seen. Thinking he was hiding behind my bed, I placed the sandwiches and milk on the bedside cabinet beside my bed and decided to make a game of it. Laughing, I informed the room that I would hunt for him. I threw myself onto the bed and looked down onto the floor on the other side, fully expecting to find him smiling up at me, but he wasn't there. I looked under the bed and both behind and inside my wardrobe to no avail. Then, to my horror, I noticed that the floor to ceiling sash window in my bedroom was open. I hurried to the window and looked down, fully expecting to see the poor lad sprawled all over the pavement in front of the pub, three stories below. My initial feeling of relief gave way to puzzlement. Where the hell was the little tike? There was no way he could have passed me either on the stairs or in the bedroom without me noticing. Even so, I searched all the rooms on each floor, including the two bars and toilet block for him without success.
The incident played on my mind for the rest of the evening and at work the following day. So on the Saturday I visited Northampton Public Library to research the history of the building. After a couple of hours I found some information that stopped me dead in my tracks: On a wet July day in 1903, Simon, the five year old son of the landlord and landlady of the pub had been playing 'Hide and Seek' with his eight year old sister, Emily, on the top landing of the living quarters, when he leaned on the banister overlooking the stairs. Unbeknownst to the occupants of the building, the wooden banister had a severe woodworm infestation and as Simon lent against it, the banister gave way and he tumbled down the flight of stairs, breaking his neck on the way down. :eyebrows:
Fascinating story dave,i haven't seen anything like that but i have seen orbs.This happened a few weeks ago.I was in my house watching football i forget which game but it was on early evening.I had all the curtains shut and no lights on in the house,i have a frosted glass panel in my front door so there was some daylight in my front room but not much.
As i was watching the game a ball of light appeared above me in my peripheral vision, i looked up to see what it was,what i saw was a ball of light about the size of a tennis ball.It was a soft orange colour like a candle flame in fact if you imagine a can candle flame on its side the size of a tennis ball thats more what it looked like rather than just round.It moved across the ceiling about a 1ft then quickly faded out.It didn't shock me i just noted it and look at my life around me to see if there was any reason i might have seen this,i live in a modern house by the way so no real histiory.
A few days later i was telling this story to my brother and when i finished he looked at me and said he had also seen an orb when he was putting his son to bed.He lives about a 5min walk from me and his sighting was a day after mine.
Another experience i have had,(this is not supernatural more secret technology imo) is in 2006 during the world cup i was living in hereford and watching the england game,it was early afternoon very sunny and hot.During half time i decided to go in the back garden and catch some sun and sat in a chair looking at the sky.After about 10mins i noticed a plane flying from my right going to my left.What drew my attention to it was how low it was as you never usually see commercial planes that low over hereford.I live in reading now so see low planes all the time as they fly into london this is something i noticed straight away so this low plane over hereford was a bit strange.It was low but not quite low enough to make out which company owned it all i know is that it was white with red markings on the tail but i don't think it was virgin.Anyway as i said it was hot and sunny but there were a few small clouds dotted here and there and this plane was going to go behind one of them .As i watched this plane go behind it i thought to myself judging by the size of that cloud and the speed of the plane,i should see the plane in a bout 4-5 seconds.So i waited doing a count in my head,got to 5secs,6secs,7secs,15secs and nothing,it had just dissappeared i mean completly dissappeared.It was a bit of a shock as i was just not expecting it.I started ringing friends family tell them what i'd seen or not seen and they all just fobbed me off.
I know what i saw though and am convinced i saw some type of cloaking device in action.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 12:48
What I'm saying is that there should be sound logic and reason behind what you accept as being true. Intuition and knowing just don't cut it for me either. I'm a very cold, analytical person and I need something a bit more solid than that.
I understand where your coming from i really do.What your doing is what is called left brain thinking.The brain has 2 hemispheres,the left and right side are connected by a bridge called the corpus callosum.The left side of the brain is our 'this world' reality of language and structure what passes for 'logic'and the general 'physical' world perspective;the right side is the creative,the artistic,the 'out there' level of reality.In a balanced 'whole brain' state,the two sides are in harmony,neither dominating the other,with the bridge passing info and insight between the two.Most people live in the left brain perspective the more you are subjected to systems which operate from the left brain perspective like mainstream 'education' 'academia' and 'science' the further you are trapped in the left brain.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 13:29
If you invest a lot of time on any subject you are more likely to become more sympathetic to it. I'm sure there are thousands of people who hold on to the beliefs they have prominently because they have a lot invested in them. Giving up something you've built your life on can't be easy.
My beliefs are not set in concrete,what i believe at this moment in time has come from research,evidence ,personal experiences and other peoples opinions and my intuition.
If i start getting information which challenges my current understanding of things and my intuition is in line with this new info,then i change my beliefs accordenaly.
I know what I saw though and am convinced I saw some type of cloaking device in action.
Well this is what I mean. There could be a perfectly logical reason for the plane disappearing from your view but you are choosing to accept the most unlikely and fanciful explanation possible. It's possible that some secret organisation were choosing to test their new cloaking device over a highly populated area of England, and that they just happened to turn it on as it entered a cloud which obscured the plane from your view, but it's not very probable at all. The only reason it makes any sense to you is that you can't think of any other reason for the plane disappearing. I would suggest that it is far more likely that you just made a mistake than the plane had a cloaking device.
What your doing is what is called left brain thinking
I'm happy to just call it thinking. You may have seen orbs. I have seen twinkly lights on many occasions, usually if I stand up too fast, but I tend no to jump to outlandish conclusions about what they are. I believe in the supernatural but that doesn't mean you have to throw common sense out of the window. By jumping to all sorts of unfounded conclusions about things that you see you are adding two and two to make six-hundred and fifty. You are taking your left brain out and putting it in the freezer!
kininigin
16-01-2011, 14:29
Well this is what I mean. There could be a perfectly logical reason for the plane disappearing from your view but you are choosing to accept the most unlikely and fanciful explanation possible. It's possible that some secret organisation were choosing to test their new cloaking device over a highly populated area of England, and that they just happened to turn it on as it entered a cloud which obscured the plane from your view, but it's not very probable at all. The only reason it makes any sense to you is that you can't think of any other reason for the plane disappearing. I would suggest that it is far more likely that you just made a mistake than the plane had a cloaking device.
I'm happy to just call it thinking. You may have seen orbs. I have seen twinkly lights on many occasions, usually if I stand up too fast, but I tend no to jump to outlandish conclusions about what they are. I believe in the supernatural but that doesn't mean you have to throw common sense out of the window. By jumping to all sorts of unfounded conclusions about things that you see you are adding two and two to make six-hundred and fifty. You are taking your left brain out and putting it in the freezer!
Believe me i looked at the plane incident from a logical point of view,i got friends to come round and i explained how big the cloud was,size of plane from my perspective,angle of plane relating to me and the cloud.Am i saying it is deffinately cloaking technoloy no,is it a possibility yes.
The fact is i saw a plane flying horizontally through a small cloud which didn't come out the other side with no other clouds nearby.Now given that the military have open stated that years ago that they are working on cloaking technology and the fact that billions upon billions has gone into black projects developing military technology isn't it slightly possible that they have developed this stuff and test it.As for being over a highly populated area i wouldn't describe herefordshire as highly populated and it was during an england game in the world cup.If you can offer me another explanation that would be great because your right i cannot think of another explanation to what i saw.To me knowing what i saw and how it all happened the logical reason seems to be cloaking technology.
What you bravely call thinking imo is very limited and my left-right brain info which you conviently left out of your reply seems to prove my point.I may be wrong here but everthing you have written so far points to a limited right brain influence.
When i mention the orb story,i didn't jump to outlandish conclusions about what they are,i just told you what i saw.What outlandish conclusions did i come to?
You say you believe in the supernatural can you explain further i mean how do know the 'supernatural' exists?
Isn't it slightly possible that they have developed this stuff and tested it
Yes, slightly would be my estimation. Just because you can't think of another logical explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. You looked away for a second and looked back at the wrong part of the sky. You suffered a deja vu type episode, you know how certain you can be that you've seen something before? I don't know but your story is far from compelling.
For instance you describe you the plane did not come out of the other side but had some cloaking device been in use that is not what you would have seen. You would have seen a vapour trail come out the other side with nothing at the front of it! Have to be a pretty whizy cloaking device to hide the vapour trail too don't you think? And you describe how low the plane was but the lowest clouds are at least six-and-a-half, seven-thousand feet.
To be honest, a cloaking device is not the most logical explanation I can think of. I wouldn't even come into my head and the fact that you thought of it suggests you're highly predisposed to see conspiracies where they are unlikely to exist. Probably reading too many strange books!
What outlandish conclusions did i come to?
Well you concluded that you didn't imagine it?
You say you believe in the supernatural can you explain further i mean how do know the 'supernatural' exists?
I have never had what you would call a supernatural experience. However I am a Christian. I have examined the claims of the bible and concluded that the most likely explanation is that it is true. It stands up to testing. It also explains why the world is the way it is, why things have happened they way they have and what is going to happen next. I believe in a realm outside of ours because the bible says in exists. I've never seen it but I believe it it there. In fact I believe it is more 'solid' than the physical universe we live in.
Well this is what I mean. There could be a perfectly logical reason for the plane disappearing from your view but you are choosing to accept the most unlikely and fanciful explanation possible. It's possible that some secret organisation were choosing to test their new cloaking device over a highly populated area of England, and that they just happened to turn it on as it entered a cloud which obscured the plane from your view, but it's not very probable at all. The only reason it makes any sense to you is that you can't think of any other reason for the plane disappearing. I would suggest that it is far more likely that you just made a mistake than the plane had a cloaking device.
I'm happy to just call it thinking. You may have seen orbs. I have seen twinkly lights on many occasions, usually if I stand up too fast, but I tend no to jump to outlandish conclusions about what they are. I believe in the supernatural but that doesn't mean you have to throw common sense out of the window. By jumping to all sorts of unfounded conclusions about things that you see you are adding two and two to make six-hundred and fifty. You are taking your left brain out and putting it in the freezer!
Colin,I get what your saying,I wasen't planning on telling this story but I will because you don't feel we test super secret stuff over poulated areas,I belive we do.
In December of 93 I was working till 11:30pm at a high school campus (night custodian) with a leadman and another night Custodian. The time was exactly 11:15PM I was locking my master keys in the lock box when the other night guy outside the basement where I was started yelling his head off.
I couldn't make out what was being said,I thought someone was messing with our cars.As this was a very bad neighborhood.
I ran out to see him just standing there looking up with his jaw open.
The leadman was a little slow and had been dumping the last of his trash,he was so scared I saw him and yelled Rick look up! He said no! No! He could hear and feel the low vibration comming from this thing and that was enough to scare the hell out of him.(later he told us he had seen a simaler thing there with another crew years before)
When I looked up what I saw did not fit any conventional discription of anything I had ever heard of.Remember we had just revealed the new stealth bomber at that time so people insisted that is what we must have seen.
It was triangle shaped but not all sides being equal.The best way to discribe the shape is pie shaped,It had 6 very large lights on the bottom,there color and brightness resembaled mercury vaper lights,It had a red flashing strobe in the front and two white flashing strobes in the back.It had two huge tail fins that would put a 58 plymouth Fury to shame.http://www.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=plymouth+fury&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=m0ozTZv3MI_msQPTvL2TBg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQsAQwAA&biw=1280&bih=629
It looked smooth,seemless and was a powder gray in color.
The windows if thats what they where looked like long slits and where dark.
It looked to have at least two levels judgeing by the windows.
It passed very low and close to us so we could see details,There was a full moon and low clouds and it came from the east headed to the west and went over the foot ball feild as it left over 100 meters long and very tall.It had no jet motors and left no vapor trail.And did not fly as much as it hovored. and could not have supported it's self in flight with technology as I know it.
You couldn't hear it nearly as much as you could feel the pulseing vibration.
I felt then it was the Arora project,rumors have been buzzing for years that it was being built out of Area 51 in Nevada where the SR71 was created from 1950.
So yes I belive we test super secret stuff out in plain sight as it is so easy here to discredit people who see it.
BTW:This thing could not have been swamp gas...
Reid Malenfant
16-01-2011, 20:22
We are all made of star dust ;) Get used to the fact... Everything you see around you, all the elements that are heavier than iron were created in supernova explosions of dieing massive stars :cool:
In the beginning there was light, hydrogen & helium & it would have been the brightest light anyone would ever see if there was anyone about to see it :lol:
you don't feel we test super secret stuff over populated areas,I believe we do.
No, that's not what I said. I was just considering the one incident of the vanishing airliner.
I do think the US probably have ton of stuff we know little about. Weapons and technology that's never been out of the box. I believe that some of the weird stuff people spot in the sky very probably is new military gubbins.
In the beginning there was light, hydrogen & helium & it would have been the brightest light anyone would ever see if there was anyone about to see it :lol:
I don't know about hydrogen & helium, but there's plenty of methane being expelled on this thread!
Marco.
Colin,
I belive alot of my experiences have been in places and times when it has been quite.
I wonder how much stuff happens in plain sight but because we are distracted it gets right past us.
One thing I can say is 99% of the time my anttena is always up,I am always paying attention to what is happening around me.
Reid Malenfant
16-01-2011, 20:31
I don't know about hydrogen & helium, but there's plenty of methane being expelled on this thread!
Marco.
:lolsign:
kininigin
16-01-2011, 20:50
Yes, slightly would be my estimation. Just because you can't think of another logical explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. You looked away for a second and looked back at the wrong part of the sky. You suffered a deja vu type episode, you know how certain you can be that you've seen something before? I don't know but your story is far from compelling.
For instance you describe you the plane did not come out of the other side but had some cloaking device been in use that is not what you would have seen. You would have seen a vapour trail come out the other side with nothing at the front of it! Have to be a pretty whizy cloaking device to hide the vapour trail too don't you think? And you describe how low the plane was but the lowest clouds are at least six-and-a-half, seven-thousand feet.
To be honest, a cloaking device is not the most logical explanation I can think of. I wouldn't even come into my head and the fact that you thought of it suggests you're highly predisposed to see conspiracies where they are unlikely to exist. Probably reading too many strange books!
Well for a start i didn't look away for a second and even if i did as i explained it was a virtualy clear day no more than 4 clouds in my field of vision at very big distances from each other,it would have to suddenly travel at mach 10 speed in silence.As for your deja vu :lol:
IF a cloaking device was used then i would see nothing.Low clouds can from the GROUND upto around 7000ft.Contrails or 'vapour trails' as you call them form from about 8000ft and then only when the air is cold enough and like i said it was a very hot clear day so possible harder for contrails to form at low heights.As i said before i live in reading and see planes coming into land all the time and guess what no contrails they only form at high altitude and if it's cold enough.You clearly don't know what your talking about here.
I didn't think cloaking device as soon as the incident happened at the time i just didn't know,still don't.It was years later i came to the conclusion it was a cloaking device just my opinion.
Reid Malenfant
16-01-2011, 20:53
How about it simply changed direction & was therefor obscured by the cloud for much longer than you anticipated? :)
You clearly don't know what your talking about here.
Ok, it was a top secret cloaking device. Sorry for being so thick ;0)
I don't know about hydrogen & helium, but there's plenty of methane being expelled on this thread!
Marco.
:lolsign: that's a posh word for shit Marco
anthonyTD
16-01-2011, 21:08
hi all,
reading through this thread makes me realise how many people there must be in the world who judge everything by what we currently know and can prove, therefore dismissing everthing that cannot be proven by current test methods as either rubbish or human error, i for one feel that without an open mind we humans could not or would not have gotten to the current state of technological advancement on which we judge everything!!! so to close our minds this far in and think that we need not learn anymore or to not even try would be a tragedy, if we could go back a relitively short time in history to for eg; the edwardian days and tell someone that it would be posible to talk to someone anywhere in the world on a device as small as a glasses case or be able to travel at twice the speed of sound, or even to watch their favourite film star on a screen in their own living room, what do you think they would have said ?
it is my belief that most of us from time to time experience things that defy our current understanding, however' that does not mean that we are always mistaken or that it didnt happen.
Anthony,TD...
kininigin
16-01-2011, 21:13
Well you concluded that you didn't imagine it?
So if i see something like an orb and come to the conclusion i didn't imagine it that is an outrageous conclusion in your book is it? :lol:
I have never had what you would call a supernatural experience. However I am a Christian. I have examined the claims of the bible and concluded that the most likely explanation is that it is true. It stands up to testing. It also explains why the world is the way it is, why things have happened they way they have and what is going to happen next. I believe in a realm outside of ours because the bible says in exists. I've never seen it but I believe it it there. In fact I believe it is more 'solid' than the physical universe we live in.
The reason you have concluded that the most likely explanation is it is true is because you have i would suggest, a belief system to defend and so filter out any info to the contary.You said ' I believe in a realm outside of ours because the bible says in exists. I've never seen it but I believe it it there. In fact I believe it is more 'solid' than the physical universe we live in.
How the hell is that statement any different than me saying there are other dimensions in which entities exist.:scratch:I have given you far more credible info as to why i think the way i do or believe what i believe and everytime you have mocked and said there's no proof.You even said 'I'm a very cold, analytical person and I need something a bit more solid than that'.Next thing you say 'because the bible says so'.
As far as im concerned you counter auguments are and i mean no offence a bit lame.Sorry colin im not prepared to play your game where you move the goal posts when you want proof of something or quote one sentence from what i have written and use it out of context.
How about it simply changed direction & was therefor obscured by the cloud for much longer than you anticipated? :)
We had alot of people reporting helocopters here in the U.S. with the ability to dissapear but could still be clearly heard.
I worked with a older guy who owned a body shop who claimed his uncle was on board a ship during an experament,they made it dissaper and when it came back some of the men where fused with parts of the ship and died very quickly.
The ones that lived where very sick and did'nt live more than a few years.
I was told it was done useing some kind of electromagnetic generator regulated to a specific freqency based on the mass of the ship but details where top secret.
The man that told me about this was dead serious and was a pretty streight forward person not prone to B.S.
It was no secret to his family and he felt they never should have tested it with anyone on board.His uncle didn't live very long after wards and came home very sick for the rest of his short life.
At some point you just have to come to the conclusion that there just might be is a hell of alot that goes on that we are clueless about.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 21:28
How about it simply changed direction & was therefor obscured by the cloud for much longer than you anticipated? :)
Yes i did consider this but the cloud was from where i was looking about 10 times longer than the plane so not that big.
Maybe if i explain a different way you can get a better idea.Say you have a piece of A4 paper on it's side.On the right hand side draw a plane about 20mm long now in the middle of the paper draw a typical cartoon cloud,if you know what i mean about 200mm wide now hold the paper in the air imagine that the plane is flying towards the cloud in a straight line and there are no other clouds nearby and it's a clear day.For that plane to change direction and stay behind the cloud it would have to pull off an impossible manuvre for a commercial plane.
I know none of you have met me but people seem to think im some sort of idiot :ner:
Do you have a funny-shaped head, Darren? I usually find folk with misshaped heads quite often display idiotic tendencies.... ;)
My head was accidentally jammed in a vice when I was five, which left a small but perfectly formed dent.
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
16-01-2011, 21:38
I know none of you have met me but people seem to think im some sort of idiot :ner:
On the contrary, only you have suggested that by just bringing it up :eyebrows:
I thought you said (though i may be wrong) that it was a military aircraft & thus not commercial? Have you actually seen how fast a fighter jet can change direction? It's pretty scary & 10g (10 x gravitational pull) isn't out of the realms of possibility :eek:
Just found this on youtube,I was suprised it's just like Roger said,I googled disapearing ship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChjyCR8V2Bg
kininigin
16-01-2011, 21:42
Do you have a funny-shaped head, Darren? I usually find folk with misshaped heads quite often display idiotic tendencies.... ;)
My head was accidentally jammed in a vice when I was five, which left a small but perfectly formed dent.
Marco.
no it's all my own doing,my mum is so proud of me and that's all that matters :lolsign:
anthonyTD
16-01-2011, 21:42
Just found this on youtube,I was suprised it's just like Roger said,I googled disapearing ship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChjyCR8V2Bg
surprised you havent heard about the philidelphia project before now! :scratch:
kininigin
16-01-2011, 21:43
On the contrary, only you have suggested that by just bringing it up :eyebrows:
I thought you said (though i may be wrong) that it was a military aircraft & thus not commercial? Have you actually seen how fast a fighter jet can change direction? It's pretty scary & 10g (10 x gravitational pull) isn't out of the realms of possibility :eek:
no it was a commercial plane and diffenately not a fighter jet i can just about tell the difference but im not a pilot :lol:
Reid Malenfant
16-01-2011, 21:44
surprised you havent heard about the philidelphia project before :scratch:
Oh no, not the invisible ship....
kininigin
16-01-2011, 21:48
Look im not trying to get anyone to believe what im saying or what i think i know.
I had a experience,i told my story make of it what you will,it's not my concern.
Now where's that sarah palin pic,i need to relieve some stress :wanker: :lolsign:
Will you need a moisture-proof one? ;)
Marco.
surprised you havent heard about the philidelphia project before now! :scratch:
I heard about it in the 84 or 85 but I didn't know the name of the ship (the Eldrege or where the experement took place Philidephia.
I do seem to remember a movie about the Philidelphia project but I don't belive I have ever seen it.And I didn't know it was about a ship disapearing.
I am not a T.V. watcher.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 22:00
Oh no, not the invisible ship....
Did i tell you the story about an invisible plane :lolsign:
kininigin
16-01-2011, 22:04
Will you need a moisture-proof one? ;)
Marco.
well if you have a laminater fab,i hate wasting paper
Reid Malenfant
16-01-2011, 22:05
Yes i believe you attempted to, what you didn't explain was how you'd fit the power generators into an aircraft as you'd need a sh*t load of power to generate a big magnetic field around the aircraft (if the USS Eldridge story is to be taken with more than a pinch of salt) ;)
anthonyTD
16-01-2011, 22:15
thats not how they do it these days mark...;)
kininigin
16-01-2011, 22:20
Yes i believe you attempted to, what you didn't explain was how you'd fit the power generators into an aircraft as you'd need a sh*t load of power to generate a big magnetic field around the aircraft (if the USS Eldridge story is to be taken with more than a pinch of salt) ;)
wow i've gone from a crazy nutjob to Scientist working on secret technology,life is looking good ;) i don't have a clue but i would suggest that they have technology far more advanced than what we see in the public.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 22:24
hi all,
reading through this thread makes me realise how many people there must be in the world who judge everything by what we currently know and can prove, therefore dismissing everthing that cannot be proven by current test methods as either rubbish or human error, i for one feel that without an open mind we humans could not or would not have gotten to the current state of technological advancement on which we judge everything!!! so to close our minds this far in and think that we need not learn anymore or to not even try would be a tragedy, if we could go back a relitively short time in history to for eg; the edwardian days and tell someone that it would be posible to talk to someone anywhere in the world on a device as small as a glasses case or be able to travel at twice the speed of sound, or even to watch their favourite film star on a screen in their own living room, what do you think they would have said ?
it is my belief that most of us from time to time experience things that defy our current understanding, however' that does not mean that we are always mistaken or that it didnt happen.
Anthony,TD...
Well said,there's nothing more to add to that really.
kininigin
16-01-2011, 22:29
i once saw a mermaid but that's a story for another time
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/10/invisibility-cloak-scient_n_117998.html
mabey this is it.
I have never had what you would call a supernatural experience. However I am a Christian. I have examined the claims of the bible and concluded that the most likely explanation is that it is true. It stands up to testing. It also explains why the world is the way it is, why things have happened they way they have and what is going to happen next. I believe in a realm outside of ours because the bible says in exists. I've never seen it but I believe it it there. In fact I believe it is more 'solid' than the physical universe we live in.
What I'm saying is that there should be sound logic and reason behind what you accept as being true. Intuition and knowing just don't cut it for me either. I'm a very cold, analytical person and I need something a bit more solid than that.
I'm sorry, but these two statements don't sit well together... :scratch:
Surely Faith is just that, however one chooses to apply it. Faith is a personal thing, and it is entirely wrong to question it in others, however outlandishly it may differ from our own. I have faith that eventually we will interact with an intelligent species which has evolved outside of Earths biosphere...
I'm sorry, but these two statements don't sit well together... :scratch:
Surely Faith is just that, however one chooses to apply it. Faith is a personal thing, and it is entirely wrong to question it in others, however outlandishly it may differ from our own. I have faith that eventually we will interact with an intelligent species which has evolved outside of Earths biosphere...
Some Day our freind Colin will see something he will not be able to explain away.
It will change everything for him.
And if he reads enough mabey he will understand that the Bible he has been reading as well as the Tora and the book of Enoch, Jubille ect...
Will help him to understand even more about his faith and just what God has been at war with.
I belive the these events not to be paranormal at all,and are older than the Earth itself.We are just not meant to see them.
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