View Full Version : HS2 watch and weep
Do you think in 20 years time or whenever they get their act together HS2 will get anywhere close to this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUXW3BENjsQ
Do you think in 20 years time or whenever they get their act together HS2 will get anywhere close to this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUXW3BENjsQ
I can't see the point of this 'luxury train'. I've travelled on their 'bullet' train whilst in Japan, and that was sufficiently fast, comfortable and efficient. If HS2 will be of similar quality that will be good enough for me.
I can't see the point of this 'luxury train'. I've travelled on their 'bullet' train whilst in Japan, and that was sufficiently fast, comfortable and efficient. If HS2 will be of similar quality that will be good enough for me.
Fair enough.
The difference is that in Japan the train is always running whereas here if it's not broken down or cancelled due to the wrong type of snow or leaves on the line, the drivers are on strike because £70k a year's not enough money for them.
The difference is that in Japan the train is always running whereas here if it's not broken down or cancelled due to the wrong type of snow or leaves on the line, the drivers are on strike because £70k a year's not enough money for them.
I watch a lot of videos on Japan and they seem to be light years ahead of us in so many areas. But maybe that has always been the way - HIFI???
average is about 60k but they all do overtime at enhanced rates no doubt... bloody good money these days compared to way back
I watch a lot of videos on Japan and they seem to be light years ahead of us in so many areas. But maybe that has always been the way - HIFI???
Hi fi, yes. Funny thing is I don't have any Japanese-made components in any of my systems any more, or indeed anything from any Japanese hi-fi company, except for a Technics equalizer in the TV system.
They did all the best turntables IMO.
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 13:41
The difference is that in Japan the train is always running whereas here if it's not broken down or cancelled due to the wrong type of snow or leaves on the line, the drivers are on strike because £70k a year's not enough money for them.
To be fair, we all need £70k a year to make rail travel affordable.
hifinutt
27-05-2023, 14:41
should this be in Abstract chat section?
Personally when i travel on German and swiss trains and see the huge investment they have made then we lag behind badly and am 100% behind HS2
hifinutt
27-05-2023, 15:55
thanks for moving this mods
should this be in Abstract chat section?
Personally when i travel on German and swiss trains and see the huge investment they have made then we lag behind badly and am 100% behind HS2
Yes Phil it should be in Abstract chat.
Sherwood
27-05-2023, 17:11
I travelled from Kyoto to Tokyo on the bullet train. Very fast and very smooth, but also a bit cramped. Not much space for my Samsonite wheelie IIRC.
I don't think HS2 is going to be anywhere as near fast as the Japanese bullet train. We will be lucky if it is actually even faster than what we currently have with all the excuses the rail companies come up with for delays, cancellations and stoppages!
But you will probably pay twice the price for using it?:rolleyes:
Total waste of money and all for a few nobs
This need for speed etc is a madness in modern society
Total waste of money and all for a few nobs
This need for speed etc is a madness in modern society
I agree.
hifi_dave
27-05-2023, 17:55
Total waste of money and all for a few nobs
This need for speed etc is a madness in modern society
The reason HS2 is 'faster' than a normal train from London to Birmingham is that it doesn't stop anywhere on the way. It goes from central London to Birmingham, which might be handy if you live in London and only want to go to Birmingham central for 4 x the price. However, i believe they are now considering terminating on the outskirts of London and not going into central London.
So, it's a very specific journey for an awful lot of money. You would do a lot better by going door to door by car, or even taxi. What a total waste of money, they could build dozens of Hospitals for the billions this stupid train is costing.
from pretty much the end of my street I can get a train direct to Euston, takes about an hour and twenty minutes. Not sure how much faster it could be.
Politicians like to have these big vanity projects, means they have got some concrete achievement they can point out in their memoirs. Also means there's tens of billions in semi-accountable taxpayer money washing around so a lot of cronies and party donors can wet their beaks.
We'd be better off with a second M6 IMO. Or even better, not spending the money at all.
I think the train from Stafford to London is about 1hour 15 mins without any stops but these are far and few between.
If HS2 does not stop at Euston and they are planning for it to stop on the outskirts of London at some place nobody has heard of will result in more agro getting another train to actually reach the centre of London. You can't tell me this will all be quicker than what we already have from Birmingham.
Total project seems certainly a waste of money and I can't wait to see the astronomical ticket prices they are bound to ask for the privilege of using it!
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 18:30
Yeah we don't need em faster, we just need em to turn up when they're supposed to and straightforward fare pricing that doesn't take the piss.
I think the train from Stafford to London is about 1hour 15 mins without any stops but these are far and few between.
If HS2 does not stop at Euston and they are planning for it to stop on the outskirts of London at some place nobody has heard of will result in more agro getting another train to actually reach the centre of London. You can't tell me this will all be quicker than what we already have from Birmingham.
Total project seems certainly a waste of money and I can't wait to see the astronomical ticket prices they are bound to ask for the privilege of using it!
think Stafford is on a branch line. The main line train is regular but the only stops are Glasgow, Manchester, Stoke, Milton Keynes and London Euston.
I used to use it quite a lot up to ten years ago, it was a reliable service although if you didn't book in advance (which I never did) it was £70 return even back then.
should this be in Abstract chat section?
Personally when i travel on German and swiss trains and see the huge investment they have made then we lag behind badly and am 100% behind HS2
Swiss trains sure but German trains recently? All the Germans I know moan about the lack of investment and poor timekeeping and I have lost count of the number of cancellations I have experienced on the German train system in the last decade.
Lawrence001
30-05-2023, 22:10
https://youtu.be/Z7W7q7pWygU
Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk
Latest estimate for a ticket on HS2 from Manchester to London £180-£240. That's if it ever gets to Manchester.
When you reach London you won't be going to Euston but a place called Old Oak Common. Another 15 mins if your lucky. Euston is 2041-2043!!!!
So from Birmingham HS2 will take about 45 mins + another 15mins from Old Oak common. 1 change and all the agro. Estimate price -sorry can't find one as they are too frightened to tell anyone.
There is a train from Stafford to London Euston that currently takes 1 hour 16 mins. Off peak single ticket £39.40.
This is not looking good either for time saving or cost!:uhho:
I think the idea is to resolve capacity problems, only so many trains you can run on the one track.
just to try and make good on tory promises tbh. they know its nonsense but dont have guts to admit it as their right will slaughter them and demand more Boris etc... a prty that is long past their sell by tbh
just to try and make good on tory promises tbh. they know its nonsense but dont have guts to admit it as their right will slaughter them and demand more Boris etc... a prty that is long past their sell by tbh
It was actually proposed in 2003 by the Labour government and the coalition government got it underway.
It was actually proposed in 2003 by the Labour government and the coalition government got it underway.True but it has been a Tory promise for years to extend it no matter the fact it's become a blonde elephant
I can't see it as a vote-winner myself. I've never met anyone who's in the slightest bit keen on it.
I suppose if you live in NW London and go to Birmingham a lot it might be handy but that can't be many people.
Whatever the party in power there's always some crazy expensive public infrastructure project on the go. All that taxpayer money pouring into a big trough.
That's the real reason they're building it. Lots of pals, cronies, donors etc get to wet their beaks.
I can't see it as a vote-winner myself. I've never met anyone who's in the slightest bit keen on it.
I suppose if you live in NW London and go to Birmingham a lot it might be handy but that can't be many people.
Whatever the party in power there's always some crazy expensive public infrastructure project on the go. All that taxpayer money pouring into a big trough.
That's the real reason they're building it. Lots of pals, cronies, donors etc get to wet their beaks.
sure they see it as a pro of brexit;) they are nuts you know and as you say only really interested in big troughs they can dip their hands into... the pandemic was a huge bonus to them.... bassas
sure they see it as a pro of brexit;) they are nuts you know and as you say only really interested in big troughs they can dip their hands into... the pandemic was a huge bonus to them.... bassas
what's the connection with Brexit? It was started long before that and it was always going to happen regardless of party or the EU situation.
I think that originally it was part of the EU project to connect the whole super-state with high speed rail. That's going back to the 1990s at least.
I can't see it as a vote-winner myself. I've never met anyone who's in the slightest bit keen on it.
I suppose if you live in NW London and go to Birmingham a lot it might be handy but that can't be many people.
Whatever the party in power there's always some crazy expensive public infrastructure project on the go. All that taxpayer money pouring into a big trough.
That's the real reason they're building it. Lots of pals, cronies, donors etc get to wet their beaks.
With so many folk working from home and because the trains are always on strike there will be absolutely no chance it is going to me used to full capacity.
First year everyone will go on it for novelty. Then when they consider the astronomical ticket prices they will either drive all get the snail mail train at a fraction of the cost.
what's the connection with Brexit? It was started long before that and it was always going to happen regardless of party or the EU situation.
I think that originally it was part of the EU project to connect the whole super-state with high speed rail. That's going back to the 1990s at least.
Yes it was part of an EU superstate rail system. We are now slowly being cut off from what already exists via Eurotunnel as the routes this takes are now being limited. No Disneyland connection and probably more to be axed leaving our little island cut off from mainland Europe. Air fares will probably keep going up as do holidays for Brits in Europe. A one week package holiday in Espana is now £926 per person!
Lawrence001
29-06-2023, 19:51
Hopefully we will all have more staycations and help the UK economy. Not so good for tourists coming here from Europe though, so swings and roundabouts.
Lawrence001
29-06-2023, 19:51
With so many folk working from home and because the trains are always on strike there will be absolutely no chance it is going to me used to full capacity.
First year everyone will go on it for novelty. Then when they consider the astronomical ticket prices they will either drive all get the snail mail train at a fraction of the cost.The snail mail train that gets you to central London in the same time [emoji23]
Lawrence001
29-06-2023, 19:53
I think the idea is to resolve capacity problems, only so many trains you can run on the one track.That wasn't the original idea but when the costs tripled the cost benefit analysis didn't add up. As politicians and civil servants refuse to ever admit mistakes, they changed the purpose of the project to try and make the sums add up.
We are now slowly being cut off from what already exists via Eurotunnel as the routes this takes are now being limited. No Disneyland connection and probably more to be axed leaving our little island cut off from mainland Europe.
'Fog In Channel. Continent Isolated'
Whether it’s worth it or not in national accounting terms, I would point out that the HS1 upgrades radiating out of St Pancras have transformed the fortunes of the hitherto shabby towns in north Kent served by the line, and has made some affordable and realistically commutable housing available. I don’t think that effect was foreseen by the naysayers.
The line has also considerably relieved pressure on the existing commuter and freight lines, which is, I believe, the actual economic justification for HS2 as well.
I do wonder, however, if passenger traffic and levelling up are the priorities, whether the crying prior need isn’t actually for the HS3 Liverpool to Newcastle trans-Pennine route.
Lawrence001
30-06-2023, 17:18
Whether it’s worth it or not in national accounting terms, I would point out that the HS1 upgrades radiating out of St Pancras have transformed the fortunes of the hitherto shabby towns in north Kent served by the line, and has made some affordable and realistically commutable housing available. I don’t think that effect was foreseen by the naysayers.
The line has also considerably relieved pressure on the existing commuter and freight lines, which is, I believe, the actual economic justification for HS2 as well.
I do wonder, however, if passenger traffic and levelling up are the priorities, whether the crying prior need isn’t actually for the HS3 Liverpool to Newcastle trans-Pennine route.
One of the points of cost benefit analysis is to see if the money can be better spent another way. Using the HS1 money in different ways could have improved the towns more if the cost benefit analysis was net negative
These things are so complex that it's impossible to even guess at the cost/benefit before it's finished and been in use for a few years.
Of course they'll claim otherwise but it's just fortune-telling.
One of the points of cost benefit analysis is to see if the money can be better spent another way. Using the HS1 money in different ways could have improved the towns more if the cost benefit analysis was net negative
Agreed. But before you get to that process, business planning also bumps up against the notion of Parliamentary democracy.
Given that the role of the civil service is to deliver the government’s policy, as limited by Parliamentary votes on scope of spending, there is usually very little fundamental strategic challenge in the development of business cases, so the scope is already bounded. What cost/benefit analysis tells you is what the most promising way of skinning the cat is, not whether you should be skinning the cat at all.
HS2 back in the news again today. This time it looks like indecision and procrastination over Euston station. Seems like the government don't know what they want to do with the new Station and in the meantime costs are rocketing.
Yet another project that shows this government couldn't manage a sweet shop.
Sherwood
07-07-2023, 13:05
I've bitten my tongue up to now, but having read some of the more recent posts on this thread, I feel that I need to step forward. I'm an economist by profession with my specialty being the economics of the health sector. As such, I am intimately acquainted with the principles and methods of economic appraisal and economic evaluation and have been commissioned to undertake numerous large scale appraisals myself. For the uninitiated, economic appraisal is forward-looking and used to determine the economic worth or viability of a potential investment. Economic evaluation, in contrast, focuses on how best to achieve a particular objective, rather than whether it is worthwhile. Typically, both approaches require that inputs and outputs be expressed in monetary terms. Historically, this has presented major challenges for those seeking to use cost benefit analysis as the basis for investment decisions. The problem lies in how to place a monetary value on “benefits” which can be wide ranging in scope and often somewhat intangible. Such valuations are necessarily highly subjective, especially for projects with social objectives where benefits may include factors such as lives saved/ deaths averted. The Treasury’s Business Case Model provides a framework for project appraisal, but even with these guidelines many subjective assumptions are inevitable.
In my field of expertise, economists have largely abandoned efforts at cost benefit analysis and focused instead on methods such as cost effectiveness analysis and cost utility analysis. These techniques seek to determine how much it costs to achieve a particular health output or outcome. Cost effectiveness analysis typically calculates the unit costs of specific activities, such as: an ambulance journey, a GP consultation, or a hospital procedure. The more recent technique of cost utility analysis attempts to measure unit costs in terms of health improvement per se. Often, the measure of a quality adjusted life year will be used. In developing countries, the disability adjusted life year is more common. Instead of focusing on whether an activity or investment is worthwhile, these techniques typically seek to determine which of several alternative methods most efficiently meets a particular objective. It is then left to funding agencies to determine whether the incremental costs of a particular health intervention is worth the improvement in health achieved.
With that preamble, we come to HS2. IIRC, the original economic appraisal for HS2 was undertaken over a decade ago. On the basis of then current costs and the assumptions made, the report concluded a healthy cost benefit ratio of more than two to one. In other words, for every pound spent more than two pounds in benefits would accrue. Herein lies the problem: on large infrastructure projects with a long time scale, assumptions can and do change. Clearly, recent and substantial rises in interest rates will adversely affect the cost benefit ratio. So too will any changes in the scope of the project as well as delays in its implementation.
A recent report on HS2 by an influential policy think tank, states the following:
“Unnoticed until now, the latest business case, published in June 2022, gives HS2 a central benefit-cost ratio (BCR) of 0.9.10 In other words, it will cost more to build than the value of the benefits it delivers. For every £1 it spends on the scheme, the country gets back benefits worth only 90p. Including “wider economic impacts,” HS2’s BCR rises to 1.1, still extremely low. But even this is a significant overstatement. The BCR calculation assumes that HS2 will cover its operating and renewals costs entirely through fares, though no other railway in Britain does both and most, especially now, do neither. The construction cost which the BCR uses is below even the official price, let alone the real one.”
“HS2 describes itself as “the UK’s flagship transport levelling-up project.”11 Again little noticed in its official economic case, however, is a table showing that almost half (43%) of its benefits go to London and the South-East12, meaning its effect in narrowing regional inequality will be little better than neutral. This calculation was done before the shortening of the leg to Yorkshire. HS2’s claim that it will “creat[e] 500,000 extra jobs”13 is, as we show, an absurd exaggeration”.
https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/hs2-the-kindest-cut-of-all/#:~:text=But%20the%20Government's%20own%20figures, impacts (https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/hs2-the-kindest-cut-of-all/#:~:text=But%20the%20Government's%20own%20figures, impacts))%20for%20the%20full%20scheme.
In short, CBA is a highly subjective methodology, and highly sensitive to changing circumstances and the parameters used to enumerate those assumptions. “Nonsense on Stilts” was the famous term coined by Peter Self (yes Will Self’s father) to describe the process.
Interesting to have your contribution Geoff.
I am sure there are plenty of articles written by professionals, economists, engineers, statisticians etc who will analyse the HS2 project and all come up with different interpretations of this huge infrastructure project and its potential benefits for the economy but it must be very difficult to be accurate with any assumption with a project that has such a long time span and is subject to the vagaries of economic circumstances?
Sherwood
07-07-2023, 15:51
Interesting to have your contribution Geoff.
I am sure there are plenty of articles written by professionals, economists, engineers, statisticians etc who will analyse the HS2 project and all come up with different interpretations of this huge infrastructure project and its potential benefits for the economy but it must be very difficult to be accurate with any assumption with a project that has such a long time span and is subject to the vagaries of economic circumstances?
With a process as dependent on subjective value judgements there cannot ever be a single best estimate of net project worth. In many circumstances, economic appraisals may be influenced by those wanting to justify a project. This can be done by under-estimating costs and over-estimating benefits or a combination of the two. However, a much better job could be made than that done for HS2.
Alarmingly, project risks are rarely fully elaborated or modelled. This is not because the tools do not exist, and there are many (easy to use) tools available which convert simple Excel spreadsheets into Monte Carlo simulation models. Rather than entering a single value for a key parameter, say inflation or interest rates, Monte Carlo methods allow for each parameter to be entered as a range or probability distribution. The Monte Carlo model then calculates the most probable outcomes by repeatedly running the spreadsheet (say 1,000 or 5,000) times to show a range of potential outcomes. Rather than producing a single point estimate of cost benefit ratio, Monte Carlo techniques reveal a distribution of potential outcomes. This risk assessment would allow for estimation of, say, the probability that the cost benefit ratio would fall below a particular value (i.e. unity).
The cost benefit ratio for the Jubilee Line extension was less than unity, meaning that costs were likely to exceed projected benefits. It was approved anyway on the assumption of additional unquantified benefits. A fudge? I couldn't possibly comment. :hmm:
archiesdad
11-07-2023, 12:42
I don’t think HS2 will even reach me in 20 years.
Lawrence001
11-07-2023, 13:03
I don’t think HS2 will even reach me in 20 years.But then you are in John O' Groats [emoji23]
But then you are in John O' Groats [emoji23]
or jan de groot:eyebrows:
More great news about HS2.....????
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/30/hs2-officially-unachievable-red-rating-problems-london-birmingham
More great news about HS2.....????
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/30/hs2-officially-unachievable-red-rating-problems-london-birmingham
Won't stop it though too late for that. On the plus side the additional nine years added to the completion date will help spread the cost.
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 13:01
Won't stop it though too late for that. On the plus side the additional nine years added to the completion date will help spread the cost.
Only if costs are more or less constant. Unlikely given high costs of borrowing and rising costs of construction materials.
Only if costs are more or less constant. Unlikely given high costs of borrowing and rising costs of construction materials.
Yes I suppose the cost could - I mean will - keep going up. But they've started so they'll finish. Eventually.
Leave the thing half done and abandoned and you start to look like one of those Commie loser countries...
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 13:42
Most other countries put us to shame when it comes to infrastructure. Just look at how quickly China constructed new hospitals during COVID. More recently, look how quickly the US repaired the collapsed freeway section.
Part of the problem is NIMBYism and local opposition to new builds. More fundamental is the lack of vision on the part of politicians. Most economists would acknowledge the growth benefits of infrastructure development, especially during economic downturns. Look at the transformational effects of infrastructure in 1930s America under FDR.
Totally agree re the economic benefits but it has to be taken into account that UK is a much smaller country. There are fair few infrastructure projects on the go. Crossrail for example was pretty ambitious, and there's been a number of new bridge projects completed in past few years.
It's not remotely on the same scale as what they are doing in China or what they did in the USA from the 1930s to 1960s, but this isn't China or America.
I don't blame people for not wanting a motorway or a railway running along the back of their house where there's fields or woodland now.
I'm not much for the whole 'Making a personal sacrifice for the greater good' thing, so I'm not going to criticise anyone for being a Nimby.
using public money to help the rich get richer while putting all the mess on someone elses doorstep, and we are fed up of it. like onshore windfarms in england... no no not here.. our green and pleasent land etc. dump it in wales or scotland etc :eyebrows:
There's no windmills at all round here even though it's very rare that the wind is not blowing quite aggressively.
I think the Scottish ones are all a result of the National-Socialist government there and not because we don't want them here. Although we don't of course.
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 14:08
Scale is not really an issue. Yes China and the USA are bigger countries with larger populations but that just means that they have greater infrastructure needs. The problem is the national mindset. Most of our sewage infrastructure is over a century old and it shows. My area is vulnerable to surface flooding due to the limited capacity of the drains.
There are strict controls over building zones, with adequate protection for green belt and protected environmental areas.
A visionary leader should be looking at building whole new towns outside of London and the South East.
its not a national socialist govt tbh.. far from it.. you need to dig much deeper to see its just a gov of good intentions, often gone wrong, run by people who have little ability, and who have also gone wrong. it was supposed to be government of the people, by the people, for the people, but as is case if you have poor politicians, you see it become government of our people, by our people, for us, and hopefully we shall not perish from the earth” .
Not sure the 'National Mindset' is opposed to sorting out the drains, but in terms of covering green belt with new towns I agree it is totally opposed and I don't blame it.
Personally I'd rather they built on all the brownfield sites. I know that's not often financially viable as everyone with money to buy wants to live in the countryside, or at least 'semi-rural', but if everyone did there'd be no countryside and everyone loses.
'Visionary Leaders' scare the crap out of me. There's something about both words I don't like. I'd settle for competent, cost effective administration. But we won't get that either.
its not a national socialist govt tbh.. far from it.. you need to dig much deeper to see its just a gov of good intentions, often gone wrong, run by people who have little ability, and who have also gone wrong. it was supposed to be government of the people, by the people, for the people, but as is case if you have poor politicians, you see it become government of our people, by our people, for us, and hopefully we shall not perish from the earth” .
Well, they are self-professed nationalists and socialists so I'd say if the cap fits...it's funny more than anything really.
What was the road to hell paved with again?
Pigmy Pony
30-07-2023, 15:08
Scale is not really an issue. Yes China and the USA are bigger countries with larger populations but that just means that they have greater infrastructure needs. The problem is the national mindset. Most of our sewage infrastructure is over a century old and it shows. My area is vulnerable to surface flooding due to the limited capacity of the drains.
There are strict controls over building zones, with adequate protection for green belt and protected environmental areas.
A visionary leader should be looking at building whole new towns outside of London and the South East.
I doubt the national mindset would be opposed to having improved sewers. i don't ever recall seeing protesters taking to the streets with banners saying "Leave our sewers alone" or "Floods are Good".
On the subject of floods - the last thing we need is to be building more towns, thereby further reducing natural drainage.
Thousands of acres of former Green Belt land north of Preston is now covered in new-builds. Your average buyer then finds that because all these houses are crammed together there isn't room for his car, his wife's, and his two teenage kids' cars. and there's no room in the garage because it's filled with mountain bikes and golf clubs. So he has half of his bit of natural drainage (the front garden) paved over. Then one morning he wakes to find his downstairs under six inches of water. Of course he blames it on climate change, which can't be his fault because he just bought a Tesla.
I doubt the national mindset would be opposed to having improved sewers. i don't ever recall seeing protesters taking to the streets with banners saying "Leave our sewers alone" or "Floods are Good".
On the subject of floods - the last thing we need is to be building more towns, thereby further reducing natural drainage.
Thousands of acres of former Green Belt land north of Preston is now covered in new-builds. Your average buyer then finds that because all these houses are crammed together there isn't room for his car, his wife's, and his two teenage kids' cars. and there's no room in the garage because it's filled with mountain bikes and golf clubs. So he has half of his bit of natural drainage (the front garden) paved over. Then one morning he wakes to find his downstairs under six inches of water. Of course he blames it on climate change, which can't be his fault because he just bought a Tesla.
problems up here flood wise was mostly the building on low lie flood plain. the new owners complain and as they are richer get flood defences pushing the flood water to places that never flooded before but where poorer folk live.
Pigmy Pony
30-07-2023, 15:25
problems up here flood wise was mostly the building on low lie flood plain. the new owners complain and as they are richer get flood defences pushing the flood water to places that never flooded before but where poorer folk live.
Historically, progress has always shit on the poorer classes. Like how towns and cities used to be planned so that the wealthy lived on the west side of town, while the poorer (and factories) were on the east side. Prevailing winds you see.
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 16:12
I really have to smile when I read about green belt development and the alleged lack of land for building purposes. The truth is that only 1.4% of the UK’s land area is being used for housing. To put that into context, this is less than the amount of extra land revealed on our coast when the tide is out.
As for green belt designated land this was around 12.6% of the land area of England in 2021 but has since risen to over 14%. The problem is not about encroachment into the green belt, but the tendency to build in unsuitable and already overcrowded areas. I don't know of many people advocating for building on the green belt but I am aware of many who oppose perfectly reasonable developments in their backyards. Summing built on land and green belt amounts to 15.5% (or less than one sixth) of available land. Looked at another way, a 20% increase in the amount of land for building would be equivalent to less than 0.3% of total UK land stock.
Another factor is the type of houses we are (barely) building and where we build them. The UK has some of the meanest size houses in the developed world with often low standards of construction and insulation. I’ve worked in about 30 countries and visited another 50 or so, and I am constantly struck on my return to the UK at how poor and pokey our housing stock is. Whatever your view is on immigration it is a recipe for disaster to expect a rapidly increasing population to thrive with a highly limited and increasingly unaffordable housing stock. Don’t get me started on types of construction. A major health episode has left me severely disabled to the extent that I cannot safely navigate stairs anymore. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a suitable 2 to 3 bedroom bungalow for what my nearly new 4 to 5 bedroom detached house would raise. New, well insulated, bungalows are as rare as hen’s teeth, as are smaller houses for first time buyers. Here, I am not talking about tiny rooms, but more open plan developments with just one or two bedrooms.
I’m not sure how we got into socialist/communist states, but the Victorians (hardly socialists) invested hugely in our infrastructure, albeit in search of private returns. Economic pressures today see developers stockpiling building plots and concentrating on new builds in the south east and already overcrowded areas.
Finally, I return to mindset. I don't know quite when it happened let alone why, but there is such a lack of ambition in the UK these days. Talk of a high skill, high wage economy is total bullshit and it seems to me that we are in a race to the bottom. My parents were first generation immigrants to the UK and my father died when I was ten. Despite modest circumstances I was able to get a full grant to go to university, and even secure several full fellowships to do postgraduate studies. That would not be possible today.. Our view of investment needs a radical rethink to cover not just physical infrastructure but social capital too.
Here endeth the rant!
can you not fit a stair lift or even a lift to circumvent stairs? ive got one ; if i didnt i would not be able to live here. my house has a disabled bathroom too and a few other things. it all helps a bit
you got a grant to go to University because you were from modest means not despite them. Grants were means-tested, over a certain income you got nothing.
Tuition fees were paid.
I'd be in favour of paying tuition fees for people doing useful degrees - science, engineering, medicine, that sort of thing. The can get a student loan to live on plus work in a bar or something.
We didn't really 'get on' to communist states. I merely mentioned them as a reason why HS2 cannot be abandoned now, abandoned grand infrastructure projects in the eastern bloc being a trademark of the failure of communism.
Pigmy Pony
30-07-2023, 16:42
If you can't find a 2/3 bed bungalow for the price of a 4/5 bed detached house down your way, it may be time to consider living elsewhere. how about Bulwell/ i worked there a few years ago, and I imagine house prices would be pretty keen. Though I did think the place was a bit of a shithole.
Or get a lift installed as Grant suggested - I saw one advertised on TV recently. Looked great, and could easily be fitted into a 4/5 bed house.
modern 2 bed detached bungalow in Stoke - £136K
Ofc can understand you might not want to live in Stoke, but it has it's plus points.
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 18:04
modern 2 bed detached bungalow in Stoke - £136K
Ofc can understand you might not want to live in Stoke, but it has it's plus points.
I was on the faculty at Keele for many years but never really warmed to the area.
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 18:04
At the risk of drifting further off topic, thanks for your suggestions about housing. The truth is that I never really intended to stay long in my current location. I had come back to the UK at short notice because I contracted severe recurrent malaria running a large health project in Malawi for the German Development Bank. My shipping container was following close behind me and I needed to find somewhere to move into at short notice. I started off looking at new properties in Leeds which is where I lived before upping sticks. I then progressively started southwards on the M1 stopping off at multiple locations to inspect new developments which were conveniently signposted. I ended up in a nice village on the edge of Sherwood Forest. I moved in 14 days after making the offer.
The property I moved into was much bigger than I needed (4 bedrooms and an office room, with a detached garage and off road parking for 4 vehicles) but it was almost ready to move into and the developer accepted a cheeky offer as a cash buyer. It was also somewhere that I knew would sell easily when I was ready to go back overseas. Unfortunately, fate intervened and effectively curtailed my international travels. The house design precludes a lift but a stair lift would be possible. However, I don’t really want to spend a lot on disabled conversions which would make the house harder to sell.
I haven’t given up on a bungalow and have multiple alerts registered. On location I am very flexible but I want a new/newish property with low running and maintenance costs. One of my cousins is an architect (now living in Sweden) and he has offered to design me a bungalow using prefab wooden frames. There is a very good fabricator in Sheffield. I haven’t ruled it out but would need to find a good plot.
stair lifts really are very unobtrusive and easy to install/uninstall without showing much if anything tbh. unless you have a complex stair...i was surprised how simple they are yet how much they up your life.
Bungalows have definitely become more popular recently. We accidentally bought one thinking it was a house as it has 3 bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs but in fact it was actually called a "cottage bungalow" on the plans. It was built in 1965 without any insulation at all so this has been my constant issue with the house. Trying to retro fit insulation in a dormer bungalow with a huge roof is a nightmare.
If you get the chance of possibly having your architect cousin to design and build you a bungalow would be great. I am sure he would be able to ensure it has superb insulation and hopefully low cost heating? Some of the prefab stuff is amazing now, I was thinking of Huf houses in particular but then you do have to have deep pockets for this type of building.
Sherwood
30-07-2023, 19:28
Bungalows have definitely become more popular recently. We accidentally bought one thinking it was a house as it has 3 bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs but in fact it was actually called a "cottage bungalow" on the plans. It was built in 1965 without any insulation at all so this has been my constant issue with the house. Trying to retro fit insulation in a dormer bungalow with a huge roof is a nightmare.
If you get the chance of possibly having your architect cousin to design and build you a bungalow would be great. I am sure he would be able to ensure it has superb insulation and hopefully low cost heating? Some of the prefab stuff is amazing now, I was thinking of Huf houses in particular but then you do have to have deep pockets for this type of building.
My cousin lives in a place called Ahus in southern Sweden not far from the coast. He designed his own house, and subsequently, many other houses in his area. It gets pretty cold in winter there but the level of insulation with these factory built frames is pretty amazing. The few bungalows I have seen in my price range have had shocking insulation ratings (mainly D and E). My current house is very well insulated (B IIRC.).
BTW. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that golf courses take up 2% of land in the UK. That is half as much again as the amount of land currently occupied by housing. Convert a mere one quarter of the 2,000 golf courses into building plots and that would increase housing land by over one third, Problem solved!
problem with these land area calculations is they take into account Scotland which is mostly wild and Wales which has large empty areas, but they're not practical for housing people.
If we just take England the built up area is over ten percent. You may say that's still not much but I'm not keen on that increasing and neither are most people.
I was on the faculty at Keele for many years but never really warmed to the area.
I took my degree there and likewise I did not expect to, nor was I especially keen on the idea of living in Stoke, but things happen and I got to like it.
It's cheap, it's quiet and the indigenous personnel are down to earth and friendly. On the whole.
Pigmy Pony
31-07-2023, 07:55
I took my degree there and likewise I did not expect to, nor was I especially keen on the idea of living in Stoke, but things happen and I got to like it.
It's cheap, it's quiet and the indigenous personnel are down to earth and friendly. On the whole.
Absolutely. Nowt wrong with Stoke. Just need some better weather.
Sherwood
31-07-2023, 08:44
I took my degree there and likewise I did not expect to, nor was I especially keen on the idea of living in Stoke, but things happen and I got to like it.
It's cheap, it's quiet and the indigenous personnel are down to earth and friendly. On the whole.
I liked the oatcakes!
I liked the oatcakes!
Yes, you can't fault the oatcakes, I can't really imagine how I managed without them now.
Absolutely. Nowt wrong with Stoke. Just need some better weather.
The weather is shocking, unless you like almost constant rain and wind. Plus a lot of fog in the winter. Foothills of the Pennines, what can you do?
It's not so much worse than the rest of The North that it's a deal-breaker though.
Sherwood
31-07-2023, 18:55
If money were no object I would be in somewhere in the Yorkshire Dales or the Peak District. Other than that somewhere on the coast that was not too touristy. Unfortunately, many others seem to have the same idea so prices are prohibitive. Still a chance with the Lottery tickets though!
If money were no object I'd be in the Bahamas or somewhere similar.
Or maybe would move back to Liverpool and buy a big Victorian house in the private park, overlooking the river. Always fancied one of those when I was a nipper. Looking at 2 million for that though, lottery win not really enough.
Yorkshire Dales would be too much like 'Last Of The Summer Wine'.
Parts of the Peak District are lovely but the winters are bad.
Pigmy Pony
31-07-2023, 21:54
I would move to Dorset. Because that's what you do if you're old and have money.
Summat like this. Might need a Stannah fitted though
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/WJ4E84/sandbanks-dorset-england-uk-exculsive-homes-overlook-the-entrance-to-poole-harbour-on-this-small-peninsula-WJ4E84.jpg
way to close to water for me
way to close to water for me
Yes, far too vulnerable to attack by the Sea Devils and other water-related monsters.
Yes, far too vulnerable to attack by the Sea Devils and other water-related monsters.Was thinking hi tide storms and in future sea levels...but yes monsters too
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/18/hs2-manchester-andy-burnham-rishi-sunak-birmingham
Not sure if HS2 is going to be quite what was promised.
Apparently it may even be slower between London and Birmingham than the current service!:eek:
Lawrence001
18-09-2023, 19:14
It was initially sold as making it faster to get from London to the north to encourage business moving out of London. At some point it became about increasing capacity as it turned out it's going to be slower.
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It was initially sold as making it faster to get from London to the north to encourage business moving out of London. At some point it became about increasing capacity as it turned out it's going to be slower.
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And way more expensive?
The Channel Tunnel cost about twice the estimate IIRC.
Not sure what the record is for over-running is.
Pigmy Pony
18-09-2023, 20:54
I think the Millennium Dome worked out a bit dearer than intended, for what looks basically to be a giant big top. But then it wasn't expected to stay up very long, and yet there it still is, 20-odd years later. Probably outlive most new-build houses.
Lawrence001
18-09-2023, 20:59
The Channel Tunnel cost about twice the estimate IIRC.
Not sure what the record is for over-running is.Is that all? Probably one of the more successful cost overruns of public sector infrastructure.
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The Black Adder
19-09-2023, 08:19
I think it will just go bust shortly after opening, if it does ever open.
It will then be broken up and sold off and the rolling stock will be divided and badged up with Arriva or similar. The tracks will be joined to other routes, bus seats and cheap rattle bogies will eventually be phased in and your... 'back in the room'.
It's a waste of time. Since it's conception, the world has changed. But it maddens me that in regards to train travel, one thing a lot of people need and find comfort in is the ticket office. But that looks like it's about to vanish. Pathetic government cuts whilst they all quaff champers down the club, wot! And get bonkers salaries plus bonuses, plus perks. It all stinks.
It's a future cross party 'didn't we do well', 'we created lots of jobs with HS2' statement for blurting at the dispatch box for decades to come.
Cynical? Maybe... but this seems to be the way of anything the government plans. It's all kick-backs and fat cats. They just don't have the passion or attention to keep things going as a national concern as niether party have the talent for business except for their own private business, wealth and legacy. With every new generation who didn't know or care about things before, when 'real' life hits them the government simply hits the rinse and repeat button on the old campaign machine. Said generation follow like sheep and off we go again.
I think it will just go bust shortly after opening, if it does ever open.
It will then be broken up and sold off and the rolling stock will be divided and badged up with Arriva or similar. The tracks will be joined to other routes, bus seats and cheap rattle bogies will eventually be phased in and your... 'back in the room'.
It's a waste of time. Since it's conception, the world has changed. But it maddens me that in regards to train travel, one thing a lot of people need and find comfort in is the ticket office. But that looks like it's about to vanish. Pathetic government cuts whilst they all quaff champers down the club, wot! And get bonkers salaries plus bonuses, plus perks. It all stinks.
It's a future cross party 'didn't we do well', 'we created lots of jobs with HS2' statement for blurting at the dispatch box for decades to come.
Cynical? Maybe... but this seems to be the way of anything the government plans. It's all kick-backs and fat cats. They just don't have the passion or attention to keep things going as a national concern as niether party have the talent for business except for their own private business, wealth and legacy. With every new generation who didn't know or care about things before, when 'real' life hits them the government simply hits the rinse and repeat button on the old campaign machine. Said generation follow like sheep and off we go again.
Very well considered Josie and my thoughts precisely. There are so many projects and policies that have been announced to hook the voters only to be cancelled, delayed or kicked into the long grass.
The Channel Tunnel cost about twice the estimate IIRC.
Not sure what the record is for over-running is.
I would think this isn’t the worst case, but it shocked me:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-65701068
Lawrence001
19-09-2023, 13:28
Now that's more like it. Look at defence contracts too, radios, tanks, APCs etc
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All of this would be very worrying if the budget were halfway realistic in the first place.
If one looks at the literature on what is termed in the trade ‘optimism bias’ there is quite a lot of analysis about the gaming that causes these apparent cost overruns. I know from writing business cases in the past that they are largely written to secure funding, not to estimate accurately the real cost of procuring the asset.
The pitch is made to fit the available budget, not what a sensible person would actually budget for, safe in the knowledge that, once a project is kicked off, it will be enormously embarrassing to scrap it, so more funds will flow, at the cost of a ritual beating from the Treasury.
Scope change, and Ministers changing minds, once the contract is let are the other big problems.
Even worse, though, the thing that really matters is the whole life cost and that is rarely understood, let alone budgeted for properly.
Incidentally, it seems to be one of things being missed with the aerated concrete issue in schools: the certified lifespan was about 25-30 years (and that’s assuming a proper maintenance regime). So most, if not all, of these buildings should have been replaced by now, anyway.
When HS2 was announced I was expecting something like the Japanese bullet train linking the major cities of the UK and at least going as far as Manchester and it would have been great if it had gone as far as Scotland. Japans cities are all well connected via the bullet train and travel is both fast, punctual and very high quality.
What we are going to get remains to be seen but the image in my head is a huge ticket price that is difficult to get hold of because no ticket offices and the machines in the stations will be out of order. You get onto a train that is 10 minutes late if you are lucky and it has not been cancelled completely. The train will be full of other peoples rubbish and not spotlessly clean. Half way through a trolley comes past you with crap overpriced snack food and you arrive at your destination later than you thought because of leaves, point failures, missing drivers, snow, rain or intermittent electrical faults.
The place your arrive at is London but not as you know it but some fictional station on the outskirts that has been cobbled together because the link to Euston was too expensive. Your journey then takes even longer to actually get to London than it would by the usual standard train and you are so pissed off you say never again.
dave2010
20-09-2023, 08:02
The place your arrive at is London but not as you know it but some fictional station on the outskirts that has been cobbled together because the link to Euston was too expensive. Your journey then takes even longer to actually get to London than it would by the usual standard train and you are so pissed off you say never again.However "London" is often not the place you really want to go to - unless you really want to spend time in a railway terminus. After getting off a fairly high speed train, it'll then often take at least another hour or two to get to one's preferred actual destination.
This was an issue with HS1. Even though the original service to Waterloo from (say) Paris was a bit slower than the services now to the Kings Cross/St Pancras terminal, for anyone living south of the Thames, the additional hassle of trekking up to the new terminal probably added an extra hour or so on to the whole journey - and was a complete faff traversing the local tube or bus network.
HS2 is/was undoubtedly a vanity project, and engineers liked it because it gave them something interesting to do. It would be good if there could be high speed trains to Scotland, but the HS2 project is struggling to make it to Liverpool, Leeds or Manchester. As usual it is a London centric project, which does very little for people outside the south east. In the meantime the people in the zone of the "Northern Powerhouse" have to make do with really pathetic trains - infrequent, not fast enough, and trains which have hardly enough carriages to carry even a small local football team and a handful of supporters.
Trains in the north are a disgrace.
Joined up thinking about transport in the UK is just not something which politicians do.
It will be lucky if it makes it to Birmingham!:lol:
HS2 a bronze service...mmm. Can you imagine government ministers looking at the horrifically escalating figures and trying to work out just how much more they can scrap before eventually abandoning the project?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/nils-pratley-on-finance/2023/sep/22/gold-plated-hs2-looks-dead-so-lets-run-the-numbers-on-a-bronze-plated-design
HS2 a bronze service...mmm. Can you imagine government ministers looking at the horrifically escalating figures and trying to work out just how much more they can scrap before eventually abandoning the project?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/nils-pratley-on-finance/2023/sep/22/gold-plated-hs2-looks-dead-so-lets-run-the-numbers-on-a-bronze-plated-design
they could cut the trains and just have the line...;)
Or build the track, but not the stations. :lol:
Or build the track, but not the stations. :lol:
hell dont electrify the damn thing either
Todays news article on HS2 does not make good reading.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66895425
I would have thought at £396 million per mile it was great value.:doh:
Pigmy Pony
23-09-2023, 06:33
Electric trains aren't they? A bit dangerous I know, but they could save a bit of money if they bypass the meter ;)
Pigmy Pony
23-09-2023, 06:38
I would have thought at £396 million per mile it was great value.:doh:
Is that what it's coming out as? Be cheaper to sell all the rails for scrap and make it into another road. And make it a toll road so the users can pay towards the cost, like with the M6 at Birmingham.
I read that was the cost on another news site. As we have all been made aware, the costs are escalating rapidly and for many reasons. This will be the most expensive railway in the world but in defence of HS2 the costs are more than they would be for other countries because of considerations for the environment, land and property which means lots for expensive tunnels.
None the less if costs are out of control and the estimated completion date is so far into the future I would say things have the potential to get a lot worse.
I think initial cost was 37 Billion in 2013 and now it 100 billion.
The way I see it we already pay the money in and if they weren't squandering it on this they'd be squandering it on something else.
When has a government ever said 'Hey we took this money off you in tax but turns out we don't need it, so we're giving it you back.'
If i was going to modify it I'd cancel the elctric trains, instead you turn up at the station and get assigned one of these:
https://i.ibb.co/VJggdFx/railroad-hand-car-APKP77.jpg (https://ibb.co/Kb22YtD)
Maybe with a bit of awning over it to keep off the worst of the weather. It's cheap, it's green, you get some exercise. Sidings every ten mile or so where you can pull over and get a cup of tea and a pie.
I mean we live in a crazy world where people ride pushbikes just for fun so this is just the next logical step.
yeah youd get 5 lazy buggers just sitting half a mile up track waiting on some bugger with an important meeting to go to. he then pushes them all;)
yeah youd get 5 lazy buggers just sitting half a mile up track waiting on some bugger with an important meeting to go to. he then pushes them all;)
yeah I thought about that - there's a hydraulic arm underneath, if you stop moving for more than 15 seconds it tips the whole shebang off the tracks and you have to walk home. (Assuming you weren't seriously injured in the process, but if you were that's your own fault anyway).
Plus anyone with an important meeting to go to is going to drive there anyway. You wouldn't take a chance on public transport, way too unreliable.
Anytime I go on trains 90% of the passengers are pensioners on a jolly, poxy students, or fat women and their irritating, spoilt children. None of them can possibly have anything important scheduled.
yeah I thought about that - there's a hydraulic arm underneath, if you stop moving for more than 15 seconds it tips the whole shebang off the tracks and you have to walk home. (Assuming you weren't seriously injured in the process, but if you were that's your own fault anyway).
a bit old fashioned that.. use an explosive drone:D
Not looking good for Manchester?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/23/rishi-sunak-pushes-to-axe-northern-hs2-rail-line-ahead-of-tory-conference
Lawrence001
24-09-2023, 13:10
Not looking good for Manchester?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/23/rishi-sunak-pushes-to-axe-northern-hs2-rail-line-ahead-of-tory-conferenceNot really surprising if you think about how far north Manchester is from London. Levelling up and reducing the north south divide is one thing but there is a limit. I'm think they'll end up terminating it at the Watford Gap with a park and ride.
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If they use Old Oak Common instead of Euston station, travel from Birmingham to London will take longer than the current train!:doh:
What has happened to this country.?
Firebottle
24-09-2023, 16:15
It's screwed. No government thinks long term for the good of the country, only short term for the good of themselves. Prove me wrong.
'Levelling up and reducing the north south divide'
Don't make me laugh! As soon as I heard the term 'levelling up' I though utter BS. As for a levelling up minister that's just a drain on the coffers.
This week will be an interesting one regarding "Englands" premier infrastructure project!:lol:
Obviously this topic is now the major headlines at the moment as everyone waits with baited breath about whether Manchester link will be cut but I think folk should focus on what is left which is a high speed train that starts and ends at two places nobody has ever heard of. OK the press mention London and Birmingham but these are huge places and as I mentioned Old Oak Common is not exactly that close to Euston.
Now looking a bit closer I see the Birmingham station is at Curzon Street ... a 15 minute walk from New Street. That will be great if you are trying to catch a train somewhere else and its raining and you have little time between connections. A lot of folk travel through Birmingham onwards to other destinations so this is not great.
Someone mentioned HS2 was like an escalator to nowhere!:)
Obviously this topic is now the major headlines at the moment as everyone waits with baited breath about whether Manchester link will be cut but I think folk should focus on what is left which is a high speed train that starts and ends at two places nobody has ever heard of. OK the press mention London and Birmingham but these are huge places and as I mentioned Old Oak Common is not exactly that close to Euston.
Now looking a bit closer I see the Birmingham station is at Curzon Street ... a 15 minute walk from New Street. That will be great if you are trying to catch a train somewhere else and its raining and you have little time between connections. A lot of folk travel through Birmingham onwards to other destinations so this is not great.
Someone mentioned HS2 was like an escalator to nowhere!:)
a stairway to heaven that starts in an odd spot and doesnt really make heaven eh?
https://s35422.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/9.27.21_Masterpiece-1024x683-1.jpg
So there we have it. No HS2 to Manchester or Euston but the government are going to fill all the pot holes in.
Watch and weep.
Pigmy Pony
04-10-2023, 16:17
So there we have it. No HS2 to Manchester or Euston but the government are going to fill all the pot holes in.
Watch and weep.
"Due to recent cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off".
"Due to recent cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off".
:lol:
so it will be a rail line that goes to Birmingham, where no-one would go unless they really have to, from some god-forsaken NE suburb of London?
Really what is the point? Why not cut the losses and scrap it altogether instead of throwing good money after bad? Even when it's done it won't be running half the time due to the drivers being on strike.
hifi_dave
04-10-2023, 18:22
Apparently there are already two lines from London to Birmingham with 5 trains per hour. What is the point of HS2 at all ?
Apparently there are already two lines from London to Birmingham with 5 trains per hour. What is the point of HS2 at all ?
They're rammed full of poxy students and other people with nothing better to do with their time than 'travel.' So it's needed for extra capacity.
Patrick Dixon
05-10-2023, 08:47
Apparently there are already two lines from London to Birmingham with 5 trains per hour. What is the point of HS2 at all ?
The point of HS2 was never about Birmingham to London, it was about connecting Leeds, Manchester to Birmingham and then on to London ... because everything has to be connected to London.
So now we just have the pointless bit, at great expense, with none of the benefits to the North.
Since I'm near Bristol, I have no stake in any of it, but it is depressing just how 'short-sighted' this country is.
Sherwood
11-10-2023, 00:17
Scale is not really an issue. Yes China and the USA are bigger countries with larger populations but that just means that they have greater infrastructure needs. The problem is the national mindset. Most of our sewage infrastructure is over a century old and it shows. My area is vulnerable to surface flooding due to the limited capacity of the drains.
There are strict controls over building zones, with adequate protection for green belt and protected environmental areas.
A visionary leader should be looking at building whole new towns outside of London and the South East.
You are welcome Keir!
So rather than cancel trains left right and centre all year finally the government cancelled a whole train line - HS2 between Manchester and Brum.
But what is to become of what is left of the existing rail network ?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/23/new-plans-for-hs2-money-will-bring-higher-fares-and-congestion-for-decades
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