View Full Version : The Marco-boy main system, as of August 2020
If I were to go down the passive route, I'd go LDR in favour of any Quad preamp (purely based on internet research). The Quad 66 is intriguing, although my interest is really due to my fondness for the partnering "Control Panel".
The 66 isn't something I considered, but intriguing, especially now I've seen pictures of it and said partnering 'control panel' - shexy! :D
I totally agree about the LDR, and it sounds great with the 306, but if I'm going down the road of getting a dedicated preamp for the 306, I'd also like it to be Quad. Doesn't need to be a vintage one, just as long as it sounds good!
So is the 66 rated reasonably for SQ, or certainly better than the 33?
You're not wrong, those IC's are a proper bargain. I think I'll pick myself up a pair when I eventually get the Garrard spinning again. My current DIY efforts were built with Mogami 2549 / MS Audio, what were you using before the HDX?
I was using some Sommer Carbokab with MS Audio silver plugs, which were great, but the HDX1s are notably better in all areas. Just great cables that don't get in the way of the music, or display any kind of overt sonic signature, unlike many expensive so-called 'high-end' varieties!;)
Marco.
Okay my two cents:
The 33 is a waste of time. You'd have to mod it anyway if you want to use a DAC or CD player into it as they'll overload the line inputs otherwise.
I've compared a 34 to a Croft Micro Basic and I can't imagine anyone would prefer the 34. Looks good and good build quality but like the 33 it's veiled. I don't know how you'd begin to sort that out as my guess it is just how the design is. If you really want one to match the 306 the best mod would be to rip all the gubbins out of it and turn it into a stepped attenuator passive.
Churz for that, and yes I agree. However, see my last post. If a preamp's coming into the equation, it's gotta be a Quad! So have you heard a 66 or know anything about it?:)
Marco.
Churz for that, and yes I agree. However, see my last post. If a preamp's coming into the equation, it's gotta be a Quad! So have you heard a 66 or know anything about it?:)
Marco.
No, never heard one. I always wanted the 66 system though, from when it first came out. Still got the copy of HFR with Noel Keywood's review from 1990.
There was someone selling one here a while back for a reasonable price and I would have gone for it but it was collection only from London. The remote 'console' and the tilt control are still super cool - orange display too which is pure class. If you must have a QUAD pre that would be the one.
walpurgis
21-10-2020, 20:10
I agree with Martin. The 33 won't even match the 306 in dimensions or looks/colour anyway.
A fun project might be to grab this last remaining Quad 34 clone case from China and get somebody to bung a decent stepped attenuator in it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-All-Aluminum-Chassis-UK-QUAD34-Preamplifier-Case-Diy-Amplifier-Audio-Box/273947993194?hash=item3fc892a46a:g:vTcAAOSwbWhdPvI 9
It should match the 306 for looks and dimensions (check though) and you'd keep everybody guessing as to what it really is. The switch holes would need blanking. not difficult.
Yeah, that would be fun lol, but LDRs aside, as they work differently, I'm not really a fan of passives, as to my ears they invariably sound 'soft' and lacking in drive and dynamics, compared with the best active designs, valve or SS, so that wouldn't really be a solution.
No, If I do doing down this particular road I think it'll be a 66, even though it won't match the 306. It's the sound that matters most!:)
Marco.
Anyone...?? Come on, surely some of you Quad fans must've modified a 33 preamp!:ner:
So, don't be shy, tell me what difference it made:D
Marco.
No, I never modded mine - I just keep it in my Quad archive as an 'objet d'art' (I love the styling of the Quad Series 3 electronics).
I know little of the 66 preamp, though I have heard one. I can see the attraction of the remote control 'palette', and obviously it has an input appropriate for CD. But it comes from a period in Quad's history where they were having teething problems with the matching CDP and seemed to have 'lost their way and direction', so I would approach it with caution.
Yeah, that would be fun lol, but LDRs aside, as they work differently, I'm not really a fan of passives, as to my ears they invariably sound 'soft' and lacking in drive and dynamics, compared with the best active designs, valve or SS, so that wouldn't really be a solution.
No, If I do doing down this particular road I think it'll be a 66, even though it won't match the 306. It's the sound that matters most!:)
Marco.
You could have an active zero gain pre like the DCB1 built into the case - no lack of drive or softness with one of those. In any case those issues with passives are due to compatibility with the power amp, not the passive itself. Plenty of integrated amps use passive pre-amp stages but because they are properly matched to the power stage there's no issue.
walpurgis
22-10-2020, 08:11
You could have an active zero gain pre like the DCB1 built into the case - no lack of drive or softness with one of those. In any case those issues with passives are due to compatibility with the power amp, not the passive itself. Plenty of integrated amps use passive pre-amp stages but because they are properly matched to the power stage there's no issue.
Yes, I've experienced the sound lacking in substance when using a passive with some power amps, but not with the 306 or any of my other current amps. Even the cheapo Little Bear unit sounds just fine as does my home made ALPS item.
No, I never modded mine - I just keep it in my Quad archive as an 'objet d'art' (I love the styling of the Quad Series 3 electronics).
I know little of the 66 preamp, though I have heard one. I can see the attraction of the remote control 'palette', and obviously it has an input appropriate for CD. But it comes from a period in Quad's history where they were having teething problems with the matching CDP and seemed to have 'lost their way and direction', so I would approach it with caution.
Noted, Barry. I'll certainly bear that in mind. I also love the look of the early quad preamps, which is why it's so annoying they don't sound as good as they look!:doh:
Marco.
mate has the 33/303 combo with tuner.. it is in nice nick and sounds ok.. a bit polite for my liking tho
You could have an active zero gain pre like the DCB1 built into the case - no lack of drive or softness with one of those.
Interesting idea, and one that could work. This is far from an urgent project though (just floating some ideas about, really), so I won't be rushing into anything. As usual, when I've decided to go ahead, extensive research will be undertaken, and the processing of as much relevant info as possible will be carried out before a choice is made.
In any case those issues with passives are due to compatibility with the power amp, not the passive itself. Plenty of integrated amps use passive pre-amp stages but because they are properly matched to the power stage there's no issue.
Yes, so they say, and in certain circumstances that may be true.
However, I've used umpteen different passives in my system with the Copper amp, which is even more sensitive than a Quad 306, and high-efficiency speakers (95db Tannoys), and where on paper a passive should thrive, yet (aside from LDRs), when used the soundstage collapses and they *always* sound soft/veiled/'padded out'/lacking in 'drive' and dynamics (even receiving a 2v digital signal), *in comparison* [that bit is crucial] with the best active designs.
Therefore, given the above and the type of system I've tried passives in, I'm struggling to see what the 'compatibility issues' would be?:scratch:
Don't get me wrong, the sound isn't dreadful or anything like that, with passives, just not up to the high standards I'm used to from top-notch active designs. You have to remember the benchmark I've got as an active preamp...
My modded Croft, in today's market, would likely retail for around £8-10k - it's a very capable, highly-optimised design, which allows serious insight into recordings, and a truly wide-open window onto the music, so that's what any passives are up against.
Interesting though, that LDRs, some of them despite not sounding anywhere near as good as the Croft, don't suffer from a lack of said 'drive', and consequently don't sound soft, so there must be something in their design that negates this.
They're powered by the mains supply, so perhaps that's part of it?
Marco.
Yes, I've experienced the sound lacking in substance when using a passive with some power amps, but not with the 306 or any of my other current amps. Even the cheapo Little Bear unit sounds just fine as does my home made ALPS item.
Sure, Geoff, as have I, and trust me, even with the 306, an active design still sounds better. I always have high hopes for passives, as the theory as to why they have the potential to be better makes perfect sense, but for me never bears out in practice.
With passives, I can be hoodwinked into thinking I've got a good sound going on, then I swap them for the Croft, and it's game over!:D
However, let me be crystal clear: I'm NOT saying that passives, as a genre, are soft and veiled sounding - far from it - but as ever, it depends on what you're used to, what your benchmark is, in terms of an active - and so where the 'bar is set', sonically, in that respect.
Many people won't have heard what a high-end active preamp can do; that's one where the bulk of the money has been spent 'under the hood', so it's understandable why they'd be perfectly happy with a passive that's at least as good (or better) than the active designs they've heard, at a price point they can afford.
And btw, I certainly haven't spent £8-10k on the Croft. It cost me £2.5k when I bought it, and I've spend around another £1.5k modding it, and from experience I know that it would ably compete at that price level in today's market, as the money's been spent where it matters, hence why I've made that comparison:)
Marco.
walpurgis
22-10-2020, 09:26
Is the Croft unity gain or does it raise levels?
As the signal from sources is complete there's obviously nothing missing, making me a bit suspicious of active pre-amps that sound 'better'. I'm not saying they don't, but they can only do so by adding something to or otherwise altering the original unadulterated signal. Presumably changing it from what it should be.
In terms of your question about 'raising levels', Geoff, I don't know. That would be one for Glenn Croft to answer, someone else who knows, or perhaps Anthony.
I know what you mean, and in some circumstances that may be true, but I'm experienced enough to know that's not what's happening with the Croft (or rather why I prefer how it sounds, compared with passives); I believe it's more fundamental than that.
ALL forms of audio equipment, passive or active, add (or substract) something from the audio signal, which deviates from true accuracy, such is the nature of the beast, as despite what some folk think, NOTHING is truly 'transparent', so of course the Croft, or indeed any passive design, isn't exempt from that, but there's something else going on, I believe electrically, which I'm sure there'd be a technical explanation for, not just differing levels of distortion or coloration.
Marco.
Many people won't have heard what a high-end active preamp can do; that's one where the bulk of the money has been spent 'under the hood', so it's understandable why they'd be perfectly happy with a passive that's at least as good (or better) than the active designs they've heard, at a price point they can afford.
And btw, I certainly haven't spent £8-10k on the Croft. It cost me £2.5k when I bought it, and I've spend around another £1.5k modding it, and from experience I know that it would ably compete at that price level in today's market, as the money's been spent where it matters, hence why I've made that comparison:)
Marco.
Surprised that you would link price with quality, that's a bit 'What Hi*Fi'.
The very best pre-amp possible, even in a super-bling case, shouldn't retail for more than three grand. A ten grand pre-amp is a complete waste of money, not a benchmark.
Lol - then you haven't understood properly what I've said. To an extent I agree, but sometimes (I admit not often) very expensive pieces of audio equipment are expensive for the RIGHT reasons (where the money has been spent where it matters most), and IME in that respect, with amplifiers, there's more to be had beyond the £3k mark.
Take Anthony's Soul Monoblock amps, for example, which (and he can correct me if I'm wrong here) retail for around £20K. You wouldn't believe the engineering and know-how that's gone into those, including many aspects of their unique design - and that COSTS - for all the RIGHT reasons!
Same as the Copper amp, at a lower level. There's a reason why it costs £5k to build one from scratch, and also a reason why it couldn't be done to the same standards for £3k. High-end [that's 'high-end' for the RIGHT reason) preamps are the same, the best ones which are arguably harder to build, in terms of preserving the integrity of the all-important music signal.
So.... Yes, often price is no guarantee of sonic excellence, but in the hands of the RIGHT designer, who truly knows their stuff, throwing enough cash in their direction can often reap some very genuine rewards!:)
Marco.
Beobloke
22-10-2020, 11:51
The very best pre-amp possible, even in a super-bling case, shouldn't retail for more than three grand. A ten grand pre-amp is a complete waste of money, not a benchmark.
The very best preamp I've ever heard retailed for £4,995 when new, and that was 33 years ago. Mind you, it does have a reasonable feature count...
http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-CX-10000.html
:D
WOW - some serious engineering in there!:eek:
Wonder what one would cost today - if indeed anyone were even able to build one? £30k?
Marco.
Lol - then you haven't understood properly what I've said. To an extent I agree, but sometimes (I admit not often) very expensive pieces of audio equipment are expensive for the RIGHT reasons (where the money has been spent where it matters most), and IME in that respect, with amplifiers, there's more to be had beyond the £3k mark.
Take Anthony's Soul Monoblock amps, for example, which (and he can correct me if I'm wrong here) retail for around £20K. You wouldn't believe the engineering and know-how that's gone into those, including many aspects of their unique design - and that COSTS - for all the RIGHT reasons!
Same as the Copper amp, at a lower level. There's a reason why it costs £5k to build one from scratch, and also a reason why it couldn't be done to the same standards for £3k. High-end [that's 'high-end' for the RIGHT reason) preamps are the same, the best ones which are arguably harder to build, in terms of preserving the integrity of the all-important music signal.
So.... Yes, often price is no guarantee of sonic excellence, but in the hands of the RIGHT designer, who truly knows their stuff, throwing enough cash in their direction can often reap some very genuine rewards!:)
Marco.
They are power amps though not pre-amps, big difference in terms of what is required.
The very best preamp I've ever heard retailed for £4,995 when new, and that was 33 years ago. Mind you, it does have a reasonable feature count...
http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-CX-10000.html
:D
Not just a pre-amp though is it? You've got all the parametric EQ and stuff in there too. I want one. :)
The point is, *genuine quality* costs, and unlike vulgar, bling frippery, when properly applied, it REWARDS you, sonically.
I'm currently modifying my Lentek MC head amp, which cost £50 from ebay (a mint example), and which sounds superb with any of my DL-103s, through the valve MM stage in the Croft, and have just spent £115 with Hi-Fi Collective, on Charcroft Z-Foil and AudioNote Tantalum resistors, which Anthony will be fitting for me, and which based on previous experience in that area, I'm confident will transform an already superb sounding device.
Now, how much would a commercial manufacturer, selling such a device, have to charge for something like that, if £115 had been spent on resistors alone, regardless of the other components, casing, connectors, etc - what would the likely retail price be, including VAT and all other costs, in order to make a viable profit? £800?
Yet, I've only paid £165 (£50 initially, and the rest for the mods), but it won't reflect the potential sound quality. *That* is not only SPPV in action, but spending money on where it matters most, thus reaping the rewards - exactly my mantra with hi-fi!
:exactly:
Marco.
They are power amps though not pre-amps, big difference in terms of what is required.
I disagree. It might seem 'easy' to build a preamp, but I can tell you it's not easy to build a truly GREAT one [and that pisses all over most others]!:nono:
See here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/croft/croft.html
And as you know, Glenn's not the type for 'unnecessary foo'!! It's all in the power supplies;)
Marco.
Beobloke
22-10-2020, 12:22
WOW - some serious engineering in there!:eek:
Wonder what one would cost today - if indeed anyone were even able to build one? £30k?
Marco.
I suppose the closest modern equivalent is the new Yamaha C-5000 which is £6499 but has none of the multichannel stuff, parametric EQ or any digital inputs. It is stunningly good, though.
https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/c-5000/index.html
As an aside, CX-10000s generally go for £2-3000 these days. Mine cost £495 but was not working. It took some fairly extensive repairs and no less than 108 new capacitors to bring it back to life!
I disagree. It might seem 'easy' to build a preamp, but I can tell you it's not easy to build a truly GREAT one [and that pisses all over most others]!:nono:
See here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/croft/croft.html
And as you know, Glenn's not the type for 'unnecessary foo'!! It's all in the power supplies;)
Marco.
The problem here is that if you produce the world's best pre-amp it is going to be expensive, not arguing that. It will be expensive enough to be out of reach of anyone on a budget. So the target market is the high end customer. And because of the nonsense propagated by Six Moons and similar sites and magazines if you price it too cheaply it won't sell.
Because of this the punter for it associates performance with cost. So you don't price it at £3K and make a decent profit. You price it at ten grand so your target market can be confident that it's good.
Yes, but that only applies to 'punters' who either lack intelligence/discernment and/or experience, and/or who have more money than sense, and if the latter applies, erroneously *automatically* equate cost with quality.
It doesn't apply to 'punters' who don't exhibit those traits, and who have the money, if necessary, to spend on 'the best', based on their judicious judgement of such, and also what it takes to achieve it, but who also refuse to buy grossly overpriced 'badge-fi'!;)
[Count me in].
In audio, too many important mistakes are made either by 'punters' with the required money, but who won't spend enough [counterproductive 'tight-waddery syndrome'] to get the genuine 'best' (not necessarily most expensive) gear, and also those who have plenty of money, just buying overpriced bling.
As ever, the most correct decisions, and subsequently the most joy, is usually found in a happy halfway house between both! And that's the world I live in:)
Marco.
Anyway, in terms of my aforementioned resistor experiments, here's an interesting review of the AN non-magnetic Tants [although the sliver versions are a bit too 'bonkers' for use in the Lentek], and which reflects my experience on using them (and Z-Folis) before in the same application, but which also translates as effectively into other areas:
http://sw1xad.co.uk/audio-note-2w-silver-copper-tantalum-resistor-review/
Interesting that Black Gate capacitors are mentioned, as my Audiocom-modded Sony DAC is full of them, and I fully agree on their sonic characteristics!:cool:
Marco.
Cheers, mate. That was my intention, to show some nice clear shots in good light, illustrating its correct fitment.
It's piss-easy to do, when you know how and have practiced a few times, but as with anything else, rewards you with *meticulous* attention to detail, in terms of its set up, and also optimising the installation of the cartridge, ensuring that azimuth and VTA are SPOT ON:)
The Houdini is a genius invention from Arthur, and ably transforms the performance of every cartridge attached. I think that I'll paint the nylon screws black though, to make them less obvious!:D
Marco.
Any of these do the job?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M2-5-x-10mm-Nylon-Phillips-Cross-Pan-Head-Machine-Screws-Black-50-PCS/361347688450?hash=item5422002802:g:YxoAAOSwL7lekbb P
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 17:17
You could have an active zero gain pre like the DCB1 built into the case - no lack of drive or softness with one of those. In any case those issues with passives are due to compatibility with the power amp, not the passive itself. Plenty of integrated amps use passive pre-amp stages but because they are properly matched to the power stage there's no issue.
That's a good call, I'd forgotten about those.
The Lash Up looks like it's coming on nicely Martin! The Oppo 101 is an inspired choice, were you on the search for one or was it serendipitous?
That's a good call, I'd forgotten about those.
The Lash Up looks like it's coming on nicely Martin! The Oppo 101 is an inspired choice, were you on the search for one or was it serendipitous?
Serendipitous - although I'm not that keen on it as a standalone player hence the DAC. It's all a bit of a disaster at the moment tbh. Can't get to the bottom of what's wrong. Got some Tannoy Ardens coming imminently so I'm waiting for them to arrive then have a re-assessment.
Any of these do the job?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M2-5-x-10mm-Nylon-Phillips-Cross-Pan-Head-Machine-Screws-Black-50-PCS/361347688450?hash=item5422002802:g:YxoAAOSwL7lekbb P
Yes, brilliant - thanks!:)
Now, can you find a pack of black M-25s in different lengths? That's your challenge, lol!;)
Marco.
Got some Tannoy Ardens coming imminently so I'm waiting for them to arrive then have a re-assessment.
OMG - don't tell me the Shaunster has finally finished them!!!:eek::eek::wowzer:
I'd given up hope...
Marco.
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 17:35
Serendipitous - although I'm not that keen on it as a standalone player hence the DAC. It's all a bit of a disaster at the moment tbh. Can't get to the bottom of what's wrong. Got some Tannoy Ardens coming imminently so I'm waiting for them to arrive then have a re-assessment.
I was aware of the Tannoys, (and the delay) but I didn't know you were expecting them imminently, I bet you can't wait! I've read (many time now) the DAC is easily bettered, but it's surely hard to beat the Oppo as a transport at anything near the same price?
Yes, brilliant - thanks!:)
Now, can you find a pack of black M25s in different lengths? That's your challenge, lol!;)
Marco.
Just get the longest length you need and chop to suit.
Exactly what is this 'long term project' Marco? Is it use with your Ditton 15s? Or is it a 'backup' for the Copper amp/Tannoy Lockwoods?
I was aware of the Tannoys, (and the delay) but I didn't know you were expecting them imminently, I bet you can't wait! I've read (many time now) the DAC is easily bettered, but it's surely hard to beat the Oppo as a transport at anything near the same price?
Just get the longest length you need and chop to suit.
Darren,
You'd be SHOCKED at how good the Audiolab 6000CDT transport sounds into a Dac.
I use mine for playing CDs, for reference I used to used a modded Oppo 203 over i2s for CDs, now I use the Audiolab.
Custom tool for the Job,
Massive bang for buck at £379.
OMG - don't tell me the Shaunster has finally finished them!!!:eek::eek::wowzer:
I'd given up hope...
Marco.
No but he has said I'll get them before Christmas.
Just get the longest length you need and chop to suit.
Indeed... Although it'd still be nice not to have to do that and have them finished in the right size:)
Thought you might've commented on my Lentek mods... The aim is to get this one even better than the one I sold you!;)
Yes, Martin should be excited about getting his Tannoys, as he'll now for the first time ever, own some PROPA speakers!! Eh, Marty-boy?:ner::D;)
Marco.
No but he has said I'll get them before Christmas.
Lol - are you sure he meant 2020?:D
Marco.
Exactly what is this 'long term project' Marco? Is it use with your Ditton 15s? Or is it a 'backup' for the Copper amp/Tannoy Lockwoods?
Both, Barry (depending on how the mood takes me), as I have the facility to listen to both sets of speakers with the same sources and electronics in different rooms!;)
More than likely though, the 'Quads' will partner the Celestions downstairs, but will 'live' upstairs in the hi-fi/music room.
Marco.
I was aware of the Tannoys, (and the delay) but I didn't know you were expecting them imminently, I bet you can't wait! I've read (many time now) the DAC is easily bettered, but it's surely hard to beat the Oppo as a transport at anything near the same price?
.
I don't know about the subjective reviews of the DAC but it is one of the best measuring DACs you can buy. The Oppo sounds no different as a transport to a Pioneer DVD player I got for nothing.
All a big mystery really, but I am thinking that the speakers might have a fault, caps or ferrofluid maybe. Hence waiting for the Tannoys.
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 17:56
Darren,
You'd be SHOCKED at how good the Audiolab 6000CDT transport sounds into a Dac.
I use mine for playing CDs, for reference I used to used a modded Oppo 203 over i2s for CDs, now I use the Audiolab.
Massive bang for buck at £379.
Well coming from you (the compulsive Oppo modder :)) I'll take that as scripture. Why then do Oppo's still command such a high price on the second hand market :scratch:
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 18:01
Indeed... Although it'd still be nice not to have to do that and have them finished in the right size:)
Thought you might've commented on my Lentek mods... The aim is to get this one even better than the one I sold you!;)
Yes, Martin should be excited about getting his Tannoys, as he'll now for the first time ever, own some PROPA speakers!! Eh, Marty-boy?:ner::D;)
Marco.
I was going to, but what I was going to say was: "Why did you buy another, the one you sold me has been sat idle for years you could have had it on long term loan!", your more than welcome to borrow it for a bake off. I'm not really sold on the Lentek though, I like what it does, but batteries are a pain in the arse it's a bit noisy.
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 18:04
I don't know about the subjective reviews of the DAC but it is one of the best measuring DACs you can buy. The Oppo sounds no different as a transport to a Pioneer DVD player I got for nothing.
All a big mystery really, but I am thinking that the speakers might have a fault, caps or ferrofluid maybe. Hence waiting for the Tannoys.
Isn't the 101 essentially a stripped down 105?
Isn't the 101 essentially a stripped down 105?
I don't know. Its bass is a bit weak and it can get a bit shouty. It doesn't have dedicated power supplies for each section so I suspect that's the cause of that. The external DAC solves those issues though.
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 18:14
I don't know. Its bass is a bit weak and it can get a bit shouty. It doesn't have dedicated power supplies for each section so I suspect that's the cause of that. The external DAC solves those issues though.
I think we've got our wires crossed. What DAC are you referring to?
I think we've got our wires crossed. What DAC are you referring to?
Soncoz SGD1
I was going to, but what I was going to say was: "Why did you buy another, the one you sold me has been sat idle for years you could have had it on long term loan!", your more than welcome to borrow it for a bake off. I'm not really sold on the Lentek though, I like what it does, but batteries are a pain in the arse it's a bit noisy.
Lol - didn't know that you weren't using it, mate. It would certainly be interesting comparing them. If you could drop it off when you're passing (we don't need to make contact, just toot your horn and leave it in the wooden box, for milk bottles) by the front door, that would be great.
You can borrow the Denon SUT if you like?:)
Marco.
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 18:24
Lol - didn't know that you weren't using it, mate. It would certainly be interesting comparing them. If you could drop it off when you're passing (we don't need to make contact, just toot your horn and leave it in the wooden box, for milk bottles) by the front door, that would be great.
You can borrow the Denon SUT if you like?:)
Marco.
I'll dig it out. Thanks for the offer, but the Garrards still boxed up and likely to be for some time.
DarrenHW
22-10-2020, 18:26
Soncoz SGD1
I see! I thought you were referring to the DAC in the Oppo.
I'll dig it out. Thanks for the offer, but the Garrards still boxed up and likely to be for some time.
No worries, matey. Yeah, so if you're passing you know what to do:)
Marco.
Well coming from you (the compulsive Oppo modder :)) I'll take that as scripture. Why then do Oppo's still command such a high price on the second hand market :scratch:
Fair point!
Few reasons I'd wager...
Generalising:
* There's nothing better for video playback (imo)
* SACD/ DVD-A player as good as you'll get through it's analogue outs.
* It's a digital "Swiss Army knife"
* Reputation precedes it (especially on the part of the Cnut sellers...)
For my own situation
After embracing Streaming in a big way (And had a successful Business building Digital boxes) The Oppo was always my "Sayonara" to disc playback?
Knew I still wanted to play CDs, but Me being Me I wanted to make sure it was as good as it could be, hence all the Mods.
The video stuff was a category in itself and Oppo was 2nd to none and still is imo.
Like Eric Clapton playing guitar, it just does its thing without effort or need for recognition - its work speaks for itself.
All my modding Shenanigan's made a great product something really special, but being Me got itchy feet and wondered if my Digital was "good enough".
Knew my Dac was up to snuff so looked to the playback end and thought about the Oppo, particularly in it's Role of an "Roon endpoint" into my Dac.
Compared a few quite "spendy" alternatives, and whilst some were a wee bit better, the Oppo was good enough not to go down the road of diminishing returns and spend a lot for a little return.
Got a new Turntable a while back and the majority of my musical enjoyment was in spinning vinyl and my streaming through the Oppo, but CD's, not so much.
"My last disc spinner"
Bluray movies were "adequate" (as they say :)) and no wish to look any further, but playing a CD was uninspiring compared to records and streaming.
Gave up on CD, still have a few hundred but had them on ripped to file, so why bother with a disc?
BUT:
Kept hearing about the Audiolab Transport, it never went away and I got curious.
Bought one and Fcuk Me what I'd been reading was correct.
Cd as a format is interesting again, and I'm interacting with my old CD's, rediscovering why I liked them "back in the Day" with exactly the same "warm fuzzy" fervour I have playing my 30 Yr old copies of Led Zeppelin on vinyl on my new turntable.
If that isn't what the Hobby is about I don't know what is.
All about the music and the memories and enjoyment of course, but CD's as a format are exciting again.
Its awesome.
Good post, Gaz - shows how you've learned from your experiences and used that info to your benefit (and that of your system). I also think it's no 'happy accident' that you've got into CD again after getting a decent transport, which for me is the key to really enjoying what CD has to offer, and a properly designed dedicated transport makes a big difference:)
It's not just about the DAC, and 'any old transport' will do, off of a DVD player or whatever. For me, that's bollox and simply doesn't tally with my experience.
Unlike you, I've never 'fallen out of love' with CDs, despite embracing streaming (although not to anywhere near as high a standard as you), and of course have never stopped enjoying vinyl, and that's because I've been using the same (top notch) Sony CDP and DAC for the last 11 years, which really shows what the format can do.
So continue enjoying those sliver discs mate, along with everything else. You've got a nicely assembled system going on now, by paying close attention to the details and making properly informed choices, and long may that continue!:cool:
Marco.
Beobloke
23-10-2020, 08:03
Marco, out of interest, why are you using nylon bolts on your cartridge? Is this a recommendation to do with the Houdini?
Hi Adam,
Yes, it's because of how the Houdini is designed. The bolts/screws have to be cut to fit (reduced in size) in order only to penetrate the Houdini far enough to secure the cartridge, but not so far as to upset its suspension.
Plus it also reduces mass, should that be a consideration:)
Marco.
Light Dependant Resistor
23-10-2020, 10:01
Interesting idea, and one that could work. This is far from an urgent project though (just floating some ideas about, really), so I won't be rushing into anything. As usual, when I've decided to go ahead, extensive research will be undertaken, and the processing of as much relevant info as possible will be carried out before a choice is made.
Yes, so they say, and in certain circumstances that may be true.
However, I've used umpteen different passives in my system with the Copper amp, which is even more sensitive than a Quad 306, and high-efficiency speakers (95db Tannoys), and where on paper a passive should thrive, yet (aside from LDRs), when used the soundstage collapses and they *always* sound soft/veiled/'padded out'/lacking in 'drive' and dynamics (even receiving a 2v digital signal), *in comparison* [that bit is crucial] with the best active designs.
Therefore, given the above and the type of system I've tried passives in, I'm struggling to see what the 'compatibility issues' would be?:scratch:
Don't get me wrong, the sound isn't dreadful or anything like that, with passives, just not up to the high standards I'm used to from top-notch active designs. You have to remember the benchmark I've got as an active preamp...
My modded Croft, in today's market, would likely retail for around £8-10k - it's a very capable, highly-optimised design, which allows serious insight into recordings, and a truly wide-open window onto the music, so that's what any passives are up against.
Interesting though, that LDRs, some of them despite not sounding anywhere near as good as the Croft, don't suffer from a lack of said 'drive', and consequently don't sound soft, so there must be something in their design that negates this.
They're powered by the mains supply, so perhaps that's part of it?
Marco.
Hi Marco
LDR's are capable when properly powered to present music exactly as it was recorded. They neither add or subtract from presenting every bit of detail, dynamics that the recording has preserved.
Properly powering them has been my passion and interest for over 13 years. The type of LDR firstly is the encapsulated type NSL32SR3 . The SR3 has the best properties for audio as well as capability of highest resistance range.
The circuit formed on the signal side is a passive L pad, however with a distinct difference, to simply being just variable resistance ( achieved by more or less light intensity ). The difference is the enormous hold or grip which LDR's have on the entire grounding of all audio equipment, that it attaches to. The benefit is a black silence in a unbalanced audio system, that even balanced systems cannot achieve. To make this occur the LDR anodes needs to receive ideally 8 volts or more and have its cathodes not directly grounding, rather far better forming active current drive for the circuitry.
If we think of the most outstanding amplifier circuits that preserve bandwidth such as the cascode and common gate, and we apply those forms to what is ostensibly a DC circuit, we find we suddenly are confronted with added audio properties
occurring on the signal side. Some might say DC circuitry does not need high bandwidth as it is form, is the exact opposite, however if we read manuals such as Designing with Field Effect Transistors 2nd Edition reference is indeed made to using cascodes in DC circuitry. I regularly inform audio forums who muster all sorts of opposition to LDR's, that they simply relay how well or how poorly they are powered, power them well if we speak in positive terms and that is what you hear.
Comparison then to other passives that do not have this grounding grip as we are calling it , has LDR's in a area all of their own. Other passives use ideally or represent approximately 15 k of resistance at mid volume in usually equal halves as a potentiometer, variations are those with log curves meaning there is usually a taper in the volume curve . The benefit with LDR's is they emphatically do NOT have to follow potentiometer set curves and forced restrictions.
We are thus free with LDR's to have total control over where the shunt pair becomes active vs the series pair. Another is that we can have total silence at zero volume, simply by arranging a voltage reference pushing appropriately against the series cathodes. Which begins to ask, what is ideal resistance of the potentiometer used in LDR's and what is its best positioning. In my circuits I can proudly say there are NO resistors on the main board - none at all ! Rather I have solved all need of resistors, with semiconductors. Most of the semiconductors used therefore are very close internally to exactly half the potentiometer resistance value, so the potentiometer used for attenuation is just seen as yet another semiconductor resistance value and in effect semi disappears as a device. The potentiometer is placed between the series cathodes volume UP, and shunt cathodes volume down. When measured we find some really good impedance characteristics for matching to source components and to power amps. Typically 1k3 on the shunt pair at half volume and 2k to the series pair. If we compare this to a stepped attenuator or a potentiometer passive it is losing badly in terms of connecting the source component and power amp, as it has much higher resistance in order to function. LDR's therefore connect not only all your grounding paths with grip, but also connect to the source component and power amp in near perfect relationship.
I hope that helps to answer some of the mysteries. Please let me know if I can help further.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that, much appreciated. I think this part kind of suns up what you're saying, especially the emboldened text, in reference to what I was describing earlier:
Rather I have solved all need of resistors, with semiconductors. Most of the semiconductors used therefore are very close internally to exactly half the potentiometer resistance value, so the potentiometer used for attenuation is just seen as yet another semiconductor resistance value and in effect semi disappears as a device. The potentiometer is placed between the series cathodes volume UP, and shunt cathodes volume down. When measured we find some really good impedance characteristics for matching to source components and to power amps. Typically 1k3 on the shunt pair at half volume and 2k to the series pair. If we compare this to a stepped attenuator or a potentiometer passive it is losing badly in terms of connecting the source component and power amp, as it has much higher resistance in order to function. LDR's therefore connect not only all your grounding paths with grip, but also connect to the source component and power amp in near perfect relationship.
Do you think that the higher resistance you've outlined, together with the lack of "grounding paths with grip", explain why with the passives I've used to date in my system (despite it on paper being 'ideal' for incorporating such a device), music reproduced sounds 'subdued' and lacks 'life' [best way I can describe it] compared with when done by a good active preamp or LDR?
For me, what you say makes sense and confirms my listening experiences in that respect. I'm convinced that a) I'm not imagining the effect, and therefore it's real, and b) that it isn't due to the artifice of an active preamp (in this case my Croft) making the sound appear as superficially 'more exciting', and therefore creating a false effect.
To my ears, it's definitely the other way round, and in fact the passive device robbing the sound, and subsequently the music, of elements that should *actually* exist!:)
Marco.
Light Dependant Resistor
23-10-2020, 10:58
Yes that nails it, passives other than LDR's, alter the ideal source to power amp relationship by using too much resistance, just when less is needed. In effect as you say, robbing us of the life in music that is actually there in abundance.
The fact that LDR's solve other passives failings, in their unique way, connecting us so well with the music, is why I have been so excited about them, all these years.
Yes, your current Stereo Coffee is the best LDR I've heard, and which no doubt will become even better when fitted with the latest boards!:)
It certainly pisses all over any other 'passive preamp' I've heard.
Marco.
Btw, just an addendum to the 'which preamp to partner the 306 with' conundrum.... After having carried out some research, I've decided to go for a late (grey-version) 44, and have it modded/upgraded by Redhill or similar - the full monty, with off-board PSU!
So if anyone sees or knows of any for sale [only minty examples would be of interest), let me know!:cool:
Marco.
I use these voltage regulator tubes in my Croft preamp, and I've been wanting this one for a while, as it's a special (and rare) military spec version, from the 1950s, of the 85A2:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/aAXwHJ.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/fP8usS.jpg
I've rolled these VR tubes before, and the best ones always make a nice difference, so will be interesting hearing what this one does!:)
For the Croft's line stage, I've also just bought a rather nice matched Pair of 1940s Raytheon 6SL7GTs in gray glass:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/ylyt4m.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/EFKxQm.jpg
Looking forward to hearing those, too!:cool:
Marco.
I haven't used one of these in the Croft for years, but had very fond memories of it, so decided to take the plunge and treat myself to one, which as you can see has been fully tested and is conforming to spec, courtesy of AnthonyTD of Tube Distinctions:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/YYuq8A.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/wXF5MV.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/1GJdq0.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/aA1q5L.jpg
It'll be interesting comparing it with my current favourite ECC83/12AX7 type, which is my rather rare and superb sounding La Radiotechnique, of a similar vintage, as shown here where I bought it from (read the description): https://reverb.com/item/4913765-la-radiotechnique-12ax7-ecc83-like-mullard-amperex-special-quality-amplitrex-tested-1967-vintage
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/BzKR5g.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/UTZ0Lh.jpg
It'll be interesting seeing if the Mullard can better it!:cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
01-11-2020, 23:09
I use these voltage regulator tubes in my Croft preamp, and I've been wanting this one for a while, as it's a special (and rare) military spec version, from the 1950s, of the 85A2:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/aAXwHJ.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/fP8usS.jpg
I've rolled these VR tubes before, and the best ones always make a nice difference, so will be interesting hearing what this one does!:)
For the Croft's line stage, I've also just bought a rather nice matched Pair of 1940s Raytheon 6SL7GTs in gray glass:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/ylyt4m.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/EFKxQm.jpg
Looking forward to hearing those, too!:cool:
Marco.
Tried those exact 6sl7gt they are ok but there are better to be had
Lol, churz. I'll let you know what I think mate, as results vary wildly with tubes, depending on the kit used and also the system:)
Marco.
The Black Adder
02-11-2020, 16:17
Lol, churz. I'll let you know what I think mate, as results vary wildly with tubes, depending on the kit used and also the system:)
Marco.I'm also looking to roll the ECC88s. The Mullard are always a great choice in our pimped up pre amps, Marco [emoji16][emoji106]
I've also used NOS Teslas too... They were excellent.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Lol, cheers, Jo. Did you mean ECC83s, though? There are no ECC88s in my Croft, and the M8137 is a premium version of an ECC83. It'll have to go some though to better the vintage RTC 12AX7S, I'm currently using. However, I'm confident it will, or run it very close. It certainly should at £175!:eek:
I just wanted to introduce some 'Mullardy goodness' into the mix, as I haven't had any in the Croft for a while, so hopefully the M8137/M8098 combo will prove fruitful! Both are due to arrive tomorrow, so all will be revealed shortly!:cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
03-11-2020, 09:17
Lol, cheers, Jo. Did you mean ECC83s, though? There are no ECC88s in my Croft, and the M8137 is a premium version of an ECC83. It'll have to go some though to better the vintage RTC 12AX7S, I'm currently using. However, I'm confident it will, or run it very close. It certainly should at £175!:eek:
I just wanted to introduce some 'Mullardy goodness' into the mix, as I haven't had any in the Croft for a while, so hopefully the M8137/M8098 combo will prove fruitful! Both are due to arrive tomorrow, so all will be revealed shortly!:cool:
Marco.Agh... 88s? Nah, 83s for defo... Sorry bout that.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2020, 19:12
Interesting to see what your doing with valve rolling. I've got the Tunsgram 85A2, I've tried the GEC CV449 and Phillips CV449. The Tunsgram sounds so the best so far, I've not even seen that Mullard before so I might have a go with one. I didn't realise the Mullard 8137's were going for £175 a piece :eek: I've got 6 in a stash, 3 of which are in my 834p clone. The valves are worth more than the clone. :wowzer: FWIW I think the 8137 are the best ECC83 variant I have ever heard.
Agh... 88s? Nah, 83s for defo... Sorry bout that.
Lol - no worries. What kind of valves (makes) have you got in your Croft - do you remember, when was the last time you were in there?:D
Marco.
Interesting to see what your doing with valve rolling. I've got the Tunsgram 85A2, I've tried the GEC CV449 and Phillips CV449. The Tunsgram sounds so the best so far, I've not even seen that Mullard before so I might have a go with one. I didn't realise the Mullard 8137's were going for £175 a piece :eek: I've got 6 in a stash, 3 of which are in my 834p clone. The valves are worth more than the clone. :wowzer: FWIW I think the 8137 are the best ECC83 variant I have ever heard.
Yeah, there are military spec versions of pretty much every Mullard valve, as back in the day many of them were used in military applications, and then later in professional civilian ones, such as the telecommunications industry, both of which where reliability and longevity was paramount.
This meant that the build quality needed to be top-notch, and subsequently the best materials were used for constructing every aspect of the valves, and which is precisely what improves their performance, from an audio perspective [usually resulting in them being less microphonic, for starters].
It's also why they're worth paying a premium for, as not only are they likely to sound better than other valves of the same type, but will last maybe 100 times longer! Simply because in most audio applications, compared with where they would've been originally designed to operate, they're not really being 'taxed'.
Therefore, valves such as this, along with the likes of original GECs, etc, are generally always worth the investment!:cool:
Marco.
Just scored a nice matched pair of these vintage tubes. 'Coin Base' RCAs are often frowned upon by audiophiles, but I actually like using them (and vintage RCAs in general), in key areas of the Croft's phono stage.
They have a nicely open, punchy and dynamic sound, and not in any way thin-toned [as is often their criticism] when used in the right circuit, and which doesn't need the rather 'plump' bass enhancement of 'phat' sounding tubes. When tube rolling, and subsequently optimising the sound, it's all about successfully combining 'flavours'!:)
Anyway, here are the little 'tall-bottled' bastards...:D
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/tF3nGn.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/5oFP5k.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/MbsIGD.jpg
Nicely constructed... Look at those nice fat shiny pins!
Oh, and as an aside, this is a rather interesting site, detailing the history of many different valves, but this bit is involving 6SL7s and their history, which folks here using them should read: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2016/05/tube-of-month-6sl7.html
:cool:
Marco.
Ok, so now that the Lentek's been modded, and sounding STUNNING [more on that later], it's time to start on my valve headphone amp! Firstly, just to remind folks what the internals look like again:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jO1bUl.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/7WfpD5.jpg
So... To begin with, I've sourced some quality NOS Melz tubes (including some as spares), to replace the, no doubt, modern Chinese one that'll be in it above: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N16B-V-6021-Matched-Selected-Pair-MELZ-NEW-NOS-OTK-Strong-Made-in-1960s/173500199357?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Secondly, I've just bought a rather nice NOS 50K Alps Black Beauty pot, originally intended for use in a McIntosh amp, which (with some jiggery pokery to the PCB, moving some caps around, etc, which Anthony will be doing) will replace the existing cheap pot:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/NJ9mx8.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/B6CHin.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/ZFmEY9.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/NS8Fpy.jpg
I was originally going to fit a stepped attenuator, but decided to go down a different route for this project.
I've always liked the Alps BBs, which have a very detailed and musical sound, perhaps not quite as 'upfront' or transparent as the likes of the DACT stepped attenuator in the Croft, but it will compliment the sonic signature of this headphone amp nicely - and NOS Alps BBs (highly-regarded but long discontinued) are pretty rare these days!
Anyway, that's stage 1 and 2 of the mods, which I'll analyse separately first before starting on any alterations to caps or resistors, with the aim in the end of creating a 'giant killing' headphone amp, which majors on the highest SPPV!:cool:
Marco.
Just a little update on the Mullard M8098 voltage regulator and M8137 combo... Well, oh lordy it's stunning!:eek::wow:
It's undoubtedly the best combination of those valves I've ever heard in the Croft. I've no idea why I stopped using an M8137 (as a premium ECC83 equivalent) and started messing around with other makes of valves, as it is quite simply THE BEST.
As good as the La Radiotechnique 12AX7 is I was using before, and it's a superb sounding tube, the M8137 takes things to another level.
Quite simply, it does the classic 'Mullard thing', which is a producing a lovely natural, open, detailed and lucid mid and top end, such that it often makes valves of the same type from other manufacturers sound rather false and tonally 'forced', (zingy/fuzzy) in comparison - and somewhat like using a tone control, where certain aspects of the frequency response were artificially boosted or muted.
The M8137, in comparison, sounds very even-handed and 'linear', top to bottom throughout the frequency range, and in terms of the low frequencies, they're firm and full but not in any way overblown. Detail retrieval has also gone up a notch, with subtle nuances popping out in musical mixes that previously were glossed over. In conclusion, it's pretty obvious why these valves are so sonically sought after!
However, a special mention must go to the M098, which is head and shoulders the best version of the 85A2 I've heard. This one is vintage 1950s 'golden era' valves at its best. For me there's a unique musicality to valves from this era (or earlier), especially military spec ones such as this.
When I received this valve today from Langrex, it came in a lovely original box, carefully wrapped in its original packaging, totally untouched and NOS, along even with its original guarantee certificate, which had clearly never been opened! The whole thing 'felt' special before I'd even installed it and listened to it. However, the most special thing about it is the sound....
Rather uncannily, it seems to have lowered the Croft's 'operating noise-floor', widened the soundstage and also held music in more of a vice-like grip, such that bass is tighter and more extended, with heightened rhythmic alacrity - almost as if a bigger power supply had been fitted - it's just scarily good and hugely addictive!:eek:
So... If you've got a Croft preamp (or other amp) that uses this type of voltage regulator, and can find an M8098 voltage regulator valve, then my advice would be snap it up, tout suite, and prepare to hear it like never before.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
06-11-2020, 11:31
Thats good news regarding to M8098 I managed to get one some time ago but never tried it in the Preamp. Looks like I'll be unhooking the Croft again!
No worries, Andy. I think you'll like it:)
Btw, those 1940s-vintage Raytheon grey-glass 6SL7GTs have arrived - remember the ones you said were ok but nothing special? Well, in my Croft these specific ones are sounding SUPERB, and among the best I've heard! Very wide-open, detailed and dynamic, and create a vast 'walk around' soundstage - hugely impressed!:cool:
Are you sure that the ones you had were NOS military-spec 1940s vintage, and not later examples? IME, the very early 6SL7s, produced during the 40s, for military applications, invariably sound best, and considerably better than later examples.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
10-11-2020, 08:34
I've had a look at your photo and I notice that one of your valves appears to be National Union and the other Raytheon. Are they the same? It could be that you have two VT229's but re badged under two differing names? They do look identical, you'll need to check the internal construction and make date. Yes I have tested those valves, they are down the list of the one's I've tested, in at number 7. I've tried 12 different types now and you'll notice that the upper spots are dominated by special military variants with the 5691, so far, being the best I've heard. I've included below what I've trialled. There some notable exemptions such as Mullard ECC35's and the Melz 5 dot versions, they will appear at some point on the horizon so at the moment I stalk the USA for different 6sl7's.
1. RCA 5691 (Red Base) 9.75/10
2. Bendix 5691 (Red Base) 9.75/10
3. Tung Sol 6S7GT (Black Bottle) 9.6/10
4. Tung Sol 6SL7GT (Orange base) 9.5/10
5. Mullard 6SL7GT (Black base) 9.25/10
6. Ken Rad 6SL7GT (Black Base) VT229 9.25/10
7. Raytheon 6SL79 VT229 (Black bottle) 9.1/10
8. Tung Sol 6SL7GT VT229 (Black bottle) 9.1/10
9. General Electric GSL7GT (Black base 1970's) 8.75 / 10
10. Slyvania 6SL7GT black base 7/10
11. Brimar 6SL7GT (black base) 6.25/10
12. Reflektor black base 70's version 5/10
The Black Adder
10-11-2020, 08:40
Hi Andrew.
Just a note, Marco's are grey glass. We're yours the same?
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
The Black Adder
10-11-2020, 08:43
I'd like to do some rolling. I have Brimar Mill spec 1988 black glass 6SN7s in my copper. I'd like to give something else a go.
As for my croft. I still have the Synvania 6SL7s mill spec in my phono stage as recommended by Marco quite a few years ago now.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Wakefield Turntables
10-11-2020, 09:18
Hi Andrew.
Just a note, Marco's are grey glass. We're yours the same?
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Hi Jo,
Yes they are the same. I've seen quite a few forums over in the USA where these values are simply referred to as "black bottles" I don't think they differentiate. But in the picture they do look grey, perhaps they are a slight variant?? I'd wager money they are probably made by the same company and sourced out the Raytheon and National Union. They do look identical. I've tried the Slyvania 6SL7GT black base and found them to be a nice sounding valve and I lived when them for quite some time until I went nuts and started by different matched pairs of 6SL7's every Sunday night after a few drams of single malt!
Hi guys,
Firstly, the glass is defo grey, not a black of any description!:)
And yes, both are VT-229s, so military spec 6SL7GTs. One is badged as Raytheon, and the other as National Union. The internal construction of both valves is identical. It's my understanding that Raytheon (once a huge electronics and vacuum tube producing company) had some of their tubes rebranded under different names, one of which was National Union. So essentially they are Raytheons.
The key factors in terms of how good they sound is that they are a very closely matched pair, indeed one valve is fully balanced, and that they are 1940s vintage. That last bit is CRUCIAL, in terms of ascertaining if the ones you've had, Andy, were the same. IME, even one or two years of age difference can have a significant impact on matters.
Therefore, 1950s, 60s, 70s or later ones, all sound quite different, with the earlier varieties invariably always being best. Therefore, ONLY if yours were 1940s vintage and grey-glass can you say you've heard the same valves... I also like red-base 5691s, but unlike you they aren't my favourite 6SL7.
As I've said before, mate, results are totally dependent on the circuit used, and we've already identified in a previous discussion we had about 5691s, with your Croft needing modified by Alan before it could take them, and mine not, so clearly our amps react differently to the valves used, therefore proving that it's pointless compiling lists of 'The best 6SL7s', in a sense that it will apply universally or be definitive, which of course for reasons stated it can't.
In that respect, unfortunately, there is no 'one size fits all' valve, of any description, but nonetheless that doesn't stop you or I recommending specific ones, and it being interesting (and also potentially beneficial) to others:cool:
Marco.
DarrenHW
11-11-2020, 17:54
Well, until I have a peek inside, that's not been confirmed!;) So we'll see...
Which we did today and the answer is 12uF
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50590972657_425d6b096a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2k5xXBg)
The next big question, is what will you replace it with?
I'd like to do some rolling. I have Brimar Mill spec 1988 black glass 6SN7s in my copper. I'd like to give something else a go.
As for my croft. I still have the Synvania 6SL7s mill spec in my phono stage as recommended by Marco quite a few years ago now.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
try these they are a step above in my opinion https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?70880-FS-Matched-pair-Tung-Sol-6F8G
try these they are a step above in my opinion https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?70880-FS-Matched-pair-Tung-Sol-6F8G
Problem is, Jamie, she needs 4!:eek::D
...and also, physically, the glass envelope of those valves is too bulbous for them to fit side by side, where they need to go, as there isn't much room.
Marco.
Which we did today and the answer is 12uF
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50590972657_425d6b096a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2k5xXBg)
The next big question, is what will you replace it with?
Lol, thanks for that, mate. Could you email me all the pics you took today of the above? If you haven't already got my addy, then PM me for it.
As for what to replace them with... I'm currently considering various options and will report back later!:cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
11-11-2020, 20:16
Hi guys,
Firstly, the glass is defo grey, not a black of any description!:)
And yes, both are VT-229s, so military spec 6SL7GTs. One is badged as Raytheon, and the other as National Union. The internal construction of both valves is identical. It's my understanding that Raytheon (once a huge electronics and vacuum tube producing company) had some of their tubes rebranded under different names, one of which was National Union. So essentially they are Raytheons.
The key factors in terms of how good they sound is that they are a very closely matched pair, indeed one valve is fully balanced, and that they are 1940s vintage. That last bit is CRUCIAL, in terms of ascertaining if the ones you've had, Andy, were the same. IME, even one or two years of age difference can have a significant impact on matters.
Therefore, 1950s, 60s, 70s or later ones, all sound quite different, with the earlier varieties invariably always being best. Therefore, ONLY if yours were 1940s vintage and grey-glass can you say you've heard the same valves... I also like red-base 5691s, but unlike you they aren't my favourite 6SL7.
As I've said before, mate, results are totally dependent on the circuit used, and we've already identified in a previous discussion we had about 5691s, with your Croft needing modified by Alan before it could take them, and mine not, so clearly our amps react differently to the valves used, therefore proving that it's pointless compiling lists of 'The best 6SL7s', in a sense that it will apply universally or be definitive, which of course for reasons stated it can't.
In that respect, unfortunately, there is no 'one size fits all' valve, of any description, but nonetheless that doesn't stop you or I recommending specific ones, and it being interesting (and also potentially beneficial) to others:cool:
Marco.
No arguments with those statements, it's fun messing about with stuff innit!!
Wakefield Turntables
11-11-2020, 20:17
Lol, thanks for that, mate. Could you email me all the pics you took today of the above? If you haven't already got my addy, then PM me for it.
As for what to replace them with... I'm currently considering various options and will report back later!:cool:
Marco.
I added a pair of Duelund 0.01uF tinner copper bypass caps. They sound bloody lovely.
The ones I'm replacing though, Andy, as 12uF, and I can't get Duelunds in that value.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
11-11-2020, 21:04
The ones I'm replacing though, Andy, as 12uF, and I can't get Duelunds in that value.
Marco.
Yep, you can keep the 12uF in situ if you like. I seem to remember you saying you really liked the noise they produced. The bypass caps keep the uF value at 12uf (well 12.001 uf) but you get to experience the Duelund flavour! Have a look at post 60, that's what I used. https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46516-My-quot-REAL-SOUND-quot-experiment/page2&highlight=celestion+ditton I also used Janzten Audio Silver Z Cap 2% to recap the XO's. The caps are worth more than the speakers but they sound very good.
The ones I'm replacing though, Andy, as 12uF, and I can't get Duelunds in that value.
Marco.I use both Dueland and Jupiter copper foil output caps in the output stage of my DAC.
.47 uF Dueland versus 2.2uF Jupiter.
The Jupiter's sound better generally. Smoother and warmer. The Dueland's appear more accurate and possibly a smidge faster.
That might purely be due to capacitance values rather than actual real differences in construction. The capacitance value of the Jupiter's means better bass extension, which may account for the marginal, and I do mean marginal perception of warmth.
That said the character traits of a few of the triodes I use in that output stage work better with the Duelands. But they are in the minority.
As bypass caps some pussy (non man like, small) value of either will probably be fine.
Yep, you can keep the 12uF in situ if you like. I seem to remember you saying you really liked the noise they produced. The bypass caps keep the uF value at 12uf (well 12.001 uf) but you get to experience the Duelund flavour! Have a look at post 60, that's what I used. https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46516-My-quot-REAL-SOUND-quot-experiment/page2&highlight=celestion+ditton I also used Janzten Audio Silver Z Cap 2% to recap the XO's. The caps are worth more than the speakers but they sound very good.
Ah yes, Andy, interesting idea...I hadn't considered bypass caps. The lower capacitance value of such would certainly reduce costs when choosing 'exotic' replacements!:)
Are you saying that you used the Z-Caps to replace the original 12uF ones, then bypassed them with Duelunds? If not, I'm unsure what you mean.
Marco.
I use both Dueland and Jupiter copper foil output caps in the output stage of my DAC.
.47 uF Dueland versus 2.2uF Jupiter.
The Jupiter's sound better generally. Smoother and warmer. The Dueland's appear more accurate and possibly a smidge faster.
That might purely be due to capacitance values rather than actual real differences in construction. The capacitance value of the Jupiter's means better bass extension, which may account for the marginal, and I do mean marginal perception of warmth.
That said the character traits of a few of the triodes I use in that output stage work better with the Duelands. But they are in the minority.
As bypass caps some pussy (non man like, small) value of either will probably be fine.
Thanks, Justers, that's also very useful info:):thumbsup:
Marco.
Also, Andy, how did you work out the value of the bypass caps as optimally being 0.01uF?:)
Marco.
Thanks, Justers, that's also very useful info:)[emoji106]
Marco.Probably bollox. But factor it into your equation;)
Yeah, dude, but der's skanky-ass, playin' at it bollox, and PRIMO bollox... Dat's PRIMO quality bollox, no shit...:eyebrows:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
11-11-2020, 22:59
My 15's had a cap value of 4.7uF. I have a later version of 15's than yours. I have no idea why yours is 12uF and mines 4uF's, the dudes at celestion must have had good reasons. I replaced the old knackered 4.7uf caps on the XO with the Jantzen's and loved the sound. I then wanted to try the Duelund bypass caps, I bought a pair and then bypassed the Jantzens, I can see a lot of members rubbing their heads at this point. Well, it worked very very well indeed and I have no intentions of doing any further modding to the 15's XO. The bypass cap has a very very low value so that all the original XO cap values are maintained and the voicing is kept in place. So I didn't work out the optimal value. All bypass caps have similar low values. Hope this roughly explains things.
Makes sense, mate. So do you think that 0.1uF, as bypass caps, would work the same with my 12uF originals, as they did with your 4.7uF, or would a different value be required?:)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
12-11-2020, 09:28
They should work with original caps. It's always worthwhile getting your xo cap values checked out and making sure they are 12uf. Mine had drifted away from 4.7uf markedly. The Jantzens had +\- 2% tolerance to the 4.7uf value I needed and they actually measured within 0.5% tolerance. I'm not sure what tolerances your old caps on your xo should be probably somewhere between 5-10%. The bypass caps have a very low nominal value, this should keep any desired tolerance very very close to what's needed for your xo, in my instance 4.7uf and in your instance 12uf. I can't understand why a speaker designer would want to use a cap with a specific value only to use something with a 10% tolerance of the value needed. Surely the desired voicing of the speaker is going to be dramatically effected? So my logic was to use something that got me very close to a value of 4.7uf.
Beobloke
12-11-2020, 10:31
. I can't understand why a speaker designer would want to use a cap with a specific value only to use something with a 10% tolerance of the value needed. Surely the desired voicing of the speaker is going to be dramatically effected? So my logic was to use something that got me very close to a value of 4.7uf.
I can answer this one - because the 4.7uF Jantzen Silver capacitor is £20 but the same value in their budget MKT range is £1!
When the speaker it’s going in is a budget model, that extra £19 is just not viable economically.
As to the 10% tolerance affecting the voicing of the speaker, its effects will be minimal. It will contribute to the sound far less than the natural and unavoidable physical differences between one drive unit and another.
walpurgis
12-11-2020, 10:38
As to the 10% tolerance affecting the voicing of the speaker, its effects will be minimal
Quite probably to the point of being indiscernible.
Wakefield Turntables
12-11-2020, 10:56
Thanks guys For the explanations.
Ok, then... 0.1uF bypass caps it is! Now to decide on which sexy-ass babies to strap-on...:eyebrows:
Always fancied trying some nice paper-in-oils in loudspeaker crossovers, so now's my chance!:)
Marco.
Ok... The deed's been done! Decided to go one better than the PIOs I was looking at, and try these Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax jobbies: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jupiter_copper_foil_in_wax.html
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/YvppVr.jpg
Loved the description of the sound:
"Wax with very special sonic characteristics, better damping and thermal characteristics was chosen as a perfect match. Further, new lead termination technique has allowed the music to flow more naturally. Without exception, every detail has been tailored to this specific copper capacitor design. After four years of refinement Jupiter Copper Foil capacitors are here.
Life like vibrance gives the feeling of presence, along with micro-detail, holographic bass, and aural decay that is disarmingly natural, the ears will know immediately."
...so couldn't resist!!:D
And I'll be replacing the stock binding posts with these copper CMCs, which seemed really good value: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/binding_posts/cmc-838-s-cur-short-speaker-terminals.html
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/TctIVk.jpg
Full report to follow once Dazza's visited and wielded his trusty soldering iron!:cool:
Marco.
Yeah, dude, but der's skanky-ass, playin' at it bollox, and PRIMO bollox... Dat's PRIMO quality bollox, no shit...:eyebrows:
Marco.Init bro!
Out here on the perimeter there are no stars . Out here we is sound immaculate.
Courtesy J. Morrison;)
The Black Adder
12-11-2020, 18:49
Init bro!
Out here on the perimeter there are no stars . Out here we is sound immaculate.
Courtesy J. Morrison;)Isn't it, Stoned Immaculate?
[emoji106][emoji16]
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Isn't it, Stoned Immaculate?
[emoji106][emoji16]
Sent from my 9001X using TapatalkDefiny not Josie. Definy not.
Issy u deaf?:)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0tBVLVRWGGvQyokrAHqJUhBAv5WIElAX
Interesting review here of the Duelunds versus the Jupiter Copper Foils: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0514/jupiter_copper_foil_paper_wax_capacitor.htm
Also here: https://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/jupiter_copperfoil.php
Can't wait to hear what these do, and if it goes as well as I think, I'll be introducing some into the Xovers for my Tannoys!:cool:
Marco.
Something else worth noting, I pulled out my NOS 1945, military spec ,Tung Sol Black Glass 6SU7GTYs [premium quality 6SL7s] from my 'spares box', and popped them in the Croft, as I hadn't used them for a while:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/MKrU0n.jpg
...and WOW - I'd forgotten just HOW good these are!!:eek:
Massive 'walk around' soundstage, holographic imaging and pinpoint micro-detailing, with the creamiest and most mellifluous midrange (a la Mullard, but on steroids) you've ever heard, combined with a gorgeously organic and tonally rich (but tight and tuneful) bass. Very addictive... They'll be staying put! Rather like 1950s-vintage ECC83s are the best, so are 1940s 6SL7s!
Andy, you should try and get hold of some of these tubes, as IMO they knock 5691s into a cocked hat:)
Marco.
Interesting review here of the Duelunds versus the Jupiter Copper Foils: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0514/jupiter_copper_foil_paper_wax_capacitor.htm
Also here: https://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/jupiter_copperfoil.php
Can't wait to hear what these do, and if it goes as well as I think, I'll be introducing some into the Xovers for my Tannoys!:cool:
Marco.I had some Teflon V-Cap CuTF caps spoken about in an earlier Lampizator.
I think the Jupiter's are much better. The Teflon's sound a bit odd to me. Too slippery smooth and it is like everything sounds 'polished". A weird description I know. But that's the word that describes it!
IMHO Dueland are way overpriced compared to Jupiter. I can see some people considering the Duelands superior but me and someone else I know prefer Jupiter. But with the caveats I mentioned earlier WRT capacitance values.
Your description of your Tung Sol remind me of my Tung Sol 6A3 BTW. I consider those the most organic triodes I own. And I own shit loads.
Wakefield Turntables
13-11-2020, 18:22
S
Andy, you should try and get hold of some of these tubes, as IMO they knock 5691s into a cocked hat
Marco.
We shall see, I need to get a pair first. I do own a pair of Tung Sol 67SLGT (Black bottle/Micanol base) but not the "Y" version. I rate these as very good tubes in the context of my own system. As an aside you might want to speak to Paul @ RFC, he's made lots of new modifications to Tannoy XO's since you last had yours done. We checked mine out and I'd gained a dB of efficiency. I've his top spec sitting in mine. I don't have any Duelund components sitting in my XO.
I think it's important to say that familiarity does breed some degree of contempt and a change is as good as a rest with component swapping.
With a large collection of valves when you really get to know their various personalities sometimes it's like meeting old friends if you haven't heard a particular valve in a good while.
It's almost a personal relationship, and sometimes you feel guilty that you've neglected them for a good while in favour of something else.
Tis an odd thing.
Whilst I feel that's true, some friends (or valves) are better than others. Not just different, but basically better.
Hey, ho.
:)
The Black Adder
14-11-2020, 04:40
We shall see, I need to get a pair first. I do own a pair of Tung Sol 67SLGT (Black bottle/Micanol base) but not the "Y" version. I rate these as very good tubes in the context of my own system. As an aside you might want to speak to Paul @ RFC, he's made lots of new modifications to Tannoy XO's since you last had yours done. We checked mine out and I'd gained a dB of efficiency. I've his top spec sitting in mine. I don't have any Duelund components sitting in my XO.You should get some duelund in yours. In my research (and we (tannoyista) did a lot) they made a marked difference.
I can't remember the name to whom made Marco's but I know he was very well regarded.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
I had some Teflon V-Cap CuTF caps spoken about in an earlier Lampizator.
I think the Jupiter's are much better. The Teflon's sound a bit odd to me. Too slippery smooth and it is like everything sounds 'polished". A weird description I know. But that's the word that describes it!
IMHO Dueland are way overpriced compared to Jupiter. I can see some people considering the Duelands superior but me and someone else I know prefer Jupiter. But with the caveats I mentioned earlier WRT capacitance values.
Your description of your Tung Sol remind me of my Tung Sol 6A3 BTW. I consider those the most organic triodes I own. And I own shit loads.
Interesting thoughts, Justers. As I've said, different makes of valves, caps, resistors or whatever will largely sound different, depending on the circuit they're in, and also like anything else, in terms of preference, it will come down to the individual tastes of the listener.
However, that said, I do think that, in general, the products from specific manufacturers tend to have a 'house sound', ably identified among the consensus of numerous users who, despite having different gear, have reported a similar sonic signature, hence for example why, with valves, that of Mullards and Telefunkens is universally considered as being at opposite ends of the tonal scale - and that also tends to happen with capacitors.
At the end of the day, however, you're essentially dealing with 'flavours', and the task of successfully combining them within the context/sonic signature of your own equipment, and therefore what sounds 'best' will ultimately always be governed by that:)
It does seem though that the Duelands are a little overpriced compared with he Jupiters, which is one of the reasons I opted for the latter for this project [as you know achieving the highest SPPV is always high on my agenda], so I'm looking forward to hearing what they do:cool:
Marco.
We shall see, I need to get a pair first. I do own a pair of Tung Sol 67SLGT (Black bottle/Micanol base) but not the "Y" version. I rate these as very good tubes in the context of my own system. As an aside you might want to speak to Paul @ RFC, he's made lots of new modifications to Tannoy XO's since you last had yours done. We checked mine out and I'd gained a dB of efficiency. I've his top spec sitting in mine. I don't have any Duelund components sitting in my XO.
Hi Andy,
Firstly, remember that the valves I'm talking about, and illustrated earlier, were 6SU7GTY [the 'U' is significant], not standard 6SL7s; although they are electrically similar, and so considered as equivalents. The ones you're looking for are the 1940s versions, with black glass and black writing, on a dark brown base. Those are the best sounding.
Others of later vintages will not be the same, or indeed anything marked as a 6SL7. These are very much premium, military spec versions of the latter. A pair of 1950s ones were sold a while back on here: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49209-WTD-Tung-Sol-6SU7-tubes&p=829084#post829084
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/mGSsKA.jpg
You can see that those have white writing on them, rather than the black of the 1940s ones, which shows that they're later versions. Still sublime sounding, though!
In terms of crossovers, I hear what you're saying and I'm glad that you've had some useful gains, but I have my own people I use for such work, and with these types of projects, like I'm doing with the Celestions, I prefer choosing the components myself and creating my own 'sonic signature', as that's all part of the fun!:cool:
Marco.
I can't remember the name to whom made Marco's but I know he was very well regarded.
The guy who did mine is a member here called 'swampy', David. He's top notch, and one of the best I've ever seen at soldering stuff. Amazing neatness and attention to detail! He did all the point-to-point wiring on the crossovers for my Tannoys:)
If I really like what the Jupiters do, I intend on trying them in there, perhaps instead of the Clarity Caps, or something else. We'll see!
Marco.
I think it's important to say that familiarity does breed some degree of contempt and a change is as good as a rest with component swapping.
With a large collection of valves when you really get to know their various personalities sometimes it's like meeting old friends if you haven't heard a particular valve in a good while.
Yes, I agree with that. The other thing is that, chances are, in the interim, you'll have changed your system in some way, added a new component, cables or whatever, so what was 'best' before, in a particular context, won't necessarily be so now...;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
14-11-2020, 21:31
Here we are a little picture of my Duelund bypass caps in the 15's. Very nice they sound.https://i.ibb.co/ZhGL4br/WP-20201006-006.jpg
Interesting... Aside from the cap changes, they look quite different from the crossovers in mine!
Did you assess the speakers first, just by changing the existing caps for the Jantzens, or do both mods at once?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
14-11-2020, 22:14
No I did the Jantzen's first and then modded them with the bypass caps about 3-6 months later. I did the bypass caps about a month ago. The Jantzens replaced some clarity caps. Here's the original thread https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49941-Celestion-ditton-15-restoration-project&highlight=celestion+ditton I've now got the 15's setup and intend to listen to them over the next couple of weeks to get a handle on what the bypass caps are doing. The old wardrobes have been pushed aside!
Ok, noted. So what did both mods bring to the party, sonically, but especially the bypass caps?:)
Your 15s are defo much later than mine, probably by about 10 years, with yours being from 1977. Aside from the crossover components, even the original binding posts look more modern.
This is what mine currently look like:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/Dsb3wq.jpg
Compared with your old ones on the left:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/w7b2DC.jpg
...which are positively 'high-end' in comparison!:D
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
15-11-2020, 11:38
Marco,
Family time and lunch beckon so I'll write something tonight.
No worries, matey. I'm in a similar position myself:)
Marco.
Just scored a nice matched pair of these vintage tubes. 'Coin Base' RCAs are often frowned upon by audiophiles, but I actually like using them (and vintage RCAs in general), in key areas of the Croft's phono stage.
They have a nicely open, punchy and dynamic sound, and not in any way thin-toned [as is often their criticism] when used in the right circuit, and which doesn't need the rather 'plump' bass enhancement of 'phat' sounding tubes. When tube rolling, and subsequently optimising the sound, it's all about successfully combining 'flavours'!:)
Anyway, here are the little 'tall-bottled' bastards...:D
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/tF3nGn.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/5oFP5k.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/MbsIGD.jpg
Nicely constructed... Look at those nice fat shiny pins!
Oh, and as an aside, this is a rather interesting site, detailing the history of many different valves, but this bit is involving 6SL7s and their history, which folks here using them should read: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2016/05/tube-of-month-6sl7.html
Just to report that the RCAs landed yesterday, and..... They're bloody brilliant!:eek::D
Firstly, these 'coin base' RCAs are very well made, and heavier than most other valves of the same type, due to what appears to be a thicker/denser type of glass, plus the (visually at least) heavier-duty construction of the internals, and also the thickness of the pins. In that respect, they're superior to earlier 1960s versions, which is rather unusual, and the first time I've experienced that with valves of a later vintage (in this case 1970s), being better built than previous ones.
Sonically, they're very dynamic, punchy and 'alive', allowing appropriate music (such as metal, in this case Tool) to motor along with an addictive impetus and rhythmic drive, which is rather grin-inducing! However, they're also extremely detailed and able to pull out the subtest of musical information buried in the densest of mixes, as well as imbuing voices with the requisite 'air & space' in order to sound convincing and real. The top end is also suitably 'crisp', but never bright or spotlit.
Therefore, these are defo keepers, and rank among the best NOS 6SL7s I've heard!:cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
17-11-2020, 19:21
Ooooh, something new to try out!
Well, treat yourself... The seller I used still has a pair left: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Platinum-Matched-Pair-RCA-6SL7GT-Coin-Base-NOS-NIB-black-plates/252080002467?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
:cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
18-11-2020, 10:06
Hi Andrew.
I've just sent you a message.
For anyone else who is interested, everything you need to know in regards to the upgrades I've had done to the Croft are here:
https://www.tannoyista.com/2020/06/croft-epoch-elite-pre-amplifier-highly.html
:)
Fantastic, Jo... Andy, *that* is how it should be done!:eyebrows:
No doubt Jo's got a world-class preamp there now, very similar to mine [in real terms probably in the £15-20k league] - and trust me, when you hear what a preamp like that is capable of, sonically and musically, you simply WON'T use anything else - EVER! As it would almost certainly be a downgrade:trust:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
18-11-2020, 19:39
Hi Andrew.
I've just sent you a message.
For anyone else who is interested, everything you need to know in regards to the upgrades I've had done to the Croft are here:
https://www.tannoyista.com/2020/06/croft-epoch-elite-pre-amplifier-highly.html
:)
A very big THANKYOU Josie. :clapclapclap: .
The Black Adder
18-11-2020, 19:48
Cool :) Happy to help.
So.... Jupiter bypass caps now in situ (and new binding posts fitted) to the Celestion 15s:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50633547827_9e4d343be0_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2k9jaHV)
Result? BIG (and very noticeable) improvement in the sound!:eek::D
Full report later...
Also, just bought some 12uF NOS Soviet paper-in-oil caps, to try as replacements for the original electrolytic ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-12uF-500V-K42-19-PIO-Paper-CAPACITORS-K4219-LOT-4pcs-NOS-408/254031082969?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/6s6Dbv.jpg
Those should be here by the first week in December, so we'll see what they do, too!:cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-11-2020, 19:22
Told you so!
The Black Adder
23-11-2020, 20:05
Russian PIOs are brilliant. I have some left over from the crossover research.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Weel.... I'd been thinking of getting back into the 'humble' cassette tape again for quite a while, having last dabbled in it about 10 years ago, with a Nakamichi DR-10. I'd originally thought of returning to what I'd used in the 80s, for a little bit of nostalgia, which was a BX-125E, then thought of going better with the 3-head BX-300E...
However, a search on Ebay revealed this vintage Tandberg, and I fell in love with the the VU meters and its overall 'retro' looks:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/2VcVD5.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/tOuDjf.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/8YFyyv.jpg
Original purchase receipt:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/9gp2y6.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/v7GO76.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/dZyoxm.jpg
Even comes with some NOS tapes! And joy of joys, it was located in Wrexham, 15 mins from my house!:D
Not only that, but also the seller's description, for a piece of vintage kit, was 'text book':
"This was a prized possession of my fathers who bought this on 06.01.75 for £157.50 as per the receipt in the photos. It is immaculate and I have tried to show any tiny marks in the photos. The deck comes with all the original paperwork including receipt, guarantee card, operation instructions, vertical mounting strips, and a variety of other information that had been acquired and copied."
A totally quality thing, with only one owner from new and in virtually mint condition, with the original purchase receipt, instruction manual and guarantee! £157.50 in 1975, equates to around £1300 today...:eek: So this is top-of-the-range gear from its time, and from a renowned and arguably 'Rolls Royce' manufacturer of cassette and reel-to-reel tape machines.
More info here: https://stereonomono.blogspot.com/2014/04/tandberg-tcd-310.html#:~:text=Now%20Tandberg%20has%20made%20a,D olby%20B%20noise%20reduction%20system.
What makes this deck a little more interesting is that it has 3 motors, one synchronous motor for record/replay, and two motors for fast forward and backward winding.
It doesn't need to do metal tape, as I prefer good chrome position ones anyway. I still have lots of unopened NOS tapes, from the best manufacturers, I'd bought before from ebay (shown below). Not plugged it into the system yet, but sounded great at the seller's house when I collected it.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/iIAV3b.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/60g0Qo.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/K0rrG6.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/HyTjjQ.jpg
I intend on enjoying it for a while 'as is', then having it fully serviced by RDE, just to get it performing at its full original potential. Anyway, a nice bit of fun to have over Christmas, as I intend on recording lots of vinyl onto tape and making up some good compilations!:cool:
Marco.
Always good to see 45 year old kit still in showroom condition with all the paperwork. How it should be. That's a great score. I've always rated Tandberg. Cut above.
Seeing those old BASF and TDK tapes brings a lot of memories back. Everyone had their favourite, used to get quite tribal as I recall. The TDK-SA boys vs everyone else - who were wrong ofc.
i had one of those, or very similar model... excellent decks.
Always good to see 45 year old kit still in showroom condition with all the paperwork. How it should be. That's a great score. I've always rated Tandberg. Cut above.
Seeing those old BASF and TDK tapes brings a lot of memories back. Everyone had their favourite, used to get quite tribal as I recall. The TDK-SA boys vs everyone else - who were wrong ofc.
Ah, the rabid 'tape wars' - I remember them well!:D
I did like TDA SA (and SA-X), plus Maxell and others, but my favs were the BASF Chromdioxid (as shown) - a nicely crisp, dynamic and weighty sound, but of course much of that is down to the deck used, how well the heads are set up, and synergy with different tape formulations.
I agree with what you said. The looks, condition and provenance was what sold it to me, plus the 3-motor thing, and the fact that there are much less moving parts than normal for a tape deck. With a proper service, it should perform as new, as well as look like it, and be easily maintained.
It was £250, so not 'beer money', but considering the condition and its sonic potential when fully serviced (it's already very good), plus the fact that collection was local, I thought it was worth it:cool:
Marco.
i had one of those, or very similar model... excellent decks.
Cheers, mate. Interesting that you had one. How long ago are you talking about and where did you get it from?:)
Marco.
Aye, the rabid 'tape wars' - I remember them well!:D
I did like TDA SA (and SA-X), plus Maxell and others, but my favs were the BASF Chromdioxid (as shown) - a nicely crisp, dynamic and weighty sound, but of course much of that is down to the deck used, how well the heads are set up, and synergy with different tape formulations.
I agree with what you said. The looks, condition and provenance was what sold it to me, plus the 3-motor thing and the fact that there are much less moving parts than normal for a tape deck. With a proper service, it should perform as new, as well as look like it, and be easily maintained.
It was £250, so not 'beer money', but considering the condition and its sonic potential when fully serviced (it's already very good), plus the fact that collection was local, I thought it was worth it:cool:
Marco.
That's a good price, have you seen what tape decks are selling for now? Utter tat is selling for not much less. Plus Tandberg kit in good nick has always held its price.
Cheers, mate. Interesting that you had one. How long ago are you talking about and where did you get it from?:)
Marco.
got it on here and resold it here. (i think) might have been different model but very similar otherwise. I did like it ;build quality is superb really and sounded good too. Ive done away with tape medium although ive lots of tapes, including lots of new old stock ones i got from Barry. Still got a cd style loading cassette deck but not used it for years.. think it was a denon
Shovel_Knight
28-11-2020, 16:00
Ah yes, the famous Shure SC35C. I'm quite fond of it myself, I have an old "made in USA" one along with a small stash of styli (most also NOS "made in USA" with white lettering as opposed to later Mexican ones with black Shure logo). They are the best, although this Jico conical is not bad at all (it tracks very well at 3g): https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n-44-7x/
Wakefield Turntables
28-11-2020, 18:33
Blimey, the lad has gone completely audiophile bonkers. I've never seen as much kit documented in such a long time. Keep up the good work Marco. I'm feeling less sanguine about the hobby myself!
Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
:D
I had a pretty decent Technics machine in the 70s. The only way I liked it was with Maxwell ferric oxide tapes and definitely no Dolby. Dolby was like listening through an ear muffler. Just plain sucked.
Sssssssssssssssssssssss. Ssss.
LOL.
No clicks and pops, though, which lets face it are even more annoying. TBH the ssssing never bothered me much as the music I listened to didn't have much in the way of quiet passages.
Enjoy Marco tis quite pretty.
I thought the number of 'Dolbys' a deck had was purely a status symbol. Did anyone ever use any of them when taping a mate's records? Except once to discover that on balance they'd rather have the hiss?
I used mine mainly for recording John Peel.
I had to find what I had.
Here it is. It was a well made thing. It got nicked, unfortunately.
https://youtu.be/Hqwt6pkBCzQ
Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
:D
I had a pretty decent Technics machine in the 70s. The only way I liked it was with Maxwell ferric oxide tapes and definitely no Dolby. Dolby was like listening through an ear muffler. Just plain sucked.
Sssssssssssssssssssssss. Ssss.
LOL.
No clicks and pops, though, which lets face it are even more annoying. TBH the ssssing never bothered me much as the music I listened to didn't have much in the way of quiet passages.
Enjoy Marco tis quite pretty.
Lolz - churz! Clicks and pops? Not on my vinyl watch, bro!:nono: Moi black frisbees iz squeaky cleanio, so niento poppity-clickety:D
Yeah, totally agree about zero Dolby - eva! In terms of audible hiss in between tracks, there isn't much at all (even through 95db Tannoys) with the sound up pretty loud and Dolby off, as this thing is so well 'sorted'.
I'm currently in the process of recording a CD to tape (Yello - Touch), using one of the NOS Maxells, so will report back on the results when finished. What a joy it is having cool VU meters to use for adjusting levels, along with some good slide controls for each channel - *so* much better than naff LEDs and a knob...
On playback of chrome tapes I'd made from my system years ago, I'm very pleased with the sound - really crisp, clear and punchy, with a lovely rich, tight and tuneful bass, SO analogue! Even without it having had a proper service so far, the Tandberg is right up there with the best decks I've heard, including top Sonys, Pioneers and Naks.
It has a very open sound and isn't rounded-off or muffled in the mids and top end like many of its ilk, and in that respect sounds more like good CD than tape, but with that addictively 'creamy' and organic sound you only get with analogue.
There's defo more to come though with a proper service. I examined the heads and pinch rollers earlier, and can see little signs of wear, but gave them both a good clean - not much dirt came off, which is testament to how well this deck's been looked after - and it is veritably immaculate. Like Martin says, 'showroom condition'!:)
I'm using the phono sockets just now as outputs to the preamp, but there's also an option of a 5-pin DIN socket (to phono), a la Quad and B&O, which the manual says is more sensitive than the phono sockets, so once a suitable cable arrives, I'll be trying that to see if there is any difference. It sounds great through the phonos, but I suspect there may be a gain in SQ using the DIN.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying it, so it's defo 250 notes well spent!:cool:
Marco.
I thought the number of 'Dolbys' a deck had was purely a status symbol. Did anyone ever use any of them when taping a mate's records? Except once to discover that on balance they'd rather have the hiss?
Yeah, defo... Although as I've just told Justers, there really isn't much hiss to speak of. A nice thing too is that when you're in record mode, a really cool big (vertical) red light illuminates, rather like the 'On Air' sign you once seen in radio stations, and along with the coloured VU meters, creates a nice glow in the dark!:D
Marco.
Find yourself a PXL-2000 and you can record video on your cassette tapes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL-2000
Actually although analogue VU meters are pretty, the LEDs were a significant advance at the time. They were much quicker and hence more accurate at displaying peaks. And the ones on my Technics were lovely. Spent ages just staring at them.
I wouldn't mind that machine again. Three on eBay in Germany at the moment. £180. Not sure I want to bother with the servicing etc.
Find yourself a PXL-2000 and you can record video on your cassette tapes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL-2000
A cool thing... But not really something I'm into:)
Marco.
Actually although analogue VU meters are pretty, the LEDs were a significant advance at the time. They were much quicker and hence more accurate at displaying peaks. And the ones on my Technics were lovely. Spent ages just staring at them.
Yeah they looked good on the video, although I'd have to disagree about LEDs. I like to see tips of needles hitting the red zone on meters, not (what I consider) as indistinct, flickering bursts of light on the peaks. I guess it's a personal thing, but I can just read VU meters easier - and at the end of the day, something is only as accurate as you're successfully able to use it:)
I wouldn't mind that machine again. Three on eBay in Germany at the moment. £180. Not sure I want to bother with the servicing etc.
You should take the plunge, as it doesn't necessarily need to compete with your other sources, sonically, just provide a bit fun.The big bonus for me will be making up compilations of my 80s 12" singles (got around 1000 of them), and over Christmas enjoying them through the Celestions downstairs in the lounge.
Servicing isn't a massive issue, depending on how much the deck is used and how well it's looked after. Once I get the Tandberg done, I wouldn't envisage needing it serviced again in years.
Got a few NOS 100-minute blank tapes, so having nearly an hour's worth of uninterrupted choons from my yoof, per side, will be quite nice! My next toy though will be a Tascam CD-R machine, so I can start ripping vinyl again to CD, and do it to a very high standard:cool:
Marco.
I used to have a Sony cassette machine which I bought when I found it could make equally good recordings as my Series 6 Ferrograph reel-to-reel machine, but without the inconvenience of the latter.
It had fluorescent bar meters which I liked as it had the facility of leaving a short term record of the highest reading ( a bit like a maximum and minimum thermometer). The argument over whether needle meters or bar meters are better or not, is simply one of aesthetics. What is more important is the 'ballistics' - how quickly does the meter react, and how quickly does it fall back from a peak. In that respect PPM (peak programme meters) are much better than VU (volume unit) meters, and I have found that in general bar meters have similar ballistics to that of PPMs.
I quickly found out that the best tape to use was Sony's own, as the bias etc was obviously set up for it. It was poor with pre-recorded tapes (I later found out that only a few manufacturers adhered to the Philips Red-book specification).
Within a year or two I had replaced it with a Nakamichi B125E, and used it with 'bog standard' TDK D tape (but later had Bowers & Wilkins re-bias the machine so as to use TDK MA metal tape). Always used 90 minute tapes, so as to fit two LPs worth. Oh, and I also used Dolby 'B', as I could hear the difference with and without. The Nak also played back pre-recorded tapes properly, as it was one of the few machines to follow the Red Book; not that I had many pre-recorded tapes (about three, I think). Most of the tapes I made were for the car, but I did record some plays and many, many editions of 'Late Junction' on Radio 3, to hear 'new', contemporary Classical, Electronic and 'ethnic' music.
I also have a Nakamichi BX-2 machine - forerunner of the BX125. Both machines are capable of making good recordings. I once made a copy of a piano concerto using TDK metal tape in a metal-bodied cassette - the copy was indistinguishable from the CD. I wish I had bought a lot more of the metal-bodied cassettes; they are absurdly priced these days.
I do have a CD recorder, picked up for a song, but haven't tried out yet. Must do so, if only to record CDs for the car (I dislike the 'slot' entry players, fearing they might scratch the CDs, so will only play copies).
All interesting stuff, Barry.
I take your point about meters, but as I'm not really making 'serious' recordings, absolute accuracy isn't important. The VU meters on the Tandberg are very well engineered and seem to do their job well - certainly good enough for me, and they also look cool, which in my case is an important factor..
I always found metal tapes, except one that Sony [and TDK] did, with a solid-metal casing/bodyshell, which was silly expensive, and sounded superb, rather 'shiny' sounding and lacking in warmth, tonally. A bit like they were trying too hard to sound 'super-clear and clean' (like 'digital'), to my ears, at the expense of musicality.
It's probably largely a personal taste thing, but I also feel the same way with, for example, many modern MC cartridges, which for me are voiced in a similar way: hi-fi over music.
The Tandberg [do you like it, btw?:)] seems to really like NOS (I only ever buy the best NOS, unopened blank tapes, as anything remotely new is cack in comparison) Maxell XLII90s, as the recordings I'm getting with those, with Dolby off and EQ set for Chrome, are quite superb, and quite honestly deviate little from the source CD. Yes, THAT good!:eek:
There's obviously nothing wrong with the heads of this machine, which is something that was of slight concern, as with 45+ years of use, you just don't know what you'll be getting in that respect... It'll be interesting hearing what (if any) difference a good service makes, but I'll be doing it mainly for peace of mind and to know that everything is 'right'.
I'll be spending some time tomorrow making recordings from vinyl, so I'm looking forward to how that turns out:cool:
Marco.
I thought the same about Chrome tapes. But I guess it's a matter of taste.
walpurgis
29-11-2020, 19:14
I seem to recall chrome tape had a reputation for wearing out heads.
I thought the same about Chrome tapes. But I guess it's a matter of taste.
Sure, but not for me, with the good ones. In that respect, I found the 'sweet spot', in terms of era, was from the late 70s to late 80s. The best chrome tapes from that period, for me, were very good indeed. The formulations just seemed to be spot on:)
You mentioned TDK D, which originally were superb (for a Normal position tape). I don't rate the more modern ones at all, but these are my favs (and best sounding examples) from my collection:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/AGEAeH.jpg
That one's from the late 70s. This one's from the early 80s:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/uC7tYp.jpg
And of course, for best SQ, the shorter the length of recording time the better, so that the tape isn't too thin:)
Marco.
P.S What do you think of the Tandberg?
I seem to recall chrome tape had a reputation for wearing out heads.
Didn't know about that, Geoff. I've certainly never experienced any such issues.
Marco.
I cannot comment on Tandberg cassette decks, but I hold their reel-to-reel machines in high regard. I used one in anger for a 24 hour non-stop recording session of friend's LPs just before I left University and thought it to be, IMO, superior to the rival Akai 4000. So given that, I would imagine your cassette machine to be similar.
Regarding aesthetics, I do prefer front loading macines over the top loaders.
Interesting, and yes I think you're right, as was Martin, when he said that Tandberg were a 'cut above'. For me, in terms of cassette decks, they're right up there, SQ wise, with Nakamichi:)
Btw, you can use the one I have just as easily vertically - and so it becomes a 'front loader':D:
https://youtu.be/cvxrFTqI_-8
It can even be hung on a wall.... Apologies for the music!:doh:
Marco.
'Naks' are an "obvious" choice, as are Rolex in the world of wrist watches. But there are some other 'sleepers' out there (as I'm sure Alex Nitikin (?) would acknowledge) - one of which would be (IMO) the N.E.A.L (British made and also favoured by Julian Vereker of Naim fame). It too was a top loader, as were most of the '70s designs.
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/202575269323_/NEAL-Ferrograph-302-Cassette-Deck-1980.jpg
As far as aesthetics are concerned, I've always liked the looks of the Nakamichi 700 and LX5 decks.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8FoAAOSw-bJfhpwr/s-l1600.jpg
700
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZGAAAOSw-6xfbNtd/s-l1600.jpg
But before we get too partisan about it all, I should say from my point of view, I have never regarded cassette as being a prime source, only a convenient and sufficiently good means to make recordings and copies. But in considering the recording quality achieved from using a tape of one half the width of that used in R2R machines and running at one quarter of the speed, it is an acknowledgement of the remarkable improvements in tape formulation made by the Japanese. Remember, Philips only ever considered the medium to be used for 'dictaphone' duties.
I like the NEAL (and yes I knew that they were widely used in the likes of Police stations, for doing interviews), but the other two don't really do it for me, aesthetically. A bit too 'B&O', in terms of styling, which isn't really my thing.
Yes, I agree about Naks, but I was mainly talking about sound quality, as for me they were one of the few companies who managed to elevate the (as you say humble) cassette tape veritably to a high-end audio music source.
I must've been luckier than you then (or perhaps willing to spend more on the best blank tapes;)), as I've always been able to get tape to sound top-notch, and almost as good as CD, given a good enough sound source, a quality deck, and painstakingly anal attention to detail, in terms of the recording process (I can spend the best part of 30 mins, for example, simply getting the levels right for ONE album).
Therefore, that done, for me cassette tape was definitely more capable, sonically, than stated by your experience - and this Tandberg is living up to the same type of promise, plus I know there's still more to come!:cool:
Marco.
Styling and 'looks' are always a matter of taste. As the French couturier Coco Chanel once said: "Style never goes out of fashion".
I do like the clean looks of B&O and Braun audio equipment; often unfairly dismissed as "Habitat HiFi". But then I also like the "laboratory chic" looks of some Ferrograph and EMT gear.
Well, I *love* Braun, Ferrograph and EMT gear - I'm just not a fan of B&O, or anything else that resembles it... So we have some things in common, in that respect.
The NEAL tape deck above is, aesthetically, the antithesis of the Naks you posted, and rather more representative of 'industrial chic' (or something that looks like it belongs in a lab), which is more my kind of thing:)
Marco.
I have no idea of the SQ, but I do like the looks of the B&O 1900:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5ToAAOSwTyhfU6oL/s-l1600.jpg
(Totally unrelated BTW - but I really dislike the use of 'Copperplate' or 'Italic' lettering on any audio gear.)
Lol... Well, I quite like that, because I share your love of 'simple clean lines', when it comes to hi-fi, and the unfussy (but classy) appearance of that deck is quite attractive, if a little bulky.
I think what I hate most about the looks of B&O gear is their turntables, with their skinny, tinny looking platters/horrible 'shiny plastic' looking mats and lightweight arms, as they're the complete antithesis of how I like T/Ts to look, and that's PURPOSEFUL/high-mass, rather 'soberly' styled, built like a brick shithouse and MASSIVELY over-engineered!!
Hence why I love vintage broadcast T/Ts....:)
Marco.
Beobloke
30-11-2020, 10:36
I think what I hate most about the looks of B&O gear is their turntables, with their skinny, tinny looking platters/horrible 'shiny plastic' looking mats and lightweight arms, as they're the complete antithesis of how I like T/Ts to look, and that's PURPOSEFUL/high-mass, rather 'soberly' styled, built like a brick shithouse and MASSIVELY over-engineered!!
Hence why I love vintage broadcast T/Ts....:)
Marco.
I’m busy for the rest of the morning babysitting a 55kW PSU soak test but I’m not going to let that go un-responded to! ;)
However, I heartily approve of the new cassette deck - very nice indeed!
Beobloke
30-11-2020, 10:38
I have no idea of the SQ, but I do like the looks of the B&O 1900:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5ToAAOSwTyhfU6oL/s-l1600.jpg
(Totally unrelated BTW - but I really dislike the use of 'Copperplate' or 'Italic' lettering on any audio gear.)
No, Barry, the one you want is the Beocord 2400. Almost identical to the 1900 externally but better inside.
However, far more importantly than any of this is that the Beocord 2400’s gorgeous big meters work on both record and playback - the 1900’s only work on record, which is just WRONG!!
I’m busy for the rest of the morning babysitting a 55kW PSU soak test but I’m not going to let that go un-responded to! ;)
Lol - when I wrote that I was thinking of you!:D:D:eyebrows:;)
However, I do mean what I said, lol... Ultimately, it's a personal taste thing:)
However, I heartily approve of the new cassette deck - very nice indeed!
Lol - cheers... I'm loving it.
Marco.
Beobloke
30-11-2020, 13:03
Right, I'm out of the lab and the PSU didn't go bang, which is good news...
It might actually surprise you to know, Marco, that I know what you mean about the arms on B&O turntables. They do look a bit spindly and weedy! However, they are that way for a reason, namely to minimise the effective mass that is seen by their proprietary cartridges, and it works well. Also, if you haven't heard a good one, you should try and to have a listen to a good one, one day as I think you'd not only be surprised, but would like it. As you often mention, you don't like the colder, clinical "hi-fi" sound, but a warmer, more mellifluous and musical sonic presentation, and this is what B&O does so well. I know you don't like heading south of the M42 but if you are ever passing Hampshire, you're welcome to clap your ears round my Beogram 8002/MMC2 - you might just enjoy it!
And anyway, I'm confident with my spindly B&O arms - I've no need to compensate! :D ;)
I'm also with you on the good old analogue VU meters on cassette decks, so It's a surprise to no-one more than me that I recently sold my Aiwa AD-6900 which, as you may know, has double needles, with peak and VU meters in the same housing. The trouble is that my recently acquired Yamaha KX-1200 was just a bit better than it, has remote control and, most importantly, has LED meters that I can see from across the room, unlike the Aiwa's VUs!
Still, my main cassette deck is still a B&O Beocord 8004 - lovely big LEDs and there ain't nothing spindly about it at all!
No, Barry, the one you want is the Beocord 2400. Almost identical to the 1900 externally but better inside.
However, far more importantly than any of this is that the Beocord 2400’s gorgeous big meters work on both record and playback - the 1900’s only work on record, which is just WRONG!!
OK, the 2400 it is then:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LEgAAOSwi9dfFcsI/s-l1600.jpg
The 1900 does come in for some criticism for it's internal construction.
It might actually surprise you to know, Marco, that I know what you mean about the arms on B&O turntables. They do look a bit spindly and weedy! However, they are that way for a reason, namely to minimise the effective mass that is seen by their proprietary cartridges, and it works well.
Lol, I know... Thing is, my approach to vinyl replay is all about MASS - and PLENTY of it, judiciously applied in the right way!;)
High-mass T/Ts and arms, combined with low-compliance/high-VTF cartridges, has always produced the best sound to my ears, so that's the way I'll always go.
Also, if you haven't heard a good one, you should try and to have a listen to a good one, one day as I think you'd not only be surprised, but would like it. As you often mention, you don't like the colder, clinical "hi-fi" sound, but a warmer, more mellifluous and musical sonic presentation, and this is what B&O does so well. I know you don't like heading south of the M42 but if you are ever passing Hampshire, you're welcome to clap your ears round my Beogram 8002/MMC2 - you might just enjoy it!
Nice one, thanks, and yes I appreciate that, and indeed I may well enjoy it. However, let's not lose sight of the fact that the discussion was revolved around LOOKS, not sonic performance. I didn't say that I hated the B&O SOUND... However, no matter how good the T/Ts sounded, I couldn't live with them because of their appearance:)
I'm also with you on the good old analogue VU meters on cassette decks, so It's a surprise to no-one more than me that I recently sold my Aiwa AD-6900 which, as you may know, has double needles, with peak and VU meters in the same housing. The trouble is that my recently acquired Yamaha KX-1200 was just a bit better than it, has remote control and, most importantly, has LED meters that I can see from across the room, unlike the Aiwa's VUs!
Lol... The thing is, I just think that VU meters are *SO* much sexier looking than LEDs (frankly there's no comparison), and also plenty accurate enough for my purposes. A professional recording engineer I ain't.
Ultimately, it's about what sounds good and is the most FUN to use!:cool:
Marco.
OK, the 2400 it is then:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LEgAAOSwi9dfFcsI/s-l1600.jpg
The 1900 does come in for some criticism for it's internal construction.
Yes it's nice, but about twice the size it needs to be!:doh:
I like gear that's well-built, sounds good, but also compact and easy to house.
Marco.
Beobloke
30-11-2020, 23:17
Yes it's nice, but about twice the size it needs to be!:doh:
I like gear that's well-built, sounds good, but also compact and easy to house.
Marco.
You want to try taking one apart and seeing just how much is crammed into it! :)
It is actually quite dinky. I’ll try and shoot some Beocord 2400/8004/Yammie KX-1200 comparative pics for you in the next day or two.
The Black Adder
01-12-2020, 12:33
The older B&O stuff was really well made. I had a CD7000 once, it was built like a tank. A very well designed thing and really reliable.
I think it was early 90's.
Not sure about the quality of the later stuff though.
I like the look of the Tandburg, Marco. It looks the biz. Is it really up there with a Nakamichi in terms to SQ?
if you want to swat that fly, Slap that stingin’ old school itch, Nakamichi or go home?
Just saying Amigo,
Yesterday’s Tech, Nak was the best?
Have an old skool Dolby S here, and a good one, in the scheme of things it ain’t all that?
YouTube music videos consistently better.
QUOTE=Marco;1239168]Yes it's nice, but about twice the size it needs to be!:doh:
I like gear that's well-built, sounds good, but also compact and easy to house.
Marco.[/QUOTE]
I like the look of the Tandburg, Marco. It looks the biz. Is it really up there with a Nakamichi in terms to SQ?
Yup, defo - even unserviced! It's arguably the best tape deck I've owned. Using quality NOS chrome tape, and with painstaking attention to detail, in terms of adjustment with recording levels, squeezing the last nth degree out of the tape before saturation point, I'd say the results are 85% as good as the source CD, played on my Sony - and I know I can eke out more!
The Tandberg has a very open and musical presentation, good bass too, and an 'effortlessly involving' way of reproducing all forms of music, such as that you're not tempted to 'analyse' it for faults, simply bask in its seductive and enveloping sound. Defo one of my best buys this year, and also a lovely thing to look at:cool:
Marco.
if you want to swat that fly, Slap that stingin’ old school itch, Nakamichi or go home?
Just saying Amigo,
Yesterday’s Tech, Nak was the best?
Have an old skool Dolby S here, and a good one, in the scheme of things it ain’t all that?
YouTube music videos consistently better.
Yo dude,
That was a bit of a garbled brain fart, lol!:scratch::D
Anyway, yes the Tandberg, to my ears, is sonically superior to any Nakamichi I've owned - at the moment not massively so, but it's still significant and easily heard.
Yeah, I noticed you've got a tape deck (Sony, is it?) Have you tried it with quality (unopened) NOS tapes [BASF, Maxell, etc], recording without Dolby NR, and with the EQ set for Chrome? Then also playback without Dolby, and EQ set for chrome.
The formulation used on the best NOS blank tapes is much superior to anything, say, post 1992, and makes a BIG difference to the results obtained. Also, getting as much LEVEL onto the tape as possible, to reduce noise and maximise dynamic range, is hugely important - and in that respect some makes of tape can handle more before saturation.
If you put enough effort in, as outlined above, to making good recordings from digital or vinyl sources from your own system (forget all about pre-recorded shite), the playback results can be very good indeed!:cool:
Marco.
Got a nice wee upgrade with the Tandberg today... As you can see from the pic below, there are two available outputs for playback: one DIN connection and one set of phonos, located next to the phono inputs for recording:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/BAxCol.jpg
So I thought I'd try the DIN socket output, to see if it sounded any better than the phonos, and therefore ordered the cables below to facilitate that:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/Tgtu1m.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/dHSlTV.jpg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HQ-2-Phono-RCA-to-Bang-Olufsen-B-O-Naim-Quad-5-Pin-Din-Lead-Cable-1-2m/252229020446?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
...and the answer is yes it does! Bit more detail, crispness and better separation of voices and instruments, so that they 'hang' more in free space between the speakers. Not a massive upgrade, but very worthwhile nonetheless, considering the inexpensive nature of the cables. I do like the sound of a lot of Van Damme stuff:)
Anyway, a good result!
Marco.
The Black Adder
03-12-2020, 20:28
Uh? Tascam? or Tandberg?
Lol - my mistook... Now changed!:D
Marco.
I find that hard to believe. The DIN sockets and the phono sockets will be wired in parallel. Have you compared Van Damme XKE DIN to RCA cables with Van Damme XKE RCA to RCA cables?
Shovel_Knight
03-12-2020, 21:03
The DIN sockets and the phono sockets will be wired in parallel.
Not necessarily so, many tape decks provide different output levels via DIN vs RCA which means the output configuration is different.
Not necessarily so, many tape decks provide different output levels via DIN vs RCA which means the output configuration is different.
Pavel has it!
From the manual: "The AMPLIFIER/RADIO socket [which is what's marked above the DIN socket] is more sensitive than the PHONO sockets, and can therefore be used for amplifiers or radios with low-level signals."
And you can clearly hear the difference, as described!:)
Marco.
You could just use the RCA sockets and turn the volume up a little bit though.
Yeah sure, and I have, but the DIN sounds better (at the same volume position), possibly because, as Pavel says, the output configuration is different. I also consider that DIN plugs and sockets are superior to phonos, so that could also be a factor, even though it's only happening at the source end:)
Marco.
Pavel has it!
From the manual: "The AMPLIFIER/RADIO socket [which is what's marked above the DIN socket] is more sensitive than the PHONO sockets, and can therefore be used for amplifiers or radios with low-level signals."
And you can clearly hear the difference, as described!:)
Marco.
Fair enough. Both of my Naks have dual DIN and RCA connections, but I think the sensitivity is the same for either, both record and replay.
Yeah, the difference isn't massive, Barry, as one would expect. The improvement using the DIN connection is fairly subtle, but definitely noticeable:)
Does anyone have any mics using cables with DIN connectors they want to get rid of? The Tandberg has two mic inputs... I have a fun idea I'd like to try!:eyebrows:
Marco.
The Black Adder
11-12-2020, 11:42
I dug out some Philips ECG 6188 valves just now. I must admit, I'm really enjoying them.
I've had them for donkeys and never thought to use them as I've had Sylvanias in since I bought the Preamp. I do remember them costing me something like £50 for a matched pair back in 2009 or something.
Nice space, detail, great bass, not over blown. Maybe a little forward lean but nothing intrusive.
Recommended.
What are ECG 6188 valves, Jo? Never heard of them! Where do they go in your Croft? There are no such valves in mine:hmm:
Marco.
Just a small update... The Tandberg is currently at the home of an ex-Tandberg engineer, and getting a full service, possibly including new heads fitted. The chap in question used to work at the Tandberg headquarters in Oslo, and bought up all the spare parts when the company went bust in 1983...
He assures me that the deck will be returned to performing to 'A1' standard, plus he's biasing the deck to optimise my favourite NOS tapes :)
So can't wait for that!:cool:
Marco.
I've just received the engineer's report for the Tandberg (seems that the heads might be ok after all, but not yet confirmed):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/Bhp3tH.png
Should be money well spent!:cool:
Marco.
pretty reasonable price for all that.
Yeah, that's what I thought, and at least I know when it comes back it'll bee tip-top!:cool:
Marco.
I bet he can disassemble and assemble one blindfold. Does he do all Tandberg repairs or is it just the tape decks?
Everything Tandberg, dude. He's an older chap and knows his shit inside out... You know the type?:)
Marco.
Check out this bruiser https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tandberg-Tcd-340A-cassette-deck-has-intermittent-fault-was-fully-serviced/233808968003?hash=item367019b943:g:NVQAAOSwCxtfysw o
The Black Adder
12-12-2020, 06:54
What are ECG 6188 valves, Jo? Never heard of them! Where do they go in your Croft? There are no such valves in mine:hmm:
Marco.
Hi Marco.
They are a specially designed and selected military version of the 6SL7 as far as I remember. They really are a very nice valve. I totally recommend finding a pair.
The Black Adder
12-12-2020, 06:56
The Tandberg sounds like it's with the best person to get it groovin' again. I was tempted with a Nak the other week but I let it slide.
Check out this bruiser https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tandberg-Tcd-340A-cassette-deck-has-intermittent-fault-was-fully-serviced/233808968003?hash=item367019b943:g:NVQAAOSwCxtfysw o
Yeah, that's a belter... The 'big brother' 3-head version of mine. It'd have gone for much more if it hadn't had that fault - although no doubt nothing a good engineer, such as Chris, couldn't fix!:cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco.
They are a specially designed and selected military version of the 6SL7 as far as I remember. They really are a very nice valve. I totally recommend finding a pair.
Interesting... That's a new one on me, and I thought I'd tried every type of 6SL7 invented!:D
I'll do some research into them.
Marco.
mazen0822
12-12-2020, 09:08
Well, the cartridge and SUT landed on Wednesday and I've been really enjoying both since! The 103GL in particular is everything I'd hoped it would be, and sounds simply STUNNING!:eek::wow:
More on that later, including a review of my full impressions... In the meantime. some pics of her in my Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Kondo SL-115 solid-silver headshell leads, and in situ on my T/T, after having just fitted it with the Houdini:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/R0Jn8q.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jAyeSW.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/cJ9UFC.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/IROHZS.jpg
New Funk Firm APM Achromat (double-layered with a glass base, and which retails for £170). More on that in the forthcoming separate review):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/ajjbk7.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/iFuwmN.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/ATflzO.jpg
More to follow shortly!:cool:
Marco.
how do you like the Funk Firm APM Achromat. thinking of going down that road.
Hi Mazen,
Best mat I've ever used on the Technics, especially combined with the Houdini (as both items 'pull together', in terms of creating optimal isolation of the negative effects impeding accurate vinyl replay), resulting in maximum information retrieval and minimal coloration - buy with confidence!:)
Marco.
Your platter is starting to look like mine now.
It is about time you saw the light.... :lol:
Ha.... Wait until I change the Isonoe feet for Boings!:D
Marco.
Ha.... Wait until I change the Isonoe feet for Boings!:D
Marco.
:eek:
And then add a Spin bearing.....
Lol - nope... Not that it wouldn't be good, but simply that MN one is fixed to a base plate, bonded with 'no nails', which isn't going anywhere- ever!
I also rate the MN bearing highly and wouldn't change it anyway, ditto the ETP platter. For me it's about cherry-picking the best 'bits' from a variety of different sources and combining them into one, in order to get the 'best of all worlds':)
That said, I'd happily use anything that Arthur made for a turntable, and be confident it would perform to the highest standard, as he really is a vinyl guru... The Techy is sounding simply stunning - best it ever has, with the addition of the APM and Houdini, and the awesome sounding Denon DL-103GL, which is arguably the best 103 I've ever heard.
I'd honestly put this T/T up against ANYTHING at ANY price and expect it never to be disgraced.
Marco.
Surely the Aachromat APM kind of negates the need for an expensive platter?
My Achromat is bonded to my platter, so trying an APM version will not be easy.
Nah, not in my experience. The platter does something different to the mat, especially in terms of adding rotational mass, which on a D/D turntable is desirable. If I just had the original Techy platter on there, with the APM, it would undoubtedly sound worse.
Marco.
mazen0822
12-12-2020, 21:54
I thought the APM was used with the technics platter and went on top of it. does it actually replace the platter completely? if you could post some pics of the APM it would be a great help if you don't mind.
As far as I'm aware it's not designed to replace the platter completely; it's simply an improved version of the existing Achromat, with a glass base, which provides better isolation. And as I've said, I don't have a Technics platter.
I'll see if I can post a pic of the mat tomorrow:)
Marco.
I spoke to Matt of the Funk firm, and he tells me it is primarily designed to fit the Technics platter (which you don’t have ;)) to stop the platter ring.
APM is available to buy in the store but currently on back order. It is a technics mat with a glass backing to cure ringing platter on one of the new models (not sure which )? It will go up with all information when stocks replenish in new year. (It’s on the long list)
Indeed, yes, primarily, but it was also recommended to me as an upgrade for the stock Achromat, which would also optimise the effect of the Houdini - and I can confirm that both are true!:)
Btw, mine is designed to fit the surface of a normal platter. In any case, the APM is a no-brainer upgrade on the stock achromat, for ALL turntables, if you can accommodate the extra 'thickness' and make the necessary adjustments to VTA.
I'll take some pics later:cool:
Marco.
Hence the use of the word “primarily”.
I don’t need one (I don’t think) on my Strata platter.
Well, if you use an Achromat [yes/no?] then the APM will defo be an upgrade, no matter which platter it's sat on. You can never have too much effective isolation:)
Marco.
I am not 100% sure that an achromat with a glass back will be any different to an achromat bonded to a glass platter, if I am honest.
Taking the old one off will not be easy, and hard to replace as I have heard they are discontinuing the 5mm version.
Ah if you've bonded it that's different, then leave well alone:)
Marco.
In other news, I've ordered these Jantzen caps, for the Celestions, to replace the original electrolytics: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jantzen-cross-cap-capacitors.html
They were the only 'sanely priced' ones I could find in 12uF, and cheap as chips! Should do the job nicely, in combination with the Jupiter Copper Foils:)
I've also ordered some of this Jantzen speaker cable, to rewire the internals [nothing fancy, but it'll do the job and be a million times better than what's in there now]: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/006-0120-jantzen-speaker-cable-2x13awg.html
Full report on the results when both have been fitted!:cool:
Marco.
Final work carried out on the Tandberg, which has come to £160, now including new heads and fully calibrated for the tapes of my choice:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/6jGp3f.png
And it's now ready for collection!:carrot::cool:
Marco.
Check out this bruiser https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tandberg-Tcd-340A-cassette-deck-has-intermittent-fault-was-fully-serviced/233808968003?hash=item367019b943:g:NVQAAOSwCxtfysw o
Guess what? Chris (the engineer) has upgraded the playback heads on my deck to ones from the 440, which have a flatter and more extended frequency response, see here (very similar to the above): https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tandberg-tcd-440-cassette-deck-silver-152713090
Result!:yay:
Marco.
Guess what? Chris (the engineer) has upgraded the playback heads on my deck to ones from the 440, which have a flatter and more extended frequency response, see here (very similar to the above): https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tandberg-tcd-440-cassette-deck-silver-152713090
Result!:yay:
Marco.
Even though I don't get the logic of having a tape deck these days I'm still interested to hear how this thing sounds now it's better than new.
Lol - I know what you mean. so am I. He said it's one of the best examples he's worked on [testament to it having been looked after and only one owner from new], and sounds fantastic now, after essentially being stripped down and rebuilt!
As you can imagine, being one of Tandberg's original EEs, he knows these machines inside out. He's in his mid-60s and proper old school:)
Marco.
You have to decide what the first album you tape on it is going to be.
Jeez, with around 3000 CDs and 4000 LPs, that's gonna be a tough one!:D
Some Dan? You know I'm a big fan:eyebrows: Well, I have all of their albums of vinyl... It'll be interesting though how close I can get the tape to sound like the original:)
Do you still have something to play tapes on? I could send you a mix, lol... Del still has the Walkman she used in college, and it works perfectly!
Marco.
might get good results if its bang on as it should be. alas cassette is limited by the tape size but still...
Yups.... Thing is, I was getting more than acceptably good results before, so goodness knows what it'll be capable of now...
Will be nice to have it to play with over Christmas:)
Marco.
Do you still have something to play tapes on? I could send you a mix, lol... Del still has the Walkman she used in college, and it works perfectly!
Marco.
I only have a Realistic personal cassette player (with autoreverse!). I gave away my Sony tape deck in about 2002.
Auto-reverse, by jove!:respect:
Does it still work, i.e. play tapes - when was the last time you tried it?:)
Marco.
I think I last used it about 15 years ago, just to see if it worked and it did. I bought it in about 1987 from Tandy in Lord Street, Liverpool (don't look for it etc).
It was about £70 so a lot of money back then. In typical Tandy style it didn't come with headphones, you had to buy them separately.
Practically never used it. I bet it doesn't have even 20 hours on the heads.
Lol - the Realistic brand was quality, and represented quite a few products. Some of the speakers were also pretty good. So do you have some headphones you can plug into it? If so, I'll make you up a couple of tapes, just for a larf!:D
Btw, do you remember Beaver Hi-Fi in Liverpool? I used to go there in the early-to-mid 2000s. Del's mum knew the owners.
Marco.
Lol - the Realistic brand was quality, and represented quite a few products. Some of the speakers were also pretty good. So do you have some headphones you can plug into it? If so, I'll make you up a couple of tapes, just for a larf!:D
Btw, do you remember Beaver Hi-Fi in Liverpool? I used to go there in the early-to-mid 2000s. Del's mum knew the owners.
Marco.
The only headphones I have is the headset I use for phone calls. It's USB so not compatible.
I do recall Beaver Radio, I think they changed it to Beaver Hi-fi in the 1980s sometime. Nearly bought my first system there but they were too pricey. Went to Richer Sounds instead.
I did hear a very good system demoed there once, with the B&W Matrix floorstanders and I think JVC electronics. That had big effect on my fragile hi-fi mind.
Yeah, that's the place. They used to sell some good kit and the staff were always knowledgeable - a proper old school dealership:)
If you want, I'll send you a pair of headphones, along with the tapes (say of some Dan/Zep/ZZ Top albums, and a bit Sinatra thrown in for good measure), and you can relive the 80s:D
Marco.
It's a kind offer but you know what will happen if you do that.
walpurgis
19-12-2020, 09:58
you can relive the 80s:D
Marco.
What a horrible thought! :eek:
Everything that started going wrong in the seventies, evolved and was perpetuated through the eighties. The awful clothes, crappy music, gross materialism, you name it!
I wasn't much for 1980s music at the time but now it sounds like genius compared to the current efforts.
The fashions were bad though, I give you that.
walpurgis
19-12-2020, 10:54
I wasn't much for 1980s music at the time but now it sounds like genius compared to the current efforts.
True.
anthonyTD
19-12-2020, 16:14
Everything changed from 1989 on, up until then, there was still a lot of good music, and talented musicians around!
All IMO :)
It's a kind offer but you know what will happen if you do that.
Lol - no, enlighten me?:D
Marco.
Beobloke
19-12-2020, 19:38
What a horrible thought! :eek:
Everything that started going wrong in the seventies, evolved and was perpetuated through the eighties. The awful clothes, crappy music, gross materialism, you name it!
Nooo! The eighties was the best generation for music IMHO (and no, I’m not talking about the chart rubbish).
Also, what’s not to love about a Lamborghini Countach or a Ferrari Testarossa, or a big fat mobile phone, or a Filofax or one of those new-fangled “Compact Disc” players?
And as far as fashion goes, the sight of a 1980s power-dressed business woman still reduces me to a dribbling, gibbering idiot.
I may possibly be over-sharing here...
Not to mention the sexist ad s in hi fi mags lol
Lol - no, enlighten me?:D
Marco.
I'll end up buying a proper tape deck.
:lolsign:
And that would be a bad thing, why?:D
Anyway, I collected it today, and it sounded mighty fine in the engineer's test system. Interesting too, to see his 'lab' and how he goes about his business, which was fascinating - a real perfectionist!
TBH, now that he's 'breathed on it', as it were, it's simply made it into a more desirable thing and added to the overall pride of ownership:cool:
Marco.
It's a temptation I've been trying to avoid for a long time, made easier as I don't have any tapes to play on one.
Lol - that would be easily enough sorted:eyebrows:
Hey, if would be blast making up some mad compilations for each other - swapping tapes, just like old times:D
Marco.
lol stop it, you got me looking at tape decks now.
Always fancied a Technics RS-BX707 https://www.cassettedeck.org/technics/rs-bx707/ they seem to be a reasonable price, must be still under the radar.
Lol - that would be easily enough sorted:eyebrows:
Hey, if would be blast making up some mad compilations for each other - swapping tapes, just like old times:D
Marco.
I have a box somewhere here containing over 200 tapes I recorded in the '80s and '90s. Still have a couple of Naks also doing nothing.
Lol - I can sense the beginnings of a tape club! Woo-hoo...
Marco.
This is the deck mine is now using the heads from:
https://youtu.be/91ouMwBF1pg
Pretty good track that!:)
Marco.
Audio Al
23-12-2020, 01:16
Lol - I can sense the beginnings of a tape club! Woo-hoo...
Marco.
Mr Marco I suggested this when the R2R section was added and the powers to be said no :scratch:
Surley tape is tape inc 8 track :D
Yeah, I don't know why that was mate, probably because not many folks use cassette tape, or have much love for it, compared with R2R, but I'm sure I can help change that!;)
Anyway, daftee, is that you back now? You've been missed!!:)
Marco.
Don't keep it yourself Marco :) what was the track and who are the group :scratch:
Don't keep it yourself Marco :) what was the track and who are the group :scratch:
Musica - 'Keep Your Mind On Me'
Don't keep it yourself Marco :) what was the track and who are the group :scratch:
No specific tracks yet, Andy. Mixes still to be made! As for a group, it's anyone with a cassette deck:)
Marco.
Filterlab
23-12-2020, 13:07
I too have a cassette deck, a Technics TRS something-or-other, which I bought to recover some tracks from old tapes and convert them to digital for a friend.
Let’s just say that each recording has to go through my remastering suite to bring it up to anything like a modern standard. Fun to play with though. I’d forgotten how many hours I used to spend rewinding tapes. :lol:
Audio Al
23-12-2020, 13:24
I too have a cassette deck, a Technics TRS something-or-other, which I bought to recover some tracks from old tapes and convert them to digital for a friend.
Let’s just say that each recording has to go through my remastering suite to bring it up to anything like a modern standard. Fun to play with though. I’d forgotten how many hours I used to spend rewinding tapes. :lol:
A cassette deck :scratch: come on you need to try harder than that :D
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