The Marco-boy main system, as of August 2020 [Archive] - Page 2

Macca

14-09-2020, 13:59

Lol - I can hear through the digital transcription and still readily identify the sonic characteristics of the vinyl source, just like I do with the 'needledrops' I produce - not a problem - and that lovely 'bouncy' bass is defo a characteristic of both the Shure cartridge used and the EMT turntable and arm it was on:)

If the music had been reproduced via a digital source, the bass wouldn't have sounded like that. Yes, the digital process can faithfully reproduce the qualities of the analogue source, but not PUT them there in the first place - that's my point!
.

Oh yes, quite agree. Although I wonder if it could be replicated with EQ?

I've got a couple of Stanton 500s that do a similar thing, big, rich bouncy bass that's ideal for that old chart stuff. But just a bit too crude if you want to listen to something more 'delicate.'

Having said that I just had a look for them and they aren't where I thought they were, so maybe I gave them away. I still have a 6881EEE which is sort of a halfway house between big and bouncy and detailed and delicate.

Marco

14-09-2020, 14:34

Oh yes, quite agree. Although I wonder if it could be replicated with EQ?

I've got a couple of Stanton 500s that do a similar thing, big, rich bouncy bass that's ideal for that old chart stuff. But just a bit too crude if you want to listen to something more 'delicate.'

Having said that I just had a look for them and they aren't where I thought they were, so maybe I gave them away. I still have a 6881EEE which is sort of a halfway house between big and bouncy and detailed and delicate.

Indeed... Although the difference with the Shure SC35C is the high-quality of the diamond profile on its NOS stylus, which allows it to do the 'bass boogie' thang and also delicacy and finesse.

I was playing a symphony recording with it last night, from Saint-Saëns, recorded in 1968, on the Decca black label [mint original copy], and it sounded stunning - every subtle musical detail and nuance was present and correct, and when the crescendos hit, it nearly blew me off my seat, such was the power and authority of the lower registers!!:eek:

Shame you can't find your Stanton (500AL). If you do, and it's a gold-bodied one with a NOS stylus, let me know and I'll buy it from you, as current production ones sound nothing like it.

Marco.

Macca

14-09-2020, 14:50

Actually thinking about it they may have been 680s not 500s. :doh:

The 681EEE is more like what you are describing with the Shure.

Marco

14-09-2020, 15:02

that juicy, full bodied sound comes through regardless of playback system I think. It just fills the frequency range very, very nicely. I think sometimes (and I've been guilty of this myself on occasion) people are just listening out for cues and nuances which they know 'should' jump out of the mix and impress them. Maybe they've heard the track on playback systems which (over) emphasizes a certain sound/instrument/voice and any which don't reproduce what they expect to hear are deemed inferior.

Yup, the latter is my main criticism with how most modern cartridges are 'voiced', which as you say, is to emphasise the 'hi-fi aspects' of the sound, often at the expense of a realistic portrayal of the music's natural tonal and timbre qualities. The best vintage cartridges (and also professional broadcast ones, such as the SC35C) don't do that, and instead get that right!

That's why I'm no longer interested in any modern cartridge that isn't 'voiced' to faithfully reproduce the above, as ultimately that's what is important to me and guarantees musical satisfaction from my vinyl listening:)

Fact is if it boogies it boogies, I get more boogie factor with vinyl/analogue playback. The detail and transparency achieved using my digital components can be very enjoyable but swapping to my vinyl rig and playing the same song is (nearly) always no contest. To be honest I've never done a comparison of digital vs vinyl and thought 'oh there's some detail missing there from the vinyl', although technically likely true, the vinyl just has that bounce and boogie factor.

I've heard countless different types of digitally reproduced music, some at a very high standard, including that in my own system, but NONE I've heard so far produce the 'elastic bass' (boogie factor) you're referring to. For me, it's a trait intrinsic to vinyl replay (and not a coloration either, but simply something naturally present in the grooves of vinyl records) that digital, as good as it is (at its best), simply by its very nature, is unable to replicate.

Flashbacks of chucking a cassette in my dads Nakamichi (BX2?) I think it was (the twin head though, not the triple bad boy) and being consumed by its analogue 'tapey' sound. Slightly akin to an old skool 'loudness' button being on, everything just sounded a bit bigger an beefier.

Yeah, I know *exactly* what you mean!

I bought a Nakamichi BX-300E brand new in the late 80s [later upgraded to a DR-2], which was part of my early-20s bedroom system in my parents house, and used to use BASF Chromedioxid tape to record vinyl from my (then) Ariston RD-11S T/T, with Linn LV-V arm, fitted with an ADC magnesium headshell and Denon DL-103, through a Sondex S230 amp (MM phono stage)/Lentek MC head amp, and play the tapes not only on the Nak, but my uncle's superb Alpine car stereo system (in his Opel Manta, lol), and he was always shocked and stunned at how good it sounded!:D

He could never quite believe it was vinyl records he was listening to... There's defo a warmth, solidity and 'unfussy musicality' to the sound of compact cassette tape, done well, as long as you avoided playing the prerecorded shite sold back then, which invariably sounded dull and lifeless, primarily due to having the dynamics compressed by Dolby NR, during the production process [often together with insufficient recording levels/sub-optimal EQ], and also the poor quality of the mass-produced 'normal' tape used.

But if you had a top-notch vinyl or CD source and recorded it with quality chrome (or metal) tape, through any quality Jap tape deck of the day (without worn heads), got the levels and EQ spot on, and left Dolby NR off [a little tape hiss between tracks was nothing], then the SQ could be stunning! Used to have loads of fun doing that back in the day:cool:

Marco.

Marco

14-09-2020, 23:33

Ok, just a small update, regarding the loading plugs, which among possible others, Chris may be interested in...

I mentioned that I reckoned (thanks to Barry's earlier rough calculations) that adding 180pF of capacitance was probably the optimal figure in my system, but of course I currently only had access to either 150 or 200pF plugs (or higher).

However, I've discovered [via an email exchange with the manufacturer] that the short 'Y' adapter leads I was originally using contributed 70pF capacitance to whichever plugs I fitted. So... If I used the 'Red' 250pF plugs, a figure that represented the inclusion of 70pF from the partnering leads (and which I was told contained a 180pF resistor), then by not using the leads, just the brass jumpers, I would achieve the desired 180pF!:)

So that's what I've done... And the sound now is really STUNNING!:eek: Low bass seems subjectively deeper, with more gravitas, midrange airier and even more mellifluous, and the highs as pin-sharp and sparkly, as a very pin-sharp and sparkly thing, with no trace whatsoever of harshness or 'glare'.

Bloody hell, I'm genuinely shocked and stunned at how good my SC35C cartridge sounds now - it really has no right to sound THIS good!! Right, I'm off to spin a few more choons before bed, that is *if* I can drag myself away from my record collection!:D

Marco.

Barry

14-09-2020, 23:47

Lol - I can hear through the digital transcription and still readily identify the sonic characteristics of the vinyl source, just like I do with the 'needledrops' I produce - not a problem - and that lovely 'juicy' and full-bodied bass is defo a characteristic of both the Shure cartridge used and the EMT turntable and arm it was on:)

Marco.

:lol: A couple of years ago I bought an EMT TS-G headshell which came with a Shure SC35 cartridge (sans stylus). I gave the cartridge body to you Marco - did you dispense with it because it was made in Mexico?

There is an awful amount of unsubstantiated snobbery about such things. I'm sure Shure applied the same exacting standards and inspection to their products made in Mexico as they did to those made in Evanstone US. It's the same with Leica products - some of their lenses were made in Canada, and heaven forfend, in Portugal, all made, examined and tested to Leica's exacting standards, but some Leica snobs will have nothing to do with them: only those made in Wetzlar, Germany are good enough for them. :doh:

Marco

14-09-2020, 23:53

Marco

16-09-2020, 12:48

Another example of 'juicy' bass, only available on vinyl, again courtesy of a Shure SC35C:

https://youtu.be/6itoB376fBE

Fast-forward to 20.54 and check out that intro to the Fine Young Cannibals!:eek:

Oh yeah baby... Deep, meaty and chunkier than a Yorkie bar...!:D

Marco.

Marco

16-09-2020, 14:12

In other news, my NOS Goldring G820 has arrived safely from Holland, with its NOS (conical) stylus... However, I've also managed to source a NOS version of the, rare-as-hen's teeth, elliptical (bi-radial) version, which is purported to sound the dog's bollocks:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/8JECGg.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/PvbKGp.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/zDakHw.jpg

So... I'll be able to try both styli in the same generator and see how the sound compares - should be fun! And also comparing the G820 (fitted with either stylus) with both the Goldring G800 and also my Shure SC35C, so look out that one, folks!:cool:

Marco.

RobbieGong

16-09-2020, 15:22

Get in there Marco, you're defo having fun arnt you :)

WESTLOWER

16-09-2020, 16:47

Marco

16-09-2020, 18:03

Get in there Marco, you're defo having fun arnt you :)

Lol - defo, mate!:D

The Goldring G-820 has been mentioned before, and the description of its sound intrigued me: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29342-Goldring-G820-MM-Phono-Cartridge

That was with its conical stylus, so it'll be interesting hearing what the 'posher' one brings to the party... Also my Nagaoka crystal stabilizer arrived today, which I've been using with the 'Achromat+):

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/L1KX3T.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/IgIZIy.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/P0kkmR.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/kE2Cex.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/lKWQOy.jpg

It's got a strobe too, which is quite funny, but there's also a useful little ceramic ball, which when in motion, as the platter is spinning, circles the circumference of a small inner-circle [which you can see if you look closely], to indicate how level it is, and also the turntable:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/hHPHkf.jpg

Goldring fitted to a Sumiko headshell. It's the only one that would fit, as it's a very long, chunky cartridge:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/X8egVc.jpg

The Nagaoka stabiliser sounds ABSOLUTELY FAB with the 'Achromat+' Arthur sent me (as pictured above), which has a glass section forming the mat's base, for extra damping of vibrational energy. I need to try the Nagaoka crystal stabilizer now with its intended partner, which is the crystal mat, and see what that does!

Yup, lots of toys to play and have fun with... More later:cool:

Marco.

Marco

16-09-2020, 19:26

Reading this thread with great interest
I too have a Shure SC35 cartridge, USA made, original NOS stylus.

I enjoy the cartridge's boogie factor very much, It's a very enjoyable thing for the money.

It's only after swapping out to far more expensive price point cartridges
do I notice it's short comings, and in my system it does have some way to go.
Hence me following the tread as closely as possible to see where I can optimise, maybe i need to tweak!

Hi Adam,

How's it going, mate? You've been rather quiet lately, so hope you're well!:)

I know what you mean about far more expensive cartridges [by that I presume you're referring to MCs], but trust me when the Shure is loaded correctly (as has been discussed), and most importantly used in a high-mass arm, it's frankly amazing how good it sounds.

So in terms of tweaks, if you're not using it in a headshell that weighs at least 17g, then you won't be realising its potential, ditto with loading/capacitance tuning, plus some folks don't use the correct VTF, with the NOS stylus, and track it too light at 3g or so, which is wrong. The sweet spot is 4.5g.

That done, it'll show a clean pair of heels to most MMs, and in the particular areas where it excels (bass authority and 'fun factor'), many MCs! Plus it's none too shabby at everything else:D

I'd defo have another play with yours....

Marco.

Barry

16-09-2020, 21:20

Hi Barry,

No I haven't 'dispensed' with it at all. It's in my spares box, fitted with a latest production Shure stylus.

I intend on fitting it with one of the NOS Shure styli [undoubtedly the most important factor in generating the best sound] I recently bought on ebay, and then do a comparison between Evanston and 'Mexico vintage' bodies, in the same headshell...

Ideally you should use the exact same stylus in each body, and try each body under identical conditions. Will be interested to learn of the results: there are similar thoughts expressed by some concerning the brown and the black body Shure M55E.

I suspect you'll be interested in the outcome of that!:D

Marco.

P.S Well done, btw, for coming up with the correct added capacitance figure for the loading plugs (see my previous post):thumbsup:

Ideally you should use the exact same stylus in each body (not two separate samples of the stylus), and try each body under identical mounting conditions. Will be interested to learn of the results: there are similar thoughts expressed by some concerning the brown and the black body Shure M55E.

Marco

16-09-2020, 23:22

Yup, most certainly... I now have four NOS styli, for the SC35C, plus one of the latest (read as last) production ones, plus three 'bodies': two Evanston and one Mexico. I also have two AT-MG10 headshells, fitted with the same cartridge leads and mounting hardware.

Therefore, what I'll do is select one Evanston 'body' and NOS stylus, pop it in one of the above headshells, and fit the 'Mexico' to the other, and listen to the former first, then remove the stylus and fit it to the 'Mexico body' in the other shell, ensuring that all other variables are the same - and report the results!:cool:

Marco.

kininigin

21-09-2020, 13:05

Nightmare, mate. Wee tip, well two, actually... Firstly, always ensure that you tick the "Remember Me' box when signing onto the forum, as that way your posts won't time out, and secondly, just as an extra precaution, COPY your posts before you hit the 'Reply' button;)

Nice one on the SPU! Which one did you get?:)

Marco.

Sorry for the slow response, that thing called life has got in the way. You would think after being on here for 11yrs that i would know how to use it ha. Tips noted.

I went for a SPU #1E with a Phasemation SUT. I'm still evaluating it really although i do like it. I should be recieving the loading plugs today and i've sent Arthur an email about the Houdini as my curiosty got the better of me. Looks like i'll be getting the last one before official launch!

Are you still using your Houdini with the SC35C?

Marco

21-09-2020, 17:48

Wakefield Turntables

21-09-2020, 18:00

I'd have to agree with you with regards the Shure. I'm way behind when it comes to assessment due to having an absolute sod of a time trying to suss out a ground loop hum. I'm still working on it but I have to say that my configuration of the SC35C would need a cart costing north of £1K to beat it. I just need a break with this ground loop hum to get the best out of it.

kininigin

21-09-2020, 18:47

Lol - mate, dat's cool, glad to see you've got a life, that's the main thing!:D

That SPU should sound s-w-e-e-t...:peace:

Yup, still using the SC35C with a Houdini, and when my new Denon (finally) escapes the clutches of customs:rolleyes:, I'll be fitting one to that, too!:cool:

Tell you something... It'll have to go some to usurp the Shure as it *really* is sounding FAB!

Marco.

The SPU does sound sweet and was a bit of an impulse buy which i don't do very often at all.

I've recieved the loading plugs today and had a little play with them and atm i am settling on the green ones which add 150pF. Nice little upgrade! As you say tidys everthing up in a nice way.

I think i need to hear a Denon at some point in my life (and i'm sure i will). The Shure must be sounding very good with the little tweaks that have been done, especially the houdini! Can't wait to recieve mine and see what all the fuss is about :)

Marco

22-09-2020, 12:14

Hi Darren,

Glad you're enjoying the SPU and SUT - any chance of some pics?:)

Yeah, the loading plugs are great, although I've settled on a slightly different value from you, which is fine as our systems are different. However, if you're using the 'Y' adaptors, fitted with short cables, try these splitters instead, with the loading plugs you've got:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gold-Plated-RCA-Phono-Splitter-1-Plug-2-Sockets-Audio-Y-Adaptor-PAIR-PHOSPL01/151103810623?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I found that they notably improved matters sonically, especially as they remove the capacitance of the attached cables/wires [stated by the manufacturer as 70pF] and so allow you to utilise the actual electrical value of the resistors that the plugs are fitted with, without 'hearing' the effect of the partnering cables.

Trust me, I think you'll like it and probably arrive at using a different value;)

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 12:40

I'd been looking for a pair of these for AGES, but as they're pretty rare (plenty of later versions around in various condition, including the XRs I've currently got), so not had much opportunity to pull the trigger on an original pair with the 'picture frame' grilles... Then these popped up today on ebay, at a very good price and in rather nice condition:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/3lAHMI.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/WT7JQW.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/jmgcAm.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/2iddHT.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/hA3qHX.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/S0fi7A.jpg

Details here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Early-Picture-Frame-CELESTION-DITTON-15-Speakers-Fully-Working-Great-Condition/193674068708?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

There's a little bit of the veneer missing on one of them and a few scuffs here and there (as shown in the pics), which I'll be getting a cabinet maker to fix and also fully restore the wood on both, so they should look superb! And for £89.00 I can hardly complain. They'll be going in the lounge in the downstairs system, *if* they manage to usurp the modified XRs!;)

It'll certainly be interesting comparing them, as they use totally different drivers... The earliest versions like these were much better quality. Full report to follow when they arrive, hopefully before the weekend!:cool:

Marco.

AJSki2fly

22-09-2020, 12:59

They do look in extremely good condition, a bit of a bargain, a friend had a pair and they did sound pretty good in his system, but that was many moons ago.

Lawrence001

22-09-2020, 13:02

Did look into those a while ago but I think the tweeters don't reach up to the highest frequencies and so I thought the ones with the supertweeter would be better.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

struth

22-09-2020, 13:15

Good speaks the originals. Should go nicely in the livingroom

Marco

22-09-2020, 14:19

They do look in extremely good condition, a bit of a bargain, a friend had a pair and they did sound pretty good in his system, but that was many moons ago.

Cheers, Adrian. That's exactly what I thought! And of course at that price it leaves a little room for spending on restoring them to near-mint condition, and *possibly* a re-cap;)

But I'm wary of adversely disturbing the voicing of these originals, plus nothing will be done until I have good listen to them over an extended period and get used to what they do!:cool:

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 14:21

Did look into those a while ago but I think the tweeters don't reach up to the highest frequencies and so I thought the ones with the supertweeter would be better.

I also considered that and will assess it when comparing them to the later XRs, which have also been re-capped (and have a lovely open and extended top-end), so if anything will show that up, it'll be those!:)

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 14:25

Good speaks the originals. Should go nicely in the livingroom

Cheers, mate. Yeah, just the type of 'retro look' that we love, and which will suit the room! Aside from the highly regarded HF1300 tweeters (top-end roll off aside), the mid/bass and ABR units have cast-alloy chassis and a more heavy-duty construction overall.

What vintage do you think these are - mid 60s?

Marco.

struth

22-09-2020, 14:39

they came out in 66 so from then onward

Lawrence001

22-09-2020, 15:28

I also considered that and will assess it when comparing them to the later XRs, which have also been re-capped (and have a lovely open and extended top-end), so if anything will show that up, it'll be those!:)

Marco.Maybe a rare example of a situation where external (so called) supertweeters will actually improve the sound (rather than just increase the HF response).

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

Marco

22-09-2020, 15:43

they came out in 66 so from then onward

Ah I see, thanks. Wasn't sure when they came out... So they're potentially as old as me!:D

Marco.

walpurgis

22-09-2020, 19:27

Barry

22-09-2020, 19:50

Marco

22-09-2020, 19:55

Treble output cuts off completely above just over 13kHz, not that you'd probably notice, most folk don't. I believe that's why the tweeter was called the HF1300. I've had four or five pairs over the years. Your Celestion badges are missing by the way, you'll find some on ebay if you're fussed Marco.

Indeed on all counts, Geoff. What should the original badges look like on these early models - could you link me to some?:)

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 20:03

I was thinking of getting a pair of Ditton 15s, back in 1968. In the end though, I built a pair of Wharfedale-designed distributed port speakers using the Wharfedale RS8/DD driver.

(Admire the neat and tidy filing of the Hi-Fi mags.)

Yup, I spoke to the chap earlier. He was aware of AoS and said, I quote "It's the more well-respected forum out of the three main ones, pfm and WW". Well, I wouldn't know that, but that's obviously his opinion and nice to know:)

He runs this small family business, which has some nice stuff: https://www.hifihangar.co.uk/

Check out their ebay shop shown on the link. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again, as their attention to detail is excellent:cool:

Marco.

Barry

22-09-2020, 20:08

Some nice stuff for sale there.

I take it you have a copy of the 'Tannoy Story'?

walpurgis

22-09-2020, 20:16

He runs this small family business, which has some nice stuff: https://www.hifihangar.co.uk/

Marco.

That's Steve. I've met him, he's a decent bloke and well liked by his customers.

Marco

22-09-2020, 20:16

Yes you'll not be surprised that I bought a copy of that, too:D

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 20:24

That's Steve. I've met him, he's a decent bloke and well liked by his customers.

Cool. He seems like a nice guy, Geoff. Did you see my question about the badges? Strangely, all the ones I've seen so far don't have badges on the grilles, such as this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-Vintage-Celestion-Ditton-15-speaker-lot-2/283453097158

Or this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-X-CELESTION-DITTON-15-VINTAGE-HI-FI-SYSTEM-USE-BOOKSHELF-LOUDSPEAKER-TESTED/193632513282

Are you sure that the very early ones had badges?:)

Marco.

walpurgis

22-09-2020, 20:27

What should the original badges look like on these early models - could you link me to some?:)

Marco.

I've had a look around, but can't find a clear image. I wouldn't mind betting we have a member with some knocking about. I used to have some, but they're long gone as far as I can recall.

Marco

22-09-2020, 20:29

See my last post:)

Marco.

walpurgis

22-09-2020, 20:34

Bingo! This is one of a pair of Ditton 15's I refurbished a few years ago.

https://i.imgur.com/yVJBU6E.png

Marco

22-09-2020, 20:41

Ah gotcha!:)

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 20:47

Now just need to find some, lol...

Marco.

Marco

22-09-2020, 23:14

A later pair sounding pretty fine here:

https://youtu.be/2O5OL6ZUp1U

:cool:

Marco.

Marco

23-09-2020, 16:48

Ok some toys have arrived and more on their way! :eyebrows:

My new valve headphone amp arrived this morning from China:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/jO1bUl.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/LrzSj8.jpg

Sounds fab, especially once being allowed to warm up and burn in a bit! It has a very punchy, dynamic, open and airy sound, with plenty of welly at the low-end and works really well with my modern versions of Koss PRO-4AAA headphones [more on that in a mo], shown below:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/HAifVX.jpg

Once I've got used to the headphone amp I intend on tweaking it a bit, NOS valve fitted, plus some cap/resistor upgrades and a better volume pot. I had thought of putting a stepped attenuator in, but unfortunately there isn't room on the circuit board, so will look to fitting the best one available that will fit in the required space.

It's excellent in stock form, but I just want to turn it into a small project and see how far I can take it, given that it only cost me £98!:cool:

Ok, headphones.... Since I've got a new headphone amp, I also thought about a headphone upgrade. Now I primarily love high-quality vintage headphones, as much like speakers, the best ones have a 'sound'/tonal richness and musicality all of their own, and so thought 'what if I could find a minty pair of original Koss PRO-4AAAs at a good price?':hmm:

Well I did, and so today bought these beauts:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/p3MdeM.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/iMIXzw.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/Lkxe8Y.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/L5eyiB.jpg[

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/vGPWUd.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/wTeqH7.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/VsMaTp.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/1xIXdB.jpg

Details here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headphones-KOSS-PRO-4AAA-Vintage-Rare-Audiophile-Rero-High-End/233504441959?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Looks like they've hardly been used! So it'll be interesting comparing the originals, which you can see are much better made, with the modern reproductions:cool:

ATB,
Marco.

WullieD20

23-09-2020, 17:30

Lawrence001

23-09-2020, 18:17

Marco

23-09-2020, 22:09

Fabulous headphones.
Heard a pair many years ago at a show somewhere and just had to have a pair!
Still got them, although they don't get the same use that they used to. However, I've not heard many phones that surpass their capability as you described..... Soooooo enjoyable.

Cheers, Gordon. I haven't heard a pair of the originals, so am looking forward to hearing these, as I suspect they'll have the characteristics you describe, and a very rich, fluid and expansive sound, but also detailed and dynamic.

That's kind of how the modern versions sound, so I'm expecting more of the same with the originals, which were always highly regarded:)

Marco.

Marco

23-09-2020, 22:26

I had a pair of their old electrostatic headphones a few years ago. They were in many ways the best sounding pair of headphones I've heard. Smoother and fuller bodied but less airy and detailed than Stax, but an easy listen. I sold them due to comfort issues however.

I also recommend the Wharfedale or Leak planars they can be picked up cheap and sound great for their vintage.

I nearly bought these Wharfdale DD1s, as the design really intrigued me: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wharfdale-DD1-2-Way-4-Speaker-System-Professional-Series-Stereo-Headphones-1970s/303695747641

The bass is supposed to be stupendous!:eek:

But then I've always wanted an original pair of the Koss. For me they were always the definitive headphone company (the original American one) and had a unique sound of their own, which was always so unfailingly musical and transparent to the recording, giving music a vibrancy and realism that was always very addictive :)

Grado headphones are a bit like that too, and also possess that 'buttery' mellifluous midrange, but without the visceral low-end punch and attack of the Koss. I guess that I just love how American 'phones are voiced:cool:

Marco.

Lawrence001

23-09-2020, 23:00

I nearly bought these Wharfdale DD1s, as the design really intrigued me: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wharfdale-DD1-2-Way-4-Speaker-System-Professional-Series-Stereo-Headphones-1970s/303695747641

The bass is supposed to be stupendous!:eek:

But then I've always wanted an original pair of the Koss. For me they were always the definitive headphone company (the original American one) and had a unique sound of their own, which was always so unfailingly musical and transparent to the recording, giving music a vibrancy and realism that was always very addictive :)

Grado headphones are a bit like that too, and also possess that 'buttery' mellifluous midrange, but without the visceral low-end punch and attack of the Koss. I guess that I just love how American 'phones are voiced:cool:

Marco.I had a pair of those a few years ago, they were rather good actually. I think I added some damping inside and a bit of deadener to the plastic cups. They had a cap inside on the tweeter same as you'd find in a speaker IIRC.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

Marco

24-09-2020, 07:12

I know lol, there's certainly enough room in there for one!:D

I think it was essentially a clever design that just needed some further refinement... The Koss are being shipped today from Bulgaria, so shouldn't be long until they arrive - full review to follow:)

Marco.

Marco

24-09-2020, 15:58

The Celestion 15s have arrived, and after giving them a good clean inside under the grilles, removing years of dust and yellowy nicotine (yuk - this type of exercise always reminds me of just how filthy a habit smoking is:spew:), and quick polish of the exterior wood, which is in remarkably good condition, I fired them up....

All I can say is :wow::wowzer:

These sound quite different to the XRs, and not in any way inferior, that's for sure... Just laughably good for the £89.00 I paid!!:lol::mental::D

[A lot] more later!!

Marco.

Marco

24-09-2020, 17:52

In the meantime, some pics...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/MY5hT7.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/uOCgT5.jpg

Spot one of the Yamaha subs on the floor!;) Just showing how nice condition the wood is in:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/fgh9lZ.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/JdhDKC.jpg

And a few shots of the gear making up the downstairs system, with the Sony amp, Virgin V6 box,Beresford DAC, also the Paul Hynes PSU, for the RPi:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/3NXSW7.jpg

The other Ditton 15XR performing duties as a centre speaker (as part of the home-cinema system):

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/pzQt1m.jpg

Very pleased with these Ditton 15s! :cool:

Marco.

Macca

24-09-2020, 18:05

They look pretty tidy. Andre's favourite Celestion IIRC

Roy S

24-09-2020, 18:19

Digging the 'Old Charm' cabinet.

Wakefield Turntables

24-09-2020, 20:12

I really must dig out my 15's and give them a spin sometime.

Marco

24-09-2020, 23:17

They look pretty tidy. Andre's favourite Celestion IIRC

I think his favs were the 33s and these, one of which I used to use as a centre speaker (forget the model number):

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/9zDSvT.jpg

But as far as the 15s go, yes he preferred the originals :)

These just sound lovely mate, stupidly good for £89... You'd need to put a zero on the end of that and head well up towards £1k to get the sort of sound these Ditton 15s are producing, for smallish stand-mount speakers.

Yup, they're superior to the XRs (even modified/upgraded as mine were) - simply because they use better quality drivers. The top end in particular of the HF1300 ultimately has more texture and clarity than the soft-dome units on the XRs, and even though the measured frequency response rolls off as it does, 'dull' they ain't!

There's a lovely 'crisp and sparkly' openness to their treble response, and the midrange is fabulous, making vocals sound rich and sonorous, but also unfailingly believable and lifelike. Bass hits harder and deeper too, than it does with the XRs, and it's also more rhythmic and tuneful with it.

The only thing I would say is I can still detect the telltale 'signature' of electrolytic caps, which imbue the presence region with a touch of hardness and a slight 'nasal' quality, which I know would disappear by fitting some quality polypropylene ones, such as I did to the XRs, but it's nothing major.

Dunno if the crossovers in these are the same, but once I get more used to their sound I'll investigate that area, and possibly also replace the speaker terminals with something better, as things have moved on rather drastically in that area!

I'm only getting away with using the rather flimsy stock ones, as I use Chord Sarsen speaker cable in this set-up, which is very thin (but good quality): https://www.hifix.co.uk/chord-sarsen-speaker-cable-per-metre

Anyway, off for another listen - I may be some time!:eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

24-09-2020, 23:25

Digging the 'Old Charm' cabinet.

Well spotted, Roy-boy! You like that stuff? It's very sturdily made (solid oak), and the traditional style suits the room. We have a fair bit of it:)

Marco.

Marco

24-09-2020, 23:34

I really must dig out my 15's and give them a spin sometime.

Yeah defo, Andy. You've got XRs though, haven't you? They're good, but the originals are better, IMO (as I've outlined). TBH, very rarely have I heard speakers get better with more modern incarnations of the same, as cost-cutting inevitably enters the equation (where at one time they just built stuff using the best of what they had available, regardless), and quality suffers accordingly.

The original Ditton 15s (these ones I'm using from the 60s) are from Celestion's 'golden era'... Here's an interesting link to read, outlining the history of the company: https://www.bygonetones.com/the-history-of-celestion.html

Sadly, most of these great British loudspeaker companies have long gone, or are simply trading under the brand name, but are now a shadow of their former selves., often now Chinese owned. I think the only ones left are Spendor and Harbeth, still doing things in the time-honoured tradition.

Marco.

Roy S

24-09-2020, 23:41

Well spotted, Roy-boy! You like that stuff? It's very sturdily made (solid oak), and the traditional style suits the room. We have a fair bit of it:)

Marco.

Yes, my telly & av gubbins sits on/in one.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50379973678_0bcfb5867f_o.jpg

Marco

24-09-2020, 23:56

Good stuff, matey... Now THAT is a TV!!:eek::eek::D

Marco.

Roy S

25-09-2020, 00:18

Only a 65 inch :D

Marco

25-09-2020, 00:20

Did you model it on your waistline?:lol:;)

Marco.

Roy S

25-09-2020, 00:39

Did you model it on your waistline?:lol:;)

Marco.

Never quite reached those dimensions in spite of my best efforts!

If I get much slimmer I'll disappear ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50380826556_139635ae26_o.jpg

Marco

25-09-2020, 08:19

I'd bang it:eek::bum:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

25-09-2020, 15:52

Yeah defo, Andy. You've got XRs though, haven't you? They're good, but the originals are better, IMO (as I've outlined). TBH, very rarely have I heard speakers get better with more modern incarnations of the same, as cost-cutting inevitably enters the equation (where at one time they just built stuff using the best of what they had available, regardless), and quality suffers accordingly.

The original Ditton 15s (these ones I'm using from the 60s) are from Celestion's 'golden era'... Here's an interesting link to read, outlining the history of the company: https://www.bygonetones.com/the-history-of-celestion.html

Sadly, most of these great British loudspeaker companies have long gone, or are simply trading under the brand name, but are now a shadow of their former selves., often now Chinese owned. I think the only ones left are Spendor and Harbeth, still doing things in the time-honoured tradition.

Marco.

I had a pair of 15XR's (two pairs in fact) then I went onto the original 15's many many moons ago, a slightly later version of yours but with the pressed metal surrounds on the drivers and the HF1300 tweeter. I also use a pair of Super Tweeters with mine and a few others mods, recap, rewire, new binding posts etc. I might be tempted to do some more modding at some point.

struth

25-09-2020, 15:54

Never quite reached those dimensions in spite of my best efforts!

If I get much slimmer I'll disappear ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50380826556_139635ae26_o.jpg

too much hair, and tits are too small :ner:

Marco

25-09-2020, 21:24

I had a pair of 15XR's (two pairs in fact) then I went onto the original 15's many many moons ago, a slightly later version of yours but with the pressed metal surrounds on the drivers and the HF1300 tweeter. I also use a pair of Super Tweeters with mine and a few others mods, recap, rewire, new binding posts etc. I might be tempted to do some more modding at some point.

Good stuff, Andy. With these early 15s I'm not going to rewire them, as I don't want to change their character too much. A cap upgrade, yes, if it works out. If not, I'll put the old ones back.

Sometimes with these old speakers, the 'voicing' (and subsequently) their musicality is achieved by them being the SUM of their parts, and so you can adversely disturb that (and their balance) by messing around too much. TBH, there's not a lot wrong with them in stock form. The worst part of their design, which was simply a sign of the times, is their rather flimsy (but well enough made) binding posts.

However, I've ordered some decent small spade-connectors, which will improve the connection over that offered simply by wrapping bare wire around the terminals, and if that sounds ok then I may leave them 'as is', as I'm using thin speaker cables, so don't need hefty terminals... Anyway, we'll see how it goes!:cool:

Marco.

Beobloke

25-09-2020, 22:58

Sadly, most of these great British loudspeaker companies have long gone, or are simply trading under the brand name, but are now a shadow of their former selves., often now Chinese owned. I think the only ones left are Spendor and Harbeth, still doing things in the time-honoured tradition.

Marco.

Hmmm, the likes of Proac, PMC, ATC, Acoustic Energy and even good old B&W might argue with that! ;)

Marco

26-09-2020, 08:16

Yes, but what I meant was making speakers in the 'BBC tradition', as in traditional standmount designs seen in the likes of Spendor's 'classic' range, SP1/2s, etc, and the whole of the Harbeth range, plus true timeless classics, such as the LS3/5a.

How much of that sort of stuff, and crucially *VOICED* as it once was, with the same sonic goals, is still currently being made?

Whereas at one time, you had Rogers, KEF, Wharfedale, among others mentioned, and yes Celestion making truly wonderful sounding examples of such, and which got the human voice *so* right - and it is precisely in that area where these original Ditton 15s shine:)

Nowadays, at least whenever I've heard examples purporting to be what I'm referring to, from the companies you mention, such as Proac, PMC or ATC, their voicing/sonic balance is TOTALLY different, and in my opinion nowhere near as natural sounding or musically accurate. It's more 'hi-fi' than music.

In my view, we've lost our way, in that respect, in terms of designing speakers that, above all else, sound MUSICAL, rather than simply 'sonically impressive'.

Marco.

Marco

26-09-2020, 17:33

Sometimes with these old speakers, the 'voicing' (and subsequently) their musicality is achieved by them being the SUM of their parts, and so you can adversely disturb that (and their balance) by messing around too much. TBH, there's not a lot wrong with them in stock form. The worst part of their design, which was simply a sign of the times, is their rather flimsy (but well enough made) binding posts.

However, I've ordered some decent small spade-connectors, which will improve the connection over that offered simply by wrapping bare wire around the terminals, and if that sounds ok then I may leave them 'as is', as I'm using thin speaker cables, so don't need hefty terminals... Anyway, we'll see how it goes!:cool:

Just to update on this.... I fitted these small spade connectors today, which I ordered from Flashback Sales: https://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/acatalog/small-gold-speaker-cable-spade-connectors-238.html#SID=81

And I'm more than happy with the sound, so I'll be keeping the binding posts original. Therefore, only a possible cap upgrade to come, and that will be it, but I'm in no hurry to try that, as the speakers sound superb just as they are:)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

26-09-2020, 17:38

I rewired my 15's with Duelund cable which is tinned copper to replace tinned copper. I'm happy with how mine sound.

Marco

26-09-2020, 17:55

No worries, that's cool. I won't be going to that bother, though:)

Do you know if the crossovers in the 15s are the same as those in the XRs?

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

26-09-2020, 18:18

Yep I think the XO's are pretty much the same. Just one cap 4.7uf I think. You might benefit from having the crappy connectors removed from the XO to driver units. I just rewired my driver units straight onto the XO, you can do the same with speaker cable if you want to push things a bit further and bypass the binding posts.

karma67

26-09-2020, 18:19

i doubt it,the xr's also have a pcb type cross over,i still have a pair of them from when i owned the speakers.

Wakefield Turntables

26-09-2020, 18:25

I can answer that question now, I found the thread and you can see what I did to the XO.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46516-My-quot-REAL-SOUND-quot-experiment/page2&highlight=celestion+ditton

Floyddroid

26-09-2020, 18:48

There's a Seaman pun there somewhere, but I'm too distracted eating my dinner to find it.

Always liked that avatar.

Marco

26-09-2020, 20:29

Apparently, this is the crossover inside the 15s:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/tJcNHL.jpg

If so, it's an easy cap upgrade:)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

26-09-2020, 20:51

Just to update on this.... I fitted these small spade connectors today, which I ordered from Flashback Sales: https://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/acatalog/small-gold-speaker-cable-spade-connectors-238.html#SID=81

And I'm more than happy with the sound, so I'll be keeping the binding posts original. Therefore, only a possible cap upgrade to come, and that will be it, but I'm in no hurry to try that, as the speakers sound superb just as they are:)

Marco.

OMG I use these and have 100's on the shelf £1 each

LOL

https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg03224/speaker-spade-terminal-gold-black/dp/AV18810?st=speaker%20spade%20connectors

Wakefield Turntables

26-09-2020, 20:59

Mine look nothing like that, mind you mine are an older version on the 15's. At least it's only one cap to replace.

Beobloke

26-09-2020, 21:32

....plus true timeless classics, such as the LS3/5a.

Marco.

I’ll be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no idea what the massive fuss is about the LS3/5A or why good examples command such preposterous prices.

It was designed by the BBC as an outside broadcast monitor that was mainly used for vocals and I will grant you it does have a sweet midrange. However, overall I personally consider it to be a competent but ultimately limited small loudspeaker. Nothing more; nothing less.

As to the BBC voicing - this is merely one way of doing things and, whilst there are some examples that I do like (such as the bigger Harbeths and Spendors) I wouldn’t necessarily say it is the be all and end all.

Marco

26-09-2020, 23:00

OMG I use these and have 100's on the shelf £1 each

LOL

https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg03224/speaker-spade-terminal-gold-black/dp/AV18810?st=speaker%20spade%20connectors

Lol... Never even thought about you mate, as I don't associate you with something as 'low-brow' as that:D

Next time I'll remember;)

Marco.

Marco

26-09-2020, 23:02

Mine look nothing like that, mind you mine are an older version on the 15's. At least it's only one cap to replace.

Ah ok... I guess the only way I'll know what's inside mine then is to take a look!:eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

26-09-2020, 23:04

As to the BBC voicing - this is merely one way of doing things and, whilst there are some examples that I do like (such as the bigger Harbeths and Spendors) I wouldn’t necessarily say it is the be all and end all.

Sure, not the "be all and end all", but to my ears, with standmount speakers, hugely desirable over the type of presentation mostly offered now by their modern counterparts!:)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

27-09-2020, 07:55

Ah ok... I guess the only way I'll know what's inside mine then is to take a look!:eyebrows:

Marco.

Yep get your posidriver out and take a pic. You'll be buying vintage caps next to "tune" them :lol:. This is a practice which a BIG over in Japan where vintage mullard caps/transistors go for silly money.

Macca

27-09-2020, 08:02

Marco

27-09-2020, 08:08

Yep get your posidriver out and take a pic. You'll be buying vintage caps next to "tune" them :lol:. This is a practice which a BIG over in Japan where vintage mullard caps/transistors go for silly money.

Lol - well, that's what might be in there already, especially with the early vintage of these particular speakers. I've seen pics of PYE caps attached to the crossovers of some early 15s, which are essentially rebranded Philips/Mullard.

However, no I won't be doing that. One area where things have no-brainer moved on BIG TIME, is in the quality of electrical components available, such as capacitors. The best of today's polypropylene varieties really are in a different league, as we've learned so much in that area during the last 50 years!

Shame I can't say that about many of today's speakers....:rolleyes:

Marco.

Marco

27-09-2020, 08:27

I've never seem the point of any expensive miniature two-way speaker.

If you've got that kind of cash to spend, get something large enough where the size is not compromising everything else. And if you really don't have the room (you're living in your car for example) just buy a cheap one. Or stick with headphones.

I get where you're coming from - well I would do, wouldn't I, with the 'wardrobes' I've got sitting upstairs:eyebrows: - but done well, small (or smallish) standmounts have an 'intimacy' and lack of coloration to their musical presentation, simply due to the lack of box.

In that respect, if you're willing to sacrifice ultimate low-end heft, then the results can be magical with *some* types of music, but of course not all, and the types of music that they can excel at, aren't really to your taste.

The good thing about the Ditton 15s, is that their ABRs really do help in making them sound much bigger than they are, filling in the low-end nicely, and adding a goodly dose of 'wallop' to bass lines (and as I heard last night while watching a movie) crash/bang action sound effects (in conjunction with my twin Yamaha subs)... Plus, you still get their gorgeously fluid and open midrange, which I can tell you is better than that of many floorstanders!;)

I love them to bits, as aesthetically they fit in really well with the room, and sonically with the Sony amp, which is no slouch at 2-channel duties (with all tone controls and effects processing defeated), and so can happily listen to music through them for hours:)

One area too where they're notably better than the XRs, with being more efficient, is that you don't need to turn the volume up as much to get a 'room filling' sound. I think they're around 90db, which is a lot for small standmount designs, and that really helps them 'project' sound into the room with consummate ease, giving superb clarity to vocals, which is ably apparent simply by listening to TV programmes through them, and how accurately they reproduce the human voice.

Interesting review of them here, back in the day, by the one and only HB: http://www.audio4maniacs.co.uk/blog-article-celestionditton15.html

Marco.

walpurgis

27-09-2020, 08:57

Interesting review of them here, back in the day, by the one and only HB: http://www.audio4maniacs.co.uk/blog-article-celestionditton15.html

Marco.

The review appears to be incomplete as it just seems to stop part way through the description and there is no conclusion. There are also a couple of what I'd describe as minor mistakes in Hayden's interpretation of the design or at least they don't match my thoughts.

Marco

27-09-2020, 09:09

Macca

27-09-2020, 09:10

Marco

27-09-2020, 09:11

mightymonoped

27-09-2020, 09:37

Some more pics, as the light is much better today:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/VRxs64.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/z2kZVa.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/sNOV4o.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/jf20JO.jpg

I've removed the silver plastic surrounds from the grilles, as I didn't really like them (easily put back on though if need be), plus they've been polished a bit more! Looking good, I think:cool:

Marco.

They look good. My kind of speaker design to be honest. I prefer straight forward ‘classic’ enclosures which don’t draw unnecessary attention but ooze class. I hate looking at drivers, I do appreciate them but prefer them working behind the scenes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Marco

27-09-2020, 11:03

I was talking about miniatures like the LS3/5a, KEF LS50, Harbeth P3 ESR, not larger standmounts like the Ditton 15. They're a decent size, big enough to avoid some of the unacceptable compromises.

They do have 90dB sensitivity, probably an easy load for the amp too.

Given how cheap you can buy decent old speakers these days I'd have gone for a three-way speaker for the telly myself. In fact I did, although they cost a bit more than your Celestions:

https://i.ibb.co/7NGdxKt/B-O.jpg (https://ibb.co/HprfLqT)
www what is my screen resolution com (https://whatsmyscreenresolution.com/)

Just about large enough where the size itself isn't a serious compromise.

Yeah, sure, but remember I'm using them with subs (for TV and movie duties, otherwise just as a stereo pair), and there's no lack of detail to the midrange, even in the absence of a dedicated driver, quite the opposite...

Plus, if you count the ABRs as 'drivers' (and regardless they DO contribute significantly to the overall sound), then to all intents and purposes, the Ditton 15s are a '3-way' design:)

And yes, the 90db efficiency certainly gives the amp an easy load (150W into the fronts), which really works well in this application, effortlessly filling the room with a punchy 'big-boned' sound!

Marco.

P.S I like those speaks you've got, what are they?

Marco

27-09-2020, 11:13

They look good. My kind of speaker design to be honest. I prefer straight forward ‘classic’ enclosures which don’t draw unnecessary attention but ooze class. I hate looking at drivers, I do appreciate them but prefer them working behind the scenes.

Cheers, Tony. I was going to have the cabs French polished, just to get them looking mint [which is what I like with vintage gear, as I'm not into tatty-looking old tat, no matter HOW good it sounds], but dunno now if they need it. It would certainly save me the £240 I was quoted!:D

Yes, I know what you mean about grilles, and as long as they've been well-designed (and integral to the sound) I tend to agree, which applies to these Celestions. With the grilles on, the sound (and in particular stereo image) is definitely better defined/balanced and more natural, plus I dig the '60s retro-chic grille cloth'!:eyebrows:

Marco.

Macca

27-09-2020, 11:13

Beovox MC120.2

Don't know if you have done this already but if your amp allows it, cut off the signal to the mains speakers about 50, 60 Hz or so, so only the sub is handling the lower stuff.

The problem with a two way dome and cone is the main driver having to do both bass and midrange, so the more bass duties you can shift to the sub, the better.

Marco

27-09-2020, 11:22

Nice... Yes, I've done that (70Hz works best here), and yes that defo improves matters:)

It's laughable how good this little system sounds, given that in total it's cost less than £2k - and that includes the TV!

All I want now is a minty pair of Ditton 11s, to use as surrounds.

Marco.

Macca

27-09-2020, 11:44

Excellent - so you've effectively turned it into a 3 way speaker system. Are you using two subs or just one?

hornucopia

27-09-2020, 11:53

It's interesting how having a Flatsreen adjacent to speakers affects the sound. My Kuro is nearest to the Left speaker and affects the volume somewhat, so I have to sit off-centre to adjust for imagery.

Marco

27-09-2020, 12:19

Excellent - so you've effectively turned it into a 3 way speaker system. Are you using two subs or just one?

Two 10-inch subs, dude:)

Marco.

Marco

27-09-2020, 12:25

0
It's interesting how having a Flatsreen adjacent to speakers affects the sound. My Kuro is nearest to the Left speaker and affects the volume somewhat, so I have to sit off-centre to adjust for imagery.

Hi Chris,

It probably does (likely not in a good way either), and so does having a glass display cabinet so close to the R/H speaker, and a huge Welsh dresser behind the L/H one, both of which prevent the speakers from being more optimally positioned further back towards the wall, etc, etc... You get the picture!:D

An 'optimised room for sound' it isn't (although I've done my best in that respect, especially with attention paid to the stands, mains and cabling) - it's simply a comfortable/cosy and welcoming space in which to enjoy music [and the system does sound really good], but where the priority is in enjoying our antiques and collectables, plus lovely inglenook fireplace and wood burner, which is the focal point for us, not the TV...

Aesthetically, in a traditional room like ours (and in an old house), having a large(ish) plastic flatscreen TV is a necessary evil [for us more of an eyesore], and so not in any way considered as a 'statement piece'. It wouldn't even be that if we could fit something in that was much bigger, but of course it's required in order to enjoy our favourite TV shows and movies to a high standard. The 'home-cinema' experience, in that respect, is arguably more impressive than the audio-only one.

I wouldn't want to turn the room into a 'hi-fi demo' space, and neither would Del - we've got the dedicated music room upstairs for that, where the main system resides, and *everything* has been addressed to optimise the sound!;)

Marco.

walpurgis

27-09-2020, 16:14

Such as, Geoff?:)

In terms of the review, it's a bit jumbled up, due to whoever it was having copied the pages in the wrong sequence, but it's all there if you look and can manage to decipher the content in the right order!;)

Marco.

The pads bonded front and back of the ABR are made of bituminised sheet, but I suspect their main function is to add tuning mass to the diaphragm rather than to damp. It is also implied that the HF1300 is a ring radiator and reference is made to a Voigt tweeter having a central spider. There is no central fixing on the tweeter diaphragm, it is really a type of dome tweeter with a wide suspension incorporated into the diaphragm surround.

The HF1300 is a wonderful device. It is not peaky at all, but can sound a bit hard on axis, which I think is a colouration effect, but it portrays ambience and depth incredibly well and despite having a large moving mass for a tweeter, it displays superb perceived transient response. I have a few sets of various versions of these.

For a bit of fun, keep an eye out for the Ditton 120. It's like a miniature Ditton 15 and has a BIG sound that totally belies its small dimensions. They are rare!

https://i.imgur.com/EqcD5Ey.jpg

hornucopia

27-09-2020, 18:08

None of our rooms are perfect, hi-fi wise, I'm sure. The amount of pics I see with speakers firing into chairs/Sofas, etc....
I had to get rid of my Klipschorns when we moved into this split-level lounged house. No useable corners to fit the horns into .(Though, now, having thought further, I might try making 'artificial' corners)
The current Opera horns really need 3 feet behind them,minimum, but in a 10 X 14 space? And with both the 50" screen, plus full height windows reflecting, not perfect.

Marco

27-09-2020, 20:14

Hi Chris,

Yup, everything's a compromise, especially our living spaces (unless you live on your own) we put our systems into and have to share with others. I'm sure your horns still sound really good:)

Do saxes and trumpets sound really convincing through them? IME, nothing can touch good horns for getting those types of instruments right, in terms of reproducing the necessary dynamics!

Marco.

Marco

27-09-2020, 20:16

Just a wee system update... Have ordered two of these NOS Melz 1960s vintage valves for my valve headphone amp: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N16B-V-6021-Matched-Selected-Pair-MELZ-NEW-NOS-OTK-Strong-Made-in-1960s/173500199357?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Should be good:cool:

Marco.

Marco

27-09-2020, 20:24

The pads bonded front and back of the ABR are made of bituminised sheet, but I suspect their main function is to add tuning mass to the diaphragm rather than to damp. It is also implied that the HF1300 is a ring radiator and reference is made to a Voigt tweeter having a central spider. There is no central fixing on the tweeter diaphragm, it is really a type of dome tweeter with a wide suspension incorporated into the diaphragm surround.

The HF1300 is a wonderful device. It is not peaky at all, but can sound a bit hard on axis, which I think is a colouration effect, but it portrays ambience and depth incredibly well and despite having a large moving mass for a tweeter, it displays superb perceived transient response. I have a few sets of various versions of these.

For a bit of fun, keep an eye out for the Ditton 120. It's like a miniature Ditton 15 and has a BIG sound that totally belies its small dimensions. They are rare!

https://i.imgur.com/EqcD5Ey.jpg

Interesting, Geoff. I'll keep an eye out for those - didn't even know they existed!:)

I can't dispute your other points, in terms of Hayden's statements, as I wouldn't know, but totally agree with your views on the HF1300, although there is no brightness with them in my system. Quite frankly, they piss all over the modern soft-dome units in the XRs - a different league.

Marco.

Marco

01-10-2020, 18:35

Been polishing the Copper amp today, in readiness for firing her up in the first time in a long time - spent nearly 2 hours cleaning it and my hands are now numb, lol...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/4jrwHS.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/LkLSZj.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/YGDd1y.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jbfO7n.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/V1m3dt.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/d9Kpkm.jpg

Looking pretty good I think...:cool:

This is my pride and joy - hand-built from scratch by Anthony Matthews, point-to-point wired throughout internally, featuring hand-wound output transformers and Sowter mains transformer. 40W Class A, when fitted with Cryo-treated Tung Sol KT-150 output valves, NOS 1950s Russian Melz 6H8C (6SN7 equivalents) driver valves, plus NOS RCA 5U4GB rectifiers.

At the rear, Furutech FP-901 rhodium over pure-copper phono sockets have been fitted, along with Cardas solid-copper speaker terminals and a Furutech FI-03 rhodium over pure-copper IEC socket, all to ensure maximum conductivity and signal transfer. Plus also mono variable-feedback controls. Amp weighs 40kg.

It forms a formidable combination with my modded Croft preamp, and drives my 95db 15" Tannoy MGs in Lockwood cabinets, erm, rather nicely!:D

Marco.

kininigin

01-10-2020, 19:58

kininigin

01-10-2020, 20:00

Been polishing the Copper amp today, in readiness for firing her up in the first time in a long time - spent nearly 2 hours cleaning it and my hands are now numb, lol...

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/4jrwHS.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/LkLSZj.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/YGDd1y.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jbfO7n.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/V1m3dt.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/d9Kpkm.jpg

Looking pretty good I think...:cool:

This is my pride and joy - hand-built from scratch by Anthony Matthews, point-to-point wired throughout internally, featuring hand-wound output transformers and Sowter mains transformer. 40W Class A, fitted with Cryo-treated Tung Sol KT-150 output valves, NOS 1950s Russian Melz 6H8C (6SN7 equivalents) driver valves, plus NOS RCA 5U4GB rectifiers.

At the rear, Furutech FP-901 rhodium over pure-copper phono sockets have been fitted, along with Cardas solid-copper speaker terminals and a Furutech FI-03 rhodium over pure-copper IEC socket, all to ensure maximum conductivity and signal transfer. Plus also mono variable-feedback controls. Amp weighs 40kg.

It forms a formidable combination with my modded Croft preamp, and drives my 95db 15" Tannoy MGs in Lockwood cabinets, erm, rather nicely!:D

Marco.

Fair do's Marco, that's one bad ass looking power amp!:fingers:

DarrenHW

03-10-2020, 15:27

Always liked that avatar.

I call her "The Rigonda Girl". It's a Rigonda something or other (Andre would know) she's leaning on.

They look pretty tidy. Andre's favourite Celestion IIRC

As Marco says Andre favoured the 33's , if memory serves 15's were Gordon Steadman's favourite?

Glad you're happy with them Marco. I remember reading lots of recommendations for them, but was always (unduly it seems) a bit afraid of trouble with the tweeter. Have you established whats in the x-over yet? If it's the same cap as the XR's we could just swap them (crazy expensive Jantzens?). I think I've got some suitable Mundorf E-Caps in my spares draw or I'm sure I saw Andy had some Clarity caps going for a song to keep your XR's running.

Holy moly your Copper Amp looks good :wow:

Marco

03-10-2020, 17:11

As Marco says Andre favoured the 33's...

Yups, he also liked that one of yours I used to use as a centre speaker - you know with both drivers in a horizontal array with the tweeter in between them on top? What was the model again?

Glad you're happy with them Marco. I remember reading lots of recommendations for them, but was always (unduly it seems) a bit afraid of trouble with the tweeter. Have you established whats in the x-over yet? If it's the same cap as the XR's we could just swap them (crazy expensive Jantzens?). I think I've got some suitable Mundorf E-Caps in my spares draw or I'm sure I saw Andy had some Clarity caps going for a song to keep your XR's running.

Holy moly your Copper Amp looks good :wow:

Cheers, mate. I was at that for over two hours! Previously it had been caked in about 2 inches of dust and all sorts of 'ingrained' fingerprints, as the acid from your fingers and hands stains copper, so LOTS of rubbing and polishing was needed! It'll be maintained that way now:)

Yeah, I'm really delighted with these 15s. Honestly, Darren, you'll know exactly what I mean when you hear them. The midrange and top-end is in a different league from the XRs, even recapped with those lovely Jentzens. It's just much more open, lucid and communicative, and bizarrely too, the bass subjectively seems fuller, but also tighter, more tuneful, and with greater 'snap' and transient attack.

Just as big a difference, however, is their superior sensitivity of 90db, compared with (I think) the 87db of the XRs. And that 3db makes a MASSIVE difference to the intelligibility of vocals and the ability of the speakers to fill the room effortlessly with a big (for their size) sound.

Rather crucially, what that means, in terms of your fears over the tweeters, is that you simply don't have to turn up the volume very much before the sound becomes palpably loud. There's none of that 'chasing dynamics' or crispness, required from turning up the volume before you (falsely) achieve it and feel that the sound has the requisite clarity or 'physicality', if you know what I mean, in the way that's often necessary when using less efficient designs.

Therefore, you'd REALLY need to be a headbanger and/or use these speakers with a weedy amp, or just simply be stupidly careless, in order to blow the tweeters, so in the real world, or unless you're a careless clown, their reputation for 'blowing easily' needs rather closer scrutiny. If used responsibly, there are no issues.

Soncially too, the HF1300s are a FAR superior design to the soft-dome units used in the XRs - just no comparison really... The former simply render the latter as boxy, somewhat opaque sounding entities, lacking in genuine sparkle and extension. The levels of insight the HF1300s [in conjunction with the vintage mid/bass units] allow into recordings, and the subtle nuances they're able to tease out of even the densest of mixes, is simply a joy to behold!:)

I've not been inside them yet mate, as I've just been too busy listening to music or movies through them to bother, but when we're out of lockdown [hopefully soon] perhaps you could pop round and if they're the same, swap over the caps? Who knows though, the originals may still sound best... At least it won't cost anything to try if the values are the same:cool:

Marco.

Swann36

03-10-2020, 17:37

DarrenHW

03-10-2020, 17:53

Yups, he also liked that one of yours I used to use as a centre speaker - you know with both drivers in a horizontal array with the tweeter in between them on top? What was the model again?

It was a UL6. I may try and find a pair, as I'm going to have the ability to to Atmos I'll probably be on the lookout for some smaller Celestions to use as Highs. Not strictly the correct implementation, but as you know I'm limited with what I can do in the current room.

I've not been inside them yet mate, as I've just been too busy listening to music or movies through them to bother, but when we're out of lockdown [hopefully soon] perhaps you could pop round and if they're the same, swap over the caps? Who knows though, the originals may still sound best... At least it won't cost anything to try if the values are the same:cool:

Marco.

It seems peeking under the bonnet is going to be the only way to tell. It looks like there were 2 different x-over's for the 15's, one like the 15XR with a 4.7uf cap and the type that you posted an image of which seem to use a 12uF cap.

Looking at the photos both you and Andy have posted I would speculate that yours use the 12uF cap. Andy's have a veneered baffle and chamfered edges, his contained the XR type x-over. As yours have no veneer or chamfer I'm guessing they're older and contain the 12uF cap, but I could be barking up the wrong tree, it certainly wouldn't be the first time!

Marco

03-10-2020, 18:07

Looks absolutely stunning ...... do you use a Vinegar & Salt mix ?

Cheers, Lloyd! You're the second person to ask me that, lol.

No, just the 'wool type' Brasso, some kitchen roll and LOTS of polishing and rubbing, including wrapping said Brasso around cotton-wool buds, in order to get into all the hard to access little corners, and polish to a shine, then lastly wiping off any leftover residue with some isopropyl alcohol.

However, as you can see, the results were worth it!:cool:

Marco.

Marco

03-10-2020, 18:10

It was a UL6. I may try and find a pair, as I'm going to have the ability to to Atmos I'll probably be on the lookout for some smaller Celestions to use as Highs. Not strictly the correct implementation, but as you know I'm limited with what I can do in the current room.

It seems peeking under the bonnet is going to be the only way to tell. It looks like there were 2 different x-over's for the 15's, one like the 15XR with a 4.7uf cap and the type that you posted an image of which seem to use a 12uF cap.

Looking at the photos both you and Andy have posted I would speculate that yours use the 12uF cap. Andy's have a veneered baffle and chamfered edges, his contained the XR type x-over. As yours have no veneer or chamfer I'm guessing they're older and contain the 12uF cap, but I could be barking up the wrong tree, it certainly wouldn't be the first time!

Yup, I follow your thinking. It'll defo be one or the other, and if I have to shell out for some new caps, so be it. The speakers are well worth it, especially considering the little I paid for them! I may try something different from the Janzens, perhaps some nice paper-in-oils....

We'll tackle it properly after lockdown:)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

03-10-2020, 18:33

It's certainly very strange that mine have the 4.7uf cap and yours has 12uf. TBH the XR style X-O is a doddle to work on although I will say Marco that your X-O does away with several layers of connectors and unnecessary components compared to the 15XR X-O. My 15's were originally bought for the "REAL" sound project that has been championed by Jeff Day https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/welcome-to-jeffs-place/ he's a real Duelund fan. I've bought a few Duelund components and modded my 15's. I must say that they do sound quite nice. I'd probably at some point try a pair of Duelund bypass caps. Something like this https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund-jdm-copper-600vdc.html or https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund-jdm-ag-600vdc.html these would complete my "REAL" sound experiment. In fact I might order a pair just for the hell of it and see how they sound.

Marco

03-10-2020, 18:45

Hi Andy,

It's certainly very strange that mine have the 4.7uf cap and yours has 12uf.

Well, until I have a peek inside, that's not been confirmed!;) So we'll see...

TBH the XR style X-O is a doddle to work on although I will say Marco that your X-O does away with several layers of connectors and unnecessary components compared to the 15XR X-O. My 15's were originally bought for the "REAL" sound project that has been championed by Jeff Day https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/welcome-to-jeffs-place/ he's a real Duelund fan. I've bought a few Duelund components and modded my 15's. I must say that they do sound quite nice. I'd probably at some point try a pair of Duelund bypass caps. Something like this https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund-jdm-copper-600vdc.html or https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund-jdm-ag-600vdc.html these would complete my "REAL" sound experiment. In fact I might order a pair just for the hell of it and see how they sound.

Yeah I get where you're coming from, and no doubt they'll sound great, as I have a big respect for Duelund products. Not cheap, but they're properly designed and built to the highest standard, so usually effect significant sonic improvements in whichever circuits their use is applied.

I didn't know that the X-Os in my 15s were overall simpler than those in the XRs, as there wasn't an awful lot to those either. Interesting - do you have any pics of both, in order to illustrate the point?:)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

03-10-2020, 18:50

I've no pics of my original X-O's as I've modified them. But this is how mine used to look. 28675 I'll probably end up posting some pics of my modded XO if and when I order the Duelund bypass caps.

Marco

03-10-2020, 18:54

Forgot to mention this:

It was a UL6. I may try and find a pair, as I'm going to have the ability to to Atmos I'll probably be on the lookout for some smaller Celestions to use as Highs. Not strictly the correct implementation, but as you know I'm limited with what I can do in the current room.

Yes, UL6 - that was the one! I've never heard them as a stereo pair. Have you? Andre seemed to rate them, and I can get why, as given the arrangement of the drivers, their presentation is likely to be quite different from traditional 'vertical' standmount designs - and they still feature the use of that rather nice ABR!:)

Marco.

Marco

03-10-2020, 18:55

I've no pics of my original X-O's as I've modified them. But this is how mine used to look. 28675 I'll probably end up posting some pics of my modded XO if and when I order the Duelund bypass caps.

Cheers, Andy. So just to confirm, is that from your 15s, not your XRs?

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

03-10-2020, 19:37

Yes that's from my 15's it appears to be exactly the same as my old 15XR's. I don't own any 15 XR's

Marco

03-10-2020, 20:24

Okies:)

Marco.

Marco

04-10-2020, 02:17

From earlier...

Ok, headphones.... Since I've got a new headphone amp, I also thought about a headphone upgrade. Now I primarily love high-quality vintage headphones, as much like speakers, the best ones have a 'sound'/tonal richness and musicality all of their own, and so thought 'what if I could find a minty pair of original Koss PRO-4AAAs at a good price?':hmm:

Well I did, and so today bought these beauts:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/p3MdeM.jpg

Looks like they've hardly been used! So it'll be interesting comparing the originals, which you can see are much better made, with the modern reproductions:cool:

Those have now arrived and have certainly lived up to my expectations! Firstly, they're in every bit as good condition as the pics on the seller's entry on ebay showed, with hardly a mark on them:thumbsup:

Secondly, I'm also pleased to report that they're considerably lighter than than the modern replicas I own, I suspect due to the slightly smaller earpieces and therefore the presence of less of the 'khaki green' hard-plastic shell covering them, which is rather heavy, and thankfully also absent on the headband of the originals. Modern equivalents shown below for comparison:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/HAifVX.jpg

I haven't weighed both pairs of headphones yet, but the originals must be a good few ounces lighter, so that certainly helps on the comfort front, plus the padded section of the earcups is rounded, rather than oval-shaped, as with their modern counterparts, so they fit your ears better. Furthermore, the originals don't 'clamp' onto your ears like the modern versions, so there's none of that feeling somewhat of having your head in a vice...

Therefore the originals feel altogether much lighter and more comfortable to wear, and so can be used for longer periods without any fatigue whatsoever. However, the most important thing is that they SOUND significantly better than their modern counterparts, so my not inconsiderable investment in them has thankfully paid off!:)

The most notable differences are firstly that they are more efficient, and so easier to drive, not that the valve headphone amp I'm using struggles any way in that regard (quite the opposite, as there's oodles of gain and ability to drive even the most inefficient designs), but rather like the difference between the original Ditton 15 speakers and the less-efficient XRs, it makes for a bigger and more effortless sound overall, and the lack of any need to turn the volume up much in order to create very dynamic and believable sounding music.

Secondly, and most importantly, the midrange and top-end (again much like comparisons between the Celestion speakers mentioned) are more open and lucid, in fact shockingly so, such is the crystal-clear clarity of instruments and vocals, with upper-frequencies being very detailed and extended, plus having an addictively 'creamy', almost electrostatic-like quality, and for headphones, a cavernously wide soundstage.

Consequently, this makes their modern counterparts sound rather muddy and constrained in comparison, adding a 'cuppy' colaration to vocals, rendering them notably inferior to the originals, in terms of sounding faithful to the recording and therefore musically 'lifelike'.

The bass end of the originals is also quite different, being marginally lighter in touch, with no overhang (in reality probably just less coloured and more accurate) than that of their modern counterparts, but also deeper and more rhythmic, imparting palpable weight and gravitas to lower frequencies with suitable material, such as orchestral crescendos and rock and dance/electronic music, whilst never sounding boomy or overblown.

Overall, they have a very 'widescreen' open, airy and dynamic sound with bags of finesse and subtlety, also when the music demands, and so sonically and musically several classes above their modern replicas. When listening to these original Koss PRO-4AAAs, it's patently obvious why they're sought after by discerning audiophiles and command such high prices on ebay. In that respect, I'd comfortably compare them with most of today's top designs, and certainly anything up to around £800, so a veritable bargain for the £210 I paid!

Anyway, I'm delighted with them, and off now to listen to some more choons before bed, even though it's rather late as it is!:cool:

Marco.

DarrenHW

04-10-2020, 07:18

Yes, UL6 - that was the one! I've never heard them as a stereo pair. Have you? Andre seemed to rate them, and I can get why, as given the arrangement of the drivers, their presentation is likely to be quite different from traditional 'vertical' standmount designs - and they still feature the use of that rather nice ABR!:)
.

No, I just had that one and I can't remember where that came from :scratch:

Marco

04-10-2020, 08:08

Knowing you, probably a skip or a car-boot sale:D

Marco.

DarrenHW

04-10-2020, 08:42

That's where all the best stuff comes from!

Marco

04-10-2020, 08:55

Word:smoking:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

06-10-2020, 20:21

Marco, just installed the Duelund bypass caps into the 15's, they sound excellent so far. Might be an idea for you. What's your best tips for the 15's placement? How from the back and sides of the walls?

Barry

06-10-2020, 20:52

Re. your headphone comparison Marco. I'm a bit confused: your refer to the Pro 4AAAs as "the originals", and to the Pro 4AAs as "their modern counterparts", yet the Pro 4AAs obviously pre-date the Pro 4AAAs.

Regarding comfort; the fluid-filled rubber ear pads of the 4AAs are likely to have have hardened over time, so too the foam of the headband. Also the headband of the 4AAAs looks to be lighter and more flexible, and hence more comfortable.

Marco

07-10-2020, 09:41

Hi Barry,

Scroll back to the post where I reviewed both headphones, and have a look at the pictures I posted... The bottom ones are the currently available (for around £140, although I only paid £70 for mine brand new, around 8 years ago) Koss PRO4-AA, see here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE

Those are what I've referred to as 'modern replicas', because that's what they are, I suspect made in China, although I could be wrong about that. The originals, PRO-4AAA (which I've recently bought and shown in the first picture), would've almost certainly been made by Koss in the US.

If you examine the picture of the 'replicas', you'll see that not only do they have larger earcups (covered in that heavy hard-plastic shell), but also the same stuff on the headband, the combination of which makes them considerably heavier than the originals. Honestly, the difference is considerable! Plus, the originals lack the former's 'head clamping' effect, and have a much looser, more comfortable fit.

Also, in terms of the fluid-filled rubber earpads of the originals, nothing has hardened - every aspect of them is in near mint condition, ditto the earpads of the 'replicas'. Quite simply, both the fit and feel of the respective headphones is very different. And in terms of sound, I stand by everything I've said in that respect - the originals are several leagues ahead of their modern counterparts.

Marco.

Barry

07-10-2020, 09:55

I'm not disputing the physical differences, only the terminology. Your link is for the Pro 4AA.

My Koss Pro 4AAs are most certainly original (they have a 'khaki geen colour and made in the US by Koss; I didn't know that 'replicas' were being made elsewhere. They must be illegitimate copies, as I can't understand why Koss would continue production of the 4AAs after introducing their replacement: the Pro 4AAAs.

If your Pro 4AAs are a copy, then it is possible the SQ is different (and inferior) to the original Koss design.

But all this is by the by: as I have said elsewhere, I'm not that keen on listening with headphones, but pleased you are pleased with your new 'phones. :)

Marco

07-10-2020, 10:26

Lol - we're still somewhat at cross purposes here...

I'm not disputing the physical differences, only the terminology. Your link is for the Pro 4AA.

Let's clear this up, as I suspect said nomenclature is where the confusion lies.

It's my understanding. although I could be wrong, that the originals are called 'PRO4-AAA', as in 3 As, not 2, and indeed as per the ebay ad where I bought mine: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headphones-KOSS-PRO-4AAA-Vintage-Rare-Audiophile-Rero-High-End/233504441959?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

You'll see they are clearly marked as 'KOSS PRO 4AAA', so that's what I've always referred to as the originals. The modern 'replicas' are known as Koss PRO-4AA (2 As, not 3), as shown here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE

And If you examine both headphones, you'll see that they are made quite differently. So which ones have you got (a pic would be good)?

Do they look like the originals I've bought, shown in the first link, or more like the modern versions, shown in the second link? And which model number do you consider denotes the originals: 'AAA' or 'AA'?

If your Pro 4AAs are a copy, then it is possible the SQ is different (and inferior) to the original Koss design.

It's not a case of just MINE being a copy (that is the modern replicas I owned before buying a pair of the originals), but ALL currently produced ones for sale, such as shown on the ad above - and yes as a result they DO sound inferior to the originals, massively so!:)

Marco.

Macca

07-10-2020, 11:21

The 4AA was introduced in 1970. The 4AAA was a couple of years later. So both are 'vintage' designs although it does appear that Koss are still making both models in the present day.

Whether the modern versions differ substantially from the vintage ones I don't know, but the confusion is understandable.

Barry

07-10-2020, 11:27

The first of the Pro 4 range were the Pro 4 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/174332866547?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=174332866547&targetid=876521212702&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045997&poi=&campaignid=9445986145&mkgroupid=96612410075&rlsatarget=pla-876521212702&abcId=578896&merchantid=115134944&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkKaq6a2i7AIVCIBQBh1P0QNAEAQYAyAB EgKXxPD_BwE). The second version (and presumably improved) were the Pro 4A (with one 'A'). The third version were the Pro 4AA (with two 'A's), and the fourth and final version were the Pro 4AAA (with three 'A's). Since they are a development of the Pro 4AAs, one would assume they have an improved comfort and performance.

I cannot imagine Koss continuing to manufacture previous Pro 4 designs, once they were superseded by a later version.

My Pro 4AAs look exactly like yours, with a sage-green finish and a solid and inflexible head band. Those shown in the ebay link have a different, and IMO preferable, colour, which might have been a later colour change by Koss. They look to be NOS (the seller appears to be a trader who buys up old stock, and the one he has for sale is his last), and not copies.

Marco

07-10-2020, 12:04

Lol... There's still some confusion, but we're getting closer now to clarity!:D

The first of the Pro 4 range were the Pro 4 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/174332866547?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=174332866547&targetid=876521212702&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045997&poi=&campaignid=9445986145&mkgroupid=96612410075&rlsatarget=pla-876521212702&abcId=578896&merchantid=115134944&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkKaq6a2i7AIVCIBQBh1P0QNAEAQYAyAB EgKXxPD_BwE).

Cool... Didn't even know they existed!

The second version (and presumably improved) were the Pro 4A (with one 'A'). The third version were the Pro 4AA (with two 'A's), and the fourth and final version were the Pro 4AAA (with three 'A's). Since they are a development of the Pro 4AAs, one would assume they have an improved comfort and performance.

That is also clear, although the last bit, which I've highlighted, is debatable.

Firstly, it's not automatically guaranteed that the latest incarnations of any form of audio equipment are the best or superior to earlier ones, simply because costs are often cut (in a drive to increase profits) often at the expense of quality, build and/or sound. Therefore, it's dangerous having a mindset of 'latest is best'.

Also, are the PRO 4AAA (with three As) you're referring to the same as shown in this ebay ad, which I linked to earlier (the current production variety): https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE or an earlier version of such?

My view is that the current ones above ARE inferior to all previous versions, and are likely made in China. It certainly sounds like it!

My Pro 4AAs look exactly like yours...

Do you mean these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headphones-KOSS-PRO-4AAA-Vintage-Rare-Audiophile-Rero-High-End/233504441959?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Just need to nail that one dead!:)

...because this suggests they are different:

and a solid and inflexible head band.

Because the headband on mine, whilst 'solid', isn't inflexible.

Those shown in the ebay link have a different, and IMO preferable, colour, which might have been a later colour change by Koss. They look to be NOS (the seller appears to be a trader who buys up old stock, and the one he has for sale is his last), and not copies.

Again, just to clarify, exactly which ones (either show a picture or provide a link) are you referring to?

Marco.

Barry

07-10-2020, 13:40

The ebay link you provide is for a pair of Pro 4AAs (read the tile of the sale thread). I had assumed, despite the change in colour, they were genuine NOS stock.

Yet there does seem to be some evidence of a 'new' value-engineered version of the Pro 4AA headphones: (taken from the Audio Review site)

This review is for the "NEW" version of the Pro-4AA's that has been re-designed and is different from the "OLDER" version. First of all DO NOT waste your money on this new version of the Pro-4AA especially if you had the older version. They are made like Garbage!! Cheap plastic and cheap materials is what makes up this new version. I removed one of the ear pads,and there were 2 staples holding down the mesh pads to a piece of cheap felt!! I couldn't believe it!! The adjustable headband is made so poorly,it's a struggle just to adjust the size. And of course most importantly; The Sound. At 250-Ohms impedance they are difficult to drive, even with a Headphone Amp. I am a headphone enthusiast and use a well known high-end Headphone Amp; and they sound like total crap!! The old version was WAY better than these, all around. If you want to spend $100 get a pair of Sony MDR-7506,Sennheiser HD-280 or AKG K-240S which all will absolutely blow these away.

Maybe that is what is being sold on ebay. If it is, it is a shame Koss feel the need to apply cost-cutting measures to their former, well regarded, Pro 4AA design. Even if it is to 'cash in' on the reputation amongst studio users amongst others, the cheapened version will do Koss's reputation no favours at all.

My Pro 4AAs look exactly like the ones you show in the second photograph: sage green in colour, with a solid (but slightly flexible) headband having a foam rubber insert. I'm not at home at the moment so cannot take a photograph, so you will just have to trust me.

Your second ebay link(https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headphones-KOSS-PRO-4AAA-Vintage-Rare-Audiophile-Rero-High-End/233504441959?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) is for the Koss Pro 4AAAs, which as you will see are the same as those shown in the first photograph of your post.

One other thing I dislike is on most Koss phones is the very heavy coiled lead. Unless supported, it tends to pull down the left hand side of the phones.

Anyway, I don't want to go around in circles - I'm going out to enjoy the Autumn sunshine and share Zen with my fellow man. It's going to rain later this evening and will do so for the next few days.

ATB

Marco

07-10-2020, 14:53

Lol - I don't want to round in circles either, just simply establish that we're talking about the same thing! So...

The ebay link you provide is for a pair of Pro 4AAs (read the tile of the sale thread). I had assumed, despite the change in colour, they were genuine NOS stock.

Yes, if you're referring to this link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE showing the modern production ones I've owned for 8 years.

But no, if you're referring to the NOS ones I recently bought on ebay, shown on the other link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headphones-KOSS-PRO-4AAA-Vintage-Rare-Audiophile-Rero-High-End/233504441959?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

As you'll see, those were advertised as PRO-4AAA, which in actuality, I think is the wrong model number. Based on the historical order order of release you stated earlier, which I believe is correct, they're either PRO-4A or PRO-4AA. AAAs are shown in the first link, which are quite different in construction.

Yet there does seem to be some evidence of a 'new' value-engineered version of the Pro 4AA headphones: (taken from the Audio Review site)

Maybe that is what is being sold on ebay. If it is, it is a shame Koss feel the need to apply cost-cutting measures to their former, well regarded, Pro 4AA design. Even if it is to 'cash in' on the reputation amongst studio users amongst others, the cheapened version will do Koss's reputation no favours at all.

I can say as fact, as I bought some, that that is *exactly* what is being sold on ebay, shown in the first link above, and sound wise, they are significantly inferior to the NOS ones I bought shown in the second link.

My Pro 4AAs look exactly like the ones you show in the second photograph: sage green in colour, with a solid (but slightly flexible) headband having a foam rubber insert. I'm not at home at the moment so cannot take a photograph, so you will just have to trust me.

Lol, it's not about trusting you, of course I do, but rather about ensuring that we're taking about the same thing!:D

One other thing I dislike is on most Koss phones is the very heavy coiled lead. Unless supported, it tends to pull down the left hand side of the phones.

Not found that myself...but I'd prefer the lead to be longer. In reality, most people will not be sitting close enough to whatever the headphones are plugged into, for the stock lead to suffice. Another half metre or so would make all the difference!

Anyway, I don't want to go around in circles - I'm going out to enjoy the Autumn sunshine and share Zen with my fellow man. It's going to rain later this evening and will do so for the next few days.

Indeed, so enjoy!:cool:

Marco.

Marco

07-10-2020, 15:06

The 4AA was introduced in 1970.

Ok, so when were the PRO-4, shown here introduced: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/174332866547?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=174332866547&targetid=876521212702&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045997&poi=&campaignid=9445986145&mkgroupid=96612410075&rlsatarget=pla-876521212702&abcId=578896&merchantid=115134944&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkKaq6a2i7AIVCIBQBh1P0QNAEAQYAyAB EgKXxPD_BwE

And are the ones I bought, shown here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headphones-KOSS-PRO-4AAA-Vintage-Rare-Audiophile-Rero-High-End/233504441959?ssPageName=STRK%253AMEBIDX%253AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 PRO-4A or AA?

*That* is what I'm trying to ascertain. They're defo not AAAs, as those were introduced later and look quite different from Barry's or mine.

The 4AAA was a couple of years later. So both are 'vintage' designs although it does appear that Koss are still making both models in the present
day.

Firstly, what does the 4AAA of a couple of years later (1972-ish?) look like compared with the 4AAA currently being sold, as shown here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE and why are those being sold as 'AA', not 'AAA'?

Secondly, Koss are only making the model shown in the link above, nothing else, so there is no "both".

Marco.

Marco

07-10-2020, 15:15

We know what the original PRO-4s look like, as Barry has provided a link. What's unclear, however, is what the A, AA and AAA look like in comparison, and so need some pictorial evidence of such!:)

Marco.

Macca

07-10-2020, 15:52

Marco

07-10-2020, 16:43

Cheers! I should've remembered about that link, as Justers posted it on another thread. All is clear now then, so these are the facts...

Original Koss PRO-4AA:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/RIb03g.png

So those are definitely what the modern replicas are based upon, shown here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE

However, I strongly suspect that whilst superficially looking identical, the important 'gubbins'/speaker part, responsible for creating the sound, is different in the originals, which I also strongly suspect, will sound better, certainly based on comparisons with my NOS PRO-4AAAs.

Koss PRO-4AAA:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/waNsz9.png

So are those the same as yours. Barry? If so, for me, there's nothing "inflexible" about the headband. Note also from the above blub, I quote:

"In 1976, Koss introduced the Pro/4AAA. Building off of the Pro/4AA’s iconic sound, the Pro/4AAA incorporated a number of new design features. The most notable of these features was the headphone’s Direct Contour Pneumalite ear cushions. The shape of the cushions mirrored an ear’s natural “D” shape".

Their 'D-shaped' ear cushions is one of the big reasons why they're more comfortable than those fitted to the AAs (certainly the modern versions I've got), which are quite different in design. Plus, their respective 'earpiece housings' also seem to be a different size, with those on the AAs seemingly bigger and bulkier. That's certainly how it feels when wearing them, thereby making the AAAs markedly lighter!

In any case, those are identical to the ones I bought from ebay, BUT which sound significantly better than the current production 4AA, which I also own. In that respect, it would be interesting comparing a NOS pair of 4AA with the current production variety. I suspect I could hazard a guess at which would sound best!;)

Marco.

Marco

07-10-2020, 16:50

Barry

07-10-2020, 17:15

Cheers! I should've remembered about that link, as Justers posted it on another thread. All is clear now then, so these are the facts...

Original Koss PRO-4AA:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/RIb03g.png

So those are definitely what the modern replicas are based upon, shown here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373061510537?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373061510537&targetid=939009505666&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007464&poi=&campaignid=10199631325&mkgroupid=103626356284&rlsatarget=pla-939009505666&abcId=1145987&merchantid=118933698&gclid=CjwKCAjwzvX7BRAeEiwAsXExo_8FpMtrFgSeFK0kBppw L0Z2CtLZp_8brovlwEYjuN6ZPHBYAmQvzRoCGpcQAvD_BwE

However, I strongly suspect that whilst superficially looking identical, the important 'gubbins'/speaker part, responsible for creating the sound, is different in the originals, which I also strongly suspect, will sound better, certainly based on comparisons with my NOS PRO-4AAAs.

Koss PRO-4AAA:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/waNsz9.png

So are those the same as yours. Barry? If so, for me, there's nothing "inflexible" about the headband. Note also from the above blub, I quote:

"In 1976, Koss introduced the Pro/4AAA. Building off of the Pro/4AA’s iconic sound, the Pro/4AAA incorporated a number of new design features. The most notable of these features was the headphone’s Direct Contour Pneumalite ear cushions. The shape of the cushions mirrored an ear’s natural “D” shape".

Their 'D-shaped' ear cushions is one of the big reasons why they're more comfortable than those fitted to the AAs (certainly the modern versions I've got), which are quite different in design. Plus, their respective 'earpiece housings' also seem to be a different size, with those on the AAs seemingly bigger and bulkier. That's certainly how it feels when wearing them, and also the AAAs are markedly lighter!

In any case, those are identical to the ones I bought from ebay, BUT which sound significantly better than the current production 4AA, which I also own. In that respect, it would be interesting comparing a NOS pair of 4AA with the current production variety/modern replicas. I bet I could hazard a guess at which would sound best!;)

Marco.

So far, so good. Save the highlighted bit - no, I have a pair of Koss Pro 4AA headphones, exactly like yours:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/HAifVX.jpg

They are the original version with the 'racetrack' shaped, fluid-filled ear pads, and sage-green coloured plastic headband and ear cups.

I don't doubt the Pro 4AAAs are more comfortable, and will take your word for it that they sound better. :)

Marco

07-10-2020, 17:30

Lol... I had a feeling we were talking about different things!:doh::lol:

So, we're *almost* there now.... Are your AAs original 1970s vintage, or the SAME as mine, i.e. modern replicas, thus purchased reasonably recently?

Marco.

Barry

07-10-2020, 17:31

Pro4AAA came out in 1976. They look like the ones you bought off of eBay to me.

Koss own site has a full timeline of all their headphones and pictures of them too:

https://www.koss.com/history/

Should resolve all questions :)

My Koss Pro 4AA headphones look the same as those worn by the guy in title banner.

As far as I know, they are the original 1970's version, but since I bought them used from a member here, without box or any paperwork, cannot be absolutely certain.

What kind of jack plug does yours have?

Macca

07-10-2020, 17:35

As you've obviously read the link, Martin, would you agree that Koss are a rather interesting company with a long and established heritage in producing quality headphones?

That's certainly one of the things that draw me to the brand, as I like that kind of thing:)

Marco.

No doubt. Although I don't like listening on headphones if I was to get some decent ones I'd almost certainly go for Koss. Would have to do a bit of research as to which model though.

Marco

07-10-2020, 17:44

My Koss Pro 4AA headphones look the same as those worn by the guy in title banner.

Lol, but that still doesn't answer my question:

Are yours NOS 1970 or modern production ones? When and from where did you buy them, and how much did you pay?:)

Marco.

Marco

07-10-2020, 17:51

No doubt. Although I don't like listening on headphones if I was to get some decent ones I'd almost certainly go for Koss. Would have to do a bit of research as to which model though.

Yup, such heritage for me is invaluable and a big asset, in terms of having the necessary tooling/engineering and experience to produce true high-quality designs, compared with some other company without that, who make all sorts of other stuff, and which is more a 'jack of all trades and a master of none'.

Therefore, for me, Koss are (were maybe, as quality in recent times seems to have dipped) true headphone specialists. If I were to select three models from their vintage range, I'd love to hear, it would be the SP/3, from 1958, the ESP/7, from 1969, and the HV/1A, from 1974 - all of which for me look top-notch!:)

Marco.

Barry

07-10-2020, 18:47

Lol, but that still doesn't answer my question:

Are yours NOS 1970 or modern production ones? When and from where did you buy them, and how much did you pay?:)

Marco.

#395 quis vide supra

I can neither remember exactly when, nor how much, but it was about a couple of years ago, and < £100.

Marco

07-10-2020, 19:04

As far as I know, they are the original 1970's version, but since I bought them used from a member here, without box or any paperwork, cannot be absolutely certain.

What kind of jack plug does yours have?

Ah ok, I've just read your addition! If they are 1970s originals, then you got a bargain. If not, you were robbed!:D;)

It's just a normal jack plug - what's meant to be different about it?

Marco.

Barry

07-10-2020, 19:28

The plug on mine is moulded onto the coiled lead, whereas the plug on my Koss ESP-6 is a separate item, soldered onto the lead and attached by a simple cable crimp.

The moulded on plug makes me now doubt the vintage. :scratch:

I've sent you a PM with the full details.

Marco

07-10-2020, 21:07

Ah ok, mate. The plug looks pretty much like any other generic moulded one (onto a coiled lead). It's nothing special, but then back in 1976, 'fancy connectors' hadn't happened yet...

Marco.

Mikeandvan

12-10-2020, 13:00

I'd like to try the Shure, as I hate spending big bucks on carts, any advice on finding the right one and what stylus to use with it? Currently use a 401 with the Mayware tonearm, or 1210 gr with 750D.

Wakefield Turntables

12-10-2020, 17:17

It's not so much as getting "the right one" , it's more about how it's set up. You need to get decent heavy headshell, good tonearm compliance, and also that the Shure "sees" the correct amount of capacitance. Then you've got to set the bugger up. Overall you should be in for a treat but it might be a bit costlier than what you might think.

Marco

12-10-2020, 17:31

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure that the Mayware would be the best arm for an SC35C, as that tends to like a high-mass arm. However, you could certainly try it, as the cartridge doesn't cost much (if you can still find one, as they've now been discontinued), and you could implement the rider weight, as Shane outlined on your thread about tonearms.

Failing that, another recommendation, which I think would work really well on your arm would be a Goldring G800 Super-E. The G800 has a similar sonic signature to the SC35C, but the Super-E with its high-compliance would work really well on your arm.

However. if you'd like to try something modern, available brand new, which sounds really good and offers excellent SPPV, then consider a Nagaoka MP100 or MP110: https://www.musonic.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_22&products_id=31

Those really punch above their weight, and IMO, sound more musical and tonally richer than their Ortofon or AT counterparts.

Marco.

Mikeandvan

12-10-2020, 17:56

Marco

12-10-2020, 18:14

Yeah, the Shure should work fine on the Jelco, so that's defo an option, but if you're thinking of getting another MP200, then they'll probably be no contest.

To answer your question about what's the best stylus to use with the SC35C, IMO it's a genuine NOS one. The aftermarket varieties with posh tips, such as those from Jico sound quite different, but IMO, and for my tastes, a bit 'too hi-fi', and for me that's not what the Shure is about.

You don't want to spoil or alter its ballsy 'fun' sound, which IMO is the case with anything fitted other than a NOS stylus. Certainly don't touch modern replacements of such with a bargepole, as the quality is shocking!

If you decide to take a punt on the Shure, I can sort you out with a body and a NOS stylus to fit, as I have spares. Just PM me if you're interested and I'll do you a deal:cool:

Marco.

Mikeandvan

12-10-2020, 18:48

Marco

12-10-2020, 19:12

Lol... Which speakers are you referring to, the monster Lockwoods or the small, but perfectly formed Ditton 15s?:D

Ok, in terms of cartridges, yes I think that *in some areas* an MP200 would outperform the Shure. However, in the areas you mention, 60s rock and stuff, defo not. That's where the Shure excels!

As I said, if you're interested in trying one with a NOS stylus, pop me a PM:cool:

Marco.

Mikeandvan

12-10-2020, 21:22

Mikeandvan

12-10-2020, 21:23

Marco

12-10-2020, 21:44

Ok folks, remember this from WAY back on 2nd September...? I'd nearly forgotten what it looked like!:doh:

Ok, I mentioned earlier that I was hopeful of imminently landing some vintage gems, and the deed has been done! These lovely things will be winging their way from Japan to chez moi...

NOS Denon DL-103GL (Gold Limited) - introduced in 1990, in a very limited run of 2000 pieces. It is, IMO, one of the finest 103s ever made, alongside the 'M' and 'SA', the latter which the GL is near-identical to:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/nXwm1Q.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/jD9iiv.jpg

And a lovely mint example of a 1976-vintage Denon AU-310 SUT:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/Nhv1C0.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/nKyugb.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/dCNoE4.jpg

$1300 for both, shipped (insured and trackable) to the UK!:)

It's been a while since I played around with SUTs, as I've mainly been using MC head amps, such as the Paul Hynes and Lentek. However, I wanted to revisit using this little device, as it's something I first encountered in 1982, when I bought my first DL-103, and used it with that to great effect!

The sound I remember from then was so warm and musical (but not in a euphonically coloured way), rather richly toned and lifelike, with an addictive rhythmic alacrity to the bass, so I wanted to try and recreate that, used in conjunction not just with the GL, but also my NOS, stock (Nippon Columbia-vintage) DL-103.

The GL is something I've *always* wanted, but genuine NOS ones rarely come up for sale. One of my biggest regrets (and fortunately I haven't had too many in audio) was selling my DL-103SA and buying an SPU, not because I didn't enjoy the SPU, but because I should've kept the SA!:doh:

Quite simply, it was one of the best cartridges I'd ever heard, fundamentally addressing the shortfalls of the stock 103 (introducing carbon-fibre reinforced resin casing, wound with 4N gold coils), and the music it made was simply magical!

So... Now I have the GL, which is built near-identically, and am really looking forward to hearing what it does, in conjunction with the AU-310, and also the Lentek!

Happy days:cool:

Marco.

Well, after a VERY long wait [don't ask] - bearing in mind that the freakin' thing landed in the UK on 15th September!! It's finally sitting in my local sorting office:yay::carrot::carrot:

So... Once I pay the charges due tomorrow (£230-odd:rolleyes: BOO-HOO, but worth it), I should have both items delivered on Wednesday! Full report and review on this combo to follow!:cool:

Marco.

Marco

13-10-2020, 00:52

Certainly sounding mighty fine in this YouTube clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgo0K32a2Ag&list=ULAI6G1tVtSHo&index=410

:cool:

Marco.

Marco

13-10-2020, 10:40

Well, the charges have been paid and the delivery is scheduled for tomorrow, so I can barely contain my excitement!:carrot::carrot:

Meanwhile, here are some loving close-ups of my vintage Koss headphones....

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/wUPZrR.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/jvzvtX.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/HitX7P.jpg

And the equally superb sounding 'Lehmann' Chinese-made valve headphone amp, both of which compliment each other really well:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/cWrOEj.jpg

You can see the similarities: https://www.lehmannaudio.com/headphone-amplifiers.html

Main difference though is the respective price tags!!:D

:cool:

Marco.

The Black Adder

13-10-2020, 11:33

Well, the charges have been paid and the delivery is scheduled for tomorrow, so I can barely contain my excitement!:carrot::carrot:

Marco.

Great news... wow, that's an expensive import charge.

I think you will be really surprised with the quality of the AU-310. I'm loving it with the DL103-C1

It's a different flavour to the Lentek. It has a smoother presentation. Slightly more focussed too.

:)

Marco

13-10-2020, 11:43

£229.31, matey, to be precise, but hey how much would a cartridge cost today that would compete with or outperform the GL...£3k? I kid you not. Imagine getting another 20% of musical goodness from your C1 - that's what we're talking about!

It's all in the gold coils....:)

So, it was still well worth it, although I'm not happy with how I was pissed about by customs, freaking ridiculous, and will be making a complaint in due course!

Yes, it'll be interesting comparing the SUT with the Lentek, and also my £1500 Paul Hynes head amp and PSU:D

Marco.

The Black Adder

13-10-2020, 12:24

£229.31, matey, but hey, how much would a cartridge cost today that would compete with or outperform the GL...£3k? I kid you not. Imagine getting another 20% of musical goodness from your C1 - that's what we're talking about!

It's all in the gold coils....:)

So, it was still well worth it, although I'm not happy with how I was pissed about by customs, freaking ridiculous, and will be making a complaint in due course!

Yes, it'll be interesting comparing the SUT with the Lentek, and also my £1500 Paul Hynes head amp and PSU:D

Marco.

Cool.

Maybe one day I'll get the SA or maybe even the GL. At the moment, I'm more than happy with the C1. :)

One of the best sound carts I've heard. :)

Jac Hawk

13-10-2020, 12:41

Just saw the listing on ebay mate, if it's the same place you got yours i can't believe they charge delivery as well :eek::eek:

Marco

13-10-2020, 13:06

Cool.

Maybe one day I'll get the SA or maybe even the GL. At the moment, I'm more than happy with the C1. :)

One of the best sound carts I've heard. :)

Oh yeah, defo... The C1 is excellent. The GL or SA just things that bit further:)

Marco.

Marco

13-10-2020, 13:06

Just saw the listing on ebay mate, if it's the same place you got yours i can't believe they charge delivery as well :eek::eek:

Which item and seller are you referring to, mate?

Marco.

Jac Hawk

13-10-2020, 13:09

There you go dude! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Denon-DL-103GL-Gold-Limited-MC-Cartridge-4N-Gold-Wire/264852347119?hash=item3daa6e18ef:g:mdgAAOSwMXpfUFM q

Marco

13-10-2020, 13:24

Sure, but I don't get your point. He's entitled to charge for delivery from Japan to the UK, no? The cost of the cartridge is also more than fair, considering its rarity and desirability among those who appreciate its quality, so what's the problem?:scratch:

In any case, I haggled and he not only reduced the price, but also took off the delivery charge and upgraded the shipping to Express! Trust me, the seller (Yuki) is top-notch. I've bought from him before, so I knew what to expect, but he's been absolutely fantastic throughout with the transaction, including being very sympathetic with the incompetent and shambolic way UK customs handled matters - more on that later!:doh:

And... He also offered me a full refund if customs had ended up losing it, even though that the ridiculous delay and fannying about wasn't his fault.

So no, I can say nothing negative against this seller whatsoever, indeed the exact opposite, and only have high praise for him. Therefore, I would not only buy from him again, but thoroughly recommend him to any AoS member who may have been considering importing something special from Japan, but a bit wary of who they might be dealing with.

Well, rest assured that with Yuki, they'd have ZERO to worry about, because he's totally trustworthy and customer focussed, and so comes highly recommended!:cool:

Marco.

Jac Hawk

13-10-2020, 13:52

Marco

13-10-2020, 14:17

Fair enough lol, but I just don't think like that. A tightwad I ain't... If a cost seems reasonable to me [which that was], then I'll gladly pay it, and if folks are too 'shy' to haggle, then that's THEIR fault, no-one else's!:ner:;)

Marco.

RobbieGong

13-10-2020, 14:33

Marco

13-10-2020, 14:34

Plus, even if he'd offered free shipping, I'd still have paid more for a fully-insured and trackable, speedily expedited service, as I never buy anything of considerable value from abroad without taking the necessary precautions, in order to ensure (as far as possible) that it arrives quickly and safely!:)

Marco.

Marco

13-10-2020, 14:39

You've money to throw mi reckons :p :D

Ha - says he who's not exactly 'reticent' at splashing the cash on hi-fi! How much was that CB again, and how much did you spend on modding your Techy?:ner:;)

No, I'll always haggle for a discount, if it's warranted, and try and get the best price I can. However, if something needs paying, for something I want, then I'll pay it, as life's too short mate not to treat yourself and have some fun!

TBH, the hi-fi hobby in general (and forums in particular) are overpopulated by grumps and tightwads, and I refuse to entertain their misery!:D

Marco.

RobbieGong

13-10-2020, 14:52

Ha - says he who's not exactly 'reticent' at splashing the cash on hi-fi! How much was that CB again, and how much did you spend on modding your Techy?:ner:;)

No, I'll always haggle for a discount, if it's warranted, and try and get the best price I can. However, if something needs paying, for something I want, then I'll pay it, as life's too short mate not to treat yourself and have some fun!

TBH, the hi-fi hobby in general (and forums in particular) are overpopulated by grumps and tightwads, and I refuse to entertain their misery!:D

Marco.

:) lol - do remember I'm often quite cute when it comes to obtaining kit I cant normally afford, so duplicate vinyl gets sold and anything else I find around the house, in the shed that is sitting about doing nothing / not needed and could bring in a few quid. Done well that way.

The CB I spotted on an Ebay auction a few years back as part of a minty Project 10 Signature package.

I asked the seller if he'd consider selling it separately.

He said it and the deck had hardly been used hence the sale.

A bit of back and forth negotiation and it was mine for £800 - not bad considering they are £1850 new :D (Mum always said dont ask, dont get....)

Now, as for the modded Techie... :whistle:

Beobloke

13-10-2020, 16:08

not saying he isn't a top guy mate, i just think at a shade under £1k listed, free delivery would be thrown in without the need to ask or haggle, we're not all jocks with deep pockets and short arms you know, some people simply won't ask if that's the best price and it's not like we are talking about 30 or 40kg of amp, i get that it would need insuring while in the postal system but even so.

My latest turntable acquisition was from Japan, cost me £240 and came with free shipping, which surprised me. What surprised me even more was that I've done this before and the deck took nearly a month to arrive - this one turned up in just under a week.

In fact, I'm heading home to open it right now!

Jac Hawk

13-10-2020, 19:09

My latest turntable acquisition was from Japan, cost me £240 and came with free shipping, which surprised me. What surprised me even more was that I've done this before and the deck took nearly a month to arrive - this one turned up in just under a week.

In fact, I'm heading home to open it right now!

Good customer service is what I call it Adam, just coz you can charge delivery doesn’t necessarily mean you should.

Marco

13-10-2020, 19:36

For me, good customer service is epitomised far more by a seller offering to issue you with a full refund, with no qualms whatsoever (and without entering into the nightmare of claiming from the insurance), if what you've bought gets lost in the post, even when it's not his fault!;)

Marco.

Marco

14-10-2020, 15:37

Well, at LONG, LONG last my new cartridge and SUT are here!!!!:yay::yay::carrot::carrot::champagne:

And they've arrived safe and sound and in perfect condition... The box for the cartridge still even has its original cellophane wrapping - it's untouched and PROPER NOS!:cool:

With the light fading though, it's a bit too late in the day to start fitting cartridges, so that'll be a job for tomorrow, but I'll be giving the SUT a spin later with my stock vintage 103.

More feedback later!:cool:

Marco.

kininigin

14-10-2020, 16:18

Nice one Marco, you certainly have been busy lately with lots of new toys to play with. Enjoy ��

DarrenHW

14-10-2020, 16:54

Woohoo :gig:

The Black Adder

14-10-2020, 17:07

Marco

15-10-2020, 02:05

Marco

15-10-2020, 02:17

Ok, here's something you might not have considered me buying, but I'd always thought of having a compact, but high-quality SS power amp, as back up for the Copper amp, which will drive the Tannoys no problem, but crucially preserve valve life (also save electricity, as the copper amp runs hot operating in Class A), when listening to music for extended periods, especially during parties, etc...

So, I'll be welcoming this little chap to the fold soon, and what a nice clean example it is:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/uljlSl.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/pFZZnQ.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/AEWdlE.jpg

I note that there are a few mods that can be done to these amps, to make them even better, so will in due course be having a play with that. However in the meantime will just be enjoying it for what it is - it'll certainly be interesting comparing it with the Copper amp.

I'm not expecting it to compete with it, that would be ridiculous, but simply provide a more than adequate quality of sound to facilitate the occasions mentioned above, and I'm confident it will fulfil that role nicely... Full report when it arrives!:cool:

Right, folks, I'm off to bed...:goodnight:

Marco.

struth

15-10-2020, 03:12

Good amps the 306's. Geoff has a nice one too.

walpurgis

15-10-2020, 07:16

Good amps the 306's. Geoff has a nice one too.

It's a great choice as a back-up amp Marco (or as a main amplifier in many systems, as it's surprisingly capable).

Marco

15-10-2020, 07:30

Cheers, Granty. It'll be the first SS amp I've owned in about 13 years!:D

I've always wanted a back-up power amp, even should anything happen with the Copper amp, especially now, as Anthony's 170-odd miles away, and with lockdown restrictions, who knows how long it'd be until I can visit him?

Plus, a VERY long time ago (Darren will laugh here), he came round to mine and spent considerable time routing a dedicated pair of speaker cables from the hi-fi/music room upstairs, under the floorboards and down through the ceiling into the lounge, so that I could listen to my main system through the Celestions downstairs...

Remember that, Dazza? It'll be somewhere in the dusty recesses of your memory banks!:eek:

Therefore, I don't want to 'waste' the valves in the Copper amp, baring in mind that the driver valves along are £150 a pop, when listening to music in that way for extended periods of time, especially over Christmas. Yes, sometimes I will use the Copper amp, but not all the time.

So when I browsing ebay yesterday this 306 popped up, and looked minty (I only ever buy mint condition used gear, that's been well looked after) for £285, it seemed ideal for the job! And... It's tweakable!:eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

15-10-2020, 07:33

It's a great choice as a back-up amp Marco (or as a main amplifier in many systems, as it's surprisingly capable).

Cheers, Geoff. Indeed... I've read lots of positive views and reviews about it, and seems that it was built very well to start with and sounds remarkably good, outperforming many modern amps up to around a grand:)

Marco.

walpurgis

15-10-2020, 08:17

Cheers, Geoff. Indeed... I've read lots of positive views and reviews about it, and seems that it was built very well to start with and sounds remarkably good, outperforming many modern amps up to around a grand:)

Marco.

The 'current dumping' design is a clever thing, using Class A primary amplification followed by Class B to do the donkey work. The sound has a lot in common with what typifies regular Class A SS amps, those I've heard at least. Funny thing is, I wouldn't say the same about the bigger Quads, pleasant as they can be.

The Black Adder

15-10-2020, 08:43

Didn't Ian have two Quad amps at some point?

Glad the SUT is working out to how you remembered it.

Coming from not owning one before, I find it a very nice difference.

Your term 'ballsy' regarding the comparison between the denon and the Lentek is spot on.

I like how the Lentek sounds. But I like the denon for its easy way of portraying detail.

The Lentek does sound more solid state, if that makes sense, but in a good way because it does sound good.

I concur regarding the amount of time the denon takes to set its pace. It doesn't take long and I find that a quick stylus brush with a carbon fibre brush sets it on its way a little quicker. I never thought that would make a difference. But, I've never used a transformer based SUT before.

I like the fact that no batteries are used too.

The denon AU-310 was introduced in 1976 and with it sounds every bit as good today playing Goa, Dance, Dub, Electro, Rock, Classical etc... That's something nice to find.

I presume this is down to the transformers being of a very high quality.

There is one thing I'd like to know regarding the Denon, though. Would it be beneficial bypassing the bypass switch on the front? I'd like to know if anyone here would be able to shed any light on that. I take it that the switch is in the signal path?

https://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/etc/au-310(2).JPG

Some pics from the net.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-__uCGl3SSQg/VLWDykvoqmI/AAAAAAAAJCU/wmH5F8QuoWk/s1600/IMG_20140819_142735.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yASbSJBUO0w/VLWDyhsftWI/AAAAAAAAJCU/TukIbeAvZlk/s1600/IMG_20140819_142744.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6vN3Fxt1j58/VLWDyizXfUI/AAAAAAAAJCU/ufTm_WeklUM/s1600/IMG_20140819_142751.jpg

Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

Marco

15-10-2020, 10:14

The 'current dumping' design is a clever thing, using Class A primary amplification followed by Class B to do the donkey work. The sound has a lot in common with what typifies regular Class A SS amps, those I've heard at least. Funny thing is, I wouldn't say the same about the bigger Quads, pleasant as they can be.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've read. I like the design principles, but unfortunately it seems like Quad have suffered the same problems as other manufacturers have, over the years, and that's the quality of the products suffering due to cost constraints, and new designs going in a different direction that may otherwise be desired in order to increase profits.

That's probably why, like many other manufacturers, Quad's original designs are best. I'm not sure Peter Walker, had he he still been with us, would've sanctioned some of the later stuff, so yes it does appear to be somewhat of a 'lottery' which type of 'Quad sound' you get depending on what you're buying and the decade it was produced, but I'm looking forward to test driving this 306, as the only previous Quad product I've owned was an FM3!:)

Marco.

walpurgis

15-10-2020, 10:25

Marco

15-10-2020, 10:31

Didn't Ian have two Quad amps at some point?

Yes it was a pair modded 405-2s. He's gone back to his roots now, however, with a full Naim system and Isobariks!

Glad the SUT is working out to how you remembered it.

Coming from not owning one before, I find it a very nice difference.

Your term 'ballsy' regarding the comparison between the denon and the Lentek is spot on.

I like how the Lentek sounds. But I like the denon for its easy way of portraying detail.

The Lentek does sound more solid state, if that makes sense, but in a good way because it does sound good.

Yup, exactly, just a different 'take' on the music. It's the classic trade-off between transformers and transistors!;)

However, the reason that the AU-310 works so well is because the transformers were carefully chosen to optimally match the electrical and sonic characteristics of the DL-103 [crucial when choosing traffos to amplify the output of any MC cartridge], and so both items work synergistically as a PAIRING, not as separate entities, as often is the case with other MC cartridge/SUT combos when both are from different manufacturers.

Therefore, the former creates a 'musical rightness', which is exactly what you're hearing and why I wanted to revisit the AU-310 - and it's been fruitful!

And yes, it would be relatively easy for anyone competent with a soldering iron, and a little knowledge, to bypass the switch. It probably won't make a lot of difference, sonically (as it's been well-designed and executed, in the classic Japanese tradition), but worth doing, simply because we're purists:D

Therefore, I'll have that done to mine in due course, as well as fitting better phono plugs to the output cables, as things have defo moved on in that area since the 70s! That done, however, I'll leave it as it is, without altering any cables, as those are fine as they are.

So are you going to tackle the job yourself and see what improvements, if any, you get?

Marco.

Marco

15-10-2020, 10:41

Some suggest Quad amplifiers have a 'family sound'. They don't. The 303, 405, 306 and 606 each have rather different ways of presenting music. The 606, 707, 909 and QSP etc., sound very similar to each other though. I wouldn't mind an early 909 (in black of course :)) actually, it's a big softy with a laid back benign character, powerful though, but not as involving as the 306.

Interesting, mate. The "big softy* thing wouldn't interest me though, as I'm not into that type of presentation. That's one of the reasons I opted for the 306, as it's known to be a punchy and dynamic performer. I don't do 'pipe & slippers'.

I suspect Quad amps may have all had a 'family sound' had PW still been around and responsible for the design and 'voicing' of the company's products, but I reckon that the varying sonic signatures/musical presentations of the different amps in the Quad range simply reflect the 'goals' of the company at the time, and the direction that was being taken by those who were in charge.

Marco.

struth

15-10-2020, 10:52

Quad I had(the vena2) was a nice amp and dac. good sound from it and not bad value

The Black Adder

15-10-2020, 13:17

Yes it was a pair modded 405-2s. He's gone back to his roots now, however, with a full Naim system and Isobariks!

Yup, exactly, just a different 'take' on the music. It's the classic trade-off between transformers and transistors!;)

However, the reason that the AU-310 works so well is because the transformers were carefully chosen to optimally match the electrical and sonic characteristics of the DL-103 [crucial when choosing traffos to amplify the output of any MC cartridge], and so both items work synergistically as a PAIRING, not as separate entities, as often is the case with other MC cartridge/SUT combos when both are from different manufacturers.

Therefore, the former creates a 'musical rightness', which is exactly what you're hearing and why I wanted to revisit the AU-310 - and it's been fruitful!

And yes, it would be relatively easy for anyone competent with a soldering iron, and a little knowledge, to bypass the switch. It probably won't make a lot of difference, sonically (as it's been well-designed and executed, in the classic Japanese tradition), but worth doing, simply because we're purists:D

Therefore, I'll have that done to mine in due course, as well as fitting better phono plugs to the output cables, as things have defo moved on in that area since the 70s! That done, however, I'll leave it as it is, without altering any cables, as those are fine as they are.

So are you going to tackle the job yourself and see what improvements, if any, you get?

Marco.

Cool... To be honest I think someone with the knowhow would be best to do it. Maybe Alan (Firebottle)?

I'm just enjoying it as it is at the moment, it has a stonking sound. :)

Yeah, maybe the switch won't make a jot of difference but I don't think I'd ever need to use the bypass, so it might has well be disconnected. lol :)

Firebottle

15-10-2020, 13:42

I had the AU-320 SUT with two ratios, another excellent performer. On close inspection I came to the conclusion that the switches were of excellent quality with no need to remove or replace.

With dexterity the switch in the 310 could be dismantled and the all the contacts cleaned, but it is fiddly.
I could wire it out of circuit if chosen to Josie.

DarrenHW

15-10-2020, 18:12

Cheers, Guys... As you may guess from the time of this post, I've been up late listening to music, so I guess that says it all! :eyebrows:

Yes, the SUT is excellent and pretty much everything I'd remembered it to be. It doesn't trounce the Lentek, but simply presents an alternative 'take' on the music. It may not be just quite as ballsy and up front as the latter, but the midrange is more open and textured, and the bass seems to be a little deeper and more rhythmic, with increased 'boogie factor'.

It certainly allows music to motor along in an informative and fun way! I'm also finding that it gets better the longer a signal is running through it, which I've found before with transformers, in that they sound better after 'warming up', so yes I'm delighted with the SUT, and the good thing is that unlike with the Lentek you're not worrying about batteries!:)

Darren, I think you'll like it:cool:

Marco.

It sounds like I'd like it! I'm getting into a "less ballsy" sound lately as the way I listen to music at home has changed. I'm glad it was worth the wait, I can't wait to hear it or the rest of your system. How long has it been??

Nice purchase on the 306, I really like the look of them, but have never heard one. You might have to look at adjusting the input sensitivity as a priority. If it's anything like the 405 it will be loaded for a passive input, so will need adjustment to mate well with the Croft.

Plus, a VERY long time ago (Darren will laugh here), he came round to mine and spent considerable time routing a dedicated pair of speaker cables from the hi-fi/music room upstairs, under the floorboards and down through the ceiling into the lounge, so that I could listen to my main system through the Celestions downstairs...

Remember that, Dazza? It'll be somewhere in the dusty recesses of your memory banks!:eek:

Remember?!? I've tried to forget! Drilling through100+ year old 3.5" Old Growth Pine joists, on something like 12" spacing, with just a couple of boards up has scarred me for life! I'm happy you're eventually going to put them to use, it'll stop me from resentfully looking at the tails every time I come round to yours :lol:

Marco

15-10-2020, 20:20

It sounds like I'd like it! I'm getting into a "less ballsy" sound lately as the way I listen to music at home has changed. I'm glad it was worth the wait, I can't wait to hear it or the rest of your system. How long has it been??

Your guess is as good as mine. 3 years?:eek:

Nice purchase on the 306, I really like the look of them, but have never heard one. You might have to look at adjusting the input sensitivity as a priority. If it's anything like the 405 it will be loaded for a passive input, so will need adjustment to mate well with the Croft.

So how would I adjust the input sensitivity, and what would you envisage happening otherwise? I'm not really au fait with that kind of thing, although Ian (one of my mates, don't think you've met him), brought round his 405-2s to mine a few times and they worked fine with the Croft. I guess we'll see, though.

Remember?!? I've tried to forget! Drilling through100+ year old 3.5" Old Growth Pine joists, on something like 12" spacing, with just a couple of boards up has scarred me for life! I'm happy you're eventually going to put them to use, it'll stop me from resentfully looking at the tails every time I come round to yours :lol:

Ha - just glad you didn't tell anyone about those dead bodies you found...:oops::uhho:

Marco.

walpurgis

15-10-2020, 20:32

So how would I adjust the input sensitivity, and what would you envisage happening otherwise? I'm not really au fait with that kind of thing, although Ian (one of my mates, don't think you've met him), brought round his 405-2s to mine a few times and they worked fine with the Croft. I guess we'll see, though.

Marco.

Very simple. Here.

https://i.imgur.com/MMiZ0rP.png

Marco

15-10-2020, 20:45

walpurgis

15-10-2020, 20:52

You won't do any harm if (obviously) you start with the volume down, but you could find the advance a bit abrupt. The mod is only one easily accessible resistor. Not needed to do it on mine used with the passive pre-amps.

walpurgis

15-10-2020, 20:55

By the way, I often try new pre-amp/power amp combos with a passive between them first, just to be on the safe side and to gauge the gain.

Marco

15-10-2020, 21:01

Yeah, good idea, mate. I hear what you're saying about the potential outcome. I also have an LDR I could use, but in any case, with any new amps I'm using, I always start off with the volume down low, just to be safe!:)

If the input sensitivity needs adjusting though, I'm just wondering which value of resistors to choose? Probably best with both an 18 and 27R, and experiment to find the sweet spot.

Marco.

Light Dependant Resistor

15-10-2020, 21:28

So how would I adjust the input sensitivity,Marco.

Ideally all equipment we use, should match the level of the source media we purchase or use.

If used with a passive, then there is no need to change the sensitivity with a 306, as it then is perfectly suited to line level output from almost every known source component. This is because the RMS level in media we use rarely exceeds 350mv , The source component equipment can have, and usually does have much higher specification, but the media itself ie CD's Flac files etc in my experience never exceeds the 350mv mark, see attached which is a flac file being read by Audacity, the RMS level is in light blue

Level changes away from the source level, appeasing other equipment's lack of sensitivity,( IMO then on entirely the wrong path ) is then neatly avoided.

Barry

15-10-2020, 21:58

Cheers, Geoff. However, I've no idea what the likely result will be of using it with the Croft 'as is'... Do you think it would have too much or not enough gain? I know you don't know the figures, but just your gut feeling?:)

No idea what the input sensitivity is of my Copper amp, so that's one to ask Anthony. Like I said though, a mate brought round his 405-2s and they were fine, so is the gain on the 306 different from that on the 405s?

Marco.

The sensitivity of the Quad 405-2 is 500mV for full output. That used to be standard for the Quad solid-state power amplifiers: 303 and 405. I don't know about the 306, but the 510 and 520 have an adjustable sensitivity, nominally 775mV.

Marco

15-10-2020, 22:20

The sensitivity of the Quad 405-2 is 500mV for full output. That used to be standard for the Quad solid-state power amplifiers: 303 and 405. I don't know about the 306, but the 510 and 520 have an adjustable sensitivity, nominally 775mV.

According to the info Geoff stated in post 453, it's 375mV, so does that mean that the 405-2 is less or more sensitive than the 306?

To get a proper handle on this though, I shall have to ask Anthony what the sensitivity is of the Copper amp, so I can gauge how well my Croft preamp is liable to match the 306 as standard.

Marco.

Marco

15-10-2020, 22:29

Ideally all equipment we use, should match the level of the source media we purchase or use.

If used with a passive, then there is no need to change the sensitivity with a 306, as it then is perfectly suited to line level output from almost every known source component. This is because the RMS level in media we use rarely exceeds 350mv , The source component equipment can have, and usually does have much higher specification, but the media itself ie CD's Flac files etc in my experience never exceeds the 350mv mark, see attached which is a flac file being read by Audacity, the RMS level is in light blue

Level changes away from the source level, appeasing other equipment's lack of sensitivity,( IMO then on entirely the wrong path ) is then neatly avoided.

Cheers, Chris! Btw, I hope you're well and staying safe, mate:)

Hey, at long last I'll be able to try your LDR, which might match really well with the 306... On that note, and just to clarify, in terms of the connections at the rear of the unit... I'm presuming that the two phono sockets separated from the rest, on the far right, are the outputs to the power amp?

Also, of the other three sets of sockets to the left of that, what are the differences, if any, and which one should I connect to my CD player? Furthermore, in terms of the input selector switch, it just seems to continually click round, without limit, so how do you know which inputs it's activating, other than simply listening for when the sound comes through or not?:)

Marco.

Light Dependant Resistor

16-10-2020, 00:23

Hi Marco
Yes safe and well, trust the same there for you and your partner.

Yes RCA pair further from the 3 inputs are the outputs, The input switch selecting the series pair anodes , is a bit different to normal in that the needed
contact, is made prior to falling into its rest position. the rest position being off. Seen here with a internal image its a well made switch.

Input 1 which is the RCA pair closer to the output is then selected with the front panel switch furthest to the left , but then allowing to be just off the off rest position.
input 2 then follows the next rest position.

Looking forward to how it goes. I have 24 boards in production so will send you an updated main board before Xmas.

Cheers / Chris

walpurgis

16-10-2020, 07:08

According to the info Geoff stated in post 453, it's 375mV, so does that mean that the 405-2 is less or more sensitive than the 306?

Marco.

A bit less.

anthonyTD

16-10-2020, 08:34

Input Sensitivity of the copper amps [depending on the feedback position] around 500mv.
Cheers, Geoff. However, I've no idea what the likely result will be of using it with the Croft 'as is'... Do you think it would have too much or not enough gain? I know you don't know the figures, but just your gut feeling?:)

No idea what the input sensitivity is of my Copper amp, so that's one to ask Anthony. Like I said though, a mate brought round his 405-2s and they were fine, so is the gain on the 306 different from that on the 405s?

Marco.

Marco

16-10-2020, 09:01

Cheers, mate (and Geoff), so that's interesting... The *lower* the figure, the higher the sensitivity? So if the 405-2s are 500mV, as Barry says, that'll explain why Ian's worked fine with the Croft, as it's the same as the Copper amp:)

So is the 125mV of difference in sensitivity between the 306 and the 405s (with the the former being 375mV) likely to be a major issue?

Marco.

Marco

16-10-2020, 09:22

Hi Chris,

Glad that you guys are safe and well. NZ seems to be one of the safest places to be, and have dealt with the virus pretty well:)

All noted, except for the input switch selector, which appears to just go round and round with no 'rest position'... Normally input selectors only have a small number of available steps/positions, and 'lock' either way at the end of those.

Therefore, in that respect, I don't understand what you mean by 'furthest to the left'...?:hmm:

In terms of boards, I still have the first ones you sent me lying there. I've forgotten how to fit them now, but will have a look. If it's all a bit too complicated though, baring in mind that I am *a total numpty* when it comes to these things, I may just return the unit to you, along with the 'old boards', for you to fit the latest ones, if that's ok?:cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco
Yes safe and well, trust the same there for you and your partner.

Yes RCA pair further from the 3 inputs are the outputs, The input switch selecting the series pair anodes , is a bit different to normal in that the needed
contact, is made prior to falling into its rest position. the rest position being off. Seen here with a internal image its a well made switch.

Input 1 which is the RCA pair closer to the output is then selected with the front panel switch furthest to the left , but then allowing to be just off the off rest position.
input 2 then follows the next rest position.

Looking forward to how it goes. I have 24 boards in production so will send you an updated main board before Xmas.

Cheers / Chris

Light Dependant Resistor

16-10-2020, 10:19

Hi Chris,

Glad that you guys are safe and well. NZ seems to be one of the safest places to be, and have dealt with the virus pretty well:)

All noted, except for the input switch selector, which appears to just go round and round with no 'rest position'... Normally input selectors only have a small number of available steps/positions, and 'lock' either way at the end of those.

Therefore, in that respect, I don't understand what you mean by 'furthest to the left'...?:hmm:

In terms of boards, I still have the first ones you sent me lying there. I've forgotten how to fit them now, but will have a look. If it's all a bit too complicated though, baring in mind that I am *a total numpty* when it comes to these things, I may just return the unit to you, along with the 'old boards', for you to fit the latest ones, if that's ok?:cool:

Marco.

It is a 11 contact position switch, but only the first three contacts are used, as it was not supplied with a stopper position for 3 inputs ... But the front panel left knob should turn to the left and reach a point where it stops, If you want to try it before returning here, establish the stop position furthest to the left , then as the switch reaches a point midway between getting to the next rest spot that will be input 1... it then proceeds like into a little valley the rest spot , then out of that valley is input 2 and proceed on for Input 3. its quite a nice switch as it really contacts vs other switches that don't contact as well.

Certainly pack it up and return here, for updating, I will send you a PM with my details.

Cheers / Chris

Marco

16-10-2020, 10:48

Hi Chris,

It is a 11 contact position switch, but only the first three contacts are used, as it was not supplied with a stopper position for 3 inputs ... But the front panel left knob should turn to the left and reach a point where it stops...

That's that point mate, it doesn't! Just turns round and round, and round, whilst clicking at certain points., so it's impossible to determine the start or end point, or which input you're on...:D

Anyway, thanks, I'll reply to your PM later - got to go out soon.

Marco.

DarrenHW

16-10-2020, 14:29

Looks like you're ok on the sensitivity front then. Sorry for any confusion caused. It was a major improvement for me when I adjusted the 405's, but it was so long ago I can't remember from what I adjusted it from or to...

Marco

16-10-2020, 15:09

DarrenHW

16-10-2020, 17:21

Hi Darren,

What about the fact that the 306 has a sensitivity of 375mA, and therefore is more sensitive than the 405s, won't that be an issue, or is the difference not large enough to worry about?:)

Marco.

I think the difference between the 306 and your copper amp is negligible, but as you know I'm far from an expert in these matters.

I seem to remember I made a pretty significant jump on the 405 (possibly .5V to 1.5V), but that's just a guess and also with no knowledge of the gain on my Croft which is an old model I bought second hand. Before I made the change to the 405, the volume pot on the Croft was all or nothing within ~1/8 of a turn, but I remember that being a common complaint of the new edition Micro 25 (3-4 years ago), didn't Ken (Qwinn) commission a zero gain 25 for this reason? It wasn't just that it made the volume pot useable though, everything sounded so much better I remember saying to you at the time that it was like have a new amp, the difference was that significant.

From all the input from folk far more knowledgeable than me, I think my issue was local and you'll be fine.

struth

16-10-2020, 17:30

125ma shouldn't be an issue Marco

Marco

16-10-2020, 17:46

Cheers, guys. Good stuff. I shall report in full when she lands! Just got notification to say it's been shipped:)

Marco.

Marco

18-10-2020, 13:10

Well, the cartridge and SUT landed on Wednesday and I've been really enjoying both since! The 103GL in particular is everything I'd hoped it would be, and sounds simply STUNNING!:eek::wow:

More on that later, including a review of my full impressions... In the meantime. some pics of her in my Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Kondo SL-115 solid-silver headshell leads, and in situ on my T/T, after having just fitted it with the Houdini:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/R0Jn8q.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jAyeSW.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/cJ9UFC.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/IROHZS.jpg

New Funk Firm APM Achromat (double-layered with a glass base, and which retails for £170). More on that in the forthcoming separate review):

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/ajjbk7.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/iFuwmN.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/ATflzO.jpg

More to follow shortly!:cool:

Marco.

prestonchipfryer

18-10-2020, 13:15

Well, the cartridge and SUT landed on Wednesday and I've been really enjoying both since! The 103GL in particular is everything I'd hoped it would be, and sounds simply STUNNING!:eek::wow:

More on that later, including a review of my full impressions... In the meantime. some pics of her in my Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Kondo solid-silver headshell leads, and in situ on my T/T, after having just fitted it with the Houdini:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/R0Jn8q.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jAyeSW.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/cJ9UFC.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/IROHZS.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/ajjbk7.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/iFuwmN.jpg

More to follow shortly!:cool:

Marco.

Great pictures show clearly how it fits.

Marco

18-10-2020, 14:49

Cheers, mate. That was my intention, to show some nice clear shots in good light, illustrating its correct fitment.

It's piss-easy to do, when you know how and have practiced a few times, but as with anything else, rewards you with *meticulous* attention to detail, in terms of its set up, and also optimising the installation of the cartridge, ensuring that azimuth and VTA are SPOT ON:)

The Houdini is a genius invention from Arthur, and ably transforms the performance of every cartridge attached. I think that I'll paint the nylon screws black though, to make them less obvious!:D

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

18-10-2020, 14:52

Proper analogue porn well done Marco!

Marco

18-10-2020, 15:29

Cheers, dude. Btw, the Kondo leads are superb - best I've heard by a mile!:clap::thumbsup:

Marco.

struth

18-10-2020, 15:44

looking good mate... enjoy your tunes. good to see you with main system running again.

Marco

18-10-2020, 16:29

Cheers, mate. It's certainly keeping me occupied!:D

Marco.

struth

18-10-2020, 16:34

drowns out the :chainsaw: :lolsign: not had mine on for an age... ive given up on it due to the idiot next door. just use the cans..

Marco

18-10-2020, 16:51

Aye, it's amazing what it drowns out, including Del's 'requests'... 'WANT chips'. 'WANT Chocolate', 'WANT a drinky', WANT a foot rub, lol. Soz, can't hear what you're saying, pet... Wossat, you WANT a slap?:eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

20-10-2020, 17:20

Well, the Quad arrived today, and for the money sounds fab! I'm very impressed indeed by the quality of sound (huge, dynamic and detailed) this dinky little amp produces. It certainly has no problem whatsoever driving the Tannoys - well I guess it wouldn't with them being 95db efficient. 50W is certainly, erm. 'adequate'!:eek::eyebrows:

In terms of gain, I needn't have worried, as although the 306 is certainly sensitive, it turns out that Copper amp (on its current feedback settings) is even more sensitive:D So... No problems with any overloading!

I'll comment more on the 306, after it's been properly warmed up, and I get more used to its sonic signature, but it's certainly the best £285 I've ever spent on an amplifier, thus it will provide adequate back up for the Copper amp, when used in the sorts of situations I outlined earlier.

Delighted:cool:

Marco.

DarrenHW

20-10-2020, 18:06

I'm pleased it's a "good fit", sorry for casting any doubt. I'm glad you're happy with it, I'm looking forward to it myself providing this "firebreak" is only temporary?

Marco

20-10-2020, 19:00

I'm pleased it's a "good fit", sorry for casting any doubt. I'm glad you're happy with it, I'm looking forward to it myself providing this "firebreak" is only temporary?

Cheers, mate. It's great! A perfect 'second amp' - well behaved and just does what it says on the tin. It would be interesting having two, one for each channel, as some folks do to great effect. That's something I may look at in due course, and perhaps also adding a Quad 34 preamp to match!:eyebrows:

It would make a nice little 'unobtrusive' solid-state alternative amp combo, then just keep the Croft for the Copper amp... Decisions, lol :hmm:

The Copper amp is still significantly better, as you can imagine, but not to the extent that when I switch to the 306, that sounds 'broken', no siree... Far from it. It's just a different type of listen, and still eminently enjoyable. Furthermore, today I plumbed in the LDR (Stereo Coffee) of Chris', and it's SUPERB - best 'passive' I've heard so far by a country mile - and it goes great with both the Copper amp and 306!

So that's in the equation, too... And there's MORE, lol - I'm also experimenting with cables. I've recently gone for Mark Grant HDX1s throughout, for interconnects (and digital coax between the Sony transport and DAC), which for me are his best cables yet, and superb value. I've also taken delivery of some of his 6mm Van Damme speaker cable, which I'll be comparing with my rather more expensive VDH 'The Wind', so we'll also see how that goes:cool:

Marco.

Marco

20-10-2020, 19:24

Oh, I meant to say, in terms of the 'Firebreak' thing, barring any major disasters. which I can't see, it's defo temporary, and thus due to end on Nov 9th. What system is adopted after that, however (the most important thing) remains to be seen...

However, I believe that the Welsh First Minister will be revealing 'the plan' later in the week, so we'll defo hook up mate for a sesh, when the situation permits:)

Marco.

walpurgis

20-10-2020, 19:24

Glad you like the 306 Marco, I thought you would :). I'd give the 34 (and 44) pre-amps a miss though, they really don't do the Quad power amps justice in my opinion.

Marco

20-10-2020, 19:27

Very pleased indeed with it, Geoff. So what's bad about the Quad preamps, and also in your opinion, which is the better of the two?

Marco.

walpurgis

20-10-2020, 19:36

Very pleased indeed with it, Geoff. So what's bad about the Quad preamps, and also in your opinion, which is the better of the two?

Marco.

I found them bland sounding and not very revealing. Some seem able to live with them, but not me. There's nothing to choose between them soundwise.

Marco

20-10-2020, 19:48

Mmm... That's rather disappointing. I don't doubt what you're saying, but it may be alleviated by some judicious cap upgrades... I've found that before with vintage preamps. Often there's a good sound struggling to get out because of either poor quality, or ageing out of spec electronic components.

I may need to investigate and see for myself!:)

Marco.

southall-1998_mk2

20-10-2020, 19:56

Cheers, mate. It's great! A perfect 'second amp' - well behaved and just does what it says on the tin. It would be interesting having two, one for each channel, as some folks do to great effect. That's something I may look at in due course, and perhaps also adding a Quad 34 preamp to match!:eyebrows:

It would make a nice little 'unobtrusive' solid-state alternative amp combo, then just keep the Croft for the Copper amp... Decisions, lol :hmm:

The Copper amp is still significantly better, as you can imagine, but not to the extent that when I switch to the 306, that sounds 'broken', no siree... Far from it. It's just a different type of listen, and still eminently enjoyable. Furthermore, today I plumbed in the LDR (Stereo Coffee) of Chris', and it's SUPERB - best 'passive' I've heard so far by a country mile - and it goes great with both the Copper amp and 306!

So that's in the equation, too... And there's MORE, lol - I'm also experimenting with cables. I've recently gone for Mark Grant HDX1s throughout, for interconnects (and digital coax between the Sony transport and DAC), which for me are his best cables yet, and superb value. I've also taken delivery of some of his 6mm Van Damme speaker cable, which I'll be comparing with my rather more expensive VDH 'The Wind', so we'll also see how that goes:cool:

Marco.

Those Van Damme Copper Hi-Fi Speaker Cables are very good value. How many meters did you opt for?

S.

Marco

20-10-2020, 20:12

Hi Shane,

Although my speakers are reasonably near the electronics (spaced fairly widely apart), my amp is on 15 layers of Mana supports, and so rather 'airborne', lol (it's at shoulder height, and I'm 6ft2ins)...:eyebrows:

Therefore, a fair bit of cable is needed to reach it, especially the length supplying the L/H speaker, as my rack isn't in the middle of the speakers, but instead to the side of the R/H one (when viewed from my seating position). Plus, I dislike unequal lengths of speaker cable, preferring instead to have some excess on one side, in order to keep the lengths the same.

So... With the above in mind, I opted for a 7m pair, allowing a little extra length for routing the cables neatly and unobtrusively:)

Marco.

Marco

20-10-2020, 20:52

walpurgis

21-10-2020, 06:51

Wonder what this would sound like with a 306: https://www.hifix.co.uk/quad-elite-pre-pre-amplifier

The Elite seems reasonably well regarded... Any views, Geoff?

Or this perhaps this new one on the block: https://www.whathifi.com/news/new-quad-artera-preamp-the-return-of-tilt-control

Marco.

I've not tried the Artera/Elite gear Marco. I get the impression from what I've read here and there, that it's better sounding than earlier offerings. Of older Quad stuff, it's always been the power amps that shine.

Marco

21-10-2020, 07:21

Yup, that's also the impression I've been getting whilst researching things...

Didn't realise that Quad preamps from an earlier era were quite so coloured. It's baffling, as it goes against their mantra of 'the closest approach to the original sound', so I don't understand what they were trying to achieve, in an era where Peter Walker championed his 'purist' approach..

Why hobble an essentially neutral, accurate sounding power amp, with the opposite in a preamp? Doesn't make sense to me... Perhaps it's easier to build a good power amp than a good preamp?:scratch:

Anyway, if at a later stage I decide to get an SS preamp for the 306, it'll be a more modern one.

Marco.

Barry

21-10-2020, 12:31

All pre amps of the late '60s were sonically poor compared to their partnering poweramps, irrespective of being valve or solid-state designs.

Outfits like Dada, NetAudio and Red Hill Audio offer various modifications to the Quad 33 which go some way towards improving the performance. But unless you can pick one up cheap and in good condition (and admire the styling), then I would say use a passive volume control and input switch box with a modern phonostage.

Marco

21-10-2020, 12:40

Thanks, Barry. yes there is the option of modifying the 33, as I've already touched upon. Do you, or indeed anyone else here, know how effective they are, as in the 'before & after' result, sonically, of a stock vs modded 33?

Essentially, how much better does it get after being 'doctored'?:)

Marco.

Marco

21-10-2020, 17:17

Anyone...?? Come on, surely some of you Quad fans must've modified a 33 preamp!:ner:

So, don't be shy, tell me what difference it made:D

Marco.

DarrenHW

21-10-2020, 17:25

Cheers, mate. It's great! A perfect 'second amp' - well behaved and just does what it says on the tin. It would be interesting having two, one for each channel, as some folks do to great effect. That's something I may look at in due course, and perhaps also adding a Quad 34 preamp to match!:eyebrows:

It would make a nice little 'unobtrusive' solid-state alternative amp combo, then just keep the Croft for the Copper amp... Decisions, lol :hmm:

The Copper amp is still significantly better, as you can imagine, but not to the extent that when I switch to the 306, that sounds 'broken', no siree... Far from it. It's just a different type of listen, and still eminently enjoyable. Furthermore, today I plumbed in the LDR (Stereo Coffee) of Chris', and it's SUPERB - best 'passive' I've heard so far by a country mile - and it goes great with both the Copper amp and 306!

If I were to go down the passive route, I'd go LDR in favour of any Quad preamp (purely based on internet research). The Quad 66 is intriguing, although my interest is really due to my fondness for the partnering "Control Panel", but maybe that's just because I still miss my B&O Master Control Panel 5000, which I think is far sexier, but if that Liquorice Allsort system sounded as good as it looked I wouldn't have got rid of it.

So that's in the equation, too... And there's MORE, lol - I'm also experimenting with cables. I've recently gone for Mark Grant HDX1s throughout, for interconnects (and digital coax between the Sony transport and DAC), which for me are his best cables yet, and superb value. I've also taken delivery of some of his 6mm Van Damme speaker cable, which I'll be comparing with my rather more expensive VDH 'The Wind', so we'll also see how that goes:cool:

Marco.

You're not wrong, those IC's are a proper bargain. I think I'll pick myself up a pair when I eventually get the Garrard spinning again. My current DIY efforts were built with Mogami 2549 / MS Audio, what were you using before the HDX?