View Full Version : Boris big win.
chris@panteg
13-12-2019, 10:20
Did Corbyn get what he deserved? I think so and his momentum nutters have destroyed the labour party and ensured a decade of hard right tory rule thanks a bunch for that.
Feel free to disagree but that's how I feel.
as much as anything, its the you mustnt say this, that or next thing etc people who along with european idiology that has produced the hard right vote.
The Labour vote is dead now as is the party, mostly because many working class folk are wealthier, own their houses, have 2 cars etc...labour's answer was... we will go further left, not because the people want, but because they want it for the people.
snp have evolved as a party and keep evolving and look how well they do
I totally agree
I never thought I would ever vote for an upper class twit like Boris but found myself with no viable alternative
Hopefully Labour will realise that the ordinary people have no interest in their political correctness and looney left crap
as much as anything, its the you mustnt say this, that or next thing etc people who along with european idiology that has produced the hard right vote.
The Labour vote is dead now as is the party, mostly because many working class folk are wealthier, own their houses, have 2 cars etc...labour's answer was... we will go further left, not because the people want, but because they want it for the people.
snp have evolved as a party and keep evolving and look how well they do
Yeah but that contradicts the Labour shadow front bench that kept telling us about the 14m people living in poverty !. I think basically your right though.
Yeah but that contradicts the Labour shadow front bench that kept telling us about the 14m people living in poverty !. I think basically your right though.There are a lot on poverty line no doubt, but how many actually bother to vote these days? Many probably aren't signed up, others can't be bothered etc.
Thatchers idea of folk owning their house to trap them as non lefty labour voters worked. Labour's only successes have been new Labour which was almost leftwing tory.
Hibster_2000
13-12-2019, 12:26
There were a lot of young people who registered to vote, but were turned away because they were not on the list. I saw a few at the local polling station.
Spectral Morn
13-12-2019, 12:26
The UK is fucked. English Nationalism has destroyed the union, Brexit will destroy the UK, everyone reading this will suffer, anyone who voted conservative, shame on you. Boris is a liar, a smoke and mirrors con man and the conservatives do not give a fuck for anyone but themselves. Did you watch what I watched, did you see and hear what I did, and still you gave them your vote.
For the rest of us we are at the mercy of little englander europhobia nationalism, Scotland will try to leave, and northern ireland had been thrown under the bus. I am scared about what will happen here, but as long as its here and not on the streets of British cities none of you who voted consevative will give a fuck.
Worst day in the history of the UK, next to brexit vote.
:(
Lawrence001
13-12-2019, 12:47
Shame on those who exercised their democratic choice and voted for the party they believed offered the best choice for the nation (or the least worst in some cases)?
Those with that attitude in politics and the media can actually thank themselves for the Conservative party's success as that's mainly what drove the landslide IMHO.
Spectral Morn
13-12-2019, 12:47
Neil, I am reluctant to comment on any political thread on a Hi-Fi forum but, I entirely agree with your comments.
I know there will be push back against what I said, but its how I feel, and I needed to say it. Time will tell, whether things are going to be as bad as I fear, or worse.
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 12:53
The UK is fucked. English Nationalism has destroyed the union, Brexit will destroy the UK, everyone reading this will suffer, anyone who voted conservative, shame on you. Boris is a liar, a smoke and mirrors con man and the conservatives do not give a fuck for anyone but themselves. Did you watch what I watched, did you see and hear what I did, and still you gave them your vote.
For the rest of us we are at the mercy of little englander europhobia nationalism, Scotland will try to leave, and northern ireland had been thrown under the bus. I am scared about what will happen here, but as long as its here and not on the streets of British cities none of you who voted consevative will give a fuck.
Worst day in the history of the UK, next to brexit vote.
:(
By English Nationalism you mean Brexit, also popular in Wales...…..And Scottish and Welsh independence have long sought to 'destroy the union'. No one should feel shame for voting Tory with an opposition like Corbyn & Co. Though I agree Boris is an opportunist with no real conviction. I'm guessing you're predicting the rise of Fascism in the UK, nothing so wild will happen, Brits simply aren't up for extremism of any kind.
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 12:59
Overall I think this version of the Tory party are going to be damaging for country, like Cameron they are young and inexperienced, and seem to have a nasty anti working class streak in them, I don't like them one bit, but as others have said, Labour simply did themselves no favours with Corbyn & McDonnell at the helm, too much virtue signalling, too many wild promises like the 4 day week - not a bad idea in itself, but they should have had the sense to introduce the idea once and if they had gained power.
Lawrence001
13-12-2019, 13:01
I'm waiting for the Boris Blackshirts to start patrolling the streets and concentration camps opening for those who are complaining about the result, as presumably that's what they're predicting when they refer to far right and fascism. Let's see how true their predictions really are.
Also too many sweeties offered by Labour me thinks. If something looks to good to be true it normally is.
Spectral Morn
13-12-2019, 13:07
By English Nationalism you mean Brexit, also popular in Wales...…..And Scottish and Welsh independence have long sought to 'destroy the union'. No one should feel shame for voting Tory with an opposition like Corbyn & Co. Though I agree Boris is an opportunist with no real conviction. I'm guessing you're predicting the rise of Fascism in the UK, nothing so wild will happen, Brits simply aren't up for extremism of any kind.
Brexit will plunge the UK into a commercial wilderness, everything will cost more, business will fold, more will leave, unemployment will rise, food costs will rise, holidays will cost more, you will all be very much the poorer. Negotiating trade agreements will take years and will not be so favourable as the UK had. The tories are liars and con artists, they are only interested in lining their pockets and that of the very rich. The UK will not be better off outside the EU, everyone reading this will go to their graves much, much poorer than they are now.
Re Northern Ireland there will be a boarder up the Irish sea, everything will cost us more, this will damage business and put many out of business, this boarder will push the United Ireland agenda closer and the Unionists will push back. There will be a rise in murder and bombings here.
And re English Nationalism its thriving. I am sure many in 30s Germany thought as you did.
Patrick Dixon
13-12-2019, 13:20
Neil, I am reluctant to comment on any political thread on a Hi-Fi forum but, I entirely agree with your comments.
+2. The problem was there could never be a good outcome given the choices we had.
walpurgis
13-12-2019, 14:02
+2. The problem was there could never be a good outcome given the choices we had.
Spot on. The election was like a choice between Syphillis or Hepatitis.
Audio Al
13-12-2019, 16:08
NOW Let's get Brexit done :D
Lawrence001
13-12-2019, 16:55
NOW Let's get Brexit done :D[emoji41]
I thought a lot of members of this forum were fairly mature (in age) yet the doom mongering over Brexit suggests nobody can remember pre EU years.
Anybody heard of a plane called Concord?
In case you haven't it was an Anglo-French collaboration dating back to the 60s, or did I imagine that?
Anybody ever drunk Australian or Californian or Chilean wine? You can't have because none of those countries are in the EU so we apparently can't trade with them
I thought I could remember my Dad owning a 1969 Citroën but must have imagined it because that was pre EU and we can't possibly have bought anything from France if we weren't in the EU
We won't be able to get medical staff for hospitals. Anybody ever been treated by an Asian doctor or Nurse? No you haven't, those countries aren't in the EU so their citizens can't possibly work here.
Firebottle
13-12-2019, 18:03
It's Concorde, one of the most amazing machines of recent history.
It's Concorde, one of the most amazing machines of recent history.
Nope
You imagined it
Apparently it is absolutely impossible that could ever have been a joint business enterprise between us and France before the EU
It's Concorde, one of the most amazing machines of recent history.
And a tragedy it's been consigned to history.
Patrick Dixon
13-12-2019, 18:41
I thought a lot of members of this forum were fairly mature (in age) yet the doom mongering over Brexit suggests nobody can remember pre EU years.
Anybody heard of a plane called Concord?
In case you haven't it was an Anglo-French collaboration dating back to the 60s, or did I imagine that?
Anybody ever drunk Australian or Californian or Chilean wine? You can't have because none of those countries are in the EU so we apparently can't trade with them
I thought I could remember my Dad owning a 1969 Citroën but must have imagined it because that was pre EU and we can't possibly have bought anything from France if we weren't in the EU
We won't be able to get medical staff for hospitals. Anybody ever been treated by an Asian doctor or Nurse? No you haven't, those countries aren't in the EU so their citizens can't possibly work here.
I think you are entirely missing the point; we live in a very different world to the pre-EU one.
It's golbalised and connected and retreating to 'Little Britain' is not going to turn back the clock.
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 18:45
I nearly crashed my car today when i was laughing so much whilst listening to the astonishment of some labour supporters who had called into the Jeremy Vine show…
I mean did they really expect the voting public to get behind that blithering idiot Corbyn? Had they not read his policies, watched his party political broadcasts or even spoken to another person with an IQ larger than their shoe size?
I’ve spoken to friends, family and work colleagues, some of whom are on the breadline, some who are comfortable and some who are silly rich, and one thing was constant..
No Corbyn, no way and absolutely not.
Just look at the sheer amount of labour stalwarts who “lent” their vote to Boris just to stop that cretin getting into number 10.
Now, if labour had put a potato on stick up as a challenger to Boris, then things may have been different.
The outcome would have been the same, but the potato would have spouted far less unbelievable claptrap and would have probably gained more respect. Theres a reason why its labour’s worst performance since 1935 and Corbyn was it!
It really was only going to go one way, and it did.
The correct way.
And thats all i have to say on the matter.
I thank you :)
I think you are entirely missing the point; we live in a very different world to the pre-EU one.
It's golbalised and connected and retreating to 'Little Britain' is not going to turn back the clock.
Nope, the world is exactly the same now, it's just attitudes that have changed
I nearly crashed my car today when i was laughing so much whilst listening to the astonishment of some labour supporters who had called into the Jeremy Vine show…
I mean did they really expect the voting public to get behind that blithering idiot Corbyn? Had they not read his policies, watched his party political broadcasts or even spoken to another person with an IQ larger than their shoe size?
I’ve spoken to friends, family and work colleagues, some of whom are on the breadline, some who are comfortable and some who are silly rich, and one thing was constant..
No Corbyn, no way and absolutely not.
Just look at the sheer amount of labour stalwarts who “lent” their vote to Boris just to stop that cretin getting into number 10.
Now, if labour had put a potato on stick up as a challenger to Boris, then things may have been different.
The outcome would have been the same, but the potato would have spouted far less unbelievable claptrap and would have probably gained more respect. Theres a reason why its labour’s worst performance since 1935 and Corbyn was it!
It really was only going to go one way, and it did.
The correct way.
And thats all i have to say on the matter.
I thank you :)
Love the rant, Jon:D However. I'm afraid that I disagree with every word!!! Boris is just as big a BALLOON, only in a different (but much more dangerous) way.
And no, I won't be going into the exact reasons why I disagree, save to say that we've now got another 5 years of austerity, at the ruling hands of the establishment/elite!!:doh:
In some ways I wish I was still living in Scotland, as I'd have voted for the [every-growing and more popular] SNP party..... Long live The Sturge:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/wdRPoq.jpg
She's saying: "YA DANCER, SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE HERE WE COME - FUCK WESTMINSTER RULE!!"
:yay: :upyours: :yay:
;)
Marco.
The thing that amazed me after both the EU referendum and yesterday's election was the vitriolic holier than thou responses from those who backed the losing side.
The remainders have now had two democratic opportunities to get what they want and have failed both times because they were in the minority, now please accept the will of the majority and get over it.
The UK is fucked. English Nationalism has destroyed the union, Brexit will destroy the UK, everyone reading this will suffer, anyone who voted conservative, shame on you. Boris is a liar, a smoke and mirrors con man and the conservatives do not give a fuck for anyone but themselves. Did you watch what I watched, did you see and hear what I did, and still you gave them your vote.
For the rest of us we are at the mercy of little englander europhobia nationalism, Scotland will try to leave, and northern ireland had been thrown under the bus. I am scared about what will happen here, but as long as its here and not on the streets of British cities none of you who voted consevative will give a fuck.
Worst day in the history of the UK, next to brexit vote.
:(
Hear, hear! :clapclapclap:
Marco.
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 19:35
The thing that amazed me after both the EU referendum and yesterday's election was the vitriolic holier than thou responses from those who backed the losing side.
The remainders have now had two democratic opportunities to get what they want and have failed both times because they were in the minority, now please accept the will of the majority and get over it.
Yup, its a plain as the nose on your face.
I'll be happy when i can't hear all the toys being thrown out of the pram, the childish stamping of feet and tantrums by the losing side.
Suck it up buttercups, it's happened.
Deal with it :D
mightymonoped
13-12-2019, 19:38
I nearly crashed my car today when i was laughing so much whilst listening to the astonishment of some labour supporters who had called into the Jeremy Vine show…
I mean did they really expect the voting public to get behind that blithering idiot Corbyn? Had they not read his policies, watched his party political broadcasts or even spoken to another person with an IQ larger than their shoe size?
I’ve spoken to friends, family and work colleagues, some of whom are on the breadline, some who are comfortable and some who are silly rich, and one thing was constant..
No Corbyn, no way and absolutely not.
Just look at the sheer amount of labour stalwarts who “lent” their vote to Boris just to stop that cretin getting into number 10.
Now, if labour had put a potato on stick up as a challenger to Boris, then things may have been different.
The outcome would have been the same, but the potato would have spouted far less unbelievable claptrap and would have probably gained more respect. Theres a reason why its labour’s worst performance since 1935 and Corbyn was it!
It really was only going to go one way, and it did.
The correct way.
And thats all i have to say on the matter.
I thank you :)
Don’t bother thanking me, I’m not applauding.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup, its a plain as the nose on your face.
I'll be happy when i can't hear all the toys being thrown out of the pram, the childish stamping of feet and tantrums by the losing side.
Suck it up buttercups, it's happened.
Deal with it :D
Do you realise that you've voted for a party full of inbred chinless wonders and (very carefully-closeted) paedophiles. just like a large chunk of the Royal Family, who don't give the slightest fuck about you or your family's interests?;)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
13-12-2019, 19:43
The thing that amazed me after both the EU referendum and yesterday's election was the vitriolic holier than thou responses from those who backed the losing side.
The remainders have now had two democratic opportunities to get what they want and have failed both times because they were in the minority, now please accept the will of the majority and get over it.
Can't argue with that - methinks it's time to stop sulking and start hoping (that a big bollock hasn't been dropped) :)
Pigmy Pony
13-12-2019, 19:52
Do you realise that you've voted for a party full of inbred chinless wonders and (very carefully-closeted) paedophiles. just like a large chunk of the Royal Family, who don't give the slightest fuck about you or your family's interests?;)
Marco.
Well at least one of these sex pests is being held to account. Can't remember though if Alex Salmand is Conservative or Labour. At least he waited for them to reach adulthood before diddling them :eyebrows:
walpurgis
13-12-2019, 19:57
Well at least one of these sex pests is being held to account. Can't remember though if Alex Salmand is Conservative or Labour. At least he waited for them to reach adulthood before diddling them :eyebrows:
Well he's not yet been found quilty of any alleged multiple sexual crimes. And anyway, his buddy Harvey Weinstein said it's all a mistake and he couldn't possibly have done it.
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 19:59
Do you realise that you've voted for a party full of inbred chinless wonders and (very carefully-closeted) paedophiles. just like a large chunk of the Royal Family, who don't give the slightest fuck about you or your family's interests?;)
Marco.
I didn't vote.
Do you realise that you've voted for a party full of inbred chinless wonders and (very carefully-closeted) paedophiles. just like a large chunk of the Royal Family, who don't give the slightest fuck about you or your family's interests?;)
Marco.
That quite conclusively proves his point lol
I lost so I'm going to insult the winners and their supporters
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 20:03
Also, i believe that Wrexham is now tory.
Enjoy that :lol:
Also, i believe that Wrexham is now tory.
Enjoy that :lol:
Correct but a female so less likely to be a paedophile lol
Pigmy Pony
13-12-2019, 20:12
Well he's not yet been found quilty of any alleged multiple sexual crimes. And anyway, his buddy Harvey Weinstein said it's all a mistake and he couldn't possibly have done it.
Fortunately ole Pervy Winespiker had a spare $25 million down the back of his sofa. The rest of us would be screwed.
Landloper
13-12-2019, 20:17
Love the rant, Jon:D However. I'm afraid that I disagree with every word!!! Boris is just as big a BALLOON, only in a different (but much more dangerous) way.
And no, I won't be going into the exact reasons why I disagree, save to say that we've now got another 5 years of austerity, at the ruling hands of the establishment/elite!!:doh:
In some ways I wish I was still living in Scotland, as I'd have voted for the [every-growing and more popular] SNP party..... Long live The Sturge:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/wdRPoq.jpg
She's saying: "YA DANCER, SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE HERE WE COME - FUCK WESTMINSTER RULE!!"
:yay: :upyours: :yay:
;)
Marco.
i do hope somehow Scotland becomes an independent nation, Wales and England too. Down with empires and all other supra-national organisations. Long live freedom and self-determination.
i do hope somehow Scotland becomes an independent nation, Wales and England too. Down with empires and all other supra-national organisations. Long live freedom and self-determination.
Me too
We (England) won't have to support the poor relations anymore lol
Pigmy Pony
13-12-2019, 20:22
:sofa:
Me too
We (England) won't have to support the poor relations anymore lol
Haha - try it the other way round!! Without all the billions of pounds Scotland have to give to Westmonster (spelling deliberate) from North Sea oil, YOU ENGLANDERS would be the 'poor relations'!!:ner:
And once independence is gained, you'll be getting the sum total of hee-haw....:D;)
Marco.
i do hope somehow Scotland becomes an independent nation, Wales and England too. Down with empires and all other supra-national organisations. Long live freedom and self-determination.
We're on the same page, John:thumbsup::exactly:
Marco.
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 20:56
Haha - try it the other way round!! Without all the billions of pounds Scotland have to give to Westmonster (spelling deliberate) from North Sea oil, YOU ENGLANDERS would be the 'poor relations'!!:ner:
And once independence is gained, you'll be getting the sum total of hee-haw....:D;)
Marco.
I kinda get the banter, but do you actually think that'll happen? We'll have already left by then and "you'll" have to re-join.
Good luck with that considering what that will entail. Which is a lot, like currency for a start.
Patrick Dixon
13-12-2019, 21:06
Nope, attitudes are exactly the same now, it's just the world that has changed
FTFY.
brian2957
13-12-2019, 21:13
The UK is fucked. English Nationalism has destroyed the union, Brexit will destroy the UK, everyone reading this will suffer, anyone who voted conservative, shame on you. Boris is a liar, a smoke and mirrors con man and the conservatives do not give a fuck for anyone but themselves. Did you watch what I watched, did you see and hear what I did, and still you gave them your vote.
For the rest of us we are at the mercy of little englander europhobia nationalism, Scotland will try to leave, and northern ireland had been thrown under the bus. I am scared about what will happen here, but as long as its here and not on the streets of British cities none of you who voted consevative will give a fuck.
Worst day in the history of the UK, next to brexit vote.
:(
My goodness ... I couldn't have said it better myself . Well said Neil .
Hopefully there will now be an overwhelming drive for independence here in Scotland and we can take charge of our own destiny .
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 21:19
i do hope somehow Scotland becomes an independent nation, Wales and England too. Down with empires and all other supra-national organisations. Long live freedom and self-determination.
They don't want independence, they want to be part of the EU.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 21:37
[emoji52]
I voted Labour ... and if there was an election again next week I'd vote Labour again. - with or without Corbyn as leader.
There is not a thing under this sky would even remotely persuade me to vote for the opportunistic shit shower who currently have their hands on the coffer.
I hope all those who chose to run to that side this time having 'never voted for them before' will remind themselves of how weak and flabby they've become when they see the NHS and the rest of the nation's goods floated over the sea on a 'thank you' barge to Uncle Donald.
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 21:43
Brexit will plunge the UK into a commercial wilderness, everything will cost more, business will fold, more will leave, unemployment will rise, food costs will rise, holidays will cost more, you will all be very much the poorer. Negotiating trade agreements will take years and will not be so favourable as the UK had. The tories are liars and con artists, they are only interested in lining their pockets and that of the very rich. The UK will not be better off outside the EU, everyone reading this will go to their graves much, much poorer than they are now.
Re Northern Ireland there will be a boarder up the Irish sea, everything will cost us more, this will damage business and put many out of business, this boarder will push the United Ireland agenda closer and the Unionists will push back. There will be a rise in murder and bombings here.
And re English Nationalism its thriving. I am sure many in 30s Germany thought as you did.
Once again if English Nationalism is thriving and the driving force behind Brexit then explain the popularity of Brexit in Wales. Also the main threat of serious violence we have been experiencing in this country in recent history has come from people who claim to be Muslim and largely come from Asian backgrounds, where is your criticism of that? Don't you fear a far right Islamic uprising? N.I. haven't had a working parliament for quite some time now, so we can't really blame Whitehall for the continuing problems there. I agree though that trade wise Brexit offers little hope for anyone, though you say we will be much poorer, but who is to know where the blame lies for any future recessions, in the EU the picture isn't exactly rosy either.
English Nationalism?! , look at the comments of the Forums owner!!!!!
I agree with what Mark said, politics has no place on a HiFi forum.
Much of it tongue-in-cheek, in response to Jon's 'tirade', so chill!;)
In terms of the last bit. I agree, although pfm manage it, but then most are singing from the same hymn sheet.
Marco.
The UK is fucked. English Nationalism has destroyed the union, Brexit will destroy the UK, everyone reading this will suffer, anyone who voted conservative, shame on you. Boris is a liar, a smoke and mirrors con man and the conservatives do not give a fuck for anyone but themselves. Did you watch what I watched, did you see and hear what I did, and still you gave them your vote.
For the rest of us we are at the mercy of little englander europhobia nationalism, Scotland will try to leave, and northern ireland had been thrown under the bus. I am scared about what will happen here, but as long as its here and not on the streets of British cities none of you who voted consevative will give a fuck.
Worst day in the history of the UK, next to brexit vote.
:(
+1 ... and then some.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 21:49
[emoji52]
I voted Labour ... and if there was an election again next week I'd vote Labour again. - with or without Corbyn as leader.
There is not a thing under this sky would even remotely persuade me to vote for the opportunistic shit shower who currently have their hands on the coffer.
I hope all those who chose to run to that side this time having 'never voted for them before' will remind themselves of how weak and flabby they've become when they see the NHS and the rest of the nation's goods floated over the sea on a 'thank you' barge to Uncle Donald.
Spot on (and not just the bit I've highlighted)!:)
In terms if that bit though, especially when in doing so, you're voting for the odious establishment/elite. We've now got our own version of Donald Trump inside No10:doh:
Marco.
Marco,
I'm fucking raging.
This bullshit left wing nonsense is all scaremongering. This country can absolutely thrive after Brexit and if I didn't believe it could, I wouldn't have voted that way.
The Labour Party ain't fit to wipe the shit off my shoe. They are a party in absolute disarray and we're prior to this election. JC was a huge eurosceotic yet when the party threatened to oust him as leader, he switched his position quicked than a crack whore getting paid double.
Corbyn released pictures of him sat on the floor of a train, citing overcrowding. It was a lie, as the alternative pictures showed. He allegedly had proof the NHS was for sale, yet he never released it.
You want to talk smoke and mirror, how about the fact the Labour Party is actually "The Momentum party" masquerading as the Labour party?
Jeremy Corbyn was an absolute wretch. If he was on fire, I'd try to put him out with an axe.
Communism is of no interest to me and that's what he and his sleeper cell within the Labour Party would have brought.
Lol - well I'm perfectly calm, just relaxing having a glass of wine, thanks!:D
As for the rest, sorry, not going there. However, the bit in blue isn't acceptable, Ollie. If you can't discuss politics calmly and rationally (when it's clear you're not taking the piss), then don't discuss it.
Marco.
P.S Please remove links to other forums from your signature. You should've asked for permission first before doing that.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 21:58
[emoji58]
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 21:59
At what time do the "toys out of the pram" stop?
The decision has been made, lets just get on with it and stop crying like a 3 year old child who's lost his/her blanket.
Seriously, lets just deal with it and move on. Theres no options here, it is what it is.
Haha - try it the other way round!! Without all the billions of pounds Scotland have to give to Westmonster (spelling deliberate) from North Sea oil, YOU ENGLANDERS would be the 'poor relations'!!:ner:
And once independence is gained, you'll be getting the sum total of hee-haw....:D;)
Marco.
Scottish oil?
I keep forgetting you're pinning all your hopes on a one trick donkey that's on its last legs anyway
Is it not correct that many rigs are reaching the end of their operational life and are unlikely to be renewed due to falling production.
Still there's always whiskey, the Loch Ness monster and deep fried Mars bars to fall back on.
At what time do the "toys out of the pram" stop?
The decision has been made, lets just get on with it and stop crying like a 3 year old child who's lost his/her blanket.
Seriously, lets just deal with it and move on. Theres no options here, it is what it is.
Would you have said the same had Labour won and Corbyn was now in No10, instead of Boris Karloff, the Scots hater?
Marco.
Why? That was obviously the most humorous bit!
Saying you're going to mutilate someone with an axe isn't funny. What if I said I'd happily set fire to the Queen, and every Tory in Westmonster?
Would that be funny?
Marco.
Lol - well I'm perfectly calm, just relaxing having a glass of wine, thanks!:D
As for the rest, sorry, not going there. However, the bit in blue isn't acceptable, Ollie. If you can't discuss politics calmly and rationally (when it's clear you're not taking the piss), then don't discuss it.
Marco.
P.S Please remove links to other forums from your signature. You should've asked for permission first before doing that.
Translation
Don't argue with me or I'll get petty about links
Nope, not at all. He should've asked permission first, it's only manners to do so. I wouldn't dream of joining AA and linking to AoS in my sig, without checking first if it was ok, so don't get smart.
Marco.
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 22:10
Still there's always whiskey, the Loch Ness monster and deep fried Mars bars to fall back on.
And pizza, i mean who doesnt love a deep fried pizza!
Well, the Scottish obviously and i've heard its catching on in Wales
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:11
[emoji58]
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:13
Translation
Don't argue with me or I'll get petty about linksI'm pretty sure people have links to their blogs, websites and the like, but suddenly my link to my forum is an issue because Ive upset the apple cart with my political views.
[emoji849]
It's a reference to (an obviously never seen) joke in the Viz, or something similar.
It originated as a "what would you do if your ex wife was on fire" type question.
Someone wrote in with "id put her out, with an Axe"
I loved it. Thought it was hilarious.
Well, that was obvious, wasn't it? You should've made that clear. Never heard of it, as I didn't read Viz much. In future, if you do something like that, please make it clear what you're referring to. There wasn't even any smilies.
Marco.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:14
[emoji52]
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:15
[emoji52]
I'm pretty sure people have links to their blogs, websites and the like, but suddenly my link to my forum is an issue because Ive upset the apple cart with my political views.
Nope, not at all. I couldn't give a flying toss what your political views are, trust me!:lol:
But... I do like to be shown some respect and consideration. Anyone else here who's linked to their blog, or whatever, in their sig has sought permission first. In any case, I thought AA was Andrew's forum. Have you bought it from him?
Marco.
InThe Sticks
13-12-2019, 22:16
What if I said I'd happily set fire to the Queen, and every Tory in Westmonster?
Would that be funny?
Marco.
For one, if you did that, you wouldnt have a representative in Wrexham, now that its a Tory seat.
Just sayin.
Why?
You'd be welcome to join and STICK AoS in your sig.
I'm a long time member here and have no issues with the forum.
Don't see an issue me self.
Well, as owner of this forum, I'm telling you it's not acceptable, so please sort it. It still would've been nice to have been asked first. I don't have time to post anywhere else these days. This place take up all my spare time.
Marco.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:19
[emoji58]
For one, if you did that, you wouldnt have a representative in Wrexham, now that its a Tory seat.
Just sayin.
Indeed, and I'd happily set her on fire, too;)
<Joking>
Marco.
No, I haven't bought it.
I have taken over for Andrew.
So it's not *your* forum then... Earlier you said "my" forum. It's only your forum if you own it. Anyway, I've made my point.
Marco.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:23
[emoji58]
mightymonoped
13-12-2019, 22:26
I voted Labour ... and if there was an election again next week I'd vote Labour again. - with or without Corbyn as leader.
There is not a thing under this sky would even remotely persuade me to vote for the opportunistic shit shower who currently have their hands on the coffer.
I hope all those who chose to run to that side this time having 'never voted for them before' will remind themselves of how weak and flabby they've become when they see the NHS and the rest of the nation's goods floated over the sea on a 'thank you' barge to Uncle Donald.
+1
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is what I'm referring to:
I'm pretty sure people have links to their blogs, websites and the like, but suddenly my link to my forum...
What you meant was the forum you're running for Andrew while he's ill, yes? The above implies that AA is yours.
Marco.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 22:28
This is what I'm referring to:
What you meant was the forum you're running for Andrew while he's ill, yes? The above implies that AA is yours.
Marco.No, I am sole proprietor.
El Capitain,
Mon ami!
I see, fair enough. Didn't know Andrew had given it up.
Marco.
And pizza, i mean who doesnt love a deep fried pizza!
Well, the Scottish obviously and i've heard its catching on in Wales
Deep-fried pizza, yes [truly horrid things], deep-fried Mars bars, no. That's largely a myth!
Marco.
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 22:39
Marco,
I'm fucking raging.
This bullshit left wing nonsense is all scaremongering. This country can absolutely thrive after Brexit and if I didn't believe it could, I wouldn't have voted that way.
The Labour Party ain't fit to wipe the shit off my shoe. They are a party in absolute disarray and we're prior to this election. JC was a huge eurosceotic yet when the party threatened to oust him as leader, he switched his position quicked than a crack whore getting paid double.
Corbyn released pictures of him sat on the floor of a train, citing overcrowding. It was a lie, as the alternative pictures showed. He allegedly had proof the NHS was for sale, yet he never released it.
You want to talk smoke and mirror, how about the fact the Labour Party is actually "The Momentum party" masquerading as the Labour party?
Jeremy Corbyn was an absolute wretch. If he was on fire, I'd try to put him out with an axe.
Communism is of no interest to me and that's what he and his sleeper cell within the Labour Party would have brought.
Disgusting anti-Corbyn bias. :lol:
Scottish oil?
I keep forgetting you're pinning all your hopes on a one trick donkey that's on its last legs anyway
Is it not correct that many rigs are reaching the end of their operational life and are unlikely to be renewed due to falling production.
Still there's always whiskey, the Loch Ness monster and deep fried Mars bars to fall back on.
I'll consider answering that when you learn to spell whisky correctly... Typical Sassenach;)
Marco.
I can't spell it or drink it, I just believed predictive text
Isn't that the Irish spelling with the E?
Lawrence001
13-12-2019, 23:03
+1 ... and then some.Agincourt, Trafalgar, Waterloo, VE Day, Falklands victory, Brexit Ref, 2019 Election. Glorious days.
Agincourt, Trafalgar, Waterloo, VE Day, Falklands victory, Brexit Ref, 2019 Election. Glorious days.
Silly boy .....
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 23:12
Seems my signature has been edited for me!!
Audio Al
13-12-2019, 23:16
The Blue's only won with the bigger margin because of " Lets get Brexit Done " statement
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 23:20
Agincourt, Trafalgar, Waterloo, VE Day, Falklands victory, Brexit Ref, 2019 Election. Glorious days.
Lets see what you think in a years time when incompetent Boris is shown out of his depth. Believe me it won't be glorious.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 23:32
[emoji58]
Lawrence001
13-12-2019, 23:40
Always makes me laugh that people actually think the PM is the one doing the "Thinking"
Boris is going to be backed by a humungous amount of specialists, the same as any PM. Boris will in fact, do very little, other than discuss strategy and relay the information given to him by said specialists, as the figurehead of this country's elected party leader.
He has shown an adept ability of knowing when to call an election, deal with dissenters and how to get an election over the line. Something Corbyn never managed at two attempts.
Suddenly the EU will discuss a free trade agreement, according to ITV news.
Amazing isn't it. All of the "we're doomed" calls could be swiftly wiped off the face of the planet, should Boris get a FTA.Yep what pleases me most is that we just managed to get this done in time before the next generation of brainwashed youth grew up and swung a remain majority. Now we can show them that there are alternatives (that actually work) to the left wing clap trap they've been force fed by socialist teachers and lecturers, and save the country from the shithole it was looking like becoming.
Bigman80
13-12-2019, 23:46
[emoji58]
Mikeandvan
13-12-2019, 23:56
Always makes me laugh that people actually think the PM is the one doing the "Thinking"
Boris is going to be backed by a humungous amount of specialists, the same as any PM. Boris will in fact, do very little, other than discuss strategy and relay the information given to him by said specialists, as the figurehead of this country's elected party leader.
He has shown an adept ability of knowing when to call an election, deal with dissenters and how to get an election over the line. Something Corbyn never managed at two attempts.
Suddenly the EU will discuss a free trade agreement, according to ITV news.
Amazing isn't it. All of the "we're doomed" calls could be swiftly wiped off the face of the planet, should Boris get a FTA.
Shame he doesn't have the ability to stand up to an Andrew Neil interview. The man believes in nothing but his own ego, he switched sides in the Brexit campaign when he realised he had a chance of becoming PM. Though I of course hope that things do pan out well in our post EU economy, I don't think Boris or his cabinet are the best people for the job. The experts you refer to of course would have chosen not to leave the EU at all, or to have done it in a radically different way, May's deal would have been better for trade. And I'm sorry but as leader of our country I think it makes a huge difference that he isn't upto the job, just look at Trump and what he'd doing to the US.
Yep what pleases me most is that we just managed to get this done in time before the next generation of brainwashed youth grew up and swung a remain majority. Now we can show them that there are alternatives (that actually work) to the left wing clap trap they've been force fed by socialist teachers and lecturers, and save the country from the shithole it was looking like becoming.
Unadulterated claptrap - Britain was taken into the Common Market by the Tories.
Basic history lessons for you young chap:
"Sir Edward Richard George "Ted" Heath KG MBE (9 July 1916 – 17 July 2005) was a British politician who served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1970 to 1974 and Leader of the Conservative Party from 1965 to 1975. Heath served 51 years as a Member of Parliament from 1950 to 2001. He was a strong supporter of the European Communities (EC), and after winning the decisive vote in the House of Commons by 336 to 244, he led the negotiations that culminated in Britain's entry into the EC on 1 January 1973. It was, says biographer John Campbell, "Heath's finest hour".[1] "
Wikipedia
Bigman80
14-12-2019, 00:00
[emoji58]
Bigman80
14-12-2019, 00:04
[emoji58]
Yes, the common market. Not the United States of Europe, which it was trying to become.
Fancy some national service for your grandkids?
That's what was on the agenda for the EU project.
Fancy singing the EU Nations Anthem?
That's what was coming
Fancy adopting the Euro?
Guess what, that's what was next.
The idea of the European Single Market was to help countries involved, be able to trade freely and help each other.
What the EU is now, is nothing like that. Its a powerful organisation that rules over us, a sovereign state.
:rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
You really believe all that hogwash don't you?
Hilarious ....
Yes, the common market. Not the United States of Europe, which it was trying to become.
Fancy some national service for your grandkids?
That's what was on the agenda for the EU project.
Fancy singing the EU Nations Anthem?
That's what was coming
Fancy adopting the Euro?
Guess what, that's what was next.
The idea of the European Single Market was to help countries involved, be able to trade freely and help each other.
What the EU is now, is nothing like that. Its a powerful organisation that rules over us, a sovereign state.Is this a serious perspective?
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 00:18
Why would they not have chosen to leave?
You can't make that assumption.
Predictions, which is all anyone had to go off when Brexit was voted IN.
I can predict the score of every football match and not get it right once. FFS, the pound should be sinking, according to the remain experts, but instead it's rallied and is at a high, for this year I believe.
Truth is, no one knows how it'll turn out, which is why most experts advised against leaving. Fear.
I'm not afraid. I have and 18, 7 and 5 year old and I'd not have voted leave if I believed for one second that they wouldn't have a future, because we left the EU.
This Country is a world leader. Its a financial powerhouse and a place of great innovation. We will be better off, it'll just take time.
Most economists would agree that giving up membership of a trading bloc which is also our biggest trading partner is a bad idea. Brexit wasn't about economics though, it was partly D Cameron not being able to tame the more right wing elements of his own party, and also that large parts of the UK electorate didn't think they had much to lose, that's why Brexit is mostly popular in economically depressed post industrial areas like Wales and the midlands/North of England. It was also - and this is the bit I like - a kickback against the 'experts', and political correctness, of which the EU seems to epitomise. People don't like being told what to think, and I find remainers as annoying as you seem to, even though I agree with them about not being able to see the economic benefits of leaving the EU. Some of that may sound contradictory, but Brexit isn't the black and white, in or out issue its often presented as. The thing about leaving the EU is how complicated it all is and about how much of our parliamentary time will be taken up with it, and whether in the end it will all be worth it. I do wonder what the Tories will do for those Brexit supporting areas I mentioned? Because their manifesto didn't promise much govt. investment from what I read in the papers. Having more preferential access to the Chinese middle class market would be good, as to how different that would be to what we have now I don't know.
anubisgrau
14-12-2019, 01:01
Me too
We (England) won't have to support the poor relations anymore lol
No you're not a nationalist
The best comment about the elections I've seen was: Turkeys voting for Christmas.
Do you realise that you've voted for a party full of inbred chinless wonders and (very carefully-closeted) paedophiles. just like a large chunk of the Royal Family, who don't give the slightest fuck about you or your family's interests?;)
Marco.
[emoji106]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No you're not a nationalist
The best comment about the elections I've seen was: Turkeys voting for Christmas.
That depends on what you mean by nationalist
It seems there are two very different definitions
Scottish and Welsh nationalists are apparently proud patriots who want their countries to be free to make their own decisions
For some reason English people with similar views are narrow minded racists. At least that's how things are depicted by other narrow minded racists that pretend to something else
jandl100
14-12-2019, 06:40
https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79250654_1224484591083211_7644044250660732928_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&_nc_eui2=AeFBRKlmLjmVBMBr0uFYksR6buWGKToyyFYQAPU3A CoNmyGbhBiEof6x4sL0HX49ziaeKSg5I69GeomTCmvT4XR0Zc8 Cyz2hMkm0VPw2i9Kg1Q&_nc_ohc=_1ivG_z4dA4AQkNUPma9gFxcpQN1_wjIL2WFc7UaC6 PlYz8WMADNA5tuw&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-2.fna&oh=e86c43aeff818fb47dcb258c51462444&oe=5E6F60E4
Firebottle
14-12-2019, 07:39
Jerry for PM :)
dave2010
14-12-2019, 09:49
This Country is a world leader. Its a financial powerhouse and a place of great innovation. We will be better off, it'll just take time.
Quoted from Bigman80
Most economists would agree that giving up membership of a trading bloc which is also our biggest trading partner is a bad idea. Brexit wasn't about economics though, it was partly D Cameron not being able to tame the more right wing elements of his own party, and also that large parts of the UK electorate didn't think they had much to lose, that's why Brexit is mostly popular in economically depressed post industrial areas like Wales and the midlands/North of England. It was also - and this is the bit I like - a kickback against the 'experts', and political correctness, of which the EU seems to epitomise. People don't like being told what to think, and I find remainers as annoying as you seem to, even though I agree with them about not being able to see the economic benefits of leaving the EU. Some of that may sound contradictory, but Brexit isn't the black and white, in or out issue its often presented as. The thing about leaving the EU is how complicated it all is and about how much of our parliamentary time will be taken up with it, and whether in the end it will all be worth it. I do wonder what the Tories will do for those Brexit supporting areas I mentioned? Because their manifesto didn't promise much govt. investment from what I read in the papers. Having more preferential access to the Chinese middle class market would be good, as to how different that would be to what we have now I don't know.Maybe the UK is a world leader, and it has the fifth or sixth largest economy. In terms of per capita income, and other factors such as general well-being, it’s much lower - perhaps around 20th, which puts it well below several other EU states, though there are still some which are lower ranked.
There is, of course, very significant disparity between regions in the UK, with some parts having low per capita incomes, poor opportunities etc. There is very little trickle down from the wealthier parts, IMO.
anubisgrau
14-12-2019, 10:19
That depends on what you mean by nationalist
It seems there are two very different definitions
Scottish and Welsh nationalists are apparently proud patriots who want their countries to be free to make their own decisions
For some reason English people with similar views are narrow minded racists. At least that's how things are depicted by other narrow minded racists that pretend to something else
Scottish and Welsh are irrelevant or much less relevant for this issue, because it's clash of a big nation, colonialism backed nationalism that was a global occupying force for centuries and smaller, generally much less toxic or dangerous nationalisms. Just google - big nation vs small nation nationalism. Scotts and Welsh will have to finish the process of national emancipation first, simply they don't rule themselves and their independence will be the final stage of their liberation from Westminster.
If you look at Europe (no pun intended), there is hardly any country left with such a strong ethnic mix, maybe partly a Spain but it gonna dissolve too. Just as Brexit is simply a wrong consequence of fake resentment, romanticism for days when Britain ruled, the attitude towards Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is the last remain of the colonial domination. A shrunk Commonwealth kept together with toxic nationalism.
Quoted from Bigman80
Maybe the UK is a world leader, and it has the fifth or sixth largest economy. In terms of per capita income, and other factors such as general well-being, it’s much lower - perhaps around 20th, which puts it well below several other EU states, though there are still some which are lower ranked.
There is, of course, very significant disparity between regions in the UK, with some parts having low per capita incomes, poor opportunities etc. There is very little trickle down from the wealthier parts, IMO.
Yup... Take London out of the equation, and then recalculate your figures on UK wealth/prosperity and well-being...
And for a country that has the 5th or 6th largest economy, we also have shocking levels of poverty and homelessness, for a supposedly civilised and wealthy country, which the Tories have largely created with their policies designed to look after the best interests of the rich, at the expense of others.
Marco.
anubisgrau
14-12-2019, 10:24
Speaking of London, what were the results there?
Speaking of London, what were the results there?
Inner London mostly Labour, outer London mostly Tory. One of the few Labour gains was in London.
Unadulterated claptrap - Britain was taken into the Common Market by the Tories.
Basic history lessons for you young chap:
"Sir Edward Richard George "Ted" Heath KG MBE (9 July 1916 – 17 July 2005) was a British politician who served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1970 to 1974 and Leader of the Conservative Party from 1965 to 1975. Heath served 51 years as a Member of Parliament from 1950 to 2001. He was a strong supporter of the European Communities (EC), and after winning the decisive vote in the House of Commons by 336 to 244, he led the negotiations that culminated in Britain's entry into the EC on 1 January 1973. It was, says biographer John Campbell, "Heath's finest hour".[1] "
Wikipedia
Not only that, but back then, the 'Brexiteers' were mainly left-wing Labour MPs (Michael Foot, Tony Benn etc). Jeremy Corbyn's wishy-washy attitude to our membership of the EU stems from that background.
anubisgrau
14-12-2019, 10:32
Inner London mostly Labour, outer London mostly Tory. One of the few Labour gains was in London.
Thanks, as expected. London was remain near 60%.
For some reason English people with similar views are narrow minded racists. At least that's how things are depicted by other narrow minded racists that pretend to something else
That's because England (or rather London and the home counties) have largely had it their own way since parliamentary rule began in England, and thus have benefited most from political policies created, through Westminster control, and decisions taken by successive governments to prioritise English interests above those of the other countries making up the UK, and so unlike, say the Scots, have nothing to 'escape from'...
Seeking fairness and equality, and wanting to divorce themselves from unfair and unjust Westminster rule, is what largely drives Scottish nationalism and the desire for independence. When you've been downtrodden and treated like second-class citizens for centuries by the *English* Westminster system, and now have the chance to escape and be in control of your own destiny, then it's only natural to want to take it!
There is nothing racist or bigoted about that. However, some aspects of English nationalism, which is founded upon something quite different (often bigoted colonialism), is abhorrent and rightly loathed by those who've suffered at the hands of it.
Marco.
Hibster_2000
14-12-2019, 10:38
No, I am sole proprietor.
El Capitain,
Mon ami!
I have looked at the forum.
It is a ProBoards forum, so ProBoards own it. Every user on there owns their data, so ProBoards cannot be held liable for any of the content posted. You will never own it, nor will you be able to transfer the data elsewhere.
Just google it and you will see.
I have looked at the forum.
It is a ProBoards forum, so ProBoards own it. Every user on there owns their data, so ProBoards cannot be held liable for any of the content posted. You will never own it, nor will you be able to transfer the data elsewhere.
Just google it and you will see.
Amusingly, I'm banned from there. Which is a first, though I was banned from here for a week for posting a link to a Monty Python sketch.
I have looked at the forum.
It is a ProBoards forum, so ProBoards own it. Every user on there owns their data, so ProBoards cannot be held liable for any of the content posted. You will never own it, nor will you be able to transfer the data elsewhere.
Indeed... If Ollie wants to own a forum and all its stored data, he'll have to put his hand in his pocket and do what I've done;)
Marco.
I think you will find if you care to look it up,that more money from the national economy per capita head is given to Scotland than anywhere else in the UK.
Personally, I think we'd be (much) better off as a United Kingdom and as part of the EU. Looks like Boris and co will ensure that in a few years time we will be neither. What worries me most is Northern Ireland, where a modus vivendi was arrived at, after decades of sectarian violence, and which is now at risk because of Brexit. The arrogant, self-centred attitude of many English people toward the rest of the UK is one of our least attractive features.
The arrogant, self-centred attitude of many English people toward the rest of the UK is one of our least attractive features.
SPOT ON! :exactly:
And it says something for you, being English, that you're able to recognise and acknowledge it. It's what *irks* the Scots, Welsh and Irish like you wouldn't believe, and has been instrumental in creating the divided country we live in....
But I'd say that the vast majority of said arrogance and self-centredness comes from the south of England/home-counties, which is why, in terms of independence, I'd happily take the rest of England with us (the Scots) and leave the arrogant and the self-centred assholes you mention to it;)
Marco.
I think you will find if you care to look it up,that more money from the national economy per capita head is given to Scotland than anywhere else in the UK.
That depends on which biased/manipulated set of statistics you've read best supports your belief system;)
Marco.
Hibster_2000
14-12-2019, 11:43
The rich are going to get richer at the expense of the poor people.
Food bank usage is at an all time high, and for the 5th or 6th richest economy in the world, it is pretty shocking.
I don’t think Corbyn was the best choice for the labour leader, but quite frankly the combination of Trump (an English slang word for a fart) and Johnson (an American slang word for a penis) scares me silly.
Time will tell if Brexit is a good idea or not, but one of the main reasons of people pushing for Brexit was due to the change in law regarding offshore investment declarations. The rich people in the U.K. are against this, and have managed to convince ce the population that Brexit is a good thing.
We will see, but if it is not good, then it is too late to go back cap in hand to rejoin the EU.
I am also wondering where these new trade eats are, as we already have trade deals with the majority of the trading blocks.
I think you will find if you care to look it up,that more money from the national economy per capita head is given to Scotland than anywhere else in the UK.
Can we please stop trying to use facts when people are venting anecdotal bias, they just cloud the issue
Ali Tait
14-12-2019, 11:54
I think you will find if you care to look it up,that more money from the national economy per capita head is given to Scotland than anywhere else in the UK.
I think you will find if you care to look it up that more revenue is collected from Scotland than is paid in.
The rich are going to get richer at the expense of the poor people.
Food bank usage is at an all time high, and for the 5th or 6th richest economy in the world, it is pretty shocking.
I don’t think Corbyn was the best choice for the labour leader, but quite frankly the combination of Trump (an English slang word for a fart) and Johnson (an American slang word for a penis) scares me silly.
Time will tell if Brexit is a good idea or not, but one of the main reasons of people pushing for Brexit was due to the change in law regarding offshore investment declarations. The rich people in the U.K. are against this, and have managed to convince ce the population that Brexit is a good thing.
We will see, but if it is not good, then it is too late to go back cap in hand to rejoin the EU.
I am also wondering where these new trade eats are, as we already have trade deals with the majority of the trading blocks.
Interesting comment about food banks, have you wondered why they are used so much?
I see from your location you're from Bristol so are probably familiar with Southmead?
My wife used to work in a school on the estate where a significant proportion of pupils were arriving at school having had no breakfast as there was no food in the house. The really shocking part is that they were picked up from school by parents wearing £100 trainers, lots of tattoos (not cheap) and very often already half pissed at 3pm.
This is a fact witnessed first hand on a regular basis by my wife not a daily mail headline
Can we please stop trying to use facts when people are venting anecdotal bias, they just cloud the issue
No that's just how you're reading things through the eyes of your entrenched biases, and besides what you're agreeing with is factually wrong.
Marco.
"Time will tell if Brexit is a good idea or not, but one of the main reasons of people pushing for Brexit was due to the change in law regarding offshore investment declarations. The rich people in the U.K. are against this, and have managed to convince ce the population that Brexit is a good thing."
Again on the nail Hibstar 2000
My wife used to work in a school on the estate where a significant proportion of pupils were arriving at school having had no breakfast as there was no food in the house. The really shocking part is that they were picked up from school by parents wearing £100 trainers, lots of tattoos (not cheap) and very often already half pissed at 3pm.
This is a fact witnessed first hand on a regular basis by my wife not a daily mail headline
Then they're just as bad as fat cats living off the cream, created by the Tory policies of looking after the rich. I'd jail the wankers you describe for 6 months, if I caught them, and then make them work in soup kitchens, throughout the UK, for a year, just so they could see first hand what it's like to be genuinely poor!
*But* the odious actions of those parasites is not the main reason why food banks have grown in number recently.
Marco.
"Time will tell if Brexit is a good idea or not, but one of the main reasons of people pushing for Brexit was due to the change in law regarding offshore investment declarations. The rich people in the U.K. are against this, and have managed to convince ce the population that Brexit is a good thing."
Again on the nail Hibstar 2000
Indeed. It's the best and most accurate post on this thread!! And one I'll be highlighting shortly:)
Marco.
No that's just how you're reading things through the eyes of your entrenched biases, and besides what you're agreeing with is factually wrong.
Marco.
That depends on which "facts" you believe
I think you will find if you care to look it up that more revenue is collected from Scotland than is paid in.
Yip per head of population [emoji6]
Stratmangler
14-12-2019, 12:34
And re English Nationalism its thriving. I am sure many in 30s Germany thought as you did.
Carry on Neil - this is the funniest thing I've read in ages
Landloper
14-12-2019, 12:38
I respect and admire the Scottish nationalist assertion of nationhood and hope to live to see the day of independence come.
But, before we get too misty eyed, the Scottish people were not backwards in allying their own interests with that of the British Crown, itself an amalgamation of Scottish and English intersts, ver many other peoples, not least the Irish. The oppression of the Irish in Scotland is well documented and continues to this day. Looking over the titles of ownership of the plantations in the north of ireland, Scottish surnames dominate: not just a record of the expropriation of land but a map of the frontline of bloody religous oppression.
Let's not forget either that the modern rise of nationalism in Scotland has had its less benign aspects, the rise of anti-semitism is not confined to the influence of the English or Scottish Labour Parties. Elements within the SNP have articulated an anti-Semitisc narratives. I'm not suggesting that Sturgeon ot the SNP is anti-Semitic like Corbyn, but she was, like the Green leader, Lucas, prepared to back him as an interim PM. So much for their passionate commitments to anti-racism.
No one nation has a monopoly in virtue or in villany.
I read that the new PM has declined the SNP's request for another referendum on independence. Since the SNP argue that referenda are not binding, why ask for another one anyway? Why not simply declare independence?
Perhaps the peoples of the remaining members of the union might be offered a vote on whether to dissolve the union, or whether to reform the union into one without Scotland, thus making Scotland an independent nation.
I am an English nationalist and have no interest in binding other nations to a union not to their taste. My preference would be to vote for the dissolution of the union. I look to free my own country from the same union that the SNP wish to be rid of. I would like an English Parliament with assmeblies for the English regions as a prelude to the introdcction of Direct Democracy.
The more devolution we can get, the more power we can take from the politicians and their rubbishy party sysytem, the better.
That depends on which "facts" you believe
Yes, and that applies to you, me, or indeed anyone else other than those who actually know the *real* ones!
Marco.
Carry on Neil - this is the funniest thing I've read in ages
Why not put some 'meat on the bone' then, Chris, and tell him *why* you think he's wrong? Comments such as the above do nothing to further the debate.
Marco.
England voted to leave the EU
Scotland voted to Remain in the EU
England voted the Tories in to ensure we leave the EU
Scotland voted the SNP in to try and ensure we split from England ( no point saying the UK we really just mean England [emoji6] )and rejoin the EU once ‘we’ leave
Why can’t the English population see that WE the Scots want our own rule backed by the EU, just the same as England want theirs ie: not ruled by the EU.
We are fed up being ruled by Westminster who let’s face it couldn’t give a fuck about us up here (Johnson more than anyone who still thinks he’s living in the time of the Highland clearances [emoji2959] ) and see us as a nice little earner.
I can’t wait for NHS to be sold down the river so I can give the biggest middle finger ever and say we told you so!
The latest election was nothing but another Brexit vote.
Even if we don’t rejoin the EU after we split Scotland will do just fine on its own
II am an English nationalist and have no interest in binding other nations to a union not to their taste.
Perhaps if Scotland and its people had been treated more fairly and equally by the Westminster parliamentary system, at its inception, rather than continually being shat upon from a great height by the ruling English classes, the Scots might've considered the "union" (in reality it was never such in many people's minds) more palatable?;)
The English simply have to accept that Scotland has a right to be governed by an authority with *its* best interests at heart, and no longer one that is fundamentally biased towards England, and has to report to Westminster. Quite simply, the country and its people have a right not only to fairness and equality, but to prosper as an independent nation in their own right, without having that prosperity eroded by laws designed to reward England at their expense!
Marco.
Landloper
14-12-2019, 12:57
If Brexit was cooked up by the wealthy, it is strange to reflect that it was a Tory government [along with other powerful & wealthy institutions such as the Bank of England, the Church of England, the CBI, and so on] that campiagned for us to vote Remain. If the suggestion is that the referendum was held to benefit those who keep their wealth protected offshore [such as the anti-Brexit The Guardian newspaper, through their GMG Hazel Acqusitions 1 Ltd, registered in the Caymen Islands], then why are so many of the rich tax-avoiding Remainers and fully supportive of the hyper-capitalist EU?
Westminster class us as a ‘Region’ that’s handy for shooting and fishing, and cheap holiday homes to get away from the rat race in London
England voted to leave the EU
Scotland voted to Remain in the EU
England voted the Tories in to ensure we leave the EU
Scotland voted the SNP in to try and ensure we split from England ( no point saying the UK we really just mean England [emoji6] )and rejoin the EU once ‘we’ leave
Why can’t the English population see that WE the Scots want our own rule backed by the EU, just the same as England want theirs ie: not ruled by the EU.
We are fed up being ruled by Westminster who let’s face it couldn’t give a fuck about us up here (Johnson more than anyone who still thinks he’s living in the time of the Highland clearances [emoji2959] ) and see us as a nice little earner.
I can’t wait for NHS to be sold down the river so I can give the biggest middle finger ever and say we told you so!
The latest election was nothing but another Brexit vote.
Even if we don’t rejoin the EU after we split Scotland will do just fine on its own
:clapclapclap:
Nail > Head!, especially the bit in bold!! One of the reasons why I detest the Tories, is because BlowJob-boy is *so* anti-Scottish:wanker:
Marco.
If Brexit was cooked up by the wealthy, it is strange to reflect that it was a Tory government [along with other powerful & wealthy institutions such as the Bank of England, the Church of England, the CBI, and so on] that campiagned for us to vote Remain. If the suggestion is that the referendum was held to benefit those who keep their wealth protected offshore [such as the anti-Brexit The Guardian newspaper, through their GMG Hazel Acqusitions 1 Ltd, registered in the Caymen Islands], then why are so many of the rich tax-avoiding Remainers and fully supportive of the hyper-capitalist EU?
The rich and canny will always cover their bets, so that they'll be OK whatever happens. 'Big business' and the Bank of England have, as you say, been consistently pro-EU, because they know precisely how difficult it will be for us to make trade agreements post-Brexit.
Stratmangler
14-12-2019, 13:15
Why not put some 'meat on the bone' then, Chris, and tell him *why* you think he's wrong? Comments such as the above do nothing to further the debate.
Marco.
Anybody who learned any history in school will have learned of the socio-economic conditions in post First World War Germany.
The punitive reparations (at French insistence) compounded the issues.
Germany had rampant inflation, and they couldn't print and revalue the Mark fast enough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
If you didn't learn of such things then I suggest going to the library and learning.
I don't see problems of the magnitude facing Germany during the Weimar Republic here.
Yes, there are problems, but nothing of the same magnitude as then in Germany.
Westminster class us as a ‘Region’ that’s handy for shooting and fishing, and cheap holiday homes to get away from the rat race in London
Lol - aye, and how true it that, too!
Marco.
Anyway I've said my piece and will say no more.
Enough of this political crap.
Back to the music [emoji6][emoji4]
Landloper
14-12-2019, 14:24
'...the Bank of England have, as you say, been consistently pro-EU, because they know precisely how difficult it will be for us to make trade agreements post-Brexit..'
They have also had to apologize for their incorrect forecasts on the economic impact of Brexit, so I don't set too much store by their claims on other dire consequences of our freedom
Landloper
14-12-2019, 14:34
The point still stands, Marco. Even if the union were more benign, it would still be a bar to Scotland's independence and would still have to go in order for her to achieve full nationhood. Even if every Scottish voter adored the union, it would still mean that Scotland had exchanged some of her self-governing rights in return for membership of the union.
Until 1603 England and Scotland were separate nations, each with their own system of government. On the death of Elizabeth I, childless, the crown passed to James VI, of Scotland because he was the great great grandson of Henry the VIIth. It was James the VI of Scotland who decided not to be a monarch of two kingdoms, but rather to combine the two kingdoms into one, and so proclaimed the union of Scotland and England. In 1604 James first styled himself King of Great Britain. He wans't entirely successful, and the crowns remained separate, though now with shared symbols and and one monarch. But the drive towards the union had been begun by Scotland's attempt known as the 'Union o the crouns'.
The history of relations between England and Scotland is complcated and often bloody, but i mention the above to point out that Scotalnd is far from a passive actor on the historical stage. Indeed without Scotland's active participation in what became Great Britain the history of the British Empire would have had taken a different course. I'm not sure the phrase English ruling class has much meaning, at least when used after 1603. The ruling class has been comprised of the a small strata of the English, the Scottish, and the Welsh peoples for a long time, and is perhaps better described as the British ruling class. I suggest that Scotland played a pivotal riole in furthering the idea of a union which allowed the concentration of class power over the various peoples of the British isles.
The sooner both England and Scotland return to being independent self-governing democratic states the better.
Landloper
14-12-2019, 14:42
Suggestion: the Scotish Parliament should exceed their powers and hold a referendum on Scotland's independence and state beforehand that the result will be binding, and that should a majority vote to leave the union then the Scottish Parliament will without delay declare independence. Let Westminster chew on that.
'...the Bank of England have, as you say, been consistently pro-EU, because they know precisely how difficult it will be for us to make trade agreements post-Brexit..'
They have also had to apologize for their incorrect forecasts on the economic impact of Brexit, so I don't set too much store by their claims on other dire consequences of our freedom
Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.
Landloper
14-12-2019, 15:07
Brexit hasn't actually happened yet.
The predictions in 2016 made by that instituion dealt with the alleged short term impact consequent on the UK merely voting to leave, not the on the bank's projections on possible UK economic performance after the process of withdrawal had been completed.
We'll agree to disagree on some of your other points, John, save the historical facts. However, on this we are in FULL agreement:
The sooner both England and Scotland return to being independent self-governing democratic states the better.
...and they shouldn't have been 'united' in the first place, as Scotland has never been treated, fairly and squarely, as England's equal. Instead, it's forever been ruled by Westminster and a politically London-centric bias,- and which has always irked the majority of the Scots (Welsh and Irish), whether they care to admit it or not.
Equality , as part of the union, is what Scotland and its people have always wanted. Now, they can go one better, and be independent and in control of their own destiny - and we can all get on with looking after our own best interests and those of the country we live in, rather than kidding ourselves on that Westminster is ultimately looking after the best interests of anyone in the UK but England.
Marco [considers himself as Scottish, first and foremost, before British, and so will always have a pro-Scotland mentality].
dave2010
14-12-2019, 16:07
Suggestion: the Scotish Parliament should exceed their powers and hold a referendum on Scotland's independence and state beforehand that the result will be binding, and that should a majority vote to leave the union then the Scottish Parliament will without delay declare independence. Let Westminster chew on that.Have you not followed Catalonian independence? Sturgeon might go to jail!
I'm confused, do the Scots want to be independent or part of the EU?
Pigmy Pony
14-12-2019, 17:32
Jerry for PM :)
Oh my God! There'd be a "cabinet reshuffle" every week :D
Ali Tait
14-12-2019, 17:42
I'm confused, do the Scots want to be independent or part of the EU?
Yes.
Which?
Presumably to both.
Let's have an independence referendum? :idea:
That is for England to be independent of the Union. :)
Let's have an independence referendum? :idea:
That is for England to be independent of the Union. :) Somebody from the SNP ( probably Blackford ) would more than likely call that racist !
Yup, its a plain as the nose on your face.
I'll be happy when i can't hear all the toys being thrown out of the pram, the childish stamping of feet and tantrums by the losing side.
Suck it up buttercups, it's happened.
Deal with it :D
Spot on. Corbyn would have been the worst thing ever to happen to this country.
No they don't. Krankie does, Scotland doesn't.
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 21:33
Interesting comment about food banks, have you wondered why they are used so much?
I see from your location you're from Bristol so are probably familiar with Southmead?
My wife used to work in a school on the estate where a significant proportion of pupils were arriving at school having had no breakfast as there was no food in the house. The really shocking part is that they were picked up from school by parents wearing £100 trainers, lots of tattoos (not cheap) and very often already half pissed at 3pm.
This is a fact witnessed first hand on a regular basis by my wife not a daily mail headline
Exactly, what sort of cretin cannot feed their own kids, food is cheap as hell these days.
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 21:40
'...the Bank of England have, as you say, been consistently pro-EU, because they know precisely how difficult it will be for us to make trade agreements post-Brexit..'
They have also had to apologize for their incorrect forecasts on the economic impact of Brexit, so I don't set too much store by their claims on other dire consequences of our freedom
Give it a chance, we haven't even left the EU yet. After a year or so when the gears begin to grind and the many hurdles that are put in our place for trading with our biggest trading partner begin to take effect we will surely see a drop off in exports. And the promises from Trump turn out to mean little...…….Saying that I don't predict the disaster that some do, in fact today markets have rallied and house sales have picked up so that's good for me anyway (being a removal man).
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 21:42
I'm confused, do the Scots want to be independent or part of the EU?
A third of Scottish Nationalists are pro Brexit. So both.
Spot on. Corbyn would have been the worst thing ever to happen to this country.
In your humble opinion and that of others who didn't vote for Labour. That doesn't make it fact. It may have been the worst thing though that could've happened for the establishment or those with rather selfish London-centric views on politics, in which case BJ-boy is yer man;)
Marco.
Hibster_2000
14-12-2019, 21:46
Exactly, what sort of cretin cannot feed their own kids, food is cheap as hell these days.
Food is cheap? Obviously nobody on a HiFi forum is likely to be living in poverty, but I can assure you that there are people who struggle to make ends meet, and rely on school dinners etc. to feed their kids. There are always exceptions to the rules, where parents don’t seem to care about their kids, and are not responsible enough to have them, but we cannot change this, unfortunately....
Let’s hope Bojo does a good job, and proves himself not to be a bumbling buffoon.
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 21:48
In your humble opinion and that of others who didn't vote Labour. That doesn't make it fact. It may have been the worst thing though that could've happened for the establishment or those with rather selfish London-centric views on politics, in which case BlowJob-boy is yer man;)
Marco.
Much of Labours support came from London boroughs, under Corbyn Labour is dead to the working class, wonder why that is? Still, we all missed out on that free internet eh?
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 21:50
Food is cheap? Obviously nobody on a HiFi forum is likely to be living in poverty, but I can assure you that there are people who struggle to make ends meet, and rely on school dinners etc. to feed their kids. There are always exceptions to the rules, where parents don’t seem to care about their kids, and are not responsible enough to have them, but we cannot change this, unfortunately....
Let’s hope Bojo does a good job, and proves himself not to be a bumbling buffoon.
Yes of course, but I simply cannot fathom not having enough agency to feed your own kids, I think it goes beyond poverty. For many folk these days its not the rate of pay, but that rate of rents that are the problem.
Much of Labours support came from London boroughs, under Corbyn Labour is dead to the working class, wonder why that is?
Yes, because they were too thick to see the bigger picture of what voting for the Trump-like balloon we've got now as PM will mean for our country, and conned by the Tory rhetoric and BJ-boy's promise of 'Let's get Brexit done', because they were sick to death of hearing about it and all the indecision, and so without too much intelligent thought switched their allegiances accordingly to the Tories.
And his promise is almost certain to be broken. BJ-boy, among many other things, is a bigoted, bullshitting buffoon, unfit to comb his own hair, never mind be PM, and in time will be proven as such.
Marco.
In your humble opinion and that of others who didn't vote Labour. That doesn't make it fact. It may have been the worst thing though that could've happened for the establishment or those with rather selfish London-centric views on politics, in which case BJ-boy is yer man;)
Marco.
If you look at London it is predominately Labour. Corbyn isn't Labour. He is a communist and it would have taken this country back to the 70's but without decent music.
I passed my driving test in Blyth so was delighted when they voted for Levy as their MP.
I think you should look to what happened with Labour and why they were deserted by their core supporters couldn't stomach voting for a London-centric labour party.
BJ was a good mayor and could well turn out to be a good PM. Not that you will ever admit it. :)
Mikeandvan
14-12-2019, 22:10
Yes, because they were too thick to see the bigger picture of what voting for the Trump-like balloon we've got now as PM will mean for our country, and conned by the Tory rhetoric and BJ-boy's promise of 'Let's get Brexit done', because they were sick to death of hearing about it and all the indecision, and so without too much intelligent thought switched their allegiances accordingly to the Tories.
And his promise is almost certain to be broken. BJ-boy, among many other things, is a bigoted, bullshitting buffoon, unfit to comb his own hair, never mind be PM, and in time will be proven as such.
Marco.
I think many who voted Brexit will wonder what they voted for, I don't think Boris will even deliver the Brexit they wanted. That doesn't make Labour anymore electable to these people, again, why is that? Why did Labour fail so spectacularly to connect with their core voters? Because it was seen as being the party of Momentum, of conspiracy minded, identity politics obsessed, Israel hating mupppets.
If you look at London it is predominately Labour. Corbyn isn't Labour. He is a communist and it would have taken this country back to the 70's but without decent music.
I passed my driving test in Blyth so was delighted when they voted for Levy as their MP.
I think you should look to what happened with Labour and why they were deserted by their core supporters couldn't stomach voting for a London-centric labour party.
BJ was a good mayor and could well turn out to be a good PM. Not that you will ever admit it. :)
I won't admit it because I fundamentally don't believe it. He was a good mayor because he only cares about London. He doesn't give a toss about the rest of the country, especially Scotland.
And besides, as a Scot, my allegiances are with "Krankie" and SNP/Scottish independence, not Labour. I only voted for Labour this time to try and keep the Tories out of Wrexham, where I live (pre-election a marginal Labour seat), but that failed due to idiots who swallowed the Tory rhetoric and superficial vote-winning claptrap of 'Let's Get Brexit Done', hook line and sinker, thus switching their allegiances to the Tories, which in a working class town such as Wrexham is akin to turkeys voting for Christmas!:doh:
Marco.
I think many who voted Brexit will wonder what they voted for, I don't think Boris will even deliver the Brexit they wanted. That doesn't make Labour anymore electable to these people, again, why is that? Why did Labour fail so spectacularly to connect with their core voters? Because it was seen as being the party of Momentum, of conspiracy minded, identity politics obsessed, Israel hating mupppets.
In your humble opinion:)
I have other ideas.
Marco.
I won't admit it because I fundamentally don't believe it. He was a good mayor because he only cares about London. He doesn't give a toss about the rest of the country, especially Scotland.
And besides, as a Scot, my allegiances are with "Krankie" and SNP/Scottish independence, not Labour. I only voted for Labour this time to try and keep the Tories out of Wrexham, where I live (pre-election a marginal Labour seat), but that failed due to idiots who swallowed the Tory rhetoric and superficial vote-winning claptrap of 'Let's Get Brexit Done', hook line and sinker, thus switching their allegiances to the Tories, which in a working class town such as Wrexham is akin to turkeys voting for Christmas!:doh:
Marco.
We will all find out but I will tell you a story.
When I was a schoolboy in the 70's I was collecting for Barnardos in St Andrew's Square and an owld biddie came up and said are you collecting for Scottish Barnardos or English Barnardos.
I had no idea, I was only 13. She took a leaflet and buggered off. What is the difference? Kids in trouble are kids in trouble.
WE are a union and should stay a union.
I don't disagree at all with your sentiments, but the situation in this case is a little more complex than that.
Marco.
Audio Al
14-12-2019, 23:32
I won't admit it because I fundamentally don't believe it. He was a good mayor because he only cares about London. He doesn't give a toss about the rest of the country, especially Scotland.
And besides, as a Scot, my allegiances are with "Krankie" and SNP/Scottish independence, not Labour. I only voted for Labour this time to try and keep the Tories out of Wrexham, where I live (pre-election a marginal Labour seat), but that failed due to idiots who swallowed the Tory rhetoric and superficial vote-winning claptrap of 'Let's Get Brexit Done', hook line and sinker, thus switching their allegiances to the Tories, which in a working class town such as Wrexham is akin to turkeys voting for Christmas!:doh:
Marco.
Run that by me one more time please :scratch:
:ner:
Ha - well, daftee, as I've stated here many times before, my nationality is Scottish, my ethnicity (a very different thing) is Italian; indeed I have both a British and Italian passport (the latter which could prove useful post-Brexit;)), and my arse is very much Welsh (sheep-shagger):goodfriends: :sheep:
:D
Marco.
It's not really Marco.
We are all intermingled and England hasn't forgotten Scotland. Nor does London ignore Scotland.
I am English, Scottish and Irish and consider myself British. I was Born in England, educated in Scotland and became an adult in Ealing.
Putting a border between Scotland and in my case Northumberland will do nothing but destroy a union that has lasted for hundreds of years. I see no benefit and none either side do.
A few years ago there was a referendum in Scotland and the result was to stay. More recently there was a referendum to leave Europe and it was to leave.
I couldn't vote in the first although my friends did but I did in the second and my side lost.
In a democracy that happens.
If you respect democracy you accept the majority and move on.
Obviously if you Lily Allen you don't.
Ali Tait
15-12-2019, 00:09
Except it wasn't a majority in Scotland. 62% voted to stay in the EU.
It's not really Marco.
We are all intermingled and England hasn't forgotten Scotland. Nor does London ignore Scotland.
I am English, Scottish and Irish and consider myself British. I was Born in England, educated in Scotland and became an adult in Ealing.
Putting a border between Scotland and in my case Northumberland will do nothing but destroy a union that has lasted for hundreds of years. I see no benefit and none either side do.
A few years ago there was a referendum in Scotland and the result was to stay. More recently there was a referendum to leave Europe and it was to leave.
I couldn't vote in the first although my friends did but I did in the second and my side lost.
In a democracy that happens.
If you respect democracy you accept the majority and move on.
Obviously if you Lily Allen you don't.
That's fair enough, but it doesn't change your political beliefs, or desire for change, if what the majority voted for you consider was wrong.
If the whole Brexit thing had been going on during the last Scottish referendum, I think the result would've been rather different (if the Scots knew then that voting to remain as a part of the UK would subsequently mean leaving the EU) - and that's what I believe will transpire when Sturgeon (and the Scottish electorate) get another crack at it;)
I'm afraid I don't share your passion for a 'union', as a true union between Scotland and England has never existed. How could it when Scotland has always been under Westminster rule and treated as a second-class citizen by a succession of English governments?
The fact is, the UK political system as it stands, and indeed as it has always been, is heavily biased in favour of England - and that is neither right or fair, and also incompatible with any true notion of a union, which is why Scotland now seeks to do something about it... And the fact that the SNP gained so many votes in Scotland during this election is tangible proof of the growing appetite among the Scots for independence, and therefore which I believe will become a reality, sooner rather than later!
Marco.
Leaving the EU
When I was doing my apprenticeship in the early 80s one of my college lecturers put the best case I've heard in favour of the EU: That if we have multinational companies we need multinational unions of countries to stop them playing one country off against the other. And I see it all too clearly now with the likes of Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google off-shoring to avoid paying tax. I only see the EU working with some effectiveness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_illegal_State_aid_case_against_Apple_in_Ireland ) to stop this.
Since then I've seen other benefits, from freedom of trade to freedom of movement - I like being able to live or work anywhere in the EU, and hate the fact I'm having that freedom taken away from me.
Saying that, I don't think it is going to be then end of the world leaving the EU. I think it's a mistake, in my opinion, but the country will manage. However, as we have already learnt, the line that leaving would be easy was ignorant wishful thinking. The process is complicated - we have all sorts of relationships that need to be unpicked, from obvious ones like the trade agreement to things like policing cooperation to collaboration on space exploration. Things like the loss access to centralised trading standards checking, means the U.K. will have to replace those services with U.K. only facilities and setting that up takes time and money.
The big lie was that other countries will be falling over themselves to trade with us and that we would find it easy to get better deals than we had via the EU. :doh:
Returning to freedom of movement. I don't think most people's dislike of this is due to racism or zenophobia. I think the problem is not that there are immigrants here, but rather the perception that they get a better deal than native Brits. That they jump the benefits and housing lists unfairly. That they get benefit Brits don't. If those worries/issues were addressed, and the benefits to Brits of having freedom of movement was highlighted, that less people would be against it. Even simple things like properly monitoring the immigration numbers would be good.
So as you can see, I think leaving the EU is a mistake, is going to take a lot of work, but it can be done.
Austerity
Far more concerning to me is what the Conservatives have done to the welfare state and justice system. The huge cuts in funding have been disastrous. We now live in a country where working families are forced to use food banks!
I do voluntary work with the Ambulance Service. I see regularly the effects of ambulances having to queue at A&Es. I'm often the one who's first on scene and having to wait for an ambulance to arrive because too many are stuck at A&E. I see people being referred to the ambulance service because they cannot get access to treatment quickly any other way. I also see ambulance crews and the police having to spend time working with social and mental health issues that used to be picked up by other (mainly local authority funded - and hence slashed) services.
I work in London and see all the homeless people. I don't want to live in country were the least fortunate - or able to manage - are dumped on the streets; but I do.
And I hope none of you are wrongly accused of committing a crime. You will most likely not get legal aid due to the massive recent cuts, and even if you are not found guilt you will not get all your legal costs back due to recent changes in the law.
Labour
So I'm sadden that Labour didn't win, because I believe they would have done far more to reverse austerity than the Conservatives ever will.
So why do I think they lost:
Firstly, I think Corbyn is a decent man, but not a good leader. His dithering over the EU was a huge mistake. And he just isn't charismatic enough. Compare him to Nicola Sturgeon or even Caroline Lucas. Similar politics but those woman were a lot better at putting their cases.
Secondly, Labour have been ignoring their core vote for too long. They've taken them for granted. They needed to be in Wales and the North East listening to people concerns, but I don't think they did enough of that.
But lastly I think they suffered from not having a clear simple policy. Their offering was too complicated and lacked focus. They had nothing to compare to the simple "Let's get brexit done".
Excellent post Rob.
Johnson's "deal" with the EU rolls back all the employment safeguards introduced by the EU, to the great benefit of employers. It will also allow for the dilution of food standards and labelling.
Mikeandvan
15-12-2019, 01:00
The trouble with Brexit and immigration is that no one takes peoples concerns about it seriously. The influx of Eastern Europeans had a massive effect on tradesman and the construction industry, come the downturn, which cyclically will occur, there will be a lot more surplus labour on the market. Though culturally,Eastern and other Europeans integrate with us native Brits far better than other cultures do.
Mikeandvan
15-12-2019, 01:23
Leaving the EU
But lastly I think they suffered from not having a clear simple policy. Their offering was too complicated and lacked focus. They had nothing to compare to the simple "Let's get brexit done".
This election was called because of the Brexit impasse, 'Lets get Brexit done' was entirely in keeping with the spirit of this election, which was basically a 2nd referendum. Labour lost because they were seen as the Momentum party, a coterie of middle class academic leftist virtue signallers par excellence. How could they possibly connect with working class voters? In fact I'm amazed they got 200 odd seats, just goes to show how lacklustre the Tories are to consider voting for such a ridiculous party as Momentum, sorry Labour. Austerity was a shit idea, sometimes economies need serious state intervention to prop themselves up. The Tories are going to do badly I fear, for the country I mean, I see no vision, no ideas. You are bang on about legal aid cuts, this should be more publicised, we are having our basic rights taken away from us. One thing that does get me though is the rise in homelessness, I see this as the rise in uselessness, that is more and more people have become too dependent on the state and cannot provide the basics for themselves. Let's face it, even though some jobs are 0 hours contracts, immigrants come here, work bloody hard, and just get on with it, meanwhile a growing band of cretinous Brits whinge on about how the state doesn't provide everything for them. Mind you the Tories helped create this dependent class back in the 80s by encouraging unemployed to sign on the sick, to massage the unemployment figures, they really are cunts. I live in Brighton, the streets here are full of beggars all pretending to be homeless, fact is none of them are, they are just drug addicts or 'new age traveller types' who I have little sympathy for. So if you were to visit Brighton you might say -ooh, terrible homeless problem there, but you'd be wrong. We do have some homeless, but they don't beg, they just hide away and can perhaps be spotted at night.
Mikeandvan
15-12-2019, 01:35
Not able to view PFM as I was long ago banned for not being quite as Liberal as they are, but they must be having kittens over there at the thought of 'FIVE MORE YEARS OF FASCIST TORIES', ha ha.
I find the triumphalism and name calling boorish and enlightening at the same time. It shows, if nothing else, that we are as divided a society as we have ever been. I grew up in and have spent most of my life in what would be called working class communities, including places that have switched their allegiances in this election to a party that would have been unfathomable only a decade ago. We have become a nation split on the Brexit divide and more and more communities have switched to the leave campaign, believing that leaving the EU will allow Britain to control its own destiny. It will, so the question then is only which party will control Britain's destiny in a way that serves the population of the UK in the best way possible.
My family has been split down the middle. In fact, it hasn't as I am the only one in my entire family who does not support the will of the people. I am dismayed when I speak to my family of former coal miners and my former shop-steward father. I am dismayed that they would seek to ride on the Brexit bus when we are a family of Irish immigrants who fled poverty and famine for a new life in England. I do not ignore their concerns - they believe that they cannot get an appointment at their GP because of immigration and they believe that the record numbers of homeless are because of immigration and that road journeys have become intolerably busy because of immigration. Meanwhile, in a world they describe as nonsense, I suggest to them that not building any affordable housing, despite a manifesto promise, is a part of the homelessness plight. When I say that the NHS and schools have seen declining budgets for a decade they say that the previous Labour government are to blame, as they do when I remind them of a doubling of National debt over the last decade. And when I ask why my family who have moved for a better life to Tenerife are ex-pats and not immigrants, and that we will need to deal with the 5.5m UK nationals who live abroad, they say I shouldn't criticise my cousin.
I only hope that it is I who is proven wrong because if I am right, Moss Side where I grew up is doomed. Burnley, where I worked for five years and which is now Conservative for the first time in living memory, is doomed. If I am wrong, the steel works of South Yorkshire and the North East will grind into action once more as we can independently control what we do.
walpurgis
15-12-2019, 08:39
culturally,Eastern and other Europeans integrate with us native Brits far better than other cultures do.
Really? Speak to the police about that. Oh, I forgot, they're gagged and not permitted to comment about the huge amount of crime they deal with that involves the aforementioned.
In terms of Corbyn though, don't discount the effect of the (mostly Jewish owned and controlled media)
Really? The Daily Telegraph is owned by the Catholic Barclay twins, the Daily Mail by the Harmsworth family (CofE AFAIK, and they backed fascism pre-WW2), the BBC and Channel 4 are publicly-owned, the FT is owned by a Japanese company, News International is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who is of Scottish and Irish descent. So what evidence is there of the media being 'mostly Jewish owned and controlled'?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5KVTMFdwMrc/XJWo2lsxL1I/AAAAAAAASEc/EV6TnzqUs0kyZWikOnHwWmo0xikhEJiBwCK4BGAYYCw/s1600/tinfoilhat.gif
jandl100
15-12-2019, 11:12
Ah well, that's me done with AOS.
That's a shame, it's been fun.
Bye.
Really? The Daily Telegraph is owned by the Catholic Barclay twins, the Daily Mail by the Harmsworth family (CofE AFAIK, and they backed fascism pre-WW2), the BBC and Channel 4 are publicly-owned, the FT is owned by a Japanese company, News International is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who is of Scottish and Irish descent. So what evidence is there of the media being 'mostly Jewish owned and controlled'?
You are correct Joe; the issue is not the religion of the owners of the media. The issue is that they are generally registered offshore so that, like a host of major corporations, they pay little or no tax. They are also a massive influence on British politics and, for me, the two do not go hand in hand. To influence British politics in such a way, you should be contributing fiscally to the UK economy, significantly.
As for the comments about antisemitism, they have been used to repeatedly smear Jeremy Corbyn. This is true whether you believe that he is antisemitic or you don't. It has been a major weapon against him and any evidence to the contrary has been ignored by the British media. The great Noam Chomsky has declared antisemitism to be completely untrue with respect to Corbyn and a creation of the right wing media. The chief rabbi has weighed into the debate recently but was then found to be a personal friend of Boris Johnson so he disappeared from view as soon as this was picked up.
Religions are not to blame but have been used by those who wish to damage reputations.
Labour lost because they were seen as the Momentum party, a coterie of middle class academic leftist virtue signallers par excellence. How could they possibly connect with working class voters?
I really don't understand that argument. If it were true why did so many vote for the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg, who couldn't be further from working class voters in their background.
Really? The Daily Telegraph is owned by the Catholic Barclay twins, the Daily Mail by the Harmsworth family (CofE AFAIK, and they backed fascism pre-WW2), the BBC and Channel 4 are publicly-owned, the FT is owned by a Japanese company, News International is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who is of Scottish and Irish descent. So what evidence is there of the media being 'mostly Jewish owned and controlled'?
If you do some digging around you may discover there are others involved at high levels in the media (and especially at the BBC), with some major influence. I will say no more on that particular matter.
Marco.
Ah well, that's me done with AOS.
That's a shame, it's been fun.
Bye.
Eh.... Why on earth do you say that??:scratch:
Marco.
As for the comments about antisemitism, they have been used to repeatedly smear Jeremy Corbyn. This is true whether you believe that he is antisemitic or you don't. It has been a major weapon against him and any evidence to the contrary has been ignored by the British media. The great Noam Chomsky has declared antisemitism to be completely untrue with respect to Corbyn and a creation of the right wing media. The chief rabbi has weighed into the debate recently but was then found to be a personal friend of Boris Johnson so he disappeared from view as soon as this was picked up.
Spot on, not just the highlighted bit, but the whole lot! And the last bit is also, shall we say, rather 'interesting';)
And by the way, just in case anyone thinks differently, just because you're critical of any particular race, or what they stand for on some issues, Jewish or otherwise, doesn't make you are 'anti' them or racist! No-one in this world is beyond reproach, scrutiny or criticism.
Marco.
chris@panteg
15-12-2019, 12:11
I was wondering if it was a good idea to start this thread, but I think we need to talk about and listen to everyone's views.
I don't have any answers to put it right, but very many Corbyn supporter's are very angry and wallowing in self pity, blaming everyone but themselves.
They need to visit those labour heartlands and ask people why instead of just taking their support for granted.
The thread was a good one to start but comments like 'wallowing in self pity' are not the words of someone who genuinely wishes to listen to everyone's views.
I speak as a remainer.
I speak as someone who moved abroad temporarily, partly because of the UK issues in education.
I speak as someone who deplores the lack of scrutiny of the current government's performance in the last decade.
I also speak as someone whose family are firmly Brexit supporters and will have voted as such in this election.
What is shocking, and needs to be examined completely, is that a party has been re-elected despite it generally being considered that they have done a very, very poor job while in government. The opposition has to take responsibility for that. We also need to examine other issues at play, like the role of the media and the issues around self interest and conflict of interest in politics.
I am open to discussion that includes both sides listening to each other.
Anti-semitism often takes the form of the argument that 'the Jews control everything', with the spoken or unspoken implication that 'something must be done about it'. This is an argument that is deployed by both right-wing and left-wing politicians; the right-wing element playing on the nationalist sentiment that Jews are 'alien' and not really German/English/whatever, and the left-wing element playing on class-envy: 'Look how rich those Jews are, and how poor you are'. Saying that the media is 'mostly Jewish owned and controlled' and then backing off when asked to produce evidence looks disingenuous at best.
I was wondering if it was a good idea to start this thread, but I think we need to talk about and listen to everyone's views.
I don't have any answers to put it right, but very many Corbyn supporter's are very angry and wallowing in self pity, blaming everyone but themselves.
They need to visit those labour heartlands and ask people why instead of just taking their support for granted.
The danger signals for me started when Gordon Brown, thinking his mic was switched off, muttered that a woman in a Northern constituency who expressed concern about levels of immigration from Eastern Europe was a 'typical bigot'. Labour when in power consistently ignored the problems of towns across the country where schools, hospitals and other public services were under huge pressure because of high levels of immigration. The Tories have done little to address the problem either, but they have made the right noises. In Scotland Labour became increasingly irrelevant given the growing popularity of the SNP, who successfully argued that a London-based Labour Party would never take Scotland's problems seriously.
Anti-semitism often takes the form of the argument that 'the Jews control everything', with the spoken or unspoken implication that 'something must be done about it'. This is an argument that is deployed by both right-wing and left-wing politicians; the right-wing element playing on the nationalist sentiment that Jews are 'alien' and not really German/English/whatever, and the left-wing element playing on class-envy: 'Look how rich those Jews are, and how poor you are'. Saying that the media is 'mostly Jewish owned and controlled' and then backing off when asked to produce evidence looks disingenuous at best.
when times are tough a scapegoat is always found
Anti-semitism often takes the form of the argument that 'the Jews control everything', with the spoken or unspoken implication that 'something must be done about it'. This is an argument that is deployed by both right-wing and left-wing politicians; the right-wing element playing on the nationalist sentiment that Jews are 'alien' and not really German/English/whatever, and the left-wing element playing on class-envy: 'Look how rich those Jews are, and how poor you are'. Saying that the media is 'mostly Jewish owned and controlled' and then backing off when asked to produce evidence looks disingenuous at best.
Yes, but that's not what I've done, so don't start with your silly little digs!
I've got good reason to post what I did in reference to the media, the same as I've good reason to believe the stuff I've posted in the past about the Royal Family and paedophiles (some of which is just starting to surface now with Prince Andrew), 9/11, Jill Dando, and Princess Diana's 'accidental death', etc, the 'evidence' for which is out there should you care to do the required research, but which I won't be getting into here simply for you to dismiss as 'conspiracy theory', or become embroiled in a circular argument about, just because what I've stated offends your sensibilities and/or doesn't fit with your belief system.
Marco.
I was wondering if it was a good idea to start this thread, but I think we need to talk about and listen to everyone's views.
I don't have any answers to put it right, but very many Corbyn supporter's are very angry and wallowing in self pity, blaming everyone but themselves.
They need to visit those labour heartlands and ask people why instead of just taking their support for granted.
Spot on. There was a guardian women the other day saying she did nt believe natural Labour supporters in the north/ midlands are going to think any different to the chattering classes of Hampstead.
The difference being of course Hampstead is not an area over run with mass immigration. Now, Camden itself is a mixed area culturally and thats fine in my book but there are always going to be
problems when peeps see there town completely change ethnically ( for won't of a better word ) during there lifetime.
Mikeandvan
15-12-2019, 12:58
I really don't understand that argument. If it were true why did so many vote for the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg, who couldn't be further from working class voters in their background.
Would you have said the same of Thatchers govt back in the 80s? Many working class folk are aspirational, they like how the system works, for many people the competitive nature of capitalism seems natural. Boris has a blokey persona, he is clever like that, the Momentum persona is of an uptight academic lefty droning on about pc language, white privilege, trans rights, etc I wonder why they don't connect with the 'man in the street'!
In Scotland Labour became increasingly irrelevant given the growing popularity of the SNP, who successfully argued that a London-based Labour Party would never take Scotland's problems seriously.
And neither has ANY London-based English government since the inception of Westminster, which is precisely the problem Scots have always faced, and why the SNP has always been popular in Scotland, never more so than now. It's been a grossly unfair political system for centuries, biased towards England, and now the Scots rightly want out!
Marco.
Yes, but that's not what I've done, so don't start with your silly little digs!
I've got good reason to post what I did in reference to the media, the same as I've good reason to believe the stuff I've posted in the past about the Royal Family and paedophiles (some of which is just starting to surface now with Prince Andrew), 9/11, Jill Dando, and Princess Diana's 'accidental death', etc, the 'evidence' of which is out there should you care to do the required research, but which I won't be getting into here simply for you to dismiss as 'conspiracy theory', or become embroiled in a circular argument about, just because what I've stated offends your sensibilities and/or doesn't fit with your belief system.
Marco.
I think you've just proved my point! I countered your claim about Jewish ownership of the media with the actual facts, which show that the media is mostly not Jewish-owned, and you come back with a lot of bluster about random conspiracy theories. I think my time with AoS is at an end.
And neither has ANY London-based English government since the inception of Westminster, which is precisely the problem Scots have always faced, and why the SNP has always been popular in Scotland, never more so than now. It's been a grossly unfair political system for years, biased towards England, and now the Scots rightly want out!
Marco.. Yes, they had a great election but I hear plenty of people on phone in s moaning about SNP. She may be Krankie but she don't make me laugh :lol:. I was Wrong there though she just did !
I think you've just proved my point! I countered your claim about Jewish ownership of the media with the actual facts, which show that the media is mostly not Jewish-owned, and you come back with a lot of bluster about random conspiracy theories. I think my time with AoS is at an end.
You've proved nothing, other than as usual showing that you only want to consider that which fits with your belief system. What would be the point in linking you to what I consider is evidence supporting my view, when all you would do in return is dismiss it because you disagree. All that would achieve is a pointless circular argument, as evidenced by past events on similar matters, and I've got better things to do!
Stay or go, that's up to you, but don't throw your toys out the pram like a girl just because some folk say things that irk your sensibilities.
Marco.
Stratmangler
15-12-2019, 13:21
don't throw your toys out the pram like a girl just because some folk say things that irk your sensibilities.
Marco.
Welcome to AoS, home of sexist comments :)
. Yes, they had a great election but I hear plenty of people on phone in s moaning about SNP. She may be Krankie but she don't make me laugh :lol:. I was Wrong there though she just did !
Folk moan about politicians all the time, not just about the SNP. Their statistics at this election, and ever-growing popularity in Scotland speaks for itself, regardless of any criticism they've received. "Krankie" is a class act and a damned sight better leader of her party than Corbyn has been of his!:ner:
Marco.
Welcome to AoS, home of sexist comments :)
Give it rest, unless you have something more constructive to say. The smiley at the ends adds no notion of your comment being tongue-in-cheek.
Marco.
Mikeandvan
15-12-2019, 13:42
Spot on. There was a guardian women the other day saying she did nt believe natural Labour supporters in the north/ midlands are going to think any different to the chattering classes of Hampstead.
The difference being of course Hampstead is not an area over run with mass immigration. Now, Camden itself is a mixed area culturally and thats fine in my book but there are always going to be
problems when peeps see there town completely change ethnically ( for won't of a better word ) during there lifetime.
Basically in some areas the native white population have become swamped with coloured people yes? Apparently to be concerned about this is racist! 50 years ago when Enoch gave his infamous speech, the coloured population was a tiny fraction of what it is now. Most Brits aren't racists, they will tolerate difference, gays, trans, whatever, some other countries are very different. The simple point is when you start to displace the native population too much, with people whose culture is radically different. That is the thing, if mass immigration came from France or Spain, this problem wouldn't exist. Down here in Brighton, there has been recently quite a lot of Spanish immigration - an exception to the rule - and we integrate perfectly, same with Eastern Europeans. I've lived in London as well, and everyone is a stranger in that city, smiles are in short supply. I went to view a flat in some East London suburb once, and there were so many Pakistani men walking around in those light coloured robes they wear, I was out of there like a shot. I also remember viewing a flat in pre gentrified Hackney, and over hearing some white thug talking about getting 'tooled up', didn't wanna live there either! Wherever an ethnic group has colonised somewhere, then the natives will feel excluded, that's inevitable living in a connected world, but its happening too much now in the UK and other parts of Europe, with peoples whose culture is too alien to that of Europe, the Tories will do naff all about it either.
Mike, comparing a white guy getting tooled up with a Pakistani man wearing robes is a dubious comparison, in the extreme! The term 'coloured' is no longer used.
I wish we could accept that we are the human race and we inhabit planet earth. I want to feel that I can travel and live anywhere I wish. I want to feel other cultures and experience difference and I then have to allow that in others.
My perspective will be considered Utopian nonsense by many but we have to aspire to something; our time on this land is short. One thing that is true is that we have to be able to discuss.
Well it didn’t take long, less than 24 hours after the election
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/damian-green-social-care-insurance-lbc-1-6425258
[emoji2959]
Well it didn’t take long, less than 24 hours after the election
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/damian-green-social-care-insurance-lbc-1-6425258
[emoji2959]
There has also been some back tracking on the nursing promise.
Mikeandvan
15-12-2019, 14:25
Mike, comparing a white guy getting tooled up with a Pakistani man wearing robes is a dubious comparison, in the extreme! The term 'coloured' is no longer used.
I wish we could accept that we are the human race and we inhabit planet earth. I want to feel that I can travel and live anywhere I wish. I want to feel other cultures and experience difference and I then have to allow that in others.
My perspective will be considered Utopian nonsense by many but we have to aspire to something; our time on this land is short. One thing that is true is that we have to be able to discuss.
It wasn't so much an equivalence, just reasons why I didn't want to live in those areas. Travelling is one thing, being swamped by an alien culture is another. Multiculturalism is a lie, these cultures don't integrate, why should they? They have completely different ways, Europeans don't, we are basically modern and progressive.
There has also been some back tracking on the nursing promise.
well you didnt think Boris and co would actually tell the truth
They don't have completely different ways: some aspects of our cultures are similar and there are some differences; it depends on which aspect you choose to focus on. Aspects of each culture is progressive. We could certainly argue that this conversation is one between the progressive and the status quo.
We need to listen and learn from opposing cultures and opposing views or condemn ourselves, as a species, to war, pollution and poverty.
Landloper
15-12-2019, 14:37
More recently there was a referendum to leave Europe and it was to leave.
.
Gentle point of order: The vote was on whether or not the UK left the European Union, not Europe. The former is a capitalist institution of 27 states, the latter is a continent comprising a minimum of, I think, 44 states, or parts thereof.
The terms 'EU' and 'Europe' are not synonyms any more than the 'USA' and 'America' are.
Landloper
15-12-2019, 14:47
That depends on which biased/manipulated set of statistics you've read best supports your belief system;)
Marco.
Agreed, Marco. Plus the whole fizz about is-Scotland-a-burdern-to England-or-is-England-a burden-to-Scotland? is of no consequence. Freedom is a good in itself and to be desired quite apart from any concerns about will I be personally better off in the union or out of it. What kind of a person would turn their back on their nation's freedom because they might be better of under some other nation's set up anyway?
I was always a remainer but recently changed my standpoint a bit as European attitudes and desires for the EU have become offensive to freedoms.
I think we will be a better nation out of the sleeze and super state ambitions of the German/French led EU. It saddens me but thats how it appears to me.
The EU, was a common trading block, and not supposed to be a superstate with armies etc
walpurgis
15-12-2019, 15:05
I was always a remainer but recently changed my standpoint a bit as European attitudes and desires for the EU have become offensive to freedoms.
I think we will be a better nation out of the sleeze and super state ambitions of the German/French led EU. It saddens me but thats how it appears to me.
The EU, was a common trading block, and not supposed to be a superstate with armies etc
More or less my opinion.
I was (marginally) in favour of remaining. I've changed my view. We'll no doubt have difficulties sorting out our trading with the (remaining) EU, but we'll get it done. I just hope the capitalists don't take the piss (slim hope :rolleyes:).
Landloper
15-12-2019, 15:08
We'll agree to disagree on some of your other points, John, save the historical facts. However, on this we are in FULL agreement:
...and they shouldn't have been 'united' in the first place, as Scotland has never been treated, fairly and squarely, as England's equal. Instead, it's forever been ruled by Westminster and a politically London-centric bias,- and which has always irked the majority of the Scots (Welsh and Irish), whether they care to admit it or not.
Equality , as part of the union, is what Scotland and its people have always wanted. Now, they can go one better, and be independent and in control of their own destiny - and we can all get on with looking after our own best interests and those of the country we live in, rather than kidding ourselves on that Westminster is ultimately looking after the best interests of anyone in the UK but England.
Marco [considers himself as Scottish, first and foremost, before British, and so will always have a pro-Scotland mentality].
Here's another one I think we may angree on: Neither of us wants to be ruled from Westmonster. I'd add that
I don't want to be ruled by anyone, from anywhere.
I want a direct democracy instead, where each citizen has the right to take part in and vote on what is only now decided on by politicians. In other words devolution to citizen level.
As to the original union of Scotland and England, no political union is ever between equal partners for each participant hopes for an advantage over the other, or at least to be primus inter pares.
I do hope that B.Johnson will think again and do the decent thing, because as N.Sturgeon said this morning, the issue is not going to go away just because he refuses another referedum. I would urge a bold stroke on her part, namely calling Westmonster's bluff by holding a referendum and acting on the result without reference to Westmonster.
I belive the union has run its course.
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191215/afb2d3e57db9f50478b9d96c13cde4d9.jpg
Ali Tait
15-12-2019, 16:15
:lol:
Stratmangler
15-12-2019, 16:17
Give it rest, unless you have something more constructive to say. The smiley at the ends adds no notion of your comment being tongue-in-cheek.
Marco.
It might have been tongue in cheek.
I'm deadly serious.
Well you're deadly wrong. Anyway, enough. You've made your point, so from now on, please stick to discussing the thread topic or refrain from commenting.
Marco.
:lol:
Double :lol:
Marco.
P.S John, I'll reply to your spot-on posts later:)
Landloper
15-12-2019, 17:09
The NHS has never been free. Taxpayers fund the NHS. Services free at the point of use stil lhave to be paid for by the nation.
Leaving the EU
When I was doing my apprenticeship in the early 80s one of my college lecturers put the best case I've heard in favour of the EU: That if we have multinational companies we need multinational unions of countries to stop them playing one country off against the other. And I see it all too clearly now with the likes of Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google off-shoring to avoid paying tax. I only see the EU working with some effectiveness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_illegal_State_aid_case_against_Apple_in_Ireland ) to stop this.
Since then I've seen other benefits, from freedom of trade to freedom of movement - I like being able to live or work anywhere in the EU, and hate the fact I'm having that freedom taken away from me.
Saying that, I don't think it is going to be then end of the world leaving the EU. I think it's a mistake, in my opinion, but the country will manage. However, as we have already learnt, the line that leaving would be easy was ignorant wishful thinking. The process is complicated - we have all sorts of relationships that need to be unpicked, from obvious ones like the trade agreement to things like policing cooperation to collaboration on space exploration. Things like the loss access to centralised trading standards checking, means the U.K. will have to replace those services with U.K. only facilities and setting that up takes time and money.
The big lie was that other countries will be falling over themselves to trade with us and that we would find it easy to get better deals than we had via the EU. :doh:
Returning to freedom of movement. I don't think most people's dislike of this is due to racism or zenophobia. I think the problem is not that there are immigrants here, but rather the perception that they get a better deal than native Brits. That they jump the benefits and housing lists unfairly. That they get benefit Brits don't. If those worries/issues were addressed, and the benefits to Brits of having freedom of movement was highlighted, that less people would be against it. Even simple things like properly monitoring the immigration numbers would be good.
So as you can see, I think leaving the EU is a mistake, is going to take a lot of work, but it can be done.
Austerity
Far more concerning to me is what the Conservatives have done to the welfare state and justice system. The huge cuts in funding have been disastrous. We now live in a country where working families are forced to use food banks!
I do voluntary work with the Ambulance Service. I see regularly the effects of ambulances having to queue at A&Es. I'm often the one who's first on scene and having to wait for an ambulance to arrive because too many are stuck at A&E. I see people being referred to the ambulance service because they cannot get access to treatment quickly any other way. I also see ambulance crews and the police having to spend time working with social and mental health issues that used to be picked up by other (mainly local authority funded - and hence slashed) services.
I work in London and see all the homeless people. I don't want to live in country were the least fortunate - or able to manage - are dumped on the streets; but I do.
And I hope none of you are wrongly accused of committing a crime. You will most likely not get legal aid due to the massive recent cuts, and even if you are not found guilt you will not get all your legal costs back due to recent changes in the law.
Labour
So I'm sadden that Labour didn't win, because I believe they would have done far more to reverse austerity than the Conservatives ever will.
So why do I think they lost:
Firstly, I think Corbyn is a decent man, but not a good leader. His dithering over the EU was a huge mistake. And he just isn't charismatic enough. Compare him to Nicola Sturgeon or even Caroline Lucas. Similar politics but those woman were a lot better at putting their cases.
Secondly, Labour have been ignoring their core vote for too long. They've taken them for granted. They needed to be in Wales and the North East listening to people concerns, but I don't think they did enough of that.
But lastly I think they suffered from not having a clear simple policy. Their offering was too complicated and lacked focus. They had nothing to compare to the simple "Let's get brexit done".
The RIGHT to live and work may be taken away but the ability will still remain
Europeans lived and worked here and Britains lived and worked in Europe pre Maastricht so why shouldn't it happen after we leave the EU?
dave2010
15-12-2019, 22:08
The RIGHT to live and work may be taken away but the ability will still remain
Europeans lived and worked here and Britains lived and worked in Europe pre Maastricht so why shouldn't it happen after we leave the EU?Bureaucracy. This will perhaps be more of a pain, and cause delays. Employers, who have a choice of other workers from other EU countries will probably not put the extra effort in for Brits, unless they are really vital for their organisations. It'll just create a significant and extra barrier to employment of Brits in the EU. Totally pointless - but what do I know (other than that I lived and worked in an EU country for several years ...) and was able to travel freely around the EU and back to the UK when I wanted/needed to.
There also won't be any great desire to work with Brits, after this, though many in the EU may feel sympathy for those of us who might still like to work with them and live among them.
The NHS has never been free. Taxpayers fund the NHS. Services free at the point of use stil lhave to be paid for by the nation.
Wait until you have to pay £2000 for an X-ray and £10000 for an MRI or a few hundred £’s every month for your meds [emoji23]
Good job then I'm a healthy big bastard, and take hee-haw meds!:lol::D
Marco [not been near a doctor's for about 10 years].
Wait until you have to pay £2000 for an X-ray and £10000 for an MRI or a few hundred £’s every month for your meds [emoji23]
Where's your evidence for that?
Both the costs and premise
Edit. Google search suggest between $80-500 for a chest xray in USA
Wait until you have to pay £2000 for an X-ray and £10000 for an MRI or a few hundred £’s every month for your meds [emoji23]
Actually the prices for scans aren't that shocking - nevertheless can mount up pretty quickly if you are having a lengthy course of treatment.
I recently made enquiries about getting a CT scan privately ... the linked price list is fairly typical of what I found:
https://topmri.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm4a-veO45gIVV-DtCh2IjA3fEAAYASAAEgJqIvD_BwE
MRI scans run up to £1400 for instance (including report, etc.)
The RIGHT to live and work may be taken away but the ability will still remain
Europeans lived and worked here and Britains lived and worked in Europe pre Maastricht so why shouldn't it happen after we leave the EU?
I lived in mainland Europe for a while in the early 70s (before UK joined the EU) ... was a right pita travelling around, getting work permits. etc.
Much, much easier after 73 but still a while before I could get past borders without some kind of hassle.
If it goes back to that kind of situation I pity anyone who moved over there before the Ref.
Good job then I'm a healthy big bastard, and take hee-haw meds!:lol::D
Marco [not been near a doctor's for about 10 years].
Make the most of it - all that changes after you hit 60 mate :lol:
Get to a Doc - and make sure you get your checkups ;)
Make the most of it - all that changes after you hit 60 mate :lol:
Get to a Doc - and make sure you get your checkups ;)
He don't need to mate. He may not be the Incredible Hulk but he certainly IS the incredible BULK
Make the most of it - all that changes after you hit 60 mate :lol:
Get to a Doc - and make sure you get your checkups ;)
Lol, we'll see... My dad's 86 and takes zero meds, is rarely ever ill, looks at least 15 years younger than he is and is fit as a fiddle. My granddad was the same and lived until he was 92, so good health and longevity seems to run in the family!;)
Marco.
He don't need to mate. He may not be the Incredible Hulk but he certainly IS the incredible BULK
What's that supposed to mean?
Marco.
What's that supposed to mean?
Marco.. What ? You just called yourself a big Bastard. Clearly relates to that. :)
Yes, 6ft2 ins and 16 stone. Thought you were trying to imply that I was a fat bastard;)
Marco.
Yes, 6ft2 ins and 16 stone. Thought you were trying to imply that I was a fat bastard;)
Marco.
No, I know your into power walking and such stuff. It was just a line I thought of quickly and wrongly thought it was funny. lol
No worries:)
Returning to the thread topic, would anyone care to comment on the contents of this article, in terms of *who*, among our current political leaders is likely to be genuinely racist or anti-semitic: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/call-for-probe-of-boris-johnson-for-writing-jews-control-the-media-and-the-n-word/10/12/
So why is Corbyn getting all the flack and not him...?:hmm:
This is also interesting: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-conservative-party-anti-semitism-crisis-nobody-talks-about/06/12/
Marco.
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dave2010
16-12-2019, 07:35
No worries:)
Returning to the thread topic, would anyone care to comment on the contents of this article, in terms of *who*, among our current political leaders is likely to be genuinely racist or anti-semitic: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/call-for-probe-of-boris-johnson-for-writing-jews-control-the-media-and-the-n-word/10/12/
So why is Corbyn getting all the flack and not him...?:hmm:
This is also interesting: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-conservative-party-anti-semitism-crisis-nobody-talks-about/06/12/
Marco.The first article, about the book - "could" be excused on the grounds that the views expressed are not those of the book's author, but rather those of characters inside the book. That is now a difficult one to deal with, as if, for example, an author chooses to depict a bigoted character - for whatever reason - in his/her book, then giving them "realistic" language might arguably be justified. However, this would demonstrate that the author knew such language, and was prepared to string sentences containing such words together. An author would now have to make very clear that he/she did not have any sympathy with the views of characters within such a book, and that might then transfer the onus of interpretation on to the reader. However, an author could nowadays be accused of stirring up problems if other people followed the examples of characters written about. The author could try to use a deniability argument - and it might be very difficult to prove that an author either sympathised with views of any of his/her characters, or was in any way responsble for actions taken by others after reading the book, and it might also be very, very difficult to prove that the author had any deliberate intent with respect to these matters.
These issues of interpretation are nearly always there in novels. Many authors write about people who have undesirable behaviour - murderers, renegades, bandits etc., and some do so from the view point of the principal protagonists. Murder mystery novels are not always written from the point of view of the perpetrators, though they may contain passages which are expressed that way. Are we to ban such works - which can perhaps generally be assumed to be imaginative, not representing or encouraging particular behaviours in readers? If we read a book about a "perfect murder" presumably most of us hope that the book was not intended as a blueprint for committing such an act.
The second article - if true - which I'm guessing it broadly is, otherwise there'd be denials and cease and desist notices, and perhaps even libel cases, is really depressing.
Ali Tait
16-12-2019, 08:38
Where's your evidence for that?
Both the costs and premise
Edit. Google search suggest between $80-500 for a chest xray in USA
An MRI for my dog cost me £2500 a few years ago.
Actually the prices for scans aren't that shocking - nevertheless can mount up pretty quickly if you are having a lengthy course of treatment.
I recently made enquiries about getting a CT scan privately ... the linked price list is fairly typical of what I found:
https://topmri.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm4a-veO45gIVV-DtCh2IjA3fEAAYASAAEgJqIvD_BwE
MRI scans run up to £1400 for instance (including report, etc.)
Again, can we please stop posting facts to contradict people's anecdotal scaremongering lol
An MRI for my dog cost me £2500 a few years ago.
Which probably includes the cost of sedation etc associated with a scan on an animal that are irrelevant in human treatment.
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:lolsign:
Aye, they all need their heads examined!!
Could you do me a favour though mate, and put a '*' instead of a 'u' on the naughty word, as I don't want the site to be linked with that word via Google searches. Ta!:cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-12-2019, 09:22
Which probably includes the cost of sedation etc associated with a scan on an animal that are irrelevant in human treatment.
LOL.
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I did
And I voted leave in the referendum
If I was allowed to vote in a Scottish independence referendum I'd vote for Scottish independence too, for no other reason than to never have to listen that Sturgeon woman whinging again.
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