View Full Version : Michael Fremer said :-
Audio Al
15-11-2019, 03:54
Lets get to the important things , The audio gear the records the clutter the mess :)
That sounds like me :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07NpWk_Xf8
I can't think why, but I watched the whole thing. He is in a very privileged position, and his system would no doubt piss all over everyone's here.
But he is so proud and egotistical, and does not appear to be someone who has used a passion to drive him to personal creativity as so many designers have. So all he seems to be doing is saying "Look at what I've got, isn't it lovely, and I get to play with it and get paid for giving my opinion of gear."
In contrast there are guys here with a millionth his finance, who passionately work at building stuff, rather than just hooking up stuff.
montesquieu
15-11-2019, 16:21
Flicked through it. Comes across as a prize arse.
I spend half my life on conference calls with people just like him who spend their entire existence doing a Kermit the Frog impersonation.
I can't think why, but I watched the whole thing. He is in a very privileged position, and his system would no doubt piss all over everyone's here.
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I doubt it, it's mostly overpriced tat that he gets on permanent loan.
hifi_dave
15-11-2019, 16:55
If it's expensive, it must be good..:rolleyes:
I've seen it before - what an obnoxious show off, nay 'willy waver'!
southall-1998_mk2
15-11-2019, 17:32
Most people respect Michael, simply because he is rich and has sky high status. Plus, his social circle is massive.
S.
montesquieu
15-11-2019, 17:40
Most people respect Michael, simply because he is rich and has sky high status. Plus, his social circle is massive.
S.
Doesn't seem like much of a reason for 'respect'. Americans like rich people as they assume virtue and money go together. Less so in Europe.
Doesn't seem like much of a reason for 'respect'. Americans like rich people as they assume virtue and money go together. Less so in Europe.
Maybe not for much longer :(
Sherwood
15-11-2019, 18:55
If I had his system and music collection I might be a little smug too!
Audio Al
15-11-2019, 22:27
I would be happy with the speakers TT and power amps , that's all :D
Oh hold on :hmm: , I may not have any room left :eek:
Pigmy Pony
15-11-2019, 22:31
If you organise your gear together, you might have room for more. Making a hifi rack would be a good idea (obviously depends on the weather...)
Doesn't seem like much of a reason for 'respect'. Americans like rich people as they assume virtue and money go together. Less so in Europe.
Not so much virtue, as high quality beings, but we all can see now that there is a lot of bad at the top.
Bigman80
16-11-2019, 07:27
I don't know if he was being smug?
He probably gets it thrown at him, that he is bought for his opinion by companies allowing him to keep what he reviews, on the understanding he's positive about the kit.
That's why I think he was being very clear about what he owned.
I don't think we needed the vulgarity of him saying how much everything cost but that's a very British attitude. Don't talk about money, politics or sex!
Great system. I enjoyed the video
Very opinionated Guy, but can be very funny with great wit. He has been around along time and held a candle for vinyl even in the dark days when CD and digital looked like it was going to totally kill analogue.
His video blogs especially on HIFI shows have given me a front seat to shows I would never attend and he is a credit to his journalism in my book. I know some folk don't like him as he can come across a bit brash but thats just the American New Yorker in him.
Yes he has always been biased in favour of vinyl but he has been proven right and long may he continue!! One of the great hifi journalists of all time whether you like him or not.
Wakefield Turntables
16-11-2019, 08:37
It's his money, he spends it as he likes. Jealousy is a horrid trait.
Spectral Morn
16-11-2019, 09:06
Very opinionated Guy, but can be very funny with great wit. He has been around along time and held a candle for vinyl even in the dark days when CD and digital looked like it was going to totally kill analogue.
His video blogs especially on HIFI shows have given me a front seat to shows I would never attend and he is a credit to his journalism in my book. I know some folk don't like him as he can come across a bit brash but thats just the American New Yorker in him.
Yes he has always been biased in favour of vinyl but he has been proven right and long may he continue!! One of the great hifi journalists of all time whether you like him or not.
+1
I like him, I respect him.
Spectral Morn
16-11-2019, 09:09
It's his money, he spends it as he likes. Jealousy is a horrid trait.
His turntable set up videos have paid for a lot of the gear he has. He came up with those, a very simple idea, and made a sucess of them.
His imitation of a record seller who had suffered a stroke was beneath him, and not in the slightest bit funny.
Sherwood
16-11-2019, 18:36
I don't know much about him as a person, but I am surprised he has such a large following. The equipment he reviews is obscenely expensive and beyond the means of all but the wealthiest. An interconnect cable at $18,000 seems very wrong to me somehow.
I don't know much about him as a person, but I am surprised he has such a large following. The equipment he reviews is obscenely expensive and beyond the means of all but the wealthiest. An interconnect cable at $18,000 seems very wrong to me somehow.
How many journalists do you know who review equipment that the average guy can afford?
Spectral Morn
16-11-2019, 18:39
His imitation of a record seller who had suffered a stroke was beneath him, and not in the slightest bit funny.
I agree, his idea of jokes at times is not good.
AJSki2fly
16-11-2019, 18:39
If you organise your gear together, you might have room for more. Making a hifi rack would be a good idea (obviously depends on the weather...)
:lol::lol::lol:
How many journalists do you know who review equipment that the average guy can afford?
"Which" magazine?
AJSki2fly
16-11-2019, 18:46
I don't know much about him as a person, but I am surprised he has such a large following. The equipment he reviews is obscenely expensive and beyond the means of all but the wealthiest. An interconnect cable at $18,000 seems very wrong to me somehow.
I have read a few of his reviews over the years, whether expensive gear or not, not sure how unbiased they are at times, having said that he has obviously made a good living out of it. To Be honest I don't get the $18K cable stuff, apart form the fact that someone is making a lot of dosh. There are only so many cable manufacturers in the world and I hear too often words like artisan hand made cables, there is no such thing, not that I am accusing him of this. Anyway I do wonder how many super expensive cables out there are just carefully selected cables from major manufacturers repackaged with some nice connectors, and a nice expensive looking box. I suppose you could justify the cost by saying that it took years of investigation and listening to find the perfect cable. Off of soap box now.:) I'll go and hide in the corner.:rolleyes:
Bigman80
16-11-2019, 19:43
[emoji38][emoji23][emoji23]
Most corrupt website ever.
[emoji23][emoji23]
Most corrupt website ever.
:lol:
jahsavage
17-11-2019, 07:33
The envy of the success is a strange jealously we English suffer from. American's are proud to show how successful they are.
montesquieu
17-11-2019, 09:29
The envy of the success is a strange jealously we English suffer from. American's are proud to show how successful they are.
I don’t think it’s that in the least. It’s someone blowing his own trumpet so hard you can hear it from space, with a noxious mix of disparaging other people thrown in. Like I said above he comes across as a prize arse.
Admire his system or his knowledge by all means. Admire his money if you must (in the manner of shallow Americans - the sort of valid motivational BS that nauseates on LinkedIn). As a human being he presents himself as a complete and utter Willy Warmer.
Lol - so apart from that, he's ok?:D
That's an old video, which was posted on pfm a while back, and I watched it then. I don't have a problem with the guy at all - he is who he is, and IMO is more 'palatable' than most in his industry. At least he's not boring, as he has a personality [one you either warm to or don't] and also a sense of humour, which many of his fellow reviewers don't.
Most are rather introverted nerds/geeks and measurement freaks, with zero personality or sense of humour (who bore the SHITE out of me), and that for me is what makes Fremer human. I couldn't care less how wealthy or successful he is, so good luck to him. Would I want his system? No!
Would I want his record collection (if I had the room) - YES!:)
Marco.
Lol - so apart from that, he's ok?:D
That's an old video, which was posted on pfm a while back, and I watched it then. I don't have a problem with the guy at all - he is who he is, and IMO is more 'palatable' than most in his industry. At least he's not boring, as he has a personality [one you either warm to or don't] and also a sense of humour, which many of his fellow reviewers don't.
Most are rather introverted nerds/geeks and measurement freaks, with zero personality or sense of humour (who bore the SHITE out of me), and that for me is what makes Fremer human. I couldn't care less how wealthy or successful he is, so good luck to him. Would I want his system? No!
Would I want his record collection (if I had the room) - YES!:)
Marco.
Hear hear :clapclapclap:
Spectral Morn
17-11-2019, 13:20
Hear hear:clapclapclap:
Agreed
I enjoy his Analogue Planet reviews, YouTube videos and his work on stereophile
For me, if you're going to present yourself and speak to the public, on any subject, then regardless of being loved or loathed, just don't be BORING...!;)
Marco.
Fremer has been the LOUD voice extolling the virtues of vinyl and called out CD/ Digital in its early days when it was crap. He needed to be a big personality to fight the juggernaut of the music industry that pushed CD and digital regardless of the sound quality we had to endure. He was almost a lone voice in the wilderness and never betrayed his principles and I admire him tremendously for that because he has been proven right.
He is someone who has put his head up above the parapet and been bold enough to stand up for what he believes in. Some of his words and attitude may not have always been liked by everyone but you have to be a big personality to do what he has done.
Completely agree with your sentiments, Jim. When you're 'out there', like Fremer is, in his field, and are a big, bold personality, you're bound to have your detractors - and I don't suspect he'll give a damn!;)
Marco.
montesquieu
17-11-2019, 21:58
Completely agree with your sentiments, Jim. When you're 'out there', like Fremer is, in his field, and are a big, bold personality, you're bound to have your detractors - and I don't suspect he'll give a damn!;)
Marco.
Perhaps the very definition of a plonker is someone who doesn't care whether he comes across as a plonker - but just because he doesn't care doesn't mean he isn't one.
I watched it a while back and found it quite entertaining, didn't take it too seriously though and I suspect he doesn't either. I did chuckle at his file records by race joke though.
Fremer has been the LOUD voice extolling the virtues of vinyl and called out CD/ Digital in its early days when it was crap. He needed to be a big personality to fight the juggernaut of the music industry that pushed CD and digital regardless of the sound quality we had to endure. He was almost a lone voice in the wilderness and never betrayed his principles and I admire him tremendously for that because he has been proven right.
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As a late adopter of digital (1995) I always wondered how true this was so last year I bought a Marantz player from 1984 just to put the theory to the test. And it sounds fine. Yes, I've got better players, or at least players I prefer, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. No grain, no hash, no harshness, you could listen to it all day. It sounds sweet and clean.
You've only got to look at the rapid take-up rate of CD from 1985 onwards to see that there was no inherent problem. if it had been as bad as it is now claimed the format would have sunk without trace.
I think it was an almost uniquely British thing and stemmed from people using uniquely British amplification like Naim and Exposure, and some similar boutique brands with an 'exciting' or 'live' sound balance. Or they had older amplifiers which overloaded with the 2V input from CD.
I've also bought some original issue CDs from around that time too, just to see if the unlikely theory that the transfers weren't done properly holds any water. In short, no it doesn't.
So Fremer wasn't right about it, not at all. And he certainly isn't the reason for the vinyl resurgence. I'd say a big part of that is due to streaming. No tactile experience, you see. And if you want the tactile experience you go for it all out - vinyl LP - with the needle and the tonearm and the big cover art - not the halfway-house that is CD.
walpurgis
18-11-2019, 13:38
How long before people start telling us how good MP3 really was? :)
As a late adopter of digital (1995) I always wondered how true this was so last year I bought a Marantz player from 1984 just to put the theory to the test. And it sounds fine. Yes, I've got better players, or at least players I prefer, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. No grain, no hash, no harshness, you could listen to it all day. It sounds sweet and clean.
You've only got to look at the rapid take-up rate of CD from 1985 onwards to see that there was no inherent problem. if it had been as bad as it is now claimed the format would have sunk without trace.
I think it was an almost uniquely British thing and stemmed from people using uniquely British amplification like Naim and Exposure, and some similar boutique brands with an 'exciting' or 'live' sound balance. Or they had older amplifiers which overloaded with the 2V input from CD.
I've also bought some original issue CDs from around that time too, just to see if the unlikely theory that the transfers weren't done properly holds any water. In short, no it doesn't.
So Fremer wasn't right about it, not at all. And he certainly isn't the reason for the vinyl resurgence. I'd say a big part of that is due to streaming. No tactile experience, you see. And if you want the tactile experience you go for it all out - vinyl LP - with the needle and the tonearm and the big cover art - not the halfway-house that is CD.
My CD experience from that period was like listening to breaking glassssss.....
CD only became as big as it did because the industry wanted to make it happen plus the people who embraced it wanted the convenience, they are probably the same people who stream spotify on phones via earbuds.
Not saying digital is anywhere as good then as now(mainstream) but top end then was pretty good. Dacs tho have improved, especially in the lower price ranges.
I had digital in late 80's and it was great in many ways. Especially on cans
My CD experience from that period was like listening to breaking glassssss.....
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Mine was equally as dismal which is why I didn't bother until 1995 when it got to the point where there was no vinyl option any more.
But the problem some of us (by no means all) experienced then was not due to the players, or the transfer process. Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to come and listen to 1984 CDs spinning on the 1984 Marantz CD player and hear for themselves. Through Focal speakers too so there's no quarter given!
Every time I see the thread title, I want to add ' ... it was reet petite'.
The Black Adder
18-11-2019, 16:59
Lol - so apart from that, he's ok?:D
That's an old video, which was posted on pfm a while back, and I watched it then. I don't have a problem with the guy at all - he is who he is, and IMO is more 'palatable' than most in his industry. At least he's not boring, as he has a personality [one you either warm to or don't] and also a sense of humour, which many of his fellow reviewers don't.
Most are rather introverted nerds/geeks and measurement freaks, with zero personality or sense of humour (who bore the SHITE out of me), and that for me is what makes Fremer human. I couldn't care less how wealthy or successful he is, so good luck to him. Would I want his system? No!
Would I want his record collection (if I had the room) - YES!:)
Marco.+1
I've never met him so who am I to judge. He's probably a very nice chap.
I wouldn't want his system either nor anyone else's for that matter.
I'm very happy with what I've got and I take great pleasure in appreciating it. And I agree that expensive doesn't always mean better.
His collection is vast but like his system it's not to my taste which is obvious. But I've watched some of his videos before regarding reviews of releases and have gleaned a few nuggets on the back of them.
I have to say that what I've heard he's been spot on so far.
Sent from my BBC Microcomputer 32K
For me, if you're going to present yourself and speak to the public, on any subject, then regardless of being loved or loathed, just don't be BORING...!;)
Marco.
Yes, but it is even better if they are not up their own arses, and can communicate in clear and grammatical sentences, and preferably without the usual arm waving.
Agree entirely, and think he epitomises a lucky spoilt brat, who seems not to have to do much to enjoy his celeb status and luxurious Hi-Fi.
I don't think that having all the gear he has is worth paying the price of having to be him.
Perhaps the very definition of a plonker is someone who doesn't care whether he comes across as a plonker - but just because he doesn't care doesn't mean he isn't one.
Ha - well I've always admired folks who have the balls to say what they think and be themselves, regardless of who might not like it. I'd rather that than bland, gutless, shrinking violets, with about as much personality as an empty cardboard box, boring me to death every time that they open their mouths!
That's not being a plonker: that's having the confidence and self-assuredness to be yourself, and others can simply 'like it or lump it' - an attitude I can relate to myself;)
Fremer: "I don't do this to make friends". Quite... But if he makes some genuine ones along the way, simply being HIM, then that's all to the good. Exactly my mantra.
Marco.
dave2010
20-11-2019, 07:37
Ha - well I've always admired folks who have the balls to say what they think and be themselves, regardless of who might not like it. I'd rather that than bland, gutless, shrinking violets, with about as much personality as an empty cardboard box, boring me to death every time that they open their mouths!
That's not being a plonker: that's having the confidence and self-assuredness to be yourself, and others can simply 'like it or lump it' - an attitude I can relate to myself;)
Fremer: "I don't do this to make friends". Quite... But if he makes some genuine ones along the way, simply being HIM, then that's all to the good. Exactly my mantra.
Didn’t dislike the video - though did it finish early? Maybe the Youtube version is in several parts.
Not consciously aware of Bremer before, and he doesn’t even surface with a simple web search.
The stuff he reviews is seriously expensive though - see https://www.stereophile.com/writer/90
I doubt that any of us here could put together a system with components from his “best” list. The turntable in his list is probably about the same “value” (cost) as our house!
Mine was equally as dismal which is why I didn't bother until 1995 when it got to the point where there was no vinyl option any more.
Eh? I've owned some form of turntable virtually non-stop since 1982, and it was certainly possible to obtain them in 1995, even if you had to go second hand, including with the vinyl itself. It just wasn't very popular then, but that's quite different from there having been 'no vinyl option'.
Marco.
CD only became as big as it did because the industry wanted to make it happen plus the people who embraced it wanted the convenience, they are probably the same people who stream spotify on phones via earbuds.
The first bit is an undoubted truism, and with a good marketing strategy (which was the case at the time), the general public will easily buy into the 'latest craze' and follow fashion, which certainly happened then, regardless of any real benefits that CD had.
The latter I also tend to agree with, as many of those are simply today's followers of fashion, and who aren't particularly sonically discerning, the same as many were in the mid 1980s/early 90s, when we had 'the revelation' of CD. Don't get me wrong, I *like* CD and have never had a major problem with it, but I don't think it has ever represented the format that delivers the pinnacle of audiophile sound quality.
However, there's another important aspect to consider in all of this... And it's that many who jumped onto the CD bandwagon, back in the day, NEVER got to hear vinyl at its best, or for that matter, turntables.
The simple fact is that poor set-up of turntables (and their constituent components) combined with some utterly crap phonostages, especially those contained within budget integrated amps, which many people used back then, was as much responsible for them not hearing vinyl at its best [indeed the complete opposite, as the deficiencies of the electronics in question simply served to highlight many of its weaknesses] and turning to CD, which less capable amplifiers then were 'kinder' to.
The fact is, and this is still true today, it's always been much easier and far less expensive to design and build a decent line-only amplifier, to facilitate good quality CD/digital replay (or before CD, radio and tape), than it is an amplifier and/or phonostage that does proper justice to vinyl. Moreover, how many of us, back in the day were playing records that were dirty and/or in poor condition? Therefore, how could we have ever hoped to hear them properly??
However, the fact that you have to work harder and spend more to hear vinyl at its best, isn't the fault of vinyl. Therefore, neither is it an excuse to condemn it, or claim that CD/digital is sonically superior, *if* you haven't heard what vinyl can truly do in the best set-ups, which essentially is Fremer's position.
And from considerable experience of speaking to people and listening to their systems over the years, it's patently obvious that many have NEVER heard vinyl at its best, and that often the worst of its detractors are those who've never had the ability or wherewithal to experience that, and hear firsthand how it can make recorded music sound so believable and real, and in a way that simply isn't possible from CD or any other digital music format.
I often get the feeling that 'audiophiles' back in the day who so readily adopted CD, and made it their music format of choice, did so not necessarily because of reasons pertaining to sound quality, but because to them it made more technical sense, backed up by the measurements it produced being more 'accurate', and therefore it appealed more to their objectivist mindset...
And for those folk, no matter how many times they hear a better sound from vinyl, they'll never be able to rationalise it with their scientific belief system, and admit it;)
I've always said that sometimes the science gets in the way of the music....
Marco.
Ha - well I've always admired folks who have the balls to say what they think and be themselves, regardless of who might not like it. I'd rather that than bland, gutless, shrinking violets, with about as much personality as an empty cardboard box, boring me to death every time that they open their mouths!
That's not being a plonker: that's having the confidence and self-assuredness to be yourself, and others can simply 'like it or lump it' - an attitude I can relate to myself;)
Fremer: "I don't do this to make friends". Quite... But if he makes some genuine ones along the way, simply being HIM, then that's all to the good. Exactly my mantra.
Marco.
Shrinking violets, oh yes I remember those form the . . . . . 50s and maybe the 60s, but not in modern Britain, or even in western society where egotism reigns, and everybody's view is equally valid. (Ha Ha).
If one is sufficiently a plonker, then one may well exhibit plonker's behaviour because, being a plonker, one is unaware of how others can see we are one.
His platform is ideal for the forming of a mutual admiration society, which to me is not the basis of real friendship.
Shrinking violets, oh yes I remember those form the . . . . . 50s and maybe the 60s, but not in modern Britain, or even in western society where egotism reigns, and everybody's view is equally valid. (Ha Ha).
We all have egos. It simply depends on whether you allow them to control you or not, and also if you're able to recognise and embrace your faults. I think part of the problem with Fremer (and his ilk) is that in general the rather 'reserved' nature of British people conflicts with the opposite of many (successful) Americans!
Plus, we've always been a nation with a tendency to support the underdog more, and praise 'gallant losers', than champion and commend true achievers and winners. In America it's quite different - and that is part of the problem with how people such as Fremer are perceived by British audiophiles.
In that respect, I simply see him as someone who's done well for himself, through hard work, and isn't afraid to show it - and I applaud that attitude!
If one is sufficiently a plonker, then one may well exhibit plonker's behaviour because, being a plonker, one is unaware of how others can see we are one.
Notwithstanding, of course, that the definition of a "plonker" is entirely subjective;)
As for friends, I didn't set out to make any, when starting this forum [rather to express my views on a number of relevant subjects and help others if I could], but have succeeded to make some good ones along the way, as well as upset a few folk, such is life.
As the old saying goes: 'You can't please all of the people all of the time', so you do your best to be true to what you're passionate about and believe in, sticking to your principles in the process, in the hope that someone else will appreciate what you're doing and benefit from it. I suspect that Fremer has a similar mantra, and believes that he's been successful in it.
Marco.
Agree entirely, and think he epitomises a lucky spoilt brat, who seems not to have to do much to enjoy his celeb status and luxurious Hi-Fi.
I don't think that having all the gear he has is worth paying the price of having to be him.
I don't know anything about how Fremer got to be a 'celeb' (even in the somewhat limited world of hifi), but generally speaking in this world, you make your own luck. As far as 'having to be him' is concerned, he seems happy enough being himself.
My golden rule, borrowed from the words of Jesus according to St Matthew, is 'judge not, that you may not be judged'. Or, in aother words, 'Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile away and they'll have no shoes'.
I don't know anything about how Fremer got to be a 'celeb' (even in the somewhat limited world of hifi), but generally speaking in this world, you make your own luck.
I completely agree. I'm also a great believer in karma, and in generally 'what goes around, comes around'... If you're essentially a good person, and set out to do more good than harm, then I believe you'll be more rewarded in life than punished.
Marco.
If one is sufficiently a plonker, then one may well exhibit plonker's behaviour because, being a plonker, one is unaware of how others can see we are one.
Lack of awareness of how others see one is a natural consequence of being merely human, and thus being unable to read other people's minds, so we are all plonkers to some extent. One thing I've found is that the trait one is quickest to identify in others is often one's own biggest failing, as in the Biblical 'mote and beam' saying. (Which makes me wonder what my own biggest failing is, until I remember that I am, in fact, perfect).
One thing I've found is that the trait one is quickest to identify in others is often one's own biggest failing, as in the Biblical 'mote and beam' saying. (Which makes me wonder what my own biggest failing is, until I remember that I am, in fact, perfect).
That is also a truism, although you may not suffer as severely from the conditions of said trait, as the person in whom you identified it. Recognising one's failings, and doing something about them [realising that none of us are perfect], is what separates the former from the latter, and in turn makes them the better person.
Marco.
Eh? I've owned some form of turntable virtually non-stop since 1982, and it was certainly possible to obtain them in 1995, even if you had to go second hand, including with the vinyl itself. It just wasn't very popular then, but that's quite different from there having been 'no vinyl option'.
Marco.
I was referring to new releases, either there was no vinyl release at all, and even if there was, there was nowhere round here still selling vinyl by then. Had some poor experiences with mail ordering vinyl previously, so there was no other option. There's no second hand option for new releases and back in '95 there was still new music worth buying.
I was referring to new releases, either there was no vinyl release at all, and even if there was, there was nowhere round here still selling vinyl by then. Had some poor experiences with mail ordering vinyl previously, so there was no other option. There's no second hand option for new releases and back in '95 there was still new music worth buying.
Fair enough (I see where you're coming from), but in terms of the bit in bold, not even the place you took me to in the centre of Stoke?:)
For me, there's always been shops selling vinyl, *if* you know where to look and could be bothered looking.... In 1995, Wrexham had many more independent music shops, selling CDs and vinyl (as I use to visit them when I came down) than there is now, and currently there are a few, never mind the likes of Glasgow, where I was living back then! And your home town, Liverpool, would've been the same.
As they say, seek and ye shall find.... When something's out of vogue, you can't expect to find it right on your doorstep, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A bit like trying to find olive oil in the UK, during the 1970s, in anywhere other than a chemist....;)
Marco.
Fair enough (I see where you're coming from), but in terms of the bit in bold, not even the place you took me to in the centre of Stoke?:)
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That didn't exist back in 1995. There were only 3 stores round here selling vinyl in '95 - HMV, Mike LLoyd Music and another smaller place I forget the name of. The small place closed and about the same time HMV and Mike LLoyd stopped selling vinyl. The nearest place for vinyl then was Manchester, 40 minutes on the train.
Also can't remember the specific album but I wanted it and there was no vinyl release at all. So I reluctantly bought a CD player.
Funny how the music industry now backs vinyl with a passion. Many artists are now having the release date of their albums delayed until they can get a confirmed production date for the vinyl version to be produced. How things have changed! I am not naive as to the reasons behind this which are predominantly MONEY and revenue. Where as the Vinyl version of a record release was completely ignored and in the 90s wasn't even made available for most material,
now it is an essential earner for the music industry.
Unfortunately the digital version of the music, because of streaming, has become almost worthless. CD sales are still plunging and I would say 90% of streamed music is done for free thanks to Spotify.
So the tables have turned in favour of vinyl!:)
AJSki2fly
20-11-2019, 12:46
We all have egos. It simply depends on whether you allow them to control you or not, and also if you're able to recognise and embrace your faults. I think part of the problem with Fremer (and his ilk) is that in general the rather 'reserved' nature of British people conflicts with the opposite of many (successful) Americans!
Plus, we've always been a nation with a tendency to support the underdog more, and praise 'gallant losers', than champion and commend true achievers and winners. In America it's quite different - and that is part of the problem with how people such as Fremer are perceived by British audiophiles.
In that respect, I simply see him as someone who's done well for himself, through hard work, and isn't afraid to show it - and I applaud that attitude!
Notwithstanding, of course, that the definition of a "plonker" is entirely subjective;)
As for friends, I didn't set out to make any, when starting this forum [rather to express my views on a number of relevant subjects and help others if I could], but have succeeded to make some good ones in the process, as well as upset a few folk along the way, such is life.
As the old saying goes: 'You can't please all of the people all of the time', so you do your best to be true to what you're passionate about and believe in, sticking to your principles in the process, in the hope that someone will appreciate what you're doing and benefit from it. I suspect that Fremer has a similar mantra, and believes that he's been successful in it.
Marco.
Well having viewed the whole of Mr Fremer's video yesterday, and actually concentrated on it I have formed a personal view. So some of what I am about to say may mean others class me as a plonker but to be honest I don't care, so maybe I am one.:lol:
I actually didn't find Mr Fremer being particularly boastful, he was IMO opinion just showing what he had as kit, and pointed out on several occasions this had been acquired over a number of years, and even that he had borrowed money to buy some of it from the bank to get it. I don't understand what people see wrong in that? He obviously is a music fan, and has spent many years collecting records, and presumably 2nd hand as well as new, which I can relate to, but certainly not on the same scale.
The kit he did not own he said was on loan and under test, which is to be expected based on what he does. He also said that it was not the best of listening rooms but had got it to what he wanted, and his system had that wow factor, once again I don't see much wrong with that. I think we all hope our system is special in some way and if a respected reviewers system was not great in the first place then he would not have much to judge other products against, low or hi-end that is.
I am not sure why some find him arrogant, maybe its just because he has some very expensive gear that he is talking about, well so what, my system is relatively expensive in comparison to what others own but that does not necessarily make me an arrogant person. Personally I feel lucky to own what I have and be able to enjoy it, I expect Mr Kremer is much the same but in his case it is part of what he does to make a living.
according to the Recording Industry Association of America, labels shipped 10.2 million vinyl singles and 2.2 million LPs and EPs in 1995. Still, the number of vinyl LPs/EPs shipped actually went up the next year.
https://www.spin.com/2014/05/did-vinyl-really-die-in-the-90s-death-resurgence-sales/
Beobloke
20-11-2019, 12:53
I often get the feeling that those back in the day who so readily adopted CD, and made it their music format of choice, did so not necessarily because of reasons pertaining to sound quality, but because to them it made more technical sense, backed up by the measurements it produced being more 'accurate', and therefore it appealed more to their objectivist mindset...
This may be true for some audiophiles, but I suspect the reason CD was so gratefully accepted by the general public was far simpler - convenience and ease of use!
This may be true for some audiophiles, but I suspect the reason CD was so gratefully accepted by the general public was far simpler - convenience and ease of use!
And the cd player in their Amstrad midi system was a lot better than the crappy plastic turntable sat on top of it.
Even today after 20 years of internet there's a lot of serious enthusiasts who have no idea about the technical aspects of anything and no desire to learn. So there's no way that back in 1983 that technical knowledge was a driver of CD sales.
IIRC a CD was £12 and a vinyl LP was a fiver in 1983, and the cheapest CD player cost more than a Rega Planar 3. Only rich people could afford to get involved. If you look at the sales figures CD only started to take off in 1985. Before that the vast majority of album sales were on cassette tape. Nobody was buying cassettes for their technical superiority!
Tomorrow's World presented by Kieran Prendiville was partly responsible; he was shown scraping and scratching a Bee Gees CD to demonstrate its resilience.
Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms was the first million seller cd and not Quarterflash by was. convenience and it being the latest tech were probably the main reasons for it taking off
This may be true for some audiophiles, but I suspect the reason CD was so gratefully accepted by the general public was far simpler - convenience and ease of use!
Absolutely, but I'm not talking about the general public.
One thing I've learned, on forums especially, is that there are a lot of measurement-obsessed, scientifically minded 'audiophiles' out there, who would no sooner admit that vinyl sounded better (to them) than CD, simply because the latter 'measured better', than they would to secretly fancying their grandmother!;)
The fatal mistake they make is in *always* assuming that the reason they might prefer the sound of vinyl, is because they're being seduced by its 'euphonic' sound, rather than considering the notion that the more 'ruthlessly revealing' sound of CD isn't necessarily more accurate, but simply succeeds in ruthlessly revealing the sonic shortcomings of digital!
The wider point worth acknowledging from your statement, however, is that those who value convenience and ease of use, more than quality (with anything), rarely get to enjoy the best things in life.....
Marco.
I think we all at times can see aspects of ourselves as plonkerish; how many of use live with a constant internal criticism and self loathing I wonder.
Valid points made about cultural differences between America and here, and his overall demeanour is something which I have inadvertently interpreted in the light of, what was, once at least, our cultural preference for humility, but I cannot remember any evidence of Framer's hard work.
Yes, the paper specs of CD probably inspired enthusiasm.
To be scientific is to take into account all of reality, not to be selectively inattentive to the inconvenient.
walpurgis
20-11-2019, 13:42
Tomorrow's World presented by Kieran Prendiville was partly responsible; he was shown scraping and scratching a Bee Gees CD
Can't say I'd blame anybody for doing that. :)
Can't say I'd blame anybody for doing that. :)
Thats just the jive talkin':eyebrows:
This may be true for some audiophiles, but I suspect the reason CD was so gratefully accepted by the general public was far simpler - convenience and ease of use!
A lot of people were drunk right through the '90s ...
A lot easier to put on a CD when you're pissed :rofl:
walpurgis
20-11-2019, 13:48
Thats just the jive talkin':eyebrows:
:lolsign:
or the Saturday night fever.
walpurgis
20-11-2019, 13:56
A Tragedy though.
That didn't exist back in 1995. There were only 3 stores round here selling vinyl in '95 - HMV, Mike LLoyd Music and another smaller place I forget the name of. The small place closed and about the same time HMV and Mike LLoyd stopped selling vinyl. The nearest place for vinyl then was Manchester, 40 minutes on the train.
Also can't remember the specific album but I wanted it and there was no vinyl release at all. So I reluctantly bought a CD player.
So back then you weren't living in Liverpool? Fair enough, but you see this is where you and I are different, perhaps because I've always been used to seeking out things that I like, but which can be difficult to find, or not readily available in my local area.
Growing up in the UK, during the 60s and 70s [even 80s] in an Italian family, and seeking to source authentic ingredients to cook Italian food properly, forced you into that mentality. Therefore, I (and or my parents) regularly travelled into Glasgow city centre, which was a similar distance from our village on the south side, that Manchester was from you, in order to get the foodstuffs we needed from Italian delicatessens, as there was ZERO chance of finding it locally.
And for me, it was a case of adopting the same mentality, back in the day, when buying hi-fi or vinyl. 30 or 40 mins in a bus or train, therefore, to get what I wanted, would've been nothing and all part of the fun!:)
The fact is, if I wanted a new turntable or some records, I'd have to get off my backside and go to where they were sold, so my mates and I [this was during the 80s] would regularly get the bus or train and travel into town, to the visit record stores and hi-fi shops we liked, and that mentality followed through into the mid-90s and beyond, when I had my own car and lived with Del in our first house in Crookston, which was around 30 mins from the centre of Glasgow.
The point I'm making is that you can't always expect the stuff you want to be right on your doorstep... Sometimes you have to make an effort to get it.
I understand that the specific album you wanted back then wasn't available on vinyl, so you needed a CD player, but that didn't mean that just because there weren't as many vinyl albums around in the mid-90s, or that there were no shops in your town selling vinyl, you couldn't still enjoy it, *if* you'd been willing to make the necessary effort:cool:
Marco.
I actually didn't find Mr Fremer being particularly boastful, he was IMO opinion just showing what he had as kit, and pointed out on several occasions this had been acquired over a number of years, and even that he had borrowed money to buy some of it from the bank to get it. I don't understand what people see wrong in that? He obviously is a music fan, and has spent many years collecting records, and presumably 2nd hand as well as new, which I can relate to, but certainly not on the same scale.
The kit he did not own he said was on loan and under test, which is to be expected based on what he does. He also said that it was not the best of listening rooms but had got it to what he wanted, and his system had that wow factor, once again I don't see much wrong with that. I think we all hope our system is special in some way and if a respected reviewers system was not great in the first place then he would not have much to judge other products against, low or hi-end that is.
I am not sure why some find him arrogant, maybe its just because he has some very expensive gear that he is talking about, well so what, my system is relatively expensive in comparison to what others own but that does not necessarily make me an arrogant person. Personally I feel lucky to own what I have and be able to enjoy it, I expect Mr Kremer is much the same but in his case it is part of what he does to make a living.
Me neither, and it's not like he was living in a mansion, adorned with the finest of everything. It seemed like a decent-sized, but fairly normal house, albeit it (certainly in the rooms that were shown) rather cluttered with hi-fi equipment/associated paraphernalia and music software! But that's his job, and also his passion.
Perhaps, therefore, the thing that many are jealous of is not his supposed wealth or success, but rather that he's been able to earn a living doing something that he LOVES - and his home has been able to facilitate that, rather than his wife or partner, if he has one, as is so often the case with others with similar interests, telling him/moaning that he's not allowed to have big speakers, and who are forced instead to work in some dead-end job that they hate, with a boss that they hate even more?:D;)
Mr Fremer is clearly a HAPPY man, who's contented with his 'lot' in life, and experience tells me that that can irk some people [who daily experience the opposite], and cause them to hate you, far more than them resenting how much money you appear to have...
Marco.
.
I understand that the specific album you wanted back then wasn't available on vinyl, so you needed a CD player, but that didn't mean that just because there weren't as many vinyl albums around in the mid-90s, or that there were no shops in your town selling vinyl, you couldn't still enjoy it, *if* you'd been willing to make the necessary effort:cool:
Marco.
Sorry I don't understand, enjoy what? Vinyl, or having to get a train to Manchester and back to buy it? I hate Manchester but I did used to go up there occasionally to buy vinyl in the late 1990s.
AJSki2fly
20-11-2019, 15:15
Me neither, and it's not like he was living in a mansion, adorned with the finest of everything. It seemed like a decent-sized, but fairly normal house, albeit it (certainly in the rooms that were shown) rather cluttered with hi-fi equipment and music software! But that's his job, and also his passion.
Perhaps, therefore, the thing that many are jealous of is not his supposed wealth or success, but rather that he's been able to earn a living doing something that he LOVES - and has been able to use his home to facilitate that, rather than his wife or partner, if he has one, as is so often the case with others with similar interests, telling him he's not allowed to have big speakers, and who are forced instead to work in some dead-end job that they hate, with a boss that they hate even more?:D;)
Mr Fremer is clearly a HAPPY man, who's contented with his 'lot' in life, and experience tells me that that can irk some people [who daily experience the opposite], and cause them to hate you, far more than them resenting how much money you appear to have...
Marco.
Yep, completely agree, I wish I had been savvy enough to do something I loved for my work, instead of the IT crap, still it paid well at the time.
I wonder how many in hifi sales or industry actually love it themselves.
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And the cd player in their Amstrad midi system was a lot better than the crappy plastic turntable sat on top of it.
Having sold them by the bucketload, back in the day in a well-known department store, I can tell you that there wasn't much in it. Both were dreadful, as was everything else about them, especially the speakers!:doh:
The only reason that the CD player would've been considered as "better", would've been because you didn't hear any pops or crackles from records! Other than that, both items were bereft of any sonic merit, if you possessed a decent pair of ears.
Even today after 20 years of internet there's a lot of serious enthusiasts who have no idea about the technical aspects of anything and no desire to learn. So there's no way that back in 1983 that technical knowledge was a driver of CD sales.
That largely sums me up, but it hasn't exactly stopped me from assembling some pretty good systems over the years, as you well know. So that proves you don't need to have great technical knowledge, in order to build a great sounding system!:)
In fact, unless you're an electronics engineer, having great technical knowledge can be a hindrance, as sometimes that knowledge can cloud your views and cause you to reject things, or consider stuff as inferior (simply because on some parameters it measures worse), when actually it isn't.
It can also confuse matters and cause non-technical people, but who are 'impressed' by measurements that they don't really understand, to make the wrong decisions. That's why the likes of some graphs can be unhelpful, as they only depict the black and white, but fail to illustrate the just as important shades of grey...
I've seen it happen many times throughout the years, with the technical superiority of CD, over vinyl, stated by leading 'experts' in hi-fi magazines, etc, having undoubtedly influenced some into believing that CD (or digital) *must* be better [after all the 'experts' say so], rather than simply using their own ears - and that would've happened just as much in 1983, as at any other time, simply because it's human nature.
That's why, as an ordinary individual/music lover, sometimes having great technical knowledge only clouds matters, and it's often better simply to go with your gut instincts!:cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
20-11-2019, 15:26
I have heard pretty much the best CD playback in the 90s, owned some of it as well, and more recently, own some of those as well, and vinyl, well look after, played back on a good turntable, well set up is better.
My AMG Giro, destroys all the CD players I have, including an Esoteric P5, D5 combination, Moon Andromeda, and Marantz CD7.
The things that helped CD do well, back in the day was, small size, no before playback requirements. CD players just worked, no special set up, long play back time possible, no changing sides, lie that digital was perfect, lie that CDs were indestructable.
I think we all at times can see aspects of ourselves as plonkerish; how many of use live with a constant internal criticism and self loathing I wonder.
More than you think - and there are plenty of the breed posting on forums: haters who love to hate, and who resent anyone or anything that serves to showcase their insecurities!;)
Valid points made about cultural differences between America and here, and his overall demeanour is something which I have inadvertently interpreted in the light of, what was, once at least, our cultural preference for humility, but I cannot remember any evidence of Framer's hard work.
Probably more 'work smart' than work hard, but I'm sure he hasn't ended up where he is now simply through good fortune!
Yes, the paper specs of CD probably inspired enthusiasm.
To be scientific is to take into account all of reality, not to be selectively inattentive to the inconvenient..
As for the first bit, indeed so. However, the second bit is spot on, and quote of the year! So much so, that I shall make it into my new signature and credit you accordingly.
You could also say, in terms of the above "inconvenient", that it's allowing your mind to be controlled (instead of guided) by your belief system. Shades of cognitive dissonance, which isn't healthy... What you're describing essentially is LAZY SCIENCE, performed by wannabes and measurists, purporting to be scientists, not the real deal!
Marco.
Sorry I don't understand, enjoy what? Vinyl, or having to get a train to Manchester and back to buy it? I hate Manchester but I did used to go up there occasionally to buy vinyl in the late 1990s.
"Enjoy", as in enjoying the joys of vinyl (playing it and the music it contains), and also a day out in town, daftee!:D
Marco.
Yep, completely agree, I wish I had been savvy enough to do something I loved for my work, instead of the IT crap, still it paid well at the time.
I wonder how many in hifi sales or industry actually love it themselves.
Well I did when I was in the trade, but I didn't turn it into my own business. I did that, rather successfully, with one of my other passions: art and design:)
But yes, there's nothing nicer than waking up in the morning, looking forward to the day ahead, and the chance of making some good money doing something you love that's fun!
For me, that's worth its weight in gold, or rather the satisfaction and contentment it brings, and the subsequent positive effect on your overall well-being. I'm convinced it's one of the reasons why I enjoy such good health.
Marco.
The things that helped CD do well, back in the day was, small size, no before playback requirements. CD players just worked, no special set up, long play back time possible, no changing sides, lie that digital was perfect, lie that CDs were indestructable.
All very true, Neil. However, to a genuine audiophile and hi-fi enthusiast, those things should never be the driving force behind the decisions you make with hi-fi. As I've said before, often the best things in life you have to work at a bit, in order to fully appreciate:)
Marco.
"Enjoy", as in enjoying the joys of vinyl (playing it and the music it contained), and also a day out in town, daftee!:D
Marco.
Yes, I did use to enjoy buying it and playing it, but times change and it's no longer where I'm at. I've re-bought most of my vinyl collection on CD now, will sell the vinyl when I retire/get made redundant. It's all personal and subjective of course, but mostly I prefer the sound of the CD. Not because it's technically better or for any reason other than I just do. :)
AJSki2fly
20-11-2019, 17:22
Well I did when I was in the trade, but I didn't turn it into my own business. I did that, rather successfully, with one of my other passions: art and design:)
But yes, there's nothing nicer than waking up in the morning, looking forward to the day ahead, and the chance of making some good money doing something you love that's fun!
For me, that's worth its weight in gold, or rather the satisfaction and contentment it brings, and the subsequent positive effect on your overall well-being. I'm convinced it's one of the reasons I enjoy such good health.
Marco.
Yes and probably why I have my ailments, due to stress from silly IT projects and bosses trying to make me and teams I was responsible for jump through hoops of fire.
dave2010
20-11-2019, 17:23
And the cd player in their Amstrad midi system was a lot better than the crappy plastic turntable sat on top of it.
Even today after 20 years of internet there's a lot of serious enthusiasts who have no idea about the technical aspects of anything and no desire to learn. So there's no way that back in 1983 that technical knowledge was a driver of CD sales.
IIRC a CD was £12 and a vinyl LP was a fiver in 1983, and the cheapest CD player cost more than a Rega Planar 3. Only rich people could afford to get involved. If you look at the sales figures CD only started to take off in 1985. Before that the vast majority of album sales were on cassette tape. Nobody was buying cassettes for their technical superiority!
I bought a CD player - an early Philips model around 1984. Before that I had turntables, arms and cartridges - and also a cassette deck and even a cheapie portable cassette player and Walkman. Every year or so I’d buy a new pickup cartridge. I started with Garrard crystal pickups, then migrated to a BSR ceramic, then to Shure and Ortofon cartridges. Each seemed to have its own sound and I thought (possibly deluding myself) that each was better than the previous one. I never got round to buying a moving coil cartridge - they were too expensive, and needed extra kit to make them work. Also my first vinyl records were mono - so my first pickups were mono too. Stereo was an improvement, though it was sometimes debatable, as the quality of stereo pickups and some early stereo records wan’t really that great, at the time. I remember the excitement of moving onto stereo, plus some disappointment with the SQ of some records and some early pickups which would hardly track the discs.
There was no doubt in my mind that CDs when those came to market were better compared with records at that time. I’m still not sure that there’s any bias in favour of vinyl to my ears, even now. However, around the time that I got the CD player, I did hear a couple of rather good turntable set ups, and I was surprised at how good they sounded. In the 70s and 80s it would have cost many arms and legs to get sound quality as good as even a cheap CD player. Commercial cassettes were generally execrable. Some open reel tape recorders were really quite good, and in the early 1970s I used one or two to make live recordings.
There were definitely some CDs which didn’t transfer well to CDs in the 1980s - including some supposedly demo quality LPs - the CD transfers of a few were rubbish, but that wasn’t true of all of them. Some LPs sounded almost identical to the CDs on fairly modest equipment - checked by running the CD and LP of the same piece in sync. I also discovered that not all CD players sound the same - some are much better, but it takes time to sort that out. 30+ years on we may now be comparing different things - today’s high end CD players versus similar quality record decks, or perhaps today’s modest CD players against similar quality CD players.
Re vinyl versus CD - if the vinyl is made from digital masters then I don’t see that the SQ should be better on vinyl - it should be similar or worse. If the LPs are of older recordings, it is perfectly possible for the LPs to sound better, as remastering old recordings from master tapes may simply reveal that the tapes have deteriorated catastrophically due to the passing of time, so any CD made from the tapes may sound really bad. Some specialist firms (e.g. Pristine) remaster CDs from LPs, and some do a good job, though in some cases having the LPs still provides a better experience IMO. One example is Keilberth’s recording of the Flying Dutchman - originally released in mono, then some while later in stereo on the Decca Eclipse label. Pristine have remastered that set, but I think the LPs still have the edge - though perhaps I’ve never heard that set under the best conditions. The Sailors Chorus in that set works well with speakers with good bass, as one can hear the stomping of the performers on the stage, which gives it added impact. It doesn’t work so well with poor quality loudspeakers, as then the foot stamping is more or less inaudible.
"The point I'm making is that you can't always expect the stuff you want to be right on your doorstep... Sometimes you have to make an effort to get it. "
This raises what I think is true for me, and possibly others will agree; the greatest satisfactions I have had have been from personal endeavour.
I agree about having satisfying work, but hindsight is a great thing, in retrospect I would not have followed my 'family script' and worked for large organisations for reasons of security. I attended an Amway lecture once, and in that was stated that, "You get what your job's worth, not what you're worth". Large organisations are full of mediocrity, mini-politics and skulduggery, and certainly do not often recognise talent, and when they do, often jealousy is the reaction.
I remember being so excited in the second year of my apprenticeship that I could not get to sleep for wanting to carryon with a project. I later, at the BBC, related this to my manager who responded that I should be in management. At that time the head of External Services Engineering was griping about the low morale of the teams.
It is possible that Framer is caught up in a whirl, and cannot believe his fortune.
And AJSki2fly, I remember going to the Sound Organisation at London Bridge regularly on my days off, and seeing the (late) Derek and Dave Wiley. Often they would be yawning and bored, seemingly pissed off, and I couldn't at that time understand it because they seemed to have the perfect 'gig'.
Cognitive dissonance is useful - provided we act on it appropriately, and adjust our thinking or life to eliminate it for the better.
If we stay with it, it can really damage us.
Yes, I did use to enjoy buying it and playing it, but times change and it's no longer where I'm at. I've re-bought most of my vinyl collection on CD now, will sell the vinyl when I retire/get made redundant. It's all personal and subjective of course, but mostly I prefer the sound of the CD. Not because it's technically better or for any reason other than I just do. :)
Nice one, that's cool:)
I'll take the "mostly" bit though, as I've been there and saw your reaction at bake-offs to hearing vinyl at its best (you know the time I'm referring to], so it's probably safe to say that that sound you heard then is right up there too!;)
Marco.
I think I'd have to go way up market to compare with CD quality.
I think I'd have to go way up market to compare with CD quality.
The set ups Marco is referring to are way up market :) But bloody good. Way past the point where you care what format you're listening to.
Depends what you mean by "way up market"....
My modded vintage Sony CDP cost me around £5k, and sonically competes very favourably with players today costing many times more. My modded Technics SL-1210 has cost me around £7k, and with suitably mint, well-produced vinyl, it TROUNCES any CD player I've heard - at ANY price!:)
Marco.
For me, the reason CD took off the way it did was the portability aspect as much as anything else. I didn't bother with CD until 1995, when I got a company car that had 12 CD disc changer in it, and being able to load up that with discs that were infinitely better than cassettes was a game change for me (as someone who was then driving 50k miles a year for work.)
I'd never heard of Michael Fremer, and didn't bother watching the YouTube video until today, when I put it on expecting to watch 5 minutes and watched it all. I didn't mind him, wasn't offended by his jokes but was mostly impressed by his honesty and passion for his craft. Crap musician though!
The set ups Marco is referring to are way up market :) But bloody good. Way past the point where you care what format you're listening to.
So it *can* be done?;)
Also, you know what I'm like with setting up turntables and/or squeezing maximum SPPV out of them, on a limited budget, so I'd feel very confident of being able to put together a top-notch, but affordable, vinyl replay system that would sonically compete with digital replay systems costing many, MANY times more. And Alex will remember the 'cheap as chips' systems he and Mike put together at Scalford, and people's reactions towards them!!:eek:
You simply use your ears and experience of knowing which 'bits' to put together that will produce the desired effect [synergy] - and *most importantly with vinyl*, be ANAL/fastidious to the point of ridiculousness, about set-up, and the 'hygiene' and quality of the software itself!
Those two areas, along with not spending anywhere near enough on the partnering phonostage, are where most folks get it wrong with vinyl.
Marco.
I listened to/auditioned a lot of CD players in the mid to late '80s when they first emerged. With only one exception, they gave me a headache, so I stuck with vinyl. The sole exception was a Meridian player, which was way beyond my reach then, but which the dealer threw into the mix as an example of 'the best' in CD. I finally bought a CD player in about '93; it wasn't the Meridian, which I still couldn't afford, but an Arcam Alpha, a 'good enough' model which lasted me for 5 years, when I bought an Exposure CDP, which I still have. The Exposure was the one which, to my ears, sounded as good as vinyl. Some years later I picked up a Meridian player, which was equally good and which I still use. Whether I'd find the ones I hated in the '80s any better now is unknowable.
Unlike Macca, I've never sought to duplicate my vinyl collection on CD; I can think of only three examples, all of which were because the LP was knackered to the point of unplayability. Most of my CDs are classical, for which the absence of surface noise and longer playing times are well-suited. I have quite a number of classical LPs, but rarely play them.
So it *can* be done?;)
Also, you know what I'm like with setting up turntables and/or squeezing maximum SPPV out of them, on a limited budget, so I'd feel very confident of being able to put together a top-notch, but affordable, vinyl replay system that would sonically compete with digital replay systems costing many, MANY times more.
You simply use your ears and experience of knowing which 'bits' to put together that will produce the desired effect [synergy] - and *most importantly with vinyl*, be ANAL/fastidious to the point of ridiculousness, about set-up, and the 'hygiene' and quality of the software itself!
Those two areas, along with not spending anywhere near enough on the partnering phonostage, are where most folks get it wrong with vinyl.
Marco.
I agree about the phono stage, it should not be underestimated in its importance. As far as digital goes though my thinking has changed. I no longer think there's any point in spending big money on that side of things. Much bigger rewards from spending it on the amps and speakers instead.
I agree about the phono stage, it should not be underestimated in its importance. As far as digital goes though my thinking has changed. I no longer think there's any point in spending big money on that side of things. Much bigger rewards from spending it on the amps and speakers instead.
And the room, if that's an option. If not, a good headphone set-up is well worth 'investing' in.
I'd never heard of Michael Fremer, and didn't bother watching the YouTube video until today, when I put it on expecting to watch 5 minutes and watched it all. I didn't mind him, wasn't offended by his jokes but was mostly impressed by his honesty and passion for his craft. Crap musician though!
It's an entertaining watch I agree. I don't think much to his reviews mind, just over the top fantasy. But I've nowt against him personally.
As far as digital goes though my thinking has changed. I no longer think there's any point in spending big money on that side of things. Much bigger rewards from spending it on the amps and speakers instead.
100% agree - the old "source first" mantra doesn't apply to digital, especially streaming, and even cheap DACs can produce very good results. I don't spend "big money" on anything (in context to some of you) but would go so far as to say that the speakers are the most important component for me now - completely at odds with the old "rules" but where it makes the most difference in a modern setup, even if the speakers are vintage, if that makes sense.
And the room, if that's an option. If not, a good headphone set-up is well worth 'investing' in.
My room cost 29 grand but it did come with a house thrown in. :D
I hate headphones though. Never used them even when I've lived in box rooms.
Yes, of course you're right Joe, I've recently moved and certainly being reminded of that in a hard way!
100% agree - the old "source first" mantra doesn't apply to digital, especially streaming, and even cheap DACs can produce very good results. I don't spend "big money" on anything (in context to some of you) but would go so far as to say that the speakers are the most important component for me now - completely at odds with the old "rules" but where it makes the most difference in a modern setup, even if the speakers are vintage, if that makes sense.
For me now it's the amplification that's make or break. Never thought I'd end up there. In the olden days it was always either source first or speakers first, you had to be one or the other. No-one ever worried about the bits in the middle.
I'd never heard of Michael Fremer, and didn't bother watching the YouTube video until today, when I put it on expecting to watch 5 minutes and watched it all. I didn't mind him, wasn't offended by his jokes but was mostly impressed by his honesty and passion for his craft. Crap musician though!
Most of his jokes were banal and harmless, though I did like his joking about the water tank being a sub-woofer. However his impression of the record seller, who having suffered a stroke and unable to talk clearly, was IMO beyond the pale.
Audio Al
20-11-2019, 18:44
All components are relevant to the end result :gig:
I said it come and fight me :punch:
I didn't bother with CD until 1995, when I got a company car that had 12 CD disc changer in it, and being able to load up that with discs that were infinitely better than cassettes was a game change for me...
Lol - I'll debate that one with you another day! Have you ever heard car audio, done right, using the likes of a top-notch Alpine or Pioneer cassette machine, playing top-notch recordings on chrome tape, made on a top-notch hi-fi system?;)
The shocking quality of pre-recorded tapes was largely what let down cassette players!
Marco.
Lol - I'll debate that one with you another day! Have you ever heard car stereo, done right, using the likes of a top-notch Alpine or Pioneer cassette machine, playing top-notch recordings on chrome tape, made on a top-notch hi-fi system?;)
The shocking quality of pre-recorded tapes was largely what let down cassette players!
Marco.
I don't disagree - I only ever bought 2 pre-recorded cassettes I can think of - but had a mediocre cassette deck and amp back then, and even using a good turntable, the recordings were easily beaten by the CD multi-changer in the Kenwood system in the car. I have heard some decent setups back in the day, but we're comparing apples with pears - and that's why CD won, because you could just pop them in the player with no faff and it sounded better to what everyone was used to, unless you were an enthusiast. And the reason streaming has taken over from CD is that to most people Apple Music/Spotify/Deezer etc. doesn't sound any worse than CD, but is ultimately much more convenient, and either free or at a much lower cost.
Audio Al
20-11-2019, 19:02
Lol - I'll debate that one with you another day! Have you ever heard car stereo, done right, using the likes of a top-notch Alpine or Pioneer cassette machine, playing top-notch recordings on chrome tape, made on a top-notch hi-fi system?;)
The shocking quality of pre-recorded tapes was largely what let down cassette players!
Marco.
I'm with you on that one, a huge upgrade for me was going from 8 tract Pioneer in my Mini Countryman " complete with wood panneling :eyebrows: White with black windows and a 1340 engine and Minilite wheels , NO car was complete without a rollcage " , up to the NEW cassette player :D
Depends what you mean by "way up market"....
My modded vintage Sony CDP cost me around £5k, and sonically competes very favourably with players today costing many times more. My modded Technics SL-1210 has cost me around £7k, and with suitably mint, well-produced vinyl, it TROUNCES any CD player I've heard - at ANY price!:)
Marco.
Think I only heard your TT once, it was at NEBO 5 or 6, but it was enough to convince me that vinyl was the way to go.
I may be a bit unusual in the audiophile world as I gave up on vinyl in 1983/84 and was CD based only until I heard a TT again in 2014. I had honestly not heard a piece of vinyl in those years but that experience in 2014 made me completely give up CD and return back to vinyl and unlike most folk replacing their treasured vinyl with CD versions I did the opposite!:lol:
Audio Al
20-11-2019, 19:42
Think I only heard your TT once, it was at NEBO 5 or 6, but it was enough to convince me that vinyl was the way to go.
I may be a bit unusual in the audiophile world as I gave up on vinyl in 1983/84 and was CD based only until I heard a TT again in 2014. I had honestly not heard a piece of vinyl in those years but that experience in 2014 made me completely give up CD and return back to vinyl and unlike most folk replacing their treasured vinyl with CD versions I did the opposite!:lol:
James this is the best post I have read for ages , Keep the faith my friend , Vinyl is music at its best :D
James this is the best post I have read for ages , Keep the faith my friend , Vinyl is music at its best :D
:cool:
Think I only heard your TT once, it was at NEBO 5 or 6, but it was enough to convince me that vinyl was the way to go.
I may be a bit unusual in the audiophile world as I gave up on vinyl in 1983/84 and was CD based only until I heard a TT again in 2014. I had honestly not heard a piece of vinyl in those years but that experience in 2014 made me completely give up CD and return back to vinyl and unlike most folk replacing their treasured vinyl with CD versions I did the opposite![emoji38]What you might have missed out on is realising digital is much better if you use a technically crap DAC running a microphonic triode output stage using valves from circa 1920 to the current day.
So when you downgrade it to nearly be as technically terrible as vinyl unquestionably is you get a result.
Huge grin in my face typing that. But it's true as far as I am concerned.;)
I've sat next to Fremer not that he knows it.
I respect his review of the Luxman M-800A power amp. I consider it to be absolutely spot on. He describes it's character so well it is almost uncanny. Genuinely as accurate as any subjective review could be.
What you might have missed out on is realising digital is much better if you use a technically crap DAC running a microphonic triode output stage using valves from circa 1920 to the current day.
So when you downgrade it to nearly be as technically terrible as vinyl unquestionably is you get a result.
Soz, I've read that about six times now and it still doesn't make much sense [don't really get the point you're trying to make]...:scratch:
Marco.
James this is the best post I have read for ages , Keep the faith my friend , Vinyl is music at its best :D
I thought it was R2R, daftee, and with that I'd be in full agreement!;)
Marco.
Soz, I've read that about six times now and it still doesn't make much sense [don't really get the point you're trying to make]...:scratch:
Marco.Bout time someone did take me up on it.
The human ear doesn't seem to care how technically good something is. It just likes hearing certain aspects of music reproduction.
Injecting dither is a simple way to prove the point.
Dither is just random noise. We hear it as space and air. It's been proven in blind listening tests. People prefer the dithered version. Even Porcupine Tree have played with it.
Also a record deck is microphonic by its very nature. So acoustic feedback is another characteristic many people love to hear.
The point is vinyl is bad. And it's bad in a way many humans like. A DAC that emulates this badness to the same extent (well not quite) will display these positive virtues if it's done well. Or good 'bad' if you catch my drift.
Simple enough I reckon.
A lot of my music is so noise riddled you would think it wouldn't matter. But it seems to
AJSki2fly
20-11-2019, 21:28
Think I only heard your TT once, it was at NEBO 5 or 6, but it was enough to convince me that vinyl was the way to go.
I may be a bit unusual in the audiophile world as I gave up on vinyl in 1983/84 and was CD based only until I heard a TT again in 2014. I had honestly not heard a piece of vinyl in those years but that experience in 2014 made me completely give up CD and return back to vinyl and unlike most folk replacing their treasured vinyl with CD versions I did the opposite!:lol:
Actually I have done the same thing over the last 4 years.
A lot of my music is so noise riddled you would think it wouldn't matter. But it seems toNeeds to be the right kind of noise. Clicks and pops are just annoying.
Audio Al
20-11-2019, 21:32
Actually I have done the same thing over the last 4 years.
Top man . Well done :D
RobbieGong
20-11-2019, 22:09
James this is the best post I have read for ages , Keep the faith my friend , Vinyl is music at its best :D
Yep !!
Bout time someone did take me up on it.
The human ear doesn't seem to care how technically good something is. It just likes hearing certain aspects of music reproduction.
Injecting dither is a simple way to prove the point.
Dither is just random noise. We hear it as space and air. It's been proven in blind listening tests. People prefer the dithered version. Even Porcupine Tree have played with it.
Also a record deck is microphonic by its very nature. So acoustic feedback is another characteristic many people love to hear.
The point is vinyl is bad. And it's bad in a way many humans like. A DAC that emulates this badness to the same extent (well not quite) will display these positive virtues if it's done well. Or good 'bad' if you catch my drift.
Simple enough I reckon.
Mmm.. I've highlighted the only bit that I agree with.
The rest of it, IMO, either misses the point or doesn't actually explain what's happening, is rather simplistic thinking, or doesn't reflect my experience. Vinyl is most certainly not bad, at least not where it counts most, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make such sensational sounds with my turntable at NEBO, raved about by everyone who heard it, nor at Scalford, where you raved about it with the Celestion 66s on the end!;)
Marco.
Needs to be the right kind of noise.
Indeed. As Mark E Smith explained in an interview:
“No. The whole point of the thing is that it’s rock ‘n’ roll. That’s what people seem to forget.” He looks at me accusingly. “Working with American producers on the new album was very interesting, because they get a sound that makes people listen to the songs. It’s like a subliminal tone.”
What are you on about?
“Take a heavy metal hit - the song’s crap, what the guy’s saying is shit, what the group is playing is rudimentary heavy metal crap, but what they do is put a little thing in the middle of the sound, like a little click, so you can’t forget it. It used to be illegal. The Ministry of Defence invented it.”
Are you making this up?
The poker face relaxes into a smile.
“No, I’m not making it up. Why do you think people buy Def Leppard records then? They’re from your way aren’t they?”
My room cost 29 grand but it did come with a house thrown in. :D
I hate headphones though. Never used them even when I've lived in box rooms.
I've used them a lot. They're indispensable with small children in the house. When we lived in a flat in That London, the mad Austrian woman across the way used to play opera at insanely loud levels all hours of the day and night. She should have invested in some headphones.
From my stance Marco's expenditure on decks is very high; I think that the speaker end is the most important. I've never really been happy with my Linn, and was in the 90s very happy with my Garrard Zero 100SB, with a G900SE.
Regarding luck, I have trouble with the concept itself. To me in life we have happenstance opportunities occur, and we have to be prepared to take them as they do, but much in the way of disadvantage can be imposed on us from outside by external events.
dave2010
20-11-2019, 23:35
Dither is just random noise. We hear it as space and air. It's been proven in blind listening tests. People prefer the dithered version. Even Porcupine Tree have played with it.
You can disagree with me, if you like. I think that if you apply a very small amount of dither (which you call random noise) most people won't hear it at all. Subjectively I think it reduces the apparent volume level of the music very slightly and make the signal sound smoother. If more is applied - without going wild and making it audible - it may appear to reduce the dynamics a fair bit. The type of "random" noise applied should make a difference, but if only small amounts are used it may not make too much difference what kind of noise is used.
If my hunch is correct (which it may not be) a plausible reason for this is that the brain/ear detects the low level noise, and uses that as a level with which to compare the wanted signal. Apply more of this low level noise, and the signal will appear quieter as the gap between it and the noise floor reduces. As the noise is wide spectrum it is not immediately perceived as distinct, though if overdone and played for a long while I'd expect it to become tiring.
A fair bit of speculation here, but there it is ....
Beobloke
21-11-2019, 00:08
The alleged technical superiority of CD is an interesting point as, if you make the right measurements, which are actually more relevant to the levels generally recorded onto CD or vinyl , it is quite possible to obtain distortion measurements from CD that are far worse than vinyl. I’ve done it myself and it’s quite an eye-opener!
As an aside on Amstrad midi systems, the CD mechanisms in some of the early units were actually almost complete Philips CD players squeezed into an Amstrad box, so weren’t that bad! The less said about the rest of the units, the better, however...
The alleged technical superiority of CD is an interesting point as, if you make the right measurements, which are actually more relevant to the levels generally recorded onto CD or vinyl , it is quite possible to obtain distortion measurements from CD that are far worse than vinyl. I’ve done it myself and it’s quite an eye-opener!
Interesting... Could you elaborate on the above? You may even show some graphs to illustrate your point!;)
As an aside on Amstrad midi systems, the CD mechanisms in some of the early units were actually almost complete Philips CD players squeezed into an Amstrad box, so weren’t that bad!
If that's the case, then their quality wasn't preserved by anything else downstream, thus instead diluted to the point of being unrecognisable, such was the shocking noise that eventually emanated from the 'speakers'!:doh:
Marco.
Mmm.. I've highlighted the only bit that I agree with.
The rest of it, IMO, either misses the point or doesn't actually explain what's happening, is rather simplistic thinking, or doesn't reflect my experience. Vinyl is most certainly not bad, at least not where it counts most, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make such sensational sounds with my turntable at NEBO, raved about by everyone who heard it, nor at Scalford, where you raved about it with the Celestion 66s on the end!;)
Marco.I'm only making two points.
Well let's start with dither my point is a proven fact. How is that simplistic?
I'll admit it was years ago I read it and I have no link, though I could possibly find one. I think it was in Hi-Fi News.
But I can probably find that Porcupine Tree track so you can hear it directly. It will make you smile. Everytime I hear it it makes me smile. It sounds excellent. It's injected into the track at quite high levels but you don't realise it. Then it stops. But the dither plays on. And there's truck loads of it. And you realise you've been 'had'.
Audiophiles need to realise how limited their perceptions are in certain respects. This gives a true example of what you thought you knew must be a good thing, like low noise, quite simply is not under certain circumstances.
AoS insomniacs post. It's 2:55 AM LOL.
I can go beyond these two points if you want more. There's loads of examples where technically crap sounds AMAZING. Tonnes.
Audio Al
21-11-2019, 03:10
I often dither coz i'm a numpty :ner:
dave2010
21-11-2019, 06:21
But I can probably find that Porcupine Tree track so you can hear it directly. It will make you smile. Everytime I hear it it makes me smile. It sounds excellent. It's injected into the track at quite high levels but you don't realise it. Then it stops. But the dither plays on. And there's truck loads of it. And you realise you've been 'had'.
Audiophiles need to realise how limited their perceptions are in certain respects. This gives a true example of what you thought you knew must be a good thing, like low noise, quite simply is not under certain circumstances.
That sounds like an interesting demo, if you can find the link, or the file.
If I understand you correctly about this example, there is a section of dither+signal - which sounds amazing. Then a section of dither alone - which is very obviously audible and not good.
For a comparison it would be useful to have the first section without the dither - to hear if that also sounds amazing.
If all this does hold up, as you suggest, then it would make sense for recordings to have the dither adjusted in some way to the volume of the wanted signal - to give the "amazing" effects where that would be most wanted/desirable.
I wonder if this shows a physical/psychological effect in human hearing similar in some ways to visual optical illusions, which demonstrate the odd way in which our brains/visual systems actually interpret the world.
jandl100
21-11-2019, 07:35
I've been following this interesting thread up until now, but hadn't watched the Fremer video.
I'm watching it now.
I only 'know' Fremer from his Stereophile reviews over a period of about 15 years, up until about 5 years ago when I stopped subscribing.
I always enjoyed his prose, very entertaining, informative and often insightful.
OK, the video.
Firstly, he's laying heavy emphasis on what he actually owns, and yes some of it is really expensive. But you need to be aware of the back story here. He came in for truckloads of criticism on Stereophile and social media for what I might call 'permanent loans' of gear he had from manufacturers whose gear he reviewed. So he's laying heavy emphasis on the gear he has paid for himself, he's not boasting but is defending himself against his critics and explaining the actual facts of the matter.
I was enjoying the talk and the banter, and then my brain reeled and turned off in shock at his immitation of the LP seller who'd had a stroke. I had to pause the video for a while. He's not the most sensitive of people, that could have been done with a whole lot more empathy.
But yes, apart from that, I enjoyed the vid. Interesting guy and he presents well. Although our views differ on streaming, personally I just don't relate to all that emotional ties with physical media stuff.
That sounds like an interesting demo, if you can find the link, or the file.
If I understand you correctly about this example, there is a section of dither+signal - which sounds amazing. Then a section of dither alone - which is very obviously audible and not good.
For a comparison it would be useful to have the first section without the dither - to hear if that also sounds amazing.
If all this does hold up, as you suggest, then it would make sense for recordings to have the dither adjusted in some way to the volume of the wanted signal - to give the "amazing" effects where that would be most wanted/desirable.
I wonder if this shows a physical/psychological effect in human hearing similar in some ways to visual optical illusions, which demonstrate the odd way in which our brains/visual systems actually interpret the world.Slave Called Shiver from Stupid Dreams. Listen to it on the best gear you have.
The alleged technical superiority of CD is an interesting point as, if you make the right measurements, which are actually more relevant to the levels generally recorded onto CD or vinyl , it is quite possible to obtain distortion measurements from CD that are far worse than vinyl. I’ve done it myself and it’s quite an eye-opener!
..
You mean using a signal without dither? Not exactly a real world test. or can you explain some more?
Some distortion measurements here of a 1991 Technics player, nowt wrong with it.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-technics-sl-pg100-vintage-cd-player.9964/
Interestingly the owner says he was not impressed by it back in '91 but now thinks it sounds pretty good. I expect his amplification has got better over the years.
dave2010
21-11-2019, 08:49
Slave Called Shiver from Stupid Dreams. Listen to it on the best gear you have.Found it on Qobuz - should be able to get higher quality. Where in the track do you detect the shifts you mention? Maybe you have inside knowledge!
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/stupid-dream-porcupine-tree/0802644401867
Found it on Qobuz - should be able to get higher quality. Where in the track do you detect the shifts you mention? Maybe you have inside knowledge!
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/stupid-dream-porcupine-tree/0802644401867I need to listen to it again not via my phone which I did to find it.
But from memory there's huge applied dither towards the end. Then the music stops and they carry it on way into the next track and turn it off.
dave2010
21-11-2019, 09:29
Some distortion measurements here of a 1991 Technics player, nowt wrong with it.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-technics-sl-pg100-vintage-cd-player.9964/
Interestingly the owner says he was not impressed by it back in '91 but now thinks it sounds pretty good. I expect his amplification has got better over the years.Or maybe his hearig has changed. I was amused at the "digital rubbish" - which I suspect were totally inaudible, and also the plots showing the noise levels up to 10 MHz - way above human hearing. I'm not suggesting it's not worth trying to measure kit, and explain the behaviour in terms of "objective" measures, such as noise, frequency response etc., but interpreting the measurements may be tricky.
Noise in digital systems may be hard to express in qualitative terms. I once tried to deliberately compress audio down to very low bit rates, and did a few more experiments - some of which surprised me - assuming I did them correctly. I had some audio samples down to 1 bit per sample or less, and they sounded OK to me. Some of them were of birdsong. One of my friends suggested that perhaps birds of the same species would be complaining about the 'orrible distortion! if they heard them.
Actually he was probably incorrect. It seems that the hearing of birds is possibly less good than many humans over a wide frequency range, but may be more acute for some signals. Owls may be able to use hearing to located small mammals at night - e.g.a mouse moving among leaves. See https://ornithology.com/the-hearing-of-birds/
The hearing range of most birds varies from 1000-4000 Hz; humans hear between 20-20,000 Hz (Hertz, a measure of frequency). from the link above.
I'm only making two points.
Well let's start with dither my point is a proven fact. How is that simplistic?
I'll admit it was years ago I read it and I have no link, though I could possibly find one. I think it was in Hi-Fi News.
But I can probably find that Porcupine Tree track so you can hear it directly. It will make you smile. Everytime I hear it it makes me smile. It sounds excellent. It's injected into the track at quite high levels but you don't realise it. Then it stops. But the dither plays on. And there's truck loads of it. And you realise you've been 'had'.
Audiophiles need to realise how limited their perceptions are in certain respects. This gives a true example of what you thought you knew must be a good thing, like low noise, quite simply is not under certain circumstances.
I'm not disputing anything you've written above or previously, as much of it is fact. However, the "simplistic" bit I'm referring to, is the age-old chestnut of 'vinyl only sounds good to the human ear because of it's pleasing colourations', or that we're somehow being 'seduced' by the effects if acoustic feedback.
I'm sorry, I don't buy that as a definitive explanation of its merits, as the thinking is too simplistic. The fact is, there's a lot more going on. Yes, what you're saying I believe is partly true, depending on how appealing said colourations are to an individual listener, but that's certainly not why some others and I enjoy how, when done well, vinyl records treat recorded music.
When you listen to well-produced audiophile recordings on vinyl of live music performances which you've actually attended, and subsequently playing the vinyl of that recording on your system succeeds to transport you back to that gig, as the sound is so shockingly vivid and real, as I have on many occasions, you realise that what you're listening to is not some cosy, coloured sound, imbued with pleasing distortions, but rather, musically, a very accurate representation of the real thing.
And I could cite numerous examples of that, especially acoustic performances by solo musicians/instrumentalists, where every subtle nuance of the sound of his or her voice and the instrument they're playing is laid bare for inspection, such is the LIFELIKE nature of the resulting sound, so no, getting off on 'pleasing coloration' is *not* why I love vinyl, or what I derive from the experience - and I don't care what tests you refer me to that supposedly disprove that, as I *know* what I'm hearing.
Oh, and the BEST [and I mean majorly GOOD] valve phonostages, in my experience [containing the best NOS valves, pre-1960s], succeed to make the vinyl music experience the most real!:)
Marco.
I haven't used my vinyl rig for a while, but when I do I am amazed for about an hour. I empathise with your thoughts.
Then I start to realise what's going on. Because I can hear it. All the flaws become evident and especially so when you move away from the 20% of the pressings you have that sound great. Especially those 45 rpm 12 inchers.
That sense of dimensionality and realness is really there to the ear, though. But it is a product of the medium and it's flaws I am afraid. Feel free to believe otherwise as you do.
Feel free to believe otherwise as you do.
Lol, don't patronise me! I do believe otherwise, because I think you're absolutely and fundamentally wrong!:ner:
Yes, of course it's flawed, SO IS DIGITAL, and I could wax lyrical about its problems, which I can patently hear, and most of all so are any of our speakers, or any of our equipment], but not in the way you describe. Probably best if we just agree to disagree, as neither of us will change our mind.
Marco.
P.S Virtually all of my vinyl pressings sound great, not just 20%!
I only switched back to vinyl after 25 years of digital because it sounded better. If digital gets its act together and delivers a more convincing audio experience I will switch back to digital. I can afford to do both well so its not based on any financial concern, in fact digital would be easy. Buy a Server and a great DAC, sign up to Tidal and Qubuz and I would have all the music I could ever wish for at my fingertips.
Fact is digital for me still has not got there yet, close but not enough to hold my attention and make me sit down and enjoy the musical performance.
I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.
It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.
Bigman80
21-11-2019, 10:09
I only switched back to vinyl after 25 years of digital because it sounded better. If digital gets its act together and delivers a more convincing audio experience I will switch back to digital. I can afford to do both well so its not based on any financial concern, in fact digital would be easy. Buy a Server and a great DAC, sign up to Tidal and Qubuz and I would have all the music I could ever wish for at my fingertips.
Fact is digital for me still has not got there yet, close but not enough to hold my attention and make me sit down and enjoy the musical performance.
I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.
It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.
I don't think Digital will "get there" for guys like you Jim, and that's not a criticism, just a thought based on knowing how deep the love can be for all things analogue.
The PecanPi, which you heard at mine is capable of being spell binding and enchanting and yes, I freely admit that in some circumstances, Digital is harder to listen too. Especially when a mix is dire.
I do feel vinyl is more forgiving in this area and regardless of anyone's opinion, I am now of the mind that a decent digital setup brings more to the table now in terms of musical enjoyment, than it's ever done.
Ay you know too well, I was 100% against digital. Now I am buying CD's to convert to FLAC and I am definitely spinning less black discs than ever before.
If, and it's a big if, I find an affordable DAC that is capable of generating the same or better soundstage and imaging I get from vinyl, that will be the end of black discs here. That's the only area I feel the Pecan falls away, and believe me, it's a minute difference. Possible a littler drier than the vinyl but that doesn't seem to bother me in the slightest.
It seems very reasonable that added noise will alter the waveform, and hence displace some of the cues the ear uses to determine position - positional information, and hence it make this vaguer, and this feel like space.
Just one thing....
We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.
Therefore, and this is the point, if vinyl is so intrinsically [the key word] flawed, as Justin contends, then why weren't those flaws immediately apparent when either Martin or I listened to and compared both of those CDs, which were analysed many times - surely the intrinsic flaws of vinyl, and its 'pleasing colourations', would've been captured on the rip...??
And we both have very revealing systems and good ears, so if there were any obvious, INTRINSIC, flaws present on the digital recording, produced from the vinyl source, then we would've definitely heard it. Plus, I've carried out the same process with 100s of different vinyl albums, ripping them to CD, and the results were always the same: the rip sounded near sonically identical (certainly no obvious flaws) to the source CD.
I therefore put it to Justin [but don't expect him to agree:D], that what he's hearing (which incidentally I also believe is real) is only present on *some* vinyl recordings, and is either a deliberately engineered effect, or a flaw somewhere in the recording/mastering process and/or with the equipment used.
I don't believe that what he's describing is intrinsically inherent in vinyl itself, as otherwise the test above would've revealed it. It's just that weird electronic music you listen to, man!:drunk::ner:
Marco.
dave2010
21-11-2019, 10:18
I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.
It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.I agree - but costs have to be taken into account as well. I note how much Marco's room has cost. At that price I could go to operas at Glyndebourne for the next 15 years - if I live that long, and experience live sound.
I could fly to Leipzig to listen to Bach's Christmas Oratorio in the church he composed for, up to 2040 or so.
Other options - fly to New York to see opera at the Met, or go to the festivals (both Jazz and classical) in Newport, RI at least ten times.
OK - I might now be able to afford to buy seriously good new kit, and fit a room out, though unfortunately we'd probably need an even bigger house - which would wipe out our finances. Though now you're getting me to think a bit more. I don't suppose converting the garage to a listening room makes sense - where would we put all the garden stuff, but the lofts might be big enough. :)
Just one thing....
We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.
Therefore, and this is the point, if vinyl is so intrinsically [the key word] flawed, as Justin contends, then why weren't those flaws immediately apparent when either Martin or I listened to and compared both of those CDs, which were analysed many times - surely the intrinsic flaws of vinyl would've been captured on the rip...??
And we both have very revealing systems and good ears, so if there were any obvious, INTRINSIC, flaws present on the digital recording, produced from a vinyl source, then we would've definitely heard it. Plus, I've carried out the same process with 100s of different vinyl albums, ripping them to CD, and the results were always the same: the rip sounded near sonically identical (certainly no obvious flaws) to the source CD.
I therefore put it to Justin [but don't expect him to agree:D], that what he's hearing (which incidentally I also believe is real) is only present on *some* vinyl recordings, and is either a deliberately engineered effect or a flaw somewhere in the recording/mastering process and/or with the equipment used.
I don't believe that what he's describing is intrinsically inherent in vinyl itself.
Marco.
+1
Yep, digital is by far the cheaper option so its not a financial concern and it has so many other conveniences.
I am not anti digital - I like it but not enough to swap back from vinyl which I believe still sounds better.
I don't think Digital will "get there" for guys like you Jim, and that's not a criticism, just a thought based on knowing how deep the love can be for all things analogue.
The PecanPi, which you heard at mine is capable of being spell binding and enchanting and yes, I freely admit that in some circumstances, Digital is harder to listen too. Especially when a mix is dire.
I do feel vinyl is more forgiving in this area and regardless of anyone's opinion, I am now of the mind that a decent digital setup brings more to the table now in terms of musical enjoyment, than it's ever done.
Ay you know too well, I was 100% against digital. Now I am buying CD's to convert to FLAC and I am definitely spinning less black discs than ever before.
If, and it's a big if, I find an affordable DAC that is capable of generating the same or better soundstage and imaging I get from vinyl, that will be the end of black discs here. That's the only area I feel the Pecan falls away, and believe me, it's a minute difference. Possible a littler drier than the vinyl but that doesn't seem to bother me in the slightest.
I agree with you Oli and I heard it done amazingly well when I popped in the other day. But do you remember what happened when we popped on the Rodrigo y Gabriella.....:)
Bigman80
21-11-2019, 10:34
Just one thing....
We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.
Therefore, and this is the point, if vinyl is so intrinsically [the key word] flawed, as Justin contends, then why weren't those flaws immediately apparent when either Martin or I listened to and compared both of those CDs, which were analysed many times - surely the intrinsic flaws of vinyl would've been captured on the rip...??
And we both have very revealing systems and good ears, so if there were any obvious, INTRINSIC, flaws present on the digital recording, produced from a vinyl source, then we would've definitely heard it. Plus, I've carried out the same process with 100s of different vinyl albums, ripping them to CD, and the results were always the same: the rip sounded near sonically identical (certainly no obvious flaws) to the source CD.
I therefore put it to Justin [but don't expect him to agree:D], that what he's hearing (which incidentally I also believe is real) is only present on *some* vinyl recordings, and is either a deliberately engineered effect or a flaw somewhere in the recording/mastering process and/or with the equipment used.
I don't believe that what he's describing is intrinsically inherent in vinyl itself, as otherwise the test above would've proved it. It's just that weird electronic music you listen to, man!:ner:
Marco.
I think it has to acknowledged that vinyl is a flawed medium. It's flawed by the almost impossible amount of variables, rather than anything else.
For instance, The Digital never has an off day. It's sound quality is consistently high every time I use it. I don't get that feeling when you are sometimes listening to vinyl and things don't sound right. We walk away, come back later and magically, everything seems ok again.
The cartridge is affected by temperature and humidity and then you have all the ball ache of removing any resonance from the rack or shelf etc. Then you have the medium itself. If it isn't in tiptop condition, it can sound terrible. Setup is KING for vinyl whereas you can dump a dac anywhere an expect no variation in quality. My Pecan is literally just dangling in the air on the cables lol
IME, only if you are prepared to go 100% into vinyl replay, can you expect to match the SQ of digital. Obviously, a few of us have done this and been meticulous with our setups and yes, at the moment, Vinyl is still winning overall, but DACs are coming and they will rule eventually.
Bigman80
21-11-2019, 10:36
I agree with you Oli and I heard it done amazingly well when I popped in the other day. But do you remember what happened when we popped on the Rodrigo y Gabriella.....:)
Oh I do! Which is why next time you are here, we will hear the Digital version of it.
£250 Digital setup Vs. £5k vinyl setup, in the same system.
BTW, im not treading on Vinyl. Jim, you know how much I love vinyl!
P.S Virtually all of my vinyl pressings sound great, not just 20%!
Well that's a world first. Well done, LOL;) (Possibly patronising but in jest).
Let's agree to differ. I wasn't patronising you BTW. I know you're just going to stick to your guns no matter what. I know what you believe.
Oh I do! Which is why next time you are here, we will hear the Digital version of it.
£250 Digital setup Vs. £5k vinyl setup, in the same system.
BTW, im not treading on Vinyl. Jim, you know how much I love vinyl!
I know mate and I understand where your coming from.
Bigman80
21-11-2019, 10:47
I know mate and I understand where your coming from.I know you do. We have discussed it at length haven't we lol.
Will we ever figure it out???
I think it has to acknowledged that vinyl is a flawed medium. It's flawed by the almost impossible amount of variables, rather than anything else.
Yup, but no-one's disputing that, certainly not me - just not flawed in the way Justin describes. *Everything* in hi-fi is flawed to some degree, especially speakers, where the sound eventually emits from, and which have more measured distortion than anything else, by an order of magnitude! So that kind of renders worrying about how 'accurate' vinyl (or anything else upstream) is as somewhat ridiculous!;)
IME, only if you are prepared to go 100% into vinyl replay, can you expect to match the SQ of digital.
I completely agree. That's why, as I've said before, there is very little disparity between the sound of my T/T and my CD player, when both are playing the same music (as I have umpteen albums of the same music on vinyl and CD, so comparisons are quick and easy). No-one said getting there though was easy, or cheap!
Marco.
Well that's a world first. Well done, LOL;) (Possibly patronising but in jest).
Let's agree to differ. I wasn't patronising you BTW. I know you're just going to stick to your guns no matter what. I know what you believe.
...to be TRUE, and which is true;)
I 'stick to my guns' because 35 years of experience tells me I'm right, not just to be stubborn or to try and win an argument. And why wouldn't the majority of my LPs sound great? I'm fussy about what I buy and have a great sounding T/T and system, so dude, it's kind of expected...
You haven't answered the point I made about vinyl rips. Care to have a go, or shall we just leave it here?:)
Marco.
jandl100
21-11-2019, 10:56
The speakers we use substantially filter and manipulate everything that is fed to them.
It's for that reason that ever since I got into this hobby nearly 50 years ago I've been a 'speakers first' type of hifi lover.
Amps come next, then source gear, especially with digital.
Open the speaker window on the music wider or clean the glass a little and things can come across very differently. And perhaps lead you to come to different conclusions about the rest of the gear in the system and the nature of what medium is 'best' for you.
The speakers we use substantially filter and manipulate everything that is fed to them.
It's for that reason that ever since I got into this hobby nearly 50 years ago I've been a 'speakers first' type of hifi lover.
Amps come next, then source gear, especially with digital.
Open the speaker window on the music wider or clean the glass a little and things can come across very differently. And perhaps lead you to come to different conclusions about the rest of the gear in the system and the nature of what medium is 'best' for you.
I tend to agree with you there.
Audio Al
21-11-2019, 11:15
I only switched back to vinyl after 25 years of digital because it sounded better. If digital gets its act together and delivers a more convincing audio experience I will switch back to digital. I can afford to do both well so its not based on any financial concern, in fact digital would be easy. Buy a Server and a great DAC, sign up to Tidal and Qubuz and I would have all the music I could ever wish for at my fingertips.
Fact is digital for me still has not got there yet, close but not enough to hold my attention and make me sit down and enjoy the musical performance.
I am certainly not bothered about any of the technical arguments because ultimately it is what I hear that makes the difference and vinyl for me still sounds better.
It is good that we have journalists out there who also believe this and have held their head above the parapet because for so many years the majority simply jumped on the digital bandwagon.
+1
The speakers we use substantially filter and manipulate everything that is fed to them.
It's for that reason that ever since I got into this hobby nearly 50 years ago I've been a 'speakers first' type of hifi lover.
Amps come next, then source gear, especially with digital.
Open the speaker window on the music wider or clean the glass a little and things can come across very differently. And perhaps lead you to come to different conclusions about the rest of the gear in the system and the nature of what medium is 'best' for you.Massive point Jerry.
Tannoise are particularly sympathetic to vinyl I find.
My Apogees? No. They tell you it ain't that great. And you can hear why. You can even see why. The bass panels show you the LF is all over the place. You can see the warps and ripples right in front of you.
The speakers we use substantially filter and manipulate everything that is fed to them.
Not to mention how they interact with the room, which is also kind of significant...
But yes, you're absolutely right, which is why fretting over 'flaws' upstream, in vinyl or otherwise, which in comparison are minor, is a little 'silly' to say the least!;)
I'd also argue that if you mainly listen to electronic music, which by its very nature isn't real, and manufactured, then it going to be difficult judging how 'accurate' the sound is that you're listening to, whether or not it's been recorded on a digital or analogue format.
Therefore, I'd contend that the only way to accurately judge the flaws of the vinyl medium is to use sounds that are natural and real [not electronic noises], and which through the years, our ears have become attuned to, and in turn developed an accurate perception of, such as the human voice.
Good acoustic recordings of such have always been the definitive arbiter for realism, when it comes to judging the sound produced by hi-fi systems, or any of their constituent components.
I won't get into the 'source first (or otherwise)' debate, as I have differing views from the majority here, although I'm not a staunch source-first guy, so we'll save that discussion for another day:)
Marco.
Tannoise are particularly sympathetic to vinyl I find.
Is that a deliberate miss-spelling - if so why? And don't get Jerry started on Tannoys!:eek::lol:
Besides, I've owned umpteen different types of speakers, over the years with my vinyl set-ups, and all have shown, to varying degrees, how good the format is (and also highlighted some of its flaws), including the 66s you raved about at Scalford....
Marco.
Not to mention how they interact with the room, which is also kind of significant...
But yes, you're absolutely right, which is why fretting over 'flaws' upstream, in vinyl or otherwise, which in comparison are minor, is a little 'silly' to say the least!;)
I'd also argue that if you mainly listen to electronic music, which by its very nature isn't real, and manufactured, then it going to be difficult judging how 'accurate' the sound is that you're listening to, whether or not it's been recorded on a digital or analogue format.
Therefore, I'd contend that the only way to accurately judge the flaws of the vinyl medium is to use sounds that are natural and real [not electronic noises], and which through the years, our ears have become attuned to, and developed an accurate perception of, such as the human voice.
Good acoustic recordings of such have always been the definitive arbiter for realism, when it comes to judging the sound produced by hi-fi systems, or any of their constituent components.
I won't get into the 'source first (or otherwise)' debate, as I have differing views from the majority here, although I'm not a staunch source-first guy, so we'll save that discussion for another day:)
Marco.
I would say room interaction has an even bigger effect on the sound from my experience.
Is that a deliberate miss-spelling - if so why? And don't get Jerry started on Tannoys!:eek:[emoji38]
Besides, I've owned umpteen different types of speakers, over the years with my vinyl set-ups, and all have shown, to varying degrees, how good the format is (and also highlighted some of its flaws), including the 66s you raved about at Scalford....
Marco.Mr Sensitive. It's just a bit of fun.
The Celestion system was great. Vinyl can sound brilliant. I haven't said it can't. I have said why I think it can sound as good as it does sometimes. But those virtues are also enemies. Noise injection ain't great between tracks and for classical can be unlistenable I find.
Mr Sensitive. It's just a bit of fun.
There we go again - you can't help yourself and don't seem to realise when you're being personal or patronising!:doh:
I'm not "Mr Sensitive"; I'm simply making comment and defending my opinion, whilst having some fun in the progress, and which you're obviously reading as something else. However, if you keep on being patronising and making personal remarks, then it'll cease being fun.
So, I take it's a no to tackling the post I made about vinyl rips? What about the point I made about electronic music not being real? You seem to only address the points you feel are easy to answer, whilst conveniently ignoring the rest:ner:
And let's not forget who opened this can of worms in the first place, and brought up the whole vinyl thing, by making the statement he did earlier:ner::ner:
If you want to be provocative, or a wind-up merchant, then be prepared for the consequences;)
Marco.
im wearing silk today :eyebrows:
Gosh darling, is that in readiness for Christmas?
Marco.
Just one thing....
We've been here before, and I've demonstrated this to Macca, by ripping a vinyl copy of Nat King Cole's 'Live at the Sands' onto CD (a favourite album of his that he owned beforehand on a commercially produced CD, and knew inside out), which I sent to him to compare with his own CD, and aside from some very low-level surface noice, on certain tracks, which you have to expect with vinyl, he couldn't tell the difference - and neither could I. Both sounded superb, and 'sonically correct'.
.
This isn't quite correct. It was Frank Sinatra not Nat King Cole. And it does not sound identical to my CD version, although I wouldn't expect it to as your vinyl copy is a completely different mastering.
It does sound perfectly acceptable of course, why wouldn't it?
Gosh darling, is that in readiness for Christmas?
Marco.
keep my extremities warm old chap:D
This isn't quite correct. It was Frank Sinatra not Nat King Cole. And it does not sound identical to my CD version, although I wouldn't expect it to as your vinyl copy is a completely different mastering.
It does sound perfectly acceptable of course, why wouldn't it?
Sorry, I meant Frank Sinatra (which I was thinking but somehow typed something else), my boob!:doh:
Sure, by my point is, you didn't detect any obvious sonic flaws in the vinyl rip, compared with your digitally-only produced CD, which you would've done had Justin's assertions been correct.
Marco.
There we go again - you can't help yourself and don't seem to realise when you're being personal or patronising!:doh:
I'm not "Mr Sensitive"; I'm simply making comment and defending my opinion, whilst having some fun in the progress, and which you're obviously reading as something else. However, if you keep on being patronising and making personal remarks, then it'll cease being fun.
So, I take it's a no to tackling the post I made about vinyl rips? What about the point I made about electronic music not being real? You seem to only address the points you feel are easy to answer, whilst conveniently ignoring the rest:ner:
And let's not forget who opened this can of worms in the first place, and brought up the whole vinyl thing, by making the statement he did earlier:ner::ner:
If you want to be provocative, or a wind-up merchant, then be prepared for the consequences;)
Marco.Marco I am at work doing a job. I cannot devote all my time satisfying your desires about what you think you need to know from me.
To be frank I find your constant assertions that I am patronising you to be absurd. And intensely annoying. How many times do I have to tell you I am not doing so???
I am taking a break to let you cool down again. Get a grip, bro.
Sorry, I meant Frank Sinatra (which I was thinking but somehow typed something else), my boob!:doh:
Sure, by my point is, you didn't detect any obvious sonic flaws in the vinyl rip, compared with your digitally-only produced CD, which you would've done had Justin's assertions been correct.
Marco.
Can't be 'digitally-only', as digital recording hadn't been invented back then. Might be AAD or ADD.
Beobloke
21-11-2019, 12:51
You mean using a signal without dither? Not exactly a real world test. or can you explain some more?
Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%
Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.
dave2010
21-11-2019, 13:16
Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%
Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.You are possibly right about the higher levels of distortion at lower volume levels, but how often do you listen to LPs at -50dB? Most recordings are surely not made with such low levels for most of the time. It's only really in some "real world" recordings and classical music that one might expect to have such low levels. A lot of popular music has a restricted dynamic range, so distortion at low levels is probably not an issue. Additionally, much popular music has deliberately introduced distortion - so it probably masks any distortion which comes from the replay chain - then it becomes a question of "which flavour of distortion do you like?", rather than "can I hear that with minimal distortion?"
Using PCM encoding - as used on CDs - may give rise to distortion at low volume levels. However there are other forms of encoding which can/could reduce distortion due to digital encoding to very low levels, even at low very low volume levels. It's not just a question of digital versus analogue. There are/have been some very good anologue recordings, though doing the mixing and editing and other "tweaks" which many recording producers and musicians seem to want there days is surely very much simpler, easier and quicker using digital technology. Consumers seem to like this too, as it renders recorded music affordable to many.
Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%
Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.
Not really a real-world test either - but I take your point.
Marco I am at work doing a job. I cannot devote all my time satisfying your desires about what you think you need to know from me.
To be frank I find your constant assertions that I am patronising you to be absurd. And intensely annoying. How many times do I have to tell you I am not doing so???
I am taking a break to let you cool down again. Get a grip, bro.
Jeezuz... Being told to "Get a grip" is extremely patronising, when I don't consider there's anything for me to "get a grip" of. Plus, I don't need to "cool down" either, as I'm not angry; simply pointing out how you're coming across, which to be frank, *I* find intensely annoying. It doesn't matter telling me you're not doing it, if that's how it reads.
I don't like being told what to do, cool down and get a grip, etc. That isn't how you talk to people. It's not "constant assertions" - I'm simply responding to the words you type and the tone conveyed.
If you don't have time to express yourself properly because you're at work, that's fine, so save it for when you get home. I don't want to fall out with you, Justin, but neither can I ignore being addressed in a manner that I consider as unacceptable.
Marco.
paulf-2007
21-11-2019, 16:41
How you would here anything with that mutt barking non stop
Can't be 'digitally-only', as digital recording hadn't been invented back then. Might be AAD or ADD.
Yup, sure. What I meant really was a commercially produced CD, so yes AAD or ADD. My point still stands that if vinyl inherently exhibited the characteristics, as previously described, they would show up when recorded/ripped onto CD, and compared with the same music stored on a commercial CD.
And that simply didn't happen in the instance I mentioned.
Marco.
How you would here anything with that mutt barking non stop
Sorry, Paul, who's that addressed to?:scratch:
Marco.
Sorry, Paul, who's that addressed to?:scratch:
Marco.
It's a reference to the very start of the video; as Fremer opens his door a dog (or several dogs) starts barking quite loudly.
Ah, it just seemed like a somewhat random comment, as the discussion has moved on since then.
Marco.
Nope, nothing to do with dither and everything to do with the measurement level. All of CD's vanishingly low distortion figures come from a test level of 0dB and they are not wrong. However, drop that level to -30dB, say, and the figures become more equal. Drop it to -40 or -50dB and you can measure 12% distortion from a CD player (I know - I've done it!) whereas a good cartridge will be more like 1-3%
Obviously, there is more to it than this, such as dynamic range, which is superior on CD, but it just means that the claims of virtually zero distortion for CD were a little misleading at best.
Interesting, Adam. If nothing else it shows how measurements can be used to portray whatever suits your agenda (or context of your argument), and also mislead potential buyers who may be 'impressed' by the figures [and rather sensationalistic statements such as 'zero distortion'], but not properly understand what they mean.
Marco.
Interesting, Adam. If nothing else it shows how measurements can be used to portray whatever suits your agenda (or context of your argument), and also mislead potential buyers who may be 'impressed' by the figures [and rather sensationalistic statements such as 'zero distortion'], but not properly understand what they mean.
Marco.
In fairness Sony/Philips never claimed zero distortion. We're unlikely to ever get a zero distortion format. In any case, if you can't hear it then it's irrelevant anyway.
Iif you can't hear it then it's irrelevant anyway.
Yes, much like all this 'fatally flawed' vinyl;)
Marco.
I can get super rips of vinyl through my relatively modest system. In fact I'd say the rip is probably better much of the time.
That's not to say my vinyl is poor, as it's not. It's pretty good considering the funds. But even at a modest level and including a cleaner there is £1500 invested originally. Digital is lower by far but is probably as good, give or take.
Going up a level to expensive systems, then I guess vinyl might fare better and be slightly in front.
But, we do have to factor in the ritual and tactility of vinyl might be swinging it a bit.
I'm always amazed by how good both approaches can sound.
Analogue, as in vinyl replay, is beset by a myriad of problems: the performance of the TT required to rotate the LP at a constant, unwavering, speed without introducing any unwanted noise, either generated by the TT itself or allowing any external interference to be be added to what is 'read by the pickup; and the pickup/arm combination. Of the latter, the pickup being an electro-mechanical transducer will always have non-linear distortions and resonances present, as well as those caused by tracking and tracing distortion: the first a matter of deviation from true parallel tracking, the second due to the stylus profile being unable to replicate the action of the record cutter. All of these errors contribute to an overall distortion figure often much greater than the figure quoted above.
With digital, the mechanical problems are less of a problem, apart from clocking accuracy, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the DAC to reconstruct the original analogue signal. The choice of filter response is IMO very important. But the coding of an analogue signal to a stepped waveform and then decoding it back again, always amazes me that it can work as well as it does.
Both approaches are capable of producing a reasonably realistic facsimile of the original performance (whatever that may be), but there are other unquantifiable aspects to be considered. These are the convenience and software robustness of CD, vs. the tactile and user involvement with vinyl replay. I also believe that one has to spend quite a bit more on vinyl replay than on CD replay to achieve comparable results.
I'm quite happy to use both approaches - and both give me great listening pleasure.
AJSki2fly
22-11-2019, 05:59
I would agree to most of what you say both have there merits and both failings. I was a relatively early adopter of CD in 84/85 and by 86 that was all I was buying, but back then I felt something was missing in the sound quality, this lead me down the path of CDP holy grail search and in 88 I succumbed to a £1850 outlay on a Meridian 508, equivalent today would probably be about £8-10k outlay, so for most a huge commitment in the scheme things. Did this give me CD replay perfection, the simple answer is no. Good or well transcribed ones were good in some cases nearing vinyl sound, but bad or poorly transcribed, whatever the cause still sounded not very good.
So even though I had acquired over 600 CD’s and a pretty expensive system I stopped listening to it, yes the occasional CD went on maybe one a week, but always dissatisfaction returned, a feeling of hollowness and disappointment and that was a system the had cost me about £10k, probably today looking at similar equivalents new would be nearer £30-35k.
So for around 12 years it stay like that, I incorporated aspects of the hifi into a surround system to watch films, and that became my entertainment.
So what changed, about 5 years ago a friend sent me some new music on mp3, I was shocked it sounded awful, what was he on he was a music fan and audiophile with a very good vinyl based system. After discussion with him he did a direct copy and things improved and I could now listen to the new world music. So this led me into lots of ready and home trials listening to the same music digitally recorded at different sample rates and different compression, I even investigated the impacts of digital codecs discovering some are historically tied to equipment used in studios and radio stations. So my conclusion was that unfortunately the digital music medium is to be honest a mess, it has to some extent evolved like topsy, in other words there were/are too many variables across the industry. Yes there are industry standards for CDs, we all know that, but just look at all the codecs for converting to and from digital. So is it really surprising some CDs sound good and others not, or even digital files, to be honest no, not in my opinion now I think it’s pretty obvious.
So my music journey continued and having heard my friends vinyl system about 5 years ago, of around £8k when he purchased, I venture back into vinyl. Initially a 2nd hand Project TT from my friend , and then over the next 4 years I moved towards a more analogue focused system and yes I admit ended up spending a reasonable amount. I listen to the same music as I have for 40 years but now it just sounds right, more natural to the ear, more real is the only way I can put it into words. Yes I did keep the Meridian and I listened to good CDs back to back with the same on vinyl through my system but each time the vinyl one through. So why is this, well in my opinion and I’m sure there are many other reasons is that producing a record is more standardised than a digital file, with the advent of RIAA one compression/decompression circuit was agreed across the industry, unless I have misunderstood something. The other recording and mixing variables remain much that same as they have been, although with the advent of digital recording and mixing we may be introducing the same issue onto new vinyl as on CD, certainly and engineer can deliberately compress and alter the dynamics creating a modern wall of sound, yuk.
But IMHO for the music I listen to the vinyl experience give me the best experience to my ears, is it because it was that sound I grew up with and loved, maybe, maybe not, I didn’t listen to vinyl for 25 years so I would have thought my brain and ears would have lost any pre-programming in that time. So it’s mainly vinyl for me and occasional digital to find new stuff and if it’s good but on vinyl and hope it then doesn’t sound digitised because of the front end recording process.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
dave2010
22-11-2019, 07:45
But IMHO for the music I listen to the vinyl experience give me the best experience to my ears, is it because it was that sound I grew up with and loved, maybe, maybe not, I didn’t listen to vinyl for 25 years so I would have thought my brain and ears would have lost any pre-programming in that time. So it’s mainly vinyl for me and occasional digital to find new stuff and if it’s good but on vinyl and hope it then doesn’t sound digitised because of the front end recording process.
An interesting story.
I'm interested in the vinyl you listen to. Is it new - which is mostly digitally mastered, or older, which may have been created using tape and other analogue methods?
I'm guessing that some of the discs you like were actually digital recordings at some point in the recording chain. In that case your preferences are not just for digital vs analogue, but for something in the consumer replay chain which you prefer using vinyl or something in the vinyl disc production chain.
Am I right - or are all your preferred vinyl discs made from analogue sources, and edited using non digital methods?
Audio Al
22-11-2019, 09:38
I have a Meridian 508 and rate it highly :eyebrows: However as said lot's of times it's Vinyl all the way for me ,
Allways has been :D ( It was R2R but sadly don't currently have a propper high end R2R :reel:±±:reel: :( )
I would agree to most of what you say both have there merits and both failings. I was a relatively early adopter of CD in 84/85 and by 86 that was all I was buying, but back then I felt something was missing in the sound quality, this lead me down the path of CDP holy grail search and in 88 I succumbed to a £1850 outlay on a Meridian 508, equivalent today would probably be about £8-10k outlay, so for most a huge commitment in the scheme things. Did this give me CD replay perfection, the simple answer is no. Good or well transcribed ones were good in some cases nearing vinyl sound, but bad or poorly transcribed, whatever the cause still sounded not very good.
So even though I had acquired over 600 CD’s and a pretty expensive system I stopped listening to it, yes the occasional CD went on maybe one a week, but always dissatisfaction returned, a feeling of hollowness and disappointment and that was a system the had cost me about £10k, probably today looking at similar equivalents new would be nearer £30-35k.
So for around 12 years it stay like that, I incorporated aspects of the hifi into a surround system to watch films, and that became my entertainment.
So what changed, about 5 years ago a friend sent me some new music on mp3, I was shocked it sounded awful, what was he on he was a music fan and audiophile with a very good vinyl based system. After discussion with him he did a direct copy and things improved and I could now listen to the new world music. So this led me into lots of ready and home trials listening to the same music digitally recorded at different sample rates and different compression, I even investigated the impacts of digital codecs discovering some are historically tied to equipment used in studios and radio stations. So my conclusion was that unfortunately the digital music medium is to be honest a mess, it has to some extent evolved like topsy, in other words there were/are too many variables across the industry. Yes there are industry standards for CDs, we all know that, but just look at all the codecs for converting to and from digital. So is it really surprising some CDs sound good and others not, or even digital files, to be honest no, not in my opinion now I think it’s pretty obvious.
So my music journey continued and having heard my friends vinyl system about 5 years ago, of around £8k when he purchased, I venture back into vinyl. Initially a 2nd hand Project TT from my friend , and then over the next 4 years I moved towards a more analogue focused system and yes I admit ended up spending a reasonable amount. I listen to the same music as I have for 40 years but now it just sounds right, more natural to the ear, more real is the only way I can put it into words. Yes I did keep the Meridian and I listened to good CDs back to back with the same on vinyl through my system but each time the vinyl one through. So why is this, well in my opinion and I’m sure there are many other reasons is that producing a record is more standardised than a digital file, with the advent of RIAA one compression/decompression circuit was agreed across the industry, unless I have misunderstood something. The other recording and mixing variables remain much that same as they have been, although with the advent of digital recording and mixing we may be introducing the same issue onto new vinyl as on CD, certainly and engineer can deliberately compress and alter the dynamics creating a modern wall of sound, yuk.
But IMHO for the music I listen to the vinyl experience give me the best experience to my ears, is it because it was that sound I grew up with and loved, maybe, maybe not, I didn’t listen to vinyl for 25 years so I would have thought my brain and ears would have lost any pre-programming in that time. So it’s mainly vinyl for me and occasional digital to find new stuff and if it’s good but on vinyl and hope it then doesn’t sound digitised because of the front end recording process.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like our experiences with vinyl are similar Adrian?
I think it is easy to underestimate the effects of our early environment, imprinting in a period when our brains are susceptible to internalising 'norms'.
I still catch myself behaving in a way both taught and occurring around me when very young, and which is archaically unrelated to new social norms. (init?)
hornucopia
22-11-2019, 10:16
Can I throw in the apparent improvement some seem to have noticed in that putting CDs onto iTunes/HDD makes things sound better? Which would (if you accept the premise) indicate that it's the players that are changing the sound.
AJSki2fly
22-11-2019, 11:34
An interesting story.
I'm interested in the vinyl you listen to. Is it new - which is mostly digitally mastered, or older, which may have been created using tape and other analogue methods?
I'm guessing that some of the discs you like were actually digital recordings at some point in the recording chain. In that case your preferences are not just for digital vs analogue, but for something in the consumer replay chain which you prefer using vinyl or something in the vinyl disc production chain.
Am I right - or are all your preferred vinyl discs made from analogue sources, and edited using non digital methods?
I have now over 1200 LPs, about 200 were given to me by a couple of friends who no longer listened to vinyl or even had a TT, most were from the 60's, 70's and 80's. I have purchased around 630 for £4 or less in charity/2nd hand, 265 for £10 or less mainly from records shops of Discogs, the remaining 120 are mainly new purchases.
951 of them were released before 1983 (start of digital and CDs)
171 released in the 80's, how many were originally digitally recorded in the studio I have now idea, but a lot of Pink Floyd from the Wall onwards was anyway, as was Dire Straits.
23 released in the 90's, once again I have now idea which ones were digitally recorded in the studios.
100 from 2000 to date, about 25 of them are originals from 2000 to date so the other 75 are re-releases of earlier originals.
Some of the later originals I can actually tell they have been digitally mastered Rival Sons - Hollow Bones being one, to much compressions, loosing dynamics, interestingly one of my favourite albums St. Germain - Tourist would have definitely used digital recording and mixing during its production, but the dynamics and the reproduction of this album is outstanding IMO, similarly Slør by Eivør Pálsdóttir is a stunning record which was released in 2015 I would be very surprised if this was not recorded digitally.
I think that digital at 96khz and above used sympathetically by a skilled recording engineer and not playing around with the dynamic content can and obviously does produce very good recordings, that is not artificially boosting the bottom end frequencies, and if transferred to Vinyl, CD or digital files, CD level and above, as accurately as possible will produce very good results. The replay result will then depend upon the listener and the quality of the equipment used.
So as I was saying there is no clear cut hard and fast rule that analogue is better than digital, or digital is more accurate. However what is clear to me is that pure digital seems to loose some form of expressiveness and sense of realism when replayed, but analogue(vinyl) does not. In another thread which was extremely long with a host of arguments either way I highlighted that I had taken several favourite albums of mine and went to great lengths to find the same recordings from the same masters, on vinyl and digital, on CD and FLAC files. I then listened very carefully with a friend swapping on the fly to which I was blind to (did not know what was being played). I just made notes on each I listened to. We reviewed at the end and it was cleared I could discriminate between vinyl and CD every time, between CD and FLAC was about 60% successful, some albums being easier than others. I suspected a subtle re-mix being done from the master to CD, why I have no idea. In terms of what I found more enjoyable/engaging to listen to it was vinyl for me, although some digital recordings came very close.
Audio Al
22-11-2019, 12:21
Blimey Adrian :eek: you ARE seriously into this , Well done mate :yesbruv::clapclapclap:
paulf-2007
22-11-2019, 12:42
Sorry, Paul, who's that addressed to?:scratch:
Marco.nobody in particular. I watched the start of the video and the dog was barking, ok that's normal for some when you ring the door bell, but the dog was barking in the background for as long as I watched which wasn't for long.
paulf-2007
22-11-2019, 12:44
It's a reference to the very start of the video; as Fremer opens his door a dog (or several dogs) starts barking quite loudly.
Yes spot on
paulf-2007
22-11-2019, 12:45
Ah, it just seemed like a somewhat random comment, as the discussion has moved on since then.
Marco.
It's the first time I had seen the thread. I haven't lost the plot yet
Some of the digital recordings I have sound fantastic.....on Vinyl!
I asked Mick Fleetwood when I met him about Fleetwood Mac in the studio and he said everything is recorded digitally EXCEPT his drumming which was analogue and then mixed together but I didn't ask how.
nobody in particular. I watched the start of the video and the dog was barking, ok that's normal for some when you ring the door bell, but the dog was barking in the background for as long as I watched which wasn't for long.
Lol - shows you how we focus on different things... I never really noticed the dog barking!:D
Marco.
171 released in the 80's, how many were originally digitally recorded in the studio I have now idea, but a lot of Pink Floyd from the Wall onwards was anyway, as was Dire Straits.
.
Re Dire Straits only the last two albums were digital recordings, Love over Gold and all the previous albums are analogue recordings. Was The Wall really a digital recording? It would have been a very early one if so. If I had to bet I'd say it was analogue.
The Wall was not a digital recording
I think the original recording was on a 24-track analogue machine, and overdubbed onto a 32-track Mitsubishi digital recorder. ims
The first digital recording presented on vinyl I heard was Ry Cooder's 'Bop Till You Drop'. It's awful - the musicians are totally two-dimensional and pop in and out like the flags of an old-fashioned cash register. :doh:
Despite that, I do like the album - I just don't listen to it 'on-axis'. ;)
hifi_dave
22-11-2019, 16:34
Bop is thin and bright and on my LP copy, one channel is about 6dB down on the other.
The first digital recording presented on vinyl I heard was Ry Cooder's 'Bop Till You Drop'. It's awful - the musicians are totally two-dimensional and pop in and out like the flags of an old-fashioned cash register. :doh:
Despite that, I do like the album - I just don't listen to it 'on-axis'. ;)
Yes great album but terrible digital recording.
AJSki2fly
22-11-2019, 18:00
Blimey Adrian :eek: you ARE seriously into this , Well done mate :yesbruv::clapclapclap:
Well when you are recovering from some health issues you have lots of time to hunt down nicely priced vinyl and build a nice collection, plus I rather likely the touchy feely experience. :D
Wether digital or analogue is best isn't of any real importance what is important is which you prefer and why it is so important to some of you to prove that either, or sounds best is beyond me.
dave2010
22-11-2019, 22:49
Wether digital or analogue is best isn't of any real importance what is important is which you prefer and why it is so important to some of you to prove that either, or sounds best is beyond me.Best is subjective anyway, and there is no compulsion to have a preference. Some people will have, others not, and the preferences of different people may very well be different. So for some it's just not important at all.
Might be interesting though.
jandl100
23-11-2019, 05:44
Wether digital or analogue is best isn't of any real importance what is important is which you prefer and why it is so important to some of you to prove that either, or sounds best is beyond me.
Yes, exactly, just enjoy your music in the ways that please you. :thumbsup:
My cat Roley has a very strong preference for streaming - he can sit on my lap for hours undisturbed as I happily listen and control everything by remote.
Who's to say he's wrong?
https://i.imgur.com/6T1R821.jpg
Pigmy Pony
23-11-2019, 07:06
Cute little feller - looks like a Qobuz cat to me
paulf-2007
25-11-2019, 15:18
Re Dire Straits only the last two albums were digital recordings, Love over Gold and all the previous albums are analogue recordings. Was The Wall really a digital recording? It would have been a very early one if so. If I had to bet I'd say it was analogue.if you can get dire straits first album on half speed mastered it's magic.
I've got it on original UK pressing and I've got the re-mastered CD. Can't fault either and it was only a budget recording to begin with. Or maybe that's why it sounds good?
With that particular album, I find the vinyl (just the original UK pressing) better than the CD. It's actually a good example that ably highlights the differences between all digital and all analogue recordings, and probably why many, if they didn't own the best T/T set-up at the time, preferred the 'all-shiny new' CD!;)
Marco.
I think Dire Straits should do a compilation of just the intros to their best known tracks - they seem to specialise in particularly protracted intro sections but by the time the track starts proper I’ve lost interest.
I don't disagree. It's 'ok' music, very well produced, for those stuck in the past, 'of a certain age'... Rather like Steely Dan;)
Marco.
I bet the pair of you listen to some right old shite on the quiet....
Audio Al
28-11-2019, 12:13
I don't disagree. It's 'ok' music, very well produced, for those stuck in the past, 'of a certain age'... Rather like Steely Dan;)
Marco.
You talking about me :punch:
I bet the pair of you listen to some right old shite on the quiet....
I rarely listen particularly ‘quiet’.
———-
I was only half joking about the Dire Straits intro album. I actually quite like some of their intro sections - but I really have lost interest by the time the song proper gets going
Reminds me - I was listening to the Eagles the other night (no Lebowski quotes please!) - the album 'One Of These Nights', and although I've owned it for 30 odd years and played it a million times I was struck by just how good it is. Not just the production, but the lyrics, the song structures, and the musicianship. In pretty much every respect it is so much more accomplished than the utter shit that passes for music these days that there really can be no comparison.
So I'll happily stay stuck in the past and just thank god that there was so much music made back then when people actually understood what music is.
paulf-2007
28-11-2019, 12:36
I don't disagree. It's 'ok' music, very well produced, for those stuck in the past, 'of a certain age'... Rather like Steely Dan;)
Marco.i wouldn't consider myself " stuck " in the last as I like lots of more up to date stuff as well as the old stuff. As for steely Dan, they wrote some good music but I used to know a pub band that played their stuff way better. I always think there sound is a bit off, guitar tones are awful. I suppose of their time.
paulf-2007
28-11-2019, 12:37
I bet the pair of you listen to some right old shite on the quiet....
What's considered shite is subjective
AJSki2fly
28-11-2019, 12:40
I don't disagree. It's 'ok' music, very well produced, for those stuck in the past, 'of a certain age'... Rather like Steely Dan;)
Marco.
Well that's pigeon holed me then, an ageing hippy that listens to lots of prog rock, 60s-80s Jazz and classical for a change now and then. By the way Steely Dan are rather good! :eyebrows::D
nowt dire about straits :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
28-11-2019, 13:28
I don't disagree. It's 'ok' music, very well produced, for those stuck in the past, 'of a certain age'... Rather like Steely Dan;)
Marco.
Have to disagree chief :D re: Steely Dan and stuck in the past.
Some music / artists have a timeless quality where in my case, I never tire of their music as such. (Doesn't mean I like every single track mind you)
Too many to mention but Marley, Burning Spear, Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield etc come to mind. 'swhat makes them legends......timeless......
Love a bit of Steely D :)
Classical music - they've all been brown bread for years but where would film soundtracks be without it? Stuck in the present? Imagine if films had no choice but to use current music for the soundtracks? The living would envy the dead.
RobbieGong
28-11-2019, 13:56
Classical music - they've all been brown bread for years but where would film soundtracks be without it? Stuck in the present? Imagine if films had no choice but to use current music for the soundtracks? The living would envy the dead.
:lol:
Hahahaha... Thought that would wind you lot up!:lol::D
I'll respond to some of the replies later.
Marco.
walpurgis
28-11-2019, 14:09
Reminds me - I was listening to the Eagles the other night (no Lebowski quotes please!) - the album 'One Of These Nights', and although I've owned it for 30 odd years and played it a million times I was struck by just how good it is. Not just the production, but the lyrics, the song structures, and the musicianship. In pretty much every respect it is so much more accomplished than the utter shit that passes for music these days that there really can be no comparison.
Funny that. The Eagles are a great band from just about any point of view. Unfortunately, they really don't do anything for me and I can't actually say why.
RobbieGong
28-11-2019, 14:10
Funny that. The Eagles are a great band from just about any point of view. Unfortunately, they really don't do anything for me and I can't actually say why.
Same here
walpurgis
28-11-2019, 14:11
I bet the pair of you listen to some right old shite on the quiet....
:lolsign:
RobbieGong
28-11-2019, 14:24
Reminds me - I was listening to the Eagles the other night (no Lebowski quotes please!) - the album 'One Of These Nights', and although I've owned it for 30 odd years and played it a million times I was struck by just how good it is. Not just the production, but the lyrics, the song structures, and the musicianship. In pretty much every respect it is so much more accomplished than the utter shit that passes for music these days that there really can be no comparison.
So I'll happily stay stuck in the past and just thank god that there was so much music made back then when people actually understood what music is.
+1 with bells on :D
walpurgis
28-11-2019, 14:33
What's considered shite is subjective
Well I gather The Pussycat Dolls are getting back together. :)
Reminds me - I was listening to the Eagles the other night (no Lebowski quotes please!) - the album 'One Of These Nights', and although I've owned it for 30 odd years and played it a million times I was struck by just how good it is. Not just the production, but the lyrics, the song structures, and the musicianship. In pretty much every respect it is so much more accomplished than the utter shit that passes for music these days that there really can be no comparison.
So I'll happily stay stuck in the past and just thank god that there was so much music made back then when people actually understood what music is.To think they originally wanted to be a rock band and nearly gave up before a producer suggested a more laid back style, the rest is history
Pigmy Pony
28-11-2019, 21:37
I do feel sorry for future generations - the current crop of over-produced, auto-tuned to death pap will one day be the "music of the past" and therefore superior to what ever will then be "current" :(
Sort of agree about The Eagles' music - I do like their songs, but more for passive listening. Ideal motorway music perhaps, but I do prefer stuff that moves up and down the gears a bit, and moves away from the norm here and there, to keep my attention :)
I have a few Eagles's recordings (on both vinyl and CD) - and I enjoy them. They are, to me, the perfect example of AOR. :sofa:
I also have most of Steely Dan's output (on vinyl), I don't know why, because I'm not sure if I like them and only play them sporadically. :scratch:
I've the eagles going away concert on dvd, or did.. Not seen it lately.
It was very good
Beobloke
28-11-2019, 23:11
Funny, I have a very wide musical taste and have albums from Bert Kaempfert to Myrkur and from Enya to Slipknot, calling at stuff like Vivaldi, Pink Floyd, Jean Michel Jarre, Dan Fogelberg, Kacey Musgraves, James Last, Runrig and Metallica on the way.
But The Eagles are my absolute favourite band of all.
Beobloke
29-11-2019, 18:56
I'll respond to some of the replies later.
Marco.
Well?!
jandl100
29-11-2019, 19:22
Classical music - they've all been brown bread for years ....
Well, err, no.
There's lots of contemporary "classical" music.
I was listening today to the violin concerto and 2nd symphony by Latvian composer Peteris Vasks; he's still alive and composing and his music is superb. Very different to Bach, Beethoven and Vivaldi, though. ;)
https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/cAWXhHJvnDo5na0PXvqf5g--~C/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2ZpPWZpdDtoPTE4MDtxPTgwO3c9MTI5/https://s.yimg.com/zb/imgv1/e71204eb-0a76-3876-8609-7d00bd6d7a46/t_500x300
Agreed - the Baltic State countries are producing some interesting composers. Some of their work is 'challenging', but interesting.
Pigmy Pony
29-11-2019, 20:47
Funny, I have a very wide musical taste and have albums from Bert Kaempfert to Myrkur and from Enya to Slipknot, calling at stuff like Vivaldi, Pink Floyd, Jean Michel Jarre, Dan Fogelberg, Kacey Musgraves, James Last, Runrig and Metallica on the way.
But The Eagles are my absolute favourite band of all.
And my slippers are my absolute favourite shoes of all time :D Sorry, that was a bit mean - I only really know the Eagles' singles, which I do like when they come on the radio. I should really try their albums. I do have "Long Road out of Eden" and "Hotel California" on CD, neither of which I've played, so I'll shut up now until I've given them a listen.
Spectral Morn
29-11-2019, 21:02
I have a few Eagles's recordings (on both vinyl and CD) - and I enjoy them. They are, to me, the perfect example of AOR. :sofa:
I also have most of Steely Dan's output (on vinyl), I don't know why, because I'm not sure if I like them and only play them sporadically. :scratch:
The Eagles aren't AOR Barry, country rock with a hint of west coast vibe. Steely Dan are also west coast rock, or yacht rock as some call it. AOR is bands like Journey, though they started as more of a prog rock band.
The Eagles aren't AOR Barry, country rock with a hint of west coast vibe. Steely Dan are also west coast rock, or yacht rock as some call it. AOR is bands like Journey, though they started as more of a prog rock band.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Album-oriented_rock
Country Rock I'd have said
Well?!
Lol - sorry, meant to, but got caught up with other things! It was mainly to say that there is SHED LOADS of great new music out there, if you know where to look, aren't stuck in a rut, and willing to get off of your backside to find it!:ner:
I mean, when was the last time some of you Dan fans were at a live music gig, big or small, or ventured into an independent record store in your own town to check out what's happening in the local music scene, or even used the likes of Spotify to FIND some new music that might appeal to your tastes?
If the honest answer to that is either never, or a LONG time ago, then how on earth are you qualified to judge the standards of the music being produced now, compared with that from the 'golden oldies' you so cherish and rave about, through rose-tinted specs...??:doh:;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
29-11-2019, 21:57
Country Rock I'd have said
Music genres are a bit subjective at times but the Eagles fall into the country west coast vibe and not the AOR one. AOR is heavier, with lots of keyboards, harmonies and catchy tunes, ballads being a big part. Journey are a classic example of AOR. Now what Barry points at is different, album orientated rock, which the Eagles could fall under, but AOR as known these days and since the 80s means something else within rock/metal music circles.
There are though sub genres within AOR, such as pomp rock, techno rock, and some west coast bands, but not all. Like all things open to debate.
RobbieGong
29-11-2019, 21:58
Lol - sorry, meant to, but got caught up with other things! It was mainly to say that there is SHED LOADS of great new music out there, if you know where to look, aren't stuck in a rut, and willing to get off of your backside to find it!:ner:
I mean, when was the last time some of you Dan fans were at a love music gig, big or small, or ventured into an independent record store in your own town to check out what's happening in the local music scene, or even used the likes of Spotify to FIND some new music that might appeal to your tastes?
If the honest answer to that is either never, or a LONG time ago, then how on earth are you qualified to judge the standards of the music being produced now, compared with that from the 'golden oldies' you so cherish and rave about, through rose-tinted specs...??:doh:;)
Marco.
Chief, Yep been to a few 'newer artist' gigs - Chronixx, Damian Marley, Tarrus Riley to mention some. New albums include Jah 9, Chronixx, Romain Virgo.... :D Like em a lot but truth be known I cant leave the old crew alone, albums I've spun for decades is the staple, just is - love em love em love em :)
AJSki2fly
29-11-2019, 21:58
Lol - sorry, meant to, but got caught up with other things! It was mainly to say that there is SHED LOADS of great new music out there, if you know where to look, aren't stuck in a rut, and willing to get off of your backside to find it!:ner:
I mean, when was the last time some of you Dan fans were at a live music gig, big or small, or ventured into an independent record store in your own town to check out what's happening in the local music scene, or even used the likes of Spotify to FIND some new music that might appeal to your tastes?
If the honest answer to that is either never, or a LONG time ago, then how on earth are you qualified to judge the standards of the music being produced now, compared with that from the 'golden oldies' you so cherish and rave about, through rose-tinted specs...??:doh:;)
Marco.
Ok MR smarty pants try this
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191129/b65eaafabb3b122446ce60dcd2c5bbf0.jpg
Rival Sons - Feral Roots
Chief, Yep been to a few 'newer artist' gigs - Chronixx, Damian Marley, Tarrus Riley to mention some. New albums include Jah 9, Chronixx, Romain Virgo.... :D Like em a lot but truth be known I cant leave the old crew alone, albums I've spun for decades is the staple, just is - love em love em love em :)
Good for you, dude, and knowing you I'd expect nothing less! My comments were aimed at the Dan/Eagles/Mac fans who rarely if ever listen to any new music or go to gigs, and simply wallow in the 'joys' of their [rather limiting] CD or vinyl collection;)
You often meet them at hi-fi shows, either as demonstrators or punters - in fact music sellers, such as Diverse Vinyl, who sell LPs and CDs at such events, deliberately tailor their stock to satisfy the demands of said, stuck-in-a-rut dinosaurs, and buyers solely of stuff that's well-produced and 'sounds good' - I know because I've spoken to Paul, the owner, and we often have a giggle about it!:eyebrows:
Marco.
You often meet them at hi-fi shows, either as demonstrators or punters - in fact music sellers, such as Diverse Vinyl, who sell LPs and CDs at such events, deliberately tailor their stock to satisfy the demands of said, stuck-in-a-rut dinosaurs, and buyers solely of stuff that's well-produced and 'sounds good' - I know because I've spoken to Paul, the owner, and we often have a giggle about it!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Yes - they're the sort who buy records to show off their gear, rather than having good gear to listen their records at their best. "Cart before the horse"?
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