View Full Version : The end of May.
Pigmy Pony
31-05-2019, 22:33
No that was my auntie Ingrid. A right mucky bugger in her youth according to my uncle Cecil.
It goes without saying that inequality and unfairness isn't right but we can oppose it all day long and that won't change anything as the people responsible don't give a shiney shite what the little guys think.
Perhaps the only way is to get involved in politics and try to change things from within. Have you considered becoming a Councillor or stand representation of the party of your choice? I reckon you could be quite effective - even if you can't changes the view of your opponents, you can at least wear them down until they give up :D
Being semi retired, you may be in a better position than some to put in the hours and legwork, although your garden may turn to shit. Just borrow a couple of sheep (not the one you borrowed for that party, she was a right diva) and at least your lawn will be ok.
Haha - love it!:D
Maybe in my younger days, when I could be arsed devoting time and energy to such matters, I'd have considered it, but not now. These days, all I want is a quiet, fun, stress-free life, doing the things I like doing, with others who enjoy doing it with me. And why not? I've earned it!
However, that won't stop me from raging against the unjustness and inequality of 'the system', or divorcing myself, as much as possible (through deliberate lifestyle choices and hard-earned financial successes), from the worst of its insidious effects!!
Marco.
P.S The sheep you 'borrowed' last time, came back unable to 'baa', so you must've rammed it in too hard. A subsequent claim for compensation, therefore, will be issued against you in due course, as playing the game of 'let's make Bessie baa', by 'raiding' her back passage, has now been rendered as impossible.
Well, it is literally now the last of May. Hello June!
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/640x360/p01gmgl3.jpg
I never got the whole crusade against inequality and unfairness.
If everyone got exactly the same start in life and exactly the same, even handed treatment how bad are the people who still fail despite that going to feel?
Well, at least they'll be 'failures', despite having been given every chance to succeed, and so probably only have themselves to blame, not the system!
All I'd want is a much more even spread of wealth and opportunities, and in the UK, to significantly reduce the division between the grossly rich and abjectly poor - and that starts by not giving all the perks to the fat cats!
And some things that are pretty important can't really be fixed
Such as? And "important" to whom?
As I've said before, I'd force all multi-millionaires and billionaires in the UK to forfeit a percentage of their wealth or salary, which would then be given *directly* to the most needy of our citizens, in order to help them lead a life worth living, rather than merely a pitiful, and often painful day-to-day 'existence', where the temptation for suicide is forever present, as the constant struggle for survival is simply too much.
We have to end the injustice that exists where some past-it, pee-soaked, corpulent, sweet sherry-stained waste of taxpayers money, can park his ample posterior in the House of Lords, doing next to hee-haw, yet get paid handsomely for it, while only minutes away someone else is sleeping rough in a cardboard box.
*That* is fundamentally unfair, unjust, and completely unnecessary in a primarily rich country, such as the UK, and simply showcases the failings of the class system at its worst. And something needs done about it.
Marco.
Pitt the glint in his father's eye
What's your view, Granty, of the 'old boys network' in the House of Lords? Well, I guess it's 'quintessentially English'...! ;)
Marco.
Such as? And "important" to whom?
.
I was taking the piss - because it seems to be impossible to have any sort of serious discussion about such things. Complex problems do not have simple solutions. Sometimes they don't have any solution at all. Tying to implement a simple solution to a complex problem can actually makes the problem worse, not better. Even telling people that there is a simple solution can have ramifications that are truly terrible if they actually start to believe you.
if you are really serious about changing the world for the better your analysis of the problem needs to be far more sophisticated. Your solutions need to be far more sophisticated. You can't change 'the system' because the system is dictated by human nature. You can game the system to produce the outcomes you desire. But that isn't easy or straightforward to accomplish. Firstly your analysis of the system needs to be detailed and accurate. Next you have to define your goals in detail. Then you have to identify the weak spots in the system. Then you have to formulate strategies to exploit those weak spots in order to achieve those goals.
But that all sounds like a lot of work doesn't it? Far easier to just rail against the supposed 'bad guys' as though life was just another episode of 'The A Team'.
Pigmy Pony
01-06-2019, 06:52
I was taking the piss - because it seems to be impossible to have any sort of serious discussion about such things. Complex problems do not have simple solutions. Sometimes they don't have any solution at all. Tying to implement a simple solution to a complex problem can actually makes the problem worse, not better. Even telling people that there is a simple solution can have ramifications that are truly terrible if they actually start to believe you.
if you are really serious about changing the world for the better your analysis of the problem needs to be far more sophisticated. Your solutions need to be far more sophisticated. You can't change 'the system' because the system is dictated by human nature. You can game the system to produce the outcomes you desire. But that isn't easy or straightforward to accomplish. Firstly your analysis of the system needs to be detailed and accurate. Next you have to define your goals in detail. Then you have to identify the weak spots in the system. Then you have to formulate strategies to exploit those weak spots in order to achieve those goals.
But that all sounds like a lot of work doesn't it? Far easier to just rail against the supposed 'bad guys' as though life was just another episode of 'The A Team'.
Bloody hell, I only wanted a requisition form for some post-it notes. Next time I'll just go to the corner shop :(
I was taking the piss - because it seems to be impossible to have any sort of serious discussion about such things. Complex problems do not have simple solutions. Sometimes they don't have any solution at all. Tying to implement a simple solution to a complex problem can actually makes the problem worse, not better. Even telling people that there is a simple solution can have ramifications that are truly terrible if they actually start to believe you.
if you are really serious about changing the world for the better your analysis of the problem needs to be far more sophisticated. Your solutions need to be far more sophisticated. You can't change 'the system' because the system is dictated by human nature. You can game the system to produce the outcomes you desire. But that isn't easy or straightforward to accomplish. Firstly your analysis of the system needs to be detailed and accurate. Next you have to define your goals in detail. Then you have to identify the weak spots in the system. Then you have to formulate strategies to exploit those weak spots in order to achieve those goals.
But that all sounds like a lot of work doesn't it? Far easier to just rail against the supposed 'bad guys' as though life was just another episode of 'The A Team'.
Mmm... All very amusing, but getting the basics right and realigning the 'entitlement landscape' a little, would do for starters, and wouldn't be too taxing (no pun intended;)) to achieve!
Marco.
What's your view, Granty, of the 'old boys network' in the House of Lords? Well, I guess it's 'quintessentially English'...! ;)
Marco. I see you quite like that phrase quintessentially English now Marco ;)
Love it, mate - always have done!:lol:
Marco.
Mmm... All very amusing, but getting the basics right and realigning the 'entitlement landscape' a little, would do for starters, and wouldn't be too taxing (no pun intended;)) to achieve!
Marco.
You'd think so wouldn't you? But that's exactly what I'm saying, what appears to be a simple solution ('Let's just take money off the rich and give it to the poor') isn't once you get down to the details. It turns out to be neither simple, nor a solution. As Tony Soprano discovers, everything you do affects every facet of everything else. If you want to avoid unintended consequences your plan has to be far more sophisticated than that.
What's your view, Granty, of the 'old boys network' in the House of Lords? Well, I guess it's 'quintessentially English'...! ;)
Marco.
In the house of Lords, the mean average age was 69; the median average age was 70; and the modal average age was 74. This is unchanged from 11 March 2016. Most Members in each party or group, except the Bishops, fell into the 70–79 age band. 40 Members were aged under 50 and 13 Members were aged 90 or over.
Members are appointed by the Queen on the advice of the prime minister. Some non-party-political members are recommended by an independent body, the House of Lords Appointments Commission.
So, yes its a house full of goodies and cash for the already over privilaged, or Party political friends. After saying that, I much prefer it to the Commons, which is just a disgrace quite frankly.
Bring on the revolution.
You'd think so wouldn't you? But that's exactly what I'm saying, what appears to be a simple solution ('Let's just take money off the rich and give it to the poor') isn't once you get down to the details. It turns out to be neither simple, nor a solution. As Tony Soprano discovers, everything you do affects every facet of everything else. If you want to avoid unintended consequences your plan has to be far more sophisticated than that.
You'd need to stop them leaving with all their money to a friendlier shore, so some kind of wall might be of use.:eyebrows:
and guns, Lots of guns
In an equal world there s always some that will end up more equal than others
You'd need to stop them leaving with all their money to a friendlier shore, so some kind of wall might be of use.:eyebrows:
and guns, Lots of guns
Walls and guns. We can call it the 'Israeli Strategy'.
You'd think so wouldn't you? But that's exactly what I'm saying, what appears to be a simple solution ('Let's just take money off the rich and give it to the poor') isn't once you get down to the details. It turns out to be neither simple, nor a solution. As Tony Soprano discovers, everything you do affects every facet of everything else. If you want to avoid unintended consequences your plan has to be far more sophisticated than that.
Lol - do you think I don't know that? As they say, where there's a will, there's a way, but in the first place there has to exist a WILL... Anyway, it's pointless having this discussion with you on a forum, as all that's ever achieved is a fruitless circular argument, so we'll save it for next time we're in the pub;)
In the meantime, we (Del and I) will continue doing our small bit to make a difference.
There's a homeless chap who sits outside Wrexham Cathedral, where we occasionally go to mass on a Sunday evening (normally we attend another church, in the morning somewhere else), and to whom we always give some money. He's not on drugs, or at least hasn't been any time we've seen him, as he's always coherent and unfailingly polite, using the money we give him to get himself some food from McDonalds.
However, this time, as we were a little early for mass, we stopped and chatted to him for a while, gave him some money as usual, but this time asked him what he'd really like, such as perhaps a duvet, to keep warm? He said no, as he already had one, but mentioned that he needed some new shoes, as his had holes in, so we agreed to get him some.
Del asked him his size, and the next day, during her lunch break, went into town and bought him some new trainers, and arranged to meet him with them outside of McDonalds. When she arrived with the bag in her hand, and he took the box of trainers out, the look of sheer joy on his face was really quite something...
Here was someone who didn't want to use whatever money he had to get shit-faced on booze or drugs; he simply wanted to keep his feet warm and dry, and survive as best he could, and we were only too glad to help and make his daily existence just that bit more bearable.
We've no idea how he got himself into that position, but it would be rather ignorant to assume that he was simply a 'waster'. His behaviour certainly doesn't suggest it.
Now wouldn't the world be a much better place if everyone learned to 'spread a bit of love' like that, instead of being consumed by greed, and simply looking after No1?
Marco.
In the house of Lords, the mean average age was 69; the median average age was 70; and the modal average age was 74. This is unchanged from 11 March 2016. Most Members in each party or group, except the Bishops, fell into the 70–79 age band. 40 Members were aged under 50 and 13 Members were aged 90 or over.
Members are appointed by the Queen on the advice of the prime minister. Some non-party-political members are recommended by an independent body, the House of Lords Appointments Commission.
So, yes its a house full of goodies and cash for the already over privilaged, or Party political friends. After saying that, I much prefer it to the Commons, which is just a disgrace quite frankly.
Bring on the revolution.
Amen, brother...
House of Lords/House of Commons - all grossly outdated, vulgar and self-serving quintessentially English(;)) ruling institutions, populated in the main by free-loading chinless wonders, and which need dismantling by people power.
Marco.
Now wouldn't the world be a much better place if everyone learned to 'spread a bit of love' like that, instead of being consumed by greed, and simply looking after No1?
Marco.
But who are these people who are consumed by greed and only looking after number one? That wealthy bloke up the road with the Ferraris and the mansion probably gives more money to charity in a year than I make in ten. Of course he doesn't give away so much that he'll lose the mansion and the cars. But that's not exactly the same as being 'all consumed by greed'.
Okay so the law of averages says there must be at least some very wealthy people who give nothing away and will laugh at a beggar whilst stepping over him. But a handful at best. The idea of 'The Rich' as being greedy, grasping evil people is just a fairy story invented to further an agenda. Added to which a lot of the people who propagate the story seem to be rich themselves, although they tend to describe themselves as 'comfortably off.' I mean when Robin Hood gets going they see themselves as being part of his merry men, when in actual fact they will be his targets.
But who are these people who are consumed by greed and only looking after number one?
Unless you're blind mate, look all around you........And at folks in suits or wealthy footballers mocking homeless people on the street, or worse (as has been seen) pissing on them, while they're asleep or setting them on fire. Such evil is all around us, and an inhuman greed for power and wealth is at the very heart of it.
I'd love to see the stats, for example, on how much money millionaire investment bankers donate to charity....
Anyway, as I said, it's really pointless having this discussion with you, so we'll leave it there:)
Marco.
Most revolutions end up with lots of people dead and a different, probably worse bunch of bastards in charge (cf Russia, France) or with fewer people dead and a different bunch of toffs in charge (Glorious Revolution, US Revolution). So maybe just having a good old 'ain't it awful' whinge on an internet forum is the least bad option.
Most revolutions end up with lots of people dead and a different, probably worse bunch of bastards in charge (cf Russia, France) or with fewer people dead and a different bunch of toffs in charge (Glorious Revolution, US Revolution). So maybe just having a good old 'ain't it awful' whinge on an internet forum is the least bad option.
Im happy to do the needful if it gains me the respect and cash i so desperately deserve :D
'You say you want a revoluuutioon
Weeeell, you know
I just can't be sodding arsed
You tell me that it's evoluuutiooon
Weeelll, you know
I'll just have a kip instead'.
J Lennon, with apols.
Im happy to do the needful if it gains me the respect and cash i so desperately deserve :D
Yeah, but you were always a materialistic tart, who for a fiver and a five-finger shuffle, would sell their soul to the devil!:eyebrows:
Marco.
'You say you want a revoluuutioon
Weeeell, you know
I just can't be sodding arsed
You tell me that it's evoluuutiooon
Weeelll, you know
I'll just have a kip instead'.
J Lennon, with apols.
Ha - if you EVER had any 'get up and go', Joe, it's long since got up and gone...
Embrace your new title, and continue wearing it with pride!!:D
Marco.
Ha - if you EVER had any 'get up and go', Joe, it's long since got up and gone...
Embrace your new title, and continue wearing it with pride!!:D
Marco.
I've just been for a six-mile hike, as it happens. But it's bit rich to accuse me of apathy when you've just said you prefer to stay in a contented bubble rather than actually do anything to correct society's wrongs.
Well, you frequently display an apathetic attitude whenever these discussions come up, and indeed others on similar subjects, posting your associated and rather dismissive little 'ditties', so if you like behaving that way, then wear your badge with pride, Captain Apathy:more::eyebrows:
If anyone wants to join me in a revolution against the establishment, I'll gladly lead them, but in the meantime I'm happy to cocoon myself from the worst aspects of living in today's world:ner::D
Right, I'm off to prepare the cheeseboard and selection of cocktails and vino for this evening's pre-Champions League Final match munchies! Laters:cheers:
Marco [time to retreat now into my bubble].
just had my cheeseboard.. a bit of mousetrap on a dry oatcake:ner:
Lol - then mate, you should come down here! I'll post a pic up of ours later. Got my dad and some friends coming over to watch the footy!:cool:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
02-06-2019, 10:29
Well, you frequently display an apathetic attitude whenever these discussions come up, and indeed others on similar subjects, posting your associated and rather dismissive little 'ditties', so if you like behaving that way, then wear your badge with pride, Captain Apathy:more::eyebrows:
If anyone wants to join me in a revolution against the establishment, I'll gladly lead them, but in the meantime I'm happy to cocoon myself from the worst aspects of living in today's world:ner::D
Right, I'm off to prepare the cheeseboard and selection of cocktails and vino for this evening's pre-Champions League Final match munchies! Laters:cheers:
Marco [time to retreat now into my bubble].
I didn't realise these badges were awarded. Where's my badge? I WANT A BADGE :eek:
I didn't realise these badges were awarded. Where's my badge? I WANT A BADGE :eek:
Injustice and unfairness in action!
I didn't realise these badges were awarded. Where's my badge? I WANT A BADGE :eek:
What would you like your badge to say, sweety, other than 'Sex God' or 'Connoisseur of Turds'?:)
Marco.
I didn't realise these badges were awarded. Where's my badge? I WANT A BADGE :eek:
It's not so much an 'award' as Marco being a twat.
Ok, my new badge then is Captain Twatty!:lol:
Marco.
It's not so much an 'award' as Marco being a twat.
+1
I think it was uncalled for ... if they can be removed by an 'ordinary' member then fine but otherwise quite honestly a bit humiliating.
Are you having a sense of humour bypass tonight, Mike?:doh:
If Joe would like me to remove his 'badge', then all he has to do is say so!
Marco.
Are you having a sense of humour bypass tonight, Mike?:doh:
If Joe would like me to remove his 'badge', then all he has to do is say so!
Marco.
Not really any need to be rude about it Marco - not everyone appreciates what you regard as 'humour'.
No one should have to 'ask' for something to be removed that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Not really any need to be rude about it Marco - not everyone appreciates what you regard as 'humour'.
So ignore it then. The humour wasn't directed at you Mike, so there was nothing for you to 'appreciate', nor was there any need for you to comment, which I found rude.
No one should have to 'ask' for something to be removed that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
In your humble opinion. As I said, it was a joke. Next time, if it's got nothing to do with you, and you've got nothing positive to say, then say nothing.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
02-06-2019, 20:26
Yeah, I don't care about any of that, I just want a badge. On reflection, I sort of like 'Captain Cackbum' or 'Bog Botherer', but really anything will do. As with most things, I really don't care :)
Badges aren't all they're cracked up to be with some it would seem. But I am sure Marco will be happy to bestow you something suitable Steve!
Yeah, I don't care about any of that, I just want a badge. On reflection, I sort of like 'Captain Cackbum' or 'Bog Botherer', but really anything will do. As with most things, I really don't care :)
Arise Captain Cackburn!:D
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
02-06-2019, 21:43
Cheers Marco! Can I go now, I really need the toilet
Lol... Press out a nice firm one for me!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Cheers Marco! Can I go now, I really need the toilet
Only if you have a ruler handy!
Just don't wipe your arse with the ruler!:eek:
Marco.
Minstrel SE
03-06-2019, 07:32
I think that a change in thinking is required to get money flowing around the system in a fairer way. Money flowing and people feeling better treated would be a boost to the economy.
There should be a national living allowance which could perhaps be paid for by higher taxes in certain areas. So you pay everyone a set amount and then everything above that is taxed on a proportional scale.
We would need to tackle the closed loops of privileged behaviour. Landowners would be taxed heavily for resting on on all that value. Landlords need to be taxed much more as many of them are plain greedy and take advantage. They take pure advantage so take the money back off them and filter it around
I do want to see upper earnings limits which are then taxed very heavily. I want to see the wealthy and corporations pay their fair share of taxes which they are actually very scared of.
The important things are living in a decent society where everyone feels included to a fair degree. Its not really about owning everything but the powers that be push that upon us and it breeds resentment. Its rip off britain and its broken britain...it needs repairing with a complete rethink. Capitalism is an experiment which lasted around 100 years before it became obvious that it was just benefitting the privileged few...it then naturally started to self destruct as it was flawed and could expand no more
We are essentially spiritual beings and I want to see less anger from the disenfranchised. If they are told that money rules their world they will act up because they dont see opportunities to get some of it. We are all in this together and thats the basis of any government policies.
At the moment the rich get richer and put the gates up. The money doesnt really trickle down and thats the crux of it. you cant have the levels of disparity we now see
I think it could all be paid for with a proper cycle of taxes and spending on what really matters
I do want to see upper earnings limits which are then taxed very heavily. I want to see the wealthy and corporations pay their fair share of taxes which thay are actually very scared of.
At the moment the rich get richer and put the gates up. The money doesnt really trickle down and thats the crux of it. you cant have the levels of disparity we now see
I think it could all be paid for with a proper cycle of taxes and spending on what really matters
By jove, I think he's got it:thumbsup:
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-06-2019, 08:08
I think you have hit the nail spot on with that post Martin.
I think that a change in thinking is required to get money flowing around the system in a fairer way. Money flowing and people feeling better treated would be a boost to the economy.
There should be a national living allowance which could perhaps be paid for by higher taxes in certain areas. So you pay everyone a set amount and then everything above that is taxed on a proportional scale.
We would need to tackle the closed loops of privileged behaviour. Landowners would be taxed heavily for resting on on all that value. Landlords need to be taxed much more as many of them are plain greedy and take advantage. They take pure advantage so take the money back off them and filter it around
I do want to see upper earnings limits which are then taxed very heavily. I want to see the wealthy and corporations pay their fair share of taxes which they are actually very scared of.
The important things are living in a decent society where everyone feels included to a fair degree. Its not really about owning everything but the powers that be push that upon us and it breeds resentment. Its rip off britain and its broken britain...it needs repairing with a complete rethink. Capitalism is an experiment which lasted around 100 years before it became obvious that it was just benefitting the privileged few...it then naturally started to self destruct as it was flawed and could expand no more
We are essentially spiritual beings and I want to see less anger from the disenfranchised. If they are told that money rules their world they will act up because they dont see opportunities to get some of it. We are all in this together and thats the basis of any government policies.
At the moment the rich get richer and put the gates up. The money doesnt really trickle down and thats the crux of it. you cant have the levels of disparity we now see
I think it could all be paid for with a proper cycle of taxes and spending on what really matters
Well, I've lived happily under capitalism all my life on lowly paid jobs and never had money problems. Too many people out there not budgeting properly ,getting into troubles
with these ridiculous credit cards and then blaming everyone else for there ills. Sorry there s always someone that has to disagree with the general thesis and it had to be me :lol:
Too many people out there not budgeting properly ,getting into troubles with these ridiculous credit cards and then blaming everyone else for there ills.
Nope, I fundamentally agree, as that's also a big problem these days: folks living WAY beyond their means! I call it 'false entitlement syndrome'... People thinking that they're 'entitled' to have a lifestyle that that simply can't, or can ill afford, funded by debt, simply because they feel 'pressurised' into owning frivolous and unnecessary material possessions, in order to 'keep up' with others.
When instead what they *should* be doing, is sensibly looking after their best interests, budgeting and managing their finances properly, and not giving a flying fuck what anyone else has got (less or more than they have). Cut your cloth, etc.... And most importantly, learn to take responsibility for your actions, and deal with situations you've created, rather than burying your head in the sand when things go tits up!
Marco.
Minstrel SE
03-06-2019, 08:42
Well, I've lived happily under capitalism all my life on lowly paid jobs and never had money problems. Too many people out there not budgeting properly ,getting into troubles
with these ridiculous credit cards and then blaming everyone else for there ills. Sorry there s always someone that has to disagree with the general thesis and it had to be me :lol:
Ive lived under capitalism, worked hard and been paid a fraction of what Im worth to them. Im more relaxed about it now but capitalism has never really seen me right. Ok you say ...learn.... get your own business but its not quite as easy as that to guarantee a good income.
Point is Ive got a few 50 pound notes now but apart from essentials people have got to be pretty damned talented to see a penny of that. In a depressed economy people tighten their belts.
The rich people I deal with are the most stingy...well apart from a couple of footballers who had out ten grand for a party like its 50p...ok thats money trickling down but you need to buy a hotel first and most of the staff in a hotel are on MW
I think the credit card companies pimp off people in a bad way really. Im not saying I have all the answers but I dont think you can just blame the poor for not budgeting
its all very easy to theorise, but then life takes a hand, and you have to do what is needed even if you aint got it. Life isnt fair...simples
Yeah, there was some women on tv spending nearly 6 grand a year on takeaway coffee s and the wondering why she was in debt :lol:
Landloper
03-06-2019, 08:50
Well, I've lived happily under capitalism all my life on lowly paid jobs and never had money problems. Too many people out there not budgeting properly ,getting into troubles
with these ridiculous credit cards and then blaming everyone else for there ills. Sorry there s always someone that has to disagree with the general thesis and it had to be me :lol:
+ 1
I currently work on the minimum wage & learned how to budget and save [so I occasionally get to buy a new magic box]. We now live under a mixed economy with huge and ever increasing state intervention - it certainly isn't a capitalist system in the classical sense. I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.
Yeah, there was some women on tv spending nearly 6 grand a year on takeaway coffee s and the wondering why she was in debt :lol:
Thick bints:mental:
You seriously wonder how some folks are allowed out themselves!
Marco.
+ 1
I currently work on the minimum wage & learned how to budget and save [so I occasionally get to buy a new magic box]. We now live under a mixed economy with huge and ever increasing state intervention - it certainly isn't a capitalist system in the classical sense. I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.
Thats a super post :)
Landloper
03-06-2019, 08:56
Ive lived under capitalism, worked hard and been paid a fraction of what Im worth to them. Im more relaxed about it now but capitalism has never really seen me right.
Martin, that reminds me of the reply given by a farm labourer when asked by an Agricultural Commissioner 'How much do you earn?':
'A smart lot more than I gets paid!'
I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.
Spot on, John! :clap:
And me too, which is why I only ever saw my working life as a means to an end, not an end in itself... It's amazing to me (and also deeply sad) how for so many folks, their job is their LIFE, which usually tells me, that's the case because they've really got nothing else.
Now, if you're *genuinely* happy with that state of affairs (rather than simply kidding yourself on), then cool.
However, so often it's the case that folk are 'married' to the jobs because there's nothing else in their lives that's worthwhile, so they keep themselves busy simply to blot out, deep down, their unhappiness and loneliness - and that can occur even within a marital relationship, when the love's long since gone out of it, if indeed it ever existed in the first place....
Marco.
Landloper
03-06-2019, 09:00
Thats a super post :)
Thank you, Brian.
its all very easy to theorise, but then life takes a hand, and you have to do what is needed even if you aint got it.
Sorry mate, I disagree. You should be disciplined enough always to live within your means, so in respect of the above, you never have to 'do what's needed', because it's already been done. If you ain't got it, then don't seek to have it!
Do without. Simples. We, as a society, seem to have lost the ability to do without things we can't afford, which is mainly why there's so much debt.
At one time, if you didn't have the money to buy something, you simply didn't have it. Now a dangerous and fundamentally-embedded culture exists of 'I WANT', at all costs, so no wonder some folks find themselves financially in the state that they're in.
What always amazes me too, as has already been mentioned, is not only the folks who overspend on takeaway food/drinks and ready meals, proving that they've *GOT IT* in the first place, but the ones who spend FORTUNES funding a drinking and/or smoking habit, then moan to everyone that they're always skint!:doh::rolleyes:
Clue: if you gave up your bad habits, you wouldn't bloody well be skint...!
Marco.
willbewill
03-06-2019, 09:07
+ 1
I currently work on the minimum wage & learned how to budget and save [so I occasionally get to buy a new magic box]. We now live under a mixed economy with huge and ever increasing state intervention - it certainly isn't a capitalist system in the classical sense. I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.Contentment...the best possible goal. Hat's off to you my friend.
Genuine contentment is worth more than ANY amount of money, which often patently fails to deliver contentment!
Also, in these 'rat race' times, where everyone is running around like headless chickens, working all the hours under the sun, to fund lifestyles they can ill afford, TIME is such a precious commodity...
Having TIME to enjoy life, with those you love, and do what YOU want to do (not what the company you work for or boss wants), is for me intrinsically linked with fulfilment and contentment, and so just as valuable. After all, what's the point in having pots of cash in the bank, if you've got no *time* to enjoy it...??
Marco.
willbewill
03-06-2019, 09:15
Spot on, John! :clap:
And me too, which is why I only ever saw my working life as a means to an end, not an end in itself... It's amazing to me (and also deeply sad) how for so many folks, their job is their LIFE, which usually tells me that's the case because they've really got nothing else.
Now, if you're *genuinely* happy with that state of affairs (rather than simply kidding yourself on), then cool.
However, so often it's the case that folk are 'married' to the jobs because there's nothing else in their lives that's worthwhile, so they keep themselves busy simply to blot out, deep down, their unhappiness and loneliness - and that can occur even within a marital relationship, when the love's long since gone out of it, if indeed it ever existed in the first place....
Marco.I'd put a proviso in... there's can be a big difference between a job and a career.
Most of my working life was in building conservation, it was my career, I loved it, it wasn't like a job it was a pleasure, for which I got paid.
However the career eventually turned into a job when I ended up stuck in head office, I took a big hit on my pension and left...six years early.
Sorry mate, I disagree. You should be disciplined enough always to live within your means, so in respect of the above, you never have to 'do what's needed', because it's already been done. If you ain't got it, then don't seek to have it!
Do without. Simples.
What always amazes me, as has already been mentioned, is not only the folks who overspend on takeaway food/drinks and ready meals, proving that they *HAVE IT* in the first place, but those who spend FORTUNES funding a drinking and/or smoking habit, then moan to everyone that they're poor!:doh::rolleyes:
Clue: if you gave up that unnecessary shite, you wouldn't be poor...
Marco.
well my neighbour had to get into debt due to a dying child for instance... but sure thats not a reason either eh? you see, life isnt just that simple alas....there can be lots of reasons where this can happen...
willbewill
03-06-2019, 09:26
well my neighbour had to get into debt due to a dying child for instance... but sure thats not a reason either eh? you see, life isnt just that simple alas....there can be lots of reasons where this can happen...Yeah that's a hard call, I know how difficult it is for family and friends under the US system, my son in law had surgery recently and there were complications. He works for a large company with good health care etc, but will still end up with a large bill.
+ 1
I currently work on the minimum wage & learned how to budget and save [so I occasionally get to buy a new magic box]. We now live under a mixed economy with huge and ever increasing state intervention - it certainly isn't a capitalist system in the classical sense. I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.
Great post!
I've visited a lot of graveyards in my time, and never have I seen a tombstone saying "I wish I'd gone to work more."
I do have a good job and don't really want for anything, but I made a conscious decision when my kids were born that I wouldn't chase a career that would mean I never saw them growing up. If I'd taken a City job I would never have seen them in the week, and would have been too knackered at the weekends to have any fun with them! Some things are more precious than money in the bank, the latest car or shiny box. Most of my spare cash is spent creating memories.
well my neighbour had to get into debt due to a dying child for instance... but sure thats not a reason either eh? you see, life isnt just that simple alas....there can be lots of reasons where this can happen...
Ok, but that was exceptional circumstances, and hardly the norm. Also, I don't know the circumstances of course, but I'm almost certain that there could've been another way. Couldn't any friends or family have helped out and loaned them the cash they needed?
What was the illness in question, and was it not treatable on the NHS? Also, I presume that the illness wasn't terminal, and so the debt accrued, allowed the child the treatment it needed to save its life? Otherwise it would all be rather pointless.
Marco.
I've visited a lot of graveyards in my time, and never have I seen a tombstone saying "I wish I'd gone to work more."
I do have a good job and don't really want for anything, but I made a conscious decision when my kids were born that I wouldn't chase a career that would mean I never saw them growing up. If I'd taken a City job I would never have seen them in the week, and would have been too knackered at the weekends to have any fun with them! Some things are more precious than money in the bank, the latest car or shiny box. Most of my spare cash is spent creating memories.
*Spot on*, Alex! An admirable outlook, and no doubt it's also proved to be a rewarding one :)
THAT is the correct way to be a parent. Textbook stuff! Now, it's just a pity so many these days haven't followed your example!:doh:
As far as money goes, the only purpose it should serve is in providing you with a comfortable standard of living, giving you the FREEDOM to do the things YOU want to do, allowing you to pay all the bills, LIVE well [and that doesn't mean expensively], and still see plenty of your wife and/or kids.
The bottom line is that money should be a slave to YOU, and never *you* a slave to IT.................. It should always be treated responsibly. As long as you've got 'enough', what more do you need?
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-06-2019, 09:57
Excelent post John :)
A...
+ 1
I currently work on the minimum wage & learned how to budget and save [so I occasionally get to buy a new magic box]. We now live under a mixed economy with huge and ever increasing state intervention - it certainly isn't a capitalist system in the classical sense. I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.
Landloper
03-06-2019, 10:14
I've visited a lot of graveyards in my time, and never have I seen a tombstone saying "I wish I'd gone to work more."
Indeed!
Landloper
03-06-2019, 10:15
Thank you.
Landloper
03-06-2019, 10:25
I agree, Marco, that some people do seem to throw themselves into work to offset or to avoid difficult or unrewarding circumstances elsewhere. On the other hand, I've known those who seem to derive genuine satisfaction in their work in an open and infectious manner.
I pretty much decided to make the kinds of choices I have done early on in adult life. I will be 58 this year, so although I could indeed be kidding myself, it looks as if I'll be tumbling into my grave under the same illusion. There are consequences involved in this way of living - things can be very tight at times and one sometimes wants to do things but can't because there isn't enough money. I think not being able to help others enough financially is something I didn't consider earlier on in life. I think I would class that as one undesirable consequence of my preferences.
I'd put a proviso in... there's can be a big difference between a job and a career.
Most of my working life was in building conservation, it was my career, I loved it, it wasn't like a job it was a pleasure, for which I got paid.
However the career eventually turned into a job when I ended up stuck in head office, I took a big hit on my pension and left...six years early.
Yeah, I get that. I liked my job too (still do, when I do it, as I'm semi-retired now), as for most of my working life I was self-employed, doing something that I loved, and was in full control of my destiny, as it were. My wife also loves her job as a teacher, but will be retiring herself soon, and then we'll have all the time in the world to do the things we've always wanted to do!
Ultimately, I still enjoy FAR MORE the company of my wife, friends and family, and socialising together, than I ever did my job! And which is why, for me, having a job was only ever a means to an end - and that end was when the stage was reached where I no longer needed to work full time, and so could spend more time with the people I cared about.
That has to be the ultimate goal, surely? And also ENJOYING the money you've made working, while you're still young and fit enough to do so!
That's so often not the case though, and lots of guys will do anything they can to get away from 'the wife' or 'her indoors' (spend hours in the pub every night, working overtime or whatever), because they're not in a happy relationship, which is why they make their job their life, as their home life isn't a happy one, and so it acts as a form of escapism, and drowns out REALITY.
I couldn't imagine what that must feel like, but sadly, it's a reality for many.
Marco.
Are you having a sense of humour bypass tonight, Mike?:doh:
If Joe would like me to remove his 'badge', then all he has to do is say so!
Marco.
I didn't ask for the badge and don't want it. Please remove it.
Ok, what would you like instead: it reverted back to your previous title of 'No Agenda', or something else?:)
Marco.
Ok, what would you like instead: it reverted back to your previous title of 'No Agenda', or something else?:)
Marco.
Just back to 'No Agenda' would be fine.
Ok, done... But do me a favour now and don't give me cause to call you 'Captain Apathy' again;)
That means in future, if I'm ranting about something you're apathetic about, or disagree with, just ignore it, rather posting song lyrics, in order to convey your 'sense of humour', which I just find annoying.
Do we have a deal?:)
Marco.
its all very easy to theorise, but then life takes a hand, and you have to do what is needed even if you aint got it. Life isnt fair...simples
I think the best advice is that which Christ gave about not judging others, lest you be judged and found wanting.
There are all sorts of reasons why people's lives can go wrong; mental or physical illness, divorce (own or parents'), redundancy. Unless you know the person's situation in some detail, it's best not to assume that their problems are down to greed, fecklessness or other self-inflicted injuries. Take the bloke sleeping rough near Wrexham Cathedral that Marco mentioned. How did he end up in that state? Was it entirely his fault, or bad luck, or circumstances beyond his control? Quite possibly it was a mixture of all those three.
Well, I've lived happily under capitalism all my life on lowly paid jobs and never had money problems. Too many people out there not budgeting properly ,getting into troubles
with these ridiculous credit cards and then blaming everyone else for there ills. Sorry there s always someone that has to disagree with the general thesis and it had to be me :lol:
I also with you in disagreeing. 'Capitalism was an experiment that lasted 100 years.' Eh?
Really some bizarre stuff being posted on this thread.
Ok, done... But do me a favour now and don't give me cause to call you 'Captain Apathy' again;)
That means in future, if I'm ranting about something you're apathetic about, or disagree with, just ignore it, rather posting song lyrics, in order to convey your 'sense of humour', which I just find annoying.
Do we have a deal?:)
Marco.
That sounds a bit one-sided. Will you in turn agree to ignore something I'm ranting about if you disagree or feel apathetic about it?
Yeah, absolutely:)
Marco.
Nice one:thumbsup:
Marco.
Hi John,
I agree, Marco, that some people do seem to throw themselves into work to offset or to avoid difficult or unrewarding circumstances elsewhere. On the other hand, I've known those who seem to derive genuine satisfaction in their work in an open and infectious manner.
Yup, that's defo the case. However, in terms of the latter, what's their end goal? Is it to keep on working until they drop, even though they derive great satisfaction from their job, or only up until the point is reached where they've earned enough money to enjoy things other than work, and are still young and fit enough to do so?
For me, there's simply no point in working your fingers to the bone, if it's not towards achieving a positive 'end goal', and especially if it's to the detriment of your personal life.
I pretty much decided to make the kinds of choices I have done early on in adult life. I will be 58 this year, so although I could indeed be kidding myself, it looks as if I'll be tumbling into my grave under the same illusion. There are consequences involved in this way of living - things can be very tight at times and one sometimes wants to do things but can't because there isn't enough money. I think not being able to help others enough financially is something I didn't consider earlier on in life. I think I would class that as one undesirable consequence of my preferences.
Sure, I get that. As Grant says, life's not fair, or indeed perfect. It's all about making sacrifices and choosing your priorities.
However, ask yourself this question:
Do you (and/or your loved ones) feel happier/less stressed and more contented now with your decision of not working until your dotage, and until you're too old to do it anymore, yet still being able to lead a reasonably comfortable life, even though at times it can be hard, than you did before you made that choice?
If you can answer that with a firm 'Yes', then worry not and just enjoy life, helping others as much as you can, perhaps in rewarding ways other than simply with money, because at the end of the day, maintaining close relationships with those you care about, will always matter more than money.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
03-06-2019, 17:13
Well, I've lived happily under capitalism all my life on lowly paid jobs and never had money problems. Too many people out there not budgeting properly ,getting into troubles
with these ridiculous credit cards and then blaming everyone else for there ills. Sorry there s always someone that has to disagree with the general thesis and it had to be me :lol:
I don't see you disagreeing here Brian, I agree with Martin and with you. You both highlight problems which need to be addressed in my view.
Pigmy Pony
03-06-2019, 17:20
+ 1
I currently work on the minimum wage & learned how to budget and save [so I occasionally get to buy a new magic box]. We now live under a mixed economy with huge and ever increasing state intervention - it certainly isn't a capitalist system in the classical sense. I've never wanted what many others around me seemed to want - to own their own house, to have a career, to gather material wealth, &c. That's not a criticism of those who do work long hours or take risks for those goals, only that for me meeting my economic obligations by working shortest number of hours a week possible was a more desirable goal. Forgoing pursuing a higher standard of material comfort in exchange for more time to devote to pursuing cultural wealth has seemed preferable to me.
The way to happiness is not to earn more, but to need less. Or something like that. Not sure who said that, but I think it has merit.
Happiness is the result of the brain releasing serotonin isn't it? So whatever does that for you is what makes you happy.
Pigmy Pony
03-06-2019, 17:39
Happiness is the result of the brain releasing serotonin isn't it? So whatever does that for you is what makes you happy.
Yeah, going to raves were some of the happiest times of my life :D Serotonin's where it's at.
Laughter is the best form of medicine. Always one of the truest sayings I think
Minstrel SE
03-06-2019, 21:15
I dont know how it mainly got onto budgeting. I never said life was fair. Its a question of how unfair.
I have a serenity to know that material possessions do not necessarily make me happy but maybe I have just been conditioned to accept my lot. You cant say I wouldnt like a massive house and a Lambo
If you show people unlimited wealth I would think its quite natural to get uneasy and jealous. Im saying the rich are stinking rich and we have a real poverty problem in this country.
Its a bit too glib to say they spend it all on fags and booze. Someone will be quoting Mr Micawber next :)
Laughter is the best form of medicine. Always one of the truest sayings I think
It's good to be able to laugh at yourself, because you get a boost of serotonin every time you look in the mirror.
Pigmy Pony
04-06-2019, 06:22
Looking in the mirror just makes my shoulders sag.
The way to happiness is not to earn more, but to need less. Or something like that. Not sure who said that, but I think it has merit.
It not only has merit; it's fundamentally true!
The corollary, of course, is if you discipline yourself to *need less*, then you don't need to earn as much to enjoy a comfortable (for you) lifestyle, and of course don't need to work as much to fund it, leaving you with more time to actually LIVE...;)
That's the message that should be preached in today's money-orientated, materialistic society, and also to misguided workaholics: be happier with a simpler life!
:exactly:
Marco.
Laughter is the best form of medicine. Always one of the truest sayings I think
Hence my signature: "Be Happy Everyday"...
Folks need to learn to be happy having the MOST important things in life (if applicable): good health, people who truly love them and would do *anything* for them, and feeling fulfilled and contented with life - and no amount of money or material possessions can EVER make up for that, if you don't have it.
I'm very blessed, and indeed lucky, to wake up every morning feeling happy, because I'm genuinely fulfilled and contented with life:)
Marco.
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