View Full Version : Sony TTS-8000 Turntable
thanks for doing that,well im stumped as to why are arms differ in that case,does your kb use the mounting holes 2nd row in from the front of headshell?
Bigman80
18-05-2019, 11:36
thanks for doing that,well im stumped as to why are arms differ in that case,does your kb use the mounting holes 2nd row in from the front of headshell?Yes, I believe so. I have no idea mate unless as Angus said, the cantilever is different. Other than that, I have no idea. I'm going to have a good look for my protractor later and just check everything out
Patrick Dixon
18-05-2019, 21:45
This one is mine: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303142431249
Collected it today.
This one is mine: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303142431249
Collected it today.
i hope you didn't pay £2500 for it :eek:
Patrick Dixon
19-05-2019, 06:38
i hope you didn't pay £2500 for it :eek:
Is it not worth that?
Surely as an owner of one, you should be talking the price up? ;-)
It's worth what someone pays for it.
A top-flight motor unit in a substantially built plinth with an SME arm and cartridge. The TTS8000 is rightfully growing in reputation and value, IMO.
It is a very good TT, if the arm is not required and put up for resale there is potentially another £300+ recovered from the sale price.
As for value, they don't make them any more, so the £K+ appears to be the base asking price in many Ad's over the past months.
When it is up and running, comparing it to a Multiple £K TT set up, will let the purchaser know what a bargain they have in their possession.
If the SP10 and TTS 8000 are close competitors, then the expressed positive appraisals offered by a variety of TT enthusiasts, Die Hard Vinylists to Bespoke TT Builders, about my SP10 front end at Kegworth, should assure the new owner of the TTS 8000, they have a very good corner stone to build a Vinyl System from.
I have the opportunity to trial the SP10/TTS 8000, but the SP10 is such a good experience, I am in no rush to
go down that road.
yep im very happy to be wrong in this instance,i hadn't realised they'd shot up so much in value. happy days!
Patrick Dixon
19-05-2019, 08:17
I felt it was worth £1500 based on it looking like units without arm/cartridge were going for around £1100 and this also having an SME 2 Imp and Ortofon SL-15E.
It's a UK model too, which adds to the value in my eyes.
So that's what I offered and what was accepted.
The SME also has the rare-ish damping trough, but since I already have a surplus identical detachable headshell version I'll probably sell that on. I'll try the Ortofon before deciding what to do, but it's not a Decca so slim chance of keeping it ;-)
I spent a couple of hours setting it up yesterday with another Mission 774/Decca. It's a bit of a lash-up but it's sounding OK. I suppose I should clean it!
One tip I'll pass on is to turn the lock off and adjust the speeds until they are as close as possible; then turn the lock back on. The PLL has less work to do if the frequencies are already close and I think it sounds better for it.
ah well thats a different story then,a good buy and welcome to the club,ive got some big changes planned for mine soon. :cool:
yep im very happy to be wrong in this instance,i hadn't realised they'd shot up so much in value. happy days!
One sale on eBay doesn't mean much and should never be a guide price, now if several have sold at that then you're talking, that TT had been up for sale before 3 or 4 times and was withdrawn, then put back on at let's say, a different price to what the original auction was possibly going to end at, seller withdrew it before it ended, so I think someone told the seller it was worth a lot more than it was originally going to sell for, which going by previous sales was optimistic, it reappeared a week later at more than double then it sat on eBay for the next few months at the latest asking price. I was going to bid on the original auction but it was pulled before I got the chance.
There's another one for sale on eBay minus the plinth and arm for £1500 and has been for months. It might sell once it drops to about £600- 700 otherwise it's going to sit there a very long time.
The mint one that sold from Germany is probably more reflective of the right value.
I know on here most forum users pretty much know what something is worth second hand, unfortunately there are lots of people out there that see something on eBay at a certain asking price and go wow I've got one of those look how much it's worth! Sorry, asking price on eBay isn't what something is worth, it's the selling price people need to look at.
But I will also say this, if someone wants to pay whatever price is asked then that's up to them, as long as they enjoy that purchase then cost is irrelevant.
I felt it was worth £1500 based on it looking like units without arm/cartridge were going for around £1100 and this also having an SME 2 Imp and Ortofon SL-15E.
It's a UK model too, which adds to the value in my eyes.
So that's what I offered and what was accepted.
The SME also has the rare-ish damping trough, but since I already have a surplus identical detachable headshell version I'll probably sell that on. I'll try the Ortofon before deciding what to do, but it's not a Decca so slim chance of keeping it ;-)
I spent a couple of hours setting it up yesterday with another Mission 774/Decca. It's a bit of a lash-up but it's sounding OK. I suppose I should clean it!
One tip I'll pass on is to turn the lock off and adjust the speeds until they are as close as possible; then turn the lock back on. The PLL has less work to do if the frequencies are already close and I think it sounds better for it.Good haggling there, seller obviously realised they were asking too much.
ah well thats a different story then,a good buy and welcome to the club,ive got some big changes planned for mine soon. :cool:Phew, I'm relieved too, hate it when I think I see someone pay over the odds [emoji6]
One sale on eBay doesn't mean much and should never be a guide price, now if several have sold at that then you're talking, that TT had been up for sale before 3 or 4 times and was withdrawn, then put back on at let's say, a different price to what the original auction was possibly going to end at, seller withdrew it before it ended, so I think someone told the seller it was worth a lot more than it was originally going to sell for, which going by previous sales was optimistic, it reappeared a week later at more than double then it sat on eBay for the next few months at the latest asking price. I was going to bid on the original auction but it was pulled before I got the chance.
There's another one for sale on eBay minus the plinth and arm for £1500 and has been for months. It might sell once it drops to about £600- 700 otherwise it's going to sit there a very long time.
The mint one that sold from Germany is probably more reflective of the right value.
I know on here most forum users pretty much know what something is worth second hand, unfortunately there are lots of people out there that see something on eBay at a certain asking price and go wow I've got one of those look how much it's worth! Sorry, asking price on eBay isn't what something is worth, it's the selling price people need to look at.
But I will also say this, if someone wants to pay whatever price is asked then that's up to them, as long as they enjoy that purchase then cost is irrelevant.
i know that mate,i was being sympathetic in reply to patricks post,i thought he'd paid the sellers asking price,imo the motor unit on its own is grand all day long,slightly over or under is ofc up to the individual.
Bigman80
19-05-2019, 08:29
It is a very good TT, if the arm is not required and put up for resale there is potentially another £300+ recovered from the sale price.
As for value, they don't make them any more, so the £K+ appears to be the base asking price in many Ad's over the past months.
When it is up and running, comparing it to a Multiple £K TT set up, will let the purchaser know what a bargain they have in their possession.
If the SP10 and TTS 8000 are close competitors, then the expressed positive appraisals offered by a variety of TT enthusiasts, Die Hard Vinylists to Bespoke TT Builders, about my SP10 front end at Kegworth, should assure the new owner of the TTS 8000, they have a very good corner stone to build a Vinyl System from.
I have the opportunity to trial the SP10/TTS 8000, but the SP10 is such a good experience, I am in no rush to
go down that road.Hi John,
I have heard both of these TTs, in identical plinths and with identical PMAT1010 tonearm. Same cartridge, same everything.
The comparison was done in my own system and with material I knew really well.
I had the option to swap my SP10 for the TTS8000, and having long been an admirer of the Sony, certainly longer than the SP10, I felt quite sure I would take the option and make the swap, untill I did the comparison.
They may be two super high quality turntables but I definitely preferred the SP10.
There will always those that have a different opinion and I respect that, their money, their decision.
i know that mate,i was being sympathetic in reply to patricks post,i thought he'd paid the sellers asking price,imo the motor unit on its own is grand all day long,slightly over or under is ofc up to the individual.Yip totally agree, I must admit I nearly said something too in case full asking was paid and could have backed out, but then I thought as Grant said it's worth what someone is willing to pay. I bet it cleans up nice and plays great. Have been tempted to try one myself but I'll stick with my modded Techie just now ( famous last words, I've nearly listed 3 or 4 times in the last few months )
In fact I've recently contemplated selling the whole lot and using the cash for something else [emoji23]
Hi John,
There will always those that have a different opinion and I respect that, their money, their decision.
Yes and only mine matters, to me :ner:
Yes and only mine matters, to me :ner:That's cos it'll be right [emoji106][emoji23]
Bigman80
19-05-2019, 09:08
Yes and only mine matters, to me :ner:Absolutely mate.
I have searched out Three Items over the Past 2 Years, but not all are searches that have extended back so far.
Item one,
OTA, fully refurbished OTEC R Treble Panel, ESL 57 Speaker. ( Never Found a Pair that the 'OTA' Supported, follow up investigation of the refurb works were proven, at any price ).
My search is now very much reduced.
Item Two,
One for Ollie, Ortofon Vienna, never found a genuine offer, but subjected to
'Four Blatant Fraud Attempts'.
I Recently managed to get a very good alternative MC to the Vienna. The route to achieve this was much friendlier and not in any way insulting through Scammers getting involved.
I think with more run in time on the Alternative MC, a fairer final analysis will produce a more convincing statement, that a search for a Vienna is not so critical.
My search is now very much reduced. ( On this one, I will happily accept Snoozers are Losers, if a Vienna ever appears).
Vintage Japanese DD TT's, I have searched the Globe for Quality Models, I do not know any models proved functioning, in the Brands I am investigating, that can be found in a reasonable condition and working for the much less than a £1000.
Taking into account many on offer will be a absolute punt, as there will be no valuable vendor communication and no returns allowed, and considering the TT is of a Vintage Status, there is a lot of risk for ones hard earned funds.
To be able to purchase a proven working Vintage TT, is real peace of mind.
I bought my SP10 from what I will say, was a Shed Clearance Individual, the seller was savvie enough to investigate values, and was hoping for top dollar for what I was viewing as a very suspicious looking item, in relation to feeling any confidence about how it would function, it was a junk item in my view.
I was extremely fortunate to have had Angus take on my old beaten SP10, and after many head scratching moments, Angus had trouble shot his way through numerous complications, to bring into the fold a perfectly overhauled functioning TT.
I am looking for a SP10 for a friend at present, they will not commit to any models I am presenting for their assessment, as they are not willing to take a punt on any models I am finding within their budget, as these are risky purchase options from foreign countries.
If they were to increase the budget, then UK models will come onto the list.
The recent purchase in discussion of the TTS 8000 was a clear and calculated assessment, the buyer has made a purchase he is very satisfied with, as his purchase criteria was met.
Patrick Dixon
19-05-2019, 10:00
Well I'm touched that you're worried I might have paid too much but I really didn't need another deck and so was only ever prepared to pay what I though was a fair market value for curiousity's sake.
I came across that one a few weeks ago and watched it for a bit to see what would happen. The listing expired and then it got re-listed a couple of times so I just sent a polite note to the seller explaining what I thought it was worth and why, and what I was prepared to pay. It helped that collection and cash wasn't a problem for me and the seller turned out to be a really nice chap just trying to realise the best prices for his (deceased, I assume) Dad's Hi-Fi about which he knew very little.
[I'd like to post a photo of it with the lashed-up Mission/Decca here but I can't see how to upload an attachment. I guess that might be disabled?]
Figured it out, but not sure why it's a thumbnail?
26102
I had to add some bits of lead to the counterweight stub because I only have one heavy counterweight, and that's on the other 774 on the Thorens 124. I haven't used any damping on the arm at the moment.
It's everything I was taught to hate in the 70s; sloping platter sides, strobes, quartz lock and very Japanese styling but I am rapidly getting used to it's functional simplicity. I like the instant start and stop, the touch on/off and it's quiet efficiency. The mat is a bit of an issue because it's not very flat and Deccas really don't really like warps.
It sounds really good; plenty of power and idler-level timing but also with delicacy and detail. I'm impressed so far.
here you go patrick :cool:
it looks great .
https://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26102&d=1558260445
Patrick Dixon
19-05-2019, 10:33
Thanks. So how do you do that then?
It's missing the singles adapter thingy, but I'm never going to use that anyway.
Interested to hear about your big plans ...
i just copied you photo location address and pasted it into the photo frame icon above the reply box.
regarding the changes,i intend to make a new plinth in either mu25 plywood which i have already or depending on the price panzerholz,i have enough panzerholz to do the arm board,although the standard sony one will be hard to beat (lead) and once my router arrives i will make a start.the whole lot will be veneered in something nice,ive nit made my mind up yet but im leaning towards rio rosewood. watch this space!
oh and regarding the mat,yes they all seem to suffer from oil build up around the edge,mine isnt too bad but its not perfect,a tenuto or similar metal mat is a great upgrade or just leave the sony mate between 2 bits of glass for a few days under weight,mine responds well to this. :cool:
Bigman80
19-05-2019, 11:42
i just copied you photo location address and pasted it into the photo frame icon above the reply box.
regarding the changes,i intend to make a new plinth in either mu25 plywood which i have already or depending on the price panzerholz,i have enough panzerholz to do the arm board,although the standard sony one will be hard to beat (lead) and once my router arrives i will make a start.the whole lot will be veneered in something nice,ive nit made my mind up yet but im leaning towards rio rosewood. watch this space!Rio rosewood! Very nice.
If you go panzerholtz, I'll be very interested In the final result. I have a 32mm one on the way for mine [emoji16]
my new router arrives tomorrow,ive just got a price for 2 25mm boards of panzerholz which seems reasonable and mark is very kindly doing me a template when im ready to do the cut out for the motor unit so im very near starting.
1 option i may explore is making the tonearm mounting collar in panzerholz,you may want to run that by angus oliver if you read this and see what he thinks if its worth the grief over the standard AT one.
i also have a large board of beach mu25 plywood so i will knock another plinth up in that for comparison
watch this space as they say.....
Bigman80
20-05-2019, 17:30
my new router arrives tomorrow,ive just got a price for 2 25mm boards of panzerholz which seems reasonable and mark is very kindly doing me a template when im ready to do the cut out for the motor unit so im very near starting.
1 option i may explore is making the tonearm mounting collar in panzerholz,you may want to run that by angus oliver if you read this and see what he thinks if its worth the grief over the standard AT one.
watch this space as they say.....
Ah, I like your thinking. I'll see what Angus thinks.
Just to throw another version of Plinth Material into the mix.
When I finally get around to it, I intend on producing one in 'Phonotherm' for the TTS 8000.
There might be a version for a SP10 produced in the near future, as I have sent a few samples of Phonotherm out to a few established R&D'ers, it is getting comments of it being a material of interest.
How it performs as a plinth, is yet to be seen.
It is a material that I am now feeling secure about putting into use permanently, as I have picked up on the benefits of it as Sub Plinth with a TT. It attenuated in a more attractive manor, for my ears, so won over the previous used very heavy slate sub plinth I had been using.
DiveDeepDog
20-05-2019, 21:11
Patrick, glad it worked out for you, I tried quite hard to buy it but the seller got the hump when the add was 1st pulled by ebay for COC, thought I'd reported him ( I hadn't).
Re: plinth material, I've tried a few with Garrard 401 *, slate and Panzer sit collecting dust as I prefer ply with an isolated Corian armboard. Beech Multiplex with isolated top plate was superior, but I'm not convinced it worth the extra cost (£200 vs £50) for a sheet.
I reckon how the arms supported is as much an influence to the sound, so we should be looking at separate arm pods rather than hung up on materials??**
*Garrard's produce much greater amounts of vibration compared to SP10 and TTS.
**Compare a Rega RB arm with nut just tight enough to one thats been spanered, very different sounds.
JohnG, can you point me towards that sheet material, I'm game to try if its cheap :D
Patrick Dixon
20-05-2019, 21:50
Sometimes you are just in the right place at the right time I think. I didn't really expect to get it, but it probably helps not to be too desperate because if you've just gotta have it, you either overpay or are disappointed.
But then sometimes overpaying a little is not the worst thing in the world either.
phonomac
21-05-2019, 17:20
......i may explore is making the tonearm mounting collar in panzerholz,you may want to run that by angus oliver if you read this and see what he thinks if its worth the grief over the standard AT one.....
There could be an advantage to using a Panzerholz collar with a standard AT-1010. The PMAT-1010 has design features that address issues in that area, but you wouldn't lose anything by trying it. I don't think you would gain anything though.
thanks for your input angus,to be honest i was hoping you'd say that as it looks like a load of hassle to do,especially with just a router! lol
DiveDeepDog
21-05-2019, 19:16
Tim/ Spider made a Corian collar for his Alphason HRS-100 to get better position on the SP10 plinth I did for him, he may be able to help if you've Panzar off cut ?
It'd be easier with a lathe though.
My project to keep me busy has started,it starts with a template to route out the motor unit for the new plinth.Eager to use my new makita router i made a start.
The easiest way to do this is use a bearing guided flush cut router bit and follow the cut out on the old plinth.
https://i.postimg.cc/NFDgG5VN/IMG-3331.jpg
Bigman80
25-05-2019, 16:44
Watching very closely. The veneer on the Panzerholtz will be of great Interest.
i cant decide at the moment between rosewood or cocobolo
wumpling
27-05-2019, 09:08
Glad to see you're still enjoying the Sony, Jamie. A 110v model came up for sale recently near Lakenheath I think. Bit pricey considering it was missing plinth and cover. Perhaps you can pass on the old ones when you're done creating a new work of art.
Bigman80
27-05-2019, 09:23
Glad to see you're still enjoying the Sony, Jamie. A 110v model came up for sale recently near Lakenheath I think. Bit pricey considering it was missing plinth and cover. Perhaps you can pass on the old ones when you're done creating a new work of art.
Can't imagine he'll move the original plinth on as they are difficult/impossible to find and a TTS8000 will always command a greater price with its original plinth.
I take it you don’t need a routing template making any more then?
————
My experience is that armboard material and construction are at least as important as general plinth material. However, I’m less impressed by the concept of separate arm pods.
DiveDeepDog
27-05-2019, 10:01
Glad to see you're still enjoying the Sony, Jamie. A 110v model came up for sale recently near Lakenheath I think. Bit pricey considering it was missing plinth and cover. Perhaps you can pass on the old ones when you're done creating a new work of art.
Mint in box and still smells brand new. Don't think it'd ever played a record. Worth every penny...:D
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32830429467_9625f50e33_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S27wTn)IMG_5353 (https://flic.kr/p/S27wTn) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
Bigman80
27-05-2019, 12:33
Mint in box and still smells brand new. Don't think it'd ever played a record. Worth every penny...:D
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32830429467_9625f50e33_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S27wTn)IMG_5353 (https://flic.kr/p/S27wTn) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on FlickrWow. Looks fantastic!
I take it you don’t need a routing template making any more then?
————
My experience is that armboard material and construction are at least as important as general plinth material. However, I’m less impressed by the concept of separate arm pods.
sorry mark i should have let you know.
regarding arm boards and plinths is it better to have the armboard of a different damping factor,ie to act as a barrier for any vibration coming from the motor and flowing into the plinth? my limited knowledge says yes.
Mint in box and still smells brand new. Don't think it'd ever played a record. Worth every penny...:D
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32830429467_9625f50e33_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S27wTn)IMG_5353 (https://flic.kr/p/S27wTn) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
very nice mate,i thought these were bloody rare? everbodys getting them now lol
RobbieGong
27-05-2019, 15:54
very nice mate,i thought these were bloody rare? everbodys getting them now lol
Ha ha, that's AOS for ya :)
DiveDeepDog
27-05-2019, 16:20
I like to see what the fuss is all about myself, I've recently built an SP10 and didn't think enough to buy one myself then the TTS popped up.
Plinth is WIP, Beech multiplex, Bentonite resin core with Corian arm board :sofa: I still prefer Garrard :eek::drugs::wowzer:
ah Bentonite is something ive been looking into lately,what do you think if used in conjuction with panzerholz? of course you could always through some chips of lead into the resin mix if you like:eyebrows:
DiveDeepDog
27-05-2019, 17:32
I forgot, I had a couple of kilo's of lead shot, thew that in too :eyebrows:
I found the Bentonite/resin fairly easy, I may do another with 3mm ply skin and see what that does? It was accident, I only had 2 pieces of Multiplex left, the lower 2 layers were rings off the top 2 so I had a void to fill.
The Sony's so quiet and vibration free (compared to Garrard) I'm not convinced it needs much beyond a stable platform. Differences we're hearing are more to do with arm mounting .*
*1st go, I've got some alternative mounting options I've got to try, motor unit currently on stand-offs not touching the Corian, I may change my mind...
I am intending towards the end of this year to put my rebuilt SP10 mounted in the supplied non standard plinth ,
TTS 8000 mounted in a non standard plinth (material to be selected ), GL75 fully overhauled and mounted in a Custom Plinth and a PTP Solid 9 with upgraded bearing, all under the scrutiny of a few different ears.
All will have a Tenuto used at the time of audition, and I will use the same support for each audition.
My experience tells me, that different supports/attenuation favor different devices, but the use of a standard support across the auditions, will be required to attain as much comparison info as possible.
I am intending on using the PMAT-1010 on all the TT's.
It will be a challenge, but if prepared for correctly, only the GL75, will be the worst candidate to exchange a Tonearm on, as the other three TT's will be prepped in advance to receive the PMAT-1010.
It should be a interesting day of renovated DD's vs Idler Drives.
I have heard the direct comparisons of the two designs on a few occasions, admittedly not with both sharing the same Tonearm, Cartridge and Equipment Support. The outcome to date is that I am not of total preference for either, but the strengths of the DD have won me over and I am now using DD TT's in the system as well as Idler. The idea of a showdown using like for like conditions during the replays should prove more revealing of the differences between the SQ's and strengths/weaknesses of each, as I am sure one vs the other will put forward different attractor/detractor moments .
what you need to do is to find someone whos already got a tenuto mat and a phonomac at-1010 .that will take some hassle out of the test.:eyebrows:
If it is off interest, I will let you know nearer the time.
I do like and rate the Paradise, so would enjoy to listen to that again.
I know of Two TTS owners who now have Paradise's as their chosen Phonostage.
another piece of the puzzle has arrived,
2 boards of panzerholz,my thoughts so far are to use 1 board rather than 2.
https://i.postimg.cc/HxZgr4NJ/IMG-3350.jpg
Bigman80
02-06-2019, 16:06
One for the plinth one for an isolation platform?
yes or another plinth,ive gone with cocobolo veneer which should be here next week from germany.exciting times :)
Patrick Dixon
02-06-2019, 17:52
I am just worried that all this new expense means you are now forced to eat dog meat sandwiches. Honestly it not worth it, it's just a hobby after all!
lol oh the dogs alright,im on just bread!
Bigman80
02-06-2019, 18:29
yes or another plinth,ive gone with cocobolo veneer which should be here next week from germany.exciting times :)That sounds fantastic to be honest. Watching with interest
cool,ive got to make a veneer press too at some point :eek:
Bigman80
02-06-2019, 19:02
cool,ive got to make a veneer press too at some point :eek:I'll have to Google that lol
RobbieGong
02-06-2019, 20:07
another piece of the puzzle has arrived,
2 boards of panzerholz,my thoughts so far are to use 1 board rather than 2.
https://i.postimg.cc/HxZgr4NJ/IMG-3350.jpg
What's the depth of each board Jamie ?
hi rob,the size of each board is 530mm x500mm x 25mm.
A small update,
My Ortofon KB is taking a little holiday in Holland this week :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
03-07-2019, 07:34
Is Kilian fitting a FGS tip to it by any chance ? :eyebrows:
Bigman80
03-07-2019, 08:29
A small update,
My Ortofon KB is taking a little holiday in Holland this week :eyebrows:Awesome. Unfortunately it seems that Ortofon have decided that certain parts of the Kb innards will no longer be available. If the Kb dies at any point, it's irreplaceable.
How sad.
Look after it Jamie, I am going to get me a spare when I can afford one.
Who told you that?
After advice from killian Ive decided not to go for the Vienna upgrade so its a full inspection and retip if needed.
Bigman80
03-07-2019, 09:38
Who told you that?
After advice from killian Ive decided not to go for the Vienna upgrade so its a full inspection and retip if needed.It came from Angus.
Why not do the upgrade?
He told me that a few customers had not liked the upgrade over the standard kB sound,one even had his return back to normal,killian told me that the vienna mods can be too analytical or clinical for some people’s tastes and after hearing what speakers I use his advice was to stick with the stock kB.
So I’ll send it off to him and await his report.
Bigman80
03-07-2019, 10:15
He told me that a few customers had not liked the upgrade over the standard kB sound,one even had his return back to normal,killian told me that the vienna mods can be too analytical or clinical for some people’s tastes and after hearing what speakers I use his advice was to stick with the stock kB.
So I’ll send it off to him and await his report.Really?
Well I hope its spot on when you get it back.
Yes really!
It seems perfectly good advice to me, after all he knows what both sound like.
Given that we have both heard a real vienna I’d say he’s spot on, warm sounding they not lol
Bigman80
03-07-2019, 10:52
Yes really!
It seems perfectly good advice to me, after all he knows what both sound like.
Given that we have both heard a real vienna I’d say he’s spot on, warm sounding they not lolLol I suppose so but I'd not describe the Vienna as clinical, I really like what it does!
I’m just saying what I was told by the guy that does the work mate.
phonomac
03-07-2019, 12:36
It came from Angus.....
As advised by Kilian last week. Kontrapunkt and Vienna tension wires no longer available as spares.
Bigman80
03-07-2019, 13:15
I’m just saying what I was told by the guy that does the work mate.
That's fair enough.
I have had the pleasure of listening to one frequently in my system so I'm very confident that the Vienna Upgrade would suit me perfectly.
I'd still like a spare Kb, just in case!
As advised by Kilian last week. Kontrapunkt and Vienna tension wires no longer available as spares.
With that in mind perhaps I should go for the upgrade before it’s too late, what do you think?
Bigman80
03-07-2019, 14:03
With that in mind perhaps I should go for the upgrade before it’s too late, what do you think?
IMHO, I would 100% get the Vienna upgrade before it's no longer possible as once they are gone, its gone forever and if I had the funds, mine would already be on the way. As it stands, its looking like a Cadenza Blue with FGS stylus is going to be the way to move forward once this option is no longer an option. Kb's pop up quite regular. Could always get another if you aren't happy.
Most of that is a paraphrase of what Angus said lol
Interesting , might have to pull my finger out with my knackered KB :scratch:
If the option to rebuild a K'b to a design by Holistic Audio is becoming very limited due to the Ortofon parts being no longer available.
My experience of the rebuilt K'b using these internal upgrade parts is extremely positive, hopefully they may be functioning for a few thousand hours so could work with a few diamond replacements.
I can highly recommend the build service from Holistic Audio, and would say to the K,b owners assessing this as a build route, go for it, while it is still available.
Well i emailed HA re my KB which has a broken cantilever and got a (very quick!) reply as follows -
"thank you for your message. It is correct that we restore and upgrade many cartridge types. With the Kontrapunkt B there is an issue with broken-off cantilevers;* invariably that particular type of damage results in internal damage which cannot be restored as Ortofon has stopped the production of some vital components last November.
Since March of this year, we can only upgrade complete and operable Kontrapunkt Bs with worn tips etc.*
I'm sorry for having to bring you the bad news but as were are dependant on the manufacturer for the supply of several critical parts, this is has become the situation. Should you encounter a used but working Kontrapunkt B, we can help you with upgrade options as well as refreshing in terms of retip, new damper etc.**"
So if your KB is intact then you will be ok, unfortunately mine is a no go . However it has saved me some cash and he has confirmed that he can retip my Yatra when needed [emoji846]
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
cheers for the info you two,so the vienna upgrade still retains the ruby cantilever in that case,i did wonder.
Bigman80
04-07-2019, 17:59
cheers for the info you two,so the vienna upgrade still retains the ruby cantilever in that case,i did wonder.Yes, the Vienna has the Ruby cantilever too.
No worries [emoji846] Looks like id have to send mine back to ortofon to get a new engine etc for about £800 if I wanted to get it working again. Pricey but would be a new cart in the old body basically.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
well its packed up and off tomorrow :eek:
in the meantime ive just bought a pair of nos brimar yellow t pre amp tubes to keep me entertained.
i also should get my arse into gear and start the plinth!
Picked up a Kb to tide me over whilst the Cadenza Bronze was getting a sapphire cantilever and Paratrace with Wyndham... It returns tomorrow and I was going to move the Kb on but I will investigate other options from what I've read here... Food for thought and all that...
Jah Guide
mine has arrived at holistic audio,the report is this,
The tip does need to be replaced, the suspension is in working order (no direct need for replacement), there are quite a few metal-particles that are magnetically 'sucked' into the front poleplate opening and they all need to be manually removed as they can interfere with the bobine (coil assembly).
The alignment of the generator is slightly off so that needs to be re-aligned.
and the best bit is i thought it sounded good in that condition,im in for a treat when it comes back!
paulf-2007
11-07-2019, 18:09
sorry mark i should have let you know.
regarding arm boards and plinths is it better to have the armboard of a different damping factor,ie to act as a barrier for any vibration coming from the motor and flowing into the plinth? my limited knowledge says yes.
Vibration from the motor? Best bin it then:)
RobbieGong
11-07-2019, 18:38
Vibration from the motor? Best bin it then:)
:lol:
DiveDeepDog
11-07-2019, 19:06
I've been using noisy/rumbling decks for a while (Garrard's/Lenco's) the Sony TTS8000 (and SP10) are a different league altogether. Even though I've gone to extraordinary lengths with the plinth build (Beech multiplex + Bentonite resin) I reckon you put put TTS in a cardboard box and still get less motor noise than the average Garrard !:lol:
I've been using noisy/rumbling decks for a while (Garrard's/Lenco's) the Sony TTS8000 (and SP10) are a different league altogether. Even though I've gone to extraordinary lengths with the plinth build (Beech multiplex + Bentonite resin) I reckon you put put TTS in a cardboard box and still get less motor noise than the average Garrard !:lol:
You pretty much summarise my thoughts when I heard your own Garrard - welcome in to the light.
DiveDeepDog
11-07-2019, 19:36
You pretty much summarise my thoughts when I heard your own Garrard - welcome in to the light.
The Light got switched on with the Paradise, I'm still stuck to Garrard's :sofa::lol:
Hi mark, I’m going to have to build my plinth soon, was the resin/ bentonite clay mix worth it?
DiveDeepDog
12-07-2019, 11:10
I've not heard the Sony in anything else so I've no other reference. The point I'm (failing?) trying to make is they're very different to the Garrard/Lenco plinths where energy from the motor/bearing needs to be dealt with and isolated from.
These DD's (I've recent experience with SP10 too) are silent, barely a blip on switch on with seismic app or stethoscope, so the tuning/sound signature is impacted by what the arm sits on. I've been using Corian for years now, started off with little armboards, but my signature is now solid top with single arm hole, isolated from the motor unit with layer of silicone. Sounds right to me but my ears aren't golden :lol:
Having said all that, the best Garrard plinth I've built was Beech multiplex/Corian, Panzer has been too close to slate for my tastes, although its about time I revisited those plinths as the system is ever evolving.
If I ever shift a 301 I have f/s I'll build a resin Garrard plinth, but I'm busting at the seams, one out , one in ATM !
DiveDeepDog
12-07-2019, 13:55
And despite all the advice about single arm holes, between myself and Spider we've made a system to use SME spacer to fit Linn geometry arm. I'll make another for Rega, although the TTS/Artemiz combo didn't gel.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48265010606_634ce5073f_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gx1N8h)IMG_5560 (https://flic.kr/p/2gx1N8h) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
No worries [emoji846] Looks like id have to send mine back to ortofon to get a new engine etc for about £800 if I wanted to get it working again. Pricey but would be a new cart in the old body basically.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Not a new cart in an old body - just a new cart - the ‘trade in’ is actually just an outright discount.
The role/purpose/benefit of bentonite in resin entirely escapes me. The primary advantage of bentonite is its ability to absorb large quantities of water - though not when it is trapped in resin. It’s other quality is that it is a fine particulate - but then so are lots of materials.... Bentonite in resin serves no purpose I am aware of!
Not a new cart in an old body - just a new cart - the ‘trade in’ is actually just an outright discount.hi I'm talking about a repair service rather than a trade in for a new cart. You can't get a new KB so if you want one repaired the KB repair service offers the following in the existing body.
"Cartridge repair process
2.1. Upon receipt we open the defective cartridge, detach the motor unit from the body, scrap off all glue etc.
2.2. A new motor will be installed. A new diamond and cantilever will be mounted. Repaired cartridge is in fact a new product with a new motor.
2.3. Finally the cartridge will be cleaned and tested.
2.4.*The test results will be provided along the repaired cartridge.
*"
But you can trade in for a new cart from the existing range probably under the trade in scheme? [emoji846]
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
The role/purpose/benefit of bentonite in resin entirely escapes me. The primary advantage of bentonite is its ability to absorb large quantities of water - though not when it is trapped in resin. It’s other quality is that it is a fine particulate - but then so are lots of materials.... Bentonite in resin serves no purpose I am aware of!
I believe for this purpose it’s used in pellet sizes and mixed in with the resin?
DiveDeepDog
13-07-2019, 11:57
Re Bentonite, there was a lot of research in the Lenco arena, close to a decade ago. The only commercially available product I know of are BobC’s Garrard plinths, I think they’re quite successful?!
For me I had a void to fill, and am the inquiring type. It won’t be my only effort ����
my ortofon KB has arrived back from holistic audio :carrot: i will be fitting it at the weekend!
so far im very impressed with the service and turn around.
RobbieGong
23-07-2019, 16:09
Kilian Bakker / Holistic Audio are top draw in my experience too Jamie :thumbsup:
I'm watching this space.
Jaw hit the floor time acomming I thinks.
i set up the newly tipped and vienna upgraded kb today,early days to tell,i think the difference is subtle so far but im also running in a new tonearm cable .....
https://i.postimg.cc/DwWgPYX7/IMG-3532.jpg
Bigman80
27-07-2019, 18:59
i set up the newly tipped and vienna upgraded kb today,early days to tell,i think the difference is subtle so far but im also running in a new tonearm cable .....
https://i.postimg.cc/DwWgPYX7/IMG-3532.jpgSo you did go for the Vienna upgrade then? Outstanding
It won't be a total departure from the sound, better placement of instruments, better clarity
if my suspicions are correct.
a bit more listening and setting up tonight,well oliver i can totally get the' hear the guitar body' comment you made a few weeks ago' oh yes its there!
i still need to dial in 100% alignment and tracking weight but so far the upgrade is proving worth while. :cool:
Bigman80
29-07-2019, 20:15
a bit more listening and setting up tonight,well oliver i can totally get the' hear the guitar body' comment you made a few weeks ago' oh yes its there!
i still need to dial in 100% alignment and tracking weight but so far the upgrade is proving worth while. :cool:Ah, glad i don't talk total bollocks all the time lol
Once you dial it in, i doubt you'll ever look for another cartridge because IMO, it's as close to perfect as you'll get now. Obviously, the Vienna is perfect [emoji6].
Yup, the Vienna mods are definitely gonna pass me by too. Just no funds to get it done.
I'll just have to live vicariously through you and Angus lol
a few more hours down the road and the detail is fantastic,it just lacks a touch of top end airyness and sparkle,i hope this is displayed after some more hours :rolleyes:
Bigman80
01-08-2019, 18:22
a few more hours down the road and the detail is fantastic,it just lacks a touch of top end airyness and sparkle,i hope this is displayed after some more hours :rolleyes:Might be your cables :D
Lol, couldnt help it. Lol.
Bigman80
01-08-2019, 18:44
ouch!:DLmao, you know I'm joking.
yep that very good.
:thumbsup:
Jamie,
Did I read you are rebuilding your plinth for the TTS? Give me a shout if you need anything, cnc files etc..
KR,
Paul
Thanks, I’m doing it the hard way with router templates. What files do you have?
The ones on vinyl engine are mine, and have a cnc set up for the cutout. What type of plinth are you thinking of Jamie?
hi,i made my router template for the cutout by following the original one on the plinth,im using 25mm panzerholz which is the ideal thickness for damping etc,veneered in cocobolo,i really need to start this!
RobbieGong
16-08-2019, 21:45
hi,i made my router template for the cutout by following the original one on the plinth,im using 25mm panzerholz which is the ideal thickness for damping etc,veneered in cocobolo,i really need to start this!
Cocobolo is such a beautiful, exotic and rare wood. Also pretty expensive due to its rarity :eek:
Was very tempted to try go cocobolo veneer over the Panzerholz too but in the end I felt I really didnt need to.
Not only the cost but it would have stood out too much and not blended in with my speakers, forthcoming rack and the rest of my kit the way the natural Panzer' will.
Looking forward to seeing yours when it's done though Jamie which I reckon will be gorgeous :)
its just a personal taste thing with me,whilst panzerholz has great damping properties it lacks any aesthetic quality imo.
beech veneer even before its rammed full of resin just isn't higly figured. the only solution is to paint it black or use veneer.
Jamie,
Certainly worth improving it visually for sure, I have many unusual veneers / burrs etc if you dont have yours yet..
Cutout pdf attached for you..
26518
Bigman80
17-08-2019, 11:01
Cocobolo is such a beautiful, exotic and rare wood. Also pretty expensive due to its rarity :eek:
Was very tempted to try go cocobolo veneer over the Panzerholz too but in the end I felt I really didnt need to.
Not only the cost but it would have stood out too much and not blended in with my speakers, forthcoming rack and the rest of my kit the way the natural Panzer' will.
Looking forward to seeing yours when it's done though Jamie which I reckon will be gorgeous :)Panzerholtz plinth?
Strange, I've never seen one on a 1210 and I believe you sold that,
So what you got Robbie!
RobbieGong
17-08-2019, 11:22
Panzerholtz plinth?
Strange, I've never seen one on a 1210 and I believe you sold that,
So what you got Robbie!
Had to join the club Oli and go SP10 MK2 for a number of reasons....
A no brainer really in the end. I've had an admiration and curiosity for years which eventually turned into a big hankering, again for a number of reasons, hence :)
Bigman80
17-08-2019, 11:44
Had to join the club Oli and go SP10 MK2 for a number of reasons....
A no brainer really in the end. I've had an admiration and curiosity for years which eventually turned into a big hankering, again for a number of reasons, hence :)[emoji23][emoji23] And you kept it quiet!!!
Well, welcome to the club.
How are you finding it? PMAT1010 arm?
RobbieGong
17-08-2019, 11:48
[emoji23][emoji23] And you kept it quiet!!!
Well, welcome to the club.
How are you finding it? PMAT1010 arm?
Hi Oli, I'll pm, respectfully dont want to divert too much / gate crash Jamies TTS 8000 thread.
Bigman80
17-08-2019, 11:49
Hi Oli, I'll pm, respectfully dont want to divert too much from Jamies TTS 8000 thread.Oh, yes. Apologies all.
Hi Oli, I'll pm, respectfully dont want to divert too much / gate crash Jamies TTS 8000 thread.
thats ok robbie feel free :)
Full service and recap. Yes!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190824/7b84b407dd2cf66aed0f645f19742150.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190824/31cbe35b98393d59533347e06d2bb2be.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190824/f0946c3551348802c4bf810efdd4045f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190824/0515ec296d5eae28013836fef1119508.jpg
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
And back in place.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190824/071e5d256ab6a44ac4596eafaae750bf.jpg
cool! did it need a recap or was it just preventive?
All preventative from my perspective but the engineer said the caps measured quite a lot out of spec. I think it's about 30 years old so, like my other gear, I chose to have it serviced as I will not improve on it with my budget.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Nonnegativ
24-08-2019, 18:13
Good decision - and it looks good ! I came to to same conclusion and send one of my TTS-8000's to "good old hifi" in Berlin where it is currently being refurbished.
I consider the TTS-8000 my final turntable, and don't want sleepless nights over its old caps etc.
the guy that both myself and beobloke use for tt repairs hates changing capacitors unless they have failed,he sights the lifespan of new caps (low) compared to the old ones (high),
make of that what you will but as adam will testify the guy knows his stuff.
personally im on the fence with this view.
I can understand that perspective. Nearly all my vintage equipment has been serviced and recapped by the engineer I use and all of it, bar none, has been faultless for several years afterwards. I have no intention of selling the Sony, it is the best I have had, so if it gives me many years of fault free service I will be delighted.
DiveDeepDog
24-08-2019, 20:42
My TTS was NOS, would you consider it safe from needing work?
paulf-2007
24-08-2019, 22:02
the guy that both myself and beobloke use for tt repairs hates changing capacitors unless they have failed,he sights the lifespan of new caps (low) compared to the old ones (high),
make of that what you will but as adam will testify the guy knows his stuff.
personally im on the fence with this view.
The fella I use for repairs didn't see any need to change the caps on my denon DP80 when he repaired the strobe. He gave them a visual inspection and said better to leave well alone
Nonnegativ
24-08-2019, 22:12
QUOTE=DiveDeepDog;1116311]My TTS was NOS, would you consider it safe from needing work?[/QUOTE]
Well...There are various views about that..
I would at least check the grease in the bearing which is reported to degrade. On both my TTS-8000 very little grease was left after 30 years.
Amp8.com has some nice pics of their restoration af a TTS-8000:
http://www.amp8.com/amp-etc/record/sony/tts8000.htm
i didnt know grease was used for the spindle,i wonder what spec?
I have a recent history with Lenco's, so have a reasonable knowledge of the importance of overhauling a bearing, as a result of such a support to carry out such works, the Lenco Bearings have ended up with a host of alternative parts to be used, these bearings are from a design, that can be improved upon, whether it be a tighter tolerance DIY added part, a part made available from a additional machining operation, or a complete new bearing.
A unwanted noise/vibration can be received at the Stylus from a bearing,
the amount will usually increase when the bearing is not pristine.
Like all mechanical interfaces between two metals, following any treatment of the metal surfaces, a lubricant is the usual simple choice to control unwanted wear and maintain the design tolerances.
Lubricants have a limit to their life, so a service, i.e Lubricant Exchange will be the minimum requirement, as and when felt required from monitoring usage. The longer a Lubricant is left unchanged whether being used or at rest, the more the requirement to replace it with a up to date material, that will meet the requirements set out at the time of design.
A discussed case with the Lenco Bearing is the longevity of a Thrust Pad,
a part that can show wear relatively early in its service, there will be a time when a thrust pad is exchanged, that can become part of a periodical routine, at a time of changing a thrust pad, a exchange of Lubricant will take place as well.
I am not aware of any other TT that receives this type of attention on the Bearing.
A investigation into how to clean out and exchange oil/grease in a bearing is a worthy exercise, especially on any vintage TT that is in use.
There is usually a reported noticeable audible change, when a bearing is stripped cleaned and serviced, as well as the obvious extended time of platter being able to free spin.
If there are any free parts in the Bearing Make Up, that are showing signs of wear, then identifying if a replacement part is available, is worth the effort.
A obvious change to a free spinning platter will not be so identifiable on a DD TT, but the reassurance that the bearing is serviced, will be valuable.
There are up to date oil/grease technologies, it is worth looking into the types other vintage TT's have been using on their bearing overhauls, to check for compatibility with another bearing design.
very interesting john,in contrast an example would be the bearing on a pioneer pl-590 which i owned,the manual states that no lubricant is needed,the bearing in question was an oillite bearing i believe.
now we tt chaps,including myself think that after 30years it must need oiling despite the designers/makers claims,the question is what do we use? or do we head what they state and leave it alone?
again in the case of the sony tts-8000 nothing is mentioned in the service manual about oil,hence why i found the above comment about grease interesting.
Nonnegativ
25-08-2019, 08:44
very interesting john,in contrast an example would be the bearing on a pioneer pl-590 which i owned,the manual states that no lubricant is needed,the bearing in question was an oillite bearing i believe.
now we tt chaps,including myself think that after 30years it must need oiling despite the designers/makers claims,the question is what do we use? or do we head what they state and leave it alone?
again in the case of the sony tts-8000 nothing is mentioned in the service manual about oil,hence why i found the above comment about grease interesting.
It is easy to check the bearing on the TTS-8000 and see if any lubricant is left: Remove topplatter, unscrew small topplate and after removal of it - pull up the bearing by lifting the spindle.
And I know that all of us knows, but anyway: Since the topplatter on a DD is part of the drive, never start up the tt again without the topplate back in place.
Nonnegativ
25-08-2019, 10:14
For the record: I mailed Sony in the distant hope that they have some info about which lubricant was originally used on the bearing of the TTS-8000. I know its a long shot, but will pass their response on.
Others have discussed the oil in bearings of Sony Tables, but I can't find one which states which oil was used on the TTS-8000:
https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/90938-bearing-maintenance-on-a-dd-turntable/
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/which-oil-for-sony-ps-2250-ol-2k-type.151039/
Jamie: I hope is ok to post in your thread ?
thanks for the links,its absolutley fine,post away,all info,comments welcome :)
DiveDeepDog
25-08-2019, 10:34
The issue for me is what to use? Looks like I can pull the spindle out fairly easily, but in that process I'll dislodge/wipe off lubricant thats there.
Without knowing what to replace it with I'll leave mine alone, it spins freely.
Re: Lenco's John, they were far more price constrained than the TT's were talking about. They're a 50's domestic design and the fundamentals didn't alter (L59 drive train can be swapped for L78 20+ years apart) Compare to Garrard and Thorens 124 its soon apparent which is engineered for professionals.
However, the design concept is good enough to be improved hence the flourish of bearings/top plates ect.
*The Lenco bearing looses oil, I suspect the Sony is better sealed?
is it oil or grease though?
DiveDeepDog
25-08-2019, 14:13
is it oil or grease though?
Lenco's have grease to hold the ball in place, then oil to lubricate.
Sorry if you meant the Sony, now I've seen the pics how easy it is to remove, I'm itching to have a look see :-)
if yours is nos,you might be doing us a big favour :cool:
DiveDeepDog
26-08-2019, 11:07
It's got the better of me, and I've had a look. Perhaps a good thing as its as dry as the Sahara.
Whatever was in there has turned to paste.
Nice bearing though, almost mirror polished spindle (no wear) and what looks like bronze/oil-lite bushes.
I've cleaned the gunk and smeared couple of drops of fully synthetic on the spindle. Probably wrong as there'll be additives, but the best to hand.
Looks like investigation and monitoring will be needed.
There's a spring loaded mechanism on the black plate, my guess its to keep dust out. It needs positioning while the motors turning otherwise it introduces noise.
DiveDeepDog
26-08-2019, 11:16
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48622953733_f4b2fea4e7_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h5Dm9v)IMG_5707 (https://flic.kr/p/2h5Dm9v) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48623298401_4d827b167c_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h5F7B4)IMG_5704 (https://flic.kr/p/2h5F7B4) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
I installed SME4 and Koetsu Rosewood Sig (Goldring rebuild) on Mickey's 301, seemed rude not to put my own the TTS. Less than 100 hours on the carts.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48498744791_d9219a8b6d_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gTEKa2)IMG_5659 (https://flic.kr/p/2gTEKa2) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
wow,super clean,in my book any oil is better than nothing.thanks for posting the pics :cool:
Nonnegativ
26-08-2019, 12:23
Excellent !!!
I recieved word from Sony regarding my question about what lubricant was used in the bearing of the TTS-8000. As expected they could not provide any information on my "Senior Unit"..
you will get some noise from that sprung clip as the spring forces the plastic ring onto a boss on the spindle,when i say you get some noise im taking using a mechanics stethoscope lol too anal i know!
Excellent Mark
As I see there are Oil-lites that look like they are seated into the Bearing Housing, I am feeling a similar lubricant as used on another Oil-lite design should suffice, as there are no flutes milled into the Oil-lite bush, it is looking like a Oil Bearing, as the flute will usually allow grease to come into contact with the spindle.
The 'Quantity' of lubricant will be hit and miss, so I think a slight
overfill ? and have a hypodermic needle on standby to draw any excess lubricant that escapes.
I was kind of hoping the Oil-Lites were live, as these are a quick fix solution to a design, and a off the shelf part with known variations in their production tolerances.
I know the Oil-Lites are reasonably cheap to purchase as a batch, and measuring to select a pair that will be better suited to the bearing housing and spindle is achievable, resulting in a smidgeon more mechanical control through tightening up the tolerances.
No room for a thrust pad down in the depths to further protect the housing from any unwanted wear ?
It is these little things that are reported to have a audible difference.
Or am I just going all Lenco on a TTS :doh:
lol yep you are. they dont need over filling imo,just a smear of oil,compairing them to lenco's is like oil or water.
you see this was my point earlier,an oil lite bearing is designed to not need oil,so why do you feel the need to,'over fill it' as you say with oil?
DiveDeepDog
26-08-2019, 14:45
I'm not knocking Lenco's, (I am :lol:) but they're not SOTA, never been near. L59 is a good design but subsequent decks were built to reduce costs. I'm throwing a blanket out there, but the 59 chassis is much stiffer than a75/8, the idler wheels got better, but thats about it.
It's not that I dislike them, they can be great, but it takes work and a lot of £££. Here's one I made earlier, there's nothing original Lenco apart from the idler arm and wheel !
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48624326586_c5c6dfded6_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h5Lofo)IMG_5692 (https://flic.kr/p/2h5Lofo) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
Back to the TTS, I put a couple of drops on the spindle and around the ball-end. I'll keep an eye on it.
Search has suggested SAE30, lawn mower oil...
i agree,im using compressor oil,sae30
I'm not trying to scupper anything, or am I even trying to present myself as a authority on the subject.
It seems to be a common consensus, that a unfaltering performance of a TT Bearing is one of the fundamental contributors to a TT delivering a outstanding performance.
I have just got a lot of reading under my belt on Lenco Bearings, as well as a friend with a man cave and a Stethoscope, with plenty of dismantled and reassembled bearing trials behind him, Lenco's, Garrard and TD160 are ones I know about, there are a couple of DD's in the room, but I have no knowledge of these being worked on.
I do know of bearings that are worked on, receive a Oil-Lite Bush assessment, and a exchange if believed required, before and after stethoscope analysis, and this analysis
has extended across different lubricants.
Whether every bearing worked on gets a replacement Oil-Lite, or if the design the known of bearings even uses a Oil-Lite, is not something I am not privy to, my main discussion on bearing parts has been limited to Lenco's.
As my PTP has a up to date bearing version, and my SP10 has been overhauled by Angus, I have not concerned myself with the DIY lubrication practical exercise, just the theories available through reading on other forums.
There is a lubricant that has been selected by my friend, that I have been informed has a effect on the
' what ever is listened to on a stethoscope ' that is deemed a near perfect end result, in the view from the man cave.
I am not privy to the type, another secret not to leave the man cave, but have been informed my Lenco Bearings should be passed on to receive the treatment.
I will one day take the PTP and GL75 to the man cave.
Hypodermics are known to be used when dealing with lubricant for bearings, my idea was based on that, as it a tool that is chosen by others who fettle with bearing lube.
I have been to my Linn Axis, GL75, PTP Solid 9 and SP10 and applied force by hand to the spindle, their feels to me, like no movement is taking place at all side to side, and definitely no audible knocking.
My concern with Oil-Lite inserts in a bearing housing is that these are known to have different tolerances and are not the perfect match for a design demanding tight tolerances.
If parts are not specifically selected for their match, a lateral or side to side movement can be felt when hand pressure is applied to a spindle.
This movement can be detected on the bearing assembly to the touch, and depending on how excessive, can be picked up as a audible knocking.
This movement and audible knocking, is potentially the end product of a not carefully matched Oil-Lite for the Housing/Spindle, and further increased by the Spindle being able to rotate in a concentric motion, causing a wear pattern on the Oil-Lite Bush, that allows for a further side to side movement, that is now identifiable with a movement that is audible.
This is a condition found on certain Lenco bearings that is overcome through the exchanging of the Oil-Lite Bushes, as stated before this post, it can be further improved, as discussed on Lenco Heaven, by buying in a batch of Oil-Lite Bushes and selecting a pair that has the closest measurement that is best for the Housing/Spindle arrangement through measuring the two parts to be interfaced by the Oil-Lite.
I know a few individuals, and read up on the works done by others, who have carried out the work to overcome the interface issues on a Lenco Bearing have reported back on the improvements.
As the TTS bearing does not have a Fluted cut on the inner face of the Oil-Lite Bush or a Thrust Pad and Ball, I don't think Grease is used in the assembly.
The Oil-Lite Bushes seem similar in their production and arrangement on a TTS as the Lenco so the TTS seems to be requiring oil.
I would have to enquire at the man cave, as well as revisit my readings again on the amounts of oil used by different individuals at the time of a rebuild on Lenco Bearing, to see if a direction offered was accepted by a TTS owner.
I hope this change in the direction of the TTS thread brings some valuable direction, as a vintage bearing on a TTS is as rare as the TT itself, so anything that can be done that offers a reassurance that the condition is preserved and the life cycle is extended, especially if a maintenance ritual is the outcome will hopefully be seen as a good practice.
yep all good info thanks john,the trouble is due to its rarity who is going to risk removing the bearing or how? if someone did it would be best to have the spindle machined as well as that would be worn/matched to the old bearing would it not?
on the other hand if i had a completely shagged one bought for peanuts id give it a go,i presume it just presses out?
Nonnegativ
26-08-2019, 16:28
...Or am I just going all Lenco on a TTS :doh:
Well - I find it fascinating. Great observations from the Lenco world blended with nerdy theories.
Damm...I love turntables :)
I reckon we all know a man who would laugh in the face of such a challenge, the type of man who takes a AT-1010 Tonearm by the Short and Curlies and Breathes ingenuity all over it.
The Spindle as far as I know, will have had a surface treatment that will make it extremely hard, the standard of finish will not be known, I suppose that is IP for the Company, Not even Sien, who makes bearing on Lenco Heaven would divulge that when requested, The case hardened metal will come into contact with a sacrificial material such as Oil-Lite, that would usually be the required replacement part at the time of a service, if wear was identified.
Time to search for a Bush Extractor, and I don't mean I am searching out an Adonis from somewhere.
DiveDeepDog
26-08-2019, 17:51
Bearings an interesting subject, I've always prefered Garrard's over Lenco's going back so far I couldn't afford them and built a belt drive 'project'. I preferred the Garrard platter and bearing over the Lenco. It'd be interesting to compare examples with the same SPH bearing?
The issue with the TTS bearing is it can't be lubed while the spindles in place, I would suggest it was put together at the factory and expected to last and be lubricated for the life of the TT?
May be interesting to see some of the other TTS's to see if there's any wear?
As for fit, even dry it took some pulling and came out with a pop.
Garrard's and Lenco's have a felt washer to keep the top lubed (also Garrard & 124 motors have felt reservoirs) tech had moved on, and if we accept the car/bike analogy Japanese manufacturing was way ahead of ours in the late 70's.
Not sure if it's the heat, but I'm enjoying the TTS far more than I have previously, it's singing. I've had moments of indifference. Maybe it did need some oil??
As we've both mentioned SPH, I'm not convinced they're hardened at all. I've polished the pair I've had quite easily.
*I'm no expert either, but they 'work' much easier than the Garrard spindle which is known to be hardened.
It looks like the only place with the searches I am doing at present, to get extensive discussion on TT Bearings is Lenco Heaven, there are a few different Brands Bearings discussed on there.
I have read up on run dry Sintered / Oilite Bushes, I believe we are in a criteria of usage as a Sewing Machine or Low Work rate,
and Singer Sewing Machine Oil, seems to be a viscosity that will be suitable, I have also read up on different formulas to produce DIY oils for a Bearing, this formula can be made to suit various work rates for a bearing.
A viewpoint that has been made on a forum discussing Sintered / Oilite Parts, is that if they end up running dry, then the fine dust metal particle produced, will seal the pores in the Oilite, resulting in any of the impregnated Lubricant being trapped, and the Oilite will be more akin to a Phosphur Bronze part in how it is functioning.
I don't know of the accuracy of this statement, but in the case of a very rare bearing that is appearing to be dry, it seems prudent to find away to introduce lubricant, as the dry environment for the spindle may have already left the Oilite in a condition as outlined above.
The other question is,
Is the Bush seen in the Housing on the TTS, Oilite or Phosphur Bronze ?
I have done work on bearings. Some years ago, when in discussion with a manufacturer of Oilite bushes, I was told that they were not suitable for use in a situation where the surface velocity was low - as is the case with a turntable main bearing. The reason is that the oil impregnated into the Oilite is drawn to the surface by heat and that heat is generated by the friction of the bearing shaft turning in the bushes. If there is insufficient speed to the turning shaft then there is insufficient friction and so little heat and so no oil is drawn to the surface of the Oilite.
There is a lot of misinformation, or muddled thinking, in the world of DIY turntable bearings. I think this is largely because the people involved tend to draw direct parallels between bearing systems that are not actually representative. In addition, it is my experience that people who describe themselves as engineers in audio often mean they have worked in engineering, but they aren’t actually trained in the theory of mechanical engineering. This means they tend to directly transfer their experience of bearing structures used in cars and lathes to those of turntables. Unfortunately, a turntable bearing has very little in common with those found in cars or lathes.
One common misconception is that very tight tolerances are essential. Whilst it seems obvious that precision parts should be closely matched it fails to take into account the relevance of lubrication and, specifically, the viscosity of that lubrication. If you have very closely matched components you need thin oil and as the tolerance gap increases you need increasingly viscous oil. In addition, most turntable bearings use dissimilar metals, or plastics, for the bearing shaft and bushing. This means that temperature variations will unevenly alter the tolerance gap between the bearing parts. If they are a very fine fit this can mean that seizure is possible or that friction levels vary (increase) considerably. For this reason some bearings are actively temperature controlled. The type of bearing SME use is interesting as the main shaft is tapered. This means that as the thrust pad is adjusted the gap between the bearing surfaces can be adjusted. Brinkmann use heated bearings and Spiral Groove use the same material for shaft and journal so they expand and contract at the same rate.
willbewill
27-08-2019, 11:52
Great post, food for thought, thanks
Yep top man, cheers mark, very informative.
DiveDeepDog
27-08-2019, 19:00
Re: the TTS, looks like a sintered bush (?) it's more red than the outer yellow, I'm no metal expert though.
Garrard's, the only time I've seen damage was with sewing machine oil, thankfully I experiment with a dodgy spare.
Interestingly, the 4HF bearing uses a captive ball on a mica (?) thrust plate, similar to the TTS, Thorens 124(+ more I've not seen) yet they chose sintered bronze pads for the 3/401. Maybe for longevity, although there's plenty of 4HF's about ?
We're guessing though and lack the decades of knowledge they amassed selling thousands of TT's.
loheswaran
28-08-2019, 21:26
I need to put together a TTS8000 plinth. I would love to get the TB2000 but they are rare as hens teeth.
As such hat is the closest material to Sony Bulk Moulding Compound - I think it may be very similar to Corian. I know that I can get my hands on a lead plinth from Top Class Audio, but I like the idea of the TB 2000 style plinth - Im sure Sony knew hat they were doing.
On another note mine TTS did not come it the original mat :doh: I have a sneaky suspicion that the Cartridgeman mat may be quite similar - anyone tried it out?
I need to put together a TTS8000 plinth. I would love to get the TB2000 but they are rare as hens teeth.
As such hat is the closest material to Sony Bulk Moulding Compound - I think it may be very similar to Corian. I know that I can get my hands on a lead plinth from Top Class Audio, but I like the idea of the TB 2000 style plinth - Im sure Sony knew hat they were doing.
On another note mine TTS did not come it the original mat :doh: I have a sneaky suspicion that the Cartridgeman mat may be quite similar - anyone tried it out?The original mat is rare. I have one but, like most, the oil in the mat shifts centrifrugally to the perimeter over decades and creates a warped effect.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Nonnegativ
29-08-2019, 08:31
I need to put together a TTS8000 plinth. I would love to get the TB2000 but they are rare as hens teeth.
As such hat is the closest material to Sony Bulk Moulding Compound - I think it may be very similar to Corian. I know that I can get my hands on a lead plinth from Top Class Audio, but I like the idea of the TB 2000 style plinth - Im sure Sony knew hat they were doing.
On another note mine TTS did not come it the original mat :doh: I have a sneaky suspicion that the Cartridgeman mat may be quite similar - anyone tried it out?
Regarding the TB-2000 plinth: They do come up for sale in Japan from time to time, but almost always together with a TTS-8000 which means the weight surpasses 40 kg. The weight is a problem since japanese post will handle packages with a limit of up to 20 kg. When I bought my TB-2000 in Japan I had to pursuade the packaging company to dismantle the TTS-8000 from the Plinth and ship them seperately. Offcourse the whole exercise came with an extra (premium) price.
As mentioned on another forum: The TTS-8000 in its TB-2000 plinth is like a holy grail for me so I can therefore justify (to myself) the amount paid for the purchase, packaging, shipping, vat and customs. The experience did put a financial hold on projects for a while afterwards, though. Compared to the one for sale in Germany it was still a bargain ;-)
Whether the TB-2000 plinth has any acoustical advantages over others plinths I really don't know. I just admire the craftmansship and history behind the product.
There is a TB-2000 for sale together with a TTS-8000 in Japan right now. Local pickup only - have you ever been to Japan ? ;-)
Regarding the Sony OL-2K mat: I have tried the Mitchell Gyromat, Transfi Reso-Mat, and Funk Acromat on the TTS-8000. The original OL-2K mat surpasses them all - closest came the Acromat.
I am a bit reluctant to try out Tenuto etc. due to the extra weight on the bearing etc., but maybe others have some experience on this.
I think the extra weight would only affect the delrin pad which can be replaced if needed, that’s my view but I could be wrong.
DiveDeepDog
29-08-2019, 17:37
I'm happy with acromat on mine and having seen the bearing the heavy copper one can stay elsewhere. I've not seen any evidence of getting the bearing out, let alone replacing the thrust pad.
me neither,i was thinking a long the lines of dropping another thrust pad on top if needed,obviously dependant on how much it would raise the platter and if that would be an issue,your getting me paranoid about using my tenuto now :eek:
DiveDeepDog
29-08-2019, 18:18
The other Sony models share the same platter (6750/8750) There must've been valid reasons for using comparatively lightweight platter with powerful motor? The SP10 is a contemporary and felt much heavier (off to check TVK).
All I can say is put a brush on a record and there isn't a tt I've known that corrects for speed the moment the load changes. I've no way of measuring, but it feels more powerful than my 301 with the advantage of self measurement and maintaining speed.
I suppose the elephant in the room is the PS-x9, apparently built like a brick sh1t house.
* TVK quote 3kg for SP10 mk2 platter, my TTS is 1.58kg. I guess I need to weigh the sub-chassis too as thats part of the moving mass too?
Bigman80
29-08-2019, 19:26
The other Sony models share the same platter (6750/8750) There must've been valid reasons for using comparatively lightweight platter with powerful motor? The SP10 is a contemporary and felt much heavier (off to check TVK).
All I can say is put a brush on a record and there isn't a tt I've known that corrects for speed the moment the load changes. I've no way of measuring, but it feels more powerful than my 301 with the advantage of self measurement and maintaining speed.
I suppose the elephant in the room is the PS-x9, apparently built like a brick sh1t house.
* TVK quote 3kg for SP10 mk2 platter, my TTS is 1.58kg. I guess I need to weigh the sub-chassis too as thats part of the moving mass too?The reason Sony made the same platter for the TTS8000, 6750 AND 8750, was so they could use one design on three TTs.
I will try and find the history but it could be on TVK.
As for TTs that adjust speed instantaneously with a brush, the SP10 MK2 does this. It's like you were never there.
Also stops and starts immediately and is up to the correct speed inside one revolution. Probably less TBH, Even with a 5kg Tenuto on it.
Idlewithnodrive
29-08-2019, 20:05
The reason Sony made the same platter for the TTS8000, 6750 AND 8750, was so they could use one design on three TTs.
I will try and find the history but it could be on TVK.
As for TTs that adjust speed instantaneously with a brush, the SP10 MK2 does this. It's like you were never there.
Also stops and starts immediately and is up to the correct speed inside one revolution. Probably less TBH, Even with a 5kg Tenuto on it.
I can confirm this. No discernible slowdown when using a record brush.
I have unboxed a TTS 8000, and checked the spindle for Side to Side Play, I have detected, what I will refer to zs a excessive movement, one that I am not detecting in the other TT's I have.
I don't know anything about the bearings engineered design or how much side to side movement there should be in a unused bearing, so I will not pretend that I have any ideas for what engineered tolerances there should be.
As a result of receiving a few guidelines on how to remove a Bush from a encapsulated bearing housing, I sourced a tool that I feel can be used to carry out one of the methods in a controlled manner.
The method I intend on using will only be attempted after I have sought further advices, but as it seems at present to not put any parts at a real risk, if set up properly, I will learn as much on the operation and any unknown to me risks, that I can.
With the stimulation of a method to remove a Bush that I could comprehend, I was motivated to unpack the TTS 8000, and see how secure the spindle felt in the housing.
The amount of movement I have felt does not make me feel that the Spindle is seated as well as I feel it should be, it is not in keeping with the way I have come to understand the intentions of others, that I know that have worked on "improving" bearings.
With the concerns felt about the amount of side to side movement, and the audible noise that can be detected when checking for movement from the spindle hitting the side walls of the housing, I got brave and had a attempt at what Mark did, and successfully removed the Spindle from the housing, and similar to Marks discovery, my one was very dry. The spindle did not have a amount of lubricant that could leave a residual on my fingers.
I am not at rest with this as a find, and intend on making changes to this situation, I feel a correct lubrication, will be a preventative exercise.
I can see into the Housing Shaft and there is a low level Bush, seated down in the bottom, that does not touch the base, there is a non metallic liner sleeve that sits above the lowest bush, with what feels like a tiny gap between the two components. The non metallic sleeve liner is of a length that it sits directly under the bush seen at the top of the shaft, there feels like there is tiny space between the top of the non metallic liner and the bottom of the high level bush.
The internal diameter of the Bushes are slightly smaller than the internal diameter of the non metallic sleeve.
I am assuming the gaps created between the Bushes and Sleeve are to allow a Lubricant to travel as well as expand.
Rightly or wrongly, I intend to attempt to tighten up the tolerances between the spindle and bushes, by exchanging them. So I will pursue the investigation of the supplied method to remove the bushes, the sleeve will be removed temporarily as well.
On the bottom of the spindle there is a half round nipple machined as part of spindles production onto the bottom face of the spindle.
This acts a the low friction rotation point, it is not easy to make out, but there seems to be a abrasive wear in the bottom of the housing on the base, again due to the unpolished appearance of the wear, this looks like it could be having a unwanted effect on the operation.
Again rightly or wrongly, I will be looking into the idea I have of placing a 0.5mm POM thrust pad in the base of bearing housing as a preventative measure to protect the housing,as well as supply the nipple a much smoother surface to rotate on.
This is heading toward the type of conditions, I would like my vintage TT bearing to function under.
I will feel more at rest if I can achieve this.
The method to remove the bushes should be reversible, so it can be returned to the original parts, if all goes well.
DiveDeepDog
29-08-2019, 22:46
Re the platter, I find it interesting the different direction/solution Sony took, being fairly lightweight. In the world of Tt's heavier is usually considered better.
Until the other day (when I oiled the bearing) I thought SP10 had the edge. The Sony was accurate but flat and lacked something. Lubrication has made a big difference to the image and flow of music, it's a bugger how these little things make such a difference, I'll be auditioning cables next ...
I've a pair of Mission Mechanic's, I'll have to get Tim to make a collet for his SP10 for a bake-off :eyebrows:
John, my bearing has no discernible movement, of course I didn't think about it before oiling, however on first dry removal it came out with a pop.
Anyone with a bottle SAE30 I could scrounge 10ml off? I've got some bottles, could swap for beer tokens or Ifotel.
yep,i have sae 30, i'll pm you with my address.
Nonnegativ
30-08-2019, 07:13
Neither of my TTS-8000 has any sideways movement of the platter/ bearing. Its actually quite an accurate fit.
John: Its a great project you are heading into - let us know how it progresses.
I personally wouldn't mind if we go Lenco on the TTS-8000 - thereby meaning that if improvements or new parts to the bearing can be made, it will only extend the lifespan of our TTS-8000's.
Hi Carston
The subject on the TTS Bearing stimulates me, as I have said in the past, for certain types of individuals, the gathering of the required knowledge on how to keep a TT performing at its best, is as much a hobby as the playing the media on it.
With the recent reports from yourself and Mark on the tightness of your bearings seating in the housing, I am reassured that my thoughts on the subject are less erred.
I intend on thoroughly investigating the method I have been supplied to remove the Bushes from the Housing, and if all goes well, can report on a successful remedial to exchange the worn parts, that are assumed to be sacrificial in the housing.
The more I study the bearing, it seems to be of a similar design to the bearings discussed on the Lenco Heaven Site, the fact it has a encapsulated housing is the real difference, from a layman viewpoint.
I feel that my remedial will be based on the using of a method supplied on LH, the thrust pad will be investigated as well.
There's a spring loaded mechanism on the black plate, my guess its to keep dust out. It needs positioning while the motors turning otherwise it introduces noise.
Mark, would you mind expanding on this a little please as I'm particularly ham-fisted and it's making me wonder if I should tackle opening the bearing myself. Also what did you use to clean out the gunk?
Mark, would you mind expanding on this a little please as I'm particularly ham-fisted and it's making me wonder if I should tackle opening the bearing myself. Also what did you use to clean out the gunk?
its very simple paul, first remove the platter,place your fingers in the 2 holes you see when you remove the mat and give a tug upwards,it should come off easy but it is a tapered fit so you might need a few tugs to remove.
be very careful of the magnetic strip running around the platter,if you damage its buggered.
next remove the 3 smaller screws that hold the spindle cover plate,under the cover is the sprung loaded plastic mechanism.pull up on the spindle to remove it.
you now have access to the bearing well.
to clean out the well i use brake cleaner and ipa,you can also use white spirit or wd40.
once the well is cleaned do the spindle,now its time for fresh oil,i personally use sae30 air compressor oil,i smear the spindle all round and also put a dab on the machined ball at the bottom of the spindle.
put everything back together and job done. a tip when you put the cover plate back on is to spin the spindle with you fingers whilst you tighten the 3 scews up,listen for any rubbing noise,if you get a large amount you should re center the cover plate,i also put a smear of oil around the plastic edge that touches the spindle.
if you want to be really anal like me lol you can once you have cleaned out the bearing well fill the well right up to the top with fresh oil and leave over night,you will be surprised how dirty the oil is the next day.
good luck!
DiveDeepDog
30-08-2019, 16:31
Couldn't haver said better myself Jamie.
I'll add use non metallic, cotton bud or wood skewer wrapped in cloth to clean the bearing housing.
When replacing the top plate, I put the 3 screws in loosely, then switched on. Moved the plate around till it was silent.
I did wonder about soaking bearings, didn't know if the bottom was sealed sufficiently well (coming from familiar Garrard that leave a British Leyland drop of oil) but I'll try that one too.
Thanks a lot for spelling it out so clearly Jamie. It's greatly appreciated. It doesn't seem too daunting so I'll buy some SAE30 and give it a try.
Couldn't haver said better myself Jamie.
I'll add use non metallic, cotton bud or wood skewer wrapped in cloth to clean the bearing housing.
When replacing the top plate, I put the 3 screws in loosely, then switched on. Moved the plate around till it was silent.
I did wonder about soaking bearings, didn't know if the bottom was sealed sufficiently well (coming from familiar Garrard that leave a British Leyland drop of oil) but I'll try that one too.
Thanks for the additional info Mark. When you say that you "put the 3 screws in loosely, then switched on" do you mean that you started the motor without the platter or just that you powered up the deck?
I have unboxed a TTS 8000, and checked the spindle for Side to Side Play, I have detected, what I will refer to zs a excessive movement, one that I am not detecting in the other TT's I have.
I don't know anything about the bearings engineered design or how much side to side movement there should be in a unused bearing, so I will not pretend that I have any ideas for what engineered tolerances there should be.
As a result of receiving a few guidelines on how to remove a Bush from a encapsulated bearing housing, I sourced a tool that I feel can be used to carry out one of the methods in a controlled manner.
The method I intend on using will only be attempted after I have sought further advices, but as it seems at present to not put any parts at a real risk, if set up properly, I will learn as much on the operation and any unknown to me risks, that I can.
With the stimulation of a method to remove a Bush that I could comprehend, I was motivated to unpack the TTS 8000, and see how secure the spindle felt in the housing.
The amount of movement I have felt does not make me feel that the Spindle is seated as well as I feel it should be, it is not in keeping with the way I have come to understand the intentions of others, that I know that have worked on "improving" bearings.
With the concerns felt about the amount of side to side movement, and the audible noise that can be detected when checking for movement from the spindle hitting the side walls of the housing, I got brave and had a attempt at what Mark did, and successfully removed the Spindle from the housing, and similar to Marks discovery, my one was very dry. The spindle did not have a amount of lubricant that could leave a residual on my fingers.
I am not at rest with this as a find, and intend on making changes to this situation, I feel a correct lubrication, will be a preventative exercise.
I can see into the Housing Shaft and there is a low level Bush, seated down in the bottom, that does not touch the base, there is a non metallic liner sleeve that sits above the lowest bush, with what feels like a tiny gap between the two components. The non metallic sleeve liner is of a length that it sits directly under the bush seen at the top of the shaft, there feels like there is tiny space between the top of the non metallic liner and the bottom of the high level bush.
The internal diameter of the Bushes are slightly smaller than the internal diameter of the non metallic sleeve.
I am assuming the gaps created between the Bushes and Sleeve are to allow a Lubricant to travel as well as expand.
Rightly or wrongly, I intend to attempt to tighten up the tolerances between the spindle and bushes, by exchanging them. So I will pursue the investigation of the supplied method to remove the bushes, the sleeve will be removed temporarily as well.
On the bottom of the spindle there is a half round nipple machined as part of spindles production onto the bottom face of the spindle.
This acts a the low friction rotation point, it is not easy to make out, but there seems to be a abrasive wear in the bottom of the housing on the base, again due to the unpolished appearance of the wear, this looks like it could be having a unwanted effect on the operation.
Again rightly or wrongly, I will be looking into the idea I have of placing a 0.5mm POM thrust pad in the base of bearing housing as a preventative measure to protect the housing,as well as supply the nipple a much smoother surface to rotate on.
This is heading toward the type of conditions, I would like my vintage TT bearing to function under.
I will feel more at rest if I can achieve this.
The method to remove the bushes should be reversible, so it can be returned to the original parts, if all goes well.
a few points,
by definition there has to be some play but if you can hear knocking thats too much imo,did you check play with fresh oil?
also if your rocking on the platter to check for play thats a lot of leverage force,its not under anything like that that force when in use.
if it were me and i really had no choice but to remove the bush id strip the tt right down and apply heat to the bearing casting it will/may come out a lot easier. if the bearing well is blind then you will have no option but to pull the bearing out,i would not risk doing it cold.id also put it back in with heat too.
regarding the delrin thurst pad at the bottom of the well, mine has a indentation that the machined ball runs in,oil will sit in there to and aid lubrication although as nothing is mentioned in the tts-8000 service manual about oiling it i doubt if it was designed to have oil there?
I have put this same topic onto Lenco Heaven, I am enjoying the subject, and encouraging a further contribution from a site that lives and breaths rebuilding rotating parts on a TT.
It can be found in 'Other Turntables' on the Home Page.
I have a interest in a remedial, as a result of feeling the side to side movement from the Spindle housed in a Shaft that has no signs of Lubricant contained in it.
The platter was removed following the first discovery, but I only ever apply a pressure directly to the spindle when checking for a wear at this location.
At present if the method can be found to return a TTS 8000 back to as similar a condition as the it was when it left the factory, then that will be a plus for any TTS owners, who view it as their end game TT.
I am aware of the interest in these TT's, as I have been on the receiving end of quite a few enquiries about the TT. To the point that some are looking to purchase one for storage, just in case their one in present use has some sort of catastrophic failure.
To some with a well honed anal attitude to learning the engineering tolerances required to produce a immaculate vinyl replay, a worn Spindle Bearing 'might' be one of the conditions as to, what is classed as a Catastrophic Failure.
For me I haven't got it that bad, I like the knowing of the requirement and the methods to maintain the ideal condition, so learning how to service and overhaul a Spindle Bearing is up my street.
I am sure that if a acceptable method to remove the Bushes is discovered and a replacement Bush is discovered that fits the Spindle with a tighter tolerance, then I am on my way.
The POM Thrust Pad appeals for a few reasons, but isolating metal to metal parts is of interest, as well as the attenuation properties POM is known to have when used in place of metal, if the Platter sits 1mm higher as a result of adding such a material, I can't foresee it having a
detrimental effect on the performance of the TTS.
What I am seeing as a result of this bearing discussion is a complete turn around on the earlier thoughts expressed on the maintenance of this bearing, to the point it is being extracted and filled with cleaning fluids, bathed in oil, cleaned once more and oiled again, and others are being advised to carry out the same procedures.
The result of such invasive fettling is now a TT that is in the view of one person, a TT that is surpassing another respected TT they own and being classed as worthy for a bit of dueling against other TT Brands.
All that turnaround in willingness to carry out a maintenance, created by just a few pages in a thread, that has to be a great result for all who are now converted.
please dont take this the wrong way but could you use a few paragraphs here and there as it makes it easier to read if the posts are long.
why dont you clean out your tts bearing well,use fresh oil and report back on the play?
Patrick Dixon
31-08-2019, 11:01
please dont take this the wrong way but could you use a few paragraphs here and there as it makes it easier to read if the posts are long.
I'm glad it's not just me! Mind you, a capital letter at the start of each sentence helps readability too ;-)
lol in my defence my caps key is missing from the keyboard :ner:
DiveDeepDog
31-08-2019, 11:54
Thanks for the additional info Mark. When you say that you "put the 3 screws in loosely, then switched on" do you mean that you started the motor without the platter or just that you powered up the deck?
Yes, unlike the techy there's a sub-platter connected to the spindle, so its safe to run without the platter. When you get it apart you'll see the spring loaded mechanism (dust protection?) under the black plate. When I 1st re-assembled I could hear it rubbing, I just loosened the screws, moved the plate till it was quiet while it was running and tightened the screws.
Thanks for the clarification Mark. Much appreciated.
Nonnegativ
31-08-2019, 16:30
Yes, unlike the techy there's a sub-platter connected to the spindle, so its safe to run without the platter. When you get it apart you'll see the spring loaded mechanism (dust protection?) under the black plate. When I 1st re-assembled I could hear it rubbing, I just loosened the screws, moved the plate till it was quiet while it was running and tightened the screws.
Just a bit of warning: When talking to "good old hifi" in Berlin who has serviced some German TTS-8000 it was mentioned that starting the TT without the platter could result in the chip controlling the XTAL-Lock to fail.
So i you start the TT without the platter (I dont dare that..) at least disable the XTal-lock.
Nonnegativ
31-08-2019, 17:31
If the XTAL-lock fails (IC: OKI MSN5576) there is right now some available on the bay - I have bought my share.
Another solution is listed here: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/sony-ps8750-tts8000-oscillator-replacement-proposal-with-modern-cmos.784237/
May our chips last forever :)
DiveDeepDog
31-08-2019, 18:55
Carsten, noted thanks. All this info is great, there's very little out there about the TTS:cool:
I was looking at SAE30 ISO 100 oil on ebay and found this (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30ml-Mobil-DTE-Oil-Heavy-ISO-VG-100-Bearing-Oil-SAE-30-Olite-Bushing/162791560766?hash=item25e722163e:g:BUEAAOSwAgVdRCE E) oil for Olite Sintered Bronze Bushing/Bearings. Would it be ok or should I go for a compressor oil as Jamie suggested like this (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLARKE-ISO-100-SAE30-PISTON-COMPRESSOR-OIL-BLUE-LINE-COMPRESSORS-1-LITRE/222448353841) or this (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Compressor-Oil-1-Litre-SAE-30-ISO-100-Grade-Oil-Piston-Air-Compressor-Oil-1L/113043270191)?
im no oil expert but it would seem the first one you linked to is a hydraulic oil? im not sure if that matters?
im using the one in the 2nd link,i also have this one too, http://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/water-white-oil/317
id also like to try some ANDEROL 465.
Thanks Jamie. When googling the Anderol I came across a link on pfm to Technics SFW0010 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Technics-SFW0010-Turntable-Panasonic-original/dp/B00N3OS3PY) Turntable Direct Drive Oil for the 1210. Based on nothing more than the fact it is specifically for DD turntables it strikes me as a safe option.
me too :) ive just ordered some :cool:
Thanks Jamie. When googling the Anderol I came across a link on pfm to Technics SFW0010 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Technics-SFW0010-Turntable-Panasonic-original/dp/B00N3OS3PY) Turntable Direct Drive Oil for the 1210. Based on nothing more than the fact it is specifically for DD turntables it strikes me as a safe option.
I tried the Techie oil today and I think it is too thin for the Sony as I got some bearing noise. Awaiting SAE30 anxiously.
Many thanks to Mark and Jamie for their help with this today.
Patrick Dixon
04-09-2019, 08:26
Being short of time, I just added some SAE20 fully synthetic oil (it's what I used in the TD124) to the Sony bearing to try it out. With the Hadcock 242SE/Decca SC4E it sounds fantastic - amazing dynamics and texture, and revealing of lots of subtleties that I hadn't noticed before. I must go back and clean the bearing out properly when I get a chance...
Here’s my 2 cents,and of course I’m not an expert in engineering but I think the correct oil viscosity is related to the tolerance between the spindle and the bronze bearing, too thick and there won’t be a sufficient film between the two as its forced out of the way when the spindle is inserted, too thin and it will flow down the spindle and sit on the bottom.
Sae 30 seems about right to me although I’ve got some sae 50 to try.
Patrick Dixon
04-09-2019, 14:37
I think it will flow to the bottom eventually anyway, which is why you need enough to fill up around the spindle.
I'm currently using Clarke Compressor Oil ISO150 (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/compressor-oil-sae40-/) (SAE40) to good effect. I'm very thankful to the people on this thread for discovering that the bearing could be serviced and for the advice on how to proceed. I was always worried that the bearing on a 40 plus year old deck would fail eventually without intervention. Now that my bearing has been cleaned out and re-lubed I feel a whole lot better.
Edited to add that I also think the deck sounds better after the bearing service. Hard to put into words but I think it sounds more organic and flows better. Of course, it could just be confirmation bias or euphoria at completing the job without ruining my deck. :lol:
AJSki2fly
05-09-2019, 16:40
I'm currently using Clarke Compressor Oil ISO150 (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/compressor-oil-sae40-/) (SAE40) to good effect. I'm very thankful to the people on this thread for discovering that the bearing could be serviced and for the advice on how to proceed. I was always worried that the bearing on a 40 plus year old deck would fail eventually without intervention. Now that my bearing has been cleaned out and re-lubed I feel a whole lot better.
Edited to add that I also think the deck sounds better after the bearing service. Hard to put into words but I think it sounds more organic and flows better. Of course, it could just be confirmation bias or euphoria at completing the job without ruining my deck. :lol:
By some of this and add a few drops to your oil and your bearing will last many time longer and be very quiet( as long as it is not already worn out). This is used by many car race teams to reduce friction in engines and gain performance and life. I use it on my TT. Have a read up about it. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Extralube-ZX1-Micro-Oil-Friction-Eliminator-250ml-Official-UK-Seller-/183618728276?ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay .com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-53481-19255-0%252F1%253Ficep_ff3%253D2%2526pub%253D5574933636% 2526toolid%253D10001%2526campid%253D5337487963%252 6customid%253D%2526mpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25 252Fwww%25252Eebay%25252Eco%25252Euk%25252Fitm%252 52FExtralube-ZX1-Micro-Oil-Friction-Eliminator-250ml-Official-UK-Seller-%25252F183618728276%2526srcrot%253D710-53481-19255-0%2526rvr_id%253D2099705488915%2526rvr_ts%253D0247 b98d16d0a9cbe2b03b43fff02250&ul_noapp=true
a small update,
i couldn't resist having a look on the underside of the bearing housing :rolleyes:
it would appear that the spindle cast tube that the oilite bearing sit in is not blind,in the photo you can clearly see the other side of the white delrin thrust pad,its got some sealer/glue around its edge but id say looking at the slots it just screws in.
this does mean that it could be possible to safely press out and press in new oilite bearings :eyebrows:
https://i.postimg.cc/SRbQ2znG/IMG-3594-1.jpg
Wakefield Turntables
05-09-2019, 18:21
do it ! do it!
Neither of my TTS-8000 has any sideways movement of the platter/ bearing. Its actually quite an accurate fit.
John: Its a great project you are heading into - let us know how it progresses.
I personally wouldn't mind if we go Lenco on the TTS-8000 - thereby meaning that if improvements or new parts to the bearing can be made, it will only extend the lifespan of our TTS-8000's.
a small update,
i couldn't resist having a look on the underside of the bearing housing :rolleyes:
it would appear that the spindle cast tube that the oilite bearing sit in is not blind,in the photo you can clearly see the other side of the white delrin thrust pad,its got some sealer/glue around its edge but id say looking at the slots it just screws in.
this does mean that it could be possible to safely press out and press in new oilite bearings :eyebrows:
https://i.postimg.cc/SRbQ2znG/IMG-3594-1.jpg
lol theres a lot at stake so very small steps :cool:
Cheers for that one Jamie.
I see the exact same white part in Geoff from Bucharest images, and had no way off relating that part to being inserted in the base of the Bearing
Housing.
Another avenue to work with.
As the assumption of a blind hole, as suggested previously, now looks like there is a possiblity of a access into the housing from the underside.
I will be attempting this one in the future, as the removal of this plug, will be a good aide to any cleaning regime, if it allows for a thorough flushing of contaminants that are dislodged, as well as protect it from any damage due to coming into contact with a degreasing solvent.
Lots of questions for me now to work on ???.
If this Plastic Part has the dual purpose of a Thrust Pad and Lubricant Retaining Sump Plug, then any effort to carry out a degreaseing with a solvent, will have to be carefully thought through, as the part as seen by me, in two separate images today, has impressions in the material on both the Top and Bottom Surfaces, the amount of material that is present between these impressions where they may share the same footprint, is a unknown gauge, until this gauge is a known , a incorrect choice of Solvent, might just react with the material, and and as a result, compromise the function of the part, causing a premature failure, when the Bearing Housing is again operational.
The more that can be learnt about the material and the purpose of it when in its seat, seems quite important, this could ? be the reason already for the loss of all trace of oil as being reported.
Again a good spot on your behalf, and very useful too, I am already feeling very positive, and wondering how this Plastic Part can help with my intention for the servicing of the bearing.
so a bit more investigation.
removed the 3 larger screws around the bearing housing.
https://i.postimg.cc/Twd1SMc6/IMG-3595.jpg
you can then lift the whole assembly out from the unit.
https://i.postimg.cc/4xyrW8cS/IMG-3596.jpg
once out remove the 3 screws on the bottom of the housing to remove the cast aluminium bearing holder/tube.
https://i.postimg.cc/VNYbyCYp/IMG-3600.jpg
there is a rubber washer between the 2 units.
https://i.postimg.cc/bJ5G2VQf/IMG-3601.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/0ySLgztY/IMG-3609.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/KcLqv67b/IMG-3610.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/90TGXHsn/IMG-3602.jpg
the rubber washer sits in the dished out section on the housing.
https://i.postimg.cc/CxfVFPKf/IMG-3608.jpg
here's the spindle in the bearing.
https://i.postimg.cc/m2mQbjnR/IMG-3607.jpg
so i have a choice,do i remove the oilite bearings and put new ones in or just re oil the old ones?
im also open to other bearing options too.
in the meantime lets take the bearings out :)
apply heat with a paint stripper,i used a bit of round bar i had and tapped the edge of the top bearing to remove it,
nearly out!
https://i.postimg.cc/d00BG17M/IMG-3611.jpg
top bearing came out easy.
https://i.postimg.cc/sX7ZWdJd/IMG-3612.jpg
i used some sockets and a g-clamp to press out the bottom bearing and spacer tube.
https://i.postimg.cc/pVQFXvTK/IMG-3614.jpg
all out and ready to be inspected and measured.
https://i.postimg.cc/3Jn0mZ2R/IMG-3615.jpg
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2019, 17:58
Good so far keep up the good work
im currently looking at more modern alternative's but need guidance,igus seem promising but size might be an issue.
ive come this far and would hate to put back new oilites but they may be the only option.
You're a brave man Jamie. I'm in awe. Great work.
https://media1.giphy.com/media/MUeQeEQaDCjE4/giphy.gif
Nonnegativ
07-09-2019, 10:00
Great work Jamie - I nominate you to the TTS-8000 Investigators Award of the month :clap:
Regarding refurbishing the oilite bearings there is some interesting points made here:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ot-re-lubricating-oilite-bearing-213850/
I am far from being an expert on refurbishment of oilite bearings, but I am pretty sure the Lenco community made some groundwork on the subject.
The trustpad is quite interesting. I'm guessing it is the weaker material of the two main contactspoints in the bearing, so it will eventually wear out. If a replacement for the trustpad could be made (which material ?) I guess we would have come a long way of extending the lifespan of our TTS-8000's.
Patrick Dixon
07-09-2019, 10:44
Great work Jamie - I nominate you to the TTS-8000 Investigators Award of the month :clap:
Seconded!
Are they definitely oilite bearings?
The 'ball' on the end of the spindle and the thrust pad will take the of the force and I'd assume they would need some lubrication of their own. TD124s and my EMT 927 (which also have ball bearing contacts) use light oil. I have some of the 'special' EMT oil and it looks similar in consistency to the SAE20 oil that I used in my TD124 and the Sony.
When I was at Reading Festival watching the Foo Fighters,
Dave Grohl made reference to some of the acts over the previous decades that had Topped the Bill.
He was making the statement of the like, " Now he had Big balls",
"They had Big Balls", "He had really Big Balls".
I let the follow up readers decide where Jamie Ball size fits in.
You are in front of herd now, with this strip back.
I myself have been very inspired by it and have modded a few of my thoughts on where I am going with my TTS.
Looking at all the parts removed from within the Housing and Oil Seal assembly, the most unique part seems to be the most vulnerable,
i.e the Plastic Sump Plug.
Doing all that one can to preserve the integrity of this seems to me to be paramount.
Now it has been shown how to access it, if there is a desire to clean out the bottom of the housing, I would suggest the method/or similar of strip back as seen carried out by Jamie.
This will then allow for the Plastic Part to be detergent cleaned, removing any of the risks that a solvent may pose to it.
The opportunity to source a replacement at present seems very limited.
thank you fella's.
i have an inquisitive mind,but yeah perhaps my balls are a bit big if you consider my bearings were/are ok :eek:
ive put it all back together again now,untill i get some direction about better replacements and bearing materials that out perform the oilites.
the turntable does appear to be running very well now,no noise.
before i put the bearings back in i baked them in the oven to draw out any old oil and open up the pours.
even after a good clean before going in i was surprised to see a lot more had weeped out.
when i was sure no more was being drawn out i put them in very hot sae 30 compressor oil and left them to soak for 30 mins.
i then heated up the bearing carrier and pressed them back in,job done!
its not that much of a hard job to be honest,just take plenty of pictures for reference as you go.
If I were looking to improve this bearing I would most likely use POM (Delrin) bushes. However, I think it even more likely I would remake the entire bearing housing from POM and not use separate bearing liners. I would also want to know exactly what the dimensions of the bearing shaft are and if the diameter is consistent along it’s length.
hi mark,that sounds lovely!
however that may be a step to far unless you know someone who is prepaired to machine 1 offs.
Seconded!
Are they definitely oilite bearings?
The 'ball' on the end of the spindle and the thrust pad will take the of the force and I'd assume they would need some lubrication of their own. TD124s and my EMT 927 (which also have ball bearing contacts) use light oil. I have some of the 'special' EMT oil and it looks similar in consistency to the SAE20 oil that I used in my TD124 and the Sony.
the design of the tts-8000 and also the pioneer plc-590,both well respected turntables is such that no oil is needed. to us turntable enthusiasts that would seem counter-intuitive (myself included).
oilite bearings do not need oiling,i suspect the delrin thrust pad doesn't either.
now fast forward 40 years and perhaps they do need some oil,here is where we are today,in my mind rather than putting oil on the spindle it seems much better to have the oilites re oiled under vacuum or just fit new ones.
the next question comes into play when you get old bearings out,the mind turns to 'is there better' i could use?
if only i had a lathe,oh the fun i would have!
i also forgot to add this,
i removed the thrust pad,very easy to do,just apply heat around it on the metal housing and it unscrews!
https://i.postimg.cc/k438c5Hj/IMG-3620.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/j2kSMg5s/IMG-3618.jpg
so we now have all the parts removed that make up the bearings. :cool:
That thrust pad isn’t made from Delrin, looks more like nylon to me.
That thrust pad isn’t made from Delrin, looks more like nylon to me.
nice one,as an indication when you put the screwdriver in the slots,they flex,ive not handled delrin or nylon so i was just assuming.
DiveDeepDog
08-09-2019, 09:53
Is that a standard metric thread?
I've no plans to open mine up, but, does the electronics board cover the bearing, or is there a hole ? I'm thinking adding mass/vibration absorption materials.
+ The standard mod for a 1210 is to remove the transformer/mains voltage from the deck. Do you think thats an option. Setting another seed to fiddle, the transformers isolated (we remove transit screws) is it sprung loaded or rubber grommets?
Great work :cool:
Hi Mark
This TT, for me,has definitely been the one to get me thinking about how it can be, and not rest on how it is. I am really hoping this is a project I fulfill.
I was not seeing the off board Tranx, which would be a simplistic method of isolation with a guaranteed isolation if achievable.
I was already looking at a way to improve on decoupling the Tranx, for a more effective isolation.
There are a few other ideas in with this, the understanding on how to keep the work reversible, will take the most thought and outlay, if achievable.
The Motor is on three identical mounts, two as seen in the image and one centrally fixed on the opposite end.
The pair as seen are on a made up of a Red Rubber, Gator type forms, that two are used per fastening sandwiching the Transformers mounting bracket between them.
The single centrally fixed mounting fastening has two Black Rubber, Gator type forms used to sandwich the Transformers mounting bracket between them.
The Black Rubber seems less springy than the Red Rubbers.
Whether this is a material selected for the extra weight or if it a deterioration over the years, is for another to decide on. To the touch, it feels like it requires a little more applied finger pressure to create a depression.
The Circuit Board has a 11.5mm hole, that is directly in line with the sump plug.
2664626647
is yours a japanese tts john?
Yes it is a Japanese one.
I couldn't make the time for a superb specimen,so it ended up in a worthy ownership,
it has been very pleasing to receive the feedback on the overall condition, during this thread.
Indirectly, my one I have at present, has definitely contributed to the energies put into learning about these in a way not seen to date.
So it has been quite a useful TTS, for all of its requirement for a little bit of TLC, in the bearing department.
With Jamie's recent exploits, there does not seem to be any concerns on my behalf to bring it back to the original Spec.
nice one,as an indication when you put the screwdriver in the slots,they flex,ive not handled delrin or nylon so i was just assuming.
You can buy white Delrin but it is more of a true white than the piece you show. It also has less flex than you describe. Nylon, on the other hand, has that yellowish opacity (or can have) and also the flex you describe. Not that it really matters :).
Jamie, did you measure the oilite bearings? Might they be an off the shelf (https://www.bearing-king.co.uk/metric-oilite-plain-bearings) size?
Hi yes I did, they seem to be an odd size, I’m looking into igus bearings at the moment, oilites will be a last resort
When selecting a replacement Bushing, it makes sense to purchase a batch and deselect any that are not the closest tolerance match.
As mentioned in a previous post, on Lenco Heaven, there is a known of procedure, where a spindle diameter is matched to the inside diameter of the bushes.
When a batch of these are selected the outside diameter (OD) can be selected to best fit the Housing, I have not heard many raised concerns about the OD not matching.
The next and maybe most important is the wall thickness of the bush, as a variation/inconsistency in a bushes wall thickness will enforce the Spindle to rotate in a 'axis' that is not true.
Add two bushes into the mix that are not matched to each others measurements,
and the Spindle rotation can easily be forced into a 'axis' that is not true.
With the added compromise of having a Spindle rotating inside a bush that will not have been produced to meet the machining tolerance of the Spindle, any play in the interface of bush and Spindle, will as far as I can work out, further the rotation of the Spindle in a 'axis' that is not true.
I have no experience of, or have read anywhere, how a lubricant film separating the two materials has a effect that produces a correction, that allows the Spindle to rotate true on 'axis'.
I am off the belief that careful selection of the bushes, is the most cost effective way to remove the eccentric rotation that is able to be quite easily produced.
I don't know how many TT's have been sold throughout the Heyday and Present Day that have a bearing assembly similar to the ones being discussed.
So eccentric rotation, is a possibilty on many TT models, and to many it does not matter, as the enjoyment of the vinyl experience is the fundamental.
Any unwanted information picked up by the Stylus, as a result eccentric rotations, will not be high on the agenda.
There is a certain type of individual, who do wish for there Stylus faultlessly to track the groove, exactly as the design theory states, no hitting onto the grooves side walls, and no other effects being created that will make the Stylus produce unwanted information in the replay.
For the certain type of individual, the engineering is also the drive, the quality of the bearing design is paramount for the Stylus to function with minimum interference, not too tight, causing 'Stick Slip' due to loss of lubrication, or not too loose resulting in a version of the above description.
The isolation of the effects of the drive mechanism on the chassis/platter/ Stylus, and the timing produced by it really do matter.
The coupling of the Tonearm to the Plinth, and the materials used for a Plinth to produce a platform that will protect the Tonearm,Stylus,Platter, Chassis from unwanted resonances.
If one falls into this category, and has invested heavily in their TT set up,
then if the TT in use is a Vintage one, with more rotations than I care to guess.
If a owner of this type of TT feels the need to carry out a service, taking the extra time to source the most accurate dimensions for any exchange parts, to meet a modern attitude to the interface tolerances, will be time well spent.
getting my arse into gear on the plinth while i ponder bearing options,
heres a quick drawing. the corner radius's might get reduced a little
https://i.postimg.cc/L4fNdrkY/IMG-E3647.jpg
Bigman80
15-09-2019, 18:01
Oooh, rounded
I like that.
DiveDeepDog
15-09-2019, 19:05
I liked round. Also shows the Corian I used was blue .
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48738805971_b3ddb4a9c7_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hfT7YT)IMG_5311 (https://flic.kr/p/2hfT7YT) by mark leatherland (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49381909@N08/), on Flickr
a small bearing update,
i have got a meeting with Arthur Khoubesserian and the engineering company that do his tt work on wednesday so fingers crossed i should have a positive bearing upgrade solution very soon,the best bit is they are only 5 minutes down the road from where i work too :)
Patrick Dixon
20-09-2019, 17:49
I've got to say that since I chucked some oil in my TTS-8000 bearing my system sounds absolutely awesome. Fitting a Hadcock 282SE with my favourite (John Wright fettled) Decca SC4E might have something to do with it, now I seem to have accidentally aced the setup.
I am loath to fiddle any more now in case the fantastic-ness escapes, but I probably will.
I am lucky enough to have heard some lovely systems over the years but I can't recall hearing one as good as this:
Sony TTS-8000/Hadcock 282SE/Decca SC4E/Graham Slee Revelation/Jos van Eijndhoven Passive Pre/Krell KSA 300S/B&W N802
Nonnegativ
20-09-2019, 22:42
a small bearing update,
i have got a meeting with Arthur Khoubesserian and the engineering company that do his tt work on wednesday so fingers crossed i should have a positive bearing upgrade solution very soon,the best bit is they are only 5 minutes down the road from where i work too :)
This is great news - thanks for the effort.
earlier in the week i took my tt bearings to an engineer to be checked over,i also met arthur from funk firm and had a very interesting chat with both of them.
the outcome is my original oilites are fine with less than 0.01mm runout measured at the spindle.i also was handed a acromat to look at,the theory behind it intriques me so once my tt is back up and running i will try one out.
knowing that the bearings are fine they are going to be re oiled,after some reading on the net it would seem a very good choice would be anderol 465,trouble is seems to be only sold over here in 20 litres! the price is shocking,but i tracked down someone who uses it and they have sold me a litre,again the price is shocking lol.
so the first step is to try and get rid of the old oil in the bearings,first i soaked them for 8 hrs in acetone,then another 8 hrs in isopropyl alcohol,you would think that this would do the job but after a 15 minute session in the oven the heat drew more oil out.
https://i.postimg.cc/15Bvt5k5/IMG-3684.jpg
they are now cleaned and ready for new oil which arrives next week.
on to the plinth,
after drawing up my design ive had a router template laser cut from mild steel,once thats done i can start the serious work :eek:
DiveDeepDog
28-09-2019, 17:43
Isn't it the same as the SAE30?
yep thats the grade,
have a look here,in particular the application data.
https://anderol.com/images/anderol/ANDEROL%20465%20EN.pdf
so todays mission is to put back some oil (anderol 465) into the oilite bearings.
i made a crude vacuum chamber after watching a few vids,it works rather well.
the idea is to remove the air from the tiny oil pockets in the bearing,thus allowing the oil to replace the air.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jh5fPXhC/IMG-3696.jpg
you can see the air bubbles coming out from the bearings,once this stops i reckon the bearings are good to go for another 40 yrs!
https://youtu.be/DANRw8lg3-8
https://youtu.be/d2lfNpBSETw
Bigman80
05-10-2019, 11:21
so todays mission is to put back some oil (anderol 465) into the oilite bearings.
i made a crude vacuum chamber after watching a few vids,it works rather well.
the idea is to remove the air from the tiny oil pockets in the bearing,thus allowing the oil to replace the air.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jh5fPXhC/IMG-3696.jpg
you can see the air bubbles coming out from the bearings,once this stops i reckon the bearings are good to go for another 40 yrs!
https://youtu.be/DANRw8lg3-8
https://youtu.be/d2lfNpBSETw
That's absolutely awesome lol
So satisfying to watch ahahaha.
Jamie, can I ask what prompted you to take this on in the first place?
You are having fun with this TTS-8000.
With the air now dissipated from the interstices and replaced with a oil impregnation, there will I believe/presume be a added benefit of micro vibration / resonances now being controlled, by being damped in oil and no longer able to amplify in trapped air.
I am looking forward to hearing your reports on how you perceive any changes in the SQ.
Hopefully it will be functioning for the 20-10 in Sheffield ?
That's absolutely awesome lol
So satisfying to watch ahahaha.
Jamie, can I ask what prompted you to take this on in the first place?
it was johng's comments on his bearing that got me intrigued,i decided to inspect mine,then have them checked by a precision engineer,they measured absolutely fine which is no surprise as i wasn't having any issue's with them.
although oilites are self lubricating and do not need oiling i decided to flush out the old oil and replace with fresh clean oil as a matter of maintenance,the anderol oil was recomended to me by angus.
You are having fun with this TTS-8000.
With the air now dissipated from the interstices and replaced with a oil impregnation, there will I believe/presume be a added benefit of micro vibration / resonances now being controlled, by being damped in oil and no longer able to amplify in trapped air.
I am looking forward to hearing your reports on how you perceive any changes in the SQ.
Hopefully it will be functioning for the 20-10 in Sheffield ?
yes you may well be right there,iam also changing the thrust pad on mine to lignum vitae which has a low noise quality,it seems daft to me that having stripped it all down,not to replace that.
sadly i wont be able to make the bake off as my dog sitter is fully booked,also again whislt the tt is in bits im making a panzerholz plinth for it,work starts tomorrow so keep watching for updates. :cool:
Bigman80
05-10-2019, 11:43
it was johng's comments on his bearing that got me intrigued,i decided to inspect mine,then have them checked by a precision engineer,they measured absolutely fine which is no surprise as i wasn't having any issue's with them.
although oilites are self lubricating and do not need oiling i decided to flush out the old oil and replace with fresh clean oil as a matter of maintenance,the anderol oil was recomended to me by angus.
yes you may well be right there,iam also changing the thrust pad on mine to lignum vitae which has a low noise quality,it seems daft to me that having stripped it all down,not to replace that.
sadly i wont be able to make the bake off as my dog sitter is fully booked,also again whislt the tt is in bits im making a panzerholz plinth for it,work starts tomorrow so keep watching for updates. :cool:
Gotya. addictive this fettling lark isn't it lol
Looking forward to seeing the plinth
DiveDeepDog
05-10-2019, 12:16
I've made lignum thrust pads for Garrard's in the past. I'd go with solid plug if you can over a thin sliver.
Solid phosphor bronze usurped it though...
If you need some supplies I've still got a few bits, PM me :thumbsup:
The bearing I have is not unique it can be found on any TT that has had no servicing, that is from a certain era and has received much usage.
What this recent spate of investigations has shown, is that there are TT's out there, that have been believed to be in their prime, that after a little inquisitiveness have proved to be in need of a little TLC and servicing.
Obviously Jamies TTS exploits has been thorough, and he is well on route to assembling a bearing housing to a close mimic of the Factory version.
I am over the moon with my outcome, as it has allowed for me to get to grips with a long overdue bearing design that has been pondered and sketched on Paper.
This is no longer a concept and has been viewed and approved as a design with no foreseen constraints.
My TTS is now a donor model for this design, and will over the coming months receive a custom rebuild.
This method of Custom/Commission builds is in keeping with most of my HiFi systems devices,
so I am a 'Pig in Poo' on this one.
The materials are being sought, and if all goes well, my TTS will no longer be a TTS as is known, but will have a very modern approach under the hood.
I will have my TTS Sintered Bushes/Spindle Measured on a Micrometer for their ID/OD and this will be useful for the records, as well as being a clear indicator of a fit that will allow a audible rattle when the interface within the bearing housing is dry.
A pin head of Oil has been placed on my TTS Spindle and as a result, the Spindle Movement diminished and there was no longer a Audible rattle, so I will assume that the ID/OD Dimensions will be quite close.
I've made lignum thrust pads for Garrard's in the past. I'd go with solid plug if you can over a thin sliver.
Solid phosphor bronze usurped it though...
If you need some supplies I've still got a few bits, PM me :thumbsup:
cheers mate,yes im making plugs rather than thin discs,my choice of material was made from reading this by conrad.
http://www.conradhoffman.com/Wear_pad_tests.xls
so todays mission is to put back some oil (anderol 465) into the oilite bearings.
i made a crude vacuum chamber after watching a few vids,it works rather well.
the idea is to remove the air from the tiny oil pockets in the bearing,thus allowing the oil to replace the air.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jh5fPXhC/IMG-3696.jpg
you can see the air bubbles coming out from the bearings,once this stops i reckon the bearings are good to go for another 40 yrs!
https://youtu.be/DANRw8lg3-8
https://youtu.be/d2lfNpBSETw
Super work, but no one likes a smart alec Jamie. :stalks: :lol:
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