View Full Version : Do mains cables make a difference??
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 17:17
I'm off Down the rabbit hole.
Ordered some bits from MCRU and should be made up in the next few days.
I'll post links to the bits when I get a minute.
SO, am I wasting my time?
narabdela
08-05-2018, 17:27
:popcorn:
Absolutely not.
Had many bought in and DIY cables in various systems I've had.
They make a difference.
Buying an expensive one wont make a bad sounding box sound good though, more about letting you hear better what the bit of kit is capable of..
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 17:40
Absolutely not.
Had many bought in and DIY cables in various systems I've had.
They make a difference.
Buying an expensive one wont make a bad sounding box sound good though, more about letting you hear better what the bit of kit is capable of..Thanks Gaz,. They are well know quality bits but not breaking the bank. I'm looking forward to experimenting although, I am sceptical for some reason.
Stryder5
08-05-2018, 17:42
Go ferret.......
Primalsea
08-05-2018, 17:51
I think that they can, but not for the reasons that are often touted in marketing. When I used to spend a lot more time building hifi bits I noticed that having a good low impedance grounding scheme could make a huge difference on performance. My current theory is that the special mains cables make a difference because they tend to provide better earth connections. Couple some good mains leads with a good block and chances are earth currents between equipment will be lower and any filtered noise can be delt with more effectively.
Also screened cables can help especially near phono stages. If you ever wave an oscilloscope probe near some mains cables you can quite easily see the pickup on the scope.
Cases protect against this noise, but you need a good solid ground connection scheme in order to get this noise away from the equipment.
Interested to see what you results you get with your experiments.
Wakefield Turntables
08-05-2018, 17:57
The question you should be asking is, do they make a difference to you? No-one can answer the mains cable question as there are simply too many variables to account for. As always, trust your ears, if they make a difference then great, if not move on. ;)
I think so, as I doubt your equipment would switch on without them:D
Marco.
Audio Al
08-05-2018, 18:05
Im yet to be convinced , cant see how , my home was built in the 50s with 50s ring main wiring , how can a 1mtr length of super duper cable make a difference , have you seen the wiring inside some hifi units ?
mains 240 v ---------------------------------super duper cable -------------------------------------hifi
Where's Jez when you need him?
sq225917
08-05-2018, 18:19
Just hardwire your kit with thick wire, less connections, no oxidisation, simple. No iec socket and plug combination can be better than, "no-plug-and-socket". Hard wire and be done with it.
Where's Jez when you need him?
Presenting 'Who wants to be a millionaire'?
Just hardwire your kit with thick wire, less connections, no oxidisation, simple. No iec socket and plug combination can be better than, "no-plug-and-socket". Hard wire and be done with it.
But then you are missing out on the benefits of all the quantum technology. You can't tell me they do all that ground-breaking research and charge thousands of pounds just for you to end up with something that's not quite as good as hard wiring?
The secret is though, to hard-wire something in place that's decent - and in that respect you can do better than a cheap 'kettle lead', whilst stopping short of wanking the foo-monkey;)
Almost anything from the likes of Belden would do the job nicely - and pretty cheaply.
Marco.
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 18:49
IEC - https://mcru.co.uk/product/iego-pure-copper-iec-connector/?v=b2659594fd01
Purchased ddue to price and perceived quality. Also has copper connections.
Cable,
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 152136104589
Plug,
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 251102854284
The plug may change to one with copper connections for continuity.
chris@panteg
08-05-2018, 18:59
Where's Jez when you need him?
He would say that expensive mains cables make zero difference, nada!
...only with a few more exclamation marks on the end!!!!!!! :D
Marco.
IEC - https://mcru.co.uk/product/iego-pure-copper-iec-connector/?v=b2659594fd01
Purchased ddue to price and perceived quality. Also has copper connections.
Cable,
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 152136104589
Plug,
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 251102854284
The plug may change to one with copper connections for continuity.
Nowt wrong with that :)
As ever in hi-fi, there's a balance to be had with everything, and mains cables are no different. Therefore, shit-quality, cheapo kettle leads can easily be bettered, but you don't need to wade knee-deep in foo, to do it!;)
Marco.
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 19:07
Nowt wrong with that :)
As ever in hi-fi, there's a balance to be had with everything, and mains cables are no different. Therefore, shit-quality, cheap kettle leads can easily be bettered, but you don't need to wade knee-deep in foo, to do it!;)
Marco.Cheers Marco,
I'm not prepared to go "balls deep" into this particular area and ironically, its probably cheaper to hardwire the stuff so if this is significant then ill go hardwired. If its not, it'll be in the Private Exhibitions [emoji12]
The owner thought that his £27k mains cables had made a huge difference in my system. The only problem was that the wag behind the system had plugged my kettle leads in again for a laugh!
No worries. The most important thing with a mains lead, used for hi-fi purposes, is to eliminate it acting as an aerial for noise and interference [or at least reduce that effect as far as possible]. In that respect, pay particular attention to shielding.
Marco.
I'm sure there has been a discussion or two about this subject before on AOS?:scratch:
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 19:20
No worries. The most important thing with a mains lead, used for hi-fi purposes, is to eliminate it acting as an aerial for noise and interference. In that respect, pay particular attention to shielding.
Marco.Sound, I'll be very meticulous. Any recommendations for wiring before I go for the floating shield approach?
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 19:20
I'm sure there has been a discussion or two about this subject before on AOS?:scratch:Defo Jim, I'm sure I've probably read it too lol
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 19:25
http://s.aliexpress.com/Jjuaq2uY?fromSns=Copy
Too far ? [emoji854]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180508/887ef0d45ee215ee3c2bf780e38b2c4a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180508/e0a54c15642b34073c9557c540b7a647.jpg
Beobloke
08-05-2018, 19:32
http://s.aliexpress.com/Jjuaq2uY?fromSns=Copy
Too far ? [emoji854]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180508/887ef0d45ee215ee3c2bf780e38b2c4a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180508/e0a54c15642b34073c9557c540b7a647.jpg
Well, at least the 'China Export' mark is nice and clear to see...
The secret is though, to hard-wire something in place that's decent
Not at all - you should use the cheapest, thinnest mains cable you can get away with., That way, only the strongest electrons will get through, thus improving your sound.
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 19:34
[emoji23]
Well, at least the 'China Export' mark is nice and clear to see...
Not at all - you should use the cheapest, thinnest mains cable you can get away with., That way, only the strongest electrons will get through, thus improving your sound.
Sound, I'll be very meticulous. Any recommendations for wiring before I go for the floating shield approach?
Should be fine - you can't beat a nice wee floater:eyebrows:
Marco.
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 19:37
Should be fine - you can't beat a nice wee floater:eyebrows:
Marco.[emoji41]
Your phone needs charging Oliver :D
Bigman80
08-05-2018, 20:21
Your phone needs charging Oliver :D[emoji3] its on now
I think that they can, but not for the reasons that are often touted in marketing. When I used to spend a lot more time building hifi bits I noticed that having a good low impedance grounding scheme could make a huge difference on performance. My current theory is that the special mains cables make a difference because they tend to provide better earth connections. Couple some good mains leads with a good block and chances are earth currents between equipment will be lower and any filtered noise can be delt with more effectively.
Also screened cables can help especially near phono stages. If you ever wave an oscilloscope probe near some mains cables you can quite easily see the pickup on the scope.
Cases protect against this noise, but you need a good solid ground connection scheme in order to get this noise away from the equipment.
Interested to see what you results you get with your experiments.
Paul
What are some simple things to do to implement a low impedance grounding scheme in a bog standard domestic settings? That is without ripping out ring mains or the like.
Additionally is there an easy way to measure things and from that work towards improvements?
Primalsea
08-05-2018, 22:16
A good start is to use a good quality mains block and mains leads as short as is feasible. A simple but limited way to measure is to use a multimeter to check for voltage differences of earth connections between different equipment. Without making it complicated you can check between metal casings if you can’t get to a mains earth directly. You can also measure between signal grounds without the interconnects connected. Ideally there should be no difference in voltage and this is the goal.
Its not a perfect way but its simple and should expose the bigger issues if they exist.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 14:41
I am sick of this bloody hobby.
I genuinely didn't believe a mains cable could have any effect lf the main PSU of the equipment was sufficient. How wrong was I!
How can a shielded mains cable improve the sound??????
Seems to me the Micro dynamics and separation of the instruments has improved whilst adding a further depth of dimension to the soundstage. Background seems quieter and further away.
I realise that this may not be a universal result but I'd recommend trying it.
Ingredients at the top of the thread. Took about 10 minutes to make and £60 all in. I'll be making more for the Monoblocks and I'll be putting one on the BMU too.
This hobby is Madness.
I
I realise that this may not be a universal result but I'd recommend trying it.
.
I did try it, made zero difference. See if you can tell the difference when you don't know if the fancy cable is in use or not before spending any more money on them. You might get another surprise.
It's easy to imagine improvements in things like soundstage and separation, as opposed to 'tonal' changes, because the harder you listen the more things you notice are going on. They were always there before, but you are listening differently because you are evaluating.
When I discovered that I could improve the soundstaging and micro detailing of my system just by thinking about it was when I gave up on these sort of tweaks.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 14:52
I've done it mate, I got the wife to swap them without me knowing which was in and I could tell, more importantly, so could she when I sat her in the chair.
The waybill could tell was in the bass. It's bigger and fuller. Better defined. I wish it wasn't true, believe me!
I did try it, made zero difference. See if you can tell the difference when you don't know if the fancy cable is in use or not before spending any more money on them. You might get another surprise.
It's easy to imagine improvements in things like soundstage and separation, as opposed to 'tonal' changes, because the harder you listen the more things you notice are going on. They were always there before, but you are listening differently because you are evaluating.
When I discovered that I could improve the soundstaging and micro detailing of my system just by thinking about it was when I gave up on these sort of tweaks.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 14:54
Foo or not foo cable, depending where you stand on it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/cfe2a937435c487d9acd6c8f72b8e1ba.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/2f02ed202d3b83d6aaebeff294897500.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/02014986f433beb3a5782ed54c16bcbf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/2a283c3acc77ed7560e184794811078c.jpg
I must have the only fancy mains cable in the world that does absolutely nothing special I suppose.
Ignore me, nowadays I'm not sure I would believe it even if I heard it myself :)
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 15:02
I must have the only fancy mains cable in the world that does absolutely nothing special I suppose.
Ignore me, nowadays I'm not sure I would believe it even if I heard it myself :)Hahaha no mate, you're right in your assesment based on your experience. My phonostage is a homebrew one so maybe that's why it's making a difference.
I'm not making a universal statement just that it's made a difference here. I'm glad I've tried it and I think it's worth an experiment if someone has 10 minutes and a spare £60 knocking about.
walpurgis
11-05-2018, 15:04
I must have the only fancy mains cable in the world that does absolutely nothing special I suppose.
Is it directional? Mine is, it goes from one end to the other. :)
Stryder5
11-05-2018, 15:06
[B][U]
I did try it, made zero difference. See if you can tell the difference when you don't know if the fancy cable is in use or not before spending any more money on them. You might get another surprise.
It's easy to imagine improvements in things like soundstage and separation, as opposed to 'tonal' changes, because the harder you listen the more things you notice are going on. They were always there before, but you are listening differently because you are evaluating.
When I discovered that I could improve the soundstaging and micro detailing of my system just by thinking about it was when I gave up on these sort of tweaks.
I am really interested in how hearing, listening and memory effect our experiences, I'm doing a little digging I'll probably post some information as I find it.
“Deep Listening explores the difference between hearing and listening. Though we receive sound waves through the ears these waves are transduced to electrical impulses by the mechanisms of the ear and transmitted to the brain where listening takes place. The ear does not listen – the brain listens.
Listening is a lifetime practice that depends on accumulated experiences with sound. Listening can be focused to detail or open to the entire field of sound. Listening still is a mysterious process that is not the same for everyone although we have consensual agreements on the interpretation of sound waves delivered to the brain by the ears. We know more about hearing than listening.”
– Pauline Oliveros, Deep Listening institute
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 15:11
That's cool. I'll be watching for further info on that.
Is it directional? Mine is, it goes from one end to the other. :)
It is, surprisingly, and it does look the business too so it's fair to say I was very disappointed not to hear any benefit.
I'd be happy to conclude that it was just me and that I am unable to hear the subtle improvements, which would not surprise me. But everyone else seems to have the 'Wife immediately asked me what I had done to the system' type changes so, frankly, I'm feeling a bit left out.
[B][U]
I am really interested in how hearing, listening and memory effect our experiences, I'm doing a little digging I'll probably post some information as I find it.
“Deep Listening explores the difference between hearing and listening. Though we receive sound waves through the ears these waves are transduced to electrical impulses by the mechanisms of the ear and transmitted to the brain where listening takes place. The ear does not listen – the brain listens.
Listening is a lifetime practice that depends on accumulated experiences with sound. Listening can be focused to detail or open to the entire field of sound. Listening still is a mysterious process that is not the same for everyone although we have consensual agreements on the interpretation of sound waves delivered to the brain by the ears. We know more about hearing than listening.”
– Pauline Oliveros, Deep Listening institute
I read somewhere that someone suggested while listening you imagine that instead of your usual system you are listening to an ultra high end system that cost £100,000 per component and see if your perception of how good it sounds changes. I tried that and it did indeed work, although you sort of had to keep the thought in your mind as if you didn't it went back to normal.
(Obviously if your system already cost £100K per item it won't work at all).
As it says in the quote, it's the brain that does the listening.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 16:03
It is, surprisingly, and it does look the business too so it's fair to say I was very disappointed not to hear any benefit.
I'd be happy to conclude that it was just me and that I am unable to hear the subtle improvements, which would not surprise me. But everyone else seems to have the 'Wife immediately asked me what I had done to the system' type changes so, frankly, I'm feeling a bit left out.Hahaha, shall I send mine round? On second thoughts...........[emoji848]
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 16:08
I read somewhere that someone suggested while listening you imagine that instead of your usual system you are listening to an ultra high end system that cost £100,000 per component and see if your perception of how good it sounds changes. I tried that and it did indeed work, although you sort of had to keep the thought in your mind as if you didn't it went back to normal.
(Obviously if your system already cost £100K per item it won't work at all).
As it says in the quote, it's the brain that does the listening.The brain can be tricked, I don't doubt that. Some people are more astute at listening than others. A few weeks back, Steve popped round with Alan and out of all the folks who'd been here, he's the only one that picked up on the fact I have a bass problem. There is a very boxed in corner by the left speaker due to two walls and a piano. He instantly recognised the bass imbalance. I was impressed with his level of hearing BUT I think you also need to know what to listen out for. He obviously did and helped me sort it out with some very simple ideas.
Everyone hears at different levels but knowing what to listen for is different to having great hearing.
Stryder5
11-05-2018, 16:10
What I am trying to explore is the ability to take suggestion and perception out of the equation, so it seems that hearing and listening could be differentials. Long or short term memory in musical context may also be involved.
Combinations of the above could contribute to the very polarized views that appear when discussing the original post topic.
The brain can be tricked, I don't doubt that. Some people are more astute at listening than others. A few weeks back, Steve popped round with Alan and out of all the folks who'd been here, he's the only one that picked up on the fact I have a bass problem. There is a very boxed in corner by the left speaker due to two walls and a piano. He instantly recognised the bass imbalance. I was impressed with his level of hearing BUT I think you also need to know what to listen out for. He obviously did and helped me sort it out with some very simple ideas.
Everyone hears at different levels but knowing what to listen for is different to having great hearing.
Very true. I've been at bake offs where someone says 'listen to that' pointing out a problem. I hadn't heard it but as soon as they point it out I hear it. If I was having an extended listen on my own then eventually I would also hear it without being prompted but I am always impressed by people who pick up on these things right away. As you say, it's experience, not golden ears.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 16:47
Very true. I've been at bake offs where someone says 'listen to that' pointing out a problem. I hadn't heard it but as soon as they point it out I hear it. If I was having an extended listen on my own then eventually I would also hear it without being prompted but I am always impressed by people who pick up on these things right away. As you say, it's experience, not golden ears.Yes it is. I was really impressed with Steve's assesment ability. Experience is key as you say. I presume anyone can learn what to lookout for but there has to be an ability to hear it in the first place.
You've also got the 'wood for the trees' situation where people are listening so hard for the micro details and so forth that they don't notice that the sound is shit. I've been in a room with about 8 other people and they are all enthusing about various aspects of the sound and I'm the only one thinking that I don't care that it captures the expression in her voice, the sound is hard with nasty distortion.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 17:07
You've also got the 'wood for the trees' situation where people are listening so hard for the micro details and so forth that they don't notice that the sound is shit. I've been in a room with about 8 other people and they are all enthusing about various aspects of the sound and I'm the only one thinking that I don't care that it captures the expression in her voice, the sound is hard with nasty distortion.Very true. This hobby, It's a nightmare!
It can be. But I find being jaded and cynical helps enormously ;)
I've done it mate, I got the wife to swap them without me knowing which was in and I could tell, more importantly, so could she when I sat her in the chair.
The waybill could tell was in the bass. It's bigger and fuller. Better defined. I wish it wasn't true, believe me!
Any chance of a photo of the other, 'inferior' cable?
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 17:21
Sure!
Any chance of a photo of the other, 'inferior' cable?Standard kettle lead from France with replacement IEC (German one brass connections) and Standard UK plug.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/8b7489de9a5c573680bb8d8ec6866a53.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/0f5befc375bd57e570def4078946bc24.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/b42d14d2ebda4781af684adab3dfc43b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/eb4a82b37b63f1a2f6f47ae3fae24faf.jpg
The old cable looks to be longer than the new one. Have you tried polishing the pins with Duraglit and/or swapping/reversing the fuses, which I assume are of equal rating?
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 17:40
The old cable looks to be longer than the new one. Have you tried polishing the pins with Duraglit and/or swapping/reversing the fuses, which I assume are of equal rating?The cable is a little longer but the pic is deceptive due to the lack of flexibility in the Belden stuff.
Same rated fuse and yes all contacts in the IEC were cleaned as standard by. The manufacturer. The UK plug, no just as is from Do it all about 20 years ago.
It is, surprisingly, and it does look the business too so it's fair to say I was very disappointed not to hear any benefit.
I'd be happy to conclude that it was just me and that I am unable to hear the subtle improvements, which would not surprise me. But everyone else seems to have the 'Wife immediately asked me what I had done to the system' type changes so, frankly, I'm feeling a bit left out.
Do you even have a wife?
Not just any old wife, but one that has been calibrated against the Reference Wife held by the UK National Physical Laboratory.
walpurgis
11-05-2018, 19:47
Not just any old wife, but one that has been calibrated against the Reference Wife held by the UK National Physical Laboratory.
I tried to get mine rated by the National Institute of Bag Ladies, but they rejected her.
Nice one, Oliver - looks good, and I'm glad you can hear a genuine difference! :thumbsup:
For me, using mains leads that are properly designed for hi-fi purposes, such as you've now built, is simply a case of 'good housekeeping', in the same way as we don't use the 'freebie' interconnects that sometimes come supplied with gear, or no longer hook up our speakers with bell wire, as there are clearly better alternatives available.
And the same applies with mains cables, proving that you *can* do better than cheap 'kettle leads'. I've really no idea why some folk struggle so much with that concept - certainly those who are clearly capable of trusting their ears and making subjective assessments/decisions elsewhere in their system;)
Anyway mate, ignore the naysayers, trust your OWN ears and senses (always over ALL else), and enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
11-05-2018, 21:06
Nice one, Oliver - looks good, and I'm glad you can hear a genuine difference! [emoji106]
For me, using mains leads that are properly designed for hi-fi purposes, such as you've now built, is simply a case of 'good housekeeping', in the same way as we don't use the 'freebie' interconnects that sometimes come supplied with gear, or no longer hook up our speakers with bell wire, as there are clearly better alternatives available.
And the same applies with mains cables, proving that you *can* do better than use cheap 'kettle leads'. I've really no idea why some folk struggle so much with that concept - certainly those who are clearly capable of trusting their ears and making subjective decisions elsewhere in their system;)
Anyway mate, ignore the naysayers, trust your OWN ears and senses (always over ALL else), and enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.Thanks, Marco.
I really didn't want to hear any change as that's better for my bank account but here, it's clear that there is an improvement, not just a change. I spent probably 4 hours today playing music and swapping the cable in and out and yet every time I took it out, I could hear what went with it. Blind tests with the help of the gaffer just reassured me that it wasn't bias so I am happy with the result.
Purpose built. If any one wants one building.........just kidding [emoji6]
It's an absolute doddle.
MasterTape
14-05-2018, 23:38
I had an interesting experience recently having never tried or even thought of a mains upgrade.
I have a Brio-R that I tried to upgrade to a Hegel Röst. It became clear quickly that it wasn't for me, but I wanted to like it and kept plugging it in for a short while now and then to play around with speaker positioning etc.
One day, as usual, I get fed up with the sterile Hegel and plug the Brio in to enjoy some music for the evening. I sit down, hit play and my attention is immediately drawn to a guitar track at the beginning of a familiar song. There should be no reverb tail revealed with the Rega, but I am hearing it loud and clear. I spend half a second ticking off a mental checklist until the thought of power cables enters my mind and what do you know, upon inspection I have plugged the Röst's lead into the Brio by mistake.
I listen to a few more tracks to form a reference, switch back to the lead of the Rega and yes, the difference in noise floor and thus detail is substantial.
I decided to try a lower end lead and ended up with a used Supra LoRad SPC (£30) and I consider it my most cost effective upgrade.
What do I think is going on?
The Brio is a cheap amp. There is no money to spend on a decently constructed mains lead. The Röst has more flex and I would guess they went for something with a reasonable shield. I can't explain an immediate difference in noise floor in any other way.
To further confirm this - If I switch the Röst's default chord to the Supra with the Röst, the difference is noticeable but subtle. Nothing like the dramatic effect it had on the Brio, and if anything the higher resolving Röst should make the case more clear.
I don't think you can add anything with a mains lead, but you probably should make sure you're above some basic threshold in terms of keeping crap out.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 07:59
Of course mains cables make not just a "difference", but a major improvement in sound quality and anyone who disagrees is in denial.
There is a rational explanation for this and it is so obvious I am amazed there is any argument about it at all.
A mains cables isn't just there to convey leccy from the wall socket without spilling it on the carpet while doing so, it is the means by which the hi-fi system gets all it''s power that it needs, so a cheap "freebie" cable costing mere pennies to manufacture has inherent limitations from the outset. The build quality, metallurgy and dimensions of the wire can be variable, the connectors too leave a lot to be desired as well, so when your system needs more power to perform the cheapo cable responds by limiting the current it can deliver and reacts by heating up.
That is the starting point in the debate, so when you replace it with a "better" cable, what you are actually doing is taking the substandard cable OUT and installing a cable that has better current delivery characteristics. As you move up the mains cable heirarchy the same rule still applies in that each upgrade you make moves further away from that cheapo basic cable and "better" than the one you have just replaced, with less imperfections at each step upwards although none of them are perfect because that cable simply does not exist.
walpurgis
15-05-2018, 08:05
Of course mains cables make not just a "difference", but a major improvement in sound quality and anyone who disagrees is in denial.
Some might take exception to the bit in bold.
Have you compared the current delivery abilities of a standard kettle lead to a fancy 'audiophile' mains cable? Is there a study anywhere into these characteristics? I'd have thought a kettle boiling water would demand more current than any normal piece of Hi-Fi equipment.
Post of the year for me, so far, Andreas! :clap: Especially your last sentence, which neatly sums things up:
I don't think you can add anything with a mains lead, but you probably should make sure you're above some basic threshold in terms of keeping crap out.
Indeed. That's the reason why ones properly designed for hi-fi purposes, where due attention has been paid to shielding, etc, make a difference, and audibly improve upon what's offered by a bog-standard 'kettle lead'.
The naysayers are simply looking at the wrong area (basic electrical theory) for why such genuine audible differences exist, when reality suggests it's all (or mostly) about reducing noise!
However, of course results will vary from system to system (and mains to mains), depending on how much of said noise is present, and therefore needs addressing. That's probably why some people hear differences, and some don't, although I also think there's an element of knowing what to listen for (in the music), if there isn't much noise to address, and therefore the difference provided by an 'audiophile mains lead' is small.
The way you discovered the existence of that difference in your system is most interesting, simply because you weren't consciously 'testing' yourself for it, as is normally the case, when one buys an 'audiophile mains lead' and compares it directly against a bog-standard 'kettle lead'. You heard it completely by accident, when you weren't expecting it! And that, for me, proves it was real :)
Also, as you correctly say, the difference between your Supra and the Röst was subtle, which is exactly as it should have been, because the Röst had already addressed most of the noise issue, and so any further benefit brought about by the Supra, perhaps due to its superior shielding and/or materials its constructed from (wire, plugs used, etc) was simply 'icing on the cake'.
The above is really the only reason why mains leads designed for hi-fi purposes can make a difference, and so the better they fulfill that purpose (as outlined above), and the noisier the environment they're used in, the more of a difference you're likely to hear.
Most of their benefits, however, can be achieved without spending ludicrous amounts of money, as long as the mains lead you're using tackles the right (problem) areas, rather than simply looking like an audiophile's 'wet dream', with a price tag that would befit the cost of a full (top-notch) system!;)
Enjoy your music, my friend :cool:
Marco.
Some might take exception to the bit in bold.
Have you compared the current delivery abilities of a standard kettle lead to a fancy 'audiophile' mains cable? Is there a study anywhere into these characteristics? I'd have thought a kettle boiling water would demand more current than any normal piece of Hi-Fi equipment.
Indeed. Let's not stray into any form of absolutism or make rude judgements on people.
Whilst I agree (in part) with Dominic's post, I don't think that the main reason why genuine differences are heard with mains leads, designed for hi-fi purposes, is to do with current delivery, but rather with shielding and reducing noise, such as RFI.
Basically, the more your mains lead acts as an aerial for noise, the worse it will make the equipment it powers sound.
Marco.
narabdela
15-05-2018, 08:25
Of course mains cables make not just a "difference", but a major improvement in sound quality and anyone who disagrees is in denial.
...or they might possibly be a discerning person, possessed of common sense and a working knowledge of Basic Electrical Theory and Practical Physics. :hmm:
( "possibly" for Marco's benefit. :) )
Lol - the problem is, as I said, I don't think the answers lie in Basic Electrical Theory and Practical Physics [which in matters such as this, objectivists often seek to apply in too 'black and white' a way], certainly in the most obvious conventional sense, but rather in tackling the issue of noise.
As ever in audio, it pays to apply a little lateral thinking! ;)
Marco.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 08:39
Some might take exception to the bit in bold.
Have you compared the current delivery abilities of a standard kettle lead to a fancy 'audiophile' mains cable? Is there a study anywhere into these characteristics? I'd have thought a kettle boiling water would demand more current than any normal piece of Hi-Fi equipment.
Let's not confuse a kettle lead with a freebie computer mains cable - they are poles apart.
The kettle lead can deliver a constant current for the kettle to boil, whereas the freebie lead is usually destined for computers and such-like which have considerably less continuous current demands.
In the hi-fi context then a proper *kettle lead* sounds better than a freebie low power *computer lead* which is what is given away for free in the box.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 08:48
The absolute start of the debate is how poor a 5 amp IEC lead that cost just pennies to make, not how "wonderful" an upgrade cable is and it is pointless squabbling any more until and unless that is grasped.
I busted open one of these cheapo leads a few years ago and was mortified at just how flimsy it was. The wire was less than 0.5mm in diameter and was blackened rather heavily, there was no solder or screw holding the wire onto the terminals in the moulded plugs. Never used one since.
walpurgis
15-05-2018, 08:50
Let's not confuse a kettle lead with a freebie computer mains cable - they are poles apart.
The kettle lead can deliver a constant current for the kettle to boil, whereas the freebie lead is usually destined for computers and such-like which have considerably less continuous current demands.
In the hi-fi context then a proper *kettle lead* sounds better than a freebie low power *computer lead* which is what is given away for free in the box.
So if I plug a "computer lead" into a kettle, what may happen?
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 08:53
Indeed. Let's not stray into any form of absolutism or make judgements on people.
Whilst I agree (in part) with Dominic's post, I don't think that the main reason why genuine differences are heard with mains leads, designed for hi-fi purposes, is to do with current delivery, but rather with shielding and reducing noise, such as RFI.
Basically, the more your mains lead acts as an aerial for noise, the worse it will make the equipment it powers sound.
Marco.
I'm just trying to figure out what level of external interference would have the power to penetrate and be induced upon a cable carrying mains voltages, shielding or no shielding.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 08:54
So if I plug a "computer lead" into a kettle, what may happen?
The fuse should rupture.
walpurgis
15-05-2018, 09:01
A typical kettle takes between about 1.5kW and 3kW. That's a lot more than most hi-fi power amps. It's maybe 100 times as much as a pre-amp or phonostage needs.
If audiophile mains leads make a difference it's not due simply to their current carrying capacity.
That's why I asked.
The mains cables used to power hi-fi equipment are not "kettle leads"! The mains cables for hi-fi are defined by IEC 60320 and are designated C13 (plug) and C14 (socket).
The mains cables used for kettles are designated C15 and C16 and are designed for "hot conditions".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320
Sure, calling such a 'kettle lead' is simply a figure of speech, solely in reference to its appearance and the fact that it uses (as old kettles did) an IEC plug.
What I'm referring to is the cheap crap Dominic has mentioned, versus anything that's been designed better (for hi-fi purposes), in the areas he refers to, and specifically which tackles the issue of noise interference, such as RFI, through the introduction of effective shielding.
That is, by definition, a 'mains cable designed for hi-fi purposes'.
Marco.
MasterTape
15-05-2018, 09:07
I'm just trying to figure out what level of external interference would have the power to penetrate and be induced upon a cable carrying mains voltages, shielding or no shielding.
I'm not convinced there is much of such an effect. Another possible reason why I find bigger differences in my humble Brio than in my Hegel might be that the Brio is very crowded due to its small size. The mains lead sits within a couple of centimeters of all four speaker cables, and the interconnects are not much further away.
A shielded mains lead might not even be advisable unless the radiation of the lead happens to affect nearby low voltage signals, which it likely does in the case of the Brio.
Wakefield Turntables
15-05-2018, 09:19
Do you ever feel these threads just keep going around the same old circle?
Hi-fi connectors are C13 type. Kettle connectors are C15 type. They're different shapes. A C13 connector will not fit into a socket designed for a C15 connector.
Lol - now you're just being pedantic!:D
;)
Marco.
I'm not convinced there is much of such an effect.
Ah - well there we disagree. I think it *can* be significant, and I've experienced the effect many times. It's one of the reasons why so many filters exist on the market to combat it.
So what would you proffer as the reason why the mains lead supplied with your Hegel improved the sound of your Brio - and fairly significantly, too?
Marco.
narabdela
15-05-2018, 09:42
As ever in audio, it pays to apply a little lateral thinking! ;)
Marco.
Mmm. I'll have to search out a response as good as the ones for "having an open mind". :fence:
MasterTape
15-05-2018, 10:26
Ah - well there we disagree. I think it *can* be significant, and I've experienced the effect many times. It's one of the reasons why so many filters exist on the market to combat it.
So what would you proffer as the reason why the mains lead supplied with your Hegel improved the sound of your Brio - and fairly significantly, too?
Marco.
I feel we maybe drifted away form apples to apples here? The issue of polluted power out of the plug =//= the effects of mains cable shielding, no? :)
Well, if I eye my setup I see a clean tidy end of the room without sources of interference. You'll have your usual WiFi networks zipping about but all in all there are no obvious offenders outside of the setup itself.
The streamer draws no current. The Dac draws no current. We're left with the amp that at least draws some current and its mains lead should stand for the vast majority of the interference potential I reckon. It also sits awfully close to speaker cables and interconnects due to the form factor of the amp.
I'd wager the bigger factor in this case isn't shielding from outside noise, but keeping the interference emitting from the mains lead itself from affecting the lower level signals that travel right next to it.
I have no other way of explaining why the Röst would exhibit smaller differences when switching cables despite being the higher resolving machine.
Bigman80
15-05-2018, 11:01
Seeing as we're discussing this topic, I decided to see whether the same improvement was possible with other equipment.
I plugged the power cable into the DAC and whilst I do feel the soundstage benefits from it being in over the standard cable, I don't feel the improvements are as great as when I put it into the phonostage.
There's an improvement to the bottom end which sounds cleaner and better defined but other than that it's really not a discernable difference.
I really do think it's down to the sensitivity of the equipment in all honesty. I'll build a cable for the DAC because It has made a small difference.
Also checked my plug socket and yes, I was using the LH side anyway. Good stuff.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 15:05
The mains cables used to power hi-fi equipment are not "kettle leads"! The mains cables for hi-fi are defined by IEC 60320 and are designated C13 (plug) and C14 (socket).
The mains cables used for kettles are designated C15 and C16 and are designed for "hot conditions".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320
A typical kettle takes between about 1.5kW and 3kW. That's a lot more than most hi-fi power amps. It's maybe 100 times as much as a pre-amp or phonostage needs.
If audiophile mains leads make a difference it's not due simply to their current carrying capacity.
That's why we are having a discussion about the subject to see if anyone has an explanation.
My take on it is metallurgy plays a major part, especially so when we are talking about OHNO casting and pure silver. The what, why and when is beyond my knowledge.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 15:45
I also do not subscribe to the notion that any mains cable is capable of resisting or rejecting any inbound electrical interference. Any such interference would have to make your teeth fillings glow long before it could enter an active mains cable.
As for outbound energy from a mains cable there is plenty from the EMF energy travelling along it and when an EMF meter is held up to it the needle swings at full deflection at the 'nodes' along the cable's length, around every 40cm or so. Copper and steel braiding offers zero resistance to that EMF energy no matter how dense the weave is, so that is almost purely ornamental.
. The what, why and when is beyond my knowledge.
It's beyond anyone's knowledge which is one of the reasons why people are so sceptical about the claims of improved sound quality.
The other reason is that they have probably tried a fancy mains lead for themselves and heard no improvement whatsoever.
The other reason is that they have probably tried a fancy mains lead for themselves and heard no improvement whatsoever.
What for you is defined as a "fancy mains lead" - would the likes of what Oliver has just built qualify as such?:)
Marco.
I also do not subscribe to the notion that any mains cable is capable of resisting or rejecting any inbound electrical interference.
There we disagree then, which is fine, as it's all about opinions.
Marco.
Well, if I eye my setup I see a clean tidy end of the room without sources of interference. You'll have your usual WiFi networks zipping about but all in all there are no obvious offenders outside of the setup itself.
In my experience, that's a big part of the problem, combined with the crap, devices such as routers and Sky boxes [with their cheap SMPS units] chuck into the house mains supply - and a well-designed, screened mains lead, built for hi-fi purposes, can often help combat said interference.
I'd wager the bigger factor in this case isn't shielding from outside noise, but keeping the interference emitting from the mains lead itself from affecting the lower level signals that travel right next to it.
That certainly will have a bearing on matters, and it's why you should always keep mains and signal-carrying cables as far apart as possible. I always ensure that's the case in my system. It an integral part of the 'cable dressing' procedure I adopt when setting up a system.
Marco.
Bigman80
15-05-2018, 16:58
No mine is a poor man's version. This one is fancy
https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/audioquest-nrg-wel-signature-series-mains-power-cable.html
What for you is a "fancy mains lead" - would the likes of what Oliver has just built qualify as such?:)
Marco.
One that claims to be able to change/improve the sound. So I guess that Oliver's qualifies. I would like to be able to hear this improvement for myself, if no other reason than I like mysteries. If I heard an improvement for myself I would be happy to say so even if I still ascribed the reason to be purely psychological, since that is still interesting in its own way. Not hearing it is boring.
The one I have cost me £25 second-hand. But I have no way of knowing if it has 'the magic ingredients' of the ones that people do say make a difference since even the manufacturers of these leads don't seem to know what they are. (The bollocks explanations written in their advertising blurbs is the giveaway to that). Believe me I would be very happy with an improvement in sound quality that only cost £25 and simply involved me swapping one lead for another.
Sadly I'm a little limited in my ability to experiment now since the Krell has to be used with the power lead that came with it and the pre amp is passive. And my Sony ES cd player has a captive lead. I do use it with the Technics CD player when it's in the system. Maybe I'll try swapping cables on that again, the power amp and speakers have changed since last time I experimented in that direction so who knows?
Bigman80
15-05-2018, 17:09
One that claims to be able to change/improve the sound. So I guess that Oliver's qualifies. I would like to be able to hear this improvement for myself, if no other reason than I like mysteries. If I heard an improvement for myself I would be happy to say so even if I still ascribed the reason to be purely psychological, since that is still interesting in its own way. Not hearing it is boring.
The one I have cost me £25 second-hand. But I have no way of knowing if it has 'the magic ingredients' of the ones that people do say make a difference since even the manufacturers of these leads don't seem to know what they are. (The bollocks explanations written in their advertising blurbs is the giveaway to that). Believe me I would be very happy with an improvement in sound quality that only cost £25 and simply involved me swapping one lead for another.
Sadly I'm a little limited in my ability to experiment now since the Krell has to be used with the power lead that came with it and the pre amp is passive. And my Sony ES cd player has a captive lead. I do use it with the Technics CD player when it's in the system. Maybe I'll try swapping cables on that again, the power amp and speakers have changed since last time I experimented in that direction so who knows?There wasn't a big a difference when I plugged it into the DAC so I am sure the equipment is the biggest factor in the area.
Oddly, when I took it out of the DAC, to use on the Phonostage, I decided to give the factory cable another try. I missed the expensive one pretty quickly as I felt the lower frequencies benefit from it. The bass seemed fuller and deeper but as you say, this could be psychological BUT I now want to put one on the DAC So if I'm fooling myself then so be it.
Mad this hobby is.
Primalsea
15-05-2018, 17:13
In my experience, that's a big part of the problem, combined with the crap, devices such as routers and Sky boxes [with their cheap SMPS units] chuck into the house mains supply - and a well-designed, shielded mains lead, built for hi-fi purposes, can often help combat said interference.
That certainly will have a bearing on matters, and it's why you should always keep mains and signal-carrying cables as far apart as possible. I always ensure that's the case in my system. It an integral part of the 'cable dressing' procedure I adopt when setting up a system.
Marco.
Common mode noise is delt with by cancellation but non common mode noise is delt with by being dumped on to the ground earth. People often think of earth as being some magical blackhole of a perfect 0 volts that can just absorb anything and make it disappear. Earth wires are very likely to have some voltage differential across them and not just mains AC but noise too. I think that good sheilding connected to a good earth connection will be beneficial.
Primalsea
15-05-2018, 17:20
There wasn't a big a difference when I plugged it into the DAC so I am sure the equipment is the biggest factor in the area.
Oddly, when I took it out of the DAC, to use on the Phonostage, I decided to give the factory cable another try. I missed the expensive one pretty quickly as I felt the lower frequencies benefit from it. The bass seemed fuller and deeper but as you say, this could be psychological BUT I now want to put one on the DAC So if I'm fooling myself then so be it.
Mad this hobby is.
In the past I haved changed something and thought that I could discern a difference but nothing huge. With continued listening I have just not enjoyed listening to the hifi since the change was made, so I have reverted back and felt that things were better, although could not really place exactly what was difference. In these cases I tend to randomly make the change back and forth every few days/weeks until I have a consensus. Sometimes it is worth just taking time to try to work out what difference is being made, I feel.
Bigman80
15-05-2018, 17:23
That's a very good method. I'll see how I feel after a few days and report back.
In the past I haved changed something and thought that I could discern a difference but nothing huge. With continued listening I have just not enjoyed listening to the hifi since the change was made, so I have reverted back and felt that things were better, although could not really place exactly what was difference. In these cases I tend to randomly make the change back and forth every few days/weeks until I have a consensus. Sometimes it is worth just taking time to try to work out what difference is being made, I feel.
There wasn't a big a difference when I plugged it into the DAC so I am sure the equipment is the biggest factor in the area.
Oddly, when I took it out of the DAC, to use on the Phonostage, I decided to give the factory cable another try. I missed the expensive one pretty quickly as I felt the lower frequencies benefit from it. The bass seemed fuller and deeper but as you say, this could be psychological BUT I now want to put one on the DAC So if I'm fooling myself then so be it.
Mad this hobby is.
The joy of anything subjective (like perceived sound quality) is that it doesn't matter that you are fooling yourself, unless fooling yourself makes the experience worse.
I tried putting those little washing machine feet under a solid state power amp once. Simple, cheap tweak. I quickly took them out again, I was convinced that the sound was subtly worse. Convinced enough to get up, walk the length of the room and remove them. Then I was convinced it sounded better without them. And I mean I was convinced. However at the same time I also know that feet in or out it is not affecting the performance of the power amp one jot. There is zero rational explanation for there being a real effect. Yet I could not help hearing the sound subtly change for the worse with the feet in situ.
And bear in mind this was supposed to be a positive tweak, albeit a silly one. My expectation was that I would hear no difference.
It isn't the hobby that is mad it is our brains. They do their own thing. It's scary but it is true.
MasterTape
15-05-2018, 17:34
I also do not subscribe to the notion that any mains cable is capable of resisting or rejecting any inbound electrical interference. Any such interference would have to make your teeth fillings glow long before it could enter an active mains cable.
As for outbound energy from a mains cable there is plenty from the EMF energy travelling along it and when an EMF meter is held up to it the needle swings at full deflection at the 'nodes' along the cable's length, around every 40cm or so. Copper and steel braiding offers zero resistance to that EMF energy no matter how dense the weave is, so that is almost purely ornamental.
The Supra cables (which have the shield connected to ground, creating a Faraday cage) are used by air forces, laboratories, hospitals, flight command towers. Basically in areas where slight manipulation of signals as a result of interference exiting or entering the cable is to be avoided at all costs. Are these customers susceptible to snake oil you think? :)
Bigman80
15-05-2018, 17:40
That's very true. We are all mad [emoji23][emoji23]
The joy of anything subjective (like perceived sound quality) is that it doesn't matter that you are fooling yourself, unless fooling yourself makes the experience worse.
I tried putting those little washing machine feet under a solid state power amp once. Simple, cheap tweak. I quickly took them out again, I was convinced that the sound was subtly worse. Convinced enough to get up, walk the length of the room and remove them. Then I was convinced it sounded better without them. And I mean I was convinced. However at the same time I also know that feet in or out it is not affecting the performance of the power amp one jot. There is zero rational explanation for there being a real effect. Yet I could not help hearing the sound subtly change for the worse with the feet in situ.
And bear in mind this was supposed to be a positive tweak, albeit a silly one. My expectation was that I would hear no difference.
It isn't the hobby that is mad it is our brains. They do their own thing. It's scary but it is true.
One that claims to be able to change/improve the sound. So I guess that Oliver's qualifies.
Ok, so by that token, would you view any interconnects, claimed to change/improve the sound over the 'freebie' ones sometimes supplied with equipment, as "fancy interconnects", ditto with speaker cable, which is claimed to be a step up from bell wire?:)
Marco.
Ok, so by that token, would you view any interconnects, claimed to change/improve the sound over the 'freebie' ones sometimes supplied with equipment, as "fancy interconnects", ditto with speaker cable, which is claimed to be a step up from bell wire?:)
Marco.
I've no doubt that some of the differences I have heard in interconnects or speaker cables have been imaginary. But it is possible for those things to sound different, you can deliberately make them sound different. Not only that but plenty of people have passed ABX tests on these items. Even James Randi chickened out of offering his million quid when someone told him that there is actually a difference between some cables. He then had to specify that you had to take the challenge using his selection of cables...
They are conveying the signal that you are eventually going to hear, the mains cable isn't. You are comparing apples and oranges.
nonuffin
15-05-2018, 18:26
There we disagree then, which is fine, as it's all about opinions.
Marco.
I like disagreements and contra opinions because they can be very fertile thinking grounds provided they are discussed rationally with an end purpose :)
There is no argument from me that the average domestic situation can contain all sorts of undesirable 'radiations' like wi-fi, mobile phone signals, cordless phones and mains borne crap from central heatng and washing machines, etc., but the average wi-fi system operates at milliwatt levels, so too does cordless phones and my thinking says they would have to be many hundreds of times stronger to actually energise a mains cable with 240 volts AC already residing there. I do get buzzing noises from the hi-fi if I leave my mobile phone on the rack, but still sceptical that the mains lead is the entry point of that interference.
As for mains borne noise from washing machines and such-like, I fail to see how three straight lengths of wire can actively eradicate that.
Primalsea
15-05-2018, 18:28
The joy of anything subjective (like perceived sound quality) is that it doesn't matter that you are fooling yourself, unless fooling yourself makes the experience worse.
I tried putting those little washing machine feet under a solid state power amp once. Simple, cheap tweak. I quickly took them out again, I was convinced that the sound was subtly worse. Convinced enough to get up, walk the length of the room and remove them. Then I was convinced it sounded better without them. And I mean I was convinced. However at the same time I also know that feet in or out it is not affecting the performance of the power amp one jot. There is zero rational explanation for there being a real effect. Yet I could not help hearing the sound subtly change for the worse with the feet in situ.
And bear in mind this was supposed to be a positive tweak, albeit a silly one. My expectation was that I would hear no difference.
It isn't the hobby that is mad it is our brains. They do their own thing. It's scary but it is true.
You could well have caused a detrimental effect by the addition of the feet. You may have put the amp or something in the amp to a point of resonance where vibrations much stronger than before where being caused by transformer vibrations or by the music. Vibration can effect electrical components, especially those that rely on physical distances, such as capacitor plates, or components close to magnetic fields.
You could well have caused a detrimental effect by the addition of the feet. You may have put the amp or something in the amp to a point of resonance where vibrations much stronger than before where being caused by transformer vibrations or by the music. Vibration can effect electrical components, especially those that rely on physical distances, such as capacitor plates, or components close to magnetic fields.
An interesting conjecture. I suppose it is not impossible but it does seem very unlikely to be true. Whereas the psychological explanation is highly likely to be true.
Pieoftheday
15-05-2018, 21:40
Well I'm with Jez on this:)
Perhaps HI-FI is a disclosing agent/litmus test for the insanity of the human condition.
Would think the connections will be the main issue here. The more superior the fittings and their tolerance will cause better responses, and fuses will come into this side of things.
Hard wiring will be best followed by best of above. Clean, stable mains is next, although filters can cause more issues than they solve dynamics wise
These 2 issues are linked closer than you may think
Seeing as we're discussing this topic, I decided to see whether the same improvement was possible with other equipment.
I plugged the power cable into the DAC and whilst I do feel the soundstage benefits from it being in over the standard cable, I don't feel the improvements are as great as when I put it into the phonostage.
There's an improvement to the bottom end which sounds cleaner and better defined but other than that it's really not a discernable difference.
I really do think it's down to the sensitivity of the equipment in all honesty. I'll build a cable for the DAC because It has made a small difference.
Also checked my plug socket and yes, I was using the LH side anyway. Good stuff.
Now to send you really round the bend with this subject. Try a 4mm sq mains cable on your power amps and your preamp, then swap the preamp to a 2.5mm sq mains cable (shielded of course) and listen to the difference. My preamp sounded worse with a 4mm sq cable than a 2.5mm cable.
What's going on there?
An interesting conjecture. I suppose it is not impossible but it does seem very unlikely to be true. Whereas the psychological explanation is highly likely to be true.
That's fair enough. At which point though, do you simply trust your ears and believe what you heard was true, lest you go through life in a permanent state of doubt, shunning the existence of everything that can't be 'proven', and as a result learning nothing new?
All that does is stifle progress.
Marco.
Bigman80
16-05-2018, 07:07
Now to send you really round the bend with this subject. Try a 4mm sq mains cable on your power amps and your preamp, then swap the preamp to a 2.5mm sq mains cable (shielded of course) and listen to the difference. My preamp sounded worse with a 4mm sq cable than a 2.5mm cable.
What's going on there?Lol, I've ventured far enough into this rabbit hole. £60 for a mains cable is about as far as I'm willing to go so I'm going to trust your findings implicitly [emoji23]
I've no doubt that some of the differences I have heard in interconnects or speaker cables have been imaginary. But it is possible for those things to sound different, you can deliberately make them sound different. Not only that but plenty of people have passed ABX tests on these items.
They are conveying the signal that you are eventually going to hear, the mains cable isn't. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Not really. In my experience, *everything* in a hi-fi system matters (and therefore potentially makes a difference), so I'd no sooner use 'freebie interconnects' or bell wire, than I would a poorly designed and constructed mains lead, which for me isn't fit for purpose.
Marco.
That's fair enough. At which point though, do you simply trust your ears and believe what you heard was true, lest you go through life in a permanent state of doubt, shunning the existence of everything that can't be 'proven', and as a result learning nothing new?
All that does is stifle progress.
Marco.
On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress. If you don't know how it works then you can't improve on it, except by chance.
There's plenty of times that a difference is pretty obvious and there's no question that the sound has changed. Then there's those occasions where we think we hear a subtle change. It's only in those latter situations that we have to question what we think we hear. Especially if there is no credible reason for there being any change.
We have to acknowledge that we can be fooled by our senses because it is a fact that we can be.
To me that is the practical and realistic approach. Imagination Land is not a good place to be putting a hi-fi system together or doing anything else, for that matter.
I like disagreements and contra opinions because they can be very fertile thinking grounds provided they are discussed rationally with an end purpose...
Me too, and in that respect I'm enjoying your contributions so far:)
There is no argument from me that the average domestic situation can contain all sorts of undesirable 'radiations' like wi-fi, mobile phone signals, cordless phones and mains borne crap from central heatng and washing machines, etc., but the average wi-fi system operates at milliwatt levels, so too does cordless phones and my thinking says they would have to be many hundreds of times stronger to actually energise a mains cable with 240 volts AC already residing there.
Your thinking in that instance may be right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that mains leads aren't acting in some other way as a conduit for interference, which is ultimately detrimental to the sound of your hi-fi system, or that introducing effective shielding doesn't help address it.
All I know is that since I've taken steps to tackle forms of airborne and electrically induced/mains-borne noise, via judicious cable selection, both power and signal orientated, and optimised my mains set-up accordingly, my system has never sounded better.
For me, it's also no coincidence that those who've done the same, and paid proper attention to the 'infrastructure' of their system, generally always have the best sounding systems.
At the end of the day, experience tells me that the devil is always in the details!;)
Marco.
On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress.
But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either.
I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.
For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...;)
Therefore, I'm asking at what point, after being confident that you know how something works (as far as possible), and having researched the 'facts', do you simply trust your ears, even if what you're hearing appears to contradict it?
Essentially it comes down to this:
At what point could "imagination land" become reality if, despite seemingly being disproved by currently accepted wisdom, what you're hearing was true?
Marco.
Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?
Marco.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 08:59
But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either. I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.
For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...;)
Marco.
I was going to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that your mains leads were doing their bit to keep the interference gremlins out of your system. 20 years of experiment and observation obviously works well for you and being right or wrong gives me no cause to challenge what you have said or your actions in arriving at that. My experience differs from that I will admit, but I must respect your opinion accordingly, as we might both be right without realising it.
Lol, I've ventured far enough into this rabbit hole. £60 for a mains cable is about as far as I'm willing to go so I'm going to trust your findings implicitly [emoji23]
But if you get chance sometime just try a 4mm sq section cable vs a 2.5mm sq on your preamp and listen to the difference. The 4mm killed mine!:)
Bigman80
16-05-2018, 09:17
Will do Jim.
I was going to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that your mains leads were doing their bit to keep the interference gremlins out of your system. 20 years of experiment and observation obviously works well for you and being right or wrong gives me no cause to challenge what you have said or your actions in arriving at that. My experience differs from that I will admit, but I must respect your opinion accordingly, as we might both be right without realising it.
Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.
For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought, which I'm vehemently against.
Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?
For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.
There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system, and blindly obeying text books, is no way to learn.
Marco.
Primalsea
16-05-2018, 09:30
An interesting conjecture. I suppose it is not impossible but it does seem very unlikely to be true. Whereas the psychological explanation is highly likely to be true.
While not as prevalent or as dratic as marketing departments would have you believe, I think you’d be surprised how likely such things can be. I do agree that you can more than likely just be convincing yourself of a difference. Thats why if I feel a minor change has made a difference good or bad I tend to leave it in place for at least a few days, to see how it bears out and then revert back and see how that goes for a few days and then repeat. I find that building the consensus over time helps counter the potential to be just convincing yourself of a difference.
The Black Adder
16-05-2018, 09:31
Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.
For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought, which I'm vehemently against.
Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?
For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.
There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system, and blindly obeying text books, is no way to learn.
Marco.
Indeed. As we all know, Hifi isn't a static entity, it's constantly changing and like music itself people need to open up and try different things but at the same time initiate a degree of 'caveat emptor' about some products on the market costing bonkers money.
IME mains cables can make a difference but not all agree. Just as long as people have tried and have an educated (yet open) opinion I don't mind... Standing back behind the line slinging mud is just useless.
When I moved from standard leads to Mark Grant cables I was really surprised. Once that became the norm I tried others but the effect wasn't as profound. My next move is to get kitted out with some Furuwakky stuff. :) - I've tried one cable and heard a good difference but IME the real magic is when all of your cables are replaced... :)
Pretty much everything other than power cables makes more of a difference in HiFi, so it's one of the last things to look at IMO. For example, spending £50 or so on some well thought out decoupling of components / speakers will make far far more difference. I see a lot of systems where you could sell the expensive power leads & get something like a much better DAC, better speakers, better amps etc. Cables aren't going to 'improve' a system.
If you feel that a power cord can transform a system, then there should be no problem in doing a blind test.
Stryder5
16-05-2018, 09:38
On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress. If you don't know how it works then you can't improve on it, except by chance.
There's plenty of times that a difference is pretty obvious and there's no question that the sound has changed. Then there's those occasions where we think we hear a subtle change. It's only in those latter situations that we have to question what we think we hear. Especially if there is no credible reason for there being any change.
We have to acknowledge that we can be fooled by our senses because it is a fact that we can be.
To me that is the practical and realistic approach. Imagination Land is not a good place to be putting a hi-fi system together or doing anything else, for that matter.
The knowledge that confuses conclusions reminds me of a story:
There was an Austrian entomologist that was studying grasshoppers and their ability to communicate.
He found a particular individual that appeared quite forward in this, he named him Johann.
After extended sessions he taught Johann to jump on command.
On an experimental whim, the entomologist removed the grasshoppers legs, he gave the command to jump. Nothing happened!
Pondering on the results, he concluded that removing Johann's legs made him deaf.
:comatose:
If you feel that a power cord can transform a system, then there should be no problem in doing a blind test.
But only if you feel the exercise is likely to have some potential benefit.
I'm more than happy to conduct blind tests, and indeed have done so many times in the past, but the results are far from conclusive. And by the way, I'm in the subtle, but worthwhile improvement, not "transform" camp. If any mains lead 'transforms' a hi-fi system, then something is badly wrong!
For me, it's about the balance of probabilities; based on MY judgement of such, no-one else's, so if (by and large) 20 years of experimenting with mains cables, and how the mains in general influences the behaviour of audio equipment, tells me that my conclusions, in that respect, are right, am I going to dismiss all of that simply because of one time I might get the 'wrong answer' in a blind test?
I think not;)
In the final analysis, once you've satisfied your judgement criteria, you need to have CONFIDENCE in your convictions - and STICK WITH THEM, if you're convinced that you're right!
Marco.
So if I plug a "computer lead" into a kettle, what may happen?
I doubt if you could do that - "kettle" leads use a high current capacity IEC connector (16A), which have a keyway. This there to to prevent the possible insertion of a lower rated lead with a lower rated IEC connector (6A) into the kettle.
Without taking sides in this debate, I ought to pass on my concern with the construction of 'freebie' leads using moulded connectors: you can't check the integrity of the connections. Maybe this is why I prefer to make my own leads.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 10:58
Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.
For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought.
Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?
For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.
There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system is no way to learn.
Marco.
I think you been a bit too gracious towards accepted 'wisdoms' as to be honest they have only paid lip service to the subject, relying only on resistance, inductance and capacitance as the beginning, middle and end of the knowledge base which has remained virtually static since the 1940's. No, I am mistaken there, they actually realised that current flow direction was actually opposite to what the wisdoms said it was.
Those measurements being used to evaluate cable performance are flawed because they are primitive in the extreme. For a start, they are purely static measurements and bear no relation whatsoever in the measurement of complex frequencies, interactions and dynamics found in real music reproduction, because they are unable to do so and won't admit that. It is the very reason objectivists throw a smoke screen of pointless accusations like placebo and expectation bias to divert attention away from those shortcomings. No wonder I bristle plenty when they are aimed at me in these debates, because I may be placebo'ed a couple times at most, have some sort of expectation bias a few times perhaps, but after hundreds of times over several decades certainly not and I always challenge these people to show me evidence of prolonged, sustained and repeatable facts that these conditions can be maintained for hundreds of times and spanning decades. They can't, because that evidence does not exist.
I jokingly said earlier in this thread that a mains cable is not there just to convey electricity from the wall socket to the system without spilling any on the carpet and after deep cogitation for more time than I would admit to, I realised that a mains cable has more demands on it than just that simple job. If you think that it is no more than a narrow bore pipe for a steady trickle of leccy to keep your system well fed with the stuff, then you couldn't be more wrong. The current flow demand can change instantaneously from a mere trickle to a full blown call of 20 amps plus in a millisecond, but, "Aha" you might say, the power supply should provide that, but it doesn't and cannot because where exactly does all this power come from? I was taught many moons ago that a capacitor cannot discharge and charge at the same time and logic says that is true, so while the capacitor is trying to supply peak current for a transient or bass, what happens to the charge cycle for the next transient peak come from? There is always a delay and a poorly built mains cable just adds even more delay, longer in fact than the charge rate of the capacitor. It is the only sensible(ish) answer I could find that addressed the issue of bass boom and overhang from a loudspeaker which miraculously vanished when an upgrade mains cable was installed. This bass overhang is the signature for me that the mains cable is not up to scratch.
Metallurgy I say also plays a major part with mains cables, not just curing bass overhang but also hiss. I was at a dealers and we were trying out mains cables on a Consonance valve system with corner horns. I noticed that the noise floor and particularly hiss was considerably reduced almost to zero with the pure silver power cord, which shocked me as I thought that hiss was "one of those things" we all had to live with as it was inherent with amplifiers. It is known fact that silver is more conductive than copper but it must also have a different grain structure in the metal but this wasn't confirmed in my own mind until some nice chap in Japan was also similarly inclined to the grain boundary theory and took steps to manufacture copper wire without them. When OHNO cast cables came onto the scene a similar thing happened compared to a normal copper cable, the hiss was substantially reduced. The continuous casting process virtually eliminates the grain boundaries of the metal, so it is not unreasonable to assume that it is those same grain boundaries that gives rise to hiss. The theory is that hiss is a series of millions of microscopic 'explosions' or arcs as the electrical current jumps across these boundaries. Electricity isn't like water flowing through a pipe but an electromotive magnetic force which has no physical contact with the metal itself so I am told, although the evidence seems to contradict this. Here we go again.
It may be this trait often gets referred to as the music emanating from the proverbial "inky blackness" that many listeners enthuse over.
May I also add that Mains cables will almost certainly interact differently depending on the equipment they are used with so where as one person hears no change in their system, someone else may perceive a significant change.
There are some interesting facts here concerning mains cables which may make sceptical folk think differently about them - or may not?:)
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/
May I also add that Mains cables will almost certainly interact differently depending on the equipment they are used with so where as one person hears no change in their system, someone else may perceive a significant change.
There are some interesting facts here concerning mains cables which may make sceptical folk think differently about them - or may not?:)
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/
from that link
Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but it’s hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact. The following article is intended to answer those questions
Note the bits in bold.
Now here is an ABX test where they had to try to distinguish between Nordost power cables and some standard leads supplied with some Parasound amps.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
No-one scored better than random chance.
It is clear from the above analysis that no matter what background or experience a participant brought to the test, it did not help him or her score better than anyone else. 49% accuracy is 49% accuracy.
But the amount of improvement can be astounding!
Unless you don't know if the fancy power cord is in use or not. Then it doesn't sound any different.
Now it is an ABX test so it is not a 'normal' listening environment. But even so you'd expect an 'astonishing improvement' to be fairly easy to spot in pretty much any circumstances.
But no-one seems to be capable of doing it.
There was also a home test done on Hi-fi Wigwam back in about 2004 where the cables were sent to peoples' homes so they could swap about at their leisure. The cables were disguised so that it was not possible to tell the fancy leads from the standard ones.
Unsurprisingly people claimed to hear clear differences even between identical power leads. Sadly the pages documenting this have been deleted from the site. I don't know why this would be, except perhaps because the site hosts many adverts for fancy power cables.
if the people making the fancy power cables really have made amazing new discoveries in electrical theory how come they are not stepping forward for their Nobel prizes?
There is an enormous credibility gap here people, and I for one am not going to attempt to jump it.
I'm afraid his first sentence spoils it for me:
Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer.
It is just another manufacturer's attempt to convince you to buy their wares with some 'techno-babble' explanations. Some of what he writes is correct, some of it is vague, some contradictory and some of it is incorrect.
Macca, when you get a chance, could you please have a go at posts #116 and #117? Ta :)
Dominic, I'll get to your (quite excellent), rather lengthy post, after lunch. There is so much there you and I agree on!
Marco.
if the people making the fancy power cables really have made amazing new discoveries in electrical theory how come they are not stepping forward for their Nobel prizes?
Maybe because the genuine improvements often experienced cannot be explained by basic electrical theory, and occur in other areas of audio not so far properly tested?
Or perhaps sufficiently rigorous testing for the phenomenon [and the enormous amount of money required for that to happen] has not so far been carried out by the relevant authorities, in order for those claiming such improvements to be put forward for a Nobel prize?
Marco.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 12:35
from that link
Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but it’s hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact. The following article is intended to answer those questions
Note the bits in bold.
Now here is an ABX test where they had to try to distinguish between Nordost power cables and some standard leads supplied with some Parasound amps.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
No-one scored better than random chance.
It is clear from the above analysis that no matter what background or experience a participant brought to the test, it did not help him or her score better than anyone else. 49% accuracy is 49% accuracy.
But the amount of improvement can be astounding!
Unless you don't know if the fancy power cord is in use or not. Then it doesn't sound any different.
Now it is an ABX test so it is not a 'normal' listening environment. But even so you'd expect an 'astonishing improvement' to be fairly easy to spot in pretty much any circumstances.
But no-one seems to be capable of doing it.
There was also a home test done on Hi-fi Wigwam back in about 2004 where the cables were sent to peoples' homes so they could swap about at their leisure. The cables were disguised so that it was not possible to tell the fancy leads from the standard ones.
Unsurprisingly people claimed to hear clear differences even between identical power leads. Sadly the pages documenting this have been deleted from the site. I don't know why this would be, except perhaps because the site hosts many adverts for fancy power cables.
if the people making the fancy power cables really have made amazing new discoveries in electrical theory how come they are not stepping forward for their Nobel prizes?
There is an enormous credibility gap here people, and I for one am not going to attempt to jump it.
You should expect no lesser grade of bullshit from someone who manufactures cables, so by rights you shouldn't blend that person's quotes with the rest of your post lol
As for ABX tests, they are a total waste of time and only prove how ineffective they really are because they have been imported from a different set of test criteria. For a start, a true ABX test has no active involvement from human participants in a live situation, so that is one myth busted. Secondly, because there are human participants they are under stress due to "test" conditions so it stuffed from the very outset. Thirdly, because most of these audio ABX tests involve the poor sods being subjected to a selection of tracks repeated over and over again in a matrix amounting to the number of cables (a minimum of three) times the variables, that amounts to hearing them many times over during the considerable length of time it takes to carry out the test. By the time all that is completed they are ready to open a vein, not provide value judgements.
As for the Hifiwigwam home test, it was insisted upon that FOUR cables would be sent out and even the three bog standard "kettle leads" were all different, there was still the stress element present (however small) with the listeners too, so little surprise it produced inconsistent results.
Given the fact that all of these ABX tests have failed, why is it always assumed the item under test has failed and not the test regime itself that has failed?
Maybe because the genuine improvements often experienced cannot be explained by basic electrical theory, and occur in other areas of audio not so far properly tested?
Or perhaps not sufficiently rigorous testing for the phenomenon [and the enormous amount of money required for that to happen] has so far been carried out by the relevant authorities, in order for those claiming such improvements to be put forward for a Nobel prize?
Marco.
Or no-one knows how they work for the simple reason that they don't work, except in the psychological realm. And since such psychological effects are well documented and have been for over a century, there's no prize money on offer for demonstrating them again?
You should expect no lesser grade of bullshit from someone who manufactures cables, so by rights you shouldn't blend that person's quotes with the rest of your post lol
As for ABX tests, they are a total waste of time and only prove how ineffective they really are because they have been imported from a different set of test criteria. For a start, a true ABX test has no active involvement from human participants in a live situation, so that is one myth busted. Secondly, because there are human participants they are under stress due to "test" conditions so it stuffed from the very outset. Thirdly, because most of these audio ABX tests involve the poor sods being subjected to a selection of tracks repeated over and over again in a matrix amounting to the number of cables (a minimum of three) times the variables, that amounts to hearing them many times over during the considerable length of time it takes to carry out the test. By the time all that is completed they are ready to open a vein, not provide value judgements.
As for the Hifiwigwam home test, it was insisted upon that FOUR cables would be sent out and even the three bog standard "kettle leads" were all different, there was still the stress element present (however small) with the listeners too, so little surprise it produced inconsistent results.
Given the fact that all of these ABX tests have failed, why is it always assumed the item under test has failed and not the test regime itself that has failed?
So you are saying that the contribution that a fancy power cable makes is so subtle that in any situation other than relaxing at home with zero stress and no concerns with expectations from anyone else then it cannot be heard at all?
Because that sounds like it is the imagination at work to me.
And it doesn't tally with the various reports I have read where the improvement is described in 'Wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen ' terms.
So which is it?
Yes, it's quite possible that basic electrical theory doesn't explain everything. However, you have to know basic electrical theory before concluding that it is inadequate. If you have no grasp of basic electrical theory, how do you know it can't explain how a mains cable works?
You just say 'fuck it' and trust your ears!:D
More seriously, as I've already said, for me it's all about adopting the use of your OWN judgement criteria, and once they've been satisfied and you believe that what you're hearing is real, then that's an end to the matter, until such times as YOU consider the subject worthy of further investigation.
That's what I do :)
Marco.
Or no-one knows how they work for the simple reason that they don't work, except in the psychological realm. And since such psychological effects are well documented and have been for over a century, there's no prize money on offer for demonstrating them again?
Lol.... I'm not saying that's not possible (of course it is), but then neither is what I suggested either. You have to be open-minded to ALL genuine possibilities, not simply those that fit best with your belief system.
I'll wait now until you tackle the questions I asked you earlier, otherwise we'll just end up going round in circles :)
Marco.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 13:09
I think the point of placebos is that you don't know if it's a placebo or not. Same with expectation bias - you're unaware of it.
Yes, it's quite possible that basic electrical theory doesn't explain everything. However, you have to know basic electrical theory before concluding that it is inadequate. If you have no grasp of basic electrical theory, how do you know it can't explain how a mains cable works?
Well if you are a sane right minded individual you should know that you could be subject to placebo and expectation bias and change your perceptions accordingly. Placebo ONLY has an effect upon you if you are totally unaware it is occurring and so the game is over if you do know.
You can also do as I do sometimes and deliberately put your mind into a negative expectation mode instead of a positive one. You get more pleasant surprises that way :lol:
But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either.
I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.
For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...;)
Therefore, I'm asking at what point, after being confident that you know how something works (as far as possible), and having researched the 'facts', do you simply trust your ears, even if what you're hearing appears to contradict it?
Essentially it comes down to this:
At what point could "imagination land" become reality if, despite seemingly being disproved by currently accepted wisdom, what you're hearing was true?
Marco.
You don't have any guarantees. Subjective impressions are just that and imagination land indistinguishable from reality providing nothing interrupts the illusion.
You'll note that I have no issues with people selling, buying and using fancy mains cables, it is only when people claim that they have an effect other than the psychological that I become interested in the debate.
Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?
Marco.
Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'. it can be wrong but it happens so rarely that it isn't really worth worrying about. And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 13:19
So you are saying that the contribution that a fancy power cable makes is so subtle that in any situation other than relaxing at home with zero stress and no concerns with expectations from anyone else then it cannot be heard at all?
Because that sounds like it is the imagination at work to me.
And it doesn't tally with the various reports I have read where the improvement is described in 'Wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen ' terms.
So which is it?
Both and neither Martin.
There are no absolutes of generalisms that can be applied. People have different hearing acuity and have widely differering musical tastes, some people can hear a fly fart at 100 paces, some people can't. I have 2 friends that we have listening sessions with, one can probably hear the fly fart, the other just likes the "tone" of what he hears - whatever that is, so what us two hear completely escapes him. That is his world and I am not in a position to berate or mock him.
I place a lot of credence in the "wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen" statement, because how unprompted and how unsolicited a statement do you need or want?
You don't have any guarantees. Subjective impressions are just that and imagination land indistinguishable from reality providing nothing interrupts the illusion.
Indeed, there are no guarantees, but that also applies to the accuracy of 'accepted wisdom'. Sometimes that needs challenging just as much as "imagination land"!;)
Lest we all become 'robots', with no thought processes of our own - and I'll fight that to the death.
Marco.
Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'...
Not at all. I'm simply putting faith in the ability of my judgment criteria (and ears), when assessing the efficacy of 'fancy mains leads', to reveal (for me) the truth, which sometimes contradicts 'accepted wisdom'. That's quite different from what you're implying.
And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.
It's not about the existence of "some amazing thing"... That's just sensationalist nonsense.
The explanation for the phenomenon in question is far likelier to be much simpler than that, and probably just a case of looking at things differently [thinking 'outside of the box'] and measuring/assessing what needs to be measured/assessed, with apparatus capable of accurately doing so, rather than applying the wrong tool, for the wrong job, or perhaps investigating the wrong area completely, which is partly what I think the problem is.
Marco.
Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'...
Plus, if we're talking about putting too much faith in something, then I'd contend that folk place WAY too much faith in the veracity of 'accepted wisdom', and what is deemed as true by basic electrical theory (when applied to matters such as we're discussing), which is one of the reasons why so little progress has been made in verifying some of audio's, shall we say, more 'contentious' subjective claims!;)
Marco.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 13:52
I think the point of placebos is that you don't know if it's a placebo or not. Same with expectation bias - you're unaware of it.
After a lovely cup of coffee and thinking about it some more, I simply cannot believe that placebo can enter into my hobby and passion while I am unaware of it.
Placebo is a purely medical term, whereby a patient is administered a treatment or medication that has no effect whatsoever, yet the patient has been told that an effective one has been administered and shows signs of recovery of their ailment.
Transferring that same scenario into my hobby and passion is complete bollocks, unless of course a dealer breaks into my home and relieves me of a lot of money for a hugely expensive mains cable he says he has just installed (even though in reality he has done no such thing) and it will sound truly awesome, the best upgrade ever. Lo, I now suffer from the placebo effect and good to his word this new cable sounds awesome, just as he said it would.
I am starting to bristle . . . . . . .
I place a lot of credence in the "wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen" statement, because how unprompted and how unsolicited a statement do you need or want?
Indeed. Whilst I don't sign up to the notion of mains cables making DRAMATIC differences to the sound of hi-fi equipment, if the difference is marked enough [better or worse] to cause one's partner, who up until then was completely unaware of what was going on, but who was otherwise familiar with the sound of the system in question, to comment accordingly, then chances are there's something in it.
Marco.
narabdela
16-05-2018, 14:26
Placebo is a purely medical term, whereby a patient is administered a treatment or medication that has no effect whatsoever, yet the patient has been told that an effective one has been administered and shows signs of recovery of their ailment.
Transferring that same scenario into my hobby and passion is complete bollocks...
'Placebo' is indeed a purely medical term, however 'The Placebo Effect' is not. I hesitate to use the word 'bollocks' to describe the above. I did consider 'nonsense', but I'll settle for 'ill-informed'.
walpurgis
16-05-2018, 14:29
Surely expectation bias can compensate for placebo effect? A 'win-win' situation all round. :)
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 14:32
Complete bollocks? Consider this scenario:
Someone pays £120 for a mains cable to replace a freebie. The sales literature tells him he's going to hear a wider soundstage, more dynamics etc. In reality it's just an ordinary mains cable with some braided sleaving over the cable and a name printed on it. How is that different from being given a chalk/sugar pill and being told it's a revolutionary new antibiotic?
If I paid £120 for a mains cable to replace a 'freebie' and I heard no difference at all it would be going back - pronto. The average person would do the same hopefully.
There are 2 clear distinctions in the two scenarios. In the medical scenario the person telling the patient he/she has been administered a certain treatment must be someone who the patient trusts or has the appropriate authority. The janitor will not do.
No sales literature yet devised will convince me there is a wider soundstage and more dynamics when there isn't and god bless the trades description act lol. I don't trust doctors, let alone anyone involved in selling within the hi-fi industry.
I learned my painful lesson with QED silver anniversary speaker cable which was complete SHITE, yet the reviews were glowing five stars and dealers were pushing it at every opportunity.
walpurgis
16-05-2018, 14:35
I learned my painful lesson with QED silver anniversary speaker cable which was complete SHITE, yet the reviews were glowing five stars and dealers were pushing it at every opportunity.
Some people like it................god knows why.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 14:39
'Placebo' is indeed a purely medical term, however 'The Placebo Effect' is not. I hesitate to use the word 'bollocks' to describe the above. I did consider 'nonsense', but I'll settle for 'ill-informed'.
Apologies for that word - the thesaurus didn't recognise an alternative.
I see even the placebo effect only being active with another person involved. I cannot placebo myself in the true sense of the word.
Just to comment quickly on this:
As for the Hifiwigwam home test, it was insisted upon that FOUR cables would be sent out and even the three bog standard "kettle leads" were all different...
Indeed. "Identical" *must* mean IDENTICAL, even to the point of the solder used to make the necessary connections, and how well that was done, otherwise the test is null and void, and thus could potentially have explained why people heard differences between supposedly "identical power leads".
Given the fact that all of these ABX tests have failed, why is it always assumed the item under test has failed and not the test regime itself that has failed?
Because it doesn't suit the objectivist agenda! :lol:
Plus, people will always believe what they want to believe [usually in whatever is least likely to cause them the distress of questioning what they've always considered as true], and that fact applies to 'non-believers' in 'fancy mains leads', just as much as it does the opposite.
Marco.
walpurgis
16-05-2018, 14:46
Because it doesn't suit the objectivist agenda! :lol:
Marco.
HoHo. So true! :D
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 14:50
Now I'm confused. Are you saying the placebo effect cannot exist in the world of hi-fi sales, or that you personally are immune to it?
I think that hi-fi magazine reviewers, sales people etc. constitute people with authority in many consumers' eyes.
I can only speak for myself of course. My take on placebo (or placebo effect) is that it needs another party to impose/inflict/whatever the condition upon me - I cannot generate or have the placebo effect on my own.
If people place their trust in magazine reviews and dealers then that is their individual choice. Both of these parties stand to gain from their recommendations to you the reader and you must use some wisdom in your dealings.
Paying £120 for a fancy upgrade mains cable that is a freebie dressed up to look the part is duping people, not triggering a placebo event.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 15:07
Just to comment quickly on this:
Indeed. "Identical" *must* mean IDENTICAL, even to the point of the solder used to make the necessary connections, and how well that was done, otherwise the test is null and void, and thus could have explained why people heard differences between supposedly "identical power leads".
Because it doesn't suit the objectivist agenda! :lol:
Plus, people always believe what they want to believe [in whatever is least likely to cause them the distress of questioning what they've always thought to be true], and that fact applies to 'non-believers' in fancy mains leads, just as much as it does to the opposite.
Marco.
After the wigwam test the objectivists were once again jumping for joy at the inconclusive result. It never crossed their minds that the test itself was flawed and not one jot of true objectivism was present. Still, it massaged their smugness for a week or two, bless them :lol:
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 15:10
Yes, indeed an ordinary cable dressed-up as something fancy would be duping people. I'd say that hearing a difference could well be due to a placebo effect or expectation bias.
I am going to agree with you on that point. I sometimes forget that there are folks who have no experience in these matters and can be fooled quite easily. I still cling to the hope that one day they start asking questions and pay close attention to what they are hearing in the cold light of day.
After the wigwam test the objectivists were once again jumping for joy at the inconclusive result. It never crossed their minds that the test itself was flawed and not one jot of true objectivism was present. Still, it massaged their smugness for a week or two, bless them :lol:
:lolsign:
Serge must've been sat there, sporting the biggest stiffy of his life [of course at his age with the aid of Viagra]!
Marco.
I am going to agree with you on that point. I sometimes forget that there are folks who have no experience in these matters and can be fooled quite easily. I still cling to the hope that one day they start asking questions and pay close attention to what they are hearing in the cold light of day.
...or have the gumption to trust their OWN ears, and make their hi-fi decisions on that basis, rather than blindly obeying the 'rules of electrical theory'/physics, accepted wisdom, text books written by 'respected scientists' (or academics), or being told what to do by a supposed 'expert' in a white lab coat;)
Marco.
Ok, let's cut to the chase...
Please may I/we have list of mains cables that people think make a 'sound' improvement over the so-called 'kettle' leads?
(All less than , say, £80 per metre, terminated at both ends.)
I hasten to add that I have made up 3 of the cheaper end of MCRU's offerings. Any improvement has been 'subtle', but I like the idea of the extra screening.
Thanks.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 15:43
Ok, let's cut to the chase...
Please may I/we have list of mains cables that people think make a 'sound' improvement over the so-called 'kettle' leads?
(All less than , say, £80 per metre, terminated at both ends.)
I hasten to add that I have made up 3 of the cheaper end of MCRU's offerings. Any improvement has been 'subtle', but I like the idea of the extra screening.
Thanks.
Ask Mr MCRU to have a trial of the No 75 cable. It is a bit above your budget sadly. I have one and will say no more.
The Supra LoRad cables are pretty good, especially with wattgate plugs on.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 15:50
I have found that anything with a switch mode power supply seems to have much less improvement from an upgrade cable. I would say pretty much immune.
It would be a big leap from that to claiming the same mains cable would have the same benefits on all and any equipment it was used with.
Good stuff, but that leap wasn't necessary (and also unlikely to have been the case, as such cables are known to be both equipment and mains dependent); the important thing was, you heard a difference.
It's just a pity you didn't have more time to test (via whatever means YOU believed was sufficient) whether you considered the difference as being real or imagined.
Marco.
I have found that anything with a switch mode power supply seems to have much less improvement from an upgrade cable. I would say pretty much immune.
Yup, but also rather crucially, that anything with SMPS [routers, Sky boxes, phone chargers, computers, smart meters, etc], sharing the same mains supply with other equipment, not fitted with with such, necessitates the use of something, filter or otherwise, to combat the amount of crap that they inject into said supply!:rolleyes:
That's why I have a dedicated radial circuit installed for my hi-fi system, isolating it as far as possible from all that shit, and use screened mains cables, properly designed for hi-fi purposes, not glorified 'licorice sticks' posing as such;)
Marco.
Beobloke
16-05-2018, 16:28
Ok, let's cut to the chase...
Please may I/we have list of mains cables that people think make a 'sound' improvement over the so-called 'kettle' leads?
Yes, I'd be happy to give you a list, based on the mains cables I've tried. Here it is:
;)
Bigman80
16-05-2018, 16:34
Yes, I'd be happy to give you a list, based on the mains cables I've tried. Here it is:
;)
:lol:
Re 'placebo' - it is the case in medicine that people who know they are taking a placebo still get better. I'm not saying that necessarily translates over into hi-fi but to say that placebos only work if the subject does not know that it is a placebo is incorrect.
I'm still having trouble with the idea that even though the difference these cables make to the sound is so obvious that wifey can hear it from the other room, no-one is able to tell them apart when they don't know which is which. I've done a fair bit of searching and I can't find a single mains cable blind test where anyone scores better than chance.
If someone can square that circle for me then I'll pay attention. Otherwise my advice to anyone reading this who is new to the hobby is to spend all your money on loudspeakers, amps and sources first and any sort of 'mains treatment' absolutely dead last if at all.
In other words spend it on the components where absolutely everyone can tell the difference even under all the stress of a blind test and with their dodgy hearing and everything else; because logically and demonstrably that's how you will get the best sound for your money
I'm still having trouble with the idea that even though the difference these cables make to the sound is so obvious that wifey can hear it from the other room, no-one is able to tell them apart when they don't know which is which.
Who says so? Who is this "no-one" you're referring to? Certainly not me, nor I don't think, Dominic, who can clearly hear a difference and has passed a blind test before.
I've also never made the "wifey" remark, so you're simply cherry-picking bits of 'gossip' that apparently supports your argument, rather than giving proper consideration to the views of those here, which contradict your argument and expose its flaws.
I've done a fair bit of searching and I can't find a single mains cable blind test where anyone scores better than chance.
Why are you all of a sudden so obsessed with blind tests? Are you Serge in disguise?:D
Surely, the only thing that matters is what's dictated by your OWN experience in this area, not how others 'score' in such tests (complete strangers, whom you don't know are deaf or not, or just stupid)?
The fact is, if you had true faith in your own judgement, you wouldn't give a monkeys about that.
If someone can square that circle for me then I'll pay attention.
Firstly, you can "square that circle" yourself, simply by applying the results of your own experience to date, with 'fancy mains leads', to the forming of your opinion on such. You shouldn't need anyone else to do it for you.
Secondly, you're clearly paying attention already, otherwise you wouldn't be posting on this thread;)
Otherwise my advice to anyone reading this who is new to the hobby is to spend all your money on loudspeakers, amps and sources first and any sort of 'mains treatment' absolutely dead last if at all.
Well, I'd advise almost the exact opposite, and tell anyone who is new to this hobby, not to obsess over 'mains treatment', but pay sensible attention to it, by using relatively inexpensive mains leads, properly designed for hi-fi purposes [such as Ollie has just built], and if possible installing a dedicated radial circuit for their system, as well as other things I believe are crucial to maximising the performance of one's chosen equipment.
It might help stop them from later becoming a perennial box-swapper [chasing their tail getting next to nowhere], and 'hi-fi victim', suffering from near-permanent system dissatisfaction, simply because all they misguidedly believe in are boxes and speakers.
Marco.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 19:35
Who says so? Who is this "no-one" you're referring to? Certainly not me, nor I don't think, Dominic, who can clearly hear a difference and has passed a blind test before.
Spot on Marco and I will give an instance of that. I participated in a blind ABX session and after 2 full hours of struggle, myself and the rest of the panel were on the verge of slitting our wrists, as it was very stressful, tedious, monotonous and seemed aimless very quickly. We all breathed a huge sigh of relief when it ended and were just about to do a runner for the kitchen for some refreshments when we were told to do just one more final test just between cable A and cable B using one 2 minute music excerpt, which we did, then rushed out for the welcome cup of coffee.
Narurally, we were very keen to see the results and we managed 52% in the ABX, but wait for this . . . . . we knocked out a full 100% with all 9 participants in identifying that cable B was the pure silver cable and cable A was the generic power cord, which is amazing considering how tired and thoroughly jaded we all were by then.
It was that first hand experience of actually being there that formed my conclusion that ABX tests were in no way a suitable methodology to evaluate mains cable claims.
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 19:51
Re 'placebo' - it is the case in medicine that people who know they are taking a placebo still get better. I'm not saying that necessarily translates over into hi-fi but to say that placebos only work if the subject does not know that it is a placebo is incorrect.
If they have got better by knowing and taking the placebo then it isn't a placebo. They surely would have got better anyway without any kind of intervention?
I'm still having trouble with the idea that even though the difference these cables make to the sound is so obvious that wifey can hear it from the other room, no-one is able to tell them apart when they don't know which is which. I've done a fair bit of searching and I can't find a single mains cable blind test where anyone scores better than chance.
There are very god reasons why ABX tests do no better than chance and if you have ever been involved with a real ABX test you would know why that is. I made an earlier post which set out clearly why these tests are flawed.
Wifey doesn't know either which cable is which yet she can pick out that change with no prior knowledge (usually) of any change, completely unsighted from the kitchen and most often from memory too. comparing the old sound with what she currently is hearing. These people that have a wife like that should rent them out to audiophools who have an insane urge to test components before purchase :lol:
nonuffin
16-05-2018, 20:17
Well then good AOS members it has been pleasurable chewing the fat with all you guys about such a knotty topic and delighted that no blood has been spilled or toys being thrown any distances :)
Don't think I can add any more to the discussion without repetition so will leave you to it :)
Not before, Dominic, I compliment you on your earlier (rather enlightened) post. Let's tackle the juiciest bits....
I think you been a bit too gracious towards accepted 'wisdoms' as to be honest they have only paid lip service to the subject, relying only on resistance, inductance and capacitance as the beginning, middle and end of the knowledge base which has remained virtually static since the 1940's.
...which is why, in isolation, it's simply too 'blunt' a tool to use for conclusively disproving the existence of effects people hear with 'fancy mains leads'. Yet the naysayers stubbornly cling onto it, as the basis for defending their position, in order to protect themselves from a fatal attack of cognitive dissonance;)
Those measurements being used to evaluate cable performance are flawed because they are primitive in the extreme. For a start, they are purely static measurements and bear no relation whatsoever in the measurement of complex frequencies, interactions and dynamics found in real music reproduction, because they are unable to do so and won't admit that. It is the very reason objectivists throw a smoke screen of pointless accusations like placebo and expectation bias to divert attention away from those shortcomings.
Yup, and I've witnessed that blinkered behaviour from them time and time again, over the years, whenever these types of subjects come up. Why can't they be more open-minded to new possibilities and admit that their argument is flawed? Real scientists would never be so arrogant as to assume they know it all, so these wannabe ones/self-appointed 'experts' you see on forums, lecturing to all and sundry about how right they are on subjects such as this, should learn to take a few humility pills...!
No wonder I bristle plenty when they are aimed at me in these debates, because I may be placebo'ed a couple times at most, have some sort of expectation bias a few times perhaps, but after hundreds of times over several decades certainly not and I always challenge these people to show me evidence of prolonged, sustained and repeatable facts that these conditions can be maintained for hundreds of times and spanning decades. They can't, because that evidence does not exist.
Indeed, and that is exactly my stance on the matter. Of course I've been fooled a few times over the years, when assessing things like cables, and been a victim of expectation bias, but not EVERY time I hear something that doesn't fit with accepted wisdom, or the contents of 'Johnny's Bible of Scientific Facts, from 1940'. Like you say, objectivists use it as a convenient smokescreen to deflect attention away from the vulnerability of their (often flawed) arguments.
I jokingly said earlier in this thread that a mains cable is not there just to convey electricity from the wall socket to the system without spilling any on the carpet and after deep cogitation for more time than I would admit to, I realised that a mains cable has more demands on it than just that simple job. If you think that it is no more than a narrow bore pipe for a steady trickle of leccy to keep your system well fed with the stuff, then you couldn't be more wrong. The current flow demand can change instantaneously from a mere trickle to a full blown call of 20 amps plus in a millisecond, but, "Aha" you might say, the power supply should provide that, but it doesn't and cannot because where exactly does all this power come from? I was taught many moons ago that a capacitor cannot discharge and charge at the same time and logic says that is true, so while the capacitor is trying to supply peak current for a transient or bass, what happens to the charge cycle for the next transient peak come from? There is always a delay and a poorly built mains cable just adds even more delay, longer in fact than the charge rate of the capacitor. It is the only sensible(ish) answer I could find that addressed the issue of bass boom and overhang from a loudspeaker which miraculously vanished when an upgrade mains cable was installed. This bass overhang is the signature for me that the mains cable is not up to scratch.
That's most interesting, and for me a credible explanation of what's happening. It certainly reflects my experience of the matter, particularly the bass overhang thing, which for me is almost always symptomatic of what you describe. Experience tells me that one of the first improvements heard when substituting a 'cheapo kettle lead' [let's just call it that for now, Andrew] with something better suited for use in hi-fi applications, is a tightening of the bass, which previously (in comparison) was a little bloated. There are other effects too, but that's almost always the main one.
Metallurgy I say also plays a major part with mains cables, not just curing bass overhang but also hiss. I was at a dealers and we were trying out mains cables on a Consonance valve system with corner horns. I noticed that the noise floor and particularly hiss was considerably reduced almost to zero with the pure silver power cord, which shocked me as I thought that hiss was "one of those things" we all had to live with as it was inherent with amplifiers. It is known fact that silver is more conductive than copper but it must also have a different grain structure in the metal but this wasn't confirmed in my own mind until some nice chap in Japan was also similarly inclined to the grain boundary theory and took steps to manufacture copper wire without them. When OHNO cast cables came onto the scene a similar thing happened compared to a normal copper cable, the hiss was substantially reduced. The continuous casting process virtually eliminates the grain boundaries of the metal, so it is not unreasonable to assume that it is those same grain boundaries that gives rise to hiss. The theory is that hiss is a series of millions of microscopic 'explosions' or arcs as the electrical current jumps across these boundaries. Electricity isn't like water flowing through a pipe but an electromotive magnetic force which has no physical contact with the metal itself so I am told, although the evidence seems to contradict this. Here we go again.
Again, all very interesting stuff, and the kind of input I enjoy seeing in these discussions: people relating their genuine experiences and 'throwing out' some ideas for consideration, which possibly helps explain what they've heard, thus stimulating discussion of the subject, rather than it being shot down by arrogant, blinkered objectivists who are more keen on massaging their egos and protecting their belief systems from scrutiny, than on entertaining the possibility of learning something new!
It may be this trait often gets referred to as the music emanating from the proverbial "inky blackness" that many listeners enthuse over.
It's definitely a possibility, and not something I've noticed being suggested before. Moreover, it's certainly the type of helpful lateral thinking we like to encourage on AoS, as opposed to the unhelpful closed-mindedness and relentless rubbishing of ideas, put forward by people for consideration, which we so often see instead elsewhere, when they don't fit with the established objectivist dogma.
Anyway, do hang around and keep up the good work. You're one of the most interesting new members we've had join us in ages! :cool:
Marco.
Sure, calling such a 'kettle lead' is simply a figure of speech, solely in reference to its appearance and the fact that it uses (as old kettles did) an IEC plug.
What I'm referring to is the cheap crap Dominic has mentioned, versus anything that's been designed better (for hi-fi purposes), in the areas he refers to, and specifically which tackles the issue of noise interference, such as RFI, through the introduction of effective shielding.
That is, by definition, a 'mains cable designed for hi-fi purposes'.
Marco.
I'm still skeptical about mains leads Marco, beyond any improvements made by just using thicker copper than the poor (thin) leads that are usually supplied.
I've seen some fairly outrageous leads (came in their own flight case and at a special show price of £1,700 off the asking price) plugged into kit and heard no difference at all, over a basic 25amp mains lead it replaced. So your not alone Macca, I wanted to hear a difference, but couldn't, if there was one, it was so small I didn't pick up on it and I'm sure that amount of money spent elsewhere in the system, would have a more noticeable effect on sound quality.
The automatic "Shielding must be good", just doesn't float for me. Unless you are using a separate grounding system for the shield and not your safety earth. All you are doing is collecting any interference using the very effective aerial the shield is and putting that interference into the safety earth circuit, which is connected to your case and probably used as the ground plane of your electronics. This might actually be worse than no shield at all, so I struggle with that one. Using a separate shield ground like a copper rod stuck in the ground etc, I can see how that might in principle, help prevent noise getting in.
Too many people have said they heard improvements for me to ignore the notion, I just haven't experienced it yet myself. :)
Hi Ken,
I don't have a problem with any of that, as you're simply relating the results of your experience to date. At least you're not rubbishing the contrary experiences of others or attempting to lecture them on how 'ridiculous' their claims are!
I've also heard very expensive 'fancy mains leads' make no difference, or often making things worse(!) than something rather more basic, but still well-designed for the job, so I in that respect I can relate to what you're saying.
An example was some Transparent mains leads and interconnects, at £650 a pop, which I'd fooled myself into believing were better than the previous (much cheaper) ones I'd been using before. Unfortunately, it took me about 4 months to find that out, when a friend brought round his DIY designs, which simply showed up what was wrong with the 'foo' ones that, unknown to me at the time, had been strangling the sound of my system!:doh:
Ever since then I've largely ditched using stupidly expensive cables, both of the mains and signal variety, and stuck with the type of stuff used in professional applications and broadcast studios [Belden, Sommer, Van Damme, etc], albeit fitted with 'fancy connectors', simply because I can hear the difference they make, and so overall they're more effective to my ears than standard varieties or 'kettle leads'. I also hard-wire, wherever possible, as undoubtedly the best connector is NO connector.
I've found in life that the truth usually always lies somewhere in the middle of two extremes, and that for me applies when assessing the respective effectiveness, in hi-fi applications, between a 'kettle lead' and some 'foo nonsense' at £3000+.
As you've pointed out however, your opinions on this matter are simply reflected by the experiences you've had to date, so it's only natural that you're sceptical, if so far 'fancy mains leads' have had nil effect, although that's no excuse for anyone being blinkered or closed-minded about it.
Maybe one day you'll find one that will improve the enjoyment of your system (and music) in a worthwhile way? :cool:
Marco.
P.S The notion expressed at the beginning of your last sentence should be forcibly inserted into the pig-headed skulls of dogmatic, closed-minded objectivists, for them to entertain! So I've now highlighted it for their benefit;) Hope you don't mind!
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 10:13
Not before, Dominic, I compliment you on your earlier (rather enlightened) post. Let's tackle the juiciest bits....
...which is why, in isolation, it's simply too 'blunt' a tool to use to conclusively disprove the existence of effects people hear with 'fancy mains leads'. Yet the naysayers stubbornly cling onto it, in order to protect themselves from a fatal attack of cognitive dissonance;)
Yup, and I've witnessed that blinkered behaviour from them time and time again, over the years, whenever these types of subjects come up. Why can't they be more open-minded to new possibilities and admit that their argument is flawed? Real scientists would never be so arrogant as to assume they know it all, so these wannabe ones/self-appointed 'experts' you see on forums, lecturing to all and sundry about how right they are on subjects such as this, should learn to take a few humility pills...!
Indeed, and that is exactly my stance on the matter. Of course I've been fooled a few times over the years, when assessing things like cables, and been a victim of expectation bias, but not EVERY time I hear something that doesn't fit with accepted wisdom, or the contents of 'Johnny's Bible of Scientific Facts, from 1940'. Like you say, objectivists use is as a convenient smokescreen to deflect attention away from the vulnerability of their (often flawed) arguments.
That's most interesting, and for me a credible explanation of what's happening. It certainly reflects my experience of the matter, particularly the bass overhang thing, which for me is almost always symptomatic of what you describe. Experience tells me that one of the first improvements heard when substituting a 'cheapo kettle lead' [let's just call it that for now, Andrew] with something better suited for use in hi-fi applications, is a tightening of the bass, which previously (in comparison) was a little bloated. There are other effects too, but that's almost always the main one.
Again, all very interesting stuff, and the kind of input I enjoy seeing in these discussions: people relating their genuine experiences and 'throwing out' some ideas for consideration, which possibly helps explain what they've heard, thus stimulating discussion of the subject, rather than it being shot down by arrogant, blinkered objectivists who are more keen on massaging their ego and protecting their belief system from scrutiny, than on entertaining the possibility of learning something new!
It's definitely a possibility, and not something I've noticed being suggested before. Moreover, it's certainly the type of helpful lateral thinking we like to encourage on AoS, as opposed to the unhelpful closed-mindedness and relentless rubbishing of ideas, put forward by people for consideration, when they don't fit with the objectivist dogma, which we so often see instead.
Anyway, do hang around and keep up the good work. You're one of the most interesting new members we've had join us in ages! :cool:
Marco.
Thank you Marco. I am delighted the entire thread stayed so positive throughout without corns getting stepped on.
Like you probably, I am the sort of person that asks the question "Why?" and it took me ages to work out that a mains cable change wasn't really putting something 'wonderful' into the system, I was in actual fact taking OUT what was flawed, hence the resultant improvement in sound quality because the inbound cable has less flaws that the outgoing one. That penny only dropped when I replaced the mains block with an upgrade one as well as the mains cable, so it had to be correct as no other logical explanation fitted exactly. My thought processes ever since have deduced that all cables are flawed in some way or other (there is no "perfect" cable) and our job is to find the right set of flaws that suits our systems (AKA synergy) and our own individual listening preferences which are infinitely variable. Hearing acuity is widely variable too, so that also has to be taken into account.
Making all 'freebie' cables the low point as being the ones with the most flaws really has untangled the complex cables question for me personally and I wish no more than other people make this their starting point too.
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 10:35
I'm still skeptical about mains leads Marco, beyond any improvements made by just using thicker copper than the poor (thin) leads that are usually supplied.
I've seen some fairly outrageous leads (came in their own flight case and at a special show price of £1,700 off the asking price) plugged into kit and heard no difference at all, over a basic 25amp mains lead it replaced. So your not alone Macca, I wanted to hear a difference, but couldn't, if there was one, it was so small I didn't pick up on it and I'm sure that amount of money spent elsewhere in the system, would have a more noticeable effect on sound quality.
The automatic "Shielding must be good", just doesn't float for me. Unless you are using a separate grounding system for the shield and not your safety earth. All you are doing is collecting any interference using the very effective aerial the shield is and putting that interference into the safety earth circuit, which is connected to your case and probably used as the ground plane of your electronics. This might actually be worse than no shield at all, so I struggle with that one. Using a separate shield ground like a copper rod stuck in the ground etc, I can see how that might in principle, help prevent noise getting in.
Too many people have said they heard improvements for me to ignore the notion, I just haven't experienced it yet myself. :)
An excellent and level headed post Ken and I am particularly impressed with the fact that you recognised the cheap flimsy rubbish mains cables that they truly are.
I have played with some really esoteric cables in my time and have learned that the laws of diminishing returns applies to cables like no other component. The jump from the cheapo freebie up to something in the £50-£80 bracket is usually a big step, with in percentage terms around 60% of sound improvement. Going on to around the £100 mark yields around 8%-10% over and above the £50-£80 cable and I wish I could add a linear scale to the money spent relating to the improvements gained in percentage terms, but even a smarter man than me would have trouble compiling that scale.
So why then do some people spend the price of a car on one single cable KNOWING that the level of sound improvement could be infitessimally small? Some people just have to have the best because it is available to buy, some may have their ego massaged by owning said cable, but there are some people that are almost clinically addicted to upgrading higher and higher to reach a pinnacle. Who knows? I am too poor to be similarly afflicted :lol:
Thank you Marco. I am delighted the entire thread stayed so positive throughout without corns getting stepped on.
That would never be allowed to happen here, as we moderate *very strictly* to prevent that type of behaviour occurring, or anyone who thinks they're entitled to say what they like, in the most arrogant or obnoxious manner, without consequences.
Banishing that crap to oblivion (and those responsible for it) was one of the first goals I set out to achieve when AoS was born. And now that the forum is successful and well-established, it's a case of OUR way or the highway! ;)
Like you probably, I am the sort of person that asks the question "Why?" and it took me ages to work out that a mains cable change wasn't really putting something 'wonderful' into the system, I was in actual fact taking OUT what was flawed, hence the resultant improvement in sound quality because the inbound cable has less flaws that the outgoing one.
Yup, that for me, is *exactly* what's going on. Therefore, you should always think of any cable 'upgrade' experienced, precisely like that!
My thought processes ever since have deduced that all cables are flawed in some way or other (there is no "perfect" cable) and our job is to find the right set of flaws that suits our systems (AKA synergy) and our own individual listening preferences which are infinitely variable. Hearing acuity is widely variable too, so that also has to be taken into account.
Indeed - exactly so!:)
I also agree with your point on hearing acuity, although acuity aside, I do also believe that some people can benefit from being 'trained' on how to hear subtle changes in musical presentation when, let's call it, 'less bad', cables are introduced into a system, before they 'get' what's going on, as some are inherently more attuned to picking up on those changes than others.
Making all 'freebie' cables the low point as being the ones with the most flaws really has untangled the complex cables question for me personally and I wish no more than other people make this their starting point too.
You just have to get your head around that notion, and most importantly of all, stop using cables as glorified tone controls!:nono:
Marco.
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 11:11
I also agree with your point on hearing acuity, although acuity aside, I do also believe that some people need 'trained' on how to hear subtle changes in musical presentation when, let's call it, 'less bad', cables are introduced into a system, before they 'get' it, as some are inherently more attuned to picking up on those changes than others.
Marco.
Glad you raised that matter because I was somewhat affeared from mentioning it in case it did tread on some corns.
Go to any hi-fi show and just listen to the comments people make as they come out of a demonstration and that gives an indicator to just how variable people's hearing acuity and listening preferences vary so widely. Some say it was "too bright", some say "not enough detail", or "too much bass for me", or whatever, even though it was one fixed system playing the same music to everyone. The mind boggles sometimes :rolleyes:
I said in an earlier post I have two friends that join me for a listening sesh sometimes and one of them only notices a change in sound character when the system is off lol. While us two are talking about nuances and inflections, soundstage and microdynamics, he quips it has a lovely tone. Love the man to bits, but he is an example of someone who listens with a broad brush rather than chewing over and dissecting the finer points.
Taught a few people now how to really "get" into the music by listening in stages. I ask them to listen to a track and focus on one instrument in complete isolation, shutting everything else out completely. I then play the same track again and attention must be paid to another instrument in isolation. I repeat that process until there is no instruments left to hear, then play the track again and make no restrictions on what they are hearing. Amazingly, they can hear every instrument clearly in parallel despite being asked beforehand to listen to one instrument alone. I suppose without even realising it I must do the same as I notice a tad more sheen from cymbals, a bit more heft in the bass or whatever this way as I use my brain almost as a reel to reel tape recorder so I memorise each and every detail.
Making all 'freebie' cables the low point as being the ones with the most flaws really has untangled the complex cables question for me personally and I wish no more than other people make this their starting point too.
Must admit I tend to stick with the 'freebie' mains cable I get with an amplifier - I figure that it was chosen to complement the 'freebie' casing, 'freebie' transformer and 'freebie' volume control they supply with it. :lol:
I must say Marco your new Avatar picture is an amazing likeness:)
:lolsign:;)
I'll get to the other new posts here later.
Marco.
narabdela
17-05-2018, 12:41
Taught a few people now how to really "get" into the music by listening in stages. I ask them to listen to a track and focus on one instrument in complete isolation, shutting everything else out completely. I then play the same track again and attention must be paid to another instrument in isolation. I repeat that process until there is no instruments left to hear, then play the track again and make no restrictions on what they are hearing. Amazingly, they can hear every instrument clearly in parallel despite being asked beforehand to listen to one instrument alone. I suppose without even realising it I must do the same as I notice a tad more sheen from cymbals, a bit more heft in the bass or whatever this way as I use my brain almost as a reel to reel tape recorder so I memorise each and every detail.
Far too analytical/(anal?) for my taste I must confess. For me the bottom line is the music. :guitar:
Far too analytical/(anal?) for my taste I must confess. For me the bottom line is the music. :guitar:
We'll have none of that sort of talk here, thank you very much.
Far too analytical/(anal?) for my taste I must confess. For me the bottom line is the music. :guitar:
I think the goal (and hopefully end result) is precisely to increase one's enjoyment of music, not detract from it. And once properly learned, should come naturally :)
Marco.
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 14:13
Far too analytical/(anal?) for my taste I must confess. For me the bottom line is the music. :guitar:
But what is the "music" to you Hugh? Is it a pure wall of sound you let wash over you, no matter how many musicians there are and the part each one plays? Are you like my friend who appreciates the "tone" - whatever that means? Do you bop around the house with whatever music is being played to make the dusting and hoovering more pleasurable? Are you one of these people that insists on having the one listening seat placed using a theodolite down the the last micron in position? Is Mrs Mills and her Piano at the top of your favourite playlist? Do you start blubbering when you hear "Puff the Magic Dragon"?
On the other hand, my enjoyment comes from listening to each musician in a band and noting the interactions and timings between them, whether they are true musicians with something unique to say and how they understand tonal colours that build up a tune or song. Three chords on a guitar and some Lalala in between soon goes in the bin as any idiot can perform that. Soundstage and imaging are way down in priority, but instruments must sound like instruments, bursting with the dynamics and harmonics they naturally possess.
I had a trawl through the 10/10 albums thread last week and called some of them up for a listen on Spotify to hear what excites AOSers and none were my cup of tea at all :doh:
.
I had a trawl through the 10/10 albums thread last week and called some of them up for a listen on Spotify to hear what excites AOSers and none were my cup of tea at all :doh:
That thread was for albums that had very good production values, not necessarily the best music.
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 14:40
That thread was for albums that had very good production values, not necessarily the best music.
Aha, that's where I went wrong Martin :lol:
If that's the case I might add one or two myself to the list. God help you :lol::lol::lol:
Aha, that's where I went wrong Martin :lol:
If that's the case I might add one or two myself to the list. God help you :lol::lol::lol:
Anyway if you think that was bad you'll have to come along to one of the bake-offs, some right shite gets played...
narabdela
17-05-2018, 15:03
I think the goal (and hopefully end result) is precisely to increase one's enjoyment of music, not detract from it. And once properly learned, should come naturally :)
Marco.
Indeed, I would only disagree(slightly) with your use of 'learned', I'd prefer 'assimilated' personally.
Either way though, this doesn't address the issues that I have with the last paragraph of post #184. We'll have to agree to differ on that one. :kiss:
Stryder5
17-05-2018, 15:03
Aha, that's where I went wrong Martin :lol:
If that's the case I might add one or two myself to the list. God help you :lol::lol::lol:
Not wanting to drift off OP but:
Group.....Tinariwen
Album.......Elwan
:eek:
Stratmangler
17-05-2018, 16:05
Not wanting to drift off OP but:
Group.....Tinariwen
Album.......Elwan
:eek:
It's funny where you pick up music steers, but this one's a gooddun :)
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 18:24
Indeed, I would only disagree(slightly) with your use of 'learned', I'd prefer 'assimilated' personally.
Either way though, this doesn't address the issues that I have with the last paragraph of post #184. We'll have to agree to differ on that one. :kiss:
I meant no offence to anyone by that statement Hugh, it was in response to Marco's observation that some people simply don't know how to analyse what they are hearing and put what they are hearing into words. It is the method I use to help lay people understand what us audiophools get all worked up into a froth about :lol:
narabdela
17-05-2018, 18:30
I meant no offence to anyone by that statement Hugh, it was in response to Marco's observation that some people simply don't know how to analyse what they are hearing and put what they are hearing into words. It is the method I use to help lay people understand what us audiophools get all worked up into a froth about :lol:
No offence taken. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion.
nonuffin
17-05-2018, 19:01
No offence taken. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion.
It would help matters along Hugh if you expressed your own opinon on the subject :)
narabdela
17-05-2018, 21:19
It would help matters along Hugh if you expressed your own opinion on the subject :)
I think that cable threads help to liven up Hi-Fi forums.*
(I actually prefer 'fora', but that's another contentious subject).
walpurgis
17-05-2018, 21:36
I think that cable threads help to liven up Hi-Fi forums.
Could be. Shall I start another? :)
narabdela
18-05-2018, 01:03
Could be. Shall I start another? :)
:no:
Stryder5
18-05-2018, 06:52
:no:
How about RCA connectors and do they make a difference :interesting:
I also agree with your point on hearing acuity, although acuity aside, I do also believe that some people can benefit from being 'trained' on how to hear subtle changes in musical presentation when, let's call it, 'less bad', cables are introduced into a system, before they 'get' what's going on, as some are inherently more attuned to picking up on those changes than others.
Marco.
Further to the trained ear comment - Ortofon use an independent "Golden Ears" panel that gives a subjective opinion on each type of cartridge produced, quite separate from the in-house evaluation. I was reading an article where Ortofon were saying they had to train each member of the panel and re-calibrate their hearing, as to what good sound was. As most had been subjected to poor sound, through effects/compression/ear buds etc for so long, they had forgotten what real music sounded like, so had false/poor references as a base line. Basically what they were getting at was, if you listen to one kind of sound, good or bad, for long enough, it becomes your reference to compare things against and anything different can be perceived as wrong or lacking.
It's been a great thread this, enjoyed it, lots of good ideas and points of view expressed.
I have been a Food Technologist working for some of the top multinationals for many years and most of them have trained food panels who work in their sensory departments.
They take food or product tasting very seriously and its not down to a decision of whether someone likes the taste of something or not. The panelists will be trained for months to assess the key attributes of flavour and develop terminology to describe them. The sensory analysis is complex and very detailed which produces results that can let food or flavour companies develop products to a precise flavour or consistency they are looking for.
I am sure if this level of analysis was applied to high fidelity equipment in both its development or assessment by the purchaser it would negate some of the purely subjective opinions and base audio listening experience as an objective discipline.
Trouble with that is, are the panellists the folk that will be eating it? Chances are. NO
walpurgis
18-05-2018, 09:40
I have been a Food Technologist working for some of the top multinationals for many years
You wouldn't be any chance have input as to what bulking agents, flavour enhancers, synthetic flavourings, binding agents, cheap fats, emulsifiers, dairy substitutes, anti-oxidants, preservatives, etc, that manufacturers can get away with using without cocking up the flavour of food too much? :)
Primalsea
18-05-2018, 10:07
You wouldn't be any chance have input as to what bulking agents, flavour enhancers, synthetic flavourings, binding agents, cheap fats, emulsifiers, dairy substitutes, anti-oxidants, preservatives, etc, that manufacturers can get away with using without cocking up the flavour of food too much? :)
Basically if it tastes great it’s not good for you...
walpurgis
18-05-2018, 10:10
:lolsign:
I bet you're picky about what food you buy. :)
Basically if it tastes great it’s not good for you...
no, its easy to make good food taste great and be good for you. it just costs more and doesnt keep so well in a packet.
Primalsea
18-05-2018, 10:18
Basically what they were getting at was, if you listen to one kind of sound, good or bad, for long enough, it becomes your reference to compare things against and anything different can be perceived as wrong or lacking.
It's been a great thread this, enjoyed it, lots of good ideas and points of view expressed.
I think that some hifi manufacturers are very well aware of this and use it to their own ends, but not in a good way. I was at a show where a design guy of a high end US speaker manufacturer was dictating to people what big band music should sound like, which just happened to be exactly what his speakers sounded like...
I thought the speakers sounded good in some ways but a little odd. They seemed to pump out too much bass into female vocals, which gave a nice breathy, full sound, but just not right to my ears.
I am uneasy with this idea that if you don’t like something it’s because you don’t understand what good sounds like. You like it or you don’t.
narabdela
18-05-2018, 10:31
I am uneasy with this idea that if you don’t like something it’s because you don’t understand what good sounds like. You like it or you don’t.
:exactly: :thumbsup:
You wouldn't be any chance have input as to what bulking agents, flavour enhancers, synthetic flavourings, binding agents, cheap fats, emulsifiers, dairy substitutes, anti-oxidants, preservatives, etc, that manufacturers can get away with using without cocking up the flavour of food too much? :)
Yep, I have been party to all that over the years Geoff. As a result I don't buy any of it myself as I tend to cook everything from scratch. :)
To be honest a lot of food products now have far fewer additives than they used to as the supermarket brand standards are now much higher.
We do habituate to a type of Hi-Fi sound, surely this is a part of extracting as much as we can from sound, which in normal life would be a survival mechanism.
Hearing the real thing probably is essential, although haven't been to a live concert since '75, Queen in Hyde Pk.
Being without Hi-Fi for six months has enabled me to re-calibrate and become aware of many natural sounds to which I had become oblivious.
I am uneasy with this idea that if you don’t like something it’s because you don’t understand what good sounds like. You like it or you don’t.
Spot on. I like it when non-enthusiasts come round and have a listen, if they say it sounds good you know you are onto something because they don't have the baggage of the audiophile who can ignore the overall hard distortion in the sound because he is concentrating on how real the trumpet sounds and whether it is playing 'in time' with the sax.
You only need a trained listener if you want to analyse the sound, to see why it sounds like it does, to pick out the problems. Not to tell you if it sounds good or not.
This is one of the (many) problems with hifi shows; not only are you listening to unknown equipment in an unfamiliar and probably unsuitable room, nine times out of ten the music being played is so dire that no rational person would choose to listen to it. Either that, or it's 'easy' music; girl/guitar or jazz trio. Which might also be dire, of course.
This is one of the (many) problems with hifi shows; not only are you listening to unknown equipment in an unfamiliar and probably unsuitable room, nine times out of ten the music being played is so dire that no rational person would choose to listen to it. Either that, or it's 'easy' music; girl/guitar or jazz trio. Which might also be dire, of course.
True - usually it is a case of a good system playing shit music or a shit system playing good music. The planets rarely align for some reason.
walpurgis
18-05-2018, 12:41
I am uneasy with this idea that if you don’t like something it’s because you don’t understand what good sounds like. You like it or you don’t.
If we were not able to discern decent sound, we would not use Hi-Fi, but just plug a multi-media system into the PC to listen to MP3 downloads and be done with it!!
Primalsea
18-05-2018, 12:45
no, its easy to make good food taste great and be good for you. it just costs more and doesnt keep so well in a packet.
Well, I will concede that I like lentil soup...as long as it’s well salted. Salads can be good too...as long as there is plenty of salt and olive oil...
walpurgis
18-05-2018, 13:01
Well, I will concede that I like lentil soup...
Blimey. Not had that since I was a kid. Used to like peas pud too.
narabdela
18-05-2018, 13:01
Mains cables to Lentil Soup!
That's high quality thread drift. :mex:
walpurgis
18-05-2018, 13:03
No harm in livening a rather worn and possibly clapped out thread with a bit of fun! :D
If we were not able to discern decent sound, we would not use Hi-Fi, but just plug a multi-media system into the PC to listen to MP3 downloads and be done with it!!
like listening to Spotify on a Devaliet, you mean?
walpurgis
18-05-2018, 13:07
like listening to Spotify on a Devaliet, you mean?
Bit of a slur on Snotify that. :)
Spotify can sound very good. Not s good as deezer tho
nonuffin
18-05-2018, 14:42
Salads can be good too..
I avoid salad like the plague. Have seen what that stuff does to rabbits :whistle:
I avoid salad like the plague. Have seen what that stuff does to rabbits :whistle:
When was the last time you saw a rabbit eating a Waldorf salad or a salad Nicoise? Perhaps rabbits need to be taught what a good salad is.
Pieoftheday
18-05-2018, 16:56
So it seems mains cable really do make a difference. But only if you hear it:)
chris@panteg
02-06-2018, 15:22
I have heard a big difference in a mains lead, just the one time, it was a home made lead I bought on here, not expensive at £20.
It's made from tightly twisted solid core to an MK plug and standard iec.
How did it sound compared to the bog standard provided with my Pearl lite?
As Doug Dunlop, bless him would say, like a bag of nails!!
It sounded bloody awful and had to be removed immediately, the bog standard or the Mark Grant I have was much better.
I use the Mark Grant because at least it doesn't sound any worse than the standard lead.
I have had this discussion with a friend in Italy, who claimed that as alternating current was moving back and forth at 50Hz, (60 here in the States), the electrons were only moving back and forth in the “good”, copper.
So I did some math, it’s in a notebook around here someplace, if I ever find it I may share it. But basically I found out his theory was rubbish. The electrons were moving far further than two meters or less. Like some portion of a kilometer. So, yea, so much for promising theories.
Personally I too believe it has more to do with good grounding and shielding than any pseudo-science. And I have seen no evidence that throwing money at it will produce a better cable. I spent good money, about $55, for parts to make a good cable for my preamp. Does it sound good? Yes! Can I tell the difference? Not really. But it’s big and fat with braided sleeve and looks quite fetching! I also spent good money on a cryogenically frozen 20A cable for my amp! It’s wound up in the closet, I haven’t put it in yet. I’ll let everyone know if it bowls me over.
Right now I’m using the one Krell gave with the amp. I’ve always thought if there was anything to this stuff then manufacturers would supply them? If all it took was a good cable to make their kit sound better, then why wouldn’t they? They go to extreme lengths elsewhere for sound quality, why overlook that if it really made a difference?
But, in our quest for better sound, there is certainly no harm in assuring that the cables we use are not impeding our enjoyment of our hard earned systems.
Russell
You have a different Krell to me but the manual for mine is pretty explicit in warning not to use any mains cable except the one supplied.
It doesn't say what will happen if you do, but I imagine it is similar to what happens when you cross the streams in 'Ghostbusters'.
walpurgis
03-06-2018, 08:18
If you use the wrong lead, you'll probably get an effect like the one at the cold fusion lab in the movie 'Chain Reaction'.
The Krell manual is basically 3 pages of them saying 'Do not screw around with this thing!'
You have to mute your pre-amp when cuing a record as due to the current delivery the transient from the needle dropping can blow the drivers out of your speakers.
Just to set the cat amongst the pigeons a bit...
Noticed last night the mains lead from my power amp was pressed against the back wall a bit?
Moved the amp forward a bit and left a bit of clearance?
https://i.imgur.com/6dI7M6V_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Better sense of space around vocals and better ‘flow’ in well recorded live music.
Go figure :eek:
Listening this morning and moving amp back to where it was can hear the difference.
Small tweak well worth doing.
(No, I on the malt last night lol)
Just to set the cat amongst the pigeons a bit...
We've already got so many cats in there on this topic that we are starting to run out of pigeons....
If you can 'hear' that cable touching the wall without knowing whether it is or isn't then I'd be impressed.
There's a stark choice here between the well-established vagaries of human psychology and basic physics having some alarming and totally inexplicable gaps that have gone completely unnoticed until audiophilia reached its current, dizzy heights. When you've eliminated the impossible explanations, whatever remains must be the explanation regardless of how improbable, or in this case, unpalatable, it may be.
It isn't comfortable to realise we cannot trust our senses or our memory in uncontrolled conditions, but it is easily demonstrable that we can't.
There's a stark choice here between the well-established vagaries of human psychology and basic physics having some alarming and totally inexplicable gaps that have gone completely unnoticed until audiophilia reached its current, dizzy heights.
It's also funny how scientists and engineers came up with the technology to reproduce recorded sounds, but now it's scientists and engineers who get stick for failing to have an 'open mind' about fancy mains cables, even when they go to great lengths to explain precisely why perceived differences between such cables are down to psychological rather than scientific factors.
its pretty fair to say what it is, if it works for you, then it works for you. as much as ive not heard differences in mains cables, im not so arrogant as to dismiss it totally. science does tend to say something and stick to it until it becomes obvious they were wrong. even then....:eyebrows:
I hear subtle changes in the sound of my system even when I haven't changed anything. Took a long time for me to realise the inconsistencies were in me, not the system. I suppose because to an extent it is counter-intuitive. We always consider ourselves to be the constant and look for explanations outside of that. In fact we are incredibly inconsistent and the behaviour of electricity going through wires is about as consistent as anything can be.
It's also funny how scientists and engineers came up with the technology to reproduce recorded sounds, but now it's scientists and engineers who get stick for failing to have an 'open mind' about fancy mains cables, even when they go to great lengths to explain precisely why perceived differences between such cables are down to psychological rather than scientific factors.
With some kit, the scientists produce it then its tweaked by ear for the best version?
Not dog in this race really, whatever the reason I'm enjoying the music better, which is the important bit for me.
All good.
Not dog in this race really.
I thought you were putting a cat up to compete?
It's true and I agree that our individual subjective reality is the only one that matters as far as appreciating music goes. This debate is for entertainment purposes only.
narabdela
03-06-2018, 11:34
I hear subtle changes in the sound of my system even when I haven't changed anything. Took a long time for me to realise the inconsistencies were in me, not the system. I suppose because to an extent it is counter-intuitive. We always consider ourselves to be the constant and look for explanations outside of that. In fact we are incredibly inconsistent and the behaviour of electricity going through wires is about as consistent as anything can be.
That's probably the most sensible post I've read on a Hi-Fi forum for many a long year. :thumbsup:
That's probably the most sensible post I've read on a Hi-Fi forum for many a long year. :thumbsup:
Even a broken clock is right twice a day ;)
walpurgis
03-06-2018, 11:43
I hear subtle changes in the sound of my system even when I haven't changed anything. Took a long time for me to realise the inconsistencies were in me, not the system.
I'm aware of that too. On occasion, the system sounds odd and I know it's just down to me.
I thought you were putting a cat up to compete?
It's true and I agree that our individual subjective reality is the only one that matters as far as appreciating music goes. This debate is for entertainment purposes only.
Naa...
just sharing a recent experience is' all. :)
Bigman80
03-06-2018, 12:00
Just to set the cat amongst the pigeons a bit...
Noticed last night the mains lead from my power amp was pressed against the back wall a bit?
Moved the amp forward a bit and left a bit of clearance?
https://i.imgur.com/6dI7M6V_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Better sense of space around vocals and better ‘flow’ in well recorded live music.
Go figure :eek:
Listening this morning and moving amp back to where it was can hear the difference.
Small tweak well worth doing.
(No, I on the malt last night lol)There is a theory that says if your cables are touching ANYTHING other than air, then they can be affected perversely. I can't remember if someone told me this or I read it but I'll see if I can find it.
I recall a wall touching a cable causing a hum. Strange but true.
I hear subtle changes in the sound of my system even when I haven't changed anything. Took a long time for me to realise the inconsistencies were in me, not the system. I suppose because to an extent it is counter-intuitive. We always consider ourselves to be the constant and look for explanations outside of that. In fact we are incredibly inconsistent and the behaviour of electricity going through wires is about as consistent as anything can be.
I always blame it on the weather! The humidity, barometer or something is different. Much easier than blaming myself! But I know what you are saying, such as, why does the system sound so much better after a pint or two? In fact, all listening tests should be performed after at least two pints!
Russell
walpurgis
03-06-2018, 12:30
I always blame it on the weather! The humidity, barometer or something is different. Much easier than blaming myself! But I know what you are saying, such as, why does the system sound so much better after a pint or two? In fact, all listening tests should be performed after at least two pints!
Russell
Some might suggest a large spliff and a tab of something interesting might enhance the experience too. :eyebrows:
Some might suggest a large spliff and a tab of something interesting might enhance the experience too. :eyebrows:
30 magic mushrooms eaten fresh and washed down with a can of strong, cheap lager. System will sound amazing; I mean musicians not only in the room but you are inside the musician's heads too. System can be as shit as you like, it still works.
Those were the days. I think I only started upgrading when I stopped doing drugs.
Just to set the cat amongst the pigeons a bit...
Noticed last night the mains lead from my power amp was pressed against the back wall a bit?
Moved the amp forward a bit and left a bit of clearance?
https://i.imgur.com/6dI7M6V_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Better sense of space around vocals and better ‘flow’ in well recorded live music.
Go figure :eek:
Listening this morning and moving amp back to where it was can hear the difference.
Small tweak well worth doing.
Not in the slightest bit surprised mate, as I discovered that one years ago! :eyebrows:
It's one of the reasons why I have my kit on multiple layers of Mana supports, because even if they weren't doing anything, in terms of their design (they do, but that's another matter), the very fact that my kit is so high up off the floor, means that I can both let all my cables (mains and signal) hang in free space, and keep them well away from walls.
The cumulative effect of that is always audible, and as you've discovered yourself, sonically beneficial. If you want to hear another similar upgrade, try and arrange your equipment on the rack so that the box carrying the most sonically influential interconnects is high up enough to allow them to hang in free space, as opposed to touching the floor or walls. And do that with as many bits of kit as you can.
*And*, if you fancy another tweak, and you use a mains block of some description, place some isolation cones/Sorbothane feet, or something of that ilk under it, in order to raise it up off of the floor (including the power cable attached) - or even better still, if you have a spare shelf on your rack, place your mains block on it, and get it up off the floor that way.
Trust me, as a result, your whole system will sound better [by de-oupling it from a source of vibration]!;)
Marco.
P.S Nice chunky mains cable and IEC. Like it. What are they, out of interest?
walpurgis
03-06-2018, 12:48
30 magic mushrooms eaten fresh and washed down with a can of strong, cheap lager. System will sound amazing; I mean musicians not only in the room but you are inside the musician's heads too. System can be as shit as you like, it still works
And don't forget to put 'Master of The Universe' on. (sounds incredible really loud through big Tannoys :D)
Talk of electrons travelling kilometres is contrary to what I was taught in 'A' level physics.
The field travels at near the speed of light, but the electrons travel only a few millimetres.
walpurgis
03-06-2018, 13:26
I thought the perception was that electrons simply oscillate back and forth, each imparting energy to the next in line.
I thought the perception was that electrons simply oscillate back and forth, each imparting energy to the next in line.
What we learnt in Physics - even had a Slinky set up to demonstrate the wave principle involved ;)
I thought the perception was that electrons simply oscillate back and forth, each imparting energy to the next in line.
Douglas Adams....your thoughts are missed.
Martin, care to fill in? :)
Not in the slightest bit surprised mate, as I discovered that one years ago! :eyebrows:
It's one of the reasons why I have my kit on multiple layers of Mana supports, because even if they weren't doing anything, in terms of their design (they do, but that's another matter), the very fact that my kit is so high up off the floor, means that I can both let all my cables (mains and signal) hang in free space, and keep them well away from walls.
The cumulative effect of that is always audible, and as you've discovered yourself, sonically beneficial. If you want to hear another similar upgrade, try and arrange your equipment on the rack so that the box carrying the most sonically influential interconnects is high up enough to allow them to hang in free space, as opposed to touching the floor or walls. And do that with as many bits of kit as you can.
*And*, if you fancy another tweak, and you use a mains block of some description, place some isolation cones/Sorbothane feet, or something of that ilk under it, in order to raise it up off of the floor (including the power cable attached) - or even better still, if you have a spare shelf on your rack, place your mains block on it, and get it up off the floor that way.
Trust me, as a result, your whole system will sound better !;)
Marco.
[B]P.S Nice chunky mains cable and IEC. Like it. What are they, out of interest?
It's a commercial cable, a PS Audio AC5.
Have an AC-3 powering my Directstream Dac, be upgrading to another AC5 when the pennies are there.
Do mains cables make a difference?
Uh...seriously?
Lol.... Coolz. It looks decent value for money, considering the quality of materials used and construction.
If you can, do try the other stuff I recommended, as I think you'll like the effect. Quite simply, it pays to get ALL your cables up off the floor and away from walls! :trust:
Marco.
It seems to me that the 'best' mains cable to use is 2.5 mm ring main cable given that it feeds the sockets anyway. A bit stiff but doable. One could always put some nice braid around it to make it look less 'industrial'.
:sofa:
It seems to me that the 'best' mains cable to use is 2.5 mm ring main cable given that it feeds the sockets anyway. A bit stiff but doable. One could always put some nice braid around it to make it look less 'industrial'.
:sofa:
Nice braid would do that, yes. :)
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