View Full Version : Do mains cables make a difference??
Yes, electrons do oscillate around in a heat dependant random manner which is Brownian motion producing thermal noise, and this manifests as the noise audio wants rid of.
I wrongly didn't state that the velocity was an average, and refers to electrons being 'driven' by an applied voltage, which results in a velocity of only a few mm/sec.
Can't remember all of the noise types but shot noise, partition noise, and flicker effect come to mind. (college 45 years ago).
V (noise) = root (4kBTR) volts, where k = Boltsmans constant, B = bandwidth, T = absolute temperature, and R = resistance.
I have had this discussion with a friend in Italy, who claimed that as alternating current was moving back and forth at 50Hz, (60 here in the States), the electrons were only moving back and forth in the “good”, copper.
So I did some math, it’s in a notebook around here someplace, if I ever find it I may share it. But basically I found out his theory was rubbish. The electrons were moving far further than two meters or less. Like some portion of a kilometer. So, yea, so much for promising theories.
The maths are quite straightforward.
Assume the conductor is copper, which has about 8.5 1028 conduction electrons per m3.
Each electron carries a charge of 1.6 10-19 Coulombs.
So in a 1 metre length of wire, 1mm in diameter, there are 6.7 1022 conduction electrons with a total charge of about 104 Coulombs.
A current of 1A corresponds to a charge flow rate of 1 Coulomb/second, so at that rate it would take 104seconds for the total conduction charge in 1 metre of conductor (with a diameter of 1mm) to flow past a given point. Thus the average drift velocity is 0.1mm/second.
So for an AC mains current alternating at 50Hz, during the first half cycle of 10ms, the electrons will drift 0.001mm, and in the second half cycle they will drift 0.001mm back again.
However despite the small drift velocity, the individual electrons are subject to thermal excitations and these give the electrons a much higher Fermi velocity of about 1.6 106m/sec, or about 1010 higher than the drift velocity. Despite the high Fermi velocity electrons do not travel at this rate because they undergo collisions and are constantly being deflected from a straight line path. Owing to thermal excitation of the copper atoms, the conduction electrons are deflected because of this interaction. It is this interaction that results in the positive thermal coeffcient of resistance of metals. As the temperature rises so does the vibration of the atoms and the probability of an electron being deflected increases. The mean free path between collisions falls, so the acceleration by the electric field has less effect before the electron is deflecte in more or less random manner. The current produced by a given field falls and this corresponds to a higher resistance.
Electron scattering will also occur due to defects such as impurities and crystal dislocations (grain boundaries). The effect of these can be estimated because they have a far lower temperature dependance than the thermal scattering effect. If the conductor is cooled towards absolute zero, the resistance doesn't fall to zero, but flattens out to a residual value determined by scattering from dislocations and impurities. For oxygen free copper, this residual resistance is about 1/70 (1.4%) of the resistivity at 20deg C; so the impurities make a contribution to the electron scattering of only 1.4%. And even the thermal scattering is low: the mean free path in copper at 20deg C is about 5 10-8m, so on average an electron passes 200 atoms without interaction before being deflected from a straight line path.
To put the impurity scattering effect into perspective, this contributes ~ 1.4% to the overall scattering. So eliminating all impurities and dislocations would only reduce the resistance by 1.4%. A temperature rise of 2 - 3deg C would add more resistance than the elimination of all impurities would remove.
Reducing crystal boundary dislocations (often called grain boundaries) and othe dislocations beyond a certain level is pointless because even if a perfect single crystal is produced, the effect of just bending the wire beyond its elestic limit (where it will spring back to its original shape) will be to create massive dislocations of the crystal structure, so such a perfect structure would be near imposible to maintain in practice.
nonuffin
04-06-2018, 08:00
It seems to me that the 'best' mains cable to use is 2.5 mm ring main cable given that it feeds the sockets anyway. A bit stiff but doable. One could always put some nice braid around it to make it look less 'industrial'.
:sofa:
My understanding is that for installations that may be subject any kind of movement, then a flex construction cable must be used and using any solid core cable is prohibited.
Barry, I think a few steps have been left out in the following, although I may be wrong, could you please fill them?
"Assume the conductor is copper, which has about 8.5 1028 conduction electrons per m3.
Each electron carries a charge of 1.6 10-19 Coulombs.
So in a 1 metre length of wire, 1mm in diameter, there are 6.7 1022 conduction electrons with a total charge of about 104 Coulombs.
A current of 1A corresponds to a charge flow rate of 1 Coulomb/second, so at that rate it would take 104seconds for the total conduction charge in 1 metre of conductor (with a diameter of 1mm) to flow past a given point. Thus the average drift velocity is 0.1mm/second."
It seems to me that the 'best' mains cable to use is 2.5 mm ring main cable given that it feeds the sockets anyway. A bit stiff but doable. One could always put some nice braid around it to make it look less 'industrial'.
:sofa:
I've seen this written in several threads around the web, some by EE's. Some say double up the copper thickness on your connecting cable, which acts as a spur, as the in wall cable is usually a ring circuit, so make the spur thicker to compensate. Strip the twin and earth conductors out of the sheath and make a twisted pair out of the L and N and run an insulated earth along side the pair. Cover in an expanded woven jacket and you have a great lead.
I wouldn't worry too much about what manufacturers say, their recommendations are more about not getting sued if things go wrong, so "change nothing" is the order of the day. Flexible leads are meant for a lot of use/abuse/coiling/uncoiling etc like hair driers/power tools etc. Your audio gear is more of a fixed installation, I only move mine a few times a year and the mains cables tend to stay put, its the gear I move, so not a lot of flexing involved. You can stick your tongue in a live socket if you want, it's not illegal, just not advised.
I will get round to making a lead like this one day, using a straight exit industrial three pin plug one end and a locking IEC kettle type connector on the other. The Hifi plugs offer nothing other than the ability to accept thicker cable jackets and are a rip off. Industrial plugs offer the same, can be found with Silver plated pins if you want to go that route, and are made from the same materials, so you are paying for the myth that the "hifi" versions are special. I personally only use a three pin British safety plug in one place in my system, and that's where the single mains lead connects between a wall socket and my mains distribution unit. this is the only fused plug in the chain and its there to protect the lead from catching fire and also the ring main, in the unlikely event any of my leads get tapped in a door etc and give a direct short. All the leads from the distribution unit to my gear have IEC kettle type connectors each end, so avoiding unnecessary multiple fuses/connections. I make the IEC leads up myself from decent thickness copper and have no issues with what I hear. The only negative thing I experienced was when I had a filter in my distribution unit, it sapped the life out of my amps, when I removed the cheap and nasty filter and made all the connections straight through, point to point, the problem went away.
It's a simple approach but works for me, that is the important thing, if you are not experiencing any mains issues, don't go chasing rainbows and stick with what you are doing. :)
I have removed all mains cables from my system. The noise floor has dropped considerably; the blackness is inkier than ever, and, if I close my eyes, the speakers disappear.
ianlenco
04-06-2018, 10:45
:lol:
My understanding is that for installations that may be subject any kind of movement, then a flex construction cable must be used and using any solid core cable is prohibited.
Ah I did not know that. Makes sense.
I've seen this written in several threads around the web, some by EE's. Some say double up the copper thickness on your connecting cable, which acts as a spur, as the in wall cable is usually a ring circuit, so make the spur thicker to compensate. Strip the twin and earth conductors out of the sheath and make a twisted pair out of the L and N and run an insulated earth along side the pair. Cover in an expanded woven jacket and you have a great lead.
I wouldn't worry too much about what manufacturers say, their recommendations are more about not getting sued if things go wrong, so "change nothing" is the order of the day. Flexible leads are meant for a lot of use/abuse/coiling/uncoiling etc like hair driers/power tools etc. Your audio gear is more of a fixed installation, I only move mine a few times a year and the mains cables tend to stay put, its the gear I move, so not a lot of flexing involved. You can stick your tongue in a live socket if you want, it's not illegal, just not advised.
I will get round to making a lead like this one day, using a straight exit industrial three pin plug one end and a locking IEC kettle type connector on the other. The Hifi plugs offer nothing other than the ability to accept thicker cable jackets and are a rip off. Industrial plugs offer the same, can be found with Silver plated pins if you want to go that route, and are made from the same materials, so you are paying for the myth that the "hifi" versions are special. I personally only use a three pin British safety plug in one place in my system, and that's where the single mains lead connects between a wall socket and my mains distribution unit. this is the only fused plug in the chain and its there to protect the lead from catching fire and also the ring main, in the unlikely event any of my leads get tapped in a door etc and give a direct short. All the leads from the distribution unit to my gear have IEC kettle type connectors each end, so avoiding unnecessary multiple fuses/connections. I make the IEC leads up myself from decent thickness copper and have no issues with what I hear. The only negative thing I experienced was when I had a filter in my distribution unit, it sapped the life out of my amps, when I removed the cheap and nasty filter and made all the connections straight through, point to point, the problem went away.
It's a simple approach but works for me, that is the important thing, if you are not experiencing any mains issues, don't go chasing rainbows and stick with what you are doing. :)
Thanks for that most informative response. I've not done this but may just as an experiment. But I tend to move things around so may not be so useful and as Dominic mentioned probably is not allowed.
I have removed all mains cables from my system. The noise floor has dropped considerably; the blackness is inkier than ever, and, if I close my eyes, the speakers disappear.
Lol
Does remind me of the 2 or 3 times when the mains distribution for the neighborhood blew how quite things were without all the electrical hum. And the real inky blackness.
Ah I did not know that. Makes sense.
Thanks for that most informative response. I've not done this but may just as an experiment. But I tend to move things around so may not be so useful and as Dominic mentioned probably is not allowed.
Not a question of being allowed, like I said, your allowed to stick your tong in a socket if your daft enough, but its not recommended. That is all the specs are, recommendations. Different countries have different ideas about what those might be. It's a different matter, if your a manufacturer and are selling to the public, you have to follow the guide lines to get certification and could be prosecuted if producing something which was inherently dangerous and caused loss or injury. I quite often run my Amp with the lid off, when I'm testing things, you would never see a new one for sale like that. Do what you are comfortable with, within the realms of your knowledge/experience, that's all I'm saying.
I have removed all mains cables from my system. The noise floor has dropped considerably; the blackness is inkier than ever, and, if I close my eyes, the speakers disappear.
Must be using super conductors. :D
30 magic mushrooms eaten fresh and washed down with a can of strong, cheap lager. System will sound amazing; I mean musicians not only in the room but you are inside the musician's heads too. System can be as shit as you like, it still works.
Those were the days. I think I only started upgrading when I stopped doing drugs.
Well you still have to be able to drop the needle on the record. Perhaps you only thought the music was playing?[emoji2] but you may be right about the upgrades after drugs, but it’s more of where you choose to put your money?
Russ
The Krell manual is basically 3 pages of them saying 'Do not screw around with this thing!'
You have to mute your pre-amp when cuing a record as due to the current delivery the transient from the needle dropping can blow the drivers out of your speakers.
Just the other day, I was listening to FM, and decided to put on a CD, and when the drums kicked in it scared the crap out of me! Just crazy loud! After I sprang across the room to turn it down, I was impressed that even though it was loud enough to kill, it was nice and clean!
Apparently the stock cable isn’t holding it back any.
Russell
The maths are quite straightforward.
Assume the conductor is copper, which has about 8.5 1028 conduction electrons per m3.
Each electron carries a charge of 1.6 10-19 Coulombs.
So in a 1 metre length of wire, 1mm in diameter, there are 6.7 1022 conduction electrons with a total charge of about 104 Coulombs.
A current of 1A corresponds to a charge flow rate of 1 Coulomb/second, so at that rate it would take 104seconds for the total conduction charge in 1 metre of conductor (with a diameter of 1mm) to flow past a given point. Thus the average drift velocity is 0.1mm/second.
So for an AC mains current alternating at 50Hz, during the first half cycle of 10ms, the electrons will drift 0.001mm, and in the second half cycle they will drift 0.001mm back again.
However despite the small drift velocity, the individual electrons are subject to thermal excitations and these give the electrons a much higher Fermi velocity of about 1.6 106m/sec, or about 1010 higher than the drift velocity. Despite the high Fermi velocity electrons do not travel at this rate because they undergo collisions and are constantly being deflected from a straight line path. Owing to thermal excitation of the copper atoms, the conduction electrons are deflected because of this interaction. It is this interaction that results in the positive thermal coeffcient of resistance of metals. As the temperature rises so does the vibration of the atoms and the probability of an electron being deflected increases. The mean free path between collisions falls, so the acceleration by the electric field has less effect before the electron is deflecte in more or less random manner. The current produced by a given field falls and this corresponds to a higher resistance.
Electron scattering will also occur due to defects such as impurities and crystal dislocations (grain boundaries). The effect of these can be estimated because they have a far lower temperature dependance than the thermal scattering effect. If the conductor is cooled towards absolute zero, the resistance doesn't fall to zero, but flattens out to a residual value determined by scattering from dislocations and impurities. For oxygen free copper, this residual resistance is about 1/70 (1.4%) of the resistivity at 20deg C; so the impurities make a contribution to the electron scattering of only 1.4%. And even the thermal scattering is low: the mean free path in copper at 20deg C is about 5 10-8m, so on average an electron passes 200 atoms without interaction before being deflected from a straight line path.
To put the impurity scattering effect into perspective, this contributes ~ 1.4% to the overall scattering. So eliminating all impurities and dislocations would only reduce the resistance by 1.4%. A temperature rise of 2 - 3deg C would add more resistance than the elimination of all impurities would remove.
Reducing crystal boundary dislocations (often called grain boundaries) and othe dislocations beyond a certain level is pointless because even if a perfect single crystal is produced, the effect of just bending the wire beyond its elestic limit (where it will spring back to its original shape) will be to create massive dislocations of the crystal structure, so such a perfect structure would be near imposible to maintain in practice.
Well it sounds as though you have a much greater understanding of the situation than I do!
But let’s say my friend’s theory is correct, electrons are moving back and forth only in the “Good Copper”, do we jump to the assumption that the quality of these electrons are better than the electrons flowing out of a stock cable? Once they enter the wires within the amplifier, do they corrupt the electrons in those wires?
I won’t say that’s impossible, but it does require a big leap of faith to say that’s why hyper expensive cables sound better. I doubt there is one iota of science to support it, and I don’t think it’s even logical. My friend in Italy is manufacturing some cables that he claims he makes using some mystical method that he cannot divulge that makes it the best in the world! And that all others are choking your stereo. I call BS, he claims it’s easily demonstrable, but won’t let me try one before I buy, since they are so super expensive and takes two weeks to manufacture. I used to have great respect for the guy, but, this episode doesn’t instill confidence. Heck, I’ve thought about selling some junk with a ton of techno-babble attached to get rich before, but I’m just too honest to let myself go there. Perhaps that’s my loss?
Russell
Well you still have to be able to drop the needle on the record. Perhaps you only thought the music was playing?[emoji2] but you may be right about the upgrades after drugs, but it’s more of where you choose to put your money?
Russ
Well the magic mushrooms were free, (and legal, back then, providing they were not prepared after picking which they were not) and I'd only listen to tapes when in that condition. Anyway 30 of them is not an especially strong effect, I wasn't tripping balls or anything. But the sonic enhancement was huge.
Well it sounds as though you have a much greater understanding of the situation than I do!
But let’s say my friend’s theory is correct, electrons are moving back and forth only in the “Good Copper”, do we jump to the assumption that the quality of these electrons are better than the electrons flowing out of a stock cable? Once they enter the wires within the amplifier, do they corrupt the electrons in those wires?
I won’t say that’s impossible, but it does require a big leap of faith to say that’s why hyper expensive cables sound better. I doubt there is one iota of science to support it, and I don’t think it’s even logical. My friend in Italy is manufacturing some cables that he claims he makes using some mystical method that he cannot divulge that makes it the best in the world! And that all others are choking your stereo. I call BS, he claims it’s easily demonstrable, but won’t let me try one before I buy, since they are so super expensive and takes two weeks to manufacture. I used to have great respect for the guy, but, this episode doesn’t instill confidence. Heck, I’ve thought about selling some junk with a ton of techno-babble attached to get rich before, but I’m just too honest to let myself go there. Perhaps that’s my loss?
Russell
I often make up my own cables (usually interconnects but I have made up mains cables). The secret is to align the length of cable along a lay-line for at least 24 hours before you work on it, and only fit the connectors under the light of a full moon. ;)
I often make up my own cables (usually interconnects but I have made up mains cables). The secret is to align the length of cable along a lay-line for at least 24 hours before you work on it, and only fit the connectors under the light of a full moon. ;)
sounds like a horny old naval tale to me. arr me heartys
I often make up my own cables (usually interconnects but I have made up mains cables). The secret is to align the length of cable along a lay-line for at least 24 hours before you work on it, and only fit the connectors under the light of a full moon. ;)
Sounds more scientific than most!
Russell
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well the magic mushrooms were free, (and legal, back then, providing they were not prepared after picking which they were not) and I'd only listen to tapes when in that condition. Anyway 30 of them is not an especially strong effect, I wasn't tripping balls or anything. But the sonic enhancement was huge.
Oh! Well, my experience was quite different. There weren’t any growing wild where I lived, and ones we pad for were extreme, two tops and you were praying for mercy! Laugh ‘til you blow snot! And your face hurt from smiling for two days after. The 70’s were a great time to be young.
Russell
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
walpurgis
04-06-2018, 20:20
The 70’s were a great time to be young
Yup!:D
chris@panteg
05-06-2018, 11:56
Has anyone ever tried Titan audio mains cables?
I've heard some rather bold claims from a dealer about these, and I'm naturally rather sceptical but I'll keep an open mind.
Thoughts?
nonuffin
05-06-2018, 13:28
Has anyone ever tried Titan audio mains cables?
I've heard some rather bold claims from a dealer about these, and I'm naturally rather sceptical but I'll keep an open mind.
Thoughts?
I have. Compared one to an MCRU No 75 and the latter was much better. Well made too.
nonuffin
06-06-2018, 07:38
The maths are quite straightforward.
Assume the conductor is copper, which has about 8.5 1028 conduction electrons per m3.
Each electron carries a charge of 1.6 10-19 Coulombs.
So in a 1 metre length of wire, 1mm in diameter, there are 6.7 1022 conduction electrons with a total charge of about 104 Coulombs.
A current of 1A corresponds to a charge flow rate of 1 Coulomb/second, so at that rate it would take 104seconds for the total conduction charge in 1 metre of conductor (with a diameter of 1mm) to flow past a given point. Thus the average drift velocity is 0.1mm/second.
So for an AC mains current alternating at 50Hz, during the first half cycle of 10ms, the electrons will drift 0.001mm, and in the second half cycle they will drift 0.001mm back again.
However despite the small drift velocity, the individual electrons are subject to thermal excitations and these give the electrons a much higher Fermi velocity of about 1.6 106m/sec, or about 1010 higher than the drift velocity. Despite the high Fermi velocity electrons do not travel at this rate because they undergo collisions and are constantly being deflected from a straight line path. Owing to thermal excitation of the copper atoms, the conduction electrons are deflected because of this interaction. It is this interaction that results in the positive thermal coeffcient of resistance of metals. As the temperature rises so does the vibration of the atoms and the probability of an electron being deflected increases. The mean free path between collisions falls, so the acceleration by the electric field has less effect before the electron is deflecte in more or less random manner. The current produced by a given field falls and this corresponds to a higher resistance.
Electron scattering will also occur due to defects such as impurities and crystal dislocations (grain boundaries). The effect of these can be estimated because they have a far lower temperature dependance than the thermal scattering effect. If the conductor is cooled towards absolute zero, the resistance doesn't fall to zero, but flattens out to a residual value determined by scattering from dislocations and impurities. For oxygen free copper, this residual resistance is about 1/70 (1.4%) of the resistivity at 20deg C; so the impurities make a contribution to the electron scattering of only 1.4%. And even the thermal scattering is low: the mean free path in copper at 20deg C is about 5 10-8m, so on average an electron passes 200 atoms without interaction before being deflected from a straight line path.
To put the impurity scattering effect into perspective, this contributes ~ 1.4% to the overall scattering. So eliminating all impurities and dislocations would only reduce the resistance by 1.4%. A temperature rise of 2 - 3deg C would add more resistance than the elimination of all impurities would remove.
Reducing crystal boundary dislocations (often called grain boundaries) and othe dislocations beyond a certain level is pointless because even if a perfect single crystal is produced, the effect of just bending the wire beyond its elestic limit (where it will spring back to its original shape) will be to create massive dislocations of the crystal structure, so such a perfect structure would be near imposible to maintain in practice.
Here's an interesting question Barry.
What are the dynamics that occur during arcing when then is no conduction medium except air?
I am and always have been utterly fascinated by lightning and to date I have not seen a comprehensive analysis of how lightning forms or discharges, except for positive and negative electrons accumulating in the atmosphere bulding up huge charges. Then along comes the discovery of Sprites in the upper atmosphere which has thrown a curved ball at the scientists.
Here's an interesting question Barry.
What are the dynamics that occur during arcing when then is no conduction medium except air?
I am and always have been utterly fascinated by lightning and to date I have not seen a comprehensive analysis of how lightning forms or discharges, except for positive and negative electrons accumulating in the atmosphere bulding up huge charges. Then along comes the discovery of Sprites in the upper atmosphere which has thrown a curved ball at the scientists.
Sorry - I'm no expert, but you might find the Wikipedia article of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
There is some though that naturally occurring radon help with ionisation; which is why lightning strikes at sea are rare.
Mention was made of fulgurites, formed when lightning strikes sady soil. I came across some when I was trekking in Mauritania, and kept them as a souvenir.
'Sprites' are a different phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(lightning)
have not read the whole thread but has anyone here got an opinion on "audio grade" fuses??????
mains cables are usually 1m plus in length but these things are no more than an inch!!!!
Bigman80
09-06-2018, 21:42
have not read the whole thread but has anyone here got an opinion on "audio grade" fuses??????
mains cables are usually 1m plus in length but these things are no more than an inch!!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣 god no. Let's not.
I know someone who has uber expensive fuses contained in a custom velvet lined box. He dare not use them in case they fuse. :scratch:
Lawrence001
09-06-2018, 23:02
I know someone who has uber expensive fuses contained in a custom velvet lined box. He dare not use them in case they fuse. :scratch:Nothing wrong with that, after all how many penny black collectors stick them on their letters :)
Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
I know someone who has uber expensive fuses contained in a custom velvet lined box. He dare not use them in case they fuse. :scratch:
or in case they didn't:D
have not read the whole thread but has anyone here got an opinion on "audio grade" fuses??????
mains cables are usually 1m plus in length but these things are no more than an inch!!!!
I have a bunch of 'em in my system, works for me.
One of those tweaks though that I'd only put in once the main parts of your system are sorted, then better interconnects and...ahem...mains cables. :D
It all makes a difference in my experience, just depends how deep down the rabbit hole you wish to go.
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