View Full Version : A good dac costs a minimum of £3000
Covenant
09-02-2010, 22:08
This is a comment on Wigwam by a respected founder member.
I offer no opinion but I would like yours.......
This is a comment on Wigwam by a respected founder member.
I offer no opinion but I would like yours.......
That's just crazy talk!
Stratmangler
09-02-2010, 22:29
I suggest that the chap is a contortionist, and that his head is jammed up his own backside.
Chris;)
The Vinyl Adventure
09-02-2010, 22:31
sounds like toss and balls to me... but yeah i would agree with alex, it depends on your definition of good. the 7520 is a good dac
im pretty certain dimitri will have a view on this ... no presure buddy :)
Ali Tait
09-02-2010, 22:45
I suggest that the chap is a contortionist, and that his head is jammed up his own backside.
Chris;)
:lol: Indeed.Chris,you need to hear Nick's sabre dac with the PP 6n6p output stage.Sounds brilliant!
tubehunter
09-02-2010, 22:50
yes,
I have just built a wolfson dac with a srpp 6n6p output stage, best yet!
Ali Tait
09-02-2010, 22:57
Yep Duncan,sounds good doesn't it! I was gobsmacked.Cheap as chips valve too.Nick was using some Sowter outputs.Larvley!
Stratmangler
09-02-2010, 23:00
:lol: Indeed.Chris,you need to hear Nick's sabre dac with the PP 6n6p output stage.Sounds brilliant!
I will soon, hopefully. Knowing Nick things will not sound nice for nice' sake. Next meet perhaps ?
I've got my Caiman, which is no slouch. And a steal at less than 10% of the suggested entry price.
A good friend has just bought a Chord Electronics Chordette Bluetooth DAC, and that sounds pretty splendiferous at around £400. And that's streaming files from a laptop with a common old garden Bluetooth dongle.
Chris:)
my "define good" wasn't in any way meant to be inflamatory toward Jerry, BTW - just that there are many definitions of good!
Thought those Chordette things were meant for playin' toons off mobile phones, no, yes,:confused:.
Ali Tait
09-02-2010, 23:18
Like to have a listen to one.Chord dacs are nice.
Stratmangler
09-02-2010, 23:22
Thought those Chordette things were meant for playin' toons off mobile phones, no, yes,:confused:.
Anything with Bluetooth will do - doesn't have to be a mobile phone.
Chris:)
:lol: Indeed.Chris,you need to hear Nick's sabre dac with the PP 6n6p output stage.Sounds brilliant!
Good old Nick posted the circuit, dead simple, just need some Sowters now:eyebrows:
A good dac costs a minimum of £3000
This is a comment on Wigwam by a respected founder member.
I offer no opinion but I would like yours.......
There is nothing in a top-notch dac (made in Europe) that could make it cost more than £1000, the nice case and the expensive power supply included. What is the "remaining" £2000 for ? Seller's profit ? :rolleyes:
A shame that "respected members" spread such nonsense. That's my opinion.
Covenant
10-02-2010, 08:03
my "define good" wasn't in any way meant to be inflamatory toward Jerry, BTW - just that there are many definitions of good!
No problem Alex. I posted the comment so I could get lots of opinion about what constitued 'good'. Personally I have never heard a dac in that price range but I guess a fair percentage of the cost is in the packaging!
I would enjoy Stan's view on this topic.:)
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 08:06
A good DAC can cost less than £200, as the TC-7510 and 7520 have shown.
An excellent DAC can cost less than £400. Caiman, DacMagic are typical candidates.
An outstanding DAC can cost less than £1000. It's just a shame that there are no obvious contenders in that price region.
Indeed - "good" to look at, "good" to use, sounds "good" - Stan, stick a Caiman in a fancy box, add a line in or 2, and remote control, £3,495 - job done!
Remember fellas, at top end markups, your £3000 DAC would cost probably £5 - 600 to make and at least half of this would be the casework...
I'm intrigued about the valve DAC. I'm still blowing hot and cold about getting my CD player fixed, as it's too heavy to reliably send anywhere and paying the likes of Audiocom to mod it may not be worthwhile if the laser packs up shortly after...
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 10:11
I would prefer to use a different name to Caiman if I was to undertake such a task. If there are any suggestions, we can start a new topic on that maybe.
I would prefer to use a different name to Caiman if I was to undertake such a task. If there are any suggestions, we can start a new topic on that maybe.
Yes, please ! I have plenty of ideas ! ;)
The Grand Wazoo
10-02-2010, 10:38
I like the reptile/crocodilian reference of the Caiman.
A top of the line Standac ought to be called the Beresford Archos after the Archosaurs or 'Ruling Reptiles'
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/archosauria.html
I expect Mr Themis would prefer the Beresford Dimetrodon though!
http://www.search4dinosaurs.com/rm_dimetrodon.jpg
I expect Mr Themis would prefer the Beresford Dimetrodon though!
:lol: :D
Filterlab
10-02-2010, 10:48
I can sell him my DAC for £3,000. It'll be good enough for him and it'll certainly be good for me. :)
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 10:52
Isn't Archos already being used by another audio product?
Yes, it is a portable MP3 player/tablette/Netbook firm.
The Grand Wazoo
10-02-2010, 11:14
A brand rather than a model name, I think Stan.
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 11:30
It doesn't roll off the tongue in a fashionable sense to me. Anyhow, keep those names flowing:).
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 11:38
Hmm. I was thinking more along the lines of half a Grand...
A guy I knew had a business called Le Grand.
One name that sticks in my mind to use is also from my neck of the woods (the Amazone jungle, where I was born). It's Fer De lance. The reason for that can be found in Wikipedia:
It is a member of the group of snakes known as pit vipers. Like other pit vipers it has two indentations or 'pits' behind and above the nostrils which can detect a rise or drop in temperature of just 0.001degrees C, allowing it to detect warm-blooded mammals. These 'pits', coupled with its tongue to 'taste' the air, allow the fer-de-lance to strike with great accuracy even in total darkness.
That kind of describes digital data reproduction accuracy.
'The Beresford Demi-Grande'
DanJennings
10-02-2010, 11:41
Yes, it is a portable MP3 player/tablette/Netbook firm.
I have one of them, the 160gb archos 605 wifi
http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/digitalmusic/0,39029995,49292004,00.htm
Filterlab
10-02-2010, 11:47
I would prefer to use a different name to Caiman if I was to undertake such a task. If there are any suggestions, we can start a new topic on that maybe.
A couple off the top of my head;
Beresford Linear
Beresford Definition
Beresford Paramount
Beresford Virtuoso
Beresford Diaphanous
The Vinyl Adventure
10-02-2010, 11:54
Hmm. I was thinking more along the lines of half a Grand...
A guy I knew had a business called Le Grand.
One name that sticks in my mind to use is also from my neck of the woods (the Amazone jungle, where I was born). It's Fer De lance. The reason for that can be found in Wikipedia:
It is a member of the group of snakes known as pit vipers. Like other pit vipers it has two indentations or 'pits' behind and above the nostrils which can detect a rise or drop in temperature of just 0.001degrees C, allowing it to detect warm-blooded mammals. These 'pits', coupled with its tongue to 'taste' the air, allow the fer-de-lance to strike with great accuracy even in total darkness.
That kind of describes digital data reproduction accuracy.
http://translate.google.com/#fr|en|fer%20de%20lance
that works too
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 12:04
OT: I got chased by one of these in a bedroom once. I eventually dispatched it with a wooden coat hanger.
Filterlab
10-02-2010, 12:23
OT: I got chased by one of these in a bedroom once. I eventually dispatched it with a wooden coat hanger.
A £3,000 DAC or an Archos?
:lol:
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 12:34
A Fer De Lance:).
The Grand Wazoo
10-02-2010, 12:41
What about this – it's in keeping with both the reptilian theme and the spelling of the Caiman: The Beresford Taipan
The Coastal Taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus): fourth most venomous land snake in the world.
Now that would be a killer DAC!!!!
Ali Tait
10-02-2010, 14:22
Good old Nick posted the circuit, dead simple, just need some Sowters now:eyebrows:
You won't regret it!
Ali Tait
10-02-2010, 14:24
Stan,how about the Beresford Black Mamba?
OT: I got chased by one of these in a bedroom once. I eventually dispatched it with a wooden coat hanger.
:lolsign:
You should have got yourself a pet tarantula ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boZebIFn0P0
Beresford diamondback
Berersford Sidewinder
Beresford Viper
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 16:15
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/aos/watooka1.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
10-02-2010, 16:35
Is that you Stan?
Hehehe......I've got plenty of snake stories from my childhood in Pakistan & Central Africa, but none of 'em feature a coathanger!
Defended my sister from attack by a Puff Adder with a garden fork, though - ppfffffffffffffffttt, just like a balloon deflating!
I also have a tale of a nest of scorpions in the mechanism of my Dad's Garrard.....
Hasn't someone just re-boxed a £500 Oppo DVD player (allegedly) and are charging £3,000 for it?
Hasn't someone just re-boxed a £500 Oppo DVD player (allegedly) and are charging £3,000 for it?
Yes. It wasn't "good enough", though: if "a good dac costs £3k" a "good DVD player costs £5000"... :lol:
I've got my Caiman, which is no slouch. And a steal at less than 10% of the suggested entry price.
With an approx budget of £20 a month, even I could afford that. I'm really envious. :(
Maybe one day Goldmund will rebox a Beresford. On a sound per pound basis it would be worth at least £10K :lolsign:
StanleyB
10-02-2010, 17:52
Anyone fancy using Frontpanel Designer (http://www.schaeffer-ag.de/index.php?id=97&L=1) to design an aftermarket front and rear panel for the Caiman? I started on one, but haven't finished it yet. Good panel design program that is. Can turn a Caiman into a Crocodile.
The Grand Wazoo
10-02-2010, 18:09
Now surely that would be a wolf in wolf's clothing?
Has anyone heard from Carson, he was making a new case for his
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4933
aquapiranha
10-02-2010, 18:16
not a naimee is he?
theres a speaker cable already had that name...
and something else, that reminds me I need to clear out the cupboards....;)
Anyone fancy using Frontpanel Designer (http://www.schaeffer-ag.de/index.php?id=97&L=1) to design an aftermarket front and rear panel for the Caiman? I started on one, but haven't finished it yet. Good panel design program that is. Can turn a Caiman into a Crocodile.
Ach pish tish...
Just use Autocad like us old Pro's.....
Export to *.stl format and your jammin... ;)
StanleyB
11-02-2010, 07:28
It's obvious that you don't know how Frontpanel Designer works.
The software allows you to design your own front panel, get an instant quote from within the software on how much it would cost to get it made, and send your design from within the program to a company in Germany ( or US). They'll make the panel for you and send it to you once you pay them.
So it's good for one off projects and prototyping.
Tongue in cheek there Stan, but yeah it sounds great, particularly being able to upload your design for a direct quote on costings..
I did not know that :)
Has anyone heard from Carson, he was making a new case for his
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4933
I haven't left, I am indeed still about:lol:
I've had to put the project on hold for a little while whilst I finish the last couple of months of my degree. Almost there though, so not long until I can continue with the case. :)
It's obvious that you don't know how Frontpanel Designer works.
The software allows you to design your own front panel, get an instant quote from within the software on how much it would cost to get it made, and send your design from within the program to a company in Germany ( or US). They'll make the panel for you and send it to you once you pay them.
So it's good for one off projects and prototyping.
The only thing I think they are missing is the option for panel finishing AFTER machining.
A good DAC can cost less than £200, as the TC-7510 and 7520 have shown.
An excellent DAC can cost less than £400. Caiman, DacMagic are typical candidates.
An outstanding DAC can cost less than £1000. It's just a shame that there are no obvious contenders in that price region.
I give you the Havana ..
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1208/mhdt_labs_havana.htm
I'm actually comparing it to a borrowed Caiman as we speak and it has a slightly different balance to the Caiman.
The Caiman is a full force in your face type sound. The bass is strong and hard and tons of detail seems to be thrown at you.
The Havana is slightly weaker bass, more laid back in the upper mids but with a bit more resolution, a slightly better stereo image and is more 3D like in sound.
For eg. with the Caiman, the sound never spreads wider than the speakers and never really moves from the one plain. The Havana does go wider than the speakers and has an obvious front/back perspective. The Caiman seems to miss some of the finer details in a recording because of the single plain while the Havana lets you hear vocal/instrument double tracking a lot more.
The Havana is nearly 3 times the price of the Caiman though and unless your hifi/music has the resolution for it then you probably won't notice the difference. It took me quite a few CDs to notice any major difference, the main contender being Pink Floyd - Meddle (Seamus and St Tropez being the stand out tracks where it's obvious)
Anyway , I'm liking this Caiman with heavy music... maybe I'll take the plunge soon :)
Covenant
11-02-2010, 19:35
Seamus the dog-haven't heard that for ages. Not one of their best I don't think.
Wonder if the 15v regulation and improved capacitors will do anything for 3D
imaging?
StanleyB
11-02-2010, 20:25
I give you the Havana ..
The Havana is slightly weaker bass, more laid back in the upper mids but with a bit more resolution, a slightly better stereo image and is more 3D like in sound.
It appears from the symptoms that you describe that they are using a pseudo stereo Left/Right mix, instead of a straight forward L/R projection. The slightly weaker bass gives it away:). On amplifiers of old there used to be a Stereo Width Controller that you could use to vary the stereo image to taste.
that would mess up the phase of the audio would it not , especially if playing a mono signal?
StanleyB
11-02-2010, 21:38
Heard any good mono track lately? My 78 TT packed up decades ago.
Sorry, I'm not quite getting where you're comming from?
I use mono in/out of phase signals quite a bit when I set up my speakers for imaging.
All I'm saying is that if the DAC is using a pseuso L+R mix to widen the image then this would show up when I use a mono signal. I'm no technical expert but I assume image widening uses phase shifts of some sort ?
Hi Marc,
The Caiman is a full force in your face type sound. The bass is strong and hard and tons of detail seems to be thrown at you.
The Havana is slightly weaker bass, more laid back in the upper mids but with a bit more resolution, a slightly better stereo image and is more 3D like in sound.
Gosh, it just shows how people sometimes hear things differently! Weak bass??? I noticed quite the opposite when I heard one recently in a friend's (admittedly fairly high-end system with Tannoy Canterburys) - although it was this modified one with Clarity Cap MR caps Dave (swampy) did, shown here:
http://www.dms-audio.com/node/26
In my opinion, thus modified, it was as good as any modern DAC I've heard up to about £3k, and with bass to die for! :cool:
Marco.
How much would that mod cost Marco ?
interesting :)
I'm not entirely sure, Marc, but from using the same caps in the crossovers for my Tannoys:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_mr.html
...I'd say that there's about £150 worth of MRs used in the Havana, not including the cost of the Mica and Black Gates, and then labour on top - perhaps £300 in total?
Therefore, making the modified Havana around the £850 mark, but with a performance in my opinion of commercial DACs many times that price! If it catches on here, it could well become the next 'giant-killer' product in the digital domain to reach these shores....
If you want to know more then send a PM to Dave (Swampy), who I'm sure will be able to help :)
Marco.
StanleyB
11-02-2010, 23:45
All I'm saying is that if the DAC is using a pseuso L+R mix to widen the image then this would show up when I use a mono signal. I'm no technical expert but I assume image widening uses phase shifts of some sort ?
Pseudo stereo uses a blend of L&R. There is a good article posted HERE (http://sound.westhost.com/project21.htm) that describes it quite well. It's used in some headphone amps to remove the boomy bass that seems to originate from within the middle of one's head.
StanleyB
11-02-2010, 23:51
Therefore, making the modified Havana around the £850 mark, but with a performance in my opinion of commercial DACs many times that price! If it catches on here, it could well become the next 'giant-killer' product in the digital domain to reach these shores....
£850 is not quite the giant-killer type of price range I would say. sub £500 would be more like it.
Yup - it's all relative, Stan. However, if an £850 DAC sounds as good as a £3000 one, or more, then it's doing pretty well in my book ;)
The modified Havana I heard (shown in the link), trust me, was superb!
Marco.
StanleyB
12-02-2010, 00:21
The £235 Caiman ain't far off the £5K Naims and Linns. The Havana will have to do better than that.
Given what I've heard, I'm sure it will..... ;)
Marco.
Shanedudddy2
12-02-2010, 09:37
Stan, why does it seem to sound like a sales pitch anytime you mention the Caiman in any way shape or form, just seems unnecessary at time.
he's the guy who makes the Caiman?
I understand why I got the quick "knee jerk" response now.
Dave Hewitt
12-02-2010, 10:32
Hi
I was fortunate enough to have the above mentioned Havana dac in my system yesterday,compared to my £50 Richer sounds isodac it was no better nor infact any worse just different,if this is any yardstick I am not surprised it could be as good as or different sounding to a £3000 dac.The system consisted of ps3 transport,pass f3 and valve pre into Impulse h2 speakers,perhaps not the best but certainly good enough to compare these dacs through.Please note this is my opinion and ,perhaps others would come to a different conclusion,but £3000 for a dac,come on chaps.
Dave.
Yup - it's all relative, Stan. However, if an £850 DAC sounds as good as a £3000 one, or more, then it's doing pretty well in my book ;)
The modified Havana I heard (shown in the link), trust me, was superb!
Marco.
In my opinion, *any* today's dacs at £800 sound as good as previous £3k ones. You have really to try hard to do otherwise. ;)
What really puzzles me though is : why would someone need (or want) to modify a (not inexpensive) dac ? :scratch:
I'm not talking about people who like modifying anything they have, I'm puzzled about the common guys, here.
Also, I have the same opinion as Stan, here. ;)
You don't understand why people mod yet you agree with the guy whose new DAC is pretty much the same as the old one but has increased audio quality due to improved/modded parts ?
Stratmangler
12-02-2010, 11:18
I would prefer to use a different name to Caiman if I was to undertake such a task. If there are any suggestions, we can start a new topic on that maybe.
A Preamp with Data conversion.
How's about Predator for a name ?
Chris:)
Hi Dimitri,
In my opinion, *any* today's dacs at £800 sound as good as previous £3k ones. You have really to try hard to do otherwise.
We'll have to agree to differ there my friend - some of us covet classic multi-bit DACs with TDA1541s, and consider those (when suitably modified with high quality caps, etc) to be virtually unbeatable.
I'm afraid that I've yet to hear ANY modern DAC completely outperform my Audiocom-modifed Sony DAS-R1, which including all the Audiocom mods to-date, has cost me around £3k.
Don't get me wrong though, there are some very good modern DACs around, the Caiman being one of them, but in my experience, the situation is not as 'cut and dried' as you think.
What I dislike (in general) is the move today towards 'absolute detail retrieval' at the expense of tone and bass texture, which the likes of my Sony has in spades. It sounds much more like good vinyl than CD! Most (but not all) modern DACs I hear are too lightweight and 'toppy' sounding for my tastes - I just couldn't live with them, long-term :)
YMMV.
What really puzzles me though is : why would someone need (or want) to modify a (not inexpensive) dac ?
That's easy. To turn it into a potential 'giant-killer' of course! It's often the case that you can turn an already good DAC into a great one with some judicious modifications - I've heard the effect many times! :cool:
Also, for true 'giant-killer' DACs, look no further than Duncan (tubehunter's) D.I.Y valve-based designs - they are absolutely stunning for the ludicrously low prices he charges!!
Marco.
You don't understand why people mod yet you agree with the guy whose new DAC is pretty much the same as the old one but has increased audio quality due to improved/modded parts ?
Exactly. I must admit, I do find that a bit of a strange one myself!! :scratch:
Hi Dave,
I was fortunate enough to have the above mentioned Havana dac in my system yesterday,compared to my £50 Richer sounds isodac it was no better nor infact any worse just different,if this is any yardstick I am not surprised it could be as good as or different sounding to a £3000 dac...
That's also very strange.... :scratch:
I thought that Dave's modded Havana sounded fantastic in Ian's system against Duncan's (unquestionably superb) DAC - you were there too and I thought you agreed?
Marco.
Ali Tait
12-02-2010, 11:36
In my opinion, *any* today's dacs at £800 sound as good as previous £3k ones. You have really to try hard to do otherwise. ;)
What really puzzles me though is : why would someone need (or want) to modify a (not inexpensive) dac ? :scratch:
I'm not talking about people who like modifying anything they have, I'm puzzled about the common guys, here.
Also, I have the same opinion as Stan, here. ;)
Everything is built to a budget.Even expensive commercial kit is built with cheap components generally,so it's a good idea to have a look inside to see what would be worth swapping for something better.Good components can be bought a relatively little cost that will vastly improve the performance of said kit.Hence,the swapping to Clarity Cap MR's.If these were used in the original build,the price would be way beyond what it is,but it is relatively inexpensive for a DIY'er to purchase a couple to fit themselves.Makes sense to me.
Makes sense to me.
And me! x 10 ;)
Marco.
Filterlab
12-02-2010, 11:49
I'm afraid that I've yet to hear ANY modern DAC completely outperform my Audiocom-modifed Sony DAS-R1, which including all the Audiocom mods to-date, has cost me around £3k.
I think you've missed the point there a little. Your DAC is not a £3000 DAC at retail, it's a £3000 DAC after the cost of modifications which are much more cost effective in terms of sound per pound, which if course is the whole point of modifying something that's good quality in the first place.
I think what Dimitri is getting at (and correct me if I've misinterpreted) is if one had purchased a £3000 RRP DAC five years and compared it to an £800 RRP DAC today then there'd be little difference if any at all.
StanleyB
12-02-2010, 11:51
Stan, why does it seem to sound like a sales pitch anytime you mention the Caiman in any way shape or form, just seems unnecessary at time.
I can keep quiet and don't contribute anything towards the Caiman discussion if that's what is preferred:).
Dave Hewitt
12-02-2010, 11:51
Hi Marco
But I didnt have the isodac tocompare at the time.It seems to me that people are getting confused and its only variations in output stages that are being listened to.Correct me if i am wrong but arn't the copper dacs chinese generic dacs with valve output stages added,thus allowing the sound to be tailored to suit a, la lampizator. Different output topologies giving different or prefered sound.The most heavily modified dacs dont really change the dac, its only power supplies and components that are changed.I once repaired acd player for a guy that had been damaged in the post ,I dont know who had modifiedit but it had extra power supplies stuck to theoriginal power upply caps with silicone and also had pebbles from some beach stuck to many of the integrated circuits really ajoke in my view, no wonder it fell apart in the post .
I am led to believe that a new dac is being released by the guy who did the original isodac and that it will be the last dac you'll need.
Regards Dave.
Hi Dave,
Hi Marco
But I didnt have the isodac tocompare at the time.
Pop round to mine then, matey, and we'll compare it to the Sony - it would be good to see you again anyway... Tea and sandwiches are on me :)
It seems to me that people are getting confused and its only variations in output stages that are being listened to.Correct me if i am wrong but arn't the copper dacs chinese generic dacs with valve output stages added,thus allowing the sound to be tailored to suit a, la lampizator. Different output topologies giving different or prefered sound.
I don't know about that, so I can't really comment. You would need to ask Duncan. All I know is that the likes of his copper DAC (or my Sony) piss all over many other DACs I've heard so far, and as you know I've heard quite a few, at all different prices.
I tend not to get bogged down on the 'whys and wherefores' and just simply judge each DAC on its individual sonic merits, letting my ears be the final arbiter :cool:
The most heavily modified dacs dont really change the dac, its only power supplies and components that are changed.
Indeed. But in my experience, doing that simply allows you to hear more of the intrinsic qualities of the DAC, and hence better music with it!
This is precisely what the Audiocom mods do, for example.
I once repaired acd player for a guy that had been damaged in the post ,I dont know who had modifiedit but it had extra power supplies stuck to theoriginal power upply caps with silicone and also had pebbles from some beach stuck to many of the integrated circuits really ajoke in my view, no wonder it fell apart in the post .
He was clearly a bodger then, and not a professional. You need to know who you're dealing with when having something modified, unless you can do the work yourself.
I am led to believe that a new dac is being released by the guy who did the original isodac and that it will be the last dac you'll need.
I'd love to hear it, so if you get hold of one, bring it round for a listen. As you know, I remain as open-minded about these things as ever, and would gladly re-assess my opinion should I hear something which is genuinely better than what I'm using now :smoking:
Marco.
Hi Rob,
I think you've missed the point there a little. Your DAC is not a £3000 DAC at retail, it's a £3000 DAC after the cost of modifications...
I know what you're getting at matey, but the DAS-R1 (alone) retailed for around £2.5k in 1989! Therefore it was always an expensive DAC. As an aside, I wonder how much would that be in today's money? ;)
It cost me £1250 five years ago (along with the matching R1 transport - both of which together cost me £2500) before the Audiocom modifications, so I don't think the Sony qualifies as a valid example in this particular discussion.
Also, you heard it last year at Scalford Hall (in conjunction with Steve's Bel Canto transport), so I'm sure you'd agree that it would take one hell of a modern DAC to beat it :)
I think what Dimitri is getting at (and correct me if I've misinterpreted) is if one had purchased a £3000 RRP DAC five years and compared it to an £800 RRP DAC today then there'd be little difference if any at all.
If that's the case then I (partially) agree, presuming one agrees in general with the premise that Dimitri has put forward.
Marco.
Filterlab
12-02-2010, 12:23
Hi Rob,
I know what you're getting at matey, but the DAS-R1 retailed for around £2.5k in 1989! Therefore it was always an expensive DAC. As an aside, I wonder how much would that be in today's money? ;)
According to measuringworth.com/uk £2,500 in 1989 would now be £4,661.46 using the retail price index.
:stalks: Yikes!
Also, you heard it last year at Scalford Hall (in conjunction with Steve's Bel Canto transport), so I'm sure you'd agree that it would take one hell of a modern DAC to beat it :)
Of that I have no doubt mate. :)
Still, I have to say the best bit for me was that Stevie Ray Vaughn track spinning on your turntable through the copper amp - you remember the bit that made me swear out loud! :D
According to measuringworth.com/uk £2,500 in 1989 would now be £4,661.46 using the retail price index.
:stalks: Yikes!
Lol... You have to remember that the likes of the DAS-R1 (and CDP R1) were very specialised limited edition products, designed in the heyday of CD when the 'big boys', such as Sony, put all their resources and know-how into creating cost-no-object 'statement' products, designed to maximise the full potential of the (then) new technology :)
This just doesn't happen nowadays, as it's not commercially viable to do so without spending astronomical amounts of money. We have to accept that the days of truly great CDPs are (virtually) over.
Still, nowadays we have lossless music streaming, which when done well (in conjunction with a high-quality DAC) can be truly superb :cool:
Still, I have to say the best bit for me was that Stevie Ray Vaughn track spinning on your turntable through the copper amp - you remember the bit that made me swear out loud!
Hehehe... I do indeed, ye of (up until then) such little 'vinyl faith' ;)
It'll be even better this year, as since then, the T/T's had a new upgraded PSU and bearing.
Marco.
Hi Marco
I dont know who had modifiedit but it had extra power supplies stuck to theoriginal power upply caps with silicone and also had pebbles from some beach stuck to many of the integrated circuits really ajoke in my view, no wonder it fell apart in the post .
I am led to believe that a new dac is being released by the guy who did the original isodac and that it will be the last dac you'll need.
Regards Dave.
I was at Dave's when he was fixing this player...
The psu modules where audiocom ones, from the screen print, I remember. I think audiocom sell these as ready made psu modules to tweak your own player or dac. The modules were very nicely made if just a regulated psu on a single pcb. What was poor was the modules being stuck on top of main board caps acting as support.
Most bizarre was beach pebbles stuck on top of every IC on the main board... very odd tweak.. Not sure if it does anything.
Back to the Havana... I think it is a great little DAC. I preferred it at yours Dave compared to the Cambridge and similarly at Ian W's but as you say it is just a matter of personal taste. I like the fact it sounds quite 'analogue' were most DAC's may have more edgy and bite seem to leave a strong digital signature in the final sound.
Filterlab
12-02-2010, 12:59
Most bizarre was beach pebbles stuck on top of every IC on the main board... very odd tweak.. Not sure if it does anything.
Oh no, not a Machina Dynamica (http://www.machinadynamica.com) job! Some people seem to make a living from selling crap out of their garage.
Dave Hewitt
12-02-2010, 13:09
Hi
I bet these pebbles have the magical power of being capable of sending their seller on a bloody good holiday.I'm on my way to the beach.
Dave.
Filterlab
12-02-2010, 13:10
I bet these pebbles have the magical power of being capable of sending their seller on a bloody good holiday.
:D
Oh no, not a Machina Dynamica (http://www.machinadynamica.com) job! Some people seem to make a living from selling crap out of their garage.
Ooohhh...
Makers of
BRILLIANT PEBBLES
I once fitted a rubber cable entry grommet over the metal can crystal in my CD Player after reading in some forum of others doing this and that it made quite a difference. I can honestly say I could not hear any change. Must be my cloth ears. :rolleyes:
Anyhow, not to be dissuaded.. I have my pebbles standing by :lol:
The Grand Wazoo
12-02-2010, 14:03
Ok, I'll do it then.
I know you're all thinking it, but yer too afraid to say it, ya lilly livered chickens!:
This DAC Rocks
Filterlab
12-02-2010, 14:09
This DAC Rocks
Sheesh! :rolleyes:
:D
Hahahaha.... I tell you something though, NO WAY did Mark have anything to do with the bloody pebbles - whoever owned the DAC must've stuck them on themselves! :mental: :lol:
Hi Swamps,
Back to the Havana... I think it is a great little DAC. I preferred it at yours Dave compared to the Cambridge and similarly at Ian W's but as you say it is just a matter of personal taste.
I've not heard the Havana yet at mine - perhaps you could bring it round, as I would like to hear it in my own system? :)
I like the fact it sounds quite 'analogue' were most DAC's may have more edgy and bite seem to leave a strong digital signature in the final sound.
Totally agree. This is precisely why I prefer good old multi-bit TDA 1541s (done well), as I cannot stand the "edgy, strong digital signature" in DACs or CDPs, of which you speak.
Of course, neither do I like a 'warm, soggy, romantic' sound either - good job the Sony manages to sound suitably 'analogue-like', but with superb dynamics and clarity, too... In fact, just like vinyl does when done properly! ;)
Marco.
Filterlab
12-02-2010, 14:30
I once fitted a rubber cable entry grommet over the metal can crystal in my CD Player after reading in some forum of others doing this and that it made quite a difference. I can honestly say I could not hear any change. Must be my cloth ears.
I doubt it's anything to do with you / your system etc etc. :)
Dave Hewitt
12-02-2010, 14:59
Hi
After further extensive research I have discovered that pebbles from Chesil Beach in Dorset have the best effect on a dacs performance and the ones from Blackpool sound cheap and nasty, with a much smaller soundstage.
Dave.
The Vinyl Adventure
12-02-2010, 15:02
pebbles ha, BRILLIANT ha
i can just imagine the advert.. it might involve paul whitehouse...???
xgMgkl-gRxk
The Grand Wazoo
12-02-2010, 15:15
Hi
After further extensive research I have discovered that pebbles from Chesil Beach in Dorset have the best effect on a dacs performance and the ones from Blackpool sound cheap and nasty, with a much smaller soundstage.
Dave.
That may very well be so, but rock from Blackpool has 'Blackpool' written through it.
Whereas rock from New York has 'Sound Has Priority' written through it - and you can fold it up to fit it in CD jewel cases.
whoever owned the DAC must've stuck them on themselves! :mental: :lol: Marco.
Yes, probably a crazy mod thought up by some fanatic. I am sure I can come up with something equally mental given enough time. :stupid:
I may only have the Havana DAC for another week now. It is not mine and Val has been kind enough for not being in any rush for his ez-pre and dac back but I am sure he will want it back very soon. I have 2 new tubes for it now, both WE NOS
Guys, I've probably missed a bit in the 11 pages since the title but do we really beleive that you need to spend £3000 in order to get a "good dac"????
Seems a little ott. I'm sure you can put a little tlc into a sub £300 dac and turn up trumps?
I've recently built a "green DAC" which is TDA1541A based. It uses execellent regs throughout and has been modded in the clock supply area's. It also runs a fully discrete output stage. It is awesome!!!
OK so it only does std CD's but i'm curious as to why it is necessary to spen £3k to get a good DAC???!!!
Hi Dave,
I may only have the Havana DAC for another week now. It is not mine and Val has been kind enough for not being in any rush for his ez-pre and dac back but I am sure he will want it back very soon. I have 2 new tubes for it now, both WE NOS
Fancy bringing it round then, mate - bring t'other Dave, too? I would like to hear it. PM me :)
Marco.
OK so it only does std CD's but i'm curious as to why it is necessary to spend £3k to get a good DAC???!!!
Ha, I apply that same quote for my entire Hi-Fi cost :)
My entire system cost < 2K, most either DIY built or 2nd Hand off ePay
About 500 or 600 quid on a diy dac (parts) would give you something capable of kicking some serious arse
About 500 or 600 quid on a diy dac (parts) would give you something capable of kicking some serious arse
You'd not need to spend that much!!! about £100 on a diy ebay dac and £400 worth of "nice" bits will defo kick ass!!!:cool:
Here's my dac with hexfreds, Audiocom regs, Burson I/V and Ampohm decoupling caps and Tricord clock and lots of little bits I learned from the diy forum. I'd like to hear it against a £3k dac.....!!!!
Here's my dac with hexfreds, Audiocom regs, Burson I/V and Ampohm decoupling caps and Tricord clock and lots of little bits I learned from the diy forum. I'd like to hear it against a £3k dac.....!!!!
Does it come with a case, though? :lol:
;)
Marco.
P.S Have you got the link for AOS sorted yet on your site?
I very nearly listed that as a downside!!!!!
:lolsign:
In any case (bad bad joke) does the clear plastic Ferrero Rocher lid its in not count????!!!!
Kind of, I guess, Ian! :eyebrows:
What's the score on the linky-poo, then? You're getting plenty of free advertising here, muchacho, so..... ;)
Marco.
You'd not need to spend that much!!! about £100 on a diy ebay dac and £400 worth of "nice" bits will defo kick ass!!!:cool:
Here's my dac with hexfreds, Audiocom regs, Burson I/V and Ampohm decoupling caps and Tricord clock and lots of little bits I learned from the diy forum. I'd like to hear it against a £3k dac.....!!!!
When I say 500 to 600 this is for everything, I'd pit either of my two favourite dacs against anything regardless of price;) psu's and regulation cost more than the dac
Some of the dacs especially on ebay offer decent performance with some modding potential but their circuitry (mainly layout) can be their downfall.
I've tried quite a few of the cheapies (mainly nodding them for friends)
TBH Marco, I love the hit counter going up and up and up!!!!!!
The downside it that because I host some service manuals, I get an email nearly every month telling me to purchase more bandwidth from the hosting company!
I really should get more content on the site. I've currenty got 5 digital sources each with a story that should appear in my pages!
As I've said before, take a look through, if you find a link that may make me some ££££ let me know so I can follow up and collect my cash!!!!:eek:
Lol - that's not what I asked you Ian! When you joined AOS and I allowed you to post a link here to your website you promised that you would reciprocate and put a link to AOS on your site, along with the current ones to D.I.Y Audio, etc.....
Remember? This hasn't happened yet.
Marco.
appologies Marco!!!
Can you PM me any code/ grafix I should include and I'll get FTP'ing right away!:)
Hi Dave,
Fancy bringing it round then, mate - bring t'other Dave, too? I would like to hear it. PM me :)
Marco.
If Dave wants to I don't mind.
Hi Ian,
appologies Marco!!!
Can you PM me any code/ grafix I should include and I'll get FTP'ing right away!:)
No worries. Could you liaise with Rob (Filterlab) on this please? PM him to obtain the relevant details :)
Marco.
If Dave wants to I don't mind.
I'll ask he who owns a nice dressing gown, then! :eyebrows:
Marco.
psu's and regulation cost more than the dac
I'm not sure who said it or where I read it but I've said it before.....
When listening to music, you are really listening to the power supply!!!!:cool:
I'll ask he who owns a nice dressing gown, then! :eyebrows:
Marco.
why cant i post?
Eh? You've just done so!
Marco.
I'm not sure who said it or where I read it but I've said it before.....
When listening to music, you are really listening to the power supply!!!!:cool:
One of the problems with some of the cheapo dacs, not just poor regulation but having several parts of a circuit share one reg, long thin inductive tracks, poor grounding etc , upgraded regs do help but is more of a band aid if the layout of the circuit it feeds is poor.
One of the problems with the old TDA1541A based cdp's , a lot of places ran the digital filter from the same DC supply lines as the sensitive parts, those SAA7220's was damn noisy polluting the supply and everything else ran on that same supply
purite audio
13-02-2010, 00:55
Design a dac Leo ! Now!
Very Best Keith.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-02-2010, 01:27
TBH Marco, I love the hit counter going up and up and up!!!!!!
The downside it that because I host some service manuals, I get an email nearly every month telling me to purchase more bandwidth from the hosting company!
I really should get more content on the site. I've currenty got 5 digital sources each with a story that should appear in my pages!
As I've said before, take a look through, if you find a link that may make me some ££££ let me know so I can follow up and collect my cash!!!!:eek:
If you need some good value hosting and a company that won't moan at you... You can always come to my company, we host all the sites we build and we are very fair with are pricing, we are just looking for a few more sites to help pay the server bill at the mo... :) sorry for the hijack :)
One of the problems with some of the cheapo dacs, not just poor regulation but having several parts of a circuit share one reg, long thin inductive tracks, poor grounding etc , upgraded regs do help but is more of a band aid if the layout of the circuit it feeds is poor.
One of the problems with the old TDA1541A based cdp's , a lot of places ran the digital filter from the same DC supply lines as the sensitive parts, those SAA7220's was damn noisy polluting the supply and everything else ran on that same supply
I couldn't agree more! I've been playing on my latest toy a Meridian 206 using this chip combination. The very 1st thing I did was to give the SAA7220 Digital filter chip its own decent regulator. Its also a very greedy chip so the reg will need a heatsink. The result is the biggest single improvement I've ever carried out to any player. I'm not a fan of going NOS which is to bypass the filter chip. I think it makes the sound a bit thin. In anycase most NOS intructions on the net leave the clock distrubution to the filter chip?? this just lets the noise onto all the clock lines.
Im my main player every pin needing a supply through the decoder,filter,dac and output stage has its own reg and in some cases its own PSU. The servo area has some decent regulation but not as extensive as the rest of the player. This is what makes a great player imho!
btw, I love TDA1541's so much, I brought the domain name!!!:lolsign:
Hamish - I've literally just renewed for 12 months last week!! I wish i'd have known!
I think you've missed the point there a little. Your DAC is not a £3000 DAC at retail, it's a £3000 DAC after the cost of modifications which are much more cost effective in terms of sound per pound, which if course is the whole point of modifying something that's good quality in the first place.
I think what Dimitri is getting at (and correct me if I've misinterpreted) is if one had purchased a £3000 RRP DAC five years and compared it to an £800 RRP DAC today then there'd be little difference if any at all.
Exactly ! Thank you Rob. :)
The difference is even non-existent at all if we take dacs of ten-twelve years ago. It can be even changing sides if we go back in time.
And why so, would you ask ?
Well, first of all, because a dac is a simple circuit, without much of different possible solutions:
A receiver chip,
an (eventual) asynchronous re-sampling chip,
a clock,
a D/A chip, and
an (eventual) output stage.
As you can see, all of these components are factory-made, the manufacturers/models are very few (how many different S/PDIF receiver chips out there ?), and all the manufacturers are *very* close in quality terms compared to the competition.
Let alone that there's no much place for "artistic interpretation"(as it's the case for amplifiers, for instance) in implementing these chips correctly.
What changed the last years:
- The chips and reference boards are "mature" : Ten-fifteen years ago you needed a talented engineer to figure out how you could implement correctly a D/A chip. Even the manufacturer had very few specialists who could help (ask Pat [ar-t] who used to work as a advisor [and perhaps he still does] for them). Today, the manufacturers and the designers are aware of the previous difficulties.
- Receivers are much better. Nothing more to say about it.
- ASRCs simply didn't exist fifteen years ago.
- Clocks are *much* more accurate.
And all this costs almost nothing nowadays.
So... there's no much left to "tweak" except the output stage (I'm simplifying on purpose).
Now, problem is : there are D/A chips with a voltage output, so the output stage is... a cable directly to the RCA analog out !
How can you do "better" than a cable ? ;)
In conclusion, to obtain a very good dac twenty years ago you needed a bunch of talented engineers and a lot of over-engineering. To get the same result today, you need nothing of that.
You will still need talent to get exceptional results, of course. But, the difference between "very good" and "exceptional" is becoming smaller and smaller as time passes.
Because the initial format (redbook) has limitations, that were fixed when it was invented.
But, of course, I may be wrong. ;)
Everything is built to a budget.Even expensive commercial kit is built with cheap components generally,so it's a good idea to have a look inside to see what would be worth swapping for something better.Good components can be bought a relatively little cost that will vastly improve the performance of said kit.Hence,the swapping to Clarity Cap MR's.If these were used in the original build,the price would be way beyond what it is,but it is relatively inexpensive for a DIY'er to purchase a couple to fit themselves.Makes sense to me.
I have no problem with DYIers Ali: it's their passion and I can understand that.
I have a problem about the others, that sometimes buy a dac worth £200 and add for £400 of modifications for getting... no more (but eventually less ?) than what a £600 dac can have. :)
I have a problem about the others, that sometimes buy a dac worth £200 and add for £400 of modifications for getting... no more (but eventually less ?) than what a £600 dac can have. :)
I couldn't agree less! In my experience, a £200 retail DAC modded with £400's worth of carefully selected upgrades to power supplys, clocking and output stage will absolutely wipe the floor with a £600 retail dac.
I was going to buy (I had it on home demo) a Musical Fidelity A5.5 cdp. It was an ex demo unit marked up at £1200. I beleive the retail price was nearer £2000. I didn't buy it in the end because it just wasn't good enough. I can absolutely guarantee you that I can make a 2nd hand std Marantz cd63 (not KI) sound better for less than £500 including the cost of the player (and i'd stick a new laser in it for that price)!
I accept you're initial comments. Indeed, there were some exceptionally clever people in the early days of DAC design. These days, it is much easier. As you say the hard work has already been done!
I couldn't agree less! In my experience, a £200 retail DAC modded with £400's worth of carefully selected upgrades to power supplys, clocking and output stage will absolutely wipe the floor with a £600 retail dac.
Ian, a pity we can't organize a simple test. :eyebrows:
Nevertheless, this contradicts the "built to a budget" pattern, don't you think ? Unless you consider that more expensive products are simply hype. :)
Hi Dimitri
clearly in the retail sector, the more you spend, the better you'll get. I do believe that there is a marketing strategy and that some equipment uses crap components because it needs to fit a certain level. You can easily quite dramatically improve most equipment by simply replacing some cheap components with some slightly more focused (the therefore more expensive) components.
For example. The Marantz CD43, 53, 63, KI’s and SE’s all use identical transport mech and the same single PCB! The 43 had no HDAM, the 63 does. The 63 SE uses better caps and chassis re enforcement and the KI has a copper plated chassis and a toroid transformer on top of that. Clearly marketing and a desire to place model at certain market levels is demonstrated here.
I’ve yet to come across anything that is so high end that it it not possible to improve it!!!!!
Call me a cynic, but I beleive a lot of retail equipment is down tuned for market placement. If it was as good as it could be, there would be no easy way to market the 'better' products.
Ian
Call me a cynic, but I beleive a lot of retail equipment is down tuned for market placement. If it was as good as it could be, there would be no easy way to market the 'better' products.
Ian
Ok, I can understand this. :)
Yet, I believe that the situation is not so "crystal-clear" with dacs, mainly because most manufacturers have only one or two products in their line. ;)
indeed, bu thow many of them use anything better than an LM317/337 voltage regulator. The fact is that al large percentage will use std 78/79xx types which to be honest are rubbish for audio. In addition, PSU caps are not likely to be particularly low in esr and there will have been little if any consideration over the sound character of any local decoupling.
As stated " you are listening to the power supply not the music". This is very much accepted. Any of the low noise regulators will make a significant 'improvement'. This along with additional seperate supplys to the various pins needing the juice, decent caps both pre and post reg and having it all attached as close to the pin as possible will make a big difference for sure!
Ali Tait
13-02-2010, 11:22
I think manufacturers deliberately make their cheaper gear sound poorer than their more expensive stuff i.e. they go out of their way to do this in order to justify the existence of their more expensive kit.
EDIT-Ha! just noticed you said the same thing Ian.
StanleyB
13-02-2010, 12:24
indeed, bu thow many of them use anything better than an LM317/337 voltage regulator. The fact is that al large percentage will use std 78/79xx types which to be honest are rubbish for audio. In addition, PSU caps are not likely to be particularly low in esr and there will have been little if any consideration over the sound character of any local decoupling.
Why don't you start designing audio equipment and put them on the market so that the buying public and audio expert can judge your true knowledge of what you write?
The LM317/337 are only as good as the circuitry built around it, and the 7812SR would run rings around just about every other regulator out on the market at any price.
Low ESR caps don't always work according to expectation within the circuit they are deployed. Just deciding to use a component because one or more of its specs look good on paper often leads to hasty product modification at a later stage.
Decoupling is done according to the requirement that are demanded either by the component manufacturer, or by CE and EMC certification requirement if a manufacturer wants to get product approval. Product manufacturers can no longer ignore those requirements, even if it impacts on the sonic performance of their equipment.
Neither is the retail price of a component much of an indication of its ability. The manufacturing cost or bulk buying cost is a far more accurate indicator. Some parts are marked up by an astonishing 1000% by the time they are passed on to a customer over the counter at say the likes of Maplin. It's a nice earner for some when it comes to selling spares retail wise.
Why don't you start designing audio equipment and put them on the market so that the buying public and audio expert can judge your true knowledge of what you write?
The LM317/337 are only as good as the circuitry built around it, and the 7812SR would run rings around just about every other regulator out on the market at any price.
Low ESR caps don't always work according to expectation within the circuit they are deployed. Just deciding to use a component because one or more of its specs look good on paper often leads to hasty product modification at a later stage.
Decoupling is done according to the requirement that are demanded either by the component manufacturer, or by CE and EMC certification requirement if a manufacturer wants to get product approval. Product manufacturers can no longer ignore those requirements, even if it impacts on the sonic performance of their equipment.
Neither is the retail price of a component much of an indication of its ability. The manufacturing cost or bulk buying cost is a far more accurate indicator. Some parts are marked up by an astonishing 1000% by the time they are passed on to a customer over the counter at say the likes of Maplin. It's a nice earner for some when it comes to selling spares retail wise.
FACT 78xx regs are total shit in audio!
I'm beguining to think this is personal????
1st the DAC upgrade thread. I refused to react to your baiting.
2nd you made sure that you pointed out some facts i'd missed on the differences between the Marantz CD94 and the Philips CD960
3rd you now post with a very aggressive negative tone here.
Not once have I said anything negative about you or you products, in fact quite the opposite.
I think you accidentaly missed some words off of the start of your sentance Stanley
If you think you're so good, "Why don't you start designing audio equipment and put them on the market so that the buying public and audio expert can judge your true knowledge of what you write?"
Seriously, I really don't need to be posting here if all you are going to do is nagatively follow up every post I make.
I will be making a PSU for Chrism. I will used the very very very good SPower regulator from audioupgrades.co.uk and it will be a massive upgrade over the std unit.
Not sure if its a reaction you are looking for but you got one now:steam:
Ian, Stan is always a straight-talking guy. There's no offense to be taken and I think his "start designing audio equipment" phrase is just a way of saying (a bit abruptly) that he has personal experience that back up his arguments.
I don't think he meant to be rude, imho. That's the way I understand it.
To come back to power supplies, indeed powering all these chips in a proper way is the "Achille's heel" of dacs' design. But, I hope (I really hope) that all designers are aware of this. It seems trivial to me.
But, as we said earlier, there's a market-to-price compromise to make. ;)
Chill, muchachos - it's all about different opinions, and we're all entitled to them! :peace:
Marco.
So what is the best sounding new DAC available for over £1k? (unmodded)
By best I mean , clearest, most detailed, well balanced and with great imaging. Not some sterile clinical gizmo that looks good on paper.
Did you mean up to or around £1k, Marc - otherwise the sky's the limit! ;)
I liked this bit, btw:
By best I mean , clearest, most detailed, well balanced and with great imaging. Not some sterile clinical gizmo that looks good on paper.
Top man! :respect:
Marco.
Well, around £1k - £2k'ish , but without going into paying for bling.
I know this price bracket goes into the studio DAC/Audio interface range here but then you're paying for none-hi fi bits like multi-channels, MADI, external clock inputs and other bits someone just plugging in a USB/SPDIF cable wouldn't actually use.
So what is the best sounding new DAC available for over £1k? (unmodded)
By best I mean , clearest, most detailed, well balanced and with great imaging. Not some sterile clinical gizmo that looks good on paper.
Good question:lol:
Obviously its all personal opinion so perhaps some could add a list, be interesting see what folks think anyway
purite audio
13-02-2010, 17:06
Weiss DACII through firewire, not only is it a superb dac, it is a preamp with properly dithered digital attenuator and it is a firewire interface if you want to use it with another dac.
Keith.
Not some sterile clinical gizmo that looks good on paper.
:scratch:
Personally I'd want something that doesn't sound of anything at all. And to me, that means sterile and clinically clean. After all, sterile means free of contaminants and for that price I wouldn't want anything to contaminate the sound.
Ali Tait
13-02-2010, 17:41
The Modwright modified Logitech Transporter is supposed to be very good indeed.I've not heard one myself,but been told by a friend that it was the best digital source he'd ever heard regardless of price.
:scratch:
Personally I'd want something that doesn't sound of anything at all. And to me, that means sterile and clinically clean. After all, sterile means free of contaminants and for that price I wouldn't want anything to contaminate the sound.
unless you're listening to the same gear in the same room as the mastering engineer , your sound is already totally coloured.
Having a dac with a bit of bloom in is the least of your worries.
A Weiss is surely a reference, as Keith says. A Lavry, too, imho.
A Northstar 192MKII is also a great dac (£1250): one of my favorites.
A Weiss is surely a reference, as Keith says. A Lavry, too, imho.
A Northstar 192MKII is also a great dac (£1250): one of my favorites.
Yeah just been reading up on the DAC II Weiss. Looks a bit ugly but got great reviews.
Yeah just been reading up on the DAC II Weiss. Looks a bit ugly but got great reviews.
I would have send you my Northstar for a try, but I promised it to someone on PFM. :(
Are you selling it Demitri ?
I hadn't really thought about a DAC upgrade until I read this thread and borrowed the Caiman.
I think the DAC is possibly the weak link in my system , even though I've never heard a digital source that really beats it (yet)
I wonder if prism Dac's are competitive still. I heard one used into a large PMC bryston system some years ago and it sounded superb. this particular pro dac sold for around £2500 back then..
I've taken a step back during the afternoon and calmed down, but I'm afraid I cannot refrain form comment.....
Ian, Stan is always a straight-talking guy. There's no offense to be taken and I think his "start designing audio equipment" phrase is just a way of saying (a bit abruptly) that he has personal experience that back up his arguments. I don't think he meant to be rude Sorry but I'm afraid I don't see it that way. After repeated reply's to my posts as opposed to the general thread direction, I do not see how it can be taken in any other way. If you can't make a subjective point without being rude, then you have no place in an open forum.
1st the DAC upgrade thread. I refused to react to your baiting. You repeatedly posted in a manor that I found offensive. Several other forum members commented on that fact that you were more than a little hostile but you refused to comment further when it was suggested that an apology may be appropriate.
2nd you made sure that you pointed out some facts that I’d missed on the differences between the Marantz CD94 and the Philips CD960.why did you feel the need to join in for a single post and point out my over simplification. If you had something constructive to add to the entire thread, then please join in. Don't just pick me up in a couple of minor inaccuracies. Again I felt this was personal and decided not to react even though I felt that you were again baiting and going in to depth beyond the requirements of the thread.
3rd you now post with a very aggressive negative tone here. You are just plain rude. I'm guessing that you are threatened by the presence of someone who is totally non commercially focused on obtaining the very best from their equipment.
Any decent engineer would totally understand and endorse my principles even if they didn't agree with my technology choice yet you repeatedly have tried to bring in to question my credibility. If you are looking for my credentials, my teacher was a guy who's design was in the final 2 for the 1st hand held tv released in the 80's by Amstrad. I've not blown sunshine up my my own backside on any of the forums and although I may over simplify in my posts, I can assure you, I do know what i'm doing.
Why don't you start designing audio equipment and put them on the market so that the buying public and audio expert can judge your true knowledge of what you write? Do you know what Stanley, I already have several PCB layouts for DAC's. I've been working out what the costs would be for production on a small scale. FYI I’ve been working on layout for my favorite, the TDA1541A and its family, but most recently on a very high end DAC based on the AD1853 chip. I have to say, its more than likely to wipe the floor with any of the current Beresford range of DACs and its very unlikely to be significantly more expensive. If the statement is a challenge, then I accept (there you go, there's the bite!!)
I'm sorry but you pushed and pushed in every post since I have joined the forum and now I admit defeat. I have finally reacted. You are out of order. I don't care if this is just your style of communication. I myself am very opinionated and excitable when I find something that clearly works. I am however, not down right rude and obnoxious. For this there is no excuse. How on earth you are able to communicate in an appropriate enough manor to actually sell any of you’re equipment I have no idea.
Sorry to all but I’m afraid that enough is enough. I hope I am not banned for speaking my mind here as I feel I do have plenty to offer to anyone who wants to listen............
:unfair: actually tbh I'm quite upset
I hope I am not banned for speaking my mind here...
There's no chance of that Ian, although I am a little worried about your blood pressure.....
I would try to take things a little less seriously, matey - (said with the best intentions as someone who is as passionate about his beliefs as you) :)
Marco.
Sorry but I'm afraid I don't see it that way. After repeated reply's to my posts as opposed to the general thread direction, I do not see how it can be taken in any other way. If you can't make a subjective point without being rude, then you have no place in an open forum.
You may be right, I'm not implying you're imagining things. I simply gave my opinion about it (through my [limited] experience of Stan's posts) and I apologize if it sounded offensive. ;)
Filterlab
13-02-2010, 22:58
I myself am very opinionated and excitable when I find something that clearly works.
So are most audiophiles mate, and it's that passion which makes better and better components even better! Music is a passion after all, and high fidelity equally so.
I hope I am not banned for speaking my mind here as I feel I do have plenty to offer to anyone who wants to listen....... actually tbh I'm quite upset
You're not banned, and there's many folks who want to listen (including me as modding is a crackingly good side to hi-fi) so don't get upset mate. I used to get upset at various things on the forum, but these days I enjoy other people's opinions, other people's takes on things, other people's experiences and most of all my own system. Music, sound, hearing, interpretation - it all differs in every person, so just sit back, enjoy the tunes and teach where you can.
StanleyB
13-02-2010, 23:35
FYI I’ve been working on layout for my favorite, the TDA1541A and its family, but most recently on a very high end DAC based on the AD1853 chip. I have to say, its more than likely to wipe the floor with any of the current Beresford range of DACs and its very unlikely to be significantly more expensive. If the statement is a challenge, then I accept (there you go, there's the bite!!)
Bring it on. I have no problem with anyone bringing to market a DAC that outperforms mine, irrespective of if it is cheaper or more expensive. The quest for the Holy Grail of DACs has not yet ended, and I am sure there are many engineers out there who are working away at it as we speak. It is however infinitely better to bring to market one's own creation, than to tamper with the design of others through expensive mods. If I wanted to make an expensive DAC I would have done so. Instead I choose to come up with an affordable DAC with sufficient sonic abilities to make it a worthwhile investment for many. If you have your own solution that can satisfy the DAC market even more so, then I am sure that many would encourage you in bringing it to market.
Bring it on. I'm sure seeing as you market your own DAC that you already know its not as simple as just the technical build. I have no idea about marketing and the blowing sunshine up each others backsides that goes on in the what hifi world. For this reason, you would almost certainly be more sucessful than myself in the retail market.
You should read ECDesigns "Ultimate NOS Thread" over on the diyaudio forum then you would see how the likes of myself help to mature a design. EC shares ideas with forum members and uses the feedack in a constructive way. He will also enter into PM conversation to help you fine tune any idea's posted in the thread. He does sell some really nice kit on hi site.
BThe quest for the Holy Grail of DACs has not yet ended, and I am sure there are many engineers out there who are working away at it as we speak. It is however infinitely better to bring to market one's own creation, than to tamper with the design of others through expensive mods. Do you not have a thread on this forum dedicated to modding/ upgrading your own equipment thus encouraging others to do so. Are all the people contributing out of order for "tampering with the design of others" Did you pen the entire design yourself or did you "tamper" with the circuit design in the datasheet of the dac chips you use? You are a conceted hypocrite. I'm pretty certain you didn't design the gate layout on the chip itself and copyright the only way to attach the surrounding components.
I notice again, you refuse to comment on the fact that I belive you have been out of order in your tone directly and personally towards myself. I'm really pissed that you are so arrogant. My idea's are not the be all and and all in hifi but then neither is your entry level dac (by that I'm not talking about the cheapo model I'm talking about the Caimen). The fact of the matter is that you are in direct competition with chineese eBay dacs of quite often less value and better audio quality. you are not on the pedastal you seem to have put yourself on. Why on earth would it be ok for some to make changes to your specs but not others just because they don't belong to your clique?
Seeing as you seem to have made it your mission do discredit me and my ideas without any substantiation, I ask you for your comments of this link to another forum??
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/about-pull-trigger-beresford-tc-7510-a-333695/index6.html
Is your reputation due to conversations with yourself or based on conversations with other real people????
Again I appologise to the other members but I said previously enough is enough!
Hi Ian,
You are a conceted hypocrite [etc, etc]...
You're entitled to your opinion, but you need to calm down and cut out the ad hominem - cheers!
Play the ball, not the man :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
14-02-2010, 00:28
Here we go again..............
Sorry Marco, but I'm really not happy. Time and time again, i have been attacked without justification. Even when it has been suggested by other members that it is out of order and an appology might just be in order, the line just goes dead. The all of a sudden a smart mouthed comment appears in reply to something I've posted. Why on earth would you pop up on thread, try to make me look like a fool the decide not to contribute further??
I do however accept your point and will refrain from the childish name calling I have stooped to in my anger. Again my appologies
technobear
14-02-2010, 00:38
My idea's are not the be all and and all in hifi but then neither is your entry level dac (by that I'm not talking about the cheapo model I'm talking about the Caimen). The fact of the matter is that you are in direct competition with chineese eBay dacs of quite often less value and better audio quality.
Let me see now :scratch:
Number of used cheapo chinese DACs on classifieds and ePay - dozens.
Number of used Beresford Caimans on classifieds and ePay - none.
Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much :rolleyes:
Rant rant conceted hypocrite rant rant arrogant rant rant pissed rant rant <imported argument from another forum> rant rant!
FFS give it a rest. Get over yourself. It's only a hifi :mental:
FFS give it a rest. Get over yourself. It's only a hifi :mental:
nice!
I do however accept your point and will refrain from the childish name calling I have stooped to in my anger. Again my appologies.
Ok let's get back on track, shall we? Please learn to control your anger. Both Stan and you despite your different views must attempt to co-exist harmoniously within our community, and I'm confident that will be the case.
However you've only just arrived here, Ian, so please wind it in a bit for the sake of the harmony I'm referring to and I'm sure that Stan will reciprocate - thanks! :)
Marco.
ha ha bear..
Number of Matsui CD players on ebay - zilch
Number of Wadia CD players on ebay - 7
:)
Ian, if you can make a DAC that sounds a step or 2 better than the Caiman and give it balanced outputs for under £400, I'll buy it.
Number of Matsui CD players on ebay - zilch
Number of Wadia CD players on ebay - 7
LMAO - fantastic post.
Simon
Seeing as you seem to have made it your mission do discredit me and my ideas without any substantiation, I ask you for your comments of this link to another forum??
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/about-pull-trigger-beresford-tc-7510-a-333695/index6.html
Is your reputation due to conversations with yourself or based on conversations with other real people????
!
I sent Stanley a very polite message and got no reply. Strange.
Steve Toy
14-02-2010, 02:16
Our views on Headfi have been made clear elsewhere.
Jim you are sailing close to your posting rights being removed.
Steve you don't have to warn me about removing my posting rights. There's no logic behind it is there. You can do what you like.
thanks, Jim
Steve Toy
14-02-2010, 04:49
The logic of it is you seem to have a particular agenda, an undeclared interest, possibly.
twelvebears
14-02-2010, 09:22
I sent Stanley a very polite message and got no reply. Strange.
Er... you're the strange one matey.
'Hi, I've joined a music and Hi-Fi forum but my system details are confidential'
And you wonder why Stan's declining to speak to you? :mental:
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 09:41
I notice again, you refuse to comment on the fact that I belive you have been out of order in your tone directly and personally towards myself. I'm really pissed that you are so arrogant.
Let's get this straight. You put on ebay an advert to sell modifications to my product, making all sorts of claims that clearly imply my use of cheap components and inferior products, and how your better ones will improve my product. And all that at a cost that exceeds that of the original price of my DAC. At the same token, at no time have you been in contact with me to see how I feel about it that I am doing all the hard work in getting my product to market. Others on AoS and me are devising various mods that are made available free of charge to the world wide community, whilst you sneak up on us, make use of those mods, and market them as your own, and at a hefty premium.
Now who is being arrogant and out of order?
twelvebears
14-02-2010, 09:46
Call me a cynic, but I believe a lot of retail equipment is down tuned for market placement. If it was as good as it could be, there would be no easy way to market the 'better' products.
I'm not sure I buy into the idea of products being 'tuned down', I think it's a simple case of economics. The actual production cost (labour and parts) of any retail product, will never be able to match value/cost ratio of a modified unit. Also, products often have to engineered to hit a specific target market (cost rather than performance) and that inevitably means compromise.
As if to prove that very point, look at the Rick Cullen modifications for the PS Audio Digital Link DAC. Rick was involved in the original design of the DL but to hit the price point they wanted in the states, they had to compromise in some areas. His various mods effectively allow owners to reverse those compromises if they wish, and with the full support of PS Audio. Cullen Circuits are a bit like AMG to Merc I suppose.
Yes of course this approach and the work done by Mark at Audiocom and Brent at SerCal will never produce the VFM that self mods will, but there are lots of people (me included) who just don't have the skills to do things themselves.
You have to remember guys you'll find majority of designers tend to be very protective over their creation . This is something I've always respected, nothing wrong in discussions as long as it doesn't get personal;)
I keep the heavy modding with the diy dacs mainly because its the purpose of diy.
With the Caiman I prefer to keep it more simple , I feel this keeps things much easier for the many owners on here to follow and doesn't take the dac design too far from the original.
Just my opinion;)
Covenant
14-02-2010, 10:11
Anyway, back to helping Stan with names. How about Tarchia:
Pronunciation: TAR-kee-a
- Translation: Brainy
- Order: Ornithischia
- Suborder: Thyreophora
- Infraorder: Ankylosauria
- Family: Ankylosauridae
- Height: 8 feet (2.4 meters)
- Weight: 5,700 pounds (2,586 kg)
- Length: 20 feet (6.1 meters)
- Period: Late Cretaceous
- Description: Herbivore, Quadrupedal
- Notes: Discovered in southern Mongolia, Tarchia is the largest and the geologically most recent of the Mongolian armored dinosaurs. These dinosaurs were distinguished by the large spikeson their sides and their clubbed tails. Tarchia had a high skull, spikes at the corner of its mouth and a particularly large tail club.Tarchia, meaning brain, was so named because its skull, which isabout the same size as Saichania, has a much larger braincase.
technobear
14-02-2010, 10:52
ha ha bear..
Number of Matsui CD players on ebay - zilch
Number of Wadia CD players on ebay - 7
:)
When was the last Matsui CD player made?
I suspect they are all dead by now. They tend to end up in skips rather than on ePay :lol:
My first system was a Matsui, but somehow I pulled through and developed an interest in hi-fi :)
twelvebears
14-02-2010, 11:14
Let's get this straight. You put on ebay an advert to sell modifications to my product, making all sorts of claims that clearly imply my use of cheap components and inferior products, and how your better ones will improve my product. And all that at a cost that exceeds that of the original price of my DAC. At the same token, at no time have you been in contact with me to see how I feel about it that I am doing all the hard work in getting my product to market. Others on AoS and me are devising various mods that are made available free of charge to the world wide community, whilst you sneak up on us, make use of those mods, and market them as your own, and at a hefty premium.
Now who is being arrogant and out of order?
Stan.
Unless I've completely missed something you're talking about two different people.
The guy on eBay selling Beresford mods is called Brent, is up in Yorkshire and makes a living from electronics through his business SerCal Electronics.
Ian on the other hand, lives about an hour from me in Oxford and works in IT, with audio mods being a hobby.
If this is not the case and Ian has had eBay ads then perhaps I'm the one who's mistaken.
I also didn't realise Ian was selling DAC mods on Ebay, this is interesting news!
twelvebears
14-02-2010, 11:28
I also didn't realise Ian was selling DAC mods on Ebay, this is interesting news!
As I say, I don't believe he is. All the Beresford mods are from SerCal Electronics up in Yorkshire. So unless Ian has cracked teleportation, in his spare time, Stan's got the wrong man.
Let's get this straight. You put on ebay an advert to sell modifications to my product, making all sorts of claims that clearly imply my use of cheap components and inferior products, and how your better ones will improve my product. And all that at a cost that exceeds that of the original price of my DAC. At the same token, at no time have you been in contact with me to see how I feel about it that I am doing all the hard work in getting my product to market. Others on AoS and me are devising various mods that are made available free of charge to the world wide community, whilst you sneak up on us, make use of those mods, and market them as your own, and at a hefty premium.
Now who is being arrogant and out of order?
Lets get this straight. I work in IT for a large multi-national company.
HOW MANT TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD ITS NOT ME THAT SELLS THE MODIFICATION PACKAGES.
You have singled me out and made every attempt to discredit me everytime I post. I stand for the principles that modders follow. I've really got nothing else to say to you Stanley. You very much do owe me an appology for the treatment you have dished out. I do now conceed (without promting) that my recent post would also desrve an appology.
I do not sell audio upgrades. I work in IT. I live in Oxford. I love pulling CDP's to bits changing components to see what that does for me.
Now can you get off my back so we can all live together like adults with our clear differences of opinion.
HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD ITS NOT ME THAT SELLS THE MODIFICATION PACKAGES.
I think Stanley owes you a BIG apology Ian.
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 12:19
We obviously have hear a very disturbed young man who initially gave the impression that he owned the business that does these mods. It turns out that he is just an employee in IT with long toes:lol:. When push come to shove, he is losing his head and resorts to childish temperamental outburst.
My advise to you young man is that if you are serious about releasing your own product, you better start getting accustomed to comments aimed at you. If you can't handle AoS, you won't handle the opinions of the various audio magazine reviewers, and other forums topics that are surely going to be less than flattering at times.
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 12:22
I think Stanley owes you a BIG apology Ian.
If you go through the threads that have been posted by this individual, you'll quickly come to the conclusion that he has been giving the impression that he does. Even Marco asked him on more than one occasion when a link to AoS would be put on his website. Now it turns out that all is not well somewhere along the lines:rolleyes:.
Stan, this is the third post from Ian, in response to Marco's asking of whether he wanted a trade account : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=96282&postcount=29 on this thread : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=96279#post96282
We obviously have hear a very disturbed young man who initially gave the impression that he owned the business that does these mods.
No Stanley, you are very wrong, Ian never gave any such impression.
I am independant however, I am a customer of Sercalhttp://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=96279&postcount=26
I am not trade, just an avid modder (same thread, post 29)
Def not sales! I work full time in IT (same thread, post 31)
resold by the likes of you at eye watering prices
sorry Stan but I don't believe Ian has any financial interest in these upgrades and he's not selling anything, so I hardly think phrases like 'by the likes of you' are fair.... (same thread, post 47)
As previously stated, I have no financial interest whatsoever
Stanley, I am totally not involved in you or your products, and I do not know or have ever conversed with Ian, nor do I have or have had any contact or association with any company that upgrades your products. As such, I have no interest in this at all, however, from what I have read the only person who is disturbed is you, I feel your attitude STINKS and you owe Ian AN APOLOGY
:steam:
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 12:45
I feel your attitude STINKS and you owe Ian AN APOLOGY :steam:
Thank you:). I could of course go through the records and post for you the links to show otherwise, but I have far more important things to do.
I certainly don't owe anyone an apology who is fleecing or attempting to fleece owners of my DAC with mods that are ripped off AoS. Even Tirna Electronics is charging a fair price for a difficult job. The mind boggles how much others would have been charging had Tirna not been so favourable with their upgrade fees.
Enough chaps.
Stanley I have never once in any post suggested that I was involved in audioupgrades.co.uk in any other capacity than as a customer. In fact I have stated my position as an avid modder and customer time and time again. If you can't fully read the posts, and understand what is being written, it's probably not a good idea to post aggressive replies.
You have made it you personal mission to make my life here so far hell and to that end I have bent over backwards to help a few of the other members in order to show that I am in fact just a regular guy with an almost unhealthy interest in electronics and hifi.
You now mock because this is not my full time work. I have a HNC qualification in electronic engineering and I worked in the service industry 1st as a Saturday job when I was 14. I spent a total of 5 years in college being educated in electronics. Maggie Thatchers recession put pay to any career in electronics for me and I adapted and landed a job in IT.
I like my job designing Network infrastructure, gateway security, WAN encryption and associated technologies. I have many IT qualifications. My latest project was to design and implement (as the technical lead) a £3,000,000 gateway connecting networks of varying classification.
I tell you this because I feel you would rather see me portrayed as something I am not. Yes I bit last night but tbh it's felt like you have been poking me constantly since I joined. I'm pretty certain many would have bitten long before now.
I make my public appology for the name calling here now.
I appologise Stanley.
To all the other members, I'm sorry to bring what has clearly turned into a war to a constructive thread.
I think this has been a very enlightening thread and it's probably swayed my choice of future purchases somewhat.
I can imagine it has with others also.
Ian, I've found your posts to be informative and your obvious enthusiasm comes over well.
Fits in well with our Ethos here imho and Kudos for the apology...even though you had done so before.
Covenant
14-02-2010, 13:19
Marco, as the person who started this thread may I request that it is now closed? Entrenched and bitter comments about matters which dont relate to the thread topic are not helpful and go against the very friendly spirit which is what AOS is all about.
Lets all forget about the negative comments and move on.
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 13:20
I think this has been a very enlightening thread and it's probably swayed my choice of future purchases somewhat.
I can imagine it has with others also.
I have discovered the same. It has been my best weekend for sales ever since I started my online sales, with many buyers mentioning two threads on AoS in the Digital Impression and one in the Drawing Board that have swayed them into their final choice of purchase. Few, if any other forums, have such a wide range of topics where members can participate with passion and emotion, without being harassed by Admin, or barred without beng given a right of reply.
It reminds me of an email of apology I received last year from the owner of a well known site that Marco, Eddie ( a former good buddy of Marco) and me were ejected from many moons ago. Now Marco, don't start giving clues to those dark days now;).
It just goes to show how popular AoS has become, and how well read it now is:cool:.
Don't want Ian and Stan to argue as they are both good guy's, really helpful and skilled and we all benefit from having them here.
Ian is helping me build a DIY SB power supply as a favour (he is off work with an injury and kindly offered)) and I think that says it all.
Regards
twelvebears
14-02-2010, 13:57
We obviously have hear a very disturbed young man who initially gave the impression that he owned the business that does these mods. It turns out that he is just an employee in IT with long toes:lol:. When push come to shove, he is losing his head and resorts to childish temperamental outburst.
My advise to you young man is that if you are serious about releasing your own product, you better start getting accustomed to comments aimed at you. If you can't handle AoS, you won't handle the opinions of the various audio magazine reviewers, and other forums topics that are surely going to be less than flattering at times.
Stan, I'm sorry but at no point has Ian EVER said he owns the company or has ever done mods for a living. In fact I believe you will find he made that point VERY clear early in his postings. If that's you're impression then you must have read something different to everyone else here.
You accused Ian of things he has neither said nor done and confused him with a completely different individual. I'm not Sherlock Holmes and even I worked that out, so I'm not sure how you haven't.
Just say sorry and stop trying to make Ian out to be some kind of villain here because I don't think he is for one moment. And I think you'll find he's quite happy to and an AOS link to his own site, either that or remove his own link here, because as he DOES NOT SELL ANYTHING, I'm sure he's really not that bothered.
I have discovered the same. It has been my best weekend for sales ever since I started my online sales, with many buyers mentioning two threads on AoS in the Digital Impression and one in the Drawing Board that have swayed them into their final choice of purchase. Few, if any other forums, have such a wide range of topics where members can participate with passion and emotion, without being harassed by Admin, or barred without beng given a right of reply..
Hah! I got banned for posting a link to a Monty Python video!
And I think you'll find he's quite happy to and an AOS link to his own site, either that or remove his own link here, because as he DOES NOT SELL ANYTHING, I'm sure he's really not that bothered.
just to confirm that the links were put in place yesterday morning before this all started! Immediately Marco reminded me, I contacted Rob via PM to sort it. better late than never eh???!!! :cool:
Spectral Morn
14-02-2010, 14:35
Hah! I got banned for posting a link to a Monty Python video!
No Joe..it was the intent behind the video, that got you a holiday. The video itself is very funny :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Hah! I got banned for posting a link to a Monty Python video!
I was there !!! :lolsign:
(another link, Joe ? :lol:)
I was there !!! :lolsign:
(another link, Joe ? :lol:)
Why not? Better than bickering about DACs, any day of the week:
37Apscp3hsM
No Joe..it was the intent behind the video, that got you a holiday.
The intent was merely to lighten the mood after a somewhat confrontational post. I thought deleting the post was unnecessary and a ban hugely OTT.
I certainly don't owe anyone an apology who is fleecing or attempting to fleece owners of my DAC with mods that are ripped off AoS.
Then you DO owe Ian an apology as it has continuously been pointed out that Ian is NOT selling any mods, You have refused to acknowledge your mistake, falsely called that person 'disturbed', whilst Ian, the innocent party in all this has apologised to you, even though he has absolutely nothing to apologise for.
Stan, your attitude here is disgusting. You are clearly in the wrong. There is no doubt that you owe Ian an apology, and if you don't apologise then I feel the Admins here need to step in and reprimand you.
what I can gleen from all of this arguing and the private messages I've received is that
this is a volatile forum where some opinions are unwelcome let alone considered. Moreover it is not an open and fair forum but one where inconvenient comments are censored. This is very unpleasant and I wont be sticking around for much longer. It's been a learning experience.
The Vinyl Adventure
14-02-2010, 17:22
what I can gleen from all of this arguing and the private messages I've received is that
this is a volatile forum where some opinions are unwelcome let alone considered. Moreover it is not an open and fair forum but one where inconvenient comments are censored. This is very unpleasant and I wont be sticking around for much longer. It's been a learning experience.
you are wrong, this is a misunderstanding between 2 people, it rarely happens on here
technobear
14-02-2010, 17:56
... falsely called that person 'disturbed'...
Excuse me?
Go back and read the posts by UV101 from yesterday evening again.
'Disturbed' hardly begins to describe his behaviour.
'Raving' would be a better word.
Stanley, much to his credit, has risen above this nonsense and ignored it and quite rightly too.
This is very unpleasant and I wont be sticking around for much longer.
Good. I've had you labelled as a troll from your first post here. I came to this forum partly to escape from trolls so good riddance.
what I can gleen from all of this arguing and the private messages I've received is that
this is a volatile forum where some opinions are unwelcome let alone considered. Moreover it is not an open and fair forum but one where inconvenient comments are censored. This is very unpleasant and I wont be sticking around for much longer. It's been a learning experience.
I'm quite new here myself and though I don't agree with all of it , I can definately see where you're coming from.
My view is that the place is a bit of a Beresford fan club really. Go through the threads in the digital section and I bet someone mentions their Caiman within the first 5 posts. :)
Good luck with your DAC search.
'raving' would in deed be a good word. I was 'fuming' at the fact the Stanley has repeadly made a point of making me look like an arse for 3 weeks.
I did in deed fall foul to the baiting and react in a way I regret. I'm not going to keep pointing out that this is result of 3 weeks poking.
I have appologiesed. Clearly Stanley will not do the same. I will not respond to any posts he makes in the future whatsoever (I ask that this is not taken this as an invitaion to test me). Even the last post here by Stanley can be read as taking the piss out of me, almost thanking me for the additional publicity.
TBH, I'm at a loss as to what to do next. This repeated abuse is NOT what I signed up for here.
Marco, can you do something here, I'd really like to see this put to bed.....
The Vinyl Adventure
14-02-2010, 18:13
i wouldnt say its a beresford fan club... the fact that there are a lot of beresford owners is down to the fact that aos comes up in the search engines a lot when people type in beresford.
they join to find out more about stans products obviously post more about beresford, they usually buy one.. post more about it which adds to the amount in the search engines... its self perpetuating.
it has also happend with the sl1210 and daves products
Guys,
I'm just in and am just having my dinner. Rest-assured though that I will deal with this situation later.
Marco.
Steve Toy
14-02-2010, 19:17
You have my blessing to show Jim the door. He ticks all the wrong boxes here, has a particular agenda and does not want to tell us about his system.
Jim I suggest you head back to Headfi. You've been here 5 minutes and done nothing but stir up trouble.
I cannot contradict sheer logic. ;)
I'm quite new here myself and though I don't agree with all of it , I can definately see where you're coming from.
My view is that the place is a bit of a Beresford fan club really. Go through the threads in the digital section and I bet someone mentions their Caiman within the first 5 posts. :)
Good luck with your DAC search.
Yes a lot of people here like Stan DACs seeing that he advises around mods I think that is quite logical But not all of us have Stan DACs Marco uses a Audiocom mod Sony Steve and myself use Tubehunter DACs although ours are very different
A lot of people also use 1210 Tannoy speakers and tube amps but then again there are others that choose different PATHS .
You have my blessing to show Jim the door. He ticks all the wrong boxes here, has a particular agenda and does not want to tell us about his system.
Jim I suggest you head back to Headfi. You've been here 5 minutes and done nothing but stir up trouble.
Ditto
Are you selling it Demitri ?
I hadn't really thought about a DAC upgrade until I read this thread and borrowed the Caiman.
Well, I will sell it when I decide to get the MK2 or the Extremo model.
Why do you think of a dac upgrade ? The Havana is not good enough ? :scratch: Which Havana model is it ?
Well, I will sell it when I decide to get the MK2 or the Extremo model.
Why do you think of a dac upgrade ? The Havana is not good enough ? :scratch: Which Havana model is it ?
I've done a few comparison tests in the past between CD players and DACs etc and they've all been same old same old. Though the only really expensive DAC I've heard was a DAC64 and that sounded the same as my Esound e5.
I've stepped up a few notches with my gear since then , got a big load of acoustic panels stuck to my wall and have worked out a decent place to put my speakers so I get spot on imaging and 3d sound.
When I did the comparison between the Havana and the Caiman the other day, I heard differences that I wasn't really expecting. I thought it was going to be a slight change in bass/treble but nothing to write home about , but I noticed details and layers where missing on the Caiman that I could hear on the Havana. This got me thinking that if I'm hearing extra on the Havana (which is still only a £500 DAC) , what am I missing out on with an even better DAC ?
Hence the curiousity to go higher up the DAC ladder.
and the Havana is this..
http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana.htm
Looks a really nice DAC Marc
Why not speak to Ian UV101 or Mark at Audiocom about modding it If you wish
I had Mark do me various work in the past and his knowledge around this type of work is pretty vast
Marc, you have to check whether the "extra layers" (as you say) don't simply come from the tube output stage. If it's the case, then a more expensive dac (but solid state) will probably not have these extra layers.
Also, the Havana may be less sensitive to the digital cable used (I don't mean the Caiman is particularly sensitive, either). Which digital cable do you use ? Do you have the special Caiman power supply or the standard one ?
Sorry for all these questions, I'm trying to figure out the exact details of your opinion. ;)
There's something I don't get with the Havana : what do they mean when they say "no digital filter" ? :scratch: They mean they have no filter at 22kHz ? :eek:
Looks a really nice DAC Marc
Why not speak to Ian UV101 or Mark at Audiocom about modding it If you wish
I had Mark do me various work in the past and his knowledge around this type of work is pretty vast
Getting it modded is an option , though I'd prefer it if it was modded by someone who had done one before and could confirm definate improvements.
Replacing the custom caps etc with different caps and hoping for the best is just not going to guarantee an improvement for my money.
Or maybe it will ?
what I can gleen from all of this arguing and the private messages I've received is that
this is a volatile forum where some opinions are unwelcome let alone considered. Moreover it is not an open and fair forum but one where inconvenient comments are censored. This is very unpleasant and I wont be sticking around for much longer.
That's complete nonsense, so allow me to put you out of your misery. You came here with all guns blazing to attack Stanley, showing no respect for anything other than satisfying the needs of your own agenda!
Despite attempts at giving you the benefit of the doubt, clearly you had no intention of adding anything positive to our community, and were simply here to stir things up and cause trouble.
Well you've failed to do even that, as the majority of the membership sussed what you were about very early on and treated you with the contempt you deserve ;)
Anyway given the nature of your last shit-stirring remark, it is obvious that your presence here serves no constructive purpose whatsoever, so it's time for you to take a permanent holiday.
Bye bye :wave:
Marco.
Marc, you have to check whether the "extra layers" (as you say) don't simply come from the tube output stage. If it's the case, then a more expensive dac (but solid state) will probably not have these extra layers.
That's possible. Though I wouldn't know how to remove the valve buffer from the circuit to try without.
Also, the Havana may be less sensitive to the digital cable used (I don't mean the Caiman is particularly sensitive, either). Which digital cable do you use ? Do you have the special Caiman power supply or the standard one ?
Sorry for all these questions, I'm trying to figure out the exact details of your opinion. ;)
Had 1 DAC plugged in with USB and the other with SPDIF, then just swapped over the output drivers in Foobar (My motherboard has SPDIF phono output on it).
I did the test both ways , with each DAC going on USB and then SPDIF.
I also used the same IC cable on each DAC.
edit. I do wish to add that the differences are not night and day huge obvious things. If I didn't switch them over quickly I probably wouldn't have noticed anything. This difference was source music specific and on quite a few CDs the result was the same (bar the slight extra brightness/forwardness of the Caiman)
I did also test it as a preamp , running straight into my power amp , and since I'm probably going to sell my preamp soon I'll not go into that too much :)
There's something I don't get with the Havana : what do they mean when they say "no digital filter" ? :scratch: They mean they have no filter at 22kHz ? :eek:
AFAIK, It has an analogue filter, it's pretty much the same idea as (if not tweaked/allegedly improved direct copy of) the Audio Note DAC.
Getting it modded is an option , though I'd prefer it if it was modded by someone who had done one before and could confirm definate improvements.
Replacing the custom caps etc with different caps and hoping for the best is just not going to guarantee an improvement for my money.
Or maybe it will ?
Mark may not of worked with your DAC but he has brought out the best in many other makes Its worth having a serious think about this path
Looks a really nice DAC Marc
Why not speak to Ian UV101 or Mark at Audiocom about modding it If you wish
I had Mark do me various work in the past and his knowledge around this type of work is pretty vast
I'm happy to discuss the potential for modification on this as the principles are similar no matter what the kit is (possible oversimplification!!) . I am however, not in a position to carry out the work, I'll leave this to the pro's!!!
There's something I don't get with the Havana : what do they mean when they say "no digital filter" ? :scratch: They mean they have no filter at 22kHz ? :eek:
Havana is used as NOS so does not have a digital filter on digital lines before the dac chips
Some like it, others don't, you do get some high frequency roll off .
Just had a look at the Havana, will certainly have quite a certain signature judging by the types of parts used
Yeah , you can also customise the sound a bit more by swapping over the BB chips with AD chips, I can't remember the exact model number off the top of my head but they're a direct pin for pin replacement.
Not sure what the change would be to the sound but it's something I plan on fiddling with sooner or later.
BTW those Nichicon Muze caps have a very heavy signature especially the KZ series which look like the black/gold ones littered all over the pcb used for decoupling, also using Nicicon Fine Gold in the main supply
Yeah , you can also customise the sound a bit more by swapping over the BB chips with AD chips, I can't remember the exact model number off the top of my head but they're a direct pin for pin replacement.
Not sure what the change would be to the sound but it's something I plan on fiddling with sooner or later.
You sure your not thinking of the Paridisea which uses op-amps in the I/V stage? I don't think Havana uses any op-amps, probably passive I/V feeding the valve stage
Edit, just looked at the PCM56 datasheet which is used in the Havana, these dacs have internal I/V op-amps which can be bypassed so you have the option of using the dac as current out or voltage out, the interesting question is how is Havana's used, V-out or I-out
You sure your not thinking of the Paridisea which uses op-amps in the I/V stage? I don't think Havana uses any op-amps, probably passive I/V feeding the valve stage
No, the Burr Brown DAC chips can be swapped to Analogue Devices AD1896.
I don't suppose anyone has any spares they want to sell so I can try it ?
Hi Ian,
'raving' would in deed be a good word. I was 'fuming' at the fact the Stanley has repeadly made a point of making me look like an arse for 3 weeks.
I'm glad you appreciate that your behaviour was completely out of order - in fact, to be totally frank, your outbursts last night were more than a little disturbing and I was having doubts whether you were going to fit in here, which was extremely disappointing as, given the excellence of some of your posts on digital matters, I had high hopes for you as a contributor and valued member of our community.
*However*............
Marco, can you do something here, I'd really like to see this put to bed.....
Let's indeed put this to bed once and for all!
Having read through the thread in some detail, it is quite clear that Stan misconstrued the details of your profession and also your role in reference to Sercal Electronics and their digital component upgrades. Stan, I think you have to take this one on the chin, mate - we all get it wrong sometimes.
Given the nature of Stan's commercial status as an audio designer, one could understand why he reacted adversely to the DAC upgrading methodology you were advocating, however now that this misunderstanding has been cleared up, I'm confident that both of you can move on constructively from this and respect each other's right to contribute here as valued members of our community.
Therefore, I don't want to see any further 'handbags' on this matter from either of you, and instead this unfortunate episode being put to bed and both of you moving swiftly on to discussing more constructive and important topics on the world of audio. You both have lots to offer here, so it's time to bring the matter to a close and have a big :grouphug:
Now let's get back to talking about hi-fi and music!!
Marco.
No, the Burr Brown DAC chips can be swapped to Analogue Devices AD1896.
I don't suppose anyone has any spares they want to sell so I can try it ?
AD1896 is a Asynchronous sample rate converter not a dac chip
So this dac uses ASRC (upsampling) ?
edit. I do wish to add that the differences are not night and day huge obvious things. If I didn't switch them over quickly I probably wouldn't have noticed anything. This difference was source music specific and on quite a few CDs the result was the same (bar the slight extra brightness/forwardness of the Caiman)
No worries, I know that dac differences are minimal, anyway. ;)
Still, there are these two "specificities" of the Havana (the tube in the output stage and the NOS design) that you will have difficulties in finding in higher-priced products.
For instance, the Northstar Extremo (which is the top of the Northstar dacs) is a over-sampling dac, with asynchronous re-sampling (ASRC) and a discrete solid state output. Quite far from the Havana, thus. A pity we don't live nearer, a test would have been better than words. ;)
Perhaps you could borrow from a reseller near-by a more expensive dac, to see what it gives in your setup.
Is it the AD766 you are thinking of? The pinout is identical to the BB PCM56.
Also not sure if you've seen this http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/havana.htm
Nice close ups of the internals.
AD1896 is a Asynchronous sample rate converter not a dac chip
So this dac uses ASRC (upsampling) ?
not sure , this is from the positive feedback review
[edit] wrong chip number, sorry.
Not only that, but Mhdt designed the Havana so it would delight tweakers everywhere: Jiun-Hsien told me that “There is a secret that we only tell Havana users, that if they want to they can replace the stock PCM56P chips with AD1856 chips (which are pin to pin compatible), without changing any components in the Havana DAC. We assembled the Havana with IC sockets for the two PCM56P chips. We purposely installed these two IC sockets so that Havana users could experiment with further possibilities if they wished, like the AD1856 chip, or others.”
That's pretty impressive if you ask me. I didn't experiment with swapping out DAC chips - perhaps that can be a follow up article to this one.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/mhdt_havana.htm
I'm not that technical so it's all a bit mumbo jumbo to me.
So what could be done to this DAC to improve it ?
How difficult would balanced outputs be to put on it ?
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/mhdt_havana.htm
I'm not that technical so it's all a bit mumbo jumbo to me.
So what could be done to this DAC to improve it ?
How difficult would balanced outputs be to put on it ?
Thats definately what it says in the review! the datasheet on the AD1896 suggest otherwise! As Leo says it no dac chip!!
Looking at the datasheet for the PCM56 it would be entirely possible to utilise the I (current) output of each of the DAC's. This could be fed into an offboard dedicated I/V stage and configured to give you what you want. Such mods are not for the feint heated tho!!! The DAC itself will give a single ended output as opposed to balanced.
EDIT just noticed Leo said the same thing!!!!
It swaps with an AD1856 , not AD1896. I got a bit confuzled.
It swaps with an AD1856 , not AD1896. I got a bit confuzled.
Indeed that is another direct pin for pin swap out.
Additional mods look like they would be the normal PSU type mods including regs, better smoothing caps and better local decopling caps (a bit of personal choice here on which ones to use). Leo has already commented on the choice of Nichicon caps in the starting config.
Given the valve buffer stage, there are plenty of better DC blocking cap choices around. I like Mundorf supreme but that just my personal preference (I use these in my xovers).
The valve itself. Again there are plenty of choices. Cryo treatment works well on valves (IMHO).
It does look like you'd start with a nice unit and have the option of a few plug and play type potential upgrades (valves and DAC chips) beforeyou even consider getting a soldering iron anywhere near it, which to be honest can't be a bad thing.;)
The plug in type changes like dac and valves is easy , AD1856 is discontinued I think but there should be a few places have them in stock http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/16-Bit-PCM-Audio-DAC-IC-AD1856-AD1856R-K-NEW_W0QQitemZ260512852302QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item3ca7c6a94e
Regarding upgrading the circuitry theres a load of stuff that can be tried depending on how confident you are, the other option is paying a professional company like Audiocom to look at it and give you a few options
EDIT, Forget the chips in the ebay link, I just noticed they are the smd package, converter boards may be available
I can follow instructions and I can solder.
I swapped out a few dead transistors from a TR909 drum machine, a few dodgy knobs/sliders off synths and made my own flashing LED light about 20 years ago at school.
I think it's best left to experts. :)
Rowemeister
15-02-2010, 11:41
Hi
I would like to thank and also apologise to Ian (UV101) for all the abuse he has suffered. I am the owner of audioupgrades and I can confirm that Ian is in no way affiliated with my company. I have spoken to him in the past when he has purchased some parts off me for upgrading his system and that's as far as it goes.
Cheers
Welcome Brent
Hopefuly the matter has now been settled
one would hope there has been some undisclosed (and rightly so) PMs sent.
Anyways..
Good to be talking about the Hifi again. :)
The Vinyl Adventure
15-02-2010, 16:18
:grouphug:
i like that little smiley, although i always feel that the little guy at the front looks like something not so great is happening to him from behind....
Re the thread title; you could say a good car costs a minimum of £50k.
alfie2902
15-02-2010, 19:06
The Modwright modified Logitech Transporter is supposed to be very good indeed.I've not heard one myself,but been told by a friend that it was the best digital source he'd ever heard regardless of price.
There will be a Modwright transporter on show at Scalford Ali, If it comes off it will go up head to head against a Linn Akurate DS in the same system. Should prove an interesting comparison IMO.
Ali Tait
15-02-2010, 19:43
Yep,be interesting to hear the outcome.Who owns the Transporter?
There will be a Modwright transporter on show at Scalford Ali, If it comes off it will go up head to head against a Linn Akurate DS in the same system. Should prove an interesting comparison IMO.
Oooo...Now that I have to hear.:cool:
The Vinyl Adventure
15-02-2010, 20:04
Yeah, I'd find that very interesting too...
Anyone taking a Caiman...or even better - a Modded Caiman...?
Would be good to hear how Stans best stacks up against the big boys...
Ali Tait
15-02-2010, 20:11
Yep that too.I haven't heard a Caiman yet.
The Vinyl Adventure
15-02-2010, 20:57
if someone is taking an akurate, maybe i should bring my majik, the akurate lacks the benefit of any digital output. i am lead to belive the majik with the right dac is quite capable of outperforming tha akurate ... id be quite keen to see if that is true, especially considering my own recent finding with the caiman and copper dac in combo with the majik both outperforming the majik by its self...
if someone is taking an akurate, maybe i should bring my majik, the akurate lacks the benefit of any digital output. i am lead to belive the majik with the right dac is quite capable of outperforming tha akurate ... id be quite keen to see if that is true, especially considering my own recent finding with the caiman and copper dac in combo with the majik both outperforming the majik by its self...
I would be one happy bunny if you did Hamish. Would love to hear that comparison.
Guys,
We're well up for some kit comparisons in the AOS room, so feel free to bring whatever you want and you can hear it in our demo system :cool:
We'd like a really good turnout from AOS, so the more of you coming to Scalford Hall the better! :)
Marco.
daveyboy
20-02-2010, 21:36
Some names for a new Beresford off the top of my head
Beresford Supreme
Ultimate
Nirvana
Pure
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