View Full Version : A good dac costs a minimum of £3000
This is interesting topik. I dont understand why there are cheap dacs from china and then there are expensive one like DCS. What is inside a expensive dac? there is no $1000 dac chip or special circuit i think it is all marketing.
You need to understand that it's not only parts cost that determines the price of a product. Companies have overheads, they have to pay for marketing, there's R&D (those that do R&D lol), the dealer margin (which is about 40-50% of the RRP typically) and then there's profit on top of that. I often find it odd that people think they should only pay how much it costs for a manufacturer to buy the unit's electronic components. Lastly, in expensive gear the chassis used is very expensive and production runs are small so economies of scale don't do them any favours. There's also the question of prestige - most people don't understand how hi-fis work so they won't understand why they cost so much and are happy to pay if it does the job, whatever that job might be. Remember, for the lucky ones who can afford it, these are luxury items like gold plated taps and the big expensive car.
Simon
daveyboy
21-02-2010, 01:58
Ah stealing that word lol if you don't like my previous suggestions
Beresford Prestige
Beresford Classic
technobear
21-02-2010, 08:31
Many of the chinese DACs come direct from the manufacturer so there is no distributor markup and no retailer markup. There is also no local support if the DAC malfunctions. It has to be sent back to China.
Chinese labour costs are much much lower than european labout costs.
The really expensive DACs tend to have better component quality but they also have hidden costs in terms of the research and development that was necessary to squeeze out that extra performance.
There are however also some pretenders that are not worth the money. Look at the antics of companies like Lexicon and Goldmund for example who bought in cheaper modules or even whole units and put them in a posher box for ten times the price.
Then you have companies like Weiss who make the same DAC, and it is a good one, but put it in two slightly different boxes - one for the pro-audio guys and another for the hifi market. The latter is twice the price but they are the same DAC.
With DCS you're paying for top-drawer build quality and a lot of R&D.
Caveat emptor.
speaking of Chinese DACs.. The innards of my new toy (Xindak DAC-8) for your pleasure.. sound quite nifty too.
24 bit/192khz upsampling , tube output, XLR outs , built in remote preamp, solid thick aluminium front panel.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1331/009wo.jpg
Audio Emotion are knocking ex-demos out for £395, when mine turned up it looked like it hadn't even been opened!
Looks pretty good that one!
daveyboy
21-02-2010, 17:16
Another suggestion Beresford Legacy
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 08:58
Another area where money is spent on more expensive equipment is in the power supply. Cheap dacs use wall wart psus where an expensive dac will have a large transformer or two and proper power rail layout. The dac above looks to have a decent psu and from experience the psu is the most important area to get good sound.
Brent
StanleyB
22-02-2010, 09:47
Another area where money is spent on more expensive equipment is in the power supply. Cheap dacs use wall wart psus where an expensive dac will have a large transformer or two and proper power rail layout.
There is no basis upon which such a statement can be seriously be considered to be true. A lot of cheap DACs have a transformer in them, and quite a few expensive DACs have their transformer externally mounted. The reason for this is that any noise from the power supply is kept well away from any other circuitry. Many high end equipment have their PSU externally.
Some equipment even have two power supplies: one externally and one internally. My own products belong to the latter generation.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 10:32
Stan I was generalizing the main differences I find between cheaper and more expensive equipment, of course this can change from product to product. A decent transformer externally is not the same as a cheap switch mode (wall wart) psu. I do consider a good external psu to be better than a cheap internal one.
Brent
Me too - wall warts are just plain shit (on anything)! The PSU is also, in my experience, the single most important component in any hi-fi equipment.
Other things are important too of course, in their own context, but you can 'window-dress' a circuit until the cow's come home, and if the PSU isn't up to the requisite standard, then you can say ta-ta to any notion of genuinely superb (by my standards) sound quality! :)
Marco.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 10:48
Yes I agree with your notion
Most of the work we do is to address poor components in the psu and add better transformers etc where necessary.
Brent
StanleyB
22-02-2010, 10:52
Both the highly rated V-DAC and DacMagic use wallwarts, and so far no complaints have been posted on the forums to say that they are having power supply problems.
The fact that a power supply has the mains contact manufactured onto the case instead of attached to mains lead is not a reason to suggest that it is any way inferior in design. That's pure hysteria on the part of non-designers.
There is also no such thing as a better transformer. Not a single transformer manufacturer lists such an item in their product range.
You're doing the right thing then, Brent, as what one is essentially listening to through a hi-fi system is modulated mains.
Marco.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 10:59
Both the highly rated V-DAC and DacMagic use wallwarts, and so far no complaints have been posted on the forums to say that they are having power supply problems.
The fact that a power supply has the mains contact manufactured onto the case instead of attached to mains lead is not a reason to suggest that it is any way inferior in design. That's pure hysteria on the part of non-designers.
There is also no such thing as a better transformer. Not a single transformer manufacturer lists such an item in their product range.
The DacMagic has serious problems with its wallwart, it runs too hot and falls apart over time, go over to any DacMagic thread and you will see people swapping the cheap psu to a better one from Maplin, the sound improves considerably. Is that not why you use a slightly better wallwart with the Caimen than with the 7520?
Are you saying you design your dacs Stan?
Brent
Hi Stan,
Wall-warts are fine, on products built to a price, but it's only when you hear the sonic benefits of hugely over-specified fully-regulated PSU(s) that you realise just how inferior wall-warts are!
I'm afraid that I hate cheap switch-mode PSUs with a passion because they chuck so much noise into the mains supply, thereby 'infecting' every other component sharing the same electrical circuit - nasty things, IMO. However, when equipment is built to a certain price, it's not commercially viable to factor expensive PSUs into the design ;)
Marco.
What Stan says, sums up my feelings too.
A "better power supply" (whatever that may mean) is extremely hard to appreciate in general situations. I don't doubt that certain setups may experience certain benefits in specific situations, but saying that by putting a "better" supply will give an overall "better" result is plain false, imho. And declaring that external is "by design better" has no technical or subjective general basis whatsoever.
I know good setups with internal supplies (plenty) and mediocre with external. ;)
Who can give me an example of a well-known very good preamp with external power supply ? :scratch:
Sorry, Dimitri, I couldn't disagree more on that, as it's completely contrary to my considerable experience in these matters...
My Sony DAS-R1 DAC weighs 20kg, most of which is as a result of the huge, multiple, fully-regulated PSUs which make a HUGE difference to the sound.
Have a look at Duncan (tubehunter's) D.I.Y DACs and examine the size of the PSUs used in his designs.... I can assure you that he's not doing it for the good of his health! ;)
Best just to agree to disagree here I think :)
Marco.
Who can give me an example of a well-known very good preamp with external power supply ? :scratch:
Tom Evans Vibe?
Who can give me an example of a well-known very good preamp with external power supply ?
Any Naim preamp with a Hicap or Supercap! ;)
Also, my Croft uses a huge external PSU, with MASSIVE sonic benefits as a result (I've done the comparison), as does my friend's World Designs preamp.
I could go on.... I'm afraid you're wrong on this one, mon ami :)
Marco.
We need to define the demark point. Putting a better supply onto a device will definately improve the audio quality however, it could be fair to say that just changing the wall wart my not deliver massive gains due to restictions further up the chain.
If you take it to the extreme and provide a much uprated replacement PSU (which could also be mounted internally if you have the space *see the number of additional pus's inside my CD960) along with better internal regulation and local decoupling there are massive gains to be had with almost any commercial equipment no matter how expensive. This general rule is accepted throughout the audio community.
Check out any of the Squeezebox threads, some people say the better external PSU makes a difference some say it makes little difference. There are other factors in the equation for sure. One thing is for certain, better PSU's (Transformer, Caps, regulation etc) right up the device can enhance the audio quality beyond reconition. IMHO :cool:
EDIT* Internal or external is not really the issue here, its just the fact that better PSU's= Better audio quality
StanleyB
22-02-2010, 11:13
Don't Naim and Linn also make a couple, to name but a few?
Having a massive transformer within the case is a major source of problems for digital circuits. The ripple current alone is large. Such ideas are good for analogue equipment, but digital ones are more discerning.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 11:13
I don't believe external is better than internal either unless absolutely necessary , my own cd player has many internal transformers. Keeping signal and power rail lengths short also helps.
Naim add large VA transformers (headroom is good) then strangle alot of the benefits with a poor LM317 based regulator circuit.
Brent
Tom Evans Vibe?
Exactly, Joe. Any truly serious high-end designs embrace the significant sonic benefits of employing an over-specified fully-regulated PSU, which usually comes in a separate box.
If you disagree with the efficacy of this, then quite simply you haven't heard the sonic benefits! ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
22-02-2010, 11:15
Hmmm. I better find myself a different topic to take part in.
Also, my Croft uses a huge external PSU, with MASSIVE sonic benefits as a result (I've done the comparison), as does my friend's World Designs preamp.
Ask Glenn why he doesn't use an external PSU on his new models, then. ;)
C'mon guys, most world-class preamps have an internal PSU and nobody complains about a supposed "design flaw". There's no point in trying to pretend otherwise.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 11:24
I think whether the psu is internal or external is not the issue. It is the quality of it. External os often used as a marketing tool and to sell more products. Of course an over sized add on psu would not fit inside the standard equipments box and this does need to be external.
I would always fit the psus internally first and foremost.
Stan do you design your dacs?
Brent
Hi Brent,
I don't believe external is better than internal either unless absolutely necessary , my own cd player has many internal transformers. Keeping signal and power rail lengths short also helps.
I agree - external isn't automatically better, but it *can* be better in the right circumstances. You're right - of far more importance is the intrinsic quality of the PSU in question.
However, in my experience, with regards to internal or external location of PSUs, it's simply a matter of choosing your compromises between longer signal and power rail lengths (thus raising circuit impedance slightly), and shorter ones (thus necessitating the inclusion of huge transformers, which generate a harmful magnetic field, sharing the same space as 'delicate' control circuitry, or "ripple effect", as Stan says) and the adverse effect this has on music reproduced.
Personally, I'm a great believer in the benefits of high quality off-board PSUs, because when it's done right I consider it the best way to go :)
Marco.
Ask Glenn why he doesn't use an external PSU on his new models, then.
Because there’s insufficient margin to include this in the cost, so he offers a two-box option as an upgrade if you want a bespoke design... Fact: Glenn himself advocates the benefits of high quality external PSUs.
Even the most expensive preamp in his new range only costs £1500, which is still not enough to factor in the cost of an off-board PSU, whilst retaining all existing high quality internal components. My Charisma-X would cost more like £3k to build from scratch - then you're taking about being able to have the best of both worlds! :)
Trust me, Dimitri, I know what I'm talking about here from both speaking to Glenn about this on the phone, in person, and based on extensive experience of using his designs over many years ;)
Marco.
Thus, Glenn thinks that internal PSU is a better compromise than other internal compromises for the overall result, that is what I mean.
If he thought that he could be better with an external PSU and compromise somewhere else, he would have done it. ;)
So... the external PSU is the least important. ;)
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 12:26
It definitely keeps a large portion of the cost down by not starting with the bigger psu.
Brent
Who can give me an example of a well-known very good preamp with external power supply ?
Mine has a second box entirely dedicated to the power supply.
Thus, Glenn thinks that internal PSU is a better compromise than other internal compromises for the overall result, that is what I mean.
If he thought that he could be better with an external PSU and compromise somewhere else, he would have done it. ;)
So... the external PSU is the least important. ;)
Yes, but I want the best of both worlds, and for that you need the huge high quality off-board PSU, too! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Mine has a second box entirely dedicated to the power supply.
Thank you Martin.
My phrase was more to say that an external power supply is not the most important thing, far from that. Even Pass Labs has the XP-10 with an internal PSU, does this mean the XP-10 is not a world class pre ? I doubt.
Discussing external vs internal PSUs is like discussing dual mono designs in different boxes vs the same design in the same box. Not a big deal, really. ;)
Yes, but I want the best of both worlds, and for that you need the huge high quality off-board PSU, too! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Well, get two mono preamps (each for a single channel) with two external supplies, then !!! :lol:
Dimitri,
It boils down to this: a better PSU is a better PSU, whether it's situated internally or externally. However a high quality, over-specified, fully regulated PSU, mounted either internally or externally, will piss all over ANY wall-wart!! ;)
Also, the quality of PSUs (and how well they're implented) is of paramount importance in ANY audio application.
Marco.
Marco, I can only agree on the absolute importance of well-made PSUs.
I'm simply saying that, on economy components (dacs etc), a wall-wart might as well do its job well enough. And often, on such packages, the design flaws (that are inevitably present as compromises) are *much* more important than the wall-wart itself.
I guess that's what Stan wanted to say before he pulled back.
Well, get two mono preamps (each for a single channel) with two external supplies, then !!! :lol:
If Glenn will make it, I'll buy it!!!! :lolsign:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
22-02-2010, 13:29
Well, get two mono preamps (each for a single channel) with two external supplies, then !!! :lol:
Titter ye not - this is what such a beast looks like!
http://www.marklev.com/ML6B/img/6A.jpg
ML 6A - just maybe the best preamp ..........ever
I think a ML-7A would be enough for me !!! ;)
I'm simply saying that, on economy components (dacs etc), a wall-wart might as well do its job well enough. And often, on such packages, the design flaws (that are inevitably present as compromises) are *much* more important than the wall-wart itself.
I guess that's what Stan wanted to say before he pulled back.
I completely agree and have no problem with that whatsoever :)
It just depends where you're at with hi-fi. Without being disrespectful to anyone here, I left "economy components" behind some time ago. These days, I always go the extra mile to get what I consider is the best I can afford. That's not me 'willy-waving'; merely a statement of fact :cool:
Marco.
Well, of course, from a perfectionist point of view there's a lot to say, I agree.
Simply when someone considers the sonic performances of a (so much perfectible) design like a Squeezebox or a V-Dac, it's a bit "exaggerated" to point out the PSU (wall-wart or not) as the next important performance bottleneck... you see what I mean ?
Needless to say, that perfectionism is the dream of us all, why hide it ? And your own system conception was not something to discuss, for me. :cool:
Yep, Dimitri, I concur with that. The only thing I'd say is that the best DAC designs I've heard (or best preamps - or anything) start with serious attention to power supply arrangements, and then take things from there - these form the basis from which all else is built...
Look at Duncan's latest design, for example:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5518
Now *THAT* is what you call a DAC!!
I heard this yesterday and can tell you quite categorically that it would piss all over most commercially available DACs on the market at almost any price, and just look at the attention to detail in terms of PSU arrangements - and he sells his DACs for between £300 - 500!!!! :mental: :)
It's not that much more than a Caiman, and with no disrespect to Stan who makes extremely good designs for the money, there is just no comparison.
Ultimately, the PSU is the 'foundation' from which all else is realised in audio design. However, Stan's DACs eke out an amazing level of sonic performance, considering that they are far from 'maxed-out' in terms of attention to PSUs.
Basically, they're one of the most cleverly 'race-tuned' products on the market - he knows exactly what he's doing :cool:
Marco.
Having the transformer external is fine it has few secondarys where as if your circuits require many secondarys things can get messy if the transformer is external, as always you use whatever suits the application best
When modifiying the Sabre based dac I noticed going from one single transformer supplying both L&R output stage to driving them dual mono brought noticeable gains (even with the shunt regulation)
One of the other dacs I have (AYAII) uses separate supplies, its transformer has many secondarys, its also shielded and grounded to the case
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 15:50
It's not that much more than a Caiman, and with no disrespect to Stan who makes extremely good designs for the money
Marco.
Nice dac and good circuit layout. I can tell from just looking it will be dynamic and musical.
I'm going to ask Stan again for the third time if he designs the dacs himself?
Brent
Hi Leo,
When modifiying the Sabre based dac I noticed going from one single transformer supplying both L&R output stage to driving them dual mono brought noticeable gains (even with the shunt regulation)
I believe that Dunc's latest DAC (shown in the above link) features dual-mono PSUs, and yes I agree, it brings very noticeable and significant gains in audio performance.
However on a more general note, I agree that we shouldn't fall into the trap of absolutes.
All I'm saying is that in my experience properly implemented high quality (normally huge) over-specified PSUs, mounted internally or externally, in virtually any main audio application, usually pays significant sonic dividends - arguably more so than anything else. Their effect on reproduced music, IME, is at a fundamental and important level.
The bottom line I'm afraid is that one can only get so far in audio by doing things on the cheap, as obtaining that last few percent of 'musical magic' is what more often than not costs the big bucks... That, my friends, is today's 'factoid' ;)
Marco.
Yes, the bloody PSU's and discrete regulation cost more than both dac and case:lol: I must admit the effort is well worth it though for sure and usually something the diyers just do anyway, we don't have a set production price to work to
Seems lots of new kit today comes with a plug in SMPS, something to do with Green regulations or something? :scratch:
Stratmangler
22-02-2010, 16:32
Seems lots of new kit today comes with a plug in SMPS, something to do with Green regulations or something? :scratch:
You've hit it on the head Leo.
Manufacturers cannot sell product in California (for example) unless the PSU is SMPS.
This is down to ignorance of things technical by legislators.
Chris:)
Yes, the bloody PSU's and discrete regulation cost more than both dac and case...
Indeed! Hence why the likes of Stan can't go down that road when he's churning out his DACs for £250! It's not that he doesn't think there aren't any significant gains to be had by adopting that approach - far from it - but it means that the Caiman will only ever be *so* good until he maxes out the PSU side ;)
This is why I've often said that he should build a 'high-end Caiman' in a bigger case with top-notch fully-regulated PSUs, and sell it for around a grand, which knowing Stan, would probably outperform most other DACs on the market up to £3k, and perhaps beyond.
Clearly, he has the talent to do it, so I'd like to see him spread his wings a bit more! :)
Marco.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 16:42
Or buy the 7520 and swap the Burr Brown dac chip to the wolfson dac chip.
The 7510, 7520 & Caimen would benefit hugely with the psu mods you are talking about. The 7510 I built a off board psu for was very nice sounding indeed.
Brent
Don't be too quick to diss SMPS as a technology. Wall-warts are one thing, but the implementation in Chord power amps is quite another.
mmm Green, seems very odd that!!!!
Does this mean that an internal psu must also be of the switched mode variety? :mental:
This suggests to me that a company could really be selling a product that could be conceived as not fit for purpose! Purspose being High Quality D to A conversion. Performance ruined by a totally unsubstantial noisey power supply. Whats so "ungreen" about a std low voltage psu using RoHS compliant components? Incidently can anyone else hear some smps's squeeling???
Stratmangler
22-02-2010, 16:50
mmm Green, seems very odd that!!!!
Does this mean that an internal psu must also be of the switched mode variety? :mental:
This suggests to me that a company could really be selling a product that could be conceived as not fit for purpose! Purspose being High Quality D to A conversion. Performance ruined by a totally unsubstantial noisey power supply. Whats so "ungreen" about a std low voltage psu using RoHS compliant components? Incidently can anyone else hear some smps's squeeling???
I agree with what you've just said, unfortunately
This is down to ignorance of things technical by legislators.
Elected representatives screw things up royally for much of the time
Chris:)
I've heard many wall-wart type supplies squealing - usually chargers like my missus' Wii Remote charger. It drives me nuts!
I do think this point about not all SMPS being equal is very important. If they're designed for performance, not low-cost they might be contenders for top flight sound quality. I believe tweaker and marketing man extraordinaire Russ Andrews tested various off-the-shelf power supplies and determined the best-sounding was, in fact, a switcher.
Simon
Don't be too quick to diss SMPS as a technology. Wall-warts are one thing, but the implementation in Chord power amps is quite another.
A SMPS is a cheaper and more convenient way of having a PSU capable of supplying a heavy load, using a linear with the same current capability as the SMPS in your Chord would be the size of a fridge:lol:
Also depends on the SMPS switching frequency, some are far better than others although some folks still class them as evil no matter how well specced it is:)
I've heard many wall-wart type supplies squealing - usually chargers like my missus' Wii Remote charger. It drives me nuts!
I do think this point about not all SMPS being equal is very important. If they're designed for performance, not low-cost they might be contenders for top flight sound quality. I believe tweaker and marketing man extraordinaire Russ Andrews tested various off-the-shelf power supplies and determined the best-sounding was, in fact, a switcher.
Simon
Yes, theres a lot of real cheap poorly made crap out there, the internal switchers inside my router started making a high pitched chirping noise which would drive me nuts, one of the output caps on the supplies had bulged, the output inductor was ringing like buggery! I just recapped it and cleaned the thing up, worked perfect since
The weedy ones runs squeal, the missus phone charger does the same when the battery is fully charged
Hi Brent,
Or buy the 7520 and swap the Burr Brown dac chip to the wolfson dac chip.
I suspect that Stan will have his valid reasons for using the Burr Brown, so I can't comment on that, save to say that I heard one of Duncan's DACs yesterday (not the one shown in the earlier link) which featured a Wolfson (the same chip I believe that is used in the Naim CDS555), and it was quite categorically one of the best DACs I've ever heard.
It had many of the traits I love about my heavily-modified TDA1541-based Sony! :)
The 7510, 7520 & Caimen would benefit hugely with the psu mods you are talking about. The 7510 I built a off board psu for was very nice sounding indeed.
I've no doubt about that. The Caiman would most certainly 'soar like an eagle' with really serious PSUs fitted... This is why I'd SO love to see it happen because then Beresford owners would *really* have something special to celebrate!! :eek:
Basically, I'd like to see Stan dabble outwith of the budget market for once and show people what he can really do!
Marco.
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 17:36
The Burr Brown is fitted in the 7520 and the wolfson is fitted in the Caiman that + the lm4562 opamps is the only difference between the 2 models internally. Then there is a slightly better smps psu externally.
If anyone thinks about swapping the 7520 for the Caiman just do a dac chip swap (if you can solder). Swapping the opamps is easy as they are on sockets
Brent
I suspect that Stan will have his valid reasons for using the Burr Brown, so I can't comment on that, save to say that I heard one of Duncan's DACs yesterday (not the one shown in the earlier link) which featured a Wolfson (the same chip I believe that is used in the Naim CDS555), and it was quite categorically one of the best DACs I've ever heard.
The Caiman uses the Wolfson DAC. With some power supply improvements, it really is a giant killer. I don't even use it as my main source (it does Sky HD and Blu-ray duty), but it sounds absolutely superb.
The Caiman uses the Wolfson DAC. With some power supply improvements, it really is a giant killer. I don't even use it as my main source (it does Sky HD and Blu-ray duty), but it sounds absolutely superb.
What giant DACs are these you speak of ?
Covenant
22-02-2010, 18:42
The Burr Brown is fitted in the 7520 and the wolfson is fitted in the Caiman that + the lm4562 opamps is the only difference between the 2 models internally. Then there is a slightly better smps psu externally.
If anyone thinks about swapping the 7520 for the Caiman just do a dac chip swap (if you can solder). Swapping the opamps is easy as they are on sockets
Brent
Have a read of this thread Brent:rolleyes: :
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3058
Have a read of this thread Brent:rolleyes: :
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3058
Glad somebody reads it:lol:
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 19:02
Ah nice one, that thread shows a good few tweaks for the diyer. It is good to see threads like that.
Brent
Ah nice one, that thread shows a good few tweaks for the diyer. It is good to see threads like that.
Brent
Just the simple stuff:)
Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 19:18
It maybe straight forward but also very important.
Brent
daveyboy
23-02-2010, 22:28
I have talked with 2 people about this, one a science teacher, the other an electrical engineer and neither could explain to how changing a psu could result in a better sound. I love my dac don't get me wrong but I am :scratch: struggling to see how a bigger power supply impacts on the sound, in fact all it should do (according to them) is reduce the heat the psu runs at.
Hi Davey,
You need to speak to a professional (preferably high-end) audio designer or similarly knowledgeable D.I.Y-er to get the full story. A science teacher will likely know bugger all about it.
Or better still, listen to the effect of adding a better (and bigger) PSU to equipment with your own ears, and judge what you hear on that basis! :)
Marco.
lol. It would more likely increase heat output because it would be less efficient. Science teachers are often amazing people but, come on, they're not necessarily hi-fi experts! And I don't want to upset electrical engineers but they wire mains up in houses, not complex circuits.
You don't have to understand something 100% to accept the truth in it.
Simon
The Grand Wazoo
23-02-2010, 23:44
And I don't want to upset electrical engineers but they wire mains up in houses, not complex circuits.
Whoah, Steady there!
Electricians wire up people's houses.
Electrical Engineers do something rather different:
What Does an Electrical Engineer Do?
Electrical Engineers are primarily responsible for designing, developing and testing products and systems that are powered by electricity. They design communication systems, electronic gadgets, appliances, computer hardware, computer software, medical equipment and electrical substations. Most Electrical Engineers are graduates of undergraduate degree programs, with a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, and some have graduate degrees, like the Master of Science in Electrical Engineering.
Electrical Engineers' Work
Electrical engineering plays an essential role in nearly every aspect of our modern technological society. Electrical Engineers possess the technical knowledge and skills necessary for designing a vast array of electrical components and systems that are used in all types of consumer, scientific and industrial products, equipment and instruments.
From:
http://degreedirectory.org/articles/What_Does_an_Electrical_Engineer_Do.html
Can't disagree with that Chris, Its spot on! You did sort of T that up Simon!:lolsign:
Do you have a hard hat? If so you best put it on! I'm failry certain that holding a HNC in electronic engineering, I could also be described as (among other things!!) an electrical engineer!
Are you suggesting that I should just stick to simple things wiring like in a house??:lolsign: Is house wiring simple? The IEE Regs is a big book for something simple :ner:
1. You can *hear* that a change in PSU (try the Caiman, for instance) makes a difference.
2. You can conduct a thought experiment that easily demonstrates that an infinitely stiff power supply with infinitely low noise will create a clean modulated signal. Now translate that to degrees of 'less than perfect' and it's easy to understand why different power supplies affect the sound quality differently.
P.S. when I was an electronics engineer I used to be called all sorts of things, including a 'technician' and, worst of all, a 'mechanic'!
Dave Hewitt
24-02-2010, 00:15
Hi
In my experience plenty of electronics engineers could'nt wire a house.
Cheers Dave.
Dave Hewitt
24-02-2010, 00:27
Hi
Martin has summed the power supply perfectly when he says stiff,if the supply cant cope with demand on it ,it will be soggy and thus affect the performance of the equipment it is driving. A 250 cc motor cycle will probably do 100 mph but a 1000cc one will do it without stress and will be well within its limits.Hope this makes sense [any motorcyclist will know].
Dave.
Hi
Martin has summed the power supply perfectly when he says stiff,if the supply cant cope with demand on it ,it will be soggy and thus affect the performance of the equipment it is driving.
I guess it depends on the component driven (its variations in demand) and the environment used (RF rejection).
Some components (like dacs) don't have big variations in power demand. Power amps do. ;)
twelvebears
24-02-2010, 06:44
Hi
In my experience plenty of electronics engineers could'nt wire a house.
Cheers Dave.
By the same token, a friend of mine is a very successful software engineer/programmer (whatever the correct term) and the kind of borderline genius who teaches himself to programme in new languages by reading the book over a weekend.
That said, I wouldn't trust him to put a computer together.... ;)
Hi Dimitri,
I guess it depends on the component driven (its variations in demand) and the environment used (RF rejection).
Some components (like dacs) don't have big variations in power demand. Power amps do.
Yes, the sonic effect of upgrading the PSU(s) in a power amp would undoubtedly be very noticeable indeed, but then so is the same the case with a DAC - just in a different way!
It's also about reducing noise in the circuit (this is what properly implemented bigger and better PSUs do), as well as achieving greater 'headroom' in a power amp (such as Dave H referred to earlier with his motorbike analogy), which is fundamentally important in a source component such as a DAC.
I keep saying this: my vintage Sony DAS-R1 doesn't have massive multiple regulated PSUs, and weighs in at 20kg, for the good of its health, and similarly, nor do Duncan (tubehunter's) designs ;)
Some power amps aren't that heavy or have PSUs as big as inside!! Over-specifying critical components (PSUs, caps, etc) and implementing them correctly in a circuit, in my experience, ALWAYS pays huge sonic dividends.
In layman's terms, and my apologies go to those here with the technical knowledge to explain themselves better, I see circuit design essentially as this:
If you want the absolute best sound, having 'adequate' capability of anything in a circuit is not enough - it's about having MORE capability than you're ever likely to need that reaps the greatest sonic rewards, even if it is considered as 'over the top' or 'unnecessary' based on measurement data, because in reality when it comes to listening to the results, it is usually no such thing…
And it is specifically *that* mentality one needs to embrace and adopt when designing equipment if one has any notion of creating something truly exceptional....
Marco.
I'm sure that if you put your Sony's PSU to a CA dac you'll get near to nothing in terms of sonic improvement. ;)
Having more is always good, but when there's limited money to spend you have to be careful to spend the money where the improvement goes the most.
For instance, if you have a Samsung CD player it's not by inserting a £3000 over-specified PSU or by inserting a £5000 interconnect that you improve anything worth the money spent. :lol:
EDIT: What I'm trying to say, is that in the quest for "state of the art" there's a logical path to follow. PSU is certainly part of it, but on most components, it comes in the end. Look at the range of Glenn's preamplifiers : the over-specified PSU only comes in the last (most expensive) of the three models. It's not a coincidence. ;)
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 08:40
The question was what a better or upgraded psu did, not whether it was the best or first path to take!
With upgrading many cd players and dacs ranging from £100 to £5000 the main big area that is improved is the psu. Bigger transformers, larger uF capacitors, more regulated voltage rails (isolation is very important) etc etc.
Take Marantz KI range cd players and Amps over say the std or SE versions, 90% of that upgrade is a larger better quality transformer.
Also better quality capacitors have lower esr and higher ripple rejection which keeps the voltage rails cleaner. This then is not passed onto the dac chips and allows them to perform better. Digital circuits do demand current, especially clock circuits, the high speed of the clock and the gates being switched at those frequencies demands high (by comparison to the analogue stage at line level) u sec pulses. Most good cd players have a large capacitor for the digital circuits to combat this event.
Brent
The question was what a better or upgraded psu did, not whether it was the best or first path to take!
How can you disconnect reality from decisions ? :eek:
I don't get it. :o
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 08:59
I don't get it. :o
That could be why we keep having the same occuring conversations!
Have you had anything upgraded properly or tried your hand at upgrading yourself?
Brent
For instance, if you have a Samsung CD player it's not by inserting a £3000 over-specified PSU or by inserting a £5000 interconnect that you improve anything worth the money spent.
Of course, Dimitri, but now you're just being silly :eyebrows:
The bottom line is that when designing a circuit from the ground up, and thus implementing it correctly, paying serious attention to power supply arrangements reaps very significant sonic rewards.
This is an undisputable fact for anyone who has heard the results of carrying this out.
I think where our disagreement lies is in that I consider the best way to design any equipment, whilst keeping the costs down as far as possible, is to start from the foundation of implementing the highest quality PSU(s) possible, and thus succeed in getting the most from a chosen circuit by using very good but not necessarily the (absolute) best partnering components (those can be upgraded later), whereas you appear to favour the approach of employing an 'adequately good' PSU and 'maxing-out' the partnering components around it in order to squeeze the most performance from a chosen circuit that way...
Essentially though, it does come down to cost.
The problem for me with the latter approach is that the circuit is essentially hobbled from the beginning by not maxing-out the PSU(s), as those are at the 'heart' of any circuit, so in my view, all you're doing after that is 'window-dressing' the circuit, which until the PSU(s) have been 'maxed-out', will never realise its full sonic potential - and that is essentially my point regarding the Beresford ;)
However, you're quite right, when there's limited money to spend, a designer must judiciously select the best 'recipe' he can to gain the greatest sonic rewards within his available budget - and that's exactly what Stan does extremely well with his various DACs :)
Marco.
And Stan's DAC's must be profitable for him at their £150 - £250 price range.
I look forward to seeing and eventually hearing what a "statement" StanDAC can do and hopefully it won't need to cost thousands to deliver the goods :)
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 09:24
Send these people an email - http://www.technolink.com.tw/ and ask them when the 'statement' dac will be released :interesting:
Brent
Cheeky ;)
I don't think they're quite the same and the caiman certainly isn't apparently, but if Stan can order enough at the time to his specifications, then why not?
There's a huge amount of far eastern product out there which could be bought for very little as long as you order by the thousand or container-load...
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 09:42
But yes you can get some real bargains and as you said why not. Very hard to get anything built over here for that kind of money.
Also these are on ebay approx £75 + p&p - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250383519390&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I've looked on the web and they are a USA badged version
Brent
StanleyB
24-02-2010, 10:00
Can I make it quite clear FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME that I do not buy any DAC from any company? I design my own stuff and have it made my a sub-contractor, for who I also design stuff. On the back of my DACs it clearly states that it was designed in the UK, and the design has been registered with my solicitors in case I need to sue anyone for copying my design or selling a copy of it.
Several members of AoS have been and are involved in the R&D of the circuitry and case work of my DACs, and I would think that many of them would find it offensive to suggest that none of it is their time and effort, but that it is instead the work of some oriental thousands of miles away.
The persistent allegations that I buy and rebadge the product from a company in Taiwan can be tested if anyone wishes to face up to me in court.
I've looked on the web and they are a USA badged version.
Thing is though, Brent, there's a WORLD of difference between how one of those units sounds as standard, and when it becomes a fully tricked-out Beresford Caiman - and that is where Stan's expertise as an audio designer comes in! :)
*If* he's buying in the raw units from China, or wherever, for £75 and modifying them accordingly to his specifications, with all that this entails, and selling them then as Caimans for £250, then what's wrong with that?
Considering (and I've heard it myself) that the Caiman sonically outperforms some commercial DACs on the market at many times its price, that has to be considered a total bargain and a shining example of 'sound-per-pound-value', so in that regard, Stan has my utmost respect! :cool:
{Edit: oops, this was written before I read Stan's post above}
I accept what Stan has just confirmed and so should everyone else here unless Brent can prove differently.
Marco.
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 10:09
{Post removed}
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 10:09
Brent,
Given what Stan has just written I will have to ask you to withdraw that statement unless you can supply undisputable evidence to support your assertion.
Thanks in advance!
Marco.
I don't disagree about the fact it sounds very good considering its price. I can just see a few products that are the same to look at with the same name and the same exact spec sheet etc (TC-7510)
Brent
That doesn't make them identical though. Therefore please withdraw your earlier remark as requested by deleting it or I will have to.
Cheers!
Marco.
StanleyB
24-02-2010, 10:14
So they are copying your case and circuit (TC-7510)?
Are you going to sue them?
Brent
Do you think that I am some sort of small company operating off the back of a five pence piece??? I have several distributors worldwide and on several continents.
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 10:18
Stan I am not saying you are a 5 pence company at all. I was just curious why there are so many of these products out there without your name on them. I know I would want my name to be world wide if I were doing the same.
Are people not allowed to question this? Why would this cause so much offence it has to be removed? What about all the negative statements by Stan and a few other about me and my upgrades I offer. Will they be removed also?
If I'm wrong then I apologise and take back the earlier statement
Brent
Brent, you're starting to cause a bad smell - are you here simply for the intention of discrediting Stan's products?
I hope not, but it certainly looks that way!!
Marco.
Rowemeister
24-02-2010, 10:22
Not at all. I often advise my customers to buy the beresford dac as its a good price and responds well to upgrades.
Brent
Hi Brent,
If I'm wrong then I apologise and take back the earlier statement
Good, and I appreciate that. However, I think Stan's telling you that you are wrong, so unlesss you can supply undisputable evidence to the contrary then please remove the allegations you made earlier, as requested.
Are people not allowed to question this?
Yes, but not here because this is a hi-fi and music forum, first and foremost. We don't host potentially liebellous accusations made against our trade members. This type of thing should be carried out through the proper channels elsewhere. Therefore, when you're contributing here, you must stick to the audio side of any debate and leave the commercial politics where it belongs.
However, just in case there's any misunderstanding, I'm not trying 'gag' you or cover anything up - I'm simply saying that if you wish to challenge Stan regarding non-audio matters, then that's your prerogative, but you must do so by PM or off of the forum completely.
Why would this cause so much offence it has to be removed?
Because it is potentially libellous and we're not willing to host it.
What about all the negative statements by Stan and a few other about me and my upgrades I offer. Will they be removed also?
Show me where they are (in terms of direct quotes) and I will gladly remove them. Unfortunately I don't have the time to scan through all the posts here in search of what you're referring to.
Brent, I suggest that you give up your battle with Stan and contribute to this community constructively (which to be fair you have been doing mostly up until now) or I may have to suspend your posting rights, which I'm loathe to do, but if you continue in this rather aggressive and inflammatory vein then I will have no other option.
Marco.
I missed this thread so
A quality dac that will reproduce music ina pleasing and engaging fashion for £3000 or under.
How about you guys list what you have found works for you personally and why it does iot for you.
Gosh, this is all getting a bit heavy.
WRT to posts ~3 pages back apologies for confusing electrical engineer with electrician. I would personally use the term electronics engineer to differentiate from electrician as it seems clearer to me but it's not my profession so please forgive my ignorance.
As for DACs I've not heard many standalone DACs. They seemed to fall out of fashion when people realised they weren't as good value as one-box CD players. I suppose they're coming back due to people using a wider variety of digital sources, all of which need a good DAC to perform properly.
I wish I was lucky enough to have access to these £3k DACs but I've only heard one or two of that ilk. All I can really add is that CD players under about £1500 have huge room for improvement and at that sort of price point a lot of corners are still cut and poor quality regulation is employed, but at least circuits are somewhat isolated from each other and the transformers are bigger and have more windings. Often there are 2-3 power transformers.
I think at this somewhat random price-point enough money will have gone in to assure a quite good power supply is in use. They'll still be flawed and quite easy to improve, just less so than at £1000 or £250.
I think the power supply is the most important part and is basically 80% of what separates a good sounding £300 piece of gear from a superb £3000 one. A £300 player or DAC could have the same basic circuit, only in a cheaper box and with less effective power supplies.
Simon
P.S. when I was an electronics engineer I used to be called all sorts of things, including a 'technician' and, worst of all, a 'mechanic'!
It's like one of those things they had on David Frost's show many years back:
I'm an electrical engineer; I look down on him because he's only an electrician.
I'm an electrician; I look up to him because he's an electrical engineer, but I look down on him, because he's an 'audiophile' who can barely wire a plug.
I'm an audiophile. Was that two sugars?
Here's the original:
1mYY1QGK0jQ
Nice - I haven't seen that in a few years :)
Hi
In my experience plenty of electronics engineers could'nt wire a house.
Cheers Dave.
How many Houses have you re-wired today Dave :eyebrows:
I know some electronics engineers who couldn't even 'rewire' a panty girdle, never mind a bloody house!! :lol: :lol:
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
24-02-2010, 19:33
Hi
Dave you know that I have been mostly looking for my credit card,so no houses wired today,and no Marco before you ask the card was'nt for the purchase of Monitor Golds.Anyway problem sorted now,it turns out I have been sponsoring an East European bobsleigh team in the winter olympics for the last couple of days.Anyway thats better than paying for the Nigerian scammers that cleaned me out last time.
I am yours skint Dave.
Hi Dimitri,
EDIT: What I'm trying to say, is that in the quest for "state of the art" there's a logical path to follow. PSU is certainly part of it, but on most components, it comes in the end. Look at the range of Glenn's preamplifiers : the over-specified PSU only comes in the last (most expensive) of the three models. It's not a coincidence...
No, of course it isn't - it's because the margin isn't sufficient in the less expensive models to include one, otherwise the over-specified PSU would've been there in the first place! :eyebrows:
There is no other 'special' reason, mon ami ;)
Marco.
I have just seen an East European looking guy in Lycra dragging a bob sled behind him with a pair of Tannoy's on it. :lol: He looked pleased with himself.
Shit, Vinnie's escaped from the nursing home!! :lolsign:
Marco.
That could be why we keep having the same occuring conversations!
Have you had anything upgraded properly or tried your hand at upgrading yourself?
Brent
I'm not a DIYer, I repeat myself, I don't care about DYIers upgrading, I just find that some commercial upgrades don't make any sense. :confused:
To come back to "upgrades", for instance, there's a DAC (PSAUDIO Link III) that is proposed to be upgraded by the designer himself (Cullen).
Cullen Circuits proposes 4 levels of upgrades. The first level is upgrades in the signal path (output stage) and a ERS cloth, the second is WBT plugs, the third is a better clock, and the fourth (and last) is a digital input isolation.
No PSU upgrades... how strange, isn't it ? :lolsign:
I missed this thread so
A quality dac that will reproduce music ina pleasing and engaging fashion for £3000 or under.
How about you guys list what you have found works for you personally and why it does iot for you.
A Northstar 192MKII : pleasing and engaging musical dac for £1000. Top dac. ;)
How about you guys list what you have found works for you personally and why it does iot for you.
That's a difficult one for me, Tony, simply because I've been so spoiled by listening to Duncan's amazing D.I.Y tube-based DACs that he sells for a ridiculous (although I understand why) price of £300, which sound as good (or probably better) than any commercial DAC at £3000, that the question is somewhat moot....
Furthermore, as someone who prefers the more 'analogue' sonic presentation of classic multi-bit DACs, such as the Sony, I find it hard to enthuse about the sound of most modern commercial DACs in comparison, although Duncan's designs seem to eke out more 'musicality' from modern DAC chips, possibly because of the way they're integrated with a tube output stage.
Perhaps a better way to answer the question would be for me to list what I thought were the best commercially available DACs under £3k which I think most people would like?
I'll mull that one over and come back to you :)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-02-2010, 09:30
i cant belive you lot are still argueing about psu's..... let it go guys, just let it go! if it works for ya, great, if it dont, dont bother... its not hard
We're not arguing... merely expressing views and explaining why we have this view. It's about a bunch of plastic/metal construction... no more !! :)
If I stop exchanging views, it will mean that I don't care about others' opinions (since I'm the one and only tenner of the absolute truth valid for me) and that's it : end of story. ;)
No PSU upgrades... how strange, isn't it ? :lolsign:
Not strange my man, just cheap :)
lol, ok, I'm not posting any more about power supplies in this thread. Those of us who have done the experiments know, those who haven't can wonder about it for eternity.
Simon
Not strange my man, just cheap :)
lol, ok, I'm not posting any more about power supplies in this thread. Those of us who have done the experiments know, those who haven't can wonder about it for eternity.
Simon
Cheap ? :confused:
Surely, as I don't design dacs, I wouldn't dare say that a respected designer like Cullen proposes "cheap" upgrades for his own dacs. Of course, your designs are known worldwide, that's why you can. ;)
For the record, *I did* upgrade my Squeezebox PSU. And I'm not ready to start again. :lolsign:
Cheap ? :confused:
Of course, your designs are known worldwide, that's why you can. ;)
Seems to be a common thing on this forum to make things personal, I don't get it.
Anyhow, it's just my opinion, without seeing how much all those parts and the labour would cost I don't know. But it's also a matter of perceived value. The WBT sockets will make a 2% sort of change to sound quality, assuming the other sockets weren't so great. Why this upgrade then? Because it's relatively cheap at trade prices for the parts, easy to do and looks like it will sound better. A power supply upgrade makes it sound like it wasn't designed properly to begin with even though it is the single most important thing for high end sound. It's also much harder to install because with supplies BIGGER IS BETTER :eyebrows:
Simon
ps - apologies for my off-topic posts, I'm sure I have something useful to say, just not now obviously :eek:
Hi Simon,
It's also much harder to install because with supplies BIGGER IS BETTER...
Indeed - *provided* that it's also better as well as bigger! ;)
I would always put quality ahead of quantity in anything, including power supples :cool:
Marco.
Perhaps I should've put it, BETTER IS BIGGER :D
Leaving aside the protuberance of your 'middle leg' for a moment (:eyebrows:), it isn't always though...
Better and bigger is BETTER than smaller and worse, but smaller and better is BETTER than bigger *but* worse - if that makes any sense ;)
Basically, there is more to a superb PSU than just simply size.
Marco.
It makes sense but the point I was making is that as a rule the best supplies use larger transformers, larger rectifier diodes (arguably), larger smoothing caps, more complex regulation and more supplies separate from one another. Then you may have CLCLC type filters, which can be massive. You may also have large film caps in the psu. All these things are big.
Obviously you can take a great voltage regulator board made with SMD parts and it'll be no bigger than a standard 78xx/78xx or LM317/337 but it's the same size at best. I can't think of many occasions where you could upgrade AND make the supply and regulation stages smaller...
Seems to be a common thing on this forum to make things personal, I don't get it.
It was supposed to be a funny way of stating things, Simon, not a personal criticism. ;)
If it discomforted you, this was not my intention, please accept my apologies. :cool:
Perhaps I should've put it, BETTER IS BIGGER :D:lolsign:
It makes sense but the point I was making is that as a rule the best supplies use larger transformers, larger rectifier diodes (arguably), larger smoothing caps, more complex regulation and more supplies separate from one another. Then you may have CLCLC type filters, which can be massive. You may also have large film caps in the psu. All these things are big.
Obviously you can take a great voltage regulator board made with SMD parts and it'll be no bigger than a standard 78xx/78xx or LM317/337 but it's the same size at best. I can't think of many occasions where you could upgrade AND make the supply and regulation stages smaller...
I agree, Simon. The example I was thinking of was in the case of, say, output and mains transformers on a valve amp: a smaller high quality, hand-wound, transformer could be superior to an inferior, albeit bigger, 'off-the-shelf' unit. Of course, much depends on implementation and the particular requirements of the circuit that's going to be used :)
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.