Cheap upgrade for michell gyro

[AJSki2fly]

Why are you not use the ball bearings that came with it or replacing then with ceramic ones already mentioned in this thread this will give you better isolation, yes you can still use a bit of rubber but I would advise using the balls. Read my previous reply to your original problems.

[gwernaffield]

you need to at least leave the bearing in the suspension tube it must be 7/32 , it keeps the correct height between the acrylic and the base of the pylons.
the only extra bit needed is the little rubber pad, which will squash down to about 1 mm, and the ball sits on that , if you remove the ball the adjuster will be hitting the acrylic , or sitting on the acrylic , which will damage the deck , as there is only about
.25mm when the ball is fitted to the base of the tube clearance,

[AJSki2fly]

Second that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Simes_pep]

read the posting , the orbe bearing used the ceramic uses alumiu oxide, ball , unless you have the feet to go with the string and wood they will not work as they are part 2 of his upgrade path not my words but his,
, you can use the ceramic ones in the pylon tubes, or the delrin , you will have to ask some one else about the string and wood pylon , i will not comment LOL

petehttps://c9dvdw.db.files.1drv.com/y4m8vlqyXTctmJZXXLKBeBBS5rCx-wfylZRafD9djytoUfskn5PP0DQfHAr24F4mhUT_kFqKtqrEBmK lMEWk01S-wzv4guWcnj1pHNDzKX5h2wRnaGzv2ePYt8usj2YDsktmnLo6Mk 2TgK4pFKa-oDTPdXouyn0zOLuYCkfrEX_nt4MHc-WcaeCcH5n9O_VqGKOnjFOnpRHggZkqjT31Rx5JQ?width=660&height=440&cropmode=none

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need i say more

Have a rectangular ISObase, from Steve Rolland at Michell, under the ORBE, with shoes under the tender feet.

I have read the entire thread, and wasn’t clear which material worked best where - so Ceramic in the main bearing & the Delrin ones in the suspension posts, is a good place to start?

Thanks, Simon

[mad-moon]

Have a rectangular ISObase, from Steve Rolland at Michell, under the ORBE, with shoes under the tender feet.

I have read the entire thread, and wasn’t clear which material worked best where - so Ceramic in the main bearing & the Delrin ones in the suspension posts, is a good place to start?

Thanks, Simon

The Delrin balls will be very good in the suspension towers...and may well be to your taste...However, I have tried the Delrin balls on my Gyrodec and the Aluminium Oxide Ceramic balls are by far the best option for me...in both the suspension towers and the main bearing....to get the best from the Alu Ox ceramic balls in the suspension..I advise on using the 8mm dia x 3mm thick sorbothane discs under the balls...your sound stage and stereo image will improve leaps and bounds.

[gwernaffield]

what no wood or string Mr Moon

[AJSki2fly]

what no wood or string Mr Moon

Actually a highly dense hard wood spacer under the arm mounting plate could have great benefits as wood grain can damp frequencies travelling through it. Might try ebony or buloke if I can find some.

[gwernaffield]

Actually i have a large block of ebony doing nothing , but i use a carbon fiber arm board and a dense plastic spacer so that is good enough , the weight of the wood would be too heavy with the sme arm ,max weight 1,1kg according to Michell , But it would also depend on how thick you made the arm board ,
pete

[AJSki2fly]

Actually i have a large block of ebony doing nothing , but i use a carbon fiber arm board and a dense plastic spacer so that is good enough , the weight of the wood would be too heavy with the sme arm ,max weight 1,1kg according to Michell , But it would also depend on how thick you made the arm board ,
pete

I presume there must also be a minimum weight as well.[emoji41]

[gwernaffield]

dont no it was Mr Nye said it could not be more than 1.1 kg , never asked about the minimum ,

[TAD12]

If carbon fibre is used as a dampening medium then why not have a complete ring of carbon fibre instead of the arm spacers, and leave the arm board as is. Any thoughts??
kind regards.
Tad.

[AJSki2fly]

If carbon fibre is used as a dampening medium then why not have a complete ring of carbon fibre instead of the arm spacers, and leave the arm board as is. Any thoughts??
kind regards.
Tad.

Yes that’s probably one of the best options, BUT have a look at the cost of a piece of carbon fibre big enough and the the cost of having it machined. I think it may be prohibitively expensive for most, but if you can afford it then why not.

I know someone who works at an F1 factory, and what they throw out you would not believe, so I am going to ask if that may be a possibility of a getting a piece. But machining it cheaply won’t be easy.

[gwernaffield]

https://smaqyq.db.files.1drv.com/y4mPTnp35qn2UVDGiJwe4QoLXAaALWz5tFbYXqNSRwz05TZ8eJ A98j5N5H0ofppkN7J0LLGIOgNnN-7Ky84c1SEK6FpcMXONnrJde0UjoM0cB8TrZcLl-CGDKCcSyRxJPkYWc1mrh8-Lmg3Zewc3jRMrmWQEIiRtgfY6WzZGg1wHe9oywhFv7WUR--FKgJgwuBl8iBQfPZkG-uroeuy1D8BwA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

just cost Tad. this was expensive and is 22mm thick , i used the michell arm board as a template , had to use i longer screw to earth the arm and the board , i have not seen any thing as thick on ebay since,

[TAD12]

Thanks for the input. I may have a guy here in Montreal who would be prepared to do this work, (friend of a friend etc.,). watch this space, i.e. next month!
t.

[TAD12]

Dear Adrian, if you can get a piece of CF, may we make arrangements via PM?. Thanks so much for your efforts. T.

[AJSki2fly]

I will see what my mate says, it may not be possible.

[gwernaffield]

Cf plate 22mm thick
https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/plates-panels-angles/carbon-fiber-plate/carbon-fiber-machining-block/433-group

[TAD12]

I see what you mean about the cost. additionally, as it's an import from the USA, there is import tax and duty to pay. about 20% for starters. I'm going to have a good look here in Montreal to see if any interest. How does sheets of sorbothane glued together and cut to size appeal? From previous comments appears this may be too soft and not stiff enough. As always, you can request me to stop, but I like new approaches and ideas, just in case you had not guessed!
kind regards,
T.

[gwernaffield]

HI tad the sorbithane is like a jelly with a skin on hence the different duro rating i have only used 50 duro , hard to find 70 or 90 ,you can buy sorbothane Bobbins but the thread is M6 and not the M5 needed, so a special reducer would have to be made,
https://www.thorlabs.com/locations.cfm
These have sorbothane at 70 duro , also trying to glue sorbothane is a swine, super glue cracks, it depends on what you are trying to create i used 3 sorbothane washers under the arm board onto the base and passed the bolts through , but when you tighten it up they just went to mush , hence the bobbin idea , but i think if you use the bobbins you will need 6 all together as i found movement in the ones i have ,so i put 3 nylon spacers which just slide in to stop this , now it is 100% magic
kind regards
pete

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=6421

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=1867&pn=BMF4/M

[TAD12]

Pete, thanks for the update. T.

[gwernaffield]

Tad they seem to do feet as well and are in Canada, so no import duties,

pete

[gwernaffield]

well after month of doing the pylons, and some little bits, i don't think now i have any more to add, it has been a great way to learn ,what will and wont work, the Pylons being the Cream of the Bunch , one which i just cannot Better , the cost went up as things were added, which is out of my control ,what i did learn was the engineering company has to make money regardless, the better the company the better the job , but the price was higher , each set was made as near to the sizes given , and not to a std size
which will have to happen even though i do not want that , i have the new sizes for decks from 2014 , the ones before that can be any size, with the solid post being imperial ,yes the nut will fit but wobble from side to side, The M10 is far too big for the early decks , with out the split adjuster , Mr Moon has painted the Nuts on his pylons, not sure how he has done that Acetal /Derin does not like paint so if you require painted ones ask Mr Moon , he will be happy to supply them to you ,

experiments with sorbothane , the problem with this stuff is it is like jelly with a skin on , i did not manage to buy any 70 -90 duro stuff ,all the stuff was 50 duro , i tried to make washers to go under the arm board onto the arm board spacers
on tightening up it seemed fine , but on inspection , the sorbothane had just turned to a mush, not doing anything ,if i had left it loose the arm would of not been in the correct position ,
The Suspension Bobbins , work 100% better than any spacer (acrylic ) arm board add on what you wish to call it , the bobbins having rubber separating the threads so they never touch , i used Nylon Screws , and the rest was easy ,
They gave better arm isolation , as now the arm was not getting 99% of vibration into the base, from any where in the chassis ,this being damped out by the rubber ,
The way i looked at this was a sme 3009 used Rubber Grommets through the base plate to the arm board , what is good enough for SME is good enough for the michell but on a bigger scale,,,
i put 3 other ones under the arm board just to help stop any movement these are not fixed, but held with some double sided tape , you can buy carbon fiber 120mm x120mm x22mm and use the sme arm board as a template, use a tile hole cutter to do the holes,
a angle grinder to do the roughing out with a cutting disk attached, but do this out side wear PPE gloves mask , etc , and then seal with some car clear coat paint

cost of board is £175 just for the Carbon off eBay ,and is a DIY project ,

pete

[gwernaffield]

the pylons are for sale if you want to buy them just pm me pete

[BendBound]

A month or so back, I learned about Peter's suspension upgrade from a friend of mine who also has a JA Michell GyroDec. He has been in a long search for how to get this turntable to sound better or even as good as a lower end turntable he also uses. Both of us over the years have investigated various upgrades to these wonderful but in one way seriously flawed turntables. We each had issues with the performance of the turntable that we found frustrating to solve. Something was robbing the sound reproduction in these turntables and it was hard to understand why. As we all know, Gert Pedersen in Denmark has done a lot to get these Michell turntables to the next level. So has SolidAir. A lot of those efforts surround improvements to suspension, eliminating a natural resonator called a spring. However, I was not prepared to take a drill to my suspension or use sand in some of the suggested modifications. I mean, it was more likely that I would sell the turntable than do that to it and I know for a fact that my friend was of the same mind.

Besides using acrylic toroids under the armboard, my friend and I have experimented with employing vibration control devices under platforms that the turntables sits upon. In my case, I was astonished at the improvement that passive vibration control devices brought. That really tightened up every aspect of the sound reproduction. As a consequence, I felt that I had eliminated most of the issues that derive from undampened spring vibrations in the GyroDec. I was by and large satisfied and I shared that view the other day with Mad-Moon as we discussed upgrade options for the GyroDec.

So a few weeks ago, my friend and I made the necessary measurements to get our GyroDecs fitted with Peter's "castlenut" suspension assemblies. The design reminded me of the suspension bridge over the River Tweed at Peebles, Scotland. Also, transmission towers use a similar structural design; it is very stable, incredibly strong and an effective design. What Peter has come up with is a significant design evolution from the SolidAir approach. So together we pulled the trigger and ordered sets. They arrived in a week once shipped from the UK to the US.

Friday I installed the new pylon suspension system. My measurements were bang on and the pylons installed quickly, in less than 30 minutes, soap to nuts. I did not employ the included sorbothane pads, instead I used Herbie's Audio's Grungebuster material. I punched out a 1/4" diameter disc on 1/8" thick Grungebuster with adhesive backing. That fit perfectly on the top part of the lower suspension post and slips into the upper post perfectly. The adhesive backing meant that the vibration-absorbing pad stayed on the lower post. I employed the ceramic bearings because I did not believe the static load on the turntable was large enough to adversely impact the bearing. I did remove the green copper grease in the upper post and replaced it with a small dab of silicone grease. I have not yet installed the ceramic ball bearing on the main bearing. That change is pending. It took only a few minutes with several bubble levels to get the GyroDec properly level.

Then I pulled out a small stack of records that I have been playing recently. First in the stack is Kate Wolf's 1975-1985 Retrospective. This is what I heard. The detail is just better all the way around but not analytical. The sound stage is the biggest difference. Everything seems to be in a natural and sweet focus. The bass is taut and firm, just right. Overall a nicer tone, not muddled. Crisp sounding, as if Kate was performing in the room, just right. I did not think the difference would be like this. Other changes I've made produced a stunning improvement. The change here is in tone. Little things all around improved that tighten up the sound reproduction. An overall sweeter tone. Detail across the audio frequency spectrum was just better. Quite relaxed. Just sweet.

Then I put on a jazz record that I know well and have been playing lately, Music Matters SRX release of Horace Silver's Song of My Father. The difference here was pronounced. Particularly on the drums and hi-hats. The change just jumped out at me in literally a head-turning, can-you-believe-that moment. Here the bass response was unreal, just so much better. I had commented a month or so ago on the Steve Hoffman Forum in a Music Matters thread that the drum kit was polite in this pressing, a bit subdued. I did not necessarily hear that so pronounced on the mostly acoustic guitar Kate Wolf album. But on this jazz title, it was more than obvious. As I listened to more and more records, I was pleasantly surprised at what I was hearing.

I told my friend that I believe the changes we’ve just made have moved this turntable to a new, better and higher level. The cost for this upgrade is relatively minimal, particularly in relation to the entire turntable cost. A local audiophile friend who knows my system well was over on Friday afternoon. He said this: “Your turntable before sounded awesome. Now that I hear some of the same titles again, what I hear is the muddiness is gone. I would never have described your turntable as muddy. But now I hear a new clarity and all of its attendant impacts on imaging and soundstage. The biggest impact is in the bass because it’s not muddy. Instead it’s more defined, refined and louder." We played some five or six records, selected cuts.

The turntable sounded really good to me before I installed Peter's suspension. For me it was hard to imagine a leap in performance. Given what I have done prior, I was thinking I would hear an incremental improvement. The improvement, however, is one of immediate refinement and it is quite obvious. This suspension makes the GyroDec just better overall in hard-to-articulate ways. The hotness or stridency or metallic sounding as in the upper registers is tamed. The bass is super clear and powerful. Best of all is a beautiful soundstage and imaging. Nice note decay in imaging and soundspace is extended. Just lots of refinement. The best way to describe what I now hear is refinement to every aspect of sound reproduction. And that is sweet.

One more change that I made here. Now under each of the three "orbital lander" footers on the Michell, I have placed a Grungebuster disc inside one of these lamp check rings (https://www.grandbrass.com/item/crt1-0x8/checkrings-turned_brass_checkrings-18ips/). The 1/8" thick Grungebuster has an adhesive on one side and in this application, it is up, and in contact with the Michell footer. This Grungebuster is several thousands of an inch proud of the lamp check ring, so the ring does not touch the maple base or the turntable for that matter. I did not want to install skateboard wheels on the turntable, so these pads are my solution to potential movement of the table on the maple blocks in my system.

I told my friend who introduced me to Peter's suspension system that I was really glad he found this upgrade and shared it with me.

And to you Peter. Thank you! Well done.

[33na3rd]

A month or so back, I learned about Peter's suspension upgrade from a friend of mine who also has a JA Michell GyroDec. He has been in a long search for how to get this turntable to sound better or even as good as a lower end turntable he also uses. Both of us over the years have investigated various upgrades to these wonderful but in one way seriously flawed turntables. We each had issues with the performance of the turntable that we found frustrating to solve. Something was robbing the sound reproduction in these turntables and it was hard to understand why. As we all know, Gert Pedersen in Denmark has done a lot to get these Michell turntables to the next level. So has SolidAir. A lot of those efforts surround improvements to suspension, eliminating a natural resonator called a spring. However, I was not prepared to take a drill to my suspension or use sand in some of the suggested modifications. I mean, it was more likely that I would sell the turntable than do that to it and I know for a fact that my friend was of the same mind.

Besides using acrylic toroids under the armboard, my friend and I have experimented with employing vibration control devices under platforms that the turntables sits upon. In my case, I was astonished at the improvement that passive vibration control devices brought. That really tightened up every aspect of the sound reproduction. As a consequence, I felt that I had eliminated most of the issues that derive from undampened spring vibrations in the GyroDec. I was by and large satisfied and I shared that view the other day with Mad-Moon as we discussed upgrade options for the GyroDec.

So a few weeks ago, my friend and I made the necessary measurements to get our GyroDecs fitted with Peter's "castlenut" suspension assemblies. The design reminded me of the suspension bridge over the River Tweed at Peebles, Scotland. Also, transmission towers use a similar structural design; it is very stable, incredibly strong and an effective design. What Peter has come up with is a significant design evolution from the SolidAir approach. So together we pulled the trigger and ordered sets. They arrived in a week once shipped from the UK to the US.

Friday I installed the new pylon suspension system. My measurements were bang on and the pylons installed quickly, in less than 30 minutes, soap to nuts. I did not employ the included sorbothane pads, instead I used Herbie's Audio's Grungebuster material. I punched out a 1/4" diameter disc on 1/8" thick Grungebuster with adhesive backing. That fit perfectly on the top part of the lower suspension post and slips into the upper post perfectly. The adhesive backing meant that the vibration-absorbing pad stayed on the lower post. I employed the ceramic bearings because I did not believe the static load on the turntable was large enough to adversely impact the bearing. I did remove the green copper grease in the upper post and replaced it with a small dab of silicone grease. I have not yet installed the ceramic ball bearing on the main bearing. That change is pending. It only took only a few minutes with several bubble levels to get the GyroDec properly level.

Then I pulled out a small stack of records that I have been playing recently. First in the stack is Kate Wolf's 1975-1985 Retrospective. This is what I heard. The detail is just better all the way around but not analytical. The sound stage is the biggest difference. Everything seems to be in a natural and sweet focus. The bass is taut and firm, just right. Overall a nicer tone, not muddled. Crisp sounding, as if Kate was performing in the room, just right. I did not think the difference would be like this. Other changes I've made produced a stunning improvement. The change here is in tone. Little things all around improved that tighten up the sound reproduction. An overall sweeter tone. Detail across the audio frequency spectrum was just better. Quite relaxed. Just sweet.

Then I put on a jazz record that I know well and have been playing lately, Music Matters SRX release of Horace Silver's Song of My Father. The difference here was pronounced. Particularly on the drums and hi-hats. The change just jumped out at me in literally a head-turning, can-you-believe-that moment. Here the bass response was unreal, just so much better. I had commented a month or so ago on the Steve Hoffman Forum in a Music Matters thread that the drum kit was polite in this pressing, a bit subdued. I did not necessarily hear that so pronounced on the mostly acoustic guitar Kate Wolf album. But on this jazz title, it was more than obvious. As I listened to more and more records, I was pleasantly surprised at what I was hearing.

I told my friend that I believe the changes we’ve just made have moved this turntable to a new, better and higher level. The cost for this upgrade is relatively minimal, particularly in relation to the entire turntable cost. A local audiophile friend who knows my system well was over on Friday afternoon. He said this: “Your turntable before sounded awesome. Now that I hear some of the same titles again, what I hear is the muddiness is gone. I would never have described your turntable as muddy. But now I hear a new clarity and all of its attendant impacts on imaging and soundstage. The biggest impact is in the bass because it’s not muddy. Instead it’s more defined, refined and louder." We played some five or six records, selected cuts.

The turntable sounded really good to me before I installed Peter's suspension. For me it was hard to imagine a leap in performance. Given what I have done prior, I was thinking I would hear an incremental improvement. The improvement, however, is one of immediate refinement and it is quite obvious. This suspension makes the GyroDec just better overall in hard-to-articulate ways. The hotness or stridency or metallic sounding as in the upper registers is tamed. The bass is super clear and powerful. Best of all is a beautiful soundstage and imaging. Nice note decay in imaging and soundspace is extended. Just lots of refinement. The best way to describe what I now hear is refinement to every aspect of sound reproduction. And that is sweet.

One more change that I made here. Now under each of the three "orbital lander" footers on the Michell, I have place a Grungebuster disc inside one of these lamp check rings (https://www.grandbrass.com/item/crt1-0x8/checkrings-turned_brass_checkrings-18ips/). The 1/8" thick Grungebuster has an adhesive on one side and in this application, it is up, and in contact with the Michell footer. This Grungebuster is several thousands of an inch proud of the lamp check ring, so the ring does not touch the maple base or the turntable for that matter. I did not want to install skateboard wheels on the turntable, so these pads are my solution to the movement of the table on my maple blocks.

I told my friend who introduced me to Peter's suspension system that I was really glad he found this upgrade and that shared it with me.

And to you Peter. Thank you! Well done.

I'm the other Gyro SE owner mentioned in the post above.

I agree 100% with BendBound's observations. While we both have Gyro SE's, we have different tonearms and still we both heard the same improvements.

I can't really add anything more meaningful to BendBound's review/impressions, except to mention that during the two decades that I've owned my Gyro SE that I've had 3 different phono cartridges, 3 different armboard isolation systems, and tried 4 different phono preamps. I always struggled with a metal sounding sheen that seemed to affect the upper highs, especially with Rock or Female Opera singers. For awhile I was saving my Gyro for Jazz & Classical, and playing Rock on my other turntable.

Pete's Pylons made a bigger change to my Gyro than all the other changes that came before.

That metal sounding sheen has now vanished, and my Gyro is happy playing all genres! It took me awhile longer to get around to writing this than I intended, because after I first installed Pete's Pylons all I wanted to do was sit and listen to music on my improved machine.

There were times in the past that I thought about selling my Gyro and trying something else. After Pete's improvements to my Gyro, I can now say that my Michell is a keeper!

Thank you Pete!

[gwernaffield]

i originally wanted these to be about the £80 mark , however the cost to machine them is over that now with the way the nut is made, and the base,,, add the rest of the parts hence the price as it is at £150, plus post , the change in price is down to the machine shop , with quotes of up to £180 for machining alone, as i cannot order large amounts due to the way the deck is made, each hole can be a different size and often are ,all 3 holes end up being different sizes on some chassis in which case they will be made to the largest one, and owner support is needed,

i know about solidair but any resemblance to them is coincidental, and costly , for your ears,,,,. and wallet ,,,,
they will not include the rest of the pack that is with the Pylons above,,,but will have a nice looking TIN to keep your Bits in ,

Thank you for the reviews above, and i hope i can keep supplying them,,, Marco has been great in all of this, and the members of AOS who helped in doing them ,i cannot say thank you enough for the support of Mr Moon , Ginnimag , who must of though i had lost the plot in doing these with all the different ways , only for the ones in use to come out on top , of the whole bunch of trying over the past 3 years, but only uploaded this year ,
some i would not show due to the laughing i could Hear ,
the one thing in the back of my mind was what would happen if the o-ring snapped, in the end it was down to that one thought , to not damage the cartridge if one failed, unlike string , wool ,which will fail ,there was no give , putting extra strain on the main bearing when fitting the clamp , where the o-rings have the give to allow the clamp to be fitted with out putting a lot of strain on the main bearing ,

what is in the Kit you can see on the picture above the reviews, 4 ceramic bearings ( ebay cost is £4,50 each ) ptfe washers , 36 o rings (18 spare ) sorbothane pads ( cannot get grunge buster due to cost and import duty ) 3 sorbothane washers , recently added, 3 pylons, set up and ready to be fitted to the chassis,
,,,
the design has noting to do with Michell , who i am told are working on there own way of replacing the spring in the future ,,,they would consider this design close to sme design,,,and would not consider taking it on as suggested by some of the reviews,,, SME uses a oil filled damper , and special 100strand o-rings at a cost of £8 each ,,, i have never seen the sme design or operation ,or even listened to one of there fabulous turntables ,, only read in some of the reviews in some of the mags that sme has o-rings supported by a damper and a special o-ring of their design and manufacture that uses a 100 strands of rubber ,,

These use the twist in the standard o-rings to help in the support and the twist helps in the bounce ,,,o-rings can be bought any were in the world for pennies, so the idea they are similar is beyond me, chalk and cheese come to mind,they have evolved over several years,,,using 1000's of different o-ring types, (accept sme's version too expensive for me ) makes and compounds, but left with the black cheap version , so any one can buy them around the world,,,

please do not expect a fancy box, or Tin,

[AJSki2fly]

OK so the rubber bobbins arrived from China today after 2-3 weeks at the cost of £1.97 M5-Male-Female-Anti-Vibration-Rubber-Mounts-Isolators (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4pcs-M5-Male-Female-Anti-Vibration-Rubber-Mounts-Isolators-15mm-x-15mm-D9B1/332766587349?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)

I already had the 25mm Sorbothane anti vibration feet SORBOTHANE-ANTI-VIBRATION-FEET-11-19-25-30-40-50mm-Turntables-Speakers-PCs (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SORBOTHANE-ANTI-VIBRATION-FEET-11-19-25-30-40-50mm-Turntables-Speakers-PCs/290971718688?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=590282342564&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)

and I had some 2mm silicone rubber sheet

and the Loo rubber fitting for to fit and support the motor Close-Coupling-Washer-Doughnut-Stepped-Type-Toilet-Cistern-WC (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Close-Coupling-Washer-Doughnut-Stepped-Type-Toilet-Cistern-WC-Repair/151015907763?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) The Doughnut needs about 3/4" cut out of it and then it needs to be carefully and gradually trimmed using a stanley knife so that when it wraps around the motor the tube tightly slide s over the rubber. Be careful doing this.

First the Sorbothane feet and the 2mm silicone rubber are a last modification to the new feet (skateboard wheels - 4pcs-Skateboard-Wheels-52mm-100A-Skating-Board-Road-Wheels-PU-Wheels-32mm-width (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4pcs-Skateboard-Wheels-52mm-100A-Skating-Board-Road-Wheels-PU-Wheels-32mm-width/163112064047?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=462269436146&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649). I previously fitted the wheels replacing the original metal feet, I fitted them as Peter's instructions using using one of these V-Bush-Shock-Solid-Rubber-Mounting-Absorber-Dampener-ID-9mm-OD-23mm-L-16mm (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/V-Bush-Shock-Solid-Rubber-Mounting-Absorber-Dampener-ID-9mm-OD-23mm-L-16mm/282517043870?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=581677389043&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) cut in half, ream out slightly and screwed onto the fitting that the metal feet come off. Originally I had the other half of the rubber bush in the bottom with a 3mm disc of sorbothane glued to it. This worked quite well and using an accelerometer I measured a reduction of vibrations to the platter by around 50%, having taken before and after readings. The resulting improved clarity and low end definition was the result.

After some thought I realised that have a sorbothane foot in the bottom instead would probably give better isolation and vibration absorption. Photos are below.

https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/IMG_0927_zpshvnad8g2.jpg

Use the rubber bushes to draw round and then cut out the rubber, the additional 2mm is needed as the weight on the 25mm sorbathane feet it too much and squashed them down too far.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/IMG_0928_zpsaptu3emy.jpg

Above Rubber disk fitted in the foot

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/IMG_0932_zpsjnijkoav.jpg

Sorbothane foot fitted into the skateboard wheel

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/IMG_0933_zpsoueunugg.jpg

You can see above the compression on the sorbothane with the weight on it

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/IMG_0934_zpsmlpo1emx.jpg

As you can see I loaded up the spider with the platter and the chassis on top just to test the sorbothane was not compressing too much

Whilst I had it all stripped down I also fitted sorbothane disks/waskers around the pylons, they are sit on top of the bottom nuts and I find them to the nut using double sided tape. You then rebuild the pylon suspension with the rubber O Rings and rebuild the unit. the purpose of the sorbothane washers is to try and gain a bit more of vibration isolation and limit microphone through the chassis. Pete said it works and I believe him.

The final and most tricky job was to fit the rubber bobbins under the acrylic spacer that I have and adjust the SME arm. By fitting it as per the photo below it not only give better isolation to the arm itself from the chassis but also means that the arm pillar his now much lower in the clamp and thus better supported. You may also notice a 2mm silicone washer between the metal arm base and the acrylic, once again to gain as much isolation as possible.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/IMG_0935_zpsleqaht2v.jpg


So how does it all sound. Well I am very pleased with the result, feedback noise from the platter bearing to the cartridge I would say has been virtually reduced to nothing. The immediate most noticeable change is yet again an improvement in focus of elements of the soundstage, instruments are now very clearly defined in the mix. The other and very pleasing aspect is that bass is once again better defined and as clearer extension. I am currently listening to Santana - Amigo album and I have to say it it the best I have heard it on my systems. Just wonderful.

I think the timing may have improved due to the rubber support in the motor, also that is much quieter.

Finally, I just remembered to do my stupid test of taping the acrylic shelf my TT sits on whilst playing a record and see how loud the tapping is through the system. A big shock it is virtually inaudible, so the feet and other mods have had a major improvement to isolating the TT, MAGIC!

So my advise to all of you out there with a Gyrodec or Orbe is replace the feet and do the above, its not hard to do and costs very little. I would at least fit the rubber bobbins under your arm board, anything you can do to minimise feedback from the chassis to the arm is a big bonus.

Give it a go I think you will be amazed.

[gwernaffield]

i am glad that this has worked so well,,Michell will no doubt change the feet the suspension and several other things in the future ,,but remember where that all started at half the cost with no bells and whistles,added , since the gyro and orbe where made,, materials have moved on and the decks have stood still, both in time and development as development takes Time, so i am told, and money , the design is totally mine the IP 6055773 and took a long time to get correct

This thread is intended to help those who own the gyro or orbe wanting to enhance the deck on a shoe string ,,

The design of the pylons may be done with some thing less complected but will it have the strength? , or will it end up being a rubber bung with the deck sat on top hidden with the cap ,(in compression i do not know)

it is open to those who wish to try,, to re-tweak the upgrade to their design is fine by me ,,

The cost of my pylons is down to the true engineering that went into the design and not the use of a computer to see if the vibration was in the wrong pitch to hide the nose of the bearing , all i have are ears and use of friends , who would be honest enough to tell me if the pylons work or are rubbish , thankfully it is been 100 % good news,

The only way i can get the cost down is to have more than one order at a time, and then a discount happen, because of the machine shop setting up fees, 1 set is the same fee as for 10 sets , with Michell not making the holes one size fits all,, it has been impossible to do,
ATB
gwernaffield

[Whitesnake]

After reading all the positive reviews, went or ordered the kit with the pylons, rubber pads and the bearings. It arrived to Canada in less than 2 weeks. The installation took an hour and I’ve been living with these for a month now.

These mods do work and here’s what they did to my sound:

The separation of instruments became real apparent from the first needle drop and everything snapped in focus. Most of the time it felt like listening to unfamiliar mixes. Suddenly I heard instruments, which were previously buried, comes to life.

Spoken words became more articulated and therefore clearer than they ever been.

High and low frequencies are not extended. What I got instead is more definition all across the board. Although bass lines are now easier to follow and cymbals are quite distinguishable, I found the biggest impact in the mids where the information is more refined.

Isolation wise, I will only say that tapping on the turntable shelf is still amplified. This did not make any neither positive nor negative effect for that matter.

That said, I believe that the sum of all these changes do bring the table to another level. This will not change how the cartridge sounds but it will definitely change how it sings. Expect a third dimensionality to your listening experience. The space between and beyond the speakers will be filled with floating information. It will become real apparent what’s been recorded in and out of phase and what the engineers at the mixing console intended to achieve. The 3 d effect is just mind blowing.

Of course not all vinyl records are created equally (sadly) but these mods will bring out the best of what’s in the grooves.

Good job Pete!

Michel

[YNWaN]

Can you put some of that into sentences please?

[gwernaffield]

with 100% feedback world wide, i think they work well enough

[struth]

To be fair, Peter has plenty of people who have got sets of them and are all happy. Thats what counts.

[gwernaffield]

thank you grant ,
as i said i have only ears to test these, not a computer that says no ,,,,
test equipment is fine in the lab but useless in the home,,, when the washing machine, the kids , the dishwasher and tv are all adding to the vibration in the house,,,,
the design came out of the need to try and get a better wider sound stage ,after reading on PFM that the gyro and orbe where a bit thin on the sound stage, the mid range can be a bit lost , the problem being the original design of the gyro and the design of the transrotor delight , the delight is sat on springs , in the same position ,
Michell changed it to a suspended design , will no doubt change it again,, but how and what too i do not know,,

it just seems if you want to get a head with something in HIFI , be it a cable or a piece of hardware some one will always have a go, as it was not their idea , quote all kinds of technical data ,web sites, and every thing they can throw at you ,,,

these are my sons and not mine, he pays the TAX , and has to do a lot of other things, i gave him the design ,

as it seems not good enough for the professors who constantly want to put their pennies worth into these forums, and forget it is a Hobby and not a class room, i just have to throw this open to debate off them ,, all will rubbish the idea in the first place ,
the people who have them can always contact us and get their money back at any time with in the first 6 months of use,

regards
pete

[YNWaN]

Well, you asked and I explained; if you don’t like the explanation then don’t ask. IMO, if Michell really want to improve on what they have they should reconsider the motor mounting, get a more accurate drive belt made, reduce the tension of the drive belt and rethink the suspension (possibly also the suspended mass). At present it seems that the lateral frequency is too low and, for whatever reason this is causing the suspension to deflect and this is causing small speed fluctuations - stiffening up the suspension reduces this but it will also reduce isolation - there is an element of inevitable ‘swings and roundabouts’, one compromise versus another.

[YNWaN]

i hope this helps i no these will end up getting rubbished, as there are far more knowledgeable people them my self , but as long as i have made some people happy , i am happy with that,,

You hope that what helps? Honestly, I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make with regard to ‘Solidair’, or even exactly what you are complaining about. I don’t want to be the ‘grammar police’ but your post is really difficult to interpret.

[gwernaffield]

i am sorry for my short comings in English and the way i was taught in the education system ,

i am sorry you have problems with my grammar ,it is not meant to upset any one, ,, the meaning of them being rubbished ,, some one will come up with a reason on not to use them ,,, so far every thing has been personal , like the grammar comment

which is fine by me, The i hope bit ,,, was to explain the back ground in engineering , ok it may not be in this industry,,

[struth]

keep it non personal please....:)

[BendBound]

I agree that isolation from all vibration is paramount. Some manufacturers, Rega for example, goes with light, and low resonant materials. Other manufacturers go with massive platters and other suspension cures. I could simply sell my Michell and try one of the other options. Instead, I've been working for some time to figure out how to isolate my TT from external vibration and to minimize the effects of resonant frequencies within the the TT itself. Removing the spring and using the lattice bridgework castlenut system Peter designed helped immensely on the internal sources of vibration.

In addition to that replaced suspension, I use an acyrlic toroid under my armboard, separated by 1/16" large washer of Herbie's Audio Grungebuster, a platinum curried silicone material that is terrific at absorbing vibration. The entire armboard-toroid system is mounted on hard rubber spacers too, to isolate the tonearm from the chassis, using also a 1/16" small washer of Grungebuster to interface with the toroid. The turntable sits on a 4" thick maple block. But under each of the three Michell feet I have a 1" diameter turned brass lamp shade ring (LSR) into which is a 1" diameter disc of 1/8" thick Grungebuster. I use Grungebuster with an adhesive side and that side is up into the LSR so that the finished side would be down on the shelf. Since the LSR has a hole in the center, the adhesive side of the Grungebuster is exposed. The Michell sits on that adhesive bit, finished side of Grungebuster on the shelf, and the Michell feet do not touch the LSR, making the TT completely stable from movement on the maple block.

For outside of the TT, I have my turntable mounted on a 4" thick Mapleshade Samson maple block. That block is supported by three particle dampers. All of that is on yet another thick maple shelf. I can tap on the lower shelf and nothing comes through my TT. I can rap on the 4" thick maple block and it does not pass through.

All of this has incrementally added to a very low external and internal vibration control of the TT. While still not perfect, folks who hear it in my house say they have never heard a system that sounded that good. When I play vinyl, folks are astonished that I'm playing a vinyl record because it is so quite, the detail is awesome and the soundstage is terrific.

So Peter in my humble opinion has advanced the discussion on how to solve a rather serious design flaw built into the Michell GryoDec. SME uses a somewhat similar approach to thwart vibration issues in their products. SolidAir has a completing product, and I would expect them to attack Peter's design simply to protect their own niche. Michell is not going to adopt Peter's solution because of "not-invented-here" syndrome, and the fact that to do so now, means that they have no better ideas but to adopt what someone else has done. Gert Petersen has a solution too.

So I applaud Peter for his tireless work toward making the GyroDec a better turntable. And I look forward to seeing what the next generation of designers come up with for the final cure.

[AJSki2fly]

Turntable isolation generally relates to two planes of movement, lateral and vertical. Ideally, a turntable should be equally well isolated in all planes but achieving such is a lot easier said than done. Look at the isolation systems that Minus K build (https://www.minusk.com/).

the system of springs in extension that Michell use gives a very low resonant frequency but this means that the suspension is very soft and easily deflected. The motor sits outside of the suspension and so errors between the drive and the chassis can easily upset the suspension and therefore alter the tension of the drive belt - this will directly impact upon speed stability. Stiffening the suspension will, no doubt imbue the suspended mass with added stability, but it will also raise the resonant frequency of the suspension. The design balance comes when one has to weigh up whether it is better to have increased isolation or increased stability. In general, I am not keen on motoring analogies applied to audio, but I will have a go anyway. On the one hand you have a motorway cruiser with a suspension designed to glide over uneven road surfaces - however, it wallows when asked to go round tight corners at speed. On the other hand you have a sports car with a much stiffer suspension, the body remains flat under hard cornering but the suspension transmits every ridge and bump of the road surface. Unless the whole drive system is reinvented, there is no free lunch here.

Mark, you are partially correct but using springs is a very tricky thing to do on any mechanical device. A spring itself has its own resonant frequency, as you point out, and if you hit the frequency or get close when the spring is used it can result in unexpected isolations. For example I have spent many hours trying to tune Morgan sports car suspension(notoriously tricky to get right) and an old MR2 hill climb car, the balance of the spring and how it is damped is very important to get the desired result, damping is predominantly done in this situation with shock absorber and bump stops.

For me the lack of damping in the Gyrodec suspension is probably a key issue here, effectively it has none or is minimal, so as you say when the platter turns it will impart forces on the springs, and the result will be wow/flutter or instability. This movement in itself will cause some level of noise and vibration, even though you will not hear it.

There other some other serious issue IMO, the direct coupling of the feet to the suspension towers is a great way to transmit vibration into them and ultimately into the springs, and also the chassis, this is especially true on the Gyrodec. The Orbe has a double spider in an attempt to decouple the feet from the chassis. There is another added factor which is the chassis IMO has a bell like character, Michell have obviously recognised this and tried to limit ringing or resonance by using a heavy putty like material to dampen it. The issue here is that if there is resonance and vibration entering the chassis then it will ultimately get to the arm and probably through the bearing to the platter. If you are to dampen something then it needs to be done so that you don't just move the vibrations or resonance to another frequency which has a different but just as bad and effect.

I have actually measured vibrations on the platter using a simple accelerometer before and after making modifications to feet and pylons, and this supports the above as after making the changes the vibrations are lessened dramatically. I used to work in the Wolfson Unit Sound and Vibration Lab many years ago so have some practical experience in this area.

From my personal experience the new pylons from Peter do make a significant improvement in the end result from a Gyrodec, this is because they have be developed and designed to to limit rotational movement of the chassis and at the same time give the chassis better damping, albeit in a stiffer spring (rubber o-rings). The result is an immediate improvement in the clarity and openness of the sound stage and as a result more detail.

Other areas that can be simply and cheaply addressed to limit feedback into the chassis are to replace the metal feet, see my earlier post, this results in at least a 50% decrease in vibration reaching the platter(measured). Another area the can be addressed to to try and de-couple the arm mounting from the chassis, not easy to do, but by using a silicone rubber gasket between the chassis and the arm board an improvement can be made. I have not experimented greatly in this area but 2mm off silicone rubber to my ears does result and more detail from the reproduction.

[YNWaN]

I should add that I am not saying that Peter’s ‘Pylon’ mod does not work and I’m certainly not arguing that springs are the best solution for a turntable isolation (not metal springs implemented as Michell do). I’m just saying that there is a trade off at work. In the case of the Michell it appears that the weakest link is the spatial relationship between the motor and the chassis/platter and the ‘Pylon’ mod seems to address this whilst maintaining sufficient low frequency isolation (I’m going off my experience of SME decks and working with O rings). Another consideration with isolation is what vibration you are trying to isolate your equipment from and at what amplitude - for example, is it noise from the motor, vibration from the speakers, or vibration in the building and/or footfall.

[YNWaN]

i am sorry for my short comings in English and the way i was taught in the education system ,

i am sorry you have problems with my grammar ,it is not meant to upset any one, ,, the meaning of them being rubbished ,, some one will come up with a reason on not to use them ,,, so far every thing has been personal , like the grammar comment

which is fine by me, The i hope bit ,,, was to explain the back ground in engineering , ok it may not be in this industry,,

I’m not saying you have anything to apologise for, I’m saying I don’t understand what point you are trying to make with regard to the ‘Solidair’ mods - you do mention them. Can you please explain again what you are saying as I don’t see any relevance between them and your work experience?

[gwernaffield]

well how can i put this read the 100% feed back , on the pylons, end of conversation ,

[AJSki2fly]

The vibration that gets into the chassis I was referring to is through the metal feet. These are directly coupled the the pylons, which I’m turn are connected to the chassis through the springs. By placing a Gyrodec on a make shift isolation platform made from marble and sorbothane feet I measure a drop of around 50% vibrations reaching the platter when playing music at 85db. Bear in mind my TT sits on a suspended shelf attached to solid wall already and sit 4 feet behind loudspeakers. After I replaced the feet as in the previous post and removed the temporary isolation platform I measured a +50% reduction vibration. I should add that the accelerometer measured most vibration in the vertical axis (up and down) very little in the x and y axis, side to side and back to front.

There are quite a few TT’s out there with out rigger motors, how good or bad they are on the wow or flutter front I have not looked out. However it is well known that careful design needs to be done to avoid platter wobble and bearing issues when out-rigging a motor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YNWaN]

If I am interpreting post #291 correctly, Peter is complaining about an email response that the company ‘Solidair’ made about him. This response was made in a private email with another forum member who appeared to be trying to understand the technical differences between Peter’s ‘Pylon’ mod and the one that Solidaire make.

Looking at both mods it looks to me that the end result of both is more similar than dissimilar. The biggest difference is that the Solidair breaks the suspension down into two specific elements (both are needed or the suspension isolation will be severely compromised) - a magnetic one in the vertical (using opposing magnets) and the lateral makes use of gravity acting on the chassis mass and the rotational moment around the chassis points (this part has no vertical compliance). Peter’s mod effectively combines both of these aspects into one component (a conceptually more elegant solution I feel). Both mods seem to seek to increase suspension damping and limit lateral deflection whilst maintaing some isolation.

I see that post #291 has been post edited to include some reference to myself (though to what end is not clear).

[AJSki2fly]

Looking at both mods it looks to me that the end result of both is more similar than dissimilar. The biggest difference is that the Solidair breaks the suspension down into two specific elements (both are needed or the suspension isolation will be severely compromised) - a magnetic one in the vertical (using opposing magnets) and the lateral makes use of gravity acting on the chassis mass and the rotational moment around the chassis points (this part has no vertical compliance). Peter’s mod effectively combines both of these aspects into one component (a conceptually more elegant solution I feel). Both mods seem to seek to increase suspension damping and limit lateral deflection whilst maintaing some isolation.



From looking at the Solidair design of their pylon suspension I would say IMO this would be unlikely to stop or restrict rotational movement of the chassis as the chassis at the bottom of the replacement supports I believe are free to move. Although it probably does decouple that chassis from the pylons, from a vibrational point of view, to some extent as the springs are removed. How effective this solution as a whole is I cannot say as I have not tried it out.

[YNWaN]

Ah, apologies to all and particularly Peter, I think I now understand. Peter was simply stating his experience. I, on the other hand, have waded in with an attempt to discuss turntable isolation (because this is more my own area of interest).

As Peter points out, irrespective of the technicalities, actual owner feedback has been 100% positive so they must be ‘working’. For many the reasons they work is less interesting, but to me this is precisely the bit that interests me :).

[gwernaffield]

Perhaps you have seen a pendulum bob vibrating back and forth about its equilibrium position. While a pendulum does not produce a sound when it oscillates, it does illustrate an important principle. A pendulum consisting of a longer string vibrates with a longer period and thus a lower frequency. Once more, there is an inverse relationship between the length of the vibrating object and the natural frequency at which the object vibrates. This very relationship carries over to any vibrating instrument - whether it is a guitar string, a xylophone, a pop bottle instrument, or a kettledrum.or turntable chassis ,objects have a natural frequency or set of frequencies at which they vibrate when struck, plucked, strummed or somehow disturbed. The actual frequency is dependent upon the properties of the material the object is made of (this affects the speed of the wave) and the length of the material (this affects the wavelength of the wave). It is the goal of musicians to find instruments that possess the ability to vibrate with sets of frequencies that are musically sounding (i.e., mathematically related by simple whole number ratios) and to vary the lengths and (if possible) properties to create the desired sound

[gwernaffield]

mmmm

[gwernaffield]

i was waiting for you to reply , resonance occurs when two interconnected objects share the same vibrational frequency. When one of the objects is vibrating, it forces the second object into vibrational motion. The result is a large vibration. And if a sound wave within the audible range of human hearing is produced, a loud sound is heard.

[BendBound]

You got it. Your comments I interpreted on vibration control in and around a turntable are spot on. Peter has developed in my opinion the most elegant and effective solution to decoupling the chassis from all that is below it, and addressed the rotational issues between the spinning platter and the chassis. The addition of skateboard feet or in my case another solution deals with some wandering the whole table can do on certain surfaces.

I looked at both Gert Perdersen's set up and that of SolidAir. At the end of the day, I went with Peter's solution. To me it just seemed right from an engineering standpoint. Since I did not try the other options, however, I am really not in a position to comment. I like what I have done. No drilling. No sand. No strings.

[BendBound]

I have actually measured vibrations on the platter using a simple accelerometer before and after making modifications to feet and pylons, and this supports the above as after making the changes the vibrations are lessened dramatically. I used to work in the Wolfson Unit Sound and Vibration Lab many years ago so have some practical experience in this area.

What device are you using, are they costly? I want one!

[YNWaN]

It’s not a competition but quoting the internet (and it’s associated grammar) is not a winning combo. More pertinently, purely stating well established doctrine, does not form a point of view nevermind an argument. Sorry, I’m tired, but if you have no worthwhile technical input to give then don’t kid yourself - Google is not always your friend! If you read what I have written then I am, in general, supportive of that which you have done.

Edit: don’t waste your time waiting for me to reply again.

[AJSki2fly]

Well it may sound silly but it is an iPhone accelerometer app. The accelerometers built into modern mobile phones are surprisingly accurate. Maybe not as accurate as a Brüel and Kerr accelerometer and tape recorder but not far off and it does the job.

You can dump the data to a spreadsheet and then put it on a graph and directly compare before and after, amazing what modern tech can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YNWaN]

I agree, not in any way definitive, but interesting, and relevant, to a degree.

[gwernaffield]

Thank you for your interest and your thoughts.

[BendBound]

Well it may sound silly but it is an iPhone accelerometer app. The accelerometers built into modern mobile phones are surprisingly accurate. Maybe not as accurate as a Brüel and Kerr accelerometer and tape recorder but not far off and it does the job.

You can dump the data to a spreadsheet and then put it on a graph and directly compare before and after, amazing what modern tech can do.


Brilliant! Thank you.

[Marco]

To be fair, Peter has plenty of people who have got sets of them and are all happy. Thats what counts.


Indeed. The 'proof of the pudding', and all that...

Mark, I think you're being a little hard on Peter and making the discussion more confrontational than it need be. I understand that you're interested in the design principles of the Pylons and what makes them work, but could you please be a bit gentler about it and less interrogatory?

You yourself admit that the feedback Peter's had has been 100% positive, so what he's designed must be doing something right. Therefore, let's keep it friendly, and when you're drilling down into the details, avoid things becoming unnecessarily argumentative. Cheers:cool:

Marco.

[TAD12]

Well said Mr. Moderator. I have an Odyssey deck, ( the picture is posted within this thread, ) amongst others, which now sounds great. I know what I like but if you do not like it then so be it. I listen with my brain and ears and not through anyone else. Well done Peter. The thread was labelled "cheap upgrade.....". Job done. T.

[AJSki2fly]

Well said Mr. Moderator. I have an Odyssey deck, ( the picture is posted within this thread, ) amongst others, which now sounds great. I know what I like but if you do not like it then so be it. I listen with my brain and ears and not through anyone else. Well done Peter. The thread was labelled "cheap upgrade.....". Job done. T.

+1

A big thanks to Peter from me for what it’s worth.a special chap and I don’t just mean his pylons.

[gwernaffield]

The Tonearm cable off the sme 309,is held in place with the Michell Clip , or cable tie , take the cable out of it , this is picking up any noise from the TT, the sme cable seems to pick up any vibration near it now ,,and some how support it with a piece of foam ,,to stop it pulling the arm down on one side ,

pete

[33na3rd]

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/56622486_875854436093960_5980328401574035456_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=f44a009601b498337e16d50a0536f616&oe=5D3AAD28

Here's my Gyro SE with Pete's Pylons.

Thank you Peter!

[gwernaffield]

looking great , i hope they give you a lot of pleasure ,,and the deck stays with you for a long time,

just an up date to stop confusion ,, the measurements needed are the 3 holes in the bottom of the chassis and the 3 holes in the top off the chassis,, i have found because the decks may have had the upgraded suspension before the current owner it means the spring retaining washer in the base may be the wrong size ,also had a lot with 3 different size holes,, both top and bottom,,

[gwernaffield]

After 4-5 hours with your pylons on I have to say I’m having a bittersweet experience.
Whilst the Orbe is still better it’s not as black and white..... and that’s messed with my head. My Orbe and it’s arm and cartridge are 4 times the cost of my gyro and arm and cartridge. But they no longer sound 4 times better..... they did before.

a new user of pete's pylons,,

[blake]

After 4-5 hours with your pylons on I have to say I’m having a bittersweet experience.
Whilst the Orbe is still better it’s not as black and white..... and that’s messed with my head. My Orbe and it’s arm and cartridge are 4 times the cost of my gyro and arm and cartridge. But they no longer sound 4 times better..... they did before.

a new user of pete's pylons,,

Have to admit that this thought/question crossed my mind before: How would a Gyro, say with Pete's pylons, the main bearing ball replaced with a ceramic ball and the suspension posts treated with isolating/damping material under the balls compare against a stock Orbe assuming both were using the same arm and cartridge?

My money would be on the tweaked Gyro!!

The good news, at least for the guy with both Gyro & Orbe, is that he can apply the same upgrades/tweaks to the Orbe.

[gwernaffield]

he has a certain competitors pylons in the orbe,, he though the ones i did where just for the gyro ,,and now he wants a set for his orbe,,

[mad-moon]

Have to admit that this thought/question crossed my mind before: How would a Gyro, say with Pete's pylons, the main bearing ball replaced with a ceramic ball and the suspension posts treated with isolating/damping material under the balls compare against a stock Orbe assuming both were using the same arm and cartridge?

My money would be on the tweaked Gyro!!

The good news, at least for the guy with both Gyro & Orbe, is that he can apply the same upgrades/tweaks to the Orbe.

That's a very good question Blake....and I'd say your suspicions were quite correct...however, once the Orbe has the pylon upgrades..it will give the same effect to the Orbe and send it too, to a higer level again ....The pylons are genious...Al..

[gwernaffield]

Hi all i have to put note if you use the ceramic bearing in the main please make sure the deck is earthed, as the ceramic bearing may increase the static on the deck , i have the deck earthed and use an earthed sweep arm, so i never noticed this before ,

[gninnam]

Been using the pylons on my Orbe for a long time (through the various incarnations) and it is now superb in what it delivers sonically.
Not managed to compare it to many other TT's after the change but not bothered as from where it started to now - different league :D

[gwernaffield]

i am happy you are still enjoying them ,, as you know that the cost is lower then it should be with a total loss on the first sets,,and continuing to keep to that was not an option ,, with the machine shop set up fee of £90 per set and then the cost of the run
Michell have changed the sizes of the holes again in 2017 ,,,also there seems to be a lot with 6 different size size holes, 3 top of the chassis and the 3 under the chassis ,, have gone from an average of 34.8 to 33.5 . 33.7 33.2 small size 28.9 ,,to 27.8
it would be easy for me to make them under size, but then the chassis will slip,,the whole point is to stop this with out the use of a secondary device like feet or string ,, or the need to drill the chassis to do that ,,
every set is a one off ,, to fit that specific Gyro /Orbe, and not put together with some string ,,

with regards to who is making them that is a secret ,, they are on sale , through me,,, but a new website will be launched,,
recently i was asked how they work , if i put that i might as well not make them, , there are fans of these and fans of solidair pylons both have different principles,,both go about this in different ways,, Mine from an engineering back ground and i will not comment on the back ground of solidair as i do not know,, and will not leave Derogatory remarks,,about a competitors product ,,
oh and apparently i am a very unhelpful person ,, who is angry ,, LOL ,, on pfm thank you for this and the interest in my product

pete

[gwernaffield]

After reading the comments and many questions , all I can say is this. In my humble opinion I think these Pylons, that I have designed and had machined, are a vast improvement over the oem springs, I do not have any graphs and I do not do misleading reviews, or make any sort of misleading claims, and I cannot answer technically, as to how they work except to say, with the 100% positive feedback, from the people who have invested in them, that they improve the performance of the turntable they are fitted too, to a very high level.

The proof of the pudding, is in the tasting, which has been left to the Turntable owners who have purchased them, from all around the globe. The feedback which has come back, is 100% positive. Every single buyer is delighted, with the results they have, from fitting this pylon upgrade.

They fit the Gyro, Orbe, and Odyseey ,, Gyro 'SE' old and new,, The springs are replaced with 18 0 rings, which are suspended on a very special machined castle nut and a base made by an engineering company to my design.

I have not got any test sheets, to show anyone and will not pretend that I do.

I do not know anyone who will provide a test sheet or a test house to do this.

I rely on my ears and the ears of the many users of my Pylon design, who report back to me with their findings, which as of to date, is100% positive feedback.

At present, you can buy the pylons from True point audio., who also manufacture upgrade parts for pink triangle turntables and SME arms , until we can get a web site up and a trading standards approved ad.

All the very best and thank you all, for your interest and feedback in my pylon design.

Pete

Thank you tad i forgot about the odyssey and i own one lol

[TAD12]

Peter,

Please don't forget The Odyssey. Your pylons and ceramic ball replacements certainly worked on my deck.

Well done. I was a bit sceptical at first, but the WOW factor took over.

A picture of my Odyssey in in this thread somewhere.

Kind regards.

Tad.

[gwernaffield]

thank you for the interest in this product ,

[Marco]

Hi Michael,

Yes, you're correct, but Peter has already paid for a trade account. He's just waiting to come up with a name for the business, with his partner, and then his trade room will be opened, and things will move forward from there:cool:

Marco.

[mad-moon]

Ooo trader...you dark horse....Excellent....best wishes Peter with your venture...I wish you every success...Big Al...

[Pegwill]

Hi Michael,

Yes, you're correct, but Peter has already paid for a trade account. He's just waiting to come up with a name for the business, with his partner, and then his trade room will be opened, and things will move forward from there:cool:

Marco.

How about ‘Pylons R Us’

Good luck Peter - i’m Still enjoying mine

Best Regards

[gwernaffield]

Thanks Big al and bill it still has not got there yet, as long as the Tax is paid,i am happy ,, the real add will be then placed.
The thread has never had a trading name,or will ever have one, Cheap up Grades is meant to help the owners of the Gyro and Orbe their has never been a trading name or a trading address,,



all the best pete

[struth]

peter and michael, will you both cut this out. i will be going through this thread and any posts deemed out of order will be deleted. consider it a warning.
lets move , thanks.

[Marco]

i note that Grant (and also Geoff) have had to step in and deal with a little 'fracas' earlier. Please remember guys that we don't allow 'baggage' from elsewhere (other forums) to spoil discussions here, so leave that stuff where it belongs.

Also, could everyone (especially Michael) please remember that Peter is essentially an official trader here. The only difference is that because he's still to finalise a suitable name to trade under, he's not yet been given the appropriate title, or a dedicated room to use to promote his products.

However, this thread (and any others like it that Peter chooses to post), which will be moved into his trade room in due course, acts as a permitted advert for his products, and his right to promote his new business as a registered trader. Therefore, the stipulated rules on 'Thread Crapping' on trade threads apply here too, as indeed they would if this thread had been posted in the trade room. In future, punitive action, in the form of a week's ban, will be taken against anyone seen to break those rules, which some of the recent (now deleted) posts would've qualified as.

Therefore, please bear that in mind, and from now on let's keep this thread strictly constructive and on-topic. Cheers!:cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

No need for any PMs, Michael. I understand, but clearly there is history between Peter and you, which is causing some aggravation, and so he's not interested in discussing anything with you here, including prices. So please leave it there, respect his wishes, and from now on avoid this thread.

Indeed, any more input from you here will be removed without further notice. Cheers!

Marco.

[gwernaffield]

Dear Marco thank you , ,the problem with pricing is that every set is custom , the price is being dictated by the machine shop,, due to the nature of what michell has done to the holes every set is Custom, and made to the size of the holes given ,,
this has caused a problem with the pricing, if i wait and order more sets the cost comes down , as i do not have to pay the set up cost which is passed on,,, then the problem with the hole sizes, each and every Chassis have different size holes, on some 3 different size holes in the bottom part of the chassis and 3 different size holes in the top,, so now in order to get the cost down and order a full production run of 100 sets
the size will be reduced to a one size fits all,even these will have to be tested first , with the base being 34.2 x 28,2 pre 2013 after 2013 33.7 x 28, michell reduced the hole sizes , but have now in 2017, to a 33.5 x 28, 33.77 , and 33.71 in 2017 ,so no uniformity in the chassis, ,
the problem will continue to rumble on , i have a set coming back the first in 30 sets , These will be used for testing and then destroyed, the reason they were sent back is they dont make the 'speakers disappear ', like the springs,, but they do a lot of other things, as i have said previously i think these are an improvement to the OEM springs, and that is all,,

the owners have been good enough to leave their thoughts and feed back , even the person who is returning them can leave feedback if he wants to,, so i can go forward and people can see that not every thing is rosy , i am a honest person that is all,,

The gentleman who is returning them had problems in fitting them due to the acrylic being out on the plinth,, the cost to him just being the post , back.

i must get the T and c's sorted out ,before any full commercial product is launched on the web, at this moment until that set comes back ,,they will be machined down to one of the sizes above so the loss is not total and used as test sample,

in future if they stay customized/bespoke /tailor made , product , i will not accept them back with out the understanding you have to pay 50% of the set up cost if not %100,, if not canceled with in 14days this is when they will be machined,

hopefully i can sort out the one size fits all and that will not happen ,

i have been testing using a rubber washer on the base to help stop chassis from twisting ,and not use the ptfe washer , reduce the size of the base,, so it will fit every deck out there,,

so i am sorry i just cannot answer what is the price now, the kit price is set ,, through true point audio..which is now on hold,, i just cannot keep absorbing the loss,like i have been in the past ,, and continue to do so,

kind regards
peter

[Gazjam]

Having dealt with Peter in the early incarnations of his Gyro upgrades, can absolutely say he’s coming from a good place.
He’s wanting to pass on his hard earned work and benefit to others, which is what AOS is all about.

Contribution like this is to be commended imo.

[mad-moon]

+1. Peter has worked hard on these upgrades..he has my full support.. Not only is he a clever chap...he is a gentleman too...

[gninnam]

+2
Feel Peters' pain as he had a good idea which we helped him fine tune and get a good product only to be knocked back by poor specs and standards by the manufacturer!
I have never had any issues dealing with Peter during the creation and final incarnation of his design and it is a shame the way it has ended up.
Hoping he manages to sort out a solution as he does deserve it.

[blake]

Without question. Peter deserves some very serious praise for the development of the Pylons as well as making them available at a very reasonable price in terms of the performance they deliver; even with the recent increase in price, they are a bargain.

On top of that, as mentioned, he's a pleasure to deal with and bends over backwards to accommodate and make purchasers happy. Clearly the issue of non-standard sizes, etc. with the Michell product has complicated things somewhat for him. Seems to me he has gone the extra mile for everyone that's purchased.

Sadly, it is the nature of the internet (and particularly audio forums) that there are always detractors, and in many, many cases they are people that have no experience with the product or item they're slagging.

Pete's product, service & integrity gets the absolute top & highest rating from me. Another happy owner from the other side of the pond, and I know that the numbers of us over here are growing having had communication with a few of them.

[gwernaffield]

Thank you all for the above comments , i hope to have every thing sorted one way or another, i have put them on hold for now,, i have to try a solution to the holes out first ,, with the help of some of the members , so no measuring will be needed,to help sales,,
have a happy Easter
pete

[Simes_pep]

I initially tried the Ceramic (Black Si3N4) bearing balls in the main bearing, and liked the sound over the original stainless steel, which is over 15 years in place, as my ORBE was bought in 2000 and has the AC Motor & QC control.
But since this was the start of a set of changes, I tried the Delrin bearing balls to the suspension towers, but also fitted the Solid Air Pylons, which I had from before Christmas. Took some time to get the height correct on my Orbe, as the motor has a top piece which overhangs the motor unit to match the suspended sub-platter. There is a cut out ring on the motor housing, you need to ensure that the sub-platter is in the middle of, otherwise it bangs against the sides of the motor housing.
Then tried the Delrin bearing ball in the turntable bearing too, to match the suspension - all good, improved soundstage and dynamics. Tried the suspension tower covers and the soundstage collapsed - so off with those.
Then tried the Ceramic Si3N4 back in the main bearing again & further improvements over the Delrin.

So have now a set of Alumina Oxide Ceramic Balls (White) to try in both the main bearing & maybe the suspension posts, however there was a settling period with the changes in suspension.

Certainly worthy of experimentation.

Will dig the proper camera out and post some photos of my deck & support structure.

Does anyone know what changes where introduced in the Orbe SE-R?

Thanks, Simon

[gwernaffield]

as far as i can tell they have changed the bearing to ceramic , the plinth is composite now,, , the motor was adjusted in height to accomodate the changes to the plinth , pictures on the hifi lounge,,
http://hifilounge.co.uk/michell-engineering-se-r-turntable

cheers
pete

[Simes_pep]

as far as i can tell they have changed the bearing to ceramic , the plinth is composite now,, , the motor was adjusted in height to accomodate the changes to the plinth , pictures on the hifi lounge,,
http://hifilounge.co.uk/michell-engineering-se-r-turntable

cheers
pete

Do you know what type of Ceramic in the bearing? And a composite platter?

Will try giving Steve Roland a call - we spoke about replacement lids for my Orbe, belts & my ISObase.

[gwernaffield]

i was told it was the white alu ox , the platter is still the same it was the plinth that changed , i do not think steve will sell you one as it is may be a special like they did the odyssey .only so many made,

[Simes_pep]

i was told it was the white alu ox , the platter is still the same it was the plinth that changed , i do not think steve will sell you one as it is may be a special like they did the odyssey .only so many made,

Ok, looking again at the pictures posted https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47485-World%92s-First-Michell-Engineering-Orbe-SE-R-Build! it looks like it is a SE spider on a custom ISObase with the holes for the motor and under the arm.
I have the full double plinth of the ORBe on a rectangular ISObase with tender cups under the ISObase tenderfeet.
So will need to allocate some time for swapping the Black Ceramic to the White then.

What’s the recommendation for the bearing ball in the Suspension posts? I can’t adjust the height of the sub-frame against the motor, due to the top cross section on the ORBE motor housing, and the cut out collar.

[gwernaffield]

it should take the ceramic white ones in the towers, because you are using the same size bearing ball now,, with a orbe it does not have the drive groves like the gyro ,, everything will work with some adjustment if you are going the orbe-se-r way you will have to put the motor pod on a block of wood or rubber to get the height unless you have a machine shop near to to make a spacer but the cost out ways the gains,, as you can see from the picture of the motor on mine ,due to the 4 spiders and a plinth i have had the base made bigger in diameter and in height ,, then added a bronze spacer to get the height ,the motor now weighs 3kg , it also looks like the tube on the motor for the orbe se-r does not have the lip , like the normal orbe,
https://6qlyjq.db.files.1drv.com/y4mkfxDXfdUtOWPVnZILo-hyTjANK2iIdM1cz4XEQhyIwFp0gYB9Y3YEFGVXVxZvA8b4VzLW 9m9uSkyenvGfNGfHXsty0HuzO4vgEhN6xacLv4QXSZSI81pUPO N8DwPU89hGlMsLMBRwJM-d5CdlapQjsYiMzOOd-0D7xp2pxeq_bVZNkQcIWd6M2e0pdbJl552ipkNUtRcK5jq79-GzJGxig?width=1000&height=750&cropmode=none

[gwernaffield]

i have been asked the best way to set the gyro up,, with out any Mods ,you have to follow the Michell instructions,, i am not sure how the Cam effect works on the old style adjuster ,, on the new style the spring base acts like a cam centering the motor pod
and tightening the belt ,, the Michell bounce i think happens when the motor pod is clear of the chassis after getting the platter level ,,with in the spec that Michell has set out in the instructions,,
you will need to do the same with the pylons,, accept there is no lateral movement ,, just vertical,, they still should be the same height ,, if you have installed the 3 pads in the suspension ,,you may have to use the bottom drive groove in the platter to keep the height of the belt in the correct position ,, that is all,, or add a rubber pad to the base of the motor ,,the same as above ,,
in doing the pylons no one has said if the o-rings supplied have been too short ,or too long ,,

keep well
pete

[mad-moon]

i have been asked the best way to set the gyro up,, with out any Mods ,you have to follow the Michell instructions,, i am not sure how the Cam effect works on the old style adjuster ,, on the new style the spring base acts like a cam centering the motor pod
and tightening the belt ,, the Michell bounce i think happens when the motor pod is clear of the chassis after getting the platter level ,,with in the spec that Michell has set out in the instructions,,
you will need to do the same with the pylons,, accept there is no lateral movement ,, just vertical,, they still should be the same height ,, if you have installed the 3 pads in the suspension ,,you may have to use the bottom drive groove in the platter to keep the height of the belt in the correct position ,, that is all,, or add a rubber pad to the base of the motor ,,the same as above ,,
in doing the pylons no one has said if the o-rings supplied have been too short ,or too long ,,

keep well
pete

The o-rings are the perfect length Peter...

[gwernaffield]

Thanks Alan for letting me know,, all the best pete

[gwernaffield]

with regards to the orbe se-r ,, i think i have been led down the garden path by Michell with regards to the bearing ball being used ,, i have been contacted by a Orbe Se R who says it is just the std ball,, or possibly a tungsten ball,, the information i was given By Michell was it was a ceramic bearing ,,The gentleman has now fitted a set of Pete's pylons and is happy with the out come,, on his ORBE SE-R ,, i hope he will do a review /feedback later on in the week which i will publish ,, in the mean time, i am sending 5 sets out that are one size fits all for test ,,so i can get them made

until that is sorted these are still a custom fit will be made and the holes in the chassis will need to be measured ,,

just had an email with regards to the bearing ball in the orbe se-r ,, they now say the std ball is fitted ,, due to the static they were getting when the ceramic beraing was fitted,,to the orbe se -r ,, i have to say i am not surprised that michell have changed their minds, with the cost being higher on the ceramic ,, and the different size holes,,

pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi Peter.
Here’s a brief email about my recent turntable changes and tweaks.

Please bear with me as I’m not a big “audiophile speak” person.

Last year my turntable from a gyro se to an Orbe SE-r. .
The change was obviously immense.
Then I changed the pylons for the solidair ones. I was instantly impressed. Bass was bigger, more thwack, soundstage wider and deeper.
Then I got new hifi racks so I could run both turntables side by side.

While the Orbe is a bigger more powerful sound I always loved the speed and fun of the gyro.
I decided to upgrade the pylons on the gyro because of the improvements I got when I did on the Orbe.
I’ve always loved handmade/artisan or bespoke products, when I saw you making pylons I thought I’d give them a try.
To be honest I was put off when I had to measure the hole sizes…. Not only could I not use a ruler I had to borrow a bloody engineering tool. ����
Anyway…. I did and they arrived. Spot on fit.

Now here the thing… the changes in the gyro were huge. Far bigger than I got on the Orbe.
Before the sound between the two was always black and white. As it should be the Orbe and it’s bits being about 4-5times the cost.
When I put your pylons on it narrowed the gap by a lot…. So much so I was pxxxxd off that they weren’t as night/day now… the Orbe was still far better but the huge gap between the two had gone.
I decided to order another set of yours and see what would happen.
All I can tell you is the difference between the solidair ones and yours is massive.
Everything again is bigger wider deeper, more snap on bass notes.
The gap between the 2 turntables has been restored. It’s back to night/day…. It has to be your pylons… 100%.
I’m so pleased with them… you definitely know your stuff and I’d consider them an essential part of any Michell turntable.
I’m not going to rubbish the solidair ones, I was pleased with what they did, BUT…. I have to say yours blow them out of the xxxxxxxx water..

Thanks again.
Kind regards Gary. Orbe se-r owner ,,,,

Custom Version made to measure

[mad-moon]

Excellent Gary...I'm pleased you are enjoying both of your turntables, the way they should sound..These pylons are certainly a marvelous piece of kit..happy listening...Al..

[struth]

i think this should be taken to pm...thanks

[gwernaffield]

i recently had a question on static ,which i asked Jonathan Nye about he suggested to use a continuity tester and check the earths,,, make sure all the earths were in contact with the Chassis , the arm board /arm and bearing spindle,, i had removed the paint under the chassis where the screw comes through ,, this gave a better earth contact ,,,because the paint was acting like an insulator,, then checked the Arm board earth to the spindle,,, with a ceramic bearing fitted ,, to make sure the earth loop was completed ,,,it was,, so no problems with the earths to the phono stage and out down to the Russ Andrews Rf block and out to the earth in the house,, i then checked the TransRotor sweep arm that has an earth ,i was in for a surprise,, although the body was earthed the arm it self was not ,, i think this was due to the clear coat that was on the sweep arm, or the hole it sat in having some thing left in the hole after production,, i had to drill the hole deeper ,, Tap the hole under the top of the balance part of the arm , this now is earthed,, so no problems with static ,, even with the ceramic bearing ,,
pete

[Macca]

I'm sure posterity will be fascinated.

[struth]

Out of curiosity, why is that? Theres been some quite imo libellous statements made by Peter about Solidairs products on this thread, so surely that would mean open free discussion and if wanted, a public defence by Solidair?

you also require to have your name posted in the box provided..

[gwernaffield]

after looking at the base of the spring holder i need help with a small but significant cheap upgrade,, i need to know the inner size of that ,, where the suspension adjuster goes through,, the one i have is 17.96 ,, to 17,97 ,, in diameter ,,
the base of the spring holder hole only ,,
https://ftcy3w.db.files.1drv.com/y4m6V7koBEaRrQYfQDL06DV6Un-XgiOYUcH_E8Lm84PEgCBxJnfnS45ZCB4_BWjDEK5tyPQsxCVCU q91Al4C0x1FlhdzcPg3tXjjho7qvPf6Tokd-8SypQMI-yNt6UtpXjlTzkxSExqB0dYodTVCqoU5wLcDNkeEIL7AcJHb3Ea B_Slsipfu0zMlvz7tbU9lZxZxAaN3HjdqAtI3KF3_c2W9Q?wid th=1000&height=750&cropmode=nonehttps://fdcy3w.db.files.1drv.com/y4mCZGNz5QXNW4dWfY__q5iLBVLrceilDBbqgNw_iKDEmUGJBM k2thCva8uqt08dcjSbiO9SB7P0DGrOfNFogNXeXgg9c7ehNFUV Yp3Cf_6EyQ3Y9Ml1kYXf48sI5bB1FtHWzF5fg9oljMu5coKlkh 4y7s_L6xsTWlvPJTopFYHlJLO0iN1Kmw8aEthKQEJ0oIqK6ywA TLPZ7lXXtn5iI6QjQ?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

The design uses the existing Michell Suspension pylons with a quick but cheap way to help stop wow,

pete

[gwernaffield]

and you will only need 2 cost with post off eBay will be about £25 ,., so you could say these are pete's suspension supports to go with the rest of the cheap upgrades,, they will be made to order and shipped when ready ,, no o-rings attached just the small delrin bush ,, which any one can make,,
pete

[gwernaffield]

The threads on a Michell deck are as follows,, the m6 for the stub adjuster , the half inch bsf for the feet ,, the bug bear is the adjuster is a M10 but which one??? there are 3 ,, M10 x1 M10 x 1,25 M10x.5 ,lucky i phoned Michell to find out M10 x 1
The threads on the bearing , to stop you damaging the thread on the top spindle it is a 3/8 BSF,,you would need 2 half nuts to remove the spindle,, please do not use a pair of mole grips,, The top thread on the Orb is a multi start thread M6 ,, ( this may be incorrect as it is very hard to check with out the correct tools) ,
the thread that holds the arm board is M5 ,,
there is one more on the old suspension it is 3/8 bscy,,
how the castle nut came about ,, on here ,,, no were else,, or the base,, they were done after trying to avoid the hooks,, holes, etc ,, i was asked could i not make the pylons( a design principle word ) accepted for use by every one, in the world,,
after several hours i sat down with a friend and we went through how to avoid the holes,, etc and the suggestion of the slots were born after some large ciders and dodging my mates tractor ,,

the problem was the cost ,, how to do the slots,, i asked several companies, to do them but the price scared the skin off my wallet,, so i bought a bench drill and a cheap compound Chinese table,, now how would you do the slots that you needed .buy an expensive dividing head ,, or do a quick and cost effective way of doing the slots, which i did ,, using a tooling Pin the blank was loaded and a printed version was used as the template ,,

Follow the template and use a end mill to do the slots all were done like this until i could not longer do them ,, the rest have been done by the engineering company and audio company that i trust to do a very good job,,

The pete's performance pylon kit was born, with bearings off eBay ( 4,50 each ) sorbothane used on some parts that is expensive ,, the bearing bush that is about £2 ,,
all made the kit ,, which is only available through Truepointaudio,, or Truepoint precision engineers,, the design has again changed today with the addition of a flange off one of the members who i asked to look at this , with clear eyes and head, to be able to produce the kit with a std size, after the last set went to the UAE ,, the smallest ever ,, there was a concern that the base would pull threw the hole if they get smaller ,,,Michell has the wright to change there design on the deck and have done,,

i have had to do the same to the bases,, due to Michell design changes,,
There is another design being used by 2 members and my self ,, on test ,, for the future ,, the super base and nut are not quite there ,, and will not be sold for months to come,,

in the meantime there is a STD version no measurement needed will give about 85% of the custom ones, price is set by true point on them, which will NOT have the bearings ,, extra o-rings,,etc ,, a quality product , the main difference will be the fit will be a little bit looser than the custom ones which will have all the parts needed ,, that all the reviews have been raving about ,,and will not reduce the wow as much ,,
i don't own the name it was given to them by the users,, i did not set the price it is Truepoint and he is happy at the margin ,, being machine shop and retailer ,, with help from the forum users this product has changed for the better, i thank the, first testers of the red o-rings,, and testers of the first slotted version , alot of other helpers all have benefited on the price and the hope they continue to help ,, with ways to improve them ,,

i thank the designer and RR engineer for the latest fag packet drawing ,that is being built ,, as the std version,, the help all from AOS forum users,, ,, and even when it was not thought of as help From THE Chornicles who asked if i had the IP ,, well at the time i did not but after him having a go i paid the £60 and got the certificate so no one can copy the slots,, or the design unless they have helped on this forum so i thank him for that ,,,, Ynxx helped in one way ,, asking about the nut which forced me to look at redesigning the nut ,, once that was done , it was full steam a head,, so i thank him for that ,,

the above small spring stop you can get made,, on eBay should be no more than the £25 ,, the diameter should be machined to the same hole diameter it goes into the hole being 10mm , the flange 2 mm thick , the length of the inner bush needs to cover 2 coils in the spring ,,
this forces the spring to be straight up and not lean to one side,, the only draw back is you have to move the motor ,,
atb pete
Pete’s Lattice Truss Suspension upgrade for a JA Mitchell turntable.( mikes new name for these,,) but mine is pete's performance pylons, which use a lattice truss design system

[gwernaffield]

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Michell power supply internal pictures one NC never connected and one the standard with all the smoothing capacitors ,, please don't ask me how they work i do not know,, these are off my Orca Nc,, and the Delphini dual mono 4box,, phono stage,, they were sold as the large power supplies, with the michell /trichord kit ,, Trichord Research who i am grateful too for upgrading the 2 power supplies to NC for use on the Phono stage ,,

[gwernaffield]

https://rtwxgg.db.files.1drv.com/y4m1WlgUZjwCO2Y5brDzdwJkvNuhTi1cfyM_NYZx6P9JkLCTDV sieSTKY__HB_YcfW70VMMhitH2dBcWq_HZUaawAH8JGYvBL1gy AhsyYmi8jwDOX7M-fcrTm1XG7HSgwWMh3OWlyzMCan0dvmP1mkCH_FpLQ1jXPUasVS rfF8dKcXrG69dXD16TdxqIGdk-rhPuXgFQsJbmo4Ll3HLkaq-KA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

orca pre amp internals ,

[gwernaffield]

https://tjuwdg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mQC0ygewUpF_P-HZFvy4irldt5lFCw6Doe8nr7i_QXIElCKUkf3wfXXEFffjwgbw MkC_kXCQJOzchL6JZtCyxqAgwkMkXGCJtlAI7M_1eS90PRgyH3 no7VAKjz9_XWVoStNnxMGxWcKTBlPG99Ex5KJn4lebOA8eBZ97 CbiqKXG7pLfCfFtmPr3waqIRX-CEVSs47VBZEAx4h77ecD9vfbg?width=600&height=450&cropmode=none

delphini phono pre amp ,, internal dual mono 4 box

[gwernaffield]

spoken to jonathan nye they went back to the steel ball,, as it is their design and can do what they want,, i respect that ,, every part of the deck is there design ,, each part is assembled with care and then shipped , the support has been great ,, the help has been the same,, i hope it will continue,,

The use of the J A Michell name and their names for the decks are prohibited,, they own the Names For their decks,, it must be made clear that the Pete's Performance Pylons are made BY Truepoint Engineering and audio as an after market upgrade intended for use on J A MICHELL Suspended Turntables,, J A MICHELL DO NOT MAKE THEM have had no input to complete the design just to confirm the thread was a M10 x1

atb
pete

[gwernaffield]

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ATB
pete

[gwernaffield]

pete's performance pylons use a Lattice Truss Suspension System is now available made By True point engineering and audio,, as an after market upgrade for JA Mitchell ORB And Giro turntables. A truss is a structure that takes advantage of the inherent stability and weight distribution of a triangle. In my LTSS, o-rings are employed to create just such a suspension, giving the system substantially lateral as well as vertical stability, while allowing for perfect balance alignment. Ever since the first truss structures were employed in Ancient Egypt and across the entire Roman Empire, this structure has become integral to modern architecture. We have proudly copied a proven structure design to improve the performance of the JA Michell ORB and Giro ,turntable's as an aftermarket modification by Truepoint Engineering and Audio


atb
peter

[gwernaffield]

please note these are shipped with NBR o-rings, you can upgrade them if you want to ,, O-rings come in different compounds different strengths,, the size is 28.5 x 2mm for the gyro,se odyssey ,, 70 duro ,,,
the orb i put thicker o rings on 29.5 x 2.5 or 30x 2.5,, to allow for the weight ,, they are shipped with the std version to help keep the cost down ,, o rings do perish over time and will need to be changed,, when needed,, if you need more just PM me they will only be the NBR ones your receive for the actual cost ,, no more added the springs on the gyro and orb need to be changed when a service is done,,

atb
pete

[mad-moon]

Great stuff Peter...a wonderful design which works so so well....the o-rings you sent me are perfect and no problem if they do need to be changed at some point...but I envisage good longevity...and the cost to replace them should that time come will only be coppers anyway...atb Peter...Al..

[gwernaffield]

Pete’s performance Pylons with Lattice Truss Suspension System a quality product available at Truepoint audio ,Truepoint precision engineers,, price starts from £130 to £200 custom,,full kits,, with all the parts you need to bring the best out of your J A Michell ORB and GIRO Turntable the custom kit below,, with all the part needed, the std version will not have the extra parts, just the suspension parts and o-rings,,
cost of the custom kit £200 ,, cost of Standard £130,, no bearings or pads or extra o-rings in the std set ,,
made by a quality engineering precision company ,,, In the UK ,,
https://eddvdw.db.files.1drv.com/y4mDiGSDm4Bxie5k5mES6Wt8IE4WN-dMHv7zG1FLg8dsKfHk3p575PsTlXOmONLmq7hj56CYUjLmwnVB 0Mz7WjWs_V_S-0d_HxtT8YchmRgR8Bv3eVL5gdpFqAQZnEULp6lJTiocRm1juzZ etojyDTBTRv7m2i-zo4c99f8aPFdXimWzAfxRsvGbY7bRK9yJxtWf91qPSbbYNn0Ti 3Q6zZgog?width=993&height=666&cropmode=none

[gwernaffield]

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https://3mkuba.db.files.1drv.com/y4mXrfMnP1I-RETjlyFYdTauspLy8n1HBSsv6qY3KHARV6t-Fwxcb0_BdwLuctKjGI6fq0mXkJtc6ZTt5_2T275bcRtF1pMK2X 4PzJ6uUkAix_lp1f2cyS9e_MmDLViSYOAfeGxuzRQPCHpLoYfF ZcjtuAaPBBW8A5-lPy6OLWyk5dB7xN36Vu--4yBP15_NrmZDJPQSHpO_tp5GB7SqIQkQA?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none

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Orbe SE-R ,, spot the upgrade,,

The use of the J A Michell name and their names for the decks are prohibited,, they own the Names For their decks,, it must be made clear that the Pete's Performance Pylons are made BY Truepoint Engineering and audio as an after market upgrade intended for use on J A MICHELL Suspended Turntables,, J A MICHELL DO NOT MAKE THEM have had no input to complete the design just to confirm the thread was a M10 x1

[gwernaffield]

the reason for the above was i did not want to upset J A MICHELL , who asked that i made it clear they have nothing to do with the aftermarket suspension ,, which i have done after asking for their guidance,, the name's of the turntable they own ,, and are very protective on how they are used,, as i will need to buy products off them in the future,,,

[gwernaffield]

https://3mjj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4mkqUkWqETiHU0fdWNyR9k_83DHvl41v8lfgn7rhlB8hSobXQ CVfGWJzVKoVt_8fmXXM7unmKOEsPdeZz0Dx79_Y-gTRgO9hN3Hpoz-U2E5XtKK72yrHD0QDR9QTRktr8Fri9yhWMu2ikqS46IHbpUiKN 4OkzKulgnmfAq7Sw-WrJxnUxqKBC659XXG4JOeurAq7IczxiJmJN1gk2Ci1i6Tw?wid th=640&height=480&cropmode=none
Gyro Fitted with Pete's suspension , a fine Peter Riggle woody arm , From Oregon USA,
https://32jj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4mO9lmjs7s9vXodB5FyDX9xImHEMeuSTTFGb0uF2tAiMzUULv 8pn_PL3kJcFnJ_ckonL7K1EbXXb1K37lnGQ1zSboELAaf2TqI_ k540WNOvrclBFF8ZYtfKRhIP8MQDruR0WhipdeqVJHAK-bnJGVysA_rGYSEg06ij5j3ZqaHzwFhZy2pndELYr94f71ClaYW 7shDu1G-fUGTW12OnhayfA?width=640&height=480&cropmode=none
https://4wjj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4mgGVOC-wZHDZJJ_qvy5ZjmYglVVoB4Oua28nta6MP9GFDrhC68tNS1yRn TV0zJllvVxWjfZK7uQqnZcHPbYubhXY5S93lE7BnTbUq_X4hgE tZobjbKYyT6VS0aeTKUkkIIiv2bh7gW1TnteCGVHjhmrlA390N 7uAJc2zciuZw2cohgPIYmAVpZ3C6NHgXgWtCMx7uNdin_y1rpr VF9CD3pw?width=640&height=480&cropmode=none
pete

[gwernaffield]

The price , the standard version is £130 with out extra o-rings , Bearing's and ptfe washers, sorbothane pads,, etc , and will only be in a one size fits all,,

with the custom made ones having the full kit above,, also made to measure , parts,, with the need to measure the holes,,,£200

pete's performance pylons made for use on the Michell Gyrodec and Orbedec by Truepoint engineering as a aftermarket upgrade to replace the oem springs,,


pete

all prices are plus post ,, which is looked at day by day ,, we post all around the world,,

[Steve Allen]

Picking up on what Pete has mentioned regarding the ‘O’ Rings, I raised this topic with him as a concern for users in the medium/longer term of ownership. What users need to be aware of is the Rings are being deployed to perform a function they were not designed for, the Rings typically are a seal for fluid and air, and when installed sit in a groove to prevent the Ring from moving, but more importantly to control the deformation of the Ring cross section to ensure the Ring ‘seals’ over a reasonable length of time.

Stating the obvious, all Rings will fail at some point; however, users should understand the failure mode process to avoid potential damage to their turntable.

All Rings degrade from day 1 of usage, what drives the degradation is the environment they are working in i.e. highly corrosive fluid, temperature, etc. Within a relatively short space of time, the Rings will ‘set’ but still function (seal) which is why the groove housing the Ring is so important.

The Pylon Rings will also ‘set’ but will still function, however, the next stage of Ring degradation is to go brittle/hard and then snap, and that is the concern I have, how long will it be before the Rings reach the point when failure is imminent?

I notice in some of the earlier posts that some owners preferred to leave the suspension covers off as they liked the ‘industrial’ element of the design, personally, I would encourage owners to leave the covers on, the reason being dust, and UV will accelerate Ring degradation.

I am not criticising Pete’s design (I purchased a set for myself) but merely wish to make owners aware that maintenance/servicing is required on a regular basis to prevent a disaster. I would suggest that every 3 months (minimum) compliance of the Rings are checked, if they have gone hard, replacement of all the Rings should be done ASAP, as the rotational torque (wow and flutter) coupled with the mass of the sub-chassis will likely snap the Rings in the horizontal plane!!!

I have suggested to Pete that it may be worth Blue Point conducting some trials with higher spec Rings to minimise the risk of a failure, IMHO, the increased costs of higher specification Rings would be a price worth paying, aerospace quality Rings is what I would be considering as an alternative.

Finally, Pete’s design is not flawed, SME have exactly the same problem with their turntables, which is probably why they use a very expensive Ring material for their ‘pylon’ which I believe is reinforced through the centre of the Ring with fibre.

I hope this helps?

[mad-moon]

Picking up on what Pete has mentioned regarding the ‘O’ Rings, I raised this topic with him as a concern for users in the medium/longer term of ownership. What users need to be aware of is the Rings are being deployed to perform a function they were not designed for, the Rings typically are a seal for fluid and air, and when installed sit in a groove to prevent the Ring from moving, but more importantly to control the deformation of the Ring cross section to ensure the Ring ‘seals’ over a reasonable length of time.

Stating the obvious, all Rings will fail at some point; however, users should understand the failure mode process to avoid potential damage to their turntable.

All Rings degrade from day 1 of usage, what drives the degradation is the environment they are working in i.e. highly corrosive fluid, temperature, etc. Within a relatively short space of time, the Rings will ‘set’ but still function (seal) which is why the groove housing the Ring is so important.

The Pylon Rings will also ‘set’ but will still function, however, the next stage of Ring degradation is to go brittle/hard and then snap, and that is the concern I have, how long will it be before the Rings reach the point when failure is imminent?

I notice in some of the earlier posts that some owners preferred to leave the suspension covers off as they liked the ‘industrial’ element of the design, personally, I would encourage owners to leave the covers on, the reason being dust, and UV will accelerate Ring degradation.

I am not criticising Pete’s design (I purchased a set for myself) but merely wish to make owners aware that maintenance/servicing is required on a regular basis to prevent a disaster. I would suggest that every 3 months (minimum) compliance of the Rings are checked, if they have gone hard, replacement of all the Rings should be done ASAP, as the rotational torque (wow and flutter) coupled with the mass of the sub-chassis will likely snap the Rings in the horizontal plane!!!

I have suggested to Pete that it may be worth Blue Point conducting some trials with higher spec Rings to minimise the risk of a failure, IMHO, the increased costs of higher specification Rings would be a price worth paying, aerospace quality Rings is what I would be considering as an alternative.

Finally, Pete’s design is not flawed, SME have exactly the same problem with their turntables, which is probably why they use a very expensive Ring material for their ‘pylon’ which I believe is reinforced through the centre of the Ring with fibre.

I hope this helps?

A good post Steve...I have been testing these pylons for a long time now, watching in particular the o-rings with vigilance, as this is the only, albeit a very small one, weak point, where the Pylons are concerned. The rings are holding very well, retaining their elasticity. Initially over the first few weeks, I had to adjust them as the chassis did sink a little due to a small amount of stretching, as the o-rings settled, but beyond this point there hasn't been any problems. I will of course keep my eye on them for the inevitable, which you have mentioned. There are 6 o-rings per pylon however and find it extremely unlikely, that all six are going to fail at once, which could be considered an early warning system. I like the idea of the o-rings with the inner core being fibre, stating the obvious, They are the safety net so to speak, in the event of the rubber failing..

[gwernaffield]

HI all as I said I had to draw a line on the o-rings due to cost I use NBR , it was to make them accessible to users where the O-rings can be cheap enough to replace,, SME are made in house ,the cost of which is between £8 -9 ,when I looked the other day ,, Sme using a damper,,, I do not no anything else, only what I have read on the Internet ,I have never seen how they are attached, or want to take it any further ,, it is a turntable I just have to dream about ,,

The 6 O rings came about after using 3 , then 4 and then 6 , the amount is limited by the size of the Nut,, Users wanting to put the cover back onto them,, all have a bearing on how many can be used ,slots or hole's you would need to make the top nut bigger , but then you are limited to the way the base fits ,, the 6 making them stable and if one or 2 break nothing will happen ,

i did try thicker o-rings but the deck was very solid also if they are thicker than 3 mm the base may be come unstable, and the same aging process, Michell Recommend the springs be changed on a service ,

I will try and find the cost effective way to upgrade the o-rings with a fiber core, some things you just cannot get in the UK ,, if you know of a source that I can buy them from at a reasonable price , please let me know,,
I did try silicone o-rings but the stretch was too great , and they snap easy , one thing you could try is to place a sorbothane washer were the felt one sits, this would take a bit of pressure as well as any stray frequencies /noise off the bottom of the adjuster ,
possibly change to VITON o rings, but will double check the cost , in the morning , I have left the choice upto the user ,due to the cost involved, and availability in the country of use

NBR It provides a good balance of desirable working properties including low compression set, high tensile strength, and high abrasion resistance.Key Use(s):

Oil resistant applications of all types Low temperature military uses. Off-road equipment. Automotive, marine, aircraft fuel systems. Can be compounded for FDA applications.
But every thing deteriorates over time regardless of what it is made off , even springs will bend out of spec , the o-rings are just a service item the same as the oil and the springs,

Thank you Steve and Alan ,

all the very best pete

[YNWaN]

If the O-rings are neoprene they will degrade - if left in the light they will degrade quickly and become brittle and perish (this could take weeks to a few months), if in the dark it will take more time. If the rings are made from silicone they will largely avoid this problem but will have entirely different durometric qualities.

[walpurgis]

If the O-rings are neoprene they will degrade - if left in the light they will degrade quickly and become brittle and perish (this could take weeks to a few months), if in the dark it will take more time. If the rings are made from silicone they will largely avoid this problem but will have entirely different durometric qualities.

I made neoprene 'O' ring suspension for one of my decks years ago. They actually lasted a year or two. Cheap and easy to replace though.

[gwernaffield]

The o-rings are NBR , Acrylonitrile-butadiene rubber (nitrile) but any help in this is always welcome, which will help other users,

[walpurgis]

The o-rings are NBR , Acrylonitrile-butadiene rubber (nitrile) but any help in this is always welcome, which will help other users,

Could be. It was over twenty years ago and I can't recall.

[gwernaffield]

there are several designs out there All use different ways, Of getting the deck to work , the Spring stopper leaves the spring and base in place, one which is a very simple way of stopping the chassis from moving ,,,
the design I have done stops the twist off the chassis , one which I don't understand how this affects the sound in the first place,,, other than the reduction in wow and flutter , the deck now having a sold lateral point , I assume to leave the belt tight ,, out of all of this the o-rings have been the least problem ,
with the base and the holes sizes being different sizes,, with the cavite the O rings are a service part , will need changing , no one has forced any one to try or buy them,,, they are just in my opinion better than the oem springs,, and after 3 years of using

them I am happy,, to say that , not everything I have done has been placed on cheap up grades for the michell gyro ,,,thank you for the help and input it is always welcomed,

pete

[mad-moon]

That's it exactly Peter...I believe it has already been a well established fact, that the o-rings are service items and at some point...the o-rings will need replaced...of course they will. all materials degrade over time, especially if they are carrying any sort of weight or are under some sort of stress...I haven't changed the o-rings on my deck as yet and don't expect to, for quite some time and the cost of replacements is minimal. A nice new, fresh set of rings, a few small adjustments and Bob's your uncle...I don't see any problem..the huge improvements to my deck outweigh the little cost of a new set of o-rings...As for them failing, there is six on each pylon and again I will point out, what are the chances of six o-rings per pylon, all failing together....next to nil...I've tried all kinds of materials for the o-rings, even trying our lasses hair bobbles..the NBR are by far the best option, for the stability, the damping factors and the shock absorbig effect...OK NBR rings with the fibre cor, is an interesting concept, but the cost is too high

[Steve Allen]

Alan,
I totally agree with your comments, especially the fact that the NBR Rings are not going to fail anytime soon, and Yes, replacement is cheap and simple, my main concern, was that some owners may not appreciate there is a maintenance regime to be carried out on a reasonably regular basis, to ensure the worst case scenario does not occur.

Whilst it is highly unlikely all 6 Rings will fail at the same time, if one should fail, the remaining Rings will fail sequentially very quickly, due to the stress loads being transferred, hence my comment about replacement of the entire sets. As you quite rightly mention the price of the Rings is very low, and is not an issue, for me it is about being vigilant.

Interesting that you have used Rings of different materials, I would imagine that you would get slightly different sonic results, that’s one of the things I like about Pete’s design, is that if you were so inclined, you could introduce tweaks at very low risks/costs i.e. different materials, different lengths, and cross section, all of which would alter the sonic characteristics to an owners preference.

I had a browse through numerous Ring manufacturers yesterday, and as you are probably aware, there are many suppliers out there (particularly in the USA) who have all manner of ‘O’ Rings with good well documented supporting information to assist making a selection, at the end of the day though, you pay your money and make your choice, I do feel it would enhance the design pedigree, if Pete/Blue Point did some trials with different Rings to understand the sonic benefits, and then offer the Rings as an up-grade path/option to potential customers. Upgrade options is good for business!!!

[gwernaffield]

hi Steve I got as far as I could afford to do the o-rings, with viton , NBR , Silicone ,, the silicone work well , but when they stretch any hint of a cut they just snap , the viton were just too expensive, the NBR just seem to fit the bill at this moment ,
how ever I have spoken to True Point , about them and have a meeting tomorrow,, with him ,,as they are manufactures for different industries including industry ,

as for the sonic results the NBR are the best out of the 3 compounds I used, also not as bouncy as the silicone, which are more like an elastic band,, the decision was to use the NBR and in the Future research they may be changed, or offered as an upgrade,,
but the words value for money still has to count ,, some people require a discount , but as they are down to the very last penny now, with no return to keep people happy , I just cannot see any one paying £180 -£200 just for o-rings, it would make the product not viable,,, total cost of £400 for the set mostly of O rings,,
the best of both cannot be done,, with out an effect on price, as this is called cheap upgrades ( affordable upgrades ) for michell gyro,,
I am going to look into getting a purpose built o-ring , today ,,,
depending on the cost ,, again, the alternative to this suspension that I do is the spring stopper , but even that cannot be made to one size fits all ,, due to the differing sizes of the holes,, you are then back to the competitors who either use o-rings or string,,ALL will do exactly the same in time,,,,
SME I cannot comment on them as I have never owned or heard a SME table to comment,, I do not no their time frame to change the o-rings they manufacture,,, the cost of which is expensive to me,,

The cost of the whole Pete's Pylons is less than the cost SME O-rings,, in total ,
the o-ring being easily obtainable any where in the world,,,, no need for a main dealer ,, as their is not one,, just a manufacturer and retailer,,, and eBay ,, There is no Foo with the pylons they do what they do,, replace the OEM springs with an after market product that no one has to buy ,, or is forced to buy ,In my opinion ,, they are far better than the OEM springs ,, that is all,, so far the opinions are the same around the world , from New Zealand to Canada and USA ,, all are happy , with only one set returned from England with the comment they don't make the speakers disappear ,,,they were scrapped due to the custom size a rework is impossible,, and the chance of getting an other chassis the same size is impossible to guess,,

ATB
Pete

[Steve Allen]

Hi Pete,

Totally agree with your logic and ethics about ‘value for money’ and awareness of supply versus demand, what will the customer pay!!!

I don’t think for 1 minute there is any doubt about the pylons ‘value for money’ – period.

You mention VITON ‘O’ Rings, I was looking at those myself the other day, hence I am somewhat confused with your pricing structure, as the VITON Rings are (as expected) more expensive then NBR but £200 more, surely some mistake. Anyway, I had a look just now on the Net at a company called Eastern Seals; they are a UK based supplier their address is easternseals.co.uk, I notice they were selling genuine Du-Pont VITON V75 Rings (27,6mm x 2,4mm) for £0.2068 for batches <100. Therefore 18 x £0.2068 = £3.7224, which is a far cry from the >£200 you mentioned, obviously with larger batch orders the price reduces.

I just wonder if perhaps you mis-interpreted the prices being quoted.

They do sell some very expensive Rings at approx £8 each, but they are for encapsulated Rings which are not suitable anyway.

I hope this helps?

Very best regards,

Steve

[gwernaffield]

yes I talked to Eastern seals, they have said the NBR will be fine but if they are in direct sunlight UV would play apart and to use EDPM which I have just ordered off them,, I also am aware of the problems of supply for different O rings, , the £200 O rings from SME ,, I am not sure how many they use is it around 8 per tower at £8 -£9 each ,, unless I have misread the advert I just never followed that up ,,that is were the £200 came from not to mislead any one,
https://www.analogueseduction.net/sme-upgrades-parts-accessories/sme-turntable-suspension-band.html
the sme 20/2 taking 32 rings in 4 towers,

The Viton ones would not be suitable due to the stretch needed,, , ,, if the answer was simple every one would be doing them , with the design of the Michell having so many different size holes,,, with out a very costly solution one that would need Einstein to install them,,, they are what they are just a spring replacement , one which I will always help with, in my opinion are far better than the springs, , the O rings have been tested over 3 years, if problems have been brought to my attention I will always look again
but as I am not selling them they are bought through True Point engineering and true point audio, I have talked to them and will be calling in the morning as well,, also if you would like Steve I will send you some EDPM ones as soon as they are available , I have just ordered them off Eastern but have to wait for the pro former to arrive,,and then pay an wait again ,
ATB
pete

[Steve Allen]

Hi Pete,

The Rings made of EDPM material appears to be the way forward. Reading the specs from the Eastern Seals website, the Rings tick the right boxes in terms of function, i.e. resistance to UV, tear/stretch resistance, thus IMHO would be better suited to the Pylons design than NBR.

I would be interested in a set of these Rings; however, I would prefer the next size up to the 28,50mm you currently supply.

The reason being is for my deck the Nuts have bottomed out on the Adjuster Thread, so I cannot lower the sub-chassis any further, fortunately, I don’t need to go any lower, but I would prefer the Nut to be positioned in the middle of the thread length rather than the bottom.

No one else has mentioned this on the forum, so I am assuming that the issue is unique to my deck. My installation has the drive belt at 90 degrees to both the motor and platter spindles, so I am satisfied there is nothing wrong with my set-up.

The problem may be due to the fact that I previously had the solid imperial Adjuster, which has been replaced with the 2 piece Adjuster which you (Michell) supplied with your Pylons kit. It might also be due to my deck being an Export model; it may have slightly different depth of holes, whatever, the problem is not unsurmountable, and should be easily resolved with slightly larger (longer) Rings.

Cheers,

Steve

[mad-moon]

Hi Pete,

The Rings made of EDPM material appears to be the way forward. Reading the specs from the Eastern Seals website, the Rings tick the right boxes in terms of function, i.e. resistance to UV, tear/stretch resistance, thus IMHO would be better suited to the Pylons design than NBR.

I would be interested in a set of these Rings; however, I would prefer the next size up to the 28,50mm you currently supply.

The reason being is for my deck the Nuts have bottomed out on the Adjuster Thread, so I cannot lower the sub-chassis any further, fortunately, I don’t need to go any lower, but I would prefer the Nut to be positioned in the middle of the thread length rather than the bottom.

No one else has mentioned this on the forum, so I am assuming that the issue is unique to my deck. My installation has the drive belt at 90 degrees to both the motor and platter spindles, so I am satisfied there is nothing wrong with my set-up.

The problem may be due to the fact that I previously had the solid imperial Adjuster, which has been replaced with the 2 piece Adjuster which you (Michell) supplied with your Pylons kit. It might also be due to my deck being an Export model; it may have slightly different depth of holes, whatever, the problem is not unsurmountable, and should be easily resolved with slightly larger (longer) Rings.

Cheers,

Steve

Yeah Steve...I don't think there are two decks the same made by Michell. The o-ring length issue, was disscused at some point and again, it was a case of finding a happy medium for the Gyro and the Orbe....This issue was well tested by the owners of the Gyros and the Orbes before the o-ring length was settled upon. A different thickness o-ring was supplied with the Orbe kit, because of the weight difference in the platter, but that strange law, the law of sod, there is going to be a one off, where something else will be required to suit said one off..

[Steve Allen]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your reply.

I appreciate it has been a nightmare for you guys developing the pylon design, a constant battle with Michell’s lack of good quality control management. I clearly have the deck with the relationship of the thread to the sub-chassis being the issue, rather than the sizes of the holes which was the lion’s share of Pete’s problems, as you mention, there’s always one!!!

Cheers,

Steve

[Spectral Morn]

I have a Mk1 SME Model 20 with all the original O rings, never replaced and all functioning as should be. No sagging etc, TT stays level when set up.

[gwernaffield]

the system SME use is different ,,the pete's pylons which do not have the weight to contend with ,,Like the sme does,, I have found a set up manual on the Web ,do SME have an internal damper to help with the weight,,,

where the Michell does not need that ,, having a cast lightweight chassis,, in the past 2 years of using this design I have not had a problem ,,,I have always asked if any one has,,with always being told everything is fine,, the O rings stretches and then settles down after a week,or 2 ,, if I send them out with too longer O Ring they would bottom out ,with most users just placing the Motor pod on a piece of rubber or sorbothane,, thank you for helping in this debate ,, it is the only way forward , ,
ATB pete

[gninnam]

Just playing a few albums tonight as the wife is away this weekend and eyeballed the pylons and the nut is around 3/4 down on the thread so all good.
Also checked the rings and none are showing any signs of getting more brittle (also checked the level and not budged).
My TT is in a back room with no sunlight which probably helps :)

Still think they are the best upgrade to the Orbe or Gyro.
Well done Peter

[gwernaffield]

The Pete's pylons, I see as a long term upgrade and not just affordable upgrade,,for all owners ,, it has been said they are an essential upgrade to the Michell Gyro And Orbe users,, with the result and comments all positive results,, the debate about O rings has been a positive one, NBR is the best one to use,, but the option of EDPM is there as well,,

P.O.A. for the Full kit and requires the owner to measure the holes in the chassis,, will have all the parts in the Kit picture

P.O.A. is not a kit ,, will not require the owner to measure the chassis , but will fit with they only 2 bushes fitted NO bearings , No sorbothane pads or sorbothane top washer,, just the pylon it self ,,

A quality product in a plain white cardboard Box,,

This is a long term upgrade that will need servicing ,,the same as the springs,, I have been told they Bring a great benefit to the Gyro and orbe by the users , but I do to have test equipment or graphs to explain why ,,only ears , and now a lot of them

'On a gyro it’s a significant amount compared to the cost of a deck, but the benefits gained make it a bargain. On an Orbe it’s comparatively less but the benefits are just as great.' from a happy user ,,

ATB pete

(Pricing removed temporarily by Alex_UK, Mod, as requested by Peter whilst under review.)

[gwernaffield]

please note they are purchased through http://www.true-point.audio/

I do not do any other upgrades at this moment in time,, The Acrylic Ring is bought off ebay 114mm diameter x 12mm with a 80mm hole in the center ,, bought off wholesaleplastics,, on ebay ,, use the maichell arm board to drill 3 x5mm drill holes, and then add

a rubber gadget , 3 longer bolts,, and use the same spacer as with the Michell arm board ,, I do not make them ,, and will not supply them,

I have a solid acrylic arm board that will be on test in the next couple of months,, the cost has to be worked out ,, made out of cast acrylic ,, for sme,, these are still on the drawing board ,, Pete's gyro and orbe suspension upgrade pylons made by true point engineering ,,for the j a michell orbe and gyro .are for sale,

[Gazjam]

Hi Pete,
good job with the pylons, we kept in touch in the early days of development.

Im interested again now that they are a complete product and I’m thinking to get a set to improve my “Gorbe” deck.
one thing just to confirm, can the Michell spring covers still be used to fit over the pylons the same way as they do on the stock Michell springs?


thanks.
Gary.

[mad-moon]

Hi Pete,
good job with the pylons, we kept in touch in the early days of development.

Im interested again now that they are a complete product and I’m thinking to get a set to improve my “Gorbe” deck.
one thing just to confirm, can the Michell spring covers still be used to fit over the pylons the same way as they do on he stock Michell springs?


thanks.
Gary.

Yes they do go over Peter's design

[gwernaffield]

https://5gjj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4mbcTJIKKyxyvco6BTxxK-J3nVCgL5bAPfYHxjiYTqCPcFDWXCYr7VFYN3_kli67K2zFto9r pqLwEq1qNVzJvEaLALsqpKOXgZR-TX4k9htznxgTS-AQ-oGRaW-umHr8elGTUqc_3nqWtO5Xp9kzeFbfXJlf5iks8-oHKa6oZMFPcbmMSBrsVYssQ1Yk1pFwOBQAS86oR1wGK4HSFiGU QgnA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none
https://5wjj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4mV0YvBQnrUQbceVPstmUqcYWFeTT-uKobB8KlSjmcifdaW06ONUDss017pzpowJnvaElUrU_CG_auFD 3TV_Njrl7KXdosnGpmSGMfjcoZ4U8wqUeItfc5pL3er8goHPS5 Kr5_v2gUQhXR4BbW60UtvKurEhfbkvPRbkOq3hdF5MgMMcd-FF4AHqoEu1xG1z2ZodhbDfLWD-NM0BcN6bPI8Q?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

cheers Al , they do hide the pylons ,, if needed,https://4mjj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4m7ktfWXzIrQl_3VsnlikFce6kvMNtST6GpXb7TvWMbQ9NU_x H9UyYLKZvPCJIKt-CrcB7W70BjH6QxFV-IhsusPnAOpVb4ThGG_i_--lBCorFm8Lk2R0tPas3XKUJrXXb3-ld39ubM1e5CGkbSXNZwj-yrA3opZY0fb28edZo1JLdqocTm6uz9t8Tje5jGuF9XUmilhHGS FQ30nhaoatMyQ?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

ATB
Pete

[Gazjam]

Thanks Guys.
Pete think an order will be coming your way soon. :)

Not read the whole thread here, whats the measure the holes on the chassis thing?

[gwernaffield]

you have pm

[Gazjam]

you have pm

Thanks Pete, read that over tonight when back from work.

[gwernaffield]

you are welcome,

pete

[gwernaffield]

I have been asked about the acrylic spacer that you can buy off eBay and drill your own holes to make it fit ,, it was 114mm diameter 12mm thick and with a 85mm hole in the center ,, you need to make the gaskets from rubber and buy the longer bolts, all off eBay ,, I do not make them or supply them ,,

how ever I am looking at dining a full SME arm board out of Acrylic ,,which will be on piece and will replace the spacer and the Michell arm board ,, with the use of one piece proper arm board , ,which will be started tomorrow,,

https://2wjj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4me3JoDrBw_GiWK3wvE2o4tQmv1s_bp5aYq9a9tCdMhIs3ZVg MdIL5C5HJN-3u05mMBX70RnmcbRWThEJCDiyUdIDh8YA6WmK913djJjvIrjuG 6_gd8dtnipgwOR527Tmqe8mLfzQDCVAUvDX1faol7saZ8LdUna _CzG66okOdbCYqcS7XTXCyzxkWCn2UlyLU_xc5KoSDq_9W9tbH x7rpdg?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

https://42jj4q.db.files.1drv.com/y4mdagudYY_eIVzQ4K40ktggcqkpezwgEFtsyjxueuylaIA96a qY8S9VXSa7Bri0nKilDEidFLRT2ZqpJTW3py2v9mCPE3qVnMgO jniaTPw7k0agPk57Id3LKAQaX8qrgBQVTmA3X_nR3XF-xBKc-j3c3wHKbfXxHHH5g7hRTyhnmB1DFSkwjlW61dU8SKx8VnMsSKI bhfP3B_XKTVaYbOahQ?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

using the Michell arm board as a template, and then getting the rear counter bored to 85mm diameter fitting a gasket to the base,, to use a damper ,, i will let you know the cost, at a later date,,

The pylons are still made, The O rings that Steve had were replaced, this was because the wrong shore rating had been sent by mistake,, I had somehow ended up with 90 shore and not the 70 ,, he is now happy ,, and continues to enjoy the Gyro he owns,,
ATB
pete

[gwernaffield]

O Ring testing ,, After all that has been said ,,and done,, the rings will take a weight of 12.5 kg easy , if one is cut they will not unravel,,
https://3mitpa.db.files.1drv.com/y4me_pP_0Eguxv_BC0nNPH3Hev08uio7591JsXtiHD4eUPiEvs IX0uTtrX-3mRukd9-jHz0dyzmheHsZqimL07oF6g8mBPsh-eD3vUPB35s17z5x4e_okm0xQa58dPQuO3fl5OXWNUj4oQP5xfS YnuSH9I_xxlcf12rKKCdRy8iT-JJGtzthryRI4K5fYwlgi3Be_TSR6YE9MbW-A7vCVO4Ow?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none
https://4witpa.db.files.1drv.com/y4mpHDaLIyUOOBabzsk1ctNO9K1U3CiNkOlEwtCQHhTts5ssq9 VN1NX3YtZ5m3YQtsg7cYJQg8Z0CiJyjxF9PXKChQfmW_WdG5eV f38ycVw6pyF0POFM1YCulAruqhWfJ2Xnc0UeFV4CF4JHnUKuWK rfDb-CTwoLcFnaNgdrESB_5NA5rHZSvod3s1I5r4GeA-dtAJ9-c0g913D73jlkna4oQ?width=1000&height=750&cropmode=none
https://4gitpa.db.files.1drv.com/y4mIS3590Uj6UxLbdkQ3fd1zm16u9OJu00YxV1KhlpiFc9_PMG keUQzU81i5X55IXwX3BnqlnogUj4-JPOanvHTZS3xphNVSS4Ry7T6_8u7lKoD49jXraw3df0kXmpTl-4YfyEiw436Pgfn9lN9uT4xJ1htL_bZGtMaQQGFFqRTtOn3hfPn KZ91i9Hc78UZApMkbXmVZo_wcDkgS0vE1t4sgg?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none
https://2gj4gw.db.files.1drv.com/y4muEiDY2FILLMe6bYwxZNcbHJ15COg_6XKABEtP5hLt-KAKJtCZt0GAv1d4aETuvypos1AU-ZfOxkePxvap2zACioUN9wHyjeDHs56rNDvGyG4fvEQV3WG-_dXigLBKxk9X3vWekPOx3RKuaOHhB1s8KmlY5VMTEWmCeK2Ekj MERQy8QvWb_fg3OfWuNnRQL2HseI-Xn243jKozvBnfOgi_Q?width=1000&height=750&cropmode=none
https://42j4gw.db.files.1drv.com/y4m92PYkc3mZdlMphL4yqCDnzlOmveAzz6_Vc8Dw8B1K6EFgOI TS1YJsBlZggxv3_XgXMhRRQMBMZgeg3ISe8jsHTxuERbifMSkp hTGKICeuCTOeLMBOUblMc7RanYWJZo_aE7TdW5yzeEW3QUeECw g2Fenqah-T0xeEUb0lSx1EySdxw92Uo2V3RN_cXh54GFvrKGVeCzPYHDLfM ZJOtnMGA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none
At 12.5kg one single O Ring snapped
https://4mitpa.db.files.1drv.com/y4mpqDSXNAw8n2RULyoWatqb9Jro4UU8dSdEvIlJtgN0guCdIK 5q61n_EOeh8jfy69sAqYr1M1XBba2RcuKqcPzPbxK6-XCYYo1Y4wk5FBdHh8rbhWJZldzLOqHC7RGMWSYt4vKrnxHQ5EO mOVgNn7mZfjhGYIP3Zl3gzSeIhkfdEJ9dOsyWWXJ_HVKCjWEj8 t63MZLEnHr-VJ-TnKxyCyV2g?width=660&height=495&cropmode=noned ..
At 6.5 kg , one o ring will hold,
https://32itpa.db.files.1drv.com/y4m1w8zlpFfSHOa_iTOqtpaSjTMcFiO7Ct3GXR2afolNntGt6T GfIBnBTs5NUinHX6IEfQnVHsF7BgRaB10nRTS76zxqLp2lqI-6ZOse9hHtfoa5-UQHB6WiUq4TUo8Y_VoHKhXzAHSeuzHt34A5Cv3IpFv2W5j5ybF yES8YT8sUYQ9U__gyw_NyXaCo9QKcsABRineNllaXvwK8e8WIh xNCA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

In my opinion,, I think I would need about 39 kg to stretch the 6 o rings, and the 5 , but as I do not have something that weight I cannot confirm that ,,as one o ring will hold 6.5 kg to 7.5 kg and the pylons use 6 ,, 6.5x6= 39kg ,, 6 kg x the 3 pylons, 117kg all told,
where a threaded string will take 6kg x 3 18kg in total , the Orings are all separate and are safer than a threaded string in my opinion in this application
Pete's Pylons for michell orbe and gyro , using the the LTSS made by true point engineering and not by michell,,
the gyro platter is about 3.5 kg , the orbe platter is 4.5 kg ,, the chassis is about 4kg , with out the dampening material , each Lead weight is 1.5kg ,, x2
ATB
Pete

[mad-moon]

That's brilliant Peter...and peace of mind, knowing that nothing is gonna give any time soon..that is an incredible amount of weight..and a test taken to the extreme with the o-rings being only 2mm thick ..I've always had faith in them anyway and knew they were exceptionally strong. This will assure potential buyers of the pylons, that their valuable cartridges are not going to be at risk along with the many enhancements to sound quality and stability...excellent..

[gwernaffield]

hi Alan it was just to give peace of mind ,to the users, things had been said about if one had broken it would be a problem ,,, but the test proved it would not be,,only if I had used a continual length on rubber or other material it would of failed if threaded through all the slots in the base and nut ,, as one o ring will hold around the 7 kg mark ,, I use six in the design ,, it takes a lot to break one , if it had been one continual peace of rubber or thread it would of just pulled through the slots leaving no support at all,,

A.T.B
Pete

[gwernaffield]

just to update ,, you do not have to buy the bearings if you do not want to , this would leave the Michell bearings in the posts ,, so no need to remove them when fitting and no risk of loosing them either , the bearings are just to complete a further upgrade,,if you want them .. the price with out the bearings is £130,, with the bearings £150 ,, made to measure are £180 with out the bearings,, and with £200,,
all will have spare O rings ,,

The ceramic bearing is just a further upgrade to those who wish to do this,, along with the bearing ball in the main bearing ,, and come with the higher payment ,, along with the sorbothane parts ,,
there is no risk if the O Ring snapped, as the rest is held in place with the further 5 O rings,, ,,
the basic kit is £130 ,, ,,this Is an Exceptional Value product that comes in a plain box,, with NO Strings Attached,, they work straight out of the box, no need to measure if you do not want to ,,
as the tests have shown they will take considerable force to break the O Rings,, due to the design not being a one piece material threaded through the base and nut they can take the weight Placed on them ,, unlike a one piece material that is threaded through the nut and base it will only take 6 kg before it may fail in my opinion ,, Peter's Pylons use a total of 6 rings on each post ,each single o ring will take 6.5 -7.5 kg ,,, not just 6 kg ,,using a one piece material that is threaded through the nut and base,, they are designed to fit into both chassis holes, to give better stability ,location onto the designed Michell engineering points for the suspension ,,
ATB
pete

[gwernaffield]

As you are aware , I have changed the O rings over to EPDM , After talking to the suppliers,, the cross section is thicker ,, on the new version of the one size fits all the hole these pass through has now been made bigger ,, due to a couple of comments that the deck had lost its sparkle ,, After fitting the pylons, to an Orbe,, with further help from a couple of users it was found the O ring was touching the chassis in the base , this had a damping effect on the chassis,, causing it to become flat sounding ,, loosing its sparkle , which has now been rectified, thank you simonpeps ,,for your feed back ,, and thank you Mr moon for yours,,there were only 2 sets sent out like this as a Test ,, which has helped in the final sets being corrected for the new O rings,, fitted and every thing is fine now,,

The Only reason for the change in from NBR to EPDM is because the supplier asked if they were in sunlight which I could not answer ,,on the suppliers recommendation I have changed to EPDM , that is all ,,

[mad-moon]

The newer EPDM o-rings are excellent......As Peter pointed out, the thicker ring was indeed in contact with the chassis, which did dampen the sound considerably...I opened up the holes in the bases slightly, so the rings cleared the chassis and lovely jubbly again...They are a stronger o-ring all together and less susceptible to degradation....also...I have not had to adjust the suspension at all since fitting them....

[gwernaffield]

Hi Mr Moon , I am glad you like this,, I have just had some acrylic spacers in black arrive, to be used on any armboard as a spacer ,,, but will need to be drilled by the owner ,, as I cannot supply them drilled,, just add bolts and a rubber gasket ,, they are 10mm thick ,,

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Mr Moon , I am glad you like this,, I have just had some acrylic spacers in black arrive, to be used on any armboard as a spacer ,,, but will need to be drilled by the owner ,, as I cannot supply them drilled,, just add bolts and a rubber gasket ,, cost is £15 plus post ,, they are 10mm thick ,,

Might want to try with and without a rubber gasket, having experimented a bit more and chatted with a couple of other people about this, the rubber gasket might isolate the arm so much that it stops it from loosing resonance/vibration into the chassis and effectively cause feedback from the arm back into the cartridge. However it may be better with a rubber gasket based on the amount of resonance/vibration in the Gyro chassis that I measured. On a different TT I have found not using a rubber gasket between the chassis and the armboard produces best results, IMHO. It is also likely to vary dependent on what arm is being used as they all have different damping characteristics.

Just a thought.

[gwernaffield]

HI Adrian these are just a DIY thing , they are 10mm thick with a diameter of 116mm x 85mm hole,, you have to drill the 5mm holes your self ,, the rubber gasket is also not drilled,, hence the cost ,,also as it sits it is just a spacer ,,it is upto the people who buy them to complete them ,, as I do not want any problems,, these are just a armbord spacer ,, which need the Michell armboard to copy the holes off ,, and longer bolts by 10mm in length ,, 100% cast acrylic armboard now being made, 30mm thickness https://2gitpa.db.files.1drv.com/y4mOjtFAG44150HBM7gdNm5YtEwehaTSZvW2QTTXe3dQOn92U_ uwTubAh0pGVS_jKdgSlSATCe89sB2_vmkBXosBhIThhj-qkXFFJdG3GbZoq8Qf3Io3dpWLezlctMdHwc84KUDFPf_yDkFTD uvwTs9QaMukGRSmYlGKWefyFVXaVHoD6YWjcQltQ_d1UWxDAnR lnjGsN-wyixN11sN0sYB1Q?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none waiting to be drill for sme,, will not be polished, as it ,, only ,,
with longer screws ,,

ATB
Pete

[gwernaffield]

https://4wjcmg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mw_L8BSrXm2YpeD9W5W8I6w93SeOPUYDyngPgWmpih0Oj5Kw 5CLpd0yanUuBGLgwh4IPI0EWpl2bNqJp2_Fc9SH-hjJreeNZoL8p-SH5L_4Rp6Se0rVzuKyZwp9v6-vucLMBWR4A6IkuNuUgmB6t0_0B_zKmBgGMIDnMQqvNrawbRnYn Lw4WZ0KpmvcnD87JTu5sQ8whVyyNN9Zai41jLuw?width=660&height=486&cropmode=none

https://3mjcmg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mVvWPY1sVKV1URaAvDzQ0dMRhlIgLM6KBhh5WPvNcevuVUMM 9X9UECX0eSuC7UJPYx-_LALL7vSuRfDN3a_tH2eUSuu_VbI2Epv-qqXwL7mZyrRTJFBhBBFVOpKF6C3vuYfeNDYpFQjcbPNw_R-FSWGBEGjxH-RrPmOpArLXVamrqC9l8ETZo-wsxjK0XtcUvZ-lHUNRq2kxCIM5oh-5THQ?width=660&height=456&cropmode=none

completed Cast Acrylic arm board with Carbon fibre decal ,SME Cut , made from 30mm acrylic ,

[mad-moon]

That looks pretty good to me Pete....I'll be giving this a go for deffo.....I quite like the look of the unpolished acrylic too...

[gwernaffield]

Hi they are both unpolished, straight from True Point ,,yesterday , drilled and tapped using the SME Cut Michell armboard as a template , ,, one screw has to be longer ,, which will be with the arm board ,,it has to be longer so you can use the earth wires off the arm and chassis,,
the Carbon fiber is just a vinyl sticker which can be removed,, and replaced with some real carbon fiber if needed at extra cost,,

This is a proper acrylic arm board and not a spacer ,, or a copy of Gert Pederson's ,, it has been threaded to take the M3 screws ,, For the SME Arms,, the weight is very near the same weight as the Michell aluminium arm board ( about 10grm less until the sticker is added) it is 30mm in height to reduce any movement in the arm post ,,
ATB pete

[mad-moon]

New armboard winging its way to me...:popcorn:

[gwernaffield]

I have been checking on delrin and if can be recycled, and it can be , so the pylons are a recyclable product , no need to knock down trees ,,
even the EPDM can be recycled,

[gwernaffield]

https://5gjcmg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mvS_6wM05laD1S1LyjbYnSRWrRg-UqVJLOU3RX9JoMilOpyfJ9vyvWrhSQkZ-Hu2MeCwyTo_BL7-ZtO_9-s-2mlI5Cn5-XCz6KVQO8_OlEncu2EI6R41lkUpVwdcx6kulX6mebPW-wfY-Q7IvcTfRKN_FQdgHbqkuXOiUgvqUV-2UDFoyS7i8Z02om7mbn-AYyr0YUmnOEQh3vIYvJ4werg?width=660&height=471&cropmode=none
https://32jcmg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mArUEffBGT1oi_clNvd6ld-7zFk-XI2t3f0zJLl4unrWDq-PlPKYNbFW_I3q-S6JhBQF0bs9-5McnvsGX4ectAI6obcUbRs_FEy3inooA-X2Tqsky7uycMKy5BzBELWXMDign_v5nvL1Gj_j2iFNQqqJnp8C sDCefYeXbElrSM3MQv7nLO5n3zVBJBJHLaoHiNlG5LgHDmM_fY kAuA6EQHg?width=660&height=587&cropmode=none

cheers Mr Moon for testing this out i wait your feedback ,

[mad-moon]

Well as you can see from the Pics...the new armborad has arrived..I thought my Gyrodec had already been taken to the highest level, however the new solid acrylic armborad has taken it yet to another level, which I didn't think was possible. Initially I fitted the board with the original delrin spacers from Michell, as in the pics, but this meant the tonearm was just about right at the bottom of it's travel..I also tried an acrylic spacer, which is a similar depth to the Michell spacers, which again left no play room at the top of the tonearm pivot...Anyway.. The voicing is a lot better, the sound stage has opened up further and all aspects of the tonal range is even snappier than ever...crisp cybmals.. tight fast snare and toms..the Piano's are the best I've heard them yet..stunning clear vocals and the bass is deeper, more controlled, better extended and tuneful...I can pick all instruments out with ease, making for a much clearer listen...I said the Pylons were the best upgrade, but this armborad now fixed to the chassis, with a rubber gasket beneath it and the Michell spacers and acrylic ring spacer are now in the spares box...Is easily as good an upgrapde as the Pylons....The original Aluminium arm board is also now relegated to the spares box...and of course, again, as with all the mods/upgrades, everything can be returned to original Michell spec, should you wish to move your tt on, which is unlikely of course...atb folks...Al..

[mad-moon]

Looks fine too...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48163037117_94569276f5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2go19XF)GYROBOARD (https://flic.kr/p/2go19XF) by Alan Moon (https://www.flickr.com/photos/181639036@N04/), on Flickr

[Steve Allen]

Just an observation, but for future arm-boards, you may want to consider having the bolt/screw heads under-flush.
Looking at the photo and eyeballing, it looks like the screw heads could restrict movement of the tone-arm(s).

[mad-moon]

Just an observation, but for future arm-boards, you may want to consider having the bolt/screw heads under-flush.
Looking at the photo and eyeballing, it looks like the screw heads could restrict movement of the tone-arm(s).

Yes Steve...This small issue is already being addressed......Not so much a problem with the SME fit, as the bolt heads are way below the SME mount.....I have some stainless steel countersunk allen headed bolts on their way to me...Which will just require the board to be countersunk at the three fixing points, to take the bolts level with the top of the board, also will be using some bolts made from nylon, with the added benefit of more isoltaion..My Gyrodec sounds fantastic..:D

[gwernaffield]

https://4glddg.db.files.1drv.com/y4m82KRPi2jBoiMG7ctm_a_jRIF3sEaMOjdASmx9vYdAoI23sn lrF4gxUSj5tMQoso9Tfmu6tk51QGmAiote_eEKSUVj6SHRNuoo dE_EF7GhI-oV1JDfFzidhEnWqzRSZG5b0WKMUvTtfxqzveJb8SLXIAbqB0TH w7hJVe4Bf3Xsj4m4ysI5-uXfhB1QIcryFsuzyeirL1GH3jhvW4-cVM4zg?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

https://32lddg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mSk3aUrTTfZTZi0fEJ5fVlfeREf2CvBKbcSnCqA6-UQvYbdtrMkWoAahTE1Hf2ipdtd_lGeqpeiiC0bYoi8q1yytsCa rkZUXAJG8upSTl2ul1B2PjTLK5b-4VEsTL1Z4vPpn49UUaRVZXOWIOMTGS2laqLmYxa423xJaGtQW3 guykWgEPn7aAAasvdsvF1bkd15r5UExSjHX_gmjvixqV4w?wid th=660&height=495&cropmode=none

it is not a problem , I used nylon bolts , and a oak top due to having a funkfirm 5mm matt , sound is fantastic , no pops ,, arm is earthed and so is the chassis ,, bearing ,,and sweep arm , the arm is screwd directly into the oak and acrylic ,
the base of the acrylic armboard sits on a decoupling device , held in place with the 3 nylon bolts, that do not get in the way of the sme arm because of the way the Sme arm is made,,This are not CHEAP , due to the cost of round acrylic and the thickness of the acrylic needed, also to get the weight correct ,,so you don't over balance the arm on the chassis,, the maximum weight being about 1.1kg with the weight of the arm according to Michell,,

ATB
pete

[Vince]

I heard Als (Mad-Moon),tt yesterday and agree with everything he says. The stereo image is outside his room and the detail is unreal along with the tightest bass around. This with a Denon 103 cartridge, (which I really like).....and it makes you think.....what the hell kinda sounds will you get with....say a Koetsu or suchlike. Pete really knows his onions and really deserves some serious recognition.....he or Al are not paying me by the way. I just believe what my ears have told me. Good luck and best wishes for the future Pete.


Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

[mad-moon]

Having seen Peters arm board top, I thought..that looks rather pleasing, so I asked Peter if he had any more oak and lucky for me, yes he did...so he sent it to me and what you see on my TT is the result of a couple of hours very enjoyable work and It looks very impressive, but yet again and more important...the improvements in sound quality have jumped up another rung...my sound is really shivers up the spine stuff from the big black discs...There is one very very important part in the fabricatiion of the board...I could tell you...but then I'd have to kill you...;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48213850487_cd0d9dfabb_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gsuA1g)oak 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2gsuA1g) by Alan Moon (https://www.flickr.com/photos/181639036@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48213850512_c1ac27f335_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gsuA1G)oak 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2gsuA1G) by Alan Moon (https://www.flickr.com/photos/181639036@N04/), on Flickr

[Vince]

Sounded bloody good the last time I heard, so I'm looking forward to hearing it now.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

[gwernaffield]

Hi Vince,, you will be in for a shock , now in this is the final one,, you could say it was copied, but it is not ,, Gert pederson armboard is entirely different ,, Michell's armboard are mainly aluminium , Peter's Performance arm board is unique, in that it uses a hard wood top, this has not been copied,, any where,, The pylons are the same they have never been copied, I was discussing with Mr moon how long this has taken to get where the Gyro will see off the best Turntables around, I think it was 2 -3 years, with
parts being changed,,bearings ,, oil,, different materials, but not string ,, all materials used needed to be recyclable ,, the O rings on the pylons not to cost a fortune,, Alan came up with the theory to decouple all the parts that were steel and aluminium ,,
so out went the steel bearings,, to delrin, then to ceramic , we changed the oil to ZX1 super lube, (only use if you have a hr power supply ) ,, changed the top of the bearing with delrin ,, I designed the suspension with the help of Alan ,and Andy , who had to put up with the 3 rings and then the 6 ,, on hooks, we than changed to 6 slots,, with the use of O rings,, the out come was stunning ,,

That still left the armboard in aluminium, I made one of carbon fibre which is very good, but also very expensive, the material alone being £250 ,,

I made some plastic spacers , and used them along with the original armboard , but it was not quite what I was looking for ,,,, I also knew if the acrylic was heavier than the aluminium it would over balance the deck ,,

I took a couple of weeks to get the size and weight correct ,, also to allow adjustment on the SME arm,, there were only 2 made,,I told Alan about what I was upto , he asked if I had one spare could he try it , only if you are honest on what you think ,

he was taken back how good it was,, but I had then changed it to add the oak top ,,only because I did not want to add the height and weight of the acrylic ,

Even I was in for a shock how this added another dimension to the music ,, less ,clicks and pops,, you only hear what the producer has put onto the LP ,,, To where you would think the artist is in the room with you ,, I don't normally do feedback on my stuff , but boy oh boy,, Mr Moon was correct for me to carry on doing what I do,, to get the very best out of the normal gyro which will see of the orbe ,, and In my own opinion I have done that ,,

SME armboard is for sale POA,,
Rega arm Board is for sale POA
Bearing support still being made, POA...
Peter's pylons still for sale,, POA ,,
all are by true point engineering ,,,, all designed by me and tested by me ,,
ATB
Pete

[Vince]

Every upgrade I've had from you has been "A giant leap for Vinyl kind". Every upgrade I've had from Pete, I've been astounded at the improvement to the music. It makes the the difference between Vinyl and digital even wider as far as musicality is concerned. Very clever bloke and Alans input has been really useful as well. Just shows, you don't need to go to big companies and pay through the nose for major improvements. Please keep up the good work and I wish you well for the future. Cheers Pete.

[Steve Allen]

Alan,
The oak arm-board looks great, and I'm not surprised you are getting an even better sound as oak is an excellent choice of material to use for minimising the transfer of vibration(s). Russ Andrews uses oak for his equipment support feet, I have used it for my isolation platform (supporting the Gyrodec) with excellent results.
I must admit when I saw your original photo with just the plain acrylic arm-board, I thought it looked a little dull, fitting the oak top massively improves the aesthetics.
A suggestion you may want to consider is given the excellent material properties of oak, why don't you or Peter, make the entire arm-board from oak, it would be cheaper than acrylic/Perspex, and IMHO look much better - just a thought.

[AJSki2fly]

Alan,

A suggestion you may want to consider is given the excellent material properties of oak, why don't you or Peter, make the entire arm-board from oak, it would be cheaper than acrylic/Perspex, and IMHO look much better - just a thought.

You might want to consider the weight of a big lump of OAK and how it would unbalance the chassis!

[gwernaffield]

Hi it is all down to the weight of the arm and board , the board and arm cannot weigh more than 1kg -1.2kg due to the lead weights on the chassis, according to Michell ,, the sme board is with in that spec , if it is too light the set up will be wrong ,
also wood can crack , trying to find the correct seasoned timber is very expensive,, with acrylic working at £1,20 per mm, before machining , the cost of a seasoned timber is even higher ,, ebony timber cost £60 for the blank ,only to check /crack ,,and worp after 2 years of leaving it to air dry , and then roughly cut to a circle,for that to crack , this was not acceptable,, I lost a further amount of money on this,, the ebony is being used as a cup stand, so I don't burn the coffee table, it is still marked to the diameter needed but still too thick and way too heavy,,,
there are reaga armboards getting made next week,, all out of acrylic with a hardwood top ,, all the armboards are made of clear cast acrylic , as I cannot get large diameter in black at a reasonable cost ,

this has sat in the cupboard for 2 years cost £70 with post , but to my horror ,After cutting it and leaving it in a bag it has cracked and continues to do so

https://su41ba.db.files.1drv.com/y4mPzI7GAQVpnSrLeSMeTATwIuQoyAvDOa2fA6mub_oo89WyS-qmmjsvHqeiodowdDhfyxfgZrKXkoVaLA-dC3iWJboFsaFf2so-t--TloDUXgW_VJyNXIiRRd8ItKm4kZxHk8x7DyhPddhVuHMSy8kfv uEI3e4HzeJ7erWoQFOO-yq69Nov_Auaw-eJRDTcLAqONz1UULxPxupCqHM4XH1PA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

https://rp41ba.db.files.1drv.com/y4mCmABCxtAUqh9F0IDh7dWKWhGNfTD7glWjnq1-lu0HG9YOOWMpuvcJDUH3bgN5aSu9X0knrmqxCsem1F4wRn_NWm bLTUZ4k2CYDeUPx8EA3BOtUHXtjkfcRVUbEOxQWkp632BVMY9L FH6keVqFzjzyeE3sONYaQXN9xdaxmnS7f7rNRFGPLPNdRnVXgo jrzMJrRNj94i_gP_SNsOPtt26VQ?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none
After 2 and a half years this ebony is still not dry


ATB
Pete

[Vince]

Been to Alans for a listen to his Gyrodec and Wow. He is using a Denon DL103 and it sounds like a £1000 cartridge. I've always rated the 103 and even more, the 103R, and Alans deck with the mods is a country mile away improvement on the stock deck. The stock deck is superb......it's the reason I own one, but with these improvements, it just keeps getting better. I'm always doing my own tweeks and have really enjoyed each improvement that Pete has supplied....and Alan has normally fitted.....thanks pals. I had a friend around the other day and he has never heard my system befors, but he is always saying....what do you want to play LPs for. You have to listen to all that popping, clicking etc. His jaw nearly hit the floor when I set a record away. There's no interference at all, he stated, it sounds like a CD but better. He's 83 years old and hasn't listened to a record since CD come out and assumed, (wrongly), that it was all turntables had lots of unwanted noise. He won't be buying a deck, but he certainly enjoyed listening to mine, as does everyone who hears it. Also as I earlier stated, it's not silly money upgrades either. I recommend everything that Pete has done to my deck, and if you don't like it, it is all easily reversible. Not that you will want to reverse it.

[mad-moon]

Been to Alans for a listen to his Gyrodec and Wow. He is using a Denon DL103 and it sounds like a £1000 cartridge. I've always rated the 103 and even more, the 103R, and Alans deck with the mods is a country mile away improvement on the stock deck. The stock deck is superb......it's the reason I own one, but with these improvements, it just keeps getting better. I'm always doing my own tweeks and have really enjoyed each improvement that Pete has supplied....and Alan has normally fitted.....thanks pals. I had a friend around the other day and he has never heard my system befors, but he is always saying....what do you want to play LPs for. You have to listen to all that popping, clicking etc. His jaw nearly hit the floor when I set a record away. There's no interference at all, he stated, it sounds like a CD but better. He's 83 years old and hasn't listened to a record since CD come out and assumed, (wrongly), that it was all turntables had lots of unwanted noise. He won't be buying a deck, but he certainly enjoyed listening to mine, as does everyone who hears it. Also as I earlier stated, it's not silly money upgrades either. I recommend everything that Pete has done to my deck, and if you don't like it, it is all easily reversible. Not that you will want to reverse it.

It does sound very special now Vince....I'm looking forward to trying out that Bullet Wood you mentioned Vince......is that the wood you showed me that sinks in water Vince..??

[gwernaffield]

hi all I have been speaking to True Point and have sent more sketches to them with regards to the Rega version
The rega version is under construction , as the rega arm is a lot lighter in mass,
with the help of Steve Allan we have worked out how to get to the mass that is needed ,
the acrylic being too light by 230 gram ,,so we will be placing brass weights in the acrylic ,and covering it with oak ,
sorry their are no drawings or pictures to be seen , yet ,

regards
pete

[Vince]

It does sound very special now Vince....I'm looking forward to trying out that Bullet Wood you mentioned Vince......is that the wood you showed me that sinks in water Vince..??

Yeah Alan, the bullet wood is the same wood that I made for the cases for power amps that I knocked up. It is indeed heavier than water, incredibly dense but an absolute bastard to work with. It has a high oil content, dulls tools easily and doesn't glue very easily. But because of it's density I think it will perform very well on the Gyrodec. I will get some through my mates thicknesser and we'll see how it goes.

[gwernaffield]

Hi All you can use any wood, but the thickness needed is 5mm, due to the way the rega uses the Mitchell VTA adjuster , that has to be taken into consideration,, so the 28mm hole is 9mm deep with the 5mm with the oak,, it will locate on the 23, and the 28 on the armboard ,
one of the problems to over come is the mass of the armoard , and arm , 900grm is the lowest ,, and 1.kg is the highest Inc the weight of the arm ,,, to keep the deck with in spec, they are working on that this week , also the cost , is still to be sorted ,
if the armboard at 35mm thick it may not need the brass weight weights,, but it also would not have the wood top, the cost would be lower ,,due to no brass and wood,,

at 30mm plus the wood , it is too light , we are having to put brass weights into the armbord , to get the correct weight , covered by the wood,,

True point engineering are just in the stage of doing the prototypes,, to be sent out for test ,, with oak and brass,, they will not be taking orders until I have had feed back , due to the cost and time, the cost will be more clear when we know exactly which design will work for the best ,, the rega is a far lighter arm than the SME ,,

ATB
Pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi all , just a quick note all the parts /armboads and pylons are made by True Point Engineering and Audio,, I do not work for them ,,,all moneys are to be paid to true point audio,, who will issue a receipt, and make to order ,, I just designed them ,,
I hope this clears things up ,, please contact True point audio from their Web site,,

kind regards
pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi All ,just a quick update we have opended the holes up in the base to 5.5mm ,to allow the use of the thicker orings,, after a lot of testing the thicker o ring we're catching the chassis hole and acting like a damper ,, to stop this we have opened the hole up ,,
also those waiting on news of the armboards ,, they are still in True point ,, although i have been promised they will be done this coming week,, but and a big but ,,True Point anre a busy engineering company with the audio side on a least urgent list ,, incase there are no more orders against the permanent customers ,, so the audio stiff like arm boards and pylons are at the bottom of the list ,, i am sorry for the delay but it is out of my hands,, they have promissed that they will start to machine the armboard some time next week ,,

pete

[gwernaffield]

hi all just a quick up date the blank for the rega has just been machined , now the brass has to be machined so the arm board is the correct weight

https://wmppra.db.files.1drv.com/y4mnGWkv4GSKeULPjTmpaylkSOnVtFSHGoTt3EobOWuFGYgSYr KQWli4MgFHvdM8q4Qh-mD-ZcVCXvpasnZ_-anC5zPUUT3hjbnsYrF_6EnYqrxnKFibv-PGlvy_fayLZ88B33-WOcOq-fCFwIRYRN4akdpa7NqV_BMSoP-_xbbmdhxd6e0dm5OeW0U8jjXwuBofBBpFZRJ-Pk0r1FlJWfVrQ?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

atb pete

[Gazjam]

Hi Peter. :)

Can I ask,
would you say the upgrades for a Gorbe (My deck - An Orbe all bar the Tacho) are pretty much finalised now?
I've held off as I've felt it was still in the Development cycle, but have it from a few people now that your upgrades are absolutely worth it.

Wanted to take the plunge before, but only want to do this once and do it right...as they say.
So if you say it's good to go...

[gwernaffield]

hi gaz just for you i will lend you a set of suspension to try , i have sent a pm ,
pete

[mad-moon]

hi all just a quick up date the blank for the rega has just been machined , now the brass has to be machined so the arm board is the correct weight

https://wmppra.db.files.1drv.com/y4mnGWkv4GSKeULPjTmpaylkSOnVtFSHGoTt3EobOWuFGYgSYr KQWli4MgFHvdM8q4Qh-mD-ZcVCXvpasnZ_-anC5zPUUT3hjbnsYrF_6EnYqrxnKFibv-PGlvy_fayLZ88B33-WOcOq-fCFwIRYRN4akdpa7NqV_BMSoP-_xbbmdhxd6e0dm5OeW0U8jjXwuBofBBpFZRJ-Pk0r1FlJWfVrQ?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

atb pete

This is going to be something else...Looking foward to end result Pete....apart from the sonic improvements...this is gonna look fabulous too...the arm board echoing the look of the platter...all good stuff...:popcorn:

[struth]

Hi Peter. :)

Can I ask,
would you say the upgrades for a Gorbe (My deck - An Orbe all bar the Tacho) are pretty much finalised now?
I've held off as I've felt it was still in the Development cycle, but have it from a few people now that your upgrades are absolutely worth it.

Wanted to take the plunge before, but only want to do this once and do it right...as they say.
So if you say it's good to go...

you keeping the g'orbe now then mate :)

[gwernaffield]

True Point are making the Brass inserts to get the weight correct ,to keep the deck balanced and with in Michells spec ,, ,, their will be 3 delrin spacers to get the correct height ,of 35mm the arm board is 30mm,, it can be bolted direct to the chassis ,or use the 3 spacers or add a wooden top ,, the SME version is the correct weight ,so no need for brass inserts,,

[Gazjam]

Thank you Pete.
I’ll measure the holes in my chassis this afternoon and get the information to you.

Curious now how it will improve the sound of the deck. :)

@Grant
Looking possible mate..
A lot of tyre kickers and lowball offers unfortunately, can’t be doing with that.

[gwernaffield]

Hi Gaz it is not a problem, i will sort them for you,, pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi All after a couple of emails i have spent a lot of hours looking into static on vinyl ,, after being told a certain company has said the suspension my add to static ,, well the suspension on the michell is seperated and is not grounded through the adjuster as it sits on a delrin nut ,, the base is seperated by a Ptfe washer,, i have looked on the old internet for solutions on static in vinyl ,, it seems as though it is the thickness of the new vinyl 180grm that is causing problems,, it contains more carbon black ,,it holds a static charge more than the thinner 70grm , please make sure the ground wire is connected to the chassis and the arm board ,, the new arm boards will have longer bolts included to do this,,
The web site i have just been reading has some very good advice ,, ( http://www.vinylmeplease.com/magazine/how-to-deal-with-static-electricity-and-your-records/ )
it is not the suspension ,the use of ceramic bearings,, etc ,, but the complex make up of the vinyl it self ,,
ATB
pete

[gwernaffield]

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please note the decal is just for show and will not be on the box,,

please contact truepoint enginnering ,( Charlie ,, )

peter

regards peter

[AJSki2fly]

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https://wu7yfg.db.files.1drv.com/y4m8vjpMRjPiyQTJ8voWT81s0_AohAomRyLR7Qe5DsK5mUEN7a Igf-RqY9no9derixWY7lLaBscuYBvdW2TiT3GJ-6G-6C18wEcte25TE1drhIFgBLOT-XVjyORpAzxJbOqHQzbewllwGaUQKUIUgdM2sLwsygPvkK5O1j6 EYD9m4KaC_rNVb9gRzw5z4ynlm3iS5eEnWOBiNOPYqXZV-asrg?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none


please note the decal is just for show and will not be on the box,,

please contact truepoint enginnering ,( Charlie ,, )

peter

regards peter

Very posh, looks good. Hopefully True Point will get going on them.

[gwernaffield]

Hi Adrian they have done the rega version i just have to test it this weekend,, all of them will be sold by truepoint , or by me ,, who ever has them at the time, with 3 spacers 5mm and 3 nylon screws , a ptfe washer for use with the michell adjuster , and some o rings , 3 to place around the bolts,, i hope it sounds as good as it looks,,

pete

[gninnam]

Does look the business and hopefully it will work as it should:D

[gwernaffield]

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https://gx44pa.db.files.1drv.com/y4mWaq4adOTQDOGmVUzjOFWfVK5_MO0PBmiJglFormxI93WmaH S9KdjcwU3gONaKWXJB_ALoqibUWI8kBzhqt1IhCmTNrVnjPFL9 rn0RiX4-kvRA1SbIau34jmRAb5XebxR9quprDrJNtizNLSevlj1x6Gx6Ew vKL1y3Ht5mwpxsTdCJr4m2fvkqexFQcgYNPvCU1oeBINZ9iv1C V0k9IzwBA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

just set this up ,, the set up has to be checked again , as i seem to be getting more from the techno arm than before ,, more bass tightness, and more mid range ,, also had a problem with a squeek off the locing nut ,which as been sorted by the use of a ptfe washer ,
also added a home made rubber base washer ,4mm thick rubber ,, how ever it looks rough and is,, i am going to use some nylon spacers with a oring on the top , 5mm high 10mm diameter ,, testing all this week ,, i am alos not sure how long the brass will saty the bright color before it changes color ,

pete

[gninnam]

Bling tastic :D

Splash of lacquer should stop the brass from changing colour I believe.

[gwernaffield]

Hi Andy the only problem is i dont want to take it off the deck ,, lol the technoarm is as near to a sme 309 than i have ever heard in the past ,, sooo good,,not sure if i need the 309 ,, i uderstand about lacquer , i will look into it , ,

pete

[gninnam]

Hi Andy the only problem is i dont want to take it off the deck ,, lol the technoarm is as near to a sme 309 than i have ever heard in the past ,, sooo good,,not sure if i need the 309 ,, i uderstand about lacquer , i will look into it , ,

pete

The arm base sounds promising if its uplifting the arm to that level - great result so far!!

[gwernaffield]

HI Andy the armbaord is sitting on a home made rubber ring to help stop any vibration off the chassis , i may buy some sorbothane ,the cost is rediculas for a peace that is 12x12cm and 3mm thick , also has to be 70duro and not the softer stuff ,, i have seen that just turn to mush when preassure is applied,
i have been listening to RADIO KAOS , a very hard lp to get every last bit of information out of , but now it is not a problem,,

Charlie from true point put a dimple in the top by the hole that goes to the front , it is spot on the 222mm i used the stevenson template off vinyl engine to set it up ,, sounds great ,, but more to test tomorrow, one thing was a squeek of the nut when tighting so i have used a ptfe washer to stop that works a treat ,, as ususal i have used nylon screws to hold the armboad in place , but so far so good,

pete

[TAD12]

Looks quite the business. Well done to all involved. Cannot wait to get my Odyssey updated.

Tad.

[gwernaffield]

please contact http://www.true-point.audio/ to purchase ,, the price is with them ,, not me,, i dont want to be accused of not paying tax,, all payments made to them ,,they will issue an invoice and how to pay ,, any problems please pm me,
i will see if i can resolve any problems,,
kind regards
pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi all if you need the Rega armboard with the 3 top screws please let True Point know ,

kind regards
pete

https://hb44pa.db.files.1drv.com/y4m-AVPOeRX_o-olTOyONL1FUb6FHeVgis9VPAYSrWJHJj-8fgm-J9Fn6cuAMgVIsdUDMXdg2WpPEO3PxOHTungNIarcE1vM68pRpB 7YgiO_vTPTdeBFB37NTm3sEwkfT59a0ZZlkllkQPHk5CFTg5-0p0_x-BGUp9g4Fy8ice0MDTjT_rXpgUZ3dRAocsAPghtAEc1dEP-xuk-ParV7TnjYg?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

[Breaker]

Hi all,

Bit late to the party but I thought I'd throw my 2p in, I'll spare the hyperbole for the magazines...

In short these are an absolute no brainer and well worth the money.

If, like me you were looking for a stability solution to the Michell springs this is the perfect fix. I was never able to get the perfect 'bounce' and I was certain it was affecting the performance of the turntable.

The worst thing about this upgrade is nothing to do with the upgrade but having to cater for Michell's lack of consistency in regards to the size of the holes on the base, it is a bit fiddly so ensure you have a digital caliper to hand!

I noticed a significant improvement once fitted, pretty much across the board. More transparent, more detail & more music. The turntable can simply pick up the whole frequency range better, more bass much more detail in the mid and top end. I was very surprised with the results, my turntable has never sounded better!

Pete is an absolute gent and really put in the time answering my often daft questions and helping out with tweaks. Quick delivery and lots of helpful advice.

If anyone else is reading this and not sure hopefully this will encourage you to take the plunge.

Thanks again and fantastic thread I stumbled upon!

[gwernaffield]

Hi Breaker thank you for the review, they are still made, so still avalible, from truepoint ,, i can get them made with out the use of a digital vernier ,, and you dont need to change the bearings if you dont want too,, these have been difficult to produce because of the different size holes in the michell chassis , i could just suspend the deck by using the base ,, which i have looked at ,how ever it does not cut down on the wow,, which was the point in doing these in the first place,,
you now hear more out of the lp, which was hidden before , ,we have just enhanced the deck by making the armboards,, which add to the whole sound of the gyro and orbe,, in my own opinion it has even more better depth ,i dont have anything more to add,
thanks again for the little review

ATB pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi All after a couple of days messing about and being asked about static,, the pylons are not part of the earthing on a gyro /orbe, i have confirmed this with Michell,, also the use of a ceramic bearing does not add to the static ,
static starts as soon as you remove the LP out of the nice cardboard sleeve ,especially the 180grm stuff , you can try to check this by putting the LP near your arm ,it may lift the hairs with the amout of static it is holding,, here are a list of solutions
1 buy some antistatic sleeves for your vinyl ,
2 check that every thing is tight ,down to the earth screws on the phono stage
3 make sure the earth strap is tight ,
4 make sure that the oil is correct and does not need to be changed or topped up ,
5 if you use a mat make sure it is cork or rubber only about 3 -6 mm thick , rubber 1mm
6 run a continuity test to check all the earths ( ground wires are in tact )
7 continuity to the arm and bearing by adding the earth strap to the chassis or using the stright through bolts,
8 check the belt is not slipping , if you remember from school that this may charge the platter to where you get a static discharge , ( vanden graff generator ) sounds daft but the platter is made of a similar material to the Vinyl )

But all of this starts at the time you take the vinyl out off the sleeve ,
pete

[gwernaffield]

https://thevinylfactory.com/features/vinyl-faq-07-grounding-your-turntable/

please read this , it is very good at explaining why you need to ground the chassis ,

[gwernaffield]

https://www.originlive.com/support/hi-fi-problems-troubleshooting/tonearm-problems/

more tips ,

atb pete

[blake]

After being thrilled with Pete's suspension, I was really curious when he came up with the new armboard design. I'd experimented years ago with various types of shelf materials (glass, tempered glass, corian, MDF, baltic birch, etc. and also acrylic. I found that the best sounding support for my table (even using a Target Wall Shelf and replacing the stock MDF shelf in that) was a constrained layer shelf that I put together using a base piece of baltic birch with a thin layer of neoprene sheet on top of that, followed by a top layer of extruded acrylic upon which my table sits. Would have gone acrylic on the bottom layer at the time but it was pricey and many years ago when I did not have an excess of cash so stuck with the baltic birch there.

So when Pete came out with the acrylic armboard I thought there was a very strong possibility it would be a winner and decided to take the plunge. Things didn't go absolutely smoothly for me (long story-problems on my end unrelated to the board(s) and then a glitch with one of the boards I bought but I've been up and running for a week or so now and can confirm Al's impression of the board and its effect on sound quality in post 412. I think he's done a very good job of describing its attributes. Much more focus, clarity and retrieval of detail along with improvements in musicality and tightening and extension of bass. Everything is just more fleshed out. The new board reveals the original Michell board to be a bit congested and dynamically challenged by comparison. There is also a real sense of composure in complex passages with big dynamic swings; you can simply hear much more of what is actually happening in the performance in moments like this as opposed to hearing much more of a mish-mashed "blend" of sound.

It's a cliche but backgrounds are blacker. And surface noise is further reduced. I ended up buying some extra thick (3.2 mm) grungebuster dots from Herbie's Audiolab that have adhesive on one side and cutting them down and attaching them to the underside of the armboard(s). Still have to get the nylon bolts cut down to use those.

I was previously using the Michell tonearm decoupling kit and frankly, had to strain to hear any positives with it. Definitely not the case with these, although they are much more expensive and not really cheap. But they are worth it. With two arms (and armboards) the bang for buck has not been quite as big as the suspension upgrade but that may not be the case for single arm users. A really worthwhile upgrade and I could not go back to the stock armboard.

Have to admit that the "look factor" is also quite nice as well. I wish that I could have tried out a wood laminate top armboard but increasing the thickness would have run me into a bit of trouble in terms of setting VTA/SRA.

In any event, I am very happy and would highly recommend. Once you go here, you will not go back.

https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/user_image/2507/27448.jpg

https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/user_image/2507/27447.jpg

[gwernaffield]

Hi Blake , thank you , it was abad start to these ,as you know you are in canada and the board are made in th euk by true point , the original sumiko board some how ended up with the wround geometey for the arm , never one to run away when things go wrong , you will receive the replacement as soon as it has been made , although it will be a jelco one,, now you have replaced the arm, the mix up was when the arm was turned on the opposite direction , the holes in the bas were 30degs out ,, their is no excuse it should of been checked before it was sent ,, now they arrive at my home and will be checked and tested on my deck before being sent out ,, unfortunatly these are not cheap , they have a lot of machining work done to them ,
to get the weight with in Michell limits , ,
you will notice on blakes pictures that one board has more brass weights in then the orthe , the jelco 250 being lighter then the jelco 750 ,, he needed to balance the boards to get the correct weight ,, leaving out a 11 brass weights to get the balance correct for his system ,
i hope you have hours of listerneing , you never know what will be next ,, on the list of upgrades for this wonderful turntable,

pete

[Vince]

Just fitted my new arm board from Pete......Wow.
There was a big improvement with Pete's Pylons and fitting ceramic balls in place of the stock steel balls. The whole musical spectrum was dramatically inproved, timing, detail, mids jumping out at you, (in a very nice way). The bass was really tightened up with very little bloom and a syrupy smooth treble.
The arm board has given me more of a the above. There is no bloom to the bass now and the music seems to have speeded up, even though the arm board has no effect on speed. The mids are hanging in the air like the singer is there. Stereo image is now into the next room, it's that wide and instrument placement is wonderful. Altogether the turntable sounds like the good parts of CD playback, ie. background noise has disapeared, tracks like a train on rails. Plus there is all of vinyls attributes making it sound perfect.
I can honestly say now, my vinyl set up is as good as just about any system I've heard, and I've heard a few.
This upgrade is a simple no brainer if you have a Gyrodec, it really is astonishingly fantastic.
Every time I drop the stylus now, I just sit there with a daft grin on my face.
Plus Pete is a real gent.....a bloody genius to boot.
%1000 recomended.
I'll put pictures of the upgrades soon.
Thanks Pete,

[gninnam]

Glad for those who have changed the arm board and heard improvements.
Seems to be no end of tweaking is available with these decks :D

[gwernaffield]

Hi All i think i have just about done what i could afford to do and then pass it on to anyone who wants to buy them off truepoint,, it has been a long slog ,, with help from members, all i can say is now sit back and enjoy the Michell Turtable at its very best , or just leave it the way it was ,, all the upgrades /tweaks can be reversed ,with no problems to the original michell set up , it will always be a Michell Gyro or Michell Orbe,, not mine or truepoints,, thank you for the kind comments on the new armbaords,, which had a bad start with one being made wrong ,and has been sorted out ,, the rest being spot on , i have left all the comments to the users of the armboards and the pylons,, last sets went to the Netherlands , then to liverpool , and canada , armboards to uk , canada ,


atb
pete

[TAD12]

Hi there Peter and AOS friends,

I'm just in the process of finishing off my Odyssey with the new armboard. The look is fab. The sound for the basic deck is now , well, awesome. I still have to put into effect some tweaks for the base. ( Target speaker spike protecters for the feet together with SDS anti vibration plates. ) A few simple rubber grips to make sure that the motor base stays put appears to work too. My thanks to you Pete, for making a good deck now sound outstanding.
Aaah, now back to the vinyl, which should keep me going over the next few winter months here in Montreal, where it can go to MINUS 40C, yep that's right! Santa needs his anti-freeze and windscreen washer fluid, which is rated to Minus 45C. A big difference from UK winters.
To all Michell owners who have these additional parts in their decks, enjoy the extended lease of life which the decks have been given by Peter's contributions.
Cheers!
Tad.

[Vince]

Hi, as I promised here are the photo's of my new arm board from Peter.
Myself and Alan, (Mad-Moon) are sitting listening to the Korgis and Buffalo Springfield. It is absolutely astonishing the improvement this has made to my Turntable, Alan is sitting with his jaw hitting the floor, and myself.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48918557206_be2e4d5d55_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLoL7)IMG_0004 (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLoL7) by Vincent Parkin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140250732@N08/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48918557541_e42cc904a9_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLoRT)IMG_0003 (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLoRT) by Vincent Parkin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140250732@N08/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48918557206_be2e4d5d55_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLoL7)IMG_0004 (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLoL7) by Vincent Parkin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140250732@N08/), on Flickr

[gwernaffield]

hi vince , good to see, i notice you put the spacers back becuse of the height of the carridge i presume, i just designed them , you have to speak to Charlie who makes them and will sell you one, they are all made one at a time, bespoke ,
due to the nature and the cost of material , time involved , they are not a Cheap thing ,, They are a Full Armboard and not a armboard Ring ,, held on by nylon screws seperated by a o ring , to michell specification ,,although Michell, have nothing to do with the design or manufacture or Gert Pederson
, it is just logical to make the board out of acrylic,, as long as the weight is correct to what i have been told by Michell , so now you get the benefits of the acrylic made into a full armboard,, with the added weights so the board will be the correct weight ,
it seems daft to ask how heavey the arm is you are using ,it is so he can work out the weights required , the board is drilled with 12 holes to take 12 weights,, as i have a techno arm i can weigh it with the board ,, until it weighs the correct amount for the board to work,,
dont be surprised if you are asked by Charlie to weigh the arm you are using ,,

enjoy the music
pete

[Vince]

Just to clarify, Pete designed the armboard and I got mine off him but it was made by true point audio

[gwernaffield]

Hi Vince thank you ,, i have been having a platter made of acrylic some 45mm thick , the weights off the gyro will be inserted into the bottom of the platter when complete,, it is in the process of being machined,, i have also just designed a armpod that i am having made for SME and Jelco ,, arms, to use the std armboard or a new one if you have the new o ring pylon ,, this is a work in progress,,as yet it is still on the drawing board https://rtwzdq.db.files.1drv.com/y4mtYsFOc-gwrKtIthg6Ij1WBo9n9PXJ7TFsXAv8_wLL4Qw_Fhg1qKssXjr6 S9I2PCDjEoKAc7OCMgCcstPp0JYCL0fqbTzb1RspZnAdzGGI2R 1YIraYRMzxGzQq6jWYXrdi0aPhKDubJC1tRECs_FD5GMgn72DH 20CPRizUCp5yRR3GEGALwF5EtJvUnC7tA1nf1vDvzcluimbGBt vnsmRSw?width=670&height=800&cropmode=none

The platter is in the middle of being made.,too my design by truepoint ,, i like the gyro platter but find the drive grooves are a pain , so to keep the look and get more mass, we will insert the platter weights into the acrylic one,,, i was looing for a flat belt but could not buy one,, unless a special was made,, the weight of the acrylic is about 5kg at this moment ,, and then the weights have to be added,, there is also a tripple pully to be made,, one 45 and 2x 33,, to use the michell belts,,


have a good christmass and a happy new year to all of the AOS Members,,

pete

[gwernaffield]

Hi All so after Truepoint making and selling a lot of the pylons, there was one complaint received, which is the result of fiddling with them , and not fitting them properly, putting the o rings in wrong and using thinner than needed, then removing of the bearings in the pylons bases,, also removing the pads in the pylons which the suspension sits on , to get a realy bad result, the reason the pylons are stiff to use is the orings and not elastic bungee chord, they will no longer bounce all over the place , the stiffer the less movement of the chassis, the center bush is there to help the chassis from moving ,
they are not single point contact any more?? ,The nut with the o rings on sit of the original single point contact adjuster with the bearing inside,
the microphone effect has always been part of this deck , from the design of the deck you will always get some sort of microphone effect as the aluminium chassis has no where else to send the frequences to,
it has and continues to be a bugbear to try and get rid of that effect , but the only way is to use a seperate arm pod and not clamp the arm directly to the chassis
he has continued with a app of to measure the wow , which means nothing as he has changed the original supplied pylons, to his pylons, and not mine, Truepoint have offered him a full refund, i wait to see what the reply is from him , but out of a lot of sets this is the only one,

pete

[gwernaffield]

well the guy got back and now says there is noting wrong with them and he is keeping them , HIFI a funny old world, plese note these use o rings not bungee chords, they no longer bounce , the oring will stretch and return only

pete

[AJSki2fly]

well the guy got back and now says there is noting wrong with them and he is keeping them , HIFI a funny old world, plese note these use o rings not bungee chords, they no longer bounce , the oring will stretch and return only

pete

Mmm, sounds like the person new they were an improvement really, but was moaning about other issues with a Gyrodec or Orbe that we all know about, microphonics from chassis to arm, static if not earthed correctly etc. the pylons you designed are a massive improvement over the pyramidal springs from Michell that allow the chassis to wiggle all over the place, perfect to max WOW and get a good Flutter.

[gwernaffield]

Hi Adrian ,i think you are correct , the shock is there is no bounce in the deck when you fit the pylons as rubber o rings will not bounce , they are meant as a shock absorber ,not to retain the bounce of the springs, he has noted in the message the wow has gone down to the std springs, to 1% using the app on his iphone , well all i have are ears ,i did not do a graph they either work or they dont , in this case they do, by a country mile, now that was the surprise ,,

[gwernaffield]

This is from a new user in canada he has one of the worst orbes i have come across, one of the pylons was not perpendicular to the spider and one was out of measurement , he has sent me this review which has has done on another forum ,
it seems with the extra weight in the platter the spider tends to bend over time , this would mean even the springs would be a mile out of spec,any how enjoy his review , his name is D mendelson

After a fair amount of work to get Pete’s Pylons up and running, I have been able to spend some time listening to my table. Consider this a preliminary report, there are still some things I am working on to optimize the suspension.
Gentlemen, the difference that this revised suspension system has made to my Orbe is not subtle. It is almost like getting a new table.
At first I struggled with the difference. Orbes and Gyros have a sonic signature in my experience; an inviting, warm almost silken sound that invites you into the music and makes almost anything sound good. It is almost the opposite of CD sound (although not perhaps of the best high resolution digital). They are the ultimate analog sounding tables, with the Orbe more solid sounding, the gyro more “airy”. I love that sound, that’s why I bought one.
The o ring suspension remove most, if not all of this coloration. The sound becomes faster, more precise, more dynamic, more hard hitting. In fact, at first I felt the sound had become a little hard. But I found VTA adjustments easier to hear and make then before. When I finally found the spot, and it was quite a bit from where I was before, I was rewarded. I began to appreciate the gains you get when your source becomes more neutral.
The increase in detail is surprising. I know it is cliche, but I really am hearing things in albums I have been playing for decades that I had not noticed before. The increase in dynamic and slam are easy to hear. The sound seems to float freer from the speakers, everything seems a bit clearer in the mix. Again, the differences are not subtle. Who would have thought the suspension would make this big a difference?
To be fair, it’s not just the o ring suspension. Pete’s kit also includes ceramic balls to replace the steel balls in the turntable main bearing and suspension towers. Also small sorbothane pieces to install on the suspension post (which I am not using yet). I think the change of ball in the main bearing has also made a difference, why that would be I’m not sure.
I must say that dealing with Peter has been fantastic. I ordered the kit through TruePoint Audio, but when I had trouble getting it up and running Pete became directly involved. He has sent me revised bases, different o rings and numerous emails to help me get everything working right. It is obvious the Pete is not in this for commercial success, but because he is a true hobbyist who loves these tables and tweaking them and wants to help other owners get the best out of their tables. Pete has a long running thread on The Art of Sound website detailing his tweaking of the decks and the development of his pylons. Very interesting read for anyone owning these tables.
Best of all, these changes are all easily reversible and the table can be converted back to the stock springs and steel balls in about an hour. I don’t think many people will do that once you hear the changes. And the cost? xxx pounds plus postage. About $xxx US in total. Talk about bang for the buck! It’s a joke for the increase in performance you get.
Highly recommended to anyone looking to taker these tables to the nest level. Or looking to move up to a better table. Try this first!

[gninnam]

:D Great news - another happy customer of these great upgrades!!

[gwernaffield]

hi it is a pitty that michell has not increassed the spider thickness as they did with the weight of the platter to help the suspension from not bowing on some orbes, this was the 2nd one with this problem , it is always the orbe that throws this problem of the
adjuster being not perpendicular to the face of the spider over time, it drops ,

it may not of been machined properly in the first place, either way ,the sprigs would lean to one side and not be in the correct position , to get the proper bounce needed,
when the change over is done to petes pylons , this can only be got around by removing the bearing in the base of the pylon , with 2 other berings left in place,

The pictures that show what weight each pylon will take, and if one of the orings break it will cause no harm ,due to the 5 o rings that will be left , they do not unravel like a piece of waxed cord ,
all sets are bespoke to the deck , but Truepoint have the sizes for a std version , which although work , they may not help reduce the wow,

atb :)
pete

[gwernaffield]

so this is were i am upto with getting an acrylic platter made just for the gyro , it still has to have the holes done for the weights , i am not sure of the thickness ,it should be about 40 to 45mm, with out the grooves, i think it weighs the same mass as the michell orbe upgrade ,as their is no large hole in the center , but have not yet weighed it as it is still in Truepoint

https://ttvogg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mb4VpT5gAcXneiZO3eA613WuKnP33Phsg-qTU_GdpEScFSK7fAF9Zq-7aLE1Q6U5rYd8K4qX5tiVpImtoPyfVs9ecsE9MTSCpdVd5TPGr 0LuFN3kUwdTOhuOi2EGKTDVJU0y5yR6kXLe_3WwlSn2tYLXU3C j1pUEb-XitTazMHP0EFSZQUHQb2v09HB5gUAjEThONCw7j0tyfqZ0PzQ8 o8w?width=664&height=555&cropmode=none

pete

[mad-moon]

so this is were i am upto with getting an acrylic platter made just for the gyro , it still has to have the holes done for the weights , i am not sure of the thickness ,it should be about 40 to 40mm, with out the grooves, i think it weighs the same mass as the michell orbe upgrade ,as their is no large hole in the center , but have not yet weighed it as it is still in Truepoint

https://ttvogg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mb4VpT5gAcXneiZO3eA613WuKnP33Phsg-qTU_GdpEScFSK7fAF9Zq-7aLE1Q6U5rYd8K4qX5tiVpImtoPyfVs9ecsE9MTSCpdVd5TPGr 0LuFN3kUwdTOhuOi2EGKTDVJU0y5yR6kXLe_3WwlSn2tYLXU3C j1pUEb-XitTazMHP0EFSZQUHQb2v09HB5gUAjEThONCw7j0tyfqZ0PzQ8 o8w?width=664&height=555&cropmode=none

pete

Oooooooo you tease.....

[gwernaffield]

https://szvogg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mh_Fs-gk0nQcnuLETOGsI0UPqeRMAINc7iot6kBF7xiYOCT-8U1RkDwrDu7GV7BHx4hkTREqC7MLcVgcSe2lDVO5h-9O7UOR2LEL3choP220faiVXO-wAzivC4h3DqK8Kakalbjse_PjvVcDzPOGWKLk7_xAz5v2cpmPl bzUsgNBxUTsLsy1YNUoRT8QaWPki-cGbAJ5DdvJa2Y8cQjQmUw?width=1000&height=750&cropmode=none

https://sjvogg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mDRjLsAiCAdkA92EgH1vDMwfhoF2kUsgHm2JL4psud3iV5r6 ixjnjdTSMj0LzXuD8jWlse7aDztOMrcZu0l2iltdMXrrq9CuV8 HaVpW8Br1p1YutkfQzMlXgnMoilHCReUkHXeATtzdy15c06UWT 1dvDbXzQPYkmwDIMyiVdW9hcesPzOwRuf_ruQ6ALUhiisnBhDN eG33kzE8X_ekPtoww?width=1000&height=750&cropmode=none

just picked it up and could not resist placing it on the turntable, it is not yet finished i want to have the michell gyro weights inserted into the base of the platter to keep the gyro look and add more mass, but it is heavey now,
speed is very stable , i now have to remove it and give it a good wash in soapy water ,to remove all the oils, it has made a difference not to have the drive grooves,for the speed, it is 33.4 ,so i need to use the speed trimmer on the HR power supply to set it correct , but now the deck is a true odyssey ,
p

[AJSki2fly]

Looks like Starship Odyssey is nearing ready for take off, "It's a Gyrodec Jim, but not as we know it" :lol:

[gwernaffield]

yep it is not as we know a unmodified gyro to sound like either , i think this is the last ( but i have said that before ) the Gyro and the Orbe deserve to be brought up date,


the platter weighs in at 4.1kg just 400 grms under the orbe, platter, with the weighs i think it will weigh in about 5kg , half a kg more than the orbe platter ,

[gninnam]

Looking good Peter :D

[mad-moon]

Stunning...I want one...:drool:

[Rocky]

I made something similar to that years ago for my Gyro. I still preferred the original over it, but can understand why people may like the acrylic.

I advise using the two belt pulley wheel setup with it - it keeps it running stable with little slippage without the belt grooves. There was a guy who used to sell them on eBay, but you will probably be able to make your own.

[gwernaffield]

hi Rocky the speed is with in point 1% and is very stable , i have a double pully off Tarzan , and matched belts off Michell, it was made due to the cost of the orbe platter working out at £440 , with out the clamp, and the gyro one is now £300+ with out the weights, what i hate about the original platter is the drive grooves that are left over from when the motor was screwed to the chassis and the cam effect off the spring pylons tighten the belt up , when the motor went into a pod the grooves are not needed, because most people will just move the pod a little bit to get the correct tension on the belt , so if michell in their wisdom would remove the drive groove the belt would center it self in the correct position , but that will never happen ,
the weight of the platter could be increassed with added weights ,that will never happen, the difference is the gyro platter and the orbe in weight is about 1kg ,
The acrylic platter is something i wanted to do for the past 2 years,so i plucked up courage to buy the 50mm thick acrylic and then get it machinied, it is only 50% complete with the holes still to be drilled and tapped in the base to fit the weights into
so far it has just been surprisingly very good, over the std gyo ,,as yours would not of had the upgraded suspension in place, it would be impossible to compair them like for like, i still have to fit the double pully ,which was given me by Tarzan, with plans for a tripple or quad pully next year , Michell said they would increase wow as one belt slips against the other, i may just leve it for now, i know the wow is very very low as it is , i have heard several hidden high notes in a couple of albums that was not their before,
the clarity is better, i cannot put exactly what is the difference due to all the mods on the deck , from the arm board to the bearing ,and doughnut in the motor pod , and skateboard feet , all have changed the oddyssey to a differrent deck ,

https://udvogg.db.files.1drv.com/y4mAKQ9xGyUwr3qmPuwokpbPd5fYASphcUMp5A3CTjk1Ja73cY aFJ67cmb0mvfdsff0-Yo1nteog7rePjRUBQWrOXvkoHYLYMLlYzLUyzTmzHRCV0tk486 B8aM-1dGx4wUo0Se8di4ZoeTVTwF7xPs7_l4zvkFrU9DvHTurZEAaEx WptFwy9nxfXcHjnFeMi5bcVe3sCdc3IceesEIvLxsaeA?width =1024&height=768&cropmode=none

[gwernaffield]

Oh Merry Christmas and a Happy new year to every one on AOS

[TAD12]

Looks as if the phrase " I Want one of those " applies in respect of the platter. Nice job. Well done Peter, again.

tad.

[gwernaffield]

Hi Tad have a happy christmas , and a happy new year , their are no plans as yet to make this until this has been used by several people ,it is not completely finished, i want to put the weights into the base of the platter, to keep the gyro look , also trying to keep a lid on the price, seems to be the key , but at this moment their is only this one made,

Better speed consistency.This additional mass gives the platter more inertia, which results in better speed consistency 4.17kg

Cleaner and more detailed sound. Acrylic is great for minimizing unwanted vibrations thanks to its relatively high density and low stiffness. The combination of these two mechanical properties allow the platter to trap and dissipate vibrational energy that would otherwise creep into playback. This results in improved detail and clarity from your records.
https://uturnaudio.com/blogs/uturn/choosing-a-turntable-platter-mdf-or-acrylic
atb
p

[TAD12]

I'll watch this space then.
HNY.

[gwernaffield]

Merry Christmas and a happy new year to everyone on AOS

pete

[Transparent67]

Good morning Pete, hope your good.
I thought I would tap a few words over following my first listening session since implementing your upgrade ideas.

Suffice to say, after what was supposed to be an hours session, I ended up finishing at 2 am this morning (how may times have we all heard that statement?), so I really didn't feel like getting up at 6 today.

By nature I am a little conservative & not prone to gushing or following the herd, but I have to say it was a very interesting & enjoyable few hours.

I was listening Via my Stax headphones which give masses of information & my Tom Evans phonostage (also well known for extracting information & zero noise floor).

The first thing which I noticed (as we all do ) is the amount of background sound information (micro dynamics?) coming into the fore from the shadows due to the lowering of the noise floor.**
Next ( which really struck a chord with me) was the separation of the individual instruments & the space between them was quite uncanny, I really noticed this when I listened to the Eric Clapton Unplugged LP, especially as I can now hear more than one foot tapping on the stage & more backing singers than I originally thought - in a word excellent.

Dark side of the moon again revealed a lot more than before, I noticed the extra solidity of the heartbeats at the start which had more presence & weight, so assume there has been an increase in the bass & lets not even mention The Wall, Whoah! that sure is a busy layered composition.

While listening to Jack Johnson's LP in between days ( a favourite of mine due to its simplicity & the quality of production) was the decay in the cymbals, which although has always been nice & sustained, now seem to shimmer & decay more slowly & evenly.
Also the feeling of being in that small studio & hearing the actual room acoustics the musicians were playing in was a real treat.

** I noticed a slight increase in surface noise varying from pressing to pressing, I attribute this to the additional lowering of the noise floor, but when I listen through my loudspeakers I doubt it will be intrusive.

Certain female vocals which can sometimes sound bright / hard (Kate Bush, Suzanne Vega) now have a more focused & less edgy quality, do not confuse this with rounding off the treble but a more natural presentation if that makes sense.
I have always liked Suzanne Vega due to the cut glass nature of her voice & this is still the case, but now almost tangible.

Well that's where I am with your updates to date Pete, my sincere thanks for all of your research & hard work which has made another music lover happy & smile into the early hours & I suspect will continue this weekend.
Thank you again.

[gwernaffield]

Hi all please note only use the zx1 super lube if you have the HR power supply ,so you can adjust the speed, the ZX1 will reduce friction on the bearing ( less Noise) ,will make the turntable faster ,
thank you for your kind review, i hope the deck now brings you more listerning pleasure ,

atb
Pete

[gwernaffield]

i have just been on the michell web site it says Get Ready... Something Really Cool Is Coming Soon. Sorry for any inconvenience! To contact us please call: 02089530771,, i hope it is new upgrades but what price i dont no ,it may even be a new deck ,

[Transparent67]

Hi everyone, you've probably read this many times, but here's my experience....

Well I am smiling as I type this as I have been since Saturday when I fitted the seal to the motor housing.
For me it was an unusually smooth, easy process (about 15 minuted start to finish), thank you again so much for the info & pictures which helped.

Well... Firstly I have never been entirely happy since I changed over to the DC motor ( like many others I imagine) I couldn't get on with the increased motor noise which I think after a relatively expensive upgrade does not bode well to start with.

Well with your update installed ....silence....really! I was grinning like the Cheshire cat.

Also, I do not know how, but the audio improvement was noticeable, one of my reference lp's ( Eric Clapton Unplugged) more background details & more clarity, even down to the backing singers;
the audience (which is out of phase & a bit unpleasant to my ears) was much much kinder, even the resonance of the wood body of the acoustic guitar, more real.

Pink Floyd The Wall (side 3) ALL the background info now ( & there is a lot) Crystal clear, bass response improved, How? I don't know.

As you can imagine,hours were happily spent enjoying this upgrade of yours.

When I'm over this grinning stage, the Pylons will definitely have to be ordered.
Thank you Pete.

[AJSki2fly]

When I'm over this grinning stage, the Pylons will definitely have to be ordered.
Thank you Pete.

Having done all the upgrades on my Gyrodec when I had it I would say you are in for a treat, especially with the pylons and ceramic balls.

[gwernaffield]

hi adrian , well stuart has done most of the upgrades and will be ordering the pylons from true point , he has just done the doughnut seal in the DC motor housing, he says it is very quiet , compaired to beforehand,

[Transparent67]

Good morning Pete & all,
Just another quick note of my updates to date.

Firstly thank you Pete for sending over the rubber version of the seal, real nice of You.
I installed the seal in the housing & also re installed the foam type seal beneath it , which when you fit the housing base, both seals sandwiched, nice & firm, therefore no chance of movement.

Suffice to say I am real happy with the result - again.
I've ordered the Pylons from Charles at True Point this morning (was going to wait until I was settled with the new sound, but can't) so really hoping this will make as positive upgrade as others have experienced & enjoyed.

Its been an educating & very happy few weeks.
Thanks again Pete!

[gwernaffield]

Hi Stuart thanks for the feedback it is always welcome, good or bad, yes it is amazing how the doughnut seal helps to support the motor and also make it a lot quieter for the DC motor , the Rubber sock is now supported, with out any large amount of money being paid out , i know the pylons have now arrived , and you had a slight problem with the one of the casting holes being smaller than ordered , the other 2 fitting properly , the decision was to carefully file the pylon base to make it fit , part of the problem is that the Michell holes in the chassis are all different sizes, even though the bases are made to the sizes given , the holes in the chassis can be slightly tapered , or a small lump of casting has not been machined off , it is something Truepoint cannot foresee,we are here to help
ATB
pete

[Transparent67]

Hi Pete & all, as you know the pylons have been delivered & due to a fault with the T/T casting, there was a VERY minor issue fitting the rear pylon, well with a very little TLC its now installed.

I have left the T/T to settle & can't wait to get back to listening - feeling like a kid on Xmas eve........
Be in touch real soon.
Thanks

[gwernaffield]

Hi Stuart , it is getting to be a common issue , with the holes all being different , it is very hard to account for that , and impossible to make a std set for all, which can be done , how ever i don't like them being a loose fit,
As it is true-point have to try and account for the Michell adjuster being any size from 9.9 mm to 10,3 mm depending on the chrome,
To keep the price as it is and let true-point set the CNC up they are all made over size, then resized by a normal lathe on tooling ,
i have been there and watched Charlie doing them ,
it also means they can be adjusted to the size needed, how ever it is double machine time, which added to the price True point charges , but that is down to the Chassis being out. and then the position of the posts as well,

i hope you are happy a happy cat ,

ATB
pete

[Transparent67]

Hey Pete & everybody,
Just a very quick note to say Pylons now installed (easily) & currently settling in.
VERY tempted to give you my account of things to date, but many reference albums to go through (as we all do with this hobby) before I report back.
Suffice to say " Things are good.
Cheers.

Stuart

[gwernaffield]

Hi Stuart , i cannot wait , to see if they are as good as your expectations,.i like to read what owners have put good or bad, pete