View Full Version : What does Flat earth mean to you?
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 20:32
For many it is an exclusive association with certain brands of hi-fi. For others it is a state of mind, listening priorities and the logical subjectivist conclusion - that your hi-fi is chosen using your ears for its ability to hold your attention and involve you in the music. It is entirely feasible that a Linn component could come second in a Tune Dem and a Naim product be out-PRATed.
This is my take on the flat earth which is also the stance taken by PFM (as I understood it at the time) in its early days.
Certain manufacturers would have us believe that if these were your listening piorities then only their brand would do. The arrogance on the part of certain dealers (presumably obeying orders from the manufacturer above in order to keep the franchise) extended to not even allowing comparisons with kit from other manufacturers. The only comparisons they allowed was with their own kit higher or lower in the (price) hierarchy.
Most people will stigmatise the term flat earth due to its association with Linn/Naim. The purpose of this poll/thread is to find out what our members' perceptions are and to examine them and see if they are still relevant today.
The flat earth mentality is rife with owners of largely incompetent products - of a certain age - which tailored imperfect sources to sound "nice" all the time. That's my take on the purist of the FE clan, who also give the online impression of more than a bit of Autism (speaking as a self confessed Aspergic with narrow tastes and poor social skills outside of audio.....)
Perhaps I'm being far too harsh, but you know what they say about ex-smokers talking about smoking......
I never heard the term "Flat Earth" before.
The Naim/Linn thing is of very limited value : probably has some sense in certain UK circles but it's a drop in an ocean internationally.
On the other hand, the subjectivist-objectivist split since the 70s, it's something broad enough and exists in all countries.
Personally i dislike being part of either : I've met plenty of honest, respectful and knowledgeable people belonging on both sides of this split.
So I prefer being called a "hifi afficionado" or a "music lover" rather than a subjectivist or objectivist.
I mean, when I hear some objectivists say that "if it measures ok, it's ok" or when I see some subjectivists say that a cable costing £20000 would be beneficial in a £5000-system... I really don't want to be on any of these extremes. :ner:
But, if I had to choose, I would rather be called a "reasonable" subjectivist. ;)
We'd also like some feedback please from members on the views expressed here by admin in reference to 'Nailing our colours to the mast'
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=85690#post85690
Do people see what we're getting at and understand how it aligns with the basic ethos of AoS?
Your thoughts and/or constructive criticism are welcome...
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
The term 'flat earthers' is a recognizable slang, referent to persons or organizations who cling to antiquarian beliefs which have long since been disproven.
See also
http://www.answers.com/topic/flat-earth
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flat-earth
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flat-earth
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/04/flat-earth-climate-change-copenhagen (Gordon Brown attacks 'flat-earth' climate change sceptics)
I feel the generally accepted definition of flat earth is quite obvious. My 'perception' of the term is based on the dictionary and historical definition.
In Hi-Fi terms therefore it refers to those who fully believe and will defend and promote the crap that manufacturers such as Linn and Naim (and others such as AVI! - that was an amazing thread wasn't it?) spout.
We'd also like some feedback please from members on the views expressed here by admin in reference to 'Nailing our colours to the mast'
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=85690#post85690
Do people see what we're getting at and understand how it aligns with the basic ethos of AoS?
Your thoughts and/or constructive criticism are welcome...
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I dislike group think as a concept, and disagree with some of Steven's specific points (eg I don't always want music to put a grin on my face).
Oh, and I use a SET amp!
I feel the generally accepted definition of flat earth is quite obvious.
In Hi-Fi terms therefore it refers to those who fully believe and will defend and promote the crap that manufacturers such as Linn and Naim (and others such as AVI! - that was an amazing thread wasn't it?) spout.
That's certainly my understanding of the term. If Steven and Marco choose to believe it means something else, they risk confusing people. 'Flat Earther' seems an odd label to want to attach to yourself, in any case.
'Flat Earther' seems an odd label to want to attach to yourself, in any case.
Maybe they believe the Earth really is flat?
Maybe they believe the Earth really is flat?
Maybe. To me, the term implies someone who refuses to accept overwhelming scientific evidence and/or someone who is living irretrievably in the past.
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 21:43
(eg I don't always want music to put a grin on my face).
or make the hairs on your arms/neck stand on end?
or make you tap your feet?
or any other emotional response depending on the type of music?
or make the hairs on your arms/neck stand on end?
or make you tap your feet?
or any other emotional response depending on the type of music?
Ah, but that's not how you phrased it. You wrote:
'This is essentially a Flat Earth subjectivist forum where we trust our ears in pursuit of recorded music reproduction that gets the feet tapping and/or the hairs rising on the back of your neck and plants a big grin on your face.' The grin being thus in addition to, rather than an alternative to, the feet tapping or the hairs rising.
anthonyTD
08-12-2009, 21:50
flat earth what does it mean to me?
maybe someone sat on it.:scratch::ner::eek::lolsign:
seriously though, i cant help but relate it to the human race's exceptance that the world was flat, and that if you went too far near the edge you would fall off! obviously that atitude quickly changed once the world had been explored properly! so, if we are going to refer to this flat earth slogan as an asset, please,,, those that know its true meaning explain it to us dafties.:eyebrows:
A...
The Vinyl Adventure
08-12-2009, 21:50
I have always been a bit confused by waht it meant in terms of hifi, mostly based on my previous belife that it meant someone who was a bit stuck in the past! Since I have known more about hifi I had not realy thought that much about it, just asuming it meant something technical that I prob wouldn't understand!
Now this has come up, I'm not really that much clearer on it! Steve, marco, are you saying you are more firmly into hifi that is based on traditional priciples of good sound quality?
I am certainly confused!
Surely it is ok to just want a hifi that sounds good without needing to tie oneself into any specific genre of hifi owner?
I'll tell you a story :
Once I listened to a song through a average headphone with a low-fi (really low-fi) portable cassette player.
I was very impressed, kind of "arm hairs stand" as Steve says.
This resulted in a kind of "impregnation" (not sure about the word) of the -low- playing fidelity with the song : since then, I try to find these imperfections in the sound and I'm not satisfied when I listen to this song in a perfect system.
Strange ?
(when I wrote this, I thought it had something to do with this thread. Has it ? :scratch: )
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 21:53
The term flat earth was originally used disparagingly by the more objectivist detractors but it was then adopted in a we're flat earthers and proud of it kind of way.
Surely it is ok to just want a hifi that sounds good without needing to tie oneself into any specific genre of hifi owner?
Indeed. I have no problem with 'subjectivist' (as a thoroughly non-techie arts graduate I can't be doing with graphs and specs) but 'Flat Earth' seems an unnecessary and confusing term.
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 21:56
Hamish, just to confuse you a bit more I'd describe you as a typical flat earther!
You go for pace and involvement and listen through your system to the musical performance.
Ah, but that's not how you phrased it. You wrote:
'This is essentially a Flat Earth subjectivist forum where we trust our ears in pursuit of recorded music reproduction that gets the feet tapping and/or the hairs rising on the back of your neck and plants a big grin on your face.' The grin being thus in addition to, rather than an alternative to, the feet tapping or the hairs rising.
Joe, you are pedantically picking holes. If the system is capable of giving you dewy eyes, making your hairs stand up etc./making your feet tap it is likely to put a grin on your face, no?
The term flat earth was originally used disparagingly by the more objectivist detractors but it was then adopted in a we're flat earthers and proud of it kind of way.
I never was a flat earther, so include me out, as Sam Goldwyn said.
'When they tried to hang that sign on me, I said take it down' as Donald Fagen sang
To me, the term implies someone who refuses to accept overwhelming scientific evidence and/or someone who is living irretrievably in the past.
This is not me. Moreover, I know nobody like this.
Although our past is irremediably part of us.
The Vinyl Adventure
08-12-2009, 21:58
steve, you succeded!
I don't get it!
Joe, you are pedantically picking holes. If the system is capable of giving you dewy eyes, making your hairs stand up etc./making your feet tap it is likely to put a grin on your face, no?
Not if it's Verdi's Requiem, no.
The Vinyl Adventure
08-12-2009, 22:04
Let's not scuffle guys I don't even get what this all means yet!
Let's not scuffle guys I don't even get what this all means yet!
I'm not scuffling!
Not if it's Verdi's Requiem, no.
What if it's the hip-hop version?
Marco.
What if it's the hip-hop version?
Marco.
For that version, you need a big frown and loads of bling.
'Yo, sinnah, you gonna burn in Hell. Word!'
Ain't the the gospel version, brother?
The hip-hop version's got goddamn more attitude, motherfucker!
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
08-12-2009, 22:21
What the fuck is verdi's requiem? This while thread might as well be in bloody Swahili!
What the fuck is verdi's requiem? This while thread might as well be in bloody Swahili!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_(Verdi)
It's not in any way designed to put a smile on your face.
Ain't the the gospel version, brother?
The hip-hop version's got goddamn more attitude, motherfucker!
Marco.
You disrespectin' ma song?
Like you're gonna pop a cap in my ass!!
Marco.
Like you're gonna pop a cap in my ass!!
Marco.
You'd love it!
Ain't that the truth! :eyebrows:
Marco.
In Hi-Fi terms therefore it refers to those who fully believe and will defend and promote the crap that manufacturers such as Linn and Naim (and others such as AVI! - that was an amazing thread wasn't it?) spout.
Rightly or wrongly, that's what I understood the term to mean until the recent threads on here put some doubt on it.
I guess that just goes to prove how deep-rooted the 'indoctrination' has been, Alex!
We're simply portraying a more 'abstract' view, and taking in the bigger picture ;)
Marco.
P.S Please continue to doubt and reconsider your preconceptions.
I guess that just goes to prove how deep-rooted the 'indoctrination' has been, Alex!
We're simply portraying a more 'abstract' view and taking in the bigger picture ;)
Marco.
Ironically, the original Flat Earthers would have laughed out loud at the very idea of basing a system on a DD turntable, valve amplification and big old Tannoy speakers. It seems an odd lot to want to identify with.
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 23:17
Joe, you frequent PFM. How many of the original Flat Earthers from the early days of that forum now use valves and Tannoys or horns? Is it because they've migrated to pipe 'n slippers in their old age or because purely from a Flat Earth perspective there is life beyond Linn/Naim?
Even if we stay with solid state there are umpteen other brands that embrace Flat Earth virtues. Densen for example and their motto,
Life's too short for boring hi-fi!
You don't gt much more Flat Earth than that.
Joe, you frequent PFM. How many of the original Flat Earthers from the forum's inception now use valves and Tannoys or horns?
I dunno. I can think of two off-hand (Tony L and Joe Petrik). There may be others. I was around PFM in its early days, but had a few years away, so I may have missed a few other converts.
Ironically, the original Flat Earthers would have laughed out loud at the very idea of basing a system on a DD turntable, valve amplification and big old Tannoy speakers. It seems an odd lot to want to identify with.
Yes, Joe, but the mistake you're making is connecting the term 'flat-earth' to a group of people or a particular brand of equipment (this is merely the historical and simplistic view), instead of recognising it as a state of mind as Steve and I have explained it :)
That's the essence of what this is about: abandoning hard-bitten beliefs and redefining the meaning of 'flat-earth'. All we ask is that people consider this.
Marco.
Yes, Joe, but the mistake you're making is connecting the term 'flat-earth' to a group of people or a particular brand of equipment (this is merely the historical and simplistic view), instead of recognising it as a state of mind as Steve and I have explained it :)
That's the essence of what this is about: abandoning hard-bitten beliefs and redefining the meaning of 'flat-earth'. All we ask is that people consider this.
Marco.
It seems a bit Humpty-Dumptyish to me:
'Humpty Dumpty took the book and looked at it carefully. `That seems to be done right --' he began.
`You're holding it upside down!' Alice interrupted.
`To be sure I was!' Humpty Dumpty said gaily as she turned it round for him. `I thought it looked a little queer. As I was saying, that seems to be done right -- though I haven't time to look it over thoroughly just now -- and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents --'
`Certainly,' said Alice.
`And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'
`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
In any case, why use a term to describe AoS that is obviously confusing for some people, and has negative connotations for others? It seems an unnecessary complication.
I dunno. I can think of two off-hand (Tony L and Joe Petrik). There may be others. I was around PFM in its early days, but had a few years away, so I may have missed a few other converts.
Jonathan Ribee, for one. More would come to mind if I sat and thought about it properly. These guys were at one time all high-profile (diehard) 'flat-earthers' (and Naim users).
However, the flat-earth 'conversions' of Tony L and Joe Petrik epitomise exactly what Steve and I are talking about. They've undoubtedly redefined the principles of what 'flat-earth' means to them (perhaps subconsciously). We've moved the same way.
In any case, why use a term to describe AoS that is obviously confusing for some people, and has negative connotations for others? It seems an unnecessary complication.
We're simply encouraging people to think laterally - no pain, no gain, I guess... If 'flat-earth' has become dirty words, then why not clean them up?
Marco.
alfie2902
08-12-2009, 23:49
Yes, Joe, but the mistake you're making is connecting the term 'flat-earth' to a group of people or a particular brand of equipment (this is merely the historical and simplistic view), instead of recognising it as a state of mind as Steve and I have explained it :)
That's the essence of what this is about: abandoning hard-bitten beliefs and redefining the meaning of 'flat-earth'. All we ask is that people consider this.
Marco.
So lets forget what the term "Flat Earth" has meant, in its different guises, over the years in Hi-Fi history !?.
Lets now abandon hard-bitten beliefs and redefine the meaning of 'flat-earth' so it means exactly what Steve & Marco want it to mean!?
Lets take the bits "we" like & now call it the definitive meaning of "Flat Earth"
Is that what your saying?
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 23:49
Also, on the subject of Tony L, it was he who defined the Flat Earth as being a state of mind not choice of brand.
It is possible and indeed quite common to be a Linn/Naim fanboy who does not embrace flat earth principles. They may merely be unquestioning sheep who have bypassed the mental process and just jumped on the bandwaggon.
Steve Toy
08-12-2009, 23:50
So lets forget what the term "Flat Earth" has meant, in its different guises, over the years in Hi-Fi history !?.
Lets now abandon hard-bitten beliefs and redefine the meaning of 'flat-earth' so it means exactly what Steve & Marco want it to mean!?
Lets take the bits "we" like & now call it the definitive meaning of "Flat Earth"
Is that what your saying?
No.
alfie2902
08-12-2009, 23:58
No.
Thats pretty much how this thread reads so far!
The term "Flat Earth" has been used in different ways to mean different things over the years. There is no definitive meaning thats why there's so much confusion to what the term means! IMO
I have to say, I am struggling a bit too, when the dictionary definition is clearly not what you want to portray - a flat-earther is "One who stubbornly adheres to outmoded or discredited ideas:" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flat-earth) - surely, that is the total opposite of what you are trying to say it means? Or have I missed something? :confused:
There is no definitive meaning
No, there is a very clear definitive meaning. If you don't believe me, then look it up and see for yourself.
That's the essence of what this is about: abandoning hard-bitten beliefs and redefining the meaning of 'flat-earth'. All we ask is that people consider this.
I've considered it and rejected it. You can't start redefining a term that is so well defined that the term itself is a definition of the term. And to redefine it to mean the exact opposite of what it traditionally does mean is just plain crazy. IMO.
Yes, Joe, but the mistake you're making is connecting the term 'flat-earth' to a group of people or a particular brand of equipment (this is merely the historical and simplistic view), instead of recognising it as a state of mind as Steve and I have explained it
Connecting the term 'flat-earth' to a group of people is not a mistake, it's reality. People who believe the earth is flat are called 'flat-earthers'.
If you want to discuss state of minds, then flat-earthers have a closed mind. They believe the earth is flat despite any evidence to the contrary.
By describing AOS as a flat-earth forum the vast majority of people out there will take that to mean a narrow minded and closed to new ideas forum.
If you don't believe me, just go into the street and ask 10 people at random. You'll soon see I'm right.
The reality is that AOS and its members are anything but narrow-minded.
Hi Alfie,
Did you read this bit from 'Our Ethos'? If not please read it carefully:
As Steve has said before (who like me is also someone from a 'Naim/flat-earth background'), the type of valve gear him and I use now exhibits all the renowned traits of a good Naim system (pace, rhythm and timing, speed, and 'bass drive'), but with all the things that, for us, Naim gear does less well (tonal colour/richness, texture, image height and depth, etc), so we've now got the best of both worlds... It's essentially valves for discerning 'Naimees'!
This is probably a rather controversial statement, but a good Naim/'flat-earth' system actually has quite a lot in common with the type of valve equipment we use now and champion on AoS, in terms of how effectively the musical message (and the emotive element therein) is conveyed, which is something I think good Naim/'flat-earth' systems do very well. They can be a little rough around the edges (one has to prioritise certain aspects of presentation and thus make compromises when voicing equipment - all manufacturers do), but a good Naim system, in my experience, can be very musically addictive.
Steve and I weren't going to just abandon, all of a sudden, the principles we've adopted and believed in for years! Quite simply, the valve equipment we use now gave us more of what we always loved about the musical presentation of a top-flight, (properly set-up) Naim/'flat-earth' system, so in that sense, we haven't abandoned our 'FE' principles, far from it - and probably never will.... These principles are at the core of what AoS stands for in a hi-fi sense.
Hopefully that should clarify things a little. It's the correlation between what 'flat-earth' traditionally meant in a hi-fi sense (as explained above), and the availability of all that (and more) from a good valve-based set-up that Steve and I are getting at. Therefore 'flat-earth' is a simply a state of mind, not an endorsement of any particular manufacturer's equipment or an association with a close-minded or blinkered attitude :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 00:20
No Kris. The term was used disparagingly in the beginning and was then adopted.
Its use was thus ironic. The dictionary definition outside of the hi-fi context is therefore meaningless.
No, there is a very clear definitive meaning. If you don't believe me, then look it up and see for yourself.
I've considered it and rejected it. You can't start redefining a term that is so well defined that the term itself is a definition of the term. And to redefine it to mean the exact opposite of what it traditionally does mean is just plain crazy. IMO.
Connecting the term 'flat-earth' to a group of people is not a mistake, it's reality. People who believe the earth is flat are called 'flat-earthers'.
If you want to discuss state of minds, then flat-earthers have a closed mind. They believe the earth is flat despite any evidence to the contrary.
By describing AOS as a flat-earth forum the vast majority of people out there will take that to mean a narrow minded and closed to new ideas forum.
If you don't believe me, just go into the street and ask 10 people at random. You'll soon see I'm right.
The reality is that AOS and its members are anything but narrow-minded.
Hi Kris,
All that is fine if that's how you feel, but like I said, we're just encouraging people to think laterally. Look that word up, too! ;)
The results of the poll, so far, are encouraging :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 00:22
By describing AOS as a flat-earth forum the vast majority of people out there will take that to mean a narrow minded and closed to new ideas forum.
If you don't believe me, just go into the street and ask 10 people at random. You'll soon see I'm right.
Are those ten random people likely to be into hi-fi?
'flat-earth' is a simply a state of mind, not [. . .]an association with a close-minded or blinkered attitude
If you are right Marco, then why do all the dictionary definitions disagree with you?
But, Kris, we're not talking about dictionary definitions :doh:
Read Steve's earlier post (#48).
Marco.
P.S Do you understand the concept of 'lateral thinking'? This is precisely what we're encouraging people to embrace in relation to the term 'flat-earth'.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 00:29
Ok, um getting there with this now! And I really do understand why it ha taken me this long ...
What you are saying is you are a flat earth person because that's what you used to be, and as you still like what you used to like, but have just expanded on it - you still feel like you are a part of that!
The problem is guys, you can't fight dictionary definition and the comon view of what it means in the hifi world ... Well you can if you like but I suspect it will, in the long run be futile and ultimatly cause more confusion than good
I personally would suggest a term that describes your routes, but isn't going to confuse people as much as I have been!
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 00:30
Oh Well aparently I still don't get it...
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 00:46
Ironic in the first place... Ok I get that now! Naim people calle them selves flat earth people as it wa ironic ... Ok history leson up to date for Hamish right?
Buy the ironic thing is that now flat earth in hifi terms means naim or linn in a bad way, so it is infact now ironic that that frase was used in the first place... Am I there?
This is where the problem lies! It's far to bloody confusing!!
It not my place to say guys but I think you might be on to a loser just purly for the fact that most people so far have found it very confusing!
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 00:48
And I still don't know if I follow ...
How does lateral thinking come into this?
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 00:50
Marco,
"Flat earth" started out as a derogatory term. Nowadays, it's accepted as meaning those whose systems put PRAT (pace rhythm and timing) first and 'Hi-Fi' second, where 'Hi-Fi' is stuff like imaging, soundstage, resolution, detail and tone. The latter are nowadays often referred to as "Round earth", the implication being that the two earths will never meet.
But it seems to me that more & more the lines are getting blurred & I want PRAT,resolution, detail, tone & imaging, soundstage aswell so am I "Flat or Round Earth". I believe both you & Steve now want & get attributes from both sides & are now trying to redefine the term "Flat Earth" to suit your positions that I see as now somewhere in the middle of the two!
Hamish,
What you are saying is you are a flat earth person because that's what you used to be, and as you still like what you used to like, but have just expanded on it - you still feel like you are a part of that!
Yes, and that there are now other (better) ways to 'skin the same cat'...
Answer this for me: Is there anything, sonically or musically, that your new valve amps can't do better than your Naim amps did?
As Steve has correctly said, having met you, heard your system and identified your listening priorities, that you appreciate music through the ears of a typical 'flat-earther'. However, you abandoned a brand of equipment synonymous with offering a presentation best suited to satisfying your listening priorities, in favour of valves, yet have succeeded in retaining the very priorities you value and expanding on them.
Yes? :)
If so, that's exactly what happened to Steve and me when we switched from Naim/Densen gear to valves, so join the 'flat-earth club for lateral thinkers'! ;)
Is it sinking in more now?
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 00:54
OK, flat earth = subjectivist quest for an involving listen.
The irony lies in the dictionary definition and the original disparaging use of the term by the detractors of an objectivist bent.
I hope this clarifies things a bit.
Marco,
"Flat earth" started out as a derogatory term. Nowadays, it's accepted as meaning those whose systems put PRAT (pace rhythm and timing) first and 'Hi-Fi' second, where 'Hi-Fi' is stuff like imaging, soundstage, resolution, detail and tone. The latter are nowadays often referred to as "Round earth", the implication being that the two earths will never meet.
But it seems to me that more & more the lines are getting blurred & I want PRAT,resolution, detail, tone & imaging, soundstage aswell so am I "Flat or Round Earth". I believe both you & Steve now want & get attributes from both sides & are now trying to redefine the term "Flat Earth" to suit your positions that I see as now somewhere in the middle of the two!
Kind of, Alfie, but there's a little more to it than that. You're getting there, though (although I think Hamish is beating you to it)! ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 01:00
Ha, if I'm beating other people to understanding this then I would politly suggest that they are fucked... Gimmi a sec let me re read some stuff!!
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 01:04
I'm going to do some searching and linking to stuff on PFM.
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 01:07
Kind of, Alfie, but there's a little more to it than that. You're getting there, though (although I think Hamish is beating you to it)! ;)
Marco.
I'm not getting anywhere, I'm fine & happy where I am, Somewhere in the middle of what I understand as 'Flat or Round Earth' I will, & always have, used my ears to chose my Hi-Fi but I also read the measurements too. I want 'PRAT' but also the 'Hi-Fi' attributes!
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 01:14
I'm not getting anywhere, I'm fine & happy where I am, Somewhere in the middle of what I understand as 'Flat or Round Earth' I will, & always have, used my ears to chose my Hi-Fi but I also read the measurements too. I want 'PRAT' but also the 'Hi-Fi' attributes!
...and here's the rub and why many flat earthers have gone down the valve route. Valves give you better PRAT, dynamics more tune and to boot all the presentational aspects like soundstaging etc.
I'd regard tonality and texture to be communication rather than presentation though as they convey the musical message with even more impact.
As for detail, surely this, over some notion of measured accuracy brings greater insight into the music, does it not?
Alfie, your sig definitely places you firmly in the flat earth camp according to our definition and in accordance with the poll results so far.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 01:19
Hamish,
Yes, and that there are now other (better) ways to 'skin the same cat'...
Answer this for me: Is there anything, sonically or musically, that your new valve amps can't do better than your Naim amps did?
As Steve has correctly said, having met you, heard your system and identified your listening priorities, that you appreciate music through the ears of a typical 'flat-earther', yet you abandoned a brand of equipment synonymous with offering a presentation best suited to satisfying your listening priorities, in favour of valves, yet have succeeded in retaining the very priorities you value and expanding on them.
Yes? :)
If so, that's exactly what happened to Steve and me when we switched from Naim gear to valves, so join the 'flat-earth club for lateral thinkers'! ;)
Is it sinking in more now?
Marco.
Ok, I can see a lateral conection to flat earth.
But guys seriously if you are asking for constructive critism then take my confusion as that constructive critism! I know I am not the most well informed audiophile, but I'd like to think that I like the others who haven't grasped what you are getting at arnt the least well informed! And if we aren't the least well informed then there are going to be a lot of less well informed who might well be even more confused!
If the idea is to put accros you stance on hifi, then it might be worth coming up with an easier way of describing it!
It's your call at the end of the day, but like I say your current flag colours are a bit to blurred to make out ... In my view at least
I'm not getting anywhere, I'm fine & happy where I am, Somewhere in the middle of what I understand as 'Flat or Round Earth' I will, & always have, used my ears to chose my Hi-Fi but I also read the measurements too. I want 'PRAT' but also the 'Hi-Fi' attributes!
LOL... I meant "getting somewhere" in terms of seeing how we (AoS) define the term 'flat-earth' :)
The systems belonging to Steve and I major more now, sonically and musically, on traditional 'flat-earth principles' than they ever did when we used Naim or Densen - two brands synonymous with the stereotypical 'flat-earth' sonic approach to audio.
That is largely the point we're trying to get across.
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 01:27
LOL... I meant "getting somewhere" in terms of seeing how we (AoS) define the term 'flat-earth' :)
The systems belonging to Steve and I major more now, sonically and musically, on traditional 'flat-earth principles' than they ever did when we used Naim or Densen - two brands synonymous with the stereotypical 'flat-earth' sonic approach to audio.
That is largely the point we're trying to get across.
...and in addition we derive more in the way of texture, tonality and harmonics (musical communication) as well as imaging/staging (presentation.)
I guess it's a case of getting the best of both worlds, or earths.
There is a loose correlation between flat earth/round earth and subjectivism/objectivism.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 01:31
Best if both worlds.. Now see, there's a nice litle tag line! That would make much more sence to me... Perhaps it's a bit obvious, but maybe that is what is needed??
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 01:39
As a side note (I do like my side notes :) ) confusion can lead to people feeling departed from a veiw, am sure most of the regulars wouldn't hold it against you but you don't want new comers not understanding and feeling separated from what might apear a shared view! It could also lead to people seeing you as being elitist or snobby (not that you are being at all) and it would be a shame to give off a false view of something that I have recently experienced as benificial to my music enjoyment... Especially as the main thin I love about this forum is that it is about getting great sound for pound! Sound for pound ideals could be blured and you could be left with a forum that doesn't have a solid and easy to understand reason for people to stay... Which is so far something that I personally think you have achived quite well!!
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 01:43
...and here's the rub and why many flat earthers have gone down the valve route. Valves give you better PRAT, dynamics more tune and to boot all the presentational aspects like soundstaging etc.
I'd regard tonality and texture to be communication rather than presentation though as they convey the musical message with even more impact.
Alfie, your sig definitely places you firmly in the flat earth camp according to our definition and in accordance with the poll results so far.
Hi Steve,
It all depends on where we see the lines drawn between the two camps! I believe things aren't so clear cut anymore YMMV. As I've been saying peoples definition of 'Flat Earth' varies as there is no clear cut definition. We all know what we think it means!
Where does the Linn front end thing fit in these days! 'Flat Earth' theory had you spending the lions share on the source even if it meant having quite poor amps/speakers. Just a few days ago I listened to a system with a 5K source 80k worth of amps & 190k (I think thats the final price) speakers. It was awesome, breathtaking I have never been so emotionally moved by recorded music ever! Totally unattainable system for me & for most! Couldn't be further away from Linn 'Flat Earth' hierarchy though.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 01:44
There is no way in hell the sort of sound quality as I see it could be achived by going into audioT and spending the money I have spent, I know i have been lucky but I think peope should be made aware of that fact and this forum, in my view, does premote that idea! It would be such a shame to confuse tha ideal for somthing that is effectivly in a lot of peoples eyes the polar oposite!!
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 01:59
Hmm 19 vs 8... If you vote for the second most popular option the first most popular gets 2 votes .. The other 3 votes are marco and steve and a spoiled ballot paper (defaults to ... Yes you guessed it) :lol:
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 02:01
Ooo I feel like a right cheeky git now... Mick would have had a hissy fit and left by now :lol:
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 02:02
The concept is perhaps difficult to explain and to grasp given the history but the intention is that folks get more out of their musical collections in terms of enjoyment on an emotional level. On that basis I'm happy to plug away.
Jean-Paul Sartre in pursuit of his existentialist philosophy (quite difficult to grasp yet quite pure in its principle) acknowledged the limitations of language as a signifier of meaning and believed that fluency, clarity of thought and even sheer verbosity would win through.
I hope through the development of this thread and stripping bare the connotations (both negative and positive) associated with the flat earth doctrine will eventually win through.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 02:09
Hamish, if you take out mine and Marco's votes you are still left with 17/8 in favour of the evaluation approach devoid of brand preconceptions as things currently stand.
The next step is the mains filter by Anthony - such things are taboo in the bandwaggon-laden definition of flat earth for such things are supposedly improving presentation at the expense of communication by killing dynamics in pursuit of a sound that is easier on the ear. Subjective evaluation to date confirms that in fact, Anthony's filter does not kill dynamics but actually enhances them along with all the benefits of a much lowered noise floor allowing better reproduction of harmonics and detail.
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 02:15
...and in addition we derive more in the way of texture, tonality and harmonics (musical communication) as well as imaging/staging (presentation.)
I guess it's a case of getting the best of both worlds, or earths.
There is a loose correlation between flat earth/round earth and subjectivism/objectivism.
Pretty much what I've been getting at Steve tbh.
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 02:19
Mains filters that will be interesting.
Will have to come after upgrading to the R2 crossover & some new amps!
Anyone want some 'Flat Earth' Expo's LOL
Rare Bird
09-12-2009, 02:23
Do you lot actually listern to music or F**k about with hi-fi nonsence all the time?
:lolsign:
Something don't add up with the remarks about this topic somehow! Maybe trying to re-define something thats been defined before!
:scratch:
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 02:31
Do you lot actually listern to music or F**k about with hi-fi nonsence all the time?
That old chestnut eh?
I guess our spare time gets divided up somehow between listening to music, forum frequenting and other stuff. Such is life and its various balances.
Rare Bird
09-12-2009, 02:37
That old chestnut eh?
I guess our spare time gets divided up somehow between listening to music, forum frequenting and other stuff. Such is life and its various balances.
No old chestnut sunshine..ffk sake steve you change your view about things like underpants.What happend to all this Densen rubbish you used to preach & then Spectral was it? now it's the completely the reverse!
What ever your new meaning of the term 'Flat Earth' is i'm sorry to say most know it as an other meaning..
I don't wanna get into a blazing row here but for crying out loud. :rolleyes:
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 02:42
Start reading from the beginning Andre. There's some stuff on Densen in there if you look.
As for Spectral, the pre I had, it was basically like a Naim Nac 52 only better - same ballsy bass and pace only better dynamics and subtlety but compared to the grounded grid a bit ham-fisted.
As for blazing rows mate, you'll be on yer own sunshine! :)
Rare Bird
09-12-2009, 02:47
Start reading from the beginning Andre. There's some stuff on Densen in there if you look.
As for Spectral, the pre I had, it was basically like a naim Nac 52 only better.
No thanks Steve i'm bord to death already with it..This is the next best thing to what you get from Jehovah's Witnesses when they knock on yer door to be honest.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 03:04
Well Andre, I'm not the one knocking doors right now.... -------> :door:
Hi-fi is a learning process. We move forward. Whilst we don't necessarily look back we don't slag off kit we used to own, it's about learning what you want in terms of enjoying your musical enjoyment by looking to get more of the same, even more besides and building on it with an open mind and ears. Jaundiced views just get in the way of that.
Rare Bird
09-12-2009, 03:06
Don't threaten me sunshine.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 03:09
Eh?
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 03:11
Andre, I'm gonna lock you out till I get up tomorrow. Marco can let you back in at first light if he wants. :)
The concept is perhaps difficult to explain and to grasp given the history but the intention is that folks get more out of their musical collections in terms of enjoyment on an emotional level. On that basis I'm happy to plug away.
Jean-Paul Sartre in pursuit of his existentialist philosophy (quite difficult to grasp yet quite pure in its principle) acknowledged the limitations of language as a signifier of meaning and believed that fluency, clarity of thought and even sheer verbosity would win through.
I hope through the development of this thread and stripping bare the connotations (both negative and positive) associated with the flat earth doctrine will eventually win through.
Just drop the 'flat earth' bit and everyone will be happy.
In a word, Joe: 'no'. We didn't expect this to be easy, but the poll clearly shows that the majority of people who voted understand the concept we're putting forward, so the message *is* getting through, slowly but surely, which is what we set out to do.
We enjoy challenging people's preconceptions; it's at the very core of what AoS is about :)
Like I said, this is about employing some lateral thinking. Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp? Me thinks some here are too stuck in their ways for their own good ;)
Just because the term 'flat-earth' has always had a particular definition for you, doesn't necessary mean that it must forever remain so! Let's open our minds and consider allowing some fresh ideas in...
Anyway, the discussion continues and the poll results will be reviewed in the next few days.
Marco.
Flat Earth was sort of started in audio terms when we Linn/Naimies totally dismissed proved scientific fact over products deliberately "altered" to emphasise certain aspects of a recorded performance over the established perameters like imaging and low-colouration.
Also, IMO, the audio market pendulum had swung much too far in the measurement camp where many budget far eastern amps were crippled with loads of feedback to bring distortion levels down. The market really was that bad back then, a friend trawling Totty-Ct Rd for an elusive Sansui direct drive that was better than the Techies because of a tiny bit better W&F performance.
In many ways, Linn & Naim did the audio market a lot of good in shaking things up. However, the risks were that a listening taste and system based around exaggerated pr@t and tunes tended to sound woefully "inaccurate," the music listened to was chanelled very narrowly and these people, when presented with a better balanced setup, tended to find these systems boring, as the boosted mid and chrome-plated treble of a classic "Flat earth" system was more superficially "exciting" to listen to.
The other thing is the "needing to be in-the-club" mentality many fella's exhibit.
'Scuse my clumsy typing above. I think that today, we have a better view - Anthony TD obviously appears to make technically sound amps which juggle the transformer-coupled valve parameters in a sonically satisfyingly way. The current Techie tweaks refine the old audiophile aspirations of this model (amazing how good the 1970's versions can sound when correctly set up and sited) and we now have speakers like Harbeths (and, I'm sure Spendors too) which continue the "round earth" BBC traditions of tonal warmth with a stunning mid accuracy but with a delicasy and fine detail "ease" that the old models don't quite achieve, coupled with an increasing ability (with each generation) to "rock" when asked to..
As for Tannoys, I reckon the current biggies can be outstandingly good, but market conditions and lack of consistant marketing have robbed UK users of a fine range easily driven by many good amps. Why did marco change his crossovers? To improve the sound, but I bet his speakers measure better too.........
Dave,
I think that today, we have a better view - Anthony TD obviously appears to make technically sound amps which juggle the transformer-coupled valve parameters in a sonically satisfyingly way.
Indeed. Now we're getting somewhere... We're saying that, sonically (bugger all to do with the age-old stigmatised view of the word) Anthony's valve-based amps (and others like them), together with other equipment such as (but not exclusively) D/D turntables and big Tannoys, represent valid examples of the 'new flat-earth'! :)
People, let's bin the tired old dogmatic use of the word, once and for all, and embrace a fresh new definition!! :clap:
As for Tannoys, I reckon the current biggies can be outstandingly good, but market conditions and lack of consistant marketing have robbed UK users of a fine range easily driven by many good amps. Why did marco change his crossovers? To improve the sound, but I bet his speakers measure better too.........
No doubt they would. Upgrading the crossovers removed a significant amount of unwanted coloration :cool:
Perhaps a flat response is also intrinsically linked to the term 'flat-earth'? ;)
Marco.
Can I ask why using an existing term ("Flat Earth") for defining something so obviously different from the original definition ?
Why not choosing "Spherical Earth" rather than "Round Earth" or "Flat Earth" if both existing definitions are incomplete ?
Inventing is better than redefining.
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 09:16
Dave,
Indeed. Now we're getting somewhere... We're saying that, sonically (bugger all to do with the age-old stigmatised view of the word) Anthony's valve-based amps (and others like them), together with other equipment such as (but not exclusively) D/D turntables and big Tannoys, represent valid examples of the 'new flat-earth'! :)
People, let's bin the tired old dogmatic use of the word, once and for all, and embrace a fresh new definition!! :clap:
No doubt they would. Upgrading the crossovers removed a significant amount of unwanted coloration :cool:
Perhaps a flat response is also intrinsically linked to the term 'flat-earth'? ;)
Marco.
Check post 43. I asked earlier if AoS was trying to re-write the definition of 'Flat Earth' & Steve answered "NO" I think you two need to agree on this if it's what you're trying to do!
Now you seem to be proposing a 'New Flat Earth' including DD TT etc that were the 'Round Earth' measured well products of the time that the 'Flat Earth' Linn etc Kicked so hard against.
Take a look at yourself Marco, 'Flat Earth' principles have not changed, your views are now open to 'Round Earth' products SP10 DD TT etc. So maybe just maybe your not a 'Flat Earther' anymore!
Hi Alfie,
Check post 43. I asked earlier if AoS was trying to re-write the definition of 'Flat Earth' & Steve answered "NO" I think you two need to agree on this if it's what you're trying to do!
This was always about redefining the term 'flat-earth', so I'm not sure what Steve meant. I'll check out the post you're referring to.
Now you seem to be proposing a 'New Flat Earth' including DD TT etc that were the 'Round Earth' measured well products of the time that the 'Flat Earth' Linn etc Kicked so hard against.
That's *exactly* it! The flat-earth principles 'championed' in certain sectors in those days were extremely narrow-minded and blinkered. Our redefined view of the term encapsulates what we think it should really mean. Is it sinking in yet? ;)
Take a look at yourself Marco, 'Flat Earth' principles have not changed, your views are now open to 'Round Earth' products SP10 DD TT etc. So maybe just maybe your not a 'Flat Earther' anymore!
Alfie, mate, you need to start reading what I've written properly, particularly what I've recently added to the ethos section of the forum!! What you're saying implies that I've completely changed and abandoned my principles with hi-fi, which I've already stated I haven't. This is obvious from what I've written there in terms of how I like music presented.
Try reading it again and digesting it properly.
I'm simply no longer a 'flat-earther' in terms of how you may view the definition, that's all.
If you're not getting the message, that's fine. I think that we should move on and just agree to disagree, otherwise we'll continue going round in circles... We didn't expect to win everyone over, after all.
What's important is that some people are getting the message, which indicates that what we set out to achieve has largely been a success :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 09:39
We're not redefining flat earth at all, we are merely interpreting it exactly as TonyL, Joe Petrik and others did on Pink Fish back in 2001/2002 as being a state of mind and way of evaluating hi-fi and enjoying your music collection. These guys must be acknowledged for defining flat earth else we are simply guilty of plagiarism.
A few others could do a bit af reserach into this in order to abandon their preconceptions and negative associations with certain brands with a very sheep-like following that actually goes against FE principles.
We're not redefining flat earth at all...
Ok, let say that we're redefining it in terms of the narrow-minded and blinkered way it was portrayed in certain sectors during the 70s and 80s.....
Agreed? :)
That's what I meant by 'redefining' it.
Marco.
That's *exactly* it! The flat-earth principles 'championed' in certain sectors in those days were extremely narrow-minded and blinkered. Our redefined view of the term encapsulates what we think it should really mean. Is it sinking in yet? ;)
Marco, it seems to me like a "the others are wrong" definition...
It's hard to define something by simply opposing it to "the others' narrow-mindedness". A negativily-oriented definition is almost always wrong, simply because you can never draw a clear line where arguments fall entirely on one side or another. You have (inevitably) always some on the line.
So, a "others are wrong" definition always ends up creating self-negation arguments. Trust me, logic is my job. :)
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 09:48
The Technics and other DD turntables have been chosen for their involving and musicality not for how they measure. The concept of the FE being a method of evaluation is very simple but for the fact that certain people can't see past the Linn/Naim association.
You're not wrong, Dimitri ;)
However, like I said, we didn't expect to win everyone over with this argument. As long as we encourage people to challenge their preconceptions, and some can see where we're coming from, this exercise will have been a success :)
Marco.
The Technics and other DD turntables have been chosen for their involving and musicality not for how they measure.
Well, perhaps. But they were engineered to measure best : Matsushita used their best engineers (and a lot of money and R&D) to make a perfect turntable. In this particular case, these TT are full "Round Earth" ones : if they measure well, they sound well. ;)
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 09:58
Hi Alfie,
This was always about redefining the term 'flat-earth', so I'm not sure what Steve meant. I'll check out the post you're referring to.
That's *exactly* it! The flat-earth principles 'championed' in certain sectors in those days were extremely narrow-minded and blinkered. Our redefined view of the term encapsulates what we think it should really mean. Is it sinking in yet? ;)
Alfie, mate, you need to start reading what I've written properly, particularly what I've recently added to the ethos section of the forum!! What you're saying implies that I've completely changed and abandoned my principles with hi-fi, which I've already stated I haven't. This is obvious from what I've written there in terms of how I like music presented.
Try reading it again and digesting it properly.
I'm simply not a 'flat-earther' in terms of how you may view the definition, that's all.
If you're not getting the message, that's fine. I think that we should move on and just agree to disagree, otherwise we'll continue going round in circles... We didn't expect to win everyone over, after all.
What's important is that some people are getting the message, which indicates that what we set out to achieve has largely been a success :)
Marco.
Marco
You always state we should be open minded, which I strongly agree with.
'Flat Earth' principles are not so open minded. We know thats why TT like the SP10 etc suffered. There's loads of Jap crap being re-discovered, that were very very good at the time, they were totally shunned at the time because of the 'Flat Earth' movement. Labels like 'New Flat Earth' do not promote open mindedness IMO, there's no need for labels, even less need for a label like 'New Flat Earth' that seems to be in the middle of 'Flat & Round Earth'. Labels are destructive & I don't need to sit under the umbrella of one, I am to open minded for that! :)
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 10:03
Dimitri, they may measure well but they don't sound well until they have been heavily modified - new arm or arm re-wire, new feet, offboard PSU, new mats and a fancy MC cart all chosen with the ears.
Dimitri, they may measure well but they don't sound well until they have been heavily modified - new arm or arm re-wire, new feet, offboard PSU, new mats and a fancy MC cart all chosen with the ears.
I'm not so sure... :scratch: I'm even sure they sound perfectly well as they are, with a good MM cartridge. ;)
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 10:11
Dimitri, they may measure well but they don't sound well until they have been heavily modified - new arm or arm re-wire, new feet, offboard PSU, new mats and a fancy MC cart all chosen with the ears.
Steve,
The SP10 both measures very well & sounds very well, It spent most of its life under a cloud here in the UK thanks to the 'Flat Earth' thought police. Along with lots of other kit now refered to as 'Jap Crap' some of it was very very good indeed but never made it in any numbers to the UK & this damaged the Hi-Fi world alot more than it helped!
Spectral Morn
09-12-2009, 10:16
The official line on New Skaro, is that the terms Round or Flat Earth are way to narrow and loaded with historical and cultural audio baggage. Our own view, is that The Parallel/Multiple/Realities/Interlinked Earth is broad enough to encompass all options, views and the complexity in audio.....;)
Regards D S D L
How the heck do you categorise old sods like me?
I was immersed in the Linn/Naim thang since 1976 when I bought my first LP12 from Grahams at trade price, while still using Radford and Quad valve amps with BC1's?????
Today, I accept that Linn and Naim (the former especially) are way beyond where they were thirty years ago and I've gone back to valves and Spendors again, whilst accepting that active 'Briks would still set very high standards if set up right in a room that suits them. I still remember my mate's old "Bolt-up and chipboard active 'Brik system and live Radio 3 could sound outstandingly good until the Ittok came on the scene and ruined the LP12 for a few years......
The Parallel/Multiple/Realities/Interlinked Earth
Now, that's an original definition ! I like it ! :cool:
How about adopting a term with perhaps less historic 'baggage' and yet still embraces and implies a certain mind-set of openness and improvement, some thing like.......
"...The ART of SOUND.....
.....a NEW AGE of HI-FI...."
...just a thought.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 10:50
Good kit can measure well but kit that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good.
Neil, if we go all-embracing we end up losing the identity we had from the beginning and we'll become a platform for people to advocate choosing their hi-fi because it measures well, got a good review in HFN, because the local emporium stocks it or because of marketing slogans like" You're nobody without a ...."
Good Jap-fi didn't see the light of day in UK high end dealerships because the reps from you-know-who bullied dealers into only stocking their gear. There was perhaps even a conspiracy to bury DD turntables because they were more musical all along.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 10:58
Ralph, what's new about the notion of choosing kit because it makes listening to music more enjoyable? There is nothing new about that.
We are simply picking up a mantra established by a few years ago and then dropped by another forum when it decided to go all-embracing.
We are not such a broad church.
Neil, if we go all-embracing we end up losing the identity we had from the beginning and we'll become a platform for people to advocate choosing their hi-fi because it measures well, got a good review in HFN, because the local emporium stocks it or because of marketing slogans like" You're nobody without a ....".
Which was the marketing theme favoured by flat earthers!
If you go with flat earth you'll confuse people who don't know what the term means and alienate (a) those who understand it to mean anti-science and (b) those who think it means Linn/Naim-based intolerance. If you need to write screeds to explain what you mean by 'flat earth' that sort of defeats the object. Just use 'subjectivist: if it sounds good, it is good'.
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 11:01
Good kit can measure well but kit that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good.
Neil, if we go all-embracing we end up losing the identity we had from the beginning and we'll become a platform for people to advocate choosing their hi-fi because it measures well, got a good review in HFN, because the local emporium stocks it or because of marketing slogans like" You're nobody without a ...."
Good Jap-fi didn't see the light of day in UK high end dealerships because the reps from you-know-who bullied dealers into only stocking their gear. There was perhaps even a conspiracy to bury DD turntables because they were more musical all along.
And 'you know who' was instrumental in the 'Flat Earth' movement! and has alot to answer for IMO.
The forum shouldn't drop its stance & Identity, No way! but I don't think for one that re-defining 'Flat Earth' to 'New Flat Earth' is needed or helpful in any way! IMO YMMV etc etc
Spectral Morn
09-12-2009, 11:13
Now, that's an original definition ! I like it ! :cool:
Hi Dimitri
Glad you like it :) PMRIE.
Regards D S D L
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 11:18
The blame does not lie with the "flat earth movement" but with a couple of manufacturers ruthlessly furthering their commercial interests using gangster-like tactics.
There is nothing "new" about the flat earth principles advocated here. It's all pretty old stuff.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the PFM search engine to go back more than a year.
I think it is possible to capture the essence of flat earth-ness without reviving the mafia mentality that spoiled and corrupted the very noble principle of choosing kit that makes recorded music sound more involving and enjoyable.
If we try to coin another term or attach "new" to it that essence is lost.
It can also be fun discovering kit that beats Linn/Naim at their own game using their selection criteria!
As above.
Now "we" seem to have a better understanding which distortions are acceptable to our ears and which aren't (something the run of the mill desigbers of the 70's either ignored or didn't understand for various reasons), there is a wealth of technically sound audio gear out there that SOUNDS good too. I'd also say that decent vintage stuff (AKA Marco's Tannoys and much well loved valve and turntable equipment) has never sounded better with some sensitive modern-day thinking behind it.
As far as AOS is concerned, I think we have a pretty fair sprinkling of all "disciplines" here, from valve-n-vinyl, to CD and digital streaming and I also think that a fair number of us use ALL the technologies to "do the job" of getting music in their lives. I love handling and messing about with turntables still, yet I still play my CD player (when it's not putting rifle-shots into the amp/speakers) and enjoy the Quad FM3 as well (the Delta 80 is better, but I like the Quad.....).
Surely we're too grown up on here to pidgeon-hole people into "camps."
P.S. I've many less than favourable memories of a sales director I knew who was vociferous with his criticisms of the rest of us who didn't always like his favourite SSSSSSSSBEEEEEEEELLLLLL'ssssssssssssssssss. We were deaf, ignorant and downright second-class in his eyes. Apparently, twenty five years on, his "attitude" hasn't changed overmuch, so I'm told. A shame really, as he's quite a bright individual as I recall, but drenched in his rigid belief system.
Hi Dimitri,
I'm not so sure... I'm even sure they sound perfectly well as they are, with a good MM cartridge.
I guess that depends on what is meant by "sound perfectly well". They certainly do "sound perfectly well" as standard. However, mine definitely sounds rather more "perfectly well" with the modifications Steve has outlined installed - indeed the sonic performance it offers is 'night and day' compared to that of a standard model.
So much then for measurements alone being in any way definitive... ;)
The fact is they only give you half of the story, mon ami! As Steve correctly says:
Good kit can measure well but kit that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good.
...Or at least "good" by our discerning standards.
Hi Dave,
A shame really, as he's quite a bright individual as I recall, but drenched in his rigid belief system.
We like to confront and 'loosen' a few of those on AoS, then neutralise the dogma :eyebrows:
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 11:44
Dave, I've never heard SBLs sound anything other than awful.
The dealer at the time tried to convince me otherwise but the lack of bass and spitty top end just got in the way of everything else they were supposed to do. Allaes that followed at that price point were much better.
...Or at least "good" by our discerning standards.
But if person A dislikes something that person B thinks sounds 'good', then person A's opinion is as valid as person B's. Isn't that what subjectivity is all about?
Hi Joe,
Which was the marketing theme favoured by flat earthers!
If you go with flat earth you'll confuse people who don't know what the term means and alienate (a) those who understand it to mean anti-science and (b) those who think it means Linn/Naim-based intolerance. If you need to write screeds to explain what you mean by 'flat earth' that sort of defeats the object. Just use 'subjectivist: if it sounds good, it is good'.
We are a subjective-minded forum; that will never change. However, we're also entitled to encourage/invite people to think laterally - there's that term again which some seem to be conveniently ignoring! - about the concept of the term 'flat-earth' (or indeed any other subject we might bring up for discussion).
The poll seems to suggest this is working.... Therefore, job done, so far :cool:
Would everyone please pay attention to this:
We're not forcing anyone to change their mind; merely inviting people to challenge their (possible) preconceptions. I trust that everyone can appreciate the difference?
Thinking 'outside of the box' is something we value on AoS, thus we will always encourage our members to consider the concept. We enjoy debates which take people out of their comfort zone, and raising controversial topics of discussion, because that's often when ideas are developed and new discoveries made.
I can't be any clearer than that so (to everyone) let's not waste any more bandwidth on making me repeat this again. Please either accept what is being proposed or not. It's entirely your choice. If it's the latter, I'd be obliged if you bowed gracefully out of the discussion, otherwise all we're doing is going round in circles.
Cheers!
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 11:51
Poll results so far indicate that only a minority have difficulty understanding the concept I also think that one or two folks are being deliberately obtuse on this by refusing to acknowledge the irony behind the adoptation of such a disparaging term historically and the negative association with corruption in the hi-fi industry.
Poll results so far indicate that only a minority have difficulty understanding the concept I also think that one or two folks are being deliberately obtuse on this by refusing to acknowledge the irony behind the adoptation of such a disparaging term historically and the negative association with corruption in the hi-fi industry.
Right, I'm out of here.
But if person A dislikes something that person B thinks sounds 'good', then person A's opinion is as valid as person B's. Isn't that what subjectivity is all about?
Yes, of course. But my earlier post (#117), which you quoted, wasn't about 'disliking' anything, or 'good' or' bad'. No-one here (as far as I know) was saying that they disliked the sound of a standard Technics SL-1200; merely that, as Dimitri says, it 'sounded perfectly well'.
People who've modified and upgraded this turntable, however, know from experience that its performance can be significantly improved from stock, hence the reference to "our discerning standards". "Sounds perfectly well", for us, is not good enough.
You don't half like to argue for argument's sake sometimes, Joe! ;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 12:01
Joe, your criteria for good and bad, are they presentational or communicative?
I agree that presentational issues can get in the way of musical communication (see SBL comments above) but good/bad absolutes are utterly meaningless. If hi-fi can get both the communication and presentational aspects right there is usually consensus amongst subjectivists. Where there are imperfections with either you choose your compromises.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 12:39
Joe, if the cap fits and all that... No need to throw a strop though!
I guess that 'Joe will be Joe'. He seems prone to strops.
One thing I've never understood though is why if people wish to leave they feel the need to announce it... What purpose does that serve? :scratch:
Anyway, as they say, you can't win 'em all! :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 13:53
didn't someone else just make a similar announcement?
Yes, Andre did. It's been removed in accordance with my views expressed above ;)
If people wish to leave then they can do so with the minimum amount of fuss. Announcing it serves no purpose unless wishing to be perceived as some sort of martyr or drama queen. I'm afraid that I have little time for such petulance.
Marco.
A poll means only what we want it to mean. ;)
(as everybody knows)
Sorry, Dimitri, you'll have to explain that one... :scratch:
The questions are very clear and concise so as to ensure the minimum amount of misinterpretation.
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 14:11
One response indicates the concept exists independently of Linn/Naim, one associates with these brands in a negative sense and the third with the same brands in a positive sense.
The possible responses that align Linn/Naim with the FE concept outnumber the one that doesn't by two to one.
Those votes in the first option outnumber those in the second and third options combined so far.
The results speak for themselves and surprise even me.
The majority do not regard Linn/Naim to be exclusively associated with the FE. That's a result - you can't win 'em all!
I will explain :
- We've needed more than 10 pages to make the questions (and words) clear...
- The poll doesn't explicitely ask members to identify himself/herself to an idea : it merely suggests three possible options to how Flat Earth is percieved.
- There's only one possible option if you don't want to be associated directly with Linn or Naim : was this the purpose ? i don't think so.
- As there's only one option, then can we consider that people who "don't associate the term negatively with hi-fi made by Linn or Naim " and people who think "others than Linn or Naim can be flat Earth" are all Flat-Earthers ? I doubt. ;)
Indeed, Steve.
If we've caused some people to examine and challenge their preconceptions, then regardless of anything else this thread has been a success :)
The 'Confronting your realities' thread previously was equally controversial and emotive... Questioning/probing discussions such as this are what AoS is about. We like to get people thinking and out of their cosy comfort zones, even if the journey is unlikely to be smooth!
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 14:22
Ok, Dimitri, I provided three possible definitions. You've exercised a process of elimination.
Can you now provide us with at least one more definition of Flat Earth that you feel a significant number of people may identify with.
Bear in mind also that the three definitions above are all established historically.
The Grand Wazoo
09-12-2009, 17:55
Marco
You always state we should be open minded, which I strongly agree with.
'Flat Earth' principles are not so open minded. We know thats why TT like the SP10 etc suffered. There's loads of Jap crap being re-discovered, that were very very good at the time, they were totally shunned at the time because of the 'Flat Earth' movement. Labels like 'New Flat Earth' do not promote open mindedness IMO, there's no need for labels, even less need for a label like 'New Flat Earth' that seems to be in the middle of 'Flat & Round Earth'. Labels are destructive & I don't need to sit under the umbrella of one, I am to open minded for that! :)
I'm completely with this 100%
Surely if you continue down this course, you will be in danger of reaching (or giving the impression that you have reached) the logical conclusion of your argument:
A twist on what was mentioned by Steve earlier -
"You're a nobody without a Technics TT or one of Anthony's amps"
Is this the impression you want to give?
Hi Chris,
I also agree (in principle) with this part alfie wrote:
'Flat Earth' principles are not so open minded. We know thats why TT like the SP10 etc suffered. There's loads of Jap crap being re-discovered, that were very very good at the time, they were totally shunned at the time because of the 'Flat Earth' movement.
...Although it's referring to 'flat-earth' in a way which isn't representive of our definition of the words.
However this bit (and what you've just written above):
Labels like 'New Flat Earth' do not promote open mindedness IMO, there's no need for labels, even less need for a label like 'New Flat Earth' that seems to be in the middle of 'Flat & Round Earth'. Labels are destructive & I don't need to sit under the umbrella of one, I am to open minded for that!
...Unfortunately shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the point we're making. I've no idea how I can make myself any clearer. Therefore, I'll pass this over to Steve because no offence, Chris, quite honestly I'm losing the will to live!
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 18:13
No Chris. The process is more important than the result. There are other musical amps and turntables out there. It is certainly not a case of buying anything on our say-so.
I'd prefer to say:
"You're a nobody if you can't choose your hi-fi by using your ears and need to rely on the opinions of others as your guide."
The purpose of this forum is to share and compare experiences and generally point people in the direction determined by the positive experiences of others. Those that tread the same or a similar path should still do the necessary listening and making their own minds up.
Do you find it difficult to stand under the umbrella of choosing hi-fi that makes listening to recorded music more involving and enjoyable on an emotional level?
Dave, I've never heard SBLs sound anything other than awful.
The dealer at the time tried to convince me otherwise but the lack of bass and spitty top end just got in the way of everything else they were supposed to do. Allaes that followed at that price point were much better.
Hi Steve,
Maybe we had a bass dem room at Listen Inn (I reckon we did), but after a good few years away from SBL's I came to the mk2 version with very much a negative stance. To be absolutely fair, they could sound very good indeed and a great partnering power amp we had was the Arcam FMJ one, which had a big-n-beefy presentation. The bigger Meridian power amp seemed to cope well too. Apart from the styling, complex box and very cheap main driver (which Naim charged around a ton each for), The SBL could be made to work well in a well damped living room, although the close proximity to walls ruined any imaging qualities they may or may not have had.....
I rather admired the active SBL's as long as the tweeters were turned down a notch from the standard setting (more a problem with the undamped Scan-Sqeak model they used I think, which sounded off at 8KHz - audible and certainly measurable in all its versions too).
I fully understand if you never liked these speakers though, but I hope you can also understand how fans of Naim driven SBL's would loathe Spendor, Rogers and Harbeth products with a vengeance ;)
I had the BC2's running well today at lunchtime and find that they seem to effortlessly dig through compressed recordings without appearing to add or remove anything of sgnificance. I can "follow the tune" with consumate ease and despite the deliberately "talky" ply boxes, the larger voice coil over the BC1 (amongst a couple of other things coupled with the simple tweaks I've done) does seem to keep the bass under some sort of control, so I get a measure of "pr@t" as well.
How wonderful to once again own a system that doesn't tell me what music to play..........:lolsign:
The Grand Wazoo
09-12-2009, 18:16
No Chris. The process is more important than the result. There are other musical amps and turntables out there. It is certainly not a case of buying anything on our say-so.
I'd prefer to say:
"You're a nobody if you can't choose your hi-fi by using your ears and need to rely on the opinions of others as your guide."
The purpose of this forum is to share and compare experiences and generally point people in the direction determined by the positive experiences of others. Those that tread the same or a similar path should still do the necessary listening and making their own minds up.
That's what I kind of hoped you'd say! Just call me the resident Beelzebub's advocate!
That's what I kind of hoped you'd say!
Thank God for that (and Steve nailing it). Otherwise it was time for a spot of Hari Kari!! :acid:
:lol:
Marco.
Ok, Dimitri, I provided three possible definitions. You've exercised a process of elimination.
Can you now provide us with at least one more definition of Flat Earth that you feel a significant number of people may identify with.
Bear in mind also that the three definitions above are all established historically.
Steve, as you know I'm far from the UK hifi circles, so you have to take my opinions accordingly.
What I understand from this thread and poll is:
- Most members here seem to associate Flat Earth with Linn/Naim. Right or wrong I won't discuss, it seems a fact. Moreover, future members (especially UK) will probably do the same.
- Trying to dissociate from Linn/Naim (older) ways of seeing hifi is irrelevant. First of all because right now these firms are a ridiculous minority in the hifi industry and second because trying to openly divorce with a meaningless (actual) concept seems as if we are giving it unnecessary significance. This old Flat-Earth-Linn/Naim concept is worn-out even for these firms. It's merely a souvenir, something like a camp fire where old Li-Na members gather around to speak about the good-old-times, their good-old-times.
So, there are the Flat-Earters.
Then, there's, also, another view, : People who let numbers, specifications and double blind testing demonstrate what an audio component is capable of. The objectivists.
Finally, there's another one : it's what you (through this site, and probably through this thread and poll) seem to promote : an open-minded conscious evaluation of the hifi gear solely based on subjective qualities. The age, price, manufacturing country, raw materials (valves or not) and measures don't matter. Only the design perfection, manufacturing excellence and subjective reproduction qualities matter. No place for snake-oil.
As far as I know, this is what is widely (internationally) called a subjectivist forum. Without the marketing and the snake-oil. Call it anything you like (best would be AoS :eyebrows:), it still remains subjectivist with solid (conscious) background.
Well, Flat-Earth are subjectivists too, but they gave their soul to some kind of UK marketing. ;)
What I understand from this thread and poll is:
- Most members here seem to associate Flat Earth with Linn/Naim. Right or wrong I won't discuss, it seems a fact.
How so, Dimitri? That's not what the results of the poll indicate so far...
Then, there's, also, another view, : People who let numbers, specifications and double blind testing demonstrate what an audio component is capable of.
...And fail - royally, for valid reasons you've alluded to elsewhere. Sorry, I couldn't resist winding up a few objectivists! :eyebrows:
I'll leave Steve to comment on the remainder of your excellent post.
Marco.
Having waded through this thread, I can't help wondering why you seem to be hijacking a derogatory term in order to turn it into something positive? I definitely associate it with the Linn/Naim lovers of old with their 'listen to the tune' and 'foot tapping' slogans and insistence on enjoying hopelessly unbalanced and coloured systems while trying to make the rest of us 'believe'. Even when presented with a superior product (I attended such a demo), they refused to allow their minds to actually listen and admit that what they were hearing was superior all round.
Call me strange, but I feel like I am a round (or should that be spherical) earther for reasons of being the exact opposite and allowing my mind to be free of brand loyalty and peer pressure.
What I understand from this thread and poll is:
- Most members here seem to associate Flat Earth with Linn/Naim. Right or wrong I won't discuss, it seems a factHow so, Dimitri? That's not what the results of the poll indicate so far...
The question of the poll was
" Which of the following most accurately describes your perception of Flat Earth?"
I can read the results as :
"I don't think only Naim/Linn can do Flat Earth" : 94%
"I don't negatively associate Flat Earth with hifi made by Linn/Naim" : 72%
"I believe it is a state of mind and an approach to evaluating hi-fi systems" : 67%
The fact that no-one explicitly asked (after 15 pages) : "but why are you speaking about Linn/Naim ?" it probably means that the last 67% still associate it with Linn/Naim but simply believe it is a "state of mind" rather than "a communication artifact".
Am I imagining things ? :scratch:
LOL... Are you looking at a different poll from me? :eyebrows:
Am I imagining things ?
Yes!
The actual poll stats above currently read as follows:
65.31% believe 'flat-earth' is a state of mind and an approach to evaluating hi-fi systems.
28.57% associate the term negatively with hi-fi made by Linn or Naim.
Therefore, of the people who've voted so far, the majority agree with Steve and me :)
Marco.
Therefore, of the people who've voted so far, the majority agree with Steve and me :).
Well, Marco, I also voted for the first choice, because the two others are -obviously- false. So what ?
If I understood properly, most people still associate the term with Linn/Naim, but simply don't think that (right now) Linn/Naim has the monopoly of the term use. Hence my phrase "Most members here seem to associate Flat Earth with Linn/Naim"... ;)
Hi Dimitri,
Sorry, I don't follow you at all :scratch:
I'm bowing out of this discussion for the time being and off to spin some tunes to retain some level of sanity! :lolsign:
Steve informs me that he'll be back to play later.
Laters,
Marco.
I understand exactly what you are saying Dimitri - as soon as I saw the thread title for the first time - and nothing else - I immediately associated "the question" to Linn/Naim - I bet 99% of people did too - I think it is intrinsic.
But, I do now "get" that the idea of adopting a derogatory name is being ironic, but I still think its a daft thing to do! ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
09-12-2009, 21:44
I think another poll would be wise
who thinks it is wise for marco and steve to
1. Associate this forum with flat earth in a bid to move the meaning forward to something we agree with
2. Come up with a new term for this forum to be associated with
3. Niether
I too think that the current poll results ate misleading! Just because people understand what flat earth actually means to them, doesn't mean they think it is wise to associate with it!
If you (marco and steve) want to know what your members think then this might be the way to do it!
And, just to add a little more confusion, none of the options given represent my understanding of flat earth. I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't know the history being referred to here and makes no association whatsoever with flat earth and a brand.
So, for me, flat earth is a negative phrase, referring to people with completely the wrong idea about something (ie the earth is flat). As a general phrase it is not a positive one. Seems strange to me to want to actively associate yourself with it.
Is this not an apt analogy?
We really like eating meat, we really can't understand what all the fuss is about with killing animals for food. So that everyone knows how we feel, henceforth we will call ourselves "Vegetarians"
:confused:
Is this not an apt analogy?
We really like eating meat, we really can't understand what all the fuss is about with killing animals for food. So that everyone knows how we feel, henceforth we will call ourselves "Vegetarians"
:confused:
:lolsign: :D
Oh FFS... Has anyone bothered reading anything Steve and me have written on this thread??? :brickwall:
It's all yours, Steve. I'm tired of trying to penetrate concrete!! 'Obtuse' doesn't even scratch the surface! http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5058/freesignsmileys999.gif (http://img264.imageshack.us/i/freesignsmileys999.gif/)
I shall seek sanctuary in the relative sanity of my music room. Ciao...
:door:
Then.........
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3805/freefightingsmileys587.gif (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/freefightingsmileys587.gif/)
Before........
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/236/jump20.gif (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/jump20.gif/)
And lastly.........
:acid:
Marco.
Darling, where did you put my Benzodiazepine ? :D
anthonyTD
09-12-2009, 22:22
flat earth what does it mean to me?
maybe someone sat on it.:scratch::ner::eek::lolsign:
seriously though, i cant help but relate it to the human race's exceptance that the world was flat, and that if you went too far near the edge you would fall off! obviously that atitude quickly changed once the world had been explored properly! so, if we are going to refer to this flat earth slogan as an asset, please,,, those that know its true meaning explain it to us dafties.:eyebrows:
A...
maybe we should call our new found methology, the oval earth society.
A...
Well Marco you did ask for some lateral thinking, and for us to think outside the box! ;)
the oval earth society.
A...
Seconded. ;)
The Grand Wazoo
09-12-2009, 22:30
maybe we should call our new found methology, the oval earth society.
A...
I was thinking 'Curled Up At The Edges'
or
'Terra-deflatus
anthonyTD
09-12-2009, 22:32
I was thinking 'Curled Up At The Edges'
or
'Terra-deflatus
:D
alfie2902
09-12-2009, 22:39
Before Linn released the LP12 in 1973, which was basically an Ariston RD11, many hi-fi companies had promoted electrical specifications as indicative of their products performance.
Conventional wisdom at the time in the hi-fi community was that the loudspeaker was the most important part of a hi-fi system. Linn championed the "source-first" approach, arguing that, whilst a system was only as good as its weakest link, the most important part of any system was the source.
Linn had focused on its products ability to reproduce the elements of music as judged subjectively - sometimes referred to as "PRAT" for pace, rhythm and timing - or, in Linn's terminology, "pitch accuracy".
Since many of the principles Linn subscribed to were thought to be heretical, or flying in the face of conventional wisdom, Linn/Naim aficionados were nicknamed "Flat Earthers", sometimes affectionately, sometimes derogatorily.
Juat a little bit of history explaining where I beleive the term "Flat Earthers" originated from! Might be of some help to those that are not sure of the term from an Hi-Fi perspective.
Steve Toy
09-12-2009, 23:41
That's a fair summary Alfie. Back then Linn may have had a monopoly on pitch accuracy. Naim came along a year later with the amplification. These companies certainly founded FE principles but today they no longer have such a monopoly on involving hi-fi.
The term was perhaps more acceptable at the turn of the millenium than it is now. Perhaps we have entered a post flat earth era but that is where our roots definitely lie.
In any case the brands themselves have moved on. Naim are decidedly more mainstream and yet very up-market. Linn are more into multi-room and yacht installations.
The very principles that underpin what was once called the Flat Earth, either affectionately or disparagingly, may now lie elsewhere with other brands or indeed other amplification topologies hitherto reserved for the presentation over communication/pipe 'n slipper brigade.
There is a similar story with front ends although Linn make some excellent products with their DS range of music servers. Turntables that used to be the preserve of the measurement freaks have been adopted by those formerly known as flat earthers because with a little fettling (well, quite a lot actually) they can out-prat and out-tune a fully-Naimed LP12.
Meanwhile Naim use another deck with an elastic band in their demonstrations these days and Linn have made their top-flight turntable even more ridiculously expensive, apparently without even comparing it with the competition. So what happened to the tune dem there?
Perhaps they are afraid the Linn may come second...
We're not redefining flat earth at all, we are merely interpreting it exactly as TonyL, Joe Petrik and others did on Pink Fish back in 2001/2002 as being a state of mind and way of evaluating hi-fi and enjoying your music collection.
Never heard of Pink Fish. Anyway, how far can one go before an interpretation becomes a redefinition?
These guys must be acknowledged for defining flat earth else we are simply guilty of plagiarism.
I've never heard of these guys but the term 'Flat Earth' was clearly defined and being used well before they were born.
Please either accept what is being proposed or not. It's entirely your choice. If it's the latter, I'd be obliged if you bowed gracefully out of the discussion, otherwise all we're doing is going round in circles.
So this thread is only for those who share your point of view?
Fine, all yours. have fun.
:wave:
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 00:14
Kris, Marco has already bowed out of the discussion for now so you can disregard what he said above. I actually think we are getting somewhere beyond going round in circles.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 00:45
I think the problem here is the term 'Flat Earth' your using.If your trying to create a whole new meaning to it why? Can't you just call it something else! A lot are getting a bit pissed off with this term your using to be honest.. i for one had a gut full of years ago.'Flat Earth' back then was something that's left a bitter taste in a lot of mouth's as you can understand.
If it's not too stronger word 'Flat Earth' (as 99% of people associate the word with) was nothing more than a cult, we don't want to see a return of in any shape or form tbh.
The poll at the top means hoot it's obviously voted on by watches that don't post on regular basis just jumping in to put a mark down..
I don't honestly see what your trying to justify buy starting this topic cos it sure as hell aint what it was supposidly intended for!
Can't you just call it the AOS Experience or summert?
Whats puzzling me is you & Marco are preaching the exact same experience but you have totally different world Speakers/Source..You saying the copper amp is the key to this resurgence of the whole experience?
:confused:
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 01:05
No. It's the methodology behind building the systems. Marco uses different speaker cables, mains configuration and stands too. The fact that our power amps are nearly identical is just incidental.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 01:08
I think I can actually hear marco and steves heads banging on walls!
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 01:10
... Oh no, actually it's just my new and very realisitic hifi playing "now that's what I call head bangers 439"
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 01:11
I know, I do get what they trying to say and achive though.. I'm just not sure of the motivation behind it
I've come back from the dead (well actually a Modest Mouse & Clayhill listening sesh) just to add this:
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/985/smileysex011k.gif (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/smileysex011k.gif/)
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5660/sign0151.gif (http://img46.imageshack.us/i/sign0151.gif/)
Marco.
P.S Welcome back, Andre :wave:
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 01:27
I'm just not sure of the motivation behind it
Lets just say that the whole thing was inspired by your recent amplifier change.
Now, on that subject, you bought Naim, fronted by a Linn Majik DS presumably because you like prat and tunefulness, am I correct?
You heard your new power amp in conjunction with your Naim pre and whilst you gained some bass drive and a bigger sound, the prat side of things was lost. On balance, not good. Then you heard the pre and something happened...
Well, you bought the power amp and had a pre built to order.
Does your new system do prat?
If so, does it do it better than the old?
Does the new system do more besides prat?
Do any extras that it may bring sonically add to the musical enjoyment?
Perhaps we should coin the phrase the post flat earth.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 01:27
P.S Welcome back, Andre :wave:
Couldnt let this drop :lol:
No. It's the methodology behind building the systems
Without reverting back to the taboo wurd: 'FLAT EARTH'..Can you then give me the way you methodically built your system to fit into this ideology of yours please?
;)
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 01:38
Andre, we listened to each of the components and ancilliaries before settling on them. OK, the original KAB Technics deck on Marco's part was a bit of a gamble based on a hunch but it paid off. My power amp that I've now sold to Hamish was a similar gamble but I'd heard the stock A30 before it was modified and I'd heard some of Anthony's other designs too.
I'd also borrowed a Copper amp, the one that Marco now owns for a month as well as a number of different preamps.
The DAC was a bit of a gamble but it was further modified from when I first had it because it lacked a bit of drive to start with. That was duly addressed.
The speakers were a home dem.
Even the mains block I use was an audition first before purchase.
At each stage I look for improvements to dynamics, timing, nuance, texture and overall musical enjoyment.
Couldnt let this drop :lol:
Without reverting back to the taboo wurd: 'FLAT EARTH'..Can you then give me the way you methodically built your system to fit into this ideology of yours please?
Here, http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7415/aresehole.gif (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/aresehole.gif/)
Sniff this:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6931/10156.gif (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/10156.gif/)
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8038/fart3.gif (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/fart3.gif/)
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
alfie2902
10-12-2009, 01:51
I know, I do get what they trying to say and achive though.. I'm just not sure of the motivation behind it
I don't get what they're trying to achieve though Hamish.
AoS already promotes the subjective approach & some of the other good things that came from 'Flat Earth'.
But IMO 'Flat Earth' went on to do as much damage as good for the Hi-Fi community. Products such as the SP10, infact all DD TT were lost to the UK & lots of other great products that didn't fit in with the ideology were lost!! It's taken nearly 30 years to recover from their bullying, they dominated the Hi-Fi press & fed us lies. Mostly for profit not for the benefit of us Audiophools! 'Flat Earth' simply leaves a dirty taste in my mouth!!
Why can we not take the good bits, subjective approach etc & move forward to something new & not regurgitate it warts n all! As in our systems a mixture of new & old!
Just my thoughts & sorry for taking it around in circles yet again :)
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 02:01
Products such as the SP10, infact all DD TT were lost to the UK & lots of other great products that didn't fit in with the ideology were lost!!
I think the problem was they did fit in with the ideology so they were duly eliminated as competition.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 02:03
Andre, we listened to each of the components and ancilliaries before settling on them. OK, the original KAB Technics deck on Marco's part was a bit of a gamble based on a hunch but it paid off. My power amp that I've now sold to Hamish was a similar gamble but I'd heard the stock A30 before it was modified and I'd heard some of Anthony's other designs too.
I'd also borrowed a Copper amp, the one that Marco now owns for a month as well as a number of different preamps.
The DAC was a bit of a gamble but it was further modified from when I first had it because it lacked a bit of drive to start with. That was duly addressed.
The speakers were a home dem.
Even the mains block I use was an audition first before purchase.
At each stage I look for improvements to dynamics, timing, nuance, texture and overall musical enjoyment.
I get it then your not actually trying to redifine 'Flat Earth' but your a new 'Flat Earther'!! So does this mean you can't drop your old 'Flat Earth' ways, realising it was technically a joke so decided to use everything 'Flat earth' was againt to be the new 'Flat Earth'? :lol:
Isnt this what the old 'Flat Earth' companies now do? so in all fairness 'Flat Earther's' are Hypocrites, but to still call yourelf a 'Flat earther' makes things you preached about in the old 'Flat Earth' days of yore still stick with people of good memorie.. Blimey did i say 'Flat Earth' ten times :eek:
:lol:
:sofa:
oi Marco you been on the pop?
alfie2902
10-12-2009, 02:11
I think the problem was they did fit in with the ideology so they were duly eliminated as competition.
Steve you could very well be right!
But there are still lots of people who believe DD TT are all inferior to belt drives because of the dominant companies of the 'Flat Earth' era told them this was true!
There are still lots of people who will not hear a word said against the LP12 because of the dominant companies of the 'Flat Earth' era told them this was the best & only TT worthy of their consideration.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 02:28
There are still lots of people who will not hear a word said against the LP12 because of the dominant companies of the 'Flat Earth' era told them this was the best & only TT worthy of their consideration.
Those people are sheep. They simply do as they are told. No need for them to do any tune-demming, they'll just open their wallets on demand.
The LP12 is flawed. It sounds bloated in the lower mid. I heard this in a very revealing system and it did my head in.
oi Marco you been on the pop?
Nah, just high on life, matey! ;)
Now don't you girls be having a bitch-fest when I hit me scratcher.....
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/6729/fighting0070.gif (http://img686.imageshack.us/i/fighting0070.gif/)
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2401/freefightingsmileys536.gif (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/freefightingsmileys536.gif/)
Instead do this:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9217/manhugsmiley.gif (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/manhugsmiley.gif/)
:kiss:
:eyebrows:
:goodnight:
Marco.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 02:34
Hows about this new name lads:
'The Meeting Of Two Earths'
The oval egg is a great thing when people meet back up at the narrowist point..
Oi quite loikes it :)
Right, I've shlipped into to my (waterproof) Batman jim-jams now, soooooooooooooo..... LATERZ!
Marco.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 02:41
Andre you have absolutely no idea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I choose hi-fi in pretty much the same way as I did ten years ago.
My first ever dem was at Listen Inn in Northampton in May 1999 when I heard the newly-launched, never-been heard-before-in-the-shop, straight-out-of-the-box Rotel RCD 951 CD player. This was the first budget player to have HDCD filter from Pacific Microsonics before Microsoft bought them out. I heard it against the Arcam Alpha 7SE and a Denon player. The Arcam was perhaps the best for rhythms but it was marginal. The Denon was so-so but was the cheapest. The Rotel was the best for air and space and had a bigger soundstage.
I chose the Rotel. I guess at the time I was a round-earth subjectivist :eek: As I've always liked soundstage depth and imaging as well as musical involvement I ended up buying Densen amps about a year later from Acoustica in Stafford along with the brand new, just-launched Naim CD5. It did soundstaging unlike its predecessor the CD3.5.
Perhaps I am a little oval earth then.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 02:45
The problem with the meeting of two earths is it's a bit all-embracing. We'll have measurement freaks in next. :stalks:
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 02:50
Andre you have absolutely no idea.
O i doo
Perhaps I am a little oval earth then.
Yep hence my 'The Meeting Of Two Earths' remark.You've contradicted yourself on odd occasion showing both Flat & round earth values which is understandable..
I think this topics well & trully burned itself out now tbh ;)
Ian Walker
10-12-2009, 08:16
I think this topics well & trully burned itself out now tbh ;)
Yes so do i,Nurse...nurse can you put him back in bed now:lol:
Those people are sheep. They simply do as they are told. No need for them to do any tune-demming, they'll just open their wallets on demand.
The LP12 is flawed. It sounds bloated in the lower mid. I heard this in a very revealing system and it did my head in.
Steve, the current uber-expensive issue LP12 "system" appears to address this now..
Marco made a point recently - Linn and Naim, by "normalising" and "improving" their products, have all but dumbed down the severe colourations that created their reputations..
Andre, we may well have met back in 1999 [yikes]........
hervéBIGÝ
10-12-2009, 08:33
i don't know about flat earthers but listening to your hifi too much and you'll end up with a flat arse.
maybe we should be known as flat arsers?
hervé
The problem with the meeting of two earths is it's a bit all-embracing. We'll have measurement freaks in next. :stalks:
If the reason of this thread is to keep away "measurement freaks", then subjectivism is more than enough.
Bear in mind that we need some measurements: without measurements you build nothing.
Most raw components (cables, capacitors...) are chosen through measurements. ;)
Hi Dimitri,
I think the inclusion of the word "freaks" was significant. Yes, measurements are necessary up to a point, but not to the near exclusion of all else, as is the mantra of some people. One gets the impression some care more for their oscilloscopes than their hi-fi systems, or in some cases, even their music collections...!! :rolleyes:
As far as I'm concerned now this thread has served its purpose, as it got people thinking about something we wanted them to think about, and perhaps has challenged their preconceptions of the whole 'flat-earth' thing. As I said, on AoS we like to get people out of their comfort zones and push boundaries, so in that respect the thread has been a success and well worth doing, regardless of what further madness ensues from this point onwards! :mental: :eyebrows:
Hervé,
Welcome to AoS - where are you from, my friend?
Incidentally, you're not one of the chaps who owns darTZeel, are you? ;)
Anyway, when you get a chance, please pop into the welcome area and introduce yourself, telling us a little about your system and music tastes. Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 09:49
Dave, I think you meant to say it was me you met in 1999 not Andre.
I remember Listen Inn as a proper flat earth dealership - two dem rooms side by side and only one pair of speakers in each. Both Linn AND Naim were stocked which was quite unusual in itself as they had become bitter rivals as I recall, Rega and I remember a Krell/Martin Logan system completely drowning out the main shop showroom area sounding eerily transparent but utterly incapable of holding a rhythm or tune.
Although over ten years ago, whoever sold me that Rotel player may remember because it was a first. I remember its build quality was rather good for the money too and there was a bit of weight to it.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 10:03
Marco, this thread has served its purpose in another way. I think we have learnt too that the perception of the term flat earth has shifted slightly in the last ten years too. Just as Linn and Naim have become more round earth - and expensive with it (a flat earth entry-level system was pretty much affordable with a term's student grant cheque back then) wwe have entered a new post FE era where subjectivism combined with the involvement factor rather than safe, inoffensive and ultimately boring hi-fi awaits some kind of re-definition.
Perhaps there is too much negativity associated with FE for it to carry us forward into the next decade now awaiting us.
I'm just not keen on "oval" or "spherical" that's all. They seem too much like a cop-out.
Marco, I think we've also learnt something from this thread.
As far as I'm concerned, I learned the story of "Flat Earth" ! :)
That can only be a good thing, then. One can never have 'too much' knowledge...
Marco, I think we've also learnt something from this thread.
Yes indeed ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 10:57
If the reason of this thread is to keep away "measurement freaks", then subjectivism is more than enough.
Bear in mind that we need some measurements: without measurements you build nothing.
Most raw components (cables, capacitors...) are chosen through measurements. ;)
Putting source equipment a side to concentrate on Amplification, Speakers..I always stood by if an amp has near perfect spec it's will more than likley sound rubbish to my ears. I alway have & always will buy vintage amps to use with my CD player.The addition of specialised components is De rigueur in both amp & speaker crossover for me, this doesnt take away the charm within the sound but certainly enhances the presentation/tidy things up, it won't turn an amp into a top line specified unit, it can't.
Perhaps there is too much negativity associated with FE for it to carry us forward into the next decade now awaiting us.
Two things.Everyones got wise to all the bollox that was associated with FE & secondly it is impossible for a company to survive believing in one belief, fashions change & so do company products or they will inevitably die.The same old marketing bull never changes tho..
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 11:09
The idea that a music system should grab your attention rather than play to itself in the background at dinner parties is not bollox.
Some hi-fi unfortunately plays safe (is boring) and worse, some people like it that way. I'd like to think that this forum was not for them.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 11:26
In which you need imaging, soundstage, resolution, detail, pace, rhythm and timing
:sofa:
The addition of specialised components is De rigueur in both amp & speaker crossover for me, this doesnt take away the charm within the sound but certainly enhances the presentation/tidy things up...
Absolutely. That's precisely why I upgraded the crossovers on my Tannoys and obtained the very effect of which you describe :)
Before I did that, I could hear that there was something a bit special going on but it was being strangled somewhat by the signature of ageing electrolytic capacitors, long past their sell-by date, amongst other things. That's why I ended up spending a grand on just the crossover components alone for the Lockwoods!
Marco.
Here's a picture of a 'proper' speaker, dwarfing a 'toy' one:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2881/tannoymonitorgolds.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/tannoymonitorgolds.jpg/)
Whatever happened to wide-baffled cabinets with decent-sized drive units... Are all speakers nowadays designed by anorexics?
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 12:22
This is about my take on the situation...
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/smile-1.jpg
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 12:29
Hamish I think you finally got it.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 12:31
this is what i have been trying to say all along! sometimes its easier to say it with a picture :)
Indeed...
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4351/1044v.gif (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/1044v.gif/)
Marco.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 12:34
The picture was good but the accompanying prose was pure genius.
Here's a picture of a 'proper' speaker, dwarfing a 'toy' one:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2881/tannoymonitorgolds.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/tannoymonitorgolds.jpg/)
Whatever happened to wide-baffled cabinets with decent-sized drive units... Are all speakers nowadays designed by anorexics?
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.That little 'un is mad - the lower tweeter is great to 28KHz, yet they've put a jangling scan-squeak 8KHz resonator above it................
Ashley said one brilliant thing on HDD recently - why not re-introduce ELLIPTICAL drivers again. The EMI unit from the 1960's was apparently very good indeed for its era and the KEF B139 was a very good bass unit as long as it was crossed over below 450 Hz, where it had a resonance I understand. With modern materials and CAD design, this could answer a lot of problems to do with radiating area........
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 13:22
Here's a picture of a 'proper' speaker, dwarfing a 'toy' one:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2881/tannoymonitorgolds.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/tannoymonitorgolds.jpg/)
Whatever happened to wide-baffled cabinets with decent-sized drive units... Are all speakers nowadays designed by anorexics?
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
More & more small houses are being built. Yeh i'd love a pair of big cock speakers but can't..
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 13:33
In the flat earth days you'd run a top-notch source (LP12 :D) into feisty little amps by Naim that could handle difficult loads into some small and difficult load bitch of speakers with a girly name or something named appropriately after the slang word for headphones.
Then the wisdom crept in in recent years: why not use bigger/easier to drive speakers and amps that tell you more about what's at source instead of attempting to hector the bitch down the road.
You don't need to live in a mansion to house big speakers though.
Exactly, I bet that either my lounge or listening room are no bigger than Andre's main rooms in his house, or those belonging to many other people using small speakers ;)
It's not as if I'm living in a mansion, or something!
Marco.
Steve Toy
10-12-2009, 13:38
The issue is one of the missus cramming the room with useless bits of furniture (if you gave her the Albert Hall she'd do exactly the same) and then tell you there's no room for those bloody great big 'orrible monstrosities.
Rare Bird
10-12-2009, 13:40
Exactly, I bet that either my lounge or listening room are no bigger than Andre's main rooms in his house, or those belonging to many other people using small speakers ;)
It's not as if I'm living in a mansion, or something!
Marco.
But my stereo is in the living room, not a dedicated listerning room, one each side of the TV the only place possible.. All i can fit in is slim floor standers..This is why it did my head in living in this place.But but but i don't really care too much now, i listern the headphones.
anthonyTD
10-12-2009, 14:48
That little 'un is mad - the lower tweeter is great to 28KHz, yet they've put a jangling scan-squeak 8KHz resonator above it................
Ashley said one brilliant thing on HDD recently - why not re-introduce ELLIPTICAL drivers again. The EMI unit from the 1960's was apparently very good indeed for its era and the KEF B139 was a very good bass unit as long as it was crossed over below 450 Hz, where it had a resonance I understand. With modern materials and CAD design, this could answer a lot of problems to do with radiating area........
hi dave,
i agree about eliptical speakers, some had great potential, i think if the design specs were looked at again, and with the software tools we have at our disposal today, the concept could be a very interesting one.
A...
Steve, regarding Listen Inn, I could tell you much, but I hope that in my day (98-2000 and 02-04) and after the amalgamation into the KJ "group," we became less FE, although the latter years when I was there part-time were difficult as the business suffered from the contraction of the industry, full-time staff enthusiasm evaporated and the business folded a few months after I was laid off. KJ (part/mostly owned by the LI proprietor) was doing well a year or so ago I understand...
The Spendors I own aren't big speakers by any means, but in our sitting room, they look huge. I keep trying to picture the likes of BC3's, 'Briks and Harbeth 40.1's, let alone a real Tannoy in here and it just wouldn't work!!!!!
You know, the AVI ADM9.1 *is* a very sensible choice for non-gear music lovers with small rooms and the best compromise for us would be the much more expensive Croft pre/power and Harbeth P3ESR's I reckon....
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 18:15
Hamish pure genius
ta! :)
Summarised:-
In the flat earth days you'd run a top-notch source (LP12 )into amps that
could handle difficult loads into some small and difficult load speakers.
Then the wisdom crept in in recent years: why not use bigger/easier to drive speakers and amps that tell
you more about what's at source instead of attempting to hector the bitch down the road.
You don't need to live in a mansion to house big speakers though.
So today,the flat earth way is to run a source (not necessarily top-notch)
into an amp you consider worthy and use whatever good speakers take your fancy (as long as they are big )
and that's pretty much it ?
I still like the source first idea,if you get the best source you can it's going to serve
you well ,down the road.
Spectral Morn
10-12-2009, 21:54
Summarised:-
In the flat earth days you'd run a top-notch source (LP12 )into amps that
could handle difficult loads into some small and difficult load speakers.
Then the wisdom crept in in recent years: why not use bigger/easier to drive speakers and amps that tell
you more about what's at source instead of attempting to hector the bitch down the road.
You don't need to live in a mansion to house big speakers though.
So today,the flat earth way is to run a source (not necessarily top-notch)
into an amp you consider worthy and use whatever good speakers take your fancy (as long as they are big )
and that's pretty much it ?
I still like the source first idea,if you get the best source you can it's going to serve
you well ,down the road.
I agree 100% with you on that. If you don't have it to start with you won't have it on down the chain. I always have (still not found a contradiction in my own experience)to this source first rule.... However it needs to be in proportion. A £20000 CD player/etc into £100 amp and speakers would be crazy. The amplifier and speaker combination needs to be up to the job of showing what the source can and is doing. Sometimes you can have a front-end that punches way above its price point and this allows more to be spent on the amp/speakers.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 22:01
It's like building a house int it!? Good foundations! It's logical that a lot of things work to this principle
Spectral Morn
10-12-2009, 22:05
It's like building a house int it!? Good foundations! It's logical that a lot of things work to this principle
Yes, except its the source first imho. What Hi-Fi have in recent years persuaded people to go speaker first...buy the best speakers you can :doh:, but thats mad. You must imho, look to a balanced approach and consider how things will work in your room, and together. The room will always have the final say. There are however occasions, when changing amplification can cure a speaker issue that appeared to be a room set up issue. You had this experience yourself recently Hamish.
Yes, it's like having good foundations. You just don't need a sturder skyscraper foundation for a house. ;)
Always balance.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 22:26
Neil- Yeah yeah that's what I'm saying, the source is the foundation, then amps then speakers!
I thought I had a problem with my speakers, but it was more the room and amps! And infact I thought the room was a major problem with the speakers I had, but it did infact turn out to be a lack of girth in the amp causing probs in the lower mids and bass
The Vinyl Adventure
10-12-2009, 22:31
Yes, it's like having good foundations. You just don't need a sturder skyscraper foundation for a house. ;)
Always balance.
Eaqually you can't build a house on sand!
It's better to have stronger foundations ie better souce than have a solid roof ie speakers
that's at least how I see it!
So if we have to pick an old mantra to stay on the good side of the AOS ethos, I'll
pass on your new "flat earth" and stick with the "source first".
alfie2902
11-12-2009, 01:00
I think a system is only as good as its weakest link,
but I must agree that anything lost at source cannot be put back
but then again neither can anything lost further down the chain be put back!
I mentioned earlier in the thread that last week I listened to a very expensive system. The most engaging system I've ever heard :eek: & should be at the price :eyebrows:. The source componant only accounted for 3% of the systems price :scratch:
The Vinyl Adventure
11-12-2009, 01:19
So if we have to pick an old mantra to stay on the good side of the AOS ethos, I'll
pass on your new "flat earth" and stick with the "source first".
It's certainly a safer bet!
Hi Alfie,
I think a system is only as good as its weakest link,
but I must agree that anything lost at source cannot be put back
but then again neither can anything lost further down the chain be put back!
I mentioned earlier in the thread that last week I listened to a very expensive system. The most engaging system I've ever heard & should be at the price. The source componant only accounted for 3% of the systems price
What you say is 100% correct. I've also no doubt that the system you heard was excellent :)
As is usual with these things; the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. Absolutist views one way or the other, in terms of source first or speakers first (or whatever first) are unlikely to produce the best result, so the answer is to seek a balanced approach.
Quite simply, there is no universal 'best way' of building a system!
However, in saying that, if the speaker/room interaction is wrong (and I mean 'wrong' from an acoustic point of view due to the shape and/or structure of the room) then you're f*cked no matter what's going on further down the chain...
In those circumstances, one needs to work backwards (perhaps also try some room treatments); or preferably put the system in a better room (or move house)! ;)
Marco.
Eaqually you can't build a house on sand!
It's better to have stronger foundations ie better souce than have a solid roof ie speakers
that's at least how I see it!
The only difference, Hamish, is that speakers are not the roof... !!! :lol:
So if we have to pick an old mantra to stay on the good side of the AOS ethos, I'll
pass on your new "flat earth" and stick with the "source first".
Well, I guess everybody has his own ways of achieving system balance. ;)
Why is it so important in giving a rule like "cables first" or "preamp first" or whatever "first" ? :scratch:
The Vinyl Adventure
11-12-2009, 08:46
So if your speakers are wrong then take the roof off ... Right? ;)
there is always going to be complications but starting at a good source still remains the most logical route! Get the source right and you know that what ever you add at least the source isn't the problem .. It's one less thing worry about
Absolutely, and that's precisely what I've always done :)
Thing is, if a room is really bad and your chosen speakers just aren't working in it, then the detrimental effect of that will far outweigh any benefit a good source component makes....
Like Dimitri alludes to, forget 'first anything' and simply prioritise things equally. Remember that you're building a system, not a disparate collection of boxes.
Marco.
Get the source right and you know that what ever you add at least the source isn't the problem .. It's one less thing worry about
You know, hamish, most digital sources since the ASRC circuits exist (1998) are "right" and you don't really need to worry about. Look at the Caiman, a £250-dac : do you think it is a source to worry about ? ;)
Hi Dimitri,
Just out of interest, what DACs have you compared the Beresford to? Have you heard it outperform something significantly more expensive?
I ask because it's always useful to know what someone's current benchmark has been judged against :)
Marco.
Hi Dimitri,
Just out of interest, what DACs have you compared the Beresford to? Have you heard it outperform something significantly more expensive?
I ask because it's always useful to know what someone's current benchmark has been judged against :)
Marco.
The Caiman did not "outperformed significantly" more expensive dacs imho. But it does come to the same quality as many dacs around £1000 (my Northstar192, for instance) which is already a huge performance. Other comparable (expensive) dacs include 3DLab, Benchmark, Lavry, YBA and Stello.
I was interested mainly in comparing it to under £500-dacs (I won't give you the list of the number of dacs I listened under this price : it is a long list...). At this price range, it really outperforms a great number of them.
As far as I am concerned, there used to be a "gap" separating good-sounding dacs from the others : it used to be at around £1500 a few years ago.
This "gap" is actually at around £400 and keeps going down... You can find very well-made (with discrete output stages and great power sections) dacs at this price.
Good news for our pocket ! :)
Cheers, Dimitri. Thanks for the info. It's always useful when someone expands on their experiences. I'm sure that other Caiman users will be able to relate to that :)
Marco.
Cheers, Dimitri. Thanks for the info. It's always useful when someone expands on their experiences. I'm sure that other Caiman users will be able to relate to that :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. :)
I guess everyone has a specialty in this hobby : some know a lot about turntables, amps, arms, cables or speakers. Mine is listening to D/A converters... :eyebrows:
The Grand Wazoo
11-12-2009, 11:09
All this came about because a certain company only had one product to sell- a turntable, so naturally, they'd want you to spend more on it! It allowed them to be imaginative with their price structure. The principle that they espoused is obviously an understandable one......up to a point, & fits well with the idea of an evolving system, constantly being upgraded. Especially useful if later down the line you want to start selling other types of components......
However, price differences do not equal a measurement of quality.
And some folk want to make a single purchase & not be locked into a cycle of upgrades.
It surely should be a matter of balancing suitable combinations rather than an exercise in cost accounting?
alfie2902
11-12-2009, 12:09
Hi Alfie,
What you say is 100% correct. I've also no doubt that the system you heard was excellent :)
As is usual with these things; the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. Absolutist views one way or the other, in terms of source first or speakers first (or whatever first) are unlikely to produce the best result, so the answer is to seek a balanced approach.
Quite simply, there is no universal 'best way' of building a system!
However, in saying that, if the speaker/room interaction is wrong (and I mean 'wrong' from an acoustic point of view due to the shape and/or structure of the room) then you're f*cked no matter what's going on further down the chain...
In those circumstances, one needs to work backwards (perhaps also try some room treatments); or preferably put the system in a better room (or move house)! ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
A balanced approach is what I was getting at! :) The system should be built as an whole, quite difficult though unless you've got lots of money! Most of us upgrade 1 item at a time & mistakes are easy to make along the way!
Some 20+ years ago a good 'FE' friend of mine, using the methodology of the time spent the lions share of his budget on an LP12 & whichever Linn arm it was. The rest of his budget was spent on cart, then amp, then speakers getting cheaper down the chain. TBH it sounded rather poor & I loved the LP12 at the time but the amp/speakers just couldn't do it justice! I'd built my system around my Systemdek III but with a more equal share of the budget to the amp/speakers! My good friend was quite pissed off with the results we were getting!
Now though, I'm starting to warm to the idea of building a balanced system back from the speakers. IMO this allows any upgrade further up the chain to be heard to better effect!
I heard the above mentioned 'expensive' system at Definitive Audio (His statement horns are stunning!) whilst trying out the OBX-R2 crossover which I intend to add to my OBX-R soon. Then amps to suit (probably work out expensive as this little KEL impresses me more & more) then I'll look towards my souces, they're not to shabby, they should be good enough for now to help with the selection of amps even better when the DP-6000 is plinthed! :)
A balanced synergistic system is my goal but there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat ;)
It's just occurred to me another fundamental FE ideal over the more traditional approach to equipment choice...
Alan Shaw of Harbeth is a polite, talented and extremely driven speaker designer, with his roots totally in the measurement led and subjectively confirmed way of doing things (he does listen VERY carefully, as anyone who's heard his products should be able to testify). There have been occasional comments about 40.1 owners with bass "problems" and Alan is adamant that the rooms are at fault...
What I'm trying to say is that traditional ways of doing it are to buy a speaker that is "correct" and tailor the room and positioning to make it work best (these problems when analysed were room-modes being set off by the extended bass of the 40.1 at one main bass frequency plus harmonics). The FE way (and Richard Dunn's I think) has been to accept that domestic rooms are often rubbish for acoustics and to tailor the speaker choice around the room so that the two work together as well as possible.
I found from experience that for pro use, the former approach is the best way, a truthful speaker in a sorted room being just right for monitoring IMO. Domestically, I think either approach has a place to be honest, as many living rooms with other people using them are difficult to change round to properly accommodate the gear.
In older LP based systems, the source first approach is still relevant if not taken to extremes and this is still easily demonstrable I think, as a well fettled turntable/arm and cartridge will always improve a modest LP based system IMO. With a good cheapish CD player like a Rega Apollo (Planet in my times), I found you can take far more liberties as the CD player was very capable and covered its tracks so well...
Spectral Morn
11-12-2009, 18:46
What I'm trying to say is that traditional ways of doing it are to buy a speaker that is "correct" and tailor the room and positioning to make it work best (these problems when analysed were room-modes being set off by the extended bass of the 40.1 at one main bass frequency plus harmonics). The FE way (and Richard Dunn's I think) has been to accept that domestic rooms are often rubbish for acoustics and to tailor the speaker choice around the room so that the two work together as well as possible.
That would be the way I would do it. Though the speaker picked would be the very best that will work in the particular room (The other approach is to risky...I have seen way to many failures of this approach)
I found from experience that for pro use, the former approach is the best way, a truthful speaker in a sorted room being just right for monitoring IMO. Domestically, I think either approach has a place to be honest, as many living rooms with other people using them are difficult to change round to properly accommodate the gear.
Indeed both approaches can have there place, but the later is the better imho.
In older LP based systems, the source first approach is still relevant if not taken to extremes and this is still easily demonstrable I think, as a well fettled turntable/arm and cartridge will always improve a modest LP based system IMO. With a good cheapish CD player like a Rega Apollo (Planet in my times), I found you can take far more liberties as the CD player was very capable and covered its tracks so well...
Sorry I don't agree with you on that point, in regard to digital. Digital front ends do show improvements as you go up the price ladder (That has, and is my experience) as do TT and other front ends. There is the odd item that hits above its price in performance, but those are rare imho, and that particular item may not sit well in your system. Perhaps the Rega is one such, but I think it would be a risky venture to assume any digital item will sit well. You must always try these items out, never make assumptions in order...TO GET A BALANCED SYSTEM imho.
Regards D S D L
The issue is one of the missus cramming the room with useless bits of furniture (if you gave her the Albert Hall she'd do exactly the same) and then tell you there's no room for those bloody great big 'orrible monstrosities.
I thought this forum was supposed to promote stereos, not silly stereotypes - please, Steve - it doesn't give credence to when you have something sensible to say, IMHO
Rare Bird
11-12-2009, 21:30
I thought this forum was supposed to promote steros, not silly stereotypes - please, Steve - it doesn't give credence to when you have something sensible to say, IMHO
Like anywhere else is your room not dominated by stereo equipment you not worthy, thing is hi-fi are actually unimportant in the real house world.
Hi Andre,
What's a "real house world" though, mate? If you're talking about your average 'Joe Bloggs', then I completely agree - a hi-fi system (and the location of such) would be relatively unimportant.
However, if you're talking about the enthusiasts who populate forums such as this, then obviously not... Their "real house world" would be rather different in that respect! ;)
Out of interest, roughly what size is the lounge where your hi-fi system is - any chance of a picture of the layout? It would be useful to see where you're coming from :)
Hi Alex,
I take your point about Steve's remark, but sadly the point he's making often reflects what happens in many 'hi-fi households' where some women take way too much advantage... One only has to read the comments made on some forums about 'WAF restrictions' being strictly and rigorously imposed to see evidence of what Steve is referring to. Obviously though, others here and you are lucky enough not to come into that category! :cool:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-12-2009, 21:51
I was goin to refuse my missis a house based on inapropriateness for hifi .. The hifi is important in my house!!
I take your point about Steve's remark, but sadly the point he's making often reflects what happens in many 'hi-fi households' where some women take way too much advantage... One only has to read the comments made on some forums about 'WAF restrictions' being strictly and rigorously imposed to see evidence of what Steve is referring to. Obviously though, others here and you are lucky enough not to come into that category! :cool:
Like for everything else, "balance" is important in a household. ;)
Indeed, Dimitri, and "compromise" is, too :)
Sometimes though, it's only one person (man or woman) in the relationship who's doing all (or most) of the compromising! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Not good that : you can't build a solid relationship on continuous one-sided compromise. At least I think so...but I may be wrong ?
Not good that : you can't build a solid relationship on continuous one-sided compromise.
Unfortunately, Dimitri, in Britain it's something an awful lot of men (certainly those into hi-fi whom I've read about) seem quite willing to put up with - almost as if its somehow 'normal' and to be expected :doh:
That's certainly not my perception of how things are in the likes of Italy or Germany, where I also have experience of living.
However, not all women are selfish like that (thank God), as I can testify to, and no doubt many other people here also.
This is an old story, though. If you want to know more about 'WAF' (Wife Acceptability Factor), try searching the archives; there's plenty reading material in there! ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
11-12-2009, 22:23
I'll do a layout later Marco, but the living Room's the living Room, i have a little corner which is purposly situated in an area the wife doesnt venture. The speakers are each side of the TV cos the sofa is directly across room from both (don't care two hoots how far apart they are, axis etc etc..). Nothing to do with the wife dealing the cards, i myself don't even want the stereo in a proper place! A lot of folk don't realise that even tho most men let hifi & music dominate most of their lives they aint that intrested in farting about with stereo placements really.
Like i've said many times before, Headphone listerning does away with so much bollox it's great..
No worries. It's just to get an angle on what you're referring to, that's all :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
11-12-2009, 22:37
I was goin to refuse my missis a house based on inapropriateness for hifi .. The hifi is important in my house!!
Dunno about you Hamish but the best/enjoyable time with hifi was when i was young at home with mi hifi just chucked on a target rack in a small box room.. The most unenjoyable times is now when you let placement, this cable that cable, my cocks bigger than your cock get in the way..
Marriage/Significant Other=Partnership - a Partnership makes joint decisions about things which affect them either individually or as a couple - if one side of the partnership has an unhealthy dominance over the other, then there is a serious issue with the relationship, and it has bugger all to do with hifi! But, as Marco has said, it is a tired subject. However, I would be interested in learning how many of us truly are the "brow-beaten little weeds" (my description!) that allow our partners to dominate us to the degree where they would cram the Albert Hall with useless bits of furniture (implicitly against our wishes) and at the same time not respecting our interests or desires (my wife certainly doesn't fall into this category, and I certainly wouldn't "put up" with a woman like that!)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.