View Full Version : Historic day for Great Britain!
So Boris has helped wreck the country and now slinks off, and the Ice Queen wants to be prime minister :(
Et tu Gove?
BTH K10A
30-06-2016, 21:32
An agreement that would be signed the second the 2 years was up. You don't really believe the 'no negotiation' thing?
Of course this assumes that 50 is invoked at some point. I predict if that does happen/ which is by no means certain, a deal will have been cut in the backrooms by that point. The EU does have a track record of breaking its own rules when it suits.
Where is the evidence to support your assertions, or are you making it up as you go along :lol:
Why would you assume that would not be invoked? To ignore the will of the people would be undemocratic would it not?
Spectral Morn
30-06-2016, 22:06
Et tu Gove?
Indeed, coward.
walpurgis
30-06-2016, 22:16
I still say Gove looks like Himmler. Is it an omen? :eek:
Geeza burd for PM, sez da Marco-boy... That Andrea slapper would soon 'tober' the hairy-arsed hoorays in Westmonster! :eyebrows:;)
Marco.
walpurgis
30-06-2016, 22:39
At least the theoretical opportunity to f##k the government, rather than the other way around would be a possibilty.
Where is the evidence to support your assertions, or are you making it up as you go along :lol:
Why would you assume that would not be invoked? To ignore the will of the people would be undemocratic would it not?
I'm not assuming anything. I'm exploring the possibilities given the limited courses of action possible on both sides. It is not impossible that the referendum result will be ignored. Legally it is an option, although I don't think there is any precedent for ignoring a referendum result. If 50 is not invoked then it would seem there must still be some sop given to the 17 million who voted out. Quite what I don't know. In any case until it is invoked there is a chance it will not be. That is a fact.
Shamelessly lifted etc etc
-a6HNXtdvVQ
Not sure who would be more horrified? Probably Adolf
Good find though
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 17:46
Love it. A bit of brilliance there! :)
BTH K10A
01-07-2016, 18:56
So Boris has helped wreck the country and now slinks off, and the Ice Queen wants to be prime minister :(
Boris was probably unsure whether he had the whole hearted support of that Tory Grandee Michael Heseltine :confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hx_BxzAjxg
yeah, was just wondering, where have they all gone ??? The Cameron who initiated the referendum, the Farage Nigel and the Boris who promoted the campaign... where are they ? Although I supported the leave, I cannot understand why everyone directly involved has just evaporated. That's unacceptable.
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 19:22
yeah, was just wondering, where have they all gone ??? The Cameron who initiated the referendum, the Farage Nigel and the Boris who promoted the campaign... where are they ? Although I supported the leave, I cannot understand why everyone directly involved has just evaporated. That's unacceptable.
I'd complain if I were you. :)
Try 'XXX-RATED RED-HOT HOUSEWIVES' on 08771 664995. Calls cost £5 per minute, minus tissues, and ask for Andrea ;)
Marco.
yeah, was just wondering, where have they all gone ??? The Cameron who initiated the referendum, the Farage Nigel and the Boris who promoted the campaign... where are they ? Although I supported the leave, I cannot understand why everyone directly involved has just evaporated. That's unacceptable.
In fairness to Flange he did pop into the European Parliament to rub their noses in it a bit. Highly entertaining. Much face-palming ensued.
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 20:10
Is that Bert Flange?
Nah! It's that Finula Flange that works at Madam Rita's Gentlemens Club. The girl with the very big bits.
BTH K10A
01-07-2016, 20:12
In fairness to Flange he did pop into the European Parliament to rub their noses in it a bit. Highly entertaining. Much face-palming ensued.
I think the face palming was done by a guy called Vytenis Andriukaitis when Farage said none of them had ever done a proper job in their lives. It can only have been to conceal the laughter :lol::lol::lol:
Farage is obviously a more accomplished individual than Mr Andriukaitishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis_Andriukaitis :rfl:
I think he said 'virtually none of you' - which is probably true although our definitions of a 'proper job' may differ.
Incidentally if Farage has managed to get us out of the EU his name is likely to last a lot longer than Andriukaitis who, and let's be frank here, no-one has ever heard of.
I think he said 'virtually none of you' - which is probably true although our definitions of a 'proper job' may differ.
Incidentally if Farage has managed to get us out of the EU his name is likely to last a lot longer than Andriukaitis who, and let's be frank here, no-one has ever heard of.
Do you not think that it might be worthwhile actually checking your facts before so glibly saying "it was probably true", and then insinuating that the jobs they may have held would not meet your standards of proper work? The huge disrespect that you show so carelessly to so many serious people does you no favours at all in your attempts to be taken seriously yourself.
Farage is a disgrace, and I am ashamed that he represents my country in whatever pathetic capacity it may be, and I have nothing but contempt for him.
I have yet to hear anyone here condemn his borrowing of Nazi propaganda for the poster be unveiled the day Jo Cox was murdered. He is a vile man, and if we leave Europe you will see where he next points the blame for all our problems which will still exist.
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BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 06:05
I think he said 'virtually none of you' - which is probably true although our definitions of a 'proper job' may differ.
Incidentally if Farage has managed to get us out of the EU his name is likely to last a lot longer than Andriukaitis who, and let's be frank here, no-one has ever heard of.
Who gives a toss whether Farages name lasts longer? I personally hold more stock in a persons achievements and endeavours than fame and notoriety. If you had not heard Andriukaitis before thats probably due in part to his humility and in part to the apathy the British have shown towards the EU parliament.
Who gives a toss whether Farages name lasts longer? I personally hold more stock in a persons achievements and endeavours than fame and notoriety. If you had not heard Andriukaitis before thats probably due in part to his humility and in part to the apathy the British have shown towards the EU parliament.
???????? Are you serious? We've barely had a credible UK parliament for the past decade and a half, been lied to, been forced into illegal wars, had the economy wrecked and lost faith in politics, and the political system. Allied to that, there is a very healthy deep distrust of the European Parliament and its great unelected pulling the strings, and we're meant to know who all 27 member states MEPs and Commissioners are and what they do? Get real man! It's got less to do with humility and more to do with obscurity.
???????? Are you serious? We've barely had a credible UK parliament for the past decade and a half, been lied to, been forced into illegal wars, had the economy wrecked and lost faith in politics, and the political system. Allied to that, there is a very healthy deep distrust of the European Parliament and its great unelected pulling the strings, and we're meant to know who all 27 member states MEPs and Commissioners are and what they do? Get real man! It's got less to do with humility and more to do with obscurity.
If I might suggest some thinking:
- Illegal wars are not forced by EU, but NATO.
- National parliaments and governments are responsible for 90% that goes wrong in any country.
- National governments and MEPs are responsible for 100% that goes wrong re development in the EU.
Some questions I’d like to be answered
- Where are the people responsible for the Brexit campaign?
- Where are their promised solutions to ALL the problems?
personally I am fed up with being lied to and buggered by populists without any common sense. They are stuffing their pockets with taxpayer’s money and denying any responsibility.
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 07:24
Who used that term? I must've missed it, as I must admit to only skimming through the 'in depth' political side of the discussion, and the points made therein, as it doesn't interest me. Regardless, you're quite right, that term is completely unacceptable and will be moderated.
The message here on this thread is for everyone involved to stick strictly to debating the thread topic, without modifying words to suit your agenda, which others may find offensive.
Similarly, as Macca points out, the bandying about of the word 'racist', and applying it to the person behind a political view, as a definitive fact, is simply not on, as I don't believe (unless evidence otherwise proves differently) that anyone's political stance so far expressed here is genuinely that of a racist.
Therefore, let's leave that word out of the debate entirely, unless it is *actually* deserved, as a result of behaviour committed that irrefutably proves it [and I'll be the judge of that], in which case the person(s) responsible will be banned, as REAL racists are not welcome on this forum.
Marco.
Marco, it would seem the police might think differently
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-probing-rapeugees-not-welcome-7638457
Responses highlighted below:
If I might suggest some thinking:
- Illegal wars are not forced by EU, but NATO.
Were you actually around in the UK or wearing a tin foil hat when Bliar marched us into Iraq? Britain's enty into that war was voted in by parliament who were lied to!
- National parliaments and governments are responsible for 90% that goes wrong in any country.
A statement so sweeping that it's meaningless
- National governments and MEPs are responsible for 100% that goes wrong re development in the EU.
Are you serious? Do you know how the EU actually works? National governments on their own have NO control over how the EU works, with perhaps the exception of France and Germany
Some questions I’d like to be answered
- Where are the people responsible for the Brexit campaign
And where are the remain camp, and why doesn't Cameron lead us through Brexit if he is so concerned with the welfare of this country instead of throwing his toys out of the pram. UK politicians, by and large, have shown themselves to be a bunch of self serving elitists
- Where are their promised solutions to ALL the problems?
personally I am fed up with being lied to and buggered by populists without any common sense. They are stuffing their pockets with taxpayer’s money and denying any responsibility.
You have just described most of the EU parliament, well done, we knew you'd see sense in the end :lol:
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 07:45
???????? Are you serious? We've barely had a credible UK parliament for the past decade and a half, been lied to, been forced into illegal wars, had the economy wrecked and lost faith in politics, and the political system. Allied to that, there is a very healthy deep distrust of the European Parliament and its great unelected pulling the strings, and we're meant to know who all 27 member states MEPs and Commissioners are and what they do? Get real man! It's got less to do with humility and more to do with obscurity.
You complain on one hand of the great unelected EU parliament pulling the strings and on another the barely credible UK parliament of the last 15 years which was elected. You seem to have no trust in anything.
Are you claiming the EU took us into illegal wars or was that down to the accountable democratically elected UK government
My point is that before making comment or undertaking any action, the prudent person ascertains the facts. The information is readily available but if you choose not to be informed then that's your lookout. It would be unreasonable to expect people to know who everyone id and what the do but how can you make any informed decisions about the EU if you know nothing about the people and process?
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 07:57
There e is a certain irony here :lol:
Originally Posted by Reffc
Were you actually around in the UK or wearing a tin foil hat when Bliar marched us into Iraq? Britain's enty into that war was voted in by parliament who were lied to!
Bottom line is that there is a total lack of leadership. Be it in the EU or the UK. All these politicians just bail out when things get complicated and when leadership is most needed.
Do you not think that it might be worthwhile actually checking your facts before so glibly saying "it was probably true", and then insinuating that the jobs they may have held would not meet your standards of proper work? The huge disrespect that you show so carelessly to so many serious people does you no favours at all in your attempts to be taken seriously yourself.
Correct I do show disrespect to all politicians including but not limited to those from the EU. They are nothing more than common thieves. Out of Europe there will at least be less of them to steal from us whilst mouthing their platitudes. I have no interest in the individual personalities, just what they achieve or don't. I am only interested in outcomes.
As for the poster I did say at the time that I think UKIP are badly advised. The reaction was over the top but then what do you expect from the 'anyone who disagrees with me is a wacist?' crowd. No depth of analysis whatsoever. Just loud, shrill shouts and insults. I find the fact that so many otherwise intelligent people seem to take the EU at face value to be far more concerning.
I also notice that no-one was able to explain why the EU is not racist, given it excludes people from outside the EU from entering to live and work here
Not that I am surprised, logic and idiocy can rarely stand together in the same room.
As for the poster I did say at the time that I think UKIP are badly advised. The reaction was over the top but then what do you expect from the 'anyone who disagrees with me is a wacist?' crowd. No depth of analysis whatsoever. Just loud, shrill shouts and insults.
So, just to be clear, you won't condemn the fact that it was lifted directly from Nazi propaganda, and will only say that you think they were badly advised, and that it was over the top for anyone to point out the fact that it was directly lifted from Nazi propaganda?
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walpurgis
02-07-2016, 10:22
So, just to be clear, you won't condemn the fact that it was lifted directly from Nazi propaganda, and will only say that you think they were badly advised, and that it was over the top for anyone to point out the fact that it was directly lifted from Nazi propaganda?
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Not a fact. An allegation. Somebody must have spent a heck of a lot of time going through archive photos to find one that resembled the UKIP poster in order to make that accusation. THAT is propaganda.
Although it bears some resemblance to Nazi propaganda I have not seen any evidence that it was 'directly lifted'. I am happy to examine and consider such evidence if you can present it.
I am not a member of UKIP nor have I ever voted for them. I agree with their policies on the EU and climate change. That is about the extent of the common ground I have with them. I consider white supremacists to be racists. I don't consider people who have concerns about mass immigration to be racists. This would seem to be where we differ. Are there any white supremacists in UKIP? Maybe, I would not deny the possibility. There are a few around here where I live, as it is BNP heartland. I have debated with them. Their position is illogical but they don't see it even when pointed out to them. This is also true of those who cry racist in an attempt to stifle the legitimate views of others. This tactic will work on the weak minded. It will not work on me.
walpurgis
02-07-2016, 10:39
Shamelessly lifted etc etc
-a6HNXtdvVQ
Just watched this again. Even funnier second time. :D
You can't beat a good Downfall parody.
I don't consider people who have concerns about mass immigration to be racists. This would seem to be where we differ.
Can you point to where it is that I have ever said anything that would suggest that is what I think?
"Directly lifted" was a bad use of words. I shall change that to "extremely similar to Nazi propaganda", though I imagine there will be a defence for that as well, maybe?
As a reminder, here's what the poster looked like! (I think this will stick to Nigel Garage like Gove's idiotic "we've had enough of experts" comment)
https://www.change.org/p/prosecute-nigel-farage-under-the-racial-and-religious-hatred-act-2006?recruiter=299293149&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-share_petition-reason_msg
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walpurgis
02-07-2016, 11:26
"Directly lifted" was a bad use of words. I shall change that to "extremely similar to Nazi propaganda", though I imagine there will be a defence for that as well, maybe?
As a reminder, here's what the poster looked like! (I think this will stick to Nigel Garage like Gove's idiotic "we've had enough of experts" comment)
https://www.change.org/p/prosecute-nigel-farage-under-the-racial-and-religious-hatred-act-2006?recruiter=299293149&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-share_petition-reason_msg
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As I suggested. Efforts were no doubt made to find a Nazi Propaganda image that could be used against Farage.
It's not an unheard of strategy. Look long enough and images with similar characteristics can be found for just about any situation.
As I suggested. Efforts were no doubt made to find a Nazi Propaganda image that could be used against Farage.
The concerning thing is that they independently came up with a propaganda strategy that was the same.
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Well propaganda is a pretty well worn path, and always has similarities with other successful ones at some point. That said i am not saying it wasnt coincidence, but it could just as easily be. Only the perpretators will know.
Anyways we are getting to close to connecting out voters to nazis again i think.
walpurgis
02-07-2016, 11:42
Anyways we are getting to close to connecting out voters to nazis again i think.
Sorry Grant. I shall be a good boy and not post anything like this again :) ;): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43367-Is-it-just-me&highlight=Himmler
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 11:49
As I suggested. Efforts were no doubt made to find a Nazi Propaganda image that could be used against Farage.
It's not an unheard of strategy. Look long enough and images with similar characteristics can be found for just about any situation.
It's similarity to Nazi propaganda footage of migrants shown in a BBC documentary from 2005 was commented on fairly quickly. The film footage is not too difficult to find online
walpurgis
02-07-2016, 11:52
The film footage is not too difficult to find online
That was my point.
Firebottle
02-07-2016, 12:00
I don't see the racist or religious slur or denigration in that poster.
Anyone looking at it can only make assumptions about the ethnicity or religious beliefs of the people shown.
It conveys the message 'too many' to me, probably what a lot of Leave voters actually took umbridge about.
Just my 2p
Can you point to where it is that I have ever said anything that would suggest that is what I think?
"Directly lifted" was a bad use of words. I shall change that to "extremely similar to Nazi propaganda", though I imagine there will be a defence for that as well, maybe?
As a reminder, here's what the poster looked like! (I think this will stick to Nigel Garage like Gove's idiotic "we've had enough of experts" comment)
https://www.change.org/p/prosecute-nigel-farage-under-the-racial-and-religious-hatred-act-2006?recruiter=299293149&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-share_petition-reason_msg
If you don't think people with legitimate concerns about immigration are racists then we have no disagreement. So I don't understand the relevance of bringing up the UKIP poster?
I'm not defending it. I have no interest in defending it. It was nothing to do with me. My entirely unemotional and non-partisan take on it was that Farage is badly advised. But I knew that prior to that particular incident in any case. If you are going to campaign for reduced immigration, giving your opponents ammunition for their accusations of racism (especially given that is the only counter-argument they seem to have) is pretty stupid.
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 12:11
That was my point.
The point is that it took very little effort at all which sort of makes me wonder why you are trying to defend Farrage on this. Even the Ukip’s Douglas Carswell thought the poster morally wrong
. Even the Ukip’s Douglas Carswell thought the poster morally wrong
Which begs the question: did he see the poster before it was released to the public/press? And if so why did he not object? And if he did object and was over-ruled why did he not then resign in protest?
You cannot take anything any politician says at face value.
The poster was wrong. Stupid really. Whoever advised him on that one is a f*** idiot. But then, Nigel Farage could have made his own mind up about its contents and the consequences of making it public. Equally idiotic, was that latest remark in the EU parliament. Totally unnecessary and unfounded. But that doesn't make him anything near a Nazi. Remarks portraying him as that are just as unfounded and stupid as the content of the poster.
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 12:56
The poster was wrong. Stupid really. Whoever advised him on that one is a f*** idiot. But then, Nigel Farage could have made his own mind up about its contents and the consequences of making it public. Equally idiotic, was that latest remark in the EU parliament. Totally unnecessary and unfounded. But that doesn't make him anything near a Nazi. Remarks portraying him as that are just as unfounded and stupid as the content of the poster.
I'm not sure anyone said he was a Nazi, just that his poster was the same as Nazi propaganda.
I'm not sure anyone said he was a Nazi, just that his poster was the same as Nazi propaganda.
Which, in itself, is overstating the case.
Has anyone else ever watched any British or American WW2 propaganda films? You want to see racism check out the American anti-Japanese efforts. Every bit as bad as anything the Nazis produced. The British ones are more embarrasingly jingoistic than racist, but still calculably designed to instil hatred. The Nazis didn't invent racist propaganda and they were never the only group in history to use it.
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 13:16
If you don't think people with legitimate concerns about immigration are racists then we have no disagreement. So I don't understand the relevance of bringing up the UKIP poster?
I'm not defending it. I have no interest in defending it. It was nothing to do with me. My entirely unemotional and non-partisan take on it was that Farage is badly advised. But I knew that prior to that particular incident in any case. If you are going to campaign for reduced immigration, giving your opponents ammunition for their accusations of racism (especially given that is the only counter-argument they seem to have) is pretty stupid.
There was the economic argument but best not let truth get in the way.
The economic argument against Brexit or the economic argument against free movement of labour?
If the latter then I personally think that the optimal economic position is to allow the movement of labour, but to control it. Much the same as almost every other country in the world. (And the EU does it too, with regards to countries outside the EU.) This, to my understanding, is the position that UKIP take. That does not matter to me since a sensible approach to a problem is a sensible approach to a problem, regardless of who proposed it or what else they may believe in.
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 14:08
Whether we will be given free access without free movement.
Farage has promised taking control of our boarders and continued free trade access as did Boris and Co.
The EU think differently
walpurgis
02-07-2016, 14:13
The point is that it took very little effort at all which sort of makes me wonder why you are trying to defend Farrage on this.
Who said I was defending Farage? Assumptions and assertions were made about a poster. I can question that (or anything else!).
I actually quite like Farage. He's clever, blunt and to the point. Never mind his politics. I love the way he gets up the noses of smug, self righteous, 'holier than thou', sanctimonious people! And enjoys doing so.
walpurgis
02-07-2016, 14:20
Has anyone else ever watched any British or American WW2 propaganda films? You want to see racism check out the American anti-Japanese efforts. Every bit as bad as anything the Nazis produced. The British ones are more embarrasingly jingoistic than racist, but still calculably designed to instil hatred. The Nazis didn't invent racist propaganda and they were never the only group in history to use it.
Ah. But we live in 'politically correct' times now Martin.
Of course that would go straight out the window if there was strife and war again. People are hypocrites.
Whether we will be given free access without free movement.
Farage has promised taking control of our boarders and continued free trade access as did Boris and Co.
The EU think differently
'Given' ? Not a question of what we will be 'given.' You still imagine that this negotiation will be all one -way traffic. I really don't understand that. The EU is not holding all the cards.
BTH K10A
02-07-2016, 15:58
'Given' ? Not a question of what we will be 'given.' You still imagine that this negotiation will be all one -way traffic. I really don't understand that. The EU is not holding all the cards.
Not one way traffic but the whole process heavily favours the EU and there are other political considerations
It appears that the leave camp did not fully understand the exit and negotiation process http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36682735 and, whilst it may upset the Germans it seems certain that the French will scupper any circumnavigation of the rules to stave any threat from Marine Le Pen.
At present any agreement will need to be passed by all 42 different stages of parliaments in the 27 member countries. I understand any of these has the power of veto. The best hope for Brexit will be reliance on one of the principles they most detest, the unelected bureaucrat and hope that Juncker gets his way and cuts out member countries from international trade negotiations and leaves it all up to the Brussels bureaucrats.
In the meantime we will only have WRO rules to trade under until such time an agreement is ratified.
So, what was the plan again....
I think we agree that there was never a plan as no-one expected leave to win.
However it is in the financial and social interests of the EU to cut a deal. I do not believe for one second that they will only talk trade once the 2 year time period is up. There may be no official negotiations prior to that, but there will be back room negotiations, probably by proxy.
There is still the hurdle of Article 50 to overcome. If it is never invoked then the EU may feel it has nothing to worry about and can continue to bluster. If it is then they will have to get serious as it starts to become about food on the tables. Theirs as well as ours.
However, with the referendum mandate in hand it may be possible to use mere the threat of invoking 50 to get a satisfactory concession on the free movement of labour, something that might be sufficient to assuage leave voters that they have at least in part achieved some of what they wanted. This would require some highly competent negotiation of course. I am not convinced that any of the politicians likely to be doing that negotiation are of sufficient ability. I was wondering if this would be a 'commeth the hour, commeth the man' moment for Boris but it appears either he, or the Parliamentary party, are not keen. I think the grass roots members would vote for him if he had stood, but then he would end up in the same untenable situation as Corbyn is now.
walpurgis
02-07-2016, 16:59
I see Corbyn has had a haircut and beard trim. Is this the new image, if so who is he trying to impress?
thought he had quit along with all the other quitters
I saw his speech the other night. Once he warmed up he spoke well, quite eloquently and passionately, until he started off on a tangent about what a great thing the windmills are. Oh dear. Heart in right place, brain in la la land.
The BBC only showed the bit where he was heckled, which was remarkably biased but then I suspect they are Blairites almost to a man.
Cameronites at moment as his finger is on the licence button
Cameron's dead in the water; no-one gives a toss what he thinks any more. The BBC like the rest of us will be waiting to see what rough beast slouches towards Bethlehem after the Tory leadership election. If it's that gobshite Gove, we're all stuffed, and the BBC will be broken up and sold off to Rupert fucking Murdoch.
I don't think Gove is any worse or better than any of the others. None inspire confidence. Given what needs to be done we really need someone switched on and very competent, with a great deal of experience in business. Not sure there is anyone in the running who even comes close to that description.
I don't think Gove is any worse or better than any of the others. None inspire confidence. Given what needs to be done we really need someone switched on and very competent, with a great deal of experience in business. Not sure there is anyone in the running who even comes close to that description.
Gove is about as far from that description as I am from winning the 100 metres at the Rio Olympics. He doesn't trust 'experts' so it's not like he can call on them for help.
I think we agree that there was never a plan as no-one expected leave to win.
What, that collection of opportunists, dingbats and clueless spivs leading the Brexit campaign didn't have a plan? Well, I am surprised.
What, that collection of opportunists, dingbats and clueless spivs leading the Brexit campaign didn't have a plan? Well, I am surprised.
Although equally the opportunists, dingbats and clueless spivs leading the Remain campaign didn't have a plan B in the event they lost. Unless you count resigning, which I don't.
If Corbyn had any idea he would have had a plan B prepared and, if he had, now step forward with it. But he doesn't because he never thought to bother to make one.
Really the curtain has been swept aside and UK politics has finally been revealed in all its idiocy. These people have been having us all on for years. All the parties, almost all the MPs. They are all absolutely bloody useless and just in it for themselves - I mean we all knew that anyway but we finally have concrete proof.
[…]
All the parties, almost all the MPs. They are all absolutely bloody useless and just in it for themselves - I mean we all knew that anyway but we finally have concrete proof.
That’s the only positive outcome of this useless Brexit votum – don’t ever let have populists more than 50%-
- They do not have any solution whatsoever
- They do not want to solve anything
- This would only lose them their future -> problem solved nothing to rave against
but as you said mainstream politicians are even too useless to argue that to a point their voters will be able to understand …
=8-((
pgarrish
03-07-2016, 06:10
Although equally the opportunists, dingbats and clueless spivs leading the Remain campaign didn't have a plan B in the event they lost. Unless you count resigning, which I don't.
If Corbyn had any idea he would have had a plan B prepared and, if he had, now step forward with it. But he doesn't because he never thought to bother to make one.
Really the curtain has been swept aside and UK politics has finally been revealed in all its idiocy. These people have been having us all on for years. All the parties, almost all the MPs. They are all absolutely bloody useless and just in it for themselves - I mean we all knew that anyway but we finally have concrete proof.
Ah but this is because we don't pay enough to get 'good' MPs..... just think how much better off we'd be with mega-bucks city types / CEOs in charge :doh:
BTH K10A
03-07-2016, 07:01
Marco, it would seem the police might think differently
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-probing-rapeugees-not-welcome-7638457
Still awaiting a response :popcorn:
Although equally the opportunists, dingbats and clueless spivs leading the Remain campaign didn't have a plan B in the event they lost. Unless you count resigning, which I don't.
If Corbyn had any idea he would have had a plan B prepared and, if he had, now step forward with it. But he doesn't because he never thought to bother to make one.
Really the curtain has been swept aside and UK politics has finally been revealed in all its idiocy. These people have been having us all on for years. All the parties, almost all the MPs. They are all absolutely bloody useless and just in it for themselves - I mean we all knew that anyway but we finally have concrete proof.
And therein lies the nub of the problem Martin. It's of no value whatsoever to even be debating the relative merits or drawbacks of "Remain" or "Leave" but very worthwhile now looking towards political reform within the UK. It is long overdue. There almost has to be some form of screening, not just to check that those representing "us" have a brain (remember the Spitting Image sketches of the '80's...."our President's brain is missing"?) but so that they have the experience and taken needed to hold down their respective offices. The trouble is that the gap between the talents needed for local government and national government have been growing for decades but the characters involved have fallen short and into the abyss by the time they get to the top, so have nothing to offer bar populism and arrogance. Fact is, democracy has spoken and now is the time for strong leadership which requires absolutely putting to one side one's own feelings about Brexit (for the person in charge) and just getting on with things in a businessman and statesman-like manner.
I fear too that we have no-one in the running capable of achieving that. May has been an utter disaster as Home Secretary and has done little for either the Police nor for curbing illegal immigration....not even getting a handle on numbers never mind controlling it. She has though proved to be a brilliant self-promoter, exuding confidence and the appearance of a steady hand at the tiller, but the reality is somewhat different. She has singularly failed to tackle the most pressing aspects of national police reform whilst at the same time openly criticising the ACPO deflecting responsibility. Her nick-name ought to be "slippery shoulders May". A dreadful woman.
Gove is a Murdoch lap dog without integrity, and it's incredulous that he went public with his whinging entry speech for the running. The Conservative party does in fact have suitable candidates in the wings, but they're not part of the senior brat-pack and would never be put forward by their self-serving peers for fear of reprisals to their careers. God help us with those now being the only option we have. I would far rather that the Tories had got behind bumbling Boris as he would only have been a caretaker PM, but better still that Cameron had done the decent thing and put the country first instead of himself. There is not other party in any better shape which is the truly frightening thing.
As you say Martin, none of them from any quarter had any plan as arrogance and playing games with British people came first. Well, it's not a game and as you say, all this farce has done is to open the curtains on what a totally useless pi*&-taking, self serving bunch of total numpties our politicians are. I do believe that we made absolutely the right decision as a nation. It's just a crying shame that we have no-one with a moral compass and balls of steel to see it through properly.
As you say Martin, none of them from any quarter had any plan as arrogance and playing games with British people came first. Well, it's not a game and as you say, all this farce has done is to open the curtains on what a totally useless pi*&-taking, self serving bunch of total numpties our politicians are. I do believe that we made absolutely the right decision as a nation. It's just a crying shame that we have no-one with a moral compass and balls of steel to see it through properly.
Very much agree. We need a Churchill, we get a Gove or a May. They are out of their depth, I fear.
Still awaiting a response :popcorn:
Sorry, Andy, I haven't been reading this thread for some time now, as not being a big fan of politics, it's of no real interest to me. I'm just about to read your PM, though.
Marco.
Very much agree. We need a Churchill, we get a Gove or a May. They are out of their depth, I fear.
So, having voted to leave without a plan or a clue, it now dawns on you that you need someone who doesn't exist to get us through the exit process. Maybe we can reconstruct Churchill from some DNA on one of his cigars at Chartwell.
The alternative is to get May in as leader asap, kick the Brexit can as far down the road as possible, and hope everyone forgets about the referendum result.
So, having voted to leave without a plan or a clue, it now dawns on you that you need someone who doesn't exist to get us through the exit process. Maybe we can reconstruct Churchill from some DNA on one of his cigars at Chartwell.
The alternative is to get May in as leader asap, kick the Brexit can as far down the road as possible, and hope everyone forgets about the referendum result.
Except that's as much a fairy tale as your version of Martin's view above. May knows that she has to invoke Article 50 as democracy is a dead duck if she does't and she's pledged to do just that. It will happen, we will leave. What matters is that the EU council hold the real bargaining chips and NOT the commission led by that British hating Juncker madman, so lets just pretend for a moment that he doesn't exist (and his tenure won't in due course). Tusk probably will do a deal with us, and far from the doom and gloom merchants saying that the cost of doing trade will be worst case WTO at a cost of 10 to 12% to the trade economy with Europe, the reality is that it will likely be more like 5 or 6%. The council and the national leaders hold the real power, not that unelected nitwit at the head of the commission, and who will the council listen to? The national leaders of course. Germany won't want £175m additional costs and France won't want potentially up to £75 to £100m costs. Germany cannot afford to subsidise the rest of the EU and the German electorate will soon start to take note of what it's costing THEM to remain within the EU, so the reality, ladies and gents, is that Europe will do a deal with us. It will cost us being out of Europe but not as much as the doom mongers claim. The FTSE has already recovered to pre-Brexit levels and a steady hand at the tiller should ensure a good deal for us.
The irony seems to be that if we succeed (unlikely) at remaining within the EFTA it will end up costing more for less, as we will lose our bargaining chips. Best thing is to forget the EFTA, swallow the 6% and concentrate then on re-negotiation world trade deals and rebuilding our economy. The £275m we shall save on our membership won't go into the NHS, but likely will be bargained against reduced taxation on the big banks to keep them within the UK by offering say a 5 year tax reduced stay. That, together with a compliance cost free UK financial zone will hurt EU banking deals but may be enough to secure a more outward global finance market. The building back up of industry now that the EU isn't asset stripping via stealth and protectionism will realistically take a decade or two, so the longer term picture looks a damned sight brighter than that for the EU experiment which, with Article 50 served, probably will collapse within 5 years as un-sustainable economically. The Commission hopefully will collapse and be disbanded, the Council will re-focus on a Common Market without political integration, and given time, that seems the most likely outcome. In that event, we will be back in like a rat up a drain pipe and the EU will welcome us back on those terms as it's a win-win all round.
It took the UK making this momentum decision to set these wheels in motion. It's not hard to see where things will progress given that the spoilt children currently in charge of the country get their damned acts together.
Ah; I thought you and Macca were saying that we're doomed without a Churchill figure, maybe I misunderstood.
walpurgis
03-07-2016, 20:47
Ah; I thought Macca and Walpurgis were saying that we're doomed without a Churchill figure, maybe I misunderstood.
Seems you did. I did not say that.
Seems you did. I did not say that.
And I corrected my post to remove my misidentification of your goodself with the plea for a new Churchill.
walpurgis
03-07-2016, 20:58
And I corrected my post to remove my misidentification of your goodself with the plea for a new Churchill.
Bad lad! :D
BTH K10A
04-07-2016, 06:04
Except that's as much a fairy tale as your version of Martin's view above. May knows that she has to invoke Article 50 as democracy is a dead duck if she does't and she's pledged to do just that. It will happen, we will leave. What matters is that the EU council hold the real bargaining chips and NOT the commission led by that British hating Juncker madman, so lets just pretend for a moment that he doesn't exist (and his tenure won't in due course). Tusk probably will do a deal with us, and far from the doom and gloom merchants saying that the cost of doing trade will be worst case WTO at a cost of 10 to 12% to the trade economy with Europe, the reality is that it will likely be more like 5 or 6%. The council and the national leaders hold the real power, not that unelected nitwit at the head of the commission, and who will the council listen to? The national leaders of course. Germany won't want £175m additional costs and France won't want potentially up to £75 to £100m costs. Germany cannot afford to subsidise the rest of the EU and the German electorate will soon start to take note of what it's costing THEM to remain within the EU, so the reality, ladies and gents, is that Europe will do a deal with us. It will cost us being out of Europe but not as much as the doom mongers claim. The FTSE has already recovered to pre-Brexit levels and a steady hand at the tiller should ensure a good deal for us.
The irony seems to be that if we succeed (unlikely) at remaining within the EFTA it will end up costing more for less, as we will lose our bargaining chips. Best thing is to forget the EFTA, swallow the 6% and concentrate then on re-negotiation world trade deals and rebuilding our economy. The £275m we shall save on our membership won't go into the NHS, but likely will be bargained against reduced taxation on the big banks to keep them within the UK by offering say a 5 year tax reduced stay. That, together with a compliance cost free UK financial zone will hurt EU banking deals but may be enough to secure a more outward global finance market. The building back up of industry now that the EU isn't asset stripping via stealth and protectionism will realistically take a decade or two, so the longer term picture looks a damned sight brighter than that for the EU experiment which, with Article 50 served, probably will collapse within 5 years as un-sustainable economically. The Commission hopefully will collapse and be disbanded, the Council will re-focus on a Common Market without political integration, and given time, that seems the most likely outcome. In that event, we will be back in like a rat up a drain pipe and the EU will welcome us back on those terms as it's a win-win all round.
It took the UK making this momentum decision to set these wheels in motion. It's not hard to see where things will progress given that the spoilt children currently in charge of the country get their damned acts together.
Are you saying that Joe's hypothesis is a fairytale and yours is not? :roll eyes: First you postulate a figure of 5 - 6% and then you treat 6% as if it were fact. Gove and Johnson would be proud of you :lol:
Also now seem to be agreeing with this man in that it's the elected bodies and member goverments who hold the power in the EU not unelected commissioners ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI
Paul, maybe you should apply for a job to help us negotiate it? Seems we need people rather desperately, and you clearly know the topic better than anyone you'd be negotiating with.
British negotiators for British trade deals!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160704/e5d4b4f6093e28a09f6ca76ced8d857e.jpg
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
Are you saying that Joe's hypothesis is a fairytale and yours is not? :roll eyes: First you postulate a figure of 5 - 6% and then you treat 6% as if it were fact. Gove and Johnson would be proud of you :lol:
Look, let me make this simple for you. No-one is saying the figures are facts, but LIKELY. Why on earth don't you just read what's been written instead of trying to push people's buttons all the time, which is both childish and unpleasant? Nope, you got the last point completely wrong too. What I said was that whilst the Commission may wield the power for now, the arrogance of the EU is that the commissioners and in particular Junckers, think that they can continue to ride rough-shod over the national leaders and electorate when what is more likely to happen is that the leaders will simply ignore the commission and make a deal. There's a lot of differences between what was written and the words you CONTINUALLY like to put into other people's mouths. It is utterly pointless debating anything with you as you put more spin on things that Alastair Campbell!!
Maybe we can reconstruct Churchill from some DNA on one of his cigars at Chartwell.
.
I'd assumed that was possible...
Seriously though I think it is those who voted to remain and keep taking it up the ass from the likes of Junkers who are now flailing around with no plan. You didn't expect to lose and now you have it is panic time. Call for another referendum, call everyone stupid or racist, and when all that fails go and sulk at the bottom of the garden.
Possibly one of least edifying things I've ever seen in my life.
At least some of those who wanted out do have an idea of where to go with it, unlike, it would seem, the politicians.
Seriously though, Martin, is it acceptable for a moderator to be characterising everyone with a different view to them as people who voted to "keep on taking it up the ass"?
And Paul, saying "look, let me make this simple for you" is aggressive, as debating tactics go.
There seems to be a double standard at work where you believe it perfectly okay to dismiss other people's opinions as "fairy tales", but when you are challenged it is "childish and unpleasant" behaviour.
:)
The article I posted a picture of seems to have got lost in the argument.
Does it not seem a glorious irony that our GREAT country may have to look to FOREIGNERS to negotiate our trade deals for us?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160704/fce649cf4906d7ebf3b45bd8ce2e2741.jpg
Seriously though, Martin, is it acceptable for a moderator to be characterising everyone with a different view to them as people who voted to "keep on taking it up the ass"?
And Paul, saying "look, let me make this simple for you" is aggressive, as debating tactics go.
There seems to be a double standard at work where you believe it perfectly okay to dismiss other people's opinions as "fairy tales", but when you are challenged it is "childish and unpleasant" behaviour.
:)
The article I posted a picture of seems to have got lost in the argument.
Does it not seem a glorious irony that our GREAT country may have to look to FOREIGNERS to negotiate our trade deals for us?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160704/fce649cf4906d7ebf3b45bd8ce2e2741.jpg
Is it? And putting words into peoples mouths or making them out to be liars isn't I take it? As Martin says, these reactions seem to typify the flailing around of some who voted to leave when they have nothing constructive to add to a debate themselves. They continually look to make personal snipes, which in my book, is the more aggressive (and pointless) approach. Stop, take a breath and take the emotion out for a moment (not you personally) and review the points that are being made. We are simply suggesting that there is a way forward, and it is a lot more positive than many have surmised if only the politicians can get their acts together. There is no need whatsoever for some to keep putting spin on things or attempting to push buttons as that doesn't win debates and isn't an edifying way to conduct ones self. We've seen enough of that between politicians without inviting it onto a close knit forum. And with that, I'm now bowing out as I have far better things to do with my time, and this has become all rather pointless.
Seriously though, Martin, is it acceptable for a moderator to be characterising everyone with a different view to them as people who voted to "keep on taking it up the ass"?
And Paul, saying "look, let me make this simple for you" is aggressive, as debating tactics go.
There seems to be a double standard at work where you believe it perfectly okay to dismiss other people's opinions as "fairy tales", but when you are challenged it is "childish and unpleasant" behaviour.
Good points, Robert, and no, none of the above is acceptable, but perhaps inevitable when forceful and entrenched opinions are held and being expressed by all parties in this debate, so we end up with the classic situation of 'The irresistible force meets the immovable object', and when neither side 'yields', frustration sets in and things start becoming personal, albeit more subtly than before.
Ok, has this thread run its course now, guys, because it seems that we're going round in circles and largely getting nowhere, therefore can anyone give me a good reason not to lock the thread, so we can all walk away as friends, 'agreeing to disagree', before that situation changes for the worse?
Also, I've had enough myself of this pissy thread, as it's causing me grief to moderate, which frankly I can't be arsed with, especially on such a beautiful day as today, where I've got umpteen far better and more important things I should be doing with my time instead, as I'm sure you do, too! :)
Marco.
I suppose you could close it, but it's a developing situation which is likely to continue developing for a very long time.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160704/c4db22c77cb4934b163c2d18859cdca2.jpg
And here I was just about to pitch in lol...
Just kidding. :lol:
I suppose you could close it, but it's a developing situation which is likely to continue developing for a very long time.
Indeed. I can sort of see Marco's point though; what are the chances of either the committed Brexiters or the committed Remainers having their minds changed by discussions on AoS? As such chances would appear to be zero, the alternative is an endless 'he said/she said' exchange which just ends up in insults, a bit like Question Time on the BBC.
Maybe a new thread could be opened if/when we know a bit more about what's happening; e.g. when there's a new PM in place.
Seriously though, Martin, is it acceptable for a moderator to be characterising everyone with a different view to them as people who voted to "keep on taking it up the ass"?
]
That was tongue in cheek. I thought that was obvious but maybe not. It wasn't really directed at anyone here, just a general comment. Compared to some other places the debate here has been reasonably light-hearted and friendly, so make of that what you will. I did make the point in an earlier thread that those likely to get hot under the collar debating politics are best not debating it at all.
That was tongue in cheek. I thought that was obvious but maybe not.
Seriously though I think it is those who voted to remain and keep taking it up the ass from the likes of Junkers who are now flailing around with no plan. You didn't expect to lose and now you have it is panic time. Call for another referendum, call everyone stupid or racist, and when all that fails go and sulk at the bottom of the garden.
Possibly one of least edifying things I've ever seen in my life.
It might have been more "obvious" that it was "tongue-in-cheek" had you not prefaced it with "seriously though..." and then ended it with "possibly one of the least edifying things I've ever seen in my life."
There has been a steep rise in racist incidents since the result. To point this out is not saying that every leave voter is racist. Whether we end up leaving the Union or not, the atmosphere has changed in this country, and not for the better.
Indeed. I can sort of see Marco's point though; what are the chances of either the committed Brexiters or the committed Remainers having their minds changed by discussions on AoS? As such chances would appear to be zero, the alternative is an endless 'he said/she said' exchange which just ends up in insults, a bit like Question Time on the BBC.
Maybe a new thread could be opened if/when we know a bit more about what's happening; e.g. when there's a new PM in place.
My sentiments entirely, Joe, and so feel free folks to do precisely that when the new PM is in place. However, I think that this particular thread has run its course now, so thanks to all who contributed :cool:
Marco.
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