View Full Version : Back in Black
Hi Andy, hows it going with the 2M Black now you have been running with it for a while?
Wakefield Turntables
21-09-2022, 18:50
Hi Jim,
I did write up my experience with it up against the faithful old steed the M55E. I'm now upto part two of evaluating the 2M Black, which is to try and learn it's "house sound", it's strengths, weaknesses, quirks, etc. The problem is I only get a couple of hours on Fridays to do this, so this Friday should start pt 2 when I can make a few more notes. I'm hoping to have a good session where I listen to quite a few genre's with a critical ear rather than just listening less critically as background music. Finally, I'd then like to pit the 2M up against the SC35C + JICO SAS/B + Aluminium head shell cartridge and see if the 2MB can fends it off. So I'm hoping to do a update to the REAL SOUND thread on Friday.
Excellent nice to hear your plan to evaluate it thoroughly!��
I think it’s interesting that you are using other cartridges to get a handle on what the 2M can or can’t do, this highlights it’s strengths and weaknesses. Always good to have benchmarks for a comparison as it shows more clearly aspects of new equipment that are more readily revealed in listening sessions. This is way better than simply trying to listen and compare from memory when you may have sold a piece of kit / equipment?
I am listening fresh tonight after a weeks break which is always good. I always run through some familiar tracks to get a good idea how the system is sounding. The stark live performance of the 2M stands out immediately listening tonight. I am sitting back and not wanting for anything in the system it sounds better than it should and is simply a stunning tool for listening to the black stuff.
That is why I have not changed my system much at all in the past 5 years. The 2M simply does a fabulous job and always delivers a superb performance across most genres.
Strange things cartridges? So much is required of them as they are the very starting point of our auditory journey and they shape everything that is to come after they generate that small electrical signal. This of course then travels through so many metres of cables and electronics which manipulate the signal one way or another until finally it reaches our ears.
They are a thing of wonder when you actually think what they do, transcribing a piece of plastic with encoded grooves to produce music and sound that we can actually believe is real. They can convey information and emotion at an infinite level of experience and make us happy, sad, joyful or frustrated.
To many, including myself, the cartridge is an anathema. It can be so difficult to actually physically set up in a tonearm and the variability of manipulation in so many dimensions can result in either a stellar performance that ticks or the boxes or something that just sounds OK. Like many folk on this forum I have set up cartridges and installed them many times and I would say I actually enjoy the experience even though the is always a small amount of trepidation when i actually sit down and listen to the cartridge once installed. This is especially true of a new cartridge with expectations that it will change slightly anyway as it runs in which brings me to the point of this post.
Although cartridge set up and alignment can be critical when you throw in the curve ball of running it in things can get tricky. Have I set the cartridge up correctly or do I need to wait 30,50 or 100 hours to judge? Many of us have been down this well trodden path and it can be frustrating especially with an unfamiliar cartridge where we do not quite know what to expect from its performance.
However I am very familiar with the 2M Black and I know exactly what it should sound like in my system. Or so I thought! I have been through about 4 stylus changes with my 2M Black over a period of about 7 years and generally I know what to expect from beginning to end of life. I am no longer phased or concerned about setting this cartridge up as I have done it so many times and i know exactly how to do this with my particular tonearm and alignment equipment I have at my disposal. I have observed the extreme range of performance this cartridge can achieve in my system and I know exactly how it should sound. However just recently I have become engaged in another experiment with a friend, more of which will be revealed soon.
During this project I have been listening even more attentively to the 2M black than usual and noticing certain aspects about it but there was one evening this week that prompted me to write this post. I sat down to my usually listening session which occurs between 7pm-10pm and at first i was not paying attention to what i was listening too but over the evening I was bemused at what I was hearing. As I have mentioned I know how this cartridge sounds in my system and can judge by the increasing levels of distortion and details in the music when it is coming to end of life. Now this particular stylus has done about 1000 hours. It has been kept scrupulously clean as have been my records. At this end of its working life I was expecting to hear distortion issues due to stylus wear but instead I heard the opposite!
This particular stylus was sounding better than is should and in fact better than I had ever heard it. The 3D performance, detail, tonal quality etc were exceptional, probably at there very best. I could not fault it and even made the observation to my partner Helen who also heard how exceptional it sounded. I was listening to very well know material but never the less it still sounded at its very best i had encountered in my system. How was this apparent fantastic performance still available from a stylus with 1000 hours on it. This got be thinking and this is my hypothesis. Bear in ming this is just my explanation of what I think has happened and may not be technically correct.
As a cartridge wares both the suspension and diamond tip change. This can be a very slow procedure but inevitably it can be heard over the lifespan of the cartridge. Finally distortion sets in and its knackered. What I think I heard the other night was the ultimate sweet spot for this stylus and suspension in that they had worn to a point where all the angles and subtle interplay with the record were achieving exactly the right amount of interaction to achieve a very high level of performance. But at 1000 hours!?
In a sentence the cartridge/stylus had worn in rather than worn out!
Now I know this maybe heretical thinking in the audiofool world and I am happy to have my theory shot down but this is what i have observed and this is my explanation.
I know this situation will not last forever as the inevitable forces of physics and stylus wear will plunge it into the abyss of distortion and doom and I will have to pay eye watering money to perpetuate the whole cycle once again.
Firebottle
05-10-2022, 11:36
I think you could well be right James. As we know everything in the chain matters, so any subtle changes in the mechanics can have an effect as can temperature, humidity and the usual suspects of conductor and connector material.
Depending on how well you look after your records (i.e. cleanliness, storage), how well you have set up your arm/cartridge and the cleanliness of the stylus itself, a good quality diamond (with an advanced stylus profile) should have a lifetime of around 2000 hours (or 130 days of use).
Assuming a playing time of 40 minutes per LP, that works out to 3,000 LPs.
Variables such as temperature and humidity will have an effect on the compliance of the cantilever support, but in turn those changes will have a negligable effect on stylus lifetime.
brian2957
05-10-2022, 13:53
Great post James. Interesting idea about condition/age of the cartridge being the main factor in an uptick in SQ.
As said earlier room temperature/conditions can play a part, especially with vinyl I think.
Lots of variables here, including our mood and how receptive our brain is to what we are hearing. I definitely identify with this hypothesis being another explanation. Doesn't matter really does it? Just sit back and enjoy the music mate :)
Depending on how well you look after your records (i.e. cleanliness, storage), how well you have set up your arm/cartridge and the cleanliness of the stylus itself, a good quality diamond (with an advanced stylus profile) should have a lifetime of around 2000 hours (or 130 days of use).
Assuming a playing time of 40 minutes per LP, that works out to 3,000 LPs.
Variables such as temperature and humidity will have an effect on the compliance of the cantilever support, but in turn those changes will have a negligable effect on stylus lifetime.
2000 Hours - great, that means I am only half way through the life of this stylus and maybe I have hit the sweet spot but its all down hill from here!
Great post James. Interesting idea about condition/age of the cartridge being the main factor in an uptick in SQ.
As said earlier room temperature/conditions can play a part, especially with vinyl I think.
Lots of variables here, including our mood and how receptive our brain is to what we are hearing. I definitely identify with this hypothesis being another explanation. Doesn't matter really does it? Just sit back and enjoy the music mate :)
Thanks Brian, I should like you say take into consideration all the other aspects you have mentioned but the night I heard it performing at its best was not noteworthy for anything special, just an average humidity and temp?
brian2957
05-10-2022, 15:21
Thanks Brian, I should like you say take into consideration all the other aspects you have mentioned but the night I heard it performing at its best was not noteworthy for anything special, just an average humidity and temp?
Average heid too? :D
2000 Hours - great, that means I am only half way through the life of this stylus and maybe I have hit the sweet spot but its all down hill from here!
I wouldn't depend on it. Around 2,000 hours is the upper estimate. Ortofon suggest a figure of 1,000 hours as typical; but that is to be on the safe side.
Just keep an 'ear' on things, clean your records before and after play, as well as lightly cleaning the stylus with a squirrel hair brush after each play. I use a dry vibrating stylus cleaner once a week for about 10 seconds as part of a regular maintenance routine.
I wouldn't depend on it. Around 2,000 hours is the upper estimate. Ortofon suggest a figure of 1,000 hours as typical; but that is to be on the safe side.
Just keep an 'ear' on things, clean your records before and after play, as well as lightly cleaning the stylus with a squirrel hair brush after each play. I use a dry vibrating stylus cleaner once a week for about 10 seconds as part of a regular maintenance routine.
Barry, can I ask what your "dry vibrating stylus cleaner" is as I have never heard of one before you mentioned it?
Barry, can I ask what your "dry vibrating stylus cleaner" is as I have never heard of one before you mentioned it?
I was probably being a bit too laconic in my description. The device I use is a Goldring Electronic Stylus Cleaner:
https://www.picclickimg.com/-H8AAOSwsfpf0y8f/Goldring-Electronic-Stylus-Cleaner-VGC.jpg
It is a battery-operated device which has a vibrating carbon-fibre pad on which the stylus to be cleaned is placed. The pad vibrates at about 500Hz (judging by the quiet 'whine' it makes in operation).
I used the term "dry" because whilst it is often recommended to use one drop of IPA on the vibrating pad, if the stylus is glued to the cantilever, the action of the solvent could damage the glued bond. (If the stylus is fitted to the cantilever with a cup, whose edges are swaged over, then use of a solvent will be OK. Check to see how the stylus is attached for your cartridge).
I'm not sure if the Goldring model is still available. Audio Technica also made one as well, which may still be available: https://revolutions33.co.uk/audio-technica-electronic-stylus-cleaner-at637/
Another device is the Audiozomba sonic stylus cleaner:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/h-UAAOSwWz5iA755/s-l1600.jpg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254993505563?epid=6050668700&hash=item3b5ecc1d1b:g:h-UAAOSwWz5iA755&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAwMm80ZK7pZBA1M048LKBWYMpnsQx3 8UsWmSrtfrYF5AbZNZpRpanUNuPff5CmQtMMP10vkNq%2F9BM9 jIWrxHm63Hvs0s%2Fl1DZCSgVawdYgDhnWvthK1o%2Bbn4yRZd w7pFDvTEnyd6apBbD0IiAbCczJO1wEWNm75WKBA1re3XoOv2X0 TrEtarOuecFXLpU%2BVRbRGAEcKKgVvAg0oXG819jg2NMjTZEF tlFYJfKdVOWhAFrHokQ6IQGPTTwQwmors6cCg%3D%3D%7Ctkp% 3ABk9SR5rMos71YA
which ostensibly looks, and operates, in a similar fashion to the other devices.
Wakefield Turntables
06-10-2022, 18:08
Great post Jim, I've seen a similar phenomen with my Ortofon Cadenza Black and my Ortofon Silver Mesiter Mk I SPU where you seem to get a "golden age" where the cartridge just seems to excel in every way shape and form, but, be warned, this only lasts for a while and then things go down hill and a new cart/retip is needed. I also own a Royal N & Silver Meister Mk 2 SPU and I've not seen this yet. Have you noticed how all these carts are ORTOFON? I wonder if this is just a phenomen to them?
All cartridges take a while to 'run in' to achieve optimum performance - this is due to the breaking in of the compliant rubber suspension (though, no doubt, some might suggest it is also due to the 'burning in' of the coil windings). A typical figure is anywhere between 20 to 100 hours, so 1,000 hours seems to be an inordinately long time.
Andrew's suggestion that it might be something more intangible is a more likely explanation - an experience I have found to be true with most of my cartridges (regardless of electrodynamic configuration or stylus profile), or even with my system as a whole. Sometimes when the 'planets align', everything just gels together to give a highly enjoyable musical experience.
Enjoy it whilst you can - it's a capricious phenomenon.
Pigmy Pony
07-10-2022, 05:25
Had a look at the Audiozomba stylus cleaner listing Barry linked to, and I must say she does look impressive. I might even provide tea and biscuits :)
https://jarilo.co.uk/ebaystores21/audiozomba/listing/images/toppromo_05.jpg
I just need to check whether Ortofon's 2M Black stylus is glued.
New 2M black stylus arrived today in new funky plastic container. This is quite a bit better than the old box it came in which just had the stylus loose. Installed tonight after 2 year run with last stylus and about 1200 hours.
New cartridge immediately sounds cleaner and more controlled. Quieter background and better tonal quality than the worn stylus. Notes seem to stop and start just that bit cleaner. Not that the old stylus was sounding poor but by comparison I can hear the deterioration. I keep my stylus and records ultra clean so 1200 hours was easily achievable but before it deteriorated into distortion and possible record ware I thought it was best to change.
Regarding running in, the only area I can hear that may benefit is the bass which is a tad light at the moment but only been running it for a couple of hours. Other than that it sounds wonderful. maybe a touch more 3D and lovely air and atmosphere now easily discernible in the recordings.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52613198664_ea41f3fc2a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oafoWU)96126B4E-E139-400D-B3FB-FCAF301E3F38 (https://flic.kr/p/2oafoWU) by Ja (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52613198714_92b93f86a3.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oafoXL)D4D2E94E-EF31-441F-A226-616E4A479C2C (https://flic.kr/p/2oafoXL) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Firebottle
07-01-2023, 20:27
Excellent Jimbo, of course that is the beauty of MM carts, being able to change the stylus.
I put my Lyra cart on the subs bench a while back as the hours are unknown.
I have lent it out and the recipient thinks it may be past its prime with a slightly rolled off top end.
Excellent Jimbo, of course that is the beauty of MM carts, being able to change the stylus.
I put my Lyra cart on the subs bench a while back as the hours are unknown.
I have lent it out and the recipient thinks it may be past its prime with a slightly rolled off top end.
Did you see my other post tonight with the clicker counter device I bought from Amazon. Nice nifty way to count those hours of vinyl pleasure.
I use an app on my phone to count the exact run time. Open the app and a tap on the cartridge you've listed and away it goes. Hit stop or pause when changing sides, simple and accurate. Best of all, it's free [emoji6]
It's called Swipetimes, available on Google Play for android devices.
https://www.swipetimes.com/en/
The Screenshot shows my current lineup and usage.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230107/c176d3e61895dc10763e33f9fa733c86.jpg
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2023, 23:12
Excellent Jimbo, of course that is the beauty of MM carts, being able to change the stylus.
I put my Lyra cart on the subs bench a while back as the hours are unknown.
I have lent it out and the recipient thinks it may be past its prime with a slightly rolled off top end.
It is handy I suppose, though the stylus alone isn't massively cheaper than the whole 2M Black cart (approx £370 vs £500). Mine needs changing in the coming weeks, and there are no 2MB bargains to be had. Might have to go CD-only until British Gas stop clobbering me.
Hoping this is where James says "God no, I paid nowhere near that much, try these people" :)
brian2957
07-01-2023, 23:22
Good post mate. New stylus happy listener ;)
It is handy I suppose, though the stylus alone isn't massively cheaper than the whole 2M Black cart (approx £370 vs £500). Mine needs changing in the coming weeks, and there are no 2MB bargains to be had. Might have to go CD-only until British Gas stop clobbering me.
Hoping this is where James says "God no, I paid nowhere near that much, try these people" :)
I wish I could point you somewhere cheap but mine did cost £370. But do try and haggle because I got the vendor down from 399 to £370 very easily. No harm in making an offer?
I use an app on my phone to count the exact run time. Open the app and a tap on the cartridge you've listed and away it goes. Hit stop or pause when changing sides, simple and accurate. Best of all, it's free [emoji6]
It's called Swipetimes, available on Google Play for android devices.
https://www.swipetimes.com/en/
The Screenshot shows my current lineup and usage.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230107/c176d3e61895dc10763e33f9fa733c86.jpg
That looks a great little app Mike, thanks.
Good post mate. New stylus happy listener ;)
Your going to hear a lot more mate:)
It is handy I suppose, though the stylus alone isn't massively cheaper than the whole 2M Black cart (approx £370 vs £500). Mine needs changing in the coming weeks, and there are no 2MB bargains to be had. Might have to go CD-only until British Gas stop clobbering me.
Hoping this is where James says "God no, I paid nowhere near that much, try these people" :)
Steve, can you remember how long your last 2M Black took to run in?
Dialled in VTA tonight and VTF of 1.6g and everything has snapped into focus with great balance across tonal range. Sounded tad bright until I fiddled with VTA. I had adjusted for last 2M Black to take into consideration wear on suspension and therefore new stylus did need a re adjustment. Just a pointer for anyone messing with new 2M black stylus, your VTA will be out when you fit a new one.
One aspect that puzzles me greatly is this is my 4th stylus but it is way quieter in the groove than previous new 2M Black stylus and therefore the background is even darker. Music just floats out of an inky blackness?
brian2957
09-01-2023, 22:30
That's a great result James. Give yourself a pat on the back for implementing an educated guess on how to get the new stylus singing. You're becoming a bit of a 2m Black expert mate :)
Pigmy Pony
10-01-2023, 10:49
Steve, can you remember how long your last 2M Black took to run in?
Sorry I can't, it sounded great to my ears from day one. But then my ears are made of cloth.
It'll be interesting to hear how different a new one will sound when I get to it. I've had this one a few years now, but don't get to play my records all that much due to domestic harmony considerations, also I play CDs much of that time. Probably got about 7-800 hours on it.
I had briefly considered downgrading to a 2M Bronze to save a bit of money, but I just know I would come to regret that kind of cheapskateness. If something ain't broke...
Sorry I can't, it sounded great to my ears from day one. But then my ears are made of cloth.
It'll be interesting to hear how different a new one will sound when I get to it. I've had this one a few years now, but don't get to play my records all that much due to domestic harmony considerations, also I play CDs much of that time. Probably got about 7-800 hours on it.
I had briefly considered downgrading to a 2M Bronze to save a bit of money, but I just know I would come to regret that kind of cheapskateness. If something ain't broke...
I could not go back to anything less but have also considered a bronze.
After fettling last night the new stylus has started to sing. I am very impressed and even though they should all sound the same I have a feeling this replacement is the best I have had. I may post up some more pondering later when I get my head round the reasons why?:scratch:
Pigmy Pony
10-01-2023, 14:35
I could not go back to anything less but have also considered a bronze.
After fettling last night the new stylus has started to sing. I am very impressed and even though they should all sound the same I have a feeling this replacement is the best I have had. I may post up some more pondering later when I get my head round the reasons why?:scratch:
I suppose it is possible that even with a big company like Ortofon that there may be tiny variations in the build quality, though I'm more inclined to think that your tweaking of the set up has brought it to its sweet spot or at least closer. Whatever, if it sounds better to you, that's a result :)
There is a possibility Ortofon may have tweaked the stylus materials themselves? I can only say that listening last night confirmed it was certainly better than any previous stylus I have had before. I was just speaking to a friend and he suggested as it was significantly quieter in the groove the noise floor may have dropped allowing for the very black background but also greater detail in the recording to come through. All conjecture of course.
Like you said it maybe just my tweaking in setting it up that made the difference, more luck than judgement I am sure.:lol:
Another evening with the new stylus and heard exactly the same performance as the night before. Uncannily quiet in the groove and extremely low noise floor therefore a very black background. This is not what I have experienced with any of my previous 2M blacks so something has changed. The confirms that the listening sessions I have had previously were not a one off!
The biggest benefit of such a quiet background and no groove noise is the huge amount of information now conveyed in the recording, some of which I was unaware of before, even on very familiar recordings.
All I would say is if you do purchase a new stylus or even a complete 2M black cartridge currently you will certainly not be disappointed. In the past it was criticised for digging out lots of surface noice and clicks and pops in the groove. Not any longer. This stylus I have is so quiet you would think you are playing super pressed brand new records, its that good.
brian2957
11-01-2023, 11:43
Great result James. Ortofon will be increasing the price of the 2m Black soon :eyebrows:
I have often considered going down the MC cartridge route but then considered the price. With my listening habits I am getting about 2 years use out of the 2M Black at a cost of £175 per year which is great value. A good MC would cost about £1000-£1500 per year.
And then there is always the nightmare of the heavy hand that has had too many drinks!:eek::doh::lol:
Having gone down the MC route, I don’t regret it, but it is not my every day cartridge. I use a good MM for that, as the cost would be prohibitive if I listened to as much vinyl as you. There is also a risk that my young daughter, or one of her friends, get a little too inquisitive, so the MC lives safely in it’s box and comes out on special occasions, when I am alone in the house and can relax without background noise.
It is rather good, but I do think that the difference is a bit over emphasised. A good MM will get you 90% of the performance for about 25% of the cost, but some MM styli are now selling for crazy money.
I bought my 2MB for €400, and now that is what the stylus costs? I’ll stick with my “vintage” MMs for now…
I probably have too many, but when I fancy a change, I have a choice.
I have often considered going down the MC cartridge route but then considered the price. With my listening habits I am getting about 2 years use out of the 2M Black at a cost of £175 per year which is great value. A good MC would cost about £1000-£1500 per year.
And then there is always the nightmare of the heavy hand that has had too many drinks!:eek::doh::lol:
I have always thought MC was too expensive and over-hyped and could never really hear anything extra happening compared to a good MM or MI. Mind you like Steve I have never heard a cartridge or stylus 'run in' either, new ones always sounded great from the off. Cloth ears? Maybe but seems to me they are a feature not a bug :)
Buy a 2 grand MC and spend the first hundred hours waiting for it to 'come on song'? Assume tip life of 1000 hours - which is optimistic - and that's cost you two hundred quid. Then the last couple of hundred it sounds sub-optimal as it's on its way out. No thanks.
Two grand? Cheapskate - do the job properly and spend over 10 grand on a stone-bodied Koetsu! :D
£10k on a cartridge? :lol:
Not in my house. I doubt my system cost that much, and I think it would be overkill on an upgraded DJ deck.
walpurgis
14-01-2023, 11:00
I had my Technics EPC-305 MC for twenty years and didn't log the hours of use, the diamond tip still looked like new under a microscope.
(it also sounded great :))
£10k on a cartridge? :lol:
Not in my house. I doubt my system cost that much, and I think it would be overkill on an upgraded DJ deck.
Yes, it's true:
https://www.hificorner.co.uk/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/0e39ae5d7952eec40950ca308b28d74f/k/o/koetsu-bloodstone-platinum-diamond-cantilever.jpg
Yours for a mere £12,380!
https://www.hificorner.co.uk/koetsu-diamond-cantilever.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1ZSzq_TG_AIVCMbt Ch0_8QLGEAQYBSABEgJaAPD_BwE#fo_c=1460&fo_k=e0cbfba9181a834330d2345b7948ed1e&fo_s=gplauk
I have always thought MC was too expensive and over-hyped and could never really hear anything extra happening compared to a good MM or MI. Mind you like Steve I have never heard a cartridge or stylus 'run in' either, new ones always sounded great from the off. Cloth ears? Maybe but seems to me they are a feature not a bug :)
Buy a 2 grand MC and spend the first hundred hours waiting for it to 'come on song'? Assume tip life of 1000 hours - which is optimistic - and that's cost you two hundred quid. Then the last couple of hundred it sounds sub-optimal as it's on its way out. No thanks.
Great MC synopsis Martin.:lol:
I had my Technics EPC-305 MC for twenty years and didn't log the hours of use, the diamond tip still looked like new under a microscope.
(it also sounded great :))
I have a friend who has just replaced his MC after 10 years of use but he was a light user so your 20 years looks great value for money. I suppose for occasional use an MC would be an option but then there would be all the faff and worry about setting it up etc.
Yes, it's true:
https://www.hificorner.co.uk/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/0e39ae5d7952eec40950ca308b28d74f/k/o/koetsu-bloodstone-platinum-diamond-cantilever.jpg
Yours for a mere £12,380!
https://www.hificorner.co.uk/koetsu-diamond-cantilever.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1ZSzq_TG_AIVCMbt Ch0_8QLGEAQYBSABEgJaAPD_BwE#fo_c=1460&fo_k=e0cbfba9181a834330d2345b7948ed1e&fo_s=gplauk
So £6000 a year with my usage.
Yes, it's true:
https://www.hificorner.co.uk/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/0e39ae5d7952eec40950ca308b28d74f/k/o/koetsu-bloodstone-platinum-diamond-cantilever.jpg
Yours for a mere £12,380!
https://www.hificorner.co.uk/koetsu-diamond-cantilever.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1ZSzq_TG_AIVCMbt Ch0_8QLGEAQYBSABEgJaAPD_BwE#fo_c=1460&fo_k=e0cbfba9181a834330d2345b7948ed1e&fo_s=gplauk
I am not doubting the price, just that it would never happen here.
Buy a cartridge that lasts 2 years, or get the wife a new(er) car or some family holidays?
It may be better than my XX2, but £10k+ is outside my comfort zone.
I had my Technics EPC-305 MC for twenty years and didn't log the hours of use, the diamond tip still looked like new under a microscope.
(it also sounded great :))
This is the trouble, hardly anyone logs their hours so they always over-estimate the life of the tip. I mean it's a diamond - if you don't use it then it will still be mint when the universe ends.
This is the trouble, hardly anyone logs their hours so they always over-estimate the life of the tip. I mean it's a diamond - if you don't use it then it will still be mint when the universe ends.
This time I am logging the sucker!:lol:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52613414770_586452a8cc_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oagvbS)571E045B-6734-419C-A92E-994CC88025C3 (https://flic.kr/p/2oagvbS) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
This time I am logging the sucker!:lol:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52613414770_586452a8cc_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oagvbS)571E045B-6734-419C-A92E-994CC88025C3 (https://flic.kr/p/2oagvbS) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Excellent, will be really interesting to see how long it lasts. One click per side?
I am sat here listening to my XX2, and there is no doubt it is fantastic. If at any point I started to think that one side of a record was costing me €6 (£12k cartridge, 1000 hour life) I would probably go 100% digital!
I am sat here listening to my XX2, and there is no doubt it is fantastic. If at any point I started to think that one side of a record was costing me €6 (£12k cartridge, 1000 hour life) I would probably go 100% digital!
:lol:
walpurgis
14-01-2023, 11:52
I suppose for occasional use an MC would be an option but then there would be all the faff and worry about setting it up etc.
Can't say I ever had bother setting up my MCs, despite the fancy tips. Deccas can be tricky to get right sometimes though.
Can't say I ever had bother setting up my MCs, despite the fancy tips. Deccas can be tricky to get right sometimes though.
Me neither. I also agree concerning Decca cartridges - but then Deccas are a law unto themselves: get it right and it will trounce most cartridges; get it wrong, or have a poor sample (the quality control for Deccas is appalling) and it will be a nightmare.
ive only heard one decca and it was obviously not right as it sounded pretty crap. didnt like to say anything as i didnt know the guy and he thought it was great
And to prove the point, I have fitted my modified AT95SA. It is basically an AT95 in a DL103 metal body, with the cavities filled with wax. I had to cut down the stylus assembly to fit, but it fits snuggly. Why did I do it? Because I could… I had a spare metal cap to modify the 103, and an old AT95 lying around. Wearing this out is not a cost problem, as the new styli are relatively cheap.
Jimbo has heard this in his system.
I am quite happy with the sound. The soundstage is not as wide as the XX2, but I am perfectly happy listening to it.
And to prove the point, I have fitted my modified AT95SA. It is basically an AT95 in a DL103 metal body, with the cavities filled with wax. I had to cut down the stylus assembly to fit, but it fits snuggly. Why did I do it? Because I could… I had a spare metal cap to modify the 103, and an old AT95 lying around. Wearing this out is not a cost problem, as the new styli are relatively cheap.
Jimbo has heard this in his system.
I am quite happy with the sound. The soundstage is not as wide as the XX2, but I am perfectly happy listening to it.
Yes thanks for the loan Kevin, it was a nice sounding cartridge.
This is a really dull post tonight. I am up to 16 hours playback with new 2M Black stylus. Ortofon recommend 20 hours on their website so still not up to optimum SQ yet!:rolleyes: It is however sounding absolutely fantastic.
I used to tell the folk at work when I had cleaned my spice cupboard and the current country of origin of my blueberries in the morning which was probably even duller but hey ho!:)
brian2957
16-01-2023, 22:21
Mmmm...OCD R US. I hope you didn't tell 'em you were an audiophile into the bargain :lol:
Lawrence001
16-01-2023, 23:32
How the hours must roll by at work [emoji23]
Reached 20 hours on the new 2M Black stylus. Ortofon recommend 20 hours to run in and I would say they are absolutely spot on. One aspect I did not mention which was a negative when I first installed the 2M was the slight lack of Bass. Last night this came back strong and exactly how I remembered it from previous stylus.
Along with the superlative sound I am getting from this new stylus and still deathly quiet in the groove I am getting a great new perspective on recordings with the room acoustic materials. The insight into the recordings is remarkable and intriguing.
Nearly 50 hours on the 2M Black and everything has become effortless analog across the whole frequency range. The top end has lost a tiny bit of edge and the midrange has filled out significantly which benefits vocals in particular. I would also say there is a tiny bit more transparency to the sound. Although Ortofon suggest 20 hours for break in I would say 40-50 is nearer its optimum performance.
No change in the super quiet groove noise . Compared to my previous 2M black Stylus I think this has a more liquid sound, beautiful tone quality across the spectrum. I am more than impressed which says something when you have been using a cartridge almost exclusively for the past 7 years. Maybe I got lucky and there is great synergy with my system, I don't know but it certainly makes spinning vinyl addictive and shows a clean pair of heals to that alternative music number crunching technology!:)
brian2957
17-02-2023, 21:07
Glad the cartridge is coming on song for you James. I'm currently having great fun with the 2M Black you have kindly loaned me. It sounds absolutely fantastic with my Ifi Zen phono stage :)
Glad the cartridge is coming on song for you James. I'm currently having great fun with the 2M Black you have kindly loaned me. It sounds absolutely fantastic with my Ifi Zen phono stage :)
I expect that's a killer combination!
brian2957
17-02-2023, 21:23
Yes mate, this combo sounds excellent IMO.
Wakefield Turntables
17-02-2023, 21:39
Yes I was converted to the virtues of the 2MB. Certainly the best ever MM I'd ever heard.
So now passed the 50 hour mark and to be honest the 2M is now sounding very very similar to my previous cartridge apart from the super quiet groove noise. I have been messing around a little with the VTA as I was trying to compensate for suspension run in. Not surprisingly after going back and forth I have ended up back where I finished with my last stylus.
So I would say Ortofon are manufacturing these stylus within a very close tolerance as it is now sounding so close to my previous stylus. There is definitely some tweaking to do with the 2M to get it to sound right and I was a bit flippant with this as I have set so many up over the last few years. However VTA is the most critical setting as this really does seem to affect the tonal quality and right level of top end to bass. I always run mine at 1.6g VTF as I have found this gives the best sound with my tonearm and table.
I have been particularly attentive with this stylus and I know it may bore some folk with me wittering on but it may be useful for folk who are setting up a 2M black for the first time. All I would say is persevere and keeping changing VTA by ear until you get that nice balance of detail and tone and you will be rewarded with a taste of high end vinyl performance at a fair price.
brian2957
24-02-2023, 19:54
Aye I know what you mean mate. I'm still tinkering :)
Aye I know what you mean mate. I'm still tinkering :)
The problem with the 2M black is that it is sensitive to set up but this can be used to your advantage as I have found you can tweak it to get the sound you particularly like where as many other cartridges have been less amenable to tweaking?
Confessions of an audio numpty.:rolleyes:
I noticed the other evening my 2M black cartridge had started to sound a bit odd and then it began to sound really bad with a weird knocking /thumping noise coming through the speakers. On investigation I noticed the cartridge was riding very low indeed with the stylus barely visible and the back end hitting the record surface.
At first I thought the suspension had collapsed so I decided to dial in some more VTA. When I came to turn the adjusted on the VPI turntable It became quickly apparent I had reached the extreme end of the downward VTA adjustment with the arm pillar as low as it would go!:doh:
What I had done in my eagerness to try and sort the VTA was to turn the VTA adjuster the wrong way, I had also inadvertently changed the tracking force which was way out by 0.3g!
That will serve me right for continuously messing and tweaking!:eek:
brian2957
09-03-2023, 19:41
:rolleyes::ner::doh::lol:
What can I say :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
10-03-2023, 08:42
The 2MB is indeed a very fine cart, but, it's like crack cocaine if you like to tweek your deck! I think they should all come with a health/stress warning with regards to their set-up. :eek:. I agree with you that you can dial in the sound you like but it's at the loss of many days/nights of stress, better to find a sound that you really like and then make exact notes/photo's of how the cart is setup and then you'll be able to accurately replicate the settings on your next 2MB. You make an interesting observation in an earlier post with respects to extending the life of the cart by altering it's setup, I don't think I've owned another cart where this is possible.
Normal service has resumed with 2M Black after a moment of madness. I have pondered my brain storm and I think what happened was I was turning VTA wrong way thinking I was raising rather than lowering the back of the cartridge. As I say nothing is marked on my VTA adjustment ring so everything is by site. Clockwise for VTA up and anti for down. Ah well lesson learned - STOP FIDDLING!:lol:
Andy just to answer your last point - extending stylus life. `Primarily I make very small adjustments due to suspension sag over life of cartridge and hope this keeps the stylus at its correct angle in the groove. I presume if diamond tip gradually wears irregularly you can loose the exact contact area and so wear becomes audible.
This is just my theory and I may be talking Bollox but I have done this for all my 2M stylus at around 1000 hour mark and I have heard a difference.
Wakefield Turntables
14-03-2023, 20:08
Andy just to answer your last point - extending stylus life. `Primarily I make very small adjustments due to suspension sag over life of cartridge and hope this keeps the stylus at its correct angle in the groove. I presume if diamond tip gradually wears irregularly you can loose the exact contact area and so wear becomes audible.
This is just my theory and I may be talking Bollox but I have done this for all my 2M stylus at around 1000 hour mark and I have heard a difference.
I don't think this is bollox at all, I think it's a very valid and logical thing to try and do. I'll certainly be doing this with my Cadenza black when the time comes, and maybe even my Silver Meister II SPU.
I had noticed over the last week a change in the sound of my 2M black cartridge which was hard to put my finger on but something did not sound right. I investigated and ran through all the usual VTF , VTA and azimuth , also checked tonearm pillar screws and then had a good look at my cartridge whilst playing a record and voila!
The cantilever had now almost disappeared into the body of the cartridge and the cartridge body was a hair away from touching the record surface. So it appears something is up with the suspension. I was soon down to the dealer from where I purchased the cartridge and handed it over with a letter stating what I had observed. The chap was very decent and said he would speak to his Ortofon rep who works for the main dealer importer for Ortofon in the UK.
I am now waiting to hear what the verdict is to be!?
Wakefield Turntables
29-03-2023, 18:24
Good luck with the outcome! Looks like it's the Lenco for a while?
That is most odd.
It will be interesting to see what Ortofon say.
Good luck with the outcome! Looks like it's the Lenco for a while?
I have a two back up stylus for the cartridge so I will not be without.:)
Wakefield Turntables
30-03-2023, 19:21
I have a two back up stylus for the cartridge so I will not be without.:)
I would have expected nothing less! :lol:
I would have expected nothing less! :lol:
:)
So four weeks later I am happy to report 2M Black stylus has been replaced FOC by the dealer for a new one. I asked him why it took so long and he mentioned that the importer was super busy which I can understand especially as they are the main distributor for Ortofon. I was someway down the line to be dealt with.
Tonight I start the whole process of running a new stylus in again!:doh:
hifi_dave
05-05-2023, 15:38
So busy they couldn't put a stylus in a jiffy bag ?
So busy they couldn't put a stylus in a jiffy bag ?
To be fair I think they had to check it first. That takes another 5 mins!
Pigmy Pony
05-05-2023, 19:24
To be fair I think they had to check it first. That takes another 5 mins!
Yesterday I bought a portion of chips. The whole transaction, including taking my money, giving me change, customising to my requirements (salt & vinegar), wrapping it up and providing free delivery across the counter was done in less than a minute. And it was a lot of chips.
Yesterday I bought a portion of chips. The whole transaction, including taking my money, giving me change, customising to my requirements (salt & vinegar), wrapping it up and providing free delivery across the counter was done in less than a minute. And it was a lot of chips.
That's what I had tonight. Delicious!
Wakefield Turntables
05-05-2023, 19:41
Tonight I start the whole process of running a new stylus in again!:doh:
Well if you don't want the hassle I can always find time to listen to a 2MB !!!!! :ner:
Extraordinary sound from the new 2M stylus. Just gobsmacked. Going from my standby 1000+ hour stylus to this new one has been a revelation. On every parameter you can measure this new stylus sounds so much better. The cantilever /stylus profile looks correct from the side view tracking so I am very very happy.
I know I have said it many times but the 2M Black is a fabulous sounding cartridge and has perfect synergy with my phono stage/ preamp and the rest of my system and is the main reason I have never felt the need to move onto anything better. It satisfies my listening experience 100% which is a great place to be.
Now reached 250 hours on the new 2M stylus and it sounds wonderful. Tonight especially there is a holographic transparency to the sound. The decay in some of the notes and instruments in the soundstage is as good as I have ever heard. Apparently this is one key area that is often lacking in digital where information in the decay of notes/ sound can be truncated early.
Analogue has greater tendency to produce this effect more easily and tonight I am getting very long transient decay. I am sure it can be measured in milliseconds or even seconds on some parts of the recording. The other aspect I have noticed to night is the super depth of the soundstage.
Maybe all the stars are aligned tonight and my system is simply gelling extremely well - temperature and humidity at an optimum? Funny isn't it how your system can sound so great some night and then a bit meh on others?:)
I notice the same thing, more so since I got my system where I want it. Which seems counter-intuitive.
I think we are the variable, our psychological condition varies dependant on a hundred factors.
More likely that temp and humidity affects us rather than the speakers or electronics?
I think electronics are all affected by temperature and are likely to operate better at certain temperatures than others?
Speakers are also mainly mechanical devices and are manufactured from materials that must be subject to change in temp and humidity. All my main speakers drive units are made from Kraft paper and obviously all have rubber suspension so I think there are plenty of clues there as to why sound can be affected by temp.
I also run a lot of valves when I fire up the system and who knows what temperature they like and operate at optimally?
I think electronics are all affected by temperature and are likely to operate better at certain temperatures than others?
Speakers are also mainly mechanical devices and are manufactured from materials that must be subject to change in temp and humidity. All my main speakers drive units are made from Kraft paper and obviously all have rubber suspension so I think there are plenty of clues there as to why sound can be affected by temp.
I also run a lot of valves when I fire up the system and who knows what temperature they like and operate at optimally?
I was reading about this not that long ago, I should have saved the link - but I didn't. In short, temp and humidity would need to be extreme before it would affect the sound of a speaker. Electronics, even valves, it won't make any difference, although extreme temperature will eventually kill components.
But for people it's different, we are sensitive to environmental conditions and they do change our mental state and, consequently, our perceptions. As does what we had for lunch!
I was reading about this not that long ago, I should have saved the link - but I didn't. In short, temp and humidity would need to be extreme before it would affect the sound of a speaker. Electronics, even valves, it won't make any difference, although extreme temperature will eventually kill components.
But for people it's different, we are sensitive to environmental conditions and they do change our mental state and, consequently, our perceptions. As does what we had for lunch!
Ah yes that must be it. I had a nice spaghetti bolognaise for lunch and the room temperature was just right. All contribute to perfect psychological and physiological state of being!:)
AJSki2fly
24-07-2024, 13:40
I was reading about this not that long ago, I should have saved the link - but I didn't. In short, temp and humidity would need to be extreme before it would affect the sound of a speaker. Electronics, even valves, it won't make any difference, although extreme temperature will eventually kill components.
But for people it's different, we are sensitive to environmental conditions and they do change our mental state and, consequently, our perceptions. As does what we had for lunch!
I find a good fart helps, especially if in tune.
Clocked up 320 hours on the 2M Black and it is sounding liquid smooth and hyper detailed. Pin point imaging and magnificent soundstage. Tonal colouration/saturation is remarkable and probably only something vinyl can achieve to this level.
* respectful nod of head *
* respectful nod of head *
Cheers Gary, this is a very old post but still relevant I feel today, especially as Ortofon still have not replaced or bettered the 2M black as the top MM in their line up apart from the LBV 2M?
Wakefield Turntables
20-12-2024, 13:09
Cheers Gary, this is a very old post but still relevant I feel today, especially as Ortofon still have not replaced or bettered the 2M black as the top MM in their line up apart from the LBV 2M?
Bit of a left-field suggestion. You could, maybe, better the LVB 2M yourself. It's more than possible to send a knackered 2M LVB to someone like Needlestein in the states and have your choice of custom cantilever and diamond profile for less than it would cost to buy a new 2M LVB. Maybe a project for 2025?
Bit of a left-field suggestion. You could, maybe, better the LVB 2M yourself. It's more than possible to send a knackered 2M LVB to someone like Needlestein in the states and have your choice of custom cantilever and diamond profile for less than it would cost to buy a new 2M LVB. Maybe a project for 2025?
Good idea Andy. Do you know if Needlestein can improve a standard 2M black?
Wakefield Turntables
20-12-2024, 14:19
Not sure mate, you can find him over on Lenco Heaven :eyebrows:, he's very responsive and answers all questions truthfully and honestly.
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