View Full Version : Back in Black
It's good to be back!
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsdaaufz0a.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsdaaufz0a.jpeg.html)
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsleqgjhob.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsleqgjhob.jpeg.html)
I am still trying to make my mind up between the Hana SL and AT33PTG/II.
They are both good, but a little different. I still need to get a few more hours on the Hana to make sure it's fully run in, and you go and post this.... :rolleyes:
:lol:
RobbieGong
13-05-2016, 20:10
It's good to be back!
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsdaaufz0a.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsdaaufz0a.jpeg.html)
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsleqgjhob.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsleqgjhob.jpeg.html)
Nice one Jimbo, The Blacks a class act. Magical and addictive thing, it's the accuracy I love, no two albums sound the same and as I always say, why would they :)
I am still trying to make my mind up between the Hana SL and AT33PTG/II.
They are both good, but a little different. I still need to get a few more hours on the Hana to make sure it's fully run in, and you go and post this.... :rolleyes:
:lol:
I find it difficult to remember sound precisely so I popped the 2M back on as a reference. This time I have spent ages with the set up and it sounds absolutely superb. This cartridge certainly does the biz and I was surprised going back to it after 6 months experimenting with other cartridges just how great it is!:)
RobbieGong
13-05-2016, 20:51
I find it difficult to remember sound precisely so I popped the 2M back on as a reference. This time I have spent ages with the set up and it sounds absolutely superb. This cartridge certainly does the biz and I was surprised going back to it after 6 months experimenting with other cartridges just how great it is!:)
:) Exactly. It just has a way of laying out whats in those grooves and the rightness of vocals, instruments and tangible horns just add to the making music sound great whilst not glossing over things.
In fact whilst the Quintet Black does the same stuf in pretty much the same way, I'd say the difference is that it offers up a gnats more refinement and retrieval of another layer of filigree detail, BUT the 2MB has more bass weight which some might ultimately prefer over the QB - Both bloody class performers at not daft money in my opinion though :)
:) Exactly. It just has a way of laying out whats in those grooves and the rightness of vocals, instruments and tangible horns just add to the making music sound great whilst not glossing over things.
In fact whilst the Quintet Black does the same stuf in pretty much the same way, I'd say the difference is that it offers up a gnats more refinement and retrieval of another layer of filigree detail, BUT the 2MB has more bass weight which some might ultimately prefer over the QB - Both bloody class performers at not daft money in my opinion though :)
Yes it is a very classy performer and does so much right. I thought my 301 was detailed but the 2M pulls out even more and has a touch more weight. I really had forgotten just how good it is and I think it may well stop me moving any further with MC cartridges.
Next cartridge will be something very different indeed! :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
13-05-2016, 21:21
Yes it is a very classy performer and does so much right. I thought my 301 was detailed but the 2M pulls out even more and has a touch more weight. I really had forgotten just how good it is and I think it may well stop me moving any further with MC cartridges.
Next cartridge will be something very different indeed! :eyebrows:
:)
Firebottle
14-05-2016, 06:09
Decca then James?
Decca then James?
Yes indeed.:)
A Decca? Never heard one, but it's on the list of things to try and get a listen to.
I am also still tempted by a Music Maker. I have heard so much about them, but this won't be until next year.
I think I have bought enough cartridges this year already.
A Decca? Never heard one, but it's on the list of things to try and get a listen to.
I am also still tempted by a Music Maker. I have heard so much about them, but this won't be until next year.
I think I have bought enough cartridges this year already.
Yes Kevin they soon mount up! I was on a mission to try and better the 2M and half convinced myself a moving coil would be better.........
I started out 30 years ago with a Decca / Garrard 301 and Croft amplification and this was the best system I ever owned. Sold the lot when Ceedee came in:rolleyes:
3 years ago I decided to sort another system out and was still intending to go digital until I went to my mates and heard a Decca again:eek:
Binned the idea of anything digital and went full on into vinyl and I don't regret that decision at all as I have had 3 years of fabulous music.
The Decca is not for the faint hearted and it does have its limitations but I do have some experience with them and this time I am going to do it properly. 30 years ago I had never heard or had the ability to adjust VTA!
Should be fun.:)
Oooohhhh That's a Lovely looking setup.. I'm Envious.
Sadly I can't replicate it.
The roomate has a cleaning Fetish and has destroyed the cantilevers on ~6 carts .. over the last decade.
Closed doors don't seem effective.
Clive197
14-05-2016, 16:46
Oooohhhh That's a Lovely looking setup.. I'm Envious.
Sadly I can't replicate it.
The roomate has a cleaning Fetish and has destroyed the cantilevers on ~6 carts .. over the last decade.
Closed doors don't seem effective.
So get another roommate ��LOL
Listening to the 2M again tonight.
It's fabulous!
I am still listening to the Hana SL and it is superb.
It's also black and has a Shibata.
Clive197
14-05-2016, 23:55
Still waiting for my Hana SL:violin:
I am still listening to the Hana SL and it is superb.
It's also black and has a Shibata.
Sounds good Kevin. How does it compare to the 2M?
I found going back to the 2M Black it had much more weight and balls to the sound with a vividness that sounds live.
I get what MC cartridges do -airy fairy top end etc but I like the solidity and structure of a good MM.
I have not listened to the 2M Black for a while, but I will say that the AT33PTG/II would probably be right up your street.
It sounds very solid throughout the frequency range.
The SL is also very good, but there seems a little less power/dynamics in the bass at the moment. It's still early days for the Hana though, and the suspension may not be fully run in.
They both dig out the detail, and both are an enjoyable listen. I plan to put a few more hours on the SL this weekend, as it is a bank holiday weekend. I will report back.
I have not listened to the 2M Black for a while, but I will say that the AT33PTG/II would probably be right up your street.
It sounds very solid throughout the frequency range.
The SL is also very good, but there seems a little less power/dynamics in the bass at the moment. It's still early days for the Hana though, and the suspension may not be fully run in.
They both dig out the detail, and both are an enjoyable listen. I plan to put a few more hours on the SL this weekend, as it is a bank holiday weekend. I will report back.
Enjoy your tunes.:)
I told a lie. The bass on the Hana SL is all there.
I quite like this cartridge. It's not "airy fairy", but there is good spatial separation.
It sounds very balanced across the frequency range, with nothing particularly dominating.
I will be interested to hear about your Decca journey.
I told a lie. The bass on the Hana SL is all there.
I quite like this cartridge. It's not "airy fairy", but there is good spatial separation.
It sounds very balanced across the frequency range, with nothing particularly dominating.
I will be interested to hear about your Decca journey.
Your description of the Hana SL sounds like the Denon 301 mk2.
The Decca will be with me next week but it needs to go off to John Wright for a retip and rebuild. Maybe a while before it is up and running.
The model I am getting is the Mark V which had a redesigned magnetic circuit to address hum issues, it was also housed in a metal box and became the first of the "London" cartridges which are the ones most folk are familiar with. The metal housing can vibrate a bit, I used to damp it with a lump of blue tac! This cartridge also had the best coils that were fitted to any of the Decca cartridges.
I am hoping the Decca will work fine in my tonearm which is both a unipivot and damped. There is some contention around the mounting bracket used as it is a plastic affair that looks a bit crap but it does actually help reduced some of the vibration from the cartridge from transferring into the headshell. There are a few alternative mounting brackets made of metal which clamp the tin can,sorry cartridge, more firmly however these do change the sound. I have had it on very reliable advice to stay with the original bracket as this sounds the best and this is from a long time Decca user.
It is both an exciting and apprehensive decision to run a Decca again but my abiding memory from years back when I had one was listening to a very vivid and immediate sounding cartridge which will probably make even the 2M Black sound quite slow and tame.:)
After a couple of months with the stunning Decca Blue on the VPI I have popped the 2M Black back on for a short while whilst the Blue goes for surgery. Immediately there is a loss in vitality, presence ,detail and dynamics.
The 2M sounds a lot softer and more restrained but it does have a bigger soundstage and micro detail.
Interesting going back when I thought the 2M was such a detailed vivid live performer, err not when you compare it to a Decca!
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2016, 19:26
:rfl: Yep I agree with every character of your last post.
After a weekend with the 2M decided to go back to the Decca and postpone surgery!
Honestly the 2M is crap in comparison!:eek: And I thought this was a great cartridge.:scratch:
brian2957
23-10-2016, 17:27
Och yer deaf man :lol:
Sounds like you need a 2nd Decca to help with the withdrawals James :eyebrows:
If you don't want the 2m black send it to me , I'm pretty sure it'll be better than what I've got the now :D
walpurgis
23-10-2016, 17:58
I have used many Deccas and still have a couple, but would sooner listen to the ZYX R100 H2 really. It offers the speed, clarity and incisiveness of the Deccas, but has deeper bass and rather better refinement. Marvellous imaging and depth too.
I have used many Deccas and still have a couple, but would sooner listen to the ZYX R100 H2 really. It offers the speed, clarity and incisiveness of the Deccas, but has deeper bass and rather better refinement. Marvellous imaging and depth too.
That ZYX must be some cartridge Geoff.
Och yer deaf man :lol:
Sounds like you need a 2nd Decca to help with the withdrawals James :eyebrows:
If you don't want the 2m black send it to me , I'm pretty sure it'll be better than what I've got the now :D
You must have read my mind Brian, indeed I am looking at getting another Decca to run with the extended line contact stylus and keep my Blue as is.
Wakefield Turntables
23-10-2016, 18:49
See if you can find a cheap Maroon.
See if you can find a cheap Maroon.
Might get another Blue or a gold as the Maroon are difficult to find at a reasonable price.
walpurgis
24-10-2016, 20:57
If you ever spot a good London Export Grey, get it. I've had various Londons and for some reason my Grey was definitely the best sounding. They are scarce though.
Popped the 2M Black back on as a new stylus is on the way. The Decca is resting for a while as you can have too much of a good thing. After quite a few months of indulging I gave come to the conclusion the Decca is like being at a banquet where you hog all the rich stuff and eat to excess then after you look forward to some plain home cooking. I have had the 2M for 3 years and it is a cartridge you can live with everyday whereas the Decca can be a bit too much.
Bit like having a Ferrari in the garage when sometimes you just want something a bit less race tuned about town!:)
Anyway the 2M is sounding fine but will be interested to see how far it has drifted from its original spec when I get the new stylus hopefully sometime next week?
Having a number of cartridges really is a worthwhile experience when you want to hear music from a different perspective.
A lot more difficult to do when you have digital. :)
Wakefield Turntables
02-12-2016, 20:25
Yep I agree with your comment with regards different carts for different occasions. I have several systems which fit that bill. It never fails to astonish me how good some of the old carts really are, especially DECCA/Shure after a little fettle. I've not bought a "new" cartridge in years, altough I can feel a SPU silver meister II coming in 2017 :eyebrows:.
Yep I agree with your comment with regards different carts for different occasions. I have several systems which fit that bill. It never fails to astonish me how good some of the old carts really are, especially DECCA/Shure after a little fettle. I've not bought a "new" cartridge in years, altough I can feel a SPU silver meister II coming in 2017 :eyebrows:.
The SPU will be interest Andy, look forward to hearing your thoughts.
RobbieGong
02-12-2016, 20:38
Popped the 2M Black back on as a new stylus is on the way. The Decca is resting for a while as you can have too much of a good thing. After quite a few months of indulging I gave come to the conclusion the Decca is like being at a banquet where you hog all the rich stuff and eat to excess then after you look forward to some plain home cooking. I have had the 2M for 3 years and it is a cartridge you can live with everyday whereas the Decca can be a bit too much.
Bit like having a Ferrari in the garage when sometimes you just want something a bit less race tuned about town!:)
Anyway the 2M is sounding fine but will be interested to see how far it has drifted from its original spec when I get the new stylus hopefully sometime next week?
Having a number of cartridges really is a worthwhile experience when you want to hear music from a different perspective.
A lot more difficult to do when you have digital. :)
Love the way you put it Jimbo and I know exactly what you mean.
There's a rightness, balance, and quality about the 2MB that makes it a joy of a cart to use.
I find it musical, accurate and non fatiguing too.
I only ever stopped playing tunes when I had it because I had to and never because I'd had enough, which is high praise.
My current cart, Its bigger sibling the Quintet Black is the same (it's the Shibata you know ;) ) but a little more refined and insightful. Bass is not quite as weighty I'd say but definitely more tuneful and accurate in texture.
Love the way you put it Jimbo and I know exactly what you mean.
There's a rightness, balance, and quality about the 2MB that makes it a joy of a cart to use.
I find it musical, accurate and non fatiguing too.
I only ever stopped playing tunes when I had it because I had to and never because I'd had enough, which is high praise.
My current cart, Its bigger sibling the Quintet Black is the same (it's the Shibata you know ;) ) but a little more refined and insightful. Bass is not quite as weighty I'd say but definitely more tuneful and accurate in texture.
I'd like to hear the Quintet Black Rob as expect it does have that refinement in the top end.
I almost wrote the 2M off last month when I swapped back from the Decca and heard a huge drop in performance but it's that annoying aspect of the 2M I got wrong-Set up!! Tonight I have it bang on and it really is a delight to listen too, quite a bit more relaxing than the Decca which does tend to grab you by the throat!:lol:
RobbieGong
02-12-2016, 20:48
I'd like to hear the Quintet Black Rob as expect it does have that refinement in the top end.
I almost wrote the 2M off last month when I swapped back from the Decca and heard a huge drop in performance but it's that annoying aspect of the 2M I got wrong-Set up!! Tonight I have it bang on and it really is a delight to listen too, quite a bit more relaxing than the Decca which does tend to grab you by the throat!:lol:
I've got to laugh Jim :) The Black always reminded me of that girlfriend that just blew ya mind BUT she wasnt good for you :D The bad bit in this case being the sheer pain, frustration, time and torture setting the blinkin thing up 'properly, it's so damn finicky / fussy BUT when you nail it and hit that sweetspot - Mama !! it's worth it :lol:
James, out of interest, have you ever tried the 2M Black on the Lenco?
My 2M black is now three years old on the original stylus but sounds fantastic so I am not sure if it has worn much,however as a precaution I have bought a new stylus and will pop this in over the Christmas period. It will be interesting to hear the difference if any. The fact this stylus has lasted this long without any audible deterioration is amazing especially as I have about 1500-1800 hours on it. Mind you I do have super clean vinyl courtesy of a VPI 16.5 RCM. I have heard the 2M can last 2000 + hours if used on nice clean vinyl?
Although I have been on a cartridge safari over the last year I must admit the 2M is like slipping on an old pair of slippers or trainers. It does so much right and has hardly any negative aspects. It is always satisfying to listen too and whilst I was playing some vinyl last night I realised one if its greatest attributes which is to create an almost 'Live' sound with recordings. It is almost as if it enhances the transient information in recordings to create that nice spacial effect you get with live recordings.
I would almost say that the 2M Black is like a fine wine in that it improves with age although I am aware eventually it will tip over into negative territory. Ok I am lucky in that it it really is a cartridge which excels and has true synergy with my system. The first time I heard this cartridge was with a pair of massive Dynaudio C4's with a huge simaudio amplifier driving them. The soundstage and detail was stunning and a life changing experience for me as it was this that convinced me to return back to vinyl and not go down the digital route.
Three years on I am so glad I pursued this route as it has given me immense pleasure and a renewed interest in music in general. Anyone who has realised and tamed the set up of the 2M Black will know what I am talking about as it really is one of those special cartridges that can give you an insight into recordings that makes you feel there and part of the performance.
Nice to think 3 years on this is where my journey back into hifi started and such I hold this cartridge in great affection.:cool:
RobbieGong
23-12-2016, 17:55
Your thoughts are spot on Jimbo and I'm glad you came along. Until you did I used to think these guys must be thinking what is it with this bloke banging on about this bl&&dy cart all the time :lol: but that's what the 2MB does to you.
It really does make going through your tunes a pleasure to the point where you just cant help wanting to let everyone know about how good it is, even if that is time and time again - sorry :)
To quote you 'It does so much right and has hardly any negative aspects' you've also nailed the 'live' thing which one review I read many years back pinpointed and praised it for.
Recordings sound real and live as they should not flat/solid.
I've recorded in the past and when you are in a studio and in front of a studio mike recording, there is absolutely a sense of air which the 2MB draws out.
That is likely due to it's high quality Shibata stylus profile which digs very deep into the groove, allowing great contact with the groove walls for oodles of extraction of the recorded information.
The 2MB is the reason why my first mc had to have the same sound / dna so to speak - hence upgrading to it's samely Shibata clad bigger sibling the Quintet Black.
I was delighted that it did indeed turn out to portray the same sound and qualities, only difference being a slightly more transparent / refined top end (thats mc' for you generally over mm's) and a little more timbre / textural info of the individual parts.
For example, whilst the 2MB's bass in my set up was a little more weighty, the QB's bass tone is more tuneful and more informative in terms of textural information and of the bass type being played.
These are not big differences which is testament to the 2MB's capabilities.
The flagship Ortofon Shibata clad sibling, the Cadenza Black must really be something very special and I hope to end up with one one day, again that's thanks due to the 2MB :)
Nice you have cross referenced the 2M against the Quintet black and like me you have pondered how good the Cadenza black must sound. I think if I had the cash spare I would seriously look at this cartridge especially as others here on the site have had such good results with it. However moving into MC territory for me is a fickle thing and I am nervous of spending big money on the burgers. I also have an eye on the ZYX cartridges which I believe deliver some thing very special too.
Like you Rob I have great regard for the 2M and considering its price I don't think there is much to touch it, most other really good cartridges start a few hundred quid higher. I really believe you need to double the price with the 2M to get an MC that really delivers something more exciting.
As you may be aware I have a Decca which also does something special but the time I have a line contact stylus fitted to this it will be £600. However it is a stunning device although like fine wines and rare whiskey it is best in small doses!!:)
You guys really need to try the AT150MLX (or the EPC-U205 if you can find one).
There are so many cartridges I ought to try Kev but I have more than enough to keep me happy at the moment. They soon start to drain your bank account!:)
RobbieGong
23-12-2016, 20:58
I agree Jimbo regarding the fickleness of mc's you have to be careful as one mans meat can be another mans poison and these things aint cheap. There's usually no suck it and see in the full context of your own system and home before buying unfortunately. Thats the reason why I've stuck to the sound / dna I know and love as I've never been a swopper or one for trying different flavours. The music from an accurate quality cart, that digs deep, gets out of the way letting the honesty of whats recorded flow through is all the flavour I need as the flavour is in the music ;) (Never felt the urge for a cart that excites but only in small doses)
That about sums it up for me regards the 2MB and QB in the context of a good deck and system - cant get enough of playing music with them.
Like you i've been very intrigued by the ZYX's for a good while now but never heard one.
As tempting as it was, I went with the QB for reasons as fore-mentioned and very happy indeed - definitely same mum and dad as the 2MB :)
walpurgis
23-12-2016, 21:05
There are so many cartridges I ought to try Kev but I have more than enough to keep me happy at the moment. They soon start to drain your bank account!:)
I know the feeling. I have a dozen if I recall. That's probably eleven too many. :)
So over the holiday period I popped a new stylus in my 2M black. Tad expensive although got it for £310 in a Black Friday sale. Wasn't sure what to expect but after initial running in period it is an enlightening experience.
First impressions are how much tighter and solidly defined everything sounds especially the bass. 3D imaging is way better and overall the soundstage feels more controlled. Detail on strings is much easier to pick out and the general air and ambience in the recording is much more obvious. Also get the impression there is more dynamics. Obviously the suspension is still a bit stiff but I feel at end of life the suspension may have gone too far the other way? Finally I am getting more clarity from recordings, just that bit more transparency.
Definitely worth every penny and confirms my opinion that the 2M is a truly stunning cartridge that gives so much satisfaction across a very wide range of material and can be listened too for long periods without fatigue. Wonderfully expressive in my system with a particular synergy with the Croft and Spendors.
Dubster68
28-12-2016, 20:49
Had mine in just under a month and loving it after about 5 goes at setting it up:lol:. Stunning sound once its all set up. I have no regrets at all.:D
RobbieGong
28-12-2016, 20:51
So over the holiday period I popped a new stylus in my 2M black. Tad expensive although got it for £310 in a Black Friday sale. Wasn't sure what to expect but after initial running in period it is an enlightening experience.
First impressions are how much tighter and solidly defined everything sounds especially the bass. 3D imaging is way better and overall the soundstage feels more controlled. Detail on strings is much easier to pick out and the general air and ambience in the recording is much more obvious. Also get the impression there is more dynamics. Obviously the suspension is still a bit stiff but I feel at end of life the suspension may have gone too far the other way? Finally I am getting more clarity from recordings, just that bit more transparency.
Definitely worth every penny and confirms my opinion that the 2M is a truly stunning cartridge that gives so much satisfaction across a very wide range of material and can be listened too for long periods without fatigue. Wonderfully expressive in my system with a particular synergy with the Croft and Spendors.
Nice one Jimbo, and yep, spot on.
I am missing that pleasure pretty badly as my system has been down for quite a few months now.
My amp has been away having a full re-cap, but another issue transpired before I got it back which is being diagnosed. May be transformer related but still being investigated and properly traced.
Had new bearings fitted to my tonearm as well so I'm going to be a very happy bunny when it is all back up and running again.
im so glad i bought one,spent the best part of the day raising my arm up...then down...then up again!! i have it were i think it sounds good now thank the lord! the detail it pulls out of the groove is excellent! some more tweaking tomorrow if only just to reinforce my current settings are right.
RobbieGong
28-12-2016, 21:08
im so glad i bought one,spent the best part of the day raising my arm up...then down...then up again!! i have it were i think it sounds good now thank the lord! the detail it pulls out of the groove is excellent! some more tweaking tomorrow if only just to reinforce my current settings are right.
Hi Jamie, great stuf, wondered where you got to :)
Nice one Jimbo, and yep, spot on.
I am missing that pleasure pretty badly as my system has been down for quite a few months now.
My amp has been away having a full re-cap, but another issue transpired before I got it back which is being diagnosed. May be transformer related but still being investigated and properly traced.
Had new bearings fitted to my tonearm as well so I'm going to be a very happy bunny when it is all back up and running again.
Which tonearm are you using Rob? I am sure the new bearings will make a difference.
im so glad i bought one,spent the best part of the day raising my arm up...then down...then up again!! i have it were i think it sounds good now thank the lord! the detail it pulls out of the groove is excellent! some more tweaking tomorrow if only just to reinforce my current settings are right.
Glad you percievered with the 2M and yes it does take a lot of raising and lowering the tonearm to get the VTA right but it is worth the effort. When I replaced my stylus I wondered if it would mean I would have to reset the bloody thing but no, It was bang on. Only curious difference was the new stylus tracked 0.02g lighter.
Must have been the crud on the old one!:lol:
Dubster68
30-12-2016, 14:47
I dont know if this helps anyone but here goes. I struggled with over sensitive pops and crackles and not the best sound when setting up the Black. Like so many people I thought I had wasted my money. Once I put the tone arm rear down off level the sound just opened up. I have just had my Jelco tone arm off again and used the below pics I took a few weeks back to set it up again. Sounds absolutely amazing.
Perfect for me:D
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/Mick1B/IMG_4159.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/Mick1B/media/IMG_4159.jpg.html)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/Mick1B/IMG_4160.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/Mick1B/media/IMG_4160.jpg.html)
it defiantly is better with the tonearm down at the back,you really have to push through the tedious set up,its well worth the end result.great bubble level,where did you buy it from?
Yep it makes your tonearm angle a bit crazy but the 2M really does like to be down at the back.
Dubster68
30-12-2016, 18:57
it defiantly is better with the tonearm down at the back,you really have to push through the tedious set up,its well worth the end result.great bubble level,where did you buy it from?
Had the spirit level for years. It was in a cheap kit I think from a pound shop somewhere. Comes in handy for little jobs. Used it for tonearm levelling in the past.
2M Black with new stylus has run in now after a good session at the weekend with Brian 2957.
Even though I have had this cartridge 3 years it still amazed me with its performance.
brian2957
18-01-2017, 16:10
Aye , thoroughly enjoyed listening to your fantastic system James :)
Playing some nice moody Basie jazz with the 2M
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsly99kwgk.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsly99kwgk.jpeg.html)
Firebottle
28-01-2017, 20:36
N I C E
Playing some nice moody Basie jazz with the 2M
sweet as,any chance of a side view of the tonearm ,so we can get an idea of your vta please
brian2957
28-01-2017, 20:57
You forgot to put the record clamp on James :D
Sorry Jamie not the best photo at night. The line down the arm tube is used to view VTA as the arm tube is tapered.
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpstgqfsm3x.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpstgqfsm3x.jpeg.html)
You forgot to put the record clamp on James :D
Yes I only really use it for warped records or when I can be bothered!:)
Changed photo Jamie to a day light shot. Bit better but light not great. Think it shows tonearm and VTA better.
Looks slightly tail down
Yes Grant it is slightly tail down and as you can see from the tonearm angle it looks quite extreme and probably more than people would imagine. Think this is where folk find difficulty setting up the 2M as VTA does require quite a significant adjustment to the tonearm which looks way out, probably more so than for any other cartridge set up.
If it work it works.. looks to be about a 1:10 slope. Sure Jamie will appreciate that pic Jim.
thanks for that!
yep mine is the same,glad to know we are on the same page as it were :)
Dubster68
29-01-2017, 13:51
Is amazing how low the rear goes but its where it works best. I spent do much time trying to make it level with not the best results.
My 2 month old 2M Black has had to go back to Ortofon to be checked out after it failed the other night.
Very long story which resulted in major investigation of my system. I though one of my speakers had gone, then power amp, preamp etc etc until finally I checked my cartridge and pulled out the 2M stylus and replaced it with my old stylus. Bang everything was back to normal. So something has happened to the 2M. Cantilever looks straight but can't see much of the diamond. Dealer was excellent and asked me to send it straight to them who would send to Ortofon and replace if found faulty.
My Denon 301 mk2 will now be back in service for a while.:rolleyes:
RobbieGong
02-03-2017, 20:14
Very odd James, hope it's all sorted and soon :)
Dubster68
02-03-2017, 20:15
My 2 month old 2M Black has had to go back to Ortofon to be checked out after it failed the other night.
Very long story which resulted in major investigation of my system. I though one of my speakers had gone, then power amp, preamp etc etc until finally I checked my cartridge and pulled out the 2M stylus and replaced it with my old stylus. Bang everything was back to normal. So something has happened to the 2M. Cantilever looks straight but can't see much of the diamond. Dealer was excellent and asked me to send it straight to them who would send to Ortofon and replace if found faulty.
My Denon 301 mk2 will now be back in service for a while.:rolleyes:
Keep us updated Jim:goodluck:
Thanks chaps, will post up Ortofon investigation when I hear back.
OK an update on my 2M Black. It eventually made its way to Denmark to be checked at the Ortofon factory and they have come back and said the stylus does not meet their specification and therefore will replace with brand new.
Although I have had to wait a few weeks I am a patient man and feel they have done a proper and thorough investigation and the outcome is a new stylus which for me is a good result. It also vindicates my feeling there was something wrong with the stylus and it is encouraging customer complaints are dealt with integrity by Ortofon.
Excellent customer service I would say.
Dubster68
27-03-2017, 14:26
OK an update on my 2M Black. It eventually made its way to Denmark to be checked at the Ortofon factory and they have come back and said the stylus does not meet their specification and therefore will replace with brand new.
Although I have had to wait a few weeks I am a patient man and feel they have done a proper and thorough investigation and the outcome is a new stylus which for me is a good result. It also vindicates my feeling there was something wrong with the stylus and it is encouraging customer complaints are dealt with integrity by Ortofon.
Excellent customer service I would say.
Well done Jim. Though a pain in the :booty: at least they have resolved it:D
RobbieGong
27-03-2017, 21:11
OK an update on my 2M Black. It eventually made its way to Denmark to be checked at the Ortofon factory and they have come back and said the stylus does not meet their specification and therefore will replace with brand new.
Although I have had to wait a few weeks I am a patient man and feel they have done a proper and thorough investigation and the outcome is a new stylus which for me is a good result. It also vindicates my feeling there was something wrong with the stylus and it is encouraging customer complaints are dealt with integrity by Ortofon.
Excellent customer service I would say.
Nice one Jim :thumbsup:
brian2957
27-03-2017, 21:24
Do you think it was faulty from the outset James ?
Do you think it was faulty from the outset James ?
No I think it developed a fault during use, suspect it could be internal issue or maybe diamond chipped? I will try and find out what from Ortofon what the problem was. They just said it did not meet specification.
After almost 4 months I found it , that dreaded sweet spot . Yes every thing just seemed to pop into place, it's like catching your breath after almost drowning if you know what I mean , everything just opened up ,example extended highs great mids tight bass it just so much clearer and better . It's like someone had just opened the window( me)haha. Thank again some of the members for their input and help. Cheers and thank you.
brian2957
01-04-2017, 08:03
If I were you I would be taking pictures Con :)
Great to hear you got it nailed Con. It is worth the perseverance as it is a truly excellent cartridge when set up just right and in the right system. This cartridge will tell you everything you need to know on those black discs.:)
RobbieGong
01-04-2017, 10:34
That's great news Con, glad you stuck with it, I actually thought you were gonna bail out and move it on.
It can drive you literally mad but most definitely worth it :)
ive probably asked you before but what tracking weight did you settle on?
RobbieGong
01-04-2017, 11:02
ive probably asked you before but what tracking weight did you settle on?
Me or Con Jamie ?
I track at 1.6g. I found it best to run it towards the heavier end of its tracking weight as it does help if you have any vinyl pressings with a bit if sibilance on them.
Hi guys just a quick roundup on my 2 m black setting . I've got it on 1.6 gr VTA IS AT 3.7 mm please be advised that I am using 6mm thick crystal glass platter ,that's for anyone using a stock techie arm and a thick platter ,their best place to start would be between 3.4&4.2 mm VTA with small movement up and down and suddenly you go what was that? You will hear a deference,and that's when you really know you found it. But be very very sure the cartridge is set up spot on on the protractor ( Stevenson- Qwin). Thanks again.
Me or Con Jamie ?
the more the merrier matey,
im on 1.6 as well,thats 3 of us :)
RobbieGong
01-04-2017, 14:31
the more the merrier matey,
im on 1.6 as well,thats 3 of us :)
I always start at the recommended tracking weight so 1.5gm when I had the 2MB.
After everything else has been done, I then vta adjusted where I've always found that '2MB sweet spot'.
I'm sure whenever I've nailed it tracking force would have been somewhere in between the 1.5 and 1.6
cheers rob,interesting how we are all in the same ball park re set up.
im hoping my new cd player doesnt leave the TT behind.
So nearly one month after sending my 2M Black back to Ortofon I have had a replacement. They never did come back to me to let me know what the issue was with the stylus but said it did not meet specification.
Anyway a new stylus is now back in my hand and I will spend the Easter weekend breaking it in and setting up -joy!
brian2957
13-04-2017, 12:13
Enjoy yourself James . I'm sure it'll keep you occupied :D
RobbieGong
14-04-2017, 12:25
:thumbsup:
So nearly one month after sending my 2M Black back to Ortofon I have had a replacement. They never did come back to me to let me know what the issue was with the stylus but said it did not meet specification.
Anyway a new stylus is now back in my hand and I will spend the Easter weekend breaking it in and setting up -joy!
Enjoy JAMES AND HAPPY EASTER TO ALL. Now quick update just installed oyaide hs-tf headshell significant upgrade money well spent. One issue that I noticed is from 3.7 VTA down to 0.3 mm VTA FOR MY SWEET SPOT and all that on a 6 mm glass mat ,so if my calculations are right the oyaide headshell would not be appropriate on a thinner mat for that sweet spot with the 2m black. So any future oyaide headshell buyers please look into this issue . Bare in mind I am using stock tonearm.
I nailed the sweet spot for the 2M very quickly and it seems to be opening up nicely.
Going from a 3 year old stylus to new really is like cleaning your windows and opening the curtains.
The biggest differences are, detail, clarity, tighter bass and less distortion. Everything sounds super sweet and clean. It's only when you swap in a new one you can tell the difference. After 3 years of heavy use I think my old 2M really is ready for the bin!:)
Once you know how the sweet spot sounds like it's much easier to find it again. Apart from the above detail clarity bass have you guys noticed a shift in the soundstage as well or was it just me.
Had the new 2M black stylus now for 4 weeks and probably done about 50 hours. . I have been listening very carefully and taking notes each week as it ran in and must say there is quite a difference from new.
Biggest areas that have improved are soundstage and bass. The 2M absolutely masters bass control and dynamic swings. The top end has also become more refined.
I am tracking at 1.6g and VTA is slightly lower at the back. So this is where I will leave it for the next 2 years until it needs replacement.:)
I recently re did mine and found setting the bottom of the cartridge parallel with the record was just a tad to bright, dropping the tonearm about 3mm at the back works wonders.
RobbieGong
22-05-2017, 12:24
Had the new 2M black stylus now for 4 weeks and probably done about 50 hours. . I have been listening very carefully and taking notes each week as it ran in and must say there is quite a difference from new.
Biggest areas that have improved are soundstage and bass. The 2M absolutely masters bass control and dynamic swings. The top end has also become more refined.
I am tracking at 1.6g and VTA is slightly lower at the back. So this is where I will leave it for the next 2 years until it needs replacement.:)
:lol: Totally relate Jim. I've literally lost sleep at the thought of ever losing that 'spot' again or having to tamper for whatever reason :eek: - The pain and joys of the majestic 2MB :)
Weird thing was after running in for 4 weeks the overhang stylus position had shifted. I have a very accurate metal cartridge protractor that comes with the VPI Turntable and the stylus tip had moved even though I had not adjusted VTA or weight since setting up.
Is this due to change in cartridge suspension ?:scratch:
RobbieGong
22-05-2017, 16:18
Weird thing was after running in for 4 weeks the overhang stylus position had shifted. I have a very accurate metal cartridge protractor that comes with the VPI Turntable and the stylus tip had moved even though I had not adjusted VTA or weight since setting up.
Is this due to change in cartridge suspension ?:scratch:
No! That's just the Black, it's bonkers! :lol:
Dubster68
23-05-2017, 00:19
No! That's just the Black, it's bonkers! :lol:
:lol::lol::lol::mental:
RobbieGong
21-06-2017, 16:07
A potential no brainer bargain here for someone and a chance to taste a top notch Black at potentially daft money - £1850 new.
Could go another 1000 hrs plus if he's looked after it which I suspect he has http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Cadenza-Black-/263037841803?hash=item3d3e46f18b:g:TckAAOSwjvJZQZH W
sweet :)
what can you expect if going from a 2m black robbie?
RobbieGong
21-06-2017, 16:42
Do you know Jamie, I have not even heard my Cadenza B yet.
My system has been down for the past year and it has hurt badly :(
The good new is it's been due to upgrades as in re-cap of my completely rebuilt Sansui AU 919 integrated amp, and paying down on a Paul Hynes SR7 psu plus his triple stage regs which is all done now.
I drive up to Norfolk on Friday for install of the regs and to collect the power supply :)
On top of that my tonearm has been re-wired and has new hybrid ceramic bearings fitted.
I havnt heard my system with the Cadenza B, recapped amp, tonearm re-wire, regs, psu etc so I'm in for a bit of a shock when I fire her up soon, not to mention some serious evaluation / critical listening :yay:. :dance:
Forgive me for the diversion and back to your question :o
Having had both the other two Shibata clad Ortofons, I'm can only expect that the Cadenza Black will be a class act of the highest order.
I've read detailed, dynamic, refined, airy, as expected but even more insight into the individual parts ie: finger plucks, differentiation of instruments, tone, texture etc.
I can not wait to get mine going.
It's a high end cart - one editor review here probably sums it up https://www.henleydesigns.co.uk/ui/product/product-review.aspx?ProductID=641
user review https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_reviews.php?make=Ortofon&model=Cadenza%20Black
user review http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131568.0
and there's loads more online ;)
cheers mate,i bet you cant wait to get that lot up and running!!
RobbieGong
21-06-2017, 16:55
cheers mate,i bet you cant wait to get that lot up and running!!
Understatement of the year Jamie with respect. The journey has been long as I am certainly not flush so I've been building to where I want to get to for many years,
BUT gosh! the last year has been agony - such a long down time but it's literally the last hurdle - mission accomplished, destination arrival :)
I have next Thursday and Friday off too to really get some time with her, set up, music everything I can to nail that sweet-spot and get her optimum - Did I say I cant wait :D I've earned this moment and will feedback in due course :)
Wakefield Turntables
21-06-2017, 18:07
Understatement of the year Jamie with respect. The journey has been long as I am certainly not flush so I've been building to where I want to get to for many years,
BUT gosh! the last year has been agony - such a long down time but it's literally the last hurdle - mission accomplished, destination arrival :)
I have next Thursday and Friday off too to really get some time with her, set up, music everything I can to nail that sweet-spot and get her optimum - Did I say I cant wait :D I've earned this moment and will feedback in due course :)
Be prepared for some frustration on setting the cart up. Once it's done just leave alone and play!
RobbieGong
21-06-2017, 18:36
Be prepared for some frustration on setting the cart up. Once it's done just leave alone and play!
Absolutely Andy! Thanks :thumbsup:
Nice one Rob, hope it works out well in your system.:cool:
I usually run my 2M at 1.6g VTF but after tweaking the VTA I decided to back off the weight to 1.5g. This has produced a significantly better result with more air and greater realism. It's almost like focusing a camera. There is an ideal VTF / VTA for the 2M but because you are altering both its tricky to find and it maybe a different combination for any given tonearm and turntable. However when you find it things certainly snap into place.
Interestingly I have tracked the 2M at 1.5g and lower before but never hit the sweet spot so this must be in collaboration with the VTA. Now to some this maybe obvious but for those new to the 2M it is worth bearing in mind. Bit like putting together a 3D puzzle. I would say just start with 1.5g and adjust VTA accordingly but as you adjust VTA the VTF changes.
No wonder some folks get frustrated and don't achieve the ideal set up!
interesting as that is the optimum weight ortofon recommends.
how would you describe the sweet spot,i played with my vta and went lower than i thought would be best,all of a sudden i found the vocals and instruments all balanced out,with lots of instruments playing at once i could hear them all individually.
initially it sounded less dynamic but i stuck with it and all the detail is still there.
does that go with your findings
interesting as that is the optimum weight ortofon recommends.
how would you describe the sweet spot,i played with my vta and went lower than i thought would be best,all of a sudden i found the vocals and instruments all balanced out,with lots of instruments playing at once i could hear them all individually.
initially it sounded less dynamic but i stuck with it and all the detail is still there.
does that go with your findings
There is a fine balance with the VTA, if you go too low you will know it because it starts to sound a bit heavy and dull and you loose the top end detail and space around the instruments etc. I think higher tracking force is only necessary if you are getting distortion, sibelance or poor tracking. I feel the lower you can go with the VTF the more air and detail you get but if you go too far distortion will creep in.
All good fun.:)
RobbieGong
21-07-2017, 21:30
I usually run my 2M at 1.6g VTF but after tweaking the VTA I decided to back off the weight to 1.5g. This has produced a significantly better result with more air and greater realism. It's almost like focusing a camera. There is an ideal VTF / VTA for the 2M but because you are altering both its tricky to find and it maybe a different combination for any given tonearm and turntable. However when you find it things certainly snap into place.
Interestingly I have tracked the 2M at 1.5g and lower before but never hit the sweet spot so this must be in collaboration with the VTA. Now to some this maybe obvious but for those new to the 2M it is worth bearing in mind. Bit like putting together a 3D puzzle. I would say just start with 1.5g and adjust VTA accordingly but as you adjust VTA the VTF changes.
No wonder some folks get frustrated and don't achieve the ideal set up!
Absolutely Jimbo,
The 2MB is a precision piece of kit, It will just not sound like the stellar cart it is until you have it optimally set so that it's Shibata stylus rides properly in the groove.
And yes, with careful, steady on the fly vta it kind of snaps into 'focus'.
The first time it happened to me was an absolute revelation
1. I wasnt expecting that to happen
2. The way it played the music from that point on :eek: as I say a revelation along my hifi journey :)
Absolutely Jimbo,
The 2MB is a precision piece of kit, It will just not sound like the stellar cart it is until you have it optimally set so that it's Shibata stylus rides properly in the groove.
And yes, with careful, steady on the fly vta it kind of snaps into 'focus'.
The first time it happened to me was an absolute revelation
1. I wasnt expecting that to happen
2. The way it played the music from that point on :eek: as I say a revelation along my hifi journey :)
Hi Rob, I am always learning with the 2M Black having had one in my system now for 3 years. You are absolutely right, when you hit the sweet spot it is a revelation and pure joy. :)
Floyddroid
21-07-2017, 21:37
A Decca? Never heard one, but it's on the list of things to try and get a listen to.
I am also still tempted by a Music Maker. I have heard so much about them, but this won't be until next year.
I think I have bought enough cartridges this year already.
I borrowed a music maker. It sounded as dull as dish water.
I borrowed a music maker. It sounded as dull as dish water.
A Decca won't sound dull.:)
walpurgis
21-07-2017, 21:56
A Decca won't sound dull.:)
It won't sound like any other cartridge either. :)
Firebottle
22-07-2017, 07:19
You are absolutely right, when you hit the sweet spot it is a revelation and pure joy. :)
I need to hear this James :thumbsup:
I need to hear this James :thumbsup:
I think you would find the Decca more interesting to listen too. I need to get mine retipped soon as I could not live with the odd bit of mistracking. A nice line contact should do it and then it will be like a 2M on steroids!:eek::lol:
As the detergent for record cleaning did not arrive yesterday I thought I'd spend some time, most of yesterday in the end, attempting to find the 2M's " G spot ". Having recently changed the arm from a SME 3009S2 to a Mission 774 I am keen to get the best from it and as we know the 2M is a bit of a challenge to hit audio nirvana. I had it in the right-ish place but thought it could give more so out with the Allen keys, digital scales and feeler gauges. After a lot of very tiny alterations to both VTA and VTF I started to notice a clarity not there before so I raised the VTA another .5mm and WOW, it just seemed to come alive with energy and realism, the individual instruments were all there in perfect balance and the vocals wonderfully precise. I moved the VTA a little further and it lost it's sparkle so quickly put it back to the previous setting. As best as I can gauge the VTA is around 2 degrees down at the back of the arm and the VTF is bang on 1.7g. Fiddly little sod that it is the 2M Black is so worth persisting with.
Bigman80
23-07-2017, 13:13
The 774 is doing the job I see. A good arm get the best from the cartridge!!!
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
The 774 is doing the job I see. A good arm get the best from the cartridge!!!
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Very, very happy with the 774 and I'm even beginning to like it's looks haha.
Bigman80
23-07-2017, 13:23
Very, very happy with the 774 and I'm even beginning to like it's looks haha.Hahaha. It does grow on you. You'd have to spend A LOT more to do any better imo.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
As the detergent for record cleaning did not arrive yesterday I thought I'd spend some time, most of yesterday in the end, attempting to find the 2M's " G spot ". Having recently changed the arm from a SME 3009S2 to a Mission 774 I am keen to get the best from it and as we know the 2M is a bit of a challenge to hit audio nirvana. I had it in the right-ish place but thought it could give more so out with the Allen keys, digital scales and feeler gauges. After a lot of very tiny alterations to both VTA and VTF I started to notice a clarity not there before so I raised the VTA another .5mm and WOW, it just seemed to come alive with energy and realism, the individual instruments were all there in perfect balance and the vocals wonderfully precise. I moved the VTA a little further and it lost it's sparkle so quickly put it back to the previous setting. As best as I can gauge the VTA is around 2 degrees down at the back of the arm and the VTF is bang on 1.7g. Fiddly little sod that it is the 2M Black is so worth persisting with.
Interesting your at the upper end of the recommended VTF fir the 2M but with your arm and TT this is obviously where you need to be to hit the sweet spot. Even though I have had one for 3 years I still find them frustrating but fabulous when you get them right!:cool:
Interesting your at the upper end of the recommended VTF fir the 2M but with your arm and TT this is obviously where you need to be to hit the sweet spot. Even though I have had one for 3 years I still find them frustrating but fabulous when you get them right!:cool:
I first had the 2m on an LP12/Ittok that was set up by an " expert " and then on the Toshiba/SME and now with the 774 and it definitely sounds the best it ever has for me. As you say James, very frustrating but persevere and the rewards are great.
for reference my 'sweet spot' is here with 1.54 tracking weight,i used to use 1.67 but like jimbo found its seems better lower.
next job is to find it for 180g vinyl :rolleyes:
https://s26.postimg.org/czjaji6rt/IMG_1591_1.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/opx80vzk9/IMG_1590_1.jpg
for reference my 'sweet spot' is here with 1.54 tracking weight,i used to use 1.67 but like jimbo found its seems better lower.
next job is to find it for 180g vinyl :rolleyes:
https://s26.postimg.org/czjaji6rt/IMG_1591_1.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/opx80vzk9/IMG_1590_1.jpg
Jamie your tonearm angle looks very similar to mine and the cartridge body looks bang on. The lower VTF does seem to sound better I feel, nice you found it good too.:cool:
Back in black again!
After sending the Kontrapunkt b back I returned to the 2M. Still a superb cartridge but lacks the refinement and subtle shading and tone of the KB. However it is still a wonderful insightful cartridge.
Listening late last night to the last track ( Swell does the skull) on the fabulous Aldous Harding album -Party I think the KB only just edged it in reality. MC cartridges seem to have a trick of floating sounds in space with a slightly ethereal quality compared to the more grounded MM cartridge. I suppose this transparency is one the best attributes certainly of the Kontrapunkt B.
Ah well I am happy to return to the 2M for a while and enjoy its dynamic live vitality.
I'm going to try my one again as I've changed the setting I use on the SMARTractor.
I think it was Rob who mentioned a few days ago' when you got the jockey in the saddle' it really is a superb cartridge.
I have had mine off and on the my TT so often I can set it up blindfolded.:)
RobbieGong
24-02-2018, 20:52
I think it was Rob who mentioned a few days ago' when you got the jockey in the saddle' it really is a superb cartridge.
I have had mine off and on the my TT so often I can set it up blindfolded.:)
:)
Dubster68
28-02-2018, 13:59
Great cart. Just loves to be in the correct position to give its all.
Well after swapping to the SPOTFIRE cable the 2M Black has changed character slightly. Gone is the slightly edgy top end and the tendency to harden up on some recordings. It now sounds much more refined but still with all the detail, dynamic live sound I have appreciated for the last 3-4 years.
The power and gravitas this cartridge has is stunning, and its 3D rendering of instruments is very noticeable. I have set this cartridge up more times than I care to remember and can now install it absolutely spot on. I am aware I have now been writing about this cartridge for a long time but as with all aspects of equipment you don't always appreciate all its qualities straight away and over the years I have been drawn to more of the 2M blacks capabilities.
I know for some the 2M cartridge can be too much or they just don't get on with it but when it works with your system in a balanced way it is simply a fabulous cartridge. I think bright speakers and solid state electronics can over egg the pudding so I would suggest valve amplification and soft fabric dome tweeters are your friend.
I have been down a long and interesting path with cartridges over the last few years and indeed have been selling many of them off as I have now found what really works with my system. They have all had their own strengths and weaknesses but the 2M has almost none in my system especially now the new cable has given the cartridge a more favourable capacitance. All this just goes to show system synergy is everything and you have to trust your own judgement on this. The road to audio Nirvana can be a tortuous one but when you reach it you know it!:)
I have decided now that I will end my search for the perfect cartridge and focus on other areas of my system in future that can be tweaked.
Bigman80
30-06-2018, 09:20
I think that's a wise move, Jim. Having heard your system, I think you need that rawness and (at times) slightly edgy treble of the 2MBK. You have put together a really good sounding system and I think you'd have to spend a fair bit of money to start seeing big improvement.
I think that's a wise move, Jim. Having heard your system, I think you need that rawness and (at times) slightly edgy treble of the 2MBK. You have put together a really good sounding system and I think you'd have to spend a fair bit of money to start seeing big improvement.
You may need to reappraise my system Oli as the 2M no longer sounds edgy due to the SPOTFIRE cable.:)
Bigman80
30-06-2018, 10:13
You may need to reappraise my system Oli as the 2M no longer sounds edgy due to the SPOTFIRE cable.:)Ah, good point. I don't want to take ALL the credit for your new found happiness but..............[emoji6]
Just kidding, I'll definitely come and have a listen when time allows but I know you have a few big things going on so no rush.
Ah, good point. I don't want to take ALL the credit for your new found happiness but..............[emoji6]
Just kidding, I'll definitely come and have a listen when time allows but I know you have a few big things going on so no rush.
:lol:
RobbieGong
30-06-2018, 16:54
Well after swapping to the SPOTFIRE cable the 2M Black has changed character slightly. Gone is the slightly edgy top end and the tendency to harden up on some recordings. It now sounds much more refined but still with all the detail, dynamic live sound I have appreciated for the last 3-4 years.
The power and gravitas this cartridge has is stunning, and its 3D rendering of instruments is very noticeable. I have set this cartridge up more times than I care to remember and can now install it absolutely spot on. I am aware I have now been writing about this cartridge for a long time but as with all aspects of equipment you don't always appreciate all its qualities straight away and over the years I have been drawn to more of the 2M blacks capabilities.
I know for some the 2M cartridge can be too much or they just don't get on with it but when it works with your system in a balanced way it is simply a fabulous cartridge. I think bright speakers and solid state electronics can over egg the pudding so I would suggest valve amplification and soft fabric dome tweeters are your friend.
I have been down a long and interesting path with cartridges over the last few years and indeed have been selling many of them off as I have now found what really works with my system. They have all had their own strengths and weaknesses but the 2M has almost none in my system especially now the new cable has given the cartridge a more favourable capacitance. All this just goes to show system synergy is everything and you have to trust your own judgement on this. The road to audio Nirvana can be a tortuous one but when you reach it you know it!:)
I have decided now that I will end my search for the perfect cartridge and focus on other areas of my system in future that can be tweaked.
As your joint number1 2MB fan :D I love reading your musings and write ups about your experiences with it.
It is a superb cart worthy of pride of place in any system.
Some felt £460 for an mm was too much money but having gone through it's pricier siblings / same dna Quintet Black mc and my current Cadenza Black, the truth is the 2MB is a class act at a bargain price, all things considered ;)
I am still trying to make my mind up between the Hana SL and AT33PTG/II.
They are both good, but a little different. I still need to get a few more hours on the Hana to make sure it's fully run in, and you go and post this.... :rolleyes:
:lol:
What loading are you using for the Hana??
Whilst it sounds good on the standard 100ohms most phonos provide, it really moves to a different level when given the recommended 400+ ohms recommended. Am currently running mine at 470 via a 1:10 SUT and it really has upped things to the next level. deeper tighter bass, sweeter mids and more extended, detailed treble
As your joint number1 2MB fan :D I love reading your musings and write ups about your experiences with it.
It is a superb cart worthy of pride of place in any system.
Some felt £460 for an mm was too much money but having gone through it's pricier siblings / same dna Quintet Black mc and my current Cadenza Black, the truth is the 2MB is a class act at a bargain price, all things considered ;)
ooh stop it! all this talk about the 2m makes me want to get one again......no i must resit!
it is a bargain price rob,just check out the price of the mp500!
Firebottle
01-07-2018, 12:23
You may need to reappraise my system Oli as the 2M no longer sounds edgy due to the SPOTFIRE cable.:)
Interestingly I have just 'upgraded' to having Spotfire cables between TT and phono stage and it has really lifted things again :D
There is a more vibrant and solid image, more realism and immediacy to the music, it's fantastic.
Interestingly I have just 'upgraded' to having Spotfire cables between TT and phono stage and it has really lifted things again :D
There is a more vibrant and solid image, more realism and immediacy to the music, it's fantastic.
The SPOTFIRE made a significant difference in the same position in my system and was one of the main reasons I have decided to only use the 2M black. This cartridge has lost any edginess or hardness but now sounds very balanced with the same qualities you mentioned " vibrant and solid image, more realism and immediacy to the music". To be honest Alan I see no reason to try anything else as the 2M in my system is faultless, it does however show up the faults of weaknesses in other cartridges!:)
As your joint number1 2MB fan :D I love reading your musings and write ups about your experiences with it.
It is a superb cart worthy of pride of place in any system.
Some felt £460 for an mm was too much money but having gone through it's pricier siblings / same dna Quintet Black mc and my current Cadenza Black, the truth is the 2MB is a class act at a bargain price, all things considered ;)
Haha Rob, nice to have you as a fan:lol: I feel I have been round the block a bit with cartridges but as you may have gathered from my recent thoughts I have decided to stay "Back in Black"!:)
RobbieGong
01-07-2018, 18:45
Haha Rob, nice to have you as a fan:lol: I feel I have been round the block a bit with cartridges but as you may have gathered from my recent thoughts I have decided to stay "Back in Black"!:)
Dont blame you one bit Jim, you have a great system that allows the Black to show its stellar qualities, that continues to bring you untold musical satisfaction.
Why would you change it ? maybe only if you came into funds to pay for one of the far pricier 'house sound' Ortofons cause you'd need to spend a good chunk to genuinely beat the 2MB in my experience :)
Just when I thought I had nailed everything to know about setting up the 2M black I came upon another tip for optimising set up. Due to its shibata stylus profile is a tricky cartridge to align in the groove both from a VTA point of view and in particular azimuth.
Now I know there are all sorts of ways of checking azimuth, some electronic and others manual but as I have not got a Foz meter I have to do this the manual way which envolves sight, sometimes a mirror and sometimes balancing a long this aluminium pipe on top of the headshell. VPI provide this with their tonearms which have a groove in the headshell for this purpose. However using this method to see if the cartridge is perpendicular to the record is tricky.
A method I have just discovered has proven to be more accurate and this relies on listening to the sound of the cartridge in the groove. Basically the shibata profile, if not sitting perpendicular to the groove walls, will give a slight hissing sound mixed in with the music. This is only discernible on quiet passages but is an indication the stylus is not achieving perfect azimuth. I have found adjusting the cartridge and listening is an excellent way of setting up azimuth, you just adjust the cartridge until the hiss goes away. The 2M black should then give you silent backgrounds with perfect channel separation.
One caveat here it that some vinyl has groove noise which is prevalent and so you need to use a well pressed piece of vinyl which does not inherently have this.
RobbieGong
07-10-2018, 19:40
Can only agree 150% on your observations Jim, being the joint most learned 2MB fan in the world along with yourself :)
It was the way I always nailed it in the end, after covering off all the other important set up aspects.
By listening very very intently, whilst carefully dialling in the vta.
Once it was 'in' that 'sweetspot' is exactly as you've discribed - perfect channel seperation and seperation of the individual parts as well as a sense of rightness, calmness and balance to the presentation.
Afterwhich you find that instruments, vocals, the mids etc are wonderful, horns parp lifelike.
Once you've nailed it is when you know what a superb cart the 2MB is.
I remember the first time I nailed mine and really heard it :eek: Thats the time I truly experienced all the positives I'd read about the 2MB being a stellar quality cart, as well as what could be realised in terms of great vinyl replay.
Btw, Thats the Shibata's for you as I found the Quintet Black the same and my current Cadenza Black too. Nothing special until you nail set up and that sweetspot, then :eek: and :D
It is still the best cartridge I have heard in my system Rob and I have tried a fair few.
RobbieGong
07-10-2018, 20:29
It is still the best cartridge I have heard in my system Rob and I have tried a fair few.
Not surprisd Jim.
Hi-fi news did a Cartridge Group Test (£500 High output pick-ups) in March 2011 ( I still have a copy)
Denon DL-160, Goldring 2500, Nagaoka MP-300 (the MP500 should have been chosen probably imo), The Ortofon 2M Black and the Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III
THe 2MB received Outsstanding Product.
Regardless of that it was the reveiwers findings that were so spot on and matched my own experince.
It was as if he'd been in my head and expressed from it. Either that or in my system room during sessions.
I related to everything he wrote. A great reveiw that covers everything we've expressed before, quote
"The schollchildren's vocal interlude later in this track almost literally jumped out from the three-dimensional soundstage produced by the 2M black,
while the regal piano chords sounded ful bodied and startlingly real".
quote
"Deep bass might not have been hugely extended, but it was textured, detailed and extraordinarily clear.
Moreover the parping brass and sublime guitar-picking sounding sensational, instruments described explicitly in their individual acoustic settings".
It was natural recordings of full orchestra that revealed absolutely that the 2MB is a stellar moving-magnet cartridge.
The Dallas SO's Symphonic Dance was reproduced in truly holographic fashion and the description of instrumental timbres - cello, oboes, strings - wonderfully lifelike:
like that delivered by the finest moving-coils.
The clarity and speed of the 2M Black led to a spectacular performance of Varese's 'dificult' Arcana with its dissonant percussive elements, the acoustic space of the Los Angeles concert hall reproduced in three dimensions"
Enough said .... :)
Thanks for posting that up Rob, not read that review. If I was to choose one quality the 2M excelled in its 'live' realism. It reproduces music, vocals and instruments in such a way they sound explicit and tangible. It may not be the best balanced cartridge in some respects and as we have discussed many times it is a bugger to set up for the first time. But I have yet to hear a cartridge that can thrill me every time I use it.
RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 07:38
Thanks for posting that up Rob, not read that review. If I was to choose one quality the 2M excelled in it is its 'live' realism. It reproduces music, vocals and instruments in such a way they sound explicit and tangible. It may not be the best balanced cartridge in some respects and as we have discussed many times it is a bugger to set up for the first time. But I have yet to hear a cartridge that can thrill me every time I use it.
Yes, Indeed and spot on. It is the first cart that 'thrilled' as you say
Dubster68
10-10-2018, 14:58
Its legendary for fiddly set up. Causes many hours of pain but worth every part once its there.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 15:10
It is still the best cartridge I have heard in my system Rob and I have tried a fair few.You'd like this DL-S1 Jim. Head amp rather than SUT and you'd be off to a flier!
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
bbbiker800
12-10-2018, 16:22
I'll risk my arm on this one guys... The 100th Anniversary price is £299 for the black stylus. I'm very tempted. But I have a Rega RP3 with 2MBronze so I just swap. Would I have the devil's job in setting it up in the Rega arm?
Views please?
Ta Richard
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 16:27
No VTA adjustable and no Azimuth makes for a tough setup IMO.
I'll risk my arm on this one guys... The 100th Anniversary price is £299 for the black stylus. I'm very tempted. But I have a Rega RP3 with 2MBronze so I just swap. Would I have the devil's job in setting it up in the Rega arm?
Views please?
Ta Richard
bbbiker800
12-10-2018, 17:18
I have a 2mm shim fitted. It keeps the arm parallel. But can't do much else with the arm.... So maybe a bad idea then?
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 17:22
Not necessarily but you'd have to keep adding and removing the shims to get the VTA right. It may not be far off your current cart in height though but the Black is notorious for being a shit to setup. Some even have the tail down. It's not impossible but difficult due to the arm.
You'd like this DL-S1 Jim. Head amp rather than SUT and you'd be off to a flier!
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
I do like the DL-S1 Oli as I heard it with Marco's Head amp and it was stunning! But there are many reasons why it won't happen in my system just now and I am more than happy with the 2M. When you are up in the top flight world of great cartridges that all do great things in the end you have to go with the one that works best in your system for whatever reason.
Science and technical reasoning go out the window as you know when you hear something right or wrong in your system and you have to go with that personal experience that rings your bell!:)
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 20:32
I do like the DL-S1 Oli as I heard it with Marco's Head amp and it was stunning! But there are many reasons why it won't happen in my system just now and I am more than happy with the 2M. When you are up in the top flight world of great cartridges that all do great things in the end you have to go with the one that works best in your system for whatever reason.
Science and technical reasoning go out the window as you know when you hear something right or wrong in your system and you have to go with that personal experience that rings your bell!:)I know mate. Your system is delightful. Why change!!
After 2 years using the FGS 2M Black I have returned to the standard 2M Black and the most immediate impression is how much more detailed the standard 2M sounds compared to the FGS. I find this strange as I thought the FGS had more detail when I first installed it, maybe it is just the wear on the stylus or it could be the increased level of information I am now getting with the better turntable isolation and support I now have? The FGS stylus is quite a different beast which paints a bigger soundstage with a smoother analogue sound. It excels in timbre and tonal quality and makes the Shibata 2M sound a bit lean and thinner tonaly.
There is more body to the FGS 2M but it does not have the standard 2M hyper detail retrieval. The standard 2M sounds more like digital and "hifi" but nevertheless I like it. As an analogue tool for gaining insight into a recording it is forensic and throws a spotlight into every corner of the recording. It retrieves and conveys ambient reflected information superbly and uncovers small nuances and detail like no other cartridge I have heard.
In my system which uses a large number of valves the 2M is softened slightly and fleshed out tonally so I dont feel I am missing the texture and tone from vocals and instruments but I can see where an all Solid State system with bright speakers this cartridge could be too etched and forward sounding. I am enjoying its insight and dynamic ability as much now as when I first had one in my system 6 years ago but having lived with the FGS version for 2 years I have to decide if I should get this cartridge retipped again or live with a standard 2M. :scratch:
Both are great but are quite different beasts.
brian2957
24-03-2021, 20:33
I think you should investigate MC cartridges :D
Indeed I should give them another chance!
There was a black one for sale on here that I thought you would like?
There was a black one for sale on here that I thought you would like?
I saw that one Kev, I think it was an Ortofon Quintet black, good price too.
Yes. A good choice for dipping your toe in the water.
Indeed I should give them another chance!
Hi Jim,
If you do decide to give MCs another blast, you might like a high-output one, straight into the MM stage of your Croft, thus negating the use for any head amps or SUTs, complicating matters! Just a thought...
I think a Denon DL-110 would work superbly on your arm (with the VPI) and produce a sound you'd greatly enjoy, plus it's very well priced [excellent SPPV]:)
See here: https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dl110-moving-coil-cartridge?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsoCZtb7x7wIVeAWiAx0tZw rsEAAYAiAAEgL4EfD_BwE
Marco.
Jac Hawk
09-04-2021, 18:06
Hi Jim,
If you do decide to give MCs another blast, you might like a high-output one, straight into the MM stage of your Croft, thus negating the use for any head amps or SUTs, complicating matters! Just a thought...
I think a Denon DL-110 would work superbly on your arm (with the VPI) and produce a sound you'd greatly enjoy, plus it's very well priced [excellent SPPV]:)
See here: https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dl110-moving-coil-cartridge?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsoCZtb7x7wIVeAWiAx0tZw rsEAAYAiAAEgL4EfD_BwE
Marco.
Do Denon pay you any commission for your work mate :eyebrows::lol:
:lol:
Erm, unfortunately no... They do, however, make exceedingly good cakes, oh sorry, I mean cartridges!:D:eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi Jim,
If you do decide to give MCs another blast, you might like a high-output one, straight into the MM stage of your Croft, thus negating the use for any head amps or SUTs, complicating matters! Just a thought...
I think a Denon DL-110 would work superbly on your arm (with the VPI) and produce a sound you'd greatly enjoy, plus it's very well priced [excellent SPPV]:)
See here: https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dl110-moving-coil-cartridge?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsoCZtb7x7wIVeAWiAx0tZw rsEAAYAiAAEgL4EfD_BwE
Marco.
Thanks for the heads up on that cartridge Marco. Indeed I have been pondering some high output MC cartridges as the Croft does have a hefty amount of gain and would probably be OK. There are a number of candidates including a Hana EH /SH ,Sumiko Blue point and Dynavector 10x5 MK2 but had not considered the Denon 110.
No worries, mate. I honestly do think the high-output route, with MCs, is the one to go down in your system and also to remove the whole matching ball ache with SUTs, etc, you get with the low-output route.
All the cartridges you mention are good in their own way (offer different 'flavours'), but the 110's a great all-rounder and a fun cartridge to listen to with all sorts of music. It'll give you that 'open and airy' MC sound, but with the 'drive and balls' of a good MM.
Trust me, it makes sense:)
Marco.
but if jimbo's main cartridge is a 2m black he's going to be very disapointed by the denon 110.
I personally think he would be better off with a Hana MH, or something like a Dynavector DV20X2-H.
Yes, they are more expensive, but a 110 is almost a step down from what he has.
I think a loan of an MH will satisfy Jimbo’s curiosity.
To be honest I think to beat the 2M Black I should be aiming higher with an MC cartridge as lower end cartidges have left me uninspired. I am not saying they were not good but just did not perform better than the 2M especially my FGS version. One cartridge that nearly convinced me was the Ortofon Kontrapunkt B and certainly a couple of dynavectors especially the te kaitora but at £3500 this sort of MC is way out of my price range.
I think I simply have to bite the bullet and commit to something like a Hana ML or maybe a top end Audio Technica but there are quite a few others I am considering including an EMT HSD 006 amongst others. This would definitely necessitate an MC phono stage or a very specific SUT both of which I am researching currently.
My heart tells me to go for an MC cartridge I think will I will like and then get a SUT specifically built to give the cartidge the required amount of step up required to enable me to continue using the Croft. I have found a company that will do this and has a very good reputation for very high quality sound from their SUTs.
Sounds like a plan. Is it not possible to borrow something like an MH first though?
They are supposed to be very good.
Sounds like a plan. Is it not possible to borrow something like an MH first though?
They are supposed to be very good.
Is that a Hana MH Kev?
From what I have read though, HOMC may not be quite as good as LOMC.
but if jimbo's main cartridge is a 2m black he's going to be very disapointed by the denon 110.
Not necessarily. It depends how you listen to music, the kind of music you like, and the sonic presentation you prefer.
Like most Denon cartridges, sonically, they punch WAY above their price point, so you can't really judge it as a £300 cartridge, as in some areas it'll outperform ones costing double (or more). Much will depend on how successfully you get the most out of it, based on what you use it with.
Unlike some others here, I'm not a fan of Ortofon's 2M range of MMs, and that includes the Black. I admire what it does in a hi-fi sense, but musically, it leaves me cold, although I can understand in Jim's system, with the T/T and arm he uses (which has a beautifully fluid and easy-going sound) and the valve amplification, that effect will be largely ameliorated.
Therefore, in summary, it just depends on what he's looking for and how he wants to go about achieving it, but it would be churlish to assume that more expensive automatically equals better, as that's not how it works with cartridges:)
Marco.
My heart tells me to go for an MC cartridge I think will I will like and then get a SUT specifically built to give the cartidge the required amount of step up required to enable me to continue using the Croft. I have found a company that will do this and has a very good reputation for very high quality sound from their SUTs.
^^ Exactly this ^^
Yup, and (vast experience), using a similar phono stage/preamp tells me it's by far the best way, but you need to get it *right*, and that means synergy between the gain of the Croft's MM stage and that of the SUT, as much as matching the SUT to the partnering cartridge.
Another important consideration is that you're using a unipivot arm, which has a different type of sonic signature to gimballed arms, and mass-wise can only optimise MC cartridges of appropriate compliance (i.e. low-compliance types aren't really suitable and won't give of their best).
Something else to think about too, Jim, is going the MC head amp route, as opposed to SUTs. I've 'been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt' with SUTs, and with a Croft MM phono stage, to my ears, especially in a system like yours which has no harsh edges (and so the sound doesn't need 'taming' in any way), head amps give a much punchier and more dynamic sound than certainly any SUT I've heard so far - and you can match them to a partnering MC cartridge much easier, too.
Marco.
Therefore, in summary, it just depends on what he's looking for and how he wants to go about achieving it, but it would be churlish to assume that more expensive automatically equals better, as that's not how it works with cartridges:)
Marco.
absolutely agree but in my opinion and thats all it is, is based on ownership of both cartridges and also a denon 160,nice as they are they just dont compare to the 2m black.
Sure, Jamie, that's your valid opinion, based on your tastes, which I'm sure many will agree with, and rightly so:)
Generally I just don't get on with the voicing of 95% of modern cartridges, and that includes those from Ortofon.
Marco.
Not necessarily. It depends how you listen to music, the kind of music you like, and the sonic presentation you prefer.
Like most Denon cartridges, sonically, they punch WAY above their price point, so you can't really judge it as a £300 cartridge, as in some areas it'll outperform ones costing double (or more). Much will depend on how successfully you get the most out of it, based on what you use it with.
Unlike some others here, I'm not a fan of Ortofon's 2M range of MMs, and that includes the Black. I admire what it does in a hi-fi sense, but musically, it leaves me cold, although I can understand in Jim's system, with the T/T and arm he uses (which has a beautifully fluid and easy-going sound) and the valve amplification, that effect will be largely ameliorated.
Therefore, in summary, it just depends on what he's looking for and how he wants to go about achieving it, but it would be churlish to assume that more expensive automatically equals better, as that's not how it works with cartridges:)
Marco.
I hear what you are saying, but the Hana punch way above their price point.
One review said it is the best £3k to £4K cartridge you can get for £1k. My idea behind borrowing the MH was to see if Jimbo likes the tone of the cartridge, as this seems to be one of the main things he looks for in music playback. If not he can forget the Hanas and look elsewhere.
However, as he likes the 2M Black, he may be better sticking with the Ortofon house sound?
I can't comment on Hana, as I haven't heard any of their cartridges, and so I don't discuss what I don't know. It may well be a viable option for Jim, but I'm not qualified to comment.
However, just because he likes the 2M Black (in his system) doesn't necessarily mean he might not like something else even more, and yes of course that could mean an Ortofon MC, if he likes the Ortofon 'house sound':)
In my opinion and experience though, there are FAR better cartridge manufacturers out there, producing designs that are much more musically rewarding.
Marco.
I am not particularly inclined towards Ortofon and have an open mind in that respect but the 2M does give me the ballsy "live" sound I like and covers pretty well the rest of the music spectrum however I do feel it can sometimes verge on the thin analytical side and I get that aspect about this cartridge.
I am really looking for the decisive clarity of a 2M black but with a bit more nuance and air that I believe good MC cartridges can deliver. I like a big soundstage with good depth and a feeling the cartridge can connect you with the performer in a realistic manner and a presentation that gives a slightly fuller meaty sound. The 2M has a lazer like clarity but tonally it can be a bit lacking in the mid lower bass in its eagerness to give you detail and resolution.
That is why I moved on to the FGS stylus I have in the 2M however this option has become expensive and difficult because of the customs situation with Europe so for the time being it is not a consideration. Besides which I fancy a change and am therefore considering options with MC cartridges.
Its a tricky item to sort , like speakers they all have their pros and cons and inevitably I feel I will have to compromise somewhere.
As you say Marco there are plenty of options out there but it is an expensive area to dabble in if you get it wrong so in some ways I am looking for a "safe bet"!:)
I feel your pain in trying to select an MC cartridge, especially when you can’t get to shows or dealers to audition a few. That is why I ended up buying one I have heard, and like. The ML was an interesting proposition, but what if I don’t like it?
Jamie mentioned that Guy at Puresound may lend a Hana out. It may be worth contacting him to see if he has an MH.
I had an SL, and it is a good cartridge, but not massively different to a 2MB, IMHO.
I’m the same as Marco on Ortofon, yeah they let you hear everything that your system can do, but for me I just don’t hear the music from them. Funnily enough it’s the same with Zyx, no toe tapping there either.
Hana ML does this for me, and I’m pretty sure every review has said it’s a significant step up from the SL, don’t buy an SL it’ll only disappoint and you’d end up at an ML soon after lol.
PS: be patient about an ML, I picked mine up with very low hours at less than retail [emoji6]
Yes the ML does appeal having read so many good words about it.
Wow, five years have flipped past since I started this post and nothing has come along to challenge the 2M Black in my system. I have heard a lot of gear since I first put this system together and although some of it was OK nothing stood out as being better, just different. I think Ortofon got this cartridge bang on as they have decided not to replace it either in the 10 years since it was released and have not released any MM to better it.
It may not be everyones taste but for those of us who like it it is a spectacular cartridge which for me has been a rock solid key component in my system. I wonder how long it will be before Ortofon retire this beauty and replace it with the next generation of MM cartridges?:hmm:
the black gets a good rep although supposed to be difficult to set up..
the black gets a good rep although supposed to be difficult to set up..
I think some folk have found it difficult to set up but worth the effort because once nailed it sounds spectacular.
It is a fairly truthful/revealing cartridge which has the ability to let you know what is there in the recording in great detail and also lets you know if the recording has been mastered and produced well.
I have obviously written extensively about this cartridge for many years as it has been my daily driver but for me the one outstanding feature it delivers is its uncanny ability to deliver a very real, transparent performance of instruments and vocalists.
Wakefield Turntables
01-09-2022, 10:26
Jim, nice to see an old thread back on track. Any ortofon "Black" cartridge is a bugger to set-up even with something like a SME-V which makes setting up any cartridge a doddle (except a Ortofon Black)!! I've just started getting back into MM's again, tell me Jim, what other MM's have you tried against the 2M? I've started messing around with high-compliance carts again with my Alphason HR100's, it's great fun. I'm sure Ortofon will replace the 2M at some point but that means probably also replacing the Cadenza Black range as well?
Jim, nice to see an old thread back on track. Any ortofon "Black" cartridge is a bugger to set-up even with something like a SME-V which makes setting up any cartridge a doddle (except a Ortofon Black)!! I've just started getting back into MM's again, tell me Jim, what other MM's have you tried against the 2M? I've started messing around with high-compliance carts again with my Alphason HR100's, it's great fun. I'm sure Ortofon will replace the 2M at some point but that means probably also replacing the Cadenza Black range as well?
Nice to see you on here Andy. Well to be honest the only cartridge that came any where near the 2M Black was the Shure M55 with the Jico stylus ( Boron cantilever). This was close and I regret selling it. Had an ADC XLM Mkii improved cartridge that was very good and some way toward 2M but hard to get good examples now -try maybe Japan. Audio Technica all a bit bright and thin and Nagaoka MP500 full er sound but not as detailed.
Wakefield Turntables
01-09-2022, 11:29
Funnily enough I've been using the Shure SC35C + JICO boron, very, very good. I've also re-ordered a SAS/B for the M55 which I intend to re-instate. I do have a ADC cartridge in my spares box, not Shure (sorry couldn't resist) which one it is, I agree with your observations about AT carts, yep, very bright. Never heard a Nag. I might dig the ADC out and see what I've got.
Funnily enough I've been using the Shure SC35C + JICO boron, very, very good. I've also re-ordered a SAS/B for the M55 which I intend to re-instate. I do have a ADC cartridge in my spares box, not Shure (sorry couldn't resist) which one it is, I agree with your observations about AT carts, yep, very bright. Never heard a Nag. I might dig the ADC out and see what I've got.
Last time I looked Jico had stopped producing SAS stylus for M55 but will take a look as they may have started again?
used to have the m55/jico.. was very decent. oddly tho i ended up preferring a nos m55 stylus
Wakefield Turntables
01-09-2022, 12:45
You can use the M44e stylus instead. Shure claims that they are interchangable with the M55e body on their website.
You can use the M44e stylus instead. Shure claims that they are interchangable with the M55e body on their website.
Ah OK will take another look. Couldn't see any M44 SAS on their site except a NUDE stylus that would fit?
I have yet to heat an AT cart that is thin and bright?
Maybe there is a compatibility issue in your system?
I had the 2M Black as you know, and sold it as I preferred the AT150mlx, which I still have. I have also added a AT20SS since, which I would not have done if it was thin and bright.
My other suggestion would be to buy a couple of spare styli for the 2MB while they are still available, or keep your eyes peeled for news from Ortofon regarding discontinuing it, and get a couple then. That should keep you happy for a few years.
I have yet to heat an AT cart that is thin and bright?
Maybe there is a compatibility issue in your system?
I had the 2M Black as you know, and sold it as I preferred the AT150mlx, which I still have. I have also added a AT20SS since, which I would not have done if it was thin and bright.
My other suggestion would be to buy a couple of spare styli for the 2MB while they are still available, or keep your eyes peeled for news from Ortofon regarding discontinuing it, and get a couple then. That should keep you happy for a few years.
Yes new stylus is definitely on the menu, this will be my 4th! I get 1500-2000 hrs out of each one as I keep vinyl and stylus scrupiously clean. I know some folk have said the 2M sounds a bit lean but in my system I get a very full fat sound, bass is fantastic, deep, powerful and controlled.
Very tough trying to improve on the 2M black as like you I have been round the block many times.
Wakefield Turntables
02-09-2022, 07:13
I have yet to heat an AT cart that is thin and bright?
Maybe there is a compatibility issue in your system?
This could be what I was experiencing. The top end sounded extremely strident when I tried it on a SME V.
walpurgis
02-09-2022, 07:27
Over the years I tried several non-MC Audio Technica cartridges and although I don't recall any specific characteristics that were annoying or inadequate, none of them stayed long. I just didn't enjoy what they did.
Mind you, I could say the same about Nagaoka.
This could be what I was experiencing. The top end sounded extremely strident when I tried it on a SME V.
Its a regular observation I feel with AT cartridges.
Jac Hawk
02-09-2022, 13:35
Over the years I tried several non-MC Audio Technica cartridges and although I don't recall any specific characteristics that were annoying or inadequate, none of them stayed long. I just didn't enjoy what they did.
Mind you, I could say the same about Nagaoka.
Different strokes for different folks, i got a mate of mine a VM750SH and it sounds superb.
oceanobsession
02-09-2022, 21:10
Ive , been very close to purchasing a 2m black , but after hearing a 2m blue which sounded good , but i could not live with the surface noise that come from it , even the cadenza blue is noisy in the grove , hana ml is so quiet in comparison
Wakefield Turntables
02-09-2022, 21:30
Ive , been very close to purchasing a 2m black , but after hearing a 2m blue which sounded good , but i could not live with the surface noise that come from it , even the cadenza blue is noisy in the grove , hana ml is so quiet in comparison
Yes, one of the more negative things about owning one of these carts they can be noise heavy.
Not tempted by the "2M Black LVB 250" at around €1k?
Not tempted by the "2M Black LVB 250" at around €1k?
I have read reviews that suggest it only gives you a smidgin more performance - boron cantilever vs aluminium although this difference I appreciate can make a significant improvement.
karma1967
03-09-2022, 07:40
hi jimbo, i liked my 2m black when i had one,i mounted it on an alphasom hr100.,if i went mm again i'd have another.
hi jimbo, i liked my 2m black when i had one,i mounted it on an alphasom hr100.,if i went mm again i'd have another.
Its a great cartridge Jamie as you know and still a difficult MM to improve on.
I think the other “high end” alternatives just give a different flavour, but I would be hard pushed to state which was the “best” as it is system/personal taste dependant.
My all time favourite “MM/MI” is the Cartridge Man Music Maker Classic, but they are no longer available, and we’re considerably more expensive than the 2MB, without the replaceable stylus assembly.
I think the other “high end” alternatives just give a different flavour, but I would be hard pushed to state which was the “best” as it is system/personal taste dependant.
My all time favourite “MM/MI” is the Cartridge Man Music Maker Classic, but they are no longer available, and we’re considerably more expensive than the 2MB, without the replaceable stylus assembly.
That is the same conclusion I have come too. Not heard the Cartridge Man Music Maker Classic.
Are you still using a Hana MC?
No. got rid of the Hana a while ago.
I have a DV XX2 Mk2 now.
No. got rid of the Hana a while ago.
I have a DV XX2 Mk2 now.
Ahh interesting I heard a range of Dynavectors sometime back and really liked the Te Kaitora Rua but even with a discount it would have been over £2500! Beautiful rendition of top end information with notes floating in space and very present. Etheral and utterly transparent. Not got the balls of a 2M though!:)
My mate has a DRT XV-1s strapped to his VPI Prime Scout and it is a killer cartridge but eye watering price.
I don’t think you will find that the XX2 lacks balls.
It may be slightly warmer than the 2MB, but it has a good dynamic sound. I have stopped looking for another MC.
If I was buying new, I would try and find an AT Art9, or more likely the Hana ML.
It is quite interesting that in this thread that the AT sound is described as having a strident treble. One of the common criticisms of the 2MB is that is sounds thin. It just goes to show that you need to try these things for yourself, and see how it gels with your system and ears.
So many variables to contend with when integrating a cartridge with a system. Tonearm/turntable, phono stage, cables, amplification,speakers....room.... etc , in fact everything can have an influence on how these little electrical generators sound.
My 2M certainly does not sound thin in my system. I have had cartridges that actually sound too fat!:)
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2022, 16:03
hi jimbo, i liked my 2m black when i had one,i mounted it on an alphasom hr100.,if i went mm again i'd have another.
This is my current tonearm with my latest MM adventures, a bit limited being a low mass tonearm at 9-11g (I think), but very very good when properly matched with a high compliance MM + JICO stylus (or equivalent). Never tried a 2M black however.
This is my current tonearm with my latest MM adventures, a bit limited being a low mass tonearm at 9-11g (I think), but very very good when properly matched with a high compliance MM + JICO stylus (or equivalent). Never tried a 2M black however.
A 2M Black could be made available if you haven't tried one.;)
Wakefield Turntables
04-09-2022, 14:47
Jim, I've just been checking over the compliance of the 2MB with my Alphason HR100 and it appears to be an extremely good match! Have a look at this -->
http://korfaudio.com/calculator a very useful webpage to keep stored away. My Tonearm effective mass is 9-11g , cartridge weight 7g, weight on ancilleries 3g, compliance of 2MB is 22. It all measures well into the green. So, yep, I'd love to have a go!
Jim, I've just been checking over the compliance of the 2MB with my Alphason HR100 and it appears to be an extremely good match! Have a look at this -->
http://korfaudio.com/calculator a very useful webpage to keep stored away. My Tonearm effective mass is 9-11g , cartridge weight 7g, weight on ancilleries 3g, compliance of 2MB is 22. It all measures well into the green. So, yep, I'd love to have a go!
Andy thats great, send me a PM with your address and I will get a 2M Black up to you.
Wakefield Turntables
04-09-2022, 16:29
OK I've done that, see your PM's, I've just realised I'm going to have to remove my loading plugs out of mt EAR 834 clone, my M55E likes to see 450-500 pf, the 2MB likes to see 150-300pf. I've just noticed that it's coils are silver plated copper, might be interesting to see if it sounds like any Nordost cabling (I have a TYR tonearm cable) that has a very specific sound. I've tried listening to MC's with gold plated copper and didn't really get on with them.
Wakefield Turntables
04-09-2022, 16:31
Forgot to say an extremely big thanks for the very generous offer.
Forgot to say an extremely big thanks for the very generous offer.
Hope it works in your system. As you like some of the cartridges I have had ( M55 SAS JICO stylus) and they have worked for you then I think the 2M may be interesting. I will go and check my PM.
Have you strapped the 2M Black on yet Andy?
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2022, 18:39
Not yet mate, just finished work! It's probably going to be Friday when I get chance to do some decent listening. I'll probably strap it in on Thursday and then spend some of Fri/Sat listening and then hopefully good session on Sunday. I'm at a gig on Friday night so I'll miss several hours then 8-<
Not yet mate, just finished work! It's probably going to be Friday when I get chance to do some decent listening. I'll probably strap it in on Thursday and then spend some of Fri/Sat listening and then hopefully good session on Sunday. I'm at a gig on Friday night so I'll miss several hours then 8-<
No problem, glad it got there safe. Keep it for as long as you need to mate, there is no rush to get it back to me. You might need to fiddle with it a bit till you get it sounding just right.
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2022, 19:41
Brilliant! Are you going to be using your second system for Vinyl spinning duties?
Brilliant! Are you going to be using your second system for Vinyl spinning duties?
No, still using VPI and Croft. I have a couple more 2M blacks so I will not be missing it!:)
Wakefield Turntables
09-09-2022, 16:47
It's strapped in, Baerweld tracking, tracking 1.4g Not messed around with VTA yet. What do you track Jim?
I track at 1.6 and start off level VTA then drop the arm a little so back end of cartridge slightly down but start level and see what you think.
Wakefield Turntables
09-09-2022, 17:22
That's pretty much what I've done, I've set up a few of these "black" carts now and realised setting the back end down a smidge works well. Quite funny listening to a pair of JR149's, surprised at what these little speakers can pump out. Sounds good so far and that's without twiddling around, I've only played a couple of sides, no critical listening yet.
That one still sounds very good even though it has done about 800 hours.
Wakefield Turntables
11-09-2022, 18:50
Listening is quite favourable. It seems to be pulling more out of the grooves than a SC35C with JICO SAS/B stylus. The 2MB is up against some stiff competetion, I now have my M55e fitted with a SAS/B cantilever which I haven't tried. So, 3 MM's at the moment to evaluate!! 8=> What are your thoughts regards M55E JICO SAS/B and the 2MB, didn't you do a comparison at some point?
The M55 SAS Jico stylus was far quieter in the groove and very good top end. However the SAS stylus does not have the big ballsy sound of the standard Shure M55 stylus. The 2M Black was more alive and dynamic, transparency and detail greater. If it’s in those grooves the 2M will find it! Tonal quality can be very good with the 2M and it does tell you very quickly the quality of the recording you are listening too. The M55 SAS Jico is more forgiving and an easier listen in some respects.
Wakefield Turntables
11-09-2022, 19:59
The M55 SAS Jico stylus was far quieter in the groove and very good top end. However the SAS stylus does not have the big ballsy sound of the standard Shure M55 stylus. The 2M Black was more alive and dynamic, transparency and detail greater. If it’s in those grooves the 2M will find it! Tonal quality can be very good with the 2M and it does tell you very quickly the quality of the recording you are listening too. The M55 SAS Jico is more forgiving and an easier listen in some respects.
Thanks. I'll take note of what you've said. I'm building a new tonearm cable so the 2M is silent at the mo....... 8-(
It is quite sensitive to capacitance so good to get a cable that suits? Are you using it the the Alphason?
Wakefield Turntables
11-09-2022, 20:20
It is quite sensitive to capacitance so good to get a cable that suits? Are you using it the the Alphason?
Yes, I've already removed the loading plugs for the M55E and noticed a nice difference, I've not worked out the Capacitance yet with the new tonearm cable.
How are you getting on with the 2M Black Andrew?
I would love to compare one with either my AT20SLa (Can be fitted with the SLA or SS stylus assembly) or my Technics EPC-U205 with a Jico SAS/B or SAS/S.
Both will offer a different flavour compared to the 2MB, and styli are still available for both, and are probably cheaper than the 2MB replacements.
Wakefield Turntables
14-09-2022, 20:22
Hi Kevin, I'm really liking the 2M Black, I have one on loan from Jim and I can keep it for a while yet :eek:. I have to be completely honest. I have had the 2MB strapped in and was blown away by its ability to dig out detail. Things just seem to leap out when using the 2MB over the SC35C + JICO SAS/B stylus. The SC35C is an excellent combo and one I'd quite happily live with if I was restricted to vintage MM's. But, I have strapped in my old steed the Shure M55E with M447x+JICO SAS/B stylus, I have a feeling that this is going to be the worst out of the three that I have to test. So, my thoughts are to put some hours on the M55e and the make some copious notes, then go up the ladder, the SC35C, then the 2MB. I'll make notes and compare. Should take a while, I think I already know the outcome but we shall see!! The Technics EPC-U205 is indeed venerable, never tried one, maybe one for the bucket list.
The 2MB certainly does not lack in detail, that is sure.
For me, it was too much like listening to a CD. I am tempted to try one, as the only thing that remains the same in my system is the TT. Everything else has changed, so there is a chance the 2MB would perform better for me now.
The 2MB certainly does not lack in detail, that is sure.
For me, it was too much like listening to a CD. I am tempted to try one, as the only thing that remains the same in my system is the TT. Everything else has changed, so there is a chance the 2MB would perform better for me now.
I would say Kevin that the 2M is quite sensitive to system components and can be influenced very much by equipment downstream. I have heard it with the chip amp you are using but not your other components. I prefer valve phono stages with the 2M which maybe an option you have?
If it were not for the nightmare customs/duties etc situation now between our two countries I would send you out a 2M black to try but unfortunately I have given up importing or exporting anything into Europe now as I have had so many issues.
If you still play a fair amount of vinyl however I would definitely recommend you try the 2M again in your current system.
Jimbo, I have a Big bottle 3 phono stage now. I think I had a Graham Slee Reflex M at the time of owning a 2MB. I still have access to the Reflex M now, as well as a few other Slee phono stages.
The customs situation stops me from offering to send my EPC-205 and AT20SLa across, to make it an interesting "group test". I preferred the EPC-205 to the M55/Jico SAS/B combination I had.
It would have been interesting to see what you thought of the AT20SLa / SS as it is a top notch cartridge i(n my opinion).
Jimbo, I have a Big bottle 3 phono stage now. I think I had a Graham Slee Reflex M at the time of owning a 2MB. I still have access to the Reflex M now, as well as a few other Slee phono stages.
The customs situation stops me from offering to send my EPC-205 and AT20SLa across, to make it an interesting "group test". I preferred the EPC-205 to the M55/Jico SAS/B combination I had.
It would have been interesting to see what you thought of the AT20SLa / SS as it is a top notch cartridge i(n my opinion).
Sad European situation is what it is. I have heard good things about the EPC-205. I might look out for one to try one day.
Ideally, you need the Mk III.
Do not pay silly money for one with an original stylus, as the TTDD (Technics Temperature Defence Damper) is very likely to be dead.
Just had a quick look. They are going for silly money.
Yikes they are expensive!
Wakefield Turntables
15-09-2022, 17:32
Well that Technics MM has been moved off the bucket list!!!!!!
Wakefield Turntables
15-09-2022, 17:33
Jimbo, I have a Big bottle 3 phono stage now. I think I had a Graham Slee Reflex M at the time of owning a 2MB. I still have access to the Reflex M now, as well as a few other Slee phono stages.
The customs situation stops me from offering to send my EPC-205 and AT20SLa across, to make it an interesting "group test". I preferred the EPC-205 to the M55/Jico SAS/B combination I had.
It would have been interesting to see what you thought of the AT20SLa / SS as it is a top notch cartridge i(n my opinion).
Brexit is a real bugger!
Have a look at HiFi shark. There are a few in Germany at a sensible price.
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