View Full Version : POLL: EU - stay or go?
Cammers has come back from Europe with even less than could have been expected. In fact the square root of sweet FA, So, time to have a poll. If the referendum was tomorrow how would you vote?
Should never have gone into it as it is.... It was supposed to be an open trade route note a German/French state run from Brussels
Out - who needs all that meddlesome human rights and employment legislation when you have a government as benevolent and trustworthy as ours.:rolleyes:
That would be the same government that is strongly urging us to stay in the EU? The vast majority of politicians want us to stay in. All the more reason to vote to get out.
Spectral Morn
20-02-2016, 14:50
Out, we put in much more than we get out. Problem is we wont be allowed to vote leave. Like what happened in Ireland we will be forced to vote again until the EU gets a stay majority.
Haselsh1
20-02-2016, 16:01
Get the feck out and tell 'em where to ram it :eyebrows:
hifi_dave
20-02-2016, 16:22
Out ASAP.
It makes my blood boil that the Prime Minister of the UK has to beg and plead for tiny concessions. We should be able to do the best for us, not what best suits the European gravy train.
Could you please add a 'couldn't care less' option to the poll? ;)
Marco.
Surprised you couldn't care less Marco. Surely no better way to hurt the 'chinless wonders' of Westminster than to cut them off from one of their prime gravy trains?
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 16:49
Out - who needs all that meddlesome human rights and employment legislation when you have a government as benevolent and trustworthy as ours.:rolleyes:
Indeed Rich! I was rather shocked and disappointed that even on here it's hugely pro leave so far :rolleyes:
But the majority of Conservative MP want to stay in, including Cameron and Osbourne. Which means we have to keep the EU Human rights and Employment legislation. If they wanted to get rid of it they would be supporting the leave campaign. Logical fail.
But the majority of Conservative MP want to stay in, including Cameron and Osbourne. Which means we have to keep the EU Human rights and Employment legislation. If they wanted to get rid of it they would be supporting the leave campaign. Logical fail.
They're masters of deception Macca.
Don't think they wouldn't use Brexit as a further excuse to unravel all the legislation they find inconvenient.
Just the same way they pretend to be worried by UKIP in the last election when a vote splitter was was central office wanted all along.
Never trust a Tory.
Indeed Rich! I was rather shocked and disappointed that even on here it's hugely pro leave so far :rolleyes:
On a forum comprised predominantly by middle aged, often middle class men, I'm not surprised at all.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 17:21
It horrifies me that something as important as this, and so vastly complex that unless you have phd's in both economics and international affairs you probably aren't in any position to hold a rational opinion on it, will be almost entirely decided by the knee jerk emotional reactions of Little Englanders and the Alf Garnet brigade :eek::steam:
Whenever I see this debated, 95% of comment and reaction is to do with one thing: Immigration. Johnny foreigner coming over 'ere... There is SO much more to this than just that!
The other 5%, which makes me laugh... is the sovereignty and "our country, our laws" lot! Yeah 'cos as soon as we're out Cameron and Osbourne are going to be falling over themselves to do what YOU want in YOUR neighbourhood etc LOL! They'd never dream of making things worse for you and even cushier for their pals in The City once no longer "held back" by EU laws now would they? There goes another flying pig... zoom!
They're masters of deception Macca.
Don't think they wouldn't use Brexit as a further excuse to unravel all the legislation they find inconvenient.
Just the same way they pretend to be worried by UKIP in the last election when a vote splitter was was central office wanted all along.
Never trust a Tory.
So you are saying that they all secretly want Brexit but are just pretending not to? A sophisticated strategy and I can't see how it works myself.
As for them being masters of deception ho ho. They are bloody useless. Except at lining their own pockets.
I'm not middle class or middle aged either but I suspect given time that 'stay' will come out ahead. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't.
Surprised you couldn't care less Marco. Surely no better way to hurt the 'chinless wonders' of Westminster than to cut them off from one of their prime gravy trains?
You know me, Martin, and we've been here before, politics (in general) just bores the pants off of me, so I'm completely apathetic towards the subject in question. I just can't get 'het up' about it, the way so many folks do.
I just live my life day to day, take what comes and do my own thing, trying my best to put factors in place (in essence build my own 'little island') that largely divorces me from this kind of stuff.
If you're 'into' it all though, fill your boots :)
Marco.
Sure, but I don't really see this as 'politics'. It is a referendum, one man one vote; and the outcome will heavily influence the future of this country, far more so than a General Election. It is a pretty big deal.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 18:20
I don't see how it could be much more political!!
Semantics, but my point is the vast majority of politicians of all parties want to stay in. So it's not a party political matter.
Leaving would be absolutely barmy bonkers ..... watching the island slowly submerge in a sea of even greater debt is not my idea of 'sovereignty', just pig headed lunacy based on some anachronistic and warped fantasy of 'Great Britain'. Utter nonsense of the first order.
Ian Duncan Smith wants out... That's all you need to know right there.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 18:40
Semantics, but my point is the vast majority of politicians of all parties want to stay in. So it's not a party political matter.
It is hugely a case of Right wing = Out, Left wing = In
As a socialist and Labour voter I'm obviously in the latter camp. At least the In people seem to be wanting to remain for a myriad of perfectly good reasons, such as those expressed by mikmas, whereas the Out contingent seem to base their case about 90% on not wanting "bloody foreigners over 'ere, especially if there's a dusky hue to their skin"
Spectral Morn
20-02-2016, 18:43
http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-eu-parliament/
It's not always that simple, but I take your point. I'm a Labour Party member but I will vote to leave. I'm not sure how many others from the left will do the same.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 18:46
It's not always that simple, but I take your point. I'm a Labour Party member but I will vote to leave. I'm not sure how many others from the left will do the same.
That would be interesting to know!
Northumberland coast eh Andy? Bedlington here...
Sure, but I don't really see this as 'politics'. It is a referendum, one man one vote; and the outcome will heavily influence the future of this country, far more so than a General Election. It is a pretty big deal.
It's only a "pretty big deal" if your life circumstances make it so.
In reality, how much difference will the outcome of this referendum make to my day to day life in North Wales, within the timescale I intend to continue living in the UK? And that is only whilst my 83-year old father remains alive, so we can look after him, after which we're off to France or Italy to enjoy our retirement, whilst we're still young enough to do so!
Therefore, perhaps I should be looking at this from a French or Italian perspective? ;)
Marco.
It's only a "pretty big deal" if your life circumstances makes it so.
In reality, how much difference will the outcome of this referendum make to my day to day life in North Wales, within the timescale I intend to continue living in the UK? And that is only whilst my 83-year old dad remains alive, so we can look after him, after which we're off to France or Italy, to enjoy our retirement, whilst we're still young enough to do so!
Therefore, perhaps I should be looking at this from a French or Italian perspective? ;)
Marco.
Well one aspect of the UK leaving would possibly be that it would not be as easy as it is now for a British person to just go and live in an EU country. You'd still be able to, just won't be as straightforward as it is now. So in that respect this could have a direct effect on your life. Unless you also have Italian nationality?
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 19:09
Well one aspect of the UK leaving would possibly be that it would not be as easy as it is now for a British person to just go and live in an EU country. You'd still be able to, just won't be as straightforward as it is now. So in that respect this could have a direct effect on your life. Unless you also have Italian nationality?
I think he has dual Scottish nationality.... if we leave probably the U.K will split and Marco will be able to move abroad pretty easy :eyebrows: It is a fairly big deal!
walpurgis
20-02-2016, 19:20
Well one aspect of the UK leaving would possibly be that it would not be as easy as it is now for a British person to just go and live in an EU country. You'd still be able to, just won't be as straightforward as it is now. So in that respect this could have a direct effect on your life. Unless you also have Italian nationality?
I'll just pretend to be Syrian and go and live anywhere I damn well like. :eek:
Well one aspect of the UK leaving would possibly be that it would not be as easy as it is now for a British person to just go and live in an EU country. You'd still be able to, just won't be as straightforward as it is now. So in that respect this could have a direct effect on your life. Unless you also have Italian nationality?
Yes, my dad and I have dual nationality, and we also own property in Italy. What you have to remember is that, although I was born in Scotland (and love Scotland and the Scottish people), and also enjoy living in the UK, I don't 'feel' British - never have done and never will do - simply because I'm not, really: my blood is Italian, and my family tree, going back many generations is 100% Italian.
I live my life as an Italian, and my whole world outlook is based upon that culture, which is why I don't get 'all excited' about British matters, as much as genuine Brits - and that's fine, as they're entitled and justified to do so.
If I were pushed to vote on your poll, I'd probably vote for 'Stay', as ultimately I'm more European than British :)
Please note, however, that the above answer is not based upon any real understanding of the politics, as I don't follow it!
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 19:35
Yes, my dad and I have dual nationality, and we own property in Italy. What you have to remember is that, although I was born in Scotland (and love Scotland and the Scottish people), and also enjoy living in the UK, I don't 'feel' British - never have done and never will do - simply because I'm not really: my blood is Italian, and my family tree, going back many generations is 100% Italian.
I live my life as an Italian, and my whole world outlook is based upon that culture, which is why I don't get 'all excited' about British matters, as much as genuine Brits - and that's fine, as they're entitled and justified to do so.
If I were pushed to vote on your poll, I'd probably vote for 'Stay', as ultimately I'm more European than British :)
Marco.
What's your take then on Scotland in/out the UK in the event of an Out vote? Scotland is very pro EU and the speculation is that the SNP would almost certainly insist that an out vote for Uk in Europe should trigger another Scottish referendum.
Lol - if you had read the (long) thread that took place here, at the time of the Scottish referendum [you should search the archive for a heated debate on the matter], you'd know my (rather strong) feelings on that one! ;)
If I feel anything other than Italian, it's Scottish, so I'm all for Scottish Independence, and Scotland and Scottish people, divorcing themselves from Westmonster, and getting a fairer deal (and what they're entitled to) from what they put into the UK. As such, I agree with much of what Nicola Sturgeon has to say.
However, I've said enough on this matter in the past, so I won't be drawn into any further discussion on it.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 20:01
Lol - if you had read the (long) thread that took place here, at the time of the Scottish referendum [you should search the archive for a rather heated debate on the matter], you'd know my (rather strong) feelings on that one! ;)
If I feel anything other than Italian, it's Scottish, so I'm all for Scottish Independence, and Scotland and Scottish people, divorcing themselves from Westmonster, and getting a fairer deal (and what they're entitled to) from what they put into the UK. As such, I agree with much of what Nicola Sturgeon has to say.
However, I've said enough on this matter in the past, so I won't be drawn into any further discussion on it.
Marco.
Ah you do do politics then! :D
I reckon that a UK exit should trigger another Scottish referendum... and I know which outcome I would bet on this time ;)
I don't know, if us foreigners are allowed to vote here.
I voted for UK to stay in the Union.
EU is the most powerful union in the world.
Our monetary wealth is about 45 trillion GBP (UK is 10% of total).
Together well will beat China and USA.
http://hoone.com/euflag.jpg
Ah you do do politics then! :D
I reckon that a UK exit should trigger another Scottish referendum... and I know which outcome I would bet on this time ;)
I 'do' it when there's something I feel sufficiently passionate about, such as unfairness and inequality ('fat cats' looking after No1).
I utterly abhor how the chinless wonders in Westmonster essentially rule the rest of the UK, and how London and the south gets most of the perks! So the sooner that Scotland can divorce itself from this unequal union, and get the opportunity instead to 'look after No1', the better!!
I also detest everything about 'the establishment', and what it stands for, including all the dribbling, incontinent coffin-dodging dickheads, who populate that useless and outdated institution, which is the House of Lords!! Here's what I'd do with the lot of those fuckers:
:guns: :guns:
Take the money that they get from tax payers and give it instead to the homeless!!
I would certainly be for *anything* that triggered another Scottish referendum, and yes I agree, they won't get away with vote rigging, or any other underhand shenanigans, next time! ;)
Oh, and don't get me started on the Monarchy!! That's WAY past its sell-by date, too. Essentially, they're nothing but murdering Germans!
Marco.
I don't know, if us foreigners are allowed to vote here.
I voted for UK to stay in the Union.
EU is the most powerful union in the world.
Our monetary wealth is about 45 trillion GBP (UK is 10% of total).
Together well will beat China and USA.
http://hoone.com/euflag.jpg
Hey no foreign votes!
Nah just kidding. Anyone is welcome to vote, it's just a bit of fun.
I don't think anyone who wants out of the political union wants out of the trading bloc. The two don't have to go hand in hand. I voted out because having the population of these islands increase by 500,000 people each year from an already crowded starting point is prima face unsustainable. Nothing to do with xenophobia or nationalism, just simple pragmatism.
I don't think anyone who wants out of the political union wants out of the trading bloc. The two don't have to go hand in hand. I voted out because having the population of these islands increase by 500,000 people each year from an already crowded starting point is prima face unsustainable. Nothing to do with xenophobia or nationalism, just simple pragmatism.
If you want a pension and a functioning NHS when you retire you'd better hope it KEEPS growing - otherwise you're shafted mate ;)
It horrifies me that something as important as this, and so vastly complex that unless you have phd's in both economics and international affairs you probably aren't in any position to hold a rational opinion on it, will be almost entirely decided by the knee jerk emotional reactions of Little Englanders and the Alf Garnet brigade :eek::steam:
Whenever I see this debated, 95% of comment and reaction is to do with one thing: Immigration. Johnny foreigner coming over 'ere... There is SO much more to this than just that!
The other 5%, which makes me laugh... is the sovereignty and "our country, our laws" lot! Yeah 'cos as soon as we're out Cameron and Osbourne are going to be falling over themselves to do what YOU want in YOUR neighbourhood etc LOL! They'd never dream of making things worse for you and even cushier for their pals in The City once no longer "held back" by EU laws now would they? There goes another flying pig... zoom!
I'm in full agreement with all of that, especially the highlighted part. It's bad enough that a coke-snorting junky, who enjoys being spanked, is in charge of the economy!! :doh:
As for Cameron...... :acid:
Marco.
walpurgis
20-02-2016, 21:33
If you want a pension and a functioning NHS when you retire you'd better hope it KEEPS growing - otherwise you're shafted mate ;)
The destruction of the Tories (by whatever means :guns:), would probably help ensure that.
If you want a pension and a functioning NHS when you retire you'd better hope it KEEPS growing - otherwise you're shafted mate ;)
I don't really understand that argument because even though I hear it a lot, it is never explained.
Surely a rapidly expanding population means we need a continuously expanding NHS which costs more money, and at some point that becomes unaffordable? The same applies to the whole public sector. There has to be a balance point, otherwise we are just doubling down every time until the population reaches what? 100 million? 200 million?
Trouble is that many/most in fact pay very little tax yet get instant healthcare and housing etc. I am not anti foreigner by any means but the huge increase lately has stretched both around here to breaking point. In some practices you struggle to here english spoken, and now have gone from a wait of a couple of days to a couple of weeks. Obviously something has to change or the whole thing is going to collapse.
walpurgis
20-02-2016, 21:54
I am not anti foreigner by any means but the huge increase lately has stretched both around here to breaking point.
You should see the state of things here mate.
As it stands we are increasing the net population by a city the size of Sheffield every year. How can that be sustainable in terms of public sector resources and the infrastructure?
Seriously if someone can explain how that works I'd consider changing my mind but at the moment I can't see how that can be a good thing and if exiting the EU is the only way to stop it then that is what it has to be.
I don't really understand that argument because even though I hear it a lot, it is never explained.
Simples - the proportion of population achieving State Pensionable Age (SPA) has been increasing steadily over the last few decades. In order to pay for this increase and also the related demands placed on the NHS and others, the working population paying into the system needs to increase rather than remain stable, as is the case. So to address this we either need a proportionate expansion of the birth rate or an influx of labour from elsewhere - i.e. immigration. Or alternatively taxes need to be raised by other means.
At the moment the balance of the 0.5 million p.a. growth you cited is 50/50 (births/influx) Given that in the same period 65 plussers increased by 0.3 million, the net population gain is not enough to address the shortfall - particularly as we also have a bunch of corporate shysters, pop stars and comedians who are shafting us through 'tax loopholes'.
Sobering stats from the ONS:
"The UK has an ageing population - the proportion of the population aged 65 and over has increased over the past 30 years, and this change is projected to continue. This is partly due to the increase in life expectancy and partly due to the relatively high number of births in the years following World War II and during the 1960s' 'baby boom', and the impact of these groups moving into the higher age groups.
One important aspect of an ageing population is the relative size of the working-age and the pensioner populations. This is expressed as the old age dependency ratio (OADR) - the number of people of or above State Pension Age (SPA) for every 1,000 people of working age.
The OADR was steady at around 300 from the 1980s to 2006, but rose in 2007-09 as women born in the post-World War II baby boom reached SPA. In the absence of any increases to SPA the OADR is projected to reach 487 by 2037; but, as a result of planned SPA increases taking place between 2010 and 2046 under current legislation, the population projections suggest that, if current demographic trends continue, in 2037 there would be 365 people of or above SPA for every 1,000 people of working age."
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/population-estimates-for-uk--england-and-wales--scotland-and-northern-ireland/mid-2014/sty---overview-of-the-uk-population.html
(although there is, of course, always the 'Soylent Green' solution ;)
I am not anti foreigner by any means but the huge increase lately has stretched both around here to breaking point.
There is no 'huge increase' - 0.7% p.a. (which includes births) is not 'huge', certainly not in the context of global population increases. What has increased disproportionately is the perception that immigration increases have been 'huge' - a perception in large part due to the disproportionate attention given by the media to opportunist political parasites of the Farage kind ;)
What is stretching the NHS to breaking point is an ageing population and successive govts starving funds so they can sell it off to their chums in the US corporate mafia.
Out ASAP.
It makes my blood boil that the Prime Minister of the UK has to beg and plead for tiny concessions. We should be able to do the best for us, not what best suits the European gravy train.
absobloodylutely!!!
Audio Al
21-02-2016, 20:04
Why on earth would anyone want to stay , Its costing us 55 million a day to be a member , and If our economy does well through our hard work we are penalised to the tune of 1.7 Billion in extra payment to the not so well off Germans and French as it already has !!
All our powers / Laws are being eroded away , Now the EU want control of our TAX system telling us how much we should pay , Telling us what fish we can catch / Crops we can grow and how many millions of tons wasted because its the wrong shape , FFS what shape is it when you have chewed it and swallowed it
The SOONER we get control of OUR country back the better :steam:
Ninanina
21-02-2016, 20:18
absobloodylutely!!!
Yes out ASAP...
One of my main reasons is that at the current rate of 'net' migration, running at about 336,000, it's simply not sustainable.. Portsmouth, where I live, has a population of more than 200,000 and to think that our population is rising by about 1 3/4 the population of Portsmouth is just frightening...
Our infrastructure is at breaking point. The UK is FULL already...
StanleyB
22-02-2016, 12:07
As a business owner who exports to the continent as well, I would be hard hit of we leave the EU. Presently continental buyers pay the VAT on a UK purchase to me. But if we leave then I would have to sell goods to them VAT free. They will then have to pay VAT at their local rate, which can be as much as 25% in some countries. To do that, it will no doubt mean that customers will have to pay the VAT to an as yet unknown entity (in the UK it would be the courier who does the collection of the VAT), before they get their parcel. If they wish to send it back for some reason, they would then have to somehow reclaim their VAT. So the process would be so messy, it would be far too troublesome to order anything from the UK.
The courier will collect duty and VAT the same as they do now if you buy something from outside the EU.
If it was any trouble then no-one in the EU would ever buy goods from outside the EU and that is not the case.
It is a ridiculous situation at the moment for the courier who has the unpaid job of collecting duty and tax for the government and even if they are unable to collect it they still have to pay it to the government. This costs international couriers millions every year, which we all pay for with higher shipping rates.
Arkless Electronics
22-02-2016, 12:49
As a business owner who exports to the continent as well, I would be hard hit of we leave the EU. Presently continental buyers pay the VAT on a UK purchase to me. But if we leave then I would have to sell goods to them VAT free. They will then have to pay VAT at their local rate, which can be as much as 25% in some countries. To do that, it will no doubt mean that customers will have to pay the VAT to an as yet unknown entity (in the UK it would be the courier who does the collection of the VAT), before they get their parcel. If they wish to send it back for some reason, they would then have to somehow reclaim their VAT. So the process would be so messy, it would be far too troublesome to order anything from the UK.
+1 There's certainly loads more paperwork etc to do when sending outside the EU! I'm for staying!!
The two biggies I TOTALLY reject (and with vitriol) are we should leave because of migration or should leave so we have more control over sovereignty and laws.
These are just two out of 100's of reasons to stay or leave and yet they are all one hears and a criminal dumbing down of the bigger picture.
The "our laws, our sovereignty" argument just makes me laugh! Who's laws and sovereignty??? Yours? mine? ours? NO!!!!! THE GOVERNMENTS!!! We only get to vote them in/out once every 5 years and between elections they do exactly as they want (which ever party is in power). EU Laws protect us from the excesses of any "malicious" laws foisted on us by our own government... maybe such as Tory changes to the law to allow their mates in industry to cut wages, make it easier to fire you, force you to work longer hours for the same wage etc ;)
We will still have to follow EU regulations on all aspects of manufacturing (CE marking, EU safety regs etc) in order to be able to export to the EU!
+1 There's certainly loads more paperwork etc to do when sending outside the EU! I'm for staying!!
The two biggies I TOTALLY reject (and with vitriol) are we should leave because of migration or should leave so we have more control over sovereignty and laws.
These are just two out of 100's of reasons to stay or leave and yet they are all one hears and a criminal dumbing down of the bigger picture.
The "our laws, our sovereignty" argument just makes me laugh! Who's laws and sovereignty??? Yours? mine? ours? NO!!!!! THE GOVERNMENTS!!! We only get to vote them in/out once every 5 years and between elections they do exactly as they want (which ever party is in power). EU Laws protect us from the excesses of any "malicious" laws foisted on us by our own government... maybe such as Tory changes to the law to allow their mates in industry to cut wages, make it easier to fire you, force you to work longer hours for the same wage etc ;)
We will still have to follow EU regulations on all aspects of manufacturing (CE marking, EU safety regs etc) in order to be able to export to the EU!
You claim the isues are dumbed down by others but then proceed to do that yourself.
Stay in the EU because it means less paper work for you. Yes that's a good reason to stay.
The minimum wage was introduced by a UK government, not by the EU. The living wage about to be introduced - same - and by a Tory government.
More migrants = more people in the labour market = lower wages
It is no accident that when we had full employment wages and therefore labour costs soared.
This is the trouble with adopting an ideological or party-political line. The facts then have to be made to fit the narrative, not the other way around.
There will be advantages and disadvantages to leaving. We have to weight them up pragamtically, not dogmatically.
StanleyB
22-02-2016, 13:16
The minimum wage was introduced by a UK government, not by the EU. The living wage about to be introduced - same - and by a Tory government.
More migrants = more people in the labour market = lower wages
It is no accident that when we had full employment wages and therefore labour costs soared..
The first point about the minimum wage is a typical example of why it is a lie by the OUT campaigners to claim that all our laws come from the EU. If the UK government can bring in such a law without any interference from the EU commission, then what is that all about our laws being dictated to us by the EU?
The 2nd point is just as deceiving. Assuming that it is true that we have about 2 million EU migrants working in the UK. Given that unemployment is supposed to be less than 700K, we would have a shortfall of available labour if there were no migrants to fill vacancies. That in turn would mean that some of those businesses would have to leave the UK to find workers to work in their business.
As for the less paperwork bit: it is more paperwork for everyone concerned. The seller, customer, courier, Customs, etc will all have more paperwork to deal with.
Oldpinkman
22-02-2016, 13:27
This is an emotive, not rational issue, and so the rational arguments will be shrugged off by those following their own particular article of faith.
Certainly bureacratic red tape like RTI payroll, quarterly business tax returns, Workplace pensions, Part P building regs (I could go on for weeks) all have NOTHING to do with the EU.
Nissan, Honda and other overseas manufacturers providing jobs and wealth would not invest in the UK if it were outside the EU (being outside the euro is barrier enough)
On Boris Johnsons announcement of support for the "Out" campaign the pound plunged - that means investors think our economy will suffer (these are different from your mate in the pub who thinks whatever he thinks - investors put their money where their mouth is)
Stanley's point about migrants was a good one. Beyond that, immigration is known to be fundamental to our economic growth. Immigrants are massively net contributors (financially) to the UK economy. (Clearly, the fact that many skilled personnel, such as hospital doctors are immigrants is a qualitative non-financial contribution to our welfare and well-being)
But never let the truth get in the way of a good story or simplistic dogma . :rolleyes:
Arkless Electronics
22-02-2016, 13:30
You claim the isues are dumbed down by others but then proceed to do that yourself.
Stay in the EU because it means less paper work for you. Yes that's a good reason to stay.
The minimum wage was introduced by a UK government, not by the EU. The living wage about to be introduced - same - and by a Tory government.
More migrants = more people in the labour market = lower wages
It is no accident that when we had full employment wages and therefore labour costs soared.
This is the trouble with adopting an ideological or party-political line. The facts then have to be made to fit the narrative, not the other way around.
There will be advantages and disadvantages to leaving. We have to weight them up pragamtically, not dogmatically.
I reject your straw man argument. I am not for 1 milli second claiming we should stay due to less paperwork! That's such a minor matter! But yes it is a fact...
We need euro laws precisely to protect us from dogma inspired laws from uk govs!
StanleyB
22-02-2016, 13:33
I just paid a bill in U$ this morning that cost me U$1200 more to pay today than it would have if I had paid it last Friday. That's how bad the market has spooked. The end result of this is that I am going to have higher import costs, which means higher retail prices.
The 2nd point is just as deceiving. Assuming that it is true that we have about 2 million EU migrants working in the UK. Given that unemployment is supposed to be less than 700K, we would have a shortfall of available labour if there were no migrants to fill vacancies. That in turn would mean that some of those businesses would have to leave the UK to find workers to work in their business.
As for the less paperwork bit: it is more paperwork for everyone concerned. The seller, customer, courier, Customs, etc will all have more paperwork to deal with.
The number of people 16 and over out of work and looking for a job in the UK is 1.69 million (source: ONS)
If we have that many out of work why do we need migrants to come and work here? Well, skill shortages obviously. So we should only allow in migrants with the skills we need. Only we can't do that - because we are in the EU. We have to allow everyone to come in, even if they will be dependant on us for their entire lives.
StanleyB
22-02-2016, 14:11
Those skilled EU workers are accused of taking skilled UK jobs at a lower salary.
As for the less paperwork bit: it is more paperwork for everyone concerned. The seller, customer, courier, Customs, etc will all have more paperwork to deal with.
That may be true, but depends on the deal agreed with the EU after UK leaves.
No-one who is in favour of leaving is in favour of leaving the trading block. And as we are a net importer, by a fair margin, of goods from the EU it is reasonable to assume that they will want to continue exporting to us.
Leaving the E U does not automatically mean leaving the trading block. Not sure why the two are being confused?
It does mean we stop giving them free money which we have to borrow in the first place. It also means that we can control the number and quality of migrants that we allow in.
Again, some seem to think that outside the EU we would not be able to have any immigration. Whereas in fact it means we could have exactly the amount of immigration that we need.
I am not really up on all the detail, but I can't help feeling that a lot of the anti EU sentiment has been stocked up by the press. For years now, any law or regulation that the public don't like or don't understand seems to have been blamed on the EU. Health and safety is a good example. Do those wishing to leave really think that all the H&S regulations are going to be repealed as soon as we leave? Of course not. You might not like them, but they save lives.
So we have some 2 million EU migrants living or working here? how many British live or work in Europe? I believe its 2.2 million.
While I agree totally that the EU has many flaws, so does westminster.
Whilst true that leaving does not automatically mean we are out of the trading block, there is certainly no guarantee that we would be allowed to stay in it and many EU countries would fervently want us out if we chose to leave.
I hope that we vote to stay.
EU countries all export to the UK. Quite a few German cars on the road. Think Germany wants tariffs imposed on their already overpriced cars? Unlikely. And the Germans do have some clout in the EU. I think you will find no EU country will want us out of the trading block, certainly not 'fervently' - Most are already struggling economically, last thing they need is tariffs on their imports to UK
Agree about the red tape, the straight bananas and such. That is all nonsense - we love red tape in the UK and we had too much long before the EU.
We stop the free money and we take control back of the borders. They are the two important advantages of leaving. All the petty stuff can be worked out on a case by case basis.
As to the emotional issue - if we vote to stay that will be the end of it. We will be fully committed to the 'Project' and no more chances to change our minds. That is a scary thought.We will end up in a badly run, undemocratic super-state that we will have no control over.
Now you may say in the UK we already live in a badly run, undemocratic state, and I wouldn't disagree. But it is smaller, more manageable and there is still hope yet to turn it around.
Oldpinkman
22-02-2016, 17:36
That may be true, but depends on the deal agreed with the EU after UK leaves.
No-one who is in favour of leaving is in favour of leaving the trading block. And as we are a net importer, by a fair margin, of goods from the EU it is reasonable to assume that they will want to continue exporting to us.
Leaving the E U does not automatically mean leaving the trading block. Not sure why the two are being confused?
It does mean we stop giving them free money which we have to borrow in the first place. It also means that we can control the number and quality of migrants that we allow in.
Again, some seem to think that outside the EU we would not be able to have any immigration. Whereas in fact it means we could have exactly the amount of immigration that we need.
Unemployment is never ZERO. Currently the number out of work was 1.77 million. However, the number in work at 73.6% was the highest since records began. We have very very full employment at the moment. And immigration, with the economic growth that it brings CREATES employment.
We do not have vast numbers of EU immigrants out of work and costing us benefits. We have vast numbers of EU immigrants in work and generating wealth for native UK residents. If you removed the immigrant work force, the jobs wouldn't suddenly be filled by the 1.77 million unemployed, and largely unemployable.
As for "staying in the trading block on our terms" - we might. But we might not. I suspect we probably wouldn't. There is sizeable resentment for our "play on my terms" approach, and the major economies will deploy Napoleons principle of "pour encourager les autres". If they start letting the UK cherry pick its EU benefits, they open an unmanageable can of worms with the other member states. So they will almost certainly look to make an example of us.
In the longer term - the impact for the city of being excluded from the EU may be catastrophic - with Frankfurt taking over a much more significant role. Ok - I know everyone on this site likes to knock the fat-cats and chinless wonders, but in all seriousness who do you think pays for our hospitals? Your £50 tax , or the hundreds of thousands paid by even fairly junior "city boys"?
The money to pay for nurses and teachers doesn't come from the factories of Birmingham, or the farms of Lincolnshire - the vast majority comes from London. And as you rightly point out, we are still spending around £80bn a year more than we collect - so cutting that revenue stream seems not the brightest idea
Boris Johnson has tried a dashing gamble. If the vote is "No" Cameron resigns, and Johnson as the charismatic backer of the winning horse, steps into oust Osborne for the Prime Ministers role. For a while. I see him emulating more than the hair style of Michael Foot, and helping us to bring in the IMF. Especially in a world of depressed oil prices - we don't even have that to bail us out. Europe will happily toss us to the wolves if we are daft enough to leave. And you can't really blame them for that.
You talk about us not paying in the money to the EU. Our net contribution is about £3bn pa. Pissing in the wind compared with the £80bn defecit. And almost certainly dwarfed by the losses that we would suffer to our economy from trade losses. And immigrants - EU immigrants to the UK since 2000 are said to have contributed £20bn in net tax revenue between 2001 and 2011 - thats £2bn a year - 2/3 of our EU net contribution.
:(
Once again you are assuming that no-one will immigrate into an independent UK? Why?
We will simply be able to cherry pick the immigrants we want. Like Australia does. Likewise those here already we can choose who stays and who goes.
Agree it is possible that EU will cut off its nose to spite its face with tariffs. Highly unlikely but possible. We can take that chance.
Agree re Boris Johnson. Don't agree re the city. Frankfurt would love to take London's crown they have ben trying for years. If it were possible then they would have achieved it already. There is no logical reason why UK exit will harm the financial sector.
Ninanina
22-02-2016, 18:48
Our net contribution is about £3bn pa
I'm afraid that is not correct... our current net contribution to the EU is running between £9bn - £11bn pa - that's roughly £27m per day....
This will be Ireland and Scotland and the Lisbon treaty all over again. IF the powers that be want us to stay , you can bet that the media will be coaxed that way to shine on their choice.If it somehow goes against their wishes then it will be brought back again until they win, The sheep shall be led right over the cliff.
Either way the country is fucked. Too much debt and an upcoming showdown in arms.
I'm afraid that is not correct... our current net contribution to the EU is running between £9bn - £11bn pa - that's roughly £27m per day....
Oh dear! - also not correct :)
"The EU Commission's office in the UK puts the Operating Budgetary Balance - the gross sum the UK puts into the EU budget, minus the money that flows back to the UK, whether via government bodies or directly to beneficiaries - at £6.7bn. They also point out that on a per capita basis, we contribute less than Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Belgium."
Furthermore:
"Still sounds like a lot... Well, the Confederation of British Industry - hardly a fluffy bunch of Bruges graduates - suggests the direct net economic benefits of membership to the UK are between £62bn and £78bn every year."
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk
This is, of course, not taking into account a sizeable raft of other benefits incurred by (for example) research organisations and 'deprived' regions (e.g. the North East and Wales) who have drawn enormously on available EU development funds over the decades since we joined.
I'm afraid the arguments for the OUT camp need to reside firmly on emotional and patriotic grounds - from an economic perspective, they just don't cut it ;)
Ninanina
23-02-2016, 00:05
Well I don't really care who has the correct figures my original stance was that the UK is already full to bursting and our infrastructure is at breaking point so we do not need any more people coming to our country, on that alone i'm voting out.. ;)
walpurgis
23-02-2016, 00:25
Here, every spot of spare land is being built on. Blocks of cheapo flats going up all around. None of the new occupants are English speaking. Walk around here and you'll seldom hear English being spoken. Crime levels are high. Families sharing a driving licence and pretending to be each other. The 'town' (joke :rolleyes:) is littered with every kind of rubbish and filth (have an old settee, a couple of dead freezers and bags of chicken guts dumped outside your house. Yeah, why not). 'People' pissing up your garden wall. Spit, fast food wrappers and beer cans everywhere, even the odd human turd in the streets. Complain and you risk being attacked!
Just observations. Come and look if you think I'm exaggerating!
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 01:19
Aye that'll be That London for you.... And surrounding area. Plenty of room here up north, and I could take you to places in Scotland where you would not see a building in two hours walking... wilderness.
Oldpinkman
23-02-2016, 06:27
And you think leaving the EU will change that do you Geoff? Have you been to Detroit? If you don't like where you live, move house. Don't fool yourself you can block out the world.
As for Britain buying VW's Macca - so does the USA. South Africa is a major market for Mercedes. Doubtless the Germans will look to keep them in the EU. The Germans don't need our market as much as we need foreign cars and bananas. All of which will be a lot more expensive bought with a hugely devalued pound
Aye that'll be That London for you.... And surrounding area. Plenty of room here up north, and I could take you to places in Scotland where you would not see a building in two hours walking... wilderness.
Same in most parts of North (and West) Wales, especially around Snowdonia. I simply couldn't live somewhere like Geoff describes (although I know he has no choice), or anywhere that's busy and overcrowded. I like my peace and tranquility, and above all, FREEDOM! :exactly:
I also like small town/village environments, and places that are pretty much divorced from the rat race that is modern life, where the pace is relaxed, and one can live almost like it was in past times. If we don't eventually move abroad, then it'll be to somewhere properly out in the country, not far from here.
Montgomery is favourite: http://www.stayinwales.co.uk/wales.cfm?town=Montgomery
Marco.
Furthermore:
"Still sounds like a lot... Well, the Confederation of British Industry - hardly a fluffy bunch of Bruges graduates - suggests the direct net economic benefits of membership to the UK are between £62bn and £78bn every year."
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk
This is, of course, not taking into account a sizeable raft of other benefits incurred by (for example) research organisations and 'deprived' regions (e.g. the North East and Wales) who have drawn enormously on available EU development funds over the decades since we joined.
I'm afraid the arguments for the OUT camp need to reside firmly on emotional and patriotic grounds - from an economic perspective, they just don't cut it ;)
No, that is just the value of trade with the EU - not free money coming back to us. As already stated out of the EU does not mean out of the trading block. As for the EU 'development funds' - that is just them giving some of our own money back to us. We are a net contributer - and always have been.
Have to say it does seem to be the 'stay' camp who have shaky grasp of economics. Some of the ideas put forward have been absurd - like that immigration grows the economy. If that is the case why don't we invite the whole world to come and live here? Sort out that migrant camp problem at Calais, just let them all in. Surprised the French don't want them, economics must work differently in France. Get the population up to 100 million! Our economy will just get better and better!
Complete rot.
Oldpinkman
23-02-2016, 09:52
Some of the ideas put forward have been absurd - like that immigration grows the economy.
Complete rot.
You of course have the Fortnum and Mason dilemma. Is growth the objective? Or do you just want to stay the same size? In economics, as in business planning, there is a default assumption that "growth is good". The basic principle being you can't divide up the cake until you have baked one.
But self-evidently immigration contributes to growth and prosperity. As does expansion of the indiginous population. You can't grow the economy without labour and skills. As we have already pointed out we are at "overfull" employment. The options are stagnate or grow with immigration, or get shagging (there is an 18 year plus lead time with the 3rd option). The problem with option one is that you end up with the Greek dilemma - an ageing population entitled to state benefits when there is no working population to creat the wealth to pay for those benefits. And you run out of friends to lend you the money you never pay back to solve the problem. Migration generally involves young people, and grows the working population. So you reverse the Greek problem of lots of old people on pensions with no working population to create the economic wealth which can pay for pensions, health care and the like. The irony is that the Polish government is concerned about the emigration of its skilled workers to the UK because it deprives them of the resources for economic growth and wealth generation.
The problem as even this thread illustrates is that the argument is hijacked. You have argued that leaving the EU doesn't mean (necessarily) ending immigration. But you are atypical in (broadly) focussing on the important issues of this referendum. I may not agree with your conclusions, but I acknowledge that you are addressing the real subject of the vote - membership of the club or not. For the likes of Bev and Geoff it is a chance to vote National Front. Only of course its not. They are voting "leave" to vote for "white supremacy, immigration ban, and repatriation of muslims, dark skins, and non-english speakers from Southall" - when of course that misses the point. This is a vote to leave the EU - not elect a right wing anti-immigration government. That is all it is a vote for -so a successful "Leave" vote will get us out of the club and its potential benefits, but not kick out the foreigners. Although kicking out the foreigners is what many of the "leave" vote think they are voting for. Helped by Farage being a focal point for the campaign.
But because the motive for supporting leave for a group is "anti-immigration" the argument against it needs to address that issue. And then the counter-argument is that leaving the EU neednt end immigration, which is true. But you go round in endless circles until you disappear up your own backside. :mental:
Firebottle
23-02-2016, 10:01
Far too complex an issue to leave the choice to Joe Bloggs (the general public) IMO.
Spanner -> works :sofa:
walpurgis
23-02-2016, 10:18
Far too complex an issue to leave the choice to Joe Bloggs (the general public) IMO.
Spanner -> works :sofa:
It's 'not leaving the choice to Joe Bloggs' that got us here in the first place!
It is joe bloggs country and they've to live in/with it. Politicians forget they are our reps not other way round:ner:
StanleyB
23-02-2016, 10:35
When politicians tell me that something is good for me, I know that what they mean is that it is going to make them rich somewhere, somehow.
It is joe bloggs country and they've to live in/with it. Politicians forget they are our reps not other way round:ner:
Indeed... Which is why I hate the whole 'jobs for the boys'/looking after No1 aspect of politics - and why I divorce myself from it as much as possible!
If anyone thinks that any politician (or mainstream political party) is looking after the genuine best interests of you or I, they're living in cloud-cuckoo land, which is why I say fuck them, and instead do what's best for ME ;)
Marco.
When politicians tell me that something is good for me, I know that what they mean is that it is going to make them rich somewhere, somehow.
Precisely!! It's all one big game of corruption, mainly for the benefit of the 'fat cats' :exactly:
You and I, and others like us, are simply pawns in their game of self-advancement and greed.
Marco.
It's 'not leaving the choice to Joe Bloggs' that got us here in the first place!
Actually only a partial truth - membership of the Common Market was one the few things ever put to a referendum (in 1975)
Admittedly this was after the Tories had signed us up already, but the public support in the vote was shown to be overwhelmingly in favour by a very substantial majority ;)
Have to say it does seem to be the 'stay' camp who have shaky grasp of economics.
Complete rot.
Not my argument old chap - the source for the economics side of things was the CBI, hardly a bunch of tree-hugging Maoist utopians:
http://news.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
The latest poster boy for the 'LEAVE' campaign, obviously a done deal now Galloway is their voice of reason :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkiwaUhz7lw
As usual it was a forgone conclusion due to the press aiding and abetting...it will be the same again...such is politics and their interaction with the press
Tom-Brown
23-02-2016, 12:06
I'm sorry if Europe was a business it would have been bust years ago. there is little or no control as to who joins and why but it is down to countires like the UK to support the failings of other EU members and we have done from the outset with little or no return or thanks. We need to be able to control our interest rates and our borders and don't need the help of other countries..... Please all of you use your common sense and vote OUT when the time comes :) :) :)
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 12:14
Indeed Rich! I was rather shocked and disappointed that even on here it's hugely pro leave so far :rolleyes:
Whether you should be shocked depends on your idea of the demographic of the forum... Certainly I get the impression that those most vocal on here about these kinds of issues are retirees with a bitter outlook on life, an "I'm alright jack" attitude and living a life isolated from the rest of the world and other cultures. Doesn't surpise me in the least to find so many like that wanting to leave the EU.
The ironic thing is, they are the going to be the least effected by ANY decision and yet are the most vocal about imposing those changes on others.
Oldpinkman
23-02-2016, 12:23
I'm sorry if Europe was a business it would have been bust years ago. there is little or no control as to who joins and why but it is down to countires like the UK to support the failings of other EU members and we have done from the outset with little or no return or thanks. We need to be able to control our interest rates and our borders and don't need the help of other countries..... Please all of you use your common sense and vote OUT when the time comes :) :) :)
How are we not currently able to control our interest rates?
Or rather, how does EU membership have any impact on that? :scratch:
Whether you should be shocked depends on your idea of the demographic of the forum... Certainly I get the impression that those most vocal on here about these kinds of issues are retirees with a bitter outlook on life, an "I'm alright jack" attitude and living a life isolated from the rest of the world and other cultures. Doesn't surpise me in the least to find so many like that wanting to leave the EU.
The ironic thing is, they are the going to be the least effected by ANY decision and yet are the most vocal about imposing those changes on others.
I can assure you i aint all right
StanleyB
23-02-2016, 12:29
I'm sorry if Europe was a business it would have been bust years ago. there is little or no control as to who joins and why but it is down to countires like the UK to support the failings of other EU members and we have done from the outset with little or no return or thanks. We need to be able to control our interest rates and our borders and don't need the help of other countries..... Please all of you use your common sense and vote OUT when the time comes :) :) :)
There is control on who joins, and why. The former Eastern block countries were roped in so that Russia would lose influence over them. The UK voted for Spain to join in the idle hope that the Gibraltar crisis would be resolved. We have received a return on our investment in other EU countries. Many of their own qualified workers have come to work in the UK in order to repay the UK taxes that were used to support their countries.
We control our interest rates. I have no idea where you got the idea from that we don't. That guy called Mark Carney has 8 or so UK citizens who meet up with him every month at the bank of England to set the interest rate for the coming month. Were you seriously not aware of this?
We also have control of our borders. Did you not notice that passports have to be produced so that you can be checked when you enter the UK? if we did not have control of our borders, why are there then so many people waiting in France to try to sneak into the UK? If what you claim was correct, they could just board a train and enter the UK unhindered.
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 12:30
I'm sorry if Europe was a business it would have been bust years ago.
So would the NHS, so would the welfare system, so would charities, so would volunteer groups, so would libraries etc etc etc Why do you think all social life and political ideals be "run as a business"?
That mindset you have shown there is the exact same problem with the EU! Those running it are just like yourself and want to see everything run as a business, want to impose privatisation left right and centre, have NO awareness of social cohesion, care nothing about the lives of the real human beings living in the EU and ONLY care about big business, free-markets and other neo-liberal obsessions.
It is this focus that is pulling the EU apart, starting with the handling of the Greek crisis and reaction to 2008's global recession and banking melt-down. That is why the political landscape in many EU countries is shifting away from those currently running the EU (in some cases, running it illegally, against it's own rules e.g. EuroGroup) and is why we should probably stay to help push a fundamental change.
Plus if we leave now, we'll be financially screwed for the next 5 or so years during a move away from the EU and Osborne's cuts have made us utterly unable to cope with that in any shape or form. Essentially, the Tories have made us weak and locked us in anyway ... and then decided to hold a refurendum just because of UKIP ! :lol:
Whether you should be shocked depends on your idea of the demographic of the forum... Certainly I get the impression that those most vocal on here about these kinds of issues are retirees with a bitter outlook on life, an "I'm alright jack" attitude and living a life isolated from the rest of the world and other cultures. Doesn't surpise me in the least to find so many like that wanting to leave the EU.
.
I work full-time for a global multinational, not bitter, not isolated and have no problem with other cultures, indeed I'm off to Italy on holiday in a few weeks.
I am 'older' though, and well versed in politics and economics, which I'll accept makes me better qualified to give an opinion that those who are younger and less experienced. ;)
Tom-Brown
23-02-2016, 12:45
There is control on who joins, and why. The former Eastern block countries were roped in so that Russia would lose influence over them. The UK voted for Spain to join in the idle hope that the Gibraltar crisis would be resolved. We have received a return on our investment in other EU countries. Many of their own qualified workers have come to work in the UK in order to repay the UK taxes that were used to support their countries.
We control our interest rates. I have no idea where you got the idea from that we don't. That guy called Mark Carney has 8 or so UK citizens who meet up with him every month at the bank of England to set the interest rate for the coming month. Were you seriously not aware of this?
We also have control of our borders. Did you not notice that passports have to be produced so that you can be checked when you enter the UK? if we did not have control of our borders, why are there then so many people waiting in France to try to sneak into the UK? If what you claim was correct, they could just board a train and enter the UK unhindered.
Sorry but that has always been the problem that we never fully embraced the principal of the EU for it to work properly we needed to accept the euro and we kept on dipping into the bits our government thought was to our benefit!!! It didn't work and we should just clear out...if we had taken the euro we would have lost any rights to control our interest rates :) and would have been well in the shit now!!!! The benefits of being completely out now far outweigh any gains that we may receive from the EU
Ninanina
23-02-2016, 12:48
For the likes of Bev and Geoff it is a chance to vote National Front. Only of course its not. They are voting "leave" to vote for "white supremacy, immigration ban, and repatriation of muslims, dark skins, and non-english speakers from Southall
I resent that remark Richard and it is totally not true
It is NOTHING to do with the colour of anyones skin, I don't care whether they are white, dark or any other colour you care to think of nor is it to do with what language they speak but it's the numbers that's the problem.. I will say it again the UK is full to bursting already
And as I have now been totally, and rudely, misunderstood I will comment no more on the subject
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 12:49
Here, every spot of spare land is being built on. Blocks of cheapo flats going up all around. None of the new occupants are English speaking. Walk around here and you'll seldom hear English being spoken. Crime levels are high. Families sharing a driving licence and pretending to be each other. The 'town' (joke :rolleyes:) is littered with every kind of rubbish and filth (have an old settee, a couple of dead freezers and bags of chicken guts dumped outside your house. Yeah, why not). 'People' pissing up your garden wall. Spit, fast food wrappers and beer cans everywhere, even the odd human turd in the streets. Complain and you risk being attacked!
Just observations. Come and look if you think I'm exaggerating!
What has any of that got to do with the EU?
Go to any white majority city centre and watch all the English pissing up garden walls, spitting, vomiting, leaving kebab wrappers and chicken boxes flying down the street in the wind. And yes, complain and you risk getting attacked by a gang of white english men and women.
In North London, every bit of land is being built upon but with luxury flats (cheaply made) and being bought up left right and centre by government encouraged, overseas investment (not from the EU), Chinese, Russian, Middle Eastern money parked there pushing up all the housing prices in the rest of the capital so no-one living here can afford a decent standard of living.
It is this NON-EU money that will be the focus of the UK government if we leave the EU so it will only get worse.
Walk around here and you'll seldom hear English being spoken.
Southall has had a massive South Asian community since the 1950s!!! It's been like that since probably before you even lived there! What has this got to do with the EU in any shape or form at all?? Is Asia part of Europe now or something?
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 12:52
Sorry but that has always been the problem that we never fully embraced the principal of the EU for it to work properly we needed to accept the euro and we kept on dipping into the bits our government thought was to our benefit!!! It didn't work and we should just clear out...if we had taken the euro we would have lost any rights to control our interest rates :) and would have been well in the shit now!!!! The benefits of being completely out now far outweigh any gains that we may receive from the EU
To clarify, you are now backtracking to say that the UK DOES indeed control it's interest rates but you were actually talking about a hypothetical world in your mind.... ?
Certainly I get the impression that those most vocal on here about these kinds of issues are retirees with a bitter outlook on life, an "I'm alright jack" attitude and living a life isolated from the rest of the world and other cultures. Doesn't surpise me in the least to find so many like that wanting to leave the EU.
Who are you thinking of here, Sam? Hope it's not me, as a) I'm currently only semi-retired, and b) I've voted for remaining in the EU :)
Also, when governments (any governments), and most politicians are so blatantly corrupt, and guilty of precisely the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality you mention, then can you blame anyone else for adopting the same mentality?
It might be different if politics wasn't largely about those who can selfishly gain most, achieving social and financial self-advancement, and there was a true 'party for the people', with policies genuinely designed to help the common man. Sadly, in reality, there is no such thing, so is it any wonder why some of us try and divorce ourself as much as possible from 'the system' and build our own 'little islands'?
That's *exactly* what I do, and will continue to do, for the duration of my time on this earth.
Marco.
I resent that remark Richard and it is totally not true
It is NOTHING to do with the colour of anyones skin, I don't care whether they are white, dark or any other colour you care to think of nor is it to do with what language they speak but it's the numbers that's the problem.. I will say it again the UK is full to bursting already
And as I have now been totally, and rudely, misunderstood I will comment no more on the subject
Indeed. Richard, I think you should apologise to Bev (and no doubt also Geoff), for making such an unkind (and incorrect) insinuation.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 13:05
Far too complex an issue to leave the choice to Joe Bloggs (the general public) IMO.
Spanner -> works :sofa:
Precisely!
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 13:06
Well I don't really care who has the correct figures my original stance was that the UK is already full to bursting and our infrastructure is at breaking point so we do not need any more people coming to our country, on that alone i'm voting out.. ;)
Well, 13% of immigrants into the UK in 2014 were British nationals returning to the country! Maybe we should stop them coming in because we're "full to bursting".
Only 32% were from the EU imigrants.
So we have 68% percent of immigrants either already British (probably returning from EU countries in financial trouble) or from outside the EU!
So again... what has this really got to do with the EU at all? It's about non-EU imigration if it really is a problem, which I don't think it is (it's down to lack of social provision by government).
And yet all the anti-EU parties and proponents still want to open our boarders to yet more and more asian students and the rich from anywhere! How much of that is part of the figures that concern you - that's only going to increase if EU boarders are closed.
Far too complex an issue to leave the choice to Joe Bloggs (the general public) IMO.
Spanner -> works :sofa:
I agree. Only those of us making a net contribution in tax should be allowed to vote seeing as it is our money they are giving away ;)
That will never happen though as then 'leave' would romp home.
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 13:15
The greed selfishness and inhumanity of right whingers is what has me popping fuses!! I've seen and heard sub human scum (and that's an insult to scum) saying things like "let thousands of foreigners starve /be bombed to death! it's preferable to them coming here and costing me an extra £5 a month council tax or an extra half hour wait in the doctors"... thoughts of my size 12's forcibly meeting the faces of people with such views spring to mind when I hear such evil and inhumanity...
And don't get me started on the Nazi's that torched a refugee centre in Germany a few days ago and then tried to stop fire engines getting to it whilst chanting racist remarks :steam: :steam: :steam:
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 13:16
I agree. Only those of us making a net contribution in tax should be allowed to vote seeing as it is our money they are giving away ;)
That will never happen though as then 'leave' would romp home.
I disagree VERY strongly!!
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 13:18
Who are you thinking of here, Sam? Hope it's not me, as a) I'm currently only semi-retired, and b) I've voted for remaining in the EU :)
Also, when governments (any governments), and most politicians are so blatantly corrupt, and guilty of precisely the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality you mention, then can you blame anyone else for adopting the same mentality?
It might be different if politics wasn't largely about those who can selfishly gain most, achieving social and financial self-advancement, and there was a true 'party for the people', with policies genuinely designed to help the common man. Sadly, in reality, there is no such thing, so is it any wonder why some of us try and divorce ourself as much as possible from 'the system' and build our own 'little islands'?
That's *exactly* what I do, and will continue to do, for the duration of my time on this earth.
Marco.
You're not particularly vocal about these kinds of things... so not you. Just the people who like to rant come across that way. It was a general impression from the content of posts, not aimed at any people in particular.
On a seperate thing, of course you can blame those who take an "I'm alright jack attitude" for their own behaviour and outlook on life! To do otherwise would be to say they are too feckless - that is surely only adding insult to their injury?
Plus I have faith that good people do and will continue to live their lives by their own moral standards and lead by example - plenty of people taking a stand out there and enjoying life to the full at the same time.
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 13:29
I agree. Only those of us making a net contribution in tax should be allowed to vote seeing as it is our money they are giving away ;)
That will never happen though as then 'leave' would romp home.
Hahahahaha! You want to go back to the 18th century..
So if I earned £10,001 in a year and pay 20% on £1 (and not claiming anything from the state) then by your moral standards I should have the same right to vote as someone actually working hard and say earning £60k ?
How about someone who pays £10k tax should have the same right to vote as someone who earns £45 million in a year, but due to their special tax avoidance arrangements offshore, only pay £5k in tax in the UK? You think they have the same moral equivalence in voting rights under your system?
If so, what's the point of your system? Or do you want to extend it so that those paying more tax get more say? So the rich get more say, you basically pay for your vote ?
Doctors training until the age of 21 or later shouldn't get to vote because they're the scum of the earth because they're not paying taxes? Anyone gaining a university eductation should not get the vote whilst those dropping out of school at a young age to work in a chip shop are more elegible to guide the country?
What kind of world do you want to live in? I don't think you think the thoughts you express through fully...
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 13:32
I agree. Only those of us making a net contribution in tax should be allowed to vote seeing as it is our money they are giving away ;)
That will never happen though as then 'leave' would romp home.
Oh and that would mean that any household earning under £40k would not be allowed to vote either - that is the estimated break-even point of a household receiving the average amount of benefit from the state including heathcare, military spending etc etc.
Earn any less than that and you're not a net contributor.
On a seperate thing, of course you can blame those who take an "I'm alright jack attitude" for their own behaviour and outlook on life! To do otherwise would be to say they are too feckless - that is surely only adding insult to their injury?
Plus I have faith that good people do and will continue to live their lives by their own moral standards and lead by example - plenty of people taking a stand out there and enjoying life to the full at the same time.
I fully agree, and I'm one of them. However, what I meant was that as the political system is so corrupt and designed predominantly to reward the rich and privileged, you can understand why some people (those who, through circumstances, are able to) seek to divorce themselves, and be as immune as possible, from the effects of 'the system'.
That's certainly what we do, and will continue to do until we pop our clogs, as the 'greed for gold', and desire for more power, amongst the fat cats and establishment, is only liable to get worse!
Marco.
The greed selfishness and inhumanity of right whingers is what has me popping fuses!! I've seen and heard sub human scum (and that's an insult to scum) saying things like "let thousands of foreigners starve /be bombed to death! it's preferable to them coming here and costing me an extra £5 a month council tax or an extra half hour wait in the doctors"... thoughts of my size 12's forcibly meeting the faces of people with such views spring to mind when I hear such evil and inhumanity...
And don't get me started on the Nazi's that torched a refugee centre in Germany a few days ago and then tried to stop fire engines getting to it whilst chanting racist remarks :steam: :steam: :steam:
I didn't know about that. Truly shocking.....
Marco.
Audio Advent
23-02-2016, 13:38
The greed selfishness and inhumanity of right whingers is what has me popping fuses!! I've seen and heard sub human scum (and that's an insult to scum) saying things like "let thousands of foreigners starve /be bombed to death! it's preferable to them coming here and costing me an extra £5 a month council tax or an extra half hour wait in the doctors"... thoughts of my size 12's forcibly meeting the faces of people with such views spring to mind when I hear such evil and inhumanity...
And don't get me started on the Nazi's that torched a refugee centre in Germany a few days ago and then tried to stop fire engines getting to it whilst chanting racist remarks :steam: :steam: :steam:
Me too.
But... the kind of EU that we've had recently (run by neo-liberal, market fundamentalists - as the Tories, UKIP and Blairites are also) has encouraged this kind of right-wing, self-centred social phenomenon across europe. It has been a growing narative since the 2008 crisis (2010 Euro crisis) and is much down to austerity as favoured by the EU AND UK. History has shown the same result time and again...
Oh and that would mean that any household earning under £40k would not be allowed to vote either - that is the estimated break-even point of a household receiving the average amount of benefit from the state including heathcare, military spending etc etc.
Earn any less than that and you're not a net contributor.
Yes, that was meant tongue in cheek hence the winking smiley thing...
The greed selfishness and inhumanity of right whingers is what has me popping fuses!! I've seen and heard sub human scum (and that's an insult to scum) saying things like "let thousands of foreigners starve /be bombed to death! it's preferable to them coming here and costing me an extra £5 a month council tax or an extra half hour wait in the doctors"... :
By the same token we can't be looking out for everyone in the world as that simply isn't possible. Someone's country is a shithole, well I'm sorry for them but the whole bloody world can't come to England and live on benefits, because that just isn't going to work.
Nor do I make any excuses for not having a bleeding heart over the tragedies of people I do not even know. Every second of every day something awful is happening to someone somewhere in the world. I'm supposed to give a shit every time? I'd lose my mind!
I'm fed up of this faux-morality that has started to become insidious in the Western world. Let's all pretend to care what happens to people we don't know half a world away and make it socially unacceptable - or even threaten violence - to those who are prepared to be honest about it.
Up until 100 years ago it wasn't a problem because if 10,000 people were killed in an earthquake or tidal wave you never heard about it. Now, just because every disaster/tragedy/murder/war is on the rolling news 24/7 we have to say 'oh how awful' and tear our hair out. Well bollox to that. I'll reserve my sympathy and my help for people I actually know and care about and I make no apologies for that. It's called sanity.
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 14:02
Me too.
But... the kind of EU that we've had recently (run by neo-liberal, market fundamentalists - as the Tories, UKIP and Blairites are also) has encouraged this kind of right-wing, self-centred social phenomenon across europe. It has been a growing narative since the 2008 crisis (2010 Euro crisis) and is much down to austerity as favoured by the EU AND UK. History has shown the same result time and again...
Spot on unfortunately... It's one of my greatest bete noires. The witch has a lot to answer for. "there is no society" BOLLOCKS!!
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 14:05
By the same token we can't be looking out for everyone in the world as that simply isn't possible. Someone's country is a shithole, well I'm sorry for them but the whole bloody world can't come to England and live on benefits, because that just isn't going to work.
Nor do I make any excuses for not having a bleeding heart over the tragedies of people I do not even know. Every second of every day something awful is happening to someone somewhere in the world. I'm supposed to give a shit every time? I'd lose my mind!
I'm fed up of this faux-morality that has started to become insidious in the Western world. Let's all pretend to care what happens to people we don't know half a world away and make it socially unacceptable - or even threaten violence - to those who are prepared to be honest about it.
Up until 100 years ago it wasn't a problem because if 10,000 people were killed in an earthquake or tidal wave you never heard about it. Now, just because every disaster/tragedy/murder/war is on the rolling news 24/7 we have to say 'oh how awful' and tear our hair out. Well bollox to that. I'll reserve my sympathy and my help for people I actually know and care about and I make no apologies for that. It's called sanity.
I'm afraid I disagree with that so strongly that I will leave it there rather than finding myself saying things not conducive to the amiable running of the forum.
Jez,
I would definitely agree that much of the 'greed for gold', seeking of 'aspirational lifestyles' (whether one can genuinely afford it or not), and 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality, prevalent today, stems from the Thatcher years. Entrepreneurial 'go-getters' are one thing (and to be applauded), but not the self-absorbed and materialistic mentality we see so often in people now.
She undoubtedly helped create that type of mindset (especially in those most likely to use it in the wrong way), which we're feeling the full force of now. Folk these days have long-forgotten (if they ever even knew) the old adage of 'cut your coat according to your cloth'.
Nowadays, it more like: I'll buy whatever coat I want, regardless if I have the money or not (by borrowing or using credit cards), because 'I deserve it'! :rolleyes:
And the world is worse off for it, not only in terms of the amount of debt we see now, but in the type of selfish attitudes that prevail...
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
23-02-2016, 14:26
Jez,
I would definitely agree that much of the 'greed for gold', seeking of 'aspirational lifestyles' (whether one can genuinely afford it or not), and 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality, prevalent now, stems from the Thatcher years.
She helped create that selfish mindset in people (especially those most likely to use it in the wrong way), which we're undoubtedly feeling the full effects of now.
Marco.
:exactly:
All highly emotive stuff ... but drifting into waters a bit removed from the key question I'm afraid ...
Although typical of the way issues that have little direct connection to our membership of what is essentially an economic trading bloc get drawn into the fray.
Whether we do or don't take in refugees of crisis and how many and under what circumstances and terms relates to our obligations as a democratic country that has freely signed up to a range of agreements with global organisations such as the UN. Possibly the only real link being the underlying reasons for the foundation of said UN and the very existence of a formal European Community ....'lest we forget'
walpurgis
23-02-2016, 16:02
For the likes of Bev and Geoff it is a chance to vote National Front. Only of course its not. They are voting "leave" to vote for "white supremacy, immigration ban, and repatriation of muslims, dark skins, and non-english speakers from Southall" - when of course that misses the point.
Shame you're not in front of me Richard!!
You should keep your (limited) personal opinions to yourself.
All this heated arguing - is so pointless. The immigration thing is about 1% of the total of what matters in this whole "show" . Media spin , before you know it everyone is arguing - divide and conquer works every time. All it does is make the whole fragment into bits - easy pickings.
Is better to concentrate on the why's ? Why is Cameron bending over to take one up the jacksie to stay in. ? Why is BJ jumping to the exit ? Its got bugger all to do with immigrants - you think big D and his eton ramblers really give a shit about poor rafa from syria or lil ole bobby from sudan ? Probably visibly recoil if one of them walked up to him for a handshake (unless a photoshoot opp was in it)
Why has there been no Audit of the European coffers for what - a decade? Why are more people not up in arms about TTP and what that really means if implemented.
Personally i think we will get royally shafted whichever way it goes. The money men will win. Always do. That is what should be being questioned . Who's pockets are going to get lined .
But, more importantly -it is half time and Barca haven't scored yet :cool: (in the interest of European harmony i am not biased towards Arsenal, i think Barcelona are a wonderful gifted team too):D
Personally i think we will get royally shafted whichever way it goes. The money men will win. Always do. That is what should be being questioned . Who's pockets are going to get lined .
Spot on! That is why I can't really be arsed with any of it.
Marco.
Floyddroid
23-02-2016, 21:58
Out out out!!!!!!!
Oldpinkman
25-02-2016, 10:37
Indeed. Richard, I think you should apologise to Bev (and no doubt also Geoff), for making such an unkind (and incorrect) insinuation.
Marco.
Sorry. I've been busy with urgent house sale issues, trying to reduce the population of the UK by one to do my bit for Bev's overcrowding, and only glancing at headlines, not reading threads in detail.
I apologise Bev and Geoff. I accept your assurances you are not racist, or prejudiced against foreigners. I am not quite clear on that basis what point about EU membership Geoff was trying to make with his earlier post on the subject, but I clearly misinterpreted the idea that he would like to leave the EU to stop residents who speak languages other than English from living in Southall because they all behave unacceptably.
I'm not completely clear on Bev's point either. As I understand it immigration is not the problem its capacity in the UK and we are full. Do we need a Chinese style policy of one child per family? Or is closing the borders enough?
Of course, the point I was trying to make, is that the vote is to leave the EU, and not a vote to introduce immigration policies favoured by right wing racist parties like UKIP and the National Front. If we leave the EU we will pay duty on Danish bacon and Lurpack (if they still find it economic to supply us), queue at customs in Dover coming off the car ferry to pay duty on 10 of the 12 bottles of wine in the boot, get firms like HSBC and others to relocate jobs (spending, taxes) to Ireland or France, never have another Honda or Nissan or Panasonic factory built in the UK (apart from Scotland, which will seek independence and join the EU), and move the Calais immigrant camps to Dover. It is a vote to leave the EU, not to change the Conservative government for UKIP
We will be outside the EU, but governed by Labour or the Conservatives, alone or in coalition, and not UKIP. So no change necessarily in immigration. But the "Leave" campaign have happily hijacked the "anti-immigration" camp in the way Boris Johnson thinks people are voting "leave" to negotiate better terms properly - but stay. Both are deluding themselves. The vote is to leave the EU.
And we are pretty unlikely to have a government which seeks to compulsorily repatriate existing EU residents. Or we would have to make room to welcome back the 2.2m UK citizens residing in EU countries when they are repatriated. And what does anyone think the French will do about Calais?
1) Say - no problem UK, I know you are no longer in the EU, but by all means set up a UK frontier and frontier controls in Calais, while we man the razor wire and enjoy the presence of refugee camps on our shore at our expense OR
2) "Get on a boat guys - the frontier is over there in Dover" (much as the Turks say to refugees getting on boats for Greece). I am assuming radical solutions like sinking the ferries mid-channel, or ceasing all ferry traffic with France are not being proposed.
It's perfectly simple. Just find out what George Galloway is in favour of, and vote for the opposite.
It's perfectly simple. Just find out what George Galloway is in favour of, and vote for the opposite.
He has to get it right sometime.
It's perfectly simple. Just find out what George Galloway is in favour of, and vote for the opposite.
This... Except change George Galloway for Ian Duncan Smith and you won't go wrong.
Lol... It always amuses me how some folk have such strong feelings towards particular politicians, and single them out for abuse, as Richy boy has done :eyebrows:
For me, every single one of them are selfish self-serving twats, to varying degrees of self-serving twatiness, so I reserve no particular 'dislike' for any of them. Simply file them all under that category, understand that they will NEVER be 'on your side', and leave it there :)
Marco.
Some are worse than others and ids is a twat of highest order.
It's perfectly simple. Just find out what George Galloway is in favour of, and vote for the opposite.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Oldpinkman
04-03-2016, 08:30
Interesting editorial on Bloomberg by Clive Crook today - someone more inclined to Macca's view on this than mine usually. His final paragraph
"In the end, as I say, I come down on the Economist's side in believing the U.K. should stay. Sadly, many of the exit campaigners are delusional about Britain's short- and medium-term prospects outside the EU. Nonetheless, concern over loss of sovereignty shouldn't be so blithely dismissed. It's the price the U.K. pays for remaining a member -- and a high price too."
A couple of brief points relevant to that conclusion - the first is his own made in the article
"I've reluctantly (oh so reluctantly) concluded that Britain should indeed vote to stay. The costs of exit probably outweigh the benefits, I've argued, partly because it would be in the EU's interest to prove exit doesn't pay."
And the second - an example of how loss of sovereignty , burden of regulation, and expense of contribution would not be avoided if we leave - but still want the trade benefits. Norway is a good example of a "fringe club" member . Norway has had to enact more than 10,000 EU acts to be in the EEA, and pays around 800 million euro per year in net contributions to EU finances, and receives no benefits from those contributions, and has no say over policy, future laws or any other aspect of the EU.
For me the saddest aspect of this whole affair is the age distribution of preferences. Around 70% of pensioners, who can vote, and are very likely to are expected to vote to leave. They of course have largely stopped contributing, and need to be supported by the generations of the future, charged with producing the prosperity of our nation, and living with its neighbours for many many years after the pensioners are no longer with us.
70% of schoolchildren would vote to stay members. This is our future generation wanting to live in peace and harmony with Europe, and believing in the social, political and economic benefits of membership - who will be around picking up the tab for years to come - and have no vote. The worry is that apathy and disinterest are more likely to lead to poor turnout by "stay" voters than "leave voters"
When thinking of our children, it is worth remembering that the origins of the EU were political union, not economic union. The purpose - the primary, founding purpose, being to end wars between the continental European powers. This has been an outstanding success. Europe has now been 70 years since the end of the 2nd world war WITHOUT a war in Europe (between the EU core group members). That is the longest period in recorded history. It has NEVER previously been achieved
What do we want to leave for our children?
lack of war in Europe is due to:
1) NATO
2) Nuclear weapons
3) The Nazis - that happening was so nasty Germany quite understandably lost its taste for war.
You must be getting desperate if you have to resort to 'The EU keeps the peace' ;)
I don't think you should worry. I'm expecting 'Stay' to take it with about 60% of the vote. Which is a shame because I think a few years down the line when people realise what they have done by tying us in chains to a sinking ship they will regret it. And we will never get another chance. Being able to say 'I told you so' will be cold comfort.
Had to laugh with the G20 summit warning of a 'global economic shock' if the UK leaves the EU. What happened to the view that we are just an irrelevant little island and that we need to suckle at the teat of Europe if we are to survive? They can't both be true!
Europe is a failing experiment imho which haemorrhages more of the UK's moneys per day than any other expenditure we have with massive holes in accounting for where that money goes. The NHS alone looses massive amounts of money every week to Europe, something I was unaware of until recently, and far from being under funded, simply has allowed other EU nations to get off scot-free for treatment of non UK citizens residing in the UK whilst we pay out over £670 million every year to the EU. Last year the NHS only recouped £50m of the £500m it was owed. There are rampant and supported (under the table) protectionist agendas by France, Italy and Germany which have favoured their contracts over British contracts for major EU projects; the whole farming subsidy issue is out of hand and allows French farmers to carry on running small family farms of just a handful of acres and make a living from it whilst our farmers struggle to make anything on much under 200 acres, most operating under massive overdrafts to survive. Our fishing industry has been decimated, our territorial waters lost, and ever more intrusive directives and shackles on freedoms introduced. I'm not so worried about complying with things like H&S legislation and legislation concentrating on the common market upholding common values for wages, workplace standards, working hours and that sort of thing but am whole heartedly against the EU interfering in other areas of life, and for far too long, bleeding us dry with a massive discrepancy in what we get in return.
Those who say we cannot go it alone are scaremongering. We still have the World Trade Agreement which can now be renegotiated, especially with former commonwealth countries whose interests support such agreement. I export more outside the EU now than I do to mainland Europe anyway. The pound will fall, but no lower than the Euro. Wages will have to rise, and inflation will have to rise which means interest rates will have to rise (and about time they rose a bit) but this is likely to be medium term whilst several EU nations throw their rattles out of the prams and do things in retaliation against the UK for leaving and taking a massive cash injection out of the EU. I believe we should strive to rebuild relationships outside of the EU with our EU neighbours. Who says we need fall out with any of them? We should be positive and supportive of their wishes but just not part of their experiment in federalism which is stripping member states of their cultural heritage, freedoms and control over their borders, something which is massively important in these troubled times.
As to our borders, they need control. The exception should be Ireland where the UK, can choose to keep borders open with the South and strengthen relationships between North and South. Having grown up during the start of the troubles there, believe me, there is no appetite by the younger generations to return to those dark times and indeed no need to. Scare mongers use this as an example where army patrols and borders have to be erected. Rubbish, they don't, so don't be swayed by that argument. The EU experiment is also a very secular led one, and we have seen a dilution of Christian values and faith in the UK over the years, albeit not wholly related to the EU but not helped by it either. For agnostics or atheists this is unimportant. For Christians, it is not and this united Kingdom's Christian heritage matters to many, myself included..
It is a difficult decision as there are some positives in remaining but I am looking not to my short or medium term, but to my children's long term aspirations and well being. For that reason, I will be voting that we leave.
Oldpinkman
04-03-2016, 09:29
To address the war issue first
Similar smug complacency followed the "war to end all wars" - and barely 20 years later that Hitler chap had roped us all in. Seriously - what is the longest period in European history you can find with no war between the Western European nations?
http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm
NATO, nuclear weapons and the Nazis haven't stopped wars in Ukraine, the Balkans or other parts of the world.
As for economic significance, in an interlinked world, even small insignificant uninfluential nations can wreak havoc and fear if they fail. Greece and Portugal would do nicely as 2 examples. I think the global economic shock is there and going to happen, regardless of which trigger (China, oil, Brexit, Trump and the path to isolationism, Greece) you blame for it. In my view it is due to classic long-wave economic and technological cycles, which were disrupted a bit by the emergence of China and the "Greenspan put". Look to Kondratieff for your explanation.
But I hope your prediction is correct. I fear it may come down to apathy and "last minute" events (like a refugee incident close to the election)
We'll see
Oldpinkman
04-03-2016, 09:34
As to our borders, they need control. The exception should be Ireland where the UK, can choose to keep borders open with the South and strengthen relationships between North and South. Having grown up during the start of the troubles there, believe me, there is no appetite by the younger generations to return to those dark times and indeed no need to.
How do you keep open a border with Ireland, who as an EU member has to have an open border with the rest of the EU, and control your border? Will the passport controls just know what a native Irishman looks like and only check passports for Poles, Romanians, Hungarians and the like?
This is a classic example of people not understanding the underlying complexities of our closely bound ties with the EU. :(
To
NATO, nuclear weapons and the Nazis haven't stopped wars in Ukraine, the Balkans or other parts of the world.
Neither has the EU. Indeed the EU is partly to blame for the Ukrainian situation.
Take the Germans out of the equation and we would not have had a European war since 1815. I'm not counting some minor skirmishes in the Balkans, those places have always been unstable.
How do you keep open a border with Ireland, who as an EU member has to have an open border with the rest of the EU, and control your border? Will the passport controls just know what a native Irishman looks like and only check passports for Poles, Romanians, Hungarians and the like?
This is a classic example of people not understanding the underlying complexities of our closely bound ties with the EU. :(
Leaving completely means that whilst border controls will probably happen, there is no need to return to the army manning every border crossing. That is my point Richard....no need for military border crossings (sorry, should have explained that better). The really sad fact about this whole EU mess we've got ourselves into is that we had the option of a referendum worded to remain within the Free Trade Area, the position, effectively, we signed up to when we entered the Common Market. It is this government's ineptitude and poor diplomacy which has both harmed our relationships with our EU neighbours and effectively put some barriers in place against reverting to partial withdrawl. Best option for us it seems might have been to withdraw to either an EFTA agreement or remain at least within the EEA. That is not what is on the cards though. It, I suspect, is a position which would have met with a majority support within the UK as it would have addressed many of our gripes with current EU membership whilst protecting us against some of the interference and costs of full membership.
The Government want to stay in - for a variety of reasons - but one of the main reasons is to give them a gravy train to climb aboard when their UK government one comes to a halt. See Kinnock, Neil.
This is why we have the bizarre alliance of socialists and senior Conservative ministers all wanting to continue the status quo. You would think that would ring alarm bells with the socialists, but apparently not.
In any case that is why Cameron came back with no deal - he doesn't want a deal! And that is why the ref is going to be 'in' or 'out' instead of 'political union' or 'free trade area only'.
if the option was 'free trade area only' it would be landslide in favour.
They figure people will be too scared to vote 'out' since it seems so open ended, and clearly from the results of this poll, that tactic has worked on 50% (minus those who are living on the Continent already, or are planning to move there, since they have a vested interest for encouraging a 'stay' vote). Personally I think they have nothing to worry about, the EU will still welcome them with open arms because they will become increasingly desperate for the foreign currency reserves of the British ex-pats.
Oldpinkman
04-03-2016, 16:52
Best option for us it seems might have been to withdraw to either an EFTA agreement or remain at least within the EEA. That is not what is on the cards though. It, I suspect, is a position which would have met with a majority support within the UK as it would have addressed many of our gripes with current EU membership whilst protecting us against some of the interference and costs of full membership.
I think there is nothing in a referendum to leave the EU that doesn't leave room to join one of the junior clubs. I rather presume that is expected. It certainly seems to be what Macca expects. I think the point of my earlier post was that isn't as exciting as some seem to think. Norway pays a higher percentage of its GDP than we do, and has a colossal amount of EU imposed legislation - and no vote, and no say in how Europe is run.
It's easy to point to the flaws in the EU, and I think not even the most passionate pro-EU advocate would deny some of the shambolic and ridiculous aspects to the thing, but it's not so easy to disengage from it. Both not easy, and not attractive. It's a bit like pointing out how painful Japanese acupuncture can be, and ignoring the benefits it brings in muscle and pain relief.
I don't think EU membership , or withdrawal from it in any way implies a return to the troubles or armed border controls in Ireland. It was the peace process, not the EU, not even Shengen which transformed Ireland. I was 10 when we joined the EU, and 31 when I last crossed the border from North to South and back again in the shadow of the machine gun nests. But if we leave the EU, then we have a problem with allowing passport free travel between North and South, since the South would have an open border with the rest of the EU - as it does now. And the chances are the Scots would seek a new referendum to leave, and rejoin the EU, which would presumably imply passport checks for travel from England to Scotland too.
Or we would be leaving the EU, and keeping our borders open to the Shengen states of Ireland and Scotland - thus NOT controlling our borders, one of the apparent key reasons for many to leave. How does that work?
Oldpinkman
04-03-2016, 17:01
The Government want to stay in - for a variety of reasons - but one of the main reasons is to give them a gravy train to climb aboard when their UK government one comes to a halt. See Kinnock, Neil.
This is why we have the bizarre alliance of socialists and senior Conservative ministers all wanting to continue the status quo. You would think that would ring alarm bells with the socialists, but apparently not.
In any case that is why Cameron came back with no deal - he doesn't want a deal! And that is why the ref is going to be 'in' or 'out' instead of 'political union' or 'free trade area only'.
if the option was 'free trade area only' it would be landslide in favour.
They figure people will be too scared to vote 'out' since it seems so open ended, and clearly from the results of this poll, that tactic has worked on 50% (minus those who are living on the Continent already, or are planning to move there, since they have a vested interest for encouraging a 'stay' vote). Personally I think they have nothing to worry about, the EU will still welcome them with open arms because they will become increasingly desperate for the foreign currency reserves of the British ex-pats.
Cameron wants to stay in. Osbourne wants to stay in. A large lump of the government want to get out, which is why we are having a referendum in the first place. To make the Conservatives a credible possibility for government on the key issue they have alienated much of the electorate with.
Again - there is nothing in "out" which doesn't allow us to join the junior clubs. If we pay, retain the EU legislation, enact more, and give up our vote and influence in Europe. And close our borders with Eire and Scotland. I think you are mistaken in your assumption that this is interpreted as "leave the EU and have absolutely nothing to do with anything connected with the EU at all, and return to trading with the commonwealth"
There is an expectation we will have a close relationship, outside formal membership, and that is how people are voting. Of course, as the other point made by Clive Crook, whether the EU would let us, or let us on anything other than painful terms of revenge, is very questionable. There are plenty of forces pulling the EU apart (rather than creating an agenda for true reform). The creaking edifice may implode if the UK leaves. If it encourages others to start leaving, or negotiating terms, it is even more likely to implode. Which is why it is likely that the EU will make an example of us if we leave - to make it clear to anyone else thinking along the same lines what a complete shot in the foot the EU will ensure that it is.
If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.
The EU sells a lot more to us than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over £50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly £100 billion. It seems unlikely that the EU would seek to disrupt a trade which is so beneficial to itself.
– Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.
– World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which most of those 3 million jobs rely.
I think there is nothing in a referendum to leave the EU that doesn't leave room to join one of the junior clubs. I rather presume that is expected. It certainly seems to be what Macca expects. I think the point of my earlier post was that isn't as exciting as some seem to think. Norway pays a higher percentage of its GDP than we do, and has a colossal amount of EU imposed legislation - and no vote, and no say in how Europe is run.
It's easy to point to the flaws in the EU, and I think not even the most passionate pro-EU advocate would deny some of the shambolic and ridiculous aspects to the thing, but it's not so easy to disengage from it. Both not easy, and not attractive. It's a bit like pointing out how painful Japanese acupuncture can be, and ignoring the benefits it brings in muscle and pain relief.
I don't think EU membership , or withdrawal from it in any way implies a return to the troubles or armed border controls in Ireland. It was the peace process, not the EU, not even Shengen which transformed Ireland. I was 10 when we joined the EU, and 31 when I last crossed the border from North to South and back again in the shadow of the machine gun nests. But if we leave the EU, then we have a problem with allowing passport free travel between North and South, since the South would have an open border with the rest of the EU - as it does now. And the chances are the Scots would seek a new referendum to leave, and rejoin the EU, which would presumably imply passport checks for travel from England to Scotland too.
Or we would be leaving the EU, and keeping our borders open to the Shengen states of Ireland and Scotland - thus NOT controlling our borders, one of the apparent key reasons for many to leave. How does that work?
Your position Richard is the same as most pro EU voters, unsurprisingly, and is your opinion which I respect. However, to some, including myself, the cost of remaining within EFTA is well worth paying as it means that plenty of legislation and our border controls can remain under the UK's control and if (when) the good ship EU finally sinks, we wont be in any worse position. Border control is our responsibility and we have, at some stage sooner rather than later,to take full control of it and be responsible for our own affairs instead of passing the problem to others. Naysayers keep on bashing on about the difficulty of making border controls work. Of course it's difficult! That's implicit for goodness sakes, but it is far from impossible (requiring much more funding) and is very necessary to stem the tide into our crowded little island which simply does not have the resources to cope (facts, not opinion). It is only one of a myriad of reasons I'll be voting to leave as I just think that our current economic outlook is no different medium to long term leaving than it is staying, and a good few independent think tanks agree with that opinion as does one of the more senior members of the CBI although their official position remains pro EU. The short term will be hard and I suspect things will deliberately be made difficult for us as we're set to extract significant monetary resources from the un-elected money grabbing and corrupt institutions in Brussels. I never voted for them and do not wish to remain under their control. I wont be changing my mind anytime soon.
StanleyB
04-03-2016, 17:21
I often see people mention EU legislations. But I don't see any mention of which legislations they are that are bothering people. Maybe we can have some well informed Brexit supporters educate the rest of us about the legislations that are harming us?
I often see people mention EU legislations. But I don't see any mention of which legislations they are that are bothering people. Maybe we can have some well informed Brexit supporters educate the rest of us about the legislations that are harming us?
You seriously have to ask that question? Ok, lets offer up a few starters. This is far from exhaustive and only touches the tip of the iceberg. Debates are informed opinion and it's pretty worrying the number of people who really don't seem bothered by these things or bothered to look deeper into some of the more damaging legislation. In NO particular order:
- European arrest warrants: way too much control over British courts;
- Common fisheries policyands enacted Directives thereof: lets see....complete devastation of the British fishing fleet and complete environmental devastation of our territorial waters by over fishing, ONLY counteredby measures the the UK put into place to enable the creation of a number of protected aquatic habitats;
- Farm subsidy policies: hand more of our contribution o the French than we get back in agricultural benefit;
- regulatory costs of the massive administration of centralised EU policys and legislation: so far totally unsatisfactorily unaccounted for but carries an annual price tag to the UK of many millions per annum;
- Proposals dfor new rules on the Freedom of Movement and the Convention on Human Rights, which if enacted leave the path open for many more Paris style terrorist atrocities, whilst at the same time introducing draconian and totally ineffective knee jerk proposals for a reform on EU firearms legislation which will force some utterly incomprehensible legislative changes on the UK (which by the way has the toughest and most effective gun control laws in the world ). Just one example of the barmy nature of misdirection and complete failure to tackle the real secruty issues posed by open door freedom of movement within the EU;
- A proposed annual increase in EU contribution awaiting Brussels to enact it into legislation amounting to 20 Billion Euros increase in cost of membership...for what? Since no actual audited accounts have YET ever beem laid at our door, why should we agree to any further increase? yet conveniently, the proposals and enactment were shelved until after the BREXIT pole was carried out;
- European Union water legislation, which includes unreasonable waste water quality demands which are driving up energy and chemical use as well as greenhouse gas emissions. That is not to say we should be relaxing any current standards BUT IS saying that proposals for ever more burdensome legislation have reached the tipping point where no significant environmental benefit will result from these proposals but their implimentatin will cost each member state very dearly and increase carbon footptint for treatment significantly. The information has been highlighted as very problematical by the Institution of Mechanical and Electrical Engineers. An example of the costs of treatment which goes beyond the environmental cost benefit is that this is costing UK water companies up to £9 million a year on electricity to run 300 blowers for activated sludge plants. Industry estimates suggest that 1% of all of the UKs electricity is consumed by compressors used for the aeration of wastewater at the nations sewage treatment works and Greenhouse Gas (GHG) emissions from the operational side of the water industry are approximately 0.7% of the total UK emissions. That's crazy when there are other less energy intensive measures which can be taken but the argument is that standards have become over prescriptive directkly through EU Directive amendments within the EU Water Framework Directive.
- The EU has "shelved" plans for allowing regulation of damaging pesticides hazardous to human health. The Gaurdian reported this a while back stating that " EU moves to regulate hormone-damaging chemicals linked to cancer and male infertility were shelved following pressure from US trade officials over the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) free trade deal, newly released documents show.
Draft EU criteria could have banned 31 pesticides containing endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs). But these were dumped amid fears of a trade backlash stoked by an aggressive US lobby push, access to information documents obtained by Pesticides Action Network (PAN) Europe show."
-Regulating noise emissions from lawnmowers (I kid you not!) which are of no real benefit since current legislation has lowered emissions to more than acceptable levels for all new machines, yet the EU wants the UK to contribute towards more pointless reductions.
In fact, whilst we're on the subject of pointless EU legislation with no obvious benefits to the UK, has anyone stopped to really look at the costs to the UK of such nonsense? Well, a political commentator and journalist Ross Clarke has, and here's what he had to say on the matter:
For 24 out of the 100 costliest regulations the Government's impact assessments do not even pretend that they benefit the economy in any way. Among them are the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013, which are calculated to cost the economy £1.5billion a year without giving us a penny in return, and the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 2004, which costs industry £41million a year with no measurable financial benefit whatsoever.
The list is almost endless, and if anyone who has eyes and can read would care to look, there is plenty of evidence on the damage that a whole raft of EU legislation either is having, or which if proposals are voted in and enacted, will have on the UK.
It is not for those who hold reasonable personal views on their decisions to leave the EU to have to evidence their reasoning by offering to prove anything unless those asking for such proof are willing to do the same and debate each and every point in turn. It is however a deliberate attempt to belittle and be disrespectful those who hold alternative views and it does seem to be unfortunate just how personal and nasty some of these EU debates have become. Once that sort of thing starts, there's little point in taking part in any further debate and just voting as one's informed conscience dictates. Personally, I have no problem with anyone voting to stay in and fully respect their own POV because (I would hope) they must also vote with an informed conscience and that has to be respected. Free speech means just that though and it gets tiresome having the same inane chestnuts flung about as an argument against those wishing to leave when it costs nothing to say nothing rather than to belittle. Sadly though, it seems to have become the battle cry for many.
I'm getting concerned about the politics behind a withdrawal. Other states want a referendum and I'm sure Germany will want to deter others from voting to leave. It wouldn't surprise me if they tried to make an example of the U.K. by denying us a good deal on free trade agreements if we opted out. Likewise any other ways they could find to make life difficult for us if we opted out.
I can just see Mercedes and BMW lobbying Merkel to impose trade tariffs on the UK - they won't care at all about one of their largest markets being closed to them.
Face it the whole idea of them cutting off their nose to spite their face is a fantasy. Too much money involved as Grant has pointed out. When it comes to money ideals get forgotten, pragmatism rules.
If the UK leaving helps to pull down the whole rotten edifice then that is even better. I don't know if there will be a queue to leave after we do - if there is what does that say about the popularity of the EU?
Most people in the EU want the free trade - they don't want the political union. The future plans for the EU are not for a 'United States of Europe' - they are for a model similar to the USSR - no national boundaries at all, just regions that will overlap the current national borders with a small degree of autonomy that will gradually dwindle to nothing.
I often see people mention EU legislations. But I don't see any mention of which legislations they are that are bothering people. Maybe we can have some well informed Brexit supporters educate the rest of us about the legislations that are harming us?
The big one is the free movement of people. That is really what has prompted this whole issue. The EU is far to disparate, economically. Too many people from the poorer countries are coming to live in the wealthier countries and it has become unmanageable. When Turkey inevitably joins how many will want to come and live here? It will be in the millions, as it was with Romania and Poland. And we are talking about peasants here, not doctors and scientists. They will only stop coming when the infrastructure collapses under the weight and the money runs out at which point we are all shafted.
It's insane and I really despair that people don't seem to understand this.
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 09:24
The big one is the free movement of people. That is really what has prompted this whole issue. The EU is far to disparate, economically. Too many people from the poorer countries are coming to live in the wealthier countries and it has become unmanageable. When Turkey inevitably joins how many will want to come and live here? It will be in the millions, as it was with Romania and Poland. And we are talking about peasants here, not doctors and scientists. They will only stop coming when the infrastructure collapses under the weight and the money runs out at which point we are all shafted.
It's insane and I really despair that people don't seem to understand this.
If we are talking peasants - then you are one of them (ie they are not all illiterate goat-herds, but blue collar workers. And quite a few are well educated) We don't need a population exclusively comprised of doctors and scientists, although its handy to have a few of them. They come for work - because there is work to be had - because we have full employment. They work as courier drivers, restaurant and hotel staff, cleaners, shop workers, construction workers, and factory workers. Why is the money going to run out, when they are the raw materials for economic output, which creates the wealth, from which tax revenues are earned, to enable us to maintain services for a population which is ageing.
The real issue isn't immigration, EU or otherwise. Its how modern welfare states adapt to increasing demand for, and cost of health care and other services, including retirement pensions for an ageing population. When the welfare state was introduced with a retirement age of 65 the statistical average life expectancy was 67 years. Now its 78 years. And we have advanced cancer treatments, hip and other joint replacements, transplants including heart transplants and more, which didnt exist in Atleys day, and weren't in his budgetting. It is expected that people of my childrens generation will expect to live to be 100.
So we have a welfare state designed on the basis that you work paying national insurance for 47 years from age 18 to 65, and then draw a pension and medical benefits for 2 years after that, whereas the working period has effectively been reduced by the "norm" of university attendance, and the money saved up now has to keep us for 35 years from age 65 to 100. The sums don't work, which is why we are solving it VERY temporarily, by putting it on the credit card, and remortgaging "self cert" every year. I mean the nation is doing that.
Raising retirement age to 67 doesn't scratch the surface. And there is a limit to how much you can change that. We are living longer, but not in the sort of health that would let you carry on as a hod-carrier into your 80's
We are going to run badly out of money, but not due to Romanian immigrants working in our hotels and DHL vans. They are part of the solution, not the cause of the problem
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 09:43
I can just see Mercedes and BMW lobbying Merkel to impose trade tariffs on the UK - they won't care at all about one of their largest markets being closed to them.
Face it the whole idea of them cutting off their nose to spite their face is a fantasy. Too much money involved as Grant has pointed out. When it comes to money ideals get forgotten, pragmatism rules.
If the UK leaving helps to pull down the whole rotten edifice then that is even better. I don't know if there will be a queue to leave after we do - if there is what does that say about the popularity of the EU?
Most people in the EU want the free trade - they don't want the political union. The future plans for the EU are not for a 'United States of Europe' - they are for a model similar to the USSR - no national boundaries at all, just regions that will overlap the current national borders with a small degree of autonomy that will gradually dwindle to nothing.
Martin - who are you kidding? Do you think we will stop buying Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, Fiat, Alfa, SEAT, Skoda etc, and start buying Chevrolet and Dodge? Or restart Rover, Austin, Morris, MG?
It aint gonna happen. We are still going to buy their cars because we want them and can't get them from elsewhere. Nissan are not going to build their next EU manufacturing facility in Sunderland though. They will export to the UK from Spain or Belgium. We are an important market for the likes of BMW. The United Kingdom represent 9% of total BMW sales. China represents 22%. Maybe I missed Chinas accession to the EU.
What is it you think we sell that they can't do without?
They don't need to cut off their nose to spite their face. They just don't need to allow us to turn up to play in the soccer league wearing cricket whites, gloves and pads. The problems will be our problems, and they won't be looking to make it cosy for anyone else thinking of leaving.
If we are talking peasants - then you are one of them (ie they are not all illiterate goat-herds, but blue collar workers. And quite a few are well educated) We don't need a population exclusively comprised of doctors and scientists, although its handy to have a few of them. They come for work - because there is work to be had - because we have full employment.
Firstly I'm not a blue collar worker. Not sure where you got that from?
Secondly we do not have 'full employment' - there are currently 1.6 million people registered as unemployed and looking for work and another 4 million of working age who are not in employment, education or training.
Thirdly I question the whole basis of the idea that we need to import millions of unskilled people to support those who have retired. Low paid workers contribute zero to the net tax take. If they use public services like schools and hospitals they re actually a negative. If they have children they get tax credits and child benefit - they are not paying in any net money to support pensions or care for anyone. How can you seriously suggest this?
Even if this wasn't the case you are suggesting we increase the younger population massively to cater for the increasing aging segment. So what happens 40 years on when this enormous bulge you have created in the population stops working and wants pension and health care? Do we import yet more people and create an even bigger bulge? At what point do we stop? When population density reaches Soylent Green levels? There is no logic to your argument and there are other, workable solutions to the aging population issue in any case.
Furthemore, consider this (not my own work, copied and pasted from elsewhere):
In order to match England's population density of 413 people per square kilometre, European countries would need to take in the following numbers of migrants:-
Austria 26.4 million
Denmark 12.4 million
France 162.3 million
Germany 65.6 million
Greece 42.8 million
Italy 64.7 million
Poland 90.5 million
Romania 79.4 million
Spain 162.1 million
Sweden 176.3 million
Conversely, if England had the same population density as France, it's population would be 14.5 million.
Example; take Poland:
Area 312,685 sq. km.
Multiply by 413 to match England's population density
= 129,138,905 (129.1 million)
Subtract Poland's current population of 38.6 million
= 90.5 million uptake
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 10:35
The overcrowding point is probably your best, Martin. I have mentioned before that if your case against immigration was pressure on green belt and other infrastructure factors, I would recognise the merits of that. It is too crowded for my tastes here in the South East of England, which is why I am emigrating (to the EU, with 2.2 million other Brits) to a village with a winter population of 89, and wild boar for neighbours. (And we have just accepted an offer for the 3rd time for that move :doh:)
But your population densities are a bit contrived. Most of France is empty farm fields. Have you been to Paris, where most of its population live? Hong Kong, New York, Shanghai would all be examples of dense populations - but take density per kilometer for the USA or China and they are "empty". Why didn't you pick Alaska or the Eastern Soviet Union for your heads per square metre count?
As for unemployment - the official rate is 5% which is the lowest it has ever been. If there is such a thing as full employment, we have it. In a way , you highlight another relevant issue to my ageing population one (and don't kid yourself - that is the real ship sinker. The entire welfare state balanced the books based on an average life expectancy of 67 years. We have relied on borrowings to solve the problem - as Greece did. We are just not quite as far up the river as they are.)
The other relevant issue is excess welfare payments, and a society which attempts to afford a core of people with no interest in working because they are adapted to a comfortable life on benefit. To that extent, Camerons fairly feeble concessions at least focussed on the core problem - a growing welfare state, and a shrinking working population to pay for it.
As for Blue Collar - I just meant I didn't understand you to be a scientist or a doctor, and so like everyone else who isn't a scientist or doctor, myself included, you are a peasant presumably.
A comfortable life on benefits..ffs get a grip man:doh: ..ive not got a comfortable life. I cant work due to my health. I paid into system for 35 years, now i cant get an appointment to see my doc.
The overcrowding point is probably your best, Martin. I have mentioned before that if your case against immigration was pressure on green belt and other infrastructure factors, I would recognise the merits of that. It is too crowded for my tastes here in the South East of England, which is why I am emigrating (to the EU, with 2.2 million other Brits) to a village with a winter population of 89, and wild boar for neighbours. (And we have just accepted an offer for the 3rd time for that move :doh:)
But your population densities are a bit contrived. Most of France is empty farm fields. Have you been to Paris, where most of its population live?
Yes been to Paris and round France many times. The point about the pop density is 'how many more can you cram in?' We are already packed in tight in England compared to all the other EU countries I listed. Hospitals, schools, transport net are all overloaded already, house prices and rent are going up above inflation due to simple supply and demand. A city the size of Sheffield arriving every year? If you can explain how that is manageable long term please go ahead.
Unemployment at 5% is far from the lowest it has ever been:
The data on the unemployed from 1948 to 1982 is referred to as the registrant count as it referred to the number of people registered at government offices as looking for work. The lowest recorded unemployment rate in this period is 1% in the mid 1950s, the highest was in September 1982 when it reached 14%. Source: ONS
You may recall a Labour Gov losing office in 1979, partly because unemployment had topped 1 million for the first time in modern history and this was considered unacceptable then. But now 1.6 million unemployed is 'as close to full employment as we can get'?
Depends how its calculated too. It can be massaged in whatever way they want by just moving folk in and out of nooks and crannies.
Exactly. They are not going to publish a worse figure than they have to. For people to be better off wages have to rise faster than prices and that doesn't happen for unskilled workers when there are 1.6 million already unemployed and a quarter million more arriving from the EU each year.
StanleyB
05-03-2016, 11:38
A comfortable life on benefits..ffs get a grip man:doh: ..ive not got a comfortable life. I cant work due to my health. I paid into system for 35 years, now i cant get an appointment to see my doc.
I for one would not consider a person who has put money into the system to be undeserving of financial support when they need it, especially in older life.
But in my teens I lived close to a very rough housing estate. Many of the folks there were of my age, and on benefits already. Fast forward 40 years later and most of them are still on benefits with hardly any employment record on their CV. Worst still, many of them complain the loudest about migrants taking away their chances of getting a job.
If that wasn't bad enough, I have met people who are hoping that if we had less migrants, UK wages would rise. What they are overlooking is that inflation, house prices and rents will rise as well in line with any wage increases. So we won't be better off financially.
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 11:46
A comfortable life on benefits..ffs get a grip man:doh: ..ive not got a comfortable life. I cant work due to my health. I paid into system for 35 years, now i cant get an appointment to see my doc.
Yes. I don't doubt that Grant. The problem is that there are others who abuse the system. We have a neighbour with 3 cars, colour TV, prop up the bar, but no job - and fit and healthy. And there are worse examples. Its another of those dilema's - if you point out that the system is abused by some, people rush to take offence and point out it is not abused by all. That's fine. But the extension that it is abused by none is not valid
And we need to reduce the abuse of the system, so that it can provide properly for those in need. Part of that "abuse prevention" would include EU benefit immigrants - which is why I said Cameron was on the right track, even if the result was fairly feeble and financially insignicant.
There are some but its not as bad as it was..trouble is its the folk who need it that often get screwed by the draconian changes as they dont know how to screw the system..the often end up topping themselves...its sad that a country with the wealth we have cant do this properly. But no they get companies who only get paid when they get someone off benefits so guess who its easiest to screw?
Its not mr. Wise guy with 3 cars etc
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 11:52
Martin
We're clearly not going to agree. I'll have a side bet with you. I think you are wrong in your conclusions about house prices -and it is just a typical example of the non-causal relationships you presume ("it always rains when the pavements are wet" so wet pavements cause it to rain)
I think house prices have shot up because of monetary looseness and quantitative easing. Money supply expansion designed to boost the economy, in fact just created money with nowhere to go, so it was invested in the stock market and housing to provide a return when bank accounts weren't.
If house prices fall substantially, are you going to conclude we need more immigrants to help keep them up? The question was rhetorical
The bet is that house prices fall substantially, with no significant change in population figures. By the end of 2018.
colour TV, .
Unemployed and with a colour TV? Outrageous! ;)
I'm no longer poor in any realistic way but I still live in a poor area in a poor town and know a lot of relatively poor people. I suppose it depends on your definition of a 'comfortable life'. Their houses are okay, they run old cars, they can manage to feed and clothe and pay the bills. They have colour telly but no money for extras like a cheap holiday once in a while.
Problem is that if you are poor and from a poor EU country that life looks like heaven.
Martin
We're clearly not going to agree. I'll have a side bet with you. I think you are wrong in your conclusions about house prices -and it is just a typical example of the non-causal relationships you presume ("it always rains when the pavements are wet" so wet pavements cause it to rain)
I think house prices have shot up because of monetary looseness and quantitative easing. Money supply expansion designed to boost the economy, in fact just created money with nowhere to go, so it was invested in the stock market and housing to provide a return when bank accounts weren't.
If house prices fall substantially, are you going to conclude we need more immigrants to help keep them up? The question was rhetorical
The bet is that house prices fall substantially, with no significant change in population figures. By the end of 2018.
No, I agree there are many other factors as far as the housing market is concerned. But 250,000 a year extra people have to live somewhere. And I agree the end to tax relief on rentals will affect prices in a negative way. Nevertheless I am confident in the basic law of supply and demand. Assuming we stay in EU and assuming there is no huge house -building programme implemented then over time house prices and rent will continue to increase above inflation. Happy to bet over say next 10 years?
I for one would not consider a person who has put money into the system to be undeserving of financial support when they need it, especially in older life.
But in my teens I lived close to a very rough housing estate. Many of the folks there were of my age, and on benefits already. Fast forward 40 years later and most of them are still on benefits with hardly any employment record on their CV. Worst still, many of them complain the loudest about migrants taking away their chances of getting a job.
If that wasn't bad enough, I have met people who are hoping that if we had less migrants, UK wages would rise. What they are overlooking is that inflation, house prices and rents will rise as well in line with any wage increases. So we won't be better off financially.
Sure Stan .i know of plenty like that. Never did a taxed job in their lives. Cllaim everything going and know every dodge..passed down the generations . im now too ill to get an op to fix some things but get classed by many as a scrounger. Pisses me off.
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 14:04
Unemployed and with a colour TV? Outrageous! ;)
I'm no longer poor in any realistic way but I still live in a poor area in a poor town and know a lot of relatively poor people. I suppose it depends on your definition of a 'comfortable life'. Their houses are okay, they run old cars, they can manage to feed and clothe and pay the bills. They have colour telly but no money for extras like a cheap holiday once in a while.
Problem is that if you are poor and from a poor EU country that life looks like heaven.
Sorry - I should have specified wall mounted plasma :)
Well that is outrageous.... Bassas have no right having one...ive got a 22 inch one.. All i can afford. Mind u the wife never complained:eyebrows:
Poll is runni!g neck n neck here where i thought it would be pro eu. Maybe there is hope lol
Na itll go the way of the scottish one....one way or another
Oldpinkman
05-03-2016, 14:17
No, I agree there are many other factors as far as the housing market is concerned. But 250,000 a year extra people have to live somewhere. And I agree the end to tax relief on rentals will affect prices in a negative way. Nevertheless I am confident in the basic law of supply and demand. Assuming we stay in EU and assuming there is no huge house -building programme implemented then over time house prices and rent will continue to increase above inflation. Happy to bet over say next 10 years?
I'm happy with 2018.
Supply and demand is misused regularly with housing. If supply can't meet demand, 250,000 immigrants increase the homeless population by 250,000 and don't touch house prices, once stock is used up. We are of course building houses all the time. House prices fell dramatically in 1987, and fairly spectacularly in 2009. This wasn't the result of massive instant construction, or emigration. Stamp duty changes have an effect, but only like window tax and crew-cab cars and van tax, a distorting effect. So Mayfair prices are falling because the stamp duty on 4 £1million pound investments is less than 1 £4 million investment. And 3 of the people viewing our house last weekend had exchanged and were completing before 31 March, and living with their mums, because their houses were being bought as "2nd homes". But all the time people believe a property will go up by 5% pa, then 5% stamp duty is just the first years gain and wouldn't stop an investment.
As I said before - immigration leads to overcrowding and pressure on planning, green belt and the like, not increased house prices. We build houses to match demand, which is why homeless numbers are not up by the million or so net immigrants - more demand, more supply. House prices are up because people want to "invest" in them.
No - if you print money - it has to go somewhere, and if the banks are paying minus 0,25% interest, then it goes into a "safe" asset which produces a better return. Any asset is "safe" if it didn't crash yesterday (this assumption that what has been happening will continue to happen for the indefinite future).
Of course, if house prices will fall because they have only risen on the back of loose money, and stocks have been doing the same, you can add a falling stock market to my 2018 prediction.
The 'official' polls seem to be calling it quite close as well.
Still think we are in for a disappointment but at least it will make the pro-EU side sweat up until the vote. :)
As I said before - immigration leads to overcrowding and pressure on planning, green belt and the like, not increased house prices. We build houses to match demand, which is why homeless numbers are not up by the million or so net immigrants - more demand, more supply. House prices are up because people want to "invest" in them.
.
You can't be suggesting that we are building houses for all these people? I can tell you exactly where they live - they live in existing buildings converted into flats and bedsits and garden 'sheds' converted into 1 room apartments. Round here the Poles and other East Europeans rent 2 bed terraces and sleep 2 to a room (4 rooms total plus kitchen and bathroom) so 8 adults per house - more in the larger houses.
Some of the lads I know share one room and one bed, one working nights the other days.
That's the reality. They aren't buying or renting what few new builds there are because they are way too expensive. An old terrace is £400 a month, a new build of similar size will be £600 to £800.
Ninanina
11-04-2016, 20:23
I've just received the Governments pamphlet about the EU referendum..
I was just about to throw it in the bin but thought I'd take a very quick flip through it
Oh my goodness what a complete liar Cameron is.... and I quote: "We control our own borders which gives us the right to check everyone, including EU nationals, arriving from continental Europe"....
Now I understand that the UK is not part of the Schengen Agreement, however, starting from 1995 it is in fact illegal for the UK to deny entry to anyone from an EU country, even if they are a murderer!
You really couldn't make it up could you? :doh:
Audio Advent
12-04-2016, 01:16
Round here the Poles and other East Europeans rent 2 bed terraces and sleep 2 to a room
What?? Some people live like that when they are living somewhere for no reason than for the current job project - think of Auf Wiedersehen, Pet
is a British comedy-drama television programme about seven British migrant construction workers. In the first series, the men live and work on a building site in Düsseldorf.
I work with many Poles, Hungarians etc and would you believe it??? They live in houses with their partners, they live in house shares, they rent flats - funny because that's also how my British work colleagues live too.
Audio Advent
12-04-2016, 01:25
Now I understand that the UK is not part of the Schengen Agreement, however, starting from 1995 it is in fact illegal for the UK to deny entry to anyone from an EU country, even if they are a murderer!
You really couldn't make it up could you? :doh:
You just did.
In the UK, if you are a convicted murderer and served your time it is illegal for an employer to discriminate against you for those past convictions unless special exceptions apply. It is illegal to be harrased by UK boarder staff based on those spent convictions.
If an EU murderer has served their time for the crime, they quite rightly should be treated the same as any UK national - it is their human right and I for one would fight and defend this country for such a moral stance, against any oppressor who tried to deny human beings of those rights.
Now... if someone, ANYONE is suspected of having committed a crime such as murder and they are on a wanted list, they will rightly be stopped and checked, arrested if the country in question can show reasonable suspicion (less than resonable in some cases to be honest..).
So what is it you're going on about here?
Audio Advent
12-04-2016, 01:43
I'm happy with 2018.
Supply and demand is misused regularly with housing.
etc etc etc
I agree with that in general - "supply and demand" simply has logical basis when the commodity in question is so expensive that people have to borrow money to pay for it and then DON'T EVEN OWN the commodity afterwards. It's a complete mirage of any form of supply and demand.
With everyone in the supply chain taking percentage rewards on the final price of properties, their financial objectives are to increase prices. Banks and individual bankers/ advisers get percentage commissions too and will happily push borrowing up further and further - they may be cautious in not pushing it too far too fast but that's all.
Zero interest rates effectively mean that the banks have no risk on borrowing that money for bad loans because they have no need to make a return to pay interest - they can simply dream about getting some return some day long in the future and still be fine. In the meantime the individual bankers get their percentage commission realised / monetised that year and have no concern as to it's long term prospects at all.
Look at the system that effects property prices and only a very small part of it could be said to be supply and demand.
Audio Advent
12-04-2016, 01:48
Poll is runni!g neck n neck here where i thought it would be pro eu. Maybe there is hope lol
Na itll go the way of the scottish one....one way or another
To make a prediction, you'd need to understand the demographic.
Given what I think to be the demographic of a hifi forum, and the non-hifi section of a hifi forum at that, I'm surpised it's not more the way of the leave vote. If, as I think, the demographic of this forum does not reflect the demographic and views of the country, that stay is leading this poll implies to me that Stay will have an even larger lead in the rest of the UK.
Then again I live in London and am increasingly aware of how different (and backward ! :D - tongue in cheek there) much of the UK is compared to the major metropolitan areas.
I'd take "backward", in terms of what you're inferring, most times over your opposite 'forward'... ;)
I also wouldn't live in London, if you paid me!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
12-04-2016, 06:41
To make a prediction, you'd need to understand the demographic.
Given what I think to be the demographic of a hifi forum, and the non-hifi section of a hifi forum at that, I'm surpised it's not more the way of the leave vote. If, as I think, the demographic of this forum does not reflect the demographic and views of the country, that stay is leading this poll implies to me that Stay will have an even larger lead in the rest of the UK.
Then again I live in London and am increasingly aware of how different (and backward ! :D - tongue in cheek there) much of the UK is compared to the major metropolitan areas.
I think you're conclusions about demographics are correct. But its close. And the worst demographic is that in general old gits (I fall into that category statistically) are pro-exit, and are reliable voters, and the young flower of tomorrows hope are pro-EU but wobbly unreliable voters.
I think it will come down to media events in the last week, which is a really really really sad reflection on democracy (the lesser of many evils). A Brussels bomb, Cameron's Dad making legitimate investments, a lorry unloading immigrants in a Dartford carpark.
That last headline emphasises for me the worst sadness of the pro-exit group. As a broad generalisation, their support is for "border control" and xenophobia. Banana's too straight and other myths get a bit of an airing, but this is really a National Front / UKIP agenda of "no immigrants". Without actually having to vote NF/UKIP in a general election. So - a lorry unloads with (say) 20 illegal immigrants in a Dartford carpark, surrounded by police who arrest them, and photographers who cover the story, based on a tip-off from the driver who was "boarded". And the conclusion is , because this happens, we need to leave the EU and take control of our borders.
What control?
Leave the EU and stop letting all foreign lorries in?
Leave the EU and start searching lorries when they come in (1 - we already search them. 2 Leaving the EU would have no effect on our right, ability, or motivation for doing so)
Leave the EU and they will stop trying to come? Come on, please? These were illegals. They weren't allowed in UNDER EU rules - but they still wanted to come. The poor bastards drowning in the Aegean aren't allowed in, but are still motivated to try
Very, very sad, that our future prosperity, peace and employment and other opportunities are hijacked in this way, and in all likelihood will be finally hijacked by some rag-head fundamentalists setting off a bomb a few days before the election
:(
I don't care if people vote out for the wrong reasons, the important thing is for a majority to vote out.
If we don't then that will be the end. No second chances. We will sleepwalk into an undemocratic, semi-communist state where the unelected EU commission will control every minute aspect of your life down to what you can and can't eat and drink. The European economy will continue to go down the tubes, the useless third world peasants who will have to be kept from cradle to grave will continue to flood in.
We sacrificed everything to defeat the Nazis. To replace them with this?
The generation of British who vote to remain in this nightmare will be tarred with eternal shame.
Lol... I can't help but giggle at how you guys get so 'het up' about this stuff, which simply makes me yawn :eyebrows:
Still, being passionate about your beliefs is always to be applauded!
Stay or go, it'll make largely hee-haw difference to the ordinary man in the street, i.e you or I, during the time we have left on this earth, so my advice is to take a chill-pill, open a nice bottle of wine, close the curtains on the selfish and corrupt world we live in, and enjoy what time you have left with a smile on your face :)
That's certainly what I'll be doing.
Marco.
I am mostly amused by the Scottish people wanting an 'out' vote - a consequence of which would by another Scottish independence referendum and (assuming a 'yes' vote) an independent Scotland re-joining the EU. Said Scottish people would then be faced with a terrible dilemma; stay in Scotland and thus in the hated EU, or move to 'free' non-EU England!
Lol... In that scenario, I should imagine they'd be more interested in ridding themselves from the (unfair for decades) control from Westmonster, than divorcing themselves from the EU ;)
Although, (for the little I care about the matter), I'm more in the stay than go camp, *anything* that brings about another Scottish independence referendum, so that Scotland can get what they should always have had, and finally free themselves from English rule, is a good thing!
Marco.
I am mostly amused by the Scottish people wanting an 'out' vote - a consequence of which would by another Scottish independence referendum and (assuming a 'yes' vote) an independent Scotland re-joining the EU. Said Scottish people would then be faced with a terrible dilemma; stay in Scotland and thus in the hated EU, or move to 'free' non-EU England!
Tis a lot of assuming. I will move to Wales;)
:hifive: :yesbruv:
Marco.
Lol... I can't help but giggle at how you guys get so 'het up' about this stuff, which simply makes me yawn :eyebrows:
It's not like it's something important, such as boxes and wires, disagreement over which can lead to bitter disputes, fractured alliances, and threats of violence.
But seriously, EU membership is a serious matter with serious consequences if we vote to leave, particularly for those who live/work in Continental Europe, or who might want to do so in future.
Sure, although thankfully the effects of that won't really penetrate the 'little island' I've built, for the time I have left on this earth, which is why I'm fairly apathetic towards the whole thing.
That aside, you should note that my earlier post, part of which you've quoted, was just a little bit tongue-in-cheek... ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
14-05-2016, 23:23
Occasionally, Boris Johnson says something I agree with. His latest comment has a ring of truth (in my opinion).
From ITV News:
http://i66.tinypic.com/28s3swz.jpg
Godwin's Law. But he makes a fair point. Why do we have to have it? What is the point? Can't we all be left to do our own thing with as little state interference as possible? It's just too much to ask isn't it?
Godwin's Law. But he makes a fair point. Why do we have to have it? What is the point? Can't we all be left to do our own thing with as little state interference as possible? It's just too much to ask isn't it?
Ironically this is posted by a Moderator :-)
Just imagine what would happen to this forum without moderation, then imagine than IRL with arms companies selling their products.
There's a difference between 'none at all' and 'as little as possible' :)
Not just an EU problem, more laws, regulations and government in general is seen as the answer to everything these days, when it is the opposite of what is actually required.
Ironically this is posted by a Moderator :-)
Just imagine what would happen to this forum without moderation, then imagine than IRL with arms companies selling their products.
Well, quite. It's also amusing to see various left-wingers, who could hardly find words bad enough for IDS and Boris Johnson previously, suddenly regarding them as truth-tellers and founts of wisdom.
Virtual-Symmetry
15-05-2016, 09:17
Don't wanna stay but dont wanna pay import duty tax on mi records from Germany either. Cant they just hold the vote till ive bought all i need?
:eyebrows:
Are we seriously comparing the moderation of this forum to the EU?
I want to know where my ludicrous tax free salary is then, and my overly generous pension.
Where's Marco when you need him?
Are we seriously comparing the moderation of this forum to the EU?
I want to know where my ludicrous tax free salary is then, and my overly generous pension.
Where's Marco when you need him?
We're asking why you think we should be allowed to 'do our own thing' in Europe with as little state interference as possible, when you moderate one of the more restrictive forums. Why have any rules at all? What does it matter whether a cable is reviewed in artist's palette or strokes of genius, or whether a for sale item has a picture or not?
[QUOTE=Joe;757279]We're asking why you think we should be allowed to 'do our own thing' in Europe with as little state interference as possible, when you moderate one of the more restrictive forums. QUOTE]
Because you have to put a picture up with your sales ad? Come off it.
Restrictive?? Thats funny ...... Some basic rules that are only common sense and decent behaviour.
If Joe started a hi-fi forum it would be an anarcho-syndicalist collective...
walpurgis
15-05-2016, 10:08
People should feel free to put forth any reasonable opinion. It does not have to match the thoughts of others.
Not sure why the forum is being discussed in this thead. "Restrictive" is an odd term to use. There are sensible rules as the place would run riot otherwise.
And who are these "various left-wingers" anyway?
Not sure why the forum is being discussed in this thead.
Because with this forum we have built a police state that makes the EU look like Telly Tubby land.
Allegedly.
Not just an EU problem, more laws, regulations and government in general is seen as the answer to everything these days, when it is the opposite of what is actually required.
Yep, the man in the street has been better off every time deregulation has happened.
It has never happened, every year we have more laws, never fewer.
Deregualtion in the real world just means there is easier access to the trough/ trough is bigger. The State never reduces its powers.
walpurgis
15-05-2016, 10:24
Oh well. This is all very interesting, but I'm off to have a nice cuppa and a biscuit. ;)
Because with this forum we have built a police state that makes the EU look like Telly Tubby land.
Allegedly.
In the same way that the EU is just like Nazi Germany.
Oh well. This is all very interesting, but I'm off to have a nice cuppa and a biscuit. ;)
That is NOT ALLOWED under EU rules!
Firebottle
15-05-2016, 10:54
It has never happened, every year we have more laws, never fewer.
It doesn't affect many people but paramotoring was de-regulated in 1996.
If you can foot launch a flying machine then that machine is not subject to any regulations and the pilot doesn't need a licence.
This doesn't apply to France unfortunately.
In the same way that the EU is just like Nazi Germany.
Well, it has a flag and a song. No cool uniforms though. Not yet, anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U
OK. What thing(s) would you like to do that the EU prevents or plans to prevent you from doing?
Virtual-Symmetry
15-05-2016, 12:07
Im one of those that does not give two hoots about politics anyway. If we stay in or not who cares?
Im one of those that does not give two hoots about politics anyway. If we stay in or not who cares?
Well, it will have a major impact on our economy, and, on a more trivial level, will make it more difficult to travel around Europe. I can understand people complaining about the cost of the EU to Britain, and, to some extent about the implications for immigration. What I can't understand is this 'The EU is like Nazi Germany and will take away our precious freedoms' line that is trotted out, most recently by Boris Johnson. What precious freedoms are at risk, and how?
Virtual-Symmetry
15-05-2016, 12:15
I don't have much money or a good paid job, i cant even get a job with full time ours since loosing my last one so i do not see how worse it can get for me tbh.
Cast your mind back to the days befor we even went into Europe.. Seemed ok to me back then.
I don't have much money or a good paid job, i cant even get a job with full time ours since loosing my last one so i do not see how worse it can get for me tbh.
Cast your mind back to the days befor we even went into Europe.. Seemed ok to me back then.
I can just about remember those days, but I was at school. Surely you must be too young to remember them though; ISTR you saying you were 47 now, so you'd only be 3 when we joined!
Virtual-Symmetry
15-05-2016, 12:21
I am an 1960s obsessive even my parent who are working class say it was better before
Well, it will have a major impact on our economy, and, on a more trivial level, will make it more difficult to travel around Europe. I can understand people complaining about the cost of the EU to Britain, and, to some extent about the implications for immigration. What I can't understand is this 'The EU is like Nazi Germany and will take away our precious freedoms' line that is trotted out, most recently by Boris Johnson. What precious freedoms are at risk, and how?
Ultimately there will be full political and financial union and that will include the legal system. Get rid of all that inconvenient Common Law and replace it with Napoleonic code. Or will we be able to use our 'influence' and have them all change to our system?
Ultimately there will be full political and financial union and that will include the legal system. Get rid of all that inconvenient Common Law and replace it with Napoleonic code. Or will we be able to use our 'influence' and have them all change to our system?
Well, we've managed to stay out of the Euro and Schengen, so I don't see why we would be unable to retain Common Law. I imagine any such change would be subject to veto by individual states.
Arkless Electronics
15-05-2016, 13:28
I'm infinitely more concerned about tories over here taking away freedoms and that is one big reason why I'm so pro Europe! The more our freedoms are protected by EU laws which override the evil of the tories the better!
The one that really makes me laugh is all the stuff about "sovereignty" and "our laws", "our rules" that one hears from brexiters!! Surely the governments not "ours"....
As if all the little Englander B&B owners will be asked if they would like to start putting "No Blacks, No Irish" on their doors again now we "have our own freedoms back" :eek:
We've managed to avoid them so far but once we vote to stay in this time that will be it. We'll ultimately be fully committed to the whole project. Won't happen overnight of course, but it will happen.
That is why I think it is so important to vote out. With any luck UK secession would collapse the whole political side and we can all go back to just being a trading bloc and visiting each other on holiday, which I suspect is how the majority of Europeans would like it to be.
I'm infinitely more concerned about tories over here taking away freedoms and that is one big reason why I'm so pro Europe! The more our freedoms are protected by EU laws which override the evil of the tories the better!
:
If that is true why are the majority of evil tories campaigning to stay in the EU? Do they not realise leaving is a chance to finally crush the workers underfoot once and for all? On that logic they should all be supporting Brexit.
Arkless Electronics
15-05-2016, 13:37
Cos they know it's also good for business.
We've managed to avoid them so far but once we vote to stay in this time that will be it. We'll ultimately be fully committed to the whole project. Won't happen overnight of course, but it will happen.
Ah, now we enter the world of speculation. Why would the future be so different from the past in this respect?
If that is true why are the majority of evil tories campaigning to stay in the EU? Do they not realise leaving is a chance to finally crush the workers underfoot once and for all? On that logic they should all be supporting Brexit.
A quick look at those Tories supporting it will tell you all you need to know. IDS, Boris Johnson, Neil Hamilton, Jacob Rees-Mogg. A fine collection of opportunists, deadbeats and crazies. Add George Galloway, and the final nut is in the fruitcake mix.
A quick look at those Tories supporting it will tell you all you need to know. IDS, Boris Johnson, Neil Hamilton, Jacob Rees-Mogg. A fine collection of opportunists, deadbeats and crazies. Add George Galloway, and the final nut is in the fruitcake mix.
Good point - Because there are no crazy/unsavoury characters supporting staying in. At all.
walpurgis
15-05-2016, 14:07
We've managed to avoid them so far but once we vote to stay in this time that will be it. We'll ultimately be fully committed to the whole project.
What will happen if the Russians decide they want a bit more territory and start 'expanding' over European borders? And I can see that happening. Will we, being a part of the 'whole' Europe be dragged into a war?
We would get involved no matter what... Maybe we should join the new ussr;) they got gas man
We'd still be in that war even if we had left the EU. We are always straight in there if someone says 'War!' for some reason or other.
Arkless Electronics
15-05-2016, 14:41
A quick look at those Tories supporting it will tell you all you need to know. IDS, Boris Johnson, Neil Hamilton, Jacob Rees-Mogg. A fine collection of opportunists, deadbeats and crazies. Add George Galloway, and the final nut is in the fruitcake mix.
A list of A list arseholes! George is ok though. a good socialist.
Virtual-Symmetry
15-05-2016, 18:55
Could you please add a 'couldn't care less' option to the poll? ;)
Marco.
Too right
George is ok though. a good socialist.
+1 - and capable of talking plenty of sense too, when he wants! :)
Marco.
I wouldn't trust the current government as far as I could throw them, and Boris Johnson is demonstrably a liar and should probably be thrown in prison.
God help us if we leave Europe. We'd very likely see Scotland gain independence, and there would probably be a massive influx of European immigrants keen to settle here before our exit was finalised.
But sure, let's vote LEAVE, we want our sovereignty back! We want Theresa May to be able to do whatever the fuck she likes with no possibility of redress, because she's British! How dare these foreigners come over here and tell us that our government can't act without being accountable to us!
http://gu.com/p/4j8ba
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
Landloper
16-05-2016, 20:21
Aus!
:steam:
Arkless Electronics
16-05-2016, 20:26
IN!
:)
StanleyB
16-05-2016, 20:31
If we leave then businesses like mine that trade across borders will be hit. The biggest issue will be import Duty for the customers.
Arkless Electronics
16-05-2016, 20:43
I know it's a right pain dealing with non EU countries due to all the extra paperwork!
I don't think that anyone over the age of about 65 should be allowed to vote in this referendum.
If they were eligible to vote in the last one, they had their chance, and they'll be dead before anyone has to really deal with the consequences of this one, whichever way it falls.
Interesting piece on BREXIT from Paul Mason in The Guardian this morning...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
Interesting piece on BREXIT from Paul Mason in The Guardian this morning...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
It is one of the main fears i grant you... Hopefully it will fail but twist some arms to change a few things too. That way get the best of 2 worlds.... Alas we know that wont happen with the faceless
do I even want to be part of the same electorate as millions of closet Nazis in mainland Europe?
The EU, politically, begins to look more and more like a gerrymandered state, where the politically immature electorates of eastern Europe can be used – as Louis Napoleon used the French peasantry – as a permanent obstacle to liberalism and social justice. If so – even though the political conditions for a left Brexit are absent today – I will want out soon.
'politically immature electorates' trans: 'people who don't agree with me'
I'd rather share a country with the closet Nazis than people like him.
Arkless Electronics
17-05-2016, 11:40
do I even want to be part of the same electorate as millions of closet Nazis in mainland Europe?
The EU, politically, begins to look more and more like a gerrymandered state, where the politically immature electorates of eastern Europe can be used – as Louis Napoleon used the French peasantry – as a permanent obstacle to liberalism and social justice. If so – even though the political conditions for a left Brexit are absent today – I will want out soon.
'politically immature electorates' trans: 'people who don't agree with me'
I'd rather share a country with the closet Nazis than people like him.
I can hardly express how strongly I disagree with that!!!
Democracy is not the be all and end all by a long chalk and yes a huge majority of people can be VERY wrong. Remember that Hitler was voted into power!
I have an extremely low opinion of "the general public". They are , as a single entity, thick as shit and likely to be persuaded by tabloids, celebrities etc...
If "the people" choose a Nazi government then "the people" are wrong and must be "defeated"!!
Well I was being slightly facetious.
But Mason is typical of his type - never had a proper job, never been poor, and so has no idea of the problems, let alone the solutions. But he thinks he has the moral high ground which, as we all know, counts for everything.
Well I was being slightly facetious.
But Mason is typical of his type - never had a proper job, never been poor, and so has no idea of the problems, let alone the solutions. But he thinks he has the moral high ground which, as we all know, counts for everything.
Define 'proper job'. And don't we all feel that we have the moral high ground, at least to the extent that we believe our own opinions to be the correct ones? Don't you believe that your pro-Brexit stance is morally superior to the 'remain' one?
If we vote to leave the EU, the Human Rights Act will be scrapped so quickly that you'll hardly have the chance to say "Theresa May". Also, the EU will be powerless to stop the Tory plans to erode the right to privacy, and our civil liberties with their Communications Data Bill, something that the EU is already citing as unlawful. I just don't trust this government enough for there not to be a layer of EU power.
walpurgis
17-05-2016, 16:32
Seems to me there's only one plan of action. Shoot every Tory MP and bomb the rest of Europe into submission! Sorted. :eek:
Define 'proper job'. And don't we all feel that we have the moral high ground, at least to the extent that we believe our own opinions to be the correct ones? Don't you believe that your pro-Brexit stance is morally superior to the 'remain' one?
No I don't. Nor do I think those who wish to remain in are 'politically immature' or brainwashed by the 'left wing' media.
They're just wrong. ;)
Seems to me there's only one plan of action. Shoot every Tory MP and bomb the rest of Europe into submission! Sorted. :eek:
They'd just find more MPs to replace the dead. And as for bombing Europe into submission that ship sailed a long time ago. Ironically the country we did bomb into the ground is now calling all the shots - except with the French who have always just done what they want and tell everyone else to bollox. Which is admirable.
It is interesting seeing how other nations deal with EU law, the smoking ban springs to mind, in Holland, bar owners ignore it and instead have sealed smoking rooms in their bars, and this is aside from the coffeeshops.
They'd just find more MPs to replace the dead. And as for bombing Europe into submission that ship sailed a long time ago. Ironically the country we did bomb into the ground is now calling all the shots - except with the French who have always just done what they want and tell everyone else to bollox. Which is admirable.
And which also kind of undermines your 'We will all be enslaved by the Germans if we stay in the EU' line.
Landloper
17-05-2016, 17:06
"Heavy Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off"
Fingers crossed.
"Heavy Fog in Channel
Iain Duncan Smith spotted on Dover/Calais ferry
Landloper
17-05-2016, 17:18
'Good-bye-ee! good-bye-ee!
Wipe the tear, baby dear, from your eye-ee.
Tho' it's hard to part I know,
I'll be tickled to death to go.
Don't cry-ee! don't sigh-ee!
There's a silver lining in the sky-ee.
Bonsoir old thing, cheerio! chin chin!
Nah-poo! Toodle-oo!
Good-bye-ee!'
Arkless Electronics
17-05-2016, 17:35
If we vote to leave the EU, the Human Rights Act will be scrapped so quickly that you'll hardly have the chance to say "Theresa May". Also, the EU will be powerless to stop the Tory plans to erode the right to privacy, and our civil liberties with their Communications Data Bill, something that the EU is already citing as unlawful. I just don't trust this government enough for there not to be a layer of EU power.
+1
Plus of course brexiters are in the main racist bigots!
Ha, just tried to vote again ... :wheniwasaboy:
Project Fear strikes again...Look what the gammonfaced spunktrumpet is saying now... :rolleyes:
David Cameron says Isis and Vladimir Putin 'might be happy' with Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-david-cameron-isis-putin-brexit-a7033741.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-david-cameron-isis-putin-brexit-a7033741.html)
True what they say, you get the government you deserve...and we have.
(http://brightcove.vo.llnwd.net/v1/uds/pd/624246174001/201605/3789/624246174001_4897523790001_4897332508001.mp4?pubId =624246174001&videoId=4897332508001)
walpurgis
17-05-2016, 19:35
True what they say, you get the government you deserve...and we have.
Not me sunshine. I didn't vote for that bunch of shites!
Firebottle
17-05-2016, 19:51
Lets face it, if we all had a free vote we wouldn't vote for any 'politician', we'd vote for people who could do the country some good :mental:
Not me sunshine. I didn't vote for that bunch of shites!
Me neither moon pie :)
Apethy, a complicit media, an "I'm all right Jack" attitude and nobody with the stones to stand up to say NO MORE OF THIS to them...I despair, I really do.
Country is f*cked.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.