View Full Version : POLL: EU - stay or go?
walpurgis
10-06-2016, 09:01
Perhaps it's the impact of the migrant/immigrant numbers on population increase that is creating the demand for migrant/immigrant labour to support it?
Public transport, schools, doctor's sugeries, hospitals, housing and so on in London are all badly affected by excess demand. The problem is overcrowding. I don't give a toss who comes from where, but there are too many people after too little in the way of resouces. A solution is needed.
I was watching Question Time on BBC1 last night. Nigel Farage at one stage commented that we were not giving the EU £350million a week. He said it was more than that. He said it was actually £31million a day. With that many people as part of the panel, and loads more in the audience, I was shocked to see that nobody responded. Anyone spot the lie that Farage uttered?
I can spot an elementary arithmetical mistake; £31 million a day is actually a lot less than £350 million a week. But I don't know if that's what you meant, as the £350 million a week figure is also a lie!
Marco, this thread isn't just about Martin and me. If you have nothing to contribute other than saying how boring and pointless it is, why on earth are you even reading it? We're all being very civil and it is a lively thread...
I didn't say that the THREAD was boring (it isn't for the reasons you mention); merely the subject matter. There is a difference ;)
Anyway, I'll leave you to it :)
Marco.
Indeed!
Off-topic, I know, but that's also why answers such as: "Use whatever you think sounds best to your ears" would result in precisely the same outcome, on threads where someone has asked for recommendations on which amp to buy, or whatever - a response you're known to advocate ;)
Well, yes, but faced with entirely contradictory advice, from people who may have entirely different musical tastes/rooms/ancillary equipment from your own and each others, 'use your own ears' is ultimately the only way of deciding whose advice to follow, unless you want to be a box-swapper and try out lots of different stuff. (Nothing wrong with that, of course).
If I am arguing against what I see as a very poor argument it is not with the aim that those people change their position, but rather in the hope of exposing their poor arguments to anyone else idly reading the thread.
:)
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I dont see your point in adding my comment of being undecided as a poor argument... Typical of your attack on anyone who doesnt agree with you or it seems also those that are undecided... I have to say i am rapidly becoming disallusioned here..
Well, yes, but faced with entirely contradictory advice, from people who may have entirely different musical tastes/rooms/ancillary equipment from your own and each others, 'use your own ears' is ultimately the only way of deciding whose advice to follow, unless you want to be a box-swapper and try out lots of different stuff. (Nothing wrong with that, of course).
Yup, fully agree. However, that doesn't detract from the fact it would make for a rather dull thread [not to mention dull forum], if everyone simply followed the advice of 'use your own ears', and left it there. There would be no discussion. It would be like here, if everyone just voted on the poll, without extrapolating what made them vote that way...
The object of any thread/discussion is to get people talking, as when that's happening all sorts of info can get thrown up, often unexpected and useful stuff, mixed in with the useless and/or predictable. It's also why we actively promote 'thread drift'.
It's not up to anyone to stand as arbiter for what's 'useful' or not, correct or incorrect (in reference to anything other than fact). You just have to let things flow and judge that for yourself... :)
Marco.
StanleyB
10-06-2016, 09:26
I can spot an elementary arithmetical mistake; £31 million a day is actually a lot less than £350 million a week. But I don't know if that's what you meant, as the £350 million a week figure is also a lie!
You spotted it. And that is what makes me so worried. You and me are one of the very few who can work out such an elementary mistake.
Oldpinkman
10-06-2016, 09:31
A good post IMHO, but how much of that 36p a day is wasted in bureaucracy?
European bureaucracy is frustrating - comic in parts. It would be nice to reform some of it. But the "lost cost" bit is the same for all governments. The reality is that whether at the commune level here where we "waste" a few euros on Nicole the Mayors assistant for 3 4 hour slots a week, or whether in Brussels where somewhat more affluent full time bureaucrats are making the machine work, (or in Maidstone town hall, or in the London civil service), you have to pay people to collect taxes, authorise road building projects, and generally push paperwork around.
I think this is a nice analogy of the EU
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13406901_582336875270587_3883434103340562558_n.png ?oh=7c72b13523b7d376e4d0b6030cdddde9&oe=5803BC47
:cool:
StanleyB
10-06-2016, 09:34
Public transport, schools, doctor's sugeries, hospitals, housing and so on in London are all badly affected by excess demand. The problem is overcrowding. I don't give a toss who comes from where, but there are too many people after too little in the way of resouces. A solution is needed.
Those things were imposed on us through cutbacks and cancellations over the years by our own government, in order to fund tax cuts and bankers bailouts. The trains have been overcrowded for decades, but nobody blames the immigrants for that. We blame privatisation for that. Hospitals have been suffering from shortages for ages due to bed blocking by mainly the old, who cannot get a carer to look after them when they come out of hospital. Housing shortages have been created by our own government who forced councils to sell off council stock without replacing them. But out of convenience the blame is levelled at the feet of migrants.
Stratmangler
10-06-2016, 10:10
The trains have been overcrowded for decades, but nobody blames the immigrants for that. We blame privatisation for that
The trains were like that before privatisation.
walpurgis
10-06-2016, 10:17
out of convenience the blame is levelled at the feet of migrants.
I asked a question. But allocated no blame. It does not alter the fact that there is an overcrowding problem. Certainly here!
I dont see your point in adding my comment of being undecided as a poor argument... Typical of your attack on anyone who doesnt agree with you or it seems also those that are undecided... I have to say i am rapidly becoming disallusioned here..
Well Marco had said that no-one was going to change their position, and so I quoted you to illustrate that not everyone had made up their mind.
I'm really not at all sure how you managed to construe that as me attacking you, Grant?
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It does not alter the fact that there is an overcrowding problem. Certainly here!
No there isn't. You're just imagining it, mate. Call it 'cosy' :D
Everything's just lovely, down south, and apparently super-cheap there to insure cars, too!! ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-06-2016, 11:08
Those things were imposed on us through cutbacks and cancellations over the years by our own government, in order to fund tax cuts and bankers bailouts. The trains have been overcrowded for decades, but nobody blames the immigrants for that. We blame privatisation for that. Hospitals have been suffering from shortages for ages due to bed blocking by mainly the old, who cannot get a carer to look after them when they come out of hospital. Housing shortages have been created by our own government who forced councils to sell off council stock without replacing them. But out of convenience the blame is levelled at the feet of migrants.
It is quite correct that much is "wrong" or not as we would like, and very little of that has anything to do with the EU. When it comes to overcrowding, and particularly stretched resources in hospitals, the difficult truth at the heart of it is we all live too long these days. That increases the demands on the health service (as does the expanded range of treatments available) and demands money we don't have because people are drawing pensions not paying tax and NI. When the welfare state was created by Atlee the retirement age was set at 65 for men (and what did women matter then) and average life expectancy (actuarial tables) was 67 years old. Now we have started nudging the retirement age up to 67, but average life expectancy is over 76. The books which balanced for Attlee no longer do so - by a whopping factor. We have kicked the can down the road by solving the gap between earnings and spending by borrowing, and have reached the point where we are dangerously overcommitted, and still addicted to borrowing just to pay the interest on the debt. There has been woefully too little pension saving, and we solve that by paying "unfunded" pensions (we borrow from our children)
Membership of the EU, the contributions of EU immigrants, and other immigrants, have meant we have a bigger wealthier economy than we would otherwise have had, and that has chipped a few more quid into the pot, but it hasn't dealt with the core problem that the welfare state relied on people working from age 16 to 65, and drawing a pension for 2 years, but now they work from 22 to 67 and draw a pension (and need expensive new health care) for 9 years. And that demographic is continuing to deteriorate.
We have real problems. Blaming convenient scapegoats might make one feel better, but achieves nothing.
Life expectancy is a fair bit higher... Was 81 not that long ago...its mostly women though... Maybe we should do summat about that ;)
I'm still amused at the idea that the Turkish are a 'race'.
Good job the Nazis didn't know that when they were recruiting them into the Waffen SS.
kininigin
10-06-2016, 16:41
Reagardless of what you think about this man and some of his ideas,as far as i'm concerned he makes some very valid points in this video! I will be voting out! Not just based on this video by the way but at least 10yrs of looking at it from a different perspective. This is all i'm going to say on the matter :)
/WK8Fe26d5Mw
It is quite correct that much is "wrong" or not as we would like, and very little of that has anything to do with the EU. When it comes to overcrowding, and particularly stretched resources in hospitals, the difficult truth at the heart of it is we all live too long these days. That increases the demands on the health service (as does the expanded range of treatments available) and demands money we don't have because people are drawing pensions not paying tax and NI. When the welfare state was created by Atlee the retirement age was set at 65 for men (and what did women matter then) and average life expectancy (actuarial tables) was 67 years old. Now we have started nudging the retirement age up to 67, but average life expectancy is over 76. The books which balanced for Attlee no longer do so - by a whopping factor. We have kicked the can down the road by solving the gap between earnings and spending by borrowing, and have reached the point where we are dangerously overcommitted, and still addicted to borrowing just to pay the interest on the debt. There has been woefully too little pension saving, and we solve that by paying "unfunded" pensions (we borrow from our children)
Membership of the EU, the contributions of EU immigrants, and other immigrants, have meant we have a bigger wealthier economy than we would otherwise have had, and that has chipped a few more quid into the pot, but it hasn't dealt with the core problem that the welfare state relied on people working from age 16 to 65, and drawing a pension for 2 years, but now they work from 22 to 67 and draw a pension (and need expensive new health care) for 9 years. And that demographic is continuing to deteriorate.
We have real problems. Blaming convenient scapegoats might make one feel better, but achieves nothing.
No, but at least its is one area where we have a chance to exercise control, and whatever way you cut it (you can't have it both ways), our welfare infrastructure and staffing hasn't kept pace with uncontrolled immigration, and the strain that an aging population has presented. Whilst those that work contribute, the net contributions fall well short of what is required to shore up a failing welfare system. No one says its fair, and no one argues (or should) that immigration is the sole cause (patently, it is not) BUT it's one area where we can use a bit of common sense and try and stabilise the UK population, not keep adding to it! That is neither racist nor selfish. It is utterly selfish to carry on as we are because boy is the next generation going to pay for it. We're already one of, if not the most densely populated countries in Europe, and all projections are that by mid-century we'll be the most densely populated country in the whole of the European continent, not just in the EU. We're an island, we're under-funded as it is from taxes, so we have to exercise control where we can until we can get on top of this mess.
The country's welfare state has been mismanaged for years, as well as the ageing population putting increased burden on us but lets not blame the elderly who at present enjoy one of the lowest care standards in Europe. Its a national disgrace. Consecutive governments have chipped away at care for the elderly, introducing the concept of "care in the community" which has failed, because there's no-one to look after them! The result is that a lot of elderly people end up in hospital which is not good for them (few come out again) and not good for the welfare state (bed blocking).
Reagardless of what you think about this man and some of his ideas,as far as i'm concerned he makes some very valid points in this video! I will be voting out! Not just based on this video by the way but at least 10yrs of looking at it from a different perspective. This is all i'm going to say on the matter :)
/WK8Fe26d5Mw
I too fear being ruled by shape-shifting giant lizards!
Dont we all. but its no surprise Dave is for out; it wouldnt be him if there was no massive conspiracy, which of course there is :eek:
I too fear being ruled by shape-shifting giant lizards!
Sounds like a perfectly good description to me of the Royal family - I could come up with far worse! ;)
A Royalist I am not... Ridiculously outdated pish, as far as I'm concerned.
In any case, I agree with Darren. In this instance, Icke talks a lot of sense. Think of him what you like, and some of his views are, shall we say, a little 'out there', but I admire his ability to think outside of the box and not become, rather ignorantly like most of us, a puppet for the desires of the 'elite' or the power-hungry establishment, who seek to control us for their greater good (read as greed).
There are, I feel, parallels to be drawn between the EU referendum and the Scottish one, just passed, as the outcome is almost as predictable for the same reasons [in the end, the money men always get what they want], and where the scaremongering from Cameron et al, and others who are in the pockets of the elite, had (and is having) a similar effect on the outcome.
Marco.
Dont we all. but its no surprise Dave is for out; it wouldnt be him if there was no massive conspiracy, which of course there is :eek:
Indeed.
Marco.
Think of him what you like, and some of his views are, shall we say, a little 'out there', but I admire his ability to think outside of the box and not become, rather ignorantly like most of us, a puppet for the desires of the 'elite' or the power-hungry establishment, who seek to control us for their greater good (read as greed).
Well, I don't regard myself as a puppet for the desires of the elite and I'm sure you feel the same about yourself. Does anyone here on AoS feel that they are such a puppet?
I think Icke has carved himself out a role as a (well-paid) anti-establishment hero, but his ideas are so confused it's hard to know how seriously he believes what he says.
Well, I don't regard myself as a puppet for the desires of the elite and I'm sure you feel the same about yourself. Does anyone here on AoS feel that they are such a puppet?
I think Icke has carved himself out a role as a (well-paid) anti-establishment hero, but his ideas are so confused it's hard to know how seriously he believes what he says.
had a few medical things up there but not a hand so far :D
Well, I don't regard myself as a puppet for the desires of the elite and I'm sure you feel the same about yourself. Does anyone here on AoS feel that they are such a puppet?
Perhaps not consciously, but in many ways that's what we've slowly become, through being surreptitiously 'led' into that position by successive governments, themselves controlled by the establishment. At the end of the day, the Rothschild family, and other prominent members of the elite, pretty much control the world, with you or I simply pawns in their ultimate plans...
*That* is the reality!
I think Icke has carved himself out a role as a (well-paid) anti-establishment hero, but his ideas are so confused it's hard to know how seriously he believes what he says.
Like most people, there are 'nuggets' of truth in what he says, amongst the bullshit, but the difference between him and most others is that he's able to look beyond the obvious (what we're being 'programmed' to believe) and see the brainwashing that's taking place, and by whom.
Marco.
Perhaps not consciously, but in many ways that's what we've slowly become, through being surreptitiously 'led' into that position by successive governments, themselves controlled by the establishment. At the end of the day, the Rothschild family, and other prominent members of the elite, pretty much control the world, with you or a I simply pawns in their ultimate plans...
If you're saying the world is run by powerful people, then of course you're right, but it's always been that way; the elites have changed, that's all. Personally I have far more 'freedom' than my parents or grandparents ever had, and the machinations of the elite happen so far above my head that they don't bother me, or even affect me as far as I can tell.
Bloody hell I don't look at my phone for a few hours and you guys have gone all tin foil hats, and are taking David Icke seriously!
They must have been doing some heavy spraying from the jetliners today!!
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kininigin
10-06-2016, 20:40
Bloody hell I don't look at my phone for a few hours and you guys have gone all tin foil hats, and are taking David Icke seriously!
They must have been doing some heavy spraying from the jetliners today!!
Wearing tin foil hats amplifies the signal ;)
It's a shame that most people,by reflex action,discount information out of hand because it comes from someone who just simply looks at the world in a different way! Yes some of his ideas are 'out there' but that's just a matter of persective and you can just choose to ignore it and concentrate on what he is saying in relation to this subject! Or not,as the case may be :)
Did you actually watch the video posted? If so,i would be interested in your opinion of what he said in it from your viewpoint.
Wearing tin foil hats amplifies the signal ;)
It's a shame that most people,by reflex action,discount information out of hand because it comes from someone who just simply looks at the world in a different way! Yes some of his ideas are 'out there' but that's just a matter of persective and you can just choose to ignore it and concentrate on what he is saying in relation to this subject! Or not,as the case may be :)
sure.. I mean this love thy neighbour thing. crazy idea...I hate mine;) but he did say some other cool stuff
I think I may have finally found a REMAIN argument that we can all rally behind...
http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/2016/06/a-statement-on-europe/
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walpurgis
10-06-2016, 23:03
I think I may have finally found a REMAIN argument that we can all rally behind...
I see you remain optimistic.
Could this mean the end of Scottish Scotch? I'm convinced :eek:
walpurgis
10-06-2016, 23:12
It could mean hamburgers are no longer recognised as the traditional Hampshire snack.
Where will it end. I love you eu
Sorry. Shame overload. This is serious folks
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I'm out and nowt's going to change my mind. Don't fancy being subservient to a bunch of pen pushers on the EU gravytrain. Also fed up with crowded surgeries, hospitals, classrooms etc. (Waiting to be called a racist now).
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 07:55
I'm out and nowt's going to change my mind. Don't fancy being subservient to a bunch of pen pushers on the EU gravytrain. Also fed up with crowded surgeries, hospitals, classrooms etc. (Waiting to be called a racist now).
I think you'll just be disappointed. If the cause of crowded surgeries, hospitals, classrooms etc is EU membership, then leaving will wave a magic wand. I think you may discover Harry Potter is wonderful fantasy, but no real wands get waved. It's like having a flat tyre on a car and deciding to change the oil to fix it. And then discovering the tyre dealership is not interested in stocking your tyre any more. You could change the oil again I suppose.
What you are likely to find is a collapsed pound (already happening) more expensive food and essentials, falling house prices and rising unemployment. With reduced tax revenues, more crowded hospitals, surgeries...
Have fun. I am living in an EU country with first class health care, good roads, schools with classes limited to 30. We stayed in a B&B in Normandy on the way down. The English owner had a minor hernia. Phoned for an appointment with the GP on Thursday, seen by the GP Thursday, referred to the specialist of his choice Friday, who couldn't operate on Monday because it was a bank holiday, so operated Tuesday. We have to contribute a bit to our public health care - only about 85% is covered by th "NHS" so it cost him about £35. The health care in this EU country is second to none - among the very best in the world.
Are you sure leaving the EU is going to fix the problems you complain of? I don't think changing the oil will fix a flat tyre personally, but I'm sure you know better.
Just remember - I am staying in the EU, and will continue to get first class health care ;)
If France is so wonderful why are there thousands of economic migrants camped at Calais and risking their lives to get into Britain?
I asked someone in the Border Agency what the deal is with this. According to him it is because there are already established communities in the UK of the same nationality who will offer them support if they get over here.
When I suggested that it may be more the case that they can't get as easy access to free money where they are now because the French hang onto it like their balls, he just smiled.
Population density per square kilometere
France 111
UK 269
If we need more people to be wealthier then the French must really be struggling.
If France is so wonderful why are there thousands of economic migrants camped at Calais and risking their lives to get into Britain?
Almost anywhere is wonderful to live if you have a roof over you're head and you're financially secure... Pinky, Grant's right, that was poncy post. 'I'm all right, Jack, f*ck you' is never an attractive stance to take.
Marco.
Did you actually watch the video posted? If so,i would be interested in your opinion of what he said in it from your viewpoint.
Robert, you've avoided answering this question, which Darren asked, so did you watch the video or not?
Marco.
I'd forgive him if he didn't, it is David Icke after all. Having said that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I'd forgive him if he didn't, it is David Icke after all. Having said that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
OK; let's take one of his big statements. 'The EU is increasingly dictating the fine details of our everyday lives'. Really? Can anyone give any examples of this, apart from Boris Johnson's 'You can't buy a bunch of more than three bananas', which is clearly a lie as I bought a bunch of six in Sainsbury only yesterday. Apart from that, Icke's shifting about in his chair makes me ill. Can't he afford a proper studio, and/or s director to tell him to keep still for more than a few seconds?
I'd forgive him if he didn't, it is David Icke after all. Having said that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Lol... What amuses me about human nature is the automatic tendency to ridicule the opinions of heretics or those who are willing to challenge the 'accepted norm'. I love heretics!
It's good to be occasionally forced out of your comfort zone, and look at things in a different way compared to how you normally would. It can certainly help disable the brainwashing chip, implanted by 'Big Brother', and allow access to some reality.. ;)
Marco.
Robert, you've avoided answering this question, which Darren asked, so did you watch the video or not?
Marco.
Of course not, Marco.
Please# don't automatically jump to conclusions and try to paint this as me being closed minded and automatically dismissing anything because I have been brainwashed. It's sometimes interesting to see what he is trying to flag up, but ultimately he believes that we are all being controlled by lizards and he goes on far too long. If he's right about the lizards then we're probably better off not knowing...
How on earth is anyone interpreting Old Pinkman's post as arrogant? The NHS is underfunded, therefore it seems crowded.
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Of course not, Marco.
Ok, so you're not qualified to comment on its contents. Cool :)
How on earth is anyone interpreting Old Pinkman's post as arrogant? The NHS is underfunded, therefore it seems crowded.
I don't think anyone's arguing that the NHS isn't underfunded, but it's the general tone of the post which could be construed as arrogant, as it smacks of 'I'm all right, Jack'. That's Pinky sometimes, though! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
11-06-2016, 09:23
How on earth is anyone interpreting Old Pinkman's post as arrogant?
How on earth could somebody not register the derisory tone.
This thread is going around in circles. Many differing positions and of course nobody getting anywhere, because nobody ever wins an argument.
How on earth could somebody not register the derisory tone.
Maybe it's a 'southerner' thing? Arrogance is considered as natural, lol. Scratch that, you live in London and sussed it! ;)
Marco.
Ok, so you're not qualified to comment on its contents. Cool :)
.
1. I didn't
2. I am
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How on earth could somebody not register the derisory tone.
I did register the derisory tone.
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Lol... What amuses me about human nature is the automatic tendency to ridicule the opinions of heretics or those who are willing to challenge the 'accepted norm'. I love heretics!
But how can you tell whether the heretic in question is actually talking sense, or just being bat-shit crazy? Scientific heretics like Galileo or Darwin can eventually be proved right, because science eventually produced better observations to endorse their theories. That is not the case with religious or philosophical heretics, who simply state an opinion that is contradictory to accepted wisdom and/or to what the religious authorities assert; it's basically one opinion versus another, and neither opinion is intrinsically better or worse.
1. I didn't
2. I am
Only in your head. You can't possibly be qualified to comment, with any kind of authority, on something you haven't listened to. It's like me saying I know that your system sounds pish because I've heard all of the components before, but not in your room or with your speakers.
I did register the derisory tone.
So how can you then say:
How on earth is anyone interpreting Old Pinkman's post as arrogant?
You're contradicting yourself! :doh:
Marco.
But how can you tell whether the heretic in question is actually talking sense, or just being bat-shit crazy?
Gut instinct and/or they appear (to you) to talk a lot of sense, or most importantly, in a way you hadn't considered before, which you believe reveals the truth. Aside from that, I'm intrinsically 'wired' to rebel against, or at least robustly question, currently accepted wisdom and dogma, if it contradicts what I fundamentally believe to be true.
I dislike rigid thinking.
Marco.
Only in your head. You can't possibly be qualified to comment, in any kind of authority, on something you haven't listened to.
At the risk of repeating myself:
1. I didn't comment on the contents of the video.
2. I believe that I am qualified to comment on David Icke, because I have been seeing him talk about things off and on for thirty years or so.
So how can you then say:
You're contradicting yourself! :doh:
Because "derisory" and "arrogant" are not synonyms.
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Gut instinct and/or they appear (to you) to talk a lot of sense, or most importantly, in a way you hadn't considered before that you believe reveals the truth.
So, basically, it's when they say something you agree with.
Aside from that, I'm intrinsically 'wired' to rebel against, or at least question, currently accepted wisdom, if it contradicts what I fundamentally believe to be true.
Marco.
I'm not. In most cases, 'currently accepted wisdom' is the culmination of centuries of research, so it's more than likely that it's correct, and that someone challenging it is either loopy or has an agenda. That's certainly the case with scientific heretics (for example the doctor who campaigned, with disastrous results, against the MMR vaccination). Religious heretics are a different matter; who is to say whether Luther was right to rebel against the authority of the Pope, or the Unitarians to deny the doctrine of the Trinity, or the Calvinists to say that we are predestined to be damned or saved?
At the risk of repeating myself:
2. I believe that I am qualified to comment on David Icke, because I have been seeing him talk about things off and on for thirty years or so.
Yes, you're qualified to comment on David Icke, in general, but unless you've watched it, not on the contents of that video. Simples :)
Because "derisory" and "arrogant" are not synonyms.
Now you're clutching at straws. That may be the case, but they convey a similar message. "Derisory", in the context concerned, means to scoff or to mock, both of which portray arrogance.
That aside, so I presume then you're condoning a derisory attitude? However you cut it, being derisory towards others is not an attractive trait, which is what Geoff and Grant, me included, picked up on earlier with Pinky's post.
Marco.
So, basically, it's when they say something you agree with.
Well yes, partly. Isn't that the normal thing to do, and what everyone ultimately does when they vote for a particular politician or the policies of a political party?
I'm not
That's fine. I am. I often find it advantageous, as indeed I do not automatically dismissing the views of people that don't conform to what is deemed by the majority as 'correct', or 'how we've been programmed to think' by those with arguably ulterior motives :)
Marco (a free-thinker forever)!
Yes, you're qualified to comment on David Icke, in general, but unless you've watched it, not on the contents of that video. Simples :)
.
I'm really struggling to see what your point is, Marco. For the third time:
I didn't comment on the contents of the video.
Now you're clutching at straws. That may be the case, but they convey a similar message. So, I presume then you're condoning a derisory attitude? However you cut it, being derisory towards others is not an attractive trait, which is what Geoff and Grant, me included, picked up on earlier with Pinky's post.
Whichever way you cut it Marco, the words do not mean the same thing. You may of course presume whatever you wish.
Meanwhile, if anyone has any time left after the David Icke video, there is a lot of information and opinion here, which you are all free to look at, ignore, or of course simply dismiss as part of the "conspiracy of experts". Sadly I don't think there are any lizards, but I haven't looked through all of it:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/LSE-Commission/LSE-Commission-on-the-Future-of-Britain-in-Europe.aspx
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I'm really struggling to see what your point is, Marco. For the third time:
I didn't comment on the contents of the video.
It's quite simple. I know you didn't comment on the contents of the video, so in turn, as you didn't watch it, you're not qualified to comment on its contents.
Please embrace and accept that fact, lest you feel that you're also qualified to comment with authority [the key point here] on other things in life you haven't seen or experienced.
That's my point. Accept it, and we can end this argument and all go to the pub! :D :cool:
Marco.
It's quite simple. I know you didn't comment on the contents of the video, so in turn, as you didn't watch it, you're not qualified to comment on its contents.
Exactly.
A good point and well made.
I agree.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
Nice one! And now.................... :champagne: :carrot: :carrot: :barrel: :barrel: :drunk:
Marco.
Marco (a free-thinker forever)!
Does that extend to theological matters?
Yes, when appropriate :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 12:17
If France is so wonderful why are there thousands of economic migrants camped at Calais and risking their lives to get into Britain?
I asked someone in the Border Agency what the deal is with this. According to him it is because there are already established communities in the UK of the same nationality who will offer them support if they get over here.
When I suggested that it may be more the case that they can't get as easy access to free money where they are now because the French hang onto it like their balls, he just smiled.
Because they have relations already living in England, and speak better English than French. You speak as ever from ignorance - we know English residents in our new neighbourhood on long term benefits in France.
Oh - I see the man at the border agency already made that point. It's true, doesn't fit your prejudices, and so you must ignore it and assert your secret wisdom. I don't think your wisdom will make any difference to hospital queues, nut it will bring you the comfort of superior knowledge.
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 12:21
Population density per square kilometere
France 111
UK 269
If we need more people to be wealthier then the French must really be struggling.
Were those statistics for Paris and London? Why do I bother? You believe what you believe. If you leave the EU you will just have to carry on believing it when nothing changes. Have I missed the comment that says the hospitals in France offer good service because there are fewer immigrants than in the UK (very marginally). The highest level of immigration in the EU and all Europe is Luxembourg. Have you seen their hospitals and health service (Sue's cousin lives there)
:rolleyes:
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 12:25
Almost anywhere is wonderful to live if you have a roof over you're head and you're financially secure... Pinky, Grant's right, that was poncy post. 'I'm all right, Jack, f*ck you' is never an attractive stance to take.
Marco.
Nonsense. It was pointing out that EU membership and hospital waiting lists are not correlated. Rather than express airy certainties that the hospitals in the UK are overcrowded due to EU membership, it pointed out, with direct personal experience, that EU membership has nothing to do with it. Blaming the wrong cause is typical of the Leave campaign and makes them feel better, but will achieve jack shit. That is a confident prediction and obvious truism.
It's a reality - France, in the EU has an exceptional health service available to all French residents - and actually, for that matter, on a reimbursed basis for UK residents at the moment, because they are also members of the EU. It just proves that leaving the EU won't fix your health service
Please don't ever refer to anyone else's valid opinion as "nonsense". That's something we have zero tolerance for here, and you should know that by now.
I'm not going to dispute the rest of your post, as not knowing enough about the subject, I'm not qualified to judge. However, I am qualified to tell you that your earlier post came across (whether it was intended or not) as arrogant and derisory, the latter which was also picked up by Robert, and neither of which are amiable traits or what we expect here from our members.
That's it, so please alter that tone in future, as it's not one that I'm comfortable hosting. This matter is not up for debate either, so any 'back chat' will simply be removed.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 13:15
Please don't ever refer to anyone else's valid opinion as "nonsense". That's something we have zero tolerance for here, and you should know that by now.
I'm not going to dispute the rest of your post, as not knowing enough about the subject, I'm not qualified to judge. However, I am qualified to tell you that your earlier post came across (whether it was intended or not) as arrogant and derisory, the latter which was also picked up by Robert, and neither of which are amiable traits or what we expect here from our members.
That's it, so please alter that tone in future, as it's not one that I'm comfortable hosting. This matter is not up for debate either, so any 'back chat' will simply be removed.
Marco.
OK Marco - I considered your response irrelevant to the point I made. I said "France has a better health care system than England" and you said "Anywhere is nicer to live if you have a roof over your head". I think your response is completely irrelevant to the point I made. There are people with roofs over their head in England and there are long waits for health care there. There are people without roofs over their heads in France, and there are no queues at all for health care in France. The standard of health care and waiting lists, for all , in both countries, has nothing to do with whether anyone has a roof over his head. It is entirely due to government choice and resourcing. I completely fail to understand the point you were making. Please explain it
Landloper
11-06-2016, 13:24
Those worthy of the appellation MEN refuse to put a price on their Liberty.
Were those statistics for Paris and London? Why do I bother?
:rolleyes:
!) No they are for both countries as a whole including all the empty space. That's how you measure the population density of a country.
2) I hadn't realised you were bothering since you tend to argue against what you think I said rather than what I did say. I've never mentioned Brexit improving the NHS for instance. I don't think it will, although it won't hurt.
your earlier post came across (whether it was intended or not) as arrogant and derisory, the latter which was also picked up by Robert.
If you insist on dragging me into it again, I thought the derision was admirably restrained.
[emoji41]
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
I completely fail to understand the point you were making. Please explain it
It was a general observation, nothing to do with the specific points you were making, relating to the rather conceited tone of how you were putting those points across.
Observe your post #536, noting these comments in particular:
Have fun. I am living in an EU country with first class health care, good roads, schools with classes limited to 30...
"Have fun", etc... If you don't think remarks like that sound conceited/scoffing/mocking/arrogant/derisory in tone (delete as applicable), then your mind works rather different from mine.
Also:
I don't think changing the oil will fix a flat tyre personally, but I'm sure you know better.... Just remember - I am staying in the EU, and will continue to get first class health care ;)
In other words: "Haha, I'm all right Jack, feck you".
Note also underneath the immediate reaction from Grant, when he replied: "Pretty arrogant post". He was picking up on your tone, more than the points you were making to support your argument. That says it all.
Anyway, it's a communication issue, which you can learn from, not an attack on the validity, or otherwise, of your political views. Let's move on! :)
Marco.
If you insist on dragging me into it again, I thought the derision was admirably restrained.
If I insist on dragging you into it again? I'm only quoting what you wrote. It's you who's dragging yourself back in!
There is never an acceptable excuse for derision, "admirably restrained" or otherwise, when supposedly educated, well behaved adults are conducting a debate. Play the ball, not the man. Use your intelligence and argue your point of view without deriding anyone or their opinions. It's impolite and completely unnecessary.
In fact, let me rephrase that: I'm insisting that no deriding of any member here, or their P.O.V will be allowed, as that's when things start getting personal, and you know already from experience where that leads! ;)
Play nice, and stick solely to debating the subject matter, without making things personal, or next time the thread will be locked permanently.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 14:41
Population density per square kilometere
France 111
UK 269
If we need more people to be wealthier then the French must really be struggling.
That's interesting. Is it relevant to the standard of health care or the queues to receive it? If so, could you explain how?
My point, a simple one is that EU membership is irrelevant to health care queues. France and the UK are both EU members - so it is common to both countries. France has zero queues - immediate treatment. EU membership is not the cause of the queues in the UK. Healthcare funding is (I should note there is no such thing as a free lunch, and the French have eye-wateringly painful levels of NI equivalent social charges to pay for it, and arguably that is at least partly responsible for their unemployment rate being nearly double the UK's)
If you keep blaming the wrong cause of a problem, when you change it, the problem will remain. If EU membership is not the cause of the queues - changing it will make no difference. If the UK leaves the EU , the UK will continue to have crowded doctors surgeries, and France, which will remain in the EU won't.
Not a good reason for leaving. Too obvious to need repeating
For those still undecided or living in some fantasy world about the EU being good for British jobs, lets have a little look at what's happened with the full colusion of the UK government over the past few years (some content kindly reproduced from notes made by Kevin Mackay, SEO EEAPS):
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,..
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the
pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
This from Kevin Mackay (note: Marco, please have the good manners not to edit something I've written with nonsense...I have credited Kevin, quite rightly so you had no right to alter that):
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.
Great post Paul, but bloody hard to read without getting rather angry.
Indeed, but may I ask who's Kevin?
Marco.
Indeed, but may I ask who's Kevin?
Marco.
Kevin Bacon. He's the new Brexit frontman.
Great post Paul, but bloody hard to read without getting rather angry.
I read it without getting even slightly annoyed.
Ah, I see. Don't know him, but then I don't follow these things. I'll add 'Bacon' to Paul's post, in case anyone else is thinking the same thing :)
Marco.
I read it without getting even slightly annoyed.
Try it again, whilst sitting on a hat pin.
Marco.
walpurgis
11-06-2016, 16:39
Kevin Bacon. He's the new Brexit frontman.
I thought Kevin Bacon was an American actor. Perhaps the correct 'Bacon' in this context is Richard Bacon MP?
Try it again, whilst sitting on a hat pin.
Marco.
A hatpin? What century are you living in? I don't even own a hat.
I thought Kevin Bacon was an American actor. Perhaps the correct 'Bacon' in this context is Richard Bacon MP?
I thought it was Kevin, not Richard? Now I *am* confused! :D
See what happens when you automatically presume everyone knows who you're talking about, so to save time only use a first name? ;)
Marco.
I'm pleased that my opinion on leaving hasn't been totally undermined. A cracking post Paul. As for Pinky - no comment.
A hatpin? What century are you living in? I don't even own a hat.
Yes, but they're usually about 6 inches long, with a nice sharp point, hence 'evil' enough to induce pain in all but those with the most padded of bums!
Marco.
A hatpin? What century are you living in?
One behind most of us I think, must be the relaxed Welsh lifestyle I reckon. :)
Oldpinkman
11-06-2016, 21:01
For those still undecided or living in some fantasy world about the EU being good for British jobs, lets have a little look at what's happened with the full colusion of the UK government over the past few years (some content kindly reproduced from notes made by Kevin Mackay, SEO EEAPS):
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,..
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the
pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
This from Kevin Bacon:
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.
Hmm. I'm sure every economic expert is wrong. It's a great list. But because the pavements are wet, does that make it rain?
Next you'll be talking about seagulls and fishing trawlers... ;)
Marco.
Sorry, but I am too tempted to input some words from a central european perspective:
- UK car industry was already on the decline in 1970. I used to drive a – then rather ancient – Austin 1100 around 1989, which was very fine engineering done to an appalling quality standard
- Industries all over Europe have disappeared since the 1980ies. You can no longer buy Austrian shirt cloth and 90% of all garments are made outside of the European Union.
- If you want to buy "local" that is still possible, but first compare prices of Martens shoes made in UK to those made in Vietnam or China
- Are you prepared to pay the premium?
And remember the "great success" when thatcherism privatised all former state owned businesses like British Rail and other sensitive infrastructure companies?
So industry workers are doomed to lose their jobs as they have lost them in the past. Only with increasing pace as manufacturing goes to "China" and profits to tax havens.
Seen from a Central European (Austria) perspective the UK has become increasingly expensive. For the price of Fish and Chips I can get a Soup a main dish and a soft drink in a – rather simple but clean – restaurant in my neighborhood. Plus am sitting while eating with steel fork and knife. Food to go is a lot cheaper …
Seen from Austria the UK got a lot of special deals from the EU plus the finance capital of Europe plus some nice tax havens on the channel islands. There is no envy from my side, the UK drove a hard bargain and reaped a lot of benefits – congrats!
If that is not enough, imho the UK can pack and leave anytime. We might see more industry leaving the UK, we might or might not see the financial capital of Europe move to Frankfurt. It will be very interesting and entertaining for all spectators and all involved.
tbh we customers drove the industry out of Europe by buying from multinationals manufacturing in cheap labor countries abroad and letting them wheedle their profits away to tax havens. This cost the lesser qualified 1/3 of society their income, aspirations and visions. Exactly these less intelligent 1/3 is now played and exploited by populist (sic!) parties all over Europe. Rather similar to the 1930ies.
Nobody has any viable ideas how to get the jobs for the 50% of workers living by definition below the intelligence median back. But this or some other means of financing their lives plus opening opportunities for their children is what will have to happen. The nationalist propaganda will help nobody.
Believe me – Austria has been there and done that from 2000 to 2006. Populist polititians getting their go at government. Justice is still trying to work out who quickly and greedily filled their pockets and whether it was a criminal offense to do so or not. The damage at Hypo Bank Carinthia alone is around 20 Mrd EUR (20.000.000.000,– EUR).
The exact same people are on the rise again and got nearly 50% at the presidential election some weeks ago. The innovation losers voting for them have already forgotten how much tuition and schooling the money lost could have bought for their children. Or how many refugees we could have welcomed, or or or or …
I don’t believe polititians anymore. They run their parties to maximise voter’s numbers and MP’s incomes. Not to benefit their country and their voters. Be careful who you trust and what to expect from the rabble you vote into power …
sorry for the rant
Michael
StanleyB
11-06-2016, 21:54
Next you'll be talking about seagulls and fishing trawlers... ;)
Marco.
I am still amazed up to this day that not one single Englishman or woman did not understand what Cantona was referring to. It was so obviously clear to me, but then again I had a multilingual education.
Not at all Michael. I agree with much of it. Politicians have ever been trustworthy no matter where or when. Personally I am not really in favour of referendums as a whole. They are not worth the paper that will be wasted
Stratmangler
11-06-2016, 22:03
I am still amazed up to this day that not one single Englishman or woman did not understand what Cantona was referring to. It was so obviously clear to me, but then again I had a multilingual education.
I'm English, and I'm sure that I'm not the only Englishman to get what Cantona was alluding to.
However, Marco is not English, so your comment falls upon the sharp rocks.
That's quite an arrogant comment.
Almost derisory, in fact.
StanleyB
11-06-2016, 22:33
That's quite an arrogant comment.
I'm English, and I'm sure that I'm not the only Englishman to get what Cantona was alluding to.
However, Marco is not English, so your comment falls upon the sharp rocks.
OK, explain it to me then what he meant.
StanleyB
11-06-2016, 22:34
Almost derisory, in fact.
And the same goes for you too. What did Cantona mean?
No. It wasn't Kevin Bacon. It wasn't even remotely Kevin bacon. (where the heck did that come from? :scratch:)
Irrespective, forget Kev; the facts that were in that post are incontrovertible as they remain within the public domain. Do your homework peeps. The EU Federal parliament is toxic as is our government. Wake up and smell the coffee. Vote "out" if you actually want a future for the UK. Vote "remain" if you want to sink us.
Stratmangler
11-06-2016, 22:46
It relates directly to Cantona's being hounded by the press.
"For those still undecided or living in some fantasy world about the EU being good for British jobs, lets have a little look at what's happened with the full colusion of the UK government over the past few years (some content kindly reproduced from notes made by Kevin Mackay, SEO EEAPS):"
What an utterly pointless list ...
A range of companies and industries many of which were sold off to anyone interested in taking them on many decades ago after chronic mismanagement by their British owners - and which have changed hand innumerable times since.
Some were never even British to start with and vested here when it was pertinent to their foreign (read US) owners to expand their European production lines. I doubt the current owners would give a toss where they were based as long as profits can be maximised so If EU grants can at least keep them in this part of the globe that is a triumph.
Are you seriously trying to say that if we left the EU these global agencies would suddenly change their mind and have them all moved back to the UK? - or that if we hadn't been in the EU before they moved it wouldn't have happened?
Say it ain't so.....
I've never understood this 'British owned' thing or why it matters. Especially when it is the people who are otherwise avowedly anti-nationalistic who bring it up.
As long as they are employing people in Britain what does it matter who owns the majority shareholding.
I could go on line now and buy shares in Nissan. Would that make it any less 'Japanese'?
One thing you notice about all these 'grants' that the EU and government in general have to hand out. Millions of pounds of our money with all manner of companies and organizations desperate for it. What a great way to have massive corruption.
This is the problem, government has far too much latitude in how it spends our money. The more government you have the more of our money they need for themselves and to pour into the trough for the hangers-on.
One thing you notice about all these 'grants' that the EU and government in general have to hand out. Millions of pounds of our money with all manner of companies and organizations desperate for it. What a great way to have massive corruption.
Grants, like Tax incentives, are effectively a means of legally 'bribing' global companies to stay or settle in your area (bringing jobs, prosperity, etc. etc.) No international business is going to do it out of some weird altruism if there isn't a sound strategic position to be gained per se. And none will choose the UK purely because 'they used to make good cars, yummy chocolates, power turbines' a hundred years ago.
As to who owns it and where they come from - couldn't give a toss either way, Dyson is a Brit but gets all his sucking stuff made in Malaysia - so much for Britain's 'skills base' and any sense of 'patriotism'
As long as they are employing people in Britain what does it matter who owns the majority shareholding.
Give me one good reason why any global company would want to have a base here or employ people in the UK in your fabulous post-Brexit paradise?
(other than in a bunch of distribution centres to flog us their crap)
The remainders remind me of the members of the band playing on the Titanic. If the UK votes to leave I reckon the EU will be in deep doodoos.
However, sad as it seems the referendum will probably go the same way as the Scottish version - the silent majority will vote for the status quo. More's the pity.
Oldpinkman
12-06-2016, 05:23
The remainders remind me of the members of the band playing on the Titanic. If the UK votes to leave I reckon the EU will be in deep doodoos.
However, sad as it seems the referendum will probably go the same way as the Scottish version - the silent majority will vote for the status quo. More's the pity.
I'm sure the EU will suffer if the UK leaves. As will the global economy. But that sentiment is poor Adam Smith. We should be working to enhance our prosperity and peace by working towards European and global integration and harmony and prosperity, not taking comfort that the pain we have suffered by shooting ourselves in the foot has caused nasty injuries to others with the ricochet from the shrapnel
Virtual-Symmetry
12-06-2016, 05:51
So you think the UK will be worse off than it is now? Doubt that some how. Something Radical has to happen to this country to get it back on it's feet & i truly believe out the EU is the answer
Another thing reading most these threads, i have to feeling people are thinking about what is best for themselves & not the country.
Well the board voting this morning is 49.19%/49.19%
Oldpinkman
12-06-2016, 06:21
So you think the UK will be worse off than it is now? Doubt that some how. Something Radical has to happen to this country to get it back on it's feet & i truly believe out the EU is the answer
Another thing reading most these threads, i have to feeling people are thinking about what is best for themselves & not the country.
Well the board voting this morning is 49.19%/49.19%
No Andre. Every single qualified independent expert body competent to comment thinks the UK will be significantly worse off financially and economically if the UK leaves. I just don't share Maccas view that they are all corrupt or incompetent and in a conspiracy to deceive the British public for their own ends. It's an imprecise science economic forecasting but not that imprecise.
Give me one good reason why any global company would want to have a base here or employ people in the UK in your fabulous post-Brexit paradise?
(other than in a bunch of distribution centres to flog us their crap)
I work for a global company and they would have a pretty tough time doing business here without employing anyone.
It is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of - well we've lost track haven't we? - but let's say 70 million. You really think they need much encouragement to have a slice of that market?
And the same goes for you too. What did Cantona mean?
I dunno. In fact, I'd forgotten what 'derisory' means. It doesn't mean 'derisive', though the words are related.
I am still amazed up to this day that not one single Englishman or woman did not understand what Cantona was referring to. It was so obviously clear to me, but then again I had a multilingual education.
Check your double negatives; you are in effect saying that you are surprised that every single Englishman or woman did understand Cantona.
. It's an imprecise science economic forecasting but not that imprecise.
Economics is like particle physics. If you think you understand it then it is certain you don't.
There is no way to predict outcomes without knowing what sort of deal will be negotiated post-Brexit. So all those 'expert bodies' are just making it up as they go along. Remember in 2007 they warned us about the big financial crash that was going to happen? Oh no, wait a minute!
Remember when they advised that the Euro would be a disaster for the economies of Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal? No, neither do I. Experts my ass. Why do some people believe everything they are told by 'experts' despite past performance? Because, like Fox Mulder, they want to believe. I'm not that gullible, sorry.
walpurgis
12-06-2016, 09:06
Experts my ass. Why do some people believe everything they are told by 'experts' despite past performance? Because, like Fox Mulder, they want to believe. I'm not that gullible, sorry.
Nice one. Now separate the facts from the lies we are told. Impossible.
Experts my ass. Why do some people believe everything they are told by 'experts' despite past performance?
He's right you know.
Take airline pilots for example. It is a demonstrable fact that every single plane that has been involved in a fatal air crash was being flown by a qualified pilot, a so-called "expert" in flying. It's outrageous that with such an incontrovertible correlation these murderous airlines force us to gamble with our lives by refusing to employ unqualified pilots, and thus give us all a fair chance of life.
#######
I'm a bit puzzled by all the nonsense about what Cantona said. It is quite obvious what he meant, but it's all just so much thread-crapping, which is bizarrely seems to be acceptable on this thread. If anyone really wants to discuss it they should start a new thread, please.
#########
Also, I would like to complain about Paul's tone and the wild inconsistency in the moderation of this thread that, were I a paranoid man might lead me to think that I was being victimised. Somehow my light-heartedly saying that I found someone else's derisive tone restrained warranted my being sent a PM warning me that I was overstepping the line of acceptable behaviour. Yet Paul is allowed to get away with such arrogant and derisive comments as these:
Do your homework peeps..... Wake up and smell the coffee..... Vote "out" if you actually want a future for the UK. Vote "remain" if you want to sink us.
For those still undecided or living in some fantasy world
I should point out of course SMILEY FACE :) WINKING FACE ;) that I have no problem with what Paul has said here (apart from the fact that I think he is wildly wrong and has yet to apologise for falsely accusing me of calling him racist, which also went unchallenged by the moderators!), I am just using it to point out inconsistencies.
Rx
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Watching Cameron on Andrew Marr this morning pushing the 'risks' of leaving. Of course there are 'risks' in staying too which didn't get a mention. Other side could be accused in the same way of course.
I'm not going to moderate every little thing on this thread. If anyone is sensitive enough to care about the content of someone's rebuttal of what they have said then best not to post in it.
Not aiming that at you, Robert, but just to make the general point. If you are the sort who gets emotional about politics then best to avoid political discussions, I think.
I don't get your point about airline pilots either. A qualified pilot is not necessarily an 'expert' pilot, and a lot of plane crashes are caused by pilot error, sometimes by pilots with 10K plus hours.
walpurgis
12-06-2016, 09:43
the fact that I think he is wildly wrong and has yet to apologise for falsely accusing me of calling him racist, which also went unchallenged by the moderators!
In my case, that would be 'cause I don't have the interest to read all the never ending input here.
I'd sooner look at threads about something more important, like cars or Hi-Fi even
I don't get your point about airline pilots either.
It was satire.
You seem to have taken it seriously, which is rather wonderful.
[emoji41]
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Maybe because it doesn't work as satire?
Guys,
I've just removed a load of provocation, threats and aggro, last night between Stan and Chris, and PM'd both to say that said behaviour is completely unacceptable.
Now, if I see even the slightest bit more evidence of anyone aiming threats or personal remarks towards another member, the thread will be closed permanently and those guilty - and I don't care who they are - banned for a week.
I trust that I've made myself clear! Right, carry on and try and engage in discussion, whilst behaving as adults.
Marco.
Maybe because it doesn't work as satire?
Martin, that is a matter of opinion on which we will have to agree to differ. It's lovely that you thought I was seriously advocating unqualified pilots though.
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No I didn't think that. I didn't get it at all.
I didn't get it at all.
Plus ça change..
[emoji12] [emoji12]
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I work for a global company and they would have a pretty tough time doing business here without employing anyone.
As a global company I'm sure they can find employees anywhere they care to settle - ever heard of 'relocation'?
It is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of - well we've lost track haven't we? - but let's say 70 million. You really think they need much encouragement to have a slice of that market?
And they would be quite happy to lose easy access to the other 440 million in the EU?
If they are, I would seriously think about looking for a more sane company to work for - one with an ounce of business nous.
As a global company I'm sure they can find employees anywhere they care to settle - ever heard of 'relocation'?
And they would be quite happy to lose easy access to the other 440 million in the EU?
If they are, I would seriously think about looking for a more sane company to work for - one with an ounce of business nous.
No, I should imagine they would be happier for UK to remain in the EU, like most - or is it all? - global corps.
Global corps don't tend to re-locate since they are global - they have offices and staff everywhere in the world.
In the business I work in they would have a tough time delivering to, say, Canary Wharf, if they had relocated the driver to Jakarta.
...they would be happier for UK to remain in the EU, like most - or is it all? - global corps.
I would imagine that companies that make police riot gear, and arms manufacturers, are probably hoping for Brexit.
WINK FACE ;)
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Arms manufacturers are like bookmakers. They never have a bad year whatever happens.
This is a good video and a strong argument from the LEAVE camp.
Thanks to meddling EU regulations regarding flammable materials, it takes him a very very very long time to burn the flag.
https://youtu.be/px_M6weS8gY
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Yes that is amusing. On a more serious note, why is there an EU flag, and an anthem, if they are not planning on eventually abandoning the nation state model altogether for a federalist set-up? It's clear indication of this plan is it not?
It's clear indication of this plan is it not?
No.
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Arms manufacturers are like bookmakers. They never have a bad year whatever happens.
Indeed, and it's no accident either.
Arms sales are the primary reason why wars are deliberately started (yes, you read that right) by 'the elite', quite simply because the subsequent sales of arms to warring factions, makes them BILLIONS of Dollars, which in turn gives them even more wealth and power.
Therefore, they go out of their way to provoke them, hence 9/11, which was all very carefully planned and executed for the desired effect... Consequently, the 'money men' of this world, including arms manufacturers, are never happier than when there are wars on!
Marco.
Just wondering how many of the economists saying we should stay in also advocated for the Exchange Rate Mechanism ??
That may be true but it doesn't explain why there were countless wars before there was ever such thing as an international arms dealer, Back when you made your own weapons - or the local blacksmiths and armourers did. People are very good at starting wars on their own, always have been. There's no need for the dealers to manufacture them. They are just facilitators.
And if you look at countries that have had, or have, arms embargos on them, they build their own - South Africa and Israel for example.
No.
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Could you provide a less concise answer? What is the point of the flag and anthem then?
More importantly, is it possible to disable that 'Sent from Tapatalk' shite from appearing under each post, as it's a useless waste of bandwidth (much like this thread, lol). That includes the 'Sent from My Fanny Pad' nonsense with those using other, similar devices ;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
12-06-2016, 12:20
More importantly, is it possible to disable that 'Sent from Tapatalk' shite from appearing under each post, as it's a useless waste of bandwidth. That includes the 'Sent from My Fanny Pad' nonsense with those using other, similar devices ;)
Marco.
It is possible to disable it, but it's dependent on the device owners ability to find the text and modify/remove it.
More importantly, is it possible to disable that 'Sent from Tapatalk' shite from appearing under each post, as it's a useless waste of bandwidth. That includes the 'Sent from My Fanny Pad' nonsense with those using other, similar devices ;)
Marco.
Yup. Go to me at bottom and setting os sigature then switch it off... It has a habit of coming back on with an update though on occasion.
That may be true...
It indisputably is, as of course is the fact that people have always been good at starting wars on their own, but that doesn't negate those in positions of power, with a suitable agenda, 'nudging things along a bit', whenever the need arises! ;)
Marco.
It is possible to disable it, but it's dependent on the device owners ability to find the text and modify/remove it.
Cheers, Chris.
There you are, Robert, some homework for you tonight! ;)
Marco.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160612/853ef7b938243be5437c8fc9ad95fbf6.jpg
walpurgis
12-06-2016, 13:42
Thanks to meddling EU regulations regarding flammable materials, it takes him a very very very long time to burn the flag.
I suspect there are many things that will soon become classified as 'too hazardous' or 'too environmentally unfriendly' for ordinary people to be allowed to use.
You can't buy decent weed kiler, creosote or turps any more, vacuum cleaners have been restricted in power and so on. I'd say if you need them, it may be an idea to stock up on things like cellulose thinners, caustic soda, two pack paints, epoxy and acrylic adhesives and I'm sure many other items. No doubt it will become illegal to service one's own vehicles soon.
Could you provide a less concise answer? What is the point of the flag and anthem then?
http://youtu.be/CY7QG_8dgzs
Sent from my sofa using fart gas
Stratmangler
12-06-2016, 13:56
http://youtu.be/CY7QG_8dgzs
Sent from my sofa using magic
I don't think Martin wanted to hear that awful dirge.
A couple of erudite words in reply would suffice.
Arkless Electronics
12-06-2016, 14:04
Remain! Federal Europe, European army etc BRING IT ON. Great!
As far as immigration goes well we should deport all the kippers and Tories to make some more room... a win, win result :D
As far as immigration goes well we should deport all the kippers and Tories to make some more room...
They could go here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_Island
[emoji13]
I don't think Martin wanted to hear that awful dirge.
Oh. I'm sorry. How about this one? It has clues.
http://asean.org/asean/about-asean/asean-anthem/
I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice...
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Because he won't pay them enough bribes, presumably.
walpurgis
12-06-2016, 14:53
They could go here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_Island
[emoji13]
Dropping them in here would appeal to me more.
http://i65.tinypic.com/jt3xhv.jpg
Arkless Electronics
12-06-2016, 14:56
Dropping them in here would appeal to me more.
http://i65.tinypic.com/jt3xhv.jpg
That should do the trick! It would make more room and free up services for decent people.
Dropping them in here would appeal to me more.
http://i65.tinypic.com/jt3xhv.jpg
Only once they've been tortured first! ;)
Marco.
twickers
12-06-2016, 15:12
Dropping them in here would appeal to me more.
http://i65.tinypic.com/jt3xhv.jpg
No clear up of any bodies. Enviromentally friendly too.
You'd need a chopper to drop them in from though. Or a set up like they have in 'She' where you have a pit leading down to the volcano in your throne room.
That's the trouble once you start on a plan, the costs spiral.
twickers
12-06-2016, 15:22
You'd need a chopper to drop them in from though. Or a set up like they have in 'She' where you have a pit leading down to the volcano in your throne room.
That's the trouble once you start on a plan, the costs spiral.
Ahh.. the details..
You're in charge of mass murder then. ;)
Pop a few sausages in their pockets too, before dropping them in, as it'll save time later with the barbecue.
Marco.
Almost a Viz Top Tip there, Marco
At the risk of ending the thread crapping, I must share this short video on the glories of the EU.
It explains why we should be welcoming the Turks to our glorious project with open arms, rather than using the threat of their marauding hordes to canvass for BREXIT as the LEAVE campaign have been doing.
Truly this man, whoever he is, is a great orator for I was near moved to tears by his deeply-held passion for the EU, and his love for our fellow man.
http://youtu.be/SVUemAsXGO8
Seems many companies will have to renegotiate their trade deals. Does this mean that the overpaid CEOs will have to get off their asses and do some work?
They've got some good arguments, these Leavers, eh? And high moral standards, clearly. Make sure you back the right horse...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-leave-poster-orlando-shooting-free-movement-atrocity-a7079511.html
Sent from Milano using free European Wi-Fi
Well regardless from the current polls it looks like we will be taking our ball and going home. They will be bricking it in Brussels. It is going to be so hard explain why we can't leave even though most of us want to.
Virtual-Symmetry
13-06-2016, 17:05
Conservatives will always lead this cuntry into the shit. Looks like the EEC lark was the biggest shite puddle to date.
That was Ted Heath or 'The Traitor Heath' as he is monikered by most contributors to the Telegraph comments section. Most of the Tories and the Country didn't want it so he sold it as a trading bloc only, admitting years later that he lied.
Arkless Electronics
13-06-2016, 17:34
Only once they've been tortured first! ;)
Marco.
They should be at home when they get to the bottom of that fiery inferno as well.... their old boss runs the place these days after she made satan redundant so I hear :D
Conservatives will always lead this cuntry into the shit. Looks like the EEC lark was the biggest shite puddle to date.
:lol::lol:
Sorry VS , I didn't think that was a typo to start with !!!:stalks:
:lol::lol:
Sorry VS , I didn't think that was a typo to start with !!!:stalks:
Suspect it was a 'deliberate' typo. :eyebrows:
BTH K10A
13-06-2016, 20:30
The demographics are quite telling.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/21/eu-referendum-who-in-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/
In what way, Andy? How are you interpreting those stats? :)
Marco.
yYou could say those without want out and those with something to lose want in....or some will say the thicko's want out and the intelligentsia want in ........... Young want in and old want out.
Statistics eh? you will find most havent made up their mind yet and a lot of the answers were not necessarily truthful
Plus all those who have a strong opinion but won't actually vote. In theory those for leaving will be more motivated to make the effort.
Plus all those who have a strong opinion but won't actually vote. In theory those for leaving will be more motivated to make the effort.
Not necessarily. If 'Remain' was comfortably ahead in the polls, I might not have bothered to vote. As it is, I'll be down at the polling station as soon as it opens. Vote early, vote often!
I will probably vote to what my daughter wants. She and family have a future and wouldn't want to put that in jeopardy . My life is at the back end but she and her kids are my future so what she is doing I will likely do too. My sound like a cop out but thats what we fight for when all said and done. Family
walpurgis
13-06-2016, 22:25
I shall be at the gates of the polling station with my MAC 10 vetting everybody who approaches. Wo betide any with the wrong ideas! :eek: (;))
Tut. Uses lugar style parabellums those do.
walpurgis
13-06-2016, 22:41
Tut. Uses lugar style parabellums those do.
Not the .45 matey. :D
Another well informed article for the Leavers to dismiss as being self-interested, or whatever... "we're sick of experts"
I thought the bit about the civil servants was particularly interesting, which is a sentence I never thought I would have occasion to use.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n12/francis-fitzgibbon/if-we-leave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sent thinking about the massacre in Orlando, finding assault rifle jokes not so funny today
:(
walpurgis
13-06-2016, 23:17
Sent thinking about the massacre in Orlando, thinking that assault rifle jokes are not so funny today :(
Good job there weren't any.
"Exit negotiations, the remaking of agreements with the EU and other countries, and re-enacting or scrapping EU regulations will divert our shrunken civil service from its main duties for years."
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n12/francis-fitzgibbon/if-we-leave
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Arkless Electronics
13-06-2016, 23:45
"Better together" was the phrase in the Scotland referendum was it not? I think the same re the EU. The less nationalism and more "we're all in it together" (but not in a Tory way of course!:eek:) the better!
"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You,..
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You,..
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one"
Right, back to the student union bar.... Metaphorically. There's nowt wrong with idealism :)
BTH K10A
14-06-2016, 05:46
In what way, Andy? How are you interpreting those stats? :)
Marco.
It would seem to indicate that the vast majority of the young see their future as being part of the EU and the older generation may well screw that future up for them.
I shall be at the gates of the polling station with my MAC 10 vetting everybody who approaches. Wo betide any with the wrong ideas! :eek: (;))
And their attire too, no doubt... Woe betide any man, during the strip search, found wearing more attractive ladies underwear than you! :nono: :D
[Grant of course wins by default] :eyebrows:
Marco.
Firebottle
14-06-2016, 07:23
Well if you can't decide at least have a laugh. This has had me in fits:
'The Remain campaign is beginning to resemble The Night Of The Living Dead, as the crypt doors creak open and another former Prime Minister is disinterred.
Yesterday, Gordon Brown was given a Frankenstein-style jolt of electricity and let loose on an unsuspecting electorate. Unfortunately, mission control forgot to check the wiring and tighten the bolt in his neck before unlocking his cage.
Gordon lumbered into BBC Radio 4’s Today programme studio like Herman Munster, circuit board set to ‘transmit only’.
Despite the best efforts of John Humphrys, he went straight into Just A Minute mode, determined to speak without hesitation or interruption. Pity he forgot the bit about deviation and repetition.'
:rfl:
"Exit negotiations, the remaking of agreements with the EU and other countries, and re-enacting or scrapping EU regulations will divert our shrunken civil service from its main duties for years."
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n12/francis-fitzgibbon/if-we-leave
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Ho Ho - so 'shrunken' there is only 450,000 of them left. Most of whom do nothing. We ran the whole Empire with just 40,000 and that was without the benefit of technology. As for taking them years, no doubt it will. In the private sector we'd have that all sorted in a day or two.
That was Ted Heath or 'The Traitor Heath' as he is monikered by most contributors to the Telegraph comments section. Most of the Tories and the Country didn't want it so he sold it as a trading bloc only, admitting years later that he lied.
He did that and was never brought to account. What he did was both unconstitutional and illegal since he fraudulently procured the public vote to be part of something that they never voted for. Oh, that and he gave our territorial fishing waters away resulting in environmental vandalism and the loss of our fishing industry :doh: Still, at least he earned enough in office to go sailing into the sunset on his private yacht, "Morning Cloud", so we'll all forgive him eh? (Actually, he owned no less than 5 yachts, all with that name).
We're screwed either way the vote goes tbh. The EU bureaucrats, and Germany, are waiting in the wings to drop onto us some serious manacles that they were two frightened to mention prior to the BREXIT vote, namely loss of a significant part of our veto and a rise in UK net contributions (fact), and EU harmonisation of taxes and interest rates. It seems that they wanted to keep these fundamental issues quiet until after the vote as they knew that the UK public would vote out otherwise. The cat's out of the bag though. These are things that they see essential to fill the gaps in their cash needs and to push all member states towards full political integration.
Cameron agreed to these things, or at least knew about them (not touting it in the press, much like Heath in his day did with his duplicity) and failed to highlight them in his "please stay?" propaganda. The crime here is that we have seemingly agreed to a change (reduction) in our rebate without insisting that the EU accopunts be audited. The EU parliament has steadfastly refused this audit, despite requests, for a decade now. It is corrupt to its very core.
To summarise:
Heath sold us up the swanny, committed electoral fraud and got away with it. We lost out territorial fishing waters and rights, the start of even greater losses. Our businesses have systematically been asset stripped over the past decade as the UK economy has grown and remained strong in spite of the disasters happening within the Euro zone. A good deal of this asset stripping has been done with the full collusion of the UK government(s) and mostly with EU support in the form of EU grants, paid for by you, the tax payer. Meannwhile, our contributions over a similar period have grown from circa 5 Billion annually to over 8 Billion but we know that isn't the true net figure as it doesn't account for administration and legislative costs, nor of the additional costs to the civil service.
Meantime, Cameron has silently agreed in his skillful negotiations to the UK entertaining further loss of its democracy in full knowledge of the tax harmonisation, loss of control of our armed services (in the pipeline), reduction of UK armed services spending (in the pipeline), a reduction in our rebate and an increase in net EU contributions....and all of this without any audit of EU accounts.
And people are still clambering over themselves to vote "remain"????:scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch:: scratch::scratch:
On the flip side, to ensure accountability, we most vote "leave" but short term, whilst we still have full access to the single market, it wont be at favourable rates (the Germans will personally see to that), it will be with conditions attached including full movement of EU citizens, with the tacit agreement of the UK government to accepting (down the line) anything up to 1 million Turks into the UK when (not if) the EU brings them into the fold, and short term, we will struggle financially with interest rates having to rise (a good thing imho to burst this false bubble that we're in), inflation set to rise but which is forecast to stabilise longer term. We do of course have the option to cherry pick what we buy from the EU, including cars, so have more leverage than the EU is willing to admit. They're not going to wipe 10% of their car industry overnight to spite themselves.
Either way...it's not a pretty picture. Both sides have failed to tell us the truth. Many voters in the UK are simply not taking sides (I'm not) but weighing up what might be best for us as a nation and for Europe itself in the long term. We all have to get on and to raise silly barriers because we don't want to be in their club is the real xenophobia here. Italy and Greece, almost certainly are looking to exit the EU and Spain may not be far behind due to massive unemployment and poor (non) growth. No-one in the EU really wants federalism except in areas they benefit individually. Politically, the EU is generating a lot of distrust and bad feeling between nations internally, and this is a cauldron bubbling away ready to explode if the forced pace of integration continues. Greece, in particular, is being treated very shoddily by the Germans, who won't give them breathing space for their repayments for fear of this starting a landslide...full admission in fact that the Eurozone is crumbling. Greece along with the UK and France, helped bail Germany out after the war, paying their debts allowing one of the most remarkable post-war industrial growths of any nation, so Germany owe Greece a massive debt of thanks and at the very least, could suspend the interest payments for a few years to allow Greece to make some headway into debt reduction. Greece may have been corrupt and not paid its taxes etc but boy are they paying for that now with many on the poverty line and no real future for any of them for at least another 40 years. And this is meant to hold up the EU as a shining beacon of federalism? You can stick your federalism where the sun doesn't shine. Greece will be forced to leave the EU, peacefully, or non peacefully.
Had the EU seen that federalism doesn't work between so many nations, and dropped that part of Monet's utopia, reverting to a common market only, then I'd be voting to stay. It would be nuts not to. That's not where we are or are ever likely to be again though and we may have a place at the negotiating table but we have been ridden roughshod over for many years and haven't had any politician up to the job for decades. Leaving gives us the only real chance for our kids, and unless someone can come up with concrete proof to the contrary, a large proportion of the voting public will be voting to leave.
As for taking them years, no doubt it will. In the private sector we'd have that all sorted in a day or two.
Governments aren't in the private sector.
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hifi_dave
14-06-2016, 09:24
Excellent Paul..:thumbsup:
Oldpinkman
14-06-2016, 09:48
There are a lot of authoritative asserstions made. A lot of "betrayals" and sinister conspiracy theories. (This forum seems to thrive on conspiracy theories and denigrating expertise). It is tempting to just let it be. Maybe a few facts will help some people when considering the consequences of leaving the EU
1) Currently, every state in Europe is part of the EU either as a member with a vote and influence like the UK, or a quasi-member without a vote or influence, like Norway or Switzerland. Nobody is out in the way the Leave campaign has said is their intention if there is a leave vote. (I personally think we will end up like Norway - but the core official line of leave is leave the EU and leave the single market)
2) Of the top ten economies in the world today, every single one of them with a population of less than a billion people is a member of a continental trading bloc like the EU.
3) Although Macca could sort the negotiations single handed in his afternoon off, the thousands of civil servants are going to have to start negotiating our trading status with the EU. And with over 50 other major trading partners who we currently have an agreement with as members of the EU, which would automatically cease when we implement Article 50 of the EU Treaty.
4) When Article 50 is implemented we automatically, by EU laws created and enacted by the UK, cease to be members of the trading block and become part of the EU Common External Tariff Regime. That is our automatic default position, until Macca on his afternoon off negotiates something better for us. That is not discretionary. To change that would need an ammendment to the Treaty, and that requires a unanimous vote. At least 4 of the other 27 nations who would need to vote for it have automatic referendum requirements on treaty ammendment votes. Unless Macca can swing those elections as well as negotiate treaties, the reality is we will be in the EU Common External Tarriff Regime, or maybe negotiate to join the EEA like Norway, and pay the same contributions, enact the same rules, including free movement of people, AND join Shengen. Only difference from today would be we are in Shengen and have to allow all EU citizens entry without a passport, never mind a visa, and we would have lost our vote, which among other things would have allowed us to block Turkeys membership if we had wanted to.
These realities are not down to petty spite at being pissed off with the UK leaving - although I think we can reckon on the EU having had enough of giving special treatment to its sulky child, once the sulky child no longer wants to be in the team. These realities are automatic defaults of treaties, triggered by the Leave campaigns insistence on requesting implementation of article 50 of the EU treaty.
:(
There are a lot of authoritative asserstions made. A lot of "betrayals" and sinister conspiracy theories. (This forum seems to thrive on conspiracy theories and denigrating expertise).
No it doesn't. That is simply your erroneous perception. There's a marked difference between 'denigrating' and challenging. Just because someone doesn't agree with your views, or those of an 'expert', and counters them with valid arguments, which succeed in contradicting those views, doesn't mean that they're being 'denigrated'.
This forum "specialises", if you want to put it that way, in challenging [there's that word] the accepted norm and the views of those who appear to glibly swallow that as indisputable truth, simply because an 'expert' or 'established authority' has deemed it as such.
Or perhaps that the real truth (such as what might be discovered by challenging and questioning the accepted norm) is too unpalatable to contemplate, and perhaps goes against the entrenched belief system of those with a rather rigid and narrow view of the world, who don't enjoy leaving their cosy little comfort zones...
Long live the free-thinkers and heretics of this world! :yesbruv: :hifive:
Marco.
I'd say it's more a case of 'I believe X, therefore I'll find someone who supports X. If all the experts in the area in which X occurs take the opposite view, that is not because my view of X is wrong, it's because all the experts are corrupt/misguided/part of the Matrix'.
The trouble with believing 'free-thinkers and heretics' is that it's impossible to sort the wheat from the chaff. As someone once said 'You don't want to have a mind so open that your brains fall out.'
I'd say it's more a case of 'I believe X, therefore I'll find someone who supports X. If all the experts in the area in which X occurs take the opposite view, that is not because my view of X is wrong, it's because all the experts are corrupt/misguided/part of the Matrix'.
The trouble with believing 'free-thinkers and heretics' is that it's impossible to sort the wheat from the chaff. As someone once said 'You don't want to have a mind so open that your brains fall out.'
Or a shirt or your boobs pop out which would be terrible
That's fine, Joe, but on the other hand too many people are brainwashed into believing that simply because an 'expert' or an 'established authority' (frequently a pawn working for the government/establishment, or someone else with a biased agenda), says something is 'so', then it automatically is.
On AoS, we like to promote free-thinking, which is devoid of that brainwash, and look beyond the immediately obvious. In that respect, and in keeping with the thread topic, the free-thinkers amongst us might like to read this and sign up to the various petitions: https://home.38degrees.org.uk/2016/04/18/the-governments-eu-leaflet-fact-checked/
Others, of course, deeply entrenched in the brainwash, will simply dismiss it all as 'ridiculous conspiracy theories by fantasists', but I know which side of the divide I'd rather be on! ;)
Marco.
That's fine, Joe, but on the other hand too many people are brainwashed into thinking that simply because an 'expert' or an 'established authority' (frequently a pawn working for the government/establishment, with a biased agenda), says something is 'so', then it automatically is.
On AoS, we like to promote free-thinking, which is devoid of that brainwash. In that respect, and in keeping with the thread topic, the free-thinkers amongst us might like to read this and sign up to the various petitions: https://home.38degrees.org.uk/2016/04/18/the-governments-eu-leaflet-fact-checked/.
Not so much of the 'we', pale-face!
Amusingly, the 38 degrees lot state that:
'They use experts, research and investigations to check claims made by politicians and the media, so they’re in a good position to sort the facts from the half-truths'
So, presumably, some 'experts' are better than others!
Nope, not at all.
You digest the information put forward by the experts (any experts) and, in the final analysis, consider whether YOU believe it to be true. The important thing, therefore, is that it's ultimately YOUR MIND making that final decision, not that of some 'expert' on your behalf!
That's when you know you're a free-thinker, doing your best to be in control of your own destiny, and not anyone else's brainwashed puppet ;)
Governments thrive on people being gullible enough to be controlled, via propaganda fed to them, disguised as 'facts' (often which are deliberately designed to appeal to the mindset of those that they seek to control), so don't let yourself be one of them!
"We" refers to the AoS ethos.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
14-06-2016, 11:00
No it doesn't. That is simply your erroneous perception. There's a marked difference between 'denigrating' and challenging. Just because someone doesn't agree with your views, or those of an 'expert', and counters them with valid arguments, which dismantle and contradict those views, doesn't mean that they're being 'denigrated'.
This forum "specialises", if you want to put it that way, in challenging [there's that word] the accepted norm/popular beliefs, and the views of those who appear to glibly swallow that as unquestionably the truth, simply because an 'expert' or 'established authority' has deemed it as such - or that the real truth (such as what might be discovered by challenging and questioning the accepted norm) is too unpalatable to contemplate, and perhaps goes against the entrenched belief system of those with a rather rigid and narrow view of the world, and who don't enjoy leaving their comfort zone, for fear of discovering the REAL truth...
Long live the free-thinkers and heretics of this world! :yesbruv: :hifive:
Marco.
Were you looking to challenge any of the statements I made?
Yes, but only this:
(This forum seems to thrive on conspiracy theories and denigrating expertise).
...which I've done. The rest of what you wrote is of little interest to me :)
Marco.
There are areas in which I feel competent to weigh up conflicting arguments and work out where the 'truth' lies (see what I did there?) which is usually mid-way between two extremes. For example, I watched a DVD called 'Force of Evil' the other day. Unsurprisingly, the DVD sleeve raved about how good it was, quoting Martin Scorsese as saying it was a huge influence, etc etc. Reading a review of the film on IMDB the next day, opinion was clearly divided, some saying it was a masterpiece, others that it was rubbish. In my opinion, it was a bit 'meh', neither very good nor awful.
In other areas, particularly those involving science, I have to trust the experts, because my own scientific knowledge is sketchy at best. Fortunately, the way science develops is by continually updating the knowledge base as new observations or discoveries are made, so the consensus represents the best present understanding, but is always subject to change.
The final category is politics, and that covers the EU debate. Here we have a mixture of expert opinion, political propaganda, prejudice, and guesswork. Both sides are hyping up their case, both sides are playing on people's fears. I can read conflicting opinions till I'm blue (or red) in the face; how will that enable me to decide which side is lying less than the other? In the end I'm voting 'Remain' on the basis that, overwhelmingly, bright, educated young people want us to stay in the EU, and because some of the biggest nut jobs on the planet think we should leave.
spendorman
14-06-2016, 11:12
Close so far.
A friend sent me this:
The EU nicely described in an old poem
Won't you join our Common Market?, said the spider to the fly,
It really is a winner and the cost is not too high.
I know De Gaulle said "Non", but he hadn't got a clue,
We want you in, my friends and I, for we have plans for you.
You'll have to pay a little more than we do, just for now,
As Herr Kohl said, and I agree, we need a new milch cow,
It's just a continental term, believe me, mon ami,
Like "Vive la France" or "Mad Anglais" or even "E.E.C".
As to the rules, don't worry, friend, there are really but a few
You'll find that we ignore them - but they all apply to you.
Give and share between us, that's what it's all about,
You do all the giving, and we all share it out.
It's very British, is it not, to help a friend in need?
You've done it twice in two World Wars, a fact we must concede,
So climb aboard the Market Train, don't sit there on the side,
Your continental cousins want to take you for a ride!
walpurgis
14-06-2016, 11:24
In the end I'm voting 'Remain' on the basis that, overwhelmingly, bright, educated young people want us to stay in the EU, and because some of the biggest nut jobs on the planet think we should leave.
I like that! :) Not that I'm saying I necessarily agree.
In the end I'm voting 'Remain' on the basis that, overwhelmingly, bright, educated young people want us to stay in the EU, and because some of the biggest nut jobs on the planet think we should leave.
What terrible reasons. Young people know the square root of fuck-all no matter how 'bright' they are. And there are plenty of nut-jobs backing remain.
What terrible reasons. Young people know the square root of fuck-all no matter how 'bright' they are. And there are plenty of nut-jobs backing remain.
Brexit has, inter alia: Putin, Trump, George Galloway, David Icke. A stopped clock is right twice a day, but the chances of those particular clocks all being right are slim to none.
Its a pity there was no fixit option too... Maybe there should have been, but the EU think they are above public opinion... Thats when trouble happens i guess.
Oldpinkman
14-06-2016, 11:40
What terrible reasons. Young people know the square root of fuck-all no matter how 'bright' they are. And there are plenty of nut-jobs backing remain.
A classic Macca.
Statement of authority from someone who really knows - and is the sole arbiter of his infallibility
Universal prejudice towards a non-homogenous body of people ("Young people" this time - so no careless use of language is going to call that racist - but it is equally irrational, arrogant, and unlikely).
If we are stereotyping , are there just "young people" and "old people" or are there also "inbetween people"?
At what age do people move from one homogenous group to the next?
Do all young people immediately gain knowledge the moment they attain the age to become old people?
Or is it old people, middle people, and young people who know nothing, and only Macca and anyone who agrees with him who knows what they are talking about.
I am indebted for the sagely advice
No problem :) . It is probably because you are an accountant that you cannot fathom how these issues could be worked out in an afternoon, but of course they could. Far greater matters have been settled in less time.
Re the young people: I know some young people who are possessed of common sense and intelligence. But they lack experience and sometimes this shows. A man's experience will vary depending on how he has lived his life. Easy life = no experience even when old. Hard life = lots of experience even when still quite young.
In other areas, particularly those involving science, I have to trust the experts, because my own scientific knowledge is sketchy at best.
No, you don't "have to trust" the experts; you choose to, which is your prerogative. I would too in areas (such as medicine), which is far too important a one for a layperson to question the opinion of an expert in his or specialist field.
However, in an area such as hi-fi/electronics, for example, I won't necessarily trust the views of an expert (such as those of an audio engineer or scientist), as ultimately their ears may be no better a judge of what sounds good than mine, or acute enough to identify an effect that I can clearly hear.
I may take into consideration their professional opinion, as that's all it would be, but if they were categorically telling me, for example, that it's impossible for 'foo mains leads' to make any difference to the performance of my hi-fi system, yet my ears and years of experience in that area vehemently contradicted that view, then I would trust ME before the 'expert'.
And that also applies in many other areas of my life. I trust experts in circumstances when I *need* to trust them, or it would be stupidly foolish not to, but never just automatically because they're an 'expert'. That's how free-thinkers think!!
Fortunately, the way science develops is by continually updating the knowledge base as new observations or discoveries are made, so the consensus represents the best present understanding, but is always subject to change.
Yes, but it'll only continue developing and genuinely evolving, if open and inquisitive minds continue to question and challenge 'currently accepted wisdom', in order to assess whether existing data needs reviewing and/or updating. Otherwise, no real progress will be made, and the scientific process (and genuine learning resulting from that) will simply be left to stagnate.
In the end I'm voting 'Remain' on the basis that, overwhelmingly, bright, educated young people want us to stay in the EU, and because some of the biggest nut jobs on the planet think we should leave.
You mean like David Icke, or someone else branded as a "nut job" by those afraid of potentially discovering some truth, which they might not like, simply because his views don't conform with the accepted norm? However, I understand that it's human nature to ridicule those who are different, as it acts as a defence barrier, to help shield one from the effects of cognitive dissonance... ;)
Bright, educated young people can still be wrong, and indeed uninitiated, as can anyone, so who's to say that your own thinking on matters political isn't ultimately the most 'expert', for YOU?
Marco.
What terrible reasons. Young people know the square root of fuck-all no matter how 'bright' they are. And there are plenty of nut-jobs backing remain.
Indeed! :thumbsup:
It's lazy-thinking, at best.
Marco.
Indeed! :thumbsup:
It's lazy-thinking, at best.
Marco.
Hey, if I wanted hard work, I'd get a job!
Basically, it's a simple choice. Do I go with what the smart, educated people think, or do I go along with the less well-educated just on the off-chance that they might be right? Smart, well-educated people tend to live longer and earn more, so they seem to be a good demographic to align myself with.
So those of us here arguing to leave are not smart or well-educated?
No, you don't "have to trust" the experts; you choose to, which is your prerogative. I would too in areas (such as medicine), which is far too important a one for a layperson to question the opinion of an expert in his or specialist field.
However, in an area such as hi-fi/electronics, for example, I won't necessarily trust the views of an expert (such as those of an audio engineer or scientist), as ultimately their ears may be no better a judge of what sounds good than mine.
Of course I don't/can't rely on anyone else's ears to tell me what 'sounds good'. That's an entirely subjective opinion. But the idea that there's some arcane, undiscovered 'science' that explains audio effects is simply nonsense. Unfortunately it's nonsense that lines the pockets of many manufacturers of 'foo'. (See also 'complementary' medicine).
In the end, we all make our decisions in life based on a mixture of knowledge, judgement, prejudice and guesswork. The mixture will vary according to our own particular level of expertise; sometimes the guesswork will be more educated, for example. But the idea that there is a Platonic 'truth' out there that can be discovered if we just think hard enough is, I'm afraid, illusory. For example, how do you know that the free thinkers/heretics are not themselves in the pay of the authorities, and are diverting your attention away from the real reality?
So those of us here arguing to leave are not smart or well-educated?
Those favouring 'remain' are, according to research published in the Telegraph, overwhelmingly more likely to have a degree than those favouring Brexit. That doesn't necessarily mean that those arguing for Brexit are not smart, of course.
spendorman
14-06-2016, 12:55
Blimey, the Poll is even now.
So those of us here arguing to leave are not smart or well-educated?
Apparently not. How can we be intelligent and free thinking if we don't have neo-socialist ideals or if we don't know the cost of everything but the value of nothing? (that was meant to be ironic by the way ;)).People are free to think whatever they want, and thank goodness for freedom of speech. Batting around thinly veiled insults to push the buttons of those that they dislike or disagree with seems to be the last bastion of those who have lost the debate, or at least the ability to debate in a friendly manner. As for what newspaper polls suggest about the demographic of leave V's remain, I wouldn't pay too much store in one small poll which statistically could be pulled to shreds if viewed from slightly different angles.
Whilst I would have phrased things differently to you Martin, I share empathy with some of what you say. Deciding which way to vote based on what the young think doesn't seem to be a very enlightened argument for anything. It ignores historical context and fact, which in the case of EU history, is most definitely needed. The young don't care about what has been, just what is and what is to come. That's all very laudable but without the knowledge and the experience to make informed choices, it's all a Utopian dream and there's no guarantees with what is to come. In the end, one has to vote based on what one believes is right, morally, politically, for security, and the long term economy.
One cannot make an argument for EU membership on the economy alone. That is dangerous ground and you may as well toss a coin longer term between leave or stay based on that alone. On the basis of newspaper reports and polls, I ought to be firmly in the remain camp. I'm not. In fact my preference would be to remain in the free trade area, but with very strong concessions and the vetos firmly in place, not being wittered away by consecutively weaker governments with no clout to make a difference. In fact it's bearing witness to that last fact that shows a portent of what is to come...ie we have no clout in Europe and those yelling that we do can yell until blue in the face. See if that stops our rebate being shrunk and more powers being stripped from us as a nation. Enough is enough, we have no choice but to leave and that is very sad.
An irony in all of this is that I consider myself to be very much a European and I want to see good relations between us and all of our European neighbours. I just don't want to be governed by Germany or Brussels and told where our rebate can be spent or how, or how to live my life, or what to believe or not believe. The whole thing is a massive exercise in social engineering and not in a very positive way. Anyone with eyes can see trouble brewing and a deep distrust or even hate of the prospect of a European superstate.
How can we be intelligent and free thinking if we don't have neo-socialist ideals.
They prefer 'progressive liberal' these days but it amounts to the same thing. Frankly regardless of the consequences I would vote to leave just to piss them off :)
Arkless Electronics
14-06-2016, 13:12
Apparently not. How can we be intelligent and free thinking if we don't have neo-socialist ideals or if we don't know the cost of everything but the value of nothing? (that was meant to be ironic by the way ;)).People are free to think whatever they want, and thank goodness for freedom of speech. Batting around thinly veiled insults to push the buttons of those that they dislike or disagree with seems to be the last bastion of those who have lost the debate, or at least the ability to debate in a friendly manner.
Whilst I would have phrased things differently to you Martin, I share empathy with some of what you say. Deciding which way to vote based on what the young think doesn't seem to be a very enlightened argument for anything. It ignores historical context and fact, which in the case of EU history, is most definitely needed. The young don't care about what has been, just what is and what is to come. That's all very laudable but without the knowledge and the experience to make informed choices, it's all a Utopian dream and there's no guarantees with what is to come. In the end, one has to vote based on what one believes is right, morally, politically, for security, and the long term economy. One cannot make an argument for EU membership on the economy alone. That is dangerous ground and you may as well toss a coin longer term between leave or stay based on that alone.
You're being ironic but I agree with that literally! IMO capitalism and right wing views are intrinsically wrong and even evil. Why? They are founded entirely on greed, selfishness and "I'm alright Jack, sod you". Not the most pleasant qualities or ones to be in any way encouraged!
Hear, hear! :clap:
[But I also agree in many ways with Paul].
Joe, I'll get to your last post, directed at me, after lunch.
Marco.
But the idea that there's some arcane, undiscovered 'science' that explains audio effects is simply nonsense.
So you think that the subject of audio is a 'done deal', and that everything there is to know is already known - nothing more to see here, move on?
I'm rather surprised about that, Joe, given that I thought I knew your 'position' on audio well enough, from years of debating with you on forums. So what if someone's subjective experiences leads to revealing an audio effect, which when tested and verified scientifically, becomes a hitherto undiscovered new phenomenon?
Are you saying that would be completely impossible?
In the end, we all make our decisions in life based on a mixture of knowledge, judgement, prejudice and guesswork. The mixture will vary according to our own particular level of expertise; sometimes the guesswork will be more educated, for example. But the idea that there is a Platonic 'truth' out there that can be discovered if we just think hard enough is, I'm afraid, illusory.
Indeed, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I believe that certain truths are hidden from us by those with an agenda and the ability to hide them, namely corrupt governments, themselves controlled by 'the elite'/money men of this world, call it/them what you like.
Is that so impossible to comprehend or be true?
For example, how do you know that the free thinkers/heretics are not themselves in the pay of the authorities, and are diverting your attention away from the real reality?
Simple. You use your gut instincts and/or intelligence to make an educated guess as to what YOU believe is true.
We've been here already, so we're going round in circles... The difference between a lot of people and me is that, if I consider it the right thing to do, I'm not afraid to listen to what my gut instincts are telling me about something, and prioritise that over the supposed 'learned views' of some expert.
Aren't free-thinkers really annoying? :D ;)
Marco.
So you think that the subject of audio is a 'done deal', and that everything there is to know is already known - nothing more to see here, move on?
I'm rather surprised about that, given that I thought I knew your 'position' on audio well enough, from years of debating with you on forums. So what if someone's subjective experiences in audio leads to revealing an effect, which when tested and verified scientifically, becomes a hitherto undiscovered new phenomenon?
Are you saying that would be completely impossible?
As a consumer of audio products, I couldn't give a toss about the 'scientific' reasons for an effect; if I like it, I like it. I could be wrong, but AFAIK, no new scientific discoveries have been made in audio just by people listening to things and hearing 'effects'; such effects can be easily explained using known science.
Indeed, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I believe certain truths are hidden from us by those with an agenda and the ability to hide them, namely corrupt governments, themselves controlled by 'the elite'/money men of this world, call it/them what you like.
Is that so impossible to comprehend or be true?
Far from it; indeed I'm absolutely sure it is true. I just don't happen to think that the likes of Icke are going to have any access to the 'truth', as opposed to some fragmented and possibly distorted version of it. Why would they? The very fact that they claim to have some unique or privileged access to facts that are unknown to the rest of us makes me suspicious. Surely if these truths are so 'dangerous' Icke would have bumped off by now?
In any case, what actual difference does it make to my life? You are always claiming to live in a 'bubble', isolated from various aspects of the modern world that you find distasteful. For my part, I'm content to bumble along in my own bubble, oblivious to whatever dastardly plots the powerful are hatching. It's worked fine for me so far. Anyway, even if I knew about them, what could I do?
Oldpinkman
14-06-2016, 14:36
No problem :) . It is probably because you are an accountant that you cannot fathom how these issues could be worked out in an afternoon, but of course they could. Far greater matters have been settled in less time.
Re the young people: I know some young people who are possessed of common sense and intelligence. But they lack experience and sometimes this shows. A man's experience will vary depending on how he has lived his life. Easy life = no experience even when old. Hard life = lots of experience even when still quite young.
The process would involve negotiation. With 27 other states. Apart from the fact that you couldn't copy out the highway code in an afternoon, never mind devise its rules from scratch, even if you could autonomously autocratically create it, that is not the process required. The job is not to think up and write in an afternoon, all the rules needed for trade, taxation, product standards etc. It is to obtain the agreement of the other parties - 27 of them in the case of the EU.
Re young people. You miss the point. I realise they are all diverse individuals. You are the one trying to view them as a homogenous group. All young people are as identical as all black people, all turks, all muslims or all west ham supporters. The reality is that they are all very different and can't be type cast. That won't stop you casually doing it.
Pieoftheday
14-06-2016, 14:51
OUT:)
The process would involve negotiation. With 27 other states. Apart from the fact that you couldn't copy out the highway code in an afternoon, never mind devise its rules from scratch, even if you could autonomously autocratically create it, that is not the process required. The job is not to think up and write in an afternoon, all the rules needed for trade, taxation, product standards etc. It is to obtain the agreement of the other parties - 27 of them in the case of the EU.
.
You keep the rules as they are for now. You put up a sign (metaphorically) saying all those countries who want continued access to the UK market (worth £300 billion in exports to the other EU states alone) to come in and sign up. It's money and business and no-one mucks around when money is at stake. Anything we want to re-negotiate can then be done at leisure but otherwise it is business as usual. Not so difficult, is it?
OUT:)
In, out or shake it all about :lol:
I could be wrong, but AFAIK, no new scientific discoveries have been made in audio just by people listening to things and hearing 'effects'; such effects can be easily explained using known science.
You think?
So is that why there must be tens of thousands of audiophiles (perhaps more), all over the world, who are convinced beyond question, and have reported such, that different cables can significantly alter the sound of hi-fi equipment, and in ways which known science can't yet fully explain - and no I don't buy the notion that all of them are 'imagining' it! ;)
For me, the sheer weight of numbers involved, claiming hearing those differences warrants further investigation, and if proven that those claiming such are able to successfully identify them under controlled conditions, then there should be an appropriate scientific investigation launched, in order to ascertain whether a new phenomenon exists that may be responsible for creating those differences.
That is true science at work, rather than just automatically dismissing the existence of something, simply because it appears to contradict known science/currently accepted wisdom.
I just don't happen to think that the likes of Icke are going to have any access to the 'truth', as opposed to some fragmented and possibly distorted version of it. Why would they? The very fact that they claim to have some unique or privileged access to facts that are unknown to the rest of us makes me suspicious.
Icke, or anyone else, doesn't need "privileged access to any facts", he or they simply need use of a computer and access to the Internet, together with the patience and desire to do enough digging in the right places, in order to uncover plenty of 'hidden truths', covered up by previous and current corrupt governments.
The advantage Icke has is that he's got more time, money and motivation to actively pursue the information he needs for that, than the average guy on the street, and also, as a free thinker, the ability not to allow himself to be brainwashed or controlled by government propaganda.
Therefore, he's simply a facilitator of information, which you can then check out for yourself and verify, not someone to be automatically believed, word for word, any more than a politician with a biased agenda. Ultimately, you have to do your own research and decide for yourself whether Icke, or others like him, make some valid claims.
Surely if these truths are so 'dangerous' Icke would have been bumped off by now?
Don't rule it out at some point, if he gets too 'mouthy', as they did that to Jill Dando (via MI5), to shut her up, when she was threatening to expose Jimmy Saville and a whole paedophile ring (who had major connections with 'the elite' and royal family), blaming her killing on some poor 'nobody' who was supposedly stalking her...
Honestly, if you dig deep enough, you'll find truly shocking evidence tying the royal family and previous prime ministers in with all sorts of horrific crimes (Ted Heath in particular and his penchant for buggering young boys, and then having them killed, to hide the evidence) - all carefully covered up of course.... I kid you not!
Look at our current 'coke-snorting' chancellor, and how he's partial to being spanked by whores in brothels - all verifiable if you know where to look - and yet how much of that do you hear about in the news?
I have a friend who used to be a reporter for the News of the World, and he could tell you some stuff about all of the above [things that they were TOLD NOT to print], with REAL evidence to back it up, which would make your toes curl......
In any case, what actual difference does it make to my life? You are always claiming to live in a 'bubble', isolated from various aspects of the modern world that you find distasteful. For my part, I'm content to bumble along in my own bubble, oblivious to whatever dastardly plots the powerful are hatching.
Same here, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy practicing free-thinking and doing my little bit to poke 'one in the eye' of the establishment, and help make others aware of the widespread corruption/cover ups that exist, if it should be enough to pique their interest and investigate it further....
Marco.
walpurgis
14-06-2016, 23:10
All young people are as identical as all black people, all turks, all muslims or all west ham supporters. The reality is that they are all very different and can't be type cast. That won't stop you casually doing it.
Judgemental?
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 06:09
You keep the rules as they are for now. You put up a sign (metaphorically) saying all those countries who want continued access to the UK market (worth £300 billion in exports to the other EU states alone) to come in and sign up. It's money and business and no-one mucks around when money is at stake. Anything we want to re-negotiate can then be done at leisure but otherwise it is business as usual. Not so difficult, is it?
Martin. That post summarises perfectly what is so dangerous about "Leave" and its supporters such as yourself. You have the assertive confidence to know how to sort it if only the silly sods would let you.
Even you know the silly sods won't let you
And whilst in part that's because the silly sods don't work in that simple way, mostly its because they know you don't know what you are talking about.
The "rules as they are now" are the European Union Treaty. As I pointed out before - changing that Treaty needs unanimous 27 member consent. At least 4 of those 27 automatically need a referendum for that.
Leave is going to ask to implement Article 50 of the Treaty. One of the consequences of Article 50 is that the leaving member no longer gets a vote. Pretty obviously the UK can't leave the block and continue to have a vote on how the block deals with it
Another consequence of Article 50 is that, according to "the rules as they are for now" - the UK moves to the EU Common External Tarrif regime after no more than 2 years. That is the status quo. By default, according to the "rules as they are for now" we become just another non-EU trading partner, trading with a well defined set of rules under the EU Common External Tarrif regime. We are automatically not part of the current deal - because that is member only insider deal, and we are not members.
Note - for all practical purposes , changing that rule is impossible- because it is made by a treaty, and treaty changes need unanimous 27 member consent . So - the sign on the door says "EU Common External Tarrif regime" and we need to negotiate something different.
Even if VW, Mercedes and BMW were in a complete lather about the UK market, there is sod-all they can do about it. So "It's money and business and no-one mucks around when money is at stake" is just another touchingly naieve false statement. But of course, VW, Mercedes and BMW will not stop selling to the UK, and their UK customers, mostly, won't stop buying. Their products will simply be more expensive, and their UK buyers will either be so rich they don't care (Johnson, Farage and Co) or will spend less money on HiFi and records to have enough to pay the higher prices for German cars. They are not suddenly going to start buying Hyundai and Kia instead.
Remind me what it is the Germans are desperate to buy from us and can't get from elsewhere?
BMW sell more to China than the UK - and China is a market the EU is serious about having trade deals with, as it currently dwarfs the UK, and in 10 years will make the UK market look a total irrelevance.
As for young people, I'll leave someone far prettier than either of us to motivate them to look after their futures,
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jun/14/keira-knightley-eu-referendum-voter-participation-video-we-are-europe
On AoS, we like to promote free-thinking, which is devoid of that brainwash, and look beyond the immediately obvious.
I must have missed this "Mission statement" when I registered. I thought it was a hifi forum, hadn't realised it was a haven for conspiracy theorists, ahem, sorry I mean "free-thinkers". [emoji13]
Where is the thread that explains this, Marco, and does this mean that those of us who choose to believe the "brain washed consensus" that everything is not a conspiracy are not really welcome on your site???
Pretty obviously the UK can't leave the block and continue to have a vote
This is why we must leave, these assholes won't allow us to have sovereignty even over how our own decision to leave might be implemented to our advantage! BREXIT.
Batting around thinly veiled insults to push the buttons of those that they dislike or disagree with seems to be the last bastion of those who have lost the debate, or at least the ability to debate in a friendly manner.
Well this is most odd, Paul. Your very long posts are full of assertions about things (mostly very bad behaviour by Germany) that you offer no evidence for, yet you seem to ignore all the evidence based posts of anyone who disagrees, and now are dismissing us all as only having insults on our side as we have lost the argument, even as you ignore or arguments. Yet it was you who, with no basis at all, accused me of calling you racist and said I was disgraceful. You still have not apologised for that, but I would be very happy to hear you do so.
I also seem to remember how you said you were going to bow out as you had said your piece and wanted no further part, so we would clearly have been wrong to believe you when you said that, do you not agree?
So those of us here arguing to leave are not smart or well-educated
Ah, it seems we have found something else we can agree on, Martin! LOL ;)
Careful Richard...you're entering into denigrating language there again ;) Equally, one could say "that is what's so dangerous about "stay" campaigners such as you...the arrogance that you have all the answers and no-one else has a right to a voice". Well guess what, current polls suggest that over half the voting population of the UK do have a voice and that voice is collectively saying that we are sick and tired of EU corruption, red tape, shackles and barriers to trade against the UK through preferential treatment and self protectionism for other EU companies, uncontrolled borders, and the frightening prospects of federal government from Brussels or Germany, with even the armed forces told what to do. No thanks, we want out.
I must have missed this "Mission statement" when I registered. I thought it was a hifi forum, hadn't realised it was a haven for conspiracy theorists, ahem, sorry I mean "free-thinkers". [emoji13]
Where is the thread that explains this, Marco, and does this mean that those of us who choose to believe the "brain washed consensus" that everything is not a conspiracy are not really welcome on your site???
This is why we must leave, these assholes won't allow us to have sovereignty even over how our own decision to leave might be implemented to our advantage! BREXIT.
Well this is most odd, Paul. Your very long posts are full of assertions about things (mostly very bad behaviour by Germany) that you offer no evidence for, yet you seem to ignore all the evidence based posts of anyone who disagrees, and dismissing us all as only having insults on our side as we have lost the argument. Yet it was you who, with no basis at all, accused me of calling you racist and said I was disgraceful. You still have not apologised for that, but I would be very happy to hear you do so.
I also seem to remember you said you were going to bow out as you had said your piece and wanted no further part, so we would clearly have been wrong to believe you when you said that, do you not agree?
Ah, it seems we have found something else we can agree on, Martin! LOL ;)
I have nothing whatsoever to apologise for. You seem to have the unfortunate habit Robert of putting words into other people's mouths and jumping to erroneous conclusions all by yourself with no help from anyone else ;) I do not have to justify my views to you or anyone else. I have done my research and know which way I'm voting and why. If you want evidence, you provide the evidence against what has been written. You've come up pretty short on that to date with your equally laborious lengthy posts. It's getting rather boring now so I'll leave you to it.
Really Richard's post, if what he says is entirely accurate (which it isn't), entirely, demonstrates exactly how much the EU has us over a barrel and exactly why we should redress that by voting out in what is bound to be our last chance ever to extricate ourselves from this nightmare.
Desease and pestilence upon all who defy the EU according to His Chancellorship. Listening to Darling this morning crying 'why take the risk'?
Doesn't realise that some would sacrifice short term pain for long term gain - away from the growing hydra that will eventually consume all in it's bureaucratic tentacles.
Admittedly I may have less to lose than others but the Great Unwashed may have little to loose too!
Really Richard's post, if what he says is entirely accurate (which it isn't), entirely, demonstrates exactly how much the EU has us over a barrel and exactly why we should redress that by voting out in what is bound to be our last chance ever to extricate ourselves from this nightmare.
Which seems quite likely to happen based on current polls Martin. Thankfully.
I must have missed this "Mission statement" when I registered. I thought it was a hifi forum, hadn't realised it was a haven for conspiracy theorists, ahem, sorry I mean "free-thinkers". [emoji13]
Where is the thread that explains this, Marco, and does this mean that those of us who choose to believe the "brain washed consensus" that everything is not a conspiracy are not really welcome on your site???
Don't be daft! All are welcome, as long as they comply with the sentiments expressed in the 'Our Ethos' section of the forum. Have you not read that part of the site?
There's nothing there referring to any of the above, of course. It wouldn't be prudent to do so, as those are simply MY views, and the basic mindset we encourage (such as I outlined earlier to Pinky), but there's no obligation for anyone to have specific views on anything, least of all politics.
Yes, this is a hi-fi forum, but as you should also be aware, this section of the forum isn't about hi-fi. Remember, you wanted this thread to remain open, as you claimed it contained vibrant and interesting discussion, so don't get agitated when some of that vibrant and interesting discussion doesn't comply with, or seeks to challenge (there's that word again), your political belief system.
Honestly, it's amazing how some folk consider alternative views to theirs as 'denigrating' their delicate sensibilities, or an affront to their very persona, and something to resent or get 'het up' about.... Learn to accept that not everyone in life is going to think or act the same way as you, and dry your eyes and get over it ;)
Marco.
I am no racist so please do not accuse me nor anyone else wish to leave the EU as such. That is a disgraceful thing to say.
It's a matter of record Paul.
..that voice is collectively saying that we are sick and tired of EU corruption, red tape, shackles and barriers to tra........No thanks, we want out.
In case you hadn't noticed, Paul, the referendum is next week and so it's maybe a little bit early to call the result just yet?
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
Oh, and in terms of the 'racist' accusations being bandied about, I haven't read many of the longer posts here, containing detailed insight into the EU stuff, as it doesn't really interest me, so I may have missed it, but if there is any genuine evidence, and I would require direct quotes from those guilty, which support such, to act as said evidence, then I'd like to see it, and if I consider that anyone here has behaved in a racist manner, or unjustifiably called anyone else a racist, then the matter will be dealt with accordingly - and severely.
Marco.
It's a matter of record Paul.
Is it, now? So show me it.
Paul is no racist, so I severely doubt you have any REAL evidence which supports that accusation. Bear in mind that what I need to see is conclusive proof, in the form of quotes from Paul, proving beyond question the racism that you believe him to be guilty of, NOT merely a collection of words you've *interpreted* as such.
Go on, I'm waiting...........
Marco.
Is it, now? So show me it.
Paul is no racist, so I severely doubt you have any REAL evidence which supports that accusation. Bear in mind that what I need to see is conclusive proof, in the form of quotes from Paul, proving beyond question the racism that you believe him to be guilty of, NOT merely a collection of words you've *interpreted* as such.
Go on, I'm waiting...........
Marco.
Marco, the issue here is that I did NOT at any time accuse Paul of racism, yet he said that I did, and that it was disgraceful of me. Now you also seem to be saying that I have accused Paul of racism.
It's just not true.
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you wanted this thread to remain open, as you claimed it contained vibrant and interesting discussion, so don't complain when some of that vibrant and interesting discussion doesn't comply with, or seeks to challenge (there's that word again), your political belief system....
Learn to accept that not everyone in life is going to think or act the same way as you, and dry your eyes and get over it ;)
.
I wasn't complaining, Marco, I was just remarking on your comments about how we are all brainwashed, and about the "ethos" of the forum.
Can you show me (with some conclusive proof) where I have complained about this, or not accepted that people have different views?? Surely my asking for a retraction when I have been wrongly accused of disgracefully calling someone a racist is not so unreasonable, is it?
"Dry your eyes and get over it" indeed!
;)
R
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Well either you go back and quote me the dialogue you're referring to, so I can examine it, or draw a line under the matter and move on, as I don't have time to search for it. It's up to you, but I take accusations of racism from anyone VERY seriously indeed.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 08:46
Careful Richard...you're entering into denigrating language there again ;) Equally, one could say "that is what's so dangerous about "stay" campaigners such as you...the arrogance that you have all the answers and no-one else has a right to a voice". Well guess what, current polls suggest that over half the voting population of the UK do have a voice and that voice is collectively saying that we are sick and tired of EU corruption, red tape, shackles and barriers to trade against the UK through preferential treatment and self protectionism for other EU companies, uncontrolled borders, and the frightening prospects of federal government from Brussels or Germany, with even the armed forces told what to do. No thanks, we want out.
Its not the arrogance of having all the answers. Its lacking the complacency to hope the rules are how they should be, when they are not that way. We have a treaty. If Martins vision of our trade relations with Europe had been feasible within the parameters of the actual laws and treaties we have to deal with then there would be no issue - but it fundamentally cannot happen. So beaming like a Cheshire cat that it will all be alright may give him (and you) a glow inside, but is not dealing with the real world.
Martin is presenting a solution that just won't happen because it can't. My guess is, if we leave, then we will suffer serious financial disruption during the 2 year exit process (we are starting to see fairly serious disruption just for Leave being ahead in the polls - the pound has lost nearly 5%), and be desperate to get a trade deal organised now that we are on the EU Common External Tarrif. Effectively, what I think Martin was saying, will then happen
We will say "look, we have all the rules in place anyway, can't we do a deal?" and the quick deal on offer (quick = maybe as little as 2 years) will be EEA membership or equivalent. So the EU will say - "keep your existing laws, agree to enact any new (relevant) ones we require, keep free movement of people ( a fundamental treaty-bound requirement of the deal) , and join Shengen, and we'll accept you on an EEA status like Norway. Your required financial contribution for this package will be your existing EU payments without Thatchers rebate. That deal, we can rush through".
With minor cosmetic tinkering, I bet that's what we accept. Current rules, current contributions, join Shengen, and lose the vote.
With luck, the lead in the polls will galvanise otherwise complacent "Remain" supporters to get out and vote. Hopefully Keira will get the message across ;)
This from you Robert:
It is precisely because I love my country that I do not wish to see it leave Europe and become a basket case of anti-immigrant ranting
Following a post I'd written, hence the reasonable conclusion that your were insinuating that those holding Brexit tendencies by association somehow also held racist views? You have since said that is not what you meant, so I accept that, but it is nonetheless a matter of record what you wrote. I repeat, I have nothing to apologise for. As Marco suggests, draw a line under it and move on for goodness sakes.
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 08:49
Really Richard's post, if what he says is entirely accurate (which it isn't), entirely, demonstrates exactly how much the EU has us over a barrel and exactly why we should redress that by voting out in what is bound to be our last chance ever to extricate ourselves from this nightmare.
Which bit isn't accurate Martin?
I think you defined "accurate" as "not inconvenient to my own viewpoint", but please correct me with specific verifiable information.
I wasn't complaining, Marco, I was just remarking on your comments about how we are all brainwashed, and about the "ethos" of the forum.
And I've explained that. I never said that you were all brainwashed - who are the "we'? I was making a general comment, aimed at no-one in particular. It's interesting, however. that you've taken my comments about brainwashing to be directed at you.
Surely my asking for an apology when I have been wrongly accused of calling disgracefully someone a racist is not so unreasonable, is it?
Well, show me where that happened and I'll look into it. If you're unwilling to do that, then give it up and move on.
Marco.
Its not the arrogance of having all the answers. Its lacking the complacency to hope the rules are how they should be, when they are not that way. We have a treaty. If Martins vision of our trade relations with Europe had been feasible within the parameters of the actual laws and treaties we have to deal with then there would be no issue - but it fundamentally cannot happen. So beaming like a Cheshire cat that it will all be alright may give him (and you) a glow inside, but is not dealing with the real world.
Martin is presenting a solution that just won't happen because it can't. My guess is, if we leave, then we will suffer serious financial disruption during the 2 year exit process (we are starting to see fairly serious disruption just for Leave being ahead in the polls - the pound has lost nearly 5%), and be desperate to get a trade deal organised now that we are on the EU Common External Tarrif. Effectively, what I think Martin was saying, will then happen
We will say "look, we have all the rules in place anyway, can't we do a deal?" and the quick deal on offer (quick = maybe as little as 2 years) will be EEA membership or equivalent. So the EU will say - "keep your existing laws, agree to enact any new (relevant) ones we require, keep free movement of people ( a fundamental treaty-bound requirement of the deal) , and join Shengen, and we'll accept you on an EEA status like Norway. Your required financial contribution for this package will be your existing EU payments without Thatchers rebate. That deal, we can rush through".
With minor cosmetic tinkering, I bet that's what we accept. Current rules, current contributions, join Shengen, and lose the vote.
With luck, the lead in the polls will galvanise otherwise complacent "Remain" supporters to get out and vote. Hopefully Keira will get the message across ;)
I accept that Richard, and for the most part agree with you. The pound will suffer for a few years but surely the whole point about Brexit is the longer term view? Many think that there is so much else at stake that some devaluation of the pound wont be a bad thing longer term, but in truth, no-one really has a crystal ball and can predict where we'll be in 10 years either way. It's just that many holding Brexit views are more frightened of the prospects of remaining in the EU the way things are currently heading.
As Marco suggests, draw a line under it and move on for goodness sakes.
Indeed, however unfortunately Robert is one of those people who doesn't seem to know when to shush, and quit while he thinks he's still ahead ;)
Marco.
..hence the reasonable conclusion that your were insinuating that those holding Brexit tendencies by association somehow also held racist views? .
I didn't think it was reasonable to extrapolate from what I wrote and say that I was disgracefully calling you a racist when I was simply repeating an earlier point I had made where I said I believe that Brexit would lead to a rise of the right across Europe, and that the focus of discontent would move from Brussels as the cause of all our woes, on to immigrants.
But yes, let's draw a line under it. It didn't upset me, it was just when you accused the remainers of having no arguments beyond calling you a racist that it struck me as pertinent to the current state of the thread...
All happy here, in Italy!
R
This from you Robert:
Following a post I'd written, hence the reasonable conclusion that your were insinuating that those holding Brexit tendencies by association somehow also held racist views? You have since said that is not what you meant, so I accept that, but it is nonetheless a matter of record what you wrote. I repeat, I have nothing to apologise for. As Marco suggests, draw a line under it and move on for goodness sakes.
Thanks, Paul. If that's what all the fuss is about, then it was simply a misunderstanding between you and not worthy of any further investigation.
We move on! :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 09:08
I accept that Richard, and for the most part agree with you. The pound will suffer for a few years but surely the whole point about Brexit is the longer term view? Many think that there is so much else at stake that some devaluation of the pound wont be a bad thing longer term, but in truth, no-one really has a crystal ball and can predict where we'll be in 10 years either way. It's just that many holding Brexit views are more frightened of the prospects of remaining in the EU the way things are currently heading.
I appreciate the post and its tone Paul. It is helpful to have a considered debate rather than acrimony. Where we are at variance, is I don't see how its a good deal. If you accept my conclusion, that when the wheels come off the truck, in practice we will grab at the first deal we can get, and that deal is all the current rules, all the current payments, passportless access for all EU members (which could now include Turkey -and we will have lost our veto on that) but we give up our vote - how is that better than we have now? We just lose our influence.
What influence? A vote, a veto, a seat at the table, and a recognised contribution which gives us some leverage to negotiate special deals (like no Shengen). It may not be the same as total autonomy, but it is real influence, and if we grab an EEA lifeline in desperation we will have completely lost that (although we may save our Financial Services centre from oblivion)
However, Martins response "if that's true, then we definitely want out" seems to imply that the preference is to get RIGHT OUT. No trade deal (or rather, an eventual, trade-only deal, maybe 7 years down the line, on very poor terms compared with our current free market) and no integration.
Unless time is going to start travelling backwards to the Victorian days of Empire (and I believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics), then I repeat
No top ten economy today anywhere in the world with a population of less than a billion is NOT a member of a continental trading block
No other European state is currently "outside" the European Union in that way - they are all members or quasi members.
It could well be chilly in that brave new world.
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 09:09
All happy here, in Italy!
R
Ah - as my friend in Holland posted on Facebook
"At least we will be on the right side of the new Iron Curtain" ;)
Project Fear...
Establishment is shitting itself over Brexit, you need to ask yourself why.
Interesting that Murdoch is in favour of it, he's not known to back the loser.
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 09:32
Project Fear...
Establishment is shitting itself over Brexit, you need to ask yourself why.
Interesting that Murdoch is in favour of it, he's not known to back the loser.
You'll be back in soon Gaz. If the UK Brexits, Scotland will insist on another referendum, and almost certainly vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU. Whilst nothing is ever certain, I would think that Belgium and Spain will not veto that application (as they almost certainly would have done had Scotland gone independant first) and you will be back on our side of the Iron Curtain.
The border controls are going to be fun though, since I would guess Scotland will be in the EU as a Shengen member...;)
Project Fear...
Establishment is shitting itself over Brexit, you need to ask yourself why.
Indeed. I see that they're trotting out Brown, as a pro-EU campaigner to 'help protect the best interests of the people', just like they did during the Scottish referendum, in order to crank up the scaremongering/brainwashing/control campaign, no doubt again with hopefully the same result... ;)
Interesting that Murdoch is in favour of it, he's not known to back the loser.
Is he - got any evidence/links? As a major member of 'the elite', I'm rather surprised at that. Indeed, he's not known to back the losing side, and instead is usually one of those pulling the control strings. Must be some kind of double-bluff.....
Marco.
You'll be back in soon Gaz. If the UK Brexits, Scotland will insist on another referendum, and almost certainly vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU.
If that happens, what the majority of Scots will be most delirious about, will be escaping decades of unfair control and repression from Westmonster - *but* will Westmonster simply be replaced by Brussels, who will simply seek to control Scotland in the same way, and thus the Scots will back to square one, but this time with a devil they don't know.......?
Marco.
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 09:43
Project Fear...
Establishment is shitting itself over Brexit, you need to ask yourself why.
.
It does depend a bit on your conspiracy theorist tendencies. I assume you are implying they are shitting themselves because they have a wicked plan to defraud us and they are not getting away with it.
They could just be shitting themselves because its an economic disaster that is going to hurt like a toe with a sledge hammer dropped on it. All - that is ALL - credible economic forecasts agree that it is going to hit the UK hard. They only disagree about how hard. Because economic models are inherently flawed I think there is a tendency to assume they are worthless, fictional, or conspiratorial. I used to build economic models (a long time ago - using a program called Finesse, which required you to set the parameters and calculations using FORTRAN code). They are basically bloody great multi-dimensional spreadsheets. They can be wrong because the wrong sums were put in a cell (if the exchange rate drops 2%, prices will rise by 3.5% etc) or they can be wrong because they use the wrong data (lets assume the exchange rate drops 2% when actually it drops 7%)
So they are never right. But they are never right in the way the weather forecast is never right. It was 14 degrees and 27km winds today, not 13 degrees and 32km winds as forecast. But they are much closer than random. It is not a safe assumption that they are complete nonsense, or whatever they say the opposite must be true.
The point is, the reason "they" are shitting themselves, is ALL the forecasts offer a range of outcomes which are shit. They only vary as to how shit. Now maybe Macca's Ouija board is more reliable than the models used by the IMF, Treasury, Bank of England and OECD. But just maybe its not.
And once we are out - if, heaven forbid we then think it was the biggest shot in the foot of all time, and we want to get back in - all 27 (28, 29?) members have to approve it. We might end up asking Turkey to let us in :eek:
Oldpinkman
15-06-2016, 09:45
If that happens, what the majority of Scots will be most delirious about, will be escaping decades of unfair control and repression from Westmonster - *but* will Westmonster simply be replaced by Brussels, who will simply seek to control Scotland in the same way, and thus the Scots will back to square one, but this time with a devil they don't know.......?
Marco.
Ask Nicola Sturgeon. Did you watch her very short Facebook video on the subject? It is a particularly articulate and sensible answer to your question
So 'Jimmy Crankie' is capable of being articulate, eh? Hey, who'd have thunk it! :D
Nope, I don't go near Facebook, Twitter or any of that sort of nonsense. If you could supply a link (any link to what you're referring to, YouTube or whatever) I'd be much obliged :)
Marco.
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