View Full Version : Recommend Me A Very High Power Amplifier
Steve brought some tracks around with real bass. Really serious room shaking bass. Twas mad.
jandl100
13-11-2015, 17:51
No I wasn't offended I just know you are wrong as my speakers are +/- 0DB at 21 Hz and yours are not.
Yeah, my room has a bit of a resonant peak 40-50Hz - makes the bass damn impressive on electric/synth-bass! :rock: Just adds a subtle bit of heft on most classical, which I like.
Tis good bass Jerry but you just don't have the radiating area of 3 12 inch woofers. You do have more excursion though.
Anyway, they spelt it wrong, surely it is Accufaze?
Normal Duettas are typically up +10DB at 30 Hz. That's quite low to be 10DB up LOL.
jandl100
13-11-2015, 18:04
Aye, I have to make do with a humble 8 inches. :eyebrows: - although I do have two of them per speaker. About equivalent to one 11 inch.
Nevermind when I upgrade to the new £40K Duetta Advance 7 you can have the Interstella's for the 2nd house.
jandl100
13-11-2015, 18:31
Mmmm - still enjoying the Maggies, actually. Bit bass light, but with +4dB on the bass from a graphic equaliser they are :thumbsup:
walpurgis
13-11-2015, 18:39
Mmmm - still enjoying the Maggies, actually. Bit bass light, but with +4dB on the bass from a graphic equaliser they are :thumbsup:
Heresy!! They are the works of The Devil!! :nono: ;)
jandl100
13-11-2015, 18:40
:ner:
:lol:
Must admit the room the Maggies are in looks good for some really serious speakers Jerry.
Also, will PM you about some good EQ s/w that is program independent I.e. it work with TIDAL, Spotify, JRiver - you name it
jandl100
13-11-2015, 18:49
Yes, it is a nice room - a pair of MBL 116f would work great in there, I suspect. :hmm:
jandl100
13-11-2015, 19:03
Also, will PM you about some good EQ s/w that is program independent I.e. it work with TIDAL, Spotify, JRiver - you name it
Could well be of interest! - although the Maggie system is mainly CDs, vinyl & minidisc, not much streaming via the lappy. I like to keep system usage a bit distinct in my dual abodes.
Might be handy for the MBL system, tame that bass peak a bit when necessary - London Grammar Tr1 gets a bit overblown. That's the only track the peak harms, that I've found.
Be fun to play with, though, and such things are always useful to wind up purist audiophiles. :lol:
It is just a graphic EQ - not room EQ bullshit. You know - just give me what I want to hear now kind of thing - and not pretending that real rooms with real musicians in them don't exist. Yes - real instruments interact with the room. Fancy that!:D
The instruments interact with the room when music is being made - but that isn't the same thing at all as the speakers interacting with the room when music is replayed. The speaker and room combination shouldn't be acting as an instrument in its own right.
There's a thread there YNWaN.
The instruments interact with the room when music is being made - but that isn't the same thing at all as the speakers interacting with the room when music is replayed. The speaker and room combination shouldn't be acting as an instrument in its own right.
I think most domestic stereo systems do act like this. Sometimes it works, often not I fear... I mean, 'we' spend a fortune on mains treatments, bits of wire and so on and yet if the room is compromised, all this counts for nothing ime.
The instruments interact with the room when music is being made - but that isn't the same thing at all as the speakers interacting with the room when music is replayed. The speaker and room combination shouldn't be acting as an instrument in its own right.
It is the same mistake people make when they say "it was just like XXX was in the room with me". Wrong, it should sound as if you are in the same room as them. This is not a matter of semantics; I want to hear the acoustics of the performance venue - that is, the instruments interacting with the room when the music is being made.
As Peter Walker of Quad once said: "(speakers) should sound as if, somewhere near the plane of the speakers, the walls of your listening room disappear and are replaced by those of the performance venue."
It is the same mistake people make when they say "it was just like XXX was in the room with me". Wrong, it should sound as if you are in the same room as them.
They are not in the room with you, nor are you in their room with them. The former is easier to suspend disbelief.
They are not in the room with you, nor are you in their room with them. The former is easier to suspend disbelief.
How so? Can you imagine the Berlin Philharmonic orchestra being in your listening room?
Because you are already in your room.
Because you are already in your room.
It doesn't work like that for me. Perhaps I'm different to other listeners, but it always sounds to me as if I am there. A similar analogy might be watching a DVD or a TV programme; they are never in my TV room, I feel as if I am there with the performers, or if it is a wildlife documentary, there in the desert, savannah, jungle or forest.
or if it is a wildlife documentary, there in the desert, savannah, jungle or forest.
When the lion roars, do you hide behind the couch? :->
I don't think I've had the 'I was there' experience. Maybe one day, when I can afford some Radialstrahlers. :-<
jandl100
15-11-2015, 07:10
As Peter Walker of Quad once said: "(speakers) should sound as if, somewhere near the plane of the speakers, the walls of your listening room disappear and are replaced by those of the performance venue."
:thumbsup:
That has always been my goal.
I don't think I've had the 'I was there' experience. Maybe one day, when I can afford some Radialstrahlers. :-<
Funny you should mention that - that's why I love my MBLs so much. The 'you are there' experience. :)
This thread is now so way off track...
Anyway - room correction.
After messing with DIRAC I decided I really didn't like the results or the philosophy.
Why?
If I play my lead guitar via my guitar amp, don't try and tell me I need room correction. The sound of the instrument is the guitar amp IN THE ROOM.
If I record the guitar amp it sounds bad. Why? Because the mic really pics up on the room. Play it back and you get two sets of room anomalies. Acoustics come out OK but that is another story - far less room interaction at much lower volume.
Most of the stuff you listen to is studio produced. Electric guitars are usually NOT recorded as above. Normal instruments and voices are recorded in room treated rooms (usually) or by pluging straight into the recording gear.
Therefore, since some effort has been expended in the studio to eliminate room effects (thought they can be introduced deliberately), when I play it back, some room effects should be the entirely natural state of affairs.
I agree that technically a flat loudspeaker response is a good idea, but counteracting room effects really sucks the life out of what would otherwise be a natural phenomenon i.e. the instruments interacting with the room.
If your room really is seriously poor you might decide there is some benefit in practice but I did not find that to be the case using DIRAC.
Anyway - room correction.
After messing with DIRAC I decided I really didn't like the results or the philosophy.
Why?
I agree that technically a flat loudspeaker response is a good idea, but counteracting room effects really sucks the life out of what would otherwise be a natural phenomenon i.e. the instruments interacting with the room.
If your room really is seriously poor you might decide there is some benefit in practice but I did not find that to be the case using DIRAC.
I have to agree, having experimented with DSP technology I find that the benefits ( Quite Effective in dealing with sub 300 Hz room nodes ) were for me, Outweighed, in that contrary to expectation and as per Justin's findings, the musicality in the midband seemed to be adversely affected as well, I used the exact same terminology at the time " Sucks the life out of the music"
Most of the stuff you listen to is studio produced. Electric guitars are usually NOT recorded as above. Normal instruments and voices are recorded in room treated rooms (usually) or by pluging straight into the recording gear.
Therefore, since some effort has been expended in the studio to eliminate room effects (thought they can be introduced deliberately), when I play it back, some room effects should be the entirely natural state of affairs.
I agree that technically a flat loudspeaker response is a good idea, but counteracting room effects really sucks the life out of what would otherwise be a natural phenomenon i.e. the instruments interacting with the room.
Sorry, but that makes absolutely no logical sense to me at all.
However, electric guitar is not likely to be the kind of instrument which most suffers from room colouration, it's in the bass registers that a room will be adding the most of its own contribution - typically 50 to 70 Hz in UK rooms. Higher frequencies are of course effected by the room (room flutter and first reflections etc) but they won't boost and cut the bass in the same way that room fundamentals do.
--------
You don't have to use DSP in the mid-band, I don't - you do need a three-way speaker though and the ability to split the crossover, and another amplifier etc.
Practical experience of recording my electric shows room echo picked up by the mic is really pronounced on playback.
Given that, maybe think again.
Actually, Ethan Winer from Real Traps (http://realtraps.com/) is very good on recording instruments. Until you try, you don't know. Seriously - you don't understand how mics practically differ from the human ear, and what the effects of those differences are on playback.
So earlier in this thread some of you may remember that one of the Accuphase M-60 monos got damaged by the shipping company - the box was dropped essentially on one of the handles, which skewed the faceplate.
This is seriously hard to photo but the handle was off by 20 degrees odd, and the face plate looked pretty poor.
Here's a photo which gives an idea, finger marks and all:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Accuphase/DSC02336_zps8dj3wf9a.jpg
Well, as the hi-fi room currently looks like this, I thought it was time to do something about it.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Accuphase/DSC02657_zpsoplbyna9.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Accuphase/DSC02650_zps8wklghil.jpg
Enter the faceless Accuphace:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Accuphase/DSC02661_zpsae3hnw9u.jpg
I basically phoned up the local garage, took the faceplate down to its bodyshop at 5:30 last night, where the Hungarian metal worker was just leaving - I literally just caught him in his car.
I showed it to him and asked if he could do anything about it. A man of few English words, he nodded, took it into the workshop there and then, and gave it some judicious whacks with a dolly.
You can't see it in the pics, but the top right corner was bent too, which he also amazingly corrected.
When showed a £20 note, he refused it. When showed £5, which I insisted on, he took it, saying "for a beer" with a big grin on his face:)
Top chap.
Fixed faceplate below in very unflattering light. Believe me, it is good.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Accuphase/DSC02665_zpsqy9zypwy.jpg
Half tempted to vote remain for that.;)
Firebottle
22-06-2016, 11:05
That's excellent Justin, always a good result when you find someone with the right skills :cool:
Yup especially at that price.
Gotta get on with re-painting the room now new carpet is down - couldn't do it before which is a bit annoying. The plan is to have a far less cluttered room i.e. no guitar/guitar amps, no CD racks, probably no record storage etc.
jandl100
22-06-2016, 11:30
Wow. Amazing.
I admire your faith is the guy's metal bashing skills --- just imagine how it might have turned out!
.... Oops, sorry guvnor, me 'ammer slipped, like. :eek:
Kudos to the amp itself for surviving the drop with only cosmetic damage.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Wow. Amazing.
I admire your faith is the guy's metal bashing skills --- just imagine how it might have turned out!
.... Oops, sorry guvnor, me 'ammer slipped, like. :eek:
Errr... there was more than a bit of that panic feeling, TBH. I started to worry when he was correcting the right hand corner bend by wrapping the corner in an e-cloth, putting it in between two drawers of his stand up tool kit box, and tugging on it!
His dolly hits were masterful, however. Absolutely the right pressure in the right places.
Kudos to the amp itself for surviving the drop with only cosmetic damage.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Yup it is well built no question. The huge reservoir caps stayed put, as did the weighty transformer.
Seriously pleased to having it looking as it should again and doubtless adds way more than a fiver to their worth. Still my fave solid state amps on the Apogees.
Great bit of work. An experienced panel beater is always a joy to watch.
Does make you wonder how many they bolloxed up when practicing to get that good, though.
The answer is: a lot. Usually during the course itself.
I must admit I started to try to do it myself, with a couple of hits from a mallet, when words from a void said to me "don't be a f$%^&£$ idiot!".
Yep, been there a few times, like the moment before I started to drill into a wall that I knew had water pipes and electrics behind it...
I used to hear that little voice until I found that it could be treated with alcohol. Nowdays I'm surprised when I don't do something stupid.
:D in Mid 80's my partner (in our Firm) decided to afix legs to our new Plotter.
Pesky thing cost like a modest Automobile.
Silly bugger drilled holes for the Ikea Legs' screws right through 2 circuit boards.
A long lived lesson on the perils of ineptly rushing forward.
When you go ahead and do something you instinctively know is wrong... well, we've all been there.
Anyway, back to the M-60s. After a good few days with the excellent Apart Champ pro amp, the M-60s had a Friday night session before I pulled the room apart to re-decorate.
That wanky hi-fi phrase "a veil was lifted" springed to mind, because of course the veil, was, indeed, lifted. A real feeling of a far more direct connection to the ribbons occurs with these 40 year old monos in place , rather than the far more veiled, smooth one, as per the Champ.
The Champ is brilliant, though, if you like a smoother, more "gluey/damped" sound.
The Accuphase monos almost beggar belief. You'd think the much more recent tech of the Champ would trash them. But no... it is definitely quite some way behind in terms out and out resolution, clarity and treble purity. The Accuphase monos are simply brilliant at controlling a genuine treble/mid range ribbon a few feet in length. Quite why they are so far ahead I do not know when neither of these amps lack power delivery. I believe I have enough experience to definitely say it isn't solely related to frequency response. I guess it is just down to the mass of technical parameters that vary just enough to make all amps sound different.
The bass quality/believability/"in-roomness"/sheer detail and dare I say "realness" is also quite extraordinary. Like everything has been pushed forward to reveal itself truthfully.
What a fucking ace circuit when built to this spec. What a fucking ace circuit for 1975. Love to hear a different implementation of the same circuit with the best available components of 2016. Whatever they debatably are.
The flip side is familiarity always breeds contempt, no matter how good any amp is. So over-exposure is never a good thing.
Sodding impressive beasts nonetheless.
realysm42
23-06-2016, 23:09
I heard an all accuphase system a couple of months ago, driving some Magico S5s'. The amps were newish 100w monos and they were magnificent. Clean, fast, more current than a bun and never drew attention to themselves. The brand was never on my radar before.
What was interesting was the digital watt counter to show power delivery; they'd go up into the 600's and stay there as long as needed with no complaint. So loud it was scary fun at times :D
It is interesting watching the power meters driving Duettas. After a point, the speaker's max SPL is reached, yet as the volume control is increased, the amp continues to dump extra power into them in a vain attempt to make them go louder. These beefed up Duettas just sit there and drink it, in a cool, calm, composed manner, as if to say "nice try".
Excuse the language above, BTW, but it is probably a lot tamer than the words coming out of David Cameron's mouth in private, I suspect.:D
jandl100
24-06-2016, 07:53
You're maxing out the Aps, Justin? :eek: :mental:
Jeezus - watch out for your hearing.
(I'm sure D. Cameron is looking forward to his retirement.)
You're maxing out the Aps, Justin? :eek: :mental:
Jeezus - watch out for your hearing.
(I'm sure D. Cameron is looking forward to his retirement.)
Haven't been inside the room when doing that experiment, just peering in, and I've never done it for long.
Cameron didn't want another term anyway... but he'll carry on working. Will he get as rich as Blair, though? Hm.
Talking of high power amps, been using some Ayon Orthos II monos for the past three months odd.
400 Watt in pentode mode. Or 250 odd in triode. 20 KT150s in all.
Couple of mobile pics taken by the owner at my place, who has now sold them on.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30417&stc=1&d=1483461369
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30416&stc=1&d=1483461363
Couple of less flattering light pics taken by me.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30994&d=1486597290
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30995&d=1486597529
So, you'd think 20 KT150s would dissipate more heat than 4 211s? You'd be completely wrong. The 4 211s produce way more heat.
I ran them almost exclusively on the 4 Ohm taps in 400 Watt pentode mode. They were just better that way than running in triode for my musical tastes.
For my money, the 211 is the better valve. These KT150 based amps were very even handed, though, right across the frequency range. No particular area drew attention to itself as more outstanding than the rest i.e. bass, mids and treble were all handled with an equal degree of goodness.
Nice amps, and will be available to buy very soon at the Hi-Fi Emporium.
BTW these amps weigh 50KG each. When I lifted them up unaided to take upstairs for shipping and actually managed to land them in the crates, which are built like tanks, I emitted a sigh of relief. Crated 150KG in total. You can barely slide the crates along the driveway.
Utterly crazy and never again, LOL!
Can't see the above pics on my mobile but fine on my PC. Might be because they are hosted on WBF. Can anyone else see them?
Edit: stupid late night question I'll fix them tonight.
Nope, I spy niento here, amigo... Get 'em fixt! ;)
Marco.
Ok Marconian here's the freakin' porn hardcore styleee....;) Others see earlier few posts.
Ex-owner's mobile pics... he only heard them once at my place. Really.
https://jmu47g-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3miM1j2AYv9iTpLqG9E3zWCrCOd9rC6SvmgGJdNRMDet9-kvca_Eevin5ZFNszejbUVIDZU_sJVuVHEwBhtwM7a1KYrAJ1K2 y1CXtsDyj6F4W3uL0GKSlWzkbOKUx_e82L-Q2hLf4JtXWCsOhDNRJbvuBIrdJMSI2FosnaolSaamY?width=6 00&height=337&cropmode=none
https://jmvnka-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3mg4vbZYMfiaB4lwS5GLJZWxUBLpA-h8Deo8PqAyIhNd72UbdJhheD7uf1I1r8dFRLANXo5bGsecdnNK Rp8oh018bQP4s8R8qs_LswYx46sBteLptgMPo0bBsKG35r4zZ-Slwa3E2otQAbtBtyji1TzVZZbkdcxCH47m6WTukMnUw?width= 600&height=337&cropmode=none
What they really look like...
https://9sgbqq-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3mM_yG6AuDQr6ZE1LFA18VqNKfR6WBoYpYi-TYYZsmUCxlH1x3hAmhNVAWcVKnElSXvvI6PSNsrXWffqWEAcQt zRYT77UXIJ4gYkSCbsEBJLELU0j3Vx_IILYa7PsdY7fte0nIdK WtcsNb6VQ8Tzo7ZntE97y14BMpgso4MHwLfNI?width=1600&height=900&cropmode=none
Really quite bottom heavy...
https://9siana-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3mOtay2TrZLHL67zhH7cxsZBAgaGrqfw9VyLSOCVoAJmYsGNS 0de4GmBnoTQaoFnh2PCxVI-vBFWCs8DYbi4zEIjYIbXZKEQcEvwF8Q6pmU-mhtrwr59aVxSxT-pPmMCUvyi0pJCBzsvVvcInBhqhiXqfNKUFyo5blQtNAGE8-A6o?width=1600&height=900&cropmode=none
https://9si2hq-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3mYYCGSDulC9sIDHrdGYQ6VBmhpn-_BjqhO7kcFlIe8p9q0qazEOR_0jOQNKJijPZEIMJWytVgvyIo0 2peKc9HwkmCCw9dijIHzGSPVla0eKHWOPcB6hzsjmHxFlwxMaw wVU1x3AlkgLZMb47M4KvPFPAXKXJo7wxXxtlU6SYnUG0?width =1600&height=900&cropmode=none
https://9shrkg-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3m_yFvx4VyEmk68PpWUTHOVXSKy2c3dFbU9NNHIvG5Ibu4xQP ymGNO7KYFkgYKQ2lgQQSlnxOXU1_52JduUlmjTG3gfF1b7UnJg B0hf1W2IUT_mnXfZ8JEeDoVRm44Ws8HvW-o8o0IWhfYO2Q4PN0XK4Luo5WIIH2dPCgFujOd7U8?width=160 0&height=900&cropmode=none
Tubeway Army
https://9sguyg-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3mkfgsOGnGQLtMXY_fnfL0zVP8UGPiuSItgi4AYotoWONuFjs-seMsGuLhNIXailuJVN3RyT0J5mt8NLMn6RzDM56UWgFpY_90rc CiyBL9CpW3PStOCmNPkOZm1aYXiIMzPac7MuFn3mQNg4it2usD TOinp-3dSmemPGGCLlvAU1s?width=1600&height=900&cropmode=none
Too much flash
https://9siv1g-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y3mXzF0NtqmQizZfuLgGS61kYwGEKy9BaTV5w-KZ--u9m7GW6vnRLHp7AHdljPYA1AZasZi7UogMpKWVqF2V57FGllft o7PTh08KIRFiIyq9zXJyIgMz_MbC2-GYif3xlY6QM3el01UJuyclyWzV-GvU1tSn7c7sXuNPi9qqPtEzYc?width=1600&height=900&cropmode=none
gonna cost a few bob to revalve those beauts.
jandl100
21-02-2017, 20:30
If you have to ask the price you can't afford it ;)
Sherwood
21-02-2017, 20:32
I hope you're not in a flood risk area Justin!
If so, you'd better get some floats for all that tube stuff!
Geoff
That is some serious tubeage.
There's some silicon and code in them. When you power on the amps calibrate themselves according to the bias tests that are conducted every time you switch them off. It takes a couple of minutes to turn them off, and they take about the same before listening is allowed.
As per the 211 amps next to them, they are Austrian. So they must be good:D It's cold there, so they like valve amps I figure.
Despite the 400 Watts, they really didn't sound powerful. Very polite, not particularly dynamic i.e. balls out transient led, refined, and even handed. I keep thinking that. Even handed. The best term there is to describe them.
The 211s, on the other hand - more balls, more excitement, less refinement, faster bass, apparently more extended bass as measured by the dubious earbaiting device, and, well, not even handed. Bass is the name of the race with those.
I'll miss the Ayons a bit. Not that much. But a bit. Good amps. And they should be at the price.
cyclopse
21-02-2017, 22:56
There's some silicon and code in them. When you power on the amps calibrate themselves according to the bias tests that are conducted every time you switch them off. It takes a couple of minutes to turn them off, and they take about the same before listening is allowed.
As per the 211 amps next to them, they are Austrian. So they must be good:D It's cold there, so they like valve amps I figure.
Despite the 400 Watts, they really didn't sound powerful. Very polite, not particularly dynamic i.e. balls out transient led, refined, and even handed. I keep thinking that. Even handed. The best term there is to describe them.
The 211s, on the other hand - more balls, more excitement, less refinement, faster bass, apparently more extended bass as measured by the dubious earbaiting device, and, well, not even handed. Bass is the name of the race with those.
I'll miss the Ayons a bit. Not that much. But a bit. Good amps. And they should be at the price.
I have the integrated and that sounds similar. Great space around instruments but again polite and detailed.
Lol - they look amazing! But...
Despite the 400 Watts, they really didn't sound powerful. Very polite, not particularly dynamic i.e. balls out transient led, refined, and even handed. I keep thinking that. Even handed. The best term there is to describe them.
....nah, I'd suggest 'all fur and no knickers'! Amps for pee-soaked weenie-boys... :D;)
Something's defo not right there though, perhaps how the amp is biased (not much output in Class A), traffos not up to the job, or whatever, as they should be blowing your mind!
The four KT150s in the Copper amp, producing 50W Class A, produces a very big and powerful sound, but then that's not with (hard to drive) Apogees... Would be interesting sometime to hear the Copper amp with your speakers, to see whether it falls apart driving them or not.
Marco.
Lol - they look amazing! But...
....nah, I'd suggest 'all fur and no knickers'! Amps for pee-soaked weenie-boys... :D;)
Something's defo not right there though, perhaps how the amp is biased (not much output in Class A), traffos not up to the job, or whatever, as they should be blowing your mind!
The four KT150s in the Copper amp, producing 50W Class A, produces a very big and powerful sound, but then that's not with (hard to drive) Apogees... Would be interesting sometime to hear the Copper amp with your speakers, to see whether it falls apart driving them or not.
Marco.
The amp self-checks and in that respect is more advanced than any valve amp I have ever come across, so it was as it should be. Cyclopse came round and had a listen and will confirm they were OK.
Copper amp - what can it dump as a peek power output? Any idea? Bear in mind I have heard it and I agree it is dynamic - but that was with KT88s IIRC?
The amp self-checks and in that respect is more advanced than any valve amp I have ever come across, so it was as it should be. Cyclopse came round and had a listen and will confirm they were OK.
Yeah, I didn't mean that the amp was faulty, simply that with all those KT150s and 400W at the helm, it should've blown your head off and sounded 'huge' and powerful, with kick-ass dynamics, not "very polite, not particularly dynamic"! :nono:
That's the very LAST thing the Copper amp sounds like, at a quarter of its power.... When listening to the 400W beast, I'd have expected to have seen a reaction like :eek: :eek: :wow: :wow: :wowzer: :wowzer: than merely 'meh'....
;)
Copper amp - what can it dump as a peek power output? Any idea? Bear in mind I have heard it and I agree it is dynamic - but that was with KT88s IIRC?
Dunno the peek power output. I could find out. You heard it with KT120s. It's now been fitted with KT150s.
Marco.
Shouldnt need central heating anyway. Just a small fan to circulate the warm air. Must use a lot of power.
anthonyTD
22-02-2017, 13:34
The output is what ever maximum SPL your speakers will produce, not what the amp has on tap!
Yeah, I didn't mean that the amp was faulty, simply that with all those KT150s and 400W at the helm, it should've blown your head off and sounded 'huge' and powerful, with kick-ass dynamics, not "very polite, not particularly dynamic"! :nono:
That's the very LAST thing the Copper amp sounds like, at a quarter of its power.... When listening to the 400W beast, I'd have expected to have seen a reaction like :eek: :eek: :wow: :wow: :wowzer: :wowzer: than merely 'meh'....
;)
Dunno the peek power output. I could find out. You heard it with KT120s. It's now been fitted with KT150s.
Marco.
The output is what ever maximum SPL your speakers will produce, not what the amp has on tap!
Ha - well there you go! What's that likely to be then, any ideas? :D
Marco.
anthonyTD
22-02-2017, 13:48
What ever Tannoy specify the Monitor gold 15" to be, However, perceived dynamics is not all about maximum power, as experience has proven time after time! Some amplifiers, no matter how much power they have on tap have no life, or perceived dynamics, at reosnable listening levels, untill they are pushed, and by then are far too loud! With any amp though, it will depend greatly on Amp and speaker compatability.
Ha - well there you go! What's that likely to be then, any ideas? :D
Marco.
They are good amps, Marco, They really are. Just because they don't blow yer mind with dynamics, doesn't mean the way they present themselves isn't a very valid alternative. They will play loud in 4 Ohm pentode mode, and sound bold and architecturally strong at high volume. They do loud in a refined, effortless, somewhat laid back, easy manner. That's no less valid than fucking your head up with proficient current dumping like a Parasound A21. And that really will blow your mind at high volume at a tenth of the cost.
I liked them more than most people seemed to. I just appreciated their subtle approach, more so as time went on. My wife avidly prefers the 40 year old Accuphase M-60s. So did Jon the Apogee restorer only last weekend. Jerry couldn't be arsed to come round and listen to them.
They grew on me as time went on.
Most 211 circuits I hear I have to say sound very similar. They're usually far more dynamic than the Ayon. Bass dynamics and a fleshy, outward, full, dynamic sound, with an extended bottom end seem to be a common trait of the breed, single ended or PP. This is possibly at the expense of a refined top end it would seem. They can be a little brash up there with some speakers. Audio Note Tomei on AN/Es share many attributes of my amps. Even my amps driving AN/Es sound very similar in many ways to the Tomei. Maybe it is the circuit topologies being used rather than the valve. I can't be sure.
Anyway, enough of this subjectivism. It is total dross really. It is all in my head, and probably isn't in yours. It is a personal journey after all.:)
Guess I'll never be a hi-fi reviewer. I'm too aware that the words that I speak are meaningless:D
jandl100
22-02-2017, 19:44
Jerry couldn't be arsed to come round and listen to them.
:lol: It's true!
Just because they don't blow yer mind with dynamics, doesn't mean the way they present themselves isn't a very valid alternative.
:eek: I think Justin's been taken over by aliens.
cyclopse
22-02-2017, 19:44
They are good amps, Marco, They really are. Just because they don't blow yer mind with dynamics, doesn't mean the way they present themselves isn't a very valid alternative. They will play loud in 4 Ohm pentode mode, and sound bold and architecturally strong at high volume. They do loud in a refined, effortless, somewhat laid back, easy manner. That's no less valid than fucking your head up with proficient current dumping like a Parasound A21. And that really will blow your mind at high volume at a tenth of the cost.
I liked them more than most people seemed to. I just appreciated their subtle approach, more so as time went on. My wife avidly prefers the 40 year old Accuphase M-60s. So did Jon the Apogee restorer only last weekend. Jerry couldn't be arsed to come round and listen to them.
They grew on me as time went on.
Most 211 circuits I hear I have to say sound very similar. They're usually far more dynamic than the Ayon. Bass dynamics and a fleshy, outward, full, dynamic sound, with an extended bottom end seem to be a common trait of the breed, single ended or PP. This is possibly at the expense of a refined top end it would seem. They can be a little brash up there with some speakers. Audio Note Tomei on AN/Es share many attributes of my amps. Even my amps driving AN/Es sound very similar in many ways to the Tomei. Maybe it is the circuit topologies being used rather than the valve. I can't be sure.
Anyway, enough of this subjectivism. It is total dross really. It is all in my head, and probably isn't in yours. It is a personal journey after all.:)
Guess I'll never be a hi-fi reviewer. I'm too aware that the words that I speak are meaningless:D
Sure I checked them out. Self testing and protection is very elaborate. Sounds to me like the perfect qualities for today's hifi publications.
:eek: I think Justin's been taken over by aliens.
Not quite. I could have bought them for a superb price. I didn't:) And the owner sold them after just one listen. Aquired taste maybe...
They are damned expensive new and you are paying serious dosh for the finish and construction quality in general, plus the self-checking stuff must have cost a few bob to develop.
Sure I checked them out. Self testing and protection is very elaborate. Sounds to me like the perfect qualities for today's hifi publications.
The protection is elaborate. So elaborate in triode mode they'd shutdown every time I played Natural Mystic at volume - the intro bit that just gets louder and louder has a bass kick drum that Ayon's engineers obviously decided was too much! Superb track that, though, the Apogees just freakin' love it.
jandl100
22-02-2017, 19:59
Natural Mystic
Que? - what / who is that?
Que? - what / who is that?
Bob M. Ever livin', ever givin', Jah Rasterfari Bob, that is.
Spotify it.
jandl100
22-02-2017, 20:05
Ah, it is the BobM I found on t'Spot.
OK - on my playlist. :)
Ah, it is the BobM I found on t'Spot.
OK - on my playlist. :)
You need a few beers and the finest Jamaican herb to get Bob's respect from above I'm sure. Never mind, tis great without:)
cyclopse
22-02-2017, 20:12
The protection is elaborate. So elaborate in triode mode they'd shutdown every time I played Natural Mystic at volume - the intro bit that just gets louder and louder has a bass kick drum that Ayon's engineers obviously decided was too much! Superb track that, though, the Apogees just freakin' love it.
I cannot remember if a change to the 4 or 8 ohm tap was needed to trip the output?
They are good amps, Marco, They really are.
I'll take your word for it, mate, as I haven't heard them. It's just that any piece of hi-fi equipment referred to as "very polite and not particularly dynamic" I tend to steer (widely) clear of ;)
I'd like to hear them driving my Tannoys, which are a completely different load from your 'gees....
Marco.
I cannot remember if a change to the 4 or 8 ohm tap was needed to trip the output?
It happened on both with enough welly. Pentode survived it - always, at any level the speaker could handle.
Which got me into a conversation with Jon. I can't for the life of me understand how my 211 amps drive the Aps as well as they do.
Factual shite: I believe the spec on the Ayon site is still for the previous Orthos iteration i.e. the first one. They just might be under rating them though. Reviews of the II version seem sure 400 Watts is the pentode delivery, with around 250 in triode?
You heard it with KT120s. It's now been fitted with KT150s.
Marco.
Fact police says otherwise. IMHO it was WAY before you got KT120s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odlrzwQekoM
I'll take your word for it, mate, as I haven't heard them. It's just that any piece of hi-fi equipment referred to as "very polite and not particularly dynamic" I tend to steer (widely) clear of ;)
I'd like to hear them driving my Tannoys, which are a completely different load from your 'gees....
Marco.
Well I guess you never will. I'd like to hear them driving Tom's Tannoys because that's the best pair of Tannoys I have ever heard, apart from Kingdom Royals, which are TBH a lot better than even Tom's.
If yours are as good as Tom's you're a lucky chappie.
I think they'd beat the copper amps driving Tannoys or 66s. My hunch, anyway. And by a margin I'd wager. But that's just my opinion.
Ah yes, I stand corrected... That would've been when I had my original GEC KT88s :)
So many changes (improvements) to the amp since then! However, the core parts of my system (as demonstrated at that show six years ago - how time flies) have remained the same, and I have no desire to change any of them.
That's the satisfaction of owning a well-sorted and settled system! :cool:
Marco.
Well I guess you never will. I'd like to hear them driving Tom's Tannoys because that's the best pair of Tannoys I have ever heard. They rip.
If yours are as good as Tom's your a lucky chappie.
I think they'd beat the copper amps driving Tannoys or 66s. My hunch, anyway. And by a margin I'd wager. But that's just my opinion.
Who knows? You could be right. I guess we'll never know.
As for Tom's Tannoys, I fully intend to pop down to his place later in the year, so will look forward to giving them a listen :cool:
Marco.
Edited my previous post... but yeah go to Tom's. Really important;)
Ah yes, I stand corrected... That would've been when I had my original GEC KT88s :)
So many changes (improvements) to the amp since then! However, the core parts of my system (as demonstrated at that show six years ago - how time flies) have remained the same, and I have no desire to change any of them.
That's the satisfaction of owning a well-sorted and settled system! :cool:
Marco.
Shame about the SQ in the video it was a shite camera. That room did sound good, all, whereas the video sounds bad.
Edited my previous post... but yeah go to Tom's. Really important;)
Yeah, just read the edit... So you rated the Kingdom Royals?
I didn't, when I heard them at one of the shows (I forget which one). They sounded merely 'ok', which for the money being asked was very disappointing. For me, the addition of an extra driver for the bass spoiled the musical cohesion of a true point source transducer, which Tannoy DCs are renowned for.
Nope, for me, a 'proper' Tannoy DC has one (big) driver doing the whole lot itself! Also, for me, the vintage drive units (with smaller magnets and lighter cones) have a unique sound all of their own, which is faster and with an overall tonality that just sounds more musically convincing, compared with what Tannoy are producing now. Progress? No, sonically, not for me.
What I heard could've been due to a number of factors, of course (the signature of the SS amps powering them perhaps and the dire music being played, amongst other things), and I wouldn't write them off on that one experience, especially at show, but I certainly didn't leave thinking that my Lockies sounded broken in comparison, that's for sure, and neither did a mate who was with me either! ;)
Marco.
Shame about the SQ in the video it was a shite camera. That room did sound good, all, whereas the video sounds bad.
Yeah, I enjoyed doing that one - in fact all of us who took part did.
We spent HOURS the night before optimising the set-up of the system, dressing cables, applying the use of digital noise filters, for CD replay, tweaking the T/T set up, so it was spot on, positioning the speakers under Mana, etc, to eliminate the negative effects of the room as much as possible, when others were down at the bar getting pished! :rolleyes: :)
However, all the effort put in was rewarded, as we got rave reviews about that system from just about everyone who heard it, so that was satisfying. Once again the experience simply hammered home the importance of diligent attention to set up [rather than just plonking it all on an 'old sideboard', hooked up with any old shite, and hoping for the best] - and getting every component to work together symbiotically, as a system!
Marco.
Re Kingdom Royals. First time heard not impressed at Whittlebury. 2nd time heard with Thrax amps and MSB DAC at Whittlebury - seriously impressed.
Well, there you go! It was probably the first one at Whittlebury where I heard the Royals, and yes they were disappointing. Thrax amps? Don't know them. Are they valve-based or SS?
Regardless though, for me there's still a fundamental difference in the sonic and musical presentation of modern and vintage Tannoys - and I don't think that any amplifier(s) would fundamentally alter that inherent 'signature'.
Also, how much are Kingdom Royals? I suspect you could probably buy a small house in North Wales for the price tag! ;)
I just think the pricing of high-end audio equipment now has gone daft.
Marco
2nd time was Carbon Edition I think £45K odd. Thrax amps are valve amps. Look them up. Very nice indeedy.
It was top notch in that room. Have pics can't be arsed to post.
£45k... Mentalist money for a pair of speakers, and yes I know you can spend MUCH more! I'd love to know how they arrive at these prices - the breakdown of the costings would be interesting to read... ;)
I'll stick with the 'SPPV' route of owing a £4k pair of speakers, which sound like they cost £45k :eyebrows:
Marco.
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