View Full Version : The General Election
walpurgis
30-03-2015, 09:10
The run up to the General Election has started. I expect we'll see the usual crass muckraking and mud slinging. Our elections become more like American ones each time.
And who do we have to choose from in the 'leadership' stakes? The glib 'polished schoolboy', (Malfoy) Cameron, alongside Nick 'won't get a look in' Clegg (does his mum really still cut his hair?) and of course, that lisping, rubber faced drip, Milliband (would you really want him as leader if we were facing a war for instance?). What a bunch.
It'll all end up as nothing beneficial to the British people. No matter who gets in, we'll still get stitched up from every angle.
Another 5 years of the same and we are humped.
National assets being stripped, deliberate disinformation, corruption, lack of transparency, and now it seems...disregard for public opinion?
"Party may not give details of welfare cuts (projected 12bn) until AFTER the Election as "It may not be relevant".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/29/tories-welfare-cuts-details-reveal-after-general-election
Arrogant, complacent and, frankly, a bit dangerous imo.
Suspect as the unemployed and disabled have already been hit, they are moving further up the ladder to the "working poor" and perhaps even hitting pensioners (where the vast majority of the welfare budget goes)
Keep it quiet till after the election, don't want to upset the "grey vote"?
It'll all end up as nothing beneficial to the British people. No matter who gets in, we'll still get stitched up from every angle.
Well, maybe 99% of the people...
Pretty typical of Duncan Smith et al. he is the worst kind of politician. Glad I wont hopefully have to put up with his kind much longer...
They're all lying, corrupt and self-serving scumbags, so I'm really not sure how I'm going to vote, as none of the idiots or their policies interest me. I normally wouldn't bother, but for a general election I'll make the effort - even if that effort is miniscule.
I suspect that when it comes to it, I'll just simply close my eyes, place the pen somewhere on the voting slip, and whichever name the pen lands nearest, will be who gets my vote, such is the extent of my apathy....
Marco.
I haven't voted since 1987. It only encourages the bastards.
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 14:03
Geoff I think your list of potential leaders missed the most influential. Since it is certain to be a hung parliament, and any conservative majority wouldnt be sufficient to beat Labour and its Scottish affiliates, the balance of power will be held by the SNP (now do you understand Marco why I was genuinely keen to let the jocks go and f*** up their own lives with proper devolution). The true leader of Great Britain will be Nicola Sturgeon. :doh:
How stupid is that? - a minority in the frozen wastes to the north of Hadrians wall, will run the whole show by virtue of carrying the balance of power in a hung parliament. With luck, I'll be in France ...
(No wonder the jocks rigged the votes to stay in the UK - that and their canny awareness that oil prices were about to tank)
Geoff I think your list of potential leaders missed the most influential. Since it is certain to be a hung parliament, and any conservative majority wouldnt be sufficient to beat Labour and its Scottish affiliates, the balance of power will be held by the SNP (now do you understand Marco why I was genuinely keen to let the jocks go and f*** up their own lives with proper devolution). The true leader of Great Britain will be Nicola Sturgeon. :doh:
How stupid is that? - a minority in the frozen wastes to the north of Hadrians wall, will run the whole show by virtue of carrying the balance of power in a hung parliament. With luck, I'll be in France ...
(No wonder the jocks rigged the votes to stay in the UK - that and their canny awareness that oil prices were about to tank)
Well, it's a point of view!
Oldpinkman
30-03-2015, 17:00
Well, it's a point of view!
I believe Marco was quite firmly of the opinion that the results of the independence referendum were rigged to obtain a "No" vote - and since the referendum count was carried out by the tartan skirt wearers, they presumably were the ones responsible for rigging it. I begged to differ at the time...
Of course, Richard, and that remains my feeling. However, let's not drag all that stuff back up again. In terms of the general election, I really couldn't give a shite. Whatever happens, happens.
Little (if any) of the policies will directly impact anyway on my (carefully designed to be as self-sufficient and divorced from the 'system' as possible) lifestyle, so I really couldn't care less who 'wins', as the whole of politics, and those who form a part of it, is corrupt to the core!
Marco.
walpurgis
30-03-2015, 17:26
I can't see the (possible, eventual) influence of the SNP making things any worse than it has been with either of the bunches of wankers that have been running things so far. The Scots aren't stupid. The wellbeing of Scotland is as dependant on who is in No.10 as is that of the rest of the UK.
For me, *anything* that removes some (no matter how small) of the ability of the chinless wonders in Westminster to 'boss' the rest of the UK, the better, and as such is most welcome. If the SNP's influence in matters achieves that, then great! :)
It's time that all those of us who live 'north of Watford junction' had our interests catered for more, instead of being treated as second-class citizens, as usually happens.
Marco.
Biggest relief for me after May will no longer having to look at Cameron's shiny mug every time I look at the news.
Good riddance to the fishpointing gammon faced diddy...
walpurgis
30-03-2015, 21:22
I wouldn't put money on it Gary. It'll be a very close thing either way I reckon. As has been mentioned, a hung parliament looks almost inevitable. We may have to continue putting up with Cameron's slippery ways and visage.
I saw a snippet of the BBC breakfast show this morning where the newt (Ken Livingston), Count Dracula (Michael Howard) and Pantsdown (Paddy Ashdown) were talking about voters thinking there were no choices between the parties. The presenter mentioned New Labour to Ken and Dracula interupted to say there was nothing New Labour about Mr Bean (Glen Millerband) and that they were old Labour in their policies.
This was quite encouraging to hear a Tory Lord considers them old Labour. Heck I might just give Steve Miller Band my vote for that alone.
Come on you reds!
Oldpinkman
31-03-2015, 05:41
I confess to some very unaltruistic self interest here. Regardless of what the wise faithful at aos think, those with their own shilling to lose, namely the markets, will batter the pound whilst there is doubt, if there is a coalition, and if labour run it. And I hope to need to buy 50000 euro during that period. So since none of you care, please vote Cameron. And viva Alexis tsipras!
Timeo danaos et lists ferentes, to borrow from the wise words of the thunderbird 2 pilot.;)
Edit - oops sorry - however, to clarify the shilling I refer to was the old 2 tanners, 4 threepenny bits, as a reference to money, rather than that awfully exciting business of plugging or promoting whilst pretending not to :)
Cameron? I don't think so, sorry... I'm seriously not a fan, for many reasons, not least of which he is a figurehead for the Westminster 'chinless wonders' - and I want to REDUCE their influence, not increase it.
The most likely scenario is that I'll vote for Plaid Cymru. Yee-hah for Welsh independence! :hifive: :yesbruv:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
31-03-2015, 08:37
Yes - I didn't have any serious expectations of influencing AOS members voting intentions
Happily my mate Tsipras is doing his bit for the Pinkie Euro deposit fund, as only a Greek can. The funny thing here of course is everyone knows that they will try to say what is needed to get the money, then welch on the deal once they have the money but everyone has to pretend they wont!! Still the euro is back over 1.37 to the £. You have to love these Bubbles, and their naughty fibbing!
Spectral Morn
31-03-2015, 10:42
Mainland Politics are to a degree irelevant here in NI, as lets be honest Westminister doesn't really give a toss about us, and as none of the parties organise here, except through surrogates Ulster Unionist (Conservative) SDLP (Labour) but don't really count, which leaves paramilitaries and extreme parties in power, none of whom I feel any affinity towards so I won't be voting this year again.
I hate this because I deeply appreciate the sacrifice all those who died made to give me the ability, freedom to vote but sadly its a case of vote for what :(
Regards Neil
westminster only cares about london and home counties....oh and the politicians of course.....oh and senior civil servants..
cyclopse
31-03-2015, 16:37
Of course, Richard, and that remains my feeling. However, let's not drag all that stuff back up again. In terms of the general election, I really couldn't give a shite. Whatever happens, happens.
Little (if any) of the policies will directly impact anyway on my (carefully designed to be as self-sufficient and divorced from the 'system' as possible) lifestyle, so I really couldn't care less who 'wins', as the whole of politics, and those who form a part of it, is corrupt to the core!
Marco.
I don't think you can escape from the issue that Politics affects virtually everything that we do. From the employment laws that underpin our work conditions to education policy for our children and taxation from petrol/diesel (think they have you on this one Marco) to vat and foreign policy.
This is not an election broadcast for a particular party but all please spare the small amount of time to vote. The parties are not all the same.
Oldpinkman
31-03-2015, 16:59
Mainland Politics are to a degree irelevant here in NI, as lets be honest Westminister doesn't really give a toss about us, and as none of the parties organise here, except through surrogates Ulster Unionist (Conservative) SDLP (Labour) but don't really count, which leaves paramilitaries and extreme parties in power, none of whom I feel any affinity towards so I won't be voting this year again.
I hate this because I deeply appreciate the sacrifice all those who died made to give me the ability, freedom to vote but sadly its a case of vote for what :(
Regards Neil
I think that's a first class post Neil. I have been avoiding taking this seriously, because politics is a sure way of falling out in a place like this, and I was just looking at being light-hearted about how things seem to (very unusually) be going my way, now we have made it to the end of a long hard slog, and can look to buy our house in France
But voting is a privilige and it is saddening to see all those who won't bother because they see themselves rather patronisingly and arrogantly as above it all, or even more sadly in your case because you feel you have no choices you fully support. However, to choose nothing is to choose to leave power to the minority extremists who can be bothered. Although many oppressive regimes are the result of military coups in smaller nations, many of the worst oppressions of man were voted into power. Hitler and Stalin (or rather his predecessor Lenin) would be a couple of fine examples.
Too often we get the government we deserve. Patronising abstention from voting might get you UKIP or the National Front running the country (the latter looking a credible possibility in France). If you end up with a Fascist state because minority activists dominate a poll you are rather superiorly staying away from, you will have the government you deserve, and no amount of whinging about it will help you.
Exercise your democratic right - don't leave the choice of government to extremist activists. And recognise the privilige you have compared with those in (say) North Korea
If you don't vote, then keep your peace about the state of the country. And understand you have the government you deserve.
westminster only cares about london and home counties....oh and the politicians of course.....oh and senior civil servants..
Hence why I hate the fuckers with a vengeance!!! I loathe the unfair and blatant bias...
What I care about, is what's happening LOCALLY, to me, and therefore what could impinge directly on my lifestyle. As I live in Wales, the chinless wonders in Westminster couldn't give a toss about that, therefore I couldn't give a toss about them (or their selfish and insular policies). Simples! :)
Marco.
Not that it matters locally due to the encumbant being voted in even if he is dead as long as wearing the right colour of badge but I always vote. My dad and many others gave 6 years of his life and a fair bit more psychologically. it shortened his life too. he and all the fallen allowed us the right to vote so people should use it
Hi Stephen,
I don't think you can escape from the issue that Politics affects virtually everything that we do. From the employment laws that underpin our work conditions to education policy for our children and taxation from petrol/diesel (think they have you on this one Marco) to vat and foreign policy.
Of course. However, for me it's all about divorcing oneself from the 'system', as far as possible. That's why we've built our own 'little island', so to speak, which enables us to shield ourselves from many of the things that affect others.
Some stuff will 'penetrate our force shield', of course, (such as fuel tax, although I must admit I rarely look at the actual price per litre when I'm at a petrol station; I simply fill up the tank, and it costs what it costs, until I repeat the process again), but we're generally in a fortunate position to offer a virtual 'two-fingered salute' to the majority of governmental policies :)
Marco.
Exercise your democratic right - don't leave the choice of government to extremist activists. And recognise the privilige you have compared with those in (say) North Korea
If you don't vote, then keep your peace about the state of the country. And understand you have the government you deserve.
Even though you are voting for a bunch of self-serving corrupt (to the hilt) wankers, no matter which major party it is, I completely agree with that. It's about the only reason why I bother!
Marco.
Exercise your democratic right - don't leave the choice of government to extremist activists. And recognise the privilige you have compared with those in (say) North Korea
If you don't vote, then keep your peace about the state of the country. And understand you have the government you deserve.
Cobblers (with respect ;) ) just because you can't find anyone worth voting for does not mean you lose the right to complain about the state of the country. As a net contributor in taxes I am paying for the bloody thing so I have every right to voice my concerns if it is being run badly.
Just because North Korea is a bag of shite does not mean I am automatically 'privileged'. Frankly if I had my way only net taxpayers would be allowed to vote.
Soldiers did not fight and/or die to give us the right to vote. Speak to any soldier from any war I don't care how far back you go, their only concerns were themselves and their immediate comrades. They fought because they did not want to let their mates down.
Trying to guilt trip people into supporting and participating in what is, essentially, a meaningless charade is not a good thing to be doing.
I have more than a little sympathy with that view, however I still think that you should use your vote, in whichever way you see fit. It's a fundamental part of democracy.
Marco.
Cobblers (with respect ;) ) just because you can't find anyone worth voting for does not mean you lose the right to complain about the state of the country. As a net contributor in taxes I am paying for the bloody thing so I have every right to voice my concerns if it is being run badly.
Just because North Korea is a bag of shite does not mean I am automatically 'privileged'. Frankly if I had my way only net taxpayers would be allowed to vote.
Soldiers did not fight and/or die to give us the right to vote. Speak to any soldier from any war I don't care how far back you go, their only concerns were themselves and their immediate comrades. They fought because they did not want to let their mates down.
Trying to guilt trip people into supporting and participating in what is, essentially, a meaningless charade is not a good thing to be doing.
I did not say they did. I said their sacrifice allowed us to stay free and still have that right.
Stratmangler
01-04-2015, 16:47
Soldiers did not fight and/or die to give us the right to vote.
That is cobblers - soldiers were very much involved in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
You'll find that the soldiers concerned did most of the killing, and the folk they were killing were ordinary working class folk.
Not that it matters locally due to the encumbant being voted in even if he is dead as long as wearing the right colour of badge but I always vote. My dad and many others gave 6 years of his life and a fair bit more psychologically. it shortened his life too. he and all the fallen allowed us the right to vote so people should use it
:clap:
Bad things happen when good men do nothing.
walpurgis
01-04-2015, 18:22
Consider what your vote gets you. A 'government', but no matter which so called party gets elected, it's all largely a facade. The real power is behind the scenes and held by global industry and banking. What happens here and around the world is not decided by governments. What we see as 'government at work', is an act and just there to make us think our votes have got us something, while the powers that (really) be laugh behind our backs.
If for instance an independant party (i.e., not Labour/Tory) actually showed signs of being a real threat to the status quo, not doubt those offering such opposition would be mysteriously, but publicly discredited/disgraced/bankrupted by some means or develop strange, debilitating illnesses or have fatal accidents.
I'm firmly convinced that conspiracy is at work, with America at the fore.
Consider what your vote gets you. A 'government', but no matter which so called party gets elected, it's all largely a facade. The real power is behind the scenes and held by global industry and banking. What happens here and around the world is not decided by governments. What we see as 'government at work', is an act and just there to make us think our votes have got us something, while the powers that (really) be laugh behind our backs.
That is the unfortunate and unpalatable reality, and why I couldn't give a flying fuck who 'wins' the forthcoming general election!
Marco.
walpurgis
02-04-2015, 10:31
The big TV debate is on tonight. It means little in real terms, we all know what these jokers are like anyway. I hope Farage makes the others look inadequate again and has them blustering and garbling. He's good at that!
Oldpinkman
02-04-2015, 10:58
The big TV debate is on tonight. It means little in real terms, we all know what these jokers are like anyway. I hope Farage makes the others look inadequate again and has them blustering and garbling. He's good at that!
So was Hitler. Do you speak German? Have you heard any of his speeches? My major concern with democracy is that the people nominally entitled to choose the government have not the first idea of what's actually involved in running a country at a technical level. There is more to success than being popular. If you can't follow Hitlers example and annex a neighbour or two for raw materials, and enslave a large Jewish and Slav population then you end up using the Irish Portuguese Greek solution, and being popular spending money on the children using your credit card. Then their credit cards. Then iou's based on the grandchildrens credit cards. Then new credit cards just to pay the interest on the old credit cards. It's a blinding wheeze all the time dipstick lenders hell bent on growing profits lend to you at 3% or so, but gets much less funny when they decide your IOU aren't worth the bog-roll they are written on, you can't earn enough to pay them off if you live to be 100, you are eternally promising that you will stop borrowing more and only spend what you earn within 5 years - starting in 6 years time, and again next year, (If you are Greek you then tell fibs about how much you earn, how much you've borrowed, and just about everything else)
The smile gets wiped off the borrowers face pretty quickly when rates jump to 7% (for most nations the "break" borrowing cost, if they are not prepared (or able - euro members) to deflate their currency to dust). Ask Ireland, Portugal, Greece. Give it a bit longer ask Spain and Italy. I don't think it will be long before you could ask France too.
So for me - I am utterly uninterested in the promises that get made by either party (any party, but the minorities are a distraction). We all promise people what we think they want to hear when we are trying to be popular with them (read get votes). Nope - I think track record is the only thing worth considering. And it is pretty clear who has the best track record for working the kids credit card to pay for lovely things, and who has the best track record for stuffing coins in the piggy bank. Astonishingly, given their unpopularity for not just promising more sweeties and teddies to everyone, and eternal Christmas holidays, there appear to have been enough others who think likewise to get the piggy bank stuffers in power a few times in the past. Just look at how much Labour increased the national debt during a time of prosperity and growth (global - so not caused by their policies) compared with how little the Conservatives have increased it (note not stopped increasing it, or heaven forbid started reducing it) during a time of recession (global - so not due to their policies).
No I don't like Cameron either, and would avoid him at a social engagement, but I know which team I would rather leave in charge of the stationary cupboard, and hope to come back and not find all the pencils nicked and flogged down the local market.
Of course, the real bummer is you have to vote for a party and not a policy. There are policies I would choose from each of the major parties, maybe even some of the honesty of UKIP, but you can't cherry pick and vote individually for each policy. So one has to pick one party that on balance one thinks will do the least damage, however much one would like to cherry pick some of the other parties policies. This reality seems to have completely escaped the local lib-dem candidate (we are fortress Conservative down here) who thinks I give a flying f*** about him as a person, and will vote lib-dem cos he's nicer than the conservative candidate (a low bar - that one) and kisses more babies than she does. Grow up - I'm voting for a party not an MP - its a national government election!
walpurgis
02-04-2015, 11:20
Ermm. Maybe. :hmm:
I live in a safe Labour constituency so even if I do vote it will only be a protest vote. What is the point?
Here's my summing up of the parties. Don't need to see the 'debates' they will all promise jam tomorrow.
Labour - idiots who think money grows on trees, track record of disaster starting in 1945 and continuing from there. Most of the problems we have today in this country stem directly from their times in power. Leader is a communist born into money who has never spent a day in his life and comes across as an imbecile.
Conservative - probably my natural choice but not since Thatcher. Too many career politicians in the party only interested in their bank balance and prestige. Failed to stop immigration (250000 net incomers last year alone), failed to exit EU or even reform it from the rip off disaster that it is. Gay 'marriage' FFS. Leader born into money, never spent a day in his life, comes across as a career politician, which is what he is, probably looking to a cushy well paid job in the EU which is why he loves it so much.
UKIP - make a lot of sense in some ways (quit EU, stop immigration, restore the British principle of personal liberty) but the party appears to be packed with buffoons who don't have a clue. Leader at least has some real-world experience and some genuine conviction.
Green - complete idiots who think you can run a modern economy from the power of windmills and that money grows on trees. Leader just some stupid housewife.
Let's face it there is not a great choice is there?
walpurgis
02-04-2015, 11:42
Nice one Martin. Echoing my thoughts again. ;)
I live in a safe Labour constituency so even if I do vote it will only be a protest vote. What is the point?
Here's my summing up of the parties. Don't need to see the 'debates' they will all promise jam tomorrow.
Labour - idiots who think money grows on trees, track record of disaster starting in 1945 and continuing from there. Most of the problems we have today in this country stem directly from their times in power. Leader is a communist born into money who has never spent a day in his life and comes across as an imbecile.
Conservative - probably my natural choice but not since Thatcher. Too many career politicians in the party only interested in their bank balance and prestige. Failed to stop immigration (250000 net incomers last year alone), failed to exit EU or even reform it from the rip off disaster that it is. Gay 'marriage' FFS. Leader born into money, never spent a day in his life, comes across as a career politician, which is what he is, probably looking to a cushy well paid job in the EU which is why he loves it so much.
UKIP - make a lot of sense in some ways (quit EU, stop immigration, restore the British principle of personal liberty) but the party appears to be packed with buffoons who don't have a clue. Leader at least has some real-world experience and some genuine conviction.
Green - complete idiots who think you can run a modern economy from the power of windmills and that money grows on trees. Leader just some stupid housewife.
Let's face it there is not a great choice is there?
It's a bit simplistic for me I'm afraid. My reality is more nuanced than that.
All of the parties have something I'd agree with and plenty I don't. Remember you are voting for a consistency MP not a government. That only happens if enough MPs of a particular party get elected to form a government.
My advice to anybody would be to at least find out as much as you can about all the candidates in your constituency, including their voting records in parliament if they're a sitting MP. Then decide which you'll vote for.
I happen to know our current Labour MP and he's not a bad bloke. Indeed he's got more sense about him than his Conservative or Lib Den opponents. He's also stood by his constituents in many issues, in particular justice for those who've suffered industrial diseases and is in favour of the living wage.
Joking aside about Millibean I'll vote for for the current MP as I can't see his opponents doing a better job.
It's a bit simplistic for me I'm afraid. My reality is more nuanced than that.
.
Well I could have done a complex version but it would have been very long, taken me ages and could still be summed up by the points I have already made.
Voting for the person rather than the party seems perfectly valid to me. The big problem I have with Labour is that they promise the down trodden jam tomorrow and then when they get in they feck up the economy so the down trodden get even more down trodden.
You have to run a country like a business. Minimise waste, maximise efficiency and put some of the profits away for a rainy day. It is not rocket science but it requires people who have experience, intelligence and conviction. We just don't seem to be attracting those sort of people into politics.
Firebottle
02-04-2015, 12:11
So one has to pick one party that on balance one thinks will do the least damage,
Is there any politician who could actually make a good fist at running the country at a profit, like big business has to? I think not :doh:
Is there any politician who could actually make a good fist at running the country at a profit, like big business has to? I think not :doh:
Why do you think the country has to be run as profit making entity? Profit for whom exactly? What does that make us, assets, liabilities, staff, shareholders???
Surely all a country has to do is ensure its spending equals its revenues? Leave the profit making to the business.
Too many have drank the cool aid, were appointing people who will make decisions about the best interests of the country and their communities, not a firm of liquidators
? What does that make us, assets, liabilities, staff, shareholders???
All four ;)
Yes balancing the books is essential but so is generating a surplus that can be used when the global economy goes into downturn - something that is beyond the control of an individual country. That way when times are tight you have something to fall back on. No different from you or I stashing a bonus or a windfall away in the bank instead of blowing it on a holiday or a flash car. If you unexpectedly get made redundant a year later then you are glad you did not spunk it away.
Oldpinkman
02-04-2015, 13:02
All four ;)
Yes balancing the books is essential but so is generating a surplus that can be used when the global economy goes into downturn - something that is beyond the control of an individual country. That way when times are tight you have something to fall back on. No different from you or I stashing a bonus or a windfall away in the bank instead of blowing it on a holiday or a flash car. If you unexpectedly get made redundant a year later then you are glad you did not spunk it away.
When you say "a surplus that can be used when the global economy goes into downturn...to fall back on ...stashing it away etc" you sound like you are talking about the personal equivalent of bank savings as opposed to bank borrowings. Zero national debt and positive reserves on deposit in the form of net holdings of other govt debt. Presumably you didn't mean that. But I can't work out what you do mean. I think to the extent we both want the country to only spend what it can afford, we are singing from the same hymn sheet - but there is no possibility of running to a negative borrowings situation
The name of the game is to stabilise borrowings at a level which is affordable. In the short term to "balance the budget" by earning what we spend - on average, over a period. Nobody thinks in terms of paying off the credit cards - just not using new ones to pay the interest on the existing ones.
Come on. Seriously. I can see you are no fan of the EU (although don't imagine Nissan are going to want to invest in the UK for the UK market alone, if it is not part of the EU). I can see immigration troubles you to the point of blind generalisations (Thierry Henry and Patrice Vierra are some of the immigrants - not everyone is a cynical benefit exploiter - the issue is more with benefit and NHS abuse than immigration per se). Can you see UKIP running the company?
The problem with "I don't care who runs it, they're all as bad as each other, and my vote doesn't count" is that you end up with Hitler running the country, or perhaps almost as bad - nobody running the country due to a hung parliament - and you start to find out what living under a really bad government is all about (right on your doorstep - take a look at Greece)
I did mean zero national debt and positive holdings - although I agree that is a goal of perfection to aim for, a compass reading if you like. The likelihood of actually reaching that situation is slim to none I agree unless we discover oil in the Pennines. In reality if we can balance the books in the good times we can afford to borrow a little in the bad times. You will recall that the Thatcher government paid off the loans to the IMF, balanced the books and made a start on paying down the national debt. It's not impossible, with good stewardship, to at least get back to that position.
The EU thing is simple enough. You stop giving them free money, you stop uncontrolled immigration from EU countries, you stop enacting any of their laws which you don't like or which don't suit the UK. Everything else stays the same. Nissan will still be able to build their cars here and sell them to people on continental Europe. Don't forget that Europe exports a lot more to us than we do to them. Imposing trade embargos as some sort of punishment would hurt them a lot, and they are already struggling. The reality is they would have to accept it as fait accompli. They will miss the billions we pump in to keep the whole, sorry enterprise going.
I'm not against Thierry Henri coming here to play football - but current immigration has two pitfalls:
1) There is too much and we do not have the infrastructure to cope, not do we have the money or the space to build it. Wages are driven down, rent and house prices are driven up
2) The quality of the immigrants is for the vast part, poor. We need qualified, experienced medical staff, or engineers or whatever. Fine , let them in. We need unskilled labour, people with mental health issues, peasants from the third world who have no skills, speak little English and are effectively unemployable? No.
I appreciate it is shit where they come from and if I was them I would be here or on my way too, so I don't blame them but the fact is we can't afford to keep them here, we already have enough dependants to feed and house. Should we let everyone in the whole world who wants to, to come here and live? How many people would that be? Two billion, three billion? Where do we stop? There is just no logic to it and more to the point no other country in the world does it so why do we?
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/911/PcZuwa.jpg
Marco.
Oldpinkman
02-04-2015, 15:59
Macca
No modern nation has zero national debt. Not even Germany. Even Germany isn't trying for it. A bit of debt is healthy and in practice is how economies are financed. The issue is debt spiralling out of control on the back of eternal promises that the surplus part of "balance" will be tomorrow. It is allowing debt as percentage of GDP to become too high as an absolute, and failing to balance a budget over an economic cycle (have surpluses some years equal defecits other years). But yes - this is the key issue, and in terms of credibility and track record, only the conservatives are likely to fix it. If another recession is around the corner, then conservative policies will fail to get there.
The EU position is naieve. I promise you, external potential investors like Nissan see an EU market (I have worked for a UK PLC taken over by a large American Corporate, and for a business with a Japanese principal investor - they are not interested in the UK market - they are interested in an EU market 10 times the size). Arguably it is a barrier being out of the Euro, although I wouldn't want to remove the barrier by joining it. If major foreign corporates want to invest production facilities outside the EU on the basis it is the same thing whether you are in or out, they will invest in Turkey - or China, where labour and other costs are a fraction of here. We don't own the Empire any more - our trading relationships have changed. The top 100 companies chief executives appear not to share your analysis. Doubtless they fail to properly understand how their companies make money
Your analysis of immigration is more emotive than rational. That's not to say there are no issues, and nothing to fix. There are, and UKIP have done a valuable job raising the issue to get it centre stage for all political parties. But "immigrants cause house prices to go up" is emotive not rational. Surplus easy credit, lack of returns on cash deposits, an ownership culture - but mainly world asset bubbles drive house prices up. They are not short of land, and have tighter immigration rules in Australia and China to pick but 2 countries experiencing rampant house price growth. I suspect, at some point, probably quite soon, the UK is likely to follow the US, Spain, France and others and see falling house prices. If the housing market crashes, will you be calling for more immigration to fix it? There are apparantly over 1 million empty homes in the UK
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-than-a-million-homes-currently-lie-empty-in-britain-9456263.html
(shelter put the figure at about 300,000. It depends how you count multiple homes - not technically empty. I know personally at least 3 individuals with more than 3 UK homes). Do we need another million immigrants to fill them, and achieve balance?
The problem with emotive analyses of problems, and emotive solutions to them, is that proposing them makes you feel better, but if they are not really the underlying cause of the problem, then following the solution doesn't fix anything.
The immigration issue is European wide. Hence the rise of UKIP lookalikes in France , Germany, Italy, Belgium, Greece and others. Nationalism is a rising political trend again. We can agree to differ about the nature of the problem, but it is wrong to say "no other country in the world does it". As one who is about to be an EU immigrant in France, I can promise you the French are very hot on this subject.
We need unskilled labour, people with mental health issues, peasants from the third world who have no skills, speak little English and are effectively unemployable? No.
Do you mean Scousers?
Stratmangler
02-04-2015, 17:08
Do you mean Scousers?
:rfl:
walpurgis
02-04-2015, 18:55
There was a programme on TV last night about car crime. It included two illegal immigrant participants who were bragging about how good they were at crime and how easy it is to get away with in Britain. One a Romanian and an Asian of some sort.
There are now droves of these sorts of criminal immigrants in this country, Illegal and otherwise. This is our reward for having a benevolent (virtually non-existent) immigration policy and virtual lack of repatriation. All initiated in the fifties in the name of 'cheap labour' for the benefit of industry, regardless of the impact of our country, which is now way overcrowded, with standards being dragged down to gutter levels. There is the famous "rivers of blood" quote, which never actually existed, but it might as well have done. Because we've already had that courtesy of Moslem terrorists. Again, all down to our so called 'immigration policy'.
Just stating the facts. Not expressing a view (yet)!
StanleyB
03-04-2015, 07:47
Because we've already had that courtesy of Moslem terrorists. Again, all down to our so called 'immigration policy'.
Just stating the facts. Not expressing a view (yet)!
The problem with your take on this is that most of these folks are British born. Their aims are however not British (free speech, democracy, regime change through the ballot box). When in Rome, do as the Romans do. But when in Britain and British they have been rewarded with segregation policies that allow them to live and lead a parallel lifestyle that is alien to the traditional British way of life. Unfortunately our politicians have relied on certain groups to provide them with an extra MP in Westminster in return for concessions. Idi Amin was one of the few who had the right idea on how to solve an immigration and cultural integration problem.
Richard
there was nothing emotional about my analysis of immigration. It is a simple fact that the more people there are needing somewhere to live the highere the cost be it renting or buying. Supply and demand. I am sure as an accountant you understand that. Prior to 1997 the population of the UK was in slow decline.
I suspect your opposition to what I said is based on your desire to emigrate to France, and perhaps you are concerened that idiots might brand you 'racist'.
Oldpinkman
03-04-2015, 13:53
Martin
I don't think you're analysis holds water. Hence the feeling it is an emotional diagnosis and solution - not a rational one. Yes I know supply and demand - I read economics under Dudley Jackson at Aston Uni
As discussed, with 1 million empty homes in the country there doesn't appear to be a supply issue. The classic supply curve slopes up from left to right. As prices increase market forces will want to supply more. In addition to empty homes, local authorities have local plans which allocate land. In the overcrowded South East, my local borough (Maidstone)are in the process of finalising their local plan with housing allocations to meet independant projections of demand through to 2030. Those projections take account of current immigration rates. THey are allocating an additional 20,000 houses to be built. All the local authorities in this area are doing likewise. There is no artificial supply side constraint. There is capacity in the building sector (I have clients in building - my son is a blue collar building site recruitment consultant)
So house prices must be attributable to demand. But not due to excess numbers requiring homes due to immigration. If there were too many people needing houses and not enough available houses, then there would be people on the streets. That's not the case - whilst we have homeless on the streets and in shelters, they are not in numbers to support your theory. Indeed, the issue is demand is choked due to lack of available mortgage finance. This is where the true cause lies. And the problem was previous lack of lending controls enabling the market to rise based on people borrowing more than they could afford. Post Northern Rock controls mean there is not the supply of finance now - but the market expecation of price remains.
As I pointed out - house prices are rising dramatically in Australia, and China to name but 2 countries not affected by intra-EU immigration. And only 7 years ago prices in the UK fell by around 40%. Was that due to emigration? In France house prices are falling by about 7% nationally this year, and have fallen about 3%pa nationally for the last 4 years. Yet the rise of the national front under Marine LePen confirms French xenophobia about immigration.
We haven't discussed that demand curve properly. A "normal" demand curve slopes down from left to right. As prices increase, people want to buy (or are able to buy) less. Prices fix where supply meets demand. However, you can get abnormal demand curves where the slope is upward from right to left . At the bottom of the curve you get what I always knew as the "irish exception". When a base commodity (potatoes in 19th century Ireland) fall in price, demand FALLS. This is because Irish peasants on subsistence incomes could only eat potatoes until the price fell, and left them able to substitute cabages and a bit of mutton for potatoes in their diet. So as the price of potatoes fell - so did demand.
The house price issue is the other end of the demand curve - luxury goods. If the price of a Rolls Royce is reduced too far, then there is a perception of loss of quality. A rolex watch or Rolls Royce car will experience increased demand as prices rise. People want them because they are expensive. This is the issue with house prices. Due in part to low interest rate returns on cash deposits, there is a mentality that you must buy property as an investment. That's how you get 1 million empty homes. Their value does not depend on their rental income but expected capital appreciation. House prices go up because people EXPECT them to go up and WANT them to go up. Just listen in your local pub - people feel better off when house prices are rising.
The classic case of this demand distortion was of course Spanish property prices. House prices in Spain rocketed not because of immigration, but because people wanted to buy houses there, because they knew their price would go up. They have crashed for exactly the same reason - a classic bubble bursting. I think UK property price demand is much more attributlable to the investment expectation and not at all to immigration. The proof is likely to be in the pudding within the next few years. Prices are unsustainable and should fall, maybe crash.
Will your analysis of the market cause you to call for more immigration if house prices fall?
That's why your analysis is emotive and not rational
I did mean zero national debt and positive holdings - although I agree that is a goal of perfection to aim for, a compass reading if you like. The likelihood of actually reaching that situation is slim to none I agree unless we discover oil in the Pennines. In reality if we can balance the books in the good times we can afford to borrow a little in the bad times. You will recall that the Thatcher government paid off the loans to the IMF, balanced the books and made a start on paying down the national debt. It's not impossible, with good stewardship, to at least get back to that position.
The EU thing is simple enough. You stop giving them free money, you stop uncontrolled immigration from EU countries, you stop enacting any of their laws which you don't like or which don't suit the UK. Everything else stays the same. Nissan will still be able to build their cars here and sell them to people on continental Europe. Don't forget that Europe exports a lot more to us than we do to them. Imposing trade embargos as some sort of punishment would hurt them a lot, and they are already struggling. The reality is they would have to accept it as fait accompli. They will miss the billions we pump in to keep the whole, sorry enterprise going.
I'm not against Thierry Henri coming here to play football - but current immigration has two pitfalls:
1) There is too much and we do not have the infrastructure to cope, not do we have the money or the space to build it. Wages are driven down, rent and house prices are driven up
2) The quality of the immigrants is for the vast part, poor. We need qualified, experienced medical staff, or engineers or whatever. Fine , let them in. We need unskilled labour, people with mental health issues, peasants from the third world who have no skills, speak little English and are effectively unemployable? No.
I appreciate it is shit where they come from and if I was them I would be here or on my way too, so I don't blame them but the fact is we can't afford to keep them here, we already have enough dependants to feed and house. Should we let everyone in the whole world who wants to, to come here and live? How many people would that be? Two billion, three billion? Where do we stop? There is just no logic to it and more to the point no other country in the world does it so why do we?
can't really fault any of that Macca
Oldpinkman
03-04-2015, 16:27
"I did mean zero national debt and positive holdings -"
can't really fault any of that Macca
I'm sorry. I'm a bit thick. Explain to me who has it - at all, anywhere, and why it is desirable? It flies in the face of all I learned in economics...
Lots to reply to and I am on my phone so it will have to be a brief one.
280000 net immigration last year. An entire city of people every year. As you point out they are not on the streets so where are they living? How can that increased demand not result in higher rents and prices?
Why are we letting in people who will only ever be useless dependants? What is there to be gained by that? I don' t see any positives. Perhaps someone can explain to me?
National debt requires servicing with interest payments. That comes out of the annual revenue. No national debt to service means more money to spend on useful things or lower taxes. Debt is never good and best avoided if possible. I'm fascinated to see what economic gymnastics are required to demonstrate how paying debt interest translates to a positive
Something to do with money makes money makes jobs makes taxes makes money etc
Roll on the SNP/Plaid Cymru Alliance, and booting out more of the chinless wonders from Westminster!!
CELT POWER.... :yesbruv: :yesbruv:
Marco.
Ninanina
03-04-2015, 20:55
Why are we letting in people who will only ever be useless dependants?
I mention that in my signature....;)
walpurgis
03-04-2015, 21:15
High time whatever needs to not be here is removed to wherever it needs to go (at its own expense).
Try living around here and you might realise why I have this view. Creatures dropping their cacks and having a crap in the street or pissing up the walls everywhere, not to mention all the spit on the deck. Prostitutes having sex in the street, blatantly open drug dealing and use, high crime rates, every kind of rubbish of any size just dumped in the road or on the path, driving (if you call it that) uninsured and without licences, etc. All in the name of 'Multicultural Britain'. Wonderful! :steam:
There is plenty of photographic, video and other evidence to back up what I've said, the police being well aware, but they are, as we've come to expect these days, a waste of time.
Move up to North Wales, mate. What you've just described sounds like a foreign country! ;)
Marco.
High time whatever needs to not be here is removed to wherever it needs to go (at its own expense).
Try living around here and you might realise why I have this view. Creatures dropping their cacks and having a crap in the street or pissing up the walls everywhere, not to mention all the spit on the deck. Prostitutes having sex in the street, blatantly open drug dealing and use, high crime rates, every kind of rubbish of any size just dumped in the road or on the path, driving (if you call it that) uninsured and without licences, etc. All in the name of 'Multicultural Britain'. Wonderful! :steam:
There is plenty of photographic, video and other evidence to back up what I've said, the police being well aware, but they are, as we've come to expect these days, a waste of time.
Move up to Scotland mate. Nice and quiet and no crap like that.....
walpurgis
03-04-2015, 21:41
Move up to North Wales, mate. What you've just described sounds like a foreign country! ;)
Marco.
It seems to have become one.
There are other shitholes like this place across the UK. Scotland is not entirely immune I believe Grant.
Indeed, Grant.
The key is...................... MOVE NORTH ;)
London's a fooking cesspit hell-hole.
Marco.
It seems to have become one.
There are other shitholes like this place across the UK. Scotland is not entirely immune I believe Grant.
You get some bad areas but not as bad as that. mostly if you keep out of the big cities it is fairly pleasant. we dont have as many services and money but its a better quality of life in general... weather is not so great mind ...bloody bitter again today...wet too.had to wear my Indiana Jones hat :D
Spectral Morn
03-04-2015, 22:09
I mention that in my signature....;)
I find that quiet offensive actually. I don't think signatures should be used to make political statements or racist ones, especially EP ones.
In Wales, you'd have to go down to the likes of Cardiff or Swansea to experience what Geoff has described. Around here, that stuff just doesn't happen. In general, things are pretty civilised - and I say that even living right next door to a pub! :eek:
Marco.
I find that quiet offensive actually. I don't think signatures should be used to make political statements or racist ones, especially EP ones.
Yeah (not that I agree or disagree with the sentiments contained in the statement). However, this is a hi-fi and music forum, so stuff relating to that (in some way) should be the only thing expressed in signatures - certainly not political statements.
Therefore, Bev, please remove it. Ta :)
Marco.
walpurgis
03-04-2015, 22:19
You get some bad areas but not as bad as that. mostly if you keep out of the big cities it is fairly pleasant. we dont have as many services and money but its a better quality of life in general... weather is not so great mind ...bloody bitter again today...wet too.had to wear my Indiana Jones hat :D
It is my dream, to get away from London (and I will). There's nothing good left here. It's OK for youngsters (if they can even afford to live here) who like the 'bright lights' and night life, but compared to what London was in say, the seventies, it's just a grubby, crime ridden dump!!
I reckon I've said my bit on 'The State of The Nation' (as it were). I won't (unless provoked) post any more on this thread, apart from comments on the election.
Oldpinkman
04-04-2015, 06:48
Something to do with money makes money makes jobs makes taxes makes money etc
Far more brief than I would have been, but essentially right. The goal is economic prosperity not low borrowing. Making the cake bigger, so we can argue about how to share a bigger cake. It's a bit like clients I get who think the goal is to minimise tax. The easiest way to reduce taxes is to make losses. Nobody pays taxes on losses. The goal is not minimising taxes paid. The goal is maximising after tax wealth. It's complicated - but that wasn't a bad one liner Grant. Read Adam Smith.
Oldpinkman
04-04-2015, 06:59
To return to "immigration = house price increases" how simple do I have to make this for you. You used supply and demand as a justification. Increased demand doesn't have to result in increased prices. In the case of housing the other truly obvious response is increased supply. As our population has grown since the war, organically and through immigration, we have built more houses. Increased demand (if you are defining that as physical need, rather than investment want) will only increase prices if supply is unable to respond by increasing sufficiently. As I pointed out in my previous post, there is no evidence that is the case.
If you claimed immigration leads to pressure for unsustainable development, undesirable urbanisation of greenbelt, housing construction beyond the capacity of water supply and other natural resources, increased congestion and flood risk, and additional resources for health and education, I think you would have a case.
But immigration is causing house prices to go up - no case made. Emotional rather than rational.
Oldpinkman
04-04-2015, 07:10
Roll on the SNP/Plaid Cymru Alliance, and booting out more of the chinless wonders from Westminster!!
CELT POWER.... :yesbruv: :yesbruv:
Marco.
I truly hope we allow the English to impose devolution on both nations. I guess we'd have the nuisance of relocating the dvlc and companies house back from the land of the sheep-shaggers but we could afford them the liberty of self government and retain the net wealth we currently generate and return to them. Also of course, we could generate yet more wealth by allowing the party the English vote for to run their own country. Devolution makes such good sense for the English it's maddening that we allowed the Scots to decide the issue, and small wonder the canny sods declined the opportunity.
Oldpinkman
04-04-2015, 07:47
I find that quiet offensive actually. I don't think signatures should be used to make political statements or racist ones, especially EP ones.
+1
I truly hope we allow the English to impose devolution on both nations. I guess we'd have the nuisance of relocating the dvlc and companies house back from the land of the sheep-shaggers but we could afford them the liberty of self government and retain the net wealth we currently generate and return to them. Also of course, we could generate yet more wealth by allowing the party the English vote for to run their own country. Devolution makes such good sense for the English it's maddening that we allowed the Scots to decide the issue, and small wonder the canny sods declined the opportunity.
I'm FOR anything that gives more (long overdue and well-deserved) control to the Scots, Welsh and Irish people, living in the UK, and LESS to the southern Englanders (and the 'elite'), who seek to control and oppress us, as indeed they've done for centuries.
Changes are-a-comin', however, which will mean that we'll have more MPs in Westminster than we've ever had, and thus more say in our future, to build a fairer, more equal Britain! :clap: :clap:
The first thing will be to dissolve the (utterly outdated and pointless) House of Lords, and kick out the dribbling, incontinent old buffoons being paid £300 a day, for doing fuck-all, and give that money instead to people who really need it!!
:exactly:
Marco.
I'm FOR anything that gives more (long overdue and well-deserved) control to the Scots, Welsh and Irish people, living in the UK, and LESS to the southern Englanders (and the 'elite'), who seek to control and oppress us, as they've done for centuries.
Changes are-a-comin', however, which will mean that we'll have more MPs in Westminster than we've ever had, and thus more say in our future, to build a fairer, more equal Britain! :clap: :clap:
The first thing will be to dissolve the (utterly outdated and pointless) House of Lords, and kick out the dribbling, incontinent old buffoons being paid £300 a day, for doing fuck-all, and give that money instead to people who really need it!!
Marco.
Oh no! not that....Is the only job I'm over qualified for :doh:
Lol - yeah you'd be right at home there, sat on yer Shiatsu, resplendent in Tena For Men's finest! :lol:
Marco.
Lol - yeah you'd be right at home there, sat on yer Shiatsu, resplendent in Tena For Men's finest! :lol:
Marco.
Tena,s new flood pants can take upto 2 litres now so you can last all day:eyebrows:
Awesome... Just think then, that during the summer, you can let the contents 'infuse' and nicely marinate into an intensified, 'soup-like' consistency, perfect for adding an unrivalled depth of flavour to yer home-made cock-a-leekie! :D :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
04-04-2015, 10:15
I can't afford Tenas. I use Fivers. :eyebrows:
cock a leekie...classic:clapclapclap::clapclapclap:
Arf.... Thought you'd like that one! :D
Marco.
walpurgis
13-04-2015, 19:09
Is it just me? I'm getting really sick of seeing that nerd Milliband trying and failing to 'talk tough' about the election. Cameron's slimy obseqiousness is bad enough, but Milliband just makes me want to punch his flabby chops. What a pri......... :eek:
I bet he has his wife's knickers on under his suit, too.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
29-04-2015, 08:19
For all the xenophobes looking to vote UKIP, confirmation that life is as simple as you think it is. Who'd want immigrants?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-29/welcome-to-britain-thanks-for-the-hard-work-now-get-lost
Farage is a slimy c*nt, and I suspect a pant-wetter, too.
Marco.
Typical of govt and civil service. Go after the easy targets that are an asset to the country,because they do things in the open and are thus traceable. There is nothing wrong with controlling immigration, but it should be controls that are thought out and are adaptable to individual cases. Alas govt's, etc don't work that way as it would require people to use a commodity they obviously don't possess; intelligence...
Firebottle
29-04-2015, 09:29
That's one of the best comments so far Grant, pity it's true :doh:
For all the xenophobes looking to vote UKIP, confirmation that life is as simple as you think it is. Who'd want immigrants?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-29/welcome-to-britain-thanks-for-the-hard-work-now-get-lost
If you want to convince someone of your point of view talking down to them is a most spectacualrly unsuccesful way of doing it...
It so happens I was in conversation just the other day with some (relatively high-up) Border Agency employees because I like my opinion to be properly informed.
I'll repeat it again because it don't seem to be sinking in:
We don't want unskilled peasants who will spend their entire lives sponging off us.
We do want skilled, educated people to fill work positions that cannot be filled from the indigenous popualtion.
It is not racism, it is not xenophobia, it is plain common sense practicality.
Why is it that some people seem intent on confusing this perfectly sensible position by trying to imply that the only options are to either let everyone in or nobody in?
Oldpinkman
30-04-2015, 12:50
Martin
You are quite right - talking down is counter-productive. My reference to Xenophobia was not specifically directed at you. In the wide world elsewhere there are some spectacular examples.
Still - like they say - "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you"
I note your point about immigrants who are more akin to refugees and abuse our social services. They are a visible, unacceptable element of immigration. Highly visible - I suspect relatively insignificant proportion of the whole. If I look around me, all of Sues school cleaners are Nepalese (we have a Gurkha base close by), the local farms have their produce picked by Poles and other East Europeans, and the Tesco delivery van drivers must be 50% east european, as are the various courrier drivers. If we had soaring unemployment there might be a case for saying that immigrants were stealing english jobs. Sadly, I fear the reality is immigrants are doing the jobs we need done in England (and Scotland - my last visit there every member of staff in hotels and restaurants appeared to be East European). Immigrants are working to help drive our economy, and allowing our naturally vagrant sponging class to do just that.
Howver, the point I really wanted to make, was the difficulty of implementing your "sensible" immigration policies without leaving the EU . The Japanese ladies dilema arose because the desire to limit immigration is thwarted by the need to permit EU free movement of labour, and so such measures as are taken are taken against foreigners from outside the EU
The EU is a tainted institution - and one that it is not hard to find significant criticism for. But before chucking the baby out with the bathwater, it is worth remembering its merits. Not just the economic benefits which the "fat cats" (sic) appreciate (you know - those fat cats who run the businesses and generate all the wealth for the rest of us). Leaving the EU would almost certainly hit the UK economy hard.
That's not the main benefit. For all the fake political denials surrounding the single currency debate about loss of soveriegnty, the EU ab initio was always, fundamentally intended as a political union, in which the members would reduce their national sovereignty. The economic union was a side-show. How shocking!
I am not going to lose my sovereignty - my right to self-determination, my vote which enables me to shape and influence government. Yeah right! Like our vote and our democracy gives us any real control over the UK, and would give us any less control over a European united states, akin to the USA. I am deeply , profoundly grateful that I was born into, and live in a democracy - and cherish the freedoms and priviliges it grants me. But it's a shite way to choose a government or run a country, as the fiasco surrounding a hung parliament is likely to shortly demonstrate.
No Macca - the raison d'etre for the original EEC - the 6 nation club run by its "big 2" France and Germany - was to bring an end to the regular destructive land wars between European nation states. A pattern that existed through history from Roman times, when there has not been a period exceeding 40 years without war in Europe. A pattern which was becoming more devastatingly destructive with advances in weaponry as evidenced by the appalling wars of the last century - WW1 and WW2. A pattern which became even more terrifying as the prospect of nuclear war being the basis of the coming WW3.
You may argue its just a coincidence, and would have happened anyway. But recorded history since Roman times would argue against you. The EEC / EU has so far achieved its primary goal. The avoidance of war between member European states for - count them - 70 (that's SEVENTY) years.
Careful with that baby and bathwater.
Well reasoned argument, Richard. But I don't agree with your conclusion that the EU is responsible for keeping the peace. We did have land war in Europe in former Yugoslavia and we have another right now in Ukraine. Just because the French have not fought the Germans for a while is no reason to start kissing the stinking EU flag.
There is a little organization known as NATO that has had far more to do with it. But besides that I think after the true extent of the Nazi experiment and the Final Solution was revealed the Germans as a people sort of lost their taste for the old Sturm Und Drang. The French have never been that keen on a fight, the British regard war as an expensive inconvenience best avoided which only leaves the Russians to start the trouble and that brings us back to NATO.
Why would leaving the EU 'hit the UK economy hard'? I see this repeated a lot with nothing to back it up. As I said before we re-take control of our borders and we stop giving them the free money. Everything else (i.e the trade agreements) can remain as it is.
I note your point about immigrants who are more akin to refugees and abuse our social services. They are a visible, unacceptable element of immigration. Highly visible - I suspect relatively insignificant proportion of the whole. .
accrding to Migrartionwatch http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/february-2015/stb-msqr-feb-2015.html
•624,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending September 2014, a statistically significant increase from 530,000 in the previous 12 months. There were statistically significant increases for immigration of non-EU citizens (up 49,000 to 292,000)
So even if we do not leave the EU we can still cut immigration by 292,000 a year.
Okay so some of those people will have skills we need. But all 292,000 of them? I think not. Those we need we let in the rest can stay where they are.
Oldpinkman
30-04-2015, 14:47
Just briefly Martin,
Te lack of wars in Europe due to the EU is between member nations. The idea is EU members don't fight EU members. Had Ukraine been an EU member (read a few press articles) Russia may have had higher stakes in getting involved in a war with the EU.
Yes - NATO is important - historically the French have found plenty of enthusiasm for wars (Crecy, Agincourt, Waterloo, Trafalgar).
The argument may be well reasoned, but hardly original. http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm "The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War."
The UK economy would be hit hard because it is heavily dependant on the City, which retains its role as a financial centre due to its substantial expertise and heritage, and place in Europe. The city itself expects the emphasis to shift to Frankfurt if London leaves the EU. Inward investment by major manufacturers like Panasonic and Nissan depends on European markets. Frankly we are already at a competitive disadvantage due to currency risk costs as a non-euro member - but several manufacturers have made it clear there would be no further investment in the UK if it were outside the EU. It is not a question of import quotas or duty - its a question of standardisation of legislation and product standards. Like I say - the people who run the businesses that make all the wealth believe EU membership is important to our economy.
http://www.bnegroup.org/media/press-releases/press-release-captains-of-industry-say-leaving-the-eu-would-damage-british-/
Exactly how does the EU prevent war betwen members? Specifically what mechanism is at play there? Would the EU, had it existed in 1939, prevented Germany from invading Poland? If so how would it have done that?
Business always favours the staus quo because that is what they are set up to exploit. So it is only to be expected that they make warning sounds about plans to amend that status quo.
As I said previously leaving the EU does not mean we abandon the various standardizations that have been set up. We stop giving them free money, we control immigration from EU countries. Otherwise it will be business as usual, There would be no effect on the manufacturing or financial services sector unless the remaining member countries decided to impose a trade embargo/tariffs. And that would never happen.
Biggest elephant in the room for me is why isn't Labour coming down like a ton of bricks on the governments last 5 years worth of broken promises and flat out U-Turns?
Past performance is more relevant than future promises...
https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/camerons-pre-election-contract-a-catalogue-of-lies/
* No cuts to front-line services
* We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT
* Cameron on child benefit: "I wouldn't means-test it
* No more top-down reorganisations of the NHS
* Osborne on bank bonuses: "totally unacceptable" (Yet goes to Court to challenge rules to cap them???)
Publish, broadcast and shout it everywhere. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Vote winner right there.
Politics is broken.
Gordon Steadman
06-05-2015, 08:13
We are registered for postal voting in the constituency where we last lived in the UK.
The election is, as I understand it, due to take place tomorrow. So.... allowing for the usual efficiency of the postal system, when would you deem it sensible to send the voting papers? Maybe a few days sooner than the 30th April?
My pack arrived this morning and I have to complete it and return it by post so that my vote can be counted tomorrow. Ronnie's hasn't yet arrived at all.
It's not just politics that are broken, it's the human brain.
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 10:51
This is quite interesting and rather funny. Is it accurate? Could be.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587963/Ed-Miliband-WEIRD-say-40-voters-pressure-mounts-Labour-leader-poll-lead-Tories-slumped-one-point.html
walpurgis
06-05-2015, 16:49
Well. Will we be getting a hung Parliament? Likely I think. I'm rather more in favour of a hanged Parliament. I'd string the lot of them up!! :eek:
Yep. revolution...hang 'em all!!
This is quite interesting and rather funny. Is it accurate? Could be.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587963/Ed-Miliband-WEIRD-say-40-voters-pressure-mounts-Labour-leader-poll-lead-Tories-slumped-one-point.html
What a stupid article! But then it is the Daily Mail. :doh:
Audio Advent
06-05-2015, 22:49
We are registered for postal voting in the constituency where we last lived in the UK.
The election is, as I understand it, due to take place tomorrow. So.... allowing for the usual efficiency of the postal system, when would you deem it sensible to send the voting papers? Maybe a few days sooner than the 30th April?
My pack arrived this morning and I have to complete it and return it by post so that my vote can be counted tomorrow. Ronnie's hasn't yet arrived at all.
It's not just politics that are broken, it's the human brain.
Fook me! That's rediculous!
Audio Advent
06-05-2015, 22:53
Who's going to stay up to watch the results come in?
It's a pretty safe seat for Labour where I am so I feel confident my vote isn't needed to keep Tories out - which frees me up to vote in line with my personal ideologies and play the long game i.e vote Green.
Oldpinkman
07-05-2015, 08:47
I was just off to vote and reflecting on my parents voting habits (Mum - they could pre-stamp the voting slip with conservative, even if the candidate was a goat. Dad - a thinker and chooser)
You could be forgiven for thinking my voting patterns were as predictable as my Mums. But actually, I've just realised, I have voted for the winning party every single time since I was 18. (Yes I was responsible for voting in Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair - protest over EU issues) I have a feeling that particular run is about to end...
:cool:
Plaid Cymru for both of us - done and dusted. Let's hope that Cameron gets his jotters tomorrow... :hifive: :hifive:
Taxi to the job centre, for chinless-wonder boy! :wave: :wave:
Marco.
walpurgis
07-05-2015, 09:14
If Milliband gets in (coalition or otherwise) which is quite possible. He'll just about have time to set his 'Government' (:rolleyes:) up so he can welcome all the thousands of North African refugee 'boat people' that will make their way here from Italy in droves. Make no mistake, this is where they'll be heading.
If instead of Italy being across the Med, it was say China or Russia, it would not be happening would it?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/11205123_10152767120565718_6309573530687012585_n.j pg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/davhar/media/11205123_10152767120565718_6309573530687012585_n.j pg.html)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/nic.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/davhar/media/nic.jpg.html)
Gordon Steadman
07-05-2015, 09:19
Well.....Ronnie's voting papers arrived here in France this morning so we will be taking a close interest in the results of our ex political friends in Esher:doh:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/11205123_10152767120565718_6309573530687012585_n.j pg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/davhar/media/11205123_10152767120565718_6309573530687012585_n.j pg.html)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/nic.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/davhar/media/nic.jpg.html)
:lolsign: :yesbruv:
Marco.
walpurgis
07-05-2015, 09:34
Who's going to stay up to watch the results come in?
Not me. It's a toss up between two bunches of tossers! :brickwall:
there is only 2 options here. The usual Labour or 2nd party SNP. no one else will get much of a chance. think snp will run it close
Not me. It's a toss up between two bunches of tossers! :brickwall:
So why not just stay in instead and have a wank? :D
Marco.
When you can't afford Westminster caviar...try Sturgeon. :)
Love it! :thumbsup:
When you're fed up with the rest, try the best.....
Marco.
I'm just going to go out and vote now. Then it's down the pub for a lunchtime drink with a former collegue of mine. :cool:
So which self-serving, corrupt and egotistical tosser are you voting for? ;)
I'm just about to munch on some Parma ham (with crusty bread) and slices of fresh water melon, and wash it down with a rather nice glass (or two) of Barolo :cheers:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-05-2015, 11:14
You know, I've been really surprised. Recently chatting I have mentioned my suggestion that the Scottish Independence vote was a mistake, and instead the English should have been given the chance to vote on kicking the Scots out, and (with the exception of my Scottish best friend) everyone to a man has enthusiastically supported it. Whether it is because the prospect of Jimmy Cranky as head of the SNP having ANY say at Westminster or not has woken everyone up or not, there seems to be unanimous support in England for Scottish Independance. If the SNP get returned in most seats in Scotland, surely it has to be on the cards that we can get shot of them. Here's hoping.
The answer will be to let the English vote on the matter, and not leave it to the Scots. A bit like immigration, I wonder if it is one of these situations where mainstream politicians were unaware of grass roots feelings. Or whether my (quite large) sample of English voters is biased and unrepresentative of the true national view.
But I am expecting my 100% record of voting in the government to take a bashing tomorrow :(
Recently chatting I have mentioned my suggestion that the Scottish Independence vote was a mistake, and instead the English should have been given the chance to vote on kicking the Scots out, and (with the exception of my Scottish best friend) everyone to a man has enthusiastically supported it.
Yes of course, that's why Cameron, et al, employed every lie and scaremongering tactic in the book (not to mention orchestrated the disgraceful vote rigging that took place), to ensure that Scottish independence didn't happen, because they wanted to kick the Scots out... I applaud that level of 'lateral thinking'. Sheer genius!! :lol:
The same scaremongering tactics and lies that have also been used in this election campaign to paint the SNP as dangerous, untrustworthy 'self-centred jingoists', when the biggest untrustworthy, self-centred and corrupt bastards of all, are those currently in power - but like you say, thankfully not for much longer.... ;)
Marco.
Anthony K
07-05-2015, 11:54
Amazing - The voting hall is two minutes walk for me , but many people drive in from around the area and park on my road , well can you f**king believe it , they have put out extra traffic wardens , hovering up and down the road like bluebottles over cow shit.
The thought of going to vote makes me nauseous.
You should've done a postal one then, dude...
Btw, Richard, you should read this discussion on pfm, noting in particular the sentiments Tony L has expressed in his 'PS' (to Blzebub), which align entirely with mine, in reference to NS and the SNP:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2593473&postcount=18
I suspect you are far too wealthy and out of touch to ever understand what she's offering/quite why she is so popular, but it's now got very little to do with Scottish independence! I suspect she'd do great if she stood in the north of England too, as we are sick of exactly the same Westminster elite crap. I wish her the best of luck and will welcome a new and more progressive voice in the HoC.
Hear, hear! :clap:
Incidentally, I have nothing whatsoever against wealth (it is not a bad word).
We're not exactly short of a few bob ourselves (all hard-worked for and morally earned, I would hasten to add). By rights, therefore, we should be voting Tory, to line our pockets further, as we 'fit' their target demographic [in a number of ways]. However, we wouldn't ever soil ourselves in that way, by association.
What I *am* against most strongly, however, is elitism and GREED - and that disgusting disease is rife in the Tory mindset, and always has been!
Thank goodness, it's about to be eradicated, when tomorrow the ordinary people of Britain will emerge victorious.
Marco.
I suspect you are far too wealthy and out of touch to ever understand what she's offering/quite why she is so popular,
I suspect that if you look up 'patronising' in the dictionary it includes this quote as an example.
Lol... You need to be aware of the 'history' between those two, and in particular how much of a snobbish and pretentious arse Blzebub is!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-05-2015, 13:07
I suspect you are far too wealthy and out of touch to ever understand what she's offering/quite why she is so popular,
I suspect that if you look up 'patronising' in the dictionary it includes this quote as an example.
Very probable.
It's ironic though. I had a similar reflection to Marco's. I should vote labour really on 90% of policy and principle. I inherited nothing, that's zero pounds zero pence to date, went to state schools and university, studied 4 years on a training contract being paid pocket money to qualify, have been fleeced by a divorce, and earn comfortably less than 6 figures. We do OK - but very much "ordinary" income self-made.
But, I blame it on a lecture hall in Aston all those years ago, when "Cuddly Duddly" Jackson introduced me to the "Red Book" and "Blue Book" of economic statistics, and a dodgy Russian guy called Kondratieff. Like Fraser from Dad's Army "I fear we're doomed, doomed I say". This election - this stage in the worlds long term economic cycle, comes down to living within your means. We are "that close" to it all going tits-up Greek style. Of course - no need to believe that - The "Greenspan put" and then "Uncle Ben Bernanke" and their quantative easing (backed up by our Merv the Swerve at the Bank of England) and now even Super Mario in Europe - all of those have enabled the financial collapse which occured in 2009, the huge speculative losses of the greedy bankers which were effectively bailed out by us poor sap taxpayers - that fabulous Quantative Easing solution has made it all go away.
I don't believe that. I think it was just putting more sticking plasters on a giant boil. We should have had the guts to lance it and let the fat bankers face ruin. Instead - the boil is now bigger and more rancid, and when it finally explodes its going to make a stinking mess.
It comes down to money. As a country we are spending far more than we can afford. Put it simply - say we earn £30000pa - and can never earn more. We have been spending up to £60,000 pa , but at least £45000pa for at least 20 years. To date, just about, we have got away with it by doing a "self cert" remortgage every year - so the interest rates (and its an interest only mortgage) are not too bad. But, that mortgage is now too big - 1.7 trillion pounds. Any day, we may find that the Global FSA has out-lawed self-cert mortgages (like here in the real UK mortgage market) and as a country we have to borrow on credit cards. The moment we have to do that - we will be cap in hand to an IMF who will treat us to the Greek medicine. We're not in the Euro (and anyway, we are so much bigger than Greece I'm not sure the EU could prop us up if it wanted to)
We HAVE to stop spending more than we get in taxes. We have to stop saying we'll do it tomorrow. There are only so many tomorrows before someone calls our bluff.
No - it's not that I am rich and priviliged, or don't like old people or hospitals. Its a concern that we have got away with blagging it for a long time, and if someone calls our bluff we are totally screwed. Labour and the Celts will just borrow more and hope.
And we will be left picking up the tab.
What does picking up the tab mean Marco? When you move to Italy and take your savings with you, if they are worth 300000 euro today, they might be worth 30000 euro when you go.
High stakes. And our children will mostly be paying them.
So - based not on promises bullshit and fudged answers, but on track record, which party MIGHT increase our borrowings the least? Vote for them!
. I think it was just putting more sticking plasters on a giant boil. We should have had the guts to lance it and let the fat bankers face ruin. Instead - the boil is now bigger and more rancid, and when it finally explodes its going to make a stinking mess.
!
Yes exactly. They could have used the whole thing as an excuse/reason to start again with a new Bretton Woods agreement and a global division between domestic and casino banking but instead they opted to kick the can down the road. And the road is finite in length.
What does picking up the tab mean Marco? When you move to Italy and take your savings with you, if they are worth 300000 euro today, they might be worth 30000 euro when you go.
High stakes. And our children will mostly be paying them.
So - based not on promises bullshit and fudged answers, but on track record, which party MIGHT increase our borrowings the least? Vote for them!
Jeez, those comments say it all - and that 'all' is just how badly you're missing the point...
I'm not selfish or greedy, so I don't CARE how much or how little my assets or savings will be worth whenever, or if, we decide to move abroad in a few years. The fact is that, whatever happens, we'll have more than enough to live a happy and contented life, whether in a monetary sense, that's for richer or poorer.
Remove your accountant's blinkers for a nanosecond, and acknowledge that life isn't all about MONEY!! :doh:
There are FAR MORE important things that bring one contentment and happiness. We're lucky, however, that we're sorted in the former respect (after having worked our butts off and made some clever/lucky (delete as appropriate) past and current investments, and so the level of 'sortedness' we get to enjoy later in life, matters not a jot. Having wealth and an abundance of material possessions is not the bee all and end all.
*That* is the point.
Of far more interest to me is seeing some of my friends (and others like them), who are less privileged then I am, get to enjoy some sort of fulfilled existence, and a quality of life that they deserve, free from the shackles of capitalist oppression and the 'greed for gold', look after No1 mentality, that Tory governments in particular have always promoted and stood for. Thankfully, for the time being anyway, that's coming to an end.
Quite simply, it's time that the ordinary man got to enjoy some sunshine in his life, and saw an end to austerity!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-05-2015, 13:32
Of far more interest to me is seeing some of my friends (and others like them), who are less privileged then I am, get to enjoy some sort of fulfilled existence, and a quality of life that they deserve, free from the shackles of capitalist oppression and the 'greed for gold', look after No1 mentality, that Tory governments have always promoted and stood for.
Marco.
You've been asked this before Marco. Give me an example of what your friends are missing, that they will get when the "Fat Cats" are overthrown. One example.
Well, slap my butt-cheeks with the back-end of a frozen Bounty bar, for having dared not to answer something that I feel is rather personal! ;)
I'll indulge you this much by writing one word: 'Atos' - and leave you to ponder on it... I will say no more. However, I suspect that Anthony (K), for example, could also help you out with that question.
Marco.
.
Quite simply, it's time that the ordinary man got to enjoy some sunshine in his life, and saw an end to austerity!
Marco.
What austerity?
Total government spend for 2008/2009, the last full year of the 'Brown Terror' was £654.4 Billion
Total spend in 2013/14 (well into the 'age of austerity') was £722.9 Billion
Jeez, those comments say it all - and that 'all' is just how badly you're missing the point...
I'm not selfish or greedy, so I don't CARE how much or how little my assets or savings will be worth whenever, or if, we decide to move abroad in a few years. The fact is that, whatever happens, we'll have more than enough to live a happy and contented life, whether in a monetary sense, that's for richer or poorer.
Remove your accountant's blinkers for a nanosecond and acknowledge that life isn't all about MONEY!! :doh:
There are FAR MORE important things that bring one contentment and happiness. We're lucky, we're sorted in that respect (after having worked our butts off and made some clever/lucky (delete as appropriate) past and current investments, and so the level of 'sortedness' we get to enjoy later in life, matters not a jot.
*That* is the point.
Of far more interest to me is seeing some of my friends (and others like them), who are less privileged then I am, get to enjoy some sort of fulfilled existence, and a quality of life that they deserve, free from the shackles of capitalist oppression and the 'greed for gold', look after No1 mentality, that Tory governments in particular have always promoted and stood for. Thankfully, for the time being anyway, that's coming to an end.
Quite simply, it's time that the ordinary man got to enjoy some sunshine in his life, and saw an end to austerity!
Marco.
+10000000000:)
The clock is ticking for the NHS... 7 hours to save it.
What austerity?
Look out the window, or at the world outside of your immediate existence, and what you mistakenly consider as 'reality'. However, I'm not going to dwell on this, because as you know, we fundamentally disagree on these matters :)
Marco.
So which self-serving, corrupt and egotistical tosser are you voting for? ;)
I'm just about to munch on some Parma ham (with crusty bread) and slices of fresh water melon, and wash it down with a rather nice glass (or two) of Barolo :cheers:
Marco.
Well it won't be the Tories for a start.
A glass or two of Barolo? Looks like little will get done this afternoon! :D Well done! :cheers:
Not Tory?? Quelle surprise!! :eek: ;)
Yes, I spied the Barolo on the wine rack, looking rather dusty and forlorn, so decided to 'rescue it', as it were... :eyebrows:
S'ok, I've saved some for Del, which she'll enjoy, nicely aerated and served at room temperature, when she gets back from work. It's a hard life!!
Marco.
free from the shackles of capitalist oppression
The clock is ticking for the NHS... 7 hours to save it.
This is all a wind-up, isn't it lads?
Not Tory?? Now *there* is a surprise!! :eek: ;)
Marco.
Are you being sarcastic Marco? I have never, ever voted Tory in my life and never will! (Bunch of self-serving, self-satisfied Cretins!)
I have voted as has the boy..... 2 votes against capitalism:eyebrows: can do no more
I have never, ever voted Tory in my life and never will! (Bunch of self-serving, self-satisfied Cretins!)
Roger on that. I'll admit to having 'pegged' you wrongly, though. Apologies! :)
Marco.
What austerity?
Total government spend for 2008/2009, the last full year of the 'Brown Terror' was £654.4 Billion
Total spend in 2013/14 (well into the 'age of austerity') was £722.9 Billion
Yeah, but what were they spending it on Martin? :rolleyes:
What austerity...Seriously?
I'm assuming you enjoy a good argument (nowt wrong with that) but to be frank, what your saying is fucking mental.
Austerity's stated aim (its an official Government strategy) was to reduce the deficit to give confidence to the markets and have growth come to the economy.
Little growth has came about and in fact public debt has risen!
Rising cost of living, cuts to social security and public services (to name but a few) are in danger of decimating society imo.
Inequality has risen horrifically, Industry and Social housing is not being invested in (In fact the game is very much rigged towards the Right to Buy ponzi schemes, very much benefiting the Landlords.)
Its a bloody disgrace that millions of people nowadays in a country like outs have to rely on Food banks. :steam:
And you ask..what austerity?
There has to be a balance struck between shared responsibility towards society and that of personal liberty, the freedom to take as much as you want from the system.
Sometimes...people just dont care about others and only themselves and those immediately around them, I'm alright Jack.
The system is broken and needs to be changed.
I have voted as has the boy..... 2 votes against capitalism:eyebrows: can do no more
Could always chain yourself to a railing somewhere Grant? :)
I'm assuming you enjoy a good argument (nowt wrong with that) but to be frank, what your saying is fucking mental.
Indeed. That was how I'd summed up the situation, particularly in relation to the former (arguing for argument's sake), as the level of Martin's delusion borders on the comical.
As for the rest, dude, we're on the same page ;)
Marco.
Yeah, but what were they spending it on Martin? :rolleyes:
What austerity...Seriously?
I'm assuming you enjoy a good argument (nowt wrong with that) but to be frank, what your saying is fucking mental.
Austerity's stated aim (its an official Government strategy) was to reduce the deficit to give confidence to the markets and have growth come to the economy.
Little growth has came about and in fact public debt has risen!
Rising cost of living, cuts to social security and public services (to name but a few) are in danger of decimating society imo.
Inequality has risen horrifically, Industry and Social housing is not being invested in (In fact the game is very much rigged towards the Right to Buy ponzi schemes, very much benefiting the Landlords.)
Its a bloody disgrace that millions of people nowadays in a country like outs have to rely on Food banks. :steam:
And you ask..what austerity?
There has to be a balance struck between shared responsibility towards society and that of personal liberty, the freedom to take as much as you want from the system.
Sometimes...people just dont care about others and only themselves and those immediately around them, I'm alright Jack.
The system is broken and needs to be changed.
+1
What's very interesting in this debate is that those who are genuinely well off, are anti-Tory, and those who aren't, aren't (excluding that is those who aren't living in cloud-cuckoo land). Not sure what that shows, but it's probably quite significant....... :hmm:
Marco.
The Barbarian
07-05-2015, 14:53
i refused to vote. jobs a good un..
Did you stay in and have a wank instead? It's arguably a far better use of your right hand! :D
Marco.
Roger on that. I'll admit to having 'pegged' you wrongly, though. Apologies! :)
Marco.
No worries - until this thread and your postings (or should that be diatribe?), I had you wrongly 'pegged' as well. :lol:
Impressions can sometimes be deceiving, old chap! :eyebrows:
Marco.
i refused to vote. jobs a good un..
If you don't vote, you can't then complain about the government that gets elected. If you think they're all a bunch of tossers, then spoil your paper: at least your 'protest' gets recorded.
The Barbarian
07-05-2015, 15:05
I don't moan i have no right to... At the end of the day they are all piss in the same pot. Who gets in gets in.
Yeah, but what were they spending it on Martin? :rolleyes:
What austerity...Seriously?
I'm assuming you enjoy a good argument (nowt wrong with that) but to be frank, what your saying is fucking mental.
Austerity's stated aim (its an official Government strategy) was to reduce the deficit to give confidence to the markets and have growth come to the economy.
Little growth has came about and in fact public debt has risen!
Rising cost of living, cuts to social security and public services (to name but a few) are in danger of decimating society imo.
Inequality has risen horrifically, Industry and Social housing is not being invested in (In fact the game is very much rigged towards the Right to Buy ponzi schemes, very much benefiting the Landlords.)
Its a bloody disgrace that millions of people nowadays in a country like outs have to rely on Food banks. :steam:
And you ask..what austerity?
There has to be a balance struck between shared responsibility towards society and that of personal liberty, the freedom to take as much as you want from the system.
Sometimes...people just dont care about others and only themselves and those immediately around them, I'm alright Jack.
The system is broken and needs to be changed.
Gaz you are right I do enjoy a good argument and I do sometimes play devil's advocate. But I can't be arsed to discuss with people whose best effort is 'evil tories' or 'the shackles of capitalism'. Your response at least contains some intelligent counter-arguments to what I was saying and for that I thank you.
The reason I don't bother, in the way you imply, is because there is no point. It's like banging one's head against a brick wall :brickwall:
Endless circular arguments, which are ultimately destined to go nowhere useful, are simply for those with more time on their hands than imagination. I'm merely pre-empting the futility of it.
Far better to conserve one's energy and continue the debate in person, when I can very clearly demonstrate to you, in no uncertain (but friendly) terms, what a wee daftee you are!! :ner: ;)
Marco.
Gaz you are right I do enjoy a good argument and I do sometimes play devil's advocate. But I can't be arsed to discuss with people whose best effort is 'evil tories' or 'the shackles of capitalism'. Your response at least contains some intelligent counter-arguments to what I was saying and for that I thank you.
:thumbsup:
walpurgis
07-05-2015, 15:31
So. The run up (or is it run down?) to the election results is on. What will become of David Macaroon, Ed Moribund, and 'clapped out' Cloggy? I don't personally give a monkey's. Whoever gets in, it'll just be a repeat of the abandoned election promises, lies and penny pinching. Just wait and see.
yeah we know that but part of the fun is in pretending that it matters.
The Barbarian
07-05-2015, 16:01
Im with Geoff who cares. :D
Do you really really think any of these guys running are interested in the welfare of any of us lot! :nono:
It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. I thought it an interesting quote from memory as I put my cross in the box with the attached "Pencil" :eyebrows:
orbscure
07-05-2015, 16:09
So. The run up (or is it run down?) to the election results is on. What will become of David Macaroon, Ed Moribund, and 'clapped out' Cloggy? I don't personally give a monkey's. Whoever gets in, it'll just be a repeat of the abandoned election promises, lies and penny pinching. Just wait and see.
+1 Spot on Geoff... and all threads like this do is pollute the places where I come to get away from nonsense like this... thank god its every 4 or so years (I bloody well hope so!!!) ;)
Well actually it's every five years now.
orbscure
07-05-2015, 16:14
Cheers Barry... edited my previous post for clarification and off to other parts of this and other forums which float my boat :)
I thought it an interesting quote from memory as I put my cross in the box with the attached "Pencil" :eyebrows:
After the Referendum debacle I used my own pen to mark my X today.
Seriously. :)
Lol... Did you hear any fire alarms? ;)
Marco.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/5fZwwZ.jpg
Marco.
walpurgis
07-05-2015, 18:34
:thumbsup:
It's the last part after "faded entertainers" that really nails it!
Marco.
S'churely s'chom misch'take....
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/28/article-2180095-144023C8000005DC-858_964x637.jpg
http://tankthetories.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Bullingdon-hunt.jpg
https://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cameroneton2_468x420.jpg?w=700
:)
Me and her just voted...
Labour here... I'll stand naked in Fenwick's window (Newcastle Dept Store) before I'd ever vote Tory. They pathologically hate the North East and that's why.
S'churely s'chom misch'take....
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/28/article-2180095-144023C8000005DC-858_964x637.jpg
http://tankthetories.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Bullingdon-hunt.jpg
https://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cameroneton2_468x420.jpg?w=700
:)
Never get tired of seeing them pics. Did you know the rotten shits bought the copyrights to prevent them from being published but they went viral after that.
They pathologically hate the North East and that's why.
...and in reality, anywhere north of Watford Junction. Northerners unite against blatant and unjust southern UK favouritism and bias. Yee-hah!! :yesbruv:
Marco.
Never get tired of seeing them pics. Did you know the rotten shits bought the copyrights to prevent them from being published but they went viral after that.
Yup, bunch of back covering shits.
Any group that think it's ok to cover their tracks by attempting to delete their 2010 pre-election promises from the web (including Mr Schapps, sorry....Mr Green) editing Wikepedia entries of their perceived opponents for the worst, would never surprise me how low they would go.
This Conservative Government has shown themselves very clearly, and given Thatcher a pass into Heaven.
(Well at least I'm not the worst...says She)
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 05:39
Foo. :)
The nation is not a hi-fi forum. :yesbruv:
Edit: I should note, to my confessed surprise, I appear to have retained my 100% record for voting in the government. "Oldpinkman - feeling the pulse of the nation - in touch with the hopes and needs of the ordinary person - a national barometer" :D
A Tory 'win' was always on the cards. It was only the majority that was in doubt. In that respect, it looks like they'll have a small (but significant) majority, enabling them to form a government.
The important news for me (as in reality I don't really have a dog in this race, as we're pretty much self-sufficient, and so largely unaffected by governmental policies), is the RISE OF THE SNP and the power of nationalism! Well done to Nicola, for what is a quite incredible result!! :clap: :yay:
As such, SNP are now the third largest party in the UK - a monumental achievement, which would've been totally unprecedented only a few years ago, and which very importantly will mean a strong SNP presence in Westminster, to keep chinless-wonder boy in check, and the VOICE OF SCOTLAND heard LOUD AND CLEAR! :exactly:
SNP are only going to get bigger and stronger in future, and thus more influential, driving towards the ultimate goal of independence for Scotland, so that's something that the 'southern set' in England are going to have to get used to. A very loud and clear message has been sent out, and it is this:
THE VOICE OF SCOTLAND is getting heard louder and louder, as each year passes, and that trend will continue until it results in INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND and the Scottish people ridding themselves of unjust Westminster rule, so wake up and smell the coffee, Tory boys, and inhale the scent of the future!!
:yesbruv: :hifive:
Marco.
8' stone tablet on EBay, collection only.
Just at the exit polls stage so not final, but feck me didn't expect to wake up to that this morning. :scratch:
As you say Marco, big swing to SNP in Scotland from Labour show how the people feel.
Wee Nicola has her mandate for Independance now...watch this space.
For the rest of the folk, gawd help them.
I'm reminded of something I read (and I'm paraphrasing...)
First they came for the disabled and unemployed
And I did not speak out as I wasn't disabled -
Then they came for the low paid, the zero hour contractors
And I did not speak out as I wasn't low paid -
Then they came for middle income and working benefits
And I did not speak out as I wasn't Middle income
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak for me.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 07:19
Marco, with all due respect, all the voice of Scotland did was to emasculate Labour without the bother of removing Scotland from the Union, and to enable the SNP to become a huge minority party with about as many seats, and as much influence as the Liberal Democrats during Margaret Thatchers first or second term.
It was NOT always clear the government would be Conservative. Read your own posts! Opinion polls are all tearing their hair out about how they could have got it SO wrong. The only reliable forecast in the Universe was me, and I didn't believe me!
The SNP will be an utter irrelevance in this government. Maybe, the extent of their vote will open the opportunity to get shot of Scotland, but you can't keep having a referendum every 5 minutes over every issue that comes up. And it would seem the Scots were less enthusiastic about actually being independent rather than relying on "take from the South" devolution.
The interesting poll, and the real worry with a Conservative government, will be EU membership. I can only hope my forecasting record holds. I will be voting to stay in the EU. :D
Edit: - oh no. My mistake. You can't look at your posts waving goodbye to the chinless David Cameron. Someone has deleted it :doh:
This guys pretty accurate too Richard...
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq61/gazjamster/023a3d80087c4dc12d6b24f118f59f0a.jpg
Millibands biggest mistake was to ignore Nicola Sturgeon's call to work with the SNP to keep the Conservatives out of Westminster.
Didn't want to piss of the English vote I guess and to be seen as "siding with the uppity Jocks".
That's what cost him the Election imo.
That or some behind the scenes shenanigans, which frankly wouldn't surprise me. Really.
I'm dissapointed that UKIP didn't do better but not really surprised. I'm relieved that a Labour government is not going to happen.
Incredibly good result for the SNP maybe we can have another go at cutting the Jocks loose entirely :) I notice one of their new MPs is a 20 year old student. That has to be a new record. Wasn't the previous youngest ever MP Jeffery Archer?
I'm dissapointed that UKIP didn't do better but not really surprised. I'm relieved that a Labour government is not going to happen.
Incredibly good result for the SNP maybe we can have another go at cutting the Jocks loose entirely :) I notice one of their new MPs is a 20 year old student. That has to be a new record. Wasn't the previous youngest ever MP Jeffery Archer?
Yes please! :)
well when we have the referendum on the EU we can vote for Scottish independance at the same time. If the whole country gets to vote on it instead of just Scotland it would fly through.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 07:52
This guys pretty accurate too Richard...
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq61/gazjamster/023a3d80087c4dc12d6b24f118f59f0a.jpg
OMG - please tell me he's voting to stay in the EU :youtheman:
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 07:56
well when we have the referendum on the EU we can vote for Scottish independance at the same time. If the whole country gets to vote on it instead of just Scotland it would fly through.
I think there is little doubt England would vote for Independence from the Scots. It's a pity the Scots were too canny to go when we offered them the chance. We had the wrong nation voting. But seriously, you can't keep calling a poll every 5 minutes. "should we have a £2000 pa employers allowance" - lets get everyone to vote on it. It sounds very fair, but its no way to run anything. Flawed though democracy may be, you vote in a government and expect them to get on and govern - not keep running X factor for every decision :doh:
Richard, granted that the SNP's huge success in this election is one of the reasons the Tories look like they're going to win a significant majority, but that's not what interests me the most. What interests me MUCH MORE is the growth of the SNP, and thus its political influence over this sham of a union.
After this election there will be more SNP MPs represented in Westminster than ever in the history of politics, and that's most definitely something to be celebrated - and trust me, that *will* have a major influence on what the future holds for Britain.
The north/south divide is bigger than ever, and getting bigger all the time - and as long as that trend continues, and the strength of feeling exists in the north of the country (not just in Scotland - examine the feelings of all the northerners who've posted on this thread towards Westminster elitist rule, and I can assure you those sentiments are what the majority think in that part of the country), that we want to divorce ourselves from unjust Westminster rule, the more that's likely to become a reality, with the Scots gaining their rightful and deserved independence.
This utter sham of a 'union' of ours is on borrowed time, and so there will be some BIG changes coming in that respect, resulting in the break up of that union, to the betterment of democracy and the future of ordinary people. Mark my words! ;)
It was NOT always clear the government would be Conservative. Read your own posts!
Most of that was done simply to wind you up! Lol.... :D
I said way back (I think in the other Green Party Election thread), that a Tory 'win' was on the cards, but what has surprised me is that there isn't going to be a coalition, and that the Tories are going to have a workable majority, yes largely thanks to the SNP. However, I view that as a good thing, in terms of the 'long game', and the more important bigger picture.
As I've said, I don't really have a dog in this race. All I care truly about is the nationalist parties (particularly SNP), gaining political influence and getting stronger all the time, which is undoubtedly the case, so in that respect there are big reasons for celebration this morning :champagne:
Look out, southern softies, Nicola's comin' tae get ye.............................
Marco.
Millibands biggest mistake was to ignore Nicola Sturgeon's call to work with the SNP to keep the Conservatives out of Westminster.
Didn't want to piss of the English vote I guess and to be seen as "siding with the uppity Jocks".
That's what cost him the Election imo.
+1
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 08:02
Marco - the SNP influence for the duration of this government will be 3/5ths of 5/8ths of fuck all. The windbag sturgeon will enjoy the sound of her own voice, time after time, and there will be a vote, and 320 conservatives will vote "aye" and the windbag will be left for caviar. Get real! ;)
Maybe - just maybe, towards the end of this government, we'll have one more go at getting rid of the Scots. But hopefully devo max will go the whole hog, and remove Scottish MP's right to vote at westminster on matters in which the Scottish Assembly have a right to vote in Scotland. That would be a good start.
Not that any Scottish MP's vote will amount to a row of beans for the next 5 years, as aforementioned. "All wind and piss" as my Dad would say. :D
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 08:04
+1
Marco.
Nonsense. If every SNP seat were labour, they still wouldn't be able to form a government. Sturgeon ruined Millibands chance of being the largest party, by turning Scotland orange, and ensured any waverers in England voted Blue rather than have little Jimmy Cranky holding the balance of power :cool:
Nonsense. If every SNP seat were labour, they still wouldn't be able to form a government. Sturgeon ruined Millibands chance of being the largest party, by turning Scotland orange, and ensured any waverers in England voted Blue rather than have little Jimmy Cranky holding the balance of power :cool:
Was she was playing the Long Game by doing this...looking at building her mandate for Independance?
If so...nicely played.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 08:16
Was she was playing the Long Game by doing this...looking at building her mandate for Independance?
If so...nicely played.
Why does she need a long game? The Scots had a vote - they didn't want to go. What they want, and voted for, was a priviliged nation within a nation. What they will hopefully get is proper devolution, where they don't get 2 bites of the cherry - one vote in their own assembly for what happens in Scotland only, and then another vote in the English assembly for what happens in England. Devo max should put a stop to that. As would Independance of course - which is why the Scots didn't vote for it. It would have been like turkeys voting for Christmas.
I don't believe any of this Machiavellian stuff. Sturgeon was looking for popular nationalism in the wrong election. The result is a rock-solid Conservative majority
The important result is the euro exchange rate which dipped to E1.34 at one point, and must surely sail past E1.40 now. Better than anything I dared to hope for :D
Was she was playing the Long Game by doing this...looking at building her mandate for Independance?
If so...nicely played.
That's precisely it (slowly, slowly catchy monkey)... And the effects of that will be coming home to roost, sooner rather than later, regardless of what Richard thinks ;)
Marco.
Why does she need a long game? The Scots had a vote - they didn't want to go.
Those votes were rigged, end of, so null and void. The *real* feelings of the Scottish people were reflected by the SNP's huge win last night in Scotland, so that very clear message being sent out is what you should be concentrating on instead....
Marco.
Why does she need a long game? The Scots had a vote - they didn't want to go. What they want, and voted for, was a priviliged nation within a nation. What they will hopefully get is proper devolution, where they don't get 2 bites of the cherry - one vote in their own assembly for what happens in Scotland only, and then another vote in the English assembly for what happens in England. Devo max should put a stop to that. As would Independance of course - which is why the Scots didn't vote for it. It would have been like turkeys voting for Christmas.
I don't believe any of this Machiavellian stuff. Sturgeon was looking for popular nationalism in the wrong election. The result is a rock-solid Conservative majority
The important result is the euro exchange rate which dipped to E1.34 at one point, and must surely sail past E1.40 now. Better than anything I dared to hope for :D
Why a long game? Why not?
Politics isn't usually so black and white...
Glad your getting a good Euro exchange rate, a good result for you.
Sure as this Government goes on there will be a lot of people making more money.
The important result is the euro exchange rate which dipped to E1.34 at one point, and must surely sail past E1.40 now. Better than anything I dared to hope for :D
Yes, that shows very clearly the type of person that you are, and all you care about! ;)
Marco.
Those votes were rigged, end of, so null and void. The *real* feelings of the Scottish people were reflected by the SNP's huge win last night in Scotland, so that very clear message being sent out is what you should be concentrating on instead....
Marco.
+ 1x10^6
Ali Tait
08-05-2015, 08:39
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/5fZwwZ.jpg
Marco.
That'll be most of the English then.. :eek:
Hahahaha... Aye - apart from our friends in the north! ;)
Marco.
The bottom line is this: if you're a nationalist and support Scottish independence, what's not to celebrate this morning, after a huge SNP success, other than a chinless wonder, completely out of touch with the real world, getting another chance to shit on you from a great height?
Oh, right enough.... Never mind, the good guys always win in the end - and for the SNP, the 'end game' is the long one that succeeds in delivering their goals for Scottish Independence ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
08-05-2015, 08:49
Well,
It looks like its another 5 years of them!
A...
Nah, mate, a mass revolt will come long before then :trust:
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!! :yesbruv:
Marco.
That'll be most of the English then.. :eek:
So it would seem... the North East has never felt more out on a limb that it does today.
I welcome a benevolent dictatorship of the SNP and will happily give you Berwick upon Tweed as a goodwill offering to our tartan masters. We ask in return only the right to govern our own cities democratically, your protection of our lands and livestock from the Tory hordes and that our women not be violated (outside the boundaries of Newcastle city centre on a Saturday night)
So it would seem... the North East has never felt more out on a limb that it does today.
I welcome a benevolent dictatorship of the SNP and will happily give you Berwick upon Tweed as a goodwill offering to our tartan masters. We ask in return only the right the right to govern our own cities democratically.
Throw in Southwaite and you got yourself a deal. :)
I welcome a benevolent dictatorship of the SNP and will happily give you Berwick upon Tweed as a goodwill offering to our tartan masters. We ask in return only the right to govern our own cities democratically, your protection of our lands and livestock from the Tory hordes and that our women not be violated (outside the boundaries of Newcastle city centre on a Saturday night)
Lol... More seriously, I would indeed welcome and love to see some sort of 'pact' that allowed people in the north of the UK (Scots and English) to divorce themselves completely from unjust Westminster rule, and leave those from London and 'the home counties' to their own devices.
Most of them, quite clearly, care not a jot about us, so why should we care about them???
The fact is there exists two entirely different mindsets and types of people north and south of the border, so London et all, might as well officially be a foreign country, for all that they have in common with us. I just hope that you guys can come with the Scots in some way, when their goal for independence is inevitably realised.
That's why Richard's superficial 'here for the now' thinking earlier completely misses the point:
Not that any Scottish MP's vote will amount to a row of beans for the next 5 years, as aforementioned. "All wind and piss" as my Dad would say.
Yes, perhaps, for as long as Scotland remains a part of the current (utter joke) of a 'union'. Your mistake is in wrongly presuming that the status quo, in terms of Scottish independence, will remain for the duration of those 5 years, and even if that is the case, it most certainly won't be forever, Mr Money Obsessed ;)
When long overdue changes happen (eventually as they surely will, as the SNP and its vision for Scottish independence grows from strength to strength), a huge 'FUCK YOU' you will be sent to Westminster [:upyours:], and the Scots (and hopefully the Welsh, Irish, and Northern English, in some way) can slowly TOGETHER build a fairer, more just nation, which prioritises first and foremost the needs of its ordinary citizens, before those of fat cats and the elite.
Marco.
anthonyTD
08-05-2015, 10:31
It would seem that the people got what the people wanted,
Unfortunetly, i dont think any of us will be ready, or expect, or even have a clue as to what they have in store for us in the next five years.
Either way, the majority it would seem have made theyre bed, etc, etc...:rolleyes:
A...
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 10:37
Glad your getting a good Euro exchange rate, a good result for you.
Sure as this Government goes on there will be a lot of people making more money.
Thanks. A few quid never go amiss, and when about to buy a house in France its nice to have a strong exchange rate. But it was really tongue-in-cheek. An expression of relief for my children that sound economic management instead of reckless bravado, posturing, slogans and largesse would leave them living in a country like Greece (or Spain, Portugal, Ireland without Dell...) . It may take those countries a generation to recover, and once it goes tits up, its far too late to regret the folly.
Lets hope people make money. Otherwise there will be no money. And if there is no money, there is nothing to spend on schools, hospitals, roads, welfare, pensions...
:cool:
It would seem that the people got what the people wanted,
No, 'the people' got what's been foisted upon them by the greedy and materialistic desires of London and 'the home counties' (epitomised by people such as Richard). Take that lot out of the equation, and how many folk in the rest of the UK yesterday do you think voted for Tory rule?
Miliband was also a poor Labour leader, lacking credibility, and that along with SNP winning almost every seat in Scotland, sealed our fate for another five years of austerity under Tory rule.
That's why something *needs* to be done to facilitate the HUGE DIVISION OF DESIRES, and outlook in life, that exists between those who live in London and 'the home counties', and the rest of us! And mark my words, that day is coming - and soon......;)
So 'that lot', down there, should enjoy their cosy existence for as long as they can.
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-05-2015, 10:42
So it would seem... the North East has never felt more out on a limb that it does today.
I welcome a benevolent dictatorship of the SNP and will happily give you Berwick upon Tweed as a goodwill offering to our tartan masters. We ask in return only the right to govern our own cities democratically, your protection of our lands and livestock from the Tory hordes and that our women not be violated (outside the boundaries of Newcastle city centre on a Saturday night)
:lol: Love it mate. I'll be down this weekend for a night out on the toon.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 11:03
No, 'the people' got what's been foisted upon them by the greedy and materialistic desires of London and 'the home counties' (epitomised by people such as Richard). Take that lot out of the equation, and how many folk in the rest of the UK yesterday do you think voted for Tory rule?
That's why something *needs* to be done to facilitate the HUGE DIVISION OF DESIRES, and outlook in life, that exists between those above, and the rest of us! And mark my words, that day is coming - and soon......;)
Marco.
Yeah - we mark em. How frightening you are.
Lets be quite clear - outright majority under the system we have always used. 37% of all votes cast nationally for Conservative. 5% for the SNP. They will get the influence their popular support merits. The majority will be allowed to have the government they want
It was the same with the Independence vote. The people didn't vote for what Marco told them they need, so the system was corrupt. Maybe democracy should be relabelled "Marco knows best"
Meantime - I'll keep quaking in my boots here in the prosperous South (that is from Berwick to Land End if you look at the blue on the map)
http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-uk-election/#0
anthonyTD
08-05-2015, 11:06
I hear you,
I think for many who voted, the alternative of letting back in a party that almost succeeded in bankrupting the country' was too much to bear.
No, 'the people' got what's been foisted upon them by the greedy and materialistic desires of London and 'the home counties' (epitomised by people such as Richard). Take that lot out of the equation, and how many folk in the rest of the UK yesterday do you think voted for Tory rule?
Miliband was also a poor Labour leader, lacking credibility, and that along with SNP winning almost every seat in Scotland, sealed our fate for another five years of austerity under Tory rule.
That's why something *needs* to be done to facilitate the HUGE DIVISION OF DESIRES, and outlook in life, that exists between those who live in London and 'the home counties', and the rest of us! And mark my words, that day is coming - and soon......;)
Marco.
Well, my intention isn't to be frightening, Richard, merely what I consider as realistic. If you don't consider the system as being corrupt, then you're blind, and perhaps also because you're unwittingly part of that corruption? We're all entitled to our views, so let's just see what the future brings! ;)
At least I genuinely care about the needs of people who are less privileged than me, and if given a choice right now, would put their best interests ahead of mine.
Can you, hand on heart, say the same, without expressing all of a sudden some faux-concern in your last posts (to save face), for the less privileged than you?
Marco.
I think for many who voted, the alternative of letting back in a party that almost succeeded in bankrupting the country' was too much to bear.
That's why we need to try and create a different 'country' for us to live in, one that can prosper properly, and divorce ourselves from this sham of a 'union'.
Marco.
Thanks. A few quid never go amiss, and when about to buy a house in France its nice to have a strong exchange rate. But it was really tongue-in-cheek. An expression of relief for my children that sound economic management instead of reckless bravado, posturing, slogans and largesse would leave them living in a country like Greece (or Spain, Portugal, Ireland without Dell...) . It may take those countries a generation to recover, and once it goes tits up, its far too late to regret the folly.
Lets hope people make money. Otherwise there will be no money. And if there is no money, there is nothing to spend on schools, hospitals, roads, welfare, pensions...
:cool:
Richard,
You have just illustrated my point better than I ever could have.
The problem with "Trickle down economics" which you seem to proport (and as demonstrated by the last 5 years of government) is human nature.
We are selfish and look out for ourselves, as youve just demonstrated.
CUTS CUTS CUTS
Thats whats been happening, not more spending! Wheres the money going exactly?
Public sector jobs at risk, more poverty and injustice across UK, fiddled Statistics, vested interests and lobbying, a complicit media, a State with a Surveillance agenda and one that doesnt think twice about invoking emergency powers to change Law retrospectivly when its actions bave been deemed illegal by the European Court.
What kind of Society are we building for our Children?
12 Billion of further cuts promised...and they have refused to say where from.
Theres only so much "low hanging fruit" they can make cuts to before the baseline gets higher...and higher...and higher.
As a parent myself I sincerely hope your children dont get caught up in it.
But they might...
But your house in France will be cheaper so Hurrah!
(Tongue in cheek)
Like everything in life there has to be a balance.
A balance between personal liberty to take what you can from the system and that of giving what you have worked for to the State.
Both are extremes...need to find the balance to benefit Society, but I dont think so with this Government based on past performance.
Truly...I despair.
Thank feck Scotland has spoken and spoken loud.
I feel for all those North of Greater London I really do.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 11:31
Well, my intention isn't to be frightening, Richard, merely what I consider as realistic. We're all entitled to our views, so let's just see what the future brings! ;)
At least I genuinely care about the needs of people who are less privileged than me, and if given a choice right now, would put their best interests ahead of mine.
Can you, hand on heart, say the same, without expressing all of a sudden some faux-concern in your last posts (to save face), for the less privileged than you?
Marco.
Marco - less priviliged than me? Like I said, state school, not a penny of inheritance, entirely self-made and an income in the "respectable but ordinary" category. I'm no fat cat.
The faux concern is to want to do lovely fluffy bunny things, with not the first concept of where the money will come from to pay for it, under the pretence that it is too sordid to worry about things like money.
Imagine saying to a teacher or a nurse "You are wonderful people, I truly appreciate and value all you do, and thank you from the bottom of my heart. Unfortunately, we can't pay you because we find money a tawdry capitalist obsession, but I really really appreciate the contribution you make to society"
I am married to a teacher in a state school. My Aunt is a Nurse. My Uncle (her husband) a hospital orderly. My Dad left state school at 16 and studied for an HND during national service and after demob. His Dad was a signalman on the Crayford railway line. As a student I cleaned the toilets at the local mental hospital. My stepson has just raised (with fellow students at Sheffield) £10,000 and counting for Nepal. You delude yourself mate!
I just understand that you can't buy a £6000 Technics (as owned by all of the oppressed masses) or racks of shiny bottles and brass - or for fucks sake £600 on a fucking mains lead without having money. (Nobody mention the prominently displayed black Mercedes on the avatar)
Tell one of the oppressed poor that you spent £600 which could have gone to help Nepal on a mains lead! Get real!
Lol, calm down dear! :eyebrows:
I'll get to this later, as I'm going out now for a bit, but how much did you give to charity last year, Richard? What percentage of your annual income did it equate to? If you wish, we can compare our respective notes on that later... ;)
The fact is, I'm not the one here who throughout this whole debate has been harping on about the exchange rate, so I can make as much money as possible from the sale of my house, to go and live in France!!!
That, my friend, is quite clearly what you care about most. You're a 'looker after number-oner', and bugger the consequences for anyone else, kind of guy, pure and simple - and if you don't see that, you're in denial.
Laters, muchacho...
Marco.
Richard, like me, has a knowledge economics and socio-economics. I'm also guessing he has a reasonable grasp of history and political history.
Those of us with this knowledge realise that the best way to improve the lot of everyone (not just the rich) is to concentrate on creating wealth first and spending it second. Socialism makes things worse for everyone, especially the poorer people.
So to say we 'don't care' or are 'selfish' is to completely miss the point. We do 'care' and more to the point we understand what needs to be done to make that more than empty socialist rhetoric.
London? Lab has 48 of the 73 seats available and made gains this time around....
UKIP third largest voted party with 13% of the vote!
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 12:22
Richard, like me, has a knowledge economics and socio-economics. I'm also guessing he has a reasonable grasp of history and political history.
Those of us with this knowledge realise that the best way to improve the lot of everyone (not just the rich) is to concentrate on creating wealth first and spending it second. Socialism makes things worse for everyone, especially the poorer people.
So to say we 'don't care' or are 'selfish' is to completely miss the point. We do 'care' and more to the point we understand what needs to be done to make that more than empty socialist rhetoric.
Yes. Nicely put
First let me apologise for the aggression and bad language in my earlier post. I found the hypocrisy Martin refers to in this post, and the accusation that I don't care offensive and unfounded.
I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said "you can't help the poor by becoming one of them". And as Martin notes - you can't share a cake when there is no cake to share.
And having made that apology, I will bow out. The discussion is pointless when the argument is that people shouldn't be allowed to vote the way they do, and "the only tory voters are in the home counties" when the map manifestly shows otherwise.
Anybody can wring their hands and say what they would do if they could. But if it's not backed with the means to deliver, it is just hot air and empty promises.
Problem is Richard, its not being delivered. And its going to get worse.
Which was my point.
A few quid never go amiss, and when about to buy a house in France its nice to have a strong exchange rate.
They should put that on your gravestone, mate (as 'Richard's mantra in life')! ;)
Perhaps you would consider giving the extra money you've made, as a result of your good fortune, to charity? As a practicing Christian, I could put you in touch with some :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 12:34
Richard,
CUTS CUTS CUTS
Thats whats been happening, not more spending! Wheres the money going exactly?
.
Pensions £138 billion
Health care£126 billion
Education £97 billion
Welfare £117 billion
Defence £46 billion
Protection £32 billion
Transport £18 billion
Central Government £18billion
Other spending £49 billion
Interest of government debt £45 billion
Total £686 billion
The questions are - where is it coming from?
And what happens if your cost of borrowing goes from 3.5% to 8%?
(actually - if it goes to 8% and the EU don't help you because you are a tiny economy and in the euro - it goes to 25%)
That would make the interest bill £321billion
You can't borrow more money (the way we coped that year (2013) Income was £550 billion so we borrowed the missing bit
When you can't borrow the £321 billion - but have to pay it - which of those headings above are you going to cut money from? (Ok ok - lets take defence as read. We'll cut it to zero - that leaves 321-46 = £275 to find from the big spending departments (Pensions, Health, Education, Welfare). Which one are you going to not pay? (The Greeks are starting with pensioners and government employees - nurses and teachers)
Where would you start Gary?
Richard, like me, has a knowledge economics and socio-economics. I'm also guessing he has a reasonable grasp of history and political history.
Yes, but unfortunately none about the harsh reality of the world most people live in TODAY, which is rather more important. Here are some things to consider:
Why, here in the UK, in this lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on corruptly 'massaged' government figures)?
Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?
Have you ever, as someone who's previously worked all his days, and paid handsomely in income tax, but have had to give up work due to serious ill health, tried to survive on no income, with no benefits whatsoever, when Atos tell you that you're fit for work, and so stop your benefits, when quite clearly (as confirmed by your doctor) you are no fit state whatsoever to work?
And that's happening so that the government can use the money saved to further line the pockets of the rich......!!! :doh: :rolleyes:
But of course, if you're black or a drug addict, then all of a sudden the benefits coffers open up.... Is that fair or indeed more importantly, in any way moral, in what is supposed to be a civilised society, free from austerity??
When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of the poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to inhabit?
Lecture to those people about economics and socio-economics and see what they tell you!!
Marco.
Richard, this is aimed at you....
The fact is, you're way too cocooned from reality in the comfort of Kent to even be able to BEGIN to contemplate what life is like here in the UK for the majority of people.
I've visited people 'living' (and I use that term very loosely) in housing schemes in the east end of Glasgow, which deserve no other description than slums, trying to survive on a minimum wage, who've hardly got two pennies to rub together, in order to feed or clothe themselves and their family, after they've paid their bills!
That's not a life; it is a pitiful (and indeed disgraceful) inhuman existence. This is 2015, not 1915 - and the Tories played a major part in creating that austerity and the suffering that many here are currently enduring, day to day IN BRITAIN. When was the last time you've witnessed anything like that, first hand??
You honestly don't have a clue, and Cameron and his fellow chinless wonders will do hee-haw to improve that situation for those poor people... Have a think about that next time you're sipping cocktails in France or intellectualising about the economy!! ;)
Marco.
Yes, but unfortunately none about the harsh reality of the world most people live in TODAY, which is rather more important. Here are some things to consider:
Why, here in the UK, in the lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on deliberately 'massaged' government figures)?
Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?
Have you ever tried to survive on no income, with no benefits whatsoever when Atos tell you that you're fit for work and stop your benefits, when quite clearly (as confirmed by your doctor) that you are no fit state whatsoever to do so?
When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of our poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to enjoy living in?
Lecture to those people about economics and socio-economics and see what they tell you!!
Marco.
Why, here in the UK, in the lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on deliberately 'massaged' government figures)?
They are not relying on food banks to eat. before we had food banks were people starving to death? No. I lived on benefits for almost 4 years, no food banks back then. Did I starve to death? Obviously not. If you are on a low income a bit of free food frees up some cash to spend on something else you could not otherwise afford.
Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?
There is no such thing as the 'bedroom tax'. However if you are claiming Housing Benefit to cover your rent and you are living in a house that is larger than you need you no longer get extra benefit to pay for it. Consequently there is at the moment a proces of re-shuffling wherby over-occupiers are being moved to smaller, cheaper accomodation. This, in theory, frees up welfare money to be spent on more deserving cases.
When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of our poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to enjoy living in?
Well I can't speak for Richard but given that you have been to my house and seen where I live I am surprised you would even ask me that. It is not a council estate, admittedly, but quite a few of the houses on my street are council houses or housing association houses, which amounts to the same thing.
Perhaps you should come over and you could speak to the girl who was in front of me in the queue in the off licence last Friday. Ordinary working day, ten o'clock in the morning and she is buying 8 cans of Carlsberg and twenty Benson. Ask her what she thinks about the plight of the masses and the downtrodden working classes. My guess is she doesn't give a monkey's. That's the reality.
Why, here in the UK, in the lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on deliberately 'massaged' government figures)?
They are not relying on food banks to eat. before we had food banks were people starving to death? No. I lived on benefits for almost 4 years, no food banks back then. Did I starve to death? Obviously not. If you are on a low income a bit of free food frees up some cash to spend on something else you could not otherwise afford.
Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?
There is no such thing as the 'bedroom tax'. However if you are claiming Housing Benefit to cover your rent and you are living in a house that is larger than you need you no longer get extra benefit to pay for it. Consequently there is at the moment a proces of re-shuffling wherby over-occupiers are being moved to smaller, cheaper accomodation. This, in theory, frees up welfare money to be spent on more deserving cases.
When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of our poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to enjoy living in?
Well I can't speak for Richard but given that you have been to my house and seen where I live I am surprised you would even ask me that. It is not a council estate, admittedly, but quite a few of the houses on my street are council houses or housing association houses, which amounts to the same thing.
Perhaps you should come over and you could speak to the girl who was in front of me in the queue in the off licence last Friday. Ordinary working day, ten o'clock in the morning and she is buying 8 cans of Carlsberg and twenty Benson. Ask her what she thinks about the plight of the masses and the downtrodden working classes. My guess is she doesn't give a monkey's. That's the reality.
not true Martin. There are no smaller properties for them to go to. net result is what they wanted..ie a reduction in their bill to benefits without it looking that way. my council had 2000 people vying to get moved to 1 available small 1 bed premises...as far as i know that has been echoed across much of the country.
the vast majority of the people libing in big houses on big rents being picked up by the state are in London.
They are not relying on food banks to eat.
Jeez, you really are out of touch with reality... That's utter nonsense!! :mental:
I've seen it first hand myself, and indeed have contributed to said food banks, through work I do for the church. Open your eyes properly, Martin, and examine what happens in the REAL world, not the one you *want* to imagine exists, based on what you're fed by a corrupt political system, or that best placates your insecurities.
I notice you avoided the third question I asked, nice one. After all, the indefensible is rather difficult to defend...
As for the rest, it's a waste of time even going there, as it'll simply fall on deaf ears. You believe what you want to believe, if it makes you happy.
Marco.
The discussion is pointless when the argument is that people shouldn't be allowed to vote the way they do, and "the only tory voters are in the home counties" when the map manifestly shows otherwise.
The fact is, there were four million people in the UK who didn't vote Tory - and there would've been a damn sight more than that had they not bought into Cameron's scaremongering campaign about the SNP and their supposedly adverse political intentions for English citizens, should they have formed a government with Labour, thus reducing the English Labour vote in the process, out of FEAR for what might've happened, when the reality would've been somewhat different.
Cameron's getting rather adept at successfully employing those scaremongering tactics, as including what happened in the Scottish referendum, that's twice now he's managed to fool people by playing on their fears, or by falsifying fear to further his ends. That luck, however, is due to run out when the truth eventually comes out (as it always does), and the British electorate finally wake up and smell the coffee.
*That* is when those currently living 'high up in their castles' will have good cause to worry. Bring it on, I say, as the day of reckoning for the 'fat cats' is LONG overdue........
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 14:23
I'm sure you're right Marco. But until I joined this forum, I hadn't appreciated how much fun it was to be wrong all the time ;)
So how much of your good fortune now, in terms of what you've gained through foreign exchange interest rates, are you going to donate to charity? :)
Furthermore, how about attempting to answer some of the questions I directed towards you earlier, in relation to how out of touch you are, tucked up down there in Kent, with the concerns of people living in the UK, who are less privileged and well off than you are?
Marco.
anthonyTD
08-05-2015, 14:46
Its all a step closer to the one world government that is just around the corner!
There, i've opend up a whole new can of worms. :eyebrows:;)
Beobloke
08-05-2015, 14:47
The fact is, there were four million people in the UK who didn't vote Tory - and there would've been a damn sight more than that had they not bought into Cameron's scaremongering campaign about the SNP and their supposedly adverse political intentions for English citizens,
Out of interest, Marco, how are those of us in the south supposed to have voted SNP, should we have wanted to? I checked my ballot paper thoroughly and we didn't have an SNP candidate in Hampshire, or a Plaid Cymru one come to that.
The one world government is relying on the climate change scam and that's not being going too well of late.
Hi Adam,
Out of interest, Marco, how are those of us in the south supposed to have voted SNP, should we have wanted to? I checked my ballot paper thoroughly and we didn't have an SNP candidate in Hampshire, or a Plaid Cymru one come to that.
You're entitled to vote how you wish to vote. I'm simply serving up a reality check to those whom I consider badly need one ;)
Also, I'm almost certain that had an SNP vote been available to people in England (especially to those in the north), we wouldn't have woken up to a majority Conservative government this morning!
Marco.
The Black Adder
08-05-2015, 15:10
Another 5 years....
Sigh!
Hark the Ghost of Thatcher is near.
Beobloke
08-05-2015, 15:11
Hi Adam,
You're entitled to vote how you wish to vote..
I couldn't agree more.
I'm simply serving up a reality check to those whom I consider badly need one ;)
.
Might I humbly suggest that the reality check in this case is that it is rather futile banging on about the wonderfulness of any party for which only (very roughly) a third of the population has the option to vote for.
As far as I'm concerned, even having Plaid Cymru and the SNP in the leaders' debate was utterly pointless.
People should keep an eye on the fact that the conservatives slaughtered the LibDems in the south west and also gained in Wales, something close to 25 seats AFAIR, Labor winning a few more North East seats would not have made much difference.
I feel the country has moved one step closer to a federal system which may be no bad thing. Another point to keep in mid is that the constituency boundaries change in 2018 reducing the number of MPs to 600 and reducing Labours potential by 15~20 seats at least. We could be facing a long period with the Tories in power at Westminster...
IMight I humbly suggest that the reality check in this case is that it is rather futile banging on about the wonderfulness of any party for which only (very roughly) a third of the population has the option to vote for.
Well, that could well change in future!
In the meantime, what are folks supposed to do who abhor the political policies of Cameron and his chinless cronies, and all that they stand for - just sit back and take it?
As long as we have free speech in this country, others and I will exercise our right to use it. The surge towards the SNP is growing ever stronger, and like free speech, it won't go away....
Marco.
I feel the country has moved one step closer to a federal system which may be no bad thing. Another point to keep in mid is that the constituency boundaries change in 2018 reducing the number of MPs to 600 and reducing Labours potential by 15~20 seats at least. We could be facing a long period with the Tories in power at Westminster...
As I've already said, if things continue as they are, a revolt will happen far sooner (or Scottish Independence, whichever comes first), as folks can only take so much... Titter ye not, it's happened before elsewhere!
Marco.
walpurgis
08-05-2015, 15:37
High time people had to meet good standards intellectually and educationally before being allowed to vote. Then perhaps they'd stop electing this worthless shower.
walpurgis
08-05-2015, 15:40
Hark the Ghost of Thatcher is near.
And the sooner Cameron goes to join her the better!
As I've already said, if things continue as they are, a revolt will happen far sooner (or Scottish Independence, whichever comes first), as folks can only take so much... Titter ye not, it's happened before elsewhere!
Marco.
I think it is much more likely that more powers will be devolved and we will move closer, if not to, a Federal system.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 15:46
So how much of your good fortune now, in terms of what you've gained through foreign exchange interest rates, are you going to donate to charity? :)
Furthermore, how about attempting to answer some of the questions I directed towards you earlier, in relation to how out of touch you are with the concerns of people living in the UK, who are less privileged and well off than you are, tucked up down there in Kent?
Marco.
I'm donating nothing to charity (well, I'm not willy waving telling you how much). The charities I support regularly are RNIB, RLSB ( the Sevenoaks branch), RNLI, Smile (a charity providing surgery for children with hair lips in developing countries),and Gamble (the dreadfully named but worthy village charity which my stepson works for (free), and who has worked as an aid worker in Africa on a voluntary basis. GAMbia Building Links In Education is supposedly the derivation of the name. Both Sue and I support it not just financially but with direct fund-raising activities, sourcing educational equipment and shipping to Gambia in containers, and promotionally - please give generously). As noted previously I supported relief in Nepal, including financial support for Georges initiative at Sheffield University http://us10.campaign-archive1.com/?u=e7c3d616f3dfb9122f6825d14&id=360142c6d2&e=[UNIQID] (please give generously) and last year supported Philipino hurricane relief with a local direct aid initiative. Sue is again supporting Cancer relief with the race for life, which I will be supporting financially and logistically - let me know if you would like to sponsor her, and whether I can set up a sponsorship page on the forum
I'll answer as many questions as you can remind me of , but I'm not going to go back-tracking looking for them
I have no idea how out of touch I am with the concerns of people living in the UK, but I note more of them voted for the government I did than voted for the one you did
If there were any questions I missed, I'm sure you'll remind me of them
Jeez, you really are out of touch with reality... That's utter nonsense!! :mental:
I've seen it first hand myself, and indeed have contributed to said food banks, through work I do for the church. Open your eyes properly, Martin, and examine what happens in the REAL world, not the one you *want* to imagine exists, based on what you're fed by a corrupt political system, or that best placates your insecurities.
I notice you avoided the third question I asked, nice one. After all, the indefensible is rather difficult to defend...
As for the rest, it's a waste of time even going there, as it'll simply fall on deaf ears. You believe what you want to believe, if it makes you happy.
Marco.
I don't have any insecurities so it can't be that...
If you arguments contained less emotiona and empty rhetoric and a bit more reasoned logic you might get some way to changing my mind. I don't identify with my opinions and am quite willing to change them if someone says something that makes me think.
re the food banks - are you actually saying that without the food bank these people you have seen there using it would starve to death?
If they are unemployed they will be getting benefits, some of which is supposed to be used to buy food. I suppose it is possible that they are not eligible for benefits, but that is unlikely unless they are illegal immigrants who have not figured out how to scam the system yet.
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I don't think that there are any poor people in this country. I don't know why.
The other question you should ask yourself is this:
Why was the landslide win for the SNP in Scotland, during this general election, not reflected in terms of votes, in the recent referendum for Scottish independence?
The fact is, the SNP today is still the staunchly pro-independence party it was then, only a few months ago, when the Scottish people were supposedly voting for Britain to remain 'better together'...
Are you trying to tell me then, that all those who supposedly voted against independence last September have miraculously all of a sudden changed their minds and voted FOR independence, during this election? Because, quite simply, that's what voting for SNP yesterday meant.
In that respect, it doesn't take a genius to work out that something seriously fishy has been going on, in terms of reflecting the REAL situation in Scotland........... Think about it!
Marco.
I don't have any insecurities so it can't be that...
If you arguments contained less emotiona and empty rhetoric and a bit more reasoned logic you might get some way to changing my mind. I don't identify with my opinions and am quite willing to change them if someone says something that makes me think.
re the food banks - are you actually saying that without the food bank these people you have seen there using it would starve to death?
If they are unemployed they will be getting benefits, some of which is supposed to be used to buy food. I suppose it is possible that they are not eligible for benefits, but that is unlikely unless they are illegal immigrants who have not figured out how to scam the system yet.
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I don't think that there are any poor people in this country. I don't know why.
I'm a highly passionate, hot-blooded and emotional creature by nature - always have been. It's in my Italian blood... Throughout the vast majority of my life, that's been an asset, and so have used it to my considerable advantage.
We're just about to take my dad out for dinner, for his 82nd birthday, so I'll get back to you on your points later! ;)
Marco.
There is no effective opposition in Scotland, the landslide victory by the SNP just proved the point that the Concervatives/LibDems/Labour have no connection whatsoever with the Scottish people. What may be needed is a Scottish Unionist party to provide some counter balance...
I think it is much more likely that more powers will be devolved and we will move closer, if not to, a Federal system.
Then bring it on!
Right, some champagne awaits at the restaurant.......... Laters, amigos! :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
08-05-2015, 16:36
Yes, but unfortunately none about the harsh reality of the world most people live in TODAY, which is rather more important. Here are some things to consider:
Why, here in the UK, in this lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on corruptly 'massaged' government figures)?
Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?
Have you ever, as someone who's previously worked all his days, and paid handsomely in income tax, but have had to give up work due to serious ill health, tried to survive on no income, with no benefits whatsoever, when Atos tell you that you're fit for work, and so stop your benefits, when quite clearly (as confirmed by your doctor) you are no fit state whatsoever to work?
And that's happening so that the government can use the money instead to line the pockets of the rich......!!! :doh: :rolleyes:
But of course, if you're black or a drug addict, then all of a sudden the benefits coffers open up.... Is that fair or indeed more importantly, in any way moral, in what is supposed to be a civilised society, free from austerity??
When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of the poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to inhabit?
Lecture to those people about economics and socio-economics and see what they tell you!!
Marco.
I agree with a lot of what you've said Marco but not that bit. The system may assess drug addicts who are not contributing or functioning as normal due to their habit and give them something to live on but 'if you're black' ? :scratch: the 'situation' really isnt that simplistic or as black and white as that.
The one world government is relying on the climate change scam and that's not being going too well of late.
Martin, you were holding a credible argument up to that point.
I'll accept the causes are open to debate but when the flood waters are lapping at your door come back and tell me it's not changing.
Oldpinkman
08-05-2015, 16:59
The other question you should ask yourself is this:
Why was the landslide win for the SNP in Scotland, during this general election, not reflected, in terms of votes, in the recent referendum for Scottish independence?
The fact is, the SNP today is still the staunchly pro-independence party it was then, only a few months ago, when the Scottish people were supposedly voting to be 'better together'...
Are you trying to tell me then, that all those who supposedly voted against independence last September have miraculously all of a sudden changed their minds and voted FOR independence, during this election? Because, quite simply, that's what voting for SNP yesterday meant.
In that respect, it doesn't take a genius to work out that something seriously fishy has been going on, in terms of reflecting the REAL situation in Scotland........... Think about it!
Marco.
Doh - let me see? Real independence would involve paying your own way, whereas electing the SNP into Scotland allows you to whine about wanting more subsidies without the responsibility of paying for them, AND, independence would almost certainly have involved a loss of EU membership, and the use of Sterling as the national currency. So the issues are entirely separate. The Scots are less stupid than you seem to believe
anthonyTD
08-05-2015, 17:23
Say happy birthday from me!
A...
I'm a highly passionate and emotional creature by nature - always have been. It's in my Italian blood... Throughout the vast majority of my life, that's been an asset, and so have used it to my considerable advantage.
We're just about to take my dad out for dinner, for his 82nd birthday, so I'll get back to you on your points later! ;)
Marco.
the irony of Marco refering to fat cats
when the people he claims to champion, the poor, starving downtrodden masses on council estates would look at his Champagne swilling, Mercedes driving, done so well for himself he barely works these days, spends a shitload on hifi and good food, lifestyle
and consider him one of those fat cats.
Maybe Marco you're one of the those the masses will be coming for come the peoples revolution you see coming? When your that poor, everyone above you is rich
walpurgis
08-05-2015, 18:49
Is that 'sour grapes'? Not exactly polite, was it?
sour grapes nope, just an irony I see, Marco's evidently done well for himself, good on him, I just find it highly ironic given his posts that he says the "Fat Cats" as some otherworldy southern Tory species when the truly poor would likely view him in the same category.
Rich is a matter of perspective
Be afraid...the Jock Menace is coming! :D
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