PARIS. Terrorists Strike! Many Dead & Wounded......

[walpurgis]

Have you seen the news?

A terrorist assassination squad has raided the Charlie Hebdo satirical magazine Paris HQ, shooting indiscriminately and killing at least 12 people and wounding many more. Seemingly due to the publication's 'mocking' of Islam.

The perpetrators are currently on the run.

This will no doubt further fuel the anti Moslem vocalisation rising across European countries recently.

What next?

[Spectral Morn]

Have you seen the news?

A terrorist assassination squad has raided the Charlie Hebdo satirical magazine Paris HQ, shooting indiscriminately and killing at least 12 people and wounding many more. Seemingly due to the publication's 'mocking' of Islam.

The perpetrators are currently on the run.

This will no doubt further fuel the anti Moslem vocalisation rising across European countries recently.

What next?

Worse, there is footage on You Tube of them killing a police officer. Lying on the ground shot and begging, they shoot him in the head. Dear God its there on You Tube a man murdered...............

Don't look for it, I am sitting here in tears.

[The Black Adder]

I'm still in shock of all this... lot's of emotions. I won't watch the youtube video.

[Spectral Morn]

I'm still in shock of all this... lot's of emotions. I won't watch the youtube video.

Don't. Its in the open, no warning, children could see it.

When I pull myself together I will go report it. I question it being there, hand the footage over to the French Police but in the clear for kids to see is totally irresponsible. I am sitting shaking, feel sick. No one should have to see that.

[The Black Adder]

It's all too sick... Youtube should pull it immediately.

[Spectral Morn]

It's all too sick... Youtube should pull it immediately.

I dont read French, I don't think its been posted to celebrate it, its posted by an eye witness but its to horrific to see. I have never felt like this before. I was stupid to look

[struth]

one day there will be an almighty backlash and unfortunately itll be the innocent decent moslim folk thatll suffer. a disgrace to their and everyone elses god.

[Macca]

one day there will be an almighty backlash and unfortunately itll be the innocent decent moslim folk thatll suffer. a disgrace to their and everyone elses god.

I agree - they need to put their own house in order as all they are doing is sowing the wind just like the Nazis. And we all remember how well it worked out for them in the end. The problem is they percieve us as weak due to the years of appeasment.

[walpurgis]

You mention Nazis Martin. These kinds of outrages and the comparably frail state of European economies is exactly what brought about the rise to power of extreme right wing movements including the Nazis in pre WW2 Europe. I think it almost inevitable that something similar will happen again. Perhaps not so extreme, but the right will definitely rise as a force to be reckoned with.

[Tarzan]

Cowards!!!!:steam:

[Macca]

Yes, quite likely, although the Nazis were extreme left-wing of course...it is one of the oldest lies that racism is an exclusively 'right wing' phenomonon. Check out how many Jews the Soviets liquidated between 1917 and 1953.

[Sovereign]

Amazing what you see online, I found the youtube clip, I didn't watch it but I have a daughter of five who I have to monitor closely as sites you presume are safe are not.

[The Black Adder]

They are callas murderers... They don't function like sane people (much like the Nazi regime) they are in a world of self taught unfounded beliefs and internal mind conditioning propaganda. They don't deserve to walk this earth.

[Spectral Morn]

Amazing what you see online, I found the youtube clip, I didn't watch it but I have a daughter of five who I have to monitor closely as sites you presume are safe are not.

Sky News is now showing the whole thing, just blurred the police man - sick to show this on TV

[The Black Adder]

That's Sky for you... Wankers.

[Tarzan]

They are callas murderers... They don't function like sane people (much like the Nazi regime) they are in a world of self taught unfounded beliefs and internal mind conditioning propaganda. They don't deserve to walk this earth.


x2.:steam:

[istari_knight]

Sky News is now showing the whole thing, just blurred the police man - sick to show this on TV

I was surprised to see it shown on the news too. :(

Hopefully they can neutralize them without the loss of any more innocent lives.

[Spectral Morn]

That's Sky for you... Wankers.

I want them to issue a warning or better still not show this clip but is there any point in trying :( Its all over You Tube now including re posting by BBC News and Sky and others - sick.

I know we need to know what happened but seeing a human being executed on the street is just too much info

[RichB]

Such acts as these are intended to prompt a backlash born of fear which is then used as a justification for more horrific actions.

This of course why the media show things the way they do to keep us fearful and stoke the flames of greater conflict. War without end as Orwell had it.

I've had to quit social media and neither watch nor read the news these days, I used to be a news junkie btw. All it does is increase my own sense of powerlessness and make me anxious.

[Firebottle]

You can't call these people callous murderers, that's presuming they have some sense of what the word murder means.

They are just amoral animals, it's tempting to include expletives in the description but that's the truth of it.

With an 'enemy' that doesn't give any value to life we, as a civilised society, are all stuffed :brickwall:

[Gazjam]

Tragedy...all in the name of Religion.
Fucking madness.

The French dont mess about or wring their hands over attacks like this...
I forsee Muslim leaders being called in.

[Oldpinkman]

I agree - they need to put their own house in order as all they are doing is sowing the wind just like the Nazis. And we all remember how well it worked out for them in the end. The problem is they percieve us as weak due to the years of appeasment.

I take it by "they" you mean anyone of the Muslim faith. Just how would you suggest ordinary Muslims do that? Lets take some real examples. How do all the muslims working in the tourist trade in Turkey stop fanatics in France or elsewhere in the world? The individuals involved in terrorism are motivated by political not religious ambition. It helps nobody and fuels conflict to make that sort of automatic association. Are all atheists responsible for North Korean, or Ukrainian atrocities? Or for Nazi war crimes? Do we include the muslim children in refugee camps in Syria in "they"?

[walpurgis]

I know we need to know what happened but seeing a human being executed on the street is just too much info

Why should it be 'sanitised'? The facts are brutal, but they are the facts!

[Macca]

I take it by "they" you mean anyone of the Muslim faith.

You take it wrong then, which makes the rest of your post a bit if a waste of time.

[anthonyTD]

:)
Such acts as these are intended to prompt a backlash born of fear which is then used as a justification for more horrific actions.

This of course why the media show things the way they do to keep us fearful and stoke the flames of greater conflict. War without end as Orwell had it.

I've had to quit social media and neither watch nor read the news these days, I used to be a news junkie btw. All it does is increase my own sense of powerlessness and make me anxious.

[The Black Adder]

Why should it be 'sanitised'? The facts are brutal, but they are the facts!

Yes but to the people who did it, it's sensationalism... It can be shown in other ways, by stills or even simply by telling the world verbally. Clips are too easy to show and they can be too powerful sometimes. Yes people need to know but splashing anything and everything on national/worldwide broadcast can sometimes be (I think) fueling the matter in hand.

Let us not forget.. The media have no scruples. Only if the material has the potential of a very, very weighty lawsuit attached then they will have 'some' second thoughts about showing material... and even then they don't mind being sued because they can afford it and yesterdays news is worthless.

[Spectral Morn]

It comes to how much is too much re telling the news. The item I saw on You tube earlier today was not from a news agency but a civilian, someone on the scene who no doubt wanted to get the footage out asap to help tell the story. The problem is there was no warning re graphic content, no adult only setting and no shading to cover the police man. Now most of the professional news agencies are now shading the policeman some earlier were not, or cutting the footage to after the cold blooded execution.

Seeing someone murdered in cold blood is in my view just too far across that line in the sand re what is too far. I know I have seen death before on the news but this was face to face close quarters no mercy murder. It was frankly like I had seen it in reality and it upset me badly. Frankly I didn't know exactly what I was going to see and it was too much. Imagine a child saw that, the relatives of the policeman, no warning as awful and real as the most depraved evil things one can see.

I won't ever forget seeing him roll towards his attacker and put his hand out, I feel asking for mercy, he got none. The man who did this with the other attacker ran to him, then walked the final few feet and shot him with an AK45 in the head, then they both ran away back to their car punching the air and as it now turns out shouting in triumph. I didn't need to see this and I didn't give my consent to see this. I had no warning to make a choice to watch or not. I guess I was foolish going to You Tube to look for what Sky were saying was there but I had no info to make a choice re watching or not, as to what the material was exactly.

Years ago News items in Northern Ireland, warning were given, send your children out of the room, and don't watch, this is upsetting, their was a long pause before the item began. Any warnings today where virtually non existent or allowed no time to change channel, look away.

[The Black Adder]

even your description of it Neil (to me) is too much....

Even though I've not seen it I get the full gravity of the situation and the acts that were put on those poor innocent people.

I'm not 'ever' going to watch it.

What can be done to stop this kind of thing happening again...

[struth]

I think we also have to think of these poor people's relatives. The policeman's wife, children, parents seeing that on tv or the internet is disgusting.. Being recently bereaved I know I would not want find such about a loved one of mine.

[Spectral Morn]

even your description of it Neil (to me) is too much....

Even though I've not seen it I get the full gravity of the situation and the acts that were put on those poor innocent people.

I'm not 'ever' going to watch it.

What can be done to stop this kind of thing happening again...

I don't know, off-com, press complaints for professional news agencies but citizen reporters with phone footage, compelled to post on You tube etc I just don't know.....

[Spectral Morn]

I think we also have to think of these poor people's relatives. The policeman's wife, children, parents seeing that on tv or the internet is disgusting.. Being recently bereaved I know I would not want find such about a loved one of mine.

Yes, I think great insensitivity has been shown to day, footage repeated and repeated and repeated. Way too much.

[Oldpinkman]

You take it wrong then, which makes the rest of your post a bit if a waste of time.

I'm sorry Martin. Who did you mean by "they"?

[walpurgis]

Perhaps "they" should be 'them'. As in 'them or us'. Because that's what it will boil down to no doubt. Depressing, I know. But big trouble has arrived, with horrific things happening worldwide and I've no reason to doubt that worse will come.

Perhaps the Yanks will finish developing that 'Genetic Bullet' they strenuously deny working on and use the bloody thing.

[Macca]

I'm sorry Martin. Who did you mean by "they"?

The leaders, those with the power and the influence, those people who would only have to stand up and condemn this sort of behaviour. It is part of the nature of Islam that the adherents must listen to these people. They are far too quiet, and on the rare occasion they do condemn such actions it is always with qualification.

As regards the footage I think it does need to be shown in the same way the footage of the Nazi death camps was shown - so every one even the young can see for themselves exactly what we are dealing with so it can never be denied or played down.

[Gazjam]

Such acts as these are intended to prompt a backlash born of fear which is then used as a justification for more horrific actions.

This of course why the media show things the way they do to keep us fearful and stoke the flames of greater conflict. War without end as Orwell had it.

I've had to quit social media and neither watch nor read the news these days, I used to be a news junkie btw. All it does is increase my own sense of powerlessness and make me anxious.

Up till Snowden the level of complicity between media, governent and authority hadn't been clear.
Nowadays, I dont accept anything I see on the media at face value.
There are crazy religious zealots of ALL faiths, and these horrible tragedies can happen, but sometimes theres sometimes more going on than meets the eye.

For instance the horrible murder of Lee Rigby, the guardsman hacked to death recently by two "Islamists" which provoked an anti-Islamic backlash?
One of them was freed from a Kenyan jail by MI5 spies and an attempt was made to recruit him.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30187736
Interesting connection dont you think?

What else is going on, and by whom...and why?

[walpurgis]

Whilst there may be conspiracies (who knows?). I regard conspiracy theories as largely so much 'hot air'.

[Oldpinkman]

The leaders, those with the power and the influence, those people who would only have to stand up and condemn this sort of behaviour. It is part of the nature of Islam that the adherents must listen to these people. They are far too quiet, and on the rare occasion they do condemn such actions it is always with qualification.

As regards the footage I think it does need to be shown in the same way the footage of the Nazi death camps was shown - so every one even the young can see for themselves exactly what we are dealing with so it can never be denied or played down.

“We can’t accept this madness,” said Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Mosque of Paris. “We want to live in peace.” (bloomberg)

[Firebottle]

I can't accept the word 'religion' in any context associated with these sort of atrocities.

The word is extremists, for whatever reasons/experiences or beliefs, these sort of a***holes are extremists.

A religion in my mind always has some compassion towards fellow beings.

These scum are not even worth the cost of a bullet, may they rot in hell, whichever hell is appropriate to their 'beliefs'.

[Spectral Morn]

ITV news confirms that the policeman did beg for his life :(

I know I am focussing on this and not the other deaths, and I don't mean to belittle or marginalise those murders because they are as horrible but it was the policeman I saw murdered and it is his murder that sums this all up for me. I just can't believe man's in humanity to man..... words fail me.

[anthonyTD]

Unfortunately,
These Atrocities [and worse] are going on around the world every day, its just not broadcasted on mainstream news as it doesn’t serve a particular agenda, i also believe that we should be made fully aware of the facts however brutal, only then do we have the right to make a judgement on the crime in its entirety, i don’t get involved in religious discussions as i feel i would never agree with anyone who falls into any particular faith, however, what i will say is; anyone who carries out atrocities like this in the name of a particular religion, and believes whole heartedly in what they have done is for the greater good of said religion, then IMHO they have no place amongst rational thinking people.:(

[Ninanina]

One of the reasons for me having nothing to do with any religion... it ALWAYS causes problems in one way or another :doh:

Plus, of course, I just don't believe :D

[istari_knight]

Three suspects arrested.. Or at least ID'd.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting-three-4938044

[walpurgis]

Hope the police/security forces have a 'shoot to kill' directive.

[Ninanina]

Hope the police/security forces have a 'shoot to kill' directive.

+1

[istari_knight]

Too quick & easy for me. I think our ancestors would have come up with some fitting reprisals like those featured on Billy Connolly's "who do you think you are" where he learnt of the Bibighar massacre whereby 120 British women and children captured by the Sepoy forces were hacked to death and dismembered with meat cleavers... The perpetrators were captured, stripped, forced to clean the congealed blood brains & gore from the scene using only their toungues, smeared in pork fat before being tied to cannons and blown to peices.

Want to play at being barbarians ? Piss us off enough & we'll give you a lesson in barbarism.

[Ali Tait]

I think that's part of the problem - we did just that in the past.

[struth]

It worked though.

[Ali Tait]

Did it? Look what's happening now.

[struth]

Dont Think THE 2 Are Connected Tbh. They were as bad and in many ways worse. With some people's at the time it was the only way. Carrot and stick. Today it is different or should be but some want to remain as the barbarians of the past

[Ali Tait]

People have very long memories, I think there is a connection.

[Oldpinkman]

People have very long memories, I think there is a connection.
Ali I agree. Blood curdling death penalties serve only to satisfy people's need for violence. Robert peel had it right. What matters in crime prevention is the certainty not the severity of the punishment. Detection is the key to prevention.

And retaliation and factionalisation (finding a big external "they" to blame) only fuel conflict and inspire the deranged individuals who want to engage in these barbarous means of conflict.

Through the ages civilisations have indulged in barbaric executions (our own hanging drawing and quartering was no stroll in the park) but they had no deterrent effect. Good intelligence services, effective policing, and inclusive, tolerant societies, rather than divisive, posturing, xenophobic sabre-rattling, provide peace and stability.

[Gordon Steadman]

Ali I agree. Blood curdling death penalties serve only to satisfy people's need for violence. Robert peel had it right. What matters in crime prevention is the certainty not the severity of the punishment. Detection is the key to prevention.

And retaliation and factionalisation (finding a big external "they" to blame) only fuel conflict and inspire the deranged individuals who want to engage in these barbarous means of conflict.

Through the ages civilisations have indulged in barbaric executions (our own hanging drawing and quartering was no stroll in the park) but they had no deterrent effect. Good intelligence services, effective policing, and inclusive, tolerant societies, rather than divisive, posturing, xenophobic sabre-rattling, provide peace and stability.
I think that is all fine if the people you are dealing with have a similar mind set to 'us'.

No amount of understanding or warm feelings for our fellow man is going to deter those who welcome death if its part and parcel of defending their god. Quite why the all powerful needs defending I'm not sure but that is another argument.

[Spectral Morn]

People have very long memories, I think there is a connection.

The crusades are held against us, as is the west being Christian which it isn't and nor where the crusaders truly Christian in my opinion because if they had been they would have not committed the atrocities they did. The history of mankind is a sad reflection of greed, hatred and evil and the crusades is a good example of that, trying to create the conditions for a second coming by killing those in the land at the time, replacing them with Christians rather than the original inhabitants.... How was that going to work? If I continue I would have to get theological so I wont.
Sad mess

[Ali Tait]

Yes indeed, the roots of all this go back a long way.

[Effem]

It has always struck me that whenever the words "free speech" are being uttered, there is usually a recipient that is somehow paying the price for it.

I don't think the western world has quite grasped the notion that lampooning something that is intricately woven into the very fabric of other people's lives can and does cause intense offence, so little wonder that those that do the lampooning suffer the consequences of their actions. This is not to defend the killing of these people in cold blood, but analysing WHY that act took place. The local Cornish Times offices have not been fire bombed or it's journalists shot dead because . . . . . . they have not offended the Muslim world.

My own personal view is that I see little merit in worshipping a deity that I cannot see or make direct contact with, but far be it from me to belittle anyone who has that kind of faith and that applies to any kind of religion. It boils down to simple respect and drawing caricatures and making fun of the Muslim "god" and his prophet simply isn't the way a so-called civilised society should behave.

I think people believe that taking the piss out of politicians, the clergy, royalty, Jesus and God is acceptable these days and there are no repercussions for doing so, then that means they also have the automatic right to do the same for Allah and Mohammed, but are horribly wrong as the events in Paris will bear testimony.

I can only see the situation getting worse with no immediate solution to hand. I understand that launching reprisals serves only to deepen the trench of hatred. My greatest fear though is that it will happen within our borders and "multiculturalism" will come back and bite us savagely.

[walpurgis]

Nobody has the right to put forth a belief, idea or principle without it being open to scrutiny, criticism or even ridicule. Full stop!

[Spectral Morn]

It has always struck me that whenever the words "free speech" are being uttered, there is usually a recipient that is somehow paying the price for it.

I don't think the western world has quite grasped the notion that lampooning something that is intricately woven into the very fabric of other people's lives can and does cause intense offence, so little wonder that those that do the lampooning suffer the consequences of their actions. This is not to defend the killing of these people in cold blood, but analysing WHY that act took place. The local Cornish Times offices have not been fire bombed or it's journalists shot dead because . . . . . . they have not offended the Muslim world.

My own personal view is that I see little merit in worshipping a deity that I cannot see or make direct contact with, but far be it from me to belittle anyone who has that kind of faith and that applies to any kind of religion. It boils down to simple respect and drawing caricatures and making fun of the Muslim "god" and his prophet simply isn't the way a so-called civilised society should behave.

I think people believe that taking the piss out of politicians, the clergy, royalty, Jesus and God is acceptable these days and there are no repercussions for doing so, then that means they also have the automatic right to do the same for Allah and Mohammed, but are horribly wrong as the events in Paris will bear testimony.

I can only see the situation getting worse with no immediate solution to hand. I understand that launching reprisals serves only to deepen the trench of hatred. My greatest fear though is that it will happen within our borders and "multiculturalism" will come back and bite us savagely.

I agree freedom to speak, should be tempered with knowing when not to exercise that right. This is a conversation to be had regarding what happened but I don't think now is the right time in respect for those who were murdered.




Regards Neil

[Effem]

I agree freedom to speak, should be tempered with knowing when not to exercise that right. This is a conversation to be had regarding what happened but I don't think now is the right time in respect for those who were murdered.




Regards Neil

I didn't say I condoned the cold blooded murders of these people Neil, especially the policeman who offered no resistance to these fanatics and played no part whatsoever in ridiculing the Muslim faith, especially so when I understand the policeman to be a Muslim himself. Violence was never the right answer in any dispute,

[Gordon Steadman]

The ability to laugh at oneself should be a basic test of civilised man.

The old expression 'sticks and stone might break my bones but words can never hurt me' is a real truth or should be. Anyone who is prepared to kill another human being because of something they said should be shunned and excluded from society.

I am not often moved to think that there are some who would be better off not here but people like these killers come quite near the top of my list.

[Oldpinkman]

I think that is all fine if the people you are dealing with have a similar mind set to 'us'.

No amount of understanding or warm feelings for our fellow man is going to deter those who welcome death if its part and parcel of defending their god. Quite why the all powerful needs defending I'm not sure but that is another argument.

You miss the point Gordon. I have no empathy for the monsters who perpertrated this act. My concern is that others ("all muslims" "all people who are religious") are linked to them by association, because the monsters have hi-jacked their religion as a grounds to justify the act. All that does is create the "us and them" world the monsters thrive in, and drive decent, frightened people into the security of numbers. People in fear seek refuge in their gang.

It's like being an atheist and being blamed for the atrocities of Stalin. All of them - not just Soviet Russias suppression of Christianity and other religions. (Or Hitler and his Nazi's - who in spite of labelling their party "National Socialist" was as right wing as you can get. No ownership by the people, state ownership and control of economic resources, nor other true "socialist" or left wing aspects to the Nazi party. )

And with regard to stopping monsters from perpetrating these acts, whether they are delusional gunmen in the USA killing more children in a school than died in this attack, or the murderers responsible for this particular outrage - the key to stopping them is the quality of the detection and policing services, not the Hollywood gore nature of the retributions called for.

Elizabeth I survived against all odds, in a world of conspiracies and plots, terrorism, and murder - not because of the guy who lit the bonfire under Cranmer, and certainly not because of the guy who put traitors heads on stakes on Londons bridges, but because of Walsingham and his intelligence network.

The hangings, drawings and quarterings were to entertain the bloodlust of the population, who couldn't afford a ticket for the bearpits.

[Gordon Steadman]

You miss the point Gordon. I have no empathy for the monsters who perpertrated this act. My concern is that others ("all muslims" "all people who are religious") are linked to them by association, because the monsters have hi-jacked their religion as a grounds to justify the act. All that does is create the "us and them" world the monsters thrive in, and drive decent, frightened people into the security of numbers. People in fear seek refuge in their gang.

It's like being an atheist and being blamed for the atrocities of Stalin. All of them - not just Soviet Russias suppression of Christianity and other religions. (Or Hitler and his Nazi's - who in spite of labelling their party "National Socialist" was as right wing as you can get. No ownership by the people, state ownership and control of economic resources, nor other true "socialist" or left wing aspects to the Nazi party. )

And with regard to stopping monsters from perpetrating these acts, whether they are delusional gunmen in the USA killing more children in a school than died in this attack, or the murderers responsible for this particular outrage - the key to stopping them is the quality of the detection and policing services, not the Hollywood gore nature of the retributions called for.

Elizabeth I survived against all odds, in a world of conspiracies and plots, terrorism, and murder - not because of the guy who lit the bonfire under Cranmer, and certainly not because of the guy who put traitors heads on stakes on Londons bridges, but because of Walsingham and his intelligence network.

The hangings, drawings and quarterings were to entertain the bloodlust of the population, who couldn't afford a ticket for the bearpits.
Nope - didn't miss the point at all.

[Spectral Morn]

I didn't say I condoned the cold blooded murders of these people Neil, especially the policeman who offered no resistance to these fanatics and played no part whatsoever in ridiculing the Muslim faith, especially so when I understand the policeman to be a Muslim himself. Violence was never the right answer in any dispute,

I didn't think you did Frank. I just feel that the debate about the exercise of freedom of speech and the French journalists right to or responsibility not to should be debated but maybe now isn't the time.


Regards Neil

[synsei]

Such acts as these are intended to prompt a backlash born of fear which is then used as a justification for more horrific actions.

This of course why the media show things the way they do to keep us fearful and stoke the flames of greater conflict. War without end as Orwell had it.

I've had to quit social media and neither watch nor read the news these days, I used to be a news junkie btw. All it does is increase my own sense of powerlessness and make me anxious.

Nail on the head Rich, and let's not kid ourselves that our government and others in the West are innocent in all this either. Violence begets violence, atrocities spurn further atrocities, and so the cycle continues. News media output is tightly controlled by vested interests, spin is the order of the day and it is designed to play to the lowest common denominator. In the meantime those same vested interests make a 'killing' financially by supplying arms and logistical support to all and sundry. 'Intelligence' is another useful commodity for these people to bandy about, after all worldwide political and social instability generates even more money for them.

[Macca]

. (Or Hitler and his Nazi's - who in spite of labelling their party "National Socialist" was as right wing as you can get. No ownership by the people, state ownership and control of economic resources, nor other true "socialist" or left wing aspects to the Nazi party. )

.


Right wing - small state, rights of the individual take precedence,state exisits to serve the individual

left Wing - large state, individual's rights subservient to those of the state, individuals exist to serve the state.

How you can make out that the Nazis were right wing is beyond me. The rights of the individual were totally subsumed by the Nazi state.

[Spectral Morn]

We should pause for a moment and take note that a French police woman was shot dead - in a possibly related incident. Note I say maybe related, its not clear yet if this is directly linked or others taking up the baton, or a crime gone wrong. Regardless another family are plunged into terrible loss and grief. A municipal worker was also shot in this incident - earlier today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30721677


Regards Neil

[synsei]

We should pause for a moment and take note that a French police woman was shot dead - in a possibly related incident. Note I say maybe related, its not clear yet if this is directly linked or others taking up the baton, or a crime gone wrong. Regardless another family are plunged into terrible loss and grief. A municipal worker was also shot in this incident - earlier today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30721677


Regards Neil

Not meaning to sound callous here Neil but the various 'sharks' which swim in this particular ocean would regard these deaths as 'collateral damage', a risk which has been demonstrated time and again that they are willing to take. There is blame to be apportioned on all sides however it is the ordinary men and women on the street who end up paying dearly, in every possible way.

I wish I had the answer to all this but frankly I don't, although a meaningful peace settlement between Israel and the various Palestinian interests may go some way towards bringing the pan off the boil. Not that that is likely all the while various US administrations turn a blind eye whenever Israel pushes things too far.

[Oldpinkman]

Right wing - small state, rights of the individual take precedence,state exisits to serve the individual

left Wing - large state, individual's rights subservient to those of the state, individuals exist to serve the state.

How you can make out that the Nazis were right wing is beyond me. The rights of the individual were totally subsumed by the Nazi state.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

I think, generally, the term is understood differently from your definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_politics

By your definition there could never be a right wing dictatorship, since right wing is more akin to a Masonic Grail quest.

[Marco]

Guys, can we please make sure that this thread doesn’t become overly political (in a wider sense), and the discussion sticks solely to the thread topic? I can sense some niggling in opposing opinions/political stances, and eventually that’s only going to end one way…

Ta! :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Folks lets keep light in this discussion and no heat. Lets not slide into any kind of acrimony, so civility at all times please.

Just a pre-emptive note, not aimed at any one.


Regards Neil

PS I see Marco has beat me to it.

[synsei]

It is almost impossible to discuss this incident without putting it into context, and that context resides with the Middle Eastern troubles. However I will refrain from commenting further if the bigger picture leads to offense being taken.

[Macca]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

I think, generally, the term is understood differently from your definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_politics

By your definition there could never be a right wing dictatorship, since right wing is more akin to a Masonic Grail quest.

Wikipedia gives the 'general consensus' - which is meaningless. You'll also note that the reference given for that definition is 'The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia' - never heard of it.

There can be such a thing as a right wing dictorship - the absence of so called democratic elections does not automatically mean that there cannot be a small state that is subservient to the rights of the individual, or that individuals cannot/do not have rights in a non-democratic state.

As for making words mean what we want them to mean this is a favourite trick of the left. Check out the Frankfurt School on Wikipedia. You may have noticed recently that the definition of the word 'marriage' has been changed....

It is understandably hard for left wingers to accept that the likes of Hitler and Stalin could be left wing. They don't like to think that those are the practical results of socialism in action. Likewise it sticks in their craw to think anyone who is left wing could also be racist - hence racism is always branded as 'right wing'. According to the BBC the National Front is 'right wing' despite the fact that they are proponents of a planned economy (amongst many other left wing ideas).

Consequently we have the commonplace but misguided concept that left wing = good and right wing = bad despite the facts of political history teaching us exactly the opposite.

[Spectral Morn]

It is almost impossible to discuss this incident without putting it into context, and that context resides with the Middle Eastern troubles. However I will refrain from commenting further if the bigger picture leads to offense being taken.

I want to discuss the wider/core issues and my own views about them but as I know some will take offence, it may create heat and derision so I am not going to.

[Marco]

Dave,

Now you know why these types of topics being discussed aren’t particularly welcome, for the very reasons you state, as when they start to stray into the ‘broader political picture’, as it were, opposing sensibilities will inevitably clash - and that’s when the problems start! ;)

Therefore, as what you say is quite true (in terms of not being able to discuss one thing, without it leading to another), then it might just be best to close the thread now and leave it there.

Marco.

[synsei]

Not my thread btw ;)

[Macca]

I want to discuss the wider/core issues and my own views about them but as I know some will take offence, it may create heat and derision so I am not going to.

This may be why we have the problems we do; people afraid to speak their minds?

[Spectral Morn]

This may be why we have the problems we do; people afraid to speak their minds?

I agree and while I have the freedom to write it all out, I think it better I don't.

[Gordon Steadman]

Not to make light of the situation but my wife has just suggested that Sharia law should be applied to these two. As they have just robbed a petrol station, that would mean cutting a hand off and then being stoned to death.

I'm just not sure where the two systems could meet in peace, they seem mutually incompatible. I wish there was an obvious answer.

[Effem]

Not to make light of the situation but my wife has just suggested that Sharia law should be applied to these two. As they have just robbed a petrol station, that would mean cutting a hand off and then being stoned to death.

I'm just not sure where the two systems could meet in peace, they seem mutually incompatible. I wish there was an obvious answer.

My understanding too is that while it is fine in their minds to wage war on the infidels, muslim shall not kill muslim, which the police officer was. So why too are Shiites and Sunnis always at odds with each other when they should be brethren?

Maybe we should let them have their "Islamic State" like the jewish people were allocated Israel. Then at least they will be in one place and far easier to nuke when they misbehave (tongue in cheek mode - ON).

[Oldpinkman]

Not to make light of the situation but my wife has just suggested that Sharia law should be applied to these two. As they have just robbed a petrol station, that would mean cutting a hand off and then being stoned to death.

I'm just not sure where the two systems could meet in peace, they seem mutually incompatible. I wish there was an obvious answer.

And what difference will that make to the dead policeman? There is nothing any of us can do for the victims of this atrocity or their families. Any more than we can do anything to bring back the children slaughtered by gunmen in the USA in their schools. We can try to prevent these things happening to others. We can't undo the atrocity that has happened. The only constructive thing we can do is to attempt to thwart the next atrocity.

A focus on intelligence services and policing is the most practical and direct method. Avoiding stoking racial and religious hatred by defining the problem in convenient "us" and "them" is equally important.

That was my issue with Macca - not semantics about definitions of left and right wing (I probably got this wrong, but I am sufficiently paranoid to assume he meant me as "most left-wingers". As one usually described as " a first child of Maggie" by my friends on facebook, that bought a smile in spite of the sad background to the discussion).

My issue was with "They" and "Them" . It is an unhelpful, non-specific response. "They shouldn't let it happen". Who?

Apparantly the "They" who need to do something about it is the muslim leadership responsible. That will be minority fanatic clerics despised by the mainstream muslim community, and intent on fomenting religious hatred, so pretty unlikely to follow the well meaning suggestion that "They" should do something about it. If "They" means more general muslim leaders "They" have no more ability to influence these people than I do to influence Kim Jong Un.

Look at what mainstream Muslims reaction has been (source Bloomberg)

“We can’t accept this madness,” Dalil Boubakeur, the Paris Mosque’s rector, said yesterday. “We want to live in peace.”

Al-Azhar, the thousand-year-old seat of religious learning in Cairo that’s respected by Muslims around the world, referred to the attack as a criminal act, saying that “Islam denounces any violence,” according to Egypt’s state news agency MENA.

* The Organization of the Islamic Conference strongly condemned the attack. A spokesperson for the OIC’s Islamophobia Observatory in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia said that violence and radicalism are “biggest enemies of Islam.”

* The French Council of the Muslim Religion condemned the “barbaric” attack and said that first thoughts are with the victims and their families. It also called on “all those committed to the values of the Republic and democracy to avoid provocations that only serve to throw oil on the fire,” and on French Muslims to “exercise the utmost vigilance against possible manipulations from extremist groups.”

By making this about Islam and not about minority fanatics abusing that religion, - by making "them" responsible and failing to clearly define "them", you create an environment of fear and prejudice, which will result in another brick going through the window of my mate Abu's house, when all he does is run the best Indian restaurants for miles, and bring up 3 lovely kids in a peaceful caring way. He was just islamic enough not to have a drink on my stag night during ramadan, but not so islamic as to never have a beer (or two). Nobody lobbing bricks will make that distinction. He will be responsible for an atrocity in Paris. :(

[Marco]

That was my issue with Macca - not semantics about definitions of left and right wing (I probably got this wrong, but I am sufficiently paranoid to assume he meant me as "most left-wingers". As one usually described as " a first child of Maggie" by my friends on facebook, that bought a smile in spite of the sad background to the discussion).


*That* is specifically what I don’t want to see creep into the discussion, and what won’t be allowed: any of this left or right wing (which way do you ‘lean’) bullshite… If you can keep that pish out of it, chaps, and stick STRICTLY to the topic of the thread, then the thread will be kept open :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

*That* is specifically what I don’t want to see creep into the discussion, and what won’t be allowed: any of this left or right wing (which way do you ‘lean’) bullshite… If you can keep that pish out of it, chaps, and stick STRICTLY to the topic of the thread, then the thread will be kept open :)

Marco.
Yes. Understood Marco. However, to clarify, I take no offence at anything Martin has written, and am quite happy that he and I are capable of discussing this robustly without resorting to handbags in the car park ;)

[Marco]

Yup, I’d agree with that, so in that respect some leniency will be shown. Be prepared, however, that if I see any further references to that kind of thing, and it dominating the discussion, it’ll be removed, as I have less than ZERO interest in knowing what anyone’s political leanings are! ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

We weren't discussing our own political leanings, we were arguing semantics.

[Marco]

Lol… Very good, just keep Maggie & Co, and whether you ‘dress’ to the left or the right out of it, and you’ll be fine! ;)

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

And what difference will that make to the dead policeman? There is nothing any of us can do for the victims of this atrocity or their families. Any more than we can do anything to bring back the children slaughtered by gunmen in the USA in their schools. We can try to prevent these things happening to others. We can't undo the atrocity that has happened. The only constructive thing we can do is to attempt to thwart the next atrocity.


Yes that of course, is all fine and reasonable. However, we are faced with an act that has already been committed not just trying to stop the next one.

What is the suggestion for how we treat the murderers if they are, unlikely though it may be, captured alive?

[The Black Adder]

I wish this world had a 'reset' button.

[Firebottle]

.......by making this about Islam and not about minority fanatics abusing that religion, (

This surely is the core definition of the problem: ''minority fanatics abusing (whatever) religion''

Lets stick to the truth that these perpetrators are fanatics/extremists/terrorists/...bastards...well? it's plain to see.
Islam, as in most faiths, is a tolerant set of codes, lets divorce the word 'religion' from these incidents.

Alan

[walpurgis]

I wish this world had a 'reset' button.

It does. But the results are not good. It's the one marked 'World War'. :eek:

[Oldpinkman]

Yes that of course, is all fine and reasonable. However, we are faced with an act that has already been committed not just trying to stop the next one.

What is the suggestion for how we treat the murderers if they are, unlikely though it may be, captured alive?

I'm not proposing they be issued with a pink slip, or made to stand in the corner. All I'm saying is that in the final analysis the nature of the punishment will be irrelevant. It is the fact of it that matters. In this country we give life sentences, and sometimes less. In America they have lethal injection. I haven't noted that the USA is particularly less violent as a result of the severity of that punishment. How many New York cops shot already in 2015? How many British ones? (We're only a little island so we can extend to beyond the capital).

France doesn't have a death penalty, so the reality is that if they are caught the sentence will not be one of the spectacular ones being proposed. What matters is that they are caught. If they get away, the nature of the punishment they might have suffered is completely irrelevant.

FWIW I have confused feelings about the death penalty in situations like this. I resent paying to keep them alive and feeding them, but there is always the issue of miscarriages of justice - when you get the wrong man. And as I say - the nature of the punishment is essentially irrelevant from a deterrence perspective. So why fuss about it? Catch the bastards!

[Tarzan]

Yup, I’d agree with that, so in that respect some leniency will be shown. Be prepared, however, that if I see any further references to that kind of thing, and it dominating the discussion, it’ll be removed, as I have less than ZERO interest in knowing what anyone’s political leanings are! ;)

Marco.


unless they are Marco's of course.:lol::ner:

[Marco]

Lol! Apart from Scotland (eventually) gaining independence, I don’t have any, as I think ALL politicians are self-serving TWATS! :exactly:

Marco.

[synsei]

That is still a political stance though Marco as seeking independence from an existing country is a political act in itself. If you truly do not give a shite about ANY politician then in actuality you should have no opinion on the matter :ner: :D

[Gordon Steadman]

I'm not proposing they be issued with a pink slip, or made to stand in the corner. All I'm saying is that in the final analysis the nature of the punishment will be irrelevant. It is the fact of it that matters. In this country we give life sentences, and sometimes less. In America they have lethal injection. I haven't noted that the USA is particularly less violent as a result of the severity of that punishment. How many New York cops shot already in 2015? How many British ones? (We're only a little island so we can extend to beyond the capital).

France doesn't have a death penalty, so the reality is that if they are caught the sentence will not be one of the spectacular ones being proposed. What matters is that they are caught. If they get away, the nature of the punishment they might have suffered is completely irrelevant.

FWIW I have confused feelings about the death penalty in situations like this. I resent paying to keep them alive and feeding them, but there is always the issue of miscarriages of justice - when you get the wrong man. And as I say - the nature of the punishment is essentially irrelevant from a deterrence perspective. So why fuss about it? Catch the bastards!

This means the problem will never go away and all the time will be spent just trying to stop the next inevitable attack. I'm not suggesting what a solution might be as, I'm not sure there is one unless it is denying the west their right to free speech (ish). I see that Choudray has just denied there is such a thing but only obedience to the word of Allah.

[Marco]

That is still a political stance though Marco as seeking independence from an existing country is a political act in itself. If you truly do not give a shite about ANY politician then in actuality you should have no opinion on the matter :ner: :D

Indeed. However, for me it’s the cause itself that matters, not who’s representing it. For example, I take the stance that I do on Scottish independence without being an SNP voter, and nor was I a fan of Alex Salmond.

I couldn’t even tell you the name of any of the current SNP party, or for that matter, those in any other political party (save some of the leaders).

I rarely watch the national news, never buy newspapers, and so in general I just find politics snooze-worthy in the extreme, especially because we’ve distanced ourselves as far as possible from ‘the system’, by creating our own ‘little island’, as it were, and therefore very few policies directly or significantly affect our lifestyle.

Anyway, let’s get back on topic! :)

Marco.

[Tarzan]

Indeed. However, for me it’s the cause itself that matters, not who’s representing it. For example, I take the stance that I do on Scottish independence without being an SNP voter, and nor was I a fan of Alex Salmond.

I couldn’t even tell you the name of any of the current SNP party, or for that matter, those in any other political party (save some of the leaders).

I rarely watch the national news, never buy newspapers, and so in general I just find politics snooze-worthy in the extreme, especially because we’ve distanced ourselves as far as possible from ‘the system’, by creating our own ‘little island’, as it were, and therefore very few policies directly or significantly affect our lifestyle.

Anyway, let’s get back on topic! :)

Marco.


Or change the subject.:lol:

[Marco]

The only reason I want to change the subject, daftee, is because what we’re talking about has got nothing to do with the thread topic.

Marco.

[Tarzan]

The only reason I want to change the subject, daftee, is because what we’re talking about has got nothing to do with the thread topic.

Marco.

:)

[worrasf]

Hope the police/security forces have a 'shoot to kill' directive.

Actually, I'd prefer a "shoot to maim with extreme daily pain for the rest of their miserable F'ing lives" directive. Death will only make more martyrs but it's difficult to be a functioning blind terrorist with no hands. Oh and ship out of France so ongoing costs not borne by the French public. But I have no strong opinions on this.

[walpurgis]

I have no strong opinions on this.

Nor do I.

But I suppose somebody with strong feelings could have these addressed by hanging the deserving up by the ankles and letting whoever have a go at them for an hour with an electric carving knife.

Not that I'd advocate something like that, being a pacifist.

[Spectral Morn]

Second terrorist attack on going in Paris right now. Gunman has attacked a Jewish supermarket and French policemen have him cornered, there are numerous hostages.

Awful days for France


Neil :(

[walpurgis]

Awful days for France


Neil :(

I don't see things improving. Recent and ongoing events will just encourage the more brazen fanatics. And of course the inevitable backlash will escalate and propel things along. We will see the like occurring more across Europe and here in the UK no doubt.

[Spectral Morn]

I don't see things improving. Recent and ongoing events will just encourage the more brazen fanatics. And of course the inevitable backlash will escalate and propel things along. We will see the like occurring more across Europe and here in the UK no doubt.

I hope you are wrong because that plays into the terrorists hands but sadly I think you are right :(



Regards Neil

[struth]

have to say the world is fast becoming a busted flush:(

[Macca]

have to say the world is fast becoming a busted flush:(

Was there ever a time when it wasn't?

Within living memory there was a global war that killed tens of millions. Things may not be perfect, and never will, but they are still better than they were just 70 years ago.

Still, if this sort of thing is going to become more commonplace in the West then it might be time to reconsider the gun control laws so that we can at least shoot back if it happens to us....

[worrasf]

time to reconsider the gun control laws so that we can at least shoot back if it happens to us....

Funny you should mention this. Was musing on same thing - up until the change in law I had a licence to keep a Glock 9mm and a S & W 38 revolver - really nice weapons. Had 2 secure cabinets in my loft for them and ammunition.

Had them for several years for target shooting at my local gun club in Leeds at the time. Very relaxing and great fun. Was really sad when they had to go. Was amazed at total lack of professionalism when I handed them in to my local police station. Chap on duty hadn't a clue how to handle them and put them in a standard grey filing cabinet :eek:

I hope they weren't trashed (like they were supposed to be) but found there way into the armed forces to be useful.

Steve

[Spectral Morn]

Looks like the siege at the printing works is ending, explosions and repeated gun fire. Printing firms roof is showing signs of fire inside, smoke rising above it.

I hope the hostage is ok


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

France 24 reporting gun fire and explosions at the Jewish supermarket looks like the police have gone in there too :(

[Spectral Morn]

Hostage at print works escaped, one special police man injured, both terrorists dead. According to AFP and France 24

[Spectral Morn]

Two officers injured in Paris, terrorist killed, at least four hostages freed.

[struth]

Good!

[Spectral Morn]

Good!

News is very confused re Paris, suggestions that some hostages have died.

[Spectral Morn]

Four hostages in Paris confirmed dead :( terrible news.

Looks like 11 were freed, I just counted that number fleeing from the front of the supermarket as the assault began - footage on France24

[Markiii]

hope they shot the fucker somewhere its slow and painful

[walpurgis]

Hostage at print works escaped, one special police man injured, both terrorists dead. According to AFP and France 24

Good! They can go in a skip with all the other rubbish. Saves wasting time & money on trials and imprisonment. Bastards.

[struth]

hope they shot the fucker somewhere its slow and painful

yeah! buckwheats

shame re hostages but it is a difficult task when there are so many.

[worrasf]

Kudos and respect to French police and special forces for going in fast and hard and not fucking about with chit chat - can't negotiate with psychopaths - a tragedy for 4 hostages but could have ended so much worse

[worrasf]

FFS! These guys really are looking to start a war! Sadly I suspect they will get what they wish for "we" just can't sit back and accept this shit any longer and I speak as a parent whose eldest step son is about to start basic training in Royal Artillery forward recon - he will be deployed in harms way !

[struth]

Sometimes think the superpowers should come together on this but alas that will never happen.....shame as that is what is needed.

[worrasf]

To cap it all just heard my gran passed away earlier today

[walpurgis]

Sorry to hear that Stephen.

[worrasf]

Thanks - she was 101 so a pretty good innings as they say

[Ninanina]

Sorry to hear of your sad news Stephen... even though 101 is quite a superb age..

[Ninanina]

Good! They can go in a skip with all the other rubbish. Saves wasting time & money on trials and imprisonment. Bastards.

I am so glad they got them and as you say it saves all the wasted time and money on trials etc.. they will not be missed :)

[Spectral Morn]

To cap it all just heard my gran passed away earlier today

I am very sorry to hear that.


Regards and best wishes

Neil

[struth]

Thanks - she was 101 so a pretty good innings as they say

Sorry to hear that Stephen. A fantastic age but it is still sad.
regards Grant.

[Andrei]

Thanks - she was 101 so a pretty good innings as they say
A very good innings! Glad you take some comfort in that. She would have seen out WWII and later the end of the century, and still going strong. :respect:

[Ninanina]

Even better news that Abu Hamza (hooky!!) has been found guilty of terrorism and jailed for life in the US.. at last... what a complete b*****d... :D

We are 'mopping' them up gradually... about time.. :)

[struth]

Noticed that Bez. all to the good, although the US will no doubt suffer some retaliation, as might we. Thus I hope the security services double their efforts. We dont get much up here tbh but the big cities are the easier targets.

[Ninanina]

Noticed that Bez

That's close enough .... :lol::lol:

[struth]

...sorry, should read Baz :eyebrows::rfl:

[Ninanina]

...sorry, should read Baz :eyebrows::rfl:

Bev will do ... :doh::doh:

[struth]

BEV it is and always was .....just a little naughty spirit toying with me....:)

[Ninanina]

BEV it is and always was .....just a little naughty spirit toying with me....:)

:eek::eek: :rfl:

[walpurgis]

We are 'mopping' them up gradually... about time.. :)

Bev. Bear in mind that there are probably willing replacements queueing up to have a go.

We're not talking about 'regular' psychopathic loonies. These gits think it's their duty and destiny. It will keep getting worse at an accelerating pace in my opinion. I predict, there'll only be one outcome. That will be fascist governments voted in across Europe and all the grief that will cause. Just wait and see what's happening in five or ten years.

[struth]

Bev. Bear in mind that there are probably willing replacements queueing up to have a go.

We're not talking about 'regular' psychopathic loonies. These gits think it's their duty and destiny. It will keep getting worse at an accelerating pace in my opinion. I predict, there'll only be one outcome. That will be fascist governments voted in across Europe and all the grief that will cause. Just wait and see what's happening in five or ten years.

Inevitable I think alas.:( Fortunately I am unlikely to be around.

[Ninanina]

Bev. Bear in mind that there are probably willing replacements queueing up to have a go.

We're not talking about 'regular' psychopathic loonies. These gits think it's their duty and destiny. It will keep getting worse at an accelerating pace in my opinion. I predict, there'll only be one outcome. That will be fascist governments voted in across Europe and all the grief that will cause. Just wait and see what's happening in five or ten years.

I have no idea what is going to happen in the future I just know that getting rid of the c**p like Abu Hamza is a good thing, even if it's short term..;)

Let's not forget that Abu Hamza used to be on the streets of London saying things AGAINST the UK people, the very people that he was quite willing to take a load of hand-outs from.. makes me mad:steam:... don't get me started... :doh:

[Ninanina]

Let us not forget that Abu Hamza lived in a five-bedroom house, in London, worth £1.25million which was funded by the taxpayer and he received £650 a week in state benefits... we must be mad to have allowed it... what is wrong with us ? A. We are just far too soft and don't know how to look after our own people...it's a real shame :(

[Canetoad]

I'm not proposing they be issued with a pink slip, or made to stand in the corner. All I'm saying is that in the final analysis the nature of the punishment will be irrelevant. It is the fact of it that matters. In this country we give life sentences, and sometimes less. In America they have lethal injection. I haven't noted that the USA is particularly less violent as a result of the severity of that punishment. How many New York cops shot already in 2015? How many British ones? (We're only a little island so we can extend to beyond the capital).

France doesn't have a death penalty, so the reality is that if they are caught the sentence will not be one of the spectacular ones being proposed. What matters is that they are caught. If they get away, the nature of the punishment they might have suffered is completely irrelevant.

FWIW I have confused feelings about the death penalty in situations like this. I resent paying to keep them alive and feeding them, but there is always the issue of miscarriages of justice - when you get the wrong man. And as I say - the nature of the punishment is essentially irrelevant from a deterrence perspective. So why fuss about it? Catch the bastards!

That's why assassinating them on-site is such a good choice. It takes away the need to think about these things...

[Ninanina]

That's why assassinating them on-site is such a good choice. It takes away the need to think about these things...

+1

[worrasf]

That's why assassinating them on-site is such a good choice. It takes away the need to think about these things...

+2

[Spectral Morn]

Which gives them and their followers exactly what they want martyrs to the cause. Much better they had been caught (if possible), tried and put in a very dark hole for the rest of their lives.

I think on the balance of what the media is reporting - more facts will come out in time - the French authorities did about as good a job as they could have yesterday, no hostages killed or injured by the teams that went in - miracle and excellent training. The media is reporting that the four hostages in the supermarket seige were killed at the beginning of the incident, not during the ending of the siege - still a terrible thing to have happened.

[struth]

The hunt for Hayat Boumeddiene continues. she looks to be a right cold bitch.

[hifi_dave]

I haven't read or seen on the tV, how did she escape ? Did she just run out with the hostages ?

[struth]

she was apparently with him when the policewoman was murdered but not when he took the supermarket which he had boobytrapped by the way . they must have separated so she could get away while attention was on him. sounds familiar tbh, this tactic has been used before.

[Spectral Morn]

she was apparently with him when the policewoman was murdered but not when he took the supermarket which he had boobytrapped by the way . they must have separated so she could get away while attention was on him. sounds familiar tbh, this tactic has been used before.

So its confirmed the super market was boobytrapped ? When I left for work this am that was only speculation. What can one say...........

Hopefully they will catch the woman, before she does anything.

[struth]

as an aside to this, a 10 year old girl had explosives wrapped wound her body and exploded killing 19 I think in Nigeria in another likely Moslim attack. It beggars belief that these people would use a 10 year old as a weapon. It really is a sad world we live in at times.

[Ninanina]

I love the French people.. they are very proud people, they have come out in force, in their hundreds of thousands, and marched today against the terrible things that have happened to their own people over the last few days, and they are to be commended for that ;)

In complete contrast what did the British people do after the 7th July 2005 attacks on the London underground and London buses, in which 52 civilians were killed and over 700 more were injured? pretty much nothing !!..

We should learn from the French people and start to react in the same manner against this type of attack...;)

[walpurgis]

We should learn from the French people and start to react in the same manner against this type of attack...;)

The French are more expressive than the Brits. I should know, I'm half French myself. Although strangely, I'm one of the least expressive and most unflappable people around (unless somebody seriously pisses me off).

[Ninanina]

The French are more expressive than the Brits. I should know, I'm half French myself. Although strangely, I'm one of the least expressive and unflappable people around (unless somebody seriously pisses me off).
I take it as the French people being more patriotic than us Brits... I had a house in France some years ago so I know a few French people and I love them to bits.. :)

[struth]

Prefer them as a people to a country if that makes sense and of course us Scots have always had a special relationship with them

[Canetoad]

The hunt for Hayat Boumeddiene continues. she looks to be a right cold bitch.

She will be!

Killing them makes them martyrs. Putting them in prison shows us to be weak (by their standards we'd be beheaded) and they use that for political mileage too. I say zero tolerance is the only position to take.

Did terrorism work for the IRA? Did it work for the PLO? Sure they got noticed but, eventually, they both turned to diplomacy and probably accomplished more in the end. The way I see it these extremists are all psychopaths and, as such, are just looking for justification for their need to kill.

[walpurgis]

She will be!

You could be right. At least if apprehended in France she'd stay alive. If she's in the middle east or one of the north African states, she's likely to be betrayed for a price and located. Then I wouldn't bet on her staying alive too long.

[Ninanina]

Apparently she is now in Syria so not much chance of apprehending her now... what a shame :(

[CageyH]

All I have to say on this is:


Je Suis Charlie

[struth]

No, I am.:) ....WE ALL ARE:peace: