View Full Version : John Wood Audio, a tale of woe
Eagle owl
12-09-2014, 17:10
Before I tell my tale I would like to say that Marco has given his permission.
I contacted Mr John Wood on November 26th 2012 and he agreed to build me a valve integrated amplifier, with remote volume control for £1,300.00 inclusive of delivery to my home and said it would be ready in one month.
The amplifier was eventually delivered to me on February 22nd 2013, it should have been supplied with a remote control, an electrical mains cable, instructions on how to use it and a receipt but these items were not in the box. On contacting Mr Wood he told me he'd put them in a separate package attached to the box containing the amplifier which seemed strange to me as there was sufficient room in the amplifier box. Also, the delivery label on the box stated 'Item 1 of 1' which indicated to me there was no separate package.
I found a spare mains cable at home so was able to start using the amplifier, however it was faulty, in that it gave off a humming/buzzing sound which was not loud but could be heard during quiet passages of music or when listening at low volume. I contacted Mr Wood and told him and confirmed it should be silent. As the amplifier was faulty I asked him to arrange collection of the amplifier, repair it and return it to me at his expense but he refused and said I must foot the bill. At this time I asked him for a refund but he refused.
I took Mr Wood to court and the court found in my favour because he'd ignored the documents sent to him relating to the case. Mr Wood then applied for the judgement to be set aside, he was successful and a new hearing was scheduled for January 17th 2014 at Nottingham County Court. At this I applied for the hearing to be transferred to Eastbourne County Court and was successful, the hearing was then rescheduled for March 13th 2014 at Eastbourne County Court.
I attended the hearing but Mr Wood didn't show up. He did however submit a statement signed by a solicitor and included in that statement was the following.
The Defendant is aware of the Claiment in so much as he had previously requested me to provide him with a "previously owned" Valve Audio Amplifier which I did in December 2012.
It is the case that the amplifier was sold to Mr T***** on an "as seen" basis.
When I first placed the order for the amplifier with Mr Wood it was done over the phone and followed up with an email which said the following.
"Hello John, further to our telephone conversation this afternoon please build and supply one integrated valve amplifier with remote volume control and 75 watts rms per channel at the quoted price of £1,300.00 inclusive of the valves and delivery to my home in Eastbourne, East Sussex.
Luckily for me I'd kept this email on my computer together with his reply thanking me for the order and submitted a copy to the court thus proving Mr Wood to be substantially incorrect. His application for the original judgement to be set aside was dismissed and the court found in my favour again.
At this moment in time (September 12th 2014) Mr Wood owes me £1,480.00 which is the cost of the amplifier plus my expenses but he hasn't paid. I just want him to do the honourable thing by paying up and arranging for collection of the faulty amplifier.
The bailiff has visited Mr Wood's premises multiple times but has been unable to make contact.
Before I tell my tale I would like to say that Marco has given his permission.
I contacted Mr John Wood on November 26th 2012 and he agreed to build me a valve integrated amplifier, with remote volume control for £1,300.00 inclusive of delivery to my home and said it would be ready in one month.
The amplifier was eventually delivered to me on February 22nd 2013, it should have been supplied with a remote control, an electrical mains cable, instructions on how to use it and a receipt but these items were not in the box. On contacting Mr Wood he told me he'd put them in a separate package attached to the box containing the amplifier which seemed strange to me as there was sufficient room in the amplifier box. Also, the delivery label on the box stated 'Item 1 of 1' which indicated to me there was no separate package.
I found a spare mains cable at home so was able to start using the amplifier, however it was faulty, in that it gave off a humming/buzzing sound which was not loud but could be heard during quiet passages of music or when listening at low volume. I contacted Mr Wood and told him and confirmed it should be silent. As the amplifier was faulty I asked him to arrange collection of the amplifier, repair it and return it to me at his expense but he refused and said I must foot the bill. At this time I asked him for a refund but he refused.
I took Mr Wood to court and the court found in my favour because he'd ignored the documents sent to him relating to the case. Mr Wood then applied for the judgement to be set aside, he was successful and a new hearing was scheduled for January 17th 2014 at Nottingham County Court. At this I applied for the hearing to be transferred to Eastbourne County Court and was successful, the hearing was then rescheduled for March 13th 2014 at Eastbourne County Court.
I attended the hearing but Mr Wood didn't show up. He did however submit a statement signed by a solicitor and included in that statement was the following.
The Defendant is aware of the Claiment in so much as he had previously requested me to provide him with a "previously owned" Valve Audio Amplifier which I did in December 2012.
It is the case that the amplifier was sold to Mr T***** on an "as seen" basis.
When I first placed the order for the amplifier with Mr Wood it was done over the phone and followed up with an email which said the following.
"Hello John, further to our telephone conversation this afternoon please build and supply one integrated valve amplifier with remote volume control and 75 watts rms per channel at the quoted price of £1,300.00 inclusive of the valves and delivery to my home in Eastbourne, East Sussex.
Luckily for me I'd kept this email on my computer together with his reply thanking me for the order and submitted a copy to the court thus proving Mr Wood to be substantially incorrect. His application for the original judgement to be set aside was dismissed and the court found in my favour again.
At this moment in time (September 12th 2014) Mr Wood owes me £1,480.00 which is the cost of the amplifier plus my expenses but he hasn't paid. I just want him to do the honourable thing by paying up and arranging for collection of the faulty amplifier.
The bailiff has visited Mr Wood's premises multiple times but has been unable to make contact.
Then the man is an idiot because a substantial charge for every visit by a bailiff will be added to what he owes via the judgement... :doh:
I hope this is resolved soon Goff...
If the bailiff has made "several attempts" to see this chap without success, then this is nothing unusual. Bailiffs are salaried by the court service and there is not a lot of incentive for them to get results. Contrast the Sheriffs Officer who gets paid on results. As far as I know you can only instruct the Sheriff if the judgment is a high court judgment, a ccj can be transferred to the high court for enforcement purposes (has to be over £600)
What a bailiff should do if he finally gets to see the debtor is take walking possession of goods to the value of the debt to give the debtor time to pay. If he does not pay then the goods will be removed to auction and sold. Problem 1. The bailiff is likely to be fobbed off with the debtor saying all the stuff in here is owned by my partner/wife/son/daughter/dog/cat etc. He may also say that it is on HP or some other terms that means he does not own it until it all paid for. He should produce documents to confirm this, but some bailiffs give far too much rope).
Problem 2. The bailiff has to assess whether or not the goods that "may" be the subject of walking possession are sufficient to satisfy the debt after the costs of removal and sale. If in the bailiffs opinion the costs of removal and sale would be minimal, then he will return the warrant endorsed "N/E" No Effects on Which to Levy". End of warrant and your court fee down the drain.
Problem 3. If goods are taken to auction it is a lottery as to who is there and how much they bid. There will be no reserve. Goods estimated to make £500 may only make £50, so £50 off your debt and you are left to whistle for the rest - or take some other form of enforcement. If he owns his own house, you could apply for a charging order securing your debt against his house. Unless you tried to force a sale through the court earlier (not straightforward), you would not see your money until the property is sold.
There are other things you can do and you may already be aware of all I have written above and more. Google is your friend. I was a lawyer for 30 years and worked in the court service for 12 years before that, so I speak from experience.
killie99
12-09-2014, 21:58
Whilst Rob has pointed out the pitfalls to Geoff even though he has won the case, the damage to Mr Wood's business, I suspect, will be pretty substantial as this isn't the only place this has been posted. A disagreement with a customer over a fairly minor amount of money can have substantial consequences and if Mr Woods is folly enough to see it through court, lose and still not pay up, then frankly he deserves all he gets. Unfortunately for Geoff it's his loss that will stop others ending up with the same fate.
I’ve also invited Mr Wood to comment and put his side of the story and/or refute any claims made by Geoff. We shall see if he takes up my offer….
Marco.
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 05:39
If the bailiff has made "several attempts" to see this chap without success, then this is nothing unusual. Bailiffs are salaried by the court service and there is not a lot of incentive for them to get results. Contrast the Sheriffs Officer who gets paid on results. As far as I know you can only instruct the Sheriff if the judgment is a high court judgment, a ccj can be transferred to the high court for enforcement purposes (has to be over £600)
What a bailiff should do if he finally gets to see the debtor is take walking possession of goods to the value of the debt to give the debtor time to pay. If he does not pay then the goods will be removed to auction and sold. Problem 1. The bailiff is likely to be fobbed off with the debtor saying all the stuff in here is owned by my partner/wife/son/daughter/dog/cat etc. He may also say that it is on HP or some other terms that means he does not own it until it all paid for. He should produce documents to confirm this, but some bailiffs give far too much rope).
Problem 2. The bailiff has to assess whether or not the goods that "may" be the subject of walking possession are sufficient to satisfy the debt after the costs of removal and sale. If in the bailiffs opinion the costs of removal and sale would be minimal, then he will return the warrant endorsed "N/E" No Effects on Which to Levy". End of warrant and your court fee down the drain.
Problem 3. If goods are taken to auction it is a lottery as to who is there and how much they bid. There will be no reserve. Goods estimated to make £500 may only make £50, so £50 off your debt and you are left to whistle for the rest - or take some other form of enforcement. If he owns his own house, you could apply for a charging order securing your debt against his house. Unless you tried to force a sale through the court earlier (not straightforward), you would not see your money until the property is sold.
There are other things you can do and you may already be aware of all I have written above and more. Google is your friend. I was a lawyer for 30 years and worked in the court service for 12 years before that, so I speak from experience.
Many thanks Rob.
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 05:48
May I say that I really didn't want to name and shame Mr Wood but he left me no choice at all. The courts judgment was in March of this year, we are now in September and he's made no attempt to pay what is owed and appears to either have moved home or is still at the same address but refusing to answer the door when the bailiff calls.
StanleyB
13-09-2014, 06:13
Whilst Rob has pointed out the pitfalls to Geoff even though he has won the case, the damage to Mr Wood's business, I suspect, will be pretty substantial as this isn't the only place this has been posted.
I wasn't aware that this thread can also be found on other forums. So what exactly is the agenda of the OP by doing so?
Separate from that is the issue of asking someone to build you a bespoke piece of audio kit. I have long learnt that it is always best to turn down such requests. If things go wrong, or the customer is not entirely satisfied, the effort and money spent on building the item is all a waste of time. In this day and age of high expectation and quick dissatisfaction, I am surprised that there are still people about who are willing to take on such projects.
BTH K10A
13-09-2014, 06:33
I wasn't aware that this thread can also be found on other forums. So what exactly is the agenda of the OP by doing so?
Separate from that is the issue of asking someone to build you a bespoke piece of audio kit. I have long learnt that it is always best to turn down such requests. If things go wrong, or the customer is not entirely satisfied, the effort and money spent on building the item is all a waste of time. In this day and age of high expectation and quick dissatisfaction, I am surprised that there are still people about who are willing to take on such projects.
Very clear to me, It's a heads up to others who may place orders, supported by the underlying story and may assist in recovery of losses incurred
Rather than a bespoke bit of kit, it seems this person build amps to order rather than hold a stock
http://jwoodaudio.com/
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 07:18
I wasn't aware that this thread can also be found on other forums. So what exactly is the agenda of the OP by doing so?
Separate from that is the issue of asking someone to build you a bespoke piece of audio kit. I have long learnt that it is always best to turn down such requests. If things go wrong, or the customer is not entirely satisfied, the effort and money spent on building the item is all a waste of time. In this day and age of high expectation and quick dissatisfaction, I am surprised that there are still people about who are willing to take on such projects.
Stanley, I requested Mr Wood to build me an amplifier, the following is copied and pasted from my original email to him sent on November 26th 2012.
Hello John, further to our telephone conversation this afternoon, please build and supply one integrated valve amplifier with remote volume control and 75 watts rms per channel at the quoted price of £1,300.00 inclusive of the valves and delivery to my home in Eastbourne, East Sussex.
He said I would receive the amplifier in one months time, I didn't receive the amplifier until February 22nd 2013 and it wasn't what I'd paid for.
The amplifier he eventually sent me was not a new amplifier built for me, it was previously owned (As shown in Mr Wood's statement submitted to the court) and faulty.
It seems that he may have suffered some kind of personality disorder/illness?. I have read on Wigwam that there are satisfied owners out there who have nothing but praise for his work and that he "is a really good bloke". Strange.
I’m sure he was, Rob, before things went tits up, as is often the case with ‘one-man bands’, but when the going gets tough, then appear to go into hiding. We’ve been here before with Vantage Audio, and to some extent, Arkless Electronics….
I’d like to get to the bottom of this matter, and try to obtain a positive result for Geoff, which is why the issue is being discussed here.
Marco.
Thetiminator
13-09-2014, 08:05
I wasn't aware that this thread can also be found on other forums. So what exactly is the agenda of the OP by doing so?
Separate from that is the issue of asking someone to build you a bespoke piece of audio kit. I have long learnt that it is always best to turn down such requests. If things go wrong, or the customer is not entirely satisfied, the effort and money spent on building the item is all a waste of time. In this day and age of high expectation and quick dissatisfaction, I am surprised that there are still people about who are willing to take on such projects.
"I wasn't aware that this thread can also be found on other forums. So what exactly is the agenda of the OP by doing so?"
I thought it should have been reasonably clear that the OP is sharing his experiences -
a) Others can be warned and make an informed decision as to whether or not they would be happy to deal with this guy - and rightly so as it could save other people time/money
b) to put pressure on the seller to increase his chances of recompense - and rightly so too.
Your post suggests you have sympathy with the seller i.e trying to satisfy an awkward customer by trying his best to provide a custom build and then being unfairly targeted on the forums....at least that's how it reads to me.
Reading e-mail the order seemed pretty straight forward and he was clearly happy to take it on and take the OP's money.
"In this day and age of high expectation and quick dissatisfaction" - the unit wasn't working! Bloody picky customers eh?
A worrying/foolish post coming from someone in the trade IMO and I'll be marking it up for the 'dealers to avoid' list...
That’s a bit harsh, Tim, especially the last sentence... I suspect you may have misinterpreted where Stan was coming from.
Stan, there are numerous traders here who supply bespoke equipment all the time, with zero problems. There’s no reason that providing such a service should be an issue, as long as you’re properly organised, are very clear about what work has been agreed with the customer, the timescales required to produce designs (and honour them), and don’t take on more work than you can realistically handle.
Marco.
StanleyB
13-09-2014, 08:29
A worrying/foolish post coming from someone in the trade IMO and I'll be marking it up for the 'dealers to avoid' list...
I am honestly not interested in taking any money off you if that is the kind of attitude you show towards anyone in the trade who asks for further information. Most disappointing is your assumption that I am taking sides. With that kind of thinking on your part, is it worth anyone to bother commenting in this thread? You are the type of guy that scares off people from joining forums or contributing. So let this be a severe warning to anyone else who wishes to post any further comments in this thread. You stand the chance of being accused of taking sides if your reply does not conform to the expectation of Tim the Terminator.
. So let this be a severe warning to anyone else who wishes to post any further comments in this thread. You stand the chance of being accused of taking sides if your reply does not conform to the expectation of Tim the Terminator.
I'll take that chance ;)
There doesn't really seem to be any grey areas in this which is why Marco has agreed to host it. The issue has been twice to court and the whole thing is clear-cut. Payment was made for a specified new item a used and faulty item was supplied instead. I can understand traders not wanting to see a trend of name and shame' threads since it is true that some unscrupulous customers can be deliberately awkward, whether to get a discount, or something for nothing, or just for attention seeking. This is obviously not one of those situations and I fully support Geoff in his attempt to retrieve his money.
StanleyB
13-09-2014, 08:50
I'll take that chance ;)
There doesn't really seem to be any grey areas in this which is why Marco has agreed to host it. The issue has been twice to court and the whole thing is clear-cut. Payment was made for a specified new item a used and faulty item was supplied instead. I can understand traders not wanting to see a trend of name and shame' threads since it is true that some unscrupulous customers can be deliberately awkward, whether to get a discount, or something for nothing, or just for attention seeking. This is obviously not one of those situations and I fully support Geoff in his attempt to retrieve his money.
My question does not relate to any grey area. It is a done and dusted case. What I am asking is why have it repeated as a thread in several forums? Do we want to be a carbon copy of other forums, or bring a refreshingly new approach to what is said and done?
If a trader was doing that with one of their products they would be accused of spamming and shilling.
Stanley, Im with the others here and see no problem in running this thread. As a community, we should be able to warn each other about folks to avoid.
I would be interested to hear what "refreshingly new approaches " you would suggest.
My question does not relate to any grey area. It is a done and dusted case. What I am asking is why have it repeated as a thread in several forums? Do we want to be a carbon copy of other forums, or bring a refreshingly new approach to what is said and done?
If a trader was doing that with one of their products they would be accused of spamming and shilling.
Not at all the same as a trader spamming and shilling. The more forums this is presented on the more potential customers of this company/individual will see it. Thus hopefully providing an incentive for said company/individual to settle the matter in an honourable fashion.
The fact that issues like this are very rarely raised on forums is indicative to me that the vast majority of hi-fi businesses are honest and straight forward and deliver good products and services.
Put simply, if you are offering a service that you cannot provide, then you should stop taking money from customers and do something else for a living. Just like my own chosen trade, you are as good as your reputation. Once that's gone, it's gone for good.
This particular case is a one way street. The man lied in court to try and suggest that a used item had been ordered with a sold as seen waver. That's low. Basically, he doesn't deserve to stay in business. IMO.
StanleyB
13-09-2014, 09:09
Stanley, Im with the others here and see no problem in running this thread. As a community, we should be able to warn each other about folks to avoid.
I would be interested to hear what "refreshingly new approaches " you would suggest.
I am making my comments just like anyone else. So by writing that you are with the others gives me the impression that I am the only person questioning the approach. If that is the case, then I have no further comments to make and consider myself a fool and an idiot to even have taken the time to participate in this thread. Let that be a lesson to me for sticking my nose in other people's business!
I am making my comments just like anyone else. So by writing that you are with the others gives me the impression that I am the only person questioning the approach. If that is the case, then I have no further comments to make and consider myself a fool and an idiot to even have taken the time to participate in this thread. Let that be a lesson to me for sticking my nose in other people's business!
My God man, that's an awful lot of chip to carry. Your back must be aching:D
Wakefield Turntables
13-09-2014, 09:18
Whilst I have sympathy for the guy that lost his money and possibly for the guy who's business might have gone tits up I have to say that :sucks: and we should use some :adminpower: to lock the thread before it becomes a shitfest of arguments and insults.
PS I have never used those smiley's before.
I am making my comments just like anyone else. So by writing that you are with the others gives me the impression that I am the only person questioning the approach. If that is the case, then I have no further comments to make and consider myself a fool and an idiot to even have taken the time to participate in this thread. Let that be a lesson to me for sticking my nose in other people's business!
Stanley, you are correct. You ARE entitled to make a comment just like anyone else. That is welcome.
But please dont take a strop just because you are in a minority. The world is not against you.
If you want to consider yourself a "fool and an idiot", then that is up to you. But please dont try and make anyone else feel guilty, simply for voicing an opinion different from yours.
Your last sentence is just ridiculous. Where is that nonsense coming from ?
Whilst I have sympathy for the guy that lost his money and possibly for the guy who's business might have gone tits up I have to say that :sucks: and we should use some :adminpower: to lock the thread before it becomes a shitfest of arguments and insults.
PS I have never used those smiley's before.
Defence of the indefensible should be commented on, otherwise it's the very worst kind of censorship.
Whilst I have sympathy for the guy that lost his money and possibly for the guy who's business might have gone tits up I have to say that :sucks: and we should use some :adminpower: to lock the thread before it becomes a shitfest of arguments and insults.
Lock the thread? That would be completely counter-productive. The whole point of the thread being started in the first place was to highlight the situation.
No, the discussion will be moderated, if necessary, not locked. We like to promote discussion here, Andy, not stifle it with censorship.
Marco.
walpurgis
13-09-2014, 09:40
Guys. Make valid points by all means from either side of the debate, but can we please put thoughts forward in a way that avoids anyone feeling 'on the backfoot'.
(and no I'm not expressing an opinion on this thread at the moment)
Gordon Steadman
13-09-2014, 09:46
I would have no problem with this posting if it weren't for the fact that we only have our members word for any of it. This is not to doubt his word, merely to point out that, in spite of giving the court and the dates, we are accepting that the information we are being given is correct without having heard from 'the other side' or seen proof.
This seems a little dangerous as someone's business is involved.
I very much sympathise with the OP as to spend out that much without return is no joking matter.
Guys. Make valid points by all means from either side of the debate, but can we please put thoughts forward in a way that avoids anyone feeling 'on the backfoot'.
(and no I'm not expressing an opinion on this thread at the moment)
The only person coming across as 'on the back foot' ( that didn't put himself there) is the poor sod that's £1400+ out of pocket, with court cases won and backing him up, and with proof of lies told in court to try and make a bitter pill to big to swallow. I'd really love to see this chap get his money back.
I run my own business, providing a service to customers for which they pay. The behaviour portrayed by the business model above, disgusts me. I have a strong opinion on the subject.
People in the trade, especially in a niche product market like Hi-Fi, should realise that they don't exist without their customers. Not the other way round. Nobody is doing me a favour by taking my money.
Wakefield Turntables
13-09-2014, 10:01
I'm gonna be honest, I don't want stan to get pissed off and leave the forum. We have had loads of good people leave due to threads turning nasty.
I'm gonna be honest, I don't want stan to get pissed off and leave the forum. We have had loads of good people leave due to threads turning nasty.
The only person involved in this thread that should be righteously pissed off is the O/P. It could be any one of us going through his experience, and I thank him for sharing his pain with us in the hope that future damage is limited for us all.
The chap in question has had his chance to reply on another thread, in another place, to put things right regarding his CE certification for his products that he sells to us. He declined to comment publicly.
Seriously, I'm the very last person that would wish for someone's misfortune when it might affect their ability to put food on the table. But there's no way I could be happy about that food being bought with money from deceit.
I would have no problem with this posting if it weren't for the fact that we only have our members word for any of it. This is not to doubt his word, merely to point out that, in spite of giving the court and the dates, we are accepting that the information we are being given is correct without having heard from 'the other side' or seen proof.
This seems a little dangerous as someone's business is involved.
…which is why I’ve emailed Mr Wood, and alerted him of this discussion, in order to provide him with an opportunity to respond. It’s therefore up to him whether he does so or not. If he chooses the latter option, then no-one can be blamed for being presented here with only one side of the story.
Marco.
I'm gonna be honest, I don't want stan to get pissed off and leave the forum. We have had loads of good people leave due to threads turning nasty.
With respect, having known Stan for years, I think that he’s ‘battle hardened’ enough on forums to be able to handle the occasional bit of criticism! My advice therefore, Andy, would be to take a chill pill and let the thread run its course. Ta :)
Marco.
What is unsavoury here is that there is another thread currently running on AoS on a similar subject matter concerning an Accuphase CDP and a Dutch hifi brokerage firm and yet Stan has not seen fit to comment there, you are not covering yourself in glory here Stan and in fact may well be doing your business irreparable harm as a result.
As far as this case is concerned, court records could be checked if there are any doubts regarding the OP's integrity at all, although if I were the OP I would see this as a slur on my character and as such would speedily exit the forum, stage left...
I think it’s entirely reasonable, Dave, to have one’s motives questioned in a situation like this, especially as Geoff isn’t well-known here, so there’s no need for any strops or dramatic exits.
I’m sure that he would agree, and also appreciate that the majority of people here are on his side, as they believe his issue to be genuine. I certainly do. As ever in these situations, however, the truth will out and guilty parties will receive their comeuppance.
It is precisely the above which this thread facilitates.
Marco.
Thetiminator
13-09-2014, 11:47
Marco
I apologise if I appeared overly harsh, I did mean to be honest but I certainly wouldn't want to come across as unfair or over the top. It's just that these stories keep popping up with what seems like increasing regularity.
I would like to apologise for any offence taken, though I stand by my position even if it was perhaps worded too strongly for some. I would also like to thank you for the excellent job you do as I'm sure this has taken up a lot if your time too. By that I mean checking documentation and monitoring what is a very touchy subject. Others in your position may be more inclined to wash their hands of it and run a mile. Censorship on forums like this can prove to be it's undoing just as quickly as rowing/bullying/libellous comments can, so you're walking a tight rope :(
And to Stanley - again I apologise if I was too harsh. What I maybe should have said was (being in business myself) that your post was at best foolish as your post did (to me and to some others I would imagine) come across as trying to justify the behaviour to some degree. A simple post like that, even if worded or taken up the wrong way, can have consequences or your livelihood, which I wouldn't wish on any one......apart from those who try to hoodwink or just plain steal from their customers.
One concern I do have is that something may have happened to John, but then if that were the case there would surely be someone on the forums that knows him......
Sometimes there is another side to the story, sometimes there is not. From the original post it seems pretty cut and dried. He has bought goods that are faulty, seems straightforward enough. (As an aside I don't put much stock in that someone else - in this case a court - thinks the OP is in the right. Courts screw up on a daily basis, and that is why there are appeal courts, and courts to appeal from appeal courts.)
But the fact of the matter is we do not know the other side of the story. M says he has given the vendor the chance to put forward his version, well and good. He has not given us his side of the story but it is not an automatic leap to infer from that silence that there is no 'defense'. Maybe he is ill, maybe he has more pressing matters, maybe he thinks (p'raps wrongly) anything he says will be auto-rejected, maybe anything. I've just had a hell of a Friday cause an overseas client left everything to the last minute. It turned out the day before his wife had just given birth after some issues. In this case I see no reason to doubt the OP, but until we are told the other side of the story, (by the other side!) one should keep an open mind that it is possible there some (partial) explanation.
No worries, Tim. I appreciate and accept your explanation :)
I would also like to thank you for the excellent job you do as I'm sure this has taken up a lot if your time too. By that I mean checking documentation and monitoring what is a very touchy subject. Others in your position may be more inclined to wash their hands of it and run a mile. Censorship on forums like this can prove to be it's undoing just as quickly as rowing/bullying/libellous comments can, so you're walking a tight rope :(
On AoS, we never shirk away from discussing contentious issues, and instead like to tackle them head on and provide a friendly platform where views can expressed by members on all manner of subjects.
We also like to champion fair play towards both dealers/manufacturers and their customers, and so whilst the good guys in the industry will always be praised and given the recognition that they deserve, the bad guys will equally be exposed and dealt with accordingly.
Marco.
walpurgis
13-09-2014, 12:35
In this case I see no reason to doubt the OP, but until we are told the other side of the story, (by the other side!) one should keep an open mind that it is possible there some (partial) explanation.
Sensible comment.
In this case I see no reason to doubt the OP, but until we are told the other side of the story, (by the other side!) one should keep an open mind that it is possible there some (partial) explanation.
Absolutely. There will certainly be no ‘witch hunts’ carried out here. However, as it seems very likely that Geoff has been unfairly treated, it’s only right to warn others of the potential dangers right now of dealing with John Wood Audio.
Marco.
I've met John twice. He's local to me and did some (excellent) work on a Radford amp at what I considered to be reasonable cost. I'm not defending what's happened here, the facts speak for themselves. What I will say, and I always judge as I find, that John seemed a sound chap who took immense pride in what he was able to produce. I have nothing to back this assertion up, but I can't help thinking some personal/health issue is behind this, it just doesn't square up with the chap I met.
Just a thought, that's all.
Hi Ian,
That’s a very good point, which someone else also brought up earlier. Since you’re local, perhaps you could do folks a favour here and pop round and see if he’s ok, then report back?
If you could shed some light on any issues regarding John's health, then that would go some way to finding out what’s going on in reference to the situation with Geoff :)
Marco.
I've met John twice. He's local to me and did some (excellent) work on a Radford amp at what I considered to be reasonable cost. I'm not defending what's happened here, the facts speak for themselves. What I will say, and I always judge as I find, that John seemed a sound chap who took immense pride in what he was able to produce. I have nothing to back this assertion up, but I can't help thinking some personal/health issue is behind this, it just doesn't square up with the chap I met.
Just a thought, that's all.
That's exactly the picture I've had painted of him for the last few years, backed up by proud and happy owners that I've met from around the web. The mans ability to build amplifiers is not in question, and I've heard a couple that I'd happily own myself.
If the bloke is ill in some way, then fair enough. But! He's obviously well enough to seek legal advice and have a solicitor draft a lie to take to a court hearing that he didn't even turn up to. To me, that says more about a man than any illness could.
We're talking about £1400 quid here. I doubt there's many on this or any other forum that couldn't scrape that together at a push to save their reputation, or even agree a payment plan with the O/P in this case.
The facts presented here suggest some deep dishonesty is going on. That's a shame, but if it is all true, it just goes to show that the ability to make something doesn't necessarily mean you should trade.
My little business is doing ok (touch wood), and has been for some time. But then my priorities are...Happy customer...Happy customer...Happy customer... In that order.
Well, I’ve just received this email from John, which somewhat throws the cat amongst the pigeons:
This Man Brought A second-hand unit from me and when I offered him a refund if he returned it he refused to return it to me but still wanted his money back and so I told him there will be no refund .The story that he as put up on your site is all Bull Sh** He is trying to pull a fast one on me and it will never work like they say you always get one just type my name on Google and have a look.
J.wood
I’ve asked him to join the forum and comment here in more detail.
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-09-2014, 15:25
Hi all,
Well, thats an interesting statement from John, and a very worrying one if proved to be true. My take on what i have read here and in similar situations past and present will always be the same; there are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and somewhere in the middle is the truth, i really hope John accepts the invitation to join here and give his side of the story, at least then we may have a better understanding of what actually went on etc.
Well, I’ve just received this email from John, which somewhat throws the cat amongst the pigeons:
I’ve asked him to join the forum and comment here in more detail.
Marco.
Clive197
13-09-2014, 17:12
:popcorn:
People who eat popcorn are very noisy and inconsiderate. So please could you quieten down I'm trying to concentrate. :argument:
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 17:13
Marco, you have PM.
Thetiminator
13-09-2014, 17:18
"This Man Brought A second-hand unit from me and when I offered him a refund if he returned it he refused to return it to me but still wanted his money back and so I told him there will be no refund .The story that he as put up on your site is all Bull Sh** He is trying to pull a fast one on me and it will never work like they say you always get one just type my name on Google and have a look.
J.wood"
Well at least something has come back, it seems it took an awful long time. He must have been made aware of the activity on the forums well before now surely?
I suppose what he is saying could be true, but it certainly doesn't add up. Why was not this put forward at the solicitors stage as that would have put a quick stop to the legal proceedings....."I've offered a full refund I just want home to return the unit".............job done.
I really think it would be in Johns interests to supply the relevant documentation for this explanation......there appears to be an email chain and would certainly be something in the legal correspondence.
Usually the truth is very straight forward and easily provable......
fatmarley
13-09-2014, 17:47
If this has been to court and the OP won the case, then I wouldn't believe a word that Mr Wood says.
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 17:55
i have copies of the courts decision in my favour and the original email I sent to Wood requesting him to build me an amplifier. I have sent a private message to Marco stating this and when he replies I will send him the copies via email.
Wood is a despicable human being.
anthonyTD
13-09-2014, 18:09
Hi Geoff,
If that is indeed the case, and you can' as you say prove it, then you have my full sympathy, i just cant get my head around why someone who by testimonials of some folk here would risk ruining his reputation for the sake of £1,400, why the heck he didnt just fix it if you were happy to keep it is beyond me.:scratch: :(
i have copies of the courts decision in my favour and the original email I sent to Wood requesting him to build me an amplifier. I have sent a private message to Marco stating this and when he replies I will send him the copies via email.
Wood is a despicable human being.
walpurgis
13-09-2014, 18:24
i have copies of the courts decision in my favour and the original email I sent to Wood requesting him to build me an amplifier. I have sent a private message to Marco stating this and when he replies I will send him the copies via email.
Wood is a despicable human being.
I know you may feel strongly. But please avoid personal comments.
walpurgis
13-09-2014, 18:27
We seem to be some way from the end of this. We are not holding a trial, but rather trying to gather facts and I reckon impartiality is essential regardless.
Quote Originally Posted by J Wood
This Man Brought A second-hand unit from me and when I offered him a refund if he returned it he refused to return it to me but still wanted his money back and so I told him there will be no refund .The story that he as put up on your site is all Bull Sh** He is trying to pull a fast one on me and it will never work like they say you always get one just type my name on Google and have a look.
J.wood
So what is the issue here? Send back the faulty amp, get a refund. The offer is here in writing.
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 18:44
I know you may feel strongly. But please avoid personal comments.
Please accept my apologies Geoff. This whole business has caused me a mountain of stress and is still doing so. If I had £10.00 for every hour I've lain awake at night churning this over and over in my mind I'd be a very wealthy man by now.
Thetiminator
13-09-2014, 18:47
Quote Originally Posted by J Wood
This Man Brought A second-hand unit from me and when I offered him a refund if he returned it he refused to return it to me but still wanted his money back and so I told him there will be no refund .The story that he as put up on your site is all Bull Sh** He is trying to pull a fast one on me and it will never work like they say you always get one just type my name on Google and have a look.
J.wood
So what is the issue here? Send back the faulty amp, get a refund. The offer is here in writing.
Yes that is what he has said today, but apparently not at the time or through all the court/legal action.....
hifinutt
13-09-2014, 18:59
yes its a sad situation been through it with a high end hi fi dealer in the past and wonderfully resolved through the intercessions of a hi fi forum . its good to discuss these matters if one can do it without rancour
istari_knight
13-09-2014, 19:40
Wouldnt like to comment either way but I wish you the best of luck in getting the matter resolved.
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 19:47
I've sent Marco the relevant copies of documents together with the full tale of woe which he suggests I post now. I posted a shortened version previously because of the length and I didn't want you guys to be bored. :lol:
John Wood Audio, a tale of woe, the full details.
I contacted Mr Wood on November 26th 2012 and he said he'd build me an amplifier for £1300.00 inclusive of delivery to my home and I'd receive it in one
month, I paid a £500.00 deposit to him by bank transfer. I made allowances for Christmas but by January 13th 2013 I hadn't heard from him so I contacted
him by email and he replied " It will not be long now, just winding the transformers now, then the build”.
Another sixteen days passed and I hadn't heard from him so I contacted a member of a HiFi forum who'd bought an amplifier from him to find out more
about him because I was worried about the money I'd paid as a deposit by now. The other member said "Yes I have met John and I would say your money is
safe as houses. I know at the moment he is snowed under with work, if you saw his facilities its a wonder anything progresses but his word is good and the
wait is worth it.
He is a perfectionist and parts have to meet his standards so sometimes there are delays. But your money is safe and sound." On the 27th
January Mr Wood contacted me by telephone and said the reason for the delay was that he'd been taken ill and had spent time in hospital but now he was
home and the amplifier would be ready in a couple of weeks. He telephoned me again on Wednesday 13th February 2013 stating the amplifier was ready
for shipping/delivery but because of the snow where he lives he didn't want to arrange for a courier to pick it up in case it was left at the depot over the
coming weekend. I told him not to worry but to send it when the snow had cleared, at this stage, like a fool I arranged for the balance of £800.00 to be paid
into his account.
On Monday 18th February I telephoned him to see when the amplifier would be delivered and at this point he stated he didn't want to send the
amplifier to me because he was concerned it may become damaged in transit. He told me people who bought amplifiers from him always came to him and
collected them, he wanted me to drive up to Nottingham and collect it. I told him I didn't want to come to Nottingham and that when I'd requested him to build
me an amplifier it was inclusive of delivery and he'd accepted my order on that understanding.
He said he wouldn't accept it if it was returned to him by me damaged. He was angling for more money from me to cover insured delivery but I told him I
wasn't prepared to pay more and if he didn't supply the amplifier I would like him to refund the money I'd paid. At this point he said he would contact various
couriers for prices and give me a ring later in the day but he didn't. I telephoned Mr Wood again on Tuesday 19th February at about 9 am but was told
he wasn't there. He had my telephone number but I gave it to the person who answered the phone who told me he'd be back in the next three quarters of an
hour and would ring me back but this didn't happen. I made several more phone calls but the line was permanently engaged.
The amplifier eventually arrived at about 2pm on Friday afternoon, 22nd February, It should have been supplied with a remote control, an electrical mains
lead/cable, instructions on how to use it and a receipt but these items were not in the box. I telephoned Mr Wood and told him and he said he'd sent those in
a separate package attached to the box containing the amplifier which was strange as there appeared to be room for them in the box the amplifier was in,
also, the delivery label on the box stated 'Item 1 of 1'which indicated to me there was no package. However, the amplifier was faulty in that it gave off a
humming/buzzing sound which was not loud but could be heard during quiet passages of music or when listening at low volume. I contacted Mr Wood and
told him and he confirmed it should be silent.
As the amplifier was faulty I asked him to arrange for a courier to collect it and return it to him at his expense but he refused. At this time I asked him for a
refund, again he refused but said if I return it at my expense and he'd had a look at it he would consider a refund. When I first contacted Mr Wood and
placed my order, at no time did he state that he normally required his customers to call at his premises to collect their amplifiers when ready, I only found
this out a later date. If he'd told me this when I first contacted him on November 26th 2012 I wouldn't have placed an order for the amplifier.
I think that he is only obliged to offer you a free repair under statutory warranty since as it is a custom build distance selling laws do not apply. He could give you a refund or replacement but he doesn't have to by law. Did that not come up in court?
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 20:51
I think that he is only obliged to offer you a free repair under statutory warranty since as it is a custom build distance selling laws do not apply. He could give you a refund or replacement but he doesn't have to by law. Did that not come up in court?
Martin, he didn't supply the amplifier I ordered and paid for ie a new amplifier. The statement he submitted to the court stated he supplied me with a previously owned amplifier.
The following I've copied and pasted from my original email to him.
Hello John, further to our telephone conversation this afternoon, please build and supply one integrated valve amplifier with remote volume control and 75 watts rms per channel at the quoted price of £1,300.00 inclusive of the valves and delivery to my home in Eastbourne, East Sussex.
I'd hazard a guess that the amplifier I received hasn't the internal facility to enable remote control of the volume.
Does anyone else think that a bespoke-built (in the UK) valve amplifier, in a decent case, with hand-wound transformers, remote control and 75wpc, is just a tad ‘optimistically priced’ at £1300?
Which valves did it use, Geoff? Was it single-ended or push-pull?
I can’t help but get the feeling that there wasn’t enough profit in it for him, so he supplied you with an inferior amp he thought that he might get away with, and when that didn’t work, has simply lost interest/run out of money to build what he promised you, rectify the issues with the amp that he sent you, or even refund the money you’ve paid him…….
Some of these ‘one-man band’ type outfits are notorious for having poor cash flow and surviving somewhat hand-to-mouth.
Marco.
Eagle owl
13-09-2014, 22:10
Does anyone else think that a bespoke-built (in the UK) valve amplifier, in a decent case, with hand-wound transformers, remote control and 75wpc, is just a tad ‘optimistically priced’ at £1300?
Which valves did it use, Geoff? Was it single-ended or push-pull?
I can’t help but get the feeling that there wasn’t enough profit in it for him, so he supplied you with an inferior amp he thought that he might get away with, and when that didn’t work, has simply lost interest/run out of money to build what he promised you, rectify the issues with the amp that he sent you, or even refund the money you’ve paid him…….
Some of these ‘one-man band’ type outfits are notorious for having poor cash flow and surviving somewhat hand-to-mouth.
Marco.
I'll let you know tomorrow what the valves are Marco, I haven't a clue whether it's single-ended or push-pull as I've little knowledge about these things. When I first contacted him I mentioned an amplifier he'd supplied to a member on the HiFi Wigwam and he quoted a price to build me one for £1,200.00
I then said I would like a remote control and he said he could do one with remote control volume only and that would cost £1,300.00 and that's what I placed an order for. I did at the time reckon it was a very good deal.
It'll be 75 watts push pull from 4x kt88, probably Sovtek. It's not unknown for John to build amps to this spec and for this price btw, as I know at least one other owner of the same amp with remote.
It's actually listening to that amp that got me back in to tubes in a big way. They are good, and as I said in my earlier post, his building skills are not in question as far as I'm concerned.
Hi Rick,
Fair enough, and noted.
However, I’m not questioning his building skills, but rather the profit margins he’s making, which given what I know about the costs involved, can't be that great (especially with hand-wound transformers in the equation) - and when you’re not making much money, the motivation to continue building to the same standard, or even having sufficient cash flow to pay for parts, is bound to be affected.
I could be wrong, but I’m just floating the idea as a possibility.
Marco.
Eagle owl
14-09-2014, 06:04
In contrast to the shabby treatment I received from Mr Wood, here's a tale of excellent customer service.
At about the time I was expecting delivery of my amplifier from Mr Wood, which didn't arrive, (end of December 2012) I bought a pair of pre-owned Tannoy Prestige Turnberrys (SE version) from Audio Emotion in Scotland, the speakers were delivered to me on December 21st 2012. When I unpacked them one had a damaged cabinet so I telephoned the company. They sent a brand new pair to me which arrived on December 24th 2012, the lorry driver then took the damaged pair back to Audio Emotion.
Eagle owl
14-09-2014, 06:09
Hi Rick,
Fair enough, and noted.
However, I’m not questioning his building skills, but rather the profit margins he’s making, which given what I know about the costs involved, can't be that great (especially with hand-wound transformers in the equation) - and when you’re not making much money, the motivation to continue building to the same standard, or even having sufficient cash flow to pay for parts, is bound to be affected.
I could be wrong, but I’m just floating the idea as a possibility.
Marco.
Hi Marco, I reckon from what you're saying that he does only make a small profit on some of his amplifiers. However, some are sold for considerably more money. Sometime earlier this year on one of the Hi-Fi forums, possibly the Wam, a guy was singing the praises of an amplifier Mr Wood sold him which cost £6,000.00
Interesting… I wonder what it was? :hmm:
Anyway, just because he charged £6k for it doesn’t automatically mean that his profit margin was greater, especially if high-quality ‘boutique’ parts were used throughout, and of course whether or not he made decent money on that project has no bearing whatsoever on your situation.
Does anyone have a picture of one of his designs, particularly the £1300 KT88 amp in question? Geoff, do you still have the amp in your possession?
Marco.
http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z457/badchili/iphonemay2012070.jpg
The expensive amps in the range, relatively speaking, are the 200w mono's.
http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z457/badchili/iphonemay2012070.jpg
I wonder how much he pays for the cases? Would be good to see the innards, if someone could pop the underneath off and take a pic…….
Marco.
Ali Tait
14-09-2014, 10:33
Enclosures can be had fairly reasonably Marco, here's an example-
http://www.bluebellaudio.com/enclosurewoodsurround.htm
Marco's right to bring up margin and I feel the fundamental issue goes further than this. It may be that John Wood needs to carefully assess who his customer base should be. I get the impression the OP is very unaware of the hassles involved with running valve amps as he doesn't even appreciate the difference between PP and SE, which is fine as there's no reason he should.....but is he a suitable customer for a one man band building specialist equipement? Yes customer service needs to be good but we're talking one man band here. The ideal customer for his amps I suggest would be someone practical enough to take a look inside, check some basic aspects internally and very possibly even make a small repair ie reflow a solder joint. This of course is quite a small target customer base.
Valve amps being heavy beasts can easily suffer damage in transit, some ability to check if something has come lose is useful. It's quite possible that when the amp left John Wood it was fine but I'm guessing. I know a few one man band companies, some of the proprietors try to vet their customers in the hope of working out whether they can successfully setup their purchase without too much hand holding and this is why some of these guys have a support community of enthusiasts to help out. Of course when a non-trivial problem occurs the product needs to be returned and fixed.
I just wonder whether John Wood is filtering his potential customers for suitability to take on running valve amps supplied via the post vs being delivered and set up by an expert.
Whilst I agree that margins could be an issue here, I disagree that it has any bearing on what the customer should expect. If Mr Wood felt he was not getting enough from the transaction, he should have asked for more from the outset. Then he could have covered his back for the 'hand holding' process.
Even if he carries out builds at a loss, that doesn't make it the paying customers problem, and Geoff shouldn't be out of pocket.
Whilst I agree that margins could be an issue here, I disagree that it has any bearing on what the customer should expect. If Mr Wood felt he was not getting enough from the transaction, he should have asked for more from the outset. Then he could have covered his back for the 'hand holding' process.
Even if he carries out builds at a loss, that doesn't make it the paying customers problem, and Geoff shouldn't be out of pocket.
Agreed. It is not like it is the first valve amp he has ever built and sold so you have to figure he knows exactly what it will cost in parts and how long it will take.
This is a shot in the dark but is it possible he got Geoff mixed up with another customer. Some one man band businesses are pretty badly organised and some are total chaos (I know, I have dealt with plenty via my work) so potentially the whole thing is a misunderstanding and someone who was expecting a no returns second-hand amp actually has Geoff's brand new remote control effort?
Enclosures can be had fairly reasonably Marco, here's an example-
http://www.bluebellaudio.com/enclosurewoodsurround.htm
Thanks, Ali. It all adds up though, especially when you’re not buying parts in any major quantity. I also wonder how much he ’saves’ by (apparently) winding his own transformers, as opposed to buying in ready-made (high quality) ones, from the likes of Sowter?
The transformers used on a valve amp are known to be the single most expensive items… Also, apart from the cost of parts, what about his labour charges? By the time he’s bought all the bits to build this £1300 KT88 amp, I can’t see there being much left to pay for his labour costs, unless he’s happy working for ‘buttons an hour’….
What’s the hourly rate of a decent valve electronics engineer? For example, how much does Nick Gorham charge for his time? It’s got to be at least £50-60 an hour, so how many hours work do you think are in this John Wood KT88 amp design?
I’m just throwing some questions into the mix, as it were, in order to ascertain what might be going on. IMO, part of why this situation has arisen is likely to be down to the poor cash flow, organisation, and most importantly of all, POOR COMMUNICATION of the seller.
In any case, Mr Wood has gone quiet, as I’ve received no more correspondence from him, despite further prompting, so he doesn’t appear to have a lot to say for himself….
Marco.
Thetiminator
14-09-2014, 11:25
This is a very sad all round.
We have one guy who has had the stress of having to go through the courts to get satisfaction. The another guy has perhaps spent years building up his business now has had over 5000 views on the threads detailing this sad affair.
There are only losers in this situation :(
Eagle owl
14-09-2014, 11:45
The amplifier I have looks very similar to the one in the photo Rick posted but it doesn't have a small red light on the front. It has four Sovtek KT88 valves which came in their boxes and which I had to fit myself. It also has four smaller valves, two of which are smaller than the other two, these were already in situ when I unpacked the amplifier, I've tried this morning to identify what they are without success.
killie99
14-09-2014, 11:45
Is it only me that has read what happened here as some people seem to be missing some vital information or have selective reading?
Geoff paid for a new amp to be build. Mr Woods send him a 2nd hand amp which he admitted in court. As far as I'm concerned you can't accidentally do something like this and you deserve to have no more customers.
To deceive a customer by sending them 2nd hand goods and trying to pass them off as new is just unforgivable and inexcusable.
Is it only me that has read what happened here as some people seem to be missing some vital information or have selective reading?
Geoff paid for a new amp to be build. Mr Woods send him a 2nd hand amp which he admitted in court. As far as I'm concerned you can't accidentally do something like this and you deserve to have no more customers.
To deceive a customer by sending them 2nd hand goods and trying to pass them off as new is just unforgivable and inexcusable.
You should re-read the thread Stu, as you are guilty of your own observations mate.:D
All this hand-wringing shouldn't mask the fact that Mr Wood's level of service has been found wanting in a British court, twice in effect, so let's not lose sight of that. As for his email to Marco, I see no contrition at all which is reprehensible IMO, especially under the circumstances.
For me the initial error of John Wood was to not clearly state up front the amp needed to be picked up in person. Had it been it's likely the latter events would not hsve unfolded.
For me the initial error of John Wood was to not clearly state up front the amp needed to be picked up in person. Had it been it's likely the latter events would not hsve unfolded.
I was going to make this very point, but thought it somewhat churlish and not wishing to rub salt in the wounds. By the way Clive this is not a dig at you in any way as I think it needed saying.
Eagle owl
14-09-2014, 12:25
For me the initial error of John Wood was to not clearly state up front the amp needed to be picked up in person. Had it been it's likely the latter events would not hsve unfolded.
Clive, you've hit the nail on the head, I'm of an age now where I have no desire to drive long distances on our crappy, congested road system. If Mr Wood had told me I would need to come and collect the amplifier when he'd finished building it I would not have placed an order with him.
Geoff paid for a new amp to be build. Mr Woods send him a 2nd hand amp which he admitted in court. As far as I'm concerned you can't accidentally do something like this
.
Orders get sent to the wrong place all the time, it is a mistake that can happen relatively easily in a company of any size. Not saying that is the case here but if you consider a sole trader who has maybe ten or fifteen live orders on the go for all sorts, who is not particularly organised, keeps no formal records, takes orders on the telephone and by e-mail, it is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility.
lol, here we are, reading a tale of truly awful trading practices and customer service, backed up not once, but twice, by a court judgement, and people are making veiled excuses for his behaviour.:doh:
The lack of input is no surprise to me. I was in a position to read the very lively debate on the wam when it was happening regarding the debacle that was the question of CE certification. He wouldn't contribute to that either, and instead sent a PM to James to insist, in so many words, that he is somehow above the laws of the land. I'm seeing similarities here too!
Any mistake regarding an order or shipping or material costs or margins or health issues do not require 2 court hearings to get them rectified.
Making excuses for this is as inexcusable as the act.
This is a risk you take buying from OMB (one man band) concerns. When everything goes swimmingly all is a bed of roses, it's only when one has an issue with the product in question that one discovers the true nature of the beast. That's not to say all OMB's follow Mr Woods example of course...
Interesting thread. After the bashing John got on the Wigam over CE approval and now this, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he gave up all together, which would in many ways be a shame as his amps are very very good.
He built me a pair of bespoke mono-block power amps about 18 months ago. He was if I recall correctly he was at the time offering an integrated for £1300. As I recall he had had a number of chassis made and got a good price on components by buying in larger than usual quantities. There's not a huge amount of parts in his amps but the money goes on the important bits, those mega transformers. Big, very big and heavy very heavy.
The impression I got was that all sales were strictly collection only as he didn't have cases and the amps are, as above, VERY heavy. There is clearly more risk on both sides with a hand made bespoke product so I think all parties need to go into with their eyes open. I would have had reservations about buying something like this if I couldn't collect in person. Just the risk of damage in transit would have been enough to put me off. I think it is rare that the seller pays return costs on faulty items, even ebay makes the buyer pay for the return. Potential issues like this should have been thought through prior to purchase. As should issues such as valve replacement and re-biasing.
Before I am accused of being a fanboy let me say that I too had some frustrations with my purchase too and think John would benefit from being more up front before the sale. For example my pre sale emailed purchase terms included a demonstration on biasing when I collected. It never materialised and I got the distinct impression that John wasn't keen for other people to start messing with his amps. If I look at it from the other side of the coin though if I offered a life time warranty, like John told me he did, I would want to be sure that problems were caused by other factors. But I would have preferred it if he had said he didnt want to cover that before I paid the money. I had some slippage on delivery timescales too.
I never expected manuals or boxes, I dont think I got power cables but given the bargain price it was no big deal to me. I was disappointed that I never received the receipt he promised to email.
The hum issue is an interesting one.
When I first got mine I ran a long interconnect between the John Wood Pre and the John Wood Power amps and everything was whisper quiet. When I moved the power amps close to the pre and used 8m of Canare 4s11 between the speakers and the power amp hum was very bad. So bad I thought the amps had developed a fault, but swapping the Canare for Belden 5000UP largely sorted the problem. It still not as quiet as it was with the long interconnect but my ear needs to be right up against the speakers (94db/m) now to hear it.
Would John have knowingly shipped a faulty product I doubt it but I a have a niggle that my balance pot is wired the wrong way round so maybe things can get missed.
I was brought up in retail in the 1980s during a time that customer service was paramount. I can remember arranging for contractors to visit a customer to remove and re-install a children's swing from its concrete foundations because the old swing had gone rusty! I cant think that many companies would do that these days. Service is something that appears to me to be devoid from many retailers philosophy these days; mobile phone suppliers, telecoms suppliers, utility companies for example. Some that I would dearly like to see come back.
I pride myself on delivering first class service. I always strive to over deliver and secondly on the very rare occasions that some thing goes wrong I pro-actively try to ensure it is corrected or compensated for before my customers raise the issue. Its so easy to loose customers and in a niche market like John works a bad reputation could be disastrous.
I think early action here by John, reasonable or not, would have given a better solution for all. Ultimately I guess he has himself to blame for chasing sales that didn't confirm to his "collection only policy". One that I think potential customers would be wise to follow too
This is a risk you take buying from OMB (one man band) concerns. When everything goes swimmingly all is a bed of roses, it's only when one has an issue with the product in question that one discovers the true nature of the beast. That's not to say all OMB's follow Mr Woods example of course...
I have been asked to clarify this post which I am happy to do. The point I make is to encourage people to do their research thoroughly before pulling the trigger on an item, which in fact is good practice whether the outfit is a small business or indeed a much larger concern. Use your noggin: Read reviews on forums and take note of peoples experiences etc, etc. The vast majority of the time such transactions will be painless and pleasant, it is the odd one or two traders who spoil it for everyone else and as such they need to be exposed to the limelight....
The big advantage of buying from a OMB is price. From memory Moorgate Acoustics used to sell the pre amp at £1500 and the Power amp at £4000. God knows what these would have cost if a distributor had been involved too.
sq225917
14-09-2014, 19:02
Stepping back a little.
Here's what's likely.
John took the order, typically assumed the buyer understood that it was a re-manufactured amp, new clean case etc on old guts but with new tubes. Shipped it, complete, with one package strapped to the other which would be considered as 'one of one' by the courier. The small package fell off, John thought the buyer an overly aggressive ass-clown and treated him as such fearing that he'd never see the amp back if he refunded him and we end up down the line where we are in this thread. It perfectly explains John's willingness to openly state to the court that it was not a brand new unit.
I don't think he's trying to pull a fast one. I think Geoff is a demanding and aggressive customer who got the wrong end of the stick re John 'building him a new amp' and has worked forward from that lack of communication into an entrenched position. There may be other mitigating factors on both sides. The simple solution would have been for John to arrange for a trusted party to inspect and collect the amp and hand over the cash back to Geoff. Instead he chose the suicidal move of ignoring a valued customer and compounded this stupidity by ignoring the courts.
The only recovery for John is to inspect and collect the amp, issue a refund and work with the buyer to deal with the issue of court costs. With a bit of luck he could come out of this with as little as £250 out of pocket- which I might add is a fine price for saving your credibility. Any attempt to do otherwise has to be seen as a bad move.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong you just have to suck it up and move on. Hopefully John can see this and make the right call.
anthonyTD
14-09-2014, 19:07
Sounds very plausible, And as you say, it could have been sorted all to easily compared with what has now become a nightmare for all involved. Reading this as someone in the trade, i really feel for both parties.
Stepping back a little.
Here's what's likely.
John took the order, typically assumed the buyer understood that it was a re-manufactured amp, new clean case etc on old guts but with new tubes. Shipped it, complete, with one package strapped to the other which would be considered as 'one of one' by the courier. The small package fell off, John thought the buyer an overly aggressive ass-clown and treated him as such fearing that he'd never see the amp back if he refunded him and we end up down the line where we are in this thread. It perfectly explains John's willingness to openly state to the court that it was not a brand new unit.
I don't think he's trying to pull a fast one. I think Geoff is a demanding and aggressive customer who got the wrong end of the stick re John 'building him a new amp' and has worked forward from that lack of communication into an entrenched position. There may be other mitigating factors on both sides. The simple solution would have been for John to arrange for a trusted party to inspect and collect the amp and hand over the cash back to Geoff. Instead he chose the suicidal move of ignoring a valued customer and compounded this stupidity by ignoring the courts.
The only recovery for John is to inspect and collect the amp, issue a refund and work with the buyer to deal with the issue of court costs. With a bit of luck he could come out of this with as little as £250 out of pocket- which I might add is a fine price for saving your credibility. Any attempt to do otherwise has to be seen as a bad move.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong you just have to suck it up and move on. Hopefully John can see this and make the right call.
Hi Simon,
I think you make some valid points. However...
John took the order, typically assumed the buyer understood that it was a re-manufactured amp, new clean case etc on old guts but with new tubes.
There’s your BIG problem right there, and it’s encapsulated by the word “assumed”. It seems to me that unfortunately John’s done lots of ‘assuming’ and precious little informing. Moreover, why would Geoff ‘assume’ the above unless John had made that fact crystal clear?
In terms of incorrect assumptions, John assumed that Geoff would know that when the amp was ready it would be collection only (instead of outlining that fact clearly when the order was taken), and now it appears he’s assumed that Geoff understood that he would be getting a “re-manufactured amp" (which, if that’s the case now explains why he can produce them for as little £1300), neither of which is stated on his website: http://jwoodaudio.com/
…in fact, there’s precious little explained there at all! And what’s all this about hand-winding transformers, if he’s supplying a “re-manufactured” amp??? :scratch:
If you’re going to go to the trouble of having a website, then at least ensure that it serves the purpose of telling potential customers what it is you do. Further compounding that lack of information, I can at no point see where John has clearly stated to Geoff *exactly* what he was getting for his money, and that includes the email correspondence to date they’ve conducted between them, which Geoff has forwarded to me. You can’t just expect people to ‘assume’ this or that. The facts should be made crystal clear!
In short, John’s biggest problem in this whole sorry mess is that he’s been guilty of not communicating adequately with his customers. Quite simply, it’s the catalyst that has caused the situation he’s currently in, and unfortunately typical of many (but not all) sole-traders in the audio industry who, whilst having the ability to design equipment, don’t possess an equal ability to properly manage and market their business, and most of all, deal effectively with customer service. That’s a totally different skill set, and you need it all in order to run a successful business with the likelihood of a prolonged longevity.
Furthermore, having read the emails Geoff sent to John, during the time from him ordering the amp and paying a £500 deposit, up until the fallout happened between them, there is no evidence at any stage of Geoff being aggressive, quite the opposite in fact, as he quite clearly showed patience and understanding, and gave John plenty of leeway. He certainly didn’t do anything I wouldn’t have done in similar circumstances (in fact he showed a damn sight more patience than I’d have given), so in that respect, I think you’re wrong.
The bottom line here is that John has made an arse it, to put it quite bluntly, and so he needs to hold his hands up and accept that he got it wrong, in terms of the way the whole transaction was handled (we’re all human and therefore fallible), sort it out toute-suite to the satisfaction of Geoff, and most importantly of all, use the experience as a learning curve and ensure that it doesn’t happen again. To do that, he will need to significantly increase his overall levels of professionalism, especially in relation to communicating properly with his customers.
If he can excel in that area to the same degree as he does when building his amplifiers, then he might just have a chance of saving his business now and ensuring that it has a future.
Marco.
Eagle owl
14-09-2014, 20:30
Stepping back a little.
Here's what's likely.
John took the order, typically assumed the buyer understood that it was a re-manufactured amp, new clean case etc on old guts but with new tubes. Shipped it, complete, with one package strapped to the other which would be considered as 'one of one' by the courier. The small package fell off, John thought the buyer an overly aggressive ass-clown and treated him as such fearing that he'd never see the amp back if he refunded him and we end up down the line where we are in this thread. It perfectly explains John's willingness to openly state to the court that it was not a brand new unit.
I don't think he's trying to pull a fast one. I think Geoff is a demanding and aggressive customer who got the wrong end of the stick re John 'building him a new amp' and has worked forward from that lack of communication into an entrenched position. There may be other mitigating factors on both sides. The simple solution would have been for John to arrange for a trusted party to inspect and collect the amp and hand over the cash back to Geoff. Instead he chose the suicidal move of ignoring a valued customer and compounded this stupidity by ignoring the courts.
The only recovery for John is to inspect and collect the amp, issue a refund and work with the buyer to deal with the issue of court costs. With a bit of luck he could come out of this with as little as £250 out of pocket- which I might add is a fine price for saving your credibility. Any attempt to do otherwise has to be seen as a bad move.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong you just have to suck it up and move on. Hopefully John can see this and make the right call.
Simon, I certainly am not a demanding and aggressive customer who got the wrong end of the stick, I don't know why you would say this, we've never met and you don't know me at all. I ordered and paid for a brand new amplifier with a remote volume control, the amplifier I received was second hand and had no remote volume control. Mr Wood refused to repair the amplifier unless I paid the courier cost to send it back to him and then return it to me, in view of that I then requested him to refund the money I'd paid him and arrange collection of the amplifier, he again refused. To be honest, at this stage I no longer had trust in Mr Wood. I took him to court and won the case, Marco, the owner of this forum has seen copies of documents relating to the case and is satisfied I'm telling the truth. Mr Wood, should now do the honourable thing by answering the door to the bailiff when he next visits his premises and pay what he owes.
Indeed - that’s it in a nutshell.
Why on earth should you have to pay for the return of an amp that was not produced to the standard or specification agreed (or at least assumed by you, through not be told clearly otherwise by John)? Any costs relating to solving that matter should’ve been borne by him, as at the end of the day, he’s the one that’s taken your money, and you are the customer!
Anyway, see my post above :)
Marco.
Eagle owl
14-09-2014, 20:49
Indeed - that’s it in a nutshell.
See my post above :)
Marco.
Yes, thanks Marco, you must have posted it while I was in the process of writing my reply. :)
Just in from John:
if you ring me or give me a number where I can ring you I think that would be best
J.wood
I’ve asked John to ring me tomorrow, so hopefully we can now get to the bottom of this and arrive at an agreeable solution for all parties. I will report on the outcome of our chat.
Marco.
Simon, I certainly am not a demanding and aggressive customer who got the wrong end of the stick, I don't know why you would say this, we've never met and you don't know me at all. I ordered and paid for a brand new amplifier with a remote volume control, the amplifier I received was second hand and had no remote volume control. Mr Wood refused to repair the amplifier unless I paid the courier cost to send it back to him and then return it to me, in view of that I then requested him to refund the money I'd paid him and arrange collection of the amplifier, he again refused. To be honest, at this stage I no longer had trust in Mr Wood. I took him to court and won the case, Marco, the owner of this forum has seen copies of documents relating to the case and is satisfied I'm telling the truth. Mr Wood, should now do the honourable thing by answering the door to the bailiff when he next visits his premises and pay what he owes.
You may wish to add: 'I undertake to return the amplifier if refunded in full'. (You may have said this already but I am not going to re-read the thread)
You may wish to add: 'I undertake to return the amplifier if refunded in full'. (You may have said this already but I am not going to re-read the thread)
Id say that is the only safe assumption I'd make in this whole unfortunate thread.
Marco, big thumbs up to you for taking it upon yourself to get involved as mediator. That's a brilliant thing you're doing.:youtheman:
The big advantage of buying from a OMB is price. From memory Moorgate Acoustics used to sell the pre amp at £1500 and the Power amp at £4000. God knows what these would have cost if a distributor had been involved too.
Hi,
These are the the amps. The pre amp was £1500 and the power amp was £2995.
http://forum.moorgateacoustics.co.uk/download/file.php?id=204&mode=view
http://forum.moorgateacoustics.co.uk/download/file.php?id=203&mode=view
walpurgis
14-09-2014, 22:57
Chinese Dynaco copy valve amp. The transformers look rather similar to me. Not that I'd suggest they are the same.
The Chinese sourced and British marketed VAA 70 EL34 amp which I owned had very similar transformers too.
http://i62.tinypic.com/4h6suu.jpg
Eagle owl
15-09-2014, 05:48
Marco, big thumbs up to you for taking it upon yourself to get involved as mediator. That's a brilliant thing you're doing.:youtheman:
Hear, hear, Marco's help is very much appreciated by me. :)
Thanks, guys - we aim to please and like to see that fair play is carried out, and if not justice done. In that respect, it’ll be interesting hearing what John has to say.
Btw, just to clarify, is the amp still in your possession, and so you’re essentially waiting on him arranging a courier to collect it, and also him refunding your money?
Marco.
The transformers look rather similar to me.
Not that I know either way, but even if you wind transformers in house, they will be wound on stock bobbins with standard size laminations and use standard end caps. Making your own transformer is one thing. Building a steel mill to manufacture laminations is another :-)
Eagle owl
15-09-2014, 07:58
Thanks, guys - we aim to please. It’ll be interesting hearing what John has to say.
Btw, just to clarify, is the amp still in your possession, and so you’re essentially waiting on him arranging a courier to collect it, and also him refunding your money?
Marco.
Yes Marco, I still have the amplifier in my possession. If Mr Wood wishes to put things right he should do it through the bailiff as the case has been to court. If he pays £1,480.00 (The current amount owing) to the bailiff I will make the amplifier available for collection by or on behalf of Mr Wood in line with the Judge's ruling for a period of 28 days once the money is in my bank account.
Thetiminator
15-09-2014, 10:18
Id say that is the only safe assumption I'd make in this whole unfortunate thread.
Marco, big thumbs up to you for taking it upon yourself to get involved as mediator. That's a brilliant thing you're doing.:youtheman:
Seconded! Nice one Marco, it's a real help to know that someone in your position is there to mediate, try to ensure fair play or allow the reporting of rogue traders.....
:clap:
Well, I’ve tried numerous times today to get hold of John, both via phone and email, but with no joy. Hopefully, when he’s less busy, he’ll answer my messages….
Marco.
Ok, John’s just phoned me. I shall comment more later!
Marco.
(Brian Blessed voice) GOOD GOD MAN! WE CAN'T WAIT THIS LONG........GET ON WITH IT!
(Brian Blessed voice) GOOD GOD MAN! WE CAN'T WAIT THIS LONG........GET ON WITH IT!
Indeed. This is nearly as good as Judge Judy.:D
Mr Kipling
15-09-2014, 17:55
Indeed. This is nearly as good as Judge Judy.:D
"I don't give a rat's behind."
PaulStewart
15-09-2014, 19:54
:popcorn:
:popcorn:
Clive197
15-09-2014, 20:44
:
:popcorn:
:popcorn:
If you can't beat them, join them.:popcorn:
fatmarley
15-09-2014, 21:15
:
If you can't beat them, join them.:popcorn:
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:: popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:: popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
Oi! l am the emocicon correspondant round these parts.:yesbruv:
:popcorn:
Lol....!! Sorry for the delay, chaps, but moi is a busy boy, you know!
Ok, I had a long chat yesterday with John, as indeed I have had today with Geoff. Unfortunately, in terms of attempting to solve their dispute, I now don't know who to believe, as they both come across as very plausible and nice people! :doh:
However, obviously one of them is not being entirely honest.....
After I spoke yesterday with John, and he put his side of the story to me, I asked him to collate in an email, in the form of 'bullet points', what we'd discussed on the phone, which he duly did, and I enclose this below so that you can attempt to make up your own minds who's at fault, and also so that Geoff can reply to John's remarks and defend his side of the story.
From John yesterday:
Hi Marco re out telephone conversation here s just a few points that we discussed on the phone to day I know there are many more but here is a few to start with and can I just say thanks for the call it was nice to chat to you .
1) what was asked for by email was later changed by phone so emails don't reflect the full story.
2) I don't and have never made remote volume power amps which was his first enquiry .
3) Emails are very easy to alter I would never offer them as proof if it were me.
4) I think it was his intention in the first place to get the money back no matter what, and keep the amp that's why he was saying one thing by email then making changes by phone he never sent any mail reflecting what was said in the phone calls
5) At first he was going to collect the amp from me and then insisted I send it, If he had collected it like every one else most of his points would not have been relevant ! and I think he was well aware of that.
6) He never paid me for the shipping witch cost me £160.00 witch he ordered at the last minute
7) An Invoice was sent with pictures as he requested which he approved and then paid .
8) I paid one trip for the amp he needs to step up and pay the other way.
9) I offered to refund him on more-than one occasion.
10) He wanted a refund without sending the goods back which will never happen.
11) And now there is also a matter of the court case which in my opinion was somehow illegal I have a legal right as a defendant to have any case made against me heard in the city where I live and he changed this on 3 occasions having the case heard in my absence I have been making HiFi amps now for 50 years built my first when I was 5, yes I am 55 my work is all over the world with only one bad customer and you have him on your website.
Many thanks
John Wood
What I would add is that John has now offered to pay for a courier to collect the amp from Geoff, and once he receives the amp back in the same condition as it left him, he has promised to refund Geoff in full.
I shall comment more later, but right now it's over to you guys (and Geoff) :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
16-09-2014, 15:35
If John has offered a full refund after return of the amp I don't think such an offer should be refused no matter what has gone on before.
I was greatly surprised that anyone would accept copies of emails as proof of anything. Those and indeed, official looking court papers, could be produced very easily indeed these days. I could do it easily. Eastbourne court records are not available on line so it would be hard to double check the whole thing. Again, this is not to doubt anyone's word, just making the point.
Strange about the remote control which seems to be highlighted as a complaint when the man has never made such a thing.
I reckon it would be best to write this whole thing off as a misunderstanding. Allow the amp to be collected and accept the refund. The time comes when you just have to trust someone.
Eagle owl
16-09-2014, 15:40
Originally Posted by J Wood
Hi Marco re out telephone conversation here s just a few points that we discussed on the phone to day I know there are many more but here is a few to start with and can I just say thanks for the call it was nice to chat to you .
1 what was asked for by email was later changed by phone so emails don't reflect the full story.
2 I don't and have never made remote volume power amps which was his first enquiry .
3 Emails are very easy to alter I would never offer them as proof if it were me.
4 I think it was his intention in the first place to get the money back no matter what, and keep the amp that's why he was saying one thing by email then making changes by phone he never sent any mail reflecting what was said in the phone calls
5 At first he was going to collect the amp from me and then insisted I send it, If he had collected it like every one else most of his points would not have been relevant ! and I think he was well aware of that.
6 He never paid me for the shipping witch cost me £160.00 witch he ordered at the last minute
7 An Invoice was sent with pictures as he requested which he approved and then paid .
8 I paid one trip for the amp he needs to step up and pay the other way.
9 I offered to refund him on more-than one occasion.
10 He wanted a refund without sending the goods back which will never happen
11 And now there is also a matter of the court case which in my opinion was somehow illegal I have a legal right as a defendant to have any case made against me heard in the city where I live and he changed this on 3 occasions having the case heard in my absence I have been making HiFi amps now for 50 years built my first when I was 5, yes I am 55 my work is all over the world with only one bad customer and you have him on your website
Many thanks
John Wood
With regard to the above, it's a list of untruths which saddens me but doesn't surprise me at all.
Eagle owl
16-09-2014, 15:48
If John has offered a full refund after return of the amp I don't think such an offer should be refused no matter what has gone on before.
I was greatly surprised that anyone would accept copies of emails as proof of anything. Those and indeed, official looking court papers, could be produced very easily indeed these days. I could do it easily. Eastbourne court records are not available on line so it would be hard to double check the whole thing. Again, this is not to doubt anyone's word, just making the point.
Strange about the remote control which seems to be highlighted as a complaint when the man has never made such a thing.
I reckon it would be best to write this whole thing off as a misunderstanding. Allow the amp to be collected and accept the refund. The time comes when you just have to trust someone.
Gordon, I don't trust Mr Wood at all, if I were to return the amplifier to him he would have my money and the amplifier and I would be left with nothing. I just cannot place any trust in a person who tells a pack of lies so easily.
Not sure such a plan is now an option as the court has made a decision. Another court appearance is going to have to happen I'd assume for that to work.(assuming the court case happened, and mr wood has not denied it)
If so, then he would need to pay said court appointed official and then the goods would be available to be returned.
Hi Geoff,
I thought you were going to respond to John’s points one by one, and ‘correct’ them accordingly? That was why I posted them.
Marco.
Geoff, let's tackle a couple of Mr Woods points...
Is it your intention to keep the amplifier regardless?
Assuming this is not the case (and why would it be?), are you willing to share the cost of return shipping to resolve this?
Audio Al
16-09-2014, 16:04
I was not going to chip in on this thread , however some time ago I purchased a Sony TT and the seller had this very same amp in his high end system
It looked good , It sounded good ( I stayed for 2 hours listening to his system ) and the owner was a happy man , So was I when I loaded the PS 6750 in the car :D
Thetiminator
16-09-2014, 16:13
Well for what it's worth I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of this story.
More importantly, the witch hunting has died right off. So my vote is to stick the boot into the OP and then when that has run it's course....let's get stuck in to Marco :punch:
:popcorn:
That wouldn’t work. I like pain :D
Marco.
Audio Al
16-09-2014, 16:19
That wouldn’t work. I like pain :D
Marco.
:scratch: you sure you have the wording correct , I think one word is missing :- Being ( insert between like and pain ) :)
Clive197
16-09-2014, 16:20
I also was not going to comment here but!
I think that trust and truth seems to be absent between the two protagonists in this sorry saga.
My suggestion is that a middle man be chosen (Marco perhaps). The amp is then despatched from Geoff to that man. The money is at the same time sent to the same man. Both items then forwarded to the correct recipient.
Geoff, to resolve this you need to accept a cost.
John, to resolve this you need to accept a cost.
I really don't think that we will ever know the full and truthful story, but at the moment both are huge losers and some sanity must be brought to the table.
Anyway that's my two penny worth.
Clive
PaulStewart
16-09-2014, 16:39
Err 'a use me but Geoff has no need to accept a cost, Wood was found at fault by a crown court FFS, Geoff has a legal right to ditrain on his goods to the awarded figure. Legally he does not have to pay for shipping or even return the faulty, mis described goods at all. This was the decision of a highly qualified COUNTY COURT JUDGE, not a bunch of blokes on the internet. Wood has now got a CCJ against him so has ruined his credit rating and reputation. Pay the bailiffs and try and get the CCJ resolved, or you make yourself out to be a crook. It's called obeying the law, generally a good idea.
Clive197
16-09-2014, 17:14
Err 'a use me but Geoff has no need to accept a cost, Wood was found at fault by a crown court FFS, Geoff has a legal right to ditrain on his goods to the awarded figure. Legally he does not have to pay for shipping or even return the faulty, mis described goods at all. This was the decision of a highly qualified COUNTY COURT JUDGE, not a bunch of blokes on the internet. Wood has now got a CCJ against him so has ruined his credit rating and reputation. Pay the bailiffs and try and get the CCJ resolved, or you make yourself out to be a crook. It's called obeying the law, generally a good idea.
Paul, I don't think you get it. No matter what the law says, this is a civil case, not a criminal one, and so far that has got Geoff and John nowhere. John seems able to avoid the bailiffs and Geoff has to lay out more money to get private bailiffs involved. Good luck with that.
Furthermore do you really believe that County Court Judges are highly qualified and always make good decisions. A little naive I think.
A solution is required, not a procrastination of who is legally right or wrong.
Clive
Eagle owl
16-09-2014, 17:17
Hi Geoff,
I thought you were going to respond to John’s points one by one, and ‘correct’ them accordingly? That was why I posted them.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
sorry, I will attempt to do so.
1) what was asked for by email was later changed by phone so emails don't reflect the full story.
Not true, I never once telephoned Mr Wood to change my original order.
2) I don't and have never made remote volume power amps which was his first enquiry .
Not true, my original and only enquiry related to integrated amplifiers, Mr Wood quoted a price of £1,200.00, I asked whether he could build me one with a remote control, and he replied he could do one with remote volume control only for £1,300.00
3) Emails are very easy to alter I would never offer them as proof if it were me.
I certainly wouldn't know how to alter an email, I'm 68 years young and only know everyday easy stuff to do with computers.
4) I think it was his intention in the first place to get the money back no matter what, and keep the amp that's why he was saying one thing by email then making changes by phone he never sent any mail reflecting what was said in the phone calls
Not true, It was never my intention to do what Mr Wood is suggesting.
5) At first he was going to collect the amp from me and then insisted I send it, If he had collected it like every one else most of his points would not have been relevant ! and I think he was well aware of that.
Not true. At no time when I spoke on the telephone to Mr Wood did he state amplifiers he built had to be collected by the purchaser. The first time he mentioned it was on Monday 18th February 2013. At this stage I said if he didn't supply the amplifier I would like him to refund the money I'd paid. I really wish he'd done that now.
6) He never paid me for the shipping witch cost me £160.00 witch he ordered at the last minute.
It's true, i didn't pay Mr Wood for the shipping costs, the money I paid him was inclusive of delivery to my home, Marco has seen a copy of the email I sent to Mr Wood placing the order we'd earlier agreed on the telephone and his reply thanking me for the order.
7) An Invoice was sent with pictures as he requested which he approved and then paid .
Not True. To this day I've not received an invoice with pictures nor have I received a receipt for the money I paid.
8) I paid one trip for the amp he needs to step up and pay the other way.
I have no intention of paying Mr Wood more money. Mr Wood needs to answer his door to the bailiff and pay the £1,480.00 owing. When the money is in my bank account I shall for a period of 28 days make the amplifier available for collection by or on behalf of John Wood, as per the Judges ruling.
9) I offered to refund him on more-than one occasion.
Not True. I can't say any more than that, it's another of his untruths.
10) He wanted a refund without sending the goods back which will never happen
Not true. I requested a refund and for Mr Wood to arrange to have the faulty amplifier collected, he refused.
11) And now there is also a matter of the court case which in my opinion was somehow illegal I have a legal right as a defendant to have any case made against me heard in the city where I live and he changed this on 3 occasions having the case heard in my absence I have been making HiFi amps now for 50 years built my first when I was 5, yes I am 55 my work is all over the world with only one bad customer and you have him on your website.
Mr Wood ignored the letters/paperwork sent to him by the Nottingham County Court and the court found in my favour in his absence. He then applied for the Judgment to be set aside and it was scheduled for 17th January 2014. At this, I sent a letter to the Judge in Nottingham requesting on health grounds that the hearing be transferred to Eastbourne Count Court and it was granted. The new hearing took place on 13th March 2014 which I attended. Mr Wood did not attend and the evidence I submitted was accepted by the judge and the application to set aside judgment was dismissed.
Marco told me during our telephone conservation today that Mr Wood has now offered to pay for a courier to collect the amplifier from me and once he receives it back in the same condition as it left him, he has promised to refund me in full.
Quite frankly I don't trust Mr Wood to keep his promise.
Eagle owl
16-09-2014, 17:22
Geoff, let's tackle a couple of Mr Woods points...
Is it your intention to keep the amplifier regardless?
Assuming this is not the case (and why would it be?), are you willing to share the cost of return shipping to resolve this?
Dave, I don't want the amplifier at all, I wish to God I'd never heard about John Wood and his amplifiers. I've won a court case against Mr Wood, he should comply with the court's ruling.
Eagle owl
16-09-2014, 17:24
That wouldn’t work. I like pain :D
Marco.
Me too, NOT. :lol:
Ok, I'm now officially bored with this thread... Not constructive I know, but just felt like sharing...
Thetiminator
16-09-2014, 17:53
That wouldn’t work. I like pain :D
Marco.
Dirty boy :whippin:
Ok, I'm now officially bored with this thread... Not constructive I know, but just felt like sharing...
Maybe because it's not your money?
I don't know if John Wood reads this thread, but speaking as a fellow sole trader, I have made one very important observation. This is backed up by your own hand.
In my opinion, you are incredibly unprofessional. Regardless of your technical ability, I find your business attitude absolutely laughable. I can assure you that I am one less future customer.
Err 'a use me but Geoff has no need to accept a cost, Wood was found at fault by a crown court FFS, Geoff has a legal right to ditrain on his goods to the awarded figure. Legally he does not have to pay for shipping or even return the faulty, mis described goods at all. This was the decision of a highly qualified COUNTY COURT JUDGE, not a bunch of blokes on the internet. Wood has now got a CCJ against him so has ruined his credit rating and reputation. Pay the bailiffs and try and get the CCJ resolved, or you make yourself out to be a crook. It's called obeying the law, generally a good idea.
Good post
Maybe because it's not your money?
I don't know if John Wood reads this thread, but speaking as a fellow sole trader, I have made one very important observation. This is backed up by your own hand.
In my opinion, you are incredibly unprofessional. Regardless of your technical ability, I find your business attitude absolutely laughable. I can assure you that I am one less future customer.
Good post
Good post.
...not necessarily - I just felt like joining in! :D
Marco.
banjoman
16-09-2014, 19:19
I am surprised John Wood mentions he does not make amps with remote controls.
Here's a link to a J Wood amp that was listed for sale on the Wam - with a remote control.
I remember this simply because I was seriously considering buying it because of the remote control feature.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?108612-J-Wood-intergrated&highlight=wood+amp
Interesting.... I shall ask John about that.
Btw, Deba, where are you from in the UK? We ask that all members put the area that they live in next to their country of origin on their profiles. Please do that at your earliest convenience. Ta! :)
Marco.
Fibs will out in the end, eh? I forgot about that one being sold
banjoman
16-09-2014, 19:47
Thanks for pointing out Marco.
Updated location
Interesting.... I shall ask John about that.
Btw, Deba, where are you from in the UK? We ask that all members put the area that they live in next to their country of origin on their profiles. Please do that at your earliest convenience. Ta! :)
Marco.
PaulStewart
16-09-2014, 19:48
Paul, I don't think you get it. No matter what the law says, this is a civil case, not a criminal one, and so far that has got Geoff and John nowhere. John seems able to avoid the bailiffs and Geoff has to lay out more money to get private bailiffs involved. Good luck with that.
Furthermore do you really believe that County Court Judges are highly qualified and always make good decisions. A little naive I think.
A solution is required, not a procrastination of who is legally right or wrong.
Clive
Clive it's you that doesn't get it, to take your points in order
1) My late mother was a highly qualified legal secretary (specialising in patent and property law) so I grew up knowing the difference between a Civil and a Criminal case.
2) If Geoff appoints private bailiffs, they have the right to add their fees and costs to the distraint and will take goods for auction accordingly.
3) Six of my close relatives are either solicitors, barristers or advocates in the scottish courts and two of these are Judges and I know how long it took them to qualify. You have to be a solicitor or a barrister practising for at least five years after years of law school, articles or pupilage. Then after further exams The Judicial Appointments Commission, decides if they have the experience to be a judge. So yes, they are bloody highly qualified
I think it's you who is naive or I'm sorry to say foolish. The law is the law and should be upheld. Geoff I'm happy to recommend you bailiffs who have recovered money for me in the past if you wish to instruct them.
Thanks for pointing out Marco.
Updated location
Thanks Deba! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Thetiminator
16-09-2014, 19:52
I am surprised John Wood mentions he does not make amps with remote controls.
Here's a link to a J Wood amp that was listed for sale on the Wam - with a remote control.
I remember this simply because I was seriously considering buying it because of the remote control feature.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?108612-J-Wood-intergrated&highlight=wood+amp
Oops.
Clive197
16-09-2014, 19:55
Clive it's you that doesn't get it, to take your points in order
1) My late mother was a highly qualified legal secretary (specialising in patent and property law) so I grew up knowing the difference between a Civil and a Criminal case.
2) If Geoff appoints private bailiffs, they have the right to add their fees and costs to the distraint and will take goods for auction accordingly.
3) Six of my close relatives are either solicitors, barristers or advocates in the scottish courts and two of these are Judges and I know how long it took them to qualify. You have to be a solicitor or a barrister practising for at least five years after years of law school, articles or pupilage. Then after further exams The Judicial Appointments Commission, decides if they have the experience to be a judge. So yes, they are bloody highly qualified
I think it's you who is naive or I'm sorry to say foolish. The law is the law and should be upheld, Geoff I'm happy to recommend you bailiffs who have recovered money for me in the past if you wish to instruct them.
Oh dear I must have hit a raw nerve. SHOUTING about the law is not very constructive to this saga. Perhaps you could get one of your close relatives to sort out the mess.
Clive
Hi Clive,
With respect, the tone of your last post to Paul wasn't the friendliest, and a little confrontational. I know, however, that it wouldn't have been intentional, but if I picked up on that so probably did Paul, which is subsequently most likely why the tone of his reply to you was a little 'tetchy'.
The hazards sometimes of the written word, eh! :doh:
Marco.
Eagle owl
16-09-2014, 20:39
This is what Mr Wood said about amplifiers with remote controls.
2) I don't and have never made remote volume power amps which was his first enquiry .
He's talking about power amps not integrated.
This is how I replied.
Not true, my original and only enquiry related to integrated amplifiers, Mr Wood quoted a price of £1,200.00, I asked whether he could build me one with a remote control, and he replied he could do one with remote volume control only for £1,300.00
jandl100
17-09-2014, 09:06
Yes, it is very concerning that reference was clearly originally made to power amps, and "trial by forum" ensued to miss out on that very important point.
There's a lot wrong with what is going on in this thread, imho, so easy to get it wrong through casual mistakes. :(
Thorny one this, double edged sword on forum involvement on an ongoing legal matter I'd say, but hey ho.
To me, it really highlights the importance to get a SPECIFIC specification etc of what your buying on your invoice.
Good luck to both parties, always 3 sides to every story.
It is not an ongoing legal matter - the legal matter has been fully resolved by the court. If it was ongoing it wouldn't have been hosted here.
sq225917
17-09-2014, 09:36
Like I said earlier, John either pays up and collects, or deals with the baliffs and the huge effect on his business. end of story really.
Yes, it is very concerning that reference was clearly originally made to power amps, and "trial by forum" ensued to miss out on that very important point.
There's a lot wrong with what is going on in this thread, imho, so easy to get it wrong through casual mistakes. :(
Except this casual mistake has left Geoff deeply out of pocket, in possession of faulty goods plus he is dealing with a vendor who clearly has no respect for the law. Ah well, it's only money eh?
jandl100
17-09-2014, 11:17
Except this casual mistake has left Geoff deeply out of pocket, in possession of faulty goods plus he is dealing with a vendor who clearly has no respect for the law. Ah well, it's only money eh?
That's not what I said, and not what I meant, Dave.
You have made a huge leap in assumption concerning something that you actually know nothing about.
Yet another example of the ills of "trial by forum".
This isn't 'trial by forum'. The case has been to court and it has found Mr Wood's defence to be unconvincing. Based on what we have here so far from both parties I would agree with that. Mr Wood needs to pay in full and arrange collection of his amplifier. Hopefully highlighting the issue here will result in that happy conclusion being reached.
Jerry, the object of this exercise wasn’t to conduct a ‘trial by forum’, but simply to allow both parties, the buyer and seller, to put their respective sides of the story in the dispute, in an attempt to reach an amicable solution to the matter.
The former has duly been achieved, although sadly the latter looks unlikely.
However, I think it’s important that people have access to a platform, such as AoS, in order to express their concerns when situations like these arise, and providing that no ‘witch hunts’ are carried out (we always recognise that there are always two sides to every story) and discussions are conducted in a respectful and constructive manner, we’re happy to host them.
It’s about giving people a voice, and I believe very strongly in that :)
Marco.
That's not what I said, and not what I meant, Dave.
You have made a huge leap in assumption concerning something that you actually know nothing about.
Yet another example of the ills of "trial by forum".
I love you too Jerry... :kiss: :D
It is not an ongoing legal matter - the legal matter has been fully resolved by the court. If it was ongoing it wouldn't have been hosted here.
Ah, wasn't aware o' that.
Eagle owl
18-09-2014, 15:43
Just something to add, point 6 on the list of 'bullet' points Mr Wood emailed to Marco.
6) He never paid me for the shipping witch cost me £160.00 witch he ordered at the last minute.(copied and pasted)
Today I've looked at the labels on the box containing the amplifier, there is one large label and a smaller one stuck on top of that, the larger label shows Parcel Monkey and Nightfreight.
After doing that I went onto the Parcel Monkey website and entered the dimensions and weight of the parcel in order to get a collection and delivery quote, the quote was £18.22 inclusive of VAT. ;)
That is quite a discrepancy... :stalks:
Ammonite Audio
18-09-2014, 15:50
Did you also enter the appropriate insurance value? That's what typically adds to the carriage charge.
Just something to add, point 6 on the list of 'bullet' points Mr Wood emailed to Marco.
6) He never paid me for the shipping witch cost me £160.00 witch he ordered at the last minute.(copied and pasted)
Today I've looked at the labels on the box containing the amplifier, there is one large label and a smaller one stuck on top of that, the larger label shows Parcel Monkey and Nightfreight.
After doing that I went onto the Parcel Monkey website and entered the dimensions and weight of the parcel in order to get a collection and delivery quote, the quote was £18.22 inclusive of VAT. ;)
Parcelforce is £12+vat for £1500 cover.(insurance)
Thetiminator
18-09-2014, 16:08
Just something to add, point 6 on the list of 'bullet' points Mr Wood emailed to Marco.
6) He never paid me for the shipping witch cost me £160.00 witch he ordered at the last minute.(copied and pasted)
Today I've looked at the labels on the box containing the amplifier, there is one large label and a smaller one stuck on top of that, the larger label shows Parcel Monkey and Nightfreight.
After doing that I went onto the Parcel Monkey website and entered the dimensions and weight of the parcel in order to get a collection and delivery quote, the quote was £18.22 inclusive of VAT. ;)
I was going to say that £160.00 for shipping is crazy and didn't sound right. You can ship a car for £300!!!!
I've shipped a few big and heavy things recently (up to 100kg) and the most it's ever been is £100....and that's across the water. For something around 30kg you're looking at £30 ish.
For £18 I'd be very surprised if it was insured too....
One could almost insure the Treasury with the discrepancy between those figures... :lol:
Eagle owl
18-09-2014, 16:41
Did you also enter the appropriate insurance value? That's what typically adds to the carriage charge.
No Hugo, I couldn't see anything about insurance, perhaps I missed it. So, add a few more pounds for insurance and it's still way, way short of £160.00
Geoff, has the exposure on the other forum or fora where you have told this very sorry tale resulted in any different results? i.e has Mr Wood given the same responses. Have the bailiffs got their finger out yet?
Eagle owl
18-09-2014, 17:11
Geoff, has the exposure on the other forum or fora where you have told this very sorry tale resulted in any different results? i.e has Mr Wood given the same responses. Have the bailiffs got their finger out yet?
Hi Rob,
The only other forum I posted this tale on is the Wam. The thread was closed after post 40, I believe it was in case things got out of hand, James allowed me to post the thread.
Hi Rob,
I the only other forum I posted this tale on is the Wam. The thread was closed after post 40, I believe it was in case things got out of hand, James allowed me to post the thread.
I expect the wam thread was closed because of the way the whole CE certification thing went. It wasn't pretty. And just like this thread, Mr Wood has declined to get involved. God above.:doh:
Sad story indeed, not sure if its been asked and as it's so Far down the line it probably matters not, but is it not plausible the the said fault ( low level hum) which I presume was the catalyst for the op requesting a refund could be due to transit damage ie, a faulty / damaged valve
Eagle owl
18-09-2014, 18:49
Sad story indeed, not sure if its been asked and as it's so Far down the line it probably matters not, but is it not plausible the the said fault ( low level hum) which I presume was the catalyst for the op requesting a refund could be due to transit damage ie, a faulty / damaged valve
That is a possibility, one of the transformers was leaning to one side by a minute amount but was still firmly fixed to the base.
That is a possibility, one of the transformers was leaning to one side by a minute amount but was still firmly fixed to the base.
Geoff, it matters not if the thing turned up at your door, built inside out and painted pink! It might be an earth loop or a hundred other things in your system causing the hum.
Nope, the issue here is one of gentlemanly conduct, or lack of, being that you didn't get what you asked and paid for. Then, and enforced by 2 court rulings in your favour, this lovely chap is saying F*** you to the courts too.
I used to run my own company, we supplied parts and accessories for classic and sports cars. For many years I was like Mr Wood. I genuinely believed that the customers were idiots and the only person that knew what he was doing was me. I would argue to the death on each and every return or complaint. I avoided refunds to the very last possible moment. Business was ok, but never did more that pay the bills. After long conversations with other retailers, reading many many articles by my peers and taking a very long hard look at both myself and the business, I did a complete U turn and introduced a 100%, no quibble, 90 day returns policy. 100% of your money back, no questions, no arguments, no limitations, just a straight refund.
In the following year, our turnover and profit doubled. In fact, it doubled, year on year for that and the next five years and within ten years we sold the business to a group of venture capitalists for a very high seven figure sum.
In business, as, I think, in life, the first loss is the best loss. Refund the money, all of it, and move on. As a businessman, it goes completely against the grain, but I can assure you it is the the best, if not the only, way to run a successful business.
Reading stories like this sadden me greatly, I am sure that John Wood is a genuine, honest and passionate man who sadly is just not cut out for running a business unless he can understand the above lesson, act on it and move forward.
Val
I used to run my own company, we supplied parts and accessories for classic and sports cars. For many years I was like Mr Wood. I genuinely believed that the customers were idiots and the only person that knew what he was doing was me. I would argue to the death on each and every return or complaint. I avoided refunds to the very last possible moment. Business was ok, but never did more that pay the bills. After long conversations with other retailers, reading many many articles by my peers and taking a very long hard look at both myself and the business, I did a complete U turn and introduced a 100%, no quibble, 90 day returns policy. 100% of your money back, no questions, no arguments, no limitations, just a straight refund.
In the following year, our turnover and profit doubled. In fact, it doubled, year on year for that and the next five years and within ten years we sold the business to a group of venture capitalists for a very high seven figure sum.
In business, as, I think, in life, the first loss is the best loss. Refund the money, all of it, and move on. As a businessman, it goes completely against the grain, but I can assure you it is the the best, if not the only, way to run a successful business.
Reading stories like this sadden me greatly, I am sure that John Wood is a genuine, honest and passionate man who sadly is just not cut out for running a business unless he can understand the above lesson, act on it and move forward.
Fantastic post, Val! :clap: :clap:
Superb advice, and how true. That’s exactly how I’ve run my own (successful) business, as from day one I realised that you have to be a people person first, and an ‘expert’ (on the products you’re selling) second!
Marco.
Very true customer service is everything in retail but worth keeping a bit perspective, as far as I can see in both threads that have ran on hear and the wam I cannot recall any other posters that have had any bad dealings with Mr woods this is one incident, granted one too many in the eyes of most but neither the less one incident, is it not?
Very true customer service is everything in retail but worth keeping a bit perspective, as far as I can see in both threads that have ran on hear and the wam I cannot recall any other posters that have had any bad dealings with Mr woods this is one incident, granted one too many in the eyes of most but neither the less one incident, is it not?
And yet that one incident was considered serious enough by a British court for it to issue a ruling against Mr Wood. I'm afraid there is no middle ground here, the judgement has been issued and Mr Wood needs to abide by it or else he will find himself even deeper in the mire, it's that simple...
And yet that one incident was considered serious enough by a British court for it to issue a ruling against Mr Wood. I'm afraid there is no middle ground here, the judgement has been issued and Mr Wood needs to abide by it or else he will find himself even deeper in the mire. It's that simple...
A judgment is one thing, but enforcing it is another. A great many Court Orders are futile. Presumably Eagle Owl did not find enforcement that simple or else or he would not have posted here and on the Wam.
A judgment is one thing, but enforcing it is another. A great many Court Orders are futile. Presumably Eagle Owl did not find enforcement that simple or else or he would not have posted here and on the Wam.
True enough, however in the long term Mr Woods previously good reputation continues to be eroded by his own intransigence. As has been highlighted in several posts now, it is not too late for him to avoid becoming the architect of his own downfall, but he needs to pull his finger out.
Posted a lathe stand on a pallet today.
102kg @£75
An amp should be £20 ish.
awkwardbydesign
19-09-2014, 19:24
Posted a lathe stand on a pallet today.
102kg @£75
An amp should be £20 ish.
Don't forget the insurance. I had to post back a faulty Vincent amp (about 30kg) and with insurance it cost about £50. Still not £160 though.
Think we pay £10 extra for a grands insurance.
PaulStewart
20-09-2014, 12:15
Think we pay £10 extra for a grands insurance.
So do we, the guy is in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks £160 is the right cost unless he has shipping crates made, which we know he did not.
In my opinion, the OP should now seek a bankruptcy order against the plaintiff, that and the court freezing his bank accounts generally focuses the attention. However, I have also sent the OP the names of two firms of bailiffs I have used to get payment in the past, who have proved very effective.
Best of luck
Lodgesound
20-09-2014, 17:05
I have stayed out of this thus far and read all comments with interest.
In conclusion I would say if it were myself at the John Wood end of things I would simply have offered a no quibble refund of the entire amount on reciept of the faulty unit.
This is a policy I adopt on all transactions within my company - I would rather have satisfied customers than disgruntled ones - my only requirement would be reciept of the offending item upon which I would issue a full refund inclusive of shipping.
I hasten to add that I would not release ANY funds until such receipt.
awkwardbydesign
20-09-2014, 21:02
I have stayed out of this thus far and read all comments with interest.
In conclusion I would say if it were myself at the John Wood end of things I would simply have offered a no quibble refund of the entire amount on reciept of the faulty unit.
This is a policy I adopt on all transactions within my company - I would rather have satisfied customers than disgruntled ones - my only requirement would be reciept of the offending item upon which I would issue a full refund inclusive of shipping.
I hasten to add that I would not release ANY funds until such receipt.
Unfortunately the OP's experience so far doesn't encourage him to pay for returning the amp BEFORE receiving a refund. John Wood has ignored a court ruling, so would YOU trust him?
PaulStewart
20-09-2014, 21:16
Unfortunately the OP's experience so far doesn't encourage him to pay for returning the amp BEFORE receiving a refund. John Wood has ignored a court ruling, so would YOU trust him?
:exactly:
Lodgesound
20-09-2014, 21:34
I have to admit that although testamonially uncharacteristic that the evidence thus far would lead me to distrust him regrettably yes.
Lodgesound
20-09-2014, 21:39
So maybe then Mr. Wood should advance things by say offering a 45% advance against the return of the goods.....the balance to be paid upon receipt.
Alternatively can the OP not actually take the amplifier to Mr. Wood personally and arrange for a cash payment upon arrival?
Sorry chaps but something just does not sit right here - am I the only one who feels this?
Seriously with the sum of money concerned I would have paid a personal visit by mutual agreement way before this regardless of distance.
Maybe such a visit could lead to the amp being fixed fairly quickly by the designer and manufacturer - after all it was wanted by the OP in the first place was it not?
Before anybody bites by the way...I am not siding here - I just find parts of the saga a little odd.
Seriously with the sum of money concerned I would have paid a personal visit by mutual agreement way before this.
I think from what he has said previously this is not an option for Geoff. Both parties have stated they do not trust the other so neither will make the first move either re-paying or returning the amp, so as I see it the only way for a resolution without resorting to the High Court would be for a third party, trusted by both of the principles, to both receive the amplifier and the money and distribute them accordingly. Then report the matter as settled to the court.
If it would help bring an end to this matter, I would happily accept that role.
Marco.
Clive197
20-09-2014, 22:26
I think from what he has said previously this is not an option for Geoff. Both parties have stated they do not trust the other so neither will make the first move either re-paying or returning the amp, so as I see it the only way for a resolution without resorting to the High Court would be for a third party, trusted by both of the principles, to both receive the amplifier and the money and distribute them accordingly. Then report the matter as settled to the court.
I suggested that in post 129
Clive
I think from what he has said previously this is not an option for Geoff. Both parties have stated they do not trust the other so neither will make the first move either re-paying or returning the amp, so as I see it the only way for a resolution without resorting to the High Court would be for a third party, trusted by both of the principles, to both receive the amplifier and the money and distribute them accordingly. Then report the matter as settled to the court.
Actually I would have already offered to use my Trust Account for that purpose, had I been local. My solution would have been along these lines:
The full price is paid into a Solicitors Trust Account. The solicitor holds the funds as stakeholder.
That money is held on Trust and is to be disbursed as follows:
The Vendor will arrange collection of the Amp, it being his responsibility for the cost and insurance of that;
He will then undertake all the repairs necessary to provide the goods as initially agreed. It can include parts that are not new (excluding valves) providing they are in perfect working order.
The Vendor will then have the goods as repaired returned to the Purchaser, again transport and insurance to be to the Vendor's account.
14 days after the return the Purchaser will advise the stakeholder to release the funds to the Vendor OR he will provide the Vendor with a written opinion from an expert that the Amp is not of the quality as per the original agreement.
(The expert will be any person mutually agreed to by the parties, and failing agreement will be a reputable High Street dealer appointed by one of the mods here. The expert will be paid for from the funds in Trust.)
If the opinion of the expert is that the Amp is not of sufficient quality then the Amplifier is to be returned by the Purchaser to the Vendor, with the cost of delivery and insurance to come from the funds in Trust. The balance of the funds held by the Stakeholder are to be paid to the Purchaser.
In either event, the Court proceeding, is to be regarded as settled.
That is a framework only and should have built into it some ability to deal with minor variations, for example the timing of some steps.
This obviously involves both parties getting less than what they hope for. That is normal.
I suggested that in post 129
Clive
Just seen that. Pragmatic.
I suggested that in post 129
Clive
And a very good suggestion it was. Indeed it seems the only way to resolve this without High Court enforcement. Marco has offered to act as a go-between, which is a considerable commitment, so I don't see why this could not go ahead as things stand.
Lodgesound
20-09-2014, 22:43
2 very kind offers from Marco and Andrei which I feel should be more than seriously considered now.
Going via either of these totally trustworthy third parties a resolution should be imminently forthcoming.
Marco has offered to act as a go-between, which is a considerable commitment, so I don't see why this could not go ahead as things stand.
If I can genuinely help, I’d be glad to. All I need to know is exactly what to do, and for the two parties involved to make contact, and we’re good to go! :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
21-09-2014, 12:37
I think from what he has said previously this is not an option for Geoff. Both parties have stated they do not trust the other so neither will make the first move either re-paying or returning the amp, so as I see it the only way for a resolution without resorting to the High Court would be for a third party, trusted by both of the principles, to both receive the amplifier and the money and distribute them accordingly. Then report the matter as settled to the court.
I also offer to look after the money. But I don't claim to be trustworthy. :eyebrows:
Thetiminator
21-09-2014, 17:23
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?111185-Wanted-John-Wood-valve-amp
Couldn't resist posting it ;)
awkwardbydesign
21-09-2014, 20:20
He will then undertake all the repairs necessary to provide the goods as initially agreed. It can include parts that are not new (excluding valves) providing they are in perfect working order.
The Vendor will then have the goods as repaired returned to the Purchaser, again transport and insurance to be to the Vendor's account.
Isn't part of the problem that it wasn't a new amplifier, but second hand? I don't think that is repairable!
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?111185-Wanted-John-Wood-valve-amp
Couldn't resist posting it ;)
For what purpose? Other than to try and destroy sales efforts by current owners that is. The chap hasn't bunged a wanted ad on wam looking for a new one.:doh:
Eagle owl
23-09-2014, 16:10
I used to run my own company, we supplied parts and accessories for classic and sports cars. For many years I was like Mr Wood. I genuinely believed that the customers were idiots and the only person that knew what he was doing was me. I would argue to the death on each and every return or complaint. I avoided refunds to the very last possible moment. Business was ok, but never did more that pay the bills. After long conversations with other retailers, reading many many articles by my peers and taking a very long hard look at both myself and the business, I did a complete U turn and introduced a 100%, no quibble, 90 day returns policy. 100% of your money back, no questions, no arguments, no limitations, just a straight refund.
In the following year, our turnover and profit doubled. In fact, it doubled, year on year for that and the next five years and within ten years we sold the business to a group of venture capitalists for a very high seven figure sum.
In business, as, I think, in life, the first loss is the best loss. Refund the money, all of it, and move on. As a businessman, it goes completely against the grain, but I can assure you it is the the best, if not the only, way to run a successful business.
Reading stories like this sadden me greatly, I am sure that John Wood is a genuine, honest and passionate man who sadly is just not cut out for running a business unless he can understand the above lesson, act on it and move forward.
Val
Hi Val,
Mr wood I'm sure, builds very good amplifiers, that's why I placed an order with him after reading glowing reports on the Wam, I'm also sure he's passionate about what he does, however, he's certainly not honest.
So, Geoffrey, what do you intend to do about my offer? If you accept it, I will contact John and see if he’s in agreement.
Then we can hopefully bring this sorry mess to an end without any further involvement from the courts! :)
Marco.
Eagle owl
23-09-2014, 16:36
So, Geoffrey, what do you intend to do about my offer? If you accept it, I will contact John and see if he’s in agreement.
Then we can hopefully bring this sorry mess to an end without any further involvement from the courts! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
thank you, it's very kind of you, however, I doubt that Mr Wood will be interested to be honest.
Well, we’ll soon find out when I phone him! ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
thank you, it's very kind of you, however, I doubt that Mr Wood will be interested to be honest.
Even so Geoff, the door is open a crack so surely it would be worth taking a peek, don't you think? :) This way the transaction is facilitated through a trusted third party thus neatly sidestepping the aura of personal mistrust which has developed between yourself and John. It needs the two of you to subscribe to this in order to finally put this nightmare to rest...
Any progress with getting this concluded?
Nope, because I’ve still to get hold of John - been too busy. Don’t worry, I’ll update the thread as soon as I’ve made contact with him :)
Marco.
I used to run my own company, we supplied parts and accessories for classic and sports cars. For many years I was like Mr Wood. I genuinely believed that the customers were idiots and the only person that knew what he was doing was me. I would argue to the death on each and every return or complaint. I avoided refunds to the very last possible moment. Business was ok, but never did more that pay the bills.
Reading stories like this sadden me greatly, I am sure that John Wood is a genuine, honest and passionate man who sadly is just not cut out for running a business unless he can understand the above lesson, act on it and move forward.
Val
I can think of a sales director of a manufacturer of little active speakers that has felt this way about dealers and customers for twenty five years or so - and went online-selling as a result. Fortunately for him, their products are generally extremely reliable and long lived, but 'party' the products at your peril if they've been 'developed further' since purchase!
Sad for me, because the products do have merit IMO...
Yes, Ashley James of AVI (and his even more ‘ancient’ side-kick, JC) fit that grossly arrogant and dogmatic business model rather well :)
They’re very lucky that there’s a market currently for their boring little ‘speakerettes’!
Marco.
Yes, Ashley James of AVI (and his even more ‘ancient’ side-kick, JC) fit that grossly arrogant and dogmatic business model rather well :)
They’re very lucky that there’s a market currently for their boring little ‘speakerettes’!
Marco.
They'll be 'Legacy' products next year, and nobody at AVI will want to know when they go tits up, or someone needs something as simple as a manual!
Ain’t that the truth! :D
Marco.
Still awaiting a reply from John to my email…. I’ll give him until the weekend and then try phoning him.
Marco.
Just read this entire thread, absolutely shocking treatment and bleeding glaringly obvious that the amp guy doesn't want to pay a penny.
This will cost him dear BTW.
Marco you know how I was treated in a similar fashion by a similar operator although in saying that I do believe the guy I had the problem with did have serious issues and genuinely got himself into a really bad situation however to this day he has never apologised and I am a bit ashamed to say that I sold his amp as soon as I could becuase I had no faith in the on-going warranty or customer service issues.
Geoff don't fuck about with this guy, go for the jugular and go back to court for a bankruptcy order as Paul Stewart suggested.
Best of luck OP.
Tony
BTW, who in thier right mind would send a £1400 amp back to a conman and a liar without the money up front?
Eagle owl
10-10-2014, 05:51
Just read this entire thread, absolutely shocking treatment and bleeding glaringly obvious that the amp guy doesn't want to pay a penny.
This will cost him dear BTW.
Marco you know how I was treated in a similar fashion by a similar operator although in saying that I do believe the guy I had the problem with did have serious issues and genuinely got himself into a really bad situation however to this day he has never apologised and I am a bit ashamed to say that I sold his amp as soon as I could becuase I had no faith in the on-going warranty or customer service issues.
Geoff don't fuck about with this guy, go for the jugular and go back to court for a bankruptcy order as Paul Stewart suggested.
Best of luck OP.
Tony
BTW, who in thier right mind would send a £1400 amp back to a conman and a liar without the money up front?
Thank you Tony.
I contacted the County Court bailiff's office yesterday morning and was told they'd attended Mr Wood's address recently, the person they spoke to said he no longer lived there.
Thank you Tony.
I contacted the County Court bailiff's office yesterday morning and was told they'd attended Mr Wood's address recently, the person they spoke to said he no longer lived there.
Did they believe that....they must have been fed that line so many times.
Just had this in from John this morning (don’t really know what to make of it):
Well first the courts have to be dealt with he put it there so he can take it away and then return the amp to me for a refund as I said in the first place we could have dun this a long time ago ,,as I have said to you before,, if I ever get into court with him he will lose everything and have some large costs and slander will have to be answered to by him
and thanks for your time Marco
John.
From that, it doesn’t seem that he wants to go down the route I’ve suggested….
Marco.
Silly man! What little reputation he might have been clinging on to just wafted out the window... :doh:
Thank you Tony.
I contacted the County Court bailiff's office yesterday morning and was told they'd attended Mr Wood's address recently, the person they spoke to said he no longer lived there.
Hi Geoff, sorry mate but it looks as though you've landed a right slippery bstard so there's only two options open to you now, well three actually, you can let it drop, go the legal route to the bitter end or sell on the debt .
Really feel for you mate.
Personally I would try to get some money back by getting the amp repaired properly then selling it on and taking the hit on it and at least that way you will get some money back but don't let the court thing come to an end even if you do nothing in that regard make sure that you fight him every step of the way if he goes to court.
Good luck
Tony
Just had this in from John this morning (don’t really know what to make of it):
From that, it doesn’t seem that he wants to go down the route I’ve suggested….
Marco.
Marco your fighting a losing battle with the guy, you've done all you can mate which, reading the thread, has been above and beyond the call but the guy is just using you now.
He sounds like a complete headcase to me, it will be very very difficult to get money out this guy IMO probably because he ain't got any.
Regards
Tony
Did they believe that....they must have been fed that line so many times.
Aye they probably have which means that the buyer/OP has to move on to the next stage Clive which means escalating the legal process or letting the thing drop, at the end of the day it's all about money and costs.
I went through a similar thing this year with a customer of mine who became completely entrenched and refused point blank to take legal advice three times from solicitors I had employed to try to resolve the situation (debt) and then she finally saw sense when the one of the solictors pointed out how much her intransigence was going to cost her. This took her a year to accept and cost me and my insurance company (it's a long story) about £2,000 over a relatively small debt.
With civil proceedings such as this one of the OP's there is only ever going to be one winner and that ain't going to be either of the two protaganists.
Personally I would have let the solicitors get on with the case and bankrupted the guy if that's what it took to get a resolution but that would undoubtedly have cost a good deal more than the cost of the amp.
Tony
The OP can apply for a charging order to secure his debt against Mr Wood's house if he owns it or a share in it. There are many steps to take before a charging order is made and registered at the Land Registry. If he then tries to force a sale of the property, there are more hurdles to overcome which may not result in him securing an order for sale. Have a look at this very helpful guide by the CAB.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/debt_w/debt_action_your_creditor_can_take_e/charging_orders.htm
The OP could also serve a statutory demand, the first step to make Mr Wood bankrupt, but this combined with the cost of bankruptcy proceedings may only serve to increase the debt and not get the OP his money.
https://www.gov.uk/statutory-demands/overview
The best thing he can do is apply to the court for a hearing to attempt to ascertain if Mr Wood is worth pursuing further.
http://justclaim.co.uk/court-forms/N316-debtor-questioning.html
Lodgesound
12-10-2014, 16:53
Sorry - I have to say this but have neither of you heard of the telephone ?
Seriously this has reached almost comedy show script status now - a number of seriously experienced and very helpful well-meaning individuals have offered to step up and help the pair of you and you STILL refuse to compromise???
Am I the only one here who has lost all sympathy with this?
Honestly I really don't care that that the law has been involved with this - it is and always has been an ass.
The two of you should really be able to resolve this now or just let the whole thing go.
Haselsh1
12-10-2014, 17:02
I'm not sure but sometimes you just have to write things off as a very bad experience and move forward with your life. OK, it leaves a very bitter taste when someone has basically taken you for a grand or more and there seems very little you can do to get that money back but you have to be really careful that what you are not trying to do is get your own back.
If there is a way forward with the law on your side then seriously good luck to you, I hope you get the full amount back but somehow I doubt that you will. I tend to think that this was a big mistake and it has cost you a great deal of money which you have lost. I suggest we all live and learn and move on just as I did when I bought a Chinese valve amplifier and CD player that lasted only two years and cost me around 800 quid combined.
sq225917
12-10-2014, 17:31
Am I the only one here who has lost all sympathy with this?
I doubt it. It's a shame that the buyer doesn't get what he paid for but there's intransigence on both sides here.
I doubt it. It's a shame that the buyer doesn't get what he paid for but there's intransigence on both sides here.
Don't see it myself, I would be pretty f@cked off if I had paid for a new amp/tv/car or whatever and it turned out to be second hand and was faulty.
No there's serious dishonesty at work here and not from the OP who deserves all of the sympathy and I say this as a one man band of 25 years dealing with the public.
Don't get me wrong with some of them you could knock seven shades out of them for the pish they come away with but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Tony
Sorry - I have to say this but have neither of you heard of the telephone ?
Seriously this has reached almost comedy show script status now - a number of seriously experienced and very helpful well-meaning individuals have offered to step up and help the pair of you and you STILL refuse to compromise???
Am I the only one here who has lost all sympathy with this?
Honestly I really don't care that that the law has been involved with this - it is and always has been an ass.
The two of you should really be able to resolve this now or just let the whole thing go.
Very diffucult to communicate when all trust has broken down I'm afraid even worse when solictors become involved and once it reaches court there's really no way back from that.
kenworthy100
12-10-2014, 18:17
Don't see it myself, I would be pretty f@cked off if I had paid for a new amp/tv/car or whatever and it turned out to be second hand and was faulty.
No there's serious dishonesty at work here and not from the OP who deserves all of the sympathy and I say this as a one man band of 25 years dealing with the public.
Don't get me wrong with some of them you could knock seven shades out of them for the pish they come away with but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Tony
+1, completely agree, in the OP's position I would be seriously upset and annoyed.
I'm not sure but sometimes you just have to write things off as a very bad experience and move forward with your life. OK, it leaves a very bitter taste when someone has basically taken you for a grand or more and there seems very little you can do to get that money back but you have to be really careful that what you are not trying to do is get your own back.
Couldn't agree more. Dedicate too much of your life to getting even and the rest of it will pass you by, even though a grand is a lot to kiss goodbye. On the other matter, Mr Wood doesn't seem that proficient at answering the telephone (or even the door for that matter).
No, from what I've seen here my sympathy lies entirely with the OP and I'd guess we can all take away a few lessons from having read this thread.
awkwardbydesign
13-10-2014, 09:06
Seriously this has reached almost comedy show script status now - a number of seriously experienced and very helpful well-meaning individuals have offered to step up and help the pair of you and you STILL refuse to compromise???
Am I the only one here who has lost all sympathy with this?
Honestly I really don't care that that the law has been involved with this - it is and always has been an ass.
The two of you should really be able to resolve this now or just let the whole thing go.
The OP has been cheated. John Wood has his money. I would not let it go if I could afford to fight him; and I could! You don't have to follow this if you don't want too, but personally I have never liked cheats or bullies.
Like others I would now strongly advise against buying from John Wood, so the man has ruined his reputation by being stupid.
Eagle owl
13-10-2014, 12:33
Hello guys,
I've received a letter from the Nottingham bailiff the contents of which are as follows.
To the Creditor
TAKE NOTICE that the WARRANT in this action has not been executed for the following reasons:-
The bailiff visited the debtor's address which you provided but was told by the occupant that the debtor had left.
The debtor has left no saleable goods there. Local enquiries have not indicated the debtor's whereabouts or movements and the bailiff has no information about where the debtor may be. In the circumstances the bailiff cannot do more unless you are able to provide further information to re-issue the warrant (for example, the debtor's new address) . You may have to pay a fee to re-issue the warrant.
The warrant has been returned to the court which issued it.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do now, I don't really want to throw more money at the case as there's no guarantee I will ever get the money owed to me by Mr Wood. I may just take the hit and put it down to one of life's bad experiences which occur from time to time. I'm tempted to smash the amplifier with a large, heavy hammer and dump the remains at the local tip.
I would like to thank everyone who has shown support for me in this thread and offered advice, I would also like to thank Marco for allowing this thread and offering to be a mediator.
Best wishes
Geoff.
Don't give up on it. People like this need to get their commupence otherwise they just carry on and do it to someone else. Unless he is an expert with a few quid behind him (and I doubt it) he will not be able to vanish without trace. If you haven't already done it get the High Court Sheriff involved.
Quite surprised by some of the posts here suggesting there is fault on both sides. The fact is that the matter could have been settled by Wood returning the money and Geoff returning the amplifier via a trusted third party (Marco). Wood refused to go along with that, making it pretty clear who is in the wrong here.
Hello guys,
TAKE NOTICE that the WARRANT in this action has not been executed for the following reasons:-
I'm not sure what I'm going to do now, I don't really want to throw more money at the case as there's no guarantee I will ever get the money owed to me by Mr Wood. I may just take the hit and put it down to one of life's bad experiences which occur from time to time. I'm tempted to smash the amplifier with a large, heavy hammer and dump the remains at the local tip.
Geoff.
If you want to take it further through the court then I would suggest you look at my last post regarding getting Mr Wood to court to ascertain his financial position. However, in order to do that he has to be served with the application. The bailiff is happy with the information given to him by a third party (wife?) that he does not live there. The bailiff will not be able to serve the application to get him to court. You would have to ascertain where he is before being able to pursue the matter further.
If it were me I would not bother to take the matter further. By doing so it keeps the sense of injustice alive (in the vain hope that you will get justice) and which festers and will only serve to make you unhappy.
Your suggestion of a hammer is probably the best. Get a good weighty lump hammer, not a silly panel pin job:D
I'm not sure what I'm going to do now, I don't really want to throw more money at the case as there's no guarantee I will ever get the money owed to me by Mr Wood. I may just take the hit and put it down to one of life's bad experiences which occur from time to time. I'm tempted to smash the amplifier with a large, heavy hammer and dump the remains at the local tip.
Although it may be tempting to smash it to bits Geoff, and god knows I don't think any of us would blame you if you did, why not bite the bullet and cast around to see if someone on here can take a look at the amp for you to see what needs doing to bring it up to standard? That way if it is an easy fix you will end up with a functioning amp you can keep or sell on, either way it will help soften the blow somewhat ;)
Ali Tait
13-10-2014, 13:36
Yep. I can ask Nick if he'll have a look at it for you?
I know you 've had a lot of hassle over it, but don' t cut your nose off to spite your face.
Clive197
13-10-2014, 13:37
Although it may be tempting to smash it to bits Geoff, and god knows I don't think any of us would blame you if you did, why not bite the bullet and cast around to see if someone on here can take a look at the amp for you to see what needs doing to bring it up to standard? That way if it is an easy fix you will end up with a functioning amp you can keep or sell on, either way it will help soften the blow somewhat ;)
+1. :goodluck:
Gordon Steadman
13-10-2014, 13:38
Although it may be tempting to smash it to bits Geoff, and god knows I don't think any of us would blame you if you did, why not bite the bullet and cast around to see if someone on here can take a look at the amp for you to see what needs doing to bring it up to standard? That way if it is an easy fix you will end up with a functioning amp you can keep or sell on, either way it will help soften the blow somewhat ;)
100% agree with this. You could get a quote for fixing it anyway from a commercial repairer. At least you would know where you stand. Alan on here (Firebottle) would probably take 5 minutes to suss out what is wrong with it and I'm sure there are others well qualified to do the same.
Yes, I think I would get someone to look at it, it may well be repairable. Sell the debt on if you can and move on.
Spectral Morn
13-10-2014, 13:43
Why not get one of the BBC consumer programs involved like RIP Off Britain, Watch Dog - it would be something different for them to get involved in - just a thought.
Regards Neil
I'm happy to chip a 'donation' in for 'legal' fees.
I hate cnuts like this amp guy.
Tony
By doing so...
By taking the matter further? Or choosing not to take the matter further?
By taking the matter further? Or choosing not to take the matter further?
Taking the matter further keeps it alive in your mind with all the stresses that that can involve. It would stress me out and I used to take people to court for a living!
I don't post on here very often these days, but I just had to make an exception in this case.
Don't let the sod get away with it! I had a similar problem with a debtor not paying in the past. I elevated it to the High Court and sent in the Sheriffs. Those chaps can easily differentiate between 'can't pay and won't pay'. I used an outfit like this to track the debtor down:
http://www.findermonkey.co.uk/debtor-tracing?gclid=CNGMmbGxrMECFSuWtAodGCQAWA
I got paid all the money owed, plus all costs.
Make his life a misery, just as he's done to you. Good luck!
anthonyTD
14-10-2014, 15:34
hi all,
Well, just come back to this thread after being away for a little while, i can only Sympathise with Geoff, and for what its worth, i would like to appologise to him for doubting him in all this, And as a good will gesture, if you can get the amp to me, then i would be happy to inspect it, and offer my services to help in repairing it. :)
Anthony,TD...
I would definitely take Anthony up on that, Geoff! :)
Marco.
hi all,
Well, just come back to this thread after being away for a little while, i can only Sympathise with Geoff, and for what its worth, i would like to appologise to him for doubting him in all this, And as a good will gesture, if you can get the amp to me, then i would be happy to inspect it, and offer my services to help in repairing it. :)
Anthony,TD...
nice gesture Anthony....:)
nice gesture Anthony....:)
Aye spot on Anthony...:)
Eagle owl
15-10-2014, 13:17
I'm happy to chip a 'donation' in for 'legal' fees.
I hate cnuts like this amp guy.
Tony
Thank you, that's a kind offer Tony but I couldn't possibly accept.
brian2957
15-10-2014, 13:20
Nice offer Anthony , that's what this forum is all about .
Eagle owl
15-10-2014, 13:21
hi all,
Well, just come back to this thread after being away for a little while, i can only Sympathise with Geoff, and for what its worth, i would like to appologise to him for doubting him in all this, And as a good will gesture, if you can get the amp to me, then i would be happy to inspect it, and offer my services to help in repairing it. :)
Anthony,TD...
No apology is necessary Anthony but thank you anyway. I may take you up on your offer in respect of the amp in the future, thank you again.
Eagle owl
15-10-2014, 13:34
I still can't decide on the way forward, however, I contacted the company that allocates cases to the High Court Enforcement Agents featured in the television programme 'Can't Pay ? We'll Take It Away' and the following is part of their reply.
Dear Geoffrey,
Thank you for your enquiry.
In order for us to obtain a High Court Writ of Control the County Court Judgment needs to be under 6 years old and for a value of not less than £600.00 including Court costs.
Should you wish to proceed you will need to complete the attached Instruction form and return this to us along with a copy of the County Court Judgment and anything else that you feel may help our High Court Enforcement Agent in his pursuit of the debt. We will also require a Court fee payment of £60.00 per case.
Once we receive your instruction we will obtain the sealed Court paperwork for you and allocate the case out to one of our High Court Enforcement Agents for execution.
The Debtor pays our fees in full.
If we are unsuccessful there will be a cost of £90.00 inclusive of VAT, however the Writ is ‘live’ for a year so we do always try our best to obtain payment from the Debtor.
Should you not have an enforcement address for the Defendant we are able to undertake an address trace for £25.00 plus VAT on 'no trace, no fee' basis or an in-depth trace for £45.00 plus VAT again on a 'no trace, no fee' basis.
I have attached a trace instruction form should you need to use this service.
Should you have any additional questions or queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards
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