Loading MM Cartridges.

[Mr Kipling]

Anyone tried loading a mm with anything other than 47K? Found a thread on another forum after Googling where the writer advised using 100K. He had done quite a comprehensive number of comparisons with a number of arms and headshells of various materials on a number of decks including an SP 10 MK2, concluding that 100K sounded "right" compared to 47K.

Oh, and total capacitance including lead found to be 100 - 150pF.

[Stratmangler]

I am failing to get my head around why the turntable or arm is of any consequence with regard to cartridge loading.
The arm cabling capacitance is of significance, but any cable resistance is going to be negligible.

Any chance of a link to the thread?

[walpurgis]

Any change of loading or capacitance is likely to have an influence on the sound. Good or bad? Only experimentation can demonstrate. I'm inclined to think manufacturer's recommendations are likely to be best, but the sound balance of each system is different.

[Mr Kipling]

Well, it started off with the writer asking why mcs tend to be the preferred choice (generally speaking), and set-off on a quest to find out this was the case. Came to the understanding that combination of cart/headshell/arm could be seen as unique to get the best results. Change the headshell and you might end-up with an improvement - or you may not. Comes down to energy transmission paths, I would imagine. Anyway, he investigated loading and came to preference for 100K.

The thread is on AudiogoN: Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC? Can't give a direct link with my mobile as it's quite long to do manually.

[NRG]

I would have thought a 100k loading would be the worst thing you could do, it would probably cause a huge HF resonant peak in the response, even keeping the capacitance low will still cause a lift in the response AFAIU.....it could be the effect is compensating for some other response issue in the replay chain in which case it's treating the symptoms and not the cause.

[The Barbarian]

B&W 'SA/E' SME base connector

[Mr Kipling]

I would have thought a 100k loading would be the worst thing you could do, it would probably cause a huge HF resonant peak in the response, even keeping the capacitance low will still cause a lift in the response AFAIU.....it could be the effect is compensating for some other response issue in the replay chain in which case it's treating the symptoms and not the cause.

Well it's not as if he has limited himself to just one or two cartridges. He has tried quite a number and it is his consistent finding.

[NRG]

Well it's not as if he has limited himself to just one or two cartridges. He has tried quite a number and it is his consistent finding.

True, the http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html is worth reading and experimenting with, maybe a higher loading does work in some cases.

[HarshaDS]

Hi all,
Forgive me as I don't claim any in-depth knowledge of this subject, but as walpurgis pointed out experimentation seems to be the key. I have a AT150mlx on my deck which on my system gave me LESS of what I had through my digital source end, it was very bright and bass shy . Having heard various friends systems with this cartridge I started reading and playing...errr I mean experimenting a bit. I changed my SS fixed 47K phono stage to a tubed one with variable loading. I would say that now I am closer to the same presentation I am getting with my digital side of things. Its definitely got a more pronounced bottom end :eyebrows: but I get to control its presentation through loading so the higher end detail isn't lost.

[louie3]

Nobody ever said playing records was simple.

In the case of the above AT 150 with a sophisticated stylus shape, the bass shy etc sound, sounds to me as if the VTA is off, and with the more sophisticated shapes it does not have to be off by much.

Most, but not all, moving magnet, moving iron etc cartridges are designed to be loaded with 47k ohms. Yes, you can change the sound of the cartridges by fiddling (oh, wait, experimenting) with resistive loading and change the sound, make it different, but there are other factors at play here.

If, as in some phono stages, the capacitive loading is more than say 100 pf at the input, then the additional capacitance presented by the cables and tonearm internal wiring will probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 pf. Most Japanese cartridges specify 100-200 pf, more will cause problems in the upper end of the response.

There are exceptions. For instance most of the Stanton/Pickering cartridges like a capacitive load of 275pf. The 681EEE, being a moving iron cartridge is a little more forgiving of incorrect capacitive loading, but the 881 series wants exactly 275pf.

I am of the opinion that a moving magnet cartridge, with the correct capacitive load can, at 47k ohms resistive load, least equal most affordable moving coils in giving the listener those goosebump moments.

I have been through a bunch of cartridges lately, both moving magnet, moving coil and moving iron... In my system there are things to like about all of them if they are loaded correctly and set up carefully.

I have a several decades old Stanton 681EEE, for instance, that, again, properly loaded and set up, will blow the musical socks off some of the pretty pricey moving coils I have heard in other systems.

Moving coils may very well be simpler (not cheaper, for sure) to load because there is mostly only one variable to deal with, and it is a variable most manufacturers of phono preamps are prepared to help you deal with.

One of the reasons, in my humble opinion, the Denon DL 103 and its many variants are so popular is that the stock stylus shape has a very large acceptable VTA window, you can pretty much just plunk it down and play the record...with the proper resistive load, in the right tonearm.

Playing records ain't easy.

[HarshaDS]

Hi Louis3,
I completely agree about the multiple factors involved in setting up a cartridge correctly. I think I sat in pools of sweat the first time I tried to setup the 150mlx for several days before I gave up and bribed a friend with alcohol to come and help me set-up the cartridge properly. After being given advice on the tools needed, I was told to buy some cheap cartridges and practice mounting and alignment of them till I didn't have a nervous breakdown every time I wanted to change one. The Sure M97xE became my go to standard for learning on and remains my trusty first line of defense against unknown vinyl before the 150mlx is let anywhere near it.

My way to check on if my analog end is giving me the vinyl goodness I desire is by A/B'ing the same music with my source button. All I know is that I'm getting there slowly and I am hearing a marked improvement to the point that I don't question the source that often. It took me a while to work out that there were bad pressings and badly engineered vinyl out there in the world :doh:. As you said "Playing records ain't easy"......and I would add it should come with a health warning and a mandatory sanity check every six months.

[louie3]

Harsha,

I guess I am lucky to have never listened to much of anything other than vinyl. I tried digital in various guises...just did not flip my switch.

One tool I strongly suggest is a decent small bubble level...probably not one of the ones that are round...I have found them to be cheap, but not accurate. You can find a small bubble level on Ebay for less than $10. Carefully place the level on top of the headshell, then carefully cue up a record. With the level pointing toward the pivot of the tonearm, you can tell whether you are level or not and adjust if you can.

Most cartridges want you to at least start setting VTA with the headshell level with the record, but this is harder to get exact by eye than would seem.

If your headshell allows you to adjust azimuth, you can do that with the level also by turning it across the headshell.

I have had a Fozgometer...did not care for it, got the same results with less trouble with the small level.

[Mr Kipling]

Hopefully this link will work if I get it right:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&706&4#706

Hurrah! Second time and it works.

[HarshaDS]

Hi Louie,
Thank you for the sage advice...I will start looking for a decent small spirit level immediately. I'm going to ask a stupid question now, so I give you fair warning before hand........ won't placing any weight on the head shell when the stylus is on the record put undue pressure on the cantilever..? I'm not sure of any of this so I ask before I start making expensive mistakes. :doh:



Dear Mr. Kipling,
I grew up in England so I thank you very much for the Bakewell tarts and Battenberg the cake of my youth....I have fond memories....OK if that's the wrong Mr. Kipling ....errr..... I enjoyed your books very much and think perhaps you based Shere Khan on one my teachers at school, it is a very accurate portrayal. :wheniwasaboy:

Thank you for the link... I have a few records I listen to which give me a feel for the vinyl set-up. I was able to get a copy of "Soil Festivities" by Vangelis which if everything is right gives me goosebumps.... I then runaround looking for an umbrella which means not only is the vinyl doing its job but the meds haven't kicked in :drugs:

[spendorman]

I seem to remember that the Radford SC22 pre-amp used 68K Ohm loading and that was fine with all the cartridges used.

The Radford specification that is on the Radford Revival site seems to confirm this.

http://www.radfordrevival.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/SC22-Leaflet-P8.jpg

[louie3]

The level I use weighs a bit over 1 gram. Has not hurt anything so far, but I am careful. put the level on the headshell, then lower the stylus to the record.