View Full Version : Ortofon Cadenza Blue and KAB modified stock tonearm
I've just managed to get my hands on a real bargain, an almost unused Ortofon Cadenza Blue in pristine condition for less money than a new 2M Black :D
After some hours in an euphoric state, a little doubt appeared in the back of my head; will my current SL1210 setup do this excellent PU justice?
I have a KAB modified stock tonearm with dampening and Cardas wiring, Cardas headshell cables and RCA cables and fluid damper, KAB external PSU, upgraded regulator and strobe disabler, Isonoe feet and a Funk Firm Achromat.
Of course, I'm hoping for a big, synonymous "YES!" in reply but I would also like tips and advice for not too expensive upgrades and tweaks to serve the PU right.
All replies will be highly appreciated :)
Audio Al
18-05-2014, 15:52
After some hours in an euphoric state,
I think you answered your own question , Just enjoy as is for now ;)
I think you answered your own question , Just enjoy as is for now ;)
Think he means at the purchase, don't think the cart is on his arm/deck yet.
I think you answered your own question , Just enjoy as is for now ;)
Thanks for the quick reply :)
I'm currently using a stock Technics headshell, would I gain much changing it for i.e. a Sumiko headshell?
Think he means at the purchase, don't think the cart is on his arm/deck yet.
Spot on, I haven't received the cart yet.
I don't think the arm will do the cart justice but I'm no expert however send it to me and I'll test it as I have Micro Seiki MA-202 that almost certainly will:D
BTW, well done on the purchase:cool:
I don't think the arm will do the cart justice but I'm no expert however send it to me and I'll test it as I have Micro Seiki MA-202 that almost certainly will:D
BTW, well done on the purchase:cool:
Just PM me with your address an I'll send it as soon as I receive it ;)
So how much better is the Micro Seiki MA-202 and is it compatible at all with a 1210? (l don't know if you have a Techie or not) I see that the MA-202 is reasonably priced compared to Audiomods etc on eBay.
Just PM me with your address an I'll send it as soon as I receive it ;)
So how much better is the Micro Seiki MA-202 and is it compatible at all with a 1210? (l don't know if you have a Techie or not) I see that the MA-202 is reasonably priced compared to Audiomods etc on eBay.
Night day difference Ragnar, yes I have Technics 1200 mk 2, my arm is fitted to the deck with one of Speedy Steve's ebony armboards.
Think I read a thread somewhere on the forum that said the stock arm can only really play up to a certain cart,.i.e it isn't any use for a 2M black so you would have to use a 2M blue for example (wasn't that cart but you get my drift) might even have been the cart that you've bought that was considered ok but that you really couldn't go up the range of carts to the top.
Found it
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32508-New-MM-Cart-for-a-Tech-1210-mk2&p=552076#post552076
BTW, I paid just over £300 for my arm delivered from Hong Kong and it came with a MS HL-202 headshell which is worth about £60, the arm board is roughly £100 delivered and worth every penny.
Hi there
I am sure you will get an improvement when you put in the new cart. I have not heard the Cadenza series but they they have a great reputation. In order to get the best out of any component all the other components should be more-or less equivalent. Looking at your sig it appears to me that the areas where you would benefit most lie with the TT. The tonearm is one such area - the bearing, platter and power supply are others. So I think a good tonearm will help. A Jelco 750D is a safe choice but maybe you can do better. If you are sure you do not want the convenience of swap-able headshells then an Origin Live arm may be the ticket.
Night day difference Ragnar, yes I have Technics 1200 mk 2, my arm is fitted to the deck with one of Speedy Steve's ebony armboards.
Think I read a thread somewhere on the forum that said the stock arm can only really play up to a certain cart,.i.e it isn't any use for a 2M black so you would have to use a 2M blue for example (wasn't that cart but you get my drift) might even have been the cart that you've bought that was considered ok but that you really couldn't go up the range of carts to the top.
Found it
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32508-New-MM-Cart-for-a-Tech-1210-mk2&p=552076#post552076
BTW, I paid just over £300 for my arm delivered from Hong Kong and it came with a MS HL-202 headshell which is worth about £60, the arm board is roughly £100 delivered and worth every penny.
Thank you for the informative reply :-)
It seems like I have a long upgrade path ahead. I really like the s-shaped stock tonearm so the HL-202 seems like a good choice aesthetic wise. On the fly VTA change is also a really nice feature. What would you say is the H-202s biggest strength? What is the largest difference between the stock tonearm and the H-202? Have you by any chance compared an upgraded stock tonearm with the H-202?
Hi there
I am sure you will get an improvement when you put in the new cart. I have not heard the Cadenza series but they they have a great reputation. In order to get the best out of any component all the other components should be more-or less equivalent. Looking at your sig it appears to me that the areas where you would benefit most lie with the TT. The tonearm is one such area - the bearing, platter and power supply are others. So I think a good tonearm will help. A Jelco 750D is a safe choice but maybe you can do better. If you are sure you do not want the convenience of swap-able headshells then an Origin Live arm may be the ticket.
Thank you for the reply :)
It's quite right what you're writing, the chain isn't stronger than its weakest link. I can imagine that I would benefit from a new tonearm. The Origin Live is way too expensive at the moment, so I have to find another option. The Jelco 750D seems like a good choice. Are there any other alternatives in that price range?
I really do appreciate your help :)
Thank you for the reply :)
It's quite right what you're writing, the chain isn't stronger than its weakest link. I can imagine that I would benefit from a new tonearm. The Origin Live is way too expensive at the moment, so I have to find another option. The Jelco 750D seems like a good choice. Are there any other alternatives in that price range?
I really do appreciate your help :)
This looks pretty tasty http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-Seiki-MA-505S-Silver-Wired-Tonearm-Made-Japan-/370812723096?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5656291f98
I think the stock arm is much better than most people give it credit for - you need to get to megabuck caliber before you can truly best it.
(Although the Jelco 750 by all accounts seems to be a very, very synergistic match for it.)
Have no worry about your arm, (epically with a cardas re-wire)...it will handle your new cartridge with style and grace.
I think the stock arm is much better than most people give it credit for - you need to get to megabuck caliber before you can truly best it.
(Although the Jelco 750 by all accounts seems to be a very, very synergistic match for it.)
Have no worry about your arm, (epically with a cardas re-wire)...it will handle your new cartridge with style and grace.
Thank you for the reply :)
You've all given me some food for thought. I think I'll use the new cartridge with the KAB upgraded stock arm for the time being, while I'll be looking for a bargain tonearm.
Upgradius nevrosa is always present ;)
Thank you for the informative reply :-)
It seems like I have a long upgrade path ahead. I really like the s-shaped stock tonearm so the HL-202 seems like a good choice aesthetic wise. On the fly VTA change is also a really nice feature. What would you say is the H-202s biggest strength? What is the largest difference between the stock tonearm and the H-202? Have you by any chance compared an upgraded stock tonearm with the H-202?
Hi Ragnar, here's a thread I started when I replaced the stock tonearm with the Micro Seiki MA-202, one thing that really does stand out for me is bass which is huge with the MS tonearm also the VTA on the fly is very easy to use much easier than the Technics arm but I never really mess about with it however I did put a felt mat on the TT the other night and adjusted the VTA while a record was playing but my wife said that the sound wasn't as good so reverted back to my usual set up.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29446-Stock-arm-gone
Hi Ragnar, here's a thread I started when I replaced the stock tonearm with the Micro Seiki MA-202, one thing that really does stand out for me is bass which is huge with the MS tonearm also the VTA on the fly is very easy to use much easier than the Technics arm but I never really mess about with it however I did put a felt mat on the TT the other night and adjusted the VTA while a record was playing but my wife said that the sound wasn't as good so reverted back to my usual set up.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29446-Stock-arm-gone
A really inspirational thread, thank you :)
If the MA-202 sounds as good as it looks, it has to sound amazing.
A really inspirational thread, thank you :)
If the MA-202 sounds as good as it looks, it has to sound amazing.
Thanks Ragnar, I bought the MS arm over the Jelco for a number of reason one of which is that a couple of other guys on here have them notably Rob who has also documented his experience with the arm but he uses an Ortofon 2MM black on his and say's that sounds amazing however one other reason that I bought the MS arm is that it's directly from the heyday of vinyl and from a great company who made fantastic TTs and arms but are sadly no longer in business.
BTW, don't discount the tonearm cable, I previously thought that hi-fi cables were all snake-oil type of stuff but that's certainly not the case with tonearm cables IME.
Regards
Tony
rubber duck
20-05-2014, 10:00
I think the stock arm is much better than most people give it credit for
+1. I think many of the problems with (and criticisms of) the stock SL1200 arm is down to the cabling.
The Cadenza Blue is an excellent cartridge, and like all cartridges, the better the arm, the better the deck, the better the cabling, etc. .......... the better it sounds.
Give it a try and if it doesn't provide a 'wow' on well recorded and mastered vinyl, investigate a better arm.
Thank you for all your replies :)
Tomorrow is the big day, I'll keep you updated.
While waiting for the postman, a picture of the beauty in action.
http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/t/takajun7777/20111229/20111229163103.jpg
A quick question. Should I use the Ortofon headshell cables that came with the cartridge or Cardas headshell cables?
ChrisKemp
21-05-2014, 23:28
Thank you for all your replies :)
Tomorrow is the big day, I'll keep you updated.
While waiting for the postman, a picture of the beauty in action.
http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/t/takajun7777/20111229/20111229163103.jpg
I think the Cadenza Blue will sound amazing with the KAB arm. Your next upgrade should be the Mike New Bearing:)
I've been listening to the Cadenza Blue for a while, and I can confirm that it's a really good cartridge. Compared to the 2M Bronze the bass is tighter, deeper and more detailed, the mids are more detailed and defined. The treble has more details and extends higher than the 2M. The separation of the instruments is also better. On direct comparison with flac from a SB Touch via a DAC the flac still sounds a bit better, especially in the lower bass and highest treble, but the Techie is really gaining ground :)
The Cadenza Blue is quite picky regarding alignment, and the azimuth is a bit off with the Technics headshell I use which makes the stereo perspective and the width of the soundstage suffer. I've ordered a Sumiko HS-12 headshell to get the azimuth spot on and will report back when I've tested the cartridge with the new headshell.
One little curiosity, Ortofon has reversed the colour markings for the left and right channel. They've done it on other cartridges as well, here's a picture from the web of the phenomenon.
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vinylavdelingen/262531d1401109774-technics-sl-1210-wp7dc62aae_05.jpg
So, do the stock tonearm with dampening and Cardas wiring serve the Cadenza Blue right? It for sure sounds a lot better than the 2M Bronze, but I still think you might need a better tonearm to unleash all the cartridge's potential. Another great excuse to upgrade ;)
To finish this off, an half bad action picture of the beauty.
Enjoy :)
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vinylavdelingen/262533d1401111602-technics-sl-1210-pu-motert-3-lite.jpg
A nice cheap upgrade that may work for you is a set of Techniboots (assuming the Isonoe feet are naked).
Something else to consider is a high density graphite headshell. People that use them here seem to quite like them. However, I don't think it will be cheap!
Hi Ragnar, congrats on the cart - looks super!
The Cadenza Blue is quite picky regarding alignment, and the azimuth is a bit off with the Technics headshell
From the picture, the headshell looks to be inclined anticlockwise towards the centre of the record. I suspect that this isn't an issue with the headshell per se, but with the connector at the tonearm. This is held in place by two very small screws on the underside of the arm tube. It's been my experience with a number of stock arms that, over time, these screws cannot properly withstand the force applied when locking the headshell into the arm, and so the connector starts to turn a little anticlockwise (the direction in which it's locked). This can be fixed if you loosen the screws, turn the connector clockwise by the relevant (probably quite small) amount - easier to judge with the headshell in place - and tighten the screws. It's a little fiddly, as there's not much space in between the arm and top plate to fit even a small screwdriver, but if you jack up the VTA and also remove the platter + plastic PCB guard, this should give you a lot more room to play with. WARNING: Only turn the connecter - do not pull it away from the armtube, or you'll stress/break the tonearm wire!
This is worth doing as, over time, as you remove/refit the headshell, it may continue to turn anticlockwise, fudging the azimuth again. But it's still worth having the Sumiko even if you fix it at the arm - it's a notable improvement on the Technics.
One little curiosity, Ortofon has reversed the colour markings for the left and right channel. They've done it on other cartridges as well, here's a picture from the web of the phenomenon.
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vinylavdelingen/262531d1401109774-technics-sl-1210-wp7dc62aae_05.jpg
?? It looks as if they have it labeled correctly -- if you look closely you will see that the little flags of color have pointy ends pointing directly to the pins, it's most visible looking at the green, and the green flag thing (right 0V) is pointing to the 'bottom' pin on the right side, which is traditionally the proper spot for that. The rest of the pin markings are similar. You do, in your photo, have it connected properly.
So, do the stock tonearm with dampening and Cardas wiring serve the Cadenza Blue right? It for sure sounds a lot better than the 2M Bronze, but I still think you might need a better tonearm to unleash all the cartridge's potential. Another great excuse to upgrade ;)
I'm still of the opinion that you need to get to megabuck tonearms before you are going to truly trounce the stock arm, especially when rewired and damped. This is a path on which I am currently collecting parts and will document shortly.
Hi Ragnar, congrats on the cart - looks super!
From the picture, the headshell looks to be inclined anticlockwise towards the centre of the record. I suspect that this isn't an issue with the headshell per se, but with the connector at the tonearm. This is held in place by two very small screws on the underside of the arm tube. It's been my experience with a number of stock arms that, over time, these screws cannot properly withstand the force applied when locking the headshell into the arm, and so the connector starts to turn a little anticlockwise (the direction in which it's locked). This can be fixed if you loosen the screws, turn the connector clockwise by the relevant (probably quite small) amount - easier to judge with the headshell in place - and tighten the screws. It's a little fiddly, as there's not much space in between the arm and top plate to fit even a small screwdriver, but if you jack up the VTA and also remove the platter + plastic PCB guard, this should give you a lot more room to play with. WARNING: Only turn the connecter - do not pull it away from the armtube, or you'll stress/break the tonearm wire!
This is worth doing as, over time, as you remove/refit the headshell, it may continue to turn anticlockwise, fudging the azimuth again. But it's still worth having the Sumiko even if you fix it at the arm - it's a notable improvement on the Technics.
Thank you for a great tip, I think you are spot on :) I'll report back after adjusting the connector.
?? It looks as if they have it labeled correctly -- if you look closely you will see that the little flags of color have pointy ends pointing directly to the pins, it's most visible looking at the green, and the green flag thing (right 0V) is pointing to the 'bottom' pin on the right side, which is traditionally the proper spot for that. The rest of the pin markings are similar. You do, in your photo, have it connected properly.
You're absolutely right *foot in mouth*
BTW, do you think the angle of the needle is too steep on the pictures? Compared to other pics of Cadenza Blue playing the angle is quite steep.
BTW, do you think the angle of the needle is too steep on the pictures? Compared to other pics of Cadenza Blue playing the angle is quite steep.
Steep in which direction? :)
Looking closely at the photo, which not being perpendicular to the cartridge body makes for all sorts of weird illusions, it seems to be a little tail low - until you look even more closely and see that the back, non-angled bottom of the body appears to be parallel with the platter...
Regardless, it's not a big deal as the SL-tonearm has about the easiest VTA adjust of any arm ever. Play with it until everything snaps in focus.
Thanks for the quick reply.
The VTA is 100% level on the picture, despite the numerous optical illusions :) To be more specific, I was wondering about the stylus being too vertical when the VTA is dead on. I could, as you suggest, just alter the VTA to get the right stylus angle. The paranoia just hit me, what if my precious cartridge was damaged?
The VTA is 100% level on the picture, despite the numerous optical illusions :)
The cartridge body is parallel to the disc. Good. It's a reference only.
To be more specific, I was wondering about the stylus being too vertical when the VTA is dead on.
Just because the cartridge body is parallel doesn't mean the VTA is 'right' -- it just means the body is parallel. :)
I could, as you suggest, just alter the VTA to get the right stylus angle.
Aha! Yes - this is it exactly - The arm's VTA adjust raises and lowers the arm pivot point, changing the angle that the cartridge body sits above the disc. That angle is relative to the SRA - Stylus Rake Angle, which is the actual angle that the stylus sits in the groove. Just because the cartridge body is level doesn't mean the SRA (by which everybody thinks of as VTA) is in the groove at it's optimum. As you infer, this is the time that you need to raise and lower the VTA adjustment and see what sounds better. It can be a subtle adjustment, but when it's right, you will know. :)
The paranoia just hit me, what if my precious cartridge was damaged?
By what?
Thank you very much for the detailed answer :)
I think I'll buy a cheap USB microscope to get the SRA right. I'll report back.
I think I'll buy a cheap USB microscope to get the SRA right. I'll report back.
What's that going to do? :) There is no real angle to measure and then set, as the variables of shank to cantilever, cantilever to coil mount, coil mount tension, and tracking weight will all adjust the angle of the diamond in the groove.
As it's an adjustment that can only really be set by ear, just start making adjustments to VTA and listen - like I said, it's going to be obvious when it's correct - things just sound 'right'.
Regardless, it's not a big deal as the SL-tonearm has about the easiest VTA adjust of any arm ever. Play with it until everything snaps in focus.
My MS MA-202 has a much easier VTA adjust than the stock tonearm although I rarely use it but it's just a lever with a knurled finger grip which you loosen then pull the lever towards you to raise the tonearm or back to lower it, very very simple and nearly no chance of damaging the cart cause the lever is on the outside and away from the arm rather than the inside as the adjust is on the stock tonearm.
What's that going to do? :) There is no real angle to measure and then set, as the variables of shank to cantilever, cantilever to coil mount, coil mount tension, and tracking weight will all adjust the angle of the diamond in the groove.
As it's an adjustment that can only really be set by ear, just start making adjustments to VTA and listen - like I said, it's going to be obvious when it's correct - things just sound 'right'.
Thank you very much for all your replies :) I'll start fiddling with the VTA and report back if it was a success or not. I've already ordered an USB microscope, great excuse to get another gadget ;)
I've already ordered an USB microscope, great excuse to get another gadget ;)
I would get it just to look at the stylus... :) :D :) :D :)
I would get it just to look at the stylus... :) :D :) :D :)
I'll post some stylus porn when the microscope arrives :D :)
Hi Ragnar, congrats on the cart - looks super!
From the picture, the headshell looks to be inclined anticlockwise towards the centre of the record. I suspect that this isn't an issue with the headshell per se, but with the connector at the tonearm. This is held in place by two very small screws on the underside of the arm tube. It's been my experience with a number of stock arms that, over time, these screws cannot properly withstand the force applied when locking the headshell into the arm, and so the connector starts to turn a little anticlockwise (the direction in which it's locked). This can be fixed if you loosen the screws, turn the connector clockwise by the relevant (probably quite small) amount - easier to judge with the headshell in place - and tighten the screws.
Thanks a lot for the excellent tip, it works as a charm :)
Now the azimuth is correct, at least judging by the spirit level, and the stereo perspective is much better. The hard thing is to tighten the screws enough to avoid this happening again. I haven't managed that quite yet.
Great! Pleased it worked :)
Yeah those screws can be a pain to tighten - ideally you'd want a right-angled screw driver, but it is possible to do it with a small straight screw driver, if you're able to get enough force behind it (I've found this is easier when the turntable is on a higher platform). If you can't manage it then the other option is to remove the arm, then it's much easier, but obviously involves a lot more faff, what with getting the arm out/in.
I'll see if I can get hold of an angeled screwdriver, but I think I anywat have to adjust the azimuth now and then. When I tighten the screws the angle alters a bit and the azimuth is off.
Again, thank you :)
Oh yes, that can happen. If you get the headshell where you want it, and then hold the connector firmly in place in the tube as you tighten up the screws, that should prevent it from shifting as the screws tighten. It's a little awkward, and can be a bit of a trial and error process, but not impossible! :)
A quickshot of the Cadenza Blue with the Sumiko HS12. With the VTA level it sounds really nice, but I'll experiment with the VTA to get the SRA spot on. The cart has not been burnt in yet, it has only 25 hours under it's belt. This can only get better. Oh, the joy of vinyl! :)
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vennetra-der-hifimerker/265337d1402483932-ortofon-club-14024836915290.jpg
The USB microscope is now tested and here is, as promised, some stylus porn :D
The Cadenza Blue in all it's glory :)
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vennetra-der-hifimerker/266401d1403083366-ortofon-club-stylus-cadenza-blue.jpg
A bonus picture of the 2M Bronze. Not as pretty as the Cadenza Blue but still worth a close up.
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vennetra-der-hifimerker/266402d1403083567-ortofon-club-2m-bronze-cu.jpg
A hobbit loves Klipsch, not very interesting, but take a look in the right corner of the picture. A nice SL1200 :) If the 1200 is good enough for a hobbit, it's good enough for me too :D
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/vinylavdelingen/266495d1403170165-technics-sl-1210-10403194_10152114173301345_2154633276844789551_n.j pg
BTW, he should get rid of the slipmat and get a proper Achromat ;)
Klipsch LaScala (the speakers he is sitting on) are very interesting and with the right amp can sound fantastic. Most other Klipsch? Not all that interesting.
Klipsch LaScala (the speakers he is sitting on) are very interesting and with the right amp can sound fantastic. Most other Klipsch? Not all that interesting.
I know, La Scala sounds fantastic with the right amp. I'll bet his Cary CAD 805C monoblocks are a terrific match. Still wondering about the slipmat tough.
I agree completely!
But I wonder if it's a decent mat... I know Rega makes felt in many colors. (Even though felt sounds awful on the Technics...)
337alant
13-07-2014, 05:23
Ragwo
Which USB microscope did you buy?
Alan
Hi Alan.
I bought this (http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm?itemId=251575755350) one on fleabay.
337alant
13-07-2014, 08:32
Thanks Ill get one, cheep as chips eh!
Alan
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