Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'

[anthonyTD]

Well a point is a little unpointed in this case. I have never done any of the things in my question so I am interested in the answers. But for me the most interesting question is the last one about why no sand amps, I think I may know the answer but I am interested in the opinion of those that buy them direct or import them.

So what I am leading to is that if China becomes the only sensibly priced place to buy bottle amps that means kiss UK - US - EU production goodbye. So how do the tweekers fit in with this. I personally would not like to do lots of work for a Chinese manufacturer and expect to have an exclusive for my ideas or to stay out of their other production. Well I know the Chinese from dealing with them for over 20 years and the answer is not a chance in hell. A Chinese ex TCC teacher of mine published a book and printed it in China as the print rate was less than a third of EU price. So they just printed an extra 10,000 and sold them themselves - there is no ethos there are no business ethics.

I personally would never allow any work of mine to get anywhere near them as they are master copiers.

i agree,
i will also add my opinion/reason for the lack of sand amps being offered by the chinese, [if thats ok with you sweety;)] it would seem to me to be a very simple reason, that is, the chinese are quite good business people too, and at the moment, valve amplifiers are in vogue, they are a curiosity to many people, and they are becoming very much in demand, where as transistor/silicon/sand amplifiers are, well, not...;)
anyway off to bed now chaps, play nicely now, i will read your opinions on this, and any others you may have when i get chance.;)

[Chris Frost]

there is no ethos there are no business ethics.

I personally would never allow any work of mine to get anywhere near them as they are master copiers.So what you're saying is that it's OK for home brewed cottage industry amps to kill the major manufacturers, but it's not OK for the Chinese to do the same to the cottage industry?

Don't you think that's a pretty big contradiction?

[WikiBoy]

i agree,
i will also add my opinion/reason for the lack of sand amps being offered by the chinese, [if thats ok with you sweety;)] it would seem to me to be a very simple reason, that is, the chinese are quite good business people too, and at the moment, valve amplifiers are in vogue, they are a curiosity to many people, and they are becoming very much in demand, where as transistor/silicon/sand amplifiers are, well, not...;)
anyway off to bed now chaps, play nicely now, i will read your opinions on this, and any others you may have when i get chance.;)

Don't be so partisan, I am not anti bottle amps. Yes there is a market and it is pretty stable, but I personally don't think that is it.

Remember during the overtly communist period (where as now it is just pretend communist and really autocratic fascism) they were highly production linked with Russia and Russian technology, well in Russia in the 80's technology was still largely bottle based. So China when it modernised had massive surplus stocks of high voltage components and bottles, as the products they needed to produce were all sand based chip technology.

So this stuff is dirt cheap in China, the labour required is simple and unskilled, there is no sensible way of mechanising production and an old shed and a couple of soldering irons will do the job.

I think this is why the transformers are crap as they are probably the biggest cost item for them, and anyway they can skimp on metal and materials they will, and transformers are not a good place to do this.

So high voltage redundent components are easy to find and cheap, but sand components and low voltage good quality components are at a premium. Basically the opposite situation we have here in the west.

[WikiBoy]

So what you're saying is that it's OK for home brewed cottage industry amps to kill the major manufacturers, but it's not OK for the Chinese to do the same to the cottage industry?

Don't you think that's a pretty big contradiction?

I said nothing of the sort and you know it.

[Chris Frost]

I said nothing of the sort and you know it.All I know is that you appear to be worried about the Chinese knocking out cheap copy amps. But that seems to be in direct contradiction to your "Finger Pointing at the Moon" philosophy of let all HiFi enthusiasts enjoy cheaper HiFi.

I'm just trying to get a little clarification on your ethos here. Is it one moon for you and a different moon for the rest of us? :)

[Chris Frost]

i agree,
i will also add my opinion/reason for the lack of sand amps being offered by the chinese, [if thats ok with you sweety;)] it would seem to me to be a very simple reason, that is, the chinese are quite good business people too, and at the moment, valve amplifiers are in vogue, they are a curiosity to many people, and they are becoming very much in demand, where as transistor/silicon/sand amplifiers are, well, not...;) I think you're bang on there.

Judging by the amount of cheap silicon based electronics already made in China there appears to be no shortage of skills and the cost of components doesn't seem to be an issue either. It's simply a question of demand. After all, look at what's happened with Supermarket DVD players once China's production got up to speed. £20 - £30 retail with VAT, import duties, cost of sales, an extra few percent off for 'no returns', and on top of that these seem to be the machines that play every format under the sun. If there's enough demand then some part of the Chinese manufacturing machine seems able to respond.

[pure sound]

Remember during the overtly communist period (where as now it is just pretend communist and really autocratic fascism) they were highly production linked with Russia and Russian technology, well in Russia in the 80's technology was still largely bottle based. So China when it modernised had massive surplus stocks of high voltage components and bottles, as the products they needed to produce were all sand based chip technology.

So this stuff is dirt cheap in China, the labour required is simple and unskilled, there is no sensible way of mechanising production and an old shed and a couple of soldering irons will do the job.

I think this is why the transformers are crap as they are probably the biggest cost item for them, and anyway they can skimp on metal and materials they will, and transformers are not a good place to do this.

So high voltage redundent components are easy to find and cheap, but sand components and low voltage good quality components are at a premium. Basically the opposite situation we have here in the west.

Richard, if you think all of these products are filled with NOS 1980's high voltage components or crappy transformers think again. It just ain't so. There's plenty of decent SS electronics being made in China too, Cambridge being just one example. What's more, you can even buy it in a shop if you choose to!

[anthonyTD]

Richard, if you think all of these products are filled with NOS 1980's high voltage components or crappy transformers think again. It just ain't so. There's plenty of decent SS electronics being made in China too, Cambridge being just one example. What's more, you can even buy it in a shop if you choose to!
well said,
and as for the "crappy transformers" you keep banging on about richard,not so now, i have measured them, and compared to a lot of well respected european equipment, they measure up very well, the problem with some of them [not all] is that their mains transformers are wound for 220v, and therefore not suitable to be run on our aproaching [sometimes] 250v supply.
some of the valves they use in them leave a lot to be desired also, but,over-all, a lot of the equipment coming out of china at the moment is quite impresive.
especially at the price.
anthony...;):)

[anthonyTD]

Don't be so partisan, I am not anti bottle amps. Yes there is a market and it is pretty stable, but I personally don't think that is it.

Remember during the overtly communist period (where as now it is just pretend communist and really autocratic fascism) they were highly production linked with Russia and Russian technology, well in Russia in the 80's technology was still largely bottle based. So China when it modernised had massive surplus stocks of high voltage components and bottles, as the products they needed to produce were all sand based chip technology.

So this stuff is dirt cheap in China, the labour required is simple and unskilled, there is no sensible way of mechanising production and an old shed and a couple of soldering irons will do the job.

I think this is why the transformers are crap as they are probably the biggest cost item for them, and anyway they can skimp on metal and materials they will, and transformers are not a good place to do this.

So high voltage redundent components are easy to find and cheap, but sand components and low voltage good quality components are at a premium. Basically the opposite situation we have here in the west.

richard,
what rot!:mental::mental::mental: any components they would have had left from those days are long, long gone now. ;)

[WikiBoy]

Richard, if you think all of these products are filled with NOS 1980's high voltage components or crappy transformers think again. It just ain't so. There's plenty of decent SS electronics being made in China too, Cambridge being just one example. What's more, you can even buy it in a shop if you choose to!

As you perfectly well know I was talking about small companies making direct sales.

[WikiBoy]

richard,
what rot!:mental::mental::mental: any components they would have had left from those days are long, long gone now. ;)


So new old stock only exists in the west. Anyway as I explained this was just a kite having a fly, I asked questions was asked what I thought caused it and gave a reply of an idea not a fact. There is an awfull lot of partisan interest at work between you and Murray. It is not necessary as neither of you are the target of the rant, calm down :smoking:

[anthonyTD]

So new old stock only exists in the west. Anyway as I explained this was just a kite having a fly, I asked questions was asked what I thought caused it and gave a reply of an idea not a fact. There is an awfull lot of partisan interest at work between you and Murray. It is not necessary as neither of you are the target of the rant, calm down :smoking:

you started it!!!;)

[anthonyTD]

you started it!!!;)
but seriously,
supplies of new old stock valves/parts etc that are left in the uk are very scarce now, and i suspect the same all over the world, so they wouldnt be put in current production as they would be too expensive.
as for not relating your rants at me, you are in-directly, because you seem to be hell bent on shooting anyone down that is not in the same mind frame as you, you even implied when steve toy was explaining to you about getting his amp further modified that if i [meaning me] was so clever, why didnt i make equipment from scratch, and when i challenged you on this, and proved that i do,you tried to shoot me down for that!!! what the hell is going on in that brain of yours sweety!;):lol::confused::eyebrows:

[Steve Toy]

CSAS!

[Filterlab]

Csas

ICBYUA!

[Marco]

What does that one stand for? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Filterlab]

I can't believe you're using acronyms.

:lol: Just made it up.

[pure sound]

Forgive me Richard. What exactly is the point of the rant (currently)? It started out being about shops but it isn't any longer. It now seems to be about Chinese produced electronics, but not apparently about the bulk of that production (ie the stuff;TV's, DVD Players, Music Centres, Ipods etc that gets sold through shops), just the relatively small percentage of it that gets sold directly via ebay. And your point is?

[WikiBoy]

but seriously,
supplies of new old stock valves/parts etc that are left in the uk are very scarce now, and i suspect the same all over the world, so they wouldnt be put in current production as they would be too expensive.
as for not relating your rants at me, you are in-directly, because you seem to be hell bent on shooting anyone down that is not in the same mind frame as you, you even implied when steve toy was explaining to you about getting his amp further modified that if i [meaning me] was so clever, why didnt i make equipment from scratch, and when i challenged you on this, and proved that i do,you tried to shoot me down for that!!! what the hell is going on in that brain of yours sweety!;):lol::confused::eyebrows:

I did none of those things it is your paranoia.

Rants have a nature and an energy of their own, in a way they is a bit like a non musical Rap. I didn't asked to be shown things and I never said you only produce things by modding. You are obviously a very sensitive young man, just have losts of rest and stop taking things so personally. I am only interested in personally attacking the slurp triumverate of retailers / magazines and reviewers / marketing men.

Back to your points, you may well be right, my guess was just that. Anway AFAIK Russia and China are the only new source of these components. In my estimate of imported Chinese valve amps all I have to go on are comments in the forums, and the major complaints are about transformers and bottles and a milder one about PCBs.

All I am saying is that if someone is interested in a valve amp the no brainer is to buy it direct from China via ebay and if not happy pass it on at ebay or get the likes of you (and many many others) to mod, or learn to use a soldering iron and join one of the DIY forums, valve amps are just so simple and perfectly suited to DIY buggering around with, as long as there is some common sense about the voltages involved. Anyone who pays the daft prices these things end up at if not sold direct are just that - daft!

[WikiBoy]

Forgive me Richard. What exactly is the point of the rant (currently)? It started out being about shops but it isn't any longer. It now seems to be about Chinese produced electronics, but not apparently about the bulk of that production (ie the stuff;TV's, DVD Players, Music Centres, Ipods etc that gets sold through shops), just the relatively small percentage of it that gets sold directly via ebay. And your point is?

Read the thread, it still has a flow even though it has largely been buggered around with by admin.

This section is about Chinese valve amps, but was changed to retail by people reacting to comments. Why should I do your work for you use your brain (and keyoard) if you are so interested.

[anthonyTD]

I did none of those things it is your paranoia.

Rants have a nature and an energy of their own, in a way they is a bit like a non musical Rap. I didn't asked to be shown things and I never said you only produce things by modding. You are obviously a very sensitive young man, just have losts of rest and stop taking things so personally. I am only interested in personally attacking the slurp triumverate of retailers / magazines and reviewers / marketing men.

Back to your points, you may well be right, my guess was just that. Anway AFAIK Russia and China are the only new source of these components. In my estimate of imported Chinese valve amps all I have to go on are comments in the forums, and the major complaints are about transformers and bottles and a milder one about PCBs.

All I am saying is that if someone is interested in a valve amp the no brainer is to buy it direct from China via ebay and if not happy pass it on at ebay or get the likes of you (and many many others) to mod, or learn to use a soldering iron and join one of the DIY forums, valve amps are just so simple and perfectly suited to DIY buggering around with, as long as there is some common sense about the voltages involved. Anyone who pays the daft prices these things end up at if not sold direct are just that - daft!

there you go then!
richard has spoken yet again, and of course he is talking perfect sense:mental: as usual, marco, steve,etc, i will teach you how to solder, then acording to him who must be obeyed, you can mod your own amps!;):eyebrows:

[WikiBoy]

I suspect you can shine a torch in one ear and see the light through the other ;)

Marco.

P.S You have a PM :)

This is out of order and against your ethos, withdraw the post and apologise for your remarks or you get no further posts from me.

[pure sound]

All I am saying is that if someone is interested in a valve amp the no brainer is to buy it direct from China via ebay and if not happy pass it on at ebay or get the likes of you (and many many others) to mod, or learn to use a soldering iron and join one of the DIY forums,

You obviously don't meet many 'normal' people Richard. Most have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in the hassle (& potential risk) of private importing or indeed picking up soldering irons. They have lives to live. They might however want something that makes listening to music an enjoyable thing to do but they'd generally be more inclined to obtain it via some outlet who'll support it should there be any problem.

Of course there'll be the occasional enthusiast who does want to pick up a soldering iron, but if thats the case there are plenty of good quality kits available from UK suppliers. (WD springs to mind) I'd actually recommend they build their own. Why import anything? Bear in mind this group of people is nowadays sadly a tiny, tiny percentage of end consumers.

[anthonyTD]

there you go then!
richard has spoken yet again, and of course he is talking perfect sense:mental: as usual, marco, steve,etc, i will teach you how to solder, then acording to him who must be obeyed, you can mod your own amps!;):eyebrows:

ohh, and by the way richard, look through your posts,you will find what i am relating to, you have to have a good memory in the denial business my friend.
and i am perfectly calm and confident about what i do, so cut it out now!;):mental::eyebrows::lol:

[Marco]

This is out of order and against your ethos, withdraw the post and apologise for your remarks or you get no further posts from me.


Richard,

Chill out. It was a tongue-in-cheek remark :)

Since you're apparently so 'sensitive', sweety, I'll remove it.

While we're at it let's have no more of you referring to people as "idiots" and "assholes". You know what the deal was about you being rude! No one has called *you* these names, so cut it out.

Marco.

[Filterlab]

This is out of order and against your ethos, withdraw the post and apologise for your remarks or you get no further posts from me.

Well thank goodness.


Richard,

Chill out. It was a tongue-in-cheek remark :)

Since you're apparently so 'sensitive', sweety, I'll remove it...

No, leave it mate, then maybe this non-sensical non-productive bile will stop.

[Steve Toy]

This is out of order and against your ethos, withdraw the post and apologise for your remarks or you get no further posts from me.


I'm gonna say, that's a bit rich coming from him. This is gentle ribbing compared with the Tourettes we've had to put up with. :D

[Marco]

As the old saying goes...if you dish it out you've got to be able to take it in return!

And I don't mean in a sexual sense :lolsign:

It's funny, though, I've always found people who 'dish it out' somewhat wanting in their ability to 'take it in return'. I can think of a certain Cestrian physician from Glasgow as a prime example! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[WikiBoy]

There has just been a closed thread at Wigwam trying to discuss why certain products were banned to be talked about. So a good discussion ensued before der boss and owner James (Mr Wigwam) closed the thread with a pack of lies per usual. This is what he posted.

*****

hit nail on head. If some one is abusive or known to be litigious then the easist thing is not ban all discussion. It does mean that the forum suffers, in that certain products can't really be discussed. But we don't see any way of getting round that.

As at least two of the banned manufacturers take great pleasure in letting me know how succesful all the "free advertising" they get here is. As they have got us to the point where we have banned them, I frankly have no wish to help their business in any way. Certainly not if it means they get to gloat at me in a rude and cynical way. Comments like that from abusive individuals and trouble makers only inspire us all to moderate very heavily against them.

End of conversation chaps. Sorry.

*****

Well the other manufacturer I know who was banned was Beresford, they say for being abusive, but seeing how the man lies that is probably wrong. As for me I didn't even get the chance to be abusive, I was banned for refusing to give him £50 for posting there.

[Marco]

Richard,

I understand why you've posted that, and I'm sure it could be the basis of a good discussion, but I'm afraid we can't be party to disputes from other forums.

James and I at times haven't seen eye to eye but I've got nothing against him personally and I simply won't allow this forum to be used as a vehicle to attack him or his forum policies.

If you can make your point more general in nature rather than specifically aimed at Wigwam then we might be able to further the discussion, otherwise I'm afraid it's a non-starter. Any attempt of you ignoring this and continuing to post in your current vein will result in non-permitted material within your posts being deleted - sorry!

Marco.

[WikiBoy]

Richard,

I understand why you've posted that, and I'm sure it could be the basis of a good discussion, but I'm afraid we can't be party to disputes from other forums.

James and I at times haven't seen eye to eye but I've got nothing against him personally and I simply won't allow this forum to be used as a vehicle to attack him or his forum policies.

If you can make your point more general in nature rather than specifically aimed at Wigwam then we might be able to further the discussion, otherwise I'm afraid it's a non-starter. Any attempt of you ignoring this and continuing to post in your current vein will result in non-permitted material within your posts being deleted - sorry!

Marco.

So you have joined the cartel as well ! other forums cannot be disussed. When do you go whole hog and charge £50 for industry members to post here - sell out !

Also I cannot post on Chinese valve amps as it is upsetting the members with vested interests here who are defending their slurp !

Also retailers are banned to be talked about !

So you kill the rant well done, I am sure there will be people who will be very happy and they are the ones that deserve to be ranted.

[Marco]

Richard,

There's no "cartel", mate. We (admin) have to be respectful of other forums and those who run them, otherwise this sort of subject matter just turns into a 'slagfest' with people coming out of the woodwork simply to 'have a go'.

I'm quite happy to discuss £50 trade membership fees with you, though - not that we intend to charge such a fee, or any fee, to trade members for the privilege of advertising on our site. We're nice that way ;)

What I'm curious about is why the big beef about an annual fee of £50 to advertise on a busy audio forum with a large membership full of potential customers? I should have thought the potential return on your investment more than warrants such paltry expenditure. After all, charging for advertising space isn't exactly a novel concept. A token gesture from the admin of PFM or Wigwam of charging their trade members £50 per annum seems very fair to me. I've spent more on a good bottle of claret for my Sunday lunch.

Therefore what's the big problem? Feel free to enlighten us... If you can use the word "slurp" less than 500 times in your reply that would be a bonus :)

Marco.

[Filterlab]

Richard, there is no cartel.

Click on this link (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17) and read the guidelines of the forum, this was the first post put up on the site.

[Steve Toy]

So you kill the rant well done, I am sure there will be people who will be very happy and they are the ones that deserve to be ranted.


Richard,

Don't you think you've already made your point on the issue of dealers etc? To keep banging on about it indefinitely just makes us look at you and think b&t on your part and that there are probably issues within your own personality and shortcomings relating to working with the industry as a whole.

You need to put that one to bed now. Your points can be searched out within our internal search engine you know. There is no need for you to repeat yourself.

[jandl100]

There are large numbers of hi-fi enthusiasts now who refuse to buy new, ebay and forum classifieds has provided them with bargains to try and if no like sell on, it is fun and you get to hear lots of kit and compare it. Jerry is the arch proponent of this, but many many more do it. Do they need retailers - no. Do they need magazines and reveiwers - no. Do they need marketing men - no. Do they need the community at ebay and the forums - yes.

Oops - that's me! Hi !!! :wave:

I dunno, I take my eye of Richard's thread for a few days and a dozen or two pages of heated debate happen!

So, just to respond to Richard's points about me and those like me (are there any?!) (& without reading the next dozen or so pages of posts) ....

1) no, I don't need retailers. I find I've been in this hobby long enough that I generally know more than they do. I don't really believe in the demo facilities they provide either - I can get an extended home dem which is far more useful quite cheaply by buying kit and selling it on immediately if I don't want it.

I certainly don't want to pay UK RRP on anything. I like to have a constant stream of different equipment going through my system. E.g. I can get thru 4 or 5 pairs of speakers a year. Ditto amps, sources, cables.

I have a huge amount of fun doing this - and if I buy at used prices I just need a relatively small amount of funds to maintain this. The last year I kept full financial records I actually spent over £14,000 on buying used hifi gear. But I sold £12,000 worth - so the nett cost to me was £2k. A huge bargain for a very entertaining hobby, as far as I am concerned.

Coincidentally (?), the only new gear I have bought recently are amps from Richard. As far as I am concerned he has the ability to sell good product at prices way lower than competing items at normal UK RRP.

2) yes, actually I think I do need mags and reviewers - to keep me aware of new product and technologies, and for the dealer used ads (although their websites are getting better in this regard). Online forums can be useful for this - but ime the forum denizens can be quite blinkered in the stuff that they are willing to consider - the maxim "I know what I like, and I like what I know" seems to apply too often. I prefer a broader horizon. (Sorry ;))

3) do I need marketing men? - only to provide ads in mags in support of point 2) above.

4) do I need the online community? Ummm .... tbh, I could exist without online forums. I couldn't do what I do without eBay or, to a much lesser extent, hififorsale.com.

Online forums are fun though - and often provide access to 2nd hand goodies and their disposal.

:)

OK - now I'll get back to reading the next dozen or so pages of this thread!

[jandl100]

Oops again - I now skip to the end of the thread and see that it has all turned sour.

Ah well, inevitable I guess.

[Marco]

Hi Jerry,

Excellent post (your longer one above) :)

I admire what you do, and I'm sure it's fun and certainly very educational, but you are most certainly in the minority with your approach. For me, and no doubt many others, it would be a nightmare swapping and changing kit all the time.

I like to take my time auditioning new kit to make sure it's right for me then buy it, live with a settled system for a number of years, and just simply concentrate on listening to music. I may experiment with ways of modifying existing equipment or play with cables, but that's it.

The thought of buying and selling stuff on Ebay or whatever and connecting and disconnecting it, packing and unpacking it, etc, and all the upheaval involved, not knowing whether something will be any good or not, disposing of unwanted kit, then losing money in the process, does not fill me with joy! But you obviously enjoy the process, so good luck to you :smoking:

The thread has not turned sour. We're just trying to reign Richard in a bit when he goes a bit over the top or goes on and on, about the same things, like a broken record! ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

Yep - "My Way" takes a fair amount of time - and is a hobby in its own right.

As a friend on another forum pointed out (in exasperation!) he just doesn't have the time for all of my buying/selling shenanigans - when he gets home from work, in what spare time he can find he just wants to kick back and listen to some tunes.
And therein lies the difference, I then realised .... I'm retired (well, I quit work at 45, just over 6 years ago actually! ;)) so I do have the time for this ... and for many other leisure activities - like listening to music.

Yup, "My Way" is a hobby in its own right, in addition and in parallel to a love of music.

______

& yes, while I am a great fan of Richard and his hifi gear, & I like the guy (although we've never met) - he does rather get carried away and trap himself in a corner at times. :steam: (He needs to get out more, I think, and relax a bit! :cool: )

:peace:

[jandl100]

To pick up on another of Richard's musings .....

I've had three (I think .... :scratch:) Chinese valve amps. No, make that four.

First off was a MingDa MC34-A EL34-based integrated amp .... just like the Icon Audio folk sell in a 'modded' version for, errr, rather more. ;) My pure-Chinese was an excellent beast and it looked seriously cool (even the Wife liked it). Bought and sold for less than £400. A real sonic bargain.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MingDaMC34-A.jpg

Then there was an Opera Consonance M100S+ 300B-based integrated amp. Not sure if this was UK-modded or not - I don't think so. I bought it on eBay as ex-dem from the UK importer for 1/2 RRP. This is one of the very few bits of kit I regret selling on - it was a beaut sonically, remote control, too. If I see another at a bargain price it will be mine again!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ConsonanceM100s300B.jpg

Then there's my current OTL amps. These I am not selling. (Yet. ;))
Stunning sound - quite possibly the best power amps I have ever heard - but they do need to be used into an easy speaker load (that's OTLs for you, sadly).

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/OTLvalveamp.jpg

And the 4th Chinese amp? ... a diddy Little Dot II headphone amp. It looked seriously cute, but to be honest it didn't sound any better than the headphone socket on my Sony MiniDisc player!

Yep, overall my experience with pure-Chinese valve amps at decidely cool prices is very positive indeed! :)

EDIT: No, I didn't import any of these myself - all used or from a dealer/importer.

[WikiBoy]

& yes, while I am a great fan of Richard and his hifi gear, & I like the guy (although we've never met) - he does rather get carried away and trap himself in a corner at times. :steam: (He needs to get out more, I think, and relax a bit! :cool: )

:peace:


Can't agree with you Jerry.

When this forum started it had freedom and flexibility (need to attract members). Now it has gone the way of other forums and developed an "in-crowd" (human nature). The difference with this forum is the in crowd is largely industry based which is dangerous. They are not here to be your friend they are here to promote their products and services.

I am different and will never be part of any in crowd, I have no desire to promote nva here, but when I first came to have the freedom to say what I thought about things that are banned at other forums was brill, so I took advantage. It was the admin and mods that called it rant, for me it was venting an over inflated balloon (good description of me :lol:). So the in crown are largely vested interests and admin and mods have been drawn into supporting their POV as they have invested in their products and services, and no one likes to look like a duck so they defend them with great volume. So the rant became Richard on AofS, which I didn't mind I quite enjoyed it. The point of a rant is to suss and winkle out the motives and disadvantages and problems, so the vested interests are bound to consider it threatening. So look through the thread, my favourite rant subjects - Marketing men, largely allowed because Ash was stupid and played the marketing man to counter marketing man dissing, perhaps he knows no better, with admin and mods on my side I could say what I liked. Retailers, I was left to get on with it to begin with as retailers were not at the core of the in crowd but as time went on more and the distributor and tweeker members of the in crowd who use retail saw themselves threatened so pressure was put on. Forum owners, well they now want to join the cartel so once again forum owners can do what they want without being shown up. I have even got around to magazines and reviewers yet.

Regarding getting out - I have flurries on forums, it is entertainment. If you see how I work you would understand. I solder and solder until I have 5 min break (in this case longer) for a slurp of tea by my computer, check emails reply to them, check which ever forum I am entertaining myself on and reply, quick browse at other forums, TCC as well as Hi-Fi, to see if anything interesting, then back to soldering. My flurry here has come to an end, it is not fun any more, there are vested interest who are now hunting me in their posts, not giving information but trying to disrupt and insult, and I am not being allowed to insult back (a sign of the burgioning in crowd). I enjoy a good fight but not with my hands tied behind my back.

Perhaps the forum will change, they are a very dynamic environment but until then as in the immortal saying, so long and thanks for the fish.

[Filterlab]

Can't agree with you Jerry.

When this forum started it had freedom and flexibility (need to attract members). Now it has gone the way of other forums and developed an "in-crowd" (human nature). The difference with this forum is the in crowd is largely industry based which is dangerous. They are not here to be your friend they are here to promote their products and services.

Complete and utter nonsense Richard, there is no "crowd" here (whatever one of those is), this is a place to talk about anything hi-fi related.

Unfortunately it still needs to be moderated from time to time to stop it being dominated by the folk who turn every single conversation or thread around to their product (Ashley / JC) or to stop people getting on a rant and then banging on about it continuously. Just because this forum is moderated doesn't automatically make it inflexible and lacking in freedom.

Also as administrators / moderators we are ultimately responsible for the content, therefore if it is libelous towards companies or derogatory in any way to other forums / individuals we are bound by vBulletin's rules to remove the content forthwith.

You may feel this is unfair, but it's tough luck Richard, there's nothing you can do to change it and every forum on every subject in the world is run under the same conditions.

[Filterlab]

By the way Richard, if you are going then I'd like to wish you the best of luck but I won't as you are the only person I dislike on this forum, everyone else is friendly, charming and pleasant, has no axe to grind about anything and just likes hi-fi for all its many foibles and charms. I'm sure you're a nice person to deal with and your products do your skills justice, and I'm sure your level of experience in the industry gives you fair stead for your views, but for some reason best known to yourself you fail to be civil in almost everything you say on forums. Why? I'll never know, but I don't have the time or inclination to find out.

On that note, I'll remove the sticky so that it disappears from the top of the list and then hopefully not too many new members will associate this (rather lovely) forum with your anti-industry bile. :) If your response becomes at all threatening or overly negative I will lock this thread, I may even delete the whole thing.

[Marco]

LOL. Well, I'm not quite sure I entirely share Rob's sentiments but he's entitled to them. However I've got to say what a load of self-preening old bollocks, Richard - and a country mile away from the reality of the situation!

I could dissect your post and address the misguided observations one by one but there's no point. People can judge the situation for themselves. All you've done is chucked your toys out the pram because you weren't getting things all your own way!

Anyway, you're welcome to post here whenever you wish, providing you respect our ethos, but if you've chosen to say "Sayonara" then that's your decision. I wish you all the best and hope to see you appear again with your unique insight into the world of hi-fi sometime in the future :smoking:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

I have even got around to magazines and reviewers yet.


This is one rant where admin will likely be on your side so please bring it on. I remember a thread I started on the Naim forum back in 2001 on the very subject of magazine reviews that ran and ran. We ended up talking about beer but there you go!

Come on Richard, please don't take your ball home. Stay and put another record on.

[anthonyTD]

Can't agree with you Jerry.

My flurry here has come to an end, it is not fun any more, there are vested interest who are now hunting me in their posts, not giving information but trying to disrupt and insult, and I am not being allowed to insult back (a sign of the burgioning in crowd). I enjoy a good fight but not with my hands tied behind my back.

Perhaps the forum will change, they are a very dynamic environment but until then as in the immortal saying, so long and thanks for the fish.

richard,
i suspect that after seeing you shoot everything you read on here down in flames lately people are reluctant to give information about anything lest they get the same treatment from you!
i for one, when i first joined this forum, after reading some of the posts found that you were actualy talking sense in a lot of ways, but you seem to have gone off the deep end of late.
what ever you decide to do, i wish you well...:)

[Marco]

Anthony,

You're right. Whilst I found some of Richard's posts amusing, he appears to be 'damaged goods'.

Marco.

[jandl100]

Sigh. This really is all very sad imho.

OK - I readily admit that my middle name is "Naive" - and that I (too) easily see the nice side of folks.

But ..... although I like you, and your products, and your professionalism when selling your gear, I have to say that there seems more than a touch of paranoia to you, Richard.

Is it really surprising that other folks aren't willing to be ranted at and insulted?

Being impolite seems to me to be letting the other guy win. There's no profit in it.

I strongly recommend, as a friend as well as a happy and committed customer, that you take an objective view of what you have been doing here. If you do that and still can't see the other side of things, then well, I think it's very sad. Sorry. :(

[Filterlab]

..he appears to be 'damaged goods'.

As anyone who's fostered children will tell you, there's a lot of difference between damaged and broken. :(

[Steve Toy]

Anyway, on the subject of magazine reviewing I've dug out this thread I started on the Naim forum nearly seven years ago:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48019385/m/5371956252/p/1

There is a serious amount of thread drift through the five pages. Marco joins the discussion on page 4. As "Stallion." :D

[Marco]

Haha... Ah yes, the good old days. There are some familiar old names on that thread! "Stallion" - LOL! Richard Dane changed it to "Marco" in my second 'reincarnation', hence why my posts are signed "Stallion" but the member title is "Marco".

How times change, eh? Me extolling the virtues of QS Ref, getting excited about the purchase of a CDS2 and, shock horror, waxing lyrical about Focal stand-mounts! :D

Seven years, though? It just shows how long we've both been involved in this bollocks... :eyebrows:

Hey, for a real laugh you should try and resurrect some of the unforgetable 'classic' threads starring moi and Jamesy boy, such as 'I've Been FRAIMed In The NAIM of Music", or when I changed from QS Ref to Mana. Now that would be a hoot of the highest order :lol:

Marco.

[Marco]

Come on, Steve, get your finger out! ;)

I'm sure it would provide some light amusement...

I'd do it but I'm not a member of the Naim forum.

Marco.

[WikiBoy]

And so it continues - the point of the arrow is always followed by the rest of it!

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48649

[Mick Parry]

Chaps

This was the very first line of this thread opened by Richard.

"We are all trapped into marketing think. It is the plague of this industry"

My view is that small hifi companies are totally useless are marketing their products. In fact they come across as bumbling idiots.

They just seem to cause arguments and alienate every one including potential custumers from the moment they open thier mouths. The gambit always seems to be " I am right, my product is unbeatable and everything else is crap and if you don't buy my stuff in the way that I want, you are a fool."

These guys should stick to their soldering irons and pay for a professional company to market their goods. We can all name a string of small companies where the proprietor just lets the product down by over projecting his own image and that is nearly always fatal.

Fora such as this are a golden opportunity for a small company to promote their goods and as sure as eggs, they all completely blow it time after time.

Very sad.

Regards

Mick

[Filterlab]

Very well said Mick, especially this bit:


...We can all name a string of small companies where the proprietor just lets the product down by over projecting his own image and that is nearly always fatal....

[Marco]

Yes, Mick, good point, and please don't be such a stranger in future :)

We want to see plenty more of your contributions on AOS :smoking:

Regards,
Marco.

[WikiBoy]

Chaps

This was the very first line of this thread opened by Richard.

"We are all trapped into marketing think. It is the plague of this industry"

My view is that small hifi companies are totally useless are marketing their products. In fact they come across as bumbling idiots.

They just seem to cause arguments and alienate every one including potential custumers from the moment they open thier mouths. The gambit always seems to be " I am right, my product is unbeatable and everything else is crap and if you don't buy my stuff in the way that I want, you are a fool."

These guys should stick to their soldering irons and pay for a professional company to market their goods. We can all name a string of small companies where the proprietor just lets the product down by over projecting his own image and that is nearly always fatal.

Fora such as this are a golden opportunity for a small company to promote their goods and as sure as eggs, they all completely blow it time after time.

Very sad.

Regards

Mick

I do hope this is not addressed at me as it is completely wrong if so. Find me a post where I have marketed NVA here or at any forum, it is not the point of me posting or this thread.

The general line I dissagree with as well as if you are swayed by marketing speak from the hired proffessionals you are the very problem that I am railing against. The only marketing that is required is to listen and let the product sell itself (or not as the case may be) anything else is bullshite. None of you are (or should be) so stupid as to be swayed by marketing speak, be it advertising copy, reveiwer demi god meglamania or the sort of performance that Ash put up here a month or so ago.

I want us to go back to the techy who designed and built it talking to the enthusiast / music lover potential user about how one creates the other. That is how it was originally with Williamson et al when home audio / hi-fi started, and that is real Hi-End Hi-Fi marketing IMO.

[Mick Parry]

Richard

Just re read your last posting and count up the number of times the word "I" appears in it. I think this and I think that and the general impression is that you are not pushing an opinion but more pushing a dictat and we have all got to agree with you or accept the fact we are fools.

These fora are a fairly broad church and we range from 100% Naim systems to valve enthusiasts to vinyle fanatics and to the bodger. They all have valid opinions, usually based on experience and will cheerfully debate until the cows come home.

What they will not accept is some proprietor of a small company repeating the same dictitorial stuff time and time again.

Far better to say ......... this is my product, I believe in it, I think it is good and competitive and I hope you give it a try. That will get results. Causing arguments and getting banned is maddness for a proprietor of a small hifi company and it seems to be a trade mark of a large proportion of your colleagues and competitors.

Learn some presentation skills or pay someone else to do it for you.

Your choice and your livelyhood.

Regards

Mick

[WikiBoy]

Richard

Just re read your last posting and count up the number of times the word "I" appears in it. I think this and I think that and the general impression is that you are not pushing an opinion but more pushing a dictat and we have all got to agree with you or accept the fact we are fools.

These fora are a fairly broad church and we range from 100% Naim systems to valve enthusiasts to vinyle fanatics and to the bodger. They all have valid opinions, usually based on experience and will cheerfully debate until the cows come home.

What they will not accept is some proprietor of a small company repeating the same dictitorial stuff time and time again.

Far better to say ......... this is my product, I believe in it, I think it is good and competitive and I hope you give it a try. That will get results. Causing arguments and getting banned is maddness for a proprietor of a small hifi company and it seems to be a trade mark of a large proportion of your colleagues and competitors.

Learn some presentation skills or pay someone else to do it for you.

Your choice and your livelyhood.

Regards

Mick

Complete nonsense and you haven't read the thread or understood the concept - please do before you spout.

I am not here to market in ANY way, I am not here for your business or anyone elses business - do you now understand. In fact if it will convince you then I will say here I do not want your business or from anyone else here, I have enough business thank you! It is not my choice or my decision obviously though it is yours and theirs. This process here of my posting is about community and as a member of this industry for over 30 years I have something to contribute to this community. THIS HAS *NOTHING* TO DO WITH ME AS NVA OR NVA OR NVA PRODUCTS - did you hear it this time. I am here as an individual, to the point that I refused to be called trade and prefered to be called a muppet!

The reason I post has nothing to do with me, it has to do with the industry and the changes it is going through and I wish to trumpet those changes. Those changes are now being vocalised in the pinkfish thread I have highlighted, so what is different that I have highlighted them or been speaking about them. The whole marketing thing is the root cause of the mess this industry has got it self in. *I* state again, it is time the industry went back to its roots and understood music and its relation to design, not fornicating bullshit marketing.

*I* have an opinion, and as an individual *I* wish to express it. Yet as exampled on pinkfish and wigwam most forums just wish to jump on the bullshit marketing bandwagon, and just *expect* industry members to bullshit so wish to charge them £50 a time for doing it, so just perpetrating the problem. Well sorry like it or not you have someone different, with a different purpose. So how about just forgetting I am nva and addressing the points made with intelligent conversation for the sake and benefit of community, instead of starting your usual conflict which you seem addicted to.

[Filterlab]

Conflict? Where?

Actually, I don't care. This forum has become a very very positive place since there has been no contribution to this thread, not that it wasn't before, but this type of conversation always seems to bring a place down, therefore I'm locking it for good.

http://rms-developer.com/Padlock.jpg

[Marco]

I just want to add and say to Mick and Richard that I don't think you done anything 'wrong' as such, but Rob was quite right to lock the thread because we can't have threads used purely for tit-for-tat digs or to express 'issues' people have against each other. When discussions go beyond the hi-fi subject and things get personal threads will always be locked - it's as simple as that.

Try to play the ball and not the man in future! :)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Richard

Just re read your last posting and count up the number of times the word "I" appears in it. I think this and I think that and the general impression is that you are not pushing an opinion but more pushing a dictat and we have all got to agree with you or accept the fact we are fools.

These fora are a fairly broad church and we range from 100% Naim systems to valve enthusiasts to vinyle fanatics and to the bodger. They all have valid opinions, usually based on experience and will cheerfully debate until the cows come home.

What they will not accept is some proprietor of a small company repeating the same dictitorial stuff time and time again.

Far better to say ......... this is my product, I believe in it, I think it is good and competitive and I hope you give it a try. That will get results. Causing arguments and getting banned is maddness for a proprietor of a small hifi company and it seems to be a trade mark of a large proportion of your colleagues and competitors.

Learn some presentation skills or pay someone else to do it for you.

Your choice and your livelyhood.

Regards

Mick

hi mick,
you have a point, and i for one have quite extensive experience of working with people you describe. richards rant on the other hand, in my opinion also has its merits... :)

[Steve Toy]

Richard's thread is reopened for him to rant away. No personal insults though please Richard. :)

[Filterlab]

...No personal insults though please Richard. :)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :lol:

That'll last for about ten words! He's a freakin' liability!

[Ali Tait]

Well seeing as I got gagged for trying to be a fair voice on the "wallah" thread,and being told via PM that the reason the thread was closed all of a sudden (after I had asked via PM) was because the thread "was going nowhere" in spite of the fact that a post I had made previously was answered by Steve Toy(the main man on this site AFAIK) to which I replied via PM to the effect that how could the thread be going nowhere when the main man is replying to my posts?? To which I've still not received an answer (via PM) but I suppose there was a sort of back-handed answer in the last couple of public posts on the thread in question.All I was trying to do was be a fair and impartial voice,but as far as I can see from what has transpired,isthat this is not allowed on this site unless it fits in with the admin team's designs.I therefore have come to the conclusion that I will no longer visit or contribute to this site.I believe in free speech and freedom for all human beings,so will not tolerate the totalitarianism as practised by the persons running this place.I've no idea why I'm typing this,as I guess that the admin team will delete it anyway,but at least I got it off my chest.I wish all the members here all the very best.

Ali.

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

Get a grip, mate. No-one is being gagged. You have a PM :)

Btw, there is no "main man" here. Steve, Rob and I all have equal authority.

Marco.

[Filterlab]

:lol: LOL! "Totalitarianism". That's a slightly strong word to describe a forum's management isn't it? Ali, if you feel you have to leave due to our 'regime' then that's your decision mate. I'm sorry you feel that way though, especially as I can't see where, how or by whom you have been "gagged".

But then what do I know, I'm not the "main man" obviously? :)

[Mike]

Ali,

Before you bugger off, I don't suppose I can have my digi cable back could I, please?

:(

[Steve Toy]

Ali. Don't bugger off. The Art of Sound is about valves and DIY as much as anything else. We'll work through this shite but it isn't easy.

And no, there is no main man. The three admin members have equal say and a 2/3rds majority carries.

[WikiBoy]

OK so lets get back on topic!

They say the electorate of this country get the politicians they deserve. Well could it be equally said that you Hi-Fi buffs get the industry you deserve.

Do you all secretly like the bullshite that dominates this industry, are you all so in deference to Hi-Fi reviewers and designers that you don't see them for the w* they are. Celebrities in an industry as small and as strange as ours, quite bizzarre.

So what happens, you get a buff who makes some changes or makes some good choices in Hi-Fi or just bluffs his way to people asking his opinion, next step he is a reviewer, next step he thinks he is god! Where as the ones that make changes get to be known as tweakers, so people ask then to make things and before they know it they design product and then they are a *designer* and then large numbers of you treat them like they are gods. In some cases they only have to pretend to be designers like Anthony M and Ivor T.

Audio electronics is not rocket science it is *bloody simple* and the simpler the better. The basics are common sense and a decent set of ears.

The real guys are never happier than with a soldering iron in hand and solder blobs on the jersey. Hey one recently has given up being a maker and gone back to being a tweaker, good old Crofty, I bet he is happier with it as well.

[Steve Toy]

Tweakers (that also have made their own kit from scratch) are the good guys (Glen Croft and Anthony Matthews included.) I know because my valve amp has improved enormously since it was extensively tweaked, or 'raped' as one chap put it on another forum.

With a host of rare NOS valves and still-manufactured output valves that are the ones that wear out, I'm happy indeed.

Bespoke is the way to go - it cuts out all the marketing and distributor costs to produce something that would probably cost over £3,000 were it available as an off-the-peg commercial item.

[jandl100]

as exampled on pinkfish and wigwam most forums just wish to jump on the bullshit marketing bandwagon, and just *expect* industry members to bullshit so wish to charge them £50 a time for doing it, so just perpetrating the problem.

Nope, I don't think that is true.

I only have extensive experience of the Wigwam, but that forum has simply accepted the fact that some dealers will flood their postings with marketting BS, (as we have seen here by our good ex-friend Ashley) and has found a way to limit and contain this by having a separate dealer section where they can BS to their hearts' delight and cracking down quite hard where this setup is abused.

I think that is a good & pragmatic system for addressing what is an inevitably ongoing problem.

[anthonyTD]

OK so lets get back on topic!

They say the electorate of this country get the politicians they deserve. Well could it be equally said that you Hi-Fi buffs get the industry you deserve.

Do you all secretly like the bullshite that dominates this industry, are you all so in deference to Hi-Fi reviewers and designers that you don't see them for the w* they are. Celebrities in an industry as small and as strange as ours, quite bizzarre.

So what happens, you get a buff who makes some changes or makes some good choices in Hi-Fi or just bluffs his way to people asking his opinion, next step he is a reviewer, next step he thinks he is god! Where as the ones that make changes get to be known as tweakers, so people ask then to make things and before they know it they design product and then they are a *designer* and then large numbers of you treat them like they are gods. In some cases they only have to pretend to be designers like Anthony M and Ivor T.

Audio electronics is not rocket science it is *bloody simple* and the simpler the better. The basics are common sense and a decent set of ears.


The real guys are never happier than with a soldering iron in hand and solder blobs on the jersey. Hey one recently has given up being a maker and gone back to being a tweaker, good old Crofty, I bet he is happier with it as well.
richard,
get your facts right, i have never pretended to be anything more than whats highlighted above, i have a good following in what i have acheived over the years, i have made many pieces of equipment from scratch with no one elses input, and combined my efforts with other well known people in the industry, and when i say from scratch, i mean from scratch, casework, boards, everything, if you want to have a go at people like me,for what ever your reasoning, there are other ways of doing it. i specialise in one paticular part of the audio re-play chain, valves, from studio equipment, to musical instrument amplification, and no, i didnt pick valve technology because as you seem to think its easier, i did it because that was the technology i was mostly into. i have a long history of electronics, my dad was a service engineer from the 1950's on, and repaired, serviced everything from televisions, :)to toasters!
anthony...

[Marco]

Yep spot on, Anthony. And considering I was in the company of Glenn Croft yesterday afternoon, some of which was spent discussing his new amplifier range that is soon to be launched, I can categorically confirm that "good old Crofty" has not given up being a maker, either. Don't believe everything you read in magazines ;)

Marco.

[WikiBoy]

richard,
get your facts right, i have never pretended to be anything more than whats highlighted above, i have a good following in what i have acheived over the years, i have made many pieces of equipment from scratch with no one elses input, and combined my efforts with other well known people in the industry, and when i say from scratch, i mean from scratch, casework, boards, everything, if you want to have a go at people like me,for what ever your reasoning, there are other ways of doing it. i specialise in one paticular part of the audio re-play chain, valves, from studio equipment, to musical instrument amplification, and no, i didnt pick valve technology because as you seem to think its easier, i did it because that was the technology i was mostly into. i have a long history of electronics, my dad was a service engineer from the 1950's on, and repaired, serviced everything from televisions, :)to toasters!
anthony...

Would I ever be likely to put you in the company of Ivor T? are you the only person with the name Anthony M? - is your surname Michaelson?

[anthonyTD]

Would I ever be likely to put you in the company of Ivor T? are you the only person with the name Anthony M? - is your surname Michaelson?
richard,
my sincere apologies mate,
i must admit, it did make me think, if this was meant for me, the man has realy, realy lost the plot this time. :lol:

[pure sound]

Would this 'pretend to be' designer Anthony Michaelson be in any way related to the Anthony Michaelson you were praising in the 'Bottle Wallahs' thread?

".....It still has its place and I am very pleased it re-emerged from the wilderness, who in the UK do we thank for this do you remember were you around? Well it was Anthony Michaelson with TVR in the mid 70's, OK a majority went spectacularly up in flames but they were a welcome alternative to the burgeoning Linn / Naim religious pomposity...."

The amps were actually called TVA. (the company was Michaelson & Austin iirc)

[WikiBoy]

Nope, I don't think that is true.

I only have extensive experience of the Wigwam, but that forum has simply accepted the fact that some dealers will flood their postings with marketting BS, (as we have seen here by our good ex-friend Ashley) and has found a way to limit and contain this by having a separate dealer section where they can BS to their hearts' delight and cracking down quite hard where this setup is abused.

I think that is a good & pragmatic system for addressing what is an inevitably ongoing problem.

Manufacturers and industry members are normal human beings as well. For example I just happen to be a manufacturer but as I have proved on this list I have no interest in promoting my product on forums. Before this list existed I joined, in turn, Zerogain, Wigwam and Pink Fish. As here I wished to discuss the industry and get peoples opinions and *voice* the changes. At Wigwam NO mention of NVA yet I was sent a £50 invoice which I refused to pay, so now I have not just me banned and not mentioned but my product banned to be mentioned as well which wasn't being talked about and had nothing to do with it. Threads are pulled and posts are binned and member are threatened with banning if they talk about NVA. I am even accused of paying WW members to mention my products, that is how daft and paranoid the guy is. Is that fair.

Pink fish held off sending me an invoice until someone asked me a question about NVA and I replied factually and asked the person to PM me. I immediately received an invoice for £50 which I refused to pay publically which created a thread on its own :doh: There in theory I am banned to be talked about but I have never seen threads pulled because of it as at Wigwam. Zerogain has no policy of charging industry so I thought I was safe but it seems the owner of PF virtually owns ZG as well so it was contrived to ban me from that as well. OK so I am a controversial character who likes to voice and discuss controversial subjects, but surely that is what forums are for, not just platitudes and recycling all the industry BS.

Jerry if you want the industry not to cash in on forum exposure then it is not a good idea to try and cash in on it yourself, = hypocrisy. And £50 stops no-one it just makes them pay for it.

[jandl100]

richard,
my sincere apologies mate,
i must admit, it did make me think, if this was meant for me, the man has realy, realy lost the plot this time. :lol:

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. But not this time! :)

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

OK so lets get back on topic!

They say the electorate of this country get the politicians they deserve. Well could it be equally said that you Hi-Fi buffs get the industry you deserve.



Richard
Are you not part of the industry too.

Andy

[WikiBoy]

Would this 'pretend to be' designer Anthony Michaelson be in any way related to the Anthony Michaelson you were praising in the 'Bottle Wallahs' thread?

".....It still has its place and I am very pleased it re-emerged from the wilderness, who in the UK do we thank for this do you remember were you around? Well it was Anthony Michaelson with TVR in the mid 70's, OK a majority went spectacularly up in flames but they were a welcome alternative to the burgeoning Linn / Naim religious pomposity...."

The amps were actually called TVA. (the company was Michaelson & Austin iirc)

Did I say he was a designer in that thread, he owned the company. Did he design TVA - do you know the answer - or are you hunting again?

[WikiBoy]

Richard
Are you not part of the industry too.

Andy

Yup, so do you deserve me :) but in this guise I am me. If I was here as NVA I would be different.

[jandl100]

Jerry if you want the industry not to cash in on forum exposure then it is not a good idea to try and cash in on it yourself, = hypocrisy. And £50 stops no-one it just makes them pay for it.

OK - for some reason(s) that I don't fully understand both you and Stan Beresford have managed to seriously piss off the Wigwam admin.

Nonetheless, I think the Wigwam's policy of a specific Dealer Section is a good one, as it confines (most of) the BS they are prone to spout to a specifically Non-BS-Free area.

I also note with approval a recent change to the Wigwam's Ts&Cs for all members to fess-up if they are associated with the Trade.

TBH - I think some of the esteemed Mr Popeck's posts should be in such a section here. At what point does a dealer's genuine enthusiasm for a product/manufacturer become marketting hype?

[pure sound]

Did I say he was a designer in that thread, he owned the company. Did he design TVA - do you know the answer - or are you hunting again?

I didn't say he was a designer either. I was just amused by your seemingly inconsistent attitude towards him. I couldn't work out whether you approved of his efforts or not :)

[WikiBoy]

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. But not this time! :)

Don't be silly Jerry, do you really want to become a hunter. You were one of those at WW who was accused of supporting me for favour and money, did you like it, did you get cross about it, does that make you paranoid. I think not.

Just because you feel I rant too far and you no longer use my product doesn't mean there cannot be mutual respect and understanding of POV.

This is thread drift, we are getting back to forums. Current rant is about industry demigods and who causes them and do you lot make them. Do you largely cause your own problems, do you get the industry you deserve.

[WikiBoy]

I didn't say he was a designer either. I was just amused by your seemingly inconsistent attitude towards him. I couldn't work out whether you approved of his efforts or not :)


Does it matter why should you worry, it is only a rant. Or do you wish to activate conflict again like the last time. Does something make you feel threatened again? Look at the wording, confrontational! you could just give facts and correct my keyboard slip and lack of time, it is all in attitude.

I am pleased you are amused though so let us keep it that way it is largely the point of this thread, then you don't have to activate the non public part of your personality. Stick to being the nice guy called Puresound.

[anthonyTD]

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. But not this time! :)
understood!!!:lol::eyebrows:

[WikiBoy]

OK - for some reason(s) that I don't fully understand both you and Stan Beresford have managed to seriously piss off the Wigwam admin.

Nonetheless, I think the Wigwam's policy of a specific Dealer Section is a good one, as it confines (most of) the BS they are prone to spout to a specifically Non-BS-Free area.

I also note with approval a recent change to the Wigwam's Ts&Cs for all members to fess-up if they are associated with the Trade.

TBH - I think some of the esteemed Mr Popeck's posts should be in such a section here. At what point does a dealer's genuine enthusiasm for a product/manufacturer become marketting hype?

Tight line to walk, but the guy has years of industry experience and has experienced a lot of the sh1t that I did, so I respect and listen to his views. A little slip of the trousers showing the marketing crease :lol: is allowable for me in this case. After all it is not another Ash!

[pure sound]

I see the rant has now been transferred from this "pretty insignificant forum" to the "king of fori" sic. lucky pfm'ers. However, my guess is that it'll all end in tears!

I'm intrigued though Richard. Just who are these marketing men masquerading as designers who have captured the aspirations of audiophiles everywhere and who are, as we speak, selling them bucket loads of stuff they shouldn't be buying. Do name names. I can't think of anyone doing that well at the moment. Ivor T hasn't been less influential for perhaps 30 years and Anthony M isn't really taken seriously after releasing his 500W booster amps. You might have made a case for Ken Ishiwata 10 years ago but probably not now. He actually does do some design as well I gather. So please tell me which confidence trickster it is that has the hifi buying public in their thrall these days.

With regard to reviewers, the only magazine with any serious circulation has anonymous reviewers so hardly the cult of celebrity there. Hifi World does next best but I'm not sure who at that magazine could be said to have an over inflated sense of self worth or indeed a following of disciples hanging onto their every word. Choice & News seem to be lacking direction and Plus, while being thoroughly written and nice to look at has a very small circulation and correspondingly little influence. I suppose it might be said that online mags like 6 moons hold more sway nowadays.


What tickles me somewhat is that your target audience (not market), the soldering iron wielding DIY enthusiasts of yore, have largely abandoned SS technology for what they perceive as the more rewarding performance of valves. Perhaps they've realised that the promise of sand amps; lots of Watts, little heat, little bulk and apparently low distortion was indeed a chimera dreamt up by the bean counters you so despise back in the 1950's and 60's and that while it may do for Joe Bloggs, it can't/won't ever deliver the musical involvement these guys seek. Ah, the irony of it! But that's where the excitement, the innovation and the enthusiasm is now. The low power/high efficiency people are having the fun! Good thing imho.

[Mike]

I fear a reply will NOT be forthcoming!

;)

[anthonyTD]

I see the rant has now been transferred from this "pretty insignificant forum" to the "king of fori" sic. lucky pfm'ers. However, my guess is that it'll all end in tears!

I'm intrigued though Richard. Just who are these marketing men masquerading as designers who have captured the aspirations of audiophiles everywhere and who are, as we speak, selling them bucket loads of stuff they shouldn't be buying. Do name names. I can't think of anyone doing that well at the moment. Ivor T hasn't been less influential for perhaps 30 years and Anthony M isn't really taken seriously after releasing his 500W booster amps. You might have made a case for Ken Ishiwata 10 years ago but probably not now. He actually does do some design as well I gather. So please tell me which confidence trickster it is that has the hifi buying public in their thrall these days.

With regard to reviewers, the only magazine with any serious circulation has anonymous reviewers so hardly the cult of celebrity there. Hifi World does next best but I'm not sure who at that magazine could be said to have an over inflated sense of self worth or indeed a following of disciples hanging onto their every word. Choice & News seem to be lacking direction and Plus, while being thoroughly written and nice to look at has a very small circulation and correspondingly little influence. I suppose it might be said that online mags like 6 moons hold more sway nowadays.


What tickles me somewhat is that your target audience (not market), the soldering iron wielding DIY enthusiasts of yore, have largely abandoned SS technology for what they perceive as the more rewarding performance of valves. Perhaps they've realised that the promise of sand amps; lots of Watts, little heat, little bulk and apparently low distortion was indeed a chimera dreamt up by the bean counters you so despise back in the 1950's and 60's and that while it may do for Joe Bloggs, it can't/won't ever deliver the musical involvement these guys seek. Ah, the irony of it! But that's where the excitement, the innovation and the enthusiasm is now. The low power/high efficiency people are having the fun! Good thing imho.

well said that man!
although i thought we werent suposed to post any further on this mere mortal!!!
:)

[Marco]

Hi Guy,

Good reply, but unfortunately Richard has been banned (you probably hadn't noticed - see the 'Why is it that?' thread in Abstract Chat) so, as Mike says, he won't be in a position to respond.

Has Tony on PFM lifted Richard's ban now? That is most interesting. I wish Tony all the luck in the world in trying to manage him and I hope that he doesn't live to regret his decision.

Oh, regarding Richard's "insignificant forum" remark, I'm not sure how much more 'significant' we can be in the five months or so we've been going. The activity and interest being created on and by AOS is quite incredible considering our 'youth' in comparison to well established forums such as PFM, which have been running for about six years in order to become "the king of fori"! We'll see just how 'significant' AOS is in six years time if I haven't keeled over from the stress ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

well said that man!
although i thought we werent suposed to post any further on this mere mortal!!!


Precisely; although I don't think Guy was aware Richard has been banned. Shall we lock this thread now as I feel it is long past its sell-by date or does anyone else have something worthwhile to add?

Marco.

[pure sound]

Apologies. I hadn't seen that Richard was banned.

[Mike]

It's probably best locked otherwise it might end up a rant ABOUT Richard, enough is enough surely?

:scratch:

[Marco]

Guy, no worries :)

Ok, locked it is. Mike, can you please do the honours? I need to nip out somewhere for a bit.

Cheers,
Marco.

[Mike]

Done.