View Full Version : Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'
Personally I think the situation with Naim is that nobody wants to buy the stuff any more so the company is left with a "brand", which with the help of the Bentley fiasco, (car audio that actually is someone elses effort), the existing directors will flog off to some wealthy Arab, Chinese, Indian, or Russian buyer, pocket the cash and go home. "legacy" hifi is over.
As for Linn they have the same "legacy" problem, but the company has no money left either. It has to flog expensive products against manufacturers who are in much better financial position and can make more useful products at a lower price. They've got little chance imo.
If I know Ivor he is simply trying to prevent a "train crash" so that he has something left to "flog off".
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that both Naim and Linn are "up for sale" within the next twelve months.
It's a bit like BMW buying Rover group, hiving off the "Mini" badge and flogging the rest off to the Chinese.
Rolls and Bentley went the same way. They are "brands" these days.
Oooerr, I think I'll have a rest and a lie down in a dark room and leave the "ranting" to Richard.
I still think Linn and Naim make good gear, if somewhat over-priced.
I'm out of that commercial 'zone' now, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for enjoying their Linn and Naim gear :)
I had a full Naim electronics system for over five years (CDS2/52/135s) and enjoyed every moment of it. It worked great with the Spendors, too.
Marco.
Steve Toy
21-04-2008, 12:24
I enjoyed my Linn CD player and the Naim I had before it for as long as I owned them. At the time I bought these items respectively they offered excellent value for money.
Richard,
Have you looked at the pictures from the Owston valve fest - if so, what's your view of going the D.I.Y route and using neither dealers nor Ebay 'shopkeepers'? ;)
Personally, I learned much from Owston and the solely D.I.Y route interests me; certainly the way my system is now I doubt that I will ever need to use a dealer again.
Maybe all we need is a job lot of soldering irons and 'Electronics For Beginners' manuals?
<Discuss>
Marco.
Richard,
Have you looked at the pictures from the Owston valve fest - if so, what's your view of going the D.I.Y route and using neither dealers nor Ebay 'shopkeepers'? ;)
Personally, I learned much from Owston and the solely D.I.Y route interests me; certainly the way my system is now I doubt that I will ever need to use a dealer again.
Maybe all we need is a job lot of soldering irons and 'Electronics For Beginners' manuals?
<Discuss>
Marco.
I would happly lose sales to people who take up the soldering iron, it is how I started. DIYers are the salt of the earth (Hi-Fi Industry). They create badly mad crap, but it is their baby, and your own baby is always the most beautifull (nod to one nameless admins passive :mental:). They create ordinary product that gives them pleasure and fun. They create astounding product that points an arrow to the future due to non commercial motivation causing lateral thinking.
Todays DIYers are tomorrow industry as some progress (if that is the right word) to manufacture. Problem!!! some don't have business or money skills so they fall foul of the vultures and money men who then employ marketing men to run the company, full circle back to the horse crap again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This industry is (should be) a hobby, that hobby can follow two motivation 1 those that want to create 2 those that want to use - and the thing that binds them together is the love of music.
So as far as I am concerned I only produce product for those that can't, can't be bothered, or don't have time to take up the soldering iron, and I will encourage as many as can to try it, it is fun and very satifying. Even the odd explosion on the kitchen table is an experience :lolsign:
I'm watching this one very closely, Ashley. Don't try and turn this thread into another one centered around AVI.
If I see any evidence of this I will simply move the non-relevant posts to somewhere else or delete them. This thread WILL remain on-topic. You have been warned!
Marco.
Richard we're a small manufacturer, not as small as you, but with all the difficulties of establishing a business in a dying market, we both started as hobbyists and we've thought laterally and produced a product that rips the carpet out from under the present Cartel (albeit it an unintended cartel), so why is what we've done wrong and what you're suggesting right. Have we been too successful or something - perhaps you could explain.
Ash
PS. we've even reduced dealer margins so the customer gets better value for money. We've reduced overheads by subbing virtually everything and we've bought in quantity to keep costs down. We've done everything for the benefit of the customer and some can't believe it isn't a cynical trick!
Ashley get the ferk out of my thread with your horse shite.
Dealt with, Richard! :)
Back on topic...
Have you ever thought of setting up a school for teaching D.I.Y electronics and running it from your home? You could certainly charge for the service and use it to supplement your Ebay trading. It would be another way of 'striking a blow for the little man'. Just a thought!
Marco.
Dealt with, Richard! :)
Back on topic...
Have you ever thought of setting up a school for teaching D.I.Y electronics and running it from your home? You could certainly charge for the service and use it to supplement your Ebay trading. It would be another way of 'striking a blow for the little man'. Just a thought!
Marco.
Neither the time or the facilities, and you would all end up producing NVA's :lol:
I used to have a company with 11 employees and nearly 1 million turnover, virtually all export to the far east, reasons whys and wherefores I have explained in past posts. Now I work on my own doing what I want *through choice*. My primary work I still consider to be my Tai-Chi and Qigong school, though the audio work now contributes more money.
One of the basic Taoist premis is to be content with what you have and what life gives you and to go with the flow. But it also states that when you see disservice and exploitation and the power exploiting the weak it is your responsibility to respond to it. Where you see injustice it is your responsibility to show it. Makes me sound like the super hero I am :smoking: - super muppet.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew rules, OK!
I must admit that I admire much about the Chinese/oriental mentality and the way they live their life. There's a reason why they generally live longer than people from the Western world...
I also believe big time in Karma!
Hey you could always kill two birds with the one stone and teach the people in your Tai-Chi and Qigong school to make electronics...
A sort of 'dance as you solder' class :lol:
Marco.
Dealt with, Richard! :)
Back on topic...
Have you ever thought of setting up a school for teaching D.I.Y electronics and running it from your home?
Marco.
Even with Richard's inarguable expertise and experience I'd still end up blowing myself up.
Richard, apparently 'explosions' are all part of the fun.
I must admit that I have a penchant for blowing things up - my Yaqin amp is one of course! A friend and me also used to make our own fireworks as kids. What a riot that was! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Filterlab
23-04-2008, 11:45
We used to blow up toy cars with French bangers. Amps though, not something I'd want to go playing about with - the potential for explosion must be huge.
Richard, apparently 'explosions' are all part of the fun.
I must admit that I have a penchant for blowing things up - my Yaqin amp is one of course! A friend and me also used to make our own fireworks as kids. What a riot that was! :eyebrows:
Marco.
My early interest developed out of a childhood fascination with fires and matches. This progressed as Saturday boy at G.W.Smith & Co (Radio) Ltd in Lisle St in Soho in the mid to end 60's. Workbench in the cellar wiring up plugs and things for customers and in quiet times connecting different Guv Surplus components across a Safeblock to see which made the biggest bang and cloud of smoke :mental:
We used to blow up toy cars with French bangers. Amps though, not something I'd want to go playing about with - the potential for explosion must be huge.
Get a nice fat 10,000mfd electrolytic in the power supply and connect it the wrong way around, luvly, goes off like a stick of dynamite after few seconds.
I will never forget an assembly worker at MM Electronics in Royston doing that with a PA amp he was building. The explosion blew him off his chair with his hair and eyebrows on fire (Luckily he was wearing glasses). He didn't work for two years and had a nervous breakdown.
Filterlab
23-04-2008, 11:59
Blimey, who'd have thought electronics could cause so much damage!
Nice one :smoking:
We used to put some petrol into cars in disused scrap yards and shove a long home-made 'fuse' into the petrol tank, set it alight, and then run like f*ck and hide somewhere just in time before the huge explosion. It was f*cking loud, I can tell you! :lolsign:
When we were older we used to take shotguns into similar places and 'blow-out' the windows and tyres, and kid on that we were hunting someone down like mad psychos... :lol:
Tying home-made 'bangers' to stray cat's tails and watching them 'dance', was another of our jolly japes. These days, though, as an animal lover and cat owner I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.
Marco.
Whats all this bollox got to do with dealers ?
None of it is on topic ! Richard and Marco, you are both acting against your own insistances,
It makes all of you look silly and is very confusing for us lurkers.
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for that. Have you got anything else constructive to say? :lol:
This is Richard's thread, so if he feels the thread drift is 'wrong' he can say so. It's not up to you.
How's Birmingham, btw? ;)
Marco.
evilpsycho666
23-04-2008, 12:17
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for that. Have you got anything else constructive to say? :lol:
How's Birmingham, btw? ;)
Marco.
I dont know, hows Wrexham, and whats that got to do with anything.
Wrexham is fine, thanks.
I asked you how Birmingham is because you're from that area. JC in disguise, maybe? ;)
Marco.
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for that. Have you got anything else constructive to say? :lol:
This is Richard's thread, so if he feels the thread drift is 'wrong' he can say so. It's not up to you.
How's Birmingham, btw? ;)
Marco.
Actually he is right we are indulging ourselves.
BTW there is an adenda to the program you use for this forum that tells you when you have a dual poster, both ZG and PF use it. It flags it to admin.
Filterlab
23-04-2008, 12:23
Actually he is right we are indulging ourselves.
BTW there is an adenda to the program you use for this forum that tells you when you have a dual poster, both ZG and PF use it. It flags it to admin.
We've restricted users to one login each, software automatically prohibits dual logins by IP.
Ok, back to dealers and retailers, then?
Marco.
You'd better follow Richard's advice, and then apologise Marco.
evilpsycho666
23-04-2008, 12:27
I'm from Walsall, I dont know where JC is. I havent posted on this forum but I am known on others.
We've restricted users to one login each, software automatically prohibits dual logins by IP.
Well I am here twice, I joined under a nom de plume before I decided to be me. But I liked the picture so much I left it up, see if you can work out which it is :eyebrows:
Err, just a minute,
How about the apology Marco ?
I don't "better" have to do anything, JC! If it's not you, fair enough. I thought you might be having a laugh. Dry your eyes and get over it!
If someone joins as "evilpsycho666" it trips my troll alert, particularly as that person's first post is to instantly make criticisms. The normal procedure is to introduce yourself in the welcome area first before posting anywhere else.
No offence to 'evilpsycho666' if you're genuine, though :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 12:33
Actually he is right we are indulging ourselves.
BTW there is an adenda to the program you use for this forum that tells you when you have a dual poster, both ZG and PF use it. It flags it to admin.
I have on many ocasions being involved with the higher voltage end of electronics [valves] had quite severe shocks, i remember one such instance very vivid, i was testing an amp on the bench, and trying to reduce power supply hum, i tagged a 470uf 450v aerovox cap across the full HT [when it was off ] and turned on the amp, when i had tested what i needed, i unclipped the cap and put it on the bench, still fully charged! after i had finnished for the day i was tidying up my bench as i always do, and without thinking picked up the charged cap, touching both terminals as i did, well, lets just say, there was a lot of shouting, and leaping about, and a couple of holes in my hand where the terminals had burnt through!
not very clever i know, but it taught me a valueable lesson, now i avoid this by fitting discharge resistors! :mental:;):confused::mental:
I have on many ocasions being involved with the higher voltage end of electronics [valves] had quite severe shocks, i remember one such instance very vivid, i was testing an amp on the bench, and trying to reduce power supply hum, i tagged a 470uf 450v aerovox cap across the full HT [when it was off ] and turned on the amp, when i had tested what i needed, i unclipped the cap and put it on the bench, still fully charged! after i had finnished for the day i was tidying up my bench as i always do, and without thinking picked up the charged cap, touching both terminals as i did, well, lets just say, there was a lot of shouting, and leaping about, and a couple of holes in my hand where the terminals had burnt through!
not very clever i know, but it taught me a valueable lesson, now i avoid this by fitting discharge resistors! :mental:;):confused::mental:
:lolsign::lol::lolsign::lol::lolsign::lol:
luvly I had forgoten that one. One of the great jokes for other staff at the shop was to charge up a cap and leave it on the counter for someone else to put away. But not such a heavy duty one, just enough for a shout and and leap in the air :eek::eek::eek:
I'm still waiting for your apology Marco.
I'm from Walsall, I dont know where JC is. I havent posted on this forum but I am known on others.
No problem. Your IP address shows as 'Birmingham', although it could be a dynamic IP. No worries, though :)
Perhaps you could introduce yourself and list your system? We normally ask new members to do this. Check out the threads in our welcome area as a reference.
Marco.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 12:42
:lolsign::lol::lolsign::lol::lolsign::lol:
luvly I had forgoten that one. One of the great jokes for other staff at the shop was to charge up a cap and leave it on the counter for someone else to put away. But not such a heavy duty one, just enough for a shout and and leap in the air :eek::eek::eek:
yes, i had heard others putting charged caps in peoples pockets too!
nice people about.:mental::confused::eyebrows:;)
I have on many ocasions being involved with the higher voltage end of electronics [valves] had quite severe shocks, i remember one such instance very vivid, i was testing an amp on the bench, and trying to reduce power supply hum, i tagged a 470uf 450v aerovox cap across the full HT [when it was off ] and turned on the amp, when i had tested what i needed, i unclipped the cap and put it on the bench, still fully charged! after i had finnished for the day i was tidying up my bench as i always do, and without thinking picked up the charged cap, touching both terminals as i did, well, lets just say, there was a lot of shouting, and leaping about, and a couple of holes in my hand where the terminals had burnt through!
not very clever i know, but it taught me a valueable lesson, now i avoid this by fitting discharge resistors! :mental:;):confused::mental:
OO OO and another one - a repair techy at the shop who used to draw an arc off a CRT with a screwdiver to light his fag, well one day he got it wrong and now has a neat hole through his finger like it was done with a laser.
I'm still waiting for your apology Marco.
Well you'll be waiting a bloody long time then, sweetheart! I thought you were having a larf - you weren't, big deal. Get a grip and stop acting like a sissy :lol:
What do you have to say about the thread topic?
Marco.
So have we put you all off DIY :lol::lol::lol::lol:
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 12:52
OO OO and another one - a repair techy at the shop who used to draw an arc off a CRT with a screwdiver to light his fag, well one day he got it wrong and now has a neat hole through his finger like it was done with a laser.
ooooooooooo, i bet that hurt, did he give up smoking after that,? or go back to using the conventional lighter, or box of matches....:lolsign::eyebrows::mental::lol:
evilpsycho666
23-04-2008, 12:54
Ill check out your welcome area later, usually Im quite happy lurking but it was the change of content in this thread that I noticed. And the fact that the pretance was to keep it on topic. Marco and Richard are charlatans in that respect and nobdy else seems interested in keeping it on topic either.
On the whole I preferred it how it was at least Ashley had some real input as a manufacturer. I shall return to lurking. Oh and I think you do owe JC that apology.
Nope, but is that why techy's are either bald or have funny hairstyles? :lolsign:
Marco.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 12:57
Nope, but is that why techy's are either bald or have funny hairstyles? :lolsign:
Marco.
hey, watch it,
my missus cuts mine, i am just checking in the mirror,
fair comment!;) by the way, what is the topic of this thread?:doh:
Filterlab
23-04-2008, 13:00
Well I am here twice, I joined under a nom de plume before I decided to be me. But I liked the picture so much I left it up, see if you can work out which it is :eyebrows:
Sorry, I meant multiple usernames on one account, not multiple accounts.
Ill check out your welcome area later, usually Im quite happy lurking but it was the change of content in this thread that I noticed. And the fact that the pretance was to keep it on topic. Marco and Richard are charlatans in that respect and nobdy else seems interested in keeping it on topic either.
On the whole I preferred it how it was at least Ashley had some real input as a manufacturer. I shall return to lurking.
Suit yourself, mate. Still no sign of introducing your system, then? It would help if you told us who you posted as on other forums. If you're genuine then you won't have a problem with that. We have quite a few members here who also post on other forums, but they don't mind using the same name. I'm not aware of an 'evilpsycho666' existing elsewhere, so forgive me if I'm suspicious! ;)
As for staying on-topic, you're right. If Richard or any other established members have a problem with the thread drift they can say so and I'll do something about it, but it's a bit rich for you to join and complain in your first post!
Marco.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 13:15
Well your apology is due whether you like it or not Marco, you should not allow reluctance to brand you as "Ill mannered", by not issuing an apology where it's due.
As for the thread content, it is way off topic, and you are aggravating that error.
I'm not inclined to discourse with Richard because following his physical threats to Chris, and his reference to him yesterday in this thread as a "twat", I'm inclined to think Richard is somewhat mentally unstable and continues to deteriorate. I think those who care about him should be his friend and watch him carefully.
I shall remain in the sidelines
jc,
why dont you come out and tell us whats realy eating you up mate!
the way i see it is this, you and your mate, [who by the way i for one have defended many times] if not being able to twist what ever post you get involved with round to your way of thinking, you then go on to ruin every thread you can in some way or another, i like a joke mate you know that, but come on, this has gone too far even by my standards!!!!:doh::confused::mental:
Ian Walker
23-04-2008, 13:18
hey, watch it,
my missus cuts mine, i am just checking in the mirror,
fair comment!;) by the way, what is the topic of this thread?:doh:
Blimey i thought you got it done at your UNCLE BILLIES!:lol:
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 13:21
Blimey i thought you got it done at your UNCLE BILLIES!:lol:
whey hey, ;):lol:
carefull now, or get him to put a spell on those E.A.R's of yours....
:lol::lol::lol:
Anthony,
That's why I deleted his post, and if I see another one like it then it will be deleted again along with him!
Marco.
Anthony and Richard, I'm sorry but I had to delete your last posts to prevent this discussion going in an unwanted direction, even though there was nothing wrong with what you wrote.
JC,
You'll need to learn that this is not your forum. You have no 'rights'. You're here at our discretion as a privilege. I don't care what you think I should do. The fact is we're in charge and you do as you're told and respect our wishes without endless retorts. Now don't bother coming back until you've got something to say about hi-fi, music, or permitted off-topic stuff, otherwise you will be banned - make no mistake about that.
You have been warned!
Back to whatever Richard would like to discuss on his thread...
Marco.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 14:01
Anthony and Richard, I'm sorry but I had to delete your last posts to prevent this discussion going in an unwanted direction, even though there was nothing wrong with what you wrote.
JC,
You'll need to learn that this is not your forum. You have no 'rights'. You're here at our discretion as a privilege. I don't care what you think I should do. The fact is we're in charge and you do as you're told and respect our wishes without endless retorts. Now don't bother coming back until you've got something to say about hi-fi, music, or off-topic stuff, otherwise you will be banned - make no mistake about that.
You have been warned!
Back to whatever Richard would like to discuss on his thread...
Marco.
fine,
no worries, mine was a bit of genuine advice, but i guess it would have fallen on deaf ears anyway...:(
The big squeeze is on, fun and bargains for everyone.
For those non ebay watchers who haven't noticed, the retailers are jumping on ebay to try and shift stock, and prices are plummeting. If you pay full retailer whack for something at the moment you are daft, 30% discount will become the norm as they steadily go bust.
Linn dealers are trying to offload stock, which is very interesting, as it is known the company has problems. Even some Naim dealers are panicking.
But it is trade ins and old stock that is mostly being put up and is also mostly going up with no reserve, and going prices are 50% less (equivelent) than last year I estimate.
So the process starts, I will enjoy watching it.
Anyway we have had our fun kiddies, now back to topic.
Now we have a burgioning community of Hi-Fi - AV - DIY forums it leaves a couple of questions.
What do we need magazines and reviewers for now - we can do it ourselves. Hi-Fi masturbation, you know what Marco does to make his valve amps sticky. OK some awkward gits like Marco and me get banned from some forums but so what! everyone has a home. Who can give you the best knowledge about product - the users? the manufacturers? the retailers? or the marketers? it really is a no brainer isn't it!
Everyone in between you and the guy who designs and makes your gear is an on cost - you pay for it, and in this industry that accounts for at least a doubling of the price you pay.
Look at ebay for the changing world. It wont always stay on ebay, monopolies always out think themselves, and manufacturers websites will be good too. But we are getting near to an internet re think and re invent which I am sure will give other possibilities. Still though very few who sell through their own websites are passing the saving to you, must are still keeping a retail price the same as if it was retailed to you. I sell at ebay at 50% off the prices I would use if I went through retail or wanted to keep those margins.
Who can stop it - well you - stand up for yourself. If you want a product approach the *manufacturer* and ask to buy it, refuse to go through a retailer, demand a trade price. Most manufacturers will tell you to sod off, but so what, if they get a hundred calls like that a day and their product is not selling in the shops what do you think will happen :scratch:
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 14:16
Anyway we have had our fun kiddies, now back to topic.
Now we have a burgioning community of Hi-Fi - AV - DIY forums it leaves a couple of questions.
What do we need magazines and reviewers for now - we can do it ourselves. Hi-Fi masturbation, you know what Marco does to make his valve amps sticky. OK some awkward gits like Marco and me get banned from some forums but so what! everyone has a home. Who can give you the best knowledge about product - the users? the manufacturers? the retailers? or the marketers? it really is a no brainer isn't it!
Everyone in between you and the guy who designs and makes your gear is an on cost - you pay for it, and in this industry that accounts for at least a doubling of the price you pay.
Look at ebay for the changing world. It wont always stay on ebay, monopolies always out think themselves, and manufacturers websites will be good too. But we are getting near to an internet re think and re invent which I am sure will give other possibilities. Still though very few who sell through their own websites are passing the saving to you, must are still keeping a retail price the same as if it was retailed to you. I sell at ebay at 50% off the prices I would use if I went through retail or wanted to keep those margins.
Who can stop it - well you - stand up for yourself. If you want a product approach the *manufacturer* and ask to buy it, refuse to go through a retailer, demand a trade price. Most manufacturers will tell you to sod off, but so what, if they get a hundred calls like that a day and their product is not selling in the shops what do you think will happen :scratch:
richard,
the problem [IMHO] thats holding people back from doing exactly what you have said here is, they are afraid to put their money down before some [and in most cases] know-all reviewer, or sales man has put his two penneth in and assured them that its the best thing since sliced bread, in other words they dont have enough back bone to judge things for themselves basically!!!!;):)
richard,
the problem [IMHO] thats holding people back from doing exactly what you have said here is, they are afraid to put their money down before some [and in most cases] know-all reviewer, or sales man has put his two penneth in and assured them that its the best thing since sliced bread, in other words they dont have enough back bone to judge things for themselves basically!!!!;):)
No matter what Marx (not Groucho sadly) said revolutions do not happen in a day. Old think dominates, new ideas take time to propogate, some people are more open to change than others.
Community potentially can provide everything you need and take over from the on cost slurpers. I recommend all here to join Wigwam (even though I am banned, which some might say will be a relief) if not a member and look at the bake-off and meetings forum and threads. Users listening to each others kit, borrowing, selling to each other surplus gear, and a lot more of it is happening one to one and not being talked about there.
Come on Marco and other admins start a Bake-off sub forum and establish who is near to each other and encourage meetings and listening evenings. I have said before and will say again if any genuine bake-off wants an NVA product to listen to, what ever it is, if I have it spare you can borrow it for the event.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 14:50
No matter what Marx (not Groucho sadly) said revolutions do not happen in a day. Old think dominates, new ideas take time to propogate, some people are more open to change than others.
Community potentially can provide everything you need and take over from the on cost slurpers. I recommend all here to join Wigwam (even though I am banned, which some might say will be a relief) if not a member and look at the bake-off and meetings forum and threads. Users listening to each others kit, borrowing, selling to each other surplus gear, and a lot more of it is happening one to one and not being talked about there.
Come on Marco and other admins start a Bake-off sub forum and establish who is near to each other and encourage meetings and listening evenings. I have said before and will say again if any genuine bake-off wants an NVA product to listen to, what ever it is, if I have it spare you can borrow it for the event.
richard,
i think thats a good idea... i used to be a part of a company that had [has ?]a big influence over what some reviewers and dealers would promote and sell, i never felt comfortable in that inviroment, or the person i was in business with for that matter [but thats a diffrent story] eventually i had to make a decision, i got out! i knew from that moment on that what i had decided to do was not likely to make me a millionaire, but it was never all about the money for me anyway, [although i do apriciate it] now, i do pretty much what i like, i take on work that i want to do, and i promote genuinely good products of my own creation and others. i have found that people with any sense will see through all the crap that was related to the type of products and people i used to be involved with, and once you have enlightend them and demonstrated what small bespoke manufactures are capable of, they stick with you, and learn to trust you, that is just as satisfying to me as the money aspect of it....;)
richard,
i think thats a good idea... i used to be a part of a company that had [has ?]a big influence over what some reviewers and dealers would promote and sell, i never felt comfortable in that inviroment, or the person i was in business with for that matter [but thats a diffrent story] eventually i had to make a decision, i got out! i knew from that moment on that what i had decided to do was not likely to make me a millionaire, but it was never all about the money for me anyway, [although i do apriciate it] now, i do pretty much what i like, i take on work that i want to do, and i promote genuinely good products of my own creation and others. i have found that people with any sense will see through all the crap that was related to the type of products and people i used to be involved with, and once you have enlightend them and demonstrated what small bespoke manufactures are capable of, they stick with you, and learn to trust you, that is just as satisfying to me as the money aspect of it....;)
Imagine a world where all the techys throw off the shackles of the accountants and money men, the marketing men, the reviewers, the magazine editors and advertising depts and finally the retailers, and joined forums with you lot. And everyone automatically looked at the net for information and community to find where like product was being used and had friends to learn from instead of vultures circling around their wallets. Most techys are banned from forums by the companies they work for in case they mess up the company line in bullshit or show up the marketing men for what they are with some real information for a change.
I am beginning to sound like John Lennon and "imagine" :)
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 15:52
Imagine a world where all the techys throw off the shackles of the accountants and money men, the marketing men, the reviewers, the magazine editors and advertising depts and finally the retailers, and joined forums with you lot. And everyone automatically looked at the net for information and community to find where like product was being used and had friends to learn from instead of vultures circling around their wallets. Most techys are banned from forums by the companies they work for in case they mess up the company line in bullshit or show up the marketing men for what they are with some real information for a change.
I am beginning to sound like John Lennon and "imagine" :)
imagine that!
ohh there i go as well, we will have to be carefull they dont program someone to shoot us too!!!;):):lol:
richard,
the problem [IMHO] thats holding people back from doing exactly what you have said here is, they are afraid to put their money down before some [and in most cases] know-all reviewer, or sales man has put his two penneth in and assured them that its the best thing since sliced bread, in other words they dont have enough back bone to judge things for themselves basically!!!!;):)
Anthony, I think that is part of the problem for sure but not the whole enchilada. I am certainly one of the people with backbone enough to make my own decisions but at times this can be difficult. Sometimes the manufacturers and/or distributors manage to shoot themselves firmly in the foot. A recent personal experience when I was looking to change speakers brought this home to me. I will not mention the names for fear of retribution but a little lateral thinking based on what I did end up buying will probably get you the answer.
I wanted to listen to a pair of speakers by maker X. I contacted the distributor only to be told that he only currently had a much smaller model in the country. So I said that I would certainly like to hear that but was really looking further up the range than that. He then said he would arrange for the manufacturer to send a pair of the more upmarket speakers for my evaluation. Two weeks passed with no word, bear in mind the manufacturer is European based, so I again contacted the distributor and basically I got an "I really can't be bothered response". This infuriated me a little and so I grabbed the bull by the horns and directly contacted the manufacturer. I told them what I was trying to do and the difficulties I'd encountered. Their response was even more amazing, along the lines of we don't do enough business in the UK to bother. Needless to say at this point I decided to not pursue the quest any further.
Two different strands of apathy here.
One a distributor who didn't want to put himself out on a maybe purchaser, this I can almost understand as from what I understand most demo models have to be paid for by the distributor.
The manufacturer response just baffled me. They have distribution here that you would have thought indicated a desire to build their market over here. At the time they had an interested customer with £10K burning a hole in his pocket they just shuffled off shrugging their shoulders.
Just my .02
Nick
Anthony, I think that is part of the problem for sure but not the whole enchilada. I am certainly one of the people with backbone enough to make my own decisions but at times this can be difficult. Sometimes the manufacturers and/or distributors manage to shoot themselves firmly in the foot. A recent personal experience when I was looking to change speakers brought this home to me. I will not mention the names for fear of retribution but a little lateral thinking based on what I did end up buying will probably get you the answer.
I wanted to listen to a pair of speakers by maker X. I contacted the distributor only to be told that he only currently had a much smaller model in the country. So I said that I would certainly like to hear that but was really looking further up the range than that. He then said he would arrange for the manufacturer to send a pair of the more upmarket speakers for my evaluation. Two weeks passed with no word, bear in mind the manufacturer is European based, so I again contacted the distributor and basically I got an "I really can't be bothered response". This infuriated me a little and so I grabbed the bull by the horns and directly contacted the manufacturer. I told them what I was trying to do and the difficulties I'd encountered. Their response was even more amazing, along the lines of we don't do enough business in the UK to bother. Needless to say at this point I decided to not pursue the quest any further.
Two different strands of apathy here.
One a distributor who didn't want to put himself out on a maybe purchaser, this I can almost understand as from what I understand most demo models have to be paid for by the distributor.
The manufacturer response just baffled me. They have distribution here that you would have thought indicated a desire to build their market over here. At the time they had an interested customer with £10K burning a hole in his pocket they just shuffled off shrugging their shoulders.
Just my .02
Nick
If you want to do something then do it. If it was in Europe how far was it to go to get a dem and make a purchase. £10k is a lot of money to worry about a trip to Europe to listen, and have a break and a look around. British are just sooooo parochial.
If you want to do something then do it. If it was in Europe how far was it to go to get a dem and make a purchase. £10k is a lot of money to worry about a trip to Europe to listen, and have a break and a look around. British are just sooooo parochial.
That's an incredible answer !!
So you think that I as a buyer spending a fair amount of money should travel to Europe just to audition something which has distributorship over here ?
Surely this is the job of a distributor. Coupled to which why would I invest my hard earned buying a product from a company that obviously didn't give a flying fig ?
Then we also come across the warranty issues, in the event of a problem I'm going to have to stump up for shipping to Europe instead of local (UK) support ?
It's not a question of wanting to do something more akin to having a dog and wagging it's tail for it.
That's an incredible answer !!
So you think that I as a buyer spending a fair amount of money should travel to Europe just to audition something which has distributorship over here ?
Surely this is the job of a distributor. Coupled to which why would I invest my hard earned buying a product from a company that obviously didn't give a flying fig ?
Then we also come across the warranty issues, in the event of a problem I'm going to have to stump up for shipping to Europe instead of local (UK) support ?
It's not a question of wanting to do something more akin to having a dog and wagging it's tail for it.
Do as you wish it is none of my business. It just seemed it was important to hear them so I made a suggestion. The Hi-Fi industry owes you nothing and doesn't have to perform and wag its tail to your whims. There are many things we can't buy for one reason or another, it is not the end of the world.
Anyway I hope you enjoy what you have now, if they don't get your business it is their loss.
anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 21:18
Anthony, I think that is part of the problem for sure but not the whole enchilada. I am certainly one of the people with backbone enough to make my own decisions but at times this can be difficult. Sometimes the manufacturers and/or distributors manage to shoot themselves firmly in the foot. A recent personal experience when I was looking to change speakers brought this home to me. I will not mention the names for fear of retribution but a little lateral thinking based on what I did end up buying will probably get you the answer.
I wanted to listen to a pair of speakers by maker X. I contacted the distributor only to be told that he only currently had a much smaller model in the country. So I said that I would certainly like to hear that but was really looking further up the range than that. He then said he would arrange for the manufacturer to send a pair of the more upmarket speakers for my evaluation. Two weeks passed with no word, bear in mind the manufacturer is European based, so I again contacted the distributor and basically I got an "I really can't be bothered response". This infuriated me a little and so I grabbed the bull by the horns and directly contacted the manufacturer. I told them what I was trying to do and the difficulties I'd encountered. Their response was even more amazing, along the lines of we don't do enough business in the UK to bother. Needless to say at this point I decided to not pursue the quest any further.
Two different strands of apathy here.
One a distributor who didn't want to put himself out on a maybe purchaser, this I can almost understand as from what I understand most demo models have to be paid for by the distributor.
The manufacturer response just baffled me. They have distribution here that you would have thought indicated a desire to build their market over here. At the time they had an interested customer with £10K burning a hole in his pocket they just shuffled off shrugging their shoulders.
Just my .02
Nick
nick,
thats terible! just goes to show that nothing is clear cut, and that on times manufacturers can also be just as bad [worse in your case] than their distributors...:(
Also somewhat surprising considering many overseas manufactures seem to regard the UK as 'Treasure Island' is so much as they can seemingly charge more or less whatever they like. Including the usual ridiculous markup for their distributor/dealers.
I wonder if the same speakers would have been quite so expensive 'over there' ??? :scratch:
Also somewhat surprising considering many overseas manufactures seem to regard the UK as 'Treasure Island' is so much as they can seemingly charge more or less whatever they like. Including the usual ridiculous markup for their distributor/dealers.
I wonder if the same speakers would have been quite so expensive 'over there' ??? :scratch:
Germany France and Italy are just as bad as us, best bargains are in Holland and Belgium.
Take a trip to the Far East and in Singapore and Hong Kong you will pay 30% less for UK manufactured product than you do here :mental:
Take a trip to the US and you will pay 30 to 40% less than you do here for UK manufactured product and 50% less for US manufactured product :mental:
They say voters get the government they deserve, and I am afraid Hi-Fi enthusiast get the Hi-Fi industry they deserve, so vote with your feet, that is the only thing that will change it.
I've never actually voted for any of our so called governments!
Well.... there was that time when I voted for the Green Party, but I was young and stoned in those days.... :confused: :mental:
As for voting with my feet, well I'd like to think that I'm doing that in some small way by sticking mostly to the DIY side of things these days, or using the second hand market when possible.
Of course I do need to buy new components (as in resistors, valves etc) from time to time, and I'm not up to making a DVD player or TV from scratch!
Do as you wish it is none of my business. It just seemed it was important to hear them so I made a suggestion. The Hi-Fi industry owes you nothing and doesn't have to perform and wag its tail to your whims. There are many things we can't buy for one reason or another, it is not the end of the world.
Anyway I hope you enjoy what you have now, if they don't get your business it is their loss.
You're right, it is my business.
The hi-fi industry owes me something as a prospective purchaser and that is simply consideration. I really wasn't asking anyone to do anything other than the job they put themselves forward to do, in normal business that is expected and doesn't constitute some kind of favour. Yes, at the time it was in my list to hear the items but after considerable effort on my part it seemed no one was interested. At that point I wonder about all the other things like customer service in the event of problems etc;
You are aware of the requirement of some kind of service for a customer ?
You have at least helped me in one area, with the pompous attitude you have displayed I certainly wouldn't be buying any of your products, period. With that I'm out of this thread.
You're right, it is my business.
The hi-fi industry owes me something as a prospective purchaser and that is simply consideration. I really wasn't asking anyone to do anything other than the job they put themselves forward to do, in normal business that is expected and doesn't constitute some kind of favour. Yes, at the time it was in my list to hear the items but after considerable effort on my part it seemed no one was interested. At that point I wonder about all the other things like customer service in the event of problems etc;
You are aware of the requirement of some kind of service for a customer ?
You have at least helped me in one area, with the pompous attitude you have displayed I certainly wouldn't be buying any of your products, period. With that I'm out of this thread.
Oh dear, thats sad!
All I did was offer you a solution, but if you went at them like you are now doing at me when you can't get your own way, can you blame them. Most high end distributors have an attitude, it goes with the job so it seems. Something to do with making themselves as superior as their products, perhaps to justify their ridiculous mark-ups. Anyway anyone who is willing to pay £10k for a couple of lumps of wood with some drivers in them is just labelling themselves as a patsy, no matter what is in it they cannot justify that price, you can get a new car for that for heaven sake and that has massive mark up as well. You are probably paying under £1000 for the speaker and the rest for nothing but to keep the fat gits in fat gits toys.
Oh dear, thats sad!
All I did was offer you a solution, but if you went at them like you are now doing at me when you can't get your own way, can you blame them. Most high end distributors have an attitude, it goes with the job so it seems. Something to do with making themselves as superior as their products, perhaps to justify their ridiculous mark-ups. Anyway anyone who is willing to pay £10k for a couple of lumps of wood with some drivers in them is just labelling themselves as a patsy, no matter what is in it they cannot justify that price, you can get a new car for that for heaven sake and that has massive mark up as well. You are probably paying under £1000 for the speaker and the rest for nothing but to keep the fat gits in fat gits toys.
Oh dear indeed, this is sad !!
I did say I'd be leaving this thread but when someone calls me a "patsy" I feel I have to respond.
You offered a solution ?? All you offered was that I should chase around half the world to audition a product supposedly supported in my country of residence.
My response to you was not at all about "not getting my own way". It was all about the arrogant attitude you seem to have towards customers. Spending a deal of money, whatever it's being spent on, does bring with it some expectation of customer service. All I pointed out in my original post was that in some cases this service was severely lacking.
My original post merely described a situation which I feel illustrates part of the reason for the decline of the hi-fi industry. Some how you managed to turn it into a personal attack where everything was my fault and down to my attitude.
You really need to look at your attitude, I feel. You have a very confrontational style and quickly resort to personal remarks rather than attempt to empathise with a point of view. This to my mind isn't constructive discussion more like "neener neener" school bully tactics. This might intimidate some people, it doesn't work with me.
How dare you call me a "patsy" !! I have conducted my posts, incidentally not really directly aimed at you, without resorting to name calling. It seems that if someone comes along who doesn't agree with you the toys come flying out of your pram. I "went at you", again without resorting to name calling, because your initial response to my post was to tell me I was to blame :scratch:
As it turned I came in well under my £10k budget and am very happy with the product I bought and the service of both distributor and manufacturer.
Anything else you'd like to call me ?
Oh dear indeed, this is sad !!
I did say I'd be leaving this thread but when someone calls me a "patsy" I feel I have to respond.
You offered a solution ?? All you offered was that I should chase around half the world to audition a product supposedly supported in my country of residence.
My response to you was not at all about "not getting my own way". It was all about the arrogant attitude you seem to have towards customers. Spending a deal of money, whatever it's being spent on, does bring with it some expectation of customer service. All I pointed out in my original post was that in some cases this service was severely lacking.
My original post merely described a situation which I feel illustrates part of the reason for the decline of the hi-fi industry. Some how you managed to turn it into a personal attack where everything was my fault and down to my attitude.
You really need to look at your attitude, I feel. You have a very confrontational style and quickly resort to personal remarks rather than attempt to empathise with a point of view. This to my mind isn't constructive discussion more like "neener neener" school bully tactics. This might intimidate some people, it doesn't work with me.
How dare you call me a "patsy" !! I have conducted my posts, incidentally not really directly aimed at you, without resorting to name calling. It seems that if someone comes along who doesn't agree with you the toys come flying out of your pram. I "went at you", again without resorting to name calling, because your initial response to my post was to tell me I was to blame :scratch:
As it turned I came in well under my £10k budget and am very happy with the product I bought and the service of both distributor and manufacturer.
Anything else you'd like to call me ?
It cost less and takes less time now-a-days to get to Western Europe than going up and down the UK. But *you* see it as going half way around the world :confused:
I reiterate - *anyone* who spends £10k on a pair of speakers is a patsy as far as I am concerned, you paid less, good for you. £10k was *your* figure not mine.
As to attitude I say what I think, you don't like it which is fine by me. I have not been hot under the collar in any of these posts with you, but you seem to have a propensity for hotness and anger, I would say watch the blood pressure if you react this strongly to simple conversation, but I am sure you would get angry at this as well.
Filterlab
24-04-2008, 09:27
If anything, buy second-hand. At least then someone else has paid for the profit, well to a degree anyway.
It cost less and takes less time now-a-days to get to Western Europe than going up and down the UK. But *you* see it as going half way around the world :confused:
This is another example of how the slurpers get you, they want their exclusive patches, be that town for a retailer, or country for a distributor. It is all a con and against both UK and EU trading laws. *No* EU manufacturer can refuse to service product within a three year period from new if you are an original purchaser and if they cannot service it then you are entitled under EU law to get a replacement of same or similar specs and of similar or less age.
So you can buy in the EU with the same protection and warranty as you have in the UK. OK shipping costs are higher but with the likes of DHL as booked through Interparcel being nearly as cheap to EU as UK what is the problem. We are in a single market, which is why I said the Brits are so parochial, also VAT is paid at country of purchase and VAT in *every* EU country is cheaper than ours - rip off UK again.
It cost less and takes less time now-a-days to get to Western Europe than going up and down the UK. But *you* see it as going half way around the world :confused:
I reiterate - *anyone* who spends £10k on a pair of speakers is a patsy as far as I am concerned, you paid less, good for you. £10k was *your* figure not mine.
As to attitude I say what I think, you don't like it which is fine by me. I have not been hot under the collar in any of these posts with you, but you seem to have a propensity for hotness and anger, I would say watch the blood pressure if you react this strongly to simple conversation, but I am sure you would get angry at this as well.
OK let me deal with each point one at a time.
Granted it takes less money and time to travel to Europe these days. I do *know* this as I've travelled extensively on business. This wasn't my original point. I was merely pointing out that one wouldn't expect to have to travel outside the country when distributorship was available internally.
You make the blanket *patsy* statement with no reference. Your inference is some kind of mental deficiency is required for that kind of expenditure. Of course that's your *opinion* and you're entitled to it. I feel I got value for my money in the purchase I made and that's really what counts in this case. In my original post I didn't request comment on whether my intended expenditure was sensible you put forward that, rather blanket, opinion without request.
Finally you don't know me at all so let's dispense with the online psycho-analysis. I don't have a propensity for hotness or anger. What I do object to is the way you turned my anecdotal evidence of a less than satisfactory, *my view*, transaction with a section of the hi-fi industry into a personal dissection. I haven't got angry by what you've said just mildly irritated. By the way my blood pressure is fine, thanks for your concern. Although this little snipe is really not relevant to the discussion.
I appreciate you haven't been hot under the collar but your style is confrontational to me and, I have noted in other exchanges, to others. Often this kind of directness appears rude in flat type even when not intended.
Saying what you think isn't always as admirable as you seem to think. It's sometimes more conducive to reasonable conversation to hold back an opinion which isn't actually relevant to the discussion in hand.
Cheers
Nick
anthonyTD
24-04-2008, 10:10
OK let me deal with each point one at a time.
Granted it takes less money and time to travel to Europe these days. I do *know* this as I've travelled extensively on business. This wasn't my original point. I was merely pointing out that one wouldn't expect to have to travel outside the country when distributorship was available internally.
You make the blanket *patsy* statement with no reference. Your inference is some kind of mental deficiency is required for that kind of expenditure. Of course that's your *opinion* and you're entitled to it. I feel I got value for my money in the purchase I made and that's really what counts in this case. In my original post I didn't request comment on whether my intended expenditure was sensible you put forward that, rather blanket, opinion without request.
Finally you don't know me at all so let's dispense with the online psycho-analysis. I don't have a propensity for hotness or anger. What I do object to is the way you turned my anecdotal evidence of a less than satisfactory, *my view*, transaction with a section of the hi-fi industry into a personal dissection. I haven't got angry by what you've said just mildly irritated. By the way my blood pressure is fine, thanks for your concern. Although this little snipe is really not relevant to the discussion.
I appreciate you haven't been hot under the collar but your style is confrontational to me and, I have noted in other exchanges, to others. Often this kind of directness appears rude in flat type even when not intended.
Saying what you think isn't always as admirable as you seem to think. It's sometimes more conducive to reasonable conversation to hold back an opinion which isn't actually relevant to the discussion in hand.
Cheers
Nick
quite right;):)
VAT in *every* EU country is cheaper than ours - rip off UK again.
Actually, out of the 27 member countries of the EU, the UK has the 4th lowest rate of VAT.
Only Cyprus (15%), Spain (16%) and Luxembourg (15%) are lower than our paltry 17.5%.
http://www.scopulus.co.uk/taxsheets/european_vat_rates.htm
Still, don't let hard facts get in the way of a good rant!
Ed.
Actually, out of the 27 member countries of the EU, the UK has the 4th lowest rate of VAT.
Only Cyprus (15%), Spain (16%) and Luxembourg (15%) are lower than our paltry 17.5%.
http://www.scopulus.co.uk/taxsheets/european_vat_rates.htm
Still, don't let hard facts get in the way of a good rant!
Ed.
Whoops!! well you must be right. The last time I think I looked about 2 to 3 years ago I am sure we were about the most expensive. Things must have changed.
stupinder
24-04-2008, 10:58
France 19.7%
Steve Toy
24-04-2008, 11:15
A couple of things,
Richard, cut the insults. There is a pattern emerging here that I don't like where some individuals think that, by softening the tone of the insult a little, we admin will think it softens the impact so as not to cause offence when the intent is to do just that. Dodging around some notion of an AUP that doesn't actually exist really isn't going to cut it here - we have an ethos instead of which we expect everyone to embrace the spirit not follow to the letter. Your views, much of which I respect even if I don't agree with, would carry more weight if you could temper the bitter, twisted and angry aspect to your posting.
Nick,
One of the harsh realities of life I guess is that as much as you are free to buy or not to buy, the guy from whom you may wish to purchase is as free to sell or not to sell. In my line of work I often refuse business because it is either uneconomical or just not worth the hassle and I'm not talking about any risk of getting my head kicked in either.
Most large companies have a customer services operation that aims to keep customers happy on their behalf. If you are not happy with the service you receive from any given manufacturer as a prospective customer you can opt to escalate matters to someone more senior on the basic assumption that those above will want your business. If you've spoken to the big boss and he's clearely not interested then too bad. You'll just have to take your money elsewhere.
Making you, the customer feel special is a means to an end not an end in itself.
Nick,
One of the harsh realities of life I guess is that as much as you are free to buy or not to buy, the guy from whom you may wish to purchase is as free to sell or not to sell. In my line of work I often refuse business because it is either uneconomical or just not worth the hassle and I'm not talking about any risk of getting my head kicked in either.
Most large companies have a customer services operation that aims to keep customers happy on their behalf. If you are not happy with the service you receive from any given manufacturer as a prospective customer you can opt to escalate matters to someone more senior on the basic assumption that those above will want your business. If you've spoken to the big boss and he's clearely not interested then too bad. You'll just have to take your money elsewhere.
Making you, the customer feel special is a means to an end not an end in itself.
Hi Steve
I understand all you say and in fact I did take my money elsewhere when I realised I was flogging a dead horse (no offence intended Mr Ed :)).
I wasn't expecting to be made to feel special just to be helped to listen to the product they were selling. End of the day I'm happy with where I went and they lost a sale.
Now I'll just wait for the company concerned to start whining about how poor the demand for their product appears to be !! ;)
Cheers
Nick
Steve Toy
24-04-2008, 12:17
Now I'll just wait for the company concerned to start whining about how poor the demand for their product appears to be !!
Hopefully yes!
A couple of things,
Richard, cut the insults. There is a pattern emerging here that I don't like where some individuals think that, by softening the tone of the insult a little, we admin will think it softens the impact so as not to cause offence when the intent is to do just that. Dodging around some notion of an AUP that doesn't actually exist really isn't going to cut it here - we have an ethos instead of which we expect everyone to embrace the spirit not follow to the letter. Your views, much of which I respect even if I don't agree with, would carry more weight if you could temper the bitter, twisted and angry aspect to your posting.
Completely dissagree, there was nothing insulting veiled or otherwise in what I wrote, in fact you paraphrased it in the latter part of this post, are you insulting him? There have been more insult in his replies than my post, but whatever. If you look for something you want to find I am sure you will find it. He over reacted - full stop, with anger and agression which *was not* reflected in *my* post. Seems strange for me to be defending a distributor, but you if see the behaviour of some (very few) customers who are just up their **** regarding what they think are their rights and your duties you would see what I mean. Problem is until you actually buy something you have no rights and they have no duties, and sometimes you just get so much demand for attention and continual questioning as though you are dealing with a child it is much simpler to say sorry but I just do not want your business. Like all relationships a little common sense is required which is all I was trying to convey.
Steve Toy
24-04-2008, 13:37
Problem is until you actually buy something you have no rights and they have no duties, and sometimes you just get so much demand for attention and continual questioning as though you are dealing with a child it is much simpler to say sorry but I just do not want your business. Like all relationships a little common sense is required which is all I was trying to convey.
Richard,
I agree with the above 100%. All I ask is that you do your bit to relieve us all of the confrontation element existing on both sides of any given heated debate.
As for the future of dealers the golden age of hi-fi is definitely over and many dealers will find it tough trading as a result. As fuel, taxes and food go up and earnings don't, people will have less to spend. This is precipitating the decline that began in the nineties as hi-fi became stigmatised in a brave new world of glossy lifestyle magazines, style over substance as well as more other new things like computers, AV and games consoles to tempt us to part with any disposable income we may yet still have left.
The situation is no different in France where I spoke to the son of the owner of Amplitude in Tours. I was surprised to find even one hi-fi shop but aparently back in the late 80s there were 17 of them in a city roughly the size of Derby. Perhaps the decline in the number of dealers is both inevitable and serves as a form of natural justice.
However, there are one or two dealers out there that genuinely do add value to your purchases in making the whole of your system greater than the sum of the parts. As these few dealers continue to prosper - and they are, others may follow and build on their good practice within a few years. These things tend to go in cycles.
Completely dissagree, there was nothing insulting veiled or otherwise in what I wrote, in fact you paraphrased it in the latter part of this post, are you insulting him? There have been more insult in his replies than my post, but whatever. If you look for something you want to find I am sure you will find it. He over reacted - full stop, with anger and agression which *was not* reflected in *my* post. Seems strange for me to be defending a distributor, but you if see the behaviour of some (very few) customers who are just up their **** regarding what they think are their rights and your duties you would see what I mean. Problem is until you actually buy something you have no rights and they have no duties, and sometimes you just get so much demand for attention and continual questioning as though you are dealing with a child it is much simpler to say sorry but I just do not want your business. Like all relationships a little common sense is required which is all I was trying to convey.
Ok Richard, I'd really like to draw a line under this for good and then I'm going to leave you to your view of the world.
Your reply to my initial post was condescending and patronising in the extreme. From there on you just let it get more personal in my view.
At no point in our exchanges did I resort to name calling, for example, the term *patsy*. I did say I thought you had a pompous tone to your replies and I still stand by that.
As a customer I'm certainly not up my own rear end. I didn't mention my *rights* or their *duty*, I merely detailed my interaction with company(s) who were supposedly in business to sell product but were seemingly disinterested in doing so. Those terms have all been introduced into the exchange by yourself. Of course they are entitled not to sell me anything but the efforts made by them were minimal.
I certainly didn't demand in a child like way and in fact all my communications with both parties were cordial and civil, even at the point where I expressed that I wasn't going to consider the product further.
I know about demanding clients in my line of work but I'm always as positive and helpful as I can be in those kind of situations. Perhaps you might want to try and view things from the other side of the fence now and again.
I want to bring this to a reasonably happy end but every time I do you have to prod one more time. I hope this now explains my reason for the initial post and the ones following.
Cheers
Nick
Ok Richard, I'd really like to draw a line under this for good and then I'm going to leave you to your view of the world.
Your reply to my initial post was condescending and patronising in the extreme. From there on you just let it get more personal in my view.
At no point in our exchanges did I resort to name calling, for example, the term *patsy*. I did say I thought you had a pompous tone to your replies and I still stand by that.
As a customer I'm certainly not up my own rear end. I didn't mention my *rights* or their *duty*, I merely detailed my interaction with company(s) who were supposedly in business to sell product but were seemingly disinterested in doing so. Those terms have all been introduced into the exchange by yourself. Of course they are entitled not to sell me anything but the efforts made by them were minimal.
I certainly didn't demand in a child like way and in fact all my communications with both parties were cordial and civil, even at the point where I expressed that I wasn't going to consider the product further.
I know about demanding clients in my line of work but I'm always as positive and helpful as I can be in those kind of situations. Perhaps you might want to try and view things from the other side of the fence now and again.
I want to bring this to a reasonably happy end but every time I do you have to prod one more time. I hope this now explains my reason for the initial post and the ones following.
Cheers
Nick
You have a problem sir! everytime I make a generalisation or reply to someone elses post you take it as aimed at you. This is not a personal letter (and nor were the others) sent to *you* it is a reply to a forum post, which means it is addressed to the *whole* forum. So "patsy" referred to anyone willing to pay 10 grand for a speaker *in my opinion* and "up your ****" or child like behaviour wasn't even connected to you in any way or even as a reply to your remarks, it was a reply to another poster.
You are reacting and getting angry out of context. The whole world is not on your back there are others out there you know. Why do you have take it all so personally?
Richard,
I agree with the above 100%. All I ask is that you do your bit to relieve us all of the confrontation element existing on both sides of any given heated debate.
As for the future of dealers the golden age of hi-fi is definitely over and many dealers will find it tough trading as a result. As fuel, taxes and food go up and earnings don't, people will have less to spend. This is precipitating the decline that began in the nineties as hi-fi became stigmatised in a brave new world of glossy lifestyle magazines, style over substance as well as more other new things like computers, AV and games consoles to tempt us to part with any disposable income we may yet still have left.
The situation is no different in France where I spoke to the son of the owner of Amplitude in Tours. I was surprised to find even one hi-fi shop but aparently back in the late 80s there were 17 of them in a city roughly the size of Derby. Perhaps the decline in the number of dealers is both inevitable and serves as a form of natural justice.
However, there are one or two dealers out there that genuinely do add value to your purchases in making the whole of your system greater than the sum of the parts. As these few dealers continue to prosper - and they are, others may follow and build on their good practice within a few years. These things tend to go in cycles.
Sorry mate but I have to dissagree again :eyebrows:
The two system - direct or through retail are mutually incompatible unless the retail point just becomes an extension of direct sale like PC direct. The reatiler know perfectly well that unless they stop any direct sale from being successfull then they have lost the game. In the past they could do it and the cartel could kill any company stepping out of line and killing the slurp. Now, thank goodness in my opinion, they cannot stop it and it will progressively happen over the next 5 years and the recession we are going into, which in my opinion will be a big one will change buying habits for ever. Most is made in China now and the uk retailers and distributors are making over 70% of the profit in those sales, if you really saw the price you can buy in bulk from China you would be shocked. That manufacturing base (with India coming on line as well) will dominate mainstream products from cars downwards. Manufacture for us will be bespoke and *direct*, the future is the likes of Beresford and sorry to be rude but I cannot remember his name and I cannot look while writting this, the guy who makes Marcos amp, the new moderator, and myself. Bespoke supplies hobby and quality, different market to AVI and their like, they still think they can have the best of all worlds, sorry no way, if you are really good and create a market you will be copied and China and India will copy with no conscience. Bespoke and direct is the only future for this industry as it declines (in my opinion grows) into its core, its enthusiast, its real purpose, it should never have been a mainstream market.
You have a problem sir! everytime I make a generalisation or reply to someone elses post you take it as aimed at you. This is not a personal letter (and nor were the others) sent to *you* it is a reply to a forum post, which means it is addressed to the *whole* forum. So "patsy" referred to anyone willing to pay 10 grand for a speaker *in my opinion* and "up your ****" or child like behaviour wasn't even connected to you in any way or even as a reply to your remarks, it was a reply to another poster.
You are reacting and getting angry out of context. The whole world is not on your back there are others out there you know. Why do you have take it all so personally?
Hells teeth why can you not resist the temptation to always have the last word ?
Your clarification of the use of the term *patsy* does nothing to defend your assertion that it wasn't aimed at least partly at me. Until I mentioned my budget £10K hadn't come up in this thread. So as a person willing to spend £10K on a speaker I'm lumped in with your definition and I object to being called it either directly or in your veiled manner.
Once again I must correct you, I'm not angry nor do I think the whole world is on my back. I do think however you have issues with actually taking the time to consider a point of view contrary to your own.
It was clear to me in the context of the post I made that your remarks were at least partly aimed at me. I draw this conclusion from your judgement of me in previous posts and the fact that the reply you mention was in response to Steve's rebuke regarding your treatment of me. Your referral to me as "him", I have a name clearly displayed, indicates the level of disadain you apparently have for me.
To say your replies were not addressed personally to me is also bogus as they were all based around my anecdotal post.
It's pretty easy to see through the posts you make and I don't think you are doing yourself any favours with your line of "discussion".
Cheers
Nick
Nick,
I must congratulate you on the quality of your writing in recent posts, and also some of the excellent points you've made :)
When it comes to Richard, you must remember that when he's in 'rant mode' he's making general observations that aren't directed at any one person in particular, even though it may seem that way. He's just 'going off on one' about what annoys him.
It's best to read Richard's posts with that in mind and not take them too seriously.
Richard,
Would you like me to resurrect your old ranting thread and re-establish it as a sticky? I could then merge this thread into it so you've got one area in which to do your 'ranting'?
Or are you happy with things as they are? Just let me know what you'd prefer :smoking:
Marco.
Nick,
I must congratulate you on the quality of your writing in recent posts, and also some of the excellent points you've made :)
When it comes to Richard, you must remember that when he's in 'rant mode' he's making general observations that aren't directed at any one person in particular, even though it may seem that way. He's just 'going off on one' about what annoys him.
It's best to read Richard's posts with that in mind and not take them too seriously.
Marco.
Hi Marco
Thank you for the compliment and the advice.
I will make sure to have large quantities of salt nearby when reading Richard's rants :)
Cheers
Nick
Trust me, it's definitely recommended! :)
Marco.
Nick,
I must congratulate you on the quality of your writing in recent posts, and also some of the excellent points you've made :)
When it comes to Richard, you must remember that when he's in 'rant mode' he's making general observations that aren't directed at any one person in particular, even though it may seem that way. He's just 'going off on one' about what annoys him.
It's best to read Richard's posts with that in mind and not take them too seriously.
Richard,
Would you like me to resurrect your old ranting thread and re-establish it as a sticky? I could then merge this thread into it so you've got one area in which to do your 'ranting'?
Or are you happy with things as they are? Just let me know what you'd prefer :smoking:
Marco.
Yeah! ok sonny, why not! do your bit for papa :smoking:
Done :)
Don't say I'm not good to you!
Marco.
jandl100
25-04-2008, 08:22
I find the total disconnect between Richard in "Forum Rant Mode" and how he comes over when dealing with him as a seller of his excellent hifi goodies hugely amusing ! ;)
IME as a hifi seller he is the epitome of polite, understated, non-pushy helpfulness. As a Forum Ranter, :doh: errr .... well, you know the rest! :lol:
I don't doubt that, Jerry; hence why I said to Nick not to take him too seriously on here.
In 'rant mode' I view Richard as an amusing cartoon character, in the nicest possible sense, much like the picture in his avatar :lolsign:
How's the cold now - are your ears 'un-bunged' now? :)
Marco.
jandl100
25-04-2008, 08:47
How's the cold now - are your ears 'un-bunged' now? :)
Marco.
Yes, thanks. :) Cold gone, Ears syringed/washed-out (ye gods, the gunk that came out! :() - and I can hear again! It was a bad few days when I wasn't able to listen to music.
Nice one. Too much info, though! :bog:
Did you get round to reviewing Jim's baffles? I haven't checked yet.
Marco.
jandl100
25-04-2008, 09:28
Yes, it was awful having clogged up ears - like listening thru ADM9s :lol:. Oops, sorry. ;)
Yep, I've put some 2nd Impressions up in the diffraction thread. Still waiting for the next "Slow Boat From Texas" to arrive though, with Woolly Widgets to go specifically with my new Bowers Active speakers. Here they are ....
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF3814.jpg
These are real active hifi speakers - big muthas with 300W amps on board, not some lifestyle wonder for soap watchers!
OK, OK, I'll leave now. :wave:
Filterlab
25-04-2008, 09:33
...not some lifestyle wonder for soap watchers!
:lol:
Beautifully put Jerry. :)
Chris Frost
25-04-2008, 11:38
.... and VAT in *every* EU country is cheaper than ours - rip off UK again.Actualy that's not correct. Belgian VAT is 21%. I know this because I buy projection screens from a Belgian manufacturer.
:laser: :lol::popcorn::sofa:
Someone wrote suggesting that AOS was like a seventies time warp and the may have a point.
Ashley
Do you have a link to that quote?
Filterlab
25-04-2008, 15:06
...Someone wrote suggesting that AOS was like a seventies time warp and the may have a point.
Ashley
That's odd, I've just been approached by a hi-fi magazine wishing to publish my post on Mac audiophile output settings. Somehow I don't think that's seventies at all.
No offence Ashley, but you've lost it completely now. :mental:
IME as a hifi seller he is the epitome of polite, understated, non-pushy helpfulness. As a Forum Ranter, :doh: errr .... well, you know the rest! :lol:
The trouble is my only experience of him has been as the latter :lolsign:
The trouble is my only experience of him has been as the latter :lolsign:
Well sweety you are extremely unlikely to get any other experience so just enjoy the privilege!
That's odd, I've just been approached by a hi-fi magazine wishing to publish my post on Mac audiophile output settings. Somehow I don't think that's seventies at all.
No offence Ashley, but you've lost it completely now. :mental:
Which page on this thread is Ashley's quote?
Someone wrote suggesting that AOS was like a seventies time warp and the may have a point.
I can't find it.
Marco.
Ashley, this is Richard's ranting thread, not your ranting thread, so I suspect he'll be along to tell you ever so gently to stick your ADM9s up your a*se ;)
Would you like me to set-up your very own ranting thread? I'm nice that way :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
25-04-2008, 16:10
I'm fed up with stupid, ill-informed remarks being made about ADM9s. And then being blamed for a naff sales pitch when I correct the invariably wrong information. They are probably 10dB louder than most passive two-ways and without audibly distorting!
The comment that hi fi enthusiasts seem to be in a seventies time warp is one that is often observed by people contacting us. It is a generalisation aimed not specifically at AOS but several Forums. I agree with it up to a point because there has been so much progress in improving sound quality over the last twenty years, much if which has passed by the Hi Fi Industry without them noticing. I wasn't joking when I said that I could see the day when Active Studio Monitors are adapted to suit Computers and iPods and overtake hi end in sound quality for a fraction of the price. I know that quite are few are already eying up the market and seeing that it's there for the taking.
ash,
i think the voices are back mate, :mental:you may need to see the man to get rid of them again [know what i mean];):eyebrows::mental::lol:
The comment that hi fi enthusiasts seem to be in a seventies time warp is one that is often observed by people contacting us. It is a generalisation aimed not specifically at AOS but several Forums.
So why write,
"Someone wrote suggesting that AOS was like a seventies time warp and the may have a point."
As Karen Dunbar would say,
"Yer fu' a' absolooot shite"
And as jcbrum would say,
"No offence"
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
I'm fed up with stupid, ill-informed remarks being made about ADM9s. And then being blamed for a naff sales pitch when I correct the invariably wrong information. They are probably 10dB louder than most passive two-ways and without audibly distorting!
The comment that hi fi enthusiasts seem to be in a seventies time warp is one that is often observed by people contacting us. It is a generalisation aimed not specifically at AOS but several Forums. I agree with it up to a point because there has been so much progress in improving sound quality over the last twenty years, much if which has passed by the Hi Fi Industry without them noticing. I wasn't joking when I said that I could see the day when Active Studio Monitors are adapted to suit Computers and iPods and overtake hi end in sound quality for a fraction of the price. I know that quite are few are already eying up the market and seeing that it's there for the taking.
Ash I have tried to be polite :ner: but you really are the most ignorant, annoying, arrogant, egotistical twerp it has ever been my displeasure to have anything to do with, please don't let it happen again - so FECK OFF OUT OF MY THREAD.
anthonyTD
25-04-2008, 16:32
You're right and I apologise, although valves and vinyl are wonderfull!;)
Ash
nice quote ash, at last a sensible statement...:eyebrows:
Marco please remove this AVI ADM9 twaddle to where it belongs unless we end up getting another 10 pages of it as happened last time.
I'm on it, dude ;)
Marco.
Done :)
And Ashley now has his own little 'den', too :eyebrows:
Marco.
Done :)
And Ashley now has his own little 'den', too :eyebrows:
Marco.
Pah!.....
Surely you mean 'padded play pen' or similar? :lolsign:
THIS THREAD IS NOW AN OFFICIALLY FREE FROM - ASH - JC - AVI -ADM9 - ZONE. :smoking:
Anyone who breaks this rule including moderators and admins will feel my wrath :eyebrows:
Hmmm.... I don't think you have anything I would like to 'feel'! :eyebrows:
Sorry.... couldn't resist! :smoking:
Steve Toy
25-04-2008, 21:33
ADM9s are wonderfull
ADM9s are wonderfull
The incantation of the curse of disconnected loins to the great firewall in the sky has been uttered in your name. You will now find you are unable to access any of your favorite Porn websites. You had been warned :ner:
I'm more worried about his spelling of 'wonderful'!
Shaky keyboard, Steve? ;)
Marco.
So who has bought at low price direct from China via ebay?
So who has paid much higher price for product made in China and then supposedly modified in the UK?
So who has paid though the nose for product made in China but with a Brit name on it?
So who's the fool (can we have some more smilies I am bored with these)
Steve Toy
26-04-2008, 02:21
I'm more worried about his spelling of 'wonderful'!
Shaky keyboard, Steve? ;)
Marco.
The spelling was deliberate. I was copying from elsewhere here.
Steve Toy
26-04-2008, 02:27
So who has bought at low price direct from China via ebay?
So who has paid much higher price for product made in China and then supposedly modified in the UK?
So who has paid though the nose for product made in China but with a Brit name on it?
Me. I heard it at a dealer, Mr. C - a member and regular poster here. It was modified and CE approved by Pure sound - also member and will be further modified, all being well, by AnthonyTD - moderator here.
It will be a bespoke amp that may prove to be an investment, at least in the sense that I could enjoy it for years and sell it on for little, if any loss.
Me. I heard it at a dealer, Mr. C - a member and regular poster here. It was modified and CE approved by Pure sound - also member and will be further modified, all being well, by AnthonyTD - moderator here.
It will be a bespoke amp that may prove to be an investment, at least in the sense that I could enjoy it for years and sell it on for little, if any loss.
So why did it need that work and do you know what was done?
That company in China sells direct and would have cost you a fraction of the price!!
What do you think CE is in this case, just bullcrap, all that is needed is self certification. Anyway in my opinion no valve amp meets safety regs, it is the nature of the beast.
So something that would have cost you less that £200 probably costs you well over £1000. It is just another way of creating slurp!
AND if Anthony is such a geniis-arse then give him a blank canvas to work on why modify the modified :scratch:
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 08:20
So why did it need that work and do you know what was done?
That company in China sells direct and would have cost you a fraction of the price!!
What do you think CE is in this case, just bullcrap, all that is needed is self certification. Anyway in my opinion no valve amp meets safety regs, it is the nature of the beast.
So something that would have cost you less that £200 probably costs you well over £1000. It is just another way of creating slurp!
AND if Anthony is such a geniis-arse then give him a blank canvas to work on why modify the modified :scratch:
richard,
cool down, look at my web site when you get chance, you will see lots of equipment that i have made from scratch as you put it! the problem i have with a lot of potetial customers is that they want to get onto the valve train, but havent got the funds to purchase a bespoke piece of kit, so rather than turn them away, i try and recomend something that is well within their price range that has potential for further modifications when they can afford it!
;)
richard,
cool down, look at my web site when you get chance, you will see lots of equipment that i have made from scratch as you put it! the problem i have with a lot of potetial customers is that they want to get onto the valve train, but havent got the funds to purchase a bespoke piece of kit, so rather than turn them away, i try and recomend something that is well within their price range that has potential for further modifications when they can afford it!
;)
I am very cool, you are being sensitive, it was Steve I was refering too. Why get the modified modified, why not give you the Chinese amp in the first place. I also personally see no point in you manufacturing from scratch as the Chinese even with shipping costs to UK can well undercut you (and any British manufacture), and the basics of valve amps are just soooo bloody simple. The logic in valve bespoke would be for you to recommend a unit to buy from China direct and then weave what the others call your magic on it. Seems daft to me to buy a Chinese amp modify it and call it your own with your own name on like the one he bought, AND then even more daft pay a retailers margin on top.
Daftness put on daftness put on daftness, and your contribution is the least daft in the process.
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 08:49
I am very cool, you are being sensitive, it was Steve I was refering too. Why get the modified modified, why not give you the Chinese amp in the first place. I also personally see no point in you manufacturing from scratch as the Chinese even with shipping costs to UK can well undercut you (and any British manufacture), and the basics of valve amps are just soooo bloody simple. The logic in valve bespoke would be for you to recommend a unit to buy from China direct and then weave what the others call your magic on it. Seems daft to me to buy a Chinese amp modify it and call it your own with your own name on like the one he bought, AND then even more daft pay a retailers margin on top.
Daftness put on daftness put on daftness, and your contribution is the least daft in the process.
richard,
i agree, [with most of it anyway] i do try and get people to buy the things from the main suppliers, but on this ocasion, steve wanted that paticular amp, the choice was his, not mine!
good valve amp technology is no simpler than GOOD transistor/chip based circuitry, so if that dig was meant for me cut it out, or i will buy a pair of AD?9 AND TELL PEOPLE YOU SOLD THEM TO ME!;):eyebrows::confused::lol:
reichard,
i agree, [with m ost of it anyway] i do try and get people to buy the things from the main suppliers, but on this ocasion, steve wanted that paticular amp, the choice was his, not mine!
good valve amp technology is no simpler than convetional transistor/chip based circuitry, so if that dig was meant for me cut it out, or i will buy a pair of AD+9 AND TELL PEOPLE YOU SOLD THEM TO ME!;):eyebrows::confused::lol:
Just because you are on the team, doesn't mean you are safe from digs. Why do you think there were any, rather sensitive, huh! why!. My digs per usual are against distributors and retailers, who are on costs, add no value, slurping the trough. Do you add value, if yes then you are justified.
You know bloody well valve circuits a much more simple than solid state, on average it takes two or three times as many gain devices to do the same job with sand. I used glass amps as my guide for simplicity in my sand circuits. Other problems though IMO which is why I use sand, but I am fine with what you do.
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 09:26
Just because you are on the team, doesn't mean you are safe from digs. Why do you think there were any, rather sensitive, huh! why!. My digs per usual are against distributors and retailers, who are on costs, add no value, slurping the trough. Do you add value, if yes then you are justified.
You know bloody well valve circuits a much more simple than solid state, on average it takes two or three times as many gain devices to do the same job with sand. I used glass amps as my guide for simplicity in my sand circuits. Other problems though IMO which is why I use sand, but I am fine with what you do.
richard,
as stated,
conventional valve circuitry is imho no more or less complicated than sand circuitry, but i dont usualy do conventional in my own designs, and when i have worked out how to put a picture up on here i will show you a board of one of my creations!;)
Filterlab
26-04-2008, 10:10
ADM9s are wonderfull
LOL! Nice post my friend. ;)
Ian Walker
26-04-2008, 10:16
richard,
as stated,
when i have worked out how to put a picture up on here i will show you a board of one of my creations!;)
Tell you what mate i'll show you how to put up a piccy if you show me how to build a valve amp:lol:.
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 10:27
Tell you what mate i'll show you how to put up a piccy if you show me how to build a valve amp:lol:.
its a deal!
i have a few minutes spare!;)
i can trim your wig and give you a 'Billy special', too, if you want:lol:
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 10:47
its a deal!
i have a few minutes spare!;)
i can trim your wig and give you a 'Billy special', too, if you want:lol:
hey,
who's messing with my posts, i dont have a few minuites!;):eyebrows::confused::lol:
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 11:13
ADM9s are wonderfull
well, fancy that,he,s finaly out of the closet:lol::dance:
Yes he uses them in his toilet system.
Marco.
SolidState
26-04-2008, 11:46
If I remember correctly they were hooked up to a spectral pre and densen power amp in the toilet. Come on guys now be real, where else would you expect ADM9's, spectral and densen to work optimally other than a toilet.
Filterlab
26-04-2008, 11:52
Yes he uses them in his toilet system.
Marco.
Do they sound shit?
:lol:
I think it's because the ADM9s sound a bit "farty".
Marco.
Ian Walker
26-04-2008, 12:33
i can trim your wig and give you a 'Billy special', too, if you want.
Just in case your wonderin guys here's a few Anthony "BILLY'D" some years ago:)
anthonyTD
26-04-2008, 16:26
i can trim your wig and give you a 'Billy special', too, if you want.
Just in case your wonderin guys here's a few Anthony "BILLY'D" some years ago:)
dont know what you mean,
their fine examples, of the welsh valley's number 1 hair stylist [nowadays he's know for his number ones];):eyebrows::lol::lol:
richard,
as stated,
conventional valve circuitry is imho no more or less complicated than sand circuitry, but i dont usualy do conventional in my own designs, and when i have worked out how to put a picture up on here i will show you a board of one of my creations!;)
We will have to agree to differ on this one.
I disapear to RHS Wisley for the day entertaining the Wif and what do I find when I get back nothing but more AVI and ADM9 on the thread and this time from the boosses, what the !
Anyway come on - who has bought direct from China or HK or Taiwan on ebay. Was it a problem or did you get a bargain, don't you find it a bit strange that they can make a profit at those prices?
Were any of you tempted but chickened out due to the valve (mini) cartel telling you not to touch it on the other forums, so many scare stories. Well who is running scared - huh!
I disapear to RHS Wisley for the day entertaining the Wif and what do I find when I get back nothing but more AVI and ADM9 on the thread and this time from the boosses, what the !
S'ok, Daddy. The bad men have been banned, and permanently!!
Anyway come on - who has bought direct from China or HK or Taiwan on ebay?
Me! And I couldn't be happier with my (modified) Chinese valve amp. Mind you, by the time I've finished it will be a South Wales one... :eyebrows:
What will we call it? How about the 'Boyo Acoustics Reference AM-2008'? :lol:
Marco.
P.S Anthony, where's that picture you were going to post for Richard to see? Has Rob not got off his arse yet? ;)
S'ok, Daddy. The bad men have been banned, and permanently!!
Me! And I couldn't be happier with my (modified) Chinese valve amp. Mind you, by the time I've finished it will be a South Wales one... :eyebrows:
What will we call it? How about the 'Boyo Acoustics Reference AM-2008'? :lol:
Marco.
P.S Anthony, where's that picture you were going to post for Richard to see? Has Rob not got off his arse yet? ;)
So what is the point of paying ridiculous prices for UK - EU - US ones?
So where are the weaknesses in Chinese bottle amps, I here the glass is OK but can be bettered and that the weak link is the transformers. I presume the output one as the mains one is quite difficult to bugger up.
So if Anthony does this what is the next step, is it sensible for Anthony to contact the manufacturer of his favorite Chinese amp and buy them in himself modify and put a name on it, 'cos basically that is what Puresound is.
Is this the future for the bottle market?
Reechard,
So what is the point of paying ridiculous prices for UK - EU - US ones?
None, I guess, unless they're demonstrably better by a significant margin to warrant the extra cost.
So where are the weaknesses in Chinese bottle amps, I here the glass is OK but can be bettered and that the weak link is the transformers. I presume the output one as the mains one is quite difficult to bugger up.
Anthony's probably better answering that one, but my experience so far has been that the valves are no more than of average quality, certainly compared to new stock Russian ones like cryo'd Svetlanas, and NOS ones of any origin are in a totally different league.
The large amount of circuit boards inside them is a sonic no-no, as 'proper' valve amps are wired point-to-point, capacitors and bridge rectifiers are generally of poor quality, output transformers could be bettered, and mains transformers are not suitable for UK voltage, certainly in the case of the Yaqin. You do however get a nice high quality chassis!
What must be remembered, though, is that the Yaqin, for example, is available to buy on Ebay for just over £300 DELIVERED to the UK, which is phenomenal value for money. What valve amplifier could you buy in the UK, EU or US for £300? Answer: none!
And even unmodified, replete with crap parts mentioned, they sound remarkably good. Modify them, as I've had done, and will continue to do, and you've got something very special on your hands, particularly when used as a power amp with a high quality valve preamp (they come as an integrated as standard).
So if Anthony does this what is the next step, is it sensible for Anthony to contact the manufacturer of his favorite Chinese amp and buy them in himself modify and put a name on it, 'cos basically that is what Puresound is.
I'll let Guy speak for himself, but I don't think that would be Anthony's cup of tea, no matter how profitable it was. I could be wrong, though! No doubt Anthony will be along to add his thoughts in due course...
Marco.
Reechard,
None, I guess, unless they're demonstrably better by a significant margin to warrant the extra cost.
Anthony's probably better answering that one, but my experience so far has been that the valves are no more than of average quality, certainly compared to new stock Russian ones like cryo'd Svetlanas, and NOS ones of any origin are in a totally different league.
The large amount of circuit boards inside them is a sonic no-no, as 'proper' valve amps are wired point-to-point, capacitors and bridge rectifiers are generally of poor quality, output transformers could be bettered, and mains transformers are not suitable for UK voltage, certainly in the case of the Yaqin. You do however get a nice high quality chassis!
What must be remembered, though, is that the Yaqin, for example, is available to buy on Ebay for just over £300 DELIVERED to the UK, which is phenomenal value for money. What valve amplifier could you buy in the UK, EU or US for £300? Answer: none!
And even unmodified, replete with crap parts mentioned, they sound remarkably good. Modify them, as I've had done, and will continue to do, and you've got something very special on your hands, particularly when used as a power amp with a high quality valve preamp (they come as an integrated as standard).
I'll let Guy speak for himself, but I don't think that would be Anthony's cup of tea, no matter how profitable it was. I could be wrong, though! No doubt Anthony will be along to add his thoughts in due course...
Marco.
I built a point to point wired sand amp once, a complete pain in the arse and completely impossible in a production senario. Did it sound better, well marginally but nothing to make up for the ag. Anyway it made me look at what it was in PCB material and manufacture that caused this loss of quality and the changes I made took the process even further than hard wired. BUT that work probably wouldn't help bottle circuit PCBs. High voltage low current field propogates completely differently to low voltage high current field.
jimdgoulding
27-04-2008, 02:31
Ricardo- Como esta? Is the term "sand amp" commonly used in the Queen's english? I believe it was Harvey Rosenberg who coined that term. Would that be right? Cheers.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 09:33
The Pure Sound A30 is based on a valve amp available from China, however I order them configured for Class A operation which involved re-speccing the mains and output transformers, changing the bias applied to the output stage, changing the feedback applied and having certain passive components fitted. When they arrive here I qc check each one, carry out a further minor modification and then supply them via retailers. I could have chosen to sell directly via ebay or a website but I'm old fashioned in the sense that I think that there is a place for a competent dealer giving a proper demonstration. I see too many people who buy things 'blind' and without advice ending up with very poor sounding hotchpotches of components that frequently don't suit each other. Many people do need advice & guidance in choosing equipment and a good dealer can provide that.
Incidentally the transformers fitted to the A30 are of a very good quality and give a better performance than any we were buying in the UK 15 years ago when I worked for another valve amplifier manufacturer. The A30 is better specified, better built, better sounding and cheaper than the equivalent amplifier we were making & selling in the UK back in the early 90's. I'd say that was progress. (at least from the consumers viewpoint)
The Phono stage (pictured in the avatar) is entirely my design and made in the same factory. Other products will be coming via the same means later this year.
I feel these items offer decent material value for money, can be heard around the country at reputable dealers and most importantly reflect the way I like music to be reproduced. I'd be the first to acknowledge that what I like may not be liked by everyone else, but it would be a dull old world if we all shared exactly the same tastes.
Sorry to barge in on your thread Richard. I'll leave it alone now.
The Pure Sound A30 is based on a valve amp available from China, however I order them configured for Class A operation which involved re-speccing the mains and output transformers, changing the bias applied to the output stage, changing the feedback applied and having certain passive components fitted. When they arrive here I qc check each one, carry out a further minor modification and then supply them via retailers. I could have chosen to sell directly via ebay or a website but I'm old fashioned in the sense that I think that there is a place for a competent dealer giving a proper demonstration. I see too many people who buy things 'blind' and without advice ending up with very poor sounding hotchpotches of components that frequently don't suit each other. Many people do need advice & guidance in choosing equipment and a good dealer can provide that.
Incidentally the transformers fitted to the A30 are of a very good quality and give a better performance than any we were buying in the UK 15 years ago when I worked for another valve amplifier manufacturer. The A30 is better specified, better built, better sounding and cheaper than the equivalent amplifier we were making & selling in the UK back in the early 90's. I'd say that was progress. (at least from the consumers viewpoint)
The Phono stage (pictured in the avatar) is entirely my design and made in the same factory. Other products will be coming via the same means later this year.
I feel these items offer decent material value for money, can be heard around the country at reputable dealers and most importantly reflect the way I like music to be reproduced. I'd be the first to acknowledge that what I like may not be liked by everyone else, but it would be a dull old world if we all shared exactly the same tastes.
Sorry to barge in on your thread Richard. I'll leave it alone now.
Why? I mentioned Puresound so it became your business. This post of yours is largely trumpet blowing and I dissagree with lots of it, but it does put the case for this method of creating and selling product. Completely dissagree about retailers contributing they add nothing for the customer they add *for you*. Without them you would have had difficulty getting anyone to buy as you started on the lee side of the cusp of this process. Are you seriously telling me you wouldn't make your customers happier by charging them 50% of the present retail price! really it is a no brainer, plus the many methods and processes I have talked about in this thread and others for making up for the miniscule amount of benefit (apart from to their pockets) that retailers provide which involve the expansion of community. Retailers are not interested in choice and service, they are interested in profit for minimum choice and service, and basically they just want you to buy what they tell you - all ego based, which is why so many of them develop the *attitude* they are largely famous for. They are less and less likely to get away with it now, which is largely part of the industry changes I am observing and voicing.
So if Anthony does the same thing and goes direct and promotes via forums as he is already then he has a serious advantage. In your case the base amp you work from is less than a third of the price of yours direct from China, what is to stop others doing the same thing. The process of changing and improving is available, in the open, and published on the DIY forums.
This is a valve marketing possibility you have that doesn't apply to transistor amps, much harder to tweak as far more complicated (nod to Anthony) and difficult to access and less cost effective process. Much easier a la MF and others to get the manufacture done there to your specs and design.
Ricardo- Como esta? Is the term "sand amp" commonly used in the Queen's english? I believe it was Harvey Rosenberg who coined that term. Would that be right? Cheers.
It is term I have used for over forty years since the intro of silicon devices, sand amps v glass or bottle amps (should really be vacuum amps). Sand and glass made from the same sand - Silicon. Though silicon is just one components of most sand.
So I really don't remember if I invented the term or not :confused::smoking:
pure sound
27-04-2008, 10:28
Suppose an individual wants to buy a new turntable. Suppose this person isn't confident enough to fit an arm or cartridge to it. But they want something good to make the most of an existing record collection. Are you suggesting they buy such a thing over the internet? A dealer can help them choose an appropriate arm and cartridge and set it up/install it for them. Suppose they want to buy some large speakers to go with it. We all know that Tannoys sound different to Pro-acs or ATCs, Spendors, ARTS whatever. Are you suggesting that people just choose based on a picture they see on a website? Maybe you are. Personally, I think it'd be a very poor way to choose a system but each to their own. While there are still dealers with the facility to play these options to people then they should be used. I wouldn't expect any such dealer to hold these items as demonstration stock and pay for the building in which they are kept out of the kindness of their hearts. I wouldn't expect them to give their time for nothing either.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion about this but I don't think speakers (in particular) are something that should be chosen from a picture. What's your alternative? Is it better to have to arrange to borrow 2 or 3 large sets of speakers to try at home (incurring all the risks of shipping via couriers) or to be able to go somewhere, hear them and perhaps borrow the preferred pair for a home trial. I know which method I (and most people) would still choose. However, it would seem that in your 'brave new world' such a facility will no longer exist. I suppose the person should just slap some drivers into a box until they find a combination that sounds nice. (I seem to recall that you suggested this as an approach to speaker design elsewhere on this forum!) Sadly, in the real world, most people have no inclination to DIY their hifi, just as most people have no inclination to DIY their cars, cookers or washing machines. There is a place for dealers. They can offer a useful service. I'd agree that many don't but there are some that still do.
Chris Frost
27-04-2008, 10:38
Well said :gig:
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 10:47
Richard,
When I read your posts I like to think you are playing Devil's Advocate but the one above confirms to me that you are just bitter and twisted. With your rather volatile temperament, it would seem that you have managed in your time to fall out with a lot of dealers/distributors to the extent that direct selling is pretty much your only option. Thus your (jaundiced) views amount to nothing more than soup grapes.
I know exactly how much the A30 would have cost me without the dealer margin but I am very reluctant to buy anything that I cannot listen to first. I received excellent service from Mr. C who travelled the 50 miles from his place to demonstrate the product in my home after I had already spent a few hours down there in the Malvern Hills a couple of weeks earlier. I needed to be sure that it could drive my speakers in my room and work with my system.
I love this amp in stock form as does my wife who told me only yesterday that now CDs she buys no longer go straight to the car, they get played in the home system first. She is not a hi-fi person but in her own words the system is now "involving and enjoyable to listen to." Her initial reaction on setting eyes upon the amp was that it was rather ugly. I'm thus pleased to confirm that she really doesn't judge things solely on appearances...
The mods Anthony will be performing on it in just over a week, all being well, will be fine tuning to add refinement without compromising musicality. The amp will then also become a unique and bespoke item.
With really good hi-fi the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts unless you've got agendas/axes to grind.
Suppose an individual wants to buy a new turntable. Supopose this person isn't confident enough to fit an arm or cartridge to it. But they want something good to make the most of an existing record collection. Are you suggesting they buy such a thing over the internet? A dealer can help them choose an appropriate arm and cartridge and set it up/install it for them. Suppose they want to buy some large speakers to go with it. We all know that Tannoys sound different to Pro-acs or ATCs, Spendors, ARTS whatever. Are you suggesting that people just choose based on a picture they see on a website? Maybe you are. Personally, I think it'd be a very poor way to choose a system but each to their own. While there are still dealers with the facility to play these options to people then they should be used. I wouldn't expect any such dealer to hold these items as demonstration stock and pay for the building in which they are kept out of the kindness of their hearts. I wouldn't expect them to give their time for nothing either.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion about this but I don't think speakers (in particular) are something that should be chosen from a picture. What's your alternative? Is it better to have to arrange to borrow 2 or 3 large sets of speakers to try at home (incurring all the risks of shipping via couriers) or to be able to go somewhere, hear them and perhaps borrow the preferred pair for a home trial. I know which method I (and most people) would still choose. However, it would seem that in your 'brave new world' such a facility will no longer exist. I suppose the person should just slap some drivers into a box until they find a combination that sounds nice. (I seem to recall that you suggested this as an approach to speaker design elsewhere on this forum!) Sadly, in the real world, most people have no inclination to DIY their hifi, just as most people have no inclination to DIY their cars, cookers or washing machines. There is a place for dealers. They can offer a useful service. I'd agree that many don't but there are some that still do.
You are supplying an enthusiast market, not a mainstream market, are you telling me that the members here are incapable of making choices and decisions without a retailer telling them what to buy. That is what it boils down to - a retailer can set up a dem to sell what he wants.
You obviously haven't followed the points of my argument over many many posts. This is an enthusiasts market, we now have community that wasn't there in the past so they are now not isolated and just potential victims of the ego and greed that retailers are famous for, and the bullshite of the magazines and reviewers. You lived through the latter period I am talking about and I *know* that you know what I am talking about even though it doesn't suit you to admit it here.
Community can provide all the supposed benefits you put on retailers, which are only in theory and in reality are largely sadly missing. These are the changes I am espousing and have been for a long time and are here in the archive for all to read. Base line we either wake up as manufacturers or on cost tweekers and smell the coffee or we go the way of the dinosaur / retailers.
I see your method as a sub strata in the process that only applies to the conditions and posibilities available now. The Chinese love people like you, they will just copy and undercut you until they kill you. So you have to be ahead of the game to survive. Rely on others for your kippers and they will dry up the supply of your herrings :scratch: :eyebrows:
Richard,
When I read your posts I like to think you are playing Devil's Advocate but the one above confirms to me that you are just bitter and twisted. With your rather volatile temperament, it would seem that you have managed in your time to fall out with a lot of dealers/distributors to the extent that direct selling is pretty much your only option. Thus your (jaundiced) views amount to nothing more than soup grapes.
I know exactly how much the A30 would have cost me without the dealer margin but I am very reluctant to buy anything that I cannot listen to first. I received excellent service from Mr. C who travelled the 50 miles from his place to demonstrate the product in my home after I had already spent a few hours down there in theMlvern Hills a couple of weeks earlier. I needed to be sure that it could drive my speakers in my room and work with my system.
I love this amp in stock form as does my wife who told me only yesterday that now CDs she buys no longer go straight to the car, they get played in the home system first. She is not a hi-fi person but in her own words the system is now "involving and enjoyable to listen to." Her initial reaction on setting eyes upon the amp was that it was rather ugly. I'm thus pleased to confirm that she really doesn't judge things solely on appearances...
The mods Anthony will be performing on it in just over a week, all being well, will be fine tuning to add refinement without compromising musicality. The amp will then also become a unique and bespoke item.
With really good hi-fi the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts unless you've got agendas/axes to grind.
Human nature - no person who has been largely conned or ripped off likes to admit it - IMO.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 11:05
You may be supplying an enthusiast market. I'm not. I don't mind who buys the products I'm selling. They should be something anyone can buy & use.
You actually dodged the question. How should 'normal' people choose & buy large loudspeakers? By going to bake-offs? Are you serious? Have you been to any? I have. They are fun days out but hardly conducive to good decision making. Ditto HiFi shows. You might become more aware of the available options but they aren't that helpful in forming valid opinions.
With regards to your last paragraph, ...whatever. It's starting to sound like the ramblings of Eric Cantona. (When the seagulls follow the trawler... etc)
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 11:07
Richard, as I said, b&t. There is no way I'd feel comfortable buying hi-fi equipment without at least having the facility to go to really good dealers who genuinely add value to your purchases. Bake-offs are for the privileged few who have been able to network on forums for a few years. I'm one of those few now but I guess at most we could account for around 2 percent of the diminishing hi-fi market.
Direct selling is for those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing or for seasoned enthusiasts who definitely know what they are doing, are in the bake-off loop and who may or may not be into dabbling with DIY. The latter are a tiny minority that could not possibly sustain the industry.
The approach I take has some elements of this mindset else I wouldn't have got into valves in the first place. I guess I'm in the half-way house between the two extremes being one given dealer's disciple and a go-it-alone or networking DIYer. I'd like to think that my own system is unique and yet still able to deliver the musical goods without costing a fortune.
You may be supplying an enthusiast market. I'm not. I don't mind who buys the products I'm selling. They should be something anyone can buy & use.
You actually dodged the question. How should 'normal' people buy & choose large loudspeakers? By going to bake-offs? Are you serious? Have you been to any? I have. They are fun days out but hardly conducive to good decision making. Ditto HiFi shows. You might become more aware of the available options but they aren't that helpful in forming valid opinions.
With regards to your last paragraph, ...whatever. It's starting to sound like the ramblings of Eric Cantona. (When the seagulls follow the trawler... etc)
Once again - we are on the cusp but now just over it, the process has not worked through yet. BUT community is changing via the web, look how much change in the last couple of years. Then this conversation would not have been possible, so what is likely possible in a couple of years. This is like going back to the very old days where advice was asked of mates in the pub or conversations with neighbours and friends. Community died in the 70's and is now coming back via the web, it will encompass all things, and the only losers will be the slurpers who rely on information staying secret and only for insiders - the changes are not all here but they are coming.
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 11:14
Sorry to barge in on your thread Richard. I'll leave it alone now.
Guy,
Carry on barging. This thread needs balance.
Guy,
Carry on barging. This thread needs balance.
Balance in this case is relative, it largely depends on how intelligent and grown up you are. (Post, like all my posts, to you and the forum but not directed *at* you, just in case you decide to become hot).
I have never decided I am omnipotent, if I thought that I would become a retailer of reviewer. I am participation in a debate (hopefully).
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 11:32
Richard,
Unlike a couple of uindividuals, your posting rights here are pretty safe (as long as you don't become threatening/abusive) because you at least stay within your designated thread.
This forum does however exist to support the industry and excellence in the reproduction of recorded music. Dealers, even if only a few really good ones remain, are an essential part of that process for most if not all of us.
Those dealers who are put off by Richard's ramblings, don't be. His views can generate stimulating debate that enables you to put your valid points across.
Be assured also that his views are not a reflection of those of the Art of Sound.
anthonyTD
27-04-2008, 11:51
hi folks,
will get to replying later, off out to have my sunday dinner;)
richard, il deal with you later:lol:
anthony...
Ian Walker
27-04-2008, 12:15
off out to have my sunday dinner
Tell em the truth Anthony your off out to SHOOT it arent you:lol:
Ali Tait
27-04-2008, 12:37
In reply to Richard's earlier question,I bought a valve amp direct from China.I think it's an excellent piece of kit,and many who heard it at the recent Owstfest agreed.It's a Mr Liang 845,and cost me in total 450 quid(including being hit for duty).Now where else can you get a very good 845 SE amp for 450 quid?
Ok,this particular amp is a bit different from the usual Chinese fare,in that the bloke who makes them is a successful businessman over there(not in the hifi sphere),who just happened to have been a hifi nut for many years,and decided to start his own small workshop making his own amps.He has I think about six staff there,and even winds his own transformers in-house,so they are not the usual cheaply made mass produced tx's commonly found in amps of this type.The weight alone tells you something about the quality of the iron-45kg.I've had the thing to bits,and believe me there is nothing cheap about the construction,and the quality of the pcb's is as good as any I've ever seen,they really are superb.I can't see any boutique components,but I suspect they are just unbranded items from the same factories.Good standard quality stuff in any case as this thing sounds great! It's also run quite happily on UK mains for almost a year now. As Nick said at the recent Owstfest,"It's not just a cheap amp that sounds good,it's a good amp period.The cheap price is just a bonus"
I agree about the relatively poor Chinese valves,although sounding very good straight out of the box,useful improvements were made by substituting NOS variants on the front end.The chinese 845's are pretty good though,and I'm not paying the silly prices for NOS ones!(a good pair would be more than twice the cost of the amp!) It comes with the basic mica-topped types,but I'm awaiting some of the 845b's which I've heard, and are much better than the basic ones.I've also ordered some decent coupling caps and cathode resistors,which I'm hoping will raise the performance even further.
Regards,Ali
pure sound
27-04-2008, 12:47
To be fair the Chinese 845's seem quite robust. I have some. I'm not convinced by their EL34's 6550's KT88's or 2A3's though particularly not in Class A use. The Russian ones still seem much stronger.
But this is off topic.
I'm waiting for Richard to explain how people 'should' audition & buy large loudspeakers.
Chris Frost
27-04-2008, 12:59
BUT community is changing via the web, look how much change in the last couple of years. Then this conversation would not have been possible, so what is likely possible in a couple of years. This is like going back to the very old days where advice was asked of mates in the pub or conversations with neighbours and friends. Community died in the 70's and is now coming back via the web, it will encompass all things, and the only losers will be the slurpers who rely on information staying secret and only for insiders - the changes are not all here but they are coming.
There are two fatal flaws in this argument:
Who says that your "knowledgable" mate actually knows what he's talking about...
and when you do find out he was talking bollocks will he be the one that will refund the money on the lemon you bought? Yeah, right.
:lol:
Isn't it self evident from many of the threads that free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it?; and also that one persons idea of "good sound" is definitely not another's. My neighbours bought a new Hi-Fi last Christmas. They spent the extra £30 and got the good one.............for £130. :doh:
In reply to Richard's earlier question,I bought a valve amp direct from China.I think it's an excellent piece of kit,and many who heard it at the recent Owstfest agreed.It's a Mr Liang 845,and cost me in total 450 quid(including being hit for duty).Now where else can you get a very good 845 SE amp for 450 quid?
Ok,this particular amp is a bit different from the usual Chinese fare,in that the bloke who makes them is a successful businessman over there(not in the hifi sphere),who just happened to have been a hifi nut for many years,and decided to start his own small workshop making his own amps.He has I think about six staff there,and even winds his own transformers in-house,so they are not the usual cheaply made mass produced tx's commonly found in amps of this type.The weight alone tells you something about the quality of the iron-45kg.I've had the thing to bits,and believe me there is nothing cheap about the construction,and the quality of the pcb's is as good as any I've ever seen,they really are superb.I can't see any boutique components,but I suspect they are just unbranded items from the same factories.Good standard quality stuff in any case as this thing sounds great! It's also run quite happily on UK mains for almost a year now. As Nick said at the recent Owstfest,"It's not just a cheap amp that sounds good,it's a good amp period.The cheap price is just a bonus"
I agree about the relatively poor Chinese valves,although sounding very good straight out of the box,useful improvements were made by substituting NOS variants on the front end.The chinese 845's are pretty good though,and I'm not paying the silly prices for NOS ones!(a good pair would be more than twice the cost of the amp!) It comes with the basic mica-topped types,but I'm awaiting some of the 845b's which I've heard, and are much better than the basic ones.I've also ordered some decent coupling caps and cathode resistors,which I'm hoping will raise the performance even further.
Regards,Ali
Good stuff!
Did you need a retailer - no.
Did you need a magazine or reveiwer - no.
Did you need any marketing men - no.
So the result is you got a bargain 'cos none of them took your money for no purpose - simple no brainer.
Not everyone wants to skin their cat the same way, Richard :smoking:
Marco.
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 13:41
Not everyone wants to skin their cat the same way, Richard
Quite. This forum embraces the differing methods of relieving cats of their skins. There is no One True Way, especially not one steeped in such bitter and twistedness.
Ali Tait
27-04-2008, 13:48
Well to be honest,it was a bit of a risk as I've heard some dire Chinese amps.The thing that decided me on this amp was the weight,to me it meant there was a decent amount of iron in there.I won the auction itself for 155 quid though,so to my way of thinking,if I didn't like the amp,I had a nice chassis to build something decent in.I don't think you could buy a decent chassis in stainless steel with a 10mm ali front plate for anywhere near that price here.That it sounded as good as it does was a happy suprise.The only other amp I have heard that gives you as much bang for the buck is the WAD(now WD) KEL84,unless of course you are happy scratch-building your own.
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 13:51
Ali, you were a lucky, lucky man who wasn't taking any financial risk. This is not really what Richard advocates. He expects us to save 40% on a few grand and risk buying a dog.
And the Yaqin, too, Ali baby. You seemed mildly impressed that evening at Owston ;)
And when you visit chez-moi, there's plenty more to come...
Marco.
P.S You have a PM :smoking:
Good stuff!
Did you need a retailer - no.
Did you need a magazine or reveiwer - no.
Did you need any marketing men - no.
So the result is you got a bargain 'cos none of them took your money for no purpose - simple no brainer.
Did he take a chance that he might end up with a £450 paperweight with no recourse ? - Yes
Of course that's a personal gamble which we can all choose to do or not.
Indeed.
I was lucky with the Yaqin, though, because I got to hear it in my system before buying it, as Ian Walker had already bought one himself. Therefore there was no real risk.
I can say categorically that I would not have ordered one had I not heard Ian's first!
One thing this shows is the superb quality of products, particularly valve amps, coming out of China now at frankly ridiculous prices - witness the Mr Liang, Yaqin, and Puresound (in its original form).
UK manufacturers - be afraid, be very afraid...
Marco.
Ali, you were a lucky, lucky man who wasn't taking any financial risk. This is not really what Richard advocates. He expects us to save 40% on a few grand and risk buying a dog.
Your being bloody daft, there is no risk, send it back if don't like it. If Chinese the price you got it for just put it up at ebay and sell it on.
There are large numbers of hi-fi enthusiasts now who refuse to buy new, ebay and forum classifieds has provided them with bargains to try and if no like sell on, it is fun and you get to hear lots of kit and compare it. Jerry is the arch proponent of this, but many many more do it. Do they need retailers - no. Do they need magazines and reveiwers - no. Do they need marketing men - no. Do they need the community at ebay and the forums - yes.
This is now an established market of a size approaching or exceeding the new shop built market, just look at ebay. It is just another step for new product to follow the same course, and the pioneers are now doing it, it has started with cable and is moving on and the Chinese valve amps are one element of this.
You keep using ad hominem and personally insulting me, I presume you think and probably will get away with it because you are admin so not subject to your own rules. There is nothing bitter and twisted in my advice, posts or suggestions, it is basically a no brainer, that doesn't appeal to people with obviously less than no brains to see it.
This is the future - smell the coffee.
Might I be so bold to suggest that you are just a weeny teensy weency bit obsessed with 'dissing' dealers, though, Richard? You might not realise it but it's coming through ever so slightly in your posts ;)
Marco.
Indeed.
I was lucky with the Yaqin, though, because I got to hear it in my system before buying it, as Ian Walker had already bought one himself. Therefore there was no real risk.
I can say categorically that I would not have ordered one had I not heard Ian's first!
One thing this shows is the superb quality of products, particularly valve amps, coming out of China now at frankly ridiculous prices - witness the Mr Liang, Yaqin, and Puresound (in its original form).
UK manufacturers - be afraid, be very afraid...
Marco.
And this also shows the benefit of community as you got to hear it, then people get to hear yours. It is the first who took the risk, the rest is about friendship and community, not panicking agressive slurpers as you are seeing here with the retailers and marketers posting to try and defend the indefensible.
Might I be so bold to suggest that you are just a weeny teensy weency bit obsessed with 'dissing' dealers, though, Richard? It's coming through ever so slightly in your posts ;)
Marco.
Not in the slightest they are but one of my rants, but they and their apologists keep arguing with me so I keep replying. There have been far more of my posts here anti marketing men, are you telling me I am also obsessed with Ash :lolsign:
Another of my rants is forum list owners, does that mean I am obsessed with you sweety :mental:
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 14:42
Oh dear, someone else telling me about the brave new world we are moving into. :rolleyes:
Jerry is the arch proponent of this, but many many more do it
Ah yes, these unrepentant box-swappers! Other than the fun of chasing bargains, that to be fair they can and usually sell on at no loss, I do sometimes wonder why they do it.
Fun as it may be, I think you are very lucky indeed if you hit musical nirvana by this method. Also, it wouldn't bode well for the future of the industry if everyone did this.
You keep using ad hominem and personally insulting me, I presume you think and probably will get away with it because you are admin so not subject to your own rules. There is nothing bitter and twisted in my advice, posts or suggestions, it is basically a no brainer, that doesn't appeal to people with obviously less than no brains to see it.
I'm not insulting you by stating that you may have sour grapes and be b&t, but you are quite correct in that as admin I can be a little more candid in expressing my viewpoint but then I'm not prone to losing my temper or insinuating stupidity.
Why push your luck?
Yes, but in my instance it was just sheer luck that I got to hear the Yaqin first before buying it. It was almost like fate...
I take your point about bake-offs, Richard, but with respect to others, attending such events other than for the social aspect (and I'm all for that, incidentally) would be largely pointless for me. As an exercise in which to judge equipment the benefit is moot because of the effects of an unfamiliar room and unfamiliar system.
The *only* way I ever make conclusive judgements on equipment and proceed to purchase is when I have heard said equipment at my leisure in the comfort of my home with my own music. I simply would not buy hi-fi equipment or ancillaries new, or even second-hand (unless I'd thoroughly researched the item(s) in question) under any other circumstances.
Marco.
Oh dear, someone else telling me about the brave new world we are moving into. :rolleyes:
Ah yeshese unrepentant box-swappers! Other than the fun of chasing bargains, that to be fair they can and usually sell on at no loss, I do sometimes wonder why they do it.
Fun as it may be, I think you are very lucky indeed if you hit musical nirvana by this method. Also, it wouldn't bode well for the future of the industry if everyone did this.
I'm not insulting you by stating that you may have sour grapes and be b&t, but you are quite correct in that as admin I can be a little more candid in expressing my viewpoint but then I'm not prone to losing my temper.
Nonsense you are sitting there like a red faced little devil with steam coming out of you ears, it is written all over your posts.
And you are far more likely to find musical nirvana this way than relying on retailers and magazines and reviewers. But human nature always says the grass may be greener on the other side of the hill, so the fun continues.
Bode well for the industry, well if in your opinion the industry is the slurpers then no it doesn't thank goodness. If you mean the guys that design and make and the guys that use, then hell yes. The industry is coming home.
Not in the slightest they are but one of my rants...
Ok. Can we please pretty please with bells on have a different rant now, sweety?
You wouldn't want anyone to think you were some bitter twisted old man now, would you? :ner:
Clue: there's a subliminal message somewhere in there! ;)
Marco.
Another of my rants is forum list owners, does that mean I am obsessed with you sweety :mental:
Let's hear what you've got to say, then!
I will say in advance though that this is not me giving you carte-blanche to slag off admin from every forum you've been banned from! ;)
Try to view things from a lateral perspective.
Marco.
Ok. Can we please pretty please with bells on have a different rant now, sweety?
You wouldn't want anyone to think you were some bitter twisted old man now, would you? :ner:
Clue: there's a subliminal message somewhere in there! ;)
Marco.
This post is just more likely to keep me on retailers.
And to keep the post numbers down I will reply to your next post as well. I tried to show with proof what went on at forums and my post was censored. The remains of it are in the archive. I don't post on a subject when I am going to be sensored.
I must admit though I remove this forum largely from the criticism. Even though some admin / moderators here want to use their power to sensor and insult with freedom, there is not one overall king like at WW and PF to distort reality to their dictatorship.
If retailers are so wonderfull and business is great please tell me why just about every high end retailer in the country has a shop or presence at ebay, and in the last few weeks their usage of it has gone up maybe ten fold with the prices plummeting, perhaps it is too late to smell the coffee as they are in reality now tasting it.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 16:00
Who said business was great? Don't you watch the news or read the papers? Haven't you heard theres a credit crunch going on whereby mortgage payers are being hit with ever more arduous repayment schedules? Few people are spending. Things are difficult in many branches of retail, not just consumer electronics. This isn't because people suddenly have the urge to by-pass retailers altogether although that is bound to happen to a degree. This period will last a while but it will come back again.
I'm still intrigued to know how you suggest people audition and buy larger, expensive speakers in future. If you went to some bake-offs you'd see that unsurprisingly, people are reluctant to schlep heavy, large, valuable & fragile boxes across the country, into and out of cars, into and out of houses where others might attach them to and abuse them with inappropriate amplification. I can't think why. Where's their spirit of community?
Where should people hear these things? You know. The sort of speakers that might go well on the end of your bigger monoblocks. What do you suggest? Don't duck the question. It's important.
This post is just more likely to keep me on retailers.
I think you'll find, Richard, that when I consider there's been enough written on the subject that'll be the end of it. It only takes 2 secs to close a thread ;)
Let's hear something new now, please.
I must admit though I remove this forum largely from the criticism. Even though some admin / moderators here want to use their power to sensor and insult with freedom, there is not one overall king like at WW and PF to distort reality to their dictatorship.
Well that's a kind of back-handed compliment, I guess!
When has the above occurred, highlighted in bold? I can see no evidence of it.
Marco.
I think you'll find, Richard, that when I consider there's been enough written on the subject that'll be the end of it. It only takes 2 secs to close a thread ;)
Let's hear something new now, please.
Well that's a kind of back-handed compliment, I guess!
When has the above occurred, highlighted in bold? I can see no evidence of it.
Marco.
The insults have been most lately in the last few post from Steve Toy.
The sensorship - go to Trade Inspirations, Thread Traders - your thoughts on forums, Post #23, date and time 05-02-2008 12:15PM
More threats - sorry Marcus it doesn't hold water, by doing it you just prove my point. And why should I worry, this costs time, it is not for me I do it but my duty to the poor guys out there who have had decades of disservice and usage. Time it ended and now we have the means to do it.
anthonyTD
27-04-2008, 16:40
We will have to agree to differ on this one.
I disapear to RHS Wisley for the day entertaining the Wif and what do I find when I get back nothing but more AVI and ADM9 on the thread and this time from the boosses, what the !
hi richard,
sorry took so long to post these picks.
if you click on the the links below you will see a pick of one board of one of my creations, it is a power module from the soul amplifier range, [2003] which was a hybrid amplifier, and although there is about 140 components on this board most of it is control circuitry, ie, bespoke linear regulator circuits,for the signal devices, and also a pair of single ended class A Amplifiers that run the heater circuit of the valve.
in a stereo 15 watt soul amplifier there are two modules like this, [one for each channel] also there are four other boards that acompany these, with all the related raw DC elements on.
as i said, i dont usualy do conventional circuitry!;)
anthony...
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/soul1.jpg
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/soul2.jpg
Who said business was great? Don't you watch the news or read the papers? Haven't you heard theres a credit crunch going on whereby mortgage payers are being hit with ever more arduous repayment schedules? Few people are spending. Things are difficult in many branches of retail, not just consumer electronics. This isn't because people suddenly have the urge to by-pass retailers altogether although that is bound to happen to a degree. This period will last a while but it will come back again.
I'm still intrigued to know how you suggest people audition and buy larger, expensive speakers in future. If you went to some bake-offs you'd see that unsurprisingly, people are reluctant to schlep heavy, large, valuable & fragile boxes across the country, into and out of cars, into and out of houses where others might attach them to and abuse them with inappropriate amplification. I can't think why. Where's their spirit of community?
Where should people hear these things? You know. The sort of speakers that might go well on the end of your bigger monoblocks. What do you suggest? Don't duck the question. It's important.
There are plenty of ways around this. The solving of this problem is in the future, it will involve the manufacturer getting of his arse to do something. One would be to use your client base, most are enthusiasts and would love to help, perhaps for some sort of consideration that would fit in with community instead of industry considerations. The other would be the redundant reps actually doing something instead of wasting time drinking tea in shop dem rooms.
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 16:56
Am I the only member of admin who suggests that Richard is perhaps a bit b&t? Is what I say completely untrue?
Richard,
The insults have been most lately in the last few post from Steve Toy.
Sorry, I don't see any "insults" from Steve :confused:
What do you deem as "insults"?
The sensorship - go to Trade Inspirations, Thread Traders - your thoughts on forums, Post #23, date and time 05-02-2008 12:15PM
It's not a matter of censorship, Richard. You have a tendency to go too far sometimes, and that's not your version of too far, it's ours. Ultimately we're in charge and you have to respect that when we make a decision you abide by it.
More threats - sorry Marcus it doesn't hold water, by doing it you just prove my point. And why should I worry, this costs time, it is not for me I do it but my duty to the poor guys out there who have had decades of disservice and usage. Time it ended and now we have the means to do it.
It's not a threat, Richard; it's just the way it is. You can't expect to get away with doing anything you like on a public forum where you're not in charge.
Now, please don't abuse the privilege we've given you to 'rant'. I've asked you nicely, and I won't be doing it again, so let's put the retailer thing to bed now :)
I'm sure there's plenty more subjects you can rant about, so please respect our wishes and change the record.
Marco.
Am I the only member of admin who suggests that Richard is perhaps a bit b&t? Is what I say completely untrue?
Sorry, Steve, what's "b&t"? I know what G&T is but not b&t :eyebrows:
Once I know what it is I'll let you know if I think he is!
Marco.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 17:06
You really are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that would work or be satisfactory to the majority of potential customers. How would it actually operate? Say I'm interested in comparing a pair of big Spendors with some big Focals or ATC's. I call each manufacturer and they tell me the name of an individual who has a pair of the speakers,(how did they choose them?!!!) an individual who won't mind me taking my electronics along to his house, hooking them up and listening for 2 to 3 hours while I decide whether the speakers are for me?
Its preposterous Richard & you know it.
It's one thing to be selling compact boxes of (relatively lightweight) electronics via ebay on a sale or return basis, its another altogether to try do it with large speakers or expensive turntables. A dealer network is a far better arrangement. That's why they came into being in the first place.
I accept that many dealers need to shape up. Some will go bust in this deepening recession but there are others that will remain successful. They are generally those who give good service, and who don't simply rely on shifting boxes for their 40 point margin. Often they make their own products too be it cables, tables, electronics, or even loudspeakers. Generally they have other strings to their bow.
These kind of shops will continue to survive, particularly if people appreciate them for the very useful amenity they can offer.
You really are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that would work or be satisfactory to the majority of potential customers. How would it actually operate? Say I'm interested in comparing a pair of big Spendors with some big Focals or ATC's. I call each manufacturer and they tell me the name of an individual who has a pair of the speakers,(how did they choose them?!!!) an individual who won't mind me taking my electronics along to his house, hooking them up and listening for 2 to 3 hours while I decide whether the speakers are for me?
Its preposterous Richard & you know it.
It's one thing to be selling compact boxes of (relatively lightweight) electronics via ebay on a sale or return basis, its another altogether to try do it with large speakers or expensive turntables. A dealer network is a far better arrangement. That's why they came into being in the first place.
I accept that many dealers need to shape up. Some will go bust in this deepening recession but there are others that will remain successful. They are generally those who give good service, and who don't simply rely on shifting boxes for their 40 point margin. Often they make their own products too be it cables, tables, electronics, or even loudspeakers. Generally they have other strings to their bow.
These kind of shops will continue to survive, particularly if people appreciate them for the very useful amenity they can offer.
I don't know it, there are no easy answers, even with retail this is a problem as it is very rare to find one retailer with all you want to hear. So which is best, one imperfect system that costs you twice as much to another imperfect system.
As everyone keeps saying shop dems are largely a waste of time, same with shows. So please tell me what the difference is between a manufacturers rep coming around and wiring up and leaving for a couple of days and a retailer doing it. Even accounting for a reps commission it is about 30 to 40%.
Reps could be part time semi amateur enthusiasts who represent the products they use and love in their local area, what for, well how about discount on product - that way no tax. Or as a employee on commission basis only. I am not happy about this as it just creates more on-cost and more trough slurpers, but it will be far more cost effective than a retailer and his 100% mark-up.
This is for future discussion but there are many ways that will tie in community with dems and product. I was working with concepts in this back in 1991 and in my mind long before that as I have posted recently. Search under my name a few days ago or go to www.nene-valley-audio.com and look at NVA Challenge in archive. So this is no new thing for me I have been thinking about it for over 20 years and now we have the opportunity to do something concrete.
So Guy or Murray or what ever you call yourself now there is a future that *will* be different to the current status quo, I will not decide it, the customer will. I am just the finger pointing, not the moon.
hi richard,
sorry took so long to post these picks.
if you click on the the links below you will see a pick of one board of one of my creations, it is a power module from the soul amplifier range, [2003] which was a hybrid amplifier, and although there is about 140 components on this board most of it is control circuitry, ie, bespoke linear regulator circuits,for the signal devices, and also a pair of single ended class A Amplifiers that run the heater circuit of the valve.
in a stereo 15 watt soul amplifier there are two modules like this, [one for each channel] also there are four other boards that acompany these, with all the related raw DC elements on.
as i said, i dont usualy do conventional circuitry!;)
anthony...
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/soul1.jpg
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/soul2.jpg
So what is supposed to astound me?
For a start solder resist act as a capacitor, and leaving all the unused track and fill in unremoved creates static and field storage areas. I wouldn't do it that way.
Richard,
Sorry, I don't see any "insults" from Steve :confused:
What do you deem as "insults"?
It's not a matter of censorship, Richard. You have a tendency to go too far sometimes, and that's not your version of too far, it's ours. Ultimately we're in charge and you have to respect that when we make a decision you abide by it.
It's not a threat, Richard; it's just the way it is. You can't expect to get away with doing anything you like on a public forum where you're not in charge.
Now, please don't abuse the privilege we've given you to 'rant'. I've asked you nicely, and I won't be doing it again, so let's put the retailer thing to bed now :)
I'm sure there's plenty more subjects you can rant about, so please respect our wishes and change the record.
Marco.
*You* asked *me* to give examples, so I have have. So now you make excuses for them. Fair enough, if you don't want an answer don't ask the question.
I was told quite clearly that I could rant about what I wanted as long as I wasn't rude (apart from to Ashley :smoking:), so just because you are getting some stick from the slurpers you want to change the rules.
You can make your own decisions without my input you know.
Richard,
We're not changing the rules. Threads by their very nature evolve - yes we've given you permission to 'rant', but as we don't know exactly what you're going to write it's impossible to know what may require moderating. You can't just write absolutely whatever you feel like writing; there has to be some kind of control and mutual respect.
You can finish your discussion with Guy, but after that I will have to ask that you change to an alternative subject of discussion. If you don't respect our request then your posts will be edited with whatever material we don't wish to host removed and an explanation attached for all to see as to why certain text has been deleted.
I'm being very fair with you so please appreciate this and we can all look forward to reading some new controversial and interesting material from you :)
Thanks in advance.
Marco.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 18:13
Still cloud cuckoo land I'm afraid. 'Everyone' doesn't keep saying shop dems are a waste of time. Who is everyone? Where did you pick up that idea? From your ebay customers or on the various fora?
"Reps could be part time semi amateur enthusiasts who represent the products they use and love in their local area, what for, well how about discount on product - that way no tax. Or as a employee on commission basis only. I am not happy about this as it just creates more on-cost and more trough slurpers"
If you are going to rant about all of this, at least come up with some workable & sensible suggestions. So far it's just hot air & nonsense.
I remember your NVA challenge. Besides the one for the magazine, how many did you really do? Honestly. It didn't look a very cost effective solution to me not for you as the supplier anyway. Was it really a runaway success? Looked more like a publicity stunt to me.
Good audio equipment is not generally bought in the same way as cosmetics (Avon) or indeed knickers & sex toys (Anne Summers). Should it be? I'd have hoped the decisions were not taken so lightly.
If you do want something to really worry about, consider deals like this one.
http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/caseaccessories/kama-bay-amp
I just bought one. £48 delivered. Sounds pretty good. For some people it would be all they need. I'm sure more powerful versions will be along soon too.
I think you'll find, Richard, that when I consider there's been enough written on the subject that'll be the end of it. It only takes 2 secs to close a thread ;)
Let's hear something new now, please.
Marco.
This part of the thread was supposed to be about Chinese valve amplifiers. Look at how and by whom it was changed back to retailers!
Still cloud cuckoo land I'm afraid. 'Everyone' doesn't keep saying shop dems are a waste of time. Who is everyone? Where did you pick up that idea? From your ebay customers or on the various fora?
"Reps could be part time semi amateur enthusiasts who represent the products they use and love in their local area, what for, well how about discount on product - that way no tax. Or as a employee on commission basis only. I am not happy about this as it just creates more on-cost and more trough slurpers"
If you are going to rant about all of this, at least come up with some workable & sensible suggestions. So far it's just hot air & nonsense.
I remember your NVA challenge. Besides the one for the magazine, how many did you really do? Honestly. It didn't look a very cost effective solution to me not for you as the supplier anyway. Was it really a runaway success? Looked more like a publicity stunt to me.
Good audio equipment is not generally bought in the same way as cosmetics (Avon) or indeed knickers & sex toys (Anne Summers). Should it be? I'd have hoped the decisions were not taken so lightly.
If you do want something to really worry about, consider deals like this one.
http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/caseaccessories/kama-bay-amp
I just bought one. £48 delivered. Sounds pretty good. For some people it would be all they need. I'm sure more powerful versions will be along soon too.
It was an experiment, we did a few and sold some goodies but the retailers were unwilling to get off their arses and contribute - it is a big country - I went and did one in Yeovil as no one else could for example. Of course it didn't work otherwise I would still be doing them. It was an idea, I like ideas and lateral thinking.
There is much possibility, what are you going to do when your dealers die, go on ebay, or advertise direct through the mags (if they haven't died), what is your plan B. You seem to forget your private mails to me a few months ago on this subject, "watching with interest".
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 18:45
It was relevant to why and how I bought the Pure sound.
Steve,
What do you mean by "b&t"? I did ask you earlier in the thread! ;)
Marco.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 18:55
I only got involved in this thread when I felt that what I was doing and how it was being sold was being unjustly criticised. I've said what I need to say about retailers, you obviously don't have any sensible, practical or workable alternatives (particularly with regard to choosing loudspeakers). But rant away! It's your space. If & when you actually have anything worthwhile to say, I might join in again!
I can't recall the exact content of those private mails. It would've been early days. However, having seen how working with good dealers can be effective (for me anyway) its my intention to persevere with it. Exporting also helps.
rgs
Guy
This part of the thread was supposed to be about Chinese valve amplifiers. Look at how and by whom it was changed back to retailers!
You know what I'm on about, Richard - just keep it in mind. I'll be monitoring the content of this thread very closely ;)
Marco.
If you do want something to really worry about, consider deals like this one.
http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/caseaccessories/kama-bay-amp
I just bought one. £48 delivered. Sounds pretty good. For some people it would be all they need. I'm sure more powerful versions will be along soon too.
Brilliant, I wish them every success and everyone else who makes the decision to go direct. They are no threat to me nor are you and nor is anyone, if I sell nothing from this point on it makes no difference of any consequence.
You don't get it do you?
I teach Tai-Chi for a living - NVA was re started to service old customers and trade in and upgrade, if that covers my ebay costs fine, I am not interested in employing staff, getting a factory, taking the hi-fi market by storm etc etc etc I will leave that to you :eyebrows:
My customers are my friends. If others want to be friendly and buy my amps and cables well who am I to complain. I am small beer, I am no threat to anyone apart from conceptually to the slurpers, no one can hurt me. I have the max turnover I can cope with, 3 months ago it was more than I could cope with so the recession is doing me a favour.
Richard,
You do seem to have a serious chip the size of grand canyon regarding dealers, and how poor at our jobs we all are.
I believe bitter and twisted has been mentioned here, 100% apt
Your constant rantings relating to how its all doomed, dealers are dead an buried its all e-bay and on line.
So how would suggest to a potential customer how to choose their next speakers/ Turntable or digital replay system? Put a bid on e-bay ?
You know a quality dealer builds a rapport with his customers, understands there needs, and demonstrates products, in both a dealer and home enviroment and matches and selects the components that will compliment what the client is after.
Not a mis match off flea bay and forever disappearing in circles trying to seek that sound you like for kit swaps on kit swaps.
Filterlab
27-04-2008, 19:15
...but the retailers were unwilling to get off their arses and contribute...
Sorry, but is that any wonder given your contempt for them?
:)
Richard,
You do seem to have a serious chip the size of grand canyon regarding dealers, and how poor at our jobs we all are.
I believe bitter and twisted has been mentioned here, 100% apt
Your constant rantings relating to how its all doomed, dealers are dead an buried its all e-bay and on line.
So how would suggest to a potential customer how to choose their next speakers/ Turntable or digital replay system? Put a bid on e-bay ?
You know a quality dealer builds a rapport with his customers, understands there needs, and demonstrates products, in both a dealer and home enviroment and matches and selects the components that will compliment what the client is after.
Not a mis match off flea bay and forever disappearing in circles trying to seek that sound you like for kit swaps on kit swaps.
And takes 50% of the price of the product for the privilege of your service. No matter what you say there is *NO* excuse for this profiteering.
The fact that you are good at making the customer feel he has got something for that service is like the skill of the stage magician.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 19:17
I wouldn't presume anything of the sort Richard! The more I learn the more I realise I don't know. Long term it is my intention to design a full range of items & get them made out there. If it succeeds, I'll be happy. If not, so be it. Like you I have very low overheads. I just have a different, somewhat less jaundiced view of how retailing works, why people like it and why it has evolved in the way that it has. I don't regard retailers as leeches in the way that you do. They can offer a valuable service. People can take or leave it. Your alternatives so far are utterly unrealistic, that's all.
retailing. you really don't get it do you? :) Incidentally, do you charge people to teach them Tai Chi?
Sorry, but is that any wonder given your contempt for them?
:)
This was 18 years ago, I had my doubts about them but the changes happened in the next couple of years when the hi-fi manufacturing mafia stitched up the retailers with retail contracts and the nights of the long knives arrived. We lost over half of our industry at that point. I have posted many times before about it, look in the archive. Marco has been listening to one and singing its praises - Albarry, well it was bloody good but killed by illegal reatailer contracts by the like of Linn and Naim and others, and the retailers puting up with it for greed and making the change from selling "the best product for the customer" to "selling the best product for my bank balance and to meet my retailer contracts".
Nothing has changed - now it should!
Steady now Richard, you do you blood pressure no good. Your keyboard must 'sigh' with relief when you go to bed!
Your bile has poured out across just about ever audio forum in the last 12 months, have you actually said anything positive at all about the industry in general?
Or is it just negativity and dis-stain that pulses through your veins?
I suspect the 'Victor Meldrew' of the audio world is after a spot on 'Grumpy old men'
Steady now Richard, you do you blood pressure no good. Your keyboard must 'sigh' with relief when you go to bed!
Your bile has poured out across just about ever audio forum in the last 12 months, have you actually said anything positive at all about the industry in general?
Or is it just negativity and dis-stain that pulses through your veins?
I suspect the 'Victor Meldrew' of the audio world is after a spot on 'Grumpy old men'
I love the grumpy old men programs and the grumpy old women are even funnier.
I have a mission :eyebrows: as a Super Hero - to write (about) the wrongs of the industry - to show it starkly the way it is in the face of the growling flatulent slurpers.
"Is it an Emu, is it a pregnant Warthog - no its Super Muppet"
pure sound
27-04-2008, 19:43
While you're at it Richard why not include other shysters like Marks & Spencers, WH Smiths & Woolworths? They all mark up what they sell too. How dare they? Surely these places should be run as charities. The staff there should work for nothing and just be glad of the opportunity to be of service. Rather than find all your clothes in one shop like M&S, surely its far better to approach each manufacturer who supplies them and ask for 1 pair of socks, one jumper or whatever. I'm sure they'd be delighted to deal with each individual customer on this basis. Perhaps they could have commissioned reps on the road lending out individual pairs of pants for home trial. Do you realise how little pants cost to make? It's an outrage. Something must be done!
Filterlab
27-04-2008, 19:50
Hehehehe, nice. :)
I quite like the idea (albeit preposterous) of a pants rep, not so keen on the demo pair though. :(
:lolsign:
Right, enough is enough. No more talk about dealers and retailers now. It's time for an alternative subject matter, Richard.
The choice is yours! :)
But any more references to dealers will simply be removed. I trust that you will have the sense and maturity to comply.
What's your next ranting subject going to be then? :smoking:
Marco.
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 20:22
So we end up with a circular argument. The answer brings us back to dealers. Sorry Richard, no cigar. Try again!
Yes from me to points 1 and 3
Mike.
So we end up with a circular argument. The answer brings us back to dealers. Sorry Richard, no cigar. Try again!
Don't be daft, am I now banned from talking about Chinese valve amps.
I wont talk about retailers in this context so you watch and see who does :ner:
Yes from me to points 1 and 3
Mike.
Excuse me asking, almighty moderator, but what has this got to do with the thread.
anthonyTD
27-04-2008, 20:29
So what is supposed to astound me?
For a start solder resist act as a capacitor, and leaving all the unused track and fill in unremoved creates static and field storage areas. I wouldn't do it that way.
you obviously dont use ground planes in your designs then?
and it wasnt meant to astound you , i was trying to prove a point.
lets see some of your handy work, ohh sorry, we allready have...:(
Richard,
I am not mighty in any way.
1. I have bought direct from China via ebay.
3. I have bought items with a British name on them that have been made in China.
Quite simple really. At least it was until Steve deleted your post above.
Cheers,
Mike.
you obviously dont use ground planes in your designs then?
and it wasnt meant to astound you , i was trying to prove a point.
lets see some of your handy work, ohh sorry, we allready have...:(
The point you were trying to prove was?
Steve Toy
27-04-2008, 20:33
Richard, your questions have already been answered so don't feign the injured party on this.
Filterlab
27-04-2008, 20:33
On the smilies note, there's over one hundred on the site, try looking carefully and see if you can find how to access them when you post.
On the smilies note, there's over one hundred on the site, try looking carefully and see if you can find how to access them when you post.
I have seen the second page and used some, it is just I have seen some really funny ones at ww and other forums, it would be nice to have them.
Copy and paste the ones you see that you like and include them in a PM to admin. If we like them we'll consider including them in the available selection :)
Marco.
Richard, your questions have already been answered so don't feign the injured party on this.
Some answers came and then the thread was hi-jacked by someone changing the subject to retailers. This part of the thread has plenty of scope and a long way to run yet.
I don't feign anything, this is reality computer :eyebrows:
Copy and paste the ones you see that you like and include them in a PM to admin. If we like them we'll consider including them in the available selection :)
Marco.
Will do young man :smoking:
Perhaps we could have a new section for those in the care in (audio) community with Crusty Old Codgers Syndrome (Cocs) Maybe Richard could head up this portion of the forum? I can not think of anyone more suited.
pure sound
27-04-2008, 20:44
Do we have to restrict it to valve amps? Do products from the likes of QUAD, Cambridge Audio, Wharfedale, Mordaunt Short etc count? The Cambridge stuff in particular represents great value imho!
anthonyTD
27-04-2008, 20:45
The point you were trying to prove was?
its allready been made!;)
Some answers came and then the thread was high jacked by someone changing the subject to retailers. This part of the thread has plenty of scope and a long way to run yet.
I don't think there's anything particularly challenging about discussing Chinese valve amplifiers unless you're planning some cunning twist, perhaps returning it to the subject of slagging retailers again? :lol:
No, we need a whole new remix of the record, Richard.
What's your view, for example, on young oriental women and the unorthodox 'launching' of ping-pong balls?
Marco.
Excuse me asking, almighty moderator, but what has this got to do with the thread.
You seem to have missed my reply. See below:
Richard,
I am not mighty in any way.
1. I have bought direct from China via ebay.
3. I have bought items with a British name on them that have been made in China.
Quite simple really. At least it was until Steve deleted your post above.
Cheers,
Mike.
I don't think there's anything particularly challenging about discussing Chinese valve amplifiers
I don't think Richards original questions were restricted to valve amps. See below:
So who has bought at low price direct from China via ebay?
So who has paid much higher price for product made in China and then supposedly modified in the UK?
So who has paid though the nose for product made in China but with a Brit name on it?
So who's the fool (can we have some more smilies I am bored with these)
Cheers,
Mike.
I don't think there's anything particularly challenging about discussing Chinese valve amplifiers unless you're planning some cunning twist, perhaps returning it to the subject of slagging retailers again? :lol:
Marco.
As I said - I didn't change the thread to retailers, look in the archive. I wish to discuss Chinese amplifiers unless this is banned as well. It is my thread so it is my choice.
Have you noticed how few if any of the Chinese amps up at ebay are solid state, any views here on why that should be.
Yes, Richard has a point. Can we therefore concentate on this:
So, on the new topic - just how far can these ping pong balls be launched? And if one landed in your glass of beer would you still drink it?
Only if it didn't have dandruff on it... My mate's one had a ginger hair stuck to it - how the f*ck that got there I don't know!
Marco.
Oh for the love of God!!!!! :bog:
Chris Frost
27-04-2008, 21:57
Yes, Richard has a point. Can we therefore concentate on this:
Only if it didn't have dandruff on it... My mate's one had a ginger hair stuck to it - how the f*ck that got there I don't know!
Marco.I've heard that ladies of the Orient have straight hair down there. Would that be better or worse aerodynamically I wonder ;)
You seem to have missed my reply. See below:
Well it looks to me seeing as every mod and his grandmother is sticking oars in pointing in different directions that confusion reigned so we all got wet
Huh?.... Whatever!
It was a simple answer to your original question, that's all.
I'm quite happy to f**k off out of this thread. Cya
:wave:
I've heard that ladies of the Orient have straight hair down there. Would that be better or worse aerodynamically I wonder ;)
Keep this crap out of my thread.
Huh?.... Whatever!
It was a simple answer to your original question that's all.
I'm quite happy to f**k off out of this thread. Cya
:wave:
Confusion again, you refered in your post to a post being removed that you were commenting on. That is what I am commenting on. So your original purpose to comment on the thread was bollocked up by some other mod deleting the relative parts. If all of you bollock around at once what chance do we stand. Appoint a mod to deal with little me, if I have a choice I will have Shian7 or at a pinch Marco. The others seem a waste of space at the moment (of course I mean on *this* thread).
Your 'questions' are still present in post #361
Your 'questions' are still present in post #361
It hasn't stopped all the confusion has it?
If all of you bollock around at once what chance do we stand. Appoint a mod to deal with little me, if I have a choice I will have Shian7 or at a pinch Marco.
You don't get a choice, sweety. You've got me. Thanks for the vote of confidence, though ;)
Have you noticed how few if any of the Chinese amps up at ebay are solid state, any views here on why that should be.
Interesting point. I don't really know why. What do you think, Richard?
Marco.
Chris Frost
27-04-2008, 22:11
Chinese amps are great. Everyone should have one, or two, or three...well at least one anyway.
And a nice ping-pong ball 'machine'.
Perhaps we could have a new section for those in the care in (audio) community with Crusty Old Codgers Syndrome (Cocs) Maybe Richard could head up this portion of the forum? I can not think of anyone more suited.
Keep your crap out of my thread.
Oi, Chrissy baby be good!! ;)
Marco.
Oi, Chrissy baby be good!! ;)
Marco.
He hasn't come here to contribute to the thread he has come here to be disuptive and insulting in any way he can, does your ethos allow this?
No. I think he's got the message :)
Can you now elucidate on your point about Chinese valve amps? I'm genuinely curious.
Marco.
No. I think he's got the message :)
Can you now elucidate on your point about Chinese valve amps? I'm genuinely curious.
Marco.
Well a point is a little unpointed in this case. I have never done any of the things in my question so I am interested in the answers. But for me the most interesting question is the last one about why no sand amps, I think I may know the answer but I am interested in the opinion of those that buy them direct or import them.
So what I am leading to is that if China becomes the only sensibly priced place to buy bottle amps that means kiss UK - US - EU production goodbye. So how do the tweekers fit in with this. I personally would not like to do lots of work for a Chinese manufacturer and expect to have an exclusive for my ideas or to stay out of their other production. Well I know the Chinese from dealing with them for over 20 years and the answer is not a chance in hell. A Chinese ex TCC teacher of mine published a book and printed it in China as the print rate was less than a third of EU price. So they just printed an extra 10,000 and sold them themselves - there is no ethos there are no business ethics.
I personally would never allow any work of mine to get anywhere near them as they are master copiers.
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