View Full Version : Mains cables, myths, magic, laws of physics and dambusters
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 17:04
I've started this thread, ahead of plan, because of a concern that this discussion was hijacking another thread. So anyone fancy chewing the fat about innovation and the laws of physics, or any of the other topics in the title, feel free cos its my thread and I can talk about this stuff too.
Marco - Yes your point tidied up the language, but missed the point. Barnes Wallis (Stan cited him too in our earlier ding), James Dyson, and the Wilbur and Orville, all pushed the boundaries WITHIN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. They were challenging what could be achieved, they were innovative, and determined, and right, and made major contributions, but they all acknowledged and worked WITH science. And they all convincingly demonstrated their ideas worked.
The Wright brothers did not strap a passing blond to a plane saying "trust me - it does work" - they flew it and proved it
Wallis did not say "trust me - it will bounce - just send 300 aircrew over and give it a go" he used maths and physics to prove it, then fired marbles at goldfish, and blew up garden ponds, before he even got prototype bombs into aircraft
And I'm worn out with James Dyson -
Have a barbecue to chef at - back later :cool:
Gordon Steadman
05-09-2013, 17:59
Richard,
I can't help feeling that you are just wasting your time.This is an argument that has been done to death. It goes round and round like a black or silver disc but never reaches the end of side.
The 'physics' believers will never be convinced that the laws don't apply and the 'pure' subjectivists will only believe what their ears (or expectations and wallets) are telling them and will never admit that they could be mistaken. There never seems to be a middle path.
Whilst I believe in discussion, there comes a point where it all breaks down into another belief/non belief religion type argument. The louder anyone shouts, the louder will be the riposte with neither side giving an inch. It appears on every forum, to the extent that some get banned for being too 'intense'. Why is it so damned important to be 'right'?
My hi-fi is there to deliver music. I don't give a stuff how it does it. I have never found anything necessary to deliver my needs apart from good quality, simple as possible equipment. No-one is going to convince me that anything else is necessary. If others want to obsess then great. Just don't preach to me about how I'm missing out because all I care about is the music not the shiny bits.
I am on this forum because the subject interests me and there is help available should I need it. As soon as all the crap comes out, I do wonder if I can be bothered though, its just like watching a boxing match and just as sensible.
Having said all that, when I see something so stupid that it goes beyond magic, I do feel tempted to join in. I always regret it afterwards though:doh:
sq225917
05-09-2013, 18:08
I'm not a cable believer. They have simple properties and once you shield them well enough and make them thick enough then really that should be it...
So I'm struggling with the measurements showing reduced THD from the new cables from the guy who used to run Virtual Dynamics.
Fancy cables with magnets (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=8272876.PN.&OS=PN/8272876&RS=PN/8272876)
My natural inclination is to assume there's something odd about the test set-up... but maybe....
It's all good fun, nothing new will transpire and we can all argue till the cows come home, I do however like to read the threads from people who say mains leads make no difference whatsoever as I find it highly enjoyable when a customer makes an effort to phone me to say how incredibly better his hi-fi sounds just by adding a new mains lead, I even get praised for the fuses I sell too. Don't forget all these people who buy these things can send them back if they don't like them. MCRU is 3 years old as a business, I have had less than 10 items of any sort sent back.
Let's add a bit of bling to the discussion...................
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/The%20Ultimate/dfbc6247.jpg
tests and reports are great but what about the stuff that tests crap but sounds great like hifiman headphones as an example?
martin did your xlr cables arrive?
I'm not a cable believer. They have simple properties and once you shield them well enough and make them thick enough then really that should be it...
So I'm struggling with the measurements showing reduced THD from the new cables from the guy who used to run Virtual Dynamics.
Fancy cables with magnets (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=8272876.PN.&OS=PN/8272876&RS=PN/8272876)
My natural inclination is to assume there's something odd about the test set-up... but maybe....
The test measurements quoted are totally meaningless. There is no statistical analysis: implying the measurements were only performed the one time. Reported changes in THD, THD+Noise, are too small to be regarded as significant without any statistical information.
realysm42
05-09-2013, 18:31
Dave, no sir; are they headed for my work place?
walpurgis
05-09-2013, 18:43
tests and reports are great but what about the stuff that tests crap but sounds great like hifiman headphones as an example?
And valve amps!
julesd68
05-09-2013, 18:52
Let's add a bit of bling to the discussion...................
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/The%20Ultimate/dfbc6247.jpg
A very interesting point. If the cable didn't look 'bling' and shiny, and actually looked a bit tatty, would it 'sound' as good? I doubt it!
Whilst I believe in discussion, there comes a point where it all breaks down into another belief/non belief religion type argument. The louder anyone shouts, the louder will be the riposte with neither side giving an inch. It appears on every forum, to the extent that some get banned for being too 'intense'. Why is it so damned important to be 'right'?
Indeed (on all counts). I think that Richard is getting a little bit too intense, but probably only because it's a subject he's passionate about.
For me, these discussions are never about being right - they're about sharing views and learning from each other's valid experiences, particularly if someone of an opposite mindset/opinion can make you think differently about something you previously believed, and in such a way that one genuinely learns something new.
What I abhor is arrogance, entrenched views and blinkered dogma - all of which inhibit genuine learning.
Marco - Yes your point tidied up the language, but missed the point. Barnes Wallis (Stan cited him too in our earlier ding), James Dyson, and the Wilbur and Orville, all pushed the boundaries WITHIN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. They were challenging what could be achieved, they were innovative, and determined, and right, and made major contributions, but they all acknowledged and worked WITH science. And they all convincingly demonstrated their ideas worked.
Richard, I totally agree. I've conceded the point from the other thread regarding your stance on the laws of physics, as my last reply to you there should've indicated. Challenging the 'accepted norm' or 'currently accepted wisdom', which I outlined in that response, is really what I meant - and I stand by what I wrote there in that respect.
Basically, as I've said many times before, I'm totally against the 'it's bollocks because it can't be measured' brigade, in audio, as in my opinion it demonstrates both simplistic thinking and a stubborn unwillingness to admit the possible existence of new phenomena which forces one to rethink what was previously possible.
That's it in a nutshell :)
Marco.
as I find it highly enjoyable when a customer makes an effort to phone me to say how incredibly better his hi-fi sounds just by adding a new mains lead
I'm sure you do David. End of the day though, "incredibly better" is massively exaggerated. If there were very clear and easily identifiable differences between cables then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. I am a cable believer, but it's not night and day differences. A lot of irritation in the cable debate stems from when people start saying "huge", "what a massive difference" etc. I know it's all subjective (what is "huge" etc.)... unfortunately a subjective medium such as cables (damned if we can measure it) is more prey to hyperbole.
And valve amps!
Sorry, Geoff, that's a bad example.
Good valve amps should ALWAYS test well, in terms of the usual electrical parameters (and consequently sound good), as I'm sure all the resident valve amplifier designers here will tell you. Anthony TD and Nick Gorham, for example, would never allow such amps to leave their test bench and go into production otherwise! ;)
If you're talking purely about certain aspects of distortion, in comparison with that of solid-state amplifiers, then that's a different matter :)
Marco.
walpurgis
05-09-2013, 19:20
If you're talking purely about certain aspects of distortion, in comparison with that of solid-state amplifiers, then that's a different matter :) Marco.
Yes Marco, that was what I was getting at. Many older 'Classic' valve amplifiers were renowned for not measuring well, but still sounded superb.
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 20:20
Ok, one at a time.
I started this thread to get the discussion off someone elses thread which mcru complained had been hijacked.
Whilst my last post there was meant to be tongue-in cheek I did note that marcos continuation of the "off thread" discussion was warmly applauded by the very person who asked for posts to stay on topic. When it suits? Or brown tonguing?
Gordon. I am not that worked up. The jury is still out. I plan to make a serious attempt to hear mains cables make a difference. If they don't I would allow others to prove they do. If they can't or won't expect me to call "stinking fish" and maybe fraud. I don't like bullshit - even from otherwise nice chaps.
To return to barnes wallis.he did not say "I can't explain it, but trust me it will bounce".he produced pages of computations and then said "look nevermind that - I'll show you" . Anyone care to do that for mains cables, instead of bleating the old mantra of "I know other blokes who ca hear it"?
Do not confuse "cannot be measured" with "appears to require the laws of physics to be changed". I have noted before that there are no measurements that explain clearly audible differences inamplifiers. Butthose differences are capable of possible explanation and do not require the laws of physics to be re-written.
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 20:29
A very interesting point. If the cable didn't look 'bling' and shiny, and actually looked a bit tatty, would it 'sound' as good? I doubt it!
I doubt it too. Once ihave had a chance to test it for myself and my hard earned cash is safe, I fancy a nice big "put your money where your mouth is". But I had not planned to start this thread yet. I planned to try the cables first.
This weekend hopefully :)
Do not confuse "cannot be measured" with "appears to require the laws of physics to be changed". I have noted before that there are no measurements that explain clearly audible differences inamplifiers. Butthose differences are capable of possible explanation and do not require the laws of physics to be re-written.
Sure, Richard, but for me the key lies in what you've written yourself above, which I've highlighted - and specifically in the word "appears". IMO, that is the crux of the matter.
I genuinely don't believe that the laws of physics *are* being changed, when it comes to the claimed efficacy of 'exotic' mains cables; I simply consider that the reason for the improvements many of us can clearly hear, is just not yet properly understood.
In any case, we can debate the 'whys and wherefores' of all this stuff until the cows come home, which only has limited appeal. At the end of the day, most of us here really only care about what gives us the best sounding system we can afford, which in turn allows us to hear our favourite music at its best. Therefore, in that respect, I would no sooner give up using my 'exotic' mains leads, than you would your love of Pink Triangle! ;)
Marco.
On the subject of mains cables there are only two important criteria, BOTH of which have objective supporting evidence:
1.
The total loop resistance between your hi-fi and the local electricity supply sub-station. Differences in total loop resistance of less than 0.01 of an ohm produce a clearly audible difference. There are key areas of sound that are affected:- Bass, whereby the overhang you were blaming the front end/amp/speakers for and you might not have realised you had until it is gone, has been eliminated. Noise floor lowers too.
2.
There is no such thing as a perfect mains cable - fact.
What is also to be considered under this heading is not how "sooper dooper" your fancy bling expensive aftermarket power cable is, but just how SHIT the average freebie 5 amp rated IEC power cable is found in the bottom of the box the hi-fi came in is, or has been purloined from powering your computer.
What you are doing is TAKING OUT the puny pathetic little power cable of indeterminate ancestry and replacing it with a cable that is LESS IMPERFECT than the one you have just removed. This scale of less imperfectness is usually (but not always) commensurate with cash outlay.
Job done.
Can we talk about interesting lady parts now instead? :eyebrows:
On the subject of mains cables there are only two important criteria, BOTH of which have objective supporting evidence:
1.
The total loop resistance between your hi-fi and the local electricity supply sub-station. Differences in total loop resistance of less than 0.01 of an ohm produce a clearly audible difference. There are key areas of sound that are affected:- Bass, whereby the overhang you were blaming the front end/amp/speakers for and you might not have realised you had until it is gone, has been eliminated. Noise floor lowers too.
......
Can we talk about interesting lady parts now instead? :eyebrows:
The loop resistance between your hi-fi and the local electricity supply sub-station is likely to be ~0.3 Ohm, taking into account the presence of the meter and domestic wiring (even if you have a dedicated spur installed for the hi-fi). A change of 0.01 of an Ohm will make no audible difference at all.
Depending on the environment, the biggest difference a mains cable can make is if it is shielded or not.
As to talking about "interesting lady parts" - I think you have the wrong forum. :scratch:
On the subject of mains cables there are only two important criteria, BOTH of which have objective supporting evidence...
I'm not aware of any objective evidence of the type you mention but I would be very interested in reading about it. Could you point me toward if please?
The loop resistance between your hi-fi and the local electricity supply sub-station is likely to be ~0.3 Ohm, taking into account the presence of the meter and domestic wiring (even if you have a dedicated spur installed for the hi-fi). A change of 0.01 of an Ohm will make no audible difference at all.
Depending on the environment, the biggest difference a mains cable can make is if it is shielded or not.
As to talking about "interesting lady parts" - I think you have the wrong forum.
0.3 Ohm? Which BOOK did you read that from?
Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable makes zero sound difference, nothing at all.
OOPS! Have I upset the "man love" contingent by daring to mention interesting lady parts? :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 06:48
0.3 Ohm? Which BOOK did you read that from?
Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable makes zero sound difference, nothing at all.
OOPS! Have I upset the "man love" contingent by daring to mention interesting lady parts? :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Given the origins of this thread, I could take issue with this new line of discussion, but - it's not my style. I just have a feeling Marco might - especially if you add pictures and links :sofa:
sq225917
06-09-2013, 07:05
Frank, I think Barrys point was that there is no difference between mains cables they either pass the current without melting and burning down your house- or they do not. Shielding can only help, it cannot hurt, though in all likelyhood it will do nothing.
An 'average' amplifier psu and circuit will have better than 80db PSRR, you'd need some really 'special' RFI modulating the incoming AC to be audible. I'm all about low resistance though and a good earth path.
Just to add to this thread, before you write mains wiring in the house as a low impedance job done system, it may be worth considering just how the ethernet over mains networking products work.
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 07:22
Sure, Richard, but for me the key lies in what you've written yourself above, which I've highlighted - and specifically in the word "appears". IMO, that is the crux of the matter.
I genuinely don't believe that the laws of physics *are* being changed, when it comes to the claimed efficacy of 'exotic' mains cables; I simply consider that the reason for the improvements many of us can clearly hear, is just not yet properly understood.
In any case, we can debate the 'whys and wherefores' of all this stuff until the cows come home, which only has limited appeal. At the end of the day, most of us here really only care about what gives us the best sounding system we can afford, which in turn allows us to hear our favourite music at its best. Therefore, in that respect, I would no sooner give up using my 'exotic' mains leads, than you would your love of Pink Triangle! ;)
Marco.
First, as I sit sober at my desktop PC, rather than try to shove in a sneaky post on my Galaxy in the midst of a very alcoholic barbecue, let me offer that as my excuse for the typo's in my earlier post.
Number two's. I am not obsessed by physics proving an effect. If an effect can be demonstrated, I am pretty chilled that there will be room in conventional physics for the phenomena to have an explanation. It may or may not be measurable if one has the right kit. No - for all that it may not seem it from our banter, I line up with Gordon on this as so many other points. I am not really interested, perhaps I should say primarily interested, in either the science or the equipment for that matter. I'm bothered by what it sounds like, and whether I get that "wow" factor - well, that deep satisfaction factor.
Where physics, technical stuff, and equipment design understanding comes into it, is narrowing down the effort I need to put in to getting that listening satisfaction. When I was the big cheese at PT, I had the luxury of being able to ponce all manner of fancy kit off others in the trade, and had the time to play with it, and the support of people I trusted to understand the techie bits when I needed them. Today I dont (although Arthur has let me loose in his toy cupboard a bit)
No - the issue for me, like you Marco, is can I hear it? And I don't have a problem with you or anybody else hearing it and enjoying it. I have a problem with you claiming to hear it and enjoy it, when I can't. I feel left out. I feel I'm missing out on something. The science and the cynicism come in through experience in those days when I was the big cheese at PT and I could spend a bit of time investigating these things. These were the days of the "Linn chip" as another Dave refers to it (I love that reference to the Linn chip being inserted so deep...). And the mains cable of the day was directional interconnects. Any number of people saying "my mate can hear it" "hundreds of satisfied customers can't be wrong" and all sorts of bollocks about copper crystal structures and the like. So we did a "put your money where your mouth is", got some of the prime candidate cables in with a group of Mooneys professing they could hear the benefit, did some simple blind tests, and nobody could hear anything.
These were MUCH easier tests to do than the "is a £1000 interconnect worth the money" tests. In brief, Owen was of the opinion sonic differences in interconnects were measurable, and proved it - or, to be more precise with my language, I should say, demonstrated his point to us at the factory (so not an independant panel of gifted auditioners - just the cloth-eared Pink Triangle crew) that he could make 2 interconnects sound the same by adjusting the impedance and capacitance. The cables genuinely sounded different, but because they measured different electrically. My point is, that there were a number of subjective other factors which could spoil this test. But with directional cables, its the same cable, its just the way you plug it in makes a difference. (or rather, I should say, doesn't make a difference)
Of course, the faithful have their excuses - and proved stone statues bled. The cables needed to "burn in" - no f***ing chance of doing a rational objective A:B on that one. And other nonsense. But whilst I was happy for the deranged to pursue their fantasies, I established that it would take drugs for me to hear a difference in directional interconnects.
And so back to mains cables. I plan to try them. If I can't hear a difference, I am going to get really grumpy like Gordon if anyone criticises my hearing or equipment. (This is your moment Effem). Mrs S has assured me that all my equipment is magnificent, and quite the best she has ever known, and anyone wanting to challenge her on that point will be directed to the source!
I have been at pains before hand to note that I won't be impressed with the claims that the mains in Yalding is different from the mains in the land of sheep speed-dating either.
I have anticipated the "ah - but you changed the wrong bit" or "you need to re-wire your house and get another £5000 gizmo to hear the benefit of a designer kettle lead" in earlier posts too. As I have noted - the faithfull profess that even the most trivial mains purchases "make a fundamental difference" "are the best upgrade I made" when it suits, and then suggest that the benefits are "subtle" or "based on other equipment" when it suits.
But I am deeply grateful to Dave at MCRU for his posts on this subject yesterday - since he has validated my experiment for me. I quote from post number 4 in this thread "as I find it highly enjoyable when a customer makes an effort to phone me to say how incredibly better his hi-fi sounds just by adding a new mains lead". That'll do for me. I've bought 2 of his cables, and they will be the only mains leads anywhere in my system when I test. There is it would appear no question that these are minor items "just by adding a new mains lead" I should get hifi which sounds "incredibly better". I'm looking forward to it :)
If I don't, I am looking for some explanations as to why I don't which are not pejorative with regard to me. I feel the onus of proof will have shifted to the faithful. Of course - it is possible I will be on the phone to Dave to tell him how impressed I am. They shipped yesterday :cool:
LOL to all of that, Richard! :eyebrows:
Anyway, which mains leads did you go for? Ultimately, it's your money, your hearing and your system (and so, in the context of your system, only YOUR ears matter), so whether you hear an improvement or not with the new mains cables, I doubt anyone here is going to give you a hard time, one way or the other!
Furthermore, if the cables don't do 'what it says on the tin', as it were, you can send them back for a refund, so there's nothing to lose, other than your time trying them out.
As for the issue of you feeling left out, should you not be able to hear a difference, then I'm afraid that's life. There are so many variables in the equation with this type of thing that it's impossible to ascertain the cause of why that will have happened; should it indeed happen.
Anyway, could you do me a favour please and list all the boxes in your system that require the use of a mains lead, presuming of course that there are more than two? The reason I'm asking is so I can advise you on which components would likely benefit most from the new mains cables. If you've only got 2 bits of kit that require the use of a mains lead, then disregard this request :)
Marco.
Frank, I think Barrys point was that there is no difference between mains cables they either pass the current without melting and burning down your house- or they do not. Shielding can only help, it cannot hurt, though in all likelyhood it will do nothing.
An 'average' amplifier psu and circuit will have better than 80db PSRR, you'd need some really 'special' RFI modulating the incoming AC to be audible. I'm all about low resistance though and a good earth path.
Simon, I agree with both you and Barry that the whole purpose of a mains lead is to go from the wall socket to your hi-fi without spilling any on the carpet :eyebrows: But, there is more to the scenario than just that criteria. All of you have ignored the second part of my initial posting which says that a "sooper dooper" mains cable is merely LESS IMPERFECT that the poor quality moulded ones of indeterminate parentage that are generally being used by those who only see the wire as a conveyancer of electricity.
The incoming loop resistance circuitry is only ever as good as it's weakest link and if that one metre of poor quality wire happens to be the weakest link in the circuit, then taking that out and replacing it with a "sooper dooper" power cord will yield a perceived 'improvement' in sound quality, not because it has some sort of magic properties, but because it is LESS IMPERFECT than the cable it has replaced. In actual fact it is the fuse in the plug and/or the component's internal fusing arrangements that IS the weakest link in the loop circuit (It is by design intended to be for safety reasons) but let's not go there shall we? This also makes sense when folks ask the same old perennial question "How can a one metre length of wire make a difference when there are miles and miles of cables from the power station?" If those miles and miles of cable as thick as your torso are bottlenecked into a piece of wire no thicker than a human hair, then effectively that is as thick as the wire ever is.
The second part of the conundrum is, "If the power supply within the component is "properly designed" then an aftermarket power cord will make no difference at all" but nobody yet has proved to me or anyone else that this is fact. Sure, it will convert AC into DC and have a given power delivery capability for a given load, but those calculations and implementations are based upon static measurements and not under real time dynamic conditions.
The third part of the conundrum is how can a sooper dooper power cord ALONE reduce the noise floor of a hi-fi system, or for that matter a television too? I think I know the answer but that is based upon empirical evidence alone so I don't intend to start another sub-sub-sub debate :lol:
For the record Richard bought 2 x DIY mains lead sets costing £10 each :)
Let's take a closer look at hi-fi and the "mains"
Where do you live, that can have an effect on how good the mains entering your house is.
If you live in an older house the mains wiring will have degraded over time, if you live in a flat they all share the same mains feed etc, etc.
Each piece of equipment is designed differently so all will behave differently depending on if the designer cares about mains inside the unit or has the money available to improve internal filtering/regulation etc.
Then we all have different tastes in music and want to hear different things when we listen, a mains lead may alter the sound for some but not for the better in their system, another person listening to the same system may like the difference.
Then there are the "ears", have you had yours checked recently? I get mine done every few months! Surprising what a fine jet of warm water can do for your hearing!
So to dismiss mains cables and cables in general as having no effect is based on that persons experience in their house in their system listening to their music, luckily these people for me are in a minority, nothing wrong with speaking or typing your opinion on any subject, mains seems to be the most contentious subject in hifi and cables in general, have to go now as I have cables to assemble and test.
Let's take a closer look at hi-fi and the "mains"
Where do you live, that can have an effect on how good the mains entering your house is.
If you live in an older house the mains wiring will have degraded over time, if you live in a flat they all share the same mains feed etc, etc.
That may well be true - but changing the metre of cable that runs to your gear isn't going to alter any of that.
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 08:35
Marco
As Dave has pointed out they were the bargains to which my attention was drawn in France (although I think with a bit of extra length to bypass the multi-way, and shipping they weighed in at a wallet-sapping £30.55). Since they are "DIY" - I wouldn't presume to return them for a refund - I will simply relish their aesthetic beauty.
If, and I feel this coming on, there is a suggestion that these leads are sold only for their appearance, and aren't the real deal which provokes the phone calls of rapture
1) I am prepared to buy any cables on the basis of the very reasonable, proper and fair returns policy offered by Dave for a further trial - and keep them if I hear a difference
2) Isn't that a little bit naughty? I was directed to them because of a reference to the price of mains cables on Gordons thread, and I conceded that this was indeed a very reasonable price for the purpose of an experiment. Moreover, on the bumf on the web page it says "MCRU have compiled a true audiophile grade DIY mains power lead set. Featuring quality german made 3 core shielded power cable using 2.5mm conductors and a martin kaiser german IEC connector, finally our reference mains plug with silver plated fuse, fits the LAPP cable perfectly... True audiophile quality for £10.00!" Have I been sold a pup ?:scratch:
My other kit is Cambridge CD5 (as transport) and DaCapo 22 bit (without the DC power supply - but I could rig it up to run off batteries at a pinch). There is also the AV system, with its tiresome hum problem, but I will unplug the input lead from that to eliminate any effect, and switch off (remove plugs from wall) on all other AV stuff (Tv, sky box, blue ray etc)
But if I can't hear a difference, and you can, then either you are delusional, or there is a real difference and I may benefit from that in the same way I can't hear harmonics directly, but miss them when they are gone. So I'd like you to prove to both of us you can hear it with a simple blind demo. Or anybody else closer to Kent can prove it the same way. Cos if it works - I want some. ;)
As a side note - regarding my point about physics, and your comment on it, (hoping I am not doing you a shocking injustice here) neither of us really understand this stuff. We are dependant on faith - believing people we trust to properly understand it, and attempting to grasp something of the point if they are nice enough to explain it in simple language. But it is interesting to note on these threads, that everyone with an apparant genuine understanding of the techie bits, lines up on the side of bunkum. :scratch:
I don't think this means they are insensitive souls incapable of appreciating the subtleties of more artistic types. I think it is more suggestive of well documented psychological phenomena on the part of the faithful.
But I repeat. I am not knocking. If its real - I want a piece of the action. I don't want to be told I'm not good enough and will have to go without. And if its real - even if I can't hear it, even if we can't scientifically support it, someone can demonstrate it. And if nobody can demonstrate it, we can all draw our own (probably still very different) conclusions. :champagne:
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 08:46
Simon, I agree with both you and Barry that the whole purpose of a mains lead is to go from the wall socket to your hi-fi without spilling any on the carpet :eyebrows: But, there is more to the scenario than just that criteria. All of you have ignored the second part of my initial posting which says that a "sooper dooper" mains cable is merely LESS IMPERFECT that the poor quality moulded ones of indeterminate parentage that are generally being used by those who only see the wire as a conveyancer of electricity.
The incoming loop resistance circuitry is only ever as good as it's weakest link and if that one metre of poor quality wire happens to be the weakest link in the circuit, then taking that out and replacing it with a "sooper dooper" power cord will yield a perceived 'improvement' in sound quality, not because it has some sort of magic properties, but because it is LESS IMPERFECT than the cable it has replaced. In actual fact it is the fuse in the plug and/or the component's internal fusing arrangements that IS the weakest link in the loop circuit (It is by design intended to be for safety reasons) but let's not go there shall we? This also makes sense when folks ask the same old perennial question "How can a one metre length of wire make a difference when there are miles and miles of cables from the power station?" If those miles and miles of cable as thick as your torso are bottlenecked into a piece of wire no thicker than a human hair, then effectively that is as thick as the wire ever is.
The second part of the conundrum is, "If the power supply within the component is "properly designed" then an aftermarket power cord will make no difference at all" but nobody yet has proved to me or anyone else that this is fact. Sure, it will convert AC into DC and have a given power delivery capability for a given load, but those calculations and implementations are based upon static measurements and not under real time dynamic conditions.
The third part of the conundrum is how can a sooper dooper power cord ALONE reduce the noise floor of a hi-fi system, or for that matter a television too? I think I know the answer but that is based upon empirical evidence alone so I don't intend to start another sub-sub-sub debate :lol:
I think there is possibly something in this - but I feel it comes under my heading of "faulty wiring" in earlier discussions. If I wire up the 3 pin plug without doing up the screws on the terminal pins, and wiggle the wire, I will hear an effect. So "mains cables can affect the sound produced by hifi". But only because they are faulty. Fat wires - maybe, but whilst acknowledging the limitations of my technical knowledge, I have a feeling its got to be really feeble wire on the preamp to make a difference.
Interestingly, on a forum I was oblivious to until Marco banned reference to it so forcefully recently (one day over a beer perhaps I'll learn why) there was much talk of this IEE joint being the weak link, and at least in principle, that seems possible. But again - really comes under the heading of "faulty". I don't need cable like steel girders attached to the "proper" iee to fix a faulty joint.
Oh its going to be an exciting weekend in this house :)
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 08:49
That may well be true - but changing the metre of cable that runs to your gear isn't going to alter any of that.
Yup.
And to that I would just repeat I have NOT yet dismissed this. Since NOBODY has volunteered to demonstrate the effect and PROVE they can hear it, I am trying it for myself before making a preliminary statement of MY position on it.
Phew :cool:
Spectral Morn
06-09-2013, 08:55
Just completed the listening part of a review of some modestly priced mains cables - it will be published once maintenance on AIHFA is completed - and once again the improvement mainsleads can make was very evident. Rather than comparing to dearer reference cables I compared to bog standard supplied with equipment mainscables from which these cables would be bought as an upgrade and :eek: what a difference was heard.
Its good to go back to foundational experiences from time to time, and re-experiencing what I first did many years ago - back then with Kimber Power Kords - was once again a pretty sobering experience. I can't offer any explanation as to why better constructed, plugs, plating and material make such a difference - would love to see tech specs measurements - but my ears and repeated listening confirmed what I heard each time and the improvement was not subtle.
Frankly anyone using bog standard cabling is missing out on what their kit can really do - closed mind/ears = major performance drop and loss in musical enjoyment in my repeated listening experience.
Regards Neil
brian2957
06-09-2013, 09:05
Couldn't have put it any better myself Neil . That's been my own experience over the years regarding mains cables.
As Dave has pointed out they were the bargains to which my attention was drawn in France (although I think with a bit of extra length to bypass the multi-way, and shipping they weighed in at a wallet-sapping £30.55). Since they are "DIY" - I wouldn't presume to return them for a refund - I will simply relish their aesthetic beauty.
Ah, all is now clear. I hope that they do provide an audible improvement over what you're using now - which is what, incidentally? :)
However, these are clearly fairly basic cables, so I wouldn't expect 'miracles', or indeed to hear the level of sonic improvement I get from using David's 'Ultimates', at (I forget now) £700 a pop? Those contain all manner of things, from the type of copper used in the cable itself, to the specific design of the Furutech IEC connector and mains plug, none of which applies to the cables you've bought, therefore I would defintely bear that in mind!
My other kit is Cambridge CD5 (as transport) and DaCapo 22 bit (without the DC power supply - but I could rig it up to run off batteries at a pinch). There is also the AV system, with its tiresome hum problem, but I will unplug the input lead from that to eliminate any effect, and switch off (remove plugs from wall) on all other AV stuff (Tv, sky box, blue ray etc)
Ok, all I would say is to put the new mains cables on whatever powers your two main sources, therefore perhaps the PSU for your T/T and the CD5. However, experimenting is the key, in order to find where the cables have most effect, if any.
But if I can't hear a difference, and you can, then either you are delusional, or there is a real difference and I may benefit from that in the same way I can't hear harmonics directly, but miss them when they are gone. So I'd like you to prove to both of us you can hear it with a simple blind demo. Or anybody else closer to Kent can prove it the same way. Cos if it works - I want some.
Lol! I'll bear that in mind, but it's a bit of trek to Kent from Wrexham!! However, I would also extend you an invite to come here and conduct the same test :)
But I repeat. I am not knocking. If its real - I want a piece of the action. I don't want to be told I'm not good enough and will have to go without. And if its real - even if I can't hear it, even if we can't scientifically support it, someone can demonstrate it. And if nobody can demonstrate it, we can all draw our own (probably still very different) conclusions. :champagne:
Sounds fine, but I think you're getting a bit too hung up on the 'if I'm not good enough and will have to go without' factor. Just try it - if it works, it works, if not, then it's no biggie. At least you'll be able to comment in future from a position of having had the practical experience of trying some 'exotic' mains cables, and you can simply go back to enjoying your music, smug in the knowledge that, in terms of them making no difference, you were 'right'! ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 09:15
Sorry, Geoff, that's a bad example.
Good valve amps should ALWAYS test well, in terms of the usual electrical parameters (and consequently sound good), as I'm sure all the resident valve amplifier designers here will tell you. Anthony TD and Nick Gorham, for example, would never allow such amps to leave their test bench and go into production otherwise! ;)
If you're talking purely about certain aspects of distortion, in comparison with that of solid-state amplifiers, then that's a different matter :)
Marco.
Ah. What fun. Firstly, let me say I like valve amps. I am playing with a valve headphone amp (mainly I confess to try to get above a U grade on Ladybird electronics - nobody tries to teach about flip-flops, multi-stable vibrators, or NAND gates in valve electronic courses (they're not what you imagine Effem - we're not on lady parts - or even related accessories :)) I also have a Fender Blues Junior, and not for the "crunch" from over-driving amps, but for the sweetness from the clean channel.
Two issues -
1) The sound doesn't always go with the measurements. My mate from PT days, showing a glimmer of interest in having another pop at designing a domestic audio amp, commented that he can find no correlation between measurable criteria for amps and percieved sound quality (and he has a hifi mag collection going back to the flood). Except one - $$$$$$$$$$
2) Same mate produced an amp with dialable even order harmonic distortion. you could dial in sweetness. Now - there is a lot of debate about why valves sound good, and whether distortion is meaningful - but they are a bit prone. THD on my Fender Junior is 5%. No decimals in there chaps. 5%
Which brings me onto a weeny disagreement I had with RFFC in private regarding this mates objective to design out distortion. It is not that no distortion means a great amp - there are manifestly too many examples of 70's SS amps which measure well on THD and sound grim, and valve amps which measure less well and sound LOVERLEY .
No - the issue is that distortion is just that. Never a good thing. Not by the definition of HiFi Marco and I agreed on when I joined this forum. By definition distortion means "less than perfect fidelity". It means the original signal we are trying to reproduce, our goal of a straight wire with gain, has failed. We have a distorted copy of the original.
No distortion is not a recipe for good amplifier design - well not a guarantee of success. But any distortion is a compromise of the basic goal.
And - whilst accepting everyones right to subjectively like what they like - often, such as in the case of the "sweetness" dial on that amp, that is nothing to do with Hi FIDELITY
Did I mention the boy has an irritating habit of then producing 1st class SS designs which sound "valvey". And is incapable of explaining why - just grins like a chimp :doh:
That may well be true - but changing the metre of cable that runs to your gear isn't going to alter any of that.
It might, if it could be proven that said metre of cable (taking into consideration also the effect of the plugs used), and the design of the cable itself, helped in some way to decouple equipment from the detrimental sonic effects of what David was describing.
I'm also convinced that reducing the effects of RFI, for example, when cables are produced in a 'twisted' internal wiring construction, is partly the responsible for why mains cables, designed for hi-fi purposes, seem to have a positive sonic effect on the equipment that they're connected to.
Furthermore, in terms of decoupling, might the sonic benefits of some of the more 'exotic' cables, with expensive connectors and plugs, which have been engineered to work in a specific way, in terms of reducing the ingress to equipment of harmful vibration, via a component's IEC inlet, be partly responsible for some of the sonic benefits heard?
It could be that the plugs themselves, in some situations, are having more of an effect on proceedings than the cable...
I've no idea - I'm just throwing some stuff into the pot, as it were, for debate. However, I do feel that we need to think a little more laterally/left-field about this whole matter, and not just about the basic electrical effects (or defining the laws of physics in such a 'black and white' way), before we're ever likely to get closer to a proper explanation of what is actually going on.
Marco.
realysm42
06-09-2013, 09:35
I don't know why I click threads like this anymore.
Yet I do :doh:
Ah. What fun. Firstly, let me say I like valve amps. I am playing with a valve headphone amp (mainly I confess to try to get above a U grade on Ladybird electronics - nobody tries to teach about flip-flops, multi-stable vibrators, or NAND gates in valve electronic courses (they're not what you imagine Effem - we're not on lady parts - or even related accessories :)) I also have a Fender Blues Junior, and not for the "crunch" from over-driving amps, but for the sweetness from the clean channel.
Two issues -
1) The sound doesn't always go with the measurements. My mate from PT days, showing a glimmer of interest in having another pop at designing a domestic audio amp, commented that he can find no correlation between measurable criteria for amps and percieved sound quality (and he has a hifi mag collection going back to the flood). Except one - $$$$$$$$$$
2) Same mate produced an amp with dialable even order harmonic distortion. you could dial in sweetness. Now - there is a lot of debate about why valves sound good, and whether distortion is meaningful - but they are a bit prone. THD on my Fender Junior is 5%. No decimals in there chaps. 5%
Which brings me onto a weeny disagreement I had with RFFC in private regarding this mates objective to design out distortion. It is not that no distortion means a great amp - there are manifestly too many examples of 70's SS amps which measure well on THD and sound grim, and valve amps which measure less well and sound LOVERLEY .
No - the issue is that distortion is just that. Never a good thing. Not by the definition of HiFi Marco and I agreed on when I joined this forum. By definition distortion means "less than perfect fidelity". It means the original signal we are trying to reproduce, our goal of a straight wire with gain, has failed. We have a distorted copy of the original.
No distortion is not a recipe for good amplifier design - well not a guarantee of success. But any distortion is a compromise of the basic goal.
And - whilst accepting everyones right to subjectively like what they like - often, such as in the case of the "sweetness" dial on that amp, that is nothing to do with Hi FIDELITY
Did I mention the boy has an irritating habit of then producing 1st class SS designs which sound "valvey". And is incapable of explaining why - just grins like a chimp :doh:
Hi Richard,
I'm not getting into that (rather in-depth) subject here, mate. If you want to discuss valve amps, start a separate thread in Blank Canvas :)
I don't know why I click threads like this anymore.
Yet I do :doh:
:LOL:
+1
I understand!
The human instinct to watch a train wreck, even better in slowmotion.:rolleyes:
All I see, chaps, is a friendly debate taking place, so what exactly is the problem? :scratch:
Marco.
Just completed the listening part of a review of some modestly priced mains cables - it will be published once maintenance on AIHFA is completed - and once again the improvement mainsleads can make was very evident. Rather than comparing to dearer reference cables I compared to bog standard supplied with equipment mainscables from which these cables would be bought as an upgrade and :eek: what a difference was heard.
Its good to go back to foundational experiences from time to time, and re-experiencing what I first did many years ago - back then with Kimber Power Kords - was once again a pretty sobering experience. I can't offer any explanation as to why better constructed, plugs, plating and material make such a difference - would love to see tech specs measurements - but my ears and repeated listening confirmed what I heard each time and the improvement was not subtle.
Frankly anyone using bog standard cabling is missing out on what their kit can really do - closed mind/ears = major performance drop and loss in musical enjoyment in my repeated listening experience.
Regards Neil
Well there's 'bog standard' cabling and there's bog standard cabling! Depend on what you are referring to as not all bog standard cables are made the same. If you are using a 3amp fused 0.75mm conductor IEC cable on a power amp with decent power output then the cable may make a difference. An amp with a power output of say 50W could pulse the mains with current spikes of 21amp into a 4 ohm load at full output depending on the design however, a CD player would never draw as much current. Replace it with a heavy duty bog standard mains lead with 13amp fuse and 1.5mm conductors then the results may well be very different for the power amp but make no difference to the CD player.
walpurgis
06-09-2013, 10:09
I could always start another thread about 'cable directionality', that should keep us going until Christmas! :eyebrows:
StanleyB
06-09-2013, 10:11
Some people cling on to the laws of physics as the definitive answer. But the laws of physics cannot explain ball lightning, amounts many other phenomena. So clutching at straws is perhaps the answer for those souls.
StanleyB
06-09-2013, 10:13
I could always start another thread about 'cable directionality', that should keep us going until Christmas! :eyebrows:
Have you tried plugging a USB A to B lead with the B side into a PC? Directionality is critical.
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 10:15
I could always start another thread about 'cable directionality', that should keep us going until Christmas! :eyebrows:
Oh no - I need a sugar intake. There are presumably such threads if I look for them. I'm afraid I wore myself out asking in which direction an AC current flows years ago :mental:
walpurgis
06-09-2013, 10:26
Have you tried plugging a USB A to B lead with the B side into a PC? Directionality is critical.
Presumably due to non mirror image pin/contact arrangements?
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 10:30
Some people cling on to the laws of physics as the definitive answer. But the laws of physics cannot explain ball lightning, amounts many other phenomena. So clutching at straws is perhaps the answer for those souls.
That's not strictly true. There are dozens of possible explanations for ball lightening, all of which are within the laws of physics. The phenomena remains unexplained - conclusively, but there are hypotheses within the accepted laws of physics which explain how it could arise. The phenomena is also not unequivocably demonstrated to exist - it is a rare phenomena not directly observed by scientists. That doesnt mean reported sightings are untrue, but that is a possibility.
It is very different to have something like ball lightening which is unexplained, but for which possible explanations exist WHICH ARE WITHIN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS, and to claim that something like mains cables work and rely on explanations which contradict or just ignore the laws of physics.
What with solder being melted by 12 watts of current in a joint, and Dysons hoover defying physics, I'm never quite sure whether you are teasing me or for real. I can only say, if it's teasing I apologise for missing the subtlety of the humour. For a designer of product you seem to have a curious affinity for magic and mystery. Reminds me of the magic wand at my BNI meetings - a tale I must tell on this thread when I next get back.
StanleyB
06-09-2013, 10:43
Presumably due to non mirror image pin/contact arrangements?
Indeed. So it is critical.
But joking aside, I have heard and read so many arguments about mains leads, directional leads, etc. that I have stopped listening. When I was a repair engineer I came across so many faults and solutions with a wide range of components, which made me realize that facts are better than physics.
When I was designing AV and RF cables I remember when people were telling me that air spaced satellite cables were just as good as foam filled cables for digital transmission, even though my own test results disproved those claims. Guess what the market uses now.
It is very different to have something like ball lightening which is unexplained, but for which possible explanations exist WHICH ARE WITHIN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS, and to claim that something like mains cables work and rely on explanations which contradict or just ignore the laws of physics.
Or it could instead be that nothing, in terms of the laws of physics, is *actually* being contradicted or ignored, and that we just don't understand fully yet what is happening (perhaps due to as of yet unexplained phenomena) when sonic differences with mains cables are claimed by those who use them..........
It could also be that, in some instances those differences are being imagined, but I don't accept that as being an automatic or universal explanation of the phenomenon.
In any case, Richard, whilst I'm not saying you are wrong, you cannot irrefutably disprove the above, so either we make the decision now to 'agree to disagree', and talk about something else, or we continue debating this matter to infinity, with all of us losing the will to live :eek: :doh:
I strongly suggest for the sake of my sanity and that of others here, that you opt for the former, and concentrate instead on other aspects of the discussion, leaving 'the laws of physics', as you interpret them, well out of it, otherwise the discussion is leading to a pointless dead end.
Marco.
P.S You used to attend BNI meetings? So did I! :)
I could always start another thread about 'cable directionality', that should keep us going until Christmas! :eyebrows:
:lol:
Im a big fan of your idea on gravity enhanced electron flow!
;)
Who can guess the price of this baby?
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/pics/nordost_odin_pc.jpg
twickers
06-09-2013, 10:55
£1900??
Who can guess the price of this baby?
What relevance does that have, daftee?
Personally, I wouldn't 'soil' my system with anything from Nordost!!
Marco.
Who can guess the price of this baby?
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/pics/nordost_odin_pc.jpg
I don't know, but does it sound especially natural with woodwind instruments due to that block? :)
realysm42
06-09-2013, 11:02
£6,000?
I don't know, but does it sound especially natural with woodwind instruments due to that block? :)
Don't diss da block, man - dat's where the 'special weevils' live... :D
Marco.
What relevance does that have, daftee?
Personally, I wouldn't 'soil' my system with anything from Nordost!!
Marco.
it shows how far people go to get their mains leads sorted (or not) as the case may be!
it costs more than a small car
No, you mean how far DAFTEES will go to get their HEADS sorted... :lol:
I doubt it'll be any better than your 'Ultimates', and even if it is, any small improvement would not justify the HUGE difference in cost. You know where I stand, in terms of SPPV!! ;)
Marco.
£15,000 ? think it shows there are plenty of nutters in the world.
That piece of wood must of cost anything upto a pound.
£15k - is that the actual price of it? :lol: :lol:
Marco.
anthonyTD
06-09-2013, 11:57
I am a great believer in the term "everything can be explained if we know how to test for it"
There is in my opinion no magic going on with cables or any other part of the hi fi chain, every perceived difference can be explained, if the difference is indeed real, once difference has been established as being noticeable by more than one person, [without any agenda] then in my opinion there is justification for looking further into things, and for coming up with logical ideas that can explain a large percentage of the phenomena using current understanding. Then there is the percentage that is left unexplained, this is my point, there is i feel a percentage that cannot be explained due to things we do not yet fully understand, but,like anything, given time we will get there, but until then, the majority will have to rely on those that make their living out of "knowing" more about how cables and power supplies work than the rest of us.:rolleyes:
There are a few who have contributed here who's explanations and opinions i can whole heartedly relate to, Frank, i think you have hit the nail on the head with most of what you have stated about the basic differences in mains supply impedances, and why in certain circumstances a better, higher current capable cable can make the perceived difference, however, in my own system, i have found that after using a better quality cable than standard as a must,[higher current capable, and better material etc] the biggest difference has been in plug, or termination changes, this goes for interconnects too...
My advice would be, in most cases, any piece of audio kit will benefit from using a higher grade mains cable and plugs/connector than standard, how much of a difference will depend on how much the original cable and connectors were hindering the situation, but, once past a particular price point, [and this goes for every part and component in the audio replay chain] you are into the realms of diminishing returns.
A...
There are a few who have contributed here who's explanations and opinions i can whole heartedly relate to, Frank, i think you have hit the nail on the head with most of what you have stated about the basic differences in mains supply impedances, and why in certain circumstances a better, higher current capable cable can make the perceived difference, however, in my own system, i have found that after using a better quality cable than standard as a must,[higher current capable, and better material etc] the biggest difference has been in plug, or termination changes, this goes for interconnects too...
My advice would be, in most cases, any piece of audio kit will benefit from using a higher grade mains cable and plugs/connector than standard, how much of a difference will depend on how much the original cable and connectors were hindering the situation, but, once past a particular price point, [and this goes for every part and component in the audio replay chain] you are into the realms of diminishing returns.
A...
You and I are both right in that when I say "cables" it naturally includes all components within the cable assembly itself as in plugs, solder, cleanliness of connections and how tight any screws are. All of those factors add up to a whole and if for example a perfect solder joint reduces resistance by a tiny fraction of an Ohm then there will be audible benefits - however small.
http://www.audiofederation.com/dealership/prices/nordost/
Jumper cables for $10,000....nice.
You and I are both right in that when I say "cables" it naturally includes all components within the cable assembly itself as in plugs, solder, cleanliness of connections and how tight any screws are. All of those factors add up to a whole and if for example a perfect solder joint reduces resistance by a tiny fraction of an Ohm then there will be audible benefits - however small.
I agree, which is why I mentioned plugs earlier. However, Frank, I guess that some may dispute the latter as being audible on its own.
For me, the significant thing is the cumulative sonic effect of judiciously attending to ALL aspects of how a hi-fi system receives power from the mains supply (from mains leads and plugs to mains regeneration), which when done, adds up to some genuine MAJOR differences, in terms of how accurately a hi-fi system resolves and reproduces recorded music.
The idea that all one has to do is plug one's system into the raw mains supply, using a series of £2 kettle leads, and thus 'all is sonically optimised' is, quite frankly, nothing other than wishful thinking - especially when the mains supply today (with the plethora of computers and mobile phones in use, etc) is more polluted than ever! ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
06-09-2013, 12:31
Has AC mains got a resistance? I was under the impression that it was an impedance and a reactance. The last time I tried to read the resistance of a mains supply the multimeter blew up.
I am a great believer in the term "everything can be explained if we know how to test for it"
:exactly:
Trouble is, we don't currently know how to test for everything in audio that we can genuinely hear, to the extent that the results of any test are irrefutable - and so that's where the problems begin...... :rolleyes:
Marco.
It could be that the plugs themselves, in some situations, are having more of an effect on proceedings than the cable...
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the plugs (or at least the connections) were the primary reason why mains cables performed differently. I think the plugs make more difference in interconects than the actual cable does. But I think the primary reason is simply down to how tight the connection is rather than any of the other suggestions below:
...helped in some way to decouple equipment from the detrimental sonic effects...
Furthermore, in terms of decoupling, might the sonic benefits of some of the more 'exotic' cables, with expensive connectors and plugs, which have been engineered to work in a specific way, in terms of reducing the ingress to equipment of harmful vibration, via a component's IEC inlet, be partly responsible for some of the sonic benefits heard?
In fact, a cable is a very poor transducer of mechanical vibration as it is very well damped.
In fact, a cable is a very poor transducer of mechanical vibration as it is very well damped.
...or so the theory goes in the applications where it was tested! ;)
Marco.
0.3 Ohm? Which BOOK did you read that from?
Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable makes zero sound difference, nothing at all.
OOPS! Have I upset the "man love" contingent by daring to mention interesting lady parts? :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Well there is this: http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_Z.html. I have measured the source impedance at two sockets on the ring main in my house: 0.30 Ohm at a socket near the centre of the ring, and 0.25 Ohm at a socket nearer to the meter. When I mentioned these figures to a fellow member who works for the National Grid, I was told they were "good".
Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable can make a difference if you live in a noisy RFI environment.
I could quite happily talk about "interesting lady parts" with you - but AoS is not a suitable forum for such discussion. :lol:
Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable can make a difference if you live in a noisy RFI environment.
I have yet to witness that myself Barry, but in my view RFI would have to be at the level where your tooth fillings start heating up before it could induce itself INTO a mains cable. Now if we are talking about low level RFI into a high sensitivity area like a phono stage then that I can readily accept as a sound case for shielding.
I could quite happily talk about "interesting lady parts" with you - but AoS is not a suitable forum for such discussion. :lol:
I dunno, some members on this forum go on endlessly about it :lol:
Some figures for you to mull over:
Resistance of a 13A BS1363 fuse: 0.004 Ohm
Loop resistance of 0.75mm2 cable (6A rating): 0.052 Ohm/m
Loop resistance of 1.00mm2 cable (10A rating) 0.039 Ohm/m
Loop resistance of 1.25mm2 cable (13A rating) 0.033 Ohm/m
Loop resistance of 1.50mm2 cable (16A rating) 0.027 Ohm/m
So, a 'bog standard' kettle lead will have a loop resistance of 0.037 Ohm and will thus increase the mains source impedance by that amount, whereas a 'super-dooper' lead using Lapp cable will have a loop resistance of 0.031 Ohm.
I dunno, some members on this forum go on endlessly about it
Can I bagsie first to mention 'fur burgers'? :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
So, a 'bog standard' kettle lead will have a loop resistance of 0.037 Ohm and will thus increase the mains source impedance by that amount, whereas a 'super-dooper' lead using Lapp cable will have a loop resistance of 0.031 Ohm.
Is there an indisputable reason why that difference of 0.006 Ohm wouldn't be audible to some ears and in some systems, especially when the effect is multiplied by the number of 'super-dooper' mains leads used in a given system? :)
Marco.
Is there an indisputable reason why that difference of 0.006 Ohm wouldn't be audible to some ears and in some systems? :)
Marco.
Not indisputable but unlikely, given that the source impedance at the wall socket is some 50x greater.
Actually, the point I was trying to make was to put the "bottlenecking" effect of the fuse into context. The resistance of a 13A fuse is 1/7th of that of the cable it's protecting.
Can I bagsie first to mention 'fur burgers'? :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Shouldn't this be posted in "The Din-Dins" thread?
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 13:26
Oh boy the fun you miss when you are away from here. Mind - I have been coaching a truly lovely 23 year old (recently married) blond through the tax paper of her legal executive exams as a favour for a friend, so it had its compensations. :wowzer:
Marco - I don't think we need to agree to disagree yet. I haven't disagreed with you yet. I can understand why many might think that my planned test this weekend is a done deal, and I am heavily biased to accepting only one answer - but I may yet shock you. As noted - if changing the mains cable does make a difference I can hear, I shall be onto my mates for an explanation, and expect that not to contradict the laws of physics.
And it won't be the first time I have been back to the boys, with "I know you said that, but I can hear".... :ner:
If I don't hear a difference, I am up for a demo from anyone that they can, and may even travel to Wrexham for the privilige (although not this month for sure).
As stated before, I can't comment on your "possibly undiscovered physics" because I have such a feeble understanding, and I can't keep bugging my mates who have day jobs. Poor connections certainly offer an explanation for a real effect, but only merit making decent connections, not spending a fortune on cable. I'll wait for the weekend and see what the world looks like. I might even solder everything up (kidding Stan - I'll crimp it). ;)
Not indisputable but unlikely, given that the source impedance at the wall socket is some 50x greater.
Sure, but the trouble is how do you define and/or indisputably prove "unlikely"? ;)
Actually, the point I was trying to make was to put the "bottlenecking" effect of the fuse into context. The resistance of a 13A fuse is 1/7th of that of the cable it's protecting.
Sure, but again I think it's more sensible to look at the cumulative effect of these things, throughout a system, than on analysing it individually. Regardless, though, we're still in the lap of the Gods, as to whether any REAL differences can currently be irrefutably confirmed or dismissed, which is why these types of discussions are so, erm, 'illuminating'!!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 13:32
Can I bagsie first to mention 'fur burgers'? :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'm glad I started this thread with "impossible to hijack" :) Reminds me of another work anecdote - absolutely genuinely true story. I worked with another guy of about my age, who was incredibly "nice" - as in not rude, cynical, and not lavatorial in his humour like me, and a couple of secretaries. One Chris was in her mid 50's (we were 30) 5foot minus a bit, spherical, with huge impact protection cushions fitted on the forward structure. And always giggling. We had ordered coffee for a meeting, and she came in with a couple of pyrex vessels of coffee, held chest high in front of her, to an important meeting at which we were all parched.
"I've been looking forward to seeing those jugs all day" was my mates priceless comment :lol:
Shouldn't this be posted in "The Din-Dins" thread?
Only if the 'burgers' in question are free from dandruff!! :lol:
Marco.
...or so the theory goes in the applications where it was tested! ;)
Marco.
Well, if I wanted to make a system to effectively transmit vibration I would make it stiff - I certainly wouldn't use a piece of speaker, interconnect, or mains cable - particularly if it is lying on a large piece of damping material, i.e. the carpet..
I’m not saying cables sound the same, but I am saying that if they do it isn’t because of some of the spurious suggestions put forward by some manufacturers. I see that carbon fibre is in vogue for wrapping some mains, IEC and RCA plugs – I have used carbon fibre myself – largely for the high stiffness to mass ratio it has. It doesn’t have much of a damping effect though and a plug is already a pretty inert structure. High mass is hardly an issue with plugs either – not compared to what they are connected to.
Dave, no sir; are they headed for my work place?
Going to plug one into your monitor for better image quality? :D
realysm42
06-09-2013, 14:44
Going to plug one into your monitor for better image quality? :D
I'm hoping to upgrade my cup of tea :)
Well, if I wanted to make a system to effectively transmit vibration I would make it stiff...
...but some mains cables, interconnects and speakers cables ARE stiff - especially if solid-core cable is used, so what then?
Furthermore, my mains leads, which feature 2.6mm solid-core, solid-copper conductors, wrapped in probably the same thickness again of insulation and sheathing, which cumulatively forms a cable that is as stiff as a donkey's 'walloper', yet is the best performing mains lead I've ever used, so something must be making it so, aside from my 'imagination'... ;)
I’m not saying cables sound the same, but I am saying that if they do it isn’t because of some of the spurious suggestions put forward by some manufacturers. I see that carbon fibre is in vogue for wrapping some mains, IEC and RCA plugs – I have used carbon fibre myself – largely for the high stiffness to mass ratio it has. It doesn’t have much of a damping effect though and a plug is already a pretty inert structure.
"Spurious suggestions" by manufacturers or not, again I can distinctly hear the difference between, say, an entry-level Furutech IEC connector and the FI-50s (fitted with carbon-fibre strips on the connector's outer shell), I use, which you're referring to, as I've compared two identical Furukawa-based mains cables, where the only difference was the type of Furutech plugs used on them, and the difference sonically was admittedly subtle, but still obvious enough for me to warrant paying the extra for the 'fancier' plugs.
Thing is, if you dismantle a Furutech FI-50 IEC plug, you'll see that there's a fair bit of decoupling going on inside, in an effort to prevent vibration being transmitted into equipment, similar to what Naim have done with their specialist mains leads, to the extent that they designed their own IEC socket and 13A plug. The design principles are very similar with the Furutech products. I still remember the day I attended the demo in the Naim room of their new mains leads, when they were first introduced, and the sonic improvement I heard that day was quite staggering! Ditto now with the 'Ultimates' I use :)
High mass is hardly an issue with plugs either – not compared to what they are connected to.
For me, any plugs that contain high amounts of metal in their construction (particularly of the magnetic variety) sound crap, and so I avoid them like the plague. Low-mass, the use of non-ferrous materials, together with solid-copper or solid-silver conductors are, IMO, the main reasons why, for example, Eichmann Bullet plugs (when used in analogue applications) work so well!
Marco.
Is there any amplifier/cd that comes supplied with a super duper cable?
There has to be a reason that as far as i know they all supply the bog standard kettle leads.
Surely some would supply better if they believed they was that much sonic gain to be achieved?
Don't believe it is all down to money either.
I am a great believer in the term "everything can be explained if we know how to test for it"
There is in my opinion no magic going on with cables or any other part of the hi fi chain, every perceived difference can be explained, if the difference is indeed real, once difference has been established as being noticeable by more than one person, [without any agenda] then in my opinion there is justification for looking further into things, and for coming up with logical ideas that can explain a large percentage of the phenomena using current understanding. Then there is the percentage that is left unexplained, this is my point, there is i feel a percentage that cannot be explained due to things we do not yet fully understand, but,like anything, given time we will get there, but until then, the majority will have to rely on those that make their living out of "knowing" more about how cables and power supplies work than the rest of us.:rolleyes:
There are a few who have contributed here who's explanations and opinions i can whole heartedly relate to, Frank, i think you have hit the nail on the head with most of what you have stated about the basic differences in mains supply impedances, and why in certain circumstances a better, higher current capable cable can make the perceived difference, however, in my own system, i have found that after using a better quality cable than standard as a must,[higher current capable, and better material etc] the biggest difference has been in plug, or termination changes, this goes for interconnects too...
My advice would be, in most cases, any piece of audio kit will benefit from using a higher grade mains cable and plugs/connector than standard, how much of a difference will depend on how much the original cable and connectors were hindering the situation, but, once past a particular price point, [and this goes for every part and component in the audio replay chain] you are into the realms of diminishing returns.
A...
I agree with this and with Frank's sentiments. I've done an awful lot of design and testing (for other people as well as for myself) on cable design and with audio, my own views/findings are that to a finite extent (beyond which it is either marketing hyperbole or diminishing returns) where signal cables are concerned better quality components, sensible geometry and high quality terminations matter. Once a system's been fettled to a point where differences are discernible (i.e. revealing) then using high grade well engineered connectors which make good electrical contact, and which have been well jointed to the cable is generally makes noticeable step improvement given that a good quality cable is used in the first place. the one thing that I have no truck with is the use of unscreened twisted pairs in single ended circuits and I'd always advise the use of a good screened cable for better S/N performance. With mains cables, it's not as clear cut imho. Short of using the correct current rating and ensuring that a cable is fused, and that the plug makes decent contact, I have rarely found that fancy mains cables make anywhere near as much difference as high quality interconnect cables which is why I don't offer them despite their popularity but then that's just my opinion. There may be a tiny proportion of very wealthy people who are willing to part with the same money as a small family car for a mains cable and that's up to them but they're only fooling themselves.
Gordon Steadman
06-09-2013, 15:27
Out here in France, we don't have fuses in plugs but proper protection at the consumer unit. Also, every room is on a separate spur. The fuse has got to be the weakest link.
I went back to a standard cable as a check and it sounds exactly the same, so the previous slight change probably had more to do with the Quads coming back on song after a short period switched off.
I am very happy that I don't believe all the black magic stuff as it means I can afford more music, which, after all, is the reason behind it all. Not all of us have the dosh to waste. I still find it wierd that people use the expression 'fundamental change' when there can only be a subtle difference, if any, surely.
(I should just add that the cables I used were at the very cheapest end of MCRU's range. However, why sell the cheap ones at all if they make no difference??)
...but some mains cables, interconnects and speakers cables ARE stiff - especially if solid-core cable is used, so what then?
Some are - many are not. However, even the 'stiff ones are nothing like as stiff as the kind of structure I am thinking of. In addition, they are all heavily damped by the layers of insulation they use.
Furthermore, my mains leads, which feature 2.6mm solid-core, solid-copper conductors, wrapped in probably the same thickness again of insulation and sheathing, which cumulatively forms a cable that is as stiff as a donkey's 'walloper', yet is the best performing mains lead I've ever used, so something must be making it so, aside from my 'imagination'... ;)
Umm..I refer you to my comments regarding the quality of the connection.
"Spurious suggestions" by manufacturers or not, again I can distinctly hear the difference between, say, an entry-level Furutech IEC connector and the FI-50s (fitted with carbon-fibre strips on the connector's outer shell), I use, which you're referring to, as I've compared two identical Furukawa-based mains cables, where the only difference was the type of Furutech plugs used on them, and the difference sonically was admittedly subtle, but still obvious enough for me to warrant paying the extra for the 'fancier' plugs.
Did they use exactly the same terminal jaws - was the contact pressure the same between them?
Thing is, if you dismantle a Furutech FI-50 IEC plug, you'll see that there's a fair bit of decoupling going on inside, in an effort to prevent vibration being transmitted into equipment, similar to what Naim have done with their specialist mains leads, to the extent that they designed their own IEC socket and 13A plug. The design principles are very similar with the Furutech products. I still remember the day I attended the demo in the Naim room of their new mains leads, when they were first introduced, and the sonic improvement I heard that day was quite staggering! Ditto now with the 'Ultimates' I use :)
Naim told me that the point of their plugs was to ensure that each contact was able to make the best alignment with the pin and had nothing to do with the suppression of vibration - the Internet seems to have invented that idea. I've heard the Naim mains lead demo three times. One time I thought it made a small improvement, one time none and the last time it was worse.
...For me, any plugs that contain high amounts of metal in their construction (particularly of the magnetic variety) sound crap, and so I avoid them like the plague. Low-mass, the use of non-ferrous materials, together with solid-copper or solid-silver conductors are, IMO, the main reasons why, for example, Eichmann Bullet plugs (when used in analogue applications) work so well!
I can't think of any plugs that use ferrous metal (magnetic) for the body or shell. Even big bulky plugs are very low mass in the greater scheme of things (even compared to the attached cable in many cases). The I think the main reason WBT and Eichmann plugs work well has nothing to do with low mass etc. - it's simply that they make a tighter/firmer connection than most.
-------
A man wants to make a better flying machine and so observes all the birds around him. He notes that those that fly the best are white with orange legs. He therefore concludes that to improve his flying machine he should paint it white with an orange undercarriage...
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 15:47
I can't think of any plugs that use ferrous metal (magnetic) for the body or shell. Even big bulky plugs are very low mass in the greater scheme of things (even compared to the attached cable in many cases). The I think the main reason WBT and Eichmann plugs work well has nothing to do with low mass etc. - it's simply that they make a tighter/firmer connection than most.
-------
A man wants to make a better flying machine and so observes all the birds around him. He notes that those that fly the best are white with orange legs. He therefore concludes that to improve his flying machine he should paint it white with an orange undercarriage...
I've passed on the good news to Mrs S, that my interest in that "blog" means my already much lauded equipment can be improved by a tighter/firmer connection. You should have seen the grin on her face :)
I've passed on the good news to Mrs S, that my interest in that "blog" means my already much lauded equipment can be improved by a tighter/firmer connection. You should have seen the grin on her face :)
Hmmm! Would seem that Frank's thread drift suggestion has had some effect.
Spectral Morn
06-09-2013, 16:06
Well there's 'bog standard' cabling and there's bog standard cabling! Depend on what you are referring to as not all bog standard cables are made the same. If you are using a 3amp fused 0.75mm conductor IEC cable on a power amp with decent power output then the cable may make a difference. An amp with a power output of say 50W could pulse the mains with current spikes of 21amp into a 4 ohm load at full output depending on the design however, a CD player would never draw as much current. Replace it with a heavy duty bog standard mains lead with 13amp fuse and 1.5mm conductors then the results may well be very different for the power amp but make no difference to the CD player.
This was a CD transport and DAC and an improvement was heard on both.
Regards Neil
walpurgis
06-09-2013, 16:07
Can I bagsie first to mention 'fur burgers'? :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Isn't that something to do with cats? I'm sure I heard the word 'pussy' used. :)
Is there any amplifier/cd that comes supplied with a super duper cable? There has to be a reason that as far as i know they all supply the bog standard kettle leads. Surely some would supply better if they believed they was that much sonic gain to be achieved?
Well, I can think of plenty that come with no mains lead of any description, simply because the manufacturer recognises that the standard 'freebie' ones often supplied are crap, but also because they don't want to include a 'super-duper' mains cable in the box, as it would add considerably to the price of their equipment, so they simply supply it without any, and allow the customer to choose their own mains cables instead.
Don't believe it is all down to money either.
I suspect that it is, Stu, especially considering how manufacturers will increase the price of their equipment inordinately, simply because 10p resistors have been fitted, instead of 5p ones, or some such, so given that this happens at that sort of level, how much do you think a 'fancy' mains lead would add to the retail price of a piece of high-end equipment - especially when you consider how much such cables sell for on their own?
Marco.
P.S Mark, I'll get to your post later! :)
Think if i was selling a say £3,000 amp and a £200 cable was going to make it sound that much better i'd be sticking that in the box.
If a cheapie was going to make it sound worse on demo's there is no way i'd sell it without the better sounding one.
They wouldn't need to charge any more than the price they bought it for as the better one as it would be off the shelf.
Think if i was selling a say £3,000 amp and a £200 cable was going to make it sound that much better i'd be sticking that in the box.
Lol... You don't run a hi-fi business, do you? Good job, as I suspect that you'd be skint rather soon!! ;)
Marco.
brian2957
06-09-2013, 16:54
Think if i was selling a say £3,000 amp and a £200 cable was going to make it sound that much better i'd be sticking that in the box.
If a cheapie was going to make it sound worse on demo's there is no way i'd sell it without the better sounding one.
They wouldn't need to charge any more than the price they bought it for as the better one as it would be off the shelf.
I think Rega supply this mains cable with their top of the range gear http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Mains-Power-Cable-1-5m-/231041729887?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item35cb29055f
I think Rega supply this mains cable with their top of the range gear http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Mains-Power-Cable-1-5m-/231041729887?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item35cb29055f
That's a good example, Brian, and you're right. My mate bought a £5k Isis CDP and it came with one of those. Therefore, it shows you how expensive equipment has to be before a manufacturer will build in the cost of a £95 mains lead, never mind a £200 one!! ;)
I don't even see Naim giving away a free 'Power-Line' with their (£15k?) CD555s.....
Marco.
If you buy a £200 cable for a £100 and resell at £150,surely £3,150 is not going to put anyone off buying the amp.
All you have to do is buy a bulk of say 20 cables now and again when needed.
Your making £50 for an "off the peg" cable without having to do anything,seems sensible buisness to me.
If i've put loads of effort into making a great amp why would i sacriface it all at the final hurdle?
Where does one draw the line on this? If you include a high quality mains lead with an amplifier, should you also include high-quality speaker leads and interconnects? Should high quality source components, such as CDPs or tuners, also include a high quality interconnect?
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 17:52
If you buy a £200 cable for a £100 and resell at £150,surely £3,150 is not going to put anyone off buying the amp.
All you have to do is buy a bulk of say 20 cables now and again when needed.
Your making £50 for an "off the peg" cable without having to do anything,seems sensible buisness to me.
If i've put loads of effort into making a great amp why would i sacriface it all at the final hurdle?
Oh go on - I'll chip in my 2 penn'rth.
1) maybe manufacturers don't believe mains cables make a difference (maybe - still waiting for my chance to try)
2) To the extent they make a difference due to connections, then a hard wired option would be best (ie just a lead coming out of the unit - no iee socket). This has the disadvantage you have to put a different plug on the end for each market. It makes stock management significantly easier if you can just make everything with a standard socket and put the right lead in when you know which market its going to
3) Mark up doesn't quite work like that. If you add £150 to the factory gate price, you have probably added £300 to UK retail because the dealer wants a markup - and the government want 20% of his final price.
4) returning to point 1 - if a manufacturer believed that a mains lead affected his product that much - he would probably offer upgrades. It depends on your price point. Usually there is a price point you are competing against and being even a few pounds over that rules you out of a "band". So my mate Arthur sells LSD with a cheap felt mat to keep it at the price point he wants, and offers an "upgrade" to Achromat. No sane person, who likes the sound of that deck, and has shelled out 1200 notes or so for it, is not going to buy the Achromat - but they have bought a £1200 deck - not a £1270 deck. If you think your mains lead makes a difference, you offer it as an upgrade, and require your dealers to dem using it. If you don't offer it - you probably don't think it makes a difference (although I take Barrys point about interconnects a bit - manufacturers have to have a mains lead - the interconnects are never in the box. as noted in point 2 - the reason this is a loose cable is for efficiency of distribution - it would otherwise be integral)
I feel this thread has been 2 serious for too many pages, and we need some of Franks thread drift again. :)
Oh go on - I'll chip in my 2 penn'rth.
1) maybe manufacturers don't believe mains cables make a difference (maybe - still waiting for my chance to try)
2) To the extent they make a difference due to connections, then a hard wired option would be best (ie just a lead coming out of the unit - no iee socket). This has the disadvantage you have to put a different plug on the end for each market. It makes stock management significantly easier if you can just make everything with a standard socket and put the right lead in when you know which market its going to
3) Mark up doesn't quite work like that. If you add £150 to the factory gate price, you have probably added £300 to UK retail because the dealer wants a markup - and the government want 20% of his final price.
4) returning to point 1 - if a manufacturer believed that a mains lead affected his product that much - he would probably offer upgrades. It depends on your price point. Usually there is a price point you are competing against and being even a few pounds over that rules you out of a "band". So my mate Arthur sells LSD with a cheap felt mat to keep it at the price point he wants, and offers an "upgrade" to Achromat. No sane person, who likes the sound of that deck, and has shelled out 1200 notes or so for it, is not going to buy the Achromat - but they have bought a £1200 deck - not a £1270 deck. If you think your mains lead makes a difference, you offer it as an upgrade, and require your dealers to dem using it. If you don't offer it - you probably don't think it makes a difference (although I take Barrys point about interconnects a bit - manufacturers have to have a mains lead - the interconnects are never in the box. as noted in point 2 - the reason this is a loose cable is for efficiency of distribution - it would otherwise be integral)
I feel this thread has been 2 serious for too many pages, and we need some of Franks thread drift again. :)
That is basically my point otherwise surely they would hardwire the one that they felt gave the best sound with that amp.
To not do so would be a strange buisness model imo.
Stu, if only things were that simple, mate!! :doh:
Furthermore, high-end audio manufacturers know that customers like to experiment with their own cables, so it is deemed by most as not being commercially viable to supply any. Therefore, there's that angle to consider, too - and trust me - it's an important one.
Marco.
I feel this thread has been 2 serious for too many pages, and we need some of Franks thread drift again. :)
Knockers, knockers, knockers and more knockers :flasher:
Knockers, knockers, knockers and more knockers :flasher:
That surely is more of a suggestion for equipment support and isolation.
Depends some people do prefer spikes.
Depends some people do prefer spikes.
OK, so the provider of the compliant low-Q suspension wears stiletto high-heels.
I just want to say 'panties'. Ah, that's better.....
Marco.
Depends some people do prefer spikes.
Well the provider of the low resonant frequency, low Q support structure, could always wear stiletto high heels.
The idea that all one has to do is plug one's system into the raw mains supply, using a series of £2 kettle leads, and thus 'all is sonically optimised' is, quite frankly, nothing other than wishful thinking - especially when the mains supply today (with the plethora of computers and mobile phones in use, etc) is more polluted than ever! ;)
Marco.
That's what I've got up here; bog standard cables (either built-in or no-name kettle leads), mains blocks a fiver apiece, interconnects mostly give-away stuff. Sounds great!
I just want to say 'panties'. Ah, that's better.....
Marco.
I'll match your 'panties' and I'll raise the stakes with a gusset :eyebrows:
Oops, anyone got a tissue?
walpurgis
06-09-2013, 21:18
I'll match your 'panties' and I'll raise the stakes with a gusset :eyebrows:
Oops, anyone got a tissue?
Well I hope you're going to clear that up! :D
brian2957
06-09-2013, 21:25
I haven't looked at this thread for an hour or so :scratch: . Perhaps the mods should change the title to something else :lol: Have you all been at the :cool:
I haven't looked at this thread for an hour or so :scratch: . Perhaps the mods should change the title to something else :lol: Have you all been at the :cool:
well if so, they all earned it!
Oldpinkman
06-09-2013, 21:43
Excellent. I've been out having a curry, but good to see that we are on the important stuff. I'll work backwards to the boring bits :cool:
This was a CD transport and DAC and an improvement was heard on both.
Regards Neil
IME changing a mains lead from the bog standard as shipped lead with a number of CD payers and DACs made sod all difference. IME under blind testing this was also proved to be true, I hope you also tested under blind conditions as well.
I think Rega supply this mains cable with their top of the range gear http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Mains-Power-Cable-1-5m-/231041729887?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item35cb29055f
Looking at that link, it appears to be nothing more than basic armoured mains cable, similar to what Dave at MCRU sells for about £10 plus as a DIY kit and recently ordered by Richard (Oldpinkman).
They want £95 for it and it will offer absolutely no sonic benefits over a kettle lead (looks good though) unless the user has a listening environment rich in RFI. Simply, it's a basic mains cable with a braided shield. The only benefit from the shield is, if there is an RFI environment, the Faraday cage aspect of the braid (connected to earth at the plug end) will make a difference by blocking that RF interference. In most domestic situations, RFI is not an issue so the braided cable offers no benefits, but ahem...it still looks better than a basic kettle lead :doh:
in consequence, I prophesy that Oldpinkman will conclude absolutely no sonic benefit from his experiment with the cables he has chosen to test. I'm not a cable sceptic, but I do have limitations and have little time for very expensive options that rely on psychoacoustic selling. Sorry, no disrespect but I think you, Marco feed this psychoacoustic aspect.
As a DIYer, I build all my own cables from mains through to speaker cables. I recently built a pair of speaker cables for a friend who is a member here out of CAT5 networking cable and he is thrilled with the result compared with some very expensive alternatives he owns. His listening mate has also confirmed his conclusions. I build mains cable, speaker cables and interconnects from basic good quality materials, all at a fraction of the price that some commercial cable sells for. I know what I build contains absolutely no snake oil or any other bullshit.
That is why, as I've said several time before, I believe the sale of cables within the Hi-Fi industry is the biggest rip off area in the market. Many are sucked in and pass over volumes of money for rubbish products, all based on little science but a shed load of psychoacoustic comments. I certainly acknowledge that cables in a system change and affect the sound produced out of the speakers. What I don't accept is hundreds even thousands of pounds need to be spent to get a realistic sound result. If you are really into Hi-Fi as a hobby, why not try some DIY. Starting with cables is the easiest place as a beginning and when you get into it you'll find you've saved hundreds of pounds, obtained excellent results and you will have moved further forward in how to get the best out of your hobby. Furthermore, you will have extended your understanding of how it all sinks together.
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 06:45
IME changing a mains lead from the bog standard as shipped lead with a number of CD payers and DACs made sod all difference. IME under blind testing this was also proved to be true, I hope you also tested under blind conditions as well.
We're coming to that. I think both camps understand each other really. If I hear a difference
1 I shall be investigating why (a kit lends itself to this)
2 I shall be confirming with blind tests
If I don't hear a difference I am up for 2 other options
1 mcru or others (it seems to me a bit cheeky asking mcru ) can make available PROPER mains leads for further evaluation or
2 someone can demonstrate their ability to hear the difference blind
I suspect someone will be able to do that, in which case
1 I am pretty confident I will hear it too. I've done a LOT of this stuff b4 and ak & I had a session recently proving to ourselves we still have the golden ears &
2 I will be investigating why. I suspect 2 possibles for slight effects. Most slight rf interference in bad environments. Possible joint effects through poor connections. But we will see what we will see.
More to come when I have satisfied mrs s and her passionate need. Off to make her scrambled egg:eyebrows:
Sorry, no disrespect but I think you, Marco feed this psychoacoustic aspect.
No disrespect taken whatsoever, Greg :)
The thing is chaps, these discussions have been done to death for years, on every audio forum you can think of, and whilst it's always interesting debating the issue of cable efficacy, especially on a respectful, open-minded and friendly platform such as this, the discussions are forever destined to become repetitive and circular, resulting in neither 'side' changing their deeply-held views, arrived at justifiably through considerable practical experience and experimenting, over many years, including blind-testing in various different situations and environments. That certainly reflects my own situation.
Therefore, no matter how often either side is 'told' that they are 'wrong', by the other side, the proof of the pudding will always be when someone from either side returns to his or her system and quite clearly hears the sonic benefits (or hears absolutely no benefits) that 'exotic' mains leads beings to their system - and so no matter what is written here (or anywhere), at the end of the day, it will make not one jot of difference to the views held by those who are convinced that their ears (and/or test apparatus) are telling the 'truth', whether that 'truth' be that 'exotic' mains leads make no difference whatsoever, or the opposite.
However, what I find refreshing, as far as this discussion here and AoS are concerned, is that the cable 'believers' and 'sceptics/non-believers' can exchange their respective views, robustly, without things ever getting personal, which simply just doesn't happen on any of the other major forums - and most of all, it shows that the views held by our members are diverse and varied, and not, as is sometimes rather rudely inferred elsewhere, those of 'fanboys', 'jerking each other off', as this thread has clearly demonstrated by the sheer diversity of opinions expressed - and that is exactly how it should be.
Nice one, guys, and long may it continue!
Now back to bums, botties and boobs!! :lol:
Marco.
Sovereign
07-09-2013, 08:25
No disrespect taken whatsoever, Greg :)
However, what I find refreshing, as far as this discussion here and AoS are concerned, is that the cable 'believers' and 'sceptics/non-believers' can exchange their respective views, robustly, without things ever getting personal, which simply just doesn't happen on any of the other major forums - and most of all, it shows that the views held by our members are diverse and varied, and not, as is sometimes rather rudely inferred elsewhere, those of 'fanboys', 'jerking each other off', as this thread has clearly demonstrated by the sheer diversity of opinions expressed - and that is exactly how it should be.
Marco.
I agree with you there Marco, one of the main reasons why I rarely post on the other two forums I am a member of is for this very reason. Very interesting topics get crapped all over and flushed down the pan. Very frustrating indeed. If you want to make a constructive comment if is lost in a sea of shite.
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 08:26
Marco
As a close scrutiny of my posts will confirm, I hold to a higher plane and could not stoop to bums, botties or boobs :bum:. However, with Mrs S now expressing herself fully satisfied by the early morning treat, I can return to the fray of dragon slaying. I had set out my planned methodology before Mrs S and her yearnings for scrambled egg intervened.:bonk:
By way of a bit of street cred, I can cite a recent example of the "science" brigade getting it wrong. When I first asked my mate about the hum I could now hear in my 405-2 (having finally, with his patient assistance on telephone diagnositics***, got the last of the earth loop and associated problems out of the main audio system, to reveal the latent hum in the power amp which lay beneath), I mentioned that I had researched on the web, and there were many suggestions that it was due to tired electrolytics, and in particular C5. Should I re-cap it? (just about within my ability - although mates such as this one are never prepared to give a straight "yes" to any suggestion I run power through a soldering iron). So I got the inevitable "no" followed by a warning of listening to religious fanatics and mystics on the web, electrolytics don't wear out, mumbo-jumbo etc - and the usual "probably". He is of the Peter Walker old school. He is also a highly qualified, skilled and experienced audio engineer, with over 40 years experience, a background of research at Essex Uni, and credentials as long as your arm. And he was wrong. Once he had finished muttering oaths at how hard it was to access the boards to service them, due to my previous activities with a soldering iron, acknowledged I had fired his interest in both investigating further 405 mods, and playing with an all new power amp design, and getting distracted thereby, he came back and announced that several electrolytics were indeed "out of range". How out of range? No measurable capacitance on one board on one cap at all, barely 10% of reference value on the other board. Oh - and which capacitor would that be? C5!!
However, whilst this is an example of a successful challenge to the scientists, and my willingness to do so, and put up with scorn and derision poured on my suggestions, it is not an example of the laws of physics being overturned. It is an example of an audio engineer expressing his opinion of a "probable" result based on his extensive past experience - and not having encountered that issue before (because he is more to the research end, and not really the repair end of the audio engineer spectrum)
My reservation about Marco and his camp, nice chaps though they are, well meaning, and doubtless kind to their dear old Mum, is that this reliance on "they could be wrong" is frighteningly close to the condition I will forever more refer to as "The Linn chip". I have been 20 years away from this HiFi farmyard, but dropped into it unexpected from a great height this year, I can still recognise the scent of bullshit. What happens, is that in saying "ah - you can't be sure", "measurements don't tell the whole story", or heaven forbid "they all thought Dyson was wrong" - you make statements which are unassailably true, but may be neither relevant nor helpful. And in the process perpetuate a cult which, and I am going to stand up and be counted here, I think is at least potentially harmful.
The potential harm can be seen on this forum. I may have arrived a bit green, but I am learning fast. There are a few chaps here that seem to like the Technics SL1200 and cousins. Nothing wrong with that. There is a big enthusiasm for valve amplifiers, and almost a retro-belief they are necessarily better than SS once you have seen the light. Can live with that too - cos I am still a bit that way inclined myself, although the friend mentioned earlier, whilst not dismissive of valves, always ends up producing an even better SS amp instead. No the issue here (and I have to confess I'm lovin' it:clapclapclap: ) is that slightly smug superiority regarding the former deluded of the Linn chip camp. Oh how they were all sucked in way back then (hey - and not only do I still have a belt-drive suspended turntable, I first bought it [actually not this exact unit - I built this one subsequently] with a Linn Basic LV-5 arm, and Linn Basik cartridge, for my Nad 3020 and Keesonic kubs, and Koss K6 headphones to use at Uni. At least I upgraded the cans to Stax soon after.) So believe me, I know what it is to be "in the gang"
I see myself, with only the most collossal arrogance, as the RATIONAL peoples champion (ie technically innergrant) in the battle to push the dull scientists into pushing the boundaries of audio.
But I don't do fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Now - back to the main contribution of this thread, and a reminder to those considering questioning the kit I shall be using to evaluate mains cables, that Mrs S, in this her 2nd marriage, having been a little disappointed by some aspects of her previous one, has expressed herself entirely satisfied with all of my equipment, commenting that it is "magnificent, and quite the best she has ever experienced". :flasher:
*** proofing this I have remembered why I put the *** in on the telephone diagnostics bit. At a recent barbecue my 21 year old daughter Rachel was talking about her career. She showjumps, and is competing at the Horse of the Year on 9 October. She is in her final year at Hartpury studying equine sports science, and plans to then take a 3 year training in equine physiotherapy to become one of those. We were recalling the assorted folk who had previously sorted out her horses and ponies backs, and one incident where her Mum, in her desperation, had paid £50 to this guy to talk to her horse on a mobile phone. You see - it's not just HiFi :lol:
I agree with you there Marco, one of the main reasons why I rarely post on the other two forums I am a member of is for this very reason. Very interesting topics get crapped all over and flushed down the pan. Very frustrating indeed. If you want to make a constructive comment if is lost in a sea of shite.
"Lost in a sea of shite" - I f*cking LOVE that!!! :lol: :lol:
May I borrow it to use sometimes (subject to a small fee, of course)?
Marco.
Richard,
I like you, and I enjoy reading your contributions, but if you want me to reply to them (especially when I'm busy), you'll have to be more concise!! ;)
Stick to making one (or two) points only, per post, and then I'll have time to both read what you've written properly, and respond accordingly. No offence meant, dude :)
Marco.
Sovereign
07-09-2013, 08:41
Just buy me a pint sometime
walpurgis
07-09-2013, 08:47
Richard,
I like you, and I enjoy reading your contributions, but if you want me to reply to them (especially when I'm busy), you'll have to be more concise!! ;)
Stick to making one (or two) points only, per post, and then I'll have time to both read what you've written properly, and respond accordingly. No offence meant, dude :)
Marco.
Yes, I'm having to sit down and have a quiet cuppa after reading all that! ;)
brian2957
07-09-2013, 08:52
Just buy me a pint sometime
Pint of what ?
I've been meaning to try fancy kettle lead for a while, just not got round to it yet. I am pretty much in the same camp as Richard - sceptical, but with an open mind. I've heard inexplicable differences before (the difference between mains blocks, the difference raising the mains block off the floor makes). Also I have witnessed inexplicable things in other areas of life that tells me that the 'science knows it all. pretty much' approach is foolishly arrogant. I'm guessing that the reason we can have these discussions on AoS without the insults is that most members have the same attitude/approach.
I've been meaning to try fancy kettle lead for a while, just not got round to it yet. I am pretty much in the same camp as Richard - sceptical, but with an open mind. I've heard inexplicable differences before (the difference between mains blocks, the difference raising the mains block off the floor makes). Also I have witnessed inexplicable things in other areas of life that tells me that the 'science knows it all. pretty much' approach is foolishly arrogant. I'm guessing that the reason we can have these discussions on AoS without the insults is that most members have the same attitude/approach.
Fair point chief but cable believers far outweigh the non-believers from what I see and hear daily. :)
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 09:47
You, collectively are not the first people to comment I am a bit fond of the sound of my own voice.
This is NOT a post requiring comment. This is a prelude to a forthcoming brief post to make just one point for comment.
(I am a bit wary of giving anything the "snip" following a recent vasectomy, but I'll get the editorial scissors out.
TTFN ;)
Clive197
07-09-2013, 09:55
I blame Russ Andrews, he started this fight. Bet he is sitting back having a good laugh while taking in the money.
Fair point chief but cable believers far outweigh the non-believers from what I see and hear daily. :)
Well if I can get biblical on your ass ;) - Jesus rises from the dead and goes back to the 11 remaining apostles and says 'lo, it is me Jesus risen from the dead as fortold in the scriptures.' 10 apostles are rapturous, but Thomas says 'Hold on there Bald Eagle' (or something like that). 'Prove you are Jesus; show me the wounds in your hands were you were nailed to the cross, show me the spear wound in your side.' So Jesus shows him and then he believes. Now this tale is told as a warning that we should not be sceptical and ask for proof but just, instead, 'believe'. However I've always been of the opinion that doubting Thomas was the only bloke in the bunch who was actually switched on.
I'm guessing that the reason we can have these discussions on AoS without the insults is that most members have the same attitude/approach.
Hi Martin,
The majority of our members may have a similar attitude/approach, but there are still plenty around of an opposite mindset to 'upset the applecart', if need be! The point is, when those chaps show up, and post their legitimate views (as they have here), all hell doesn't break loose, unfortunately like it does elsewhere - and that's primarily thanks to you guys (and how the forum is managed) :)
Marco.
It's all good fun, nothing new will transpire and we can all argue till the cows come home, I do however like to read the threads from people who say mains leads make no difference whatsoever as I find it highly enjoyable when a customer makes an effort to phone me to say how incredibly better his hi-fi sounds just by adding a new mains lead, I even get praised for the fuses I sell too. Don't forget all these people who buy these things can send them back if they don't like them. MCRU is 3 years old as a business, I have had less than 10 items of any sort sent back.
MCRU
Some belated feedback, belated because of apathy
Several years ago I decided to try some of the things others on forums were making good noises about but I had always not bothered with. I knew interconnects worked so I tried a couple of well spoken of makes and was well pleased.
Another early candidate was mains cables. Years ago Russ Andrews ads used to stand isolated (nobody mentioned them) in HiFi mags. Intuitively I disregarded them as a man after my cash and giving questionable benefits in return. So for years I have ignored mains cables and their vendors claims.
AoS forum had a thread saying how amazing a difference one of MCRU mains cables had made to their system, others had posted saying it was the same for them. The cable was of modest cost around £40 IIRC so I went for it. Lets join this party.
Replaced the supplied rather thick kettle lead so often dismissed as flimsy and unsuitable for purpose to my amp. Powered up and played music. Nothing sprang out. Perhaps it improves with what folks call burn in so just left it there awaiting the benefits to make themselves apparent. Time passed and what others may call subtle may have happened but things stayed much as they are for me.
I mention this on a thread about guess what, surprise Mains Cables and someone smartly said you should have returned itand got your money back. Time had passed and out of sight out of mind, it didn't sound worse at least it stays as a reminder if nothing else.
So I did not ring or email you to say sorry it makes not a hapeth of difference can I return it and have my money back. I just put it down to experience. If people post raving about a mains cable product, smile. When you promotional email arrives scan it and smile. I shall not be trying any more mains cables no matter how fit for the job they look and how much posters rave.
Just to say thanks AoS I did find a mains regenerator made an immediately noticeable difference lest ye think I am deaf or anti getting your mains sorted.
If someone who believes in Mains cables within a stones throw (easy travel) of my home is willing to invite me to share their experience then I would be interested to see what I make of it.
I also notice how different forms regard different topics. I hope I am fair in saying most Wigwam members dismiss cable matters, PFM is 50/50, AoS seems full steam. Interesting, do people move between forums based on their belief in Mains Cables?
Interesting thread gents
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 10:26
Brief post for comment coming up next. This is a brief post to explain why, the following brief post won't be quite as brief as it might have been
I talk too much
I like to inject a little flippant humour in case I take myself too seriously (another well documented weakness)
I like random digressions - I model myself on Ronnie Corbett
Nice post Alan S. The fact that the majority on AOS believe in cables doesn't establish a case for anything except that like minds gang together. THIS WAS NOT FOR COMMENT. (But of course, being a liberal minded thread owner, you can if you like)
Brief post for comment by Marco (and others) coming up next. Maybe after I've mowed the lawn :)
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 10:27
I blame Russ Andrews, he started this fight. Bet he is sitting back having a good laugh while taking in the money.
I've asked this before - where's the "like" button????? That might stop me rambling..
No - you're right. It wouldn't :lol:
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 10:33
Marco
Why do we need believers and non-believers? This is HiFi - not God
You need to believe in things you can't demonstrate. I do not believe in the existence of the houses of parliament. If I have any doubts, I get on a train and look at them
I might ask a couple of mates I know and trust to get on a train and have a look for me.
There is no question of anybody needing to believe in their existence. They either are there - or they are not.
(I say this recognising the fact, this is the RC digression - not for comment, that SWMBO works as teacher in a school where it is currently fashionable to "know" that the moon landings were faked in a studio. I line up with Brian Cox on that one, when he was presenting the live BBC astronomy program. If you are about to make a comment like that, please switch to the other channel and watch Eastenders instead :rolleyes:)
Fairly brief! :eek:
Marco
Why do we need believers and non-believers? This is HiFi - not God
You need to believe in things you can't demonstrate. I do not believe in the existence of the houses of parliament. If I have any doubts, I get on a train and look at them
Regarding the term 'believers', it's not something I particularly like to use (hence my use of inverted commas in my earlier post), as I consider it as a little derogatory, but it's one that is bandied about regularly around various forums, so I used it here as most people recognise and understand the term.
I don't "need" to 'believe' in anything, nor demonstrate it (the latter unless someone asks me nicely). I'm simply utterly satisfied, comfortable and confident with the situation that my system sounds significantly better (to my ears), powered from 'fancy' mains cables, than it does otherwise, as my judgement criteria have been well and truly satisfied, after many years of experimenting in this area.
I understand that your views may be different, in that respect, perhaps because you're at a different stage in your 'cable discovering' journey, and that's cool. The important thing to do is once you've satisfied your judgement criteria, to the best of your ability, is accept your decision and relax, worrying not whether you are 'right' or 'wrong', or about seeking 'certainty', and just enjoy the music!
That's where I'm 'at' now, and the feeling is good. I hope you get there, too! :)
Marco.
Clive197
07-09-2013, 11:13
Marco
Why do we need believers and non-believers? This is HiFi - not God
You need to believe in things you can't demonstrate. I do not believe in the existence of the houses of parliament. If I have any doubts, I get on a train and look at them
I might ask a couple of mates I know and trust to get on a train and have a look for me.
There is no question of anybody needing to believe in their existence. They either are there - or they are not.
(I say this recognising the fact, this is the RC digression - not for comment, that SWMBO works as teacher in a school where it is currently fashionable to "know" that the moon landings were faked in a studio. I line up with Brian Cox on that one, when he was presenting the live BBC astronomy program. If you are about to make a comment like that, please switch to the other channel and watch Eastenders instead :rolleyes:)
Fairly brief! :eek:
Richard your waffling again, time for a beer and sit and watch the Grand Prix qualy.
Oldpinkman
07-09-2013, 11:22
Richard your waffling again, time for a beer and sit and watch the Grand Prix qualy.
Ah yes. Sorry - that should be, nobody needs to believe mains cables work. Either, someone can convincingly demonstrate they do - or they can't
Convincingly demonstrate means correctly identify "better" without being able to know what they are listening to
Simples :)
Ah yes. Sorry - that should be, nobody needs to believe mains cables work. Either, someone can convincingly demonstrate they do - or they can't
Convincingly demonstrate means correctly identify "better" without being able to know what they are listening to
Simples :)
Not really. What if you don't feel any necessity or compulsion to demonstrate or 'prove' anything, and are entirely comfortable with your own situation, in reference to 'exotic' mains cables, whether it is 'right' or not?
Forgive me, Richard, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you wrote something earlier that for me was quite telling. I should nab the exact quote, but I can't be arsed trawling through the thread to find it. Anyway, it was along the lines of you felt that you would be 'missing out' in some way if you couldn't hear the sonic improvements of using 'exotic' mains cables others claim to hear, so this is a serious question:
Why does that matter to you? Maybe they're imagining it, maybe they're not - who cares??
Surely as long as YOU are happy that YOU either can or can't hear the difference of using 'exotic' mains cables, as opposed to bog-standard kettle leads, based on your own judgment criteria, and regardless of the answer, you continue enjoying listening to your favourite music, then that is ALL that matters?
Bugger anyone else......!
It's seems to me, and as I said, correct me if I'm wrong, that your comments on this subject suggest an insecurity, in that you're unable to trust the validity of your own opinion, and place conviction in it, unless that opinion is somehow 'scientifically proven' as being 'correct'.
If so, mate, that's not a healthy place for your head to be, and could lead to world of frustration and dissatisfaction in future, simply because you may never obtain the conclusive proof you seek....
Apologies if I'm wrong, but that's how you're coming across :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
07-09-2013, 12:08
IME changing a mains lead from the bog standard as shipped lead with a number of CD payers and DACs made sod all difference. IME under blind testing this was also proved to be true, I hope you also tested under blind conditions as well.
Nope, no need to do so, blind man and galloping horse difference, readily and audible superior each time and it always has been since first time I heard a mains cable make a difference, either too the negative (has happened a few times) but mostly the positive. Heard it with front ends and amplifiers, both pre and power.
I don't do blind tests, never felt the need to and I certainly don't suffer from placebo or expectation bias.
Regards Neil
Rare Bird
07-09-2013, 12:14
I'm not a cable believer. They have simple properties and once you shield them well enough and make them thick enough then really that should be it...
I'm not a believer either. If the chosen cable is constructed to my satisfaction together with my desired way of constructing the lead that's enough for me, i expect nothing from the cable other than do the job i require of it without Interfearence from any outside influence..if my hifi component doesnt sound right with bog standard cable i will not bother with the equipment in the first place..
Spectral Morn
07-09-2013, 12:30
I'm not a believer either. If the chosen cable is constructed to my satisfaction together with my desired way of constructing the lead that's enough for me, i expect nothing from the cable other than do the job i require of it without Interfearence from any outside influence..if my hifi component doesnt sound right with bog standard cable i will not bother with the equipment in the first place..
Hi Andre
I am believer in what I hear, not blind faith that it must make a difference, in fact everything in me cries that it shouldn't and can't and yet it does and consistently does. Since the first time I heard a Kimber Power Kord improve the sound of an amp and a Marantz CD94mk2 very many years ago. I felt I had no choice but to have/keep an open mind about this, as I kept hearing an effect.
I think the question of whether something is performing right or not is a bit of a red herring in that it does - to a level - just as a car does on standard fuel, but feed it better and performance jumps. I think its the same for audio via feeding cleaner power to the equipment and the improvements occur re the final full potential of sound being achieved. However the reasons for that are variable and hard to pin down, as there literally are a myriad of differences in individual systems, home wiring etc to confuse the issue never mind listening ability, willingness to hear etc (talking in general here by the way)
That might possibly explain why in some set ups no audible difference is heard, but I struggle with that as I have heard mains cables make a difference in myriads of locations, not just my own set up - go figure its a mystery but some day hopefully it can be solved.
Regards Neil
Gordon Steadman
07-09-2013, 13:16
I find all this totally bizarre.
Over the last 45 years of listening to audio, having been through all sorts of standards of equipment and rooms from a 10 ft square box to a 50ft by 20ft barn, I have never yet heard mains cables make any difference at all. I've had special spurs, mains conditioners, huge solid core cables, you name it and abandoned them all because it made no difference I could detect. I tried them all because I read that they would make a difference. Even speaker leads I find pretty much the same, although I draw the line at bellwire.
As I have said before, one of the worst hi-fis I have ever heard used Krell amps and CD, Wilson Watt speakers and all the 'extras' that could possibly be squeezed in, cables, lifters, fairy dust, you name it. Dreadful and painful.
I'm not saying others don't hear it because every system and every room is different but, having tried in so many different situations, I am staggered by the 'apparent' agreement amongst the golden eared.
I'm looking forward to hearing about Richard's experience over this weekend. Should be interesting whichever way it goes.
I'm not saying others don't hear it because every system and every room is different but, having tried in so many different situations, I am staggered by the 'apparent' agreement amongst the golden eared.
Gordon, do me a favour, eh? Please don't use the term "golden eared", as it's both derogatory to those it's aimed at and, most importantly, untrue!! ;)
At the end of the day, you hear what you hear (or not, as the case may be), and that's it...
What fascinates me is the apparent insecurity of some people, where they appear to require a consensus of opinion, one way or the other, and some 'proof' to back that up, before they then feel comfortable about considering that their opinion is 'right'.
Now *THAT* is bizarre!!!
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-09-2013, 13:37
Yep, good point mate, a lot of people seem to need to be told what is good or bad, instead of just making their own minds up.
Yep, good point mate, a lot of people seem to need to be told what is good or bad, instead of just making their own minds up.
The trouble is that, when you relate your experiences, you are told you are 'delusional' if you say you hear differences between cables, and 'cloth-eared' if you say you don't. That's what causes the angst.
Sure, Joe, but, at the end of the day, you should always have the gumption to trust your judgement criteria in hi-fi and thus have sufficient conviction in your own opinions, or otherwise what's the point?
You build a system based on what someone else says is 'correct' - how is that ever going to provide satisfaction in the long term?? :scratch:
Ali hits the nail on the head: it's this 'need to be told what is best' thing, or rather 'need to be irrefutably convinced that one is right,' where the problem lies. It smacks of the old 'certainty seeking' thing again, often discussed on pfm - not healthy! :nono:
Why can't some people live with an element of doubt in their lives?
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
07-09-2013, 14:05
Gordon, do me a favour, eh? Please don't use the term "golden eared", as it's both derogatory to those it's aimed at and, most importantly, untrue!! ;)
At the end of the day, you hear what you hear (or not, as the case may be), and that's it...
What fascinates me is the apparent insecurity of some people, where they appear to require a consensus of opinion, one way or the other, and some 'proof' to back that up, before they then feel comfortable about considering that their opinion is 'right'.
Now *THAT* is bizarre!!!
Marco.
OK, sorry about the 'golden ear' bit, an expression left over from a previous existence.
As I recall, I commented on this strange need to be right in a previous post. In this one I was just stating my experience which is what everyone else is doing. Mine just happens to be different to yours. I don't give a stuff what anyone else has, does or thinks, it cannot affect my own experience in any way.
However, I also see nothing wrong with wanting to know the answer to my favourite question...........why? and how? If it weren't for those questions being asked, we would still be dragging women by the hair after clobbering them with a big club...........ah............hmmmmm.:scratch:
Well, Gordon, drag yourself to the UK some day, and to sunny North Wales in particular, and I'll give you a handle on what I'm listening to and perhaps why I can hear these things... You never know, you might end up hearing them, too! ;)
Aside from that bollocks, the wine and 'scran' will be reasonably acceptable, as should the company! :cheers:
Marco.
I find all this totally bizarre.
Over the last 45 years of listening to audio, having been through all sorts of standards of equipment and rooms from a 10 ft square box to a 50ft by 20ft barn, I have never yet heard mains cables make any difference at all. I've had special spurs, mains conditioners, huge solid core cables, you name it and abandoned them all because it made no difference I could detect.
The other thing to consider, Gordon, is how the same level of incredulity is shared by those of us on the other side of the fence, as we're sitting there thinking 'how can they (you lot) not hear the difference this stuff makes, as it's so bloody obvious??'
;)
I can assure you with some certainly that that is exactly what is happening!
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
07-09-2013, 16:32
The other thing to consider, Gordon, is how the same level of incredulity is shared by those of us on the other side of the fence, as we're sitting there thinking 'how can they (you lot) not hear the difference this stuff makes, as it's so bloody obvious??'
;)
I can assure you with some certainly that that is exactly what is happening!
Marco.
Thus the real reason for my 'golden ear' comment. I used to belong to a group of hi-fi fans. One of them always had the latest widget to improve his system and to a man, none of the rest of us could hear the slightest difference. He and his like always accused us of being deaf which is as nasty a comment as the golden bit. I've had this all through the years from Mr Belt right through all the latest stuff and still find it impossible to believe, certainly not that "its so bloody obvious".
I hear exactly the same arguments about religion, both sides using basically the same old argument. You must believe, have faith and all will be revealed. Not to me it hasn't, I'm doubting Thomas and no-one has shown me the 'truth' as yet. You are all welcome to believe what you will, hear what you will.
Its the human condition.
So, no doubt someone will want the last word but that is mine on this subject.
Clive197
07-09-2013, 16:50
I believed that the reason some people could hear the difference mains cables work and an equal but opposite number of people can't, down to where they live. People who live in built up areas tend to hear the benefits and people who live in rural areas can't. I put this down to noisy mains from manufacturing, commercial premises, switch mode power supplies etc. this theory seems blown out of the water by Marco, who lives in North Wales where the dense population of sheep who don't worry about poor mains and commercialism live. Oh well back to the drawing board. I live in London along with12 million other souls who cannot do without their phone chargers etc also reside and on that basis I can hear the difference that a good mains cable makes. Oops! That's nailed my colours to the mast.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but there is no way anyone can honestly say this:-
[IMAGE DELETED BY ADMIN]
its just not possible, obviously I am biased towards my own cables but the humble kettle lead has no real place in proper hi-fi
bobbasrah
07-09-2013, 17:18
Personally I prefer speakers, but each to their own......
julesd68
07-09-2013, 17:22
Do we really need more rather unsubtle 'product placement' MCRU photographs?
I think everyone knows where the website is by now... ;)
Seems most hi fi companies are more than happy with the humble kettle lead.
For over 30 years thats all i've seen in new amp/cd boxes.
Also never seen a company saying you must get a better mains lead for this item to work properly.
Seems most hi fi companies are more than happy with the humble kettle lead.
For over 30 years thats all i've seen in new amp/cd boxes.
Also never seen a company saying you must get a better mains lead for this item to work properly.
And when I asked my amps manufacturer they said just use the ones in the box (which were not the flimsy things that come with computers). Turned out they were right, but why shouldn't they be?
The Grand Wazoo
07-09-2013, 17:41
.....obviously I am biased towards my own cables but the humble kettle lead has no real place in proper hi-fi
No, David, I won't have that - you are attempting to belittle people's perfectly good systems and deceive them into buying your expensive wire by constantly dripping this nonsense into AoS. That's not good enough and it's not what AoS is supposed to be about.
By all means we are all free to talk about improvements but don't you dare try this guilt shit on people.
sq225917
07-09-2013, 17:44
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but there is no way anyone can honestly say this:-
[IMAGE DELETED BY ADMIN]
its just not possible, obviously I am biased towards my own cables but the humble kettle lead has no real place in proper hi-fi
Not only can I say it, but I absolutely guarantee that you cannot tell them apart in a blind ABX. But there's no point arguing about it, because those with a vested interested will never take the test.
walpurgis
07-09-2013, 17:54
I've not done comparisons, but I remain very sceptical about 'audiophile' mains leads. Granted I hear vast differences between speaker leads and interconnect cables, but they are in the signal path. Mains is not part of the signal even though obviously it provides the power to handle signals.
I've not done comparisons, but I remain very sceptical about 'audiophile' mains leads. Granted I hear vast differences between speaker leads and interconnect cables, but they are in the signal path. Mains is not part of the signal even though obviously it provides the power to handle signals.
Thats a bit too logical
I have access to an ABX comparator box - as it happens.....
walpurgis
07-09-2013, 18:17
Thats a bit too logical
There's logical, but too logical?
twickers
07-09-2013, 18:21
I have access to an ABX comparator box - as it happens.....
Depends Mark, does it need it's own mains cable...:eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
07-09-2013, 18:32
Do we really need more rather unsubtle 'product placement' MCRU photographs?
I think everyone knows where the website is by now... ;)
I must admit that I'm fed of reading subtle inferences to buy MCRU products which includes pictures and irrelevant posts in threads highlighting the benefits of the products that MCRU sells. Why dont we just rename AOS MCRU and have done with it?
What I am interested is why some of us hear a difference and some of us no difference. I do not deny either truth what I am interested is why the difference
For me I live in a pre war house with factories close by so even cable sceptics will admit what I done with my mains has made a difference, but in other systems I have not always heard a difference
My own view is its something you have to try for yourself
I agree seems David/MCRU gets away with pushing it too far for comfort.
Thus the real reason for my 'golden ear' comment. I used to belong to a group of hi-fi fans. One of them always had the latest widget to improve his system and to a man, none of the rest of us could hear the slightest difference. He and his like always accused us of being deaf which is as nasty a comment as the golden bit. I've had this all through the years from Mr Belt right through all the latest stuff and still find it impossible to believe, certainly not that "its so bloody obvious".
I hear exactly the same arguments about religion, both sides using basically the same old argument. You must believe, have faith and all will be revealed. Not to me it hasn't, I'm doubting Thomas and no-one has shown me the 'truth' as yet. You are all welcome to believe what you will, hear what you will.
Its the human condition.
So, no doubt someone will want the last word but that is mine on this subject.
Lol... My point was intended to be light-hearted, old chap, so don't take things so much to heart! :)
Marco.
I agree seems David/MCRU gets away with pushing it too far for comfort.
I totally agree (and also with the comments from others in that respect). David, reign in the blatant self-promotion, FFS - you've been told about this before!! Honestly, you need to stop this. When I've finished my dinner, the silly over-sized ads on this thread you've posted will be removed.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
07-09-2013, 19:01
Here's a different take on the subject. I make my own mains leads. I don't use fancy plugs in that I rebuild them:D I do use very pure silver for the conductor and have a friend who individually casts parts of the plug for me in pure silver. The conductor core is 3-4mm which is tripple shielded against EMI and RFI. It's as simple as that. Now, psychologically I have made a plug as good as I can make it and to my own specifications. I dont believe that a bit of carbon fibre makes any difference and I also dont believe that copper is a better conductor than silver. I dont believe a fancy plug makes any difference. I do believe in quality of the conductor and shielding. Because I have controlled these variables I dont have to worry about the bull$hit thats peddled around the forums about how one cable is better than another.
Not only can I say it, but I absolutely guarantee that you cannot tell them apart in a blind ABX. But there's no point arguing about it, because those with a vested interested will never take the test.
Let's try that then sometime, Simon, and we'll use Mark's ABX comparator box and my mains leads vs. whatever ya fancy - should be a giggle! :)
Marco.
I believed that the reason some people could hear the difference mains cables work and an equal but opposite number of people can't, down to where they live. People who live in built up areas tend to hear the benefits and people who live in rural areas can't. I put this down to noisy mains from manufacturing, commercial premises, switch mode power supplies etc. Oh well back to the drawing board. I live in London along with12 million other souls who cannot do without their phone chargers etc also reside and on that basis I can hear the difference that a good mains cable makes. Oops! That's nailed my colours to the mast.
Sorry Clive, I edited out the sheep bit :rolleyes:
I can't agree with what you have written if all you are considering in your noisy electrical environment is the mains lead. Apart from a shielded cable reducing or preventing RFI, a mains cable on it's own will make IMHO, bugger all difference.
If we extend the consideration to mains conditioning, that is a very different animal to consider, and here I acknowledge the value of products our Dave at MCRU sells, particularly the IsoTek stuff. Unfortunately I was unable to attend his recent open weekend when IsoTek were demonstrating their mains conditioning stuff at his towers. Did you get there Marco as expected? The reports I have read from the folks who attended and Who I seriously trust for their listening skills suggest that conditioning does make a positive difference to the sound, albeit, apparently at considerable cost. Hopefully one day, I'll hear the difference for myself.
Mains conditioning can in itself be problematic. Several years ago I built a mains filter which does work well when digital items and TV are fed from it. However, it squashed the sound on my valve amps, taking out the dynamics I was used to hearing. In consequence, now it is only in circuit for the CDP, DVDP, VCR (yes, we still use one) and the TV.
Ali Tait
07-09-2013, 20:49
I've found balanced mains to give a real and positive improvement.
Why dont we just rename AOS MCRU and have done with it?
I can assure you, Andy, that WON'T be happening. We are proud of the depth of trade account members we have here on AoS, but it's equally important that we retain our impartiality and neutrality. We each have our favourites, naturally, but no trader will do business as the official voice of this forum.
I can assure you, Andy, that WON'T be happening. We are proud of the depth of trade account members we have here on AoS, but it's equally important that we retain our impartiality and neutrality. We each have our favourites, naturally, but no trader will do business as the official voice of this forum.
goodbye chaps, it's been fun.
walpurgis
07-09-2013, 22:15
goodbye chaps, it's been fun.
That makes no sense to me.
What I am interested is why some of us hear a difference and some of us no difference. I do not deny either truth what I am interested is why the difference
Me too. As I said previously other forums hardly recognise differences and joke about those with strong belief in mains cables. Mains cables hardly shout their differences/improvements. Even AoS confines itself to saying they are different but seldom if ever what is the difference heard?
For me I live in a pre war house with factories close by so even cable sceptics will admit what I done with my mains has made a difference, but in other systems I have not always heard a difference
My own view is its something you have to try for yourself
So what have you done with cables for your home?
Those are some mains cables. 400k volts I believehttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSy_0l-E3BqqXj-SxvuLBbby45lP6k-qYJNdeOH9WBdDPYs2V_e
Ali Tait
08-09-2013, 02:25
Yep, transmitted that way for, in some cases, hundreds of miles, with no shielding or foo cables.
Me too. As I said previously other forums hardly recognise differences and joke about those with strong belief in mains cables. Mains cables hardly shout their differences/improvements. Even AoS confines itself to saying they are different but seldom if ever what is the difference heard?
So what have you done with cables for your home?
As my system has changed my cabling needs has changed
I have a dedicated mains and earth going to amplifiers and use a quality mains lead going to a linear power supply I still hear a difference with this cable When I was using bigger amplifiers separate pre etc I needed a balanced system as the system has changed I only needed the balance for my phonostage I now use a filter that does the job fine for the phonostage without the filter I cannot even listen to the TT as it effects the sound so much.
About 6 months I visited Martin T and listening to his system, in the past I used to use RA cables but in my system the silver cables I use were in a different league. Towards the end I suggested we change cables on Martin Ayre he was using a RA cable and it took the performance of his CD standard playback to what he was getting on DVD/A. It was a clear example of the difference cables sometimes can make.
I have a friend who is a cable sceptic, we were playing about with my system and forget to use the quality cable to phonostahe we both commented how the sound has changed I could not understand why till my friend pointed out he just used a ordinary cable as soon as we put the cable back, the sound we were expecting came back. Yet in his system cables seem to make little difference but he lives beside a sub station in a modern house. His system is very similar to mine.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 06:24
Oh my word, what busy boys and girls while I've been away watching rugby. I think I need to sit at the desktop & work through these - there are far too many to do from here?
I say "boys & girls" but where is the aos totty? Women enjoy music at least as much as men -but in my time I can think of only 2 who were seriously into hifi. Mary of myst, and a lady whose name I forget from chord cables. What does that tell us about what we are interested in?
At least frank can talk about lady parts without upsetting anyone.
The Grand Wazoo
08-09-2013, 07:29
Actually, there are a few female AoS'ers Richard, so Frank (and the rest of us) really shouldn't be too frank about such things!
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 07:40
Right a quickie before breakfast, cos there is just so much to go through.
I wouldn't presume to interfere with the moderators or site owners, but I should just like to make absolutely clear that I took no offence in Dave's posts. Maybe they used up valuable server space, but if you don't like them, skip on. I shall be posting a HUGE picture of MCRU cables just as soon as I succeed in building them. Goodness only knows what Dave charges for building them, but its not enough! This thread is not about having a pop at Dave or anyone else. It is about my interest in listening to music and enjoying it and understanding which solutions are likely to help me, and which are likely not to. It is also about having rational (hopefully somewhat entertaining) discussions.
Yes the cables arrived, efficiently despatched, beautifully packaged, looking the dogs bollocks (never mind whether they work, they just look the part).
And yes, as you have all probably been smugly predicting, based on my acknowledged limitations, I spent 3 hours f***ing up building the first one. Fortunately, I over-ordered on cables, and Dave over-supplied on crimps, so - once the good weather has been exploited for a bit of gardening, I may return for another pop. Sorry - but you're just going to have to wait a bit longer!
In any other circumstances I would have just bodged it, but that really would be pointless in the context of this experiment. As it was, I was looking over my shoulder to make sure friends didn't catch me cleaning mains cable and crimping it. I am fairly thick-skinned but the ribbing would have gone on for weeks. If the cables are supplied that way, for me to evaluate them, they need to be built that way. I may yet be back to Dave for more Deoxil and crimps.
It's the screen connection from fat cable in a crowded 3-pin to make the Faraday cage that is the real text-speak "See You Next Tuesday". Of course, I didn't help myself by ignoring the helpful guide on the card attached to the plugs, but, I ask you, what red-blooded male ever reads the instructions?
I have learned from the experience :oops:
sq225917
08-09-2013, 07:54
Marco, Andrew/marks abx box is a speaker level switching device so its no use for mains testing. I'm not quite sure what we'd need to be able to hot swap power chords and where it would make most sense, source or amps. I don't think introducing any variables other than the two cables under test into the system would be a satisfactory solution.
I know from past experience that I can hear no difference between cables unsighted and that's using 3mm 4nines silver per conductor with silver Hubble UK plug and silver wattgate IEC plug. I never managed to get better than 50/50 and have never been able to measure a difference either.
Right a quickie before breakfast
What people listen to in the privacy of their own home is fine by me. Glad you are in great health.
goodbye chaps, it's been fun.
No need for the dramatics, daftee, or any need to go. Perhaps take some time out, if you need it. The fact is you overstepped the mark (big time) and got your botty spanked - deservedly. Take it on the chin and learn from it, and then we can all get back to normal :)
Marco.
As my system has changed my cabling needs has changed
I have a dedicated mains and earth going to amplifiers and use a quality mains lead going to a linear power supply I still hear a difference with this cable When I was using bigger amplifiers separate pre etc I needed a balanced system as the system has changed I only needed the balance for my phonostage I now use a filter that does the job fine for the phonostage without the filter I cannot even listen to the TT as it effects the sound so much.
About 6 months I visited Martin T and listening to his system, in the past I used to use RA cables but in my system the silver cables I use were in a different league. Towards the end I suggested we change cables on Martin Ayre he was using a RA cable and it took the performance of his CD standard playback to what he was getting on DVD/A. It was a clear example of the difference cables sometimes can make.
I have a friend who is a cable sceptic, we were playing about with my system and forget to use the quality cable to phonostage we both commented how the sound has changed I could not understand why till my friend pointed out he just used a ordinary cable as soon as we put the cable back, the sound we were expecting came back. Yet in his system cables seem to make little difference but he lives beside a sub station in a modern house. His system is very similar to mine.
Thanks for you time in responding. Not wishing to offend but I still don't get any insight into what the change in sound has been. Better is so generalised and varies per person.
Seeing the bold phrase reminded me what is two houses away covered in wood thicket this time of year. I wonder how bad power is hundreds of yards away from the substation brought by thin overhead cables for rural folks
You visited Martin, it was his enthusiasm for mains regeneration that encouraged me to look into what they offered and their benefits. I didn't buy the luxury PS Audio product he favours but bought a cheap and effective UPS resell-able if no good) it remains.
I wonder if that I why my trial of a MCRU £40 job made sod all difference - I'd removed the problems before the "superior" cables got a look in.
The study of why some folks do get benefits from mains cables and some not would be an excellent subject for someone's PhD.
StanleyB
08-09-2013, 10:00
Seeing the bold phrase reminded me what is two houses away covered in wood thicket this time of year. I wonder how bad power is hundreds of yards away from the substation brought by thin overhead cables for rural folks.
The mains from the power station is not subjected to the kind of dirty noises found in a home. I am thinking of microwave, fridge etc type of noises.
I am particularly affected by noise on the mains line in my neighbourhood. I live in an industrial area, where the best music listening time is between 10PM Saturday and 7AM Sunday. I only have the noise from the refrigeration units at the local Sainsbury's to worry about then.
The mains from the power station is not subjected to the kind of dirty noises found in a home. I am thinking of microwave, fridge etc type of noises.
I am particularly affected by noise on the mains line in my neighbourhood. I live in an industrial area, where the best music listening time is between 10PM Saturday and 7AM Sunday. I only have the noise from the refrigeration units at the local Sainsbury's to worry about then.
I tend not to play music when the microwave is on, must be lucky with my fridge, there is a Sainsburys only 300m away but never experienced fridge misery.
When I put the mains regenerator in place the system sounds like late night listening all the time. If you haven't before try an AG1500 which is well under a grand and less than MCRU's ultimate cable. They are re-saleable if you don't like.
PS I dont think dirty electricity travels back to the substation and gets redistributed on to "legs" which are free of/low in contam
I never microwave when the hi fi is on as the food goes weird.
I hate describing sound Allan the best I can do is more dynamics and less tiring in my system I rather get back to debate about why the difference. Also replacing plugs to standard cables have a imdeiate effect that is repeatable in my system
I have no idea if living close to a power station means my friend system does not have the same issues as me or the fact that I live close to industrial factories have a bearing also, I suspect they do but have no proof
I live in very similar circumstances to Stan and over the years has associated that with my mains issues.
twickers
08-09-2013, 10:41
I tend not to play music when the microwave is on, must be lucky with my fridge, there is a Sainsburys only 300m away but never experienced fridge misery.
When I put the mains regenerator in place the system sounds like late night listening all the time. If you haven't before try an AG1500 which is well under a grand and less than MCRU's ultimate cable. They are re-saleable if you don't like.
PS I dont think dirty electricity travels back to the substation and gets redistributed on to "legs" which are free of/low in contam
Is that the one with the IEC sockets on the back, or do you have to use a mains block with it?
StanleyB
08-09-2013, 10:50
I tend not to play music when the microwave is on, must be lucky with my fridge, there is a Sainsburys only 300m away but never experienced fridge misery.
As I mentioned, I live in an industrial area. The local Sainsbury's is not just a shop front. It is also a distribution point. So they have a lot more refrigeration units than the standard shops.
PS I dont think dirty electricity travels back to the substation and gets redistributed on to "legs" which are free of/low in contam
The dirty electricity can travel along the power cables to any other electrical branch on that same line. It's not a question of first having to go back to the power station for redistribution.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 10:50
Oh boy oh boy. Just taking a break from SERIOUS hedge trimming, and browsing. I may never get back to the post I left off at. But, Marco and "believers"
Let me apologise for the term, and then beg indulgence to use it. I can see how I might have punched someone on the nose if they had used it to me. A bit like refering to gay friends as poofters, faggots or iron-hoofs, it may be meant harmlessly as a convenient colloquilism but its less fun on the receiving end. (Not that I can cope with PC to the extent of having a problem with Black plastic bags, as our neighbouring council do)
A Ronnie Corbett moment - does anyone know what pejorative term the gay community use for heterosexuals? 10 points for the right answer
Let me explain the short-hand term used, and really what this is about for me. If Martin thinks his Shelter cartridge is better than my Technics, and I think the opposite, clearly we have an issue of belief. But it is only "faith" because we haven't carried out a test that can readily be carried out - we could both listen to both cartridges. (I would quite like to actually - the Shelter is still on my shopping list once I have some fundamental issues sorted - power amp and TT upgrade). Even then, we could sit in the same room, listening to the same equipment and each "believe" that a different cartridge is "better" or "more accurate". Probably we can't ever measure for a definite answer. We are left believing our ears - our preferences - are right.
Chances are - we WILL both hear and agree the differences. It will be a question of our beliefs as to which is better. But that's still not "faith". Whatever differences we hear and interpret differently, they are perfectly possible and explicable by conventional physics. Or "natural laws" if you prefer.
Now - I don't properly understand these things. I need someone I trust who does understand them to explain them for me, and guide me. A fundamental aspect of this thread for me, is that - if there is something in mains cables I want to go back to my "gurus" and put the onus on them to acknowledge how there is a proper explanation. Not necessarily an explanation, but an accomodation within the laws of physics. And I want some ammo before I go back. I also - if the differences are sufficiently worthwile for me - that is if i "believe" the difference enhance my music listening pleasure enough - regardless of whether the gurus can sort an explanation - I want to put them in my system.
But, taking a risky punt with an analogy of my own, unchecked,
...the mains cable issue is a bit like Marco (sorry mate - picked you as the representative - my "man on the clapham omnibus") saying to me that when he stands on the top of the leaning tower of Pisa and drops a cabbage and a solid steel ball of the same size, the ball hits the ground first. Now I believe it doesn't. Marco believes it does. I know Marco is full of intelligence and credibility, a daftee maybe, but not daft, honest as the day is long, and yet I am stuck with my explanation of the world telling me this is scientifically impossible. And we get into the "magnitude of claim" issue. When the difference is very slight and very subtle, only visible to a high speed camera, then its possible. Air resistance may be the "other factor" that explains why objects of unequal mass DON't arrive at the ground at the same time. But I start out wondering whether Marco thought they landed at different times, but maybe was mistaken. It was a visual illusion corresponding with his expectation and belief. The bigger the claim gets the more I wonder if he actually let go of them simultaneously, or if the ground at the bottom of the tower is not level and higher on the side the steel ball was dropped.
Now the analogy breaks down a bit (I'm doing my best). If the steel ball falling faster helps me (like mains cables improving the sound of my music would) then I want a piece of the action. But in the absence of somebody showing me it works, because it requires me to do more than acknowledge a difference of opinion, it requires me to throw out my understanding of natural laws (not mine - clever peoples who understand physics), then if I try it for myself and it doesnt work, I view it as a different sort of "faith". It's no longer a question of believing a shiny ball is prettier than a cabbage, or believing a cabbage is prettier than a shiny ball - its about believing the laws of physics are wrong. And that is one step too far for me
And why, as a non-pejorative convenient short-hand I refer to those who claim benefits for mains cables, as "the faithful"
I would be interested in comparing the Shelter cartridge - but I don't NEED to compare it, or have Martin do a blind dem that he can genuinely prefer it, to acknowledge its worth investigation and might be better. Mains cables are different - the claims for them are not , broadly, scientifically possible, and so - since they DEFY science (apparantly) need some objective demonstration they are true and not imagined, before I can go back and beat my scientists round the head to account for an experienced phenomena. And "not broadly" and the deliberate use of wind resistance as an explanation for something which appears to defy the laws of physics, because those laws were actually just too narrowly considered, is not a carte-blanche for believing in magic.:peace:
You visited Martin, it was his enthusiasm for mains regeneration that encouraged me to look into what they offered and their benefits. I didn't buy the luxury PS Audio product he favours but bought a cheap and effective UPS resell-able if no good) it remains.
I wonder if that I why my trial of a MCRU £40 job made sod all difference - I'd removed the problems before the "superior" cables got a look in.
The study of why some folks do get benefits from mains cables and some not would be an excellent subject for someone's PhD.
What was extraordinary, Alan, was that my Ayre player already had a Kimber Powerkord in place, but John suggested we try his silver power cable and we were both amazed that it made a change for the better and that we had both heard it pretty much immediately.
As for the AG1500, I am very pleased that there is another regenerator out there doing the business for members.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 10:59
I have to go back to my hedge now, but just a brief (for me) comment on another issue. Stan and John and others are posting on here about dirty mains problems. This is quite different, and quite real as far as I am aware (help Barry, Geoff, Alan or anybody what knows). It comes back to my broad heading of "faults". I'm not going to go too deep cos it risks me talking out of my a**e, but spikes and other high frequency noise affect the mains SO much it is clearly audible - the old fridge click syndrome.
The solution, is a good mains filter. No black magic here. The point is, having filtered the dirt out of the system once, as close as possible to the hifi, it shouldn't make 2 ha'peths of difference what cable you use to take the filtered mains out of the block and into the piece of equipment. The only criteria for that particular lead, as someone so delightfully put it, is that it shouldn't spill any on the carpet
Anyway - sooner this hedge is done, and I have whapped some poor loser at tennis, the sooner I can get on with round 2 of mains cable assembly
TTFN again ;)
What cable are you using on your hedgetrimmer?
Is that the one with the IEC sockets on the back, or do you have to use a mains block with it?
It has 1 IEC and 1 13 amp sockets. You have to use a mains block, it has a speed controllable fan though. The AG500 has IEC sockets but no fan speed control.
Cheers
I hate describing sound Allan the best I can do is more dynamics and less tiring in my system I rather get back to debate about why the difference. Also replacing plugs to standard cables have a imdeiate effect that is repeatable in my system
I have no idea if living close to a power station means my friend system does not have the same issues as me or the fact that I live close to industrial factories have a bearing also, I suspect they do but have no proof
I live in very similar circumstances to Stan and over the years has associated that with my mains issues.
Thanks for that attempt. Mine made it like 1 AM all the time.
electric beach
08-09-2013, 11:24
I'm another happy camper with the AG1500. Also a new convert to an Airlink BPS. They both appear to have a different effect on the sound and I really like the result in combination. I made definate improvement by installing Mark Grant DSP mains cables to all equipment before, but now I have the obvious evaluation of taking them all out to see if they've been made redundant.
I'm not sure I want to know the answer - they just look so pretty! I can't see them, but I feel better knowing they're there... :rolleyes:
hifi_dave
08-09-2013, 11:30
I avoid all conflict as my hedge trimmer is LION powered. The hedge cutter is petrol.
I'm off to do battle with the jungle.:chainsaw:
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 11:40
What cable are you using on your hedgetrimmer?
Having sliced through the cable more times than I care to remember,and with 5 acres to care for, I have a Stihl petrol. Mind, if I'd had the new MCRU cable on the old hedge trimmer I doubt I would have sliced through it - its beefy stuff :)
When people talk about 'hedge trimmers', I can't help thinking of 'lady shaves', but that's my problem! :lol:
As you were, chaps! :D
Marco.
What was extraordinary, Alan, was that my Ayre player already had a Kimber Powerkord in place, but John suggested we try his silver power cable and we were both amazed that it made a change for the better and that we had both heard it pretty much immediately.
As for the AG1500, I am very pleased that there is another regenerator out there doing the business for members.
Martin
As I said in an earlier post I would welcome hearing a difference in system owned by a hearer. Here is a kettle lead and now we switch to an MCRU Ultimate, hear that? Eh sorry no, sounds the same to me. Thanks for the opportunity.
Bet I am full of blinding prejudice which blocks out cable difference sound due to not seeing any reason why super build mains cables do make a difference.
At least I tried
So, to summarise the 21 pages of this thread:
Some say mains cables make an important difference and some say they do not.
Oh, and David has left the forum in a huff.
Is that it?
_____________
As it happens, I've just invested in a fancy new IEC lead to feed the twin power supplies of my phonostage - double headed IEC to single plug - all cold welded contacts, copper conductors, brass pins, star earthed construction - cost £5.00 :).
twickers
08-09-2013, 11:57
It has 1 IEC and 1 13 amp sockets. You have to use a mains block, it has a speed controllable fan though. The AG500 has IEC sockets but no fan speed control.
Cheers
Thanks Alan.
When people talk about 'hedge trimmers', I can't help thinking of 'lady shaves', but that's my problem! :lol:
As you were, chaps! :D
Marco.
Tsk tsk. On a Sunday as well Marco. :lol:
electric beach
08-09-2013, 11:58
So, to summarise the 21 pages of this thread:
Some say mains cables make an important difference and some say they do not.
Oh, and David has left the forum in a huff.
Is that it?
Sometimes it's not the destination that's worthwhile, but the journey :)
Hmm... some journeys are more worthwhile than others...
electric beach
08-09-2013, 12:07
Hmm... some journeys are more worthwhile than others...
Personally I find Frank's turn of phrase always worth the price of admission :lol:
Here's a different take on the subject. I make my own mains leads. I don't use fancy plugs in that I rebuild them:D I do use very pure silver for the conductor and have a friend who individually casts parts of the plug for me in pure silver. The conductor core is 3-4mm which is tripple shielded against EMI and RFI. It's as simple as that. Now, psychologically I have made a plug as good as I can make it and to my own specifications. I dont believe that a bit of carbon fibre makes any difference and I also dont believe that copper is a better conductor than silver. I dont believe a fancy plug makes any difference. I do believe in quality of the conductor and shielding. Because I have controlled these variables I dont have to worry about the bull$hit thats peddled around the forums about how one cable is better than another.
If you don't believe in "fancy plugs", then why do you go to all that bother of casting "very pure silver" for the plug conductors? How pure is the silver? What are the fuse clips made of? Does your modified plug still conform to BS1363?
You are correct in your assertion that silver is a better conductor than copper (but only 6% better), and of course it is a much better conductor than brass (despite what it is plated with). What are your cable conductors made of?
What form does the triple shielding take? Are the three shields in contact with one another along the length of the lead, or are they mutually insulated over the cable length and only connected together at the cable ends? It makes a difference to the surface transfer impedance of the cable; which is a measure of how well the cable is screened against EMI/RFI.
Like you, I prefer to make up my own leads, including mains leads but for the latter only go to the trouble of using good quality screened three-core cable and good quality connectors (I happen to prefer the Crabtree 13A plugs over those made by MK).
Rothchild
08-09-2013, 14:23
So, to summarise the 21 pages of this thread:
Some say mains cables make an important difference and some say they do not.
Oh, and David has left the forum in a huff.
Is that it?
_____________
Nearly, the entertaining subtlety is that most of the folk who can hear it won't take it to a blind testing level, as they have nothing to prove, or don't believe they might be suceptable to expectation bias.
And yes, there was a proper flounce.
Hi Simon,
Marco, Andrew/marks abx box is a speaker level switching device so its no use for mains testing. I'm not quite sure what we'd need to be able to hot swap power chords and where it would make most sense, source or amps. I don't think introducing any variables other than the two cables under test into the system would be a satisfactory solution.
I'm sure that we could sort something out, and as I said, it would be interesting. The fact is, I have no problem whatsoever participating in blind testing, where it is done in a relaxed environment, amongst friends. Just don't expect me to consider whatever results are obtained as being conclusive - and that would also apply if they were in my favour! ;)
That's the thing, for me, about these tests: the results only 'prove' the culmination of a given set of circumstances, in a given environment, amongst a given group of people. They cannot realistically be universally applicable elsewhere or irrefutable. It strikes me that anyone who insists on applying them in such a way, is doing it largely to satisfy their prejudices.
It is folly, IMO, then to extrapolate those results as universally applying elsewhere, where at least some of the variables will be different. That is why, for example, the results of Andrew's recent amplifier ABX bake-off, reported at length on pfm, were fun to read but no more conclusive than the results would be if you and I conducted a mains cable blind test; interesting, and in some ways informative, yes, conclusive, no.
I mean, honestly, how can you expect a confident, genuinely open-minded and intelligent person, after being subjected to a blind test, say with cables, to automatically accept that the results obtained will apply with EVERY other listening experience they're likely to have in their lives??
For example, picture the scene:
You and I have conducted an ABX test with mains cables at your place, where it was 'proven' that I couldn't hear any difference between an ordinary kettle lead and my 'Ultimates'. I then go back home, 'convinced' that I've been imagining things all these years, take out all my 'foo cables' and replace them with kettle leads, only to discover then that my system sounds shit, and for normality only to be returned when my usual leads are put back in... I repeat the process, just to be sure, but no, my system still sounds pish with the kettle leads in...
Do you honestly think I'm going to dismiss what my ears are quite clearly telling me, and DEGRADE the sound of my system, just because I've been to your place and attended an ABX demo where (for goodness knows what reasons), in an entirely different system, etc, I wasn't able to identify the benefits of my own mains cables?? Of course not. I'm going to go with what I'm hearing there and then in my own system, and whatever sounds best to my ears!
And that, muchacho, is the crux of the matter.
This is why, in the final analysis, I will always trust my ears, as the final arbiter when experimenting with hi-fi, because once my (rigorous) subjective criteria have been satisfied, I can be more 'sure' of what they tell me, and that what they're telling me is more relevant to me, in my own system, than the results of any blind test in an alien environment.
Marco.
As I mentioned, I live in an industrial area. The local Sainsbury's is not just a shop front. It is also a distribution point. So they have a lot more refrigeration units than the standard shops.
The dirty electricity can travel along the power cables to any other electrical branch on that same line. It's not a question of first having to go
back to the power station for redistribution.
Mains polluted with high frequency 'hash' and noise from SMPSs will not only affect the rest of the house in which the SMPS is used, but will also affect neighbouring houses that share the same phase from the sub-station transformer. How far this pollution spreads will depend on the size of the distribution cables: large diameter conductors will have lower inductance and therefore lower inductive reactance at the high switching frequency, so the noise will be able to propagate further.
Some pollution is due to items that cause a DC component to be introduced into the mains supply thus distorting the waveform and creating harmonics. The effect of this interference will propagate much further than the noise caused by SMPS.
I believed that the reason some people could hear the difference mains cables work and an equal but opposite number of people can't, down to where they live. People who live in built up areas tend to hear the benefits and people who live in rural areas can't. I put this down to noisy mains from manufacturing, commercial premises, switch mode power supplies etc. this theory seems blown out of the water by Marco, who lives in North Wales where the dense population of sheep who don't worry about poor mains and commercialism live. Oh well back to the drawing board. I live in London along with 12 million other souls who cannot do without their phone chargers etc also reside and on that basis I can hear the difference that a good mains cable makes. Oops! That's nailed my colours to the mast.
Interesting observation Clive, and I wouldn't doubt your findings for one minute. What I cannot understand however, is how a "good mains cable" is any better at filtering out, or supressing, mains cable-bourn noise (as distinct from external EMI and RFI) than a cheap kettle lead.
To act as some form of filter, the mains cable would need to possess high series inductance and/or high shunt capacitance. To achieve that, the cable would have to consist of small diameter conductors, spaced closely together. From what I have read most, if not all, of the specialised mains cables make much of using large diameter conductors in their construction.
sq225917
08-09-2013, 15:48
Marco I wouldn't expect anyone to apply one set of results to circumstances outside the creation of those results. But if you heard no difference blind at my house. I'd naturally assume you'd try the test blind once you got home to see if the results were the same. I wouldn't be able to stop myself from re testing them..
I'm another happy camper with the AG1500. Also a new convert to an Airlink BPS. They both appear to have a different effect on the sound and I really like the result in combination. I made definate improvement by installing Mark Grant DSP mains cables to all equipment before, but now I have the obvious evaluation of taking them all out to see if they've been made redundant.
I'm not sure I want to know the answer - they just look so pretty! I can't see them, but I feel better knowing they're there... :rolleyes:
I added my super cable after the AG1500 and nothing shouted out to me. Try restoring your old cables, I'd love to hear the outcome. The AG1500 is an excellently affordable way to improve your mains for all the kit in your system. If you don't like it is still resellable due to pluses and cost value.
Marco I wouldn't expect anyone to apply one set of results to circumstances outside the creation of those results.
Lol - try telling that to the die-hard 'objectivists' on pfm, where some considered the results of a mere recording, downloaded over the Internet (here I'm referring to the DAC test Tenson, I think?) carried out, which supposedly 'proved' that all DACs sounded the same, and so those results became a 'fact'!! :mental:
It's bullshit, as there are simply too many variables applicable, in order to arrive at anything approaching a definitive conclusion on the matter. However, those with an agenda will always use the results of such tests, if they turn out in their favour, to confirm their prejudices and thus proclaim that they are 'right', rather than look more sensibly at the bigger picture.
But if you heard no difference blind at my house. I'd naturally assume you'd try the test blind once you got home to see if the results were the same.
Yup, but I've already done that with all my cables, as part of my own testing and the formulating of my standard assessment procedure.
It's very easy in my house to conduct blind tests, as I've got my Celestion 66s downstairs in the lounge, fed from the system upstairs. Therefore, all it involves is someone swapping cables upstairs (Del or a friend), where I cannot see what they're doing, and me judging the results of what I'm hearing downstairs in the lounge, where all I have is a pair of speakers in front of me.
The results showed that I could clearly and repeatedly identify my 'exotic' main cables from a bog-standard kettle lead. So tell me, on that basis, what opinion should I form on the matter? ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
08-09-2013, 16:29
I can assure you, Andy, that WON'T be happening. We are proud of the depth of trade account members we have here on AoS, but it's equally important that we retain our impartiality and neutrality. We each have our favourites, naturally, but no trader will do business as the official voice of this forum.
Nice to hear.
I know from past experience that I can hear no difference between cables unsighted and that's using 3mm 4nines silver per conductor with silver Hubble UK plug and silver wattgate IEC plug. I never managed to get better than 50/50 and have never been able to measure a difference either.
Thats ok in my camp. I dont care how pure the silver is its the fact that its a better conductor than copper and my supplier just happens to supply high quality silver. I too do not believe you can hear a difference between the various 3/4/5/6 Nines silver, again I think its bullshit. I just want my equipment to get as much juice as possible.
So, to summarise the 21 pages of this thread:
Some say mains cables make an important difference and some say they do not.
Oh, and David has left the forum in a huff.
Is that it?
_____________
As it happens, I've just invested in a fancy new IEC lead to feed the twin power supplies of my phonostage - double headed IEC to single plug - all cold welded contacts, copper conductors, brass pins, star earthed construction - cost £5.00 :).
Pretty much, great observation.
If you don't believe in "fancy plugs", then why do you go to all that bother of casting "very pure silver" for the plug conductors? How pure is the silver? What are the fuse clips made of? Does your modified plug still conform to BS1363?
You are correct in your assertion that silver is a better conductor than copper (but only 6% better), and of course it is a much better conductor than brass (despite what it is plated with). What are your cable conductors made of?
What form does the triple shielding take? Are the three shields in contact with one another along the length of the lead, or are they mutually insulated over the cable length and only connected together at the cable ends? It makes a difference to the surface transfer impedance of the cable; which is a measure of how well the cable is screened against EMI/RFI.
Like you, I prefer to make up my own leads, including mains leads but for the latter only go to the trouble of using good quality screened three-core cable and good quality connectors (I happen to prefer the Crabtree 13A plugs over those made by MK).
Barry,
Firstly I dont care for silver purity. I dont believe it makes any difference, as stated my supplier gives me a very good deal and the silver he supplies is very pure, so why not? I use a bog standard fuse as I believe it does bugger all to sound quality. As for BS1363, probably not but if my house burns down thats my fault isnt it ;) I dont have "fuse clips" because its all casted as one part silver, this minimises plug parts and connections. With regards shielding. All conductors have flexible teflon PTFE and then there are several layers of Cu braid seperated with 0.1mm EVA so they dont come into contact with each other. Now with regards to the plugs, well I use any design that enables all the conductors to fit with a little space. Again I dont believe the plug has any effect on sonic qualities. I think people worry too much over the various aspect of a mains cable. To me all I want to do is get a good supply of juice to my kit. I then let my P10 do the rest.
Hope this helps
A
sq225917
08-09-2013, 16:47
Andrew, of course I still use the silver loom..... I don't think it sounds different but I sure as shit ain't selling it... ;-)
Marco, Rob and Simon crack me up with there it all sounds the same line, yet simon still sells upgrades to audio equipment... You couldn't make it up.
Wakefield Turntables
08-09-2013, 17:25
Just a couple of things to clarify. I dont make up or sell cables to anyone else, so I have no agenda. Secondly, Barry, I use 3-4mm diameter solid silver core conductors.
Just a couple of things to clarify. I dont make up or sell cables to anyone else, so I have no agenda. Secondly, Barry, I use 3-4mm diameter solid silver core conductors.
Out of curiosity, I would still be interested to know the purity of the silver you use. Is it 'Stirling silver'?
3-4mm diameter conductors? How do you attach such large diameter conductors to the connectors? How are they insulated? And what is EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate?)?
I think you are being somewhat cavalier in your attitude to safety. What if it was an innocent third party that was injured?
Wakefield Turntables
08-09-2013, 17:59
Out of curiosity, I would still be interested to know the purity of the silver you use. Is it 'Stirling silver'?
3-4mm diameter conductors? How do you attach such large diameter conductors to the connectors? How are they insulated? And what is EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate?)?
I think you are being somewhat cavalier in your attitude to safety. What if it was an innocent third party that was injured?
No, its not stirling silver. That conductors are connected via a laser welder.
Marco, Rob and Simon crack me up with there it all sounds the same line, yet simon still sells upgrades to audio equipment... You couldn't make it up.
Tell me about it. It's a hoot! I just don't understand why some people insist on having 'two faces' on forums: one, representing the person that they really are, and the other, the one which, for ever reason, they wish to pretend to be. Why complicate matters so much? :scratch:
With me, what you see is what you get. I don't believe in being anything else but 100% honest, and thus keeping things simple!!
Marco.
sq225917
08-09-2013, 18:30
I agree, I'm never one to call a spade, a multi-disiplinary, handheld, foot operated, portable, substance transfer device.
Just a couple of things to clarify. I dont make up or sell cables to anyone else, so I have no agenda. Secondly, Barry, I use 3-4mm diameter solid silver core conductors.
With that thickness of silver conductor, triple shielded and solid silver plug parts, I'm intrigued to know what a one metre cable cost to make?
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 18:56
It may have taken a while
There were more than a few strange oaths muttered . But - when the chips are down, look for 2 slices of white bread, and make a butty
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/20130908_194435_zps6270a282.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/20130908_194435_zps6270a282.jpg.html)
I mean - how could you wire up your HiFi with anything less, and seriously expect it to make a half-decent sound
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/20130908_194511_zps38c6db20.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/20130908_194511_zps38c6db20.jpg.html)
A few cautionary notes.
1 I bloody hope the crimps and faraday cage are critical to the effect, cos to say they caused a certain angst does no justice to it
2 You get better with practice
3 When MCRU state on their site "Caution - this is a DIY product and requires assembly" - DO NOT, as I did, rush to award the Basil Fawlty award for stating the "bleedin' obvious", nor mutter "just how hard can it be to wire up a plug anyway"
You have been warned :eek:
Thanks for one of the most interesting and thoroughly entertaining threads I've seen for ages. Brilliant reading! :)
Just keep in mind that your pretty new mains leads are nothing more than basic armoured three core mains cable and nothing more. All they offer over a kettle lead is the Faraday cage provided by the shield, but I expect you know that anyway :rolleyes:
It seems to me the best way you could benefit from this cable would be to ditch the IEC plug and hard wire it into whatever it is feeding.
agree, a thoroughly entertaining thread!
walpurgis
08-09-2013, 19:23
I mean - how could you wire up your HiFi with anything less, and seriously expect it to make a half-decent sound
Fancy, pretty and expensive it may be. But adding any benefit? I have doubts.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 19:28
Fancy, pretty and expensive it may be. But adding any benefit? I have doubts.
Yeah, but they haven't spilled any mains on the csrpet :)
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 19:36
Thanks for one of the most interesting and thoroughly entertaining threads I've seen for ages. Brilliant reading! :)
Aw shucks thanks. I'm blushing now. See Gordon. I told u we got fan mail. Laurel & hardy. Morecambe and wise. Couldn't do it without my straight man :lol:
The hard wired route would be interesting
Aw shucks thanks. I'm blushing now. See Gordon. I told u we got fan mail. Laurel & hardy. Morecambe and wise. Couldilar) n't do it without my straight man :lol:
You're welcome. However, I still eagerly await your results. Nothing funny like, it's just that I recently conducted the same (well, very similar) experiment!
:)
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 19:56
The hard wired route would be interesting
For the minute they are just "burning in". They are plugged into my filtered mains block, and not direct to the wall as I said I would do. But one interesting thought already on the "faulty" theme is those iee's.
Now the grand wazoo has warned me there are ladies present (would be nice if one of them popped up to say "hi") so I have to be careful what I say, but not only are these a lot stiffer than my usual ones, they are a noticeably tighter fit - quite an effort to get them in. :eek:
I do wonder whether there is an improved contact and that may have an effect. But since I don't regularly wiggle them about maybe not ;)
Fancy, pretty and expensive it may be. But adding any benefit? I have doubts.
Get a grip, daftee - they were a whole TENNER each!! What do you buy for people at Christmas - an orange? :lol:
;)
Marco.
P.S Also, let Richard make up his own mind, rather than trying to pre-empt the outcome.
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 20:11
Get a grip, daftee - they were a whole TENNER each!! What are you used to getting for your Christmas - an orange? :lol:
;)
Marco.
Hey. They were £15. Mine's longer than the average. You don't know my dad by any chance? He's always going on about getting an orange for Christmas :eyebrows:
Or, maybe a piece of coal?
julesd68
08-09-2013, 20:27
Just keep in mind that your pretty new mains leads are nothing more than basic armoured three core mains cable and nothing more.
I saw some Audio Note Isis mains cable the other day retailing at £120 per unterminated metre which seemed to be just basic three core with a bog standard grey plastic sleeve - couldn't see any fancy shielding ...
The gauges of the copper conductors look quite thick but I just don't get what you are paying for ... :scratch:
realysm42
08-09-2013, 20:28
:popcorn:
I saw some Audio Note Isis mains cable the other day retailing at £120 per unterminated metre which seemed to be just basic three core with a bog standard grey plastic sleeve - couldn't see any fancy shielding ...
The gauges of the copper conductors look quite thick but I just don't get what you are paying for ... :scratch:
The distributer's Ferrari?
Tell me about it. It's a hoot! I just don't understand why some people insist on having 'two faces' on forums: one, representing the person that they really are, and the other, the one which, for ever reason, they wish to pretend to be. Why complicate matters so much? :scratch:
With me, what you see is what you get. I don't believe in being anything else but 100% honest, and thus keeping things simple!!
Marco.
With me, you never know what you're going to get, this keeps people on their toes and reduces the ever-increasing predictability of life.
Can I have a walnut? :)
Shut it, or I'll crack yours in a minute! :ner:
Marco.
With me, you never know what you're going to get, this keeps people on their toes and reduces the ever-increasing predictability of life.
And that's why we love you, Joe!
Marco.
sq225917
08-09-2013, 21:16
So which end is the cable shield attached to, wall or hifi component end? Or is it not attached to anything?
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 21:18
So which end is the cable shield attached to, wall or hifi component end? Or is it not attached to anything?
Wall end.
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