View Full Version : Mains cables, myths, magic, laws of physics and dambusters
Oldpinkman
08-09-2013, 21:25
Thanks for asking. Got beaten 6-1 by a 13 year old kid. Was closer than it sounds, but even so...:brickwall:
The Grand Wazoo
08-09-2013, 22:05
I reckon you're using the wrong racket there. The tendency is to slice the ball, but with no spin - I expect you did a lot of this.....
http://img4-3.realsimple.timeinc.net/images/1002/solution-tennis-ball_300.jpg
Surprised you won that one game, to be honest!
Richard Kimber
08-09-2013, 22:21
This thread got started when I wasn't looking and we're on page 26 already. :rolleyes:
FWIW, I experimented with better cables than came with the box, and it seemed to me that there was an improvement with the 'source' units, but I couldn't hear any improvement with units lower down the chain. I don't think they made any difference to the amps, but the streamer and pre-amp seemed to benefit.
- Richard.
Ah Richard (Oldpinkman), get it. Basically you are a tease, aren't you?
Actually, I'll hazard a guess that you, being in the industry have had this thing worked out years ago. This current thread is for you a simple wind up for punters here. I'm starting to see you, Richard in a slightly different light and what I see is unattractive. If I am right, all the time, you've been dragging us along into a subversive con. That makes sense considering your industry involvement. It would be gob smacking, as you are a product manufacturer, if you had not dealt with mains cables and their function a long time ago. I think you are playing with punters here and if that is right, it does you absolutely no credit, infact, it is a very big black mark against you and your products.
Happy to be proved wrong but now, you will need to argue in a very forthright style to turn around what I think you are about. I think you are being considerably disingenuous and treating members here with a significant lack of respect.
If I have got this wrong, so beit. It is simply my interpretation on the game I think you are playing. If you are not playing the game I suspect you are, please advise accordingly. Reading all your posts, coupled with an understanding that you have been in the industry for years, I have to conclude this whole thread is a spoof on your part to wind up AOS members, no doubt to feed your own twisted pleasure.....a bit like another manufacturer in Wales which we can't speak about.
Thereafter, if I've got it all completely wrong, please respond accordingly and I will happily apologise. What gets me is that you've been in the industry for such a long time and after all that, you now want to engage a punters forum in this subject. Sorry, I don't think you are that simplistic and I am disappointed that I and several others have been sucked into your scheme. if I am right, you've been...............I can't find a word....reader, choose your own.
walpurgis
08-09-2013, 22:38
'Cor Blimey'
southall-1998
08-09-2013, 22:40
This is one awesome movie !!
realysm42
08-09-2013, 22:48
Jammy is a twat though, just sayin'.
I saw some Audio Note Isis mains cable the other day retailing at £120 per unterminated metre which seemed to be just basic three core with a bog standard grey plastic sleeve - couldn't see any fancy shielding ...
The gauges of the copper conductors look quite thick but I just don't get what you are paying for ... :scratch:
That's nothing! I have had un-screened, un-clad, plaited three-conductor mains cable, retailing for over £300 a metre tried out on my system. Not only did it not make the slightest difference to the sound quality, I had to actually repair the cable: so poor was the construction!
The Grand Wazoo
08-09-2013, 22:54
....ah yes, but it's got pretty colours Barry!
Have you tried using it as a suppository, Barry? I know sometimes you've complained about being a little 'bunged up'.... Insert the 13A plug end first, for an extra thrill! :eyebrows:
Marco.
So which end is the cable shield attached to, wall or hifi component end? Or is it not attached to anything?
The point of lowest electrical potential, that is the mains earth at the wall socket or distribution board. If you don't connect it to anything, it ceases to have any effect whatsoever; the shield just 'floats'.
Have you tried using it as a suppository, Barry? I know sometimes you've complained about being a little 'bunged up'.... Insert the 13A plug end first, for an extra thrill! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Have I? Remind me!
Tabatha mentioned it to me after she performed your last colonic! ;)
Marco.
Ah Richard (Oldpinkman), get it. Basically you are a tease, aren't you?
Actually, I'll hazard a guess that you, being in the industry have had this thing worked out years ago. This current thread is for you a simple wind up for punters here. I'm starting to see you, Richard in a slightly different light and what I see is unattractive. If I am right, all the time, you've been dragging us along into a subversive con. That makes sense considering your industry involvement. It would be gob smacking, as you are a product manufacturer, if you had not dealt with mains cables and their function a long time ago. I think you are playing with punters here and if that is right, it does you absolutely no credit, infact, it is a very big black mark against you and your products.
Happy to be proved wrong but now, you will need to argue in a very forthright style to turn around what I think you are about. I think you are being considerably disingenuous and treating members here with a significant lack of respect.
If I have got this wrong, so beit. It is simply my interpretation on the game I think you are playing. If you are not playing the game I suspect you are, please advise accordingly. Reading all your posts, coupled with an understanding that you have been in the industry for years, I have to conclude this whole thread is a spoof on your part to wind up AOS members, no doubt to feed your own twisted pleasure.....a bit like another manufacturer in Wales which we can't speak about.
Thereafter, if I've got it all completely wrong, please respond accordingly and I will happily apologise. What gets me is that you've been in the industry for such a long time and after all that, you now want to engage a punters forum in this subject. Sorry, I don't think you are that simplistic and I am disappointed that I and several others have been sucked into your scheme. if I am right, you've been...............I can't find a word....reader, choose your own.
Not so! I have found this whole thread to be interesting and conducted, for the most part, in a frank, honest, open and un-acrimonious nature, that we take for granted (and expect) here on AoS.
If some have taken umbrage with what has been written/discussed - well, that's their problem.
Yours, an open-minded 'cable sceptic'.
Not so! I have found this whole thread to be interesting and conducted, for the most part, in a frank, honest, open and un-acrimonious nature, that we take for granted (and expect) here on AoS.
If some have taken umbrage with what has been written/discussed - well, that's their problem.
Yours, an open-minded 'cable sceptic'.
I don't disagree with you, but you have failed to address what I have specifically said about Richard (Oldpinkman) just like everyone else replying after I posted my controversial post on him and his agenda. Your 'Not so!' statement in consequence is a nonsense. It really means nothing at all. What you have said thereafter is fine IMO. I'm looking for something more specific bassed on my belief that Richard has been stringing us all along for some time now. It is interesting that following my admittedly inflammatory post, no one has bothered to comment specifically, including, surprisingly, Marco. That really makes me wonder if AOS really is the forum of independent thinkers, but actually, maybe it is tucked under the wings of those in the industry it prefers to patronise. Why embrace Pink (considering what Richard appears to be up to here) and at the same time ban the NVA proprietor and his fan boys? We shall see.
Sorry, been in this position several times before here. I can anticipate me making an exit from this forum once again. I just seem to be unable to get on with it's disproportionate (as expressed and revealed in practice) ethos.
It is interesting that following my admittedly inflammatory post, no one has bothered to comment specifically. That really makes me wonder if AOS really is the forum of independent thinkers and actually, maybe it is tucked under the wings of those in the industry they prefer to patronise.
Lol... I suspect that sometimes you have the tendency to 'overthink' things, Greg! As far as I'm concerned, I was simply waiting to read Richard's reply to your post, which hasn't materialised yet, and then we'll see what happens :)
Marco.
I don't disagree with you, but you have failed to address what I have specifically said about Richard (Oldpinkman) just like everyone else replying after I posted my controversial post on him and his agenda. Your 'Not so!' statement in consequence is a nonsense. It really means nothing at all. What you have said thereafter is fine IMO. I'm looking for something more specific bassed on my belief that Richard has been stringing us all along for some time now. It is interesting that following my admittedly inflammatory post, no one has bothered to comment specifically, including, surprisingly, Marco. That really makes me wonder if AOS really is the forum of independent thinkers, but actually, maybe it is tucked under the wings of those in the industry it prefers to patronise. Why embrace Pink (considering what Richard appears to be up to here) and at the same time ban the NVA proprietor and his fan boys? We shall see.
Sorry, been in this position several times before here. I can anticipate me making an exit from this forum once again. I just seem to be unable to get on with it's disproportionate (as expressed and revealed in practice) ethos.
I'm puzzled Greg - Richard's OP might have been provocative, but that's sometimes necessary to instigate a lively discussion. Nothing that I have read from him has suggested he has "an agenda", or indeed that he has been "stringing us along". Both proponents and antagonists on this subject have supplied interesting replies, and provided food for thought.
I think Marco has shown equanimity, balance and common sense in his replies: it all comes down to the system used, the environment and one's ears, in commentating on the efficacy or otherwise of exotic mains cables (or for that matter, with any interconnect or cable). Ultimately, one can never prove who is right or who is wrong: I hear my system, in my environment with my ears - you hear your system, in your environment with your ears. Richard reported his findings on the subject, and whilst he may have muddied his subsequent arguments with a certain amount of logorrhoea, simply restated his position on the matter.
I happen to believe that there are some vendors of "high-end mains cables", perportedly offering no end of supposed advantages over more humble components, who charge a ridiculous amount for their products. I also believe that there are an equal number of vendors who offer a sensible, well made product for a reasonable price to those customers who feel, or are unable to make up leads for themselves.
Finally, discussion of NVA products has not been banned. The ban on discussion is with the NVA forum (The Hi-Fi Subjectivist) and with its propietor. This is for well-documented reasons, as Marco has outlined in his post.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 05:20
I reckon you're using the wrong racket there. The tendency is to slice the ball, but with no spin - I expect you did a lot of this.....
http://img4-3.realsimple.timeinc.net/images/1002/solution-tennis-ball_300.jpg
Surprised you won that one game, to be honest!
:lolsign:
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 05:35
Ah Richard (Oldpinkman), get it. Basically you are a tease, aren't you?
Actually, I'll hazard a guess that you, being in the industry have had this thing worked out years ago. This current thread is for you a simple wind up for punters here. I'm starting to see you, Richard in a slightly different light and what I see is unattractive. If I am right, all the time, you've been dragging us along into a subversive con. That makes sense considering your industry involvement. It would be gob smacking, as you are a product manufacturer, if you had not dealt with mains cables and their function a long time ago. I think you are playing with punters here and if that is right, it does you absolutely no credit, infact, it is a very big black mark against you and your products.
Happy to be proved wrong but now, you will need to argue in a very forthright style to turn around what I think you are about. I think you are being considerably disingenuous and treating members here with a significant lack of respect.
If I have got this wrong, so beit. It is simply my interpretation on the game I think you are playing. If you are not playing the game I suspect you are, please advise accordingly. Reading all your posts, coupled with an understanding that you have been in the industry for years, I have to conclude this whole thread is a spoof on your part to wind up AOS members, no doubt to feed your own twisted pleasure.....a bit like another manufacturer in Wales which we can't speak about.
Thereafter, if I've got it all completely wrong, please respond accordingly and I will happily apologise. What gets me is that you've been in the industry for such a long time and after all that, you now want to engage a punters forum in this subject. Sorry, I don't think you are that simplistic and I am disappointed that I and several others have been sucked into your scheme. if I am right, you've been...............I can't find a word....reader, choose your own.
I was managing director of pink triangle about 20 years ago for a year whilst neal underwent treatment for thyroid cancer. I was involved with pt before that whilst at uni. I've been friends with arthur since we met, but hadn't met him for at least 6 years until my pip preamp failed terminally and I started going on a few forums to try to track down owen
I run a chartered accountancy practice in kent - full time. Arthur, at funk has no mains leads, and in spite if apparantly sell8ng a directional interconnect for which I took the piss mercilessly has no significant leads I am aware of. I have absolutely no financial involvement with him or any other hifi business whatsoever.
I have a romantic yearning to get owen to lay out an up to date pip circuit with the power amp that never was and maybe help him organise limited volume production and distribution, but don't hold your breath. Mostly I am just enjoying his company and his mrs gets on like a house on fire with mine.
In return for years of listening to arthur whine about hmrc and life etc he lets me play in his toy cupboard when I have time.
No agenda. Just having fun. I like to understand stuff and don't suffer fools gladly
:ner:
Sorry, been in this position several times before here. I can anticipate me making an exit from this forum once again. I just seem to be unable to get on with it's disproportionate (as expressed and revealed in practice) ethos.
Eh??
I like you, Greg, and your posts are generally always interesting to read and well written, but man, you can be a right funny bugger sometimes, living in your own wee world....
In that respect, regarding the above in blue (especially Richard's supposed part in it, and what that's got to do with our ban on discussion of RD and his forum), I honestly haven't got the slightest single clue what you're on about :scratch: :confused:
Perhaps you would care to explain, or maybe you were pished? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 06:04
Greg
I woke up to your comments, and whizzed off a quickie on my hand-job whilst in bed. Down at my PC, with time to reflect, I'm not sure quite what caused your "the bath is full" moment. Was it the reference to Dave not charging enough for making the cables. This was (an apparantly failed) attempt to acknowledge my own ineptitude, and the frustrations of trying to use those bloody crimps with my varifocal glasses and presbyopia. The loss of sight in one eye also meant I missed the hole on a few occasions. I had to resort to the "alien headgear" as the kids call it
(This is not for the squeamish)
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/20130908_193953_zpsb72c78ae.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/20130908_193953_zpsb72c78ae.jpg.html)
Apologies if that has put anyone off their breakfast :lol:
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 06:08
If anyone needs a good accountant, my details are, and always have been on my signature, but not one to miss an opportunity for promotion
www.tb-a.co.uk
Marco - if I get any takers, can you change my status to trade please ? ;)
(This is not for the squeamish)
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/20130908_193953_zpsb72c78ae.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/20130908_193953_zpsb72c78ae.jpg.html)
Apologies if that has put anyone off their breakfast :lol:
Wow, that's just WRONG! :eek:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
09-09-2013, 07:47
I see your wierd selfie and raise you one of mine.
That thing on my chin is a BEARD:eyebrows:
Just get on with it and try the damn cable already!
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 08:53
I see your wierd selfie and raise you one of mine.
That thing on my chin is a BEARD:eyebrows:
I had to wear goggles to get my effect :lol:
Rare Bird
09-09-2013, 08:56
Wow, that's just WRONG! :eek:
:lol:
In response to Greg's view of this forum, and with no particular axe to grind at all, perhaps I can offer a little balance as someone who is in the industry? First and foremost, I am an engineer, not a salesman. I have been chartered about 21 years now. If you check out my website, you wont see any mains cables for sale, because I don't offer them any more. Yes, they could be profitable, not least because their construction is not difficult or particularly time consuming depending on cables used and connectors used. I have made up several pairs in the past for customers who have asked me to, and not because they're a product line, although I did have one in the line up a long time back.
The reason for this is very simple. If mains pollution is a problem, then there are units like the AG500 or 1500 which do a great job at providing clean, stable mains current which cables do not. Also, where cables are concerned, the shielding is rarely a blindingly obvious improvement unless you have particularly serious RFI or eMI issues, and even then, a lot of decently designed and built amplifiers should have decent filters designed into their power supplies. There are things like CDPs or DACs which do emit interference and using shielded cables with these devices can sometimes (not always) be beneficial. However, for the most part, any differences that I have either measured or heard have been in relation to very low amperage current draws where it's the connection between plug and socket or IEC and kit that tends to be the weak spot, so my conclusion has always been to use a decent fitting plug and good quality IEC with an adequate cable rating and ALWAYS to use a fused plug. There is no good reason not to protect your cabling against catching fire in the event of a kit fault and overload by not fusing the plug and it's what the BS/EN guidelines provide for. To do anything else is just removing a sensible layer of safety redundancy for no good reason.
Also, the trend towards expensive mains cables is really rather recent, perhaps 10 to 15 years? Prior to this, and certainly say 20 to 30 years back, lots of kit came with captive leads which to my mind are a far more sensible option since they cut out one of the fallible connection points.
If you really must have a nice looking mains lead, or would like something with a better quality plug etc, then a more sensible route for any sort of performance gain imho would be to do away with the IEC socket on your kit, and have a new cable hard-wired into the power supply leaving an adequate length of cable to make it to your sockets. It sometimes also pays dividends to replace the wall socket with an un-switched one, (not expensive) or a firmer fitting one (these can be expensive from hifi manufacturers but can be had cheaper from medical electrical suppliers or other electrical outlets where the whole wall socket is much higher quality). That seems like an awful lot of bother, but if improving performance is your goal, you could pay to have all your kit hard wired and decent wall sockets fitted probably for less than the cost of the same number of expensive hifi mains cables.
That's my personal take. Yes, I still make up leads to customer order because I have a decent relationship with my customers and if that's what they want, that's what they get, but they also get my lecture above first in an attempt to sway them! My take on interconnect cables and speaker cables is diametrically opposed because there are so many badly designed cables in use and even worse connectors, that improvements are more eaily made and demonstrated, but that's a different story.
Gordon Steadman
09-09-2013, 09:17
If you really must have a nice looking mains lead, or would like something with a better quality plug etc, then a more sensible route for any sort of performance gain imho would be to do away with the IEC socket on your kit, and have a new cable hard-wired into the power supply leaving an adequate length of cable to make it to your sockets. It sometimes also pays dividends to replace the wall socket with an un-switched one, (not expensive) or a firmer fitting one (these can be expensive from hifi manufacturers but can be had cheaper from medical electrical suppliers or other electrical outlets where the whole wall socket is much higher quality). That seems like an awful lot of bother, but if improving performance is your goal, you could pay to have all your kit hard wired and decent wall sockets fitted probably for less than the cost of the same number of expensive hifi mains cables.
Absolutely, the one gain I did hear with the cables Dave sent me was with the Marantz CD63 I am using temp. I wired it in direct to replace the old thin lead and the difference was there, if very subtle indeed.
Very good post Paul and very much my thoughts apart from the low amperage part where IME the quality of the IEC connection is of importance under high amperage conditions such as with a power amp with a cap input supply where the current pulses can be many times higher than the average amplifier draw.
In response to Greg's view of this forum, and with no particular axe to grind at all, perhaps I can offer a little balance as someone who is in the industry?
Paul, you seem to have understood/have an inking as to what Greg was on about? If so, perhaps you could explain it to me, as I don't have a scooby...? :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
09-09-2013, 10:05
There is logic and common sense in this post,
I too am a great believer in reducing the amount of connections and plugs [where possible] in an audio system, however, as Paul has quite rightly pointed out, safety has to be the top priority when contemplating any modifications to mains powered equipment...with my system, i did things slightly different by removing as many mains plugs from the equation while still retaining the correct safety fuses for each piece of equipment and cabling etc...Good post Paul.
A...
In response to Greg's view of this forum, and with no particular axe to grind at all, perhaps I can offer a little balance as someone who is in the industry? First and foremost, I am an engineer, not a salesman. I have been chartered about 21 years now. If you check out my website, you wont see any mains cables for sale, because I don't offer them any more. Yes, they could be profitable, not least because their construction is not difficult or particularly time consuming depending on cables used and connectors used. I have made up several pairs in the past for customers who have asked me to, and not because they're a product line, although I did have one in the line up a long time back.
The reason for this is very simple. If mains pollution is a problem, then there are units like the AG500 or 1500 which do a great job at providing clean, stable mains current which cables do not. Also, where cables are concerned, the shielding is rarely a blindingly obvious improvement unless you have particularly serious RFI or eMI issues, and even then, a lot of decently designed and built amplifiers should have decent filters designed into their power supplies. There are things like CDPs or DACs which do emit interference and using shielded cables with these devices can sometimes (not always) be beneficial. However, for the most part, any differences that I have either measured or heard have been in relation to very low amperage current draws where it's the connection between plug and socket or IEC and kit that tends to be the weak spot, so my conclusion has always been to use a decent fitting plug and good quality IEC with an adequate cable rating and ALWAYS to use a fused plug. There is no good reason not to protect your cabling against catching fire in the event of a kit fault and overload by not fusing the plug and it's what the BS/EN guidelines provide for. To do anything else is just removing a sensible layer of safety redundancy for no good reason.
Also, the trend towards expensive mains cables is really rather recent, perhaps 10 to 15 years? Prior to this, and certainly say 20 to 30 years back, lots of kit came with captive leads which to my mind are a far more sensible option since they cut out one of the fallible connection points.
If you really must have a nice looking mains lead, or would like something with a better quality plug etc, then a more sensible route for any sort of performance gain imho would be to do away with the IEC socket on your kit, and have a new cable hard-wired into the power supply leaving an adequate length of cable to make it to your sockets. It sometimes also pays dividends to replace the wall socket with an un-switched one, (not expensive) or a firmer fitting one (these can be expensive from hifi manufacturers but can be had cheaper from medical electrical suppliers or other electrical outlets where the whole wall socket is much higher quality). That seems like an awful lot of bother, but if improving performance is your goal, you could pay to have all your kit hard wired and decent wall sockets fitted probably for less than the cost of the same number of expensive hifi mains cables.
That's my personal take. Yes, I still make up leads to customer order because I have a decent relationship with my customers and if that's what they want, that's what they get, but they also get my lecture above first in an attempt to sway them! My take on interconnect cables and speaker cables is diametrically opposed because there are so many badly designed cables in use and even worse connectors, that improvements are more eaily made and demonstrated, but that's a different story.
Very good post Paul and very much my thoughts apart from the low amperage part where IME the quality of the IEC connection is of importance under high amperage conditions such as with a power amp with a cap input supply where the current pulses can be many times higher than the average amplifier draw.
What I found with some connections (ok, I deliberately chose poor quality IECs) is that particularly where corrosion of the socket pins was evident, there was measurably greater DC resistance across the junction and with low level current draw into some power supplies this could be evident sonically in loss of detail/output but only at very low levels. Direct coupling the lead eliminates this potential issue. For the higher current rating, yes, you also have a point but that issue can again be eliminated by the use of hard wiring.
There is logic and common sense in this post,
I too am a great believer in reducing the amount of connections and plugs [where possible] in an audio system, however, as Paul has quite rightly pointed out, safety has to be the top priority when contemplating any modifications to mains powered equipment...with my system, i did things slightly different by removing as many mains plugs from the equation while still retaining the correct safety fuses for each piece of equipment and cabling etc...
A...
:respect:
In response to Greg's view of this forum, and with no particular axe to grind at all, perhaps I can offer a little balance as someone who is in the industry? First and foremost, I am an engineer, not a salesman.
Informative post, thanks. As you are an (electrical?) engineer, may I tax you with this:
At page seven of the online manual for Simaudio's Moon 100D Dac (which can be found at http://www.simaudio.com/pdf/MOON_100D_Manual.pdf) they say this:
"In order to obtain the maximum performance from your audio system, we strongly recommend that the power supply cord not come into physical contact with any of the interconnect cables running to and from your 100D. In the event that this can’t be avoided, you should ensure that any cables coming into contact with each other are crossed at ninety degree angle to minimize the contact area."
Cables carrying current have an electrical field, so my question is how far would this field extend? 1mm, 1cm? I have no idea. It seems to me shielding could be beneficial, not to protect the mains cable, but to protect other delicate signals from the mains cable, if such a thing is possible.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 10:12
I have a day job you know. And neighbours - so not before 9am. This will be a long one I'm afraid - whilst its fresh in my mind (though I took notes)
Conclusion first, excuses afterwards.
Conclusion: I cannot conclusively hear any difference. I would not risk 5 pence in a bet I could tell in a blind test. I would bet £10 with as many zeros added as you like that I can tell Integral from Arcam 10P, FX3 from F5, Goldring 1022 from Technics cartridge. It comes back to my very early post about differences that matter (all of those ones I would risk a bet on a blind test) and ones which don't. I could walk into the room after a week and tell you which arm is playing blind. No A:B's needed. Ditto the cartridge and power amp. To my surprise, the power amp most of all really matters - I need to get shot of it (not that it's bad - just leaving me wanting). And that's the first excuse.;)
Further conclusion: I thought I heard loads of differences - but kept changing my mind.
Gordon PM'd me a link to a 1981 HFN/RR article about hifi fetishism during this. I took a real fetishist approach - notepad in hand this morning.
So - last night, just plugged em in and listened - first time in a couple of days I had listened to anything, only time for a few minutes before the curfew. Plugged into my distribution block
Joan Armatrading - "I am not in love". Wow! Is it louder? A really "in the room" performance. OMG I may be joining the faithful
Katie Melua - "Nobody knows you when you are down and out - Superb. Rich - "real" (it always is)
Just before going to bed, remembered I had changed the resistors on the header!!!
This morning MCRU was left in , so up first. (still in mains block)
Genesis 2nds out - Firth of Fifth
"cymbals clearer" (I have been having a bit of a cymbals thing with this new cartridge)
Unstressed
Great drum break
Kettle leads
Cymbals every bit as good
Quieter
Bass more tuneful
Drums even crisper
(I think this "difference" was 2 things. Listening more closely on things I had noticed first time, and just maybe, the stylus cleaning the record during the first play)
Turn up the wick a bit (Still "comfortable")
Leave kettle leads in to go first
Janis Ian - Restless Eyes - title track
Really good
Bass weight and pace
Bass guitar like real
Mid - vocals bit strident (record label)
cymbals are back!!
switch to MCRU - still in mains block
Same
Quieter (record cleaning?)
Cleaner?
Strident vocals again
Back to Katie M "Gold in them hills"
MCRU - direct to wall (extension lead not batteries found for Pink Triangle - also used when switching to kettle leads)
Record noisy
Bit Forward (arm?)
VERY F5!
Smooth - separate instruments but F5
remember acoustic guitar left channel
Switch to kettle leads in mains block (means taking stuff apart to get them to reach the wall direct- TT power supply still direct from extension lead)
Less strident ?
Noticed guitar earlier
IDENTICAL!
Other Excuses :
These are inexpensive cables
Although subject to power cuts regularly, I suspect our mains is pretty good. No obvious difference not using my filter block
Would rather have FX3, classical music, and the Integral amp for a definitive evaluation
Not really listened enough to DEFINITELY say no difference, but any differences which exist are tiny
enough for now - that do you Macca? :cool:
Paul, you seem to have understood/have an inking as to what Greg was on about? If so, perhaps you could explain it to me, as I don't have a scooby...? :)
Marco.
I'm not 100% myself Marco, but my take on it was that any dealer involvement at all or the opinions of any dealer are suspect. Whilst it IS a healthy thing to retain some scepticism of dealer opinions, some of us are genuinely not out to con/rob anyone and designer/manufacturer/dealers like myself are also in this for the love of music and hifi. I hope that my response demonstrated that there is an honest and sensible approach to this topic that doesn't need to drag the argument down to the lowest common denominator, that's all.
Informative post, thanks. As you are an (electrical?) engineer, may I tax you with this:
At page seven of the online manual for Simaudio's Moon 100D Dac (which can be found at http://www.simaudio.com/pdf/MOON_100D_Manual.pdf) they say this:
"In order to obtain the maximum performance from your audio system, we strongly recommend that the power supply cord not come into physical contact with any of the interconnect cables running to and from your 100D. In the event that this can’t be avoided, you should ensure that any cables coming into contact with each other are crossed at ninety degree angle to minimize the contact area."
Cables carrying current have an electrical field, so my question is how far would this field extend? 1mm, 1cm? I have no idea. It seems to me shielding could be beneficial, not to protect the mains cable, but to protect other delicate signals from the mains cable, if such a thing is possible.
Hi Andrei
Providing that the interconnect cables are shielded, then there really should not be much of a problem, but a belts and braces approach and good practice is to always run signal and power cables at right angles to one another where they have to cross. Where it becomes far greater of an issue is where interconnects are unshielded. I started out as a chartered civil engineer working in multi-disciplinary projects world-wide (including those with a large electrical/mechanical element) and subsequently have re-trained in electronic engineering after leaving a civil engineering career (and one which was far more lucrative than my current hifi living which should tell you something about my motivation!)
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 10:17
Informative post, thanks. As you are an (electrical?) engineer, may I tax you with this:
At page seven of the online manual for Simaudio's Moon 100D Dac (which can be found at http://www.simaudio.com/pdf/MOON_100D_Manual.pdf) they say this:
"In order to obtain the maximum performance from your audio system, we strongly recommend that the power supply cord not come into physical contact with any of the interconnect cables running to and from your 100D. In the event that this can’t be avoided, you should ensure that any cables coming into contact with each other are crossed at ninety degree angle to minimize the contact area."
Cables carrying current have an electrical field, so my question is how far would this field extend? 1mm, 1cm? I have no idea. It seems to me shielding could be beneficial, not to protect the mains cable, but to protect other delicate signals from the mains cable, if such a thing is possible.
I shall watch answers to this with interest, because I asked the same question of my man what knows, regarding hum from my AV, and his advice to avoid the mains cables and signal cables being too close, and crossing at 90 degrees. This is not easy in my domestic situation - although I achieved 80% improvement taking the signal cables out left from the TV unit and bringing the power in from the right.
But asking that very question effectively kicked me off on this whole mains cables bit of fun...:)
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 10:18
Hi Andrei
Providing that the interconnect cables are shielded, then there really should not be much of a problem, but a belts and braces approach and good practice is to always run signal and power cables at right angles to one another where they have to cross. Where it becomes far greater of an issue is where interconnects are unshielded.
Bloody hell - that was the answer I got too :lol:
Actually to expand - he said the shielding would have very little if any effect in the mains cable, and it was something to do with the wrong electromagnetic field types - but he was in a hurry and it left me dazed
Doing away with the IEC inlet on your gear is sound in theory but the hole is rectangular with 2 small holes either side, so you would need a cable gland to secure the wire coming out.
Also re-sale value would go down as the person buying may not like the idea of what you have done, seems a lot of trouble having to reverse it if you sell the item.
Round cable glands fit in round holes not square ones so then a plate would have to be made to cover the hole where the iec went with a round hole for the gland
to do the job properly. I think the sonic gains would be minimal myself. :) The IEC inlet is there to pass CE approval as far as I am aware.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 10:21
I'm not 100% myself Marco, but my take on it was that any dealer involvement at all or the opinions of any dealer are suspect. Whilst it IS a healthy thing to retain some scepticism of dealer opinions, some of us are genuinely not out to con/rob anyone and designer/manufacturer/dealers like myself are also in this for the love of music and hifi. I hope that my response demonstrated that there is an honest and sensible approach to this topic that doesn't need to drag the argument down to the lowest common denominator, that's all.
I'm NOT a flippin dealer. I'm an accountant :doh:
Doing away with the IEC inlet on your gear is sound in theory but the hole is rectangular with 2 small holes either side, so you would need a cable gland to secure the wire coming out.
Also re-sale value would go down as the person buying may not like the idea of what you have done, seems a lot of trouble having to reverse it if you sell the item.
Round cable glands fit in round holes not square ones so then a plate would have to be made to cover the hole where the iec went with a round hole for the gland
to do the job properly. I think the sonic gains would be minimal myself. :) The IEC inlet is there to pass CE approval as far as I am aware.
IEC approval can be obtained with captive leads too as far as I'm aware David (how many kitchen appliances, lamps and other household electrical items use captive leads? Lots). Yes, the hole left by the inlet socket would have to be properly glanded with a new panel to replace the IEC socket including strain relief applied to the joint, but that's all very straight forward (I've done it). As far as devaluing the kit, it can easily be returned to standard if required come time to sell on the kit.
I'm NOT a flippin dealer. I'm an accountant :doh:
I know Richard, but I read Greg's comments in more generalised terms as he referred to you as having a dealer's background. I may be wrong, in which case my apologies to Greg, but that's just the way I read it.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 10:49
I know Richard, but I read Greg's comments in more generalised terms as he referred to you as having a dealer's background. I may be wrong, in which case my apologies to Greg, but that's just the way I read it.
I appreciate that - and wasn't having a pop. But I haven't even got a dealers background - other than having to try to deal with the bunch of so and so's in the roll of manufacturer - 20 years ago - when mains came down kettle leads, and water came out of a tap. Does anyone put "Badoit" in their tea by any chance? :ner:
I'm surprised you haven't come across the idea of upgraded mains cables before Richard. After all, Russ Andrews was selling Kimber mains cables over twenty years ago, so it's not exactly a new idea...
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 11:20
I'm surprised you haven't come across the idea of upgraded mains cables before Richard. After all, Russ Andrews was selling Kimber mains cables over twenty years ago, so it's not exactly a new idea...
We were probably too busy worrying about Linn Products at the time. It wasn't mainstream - almost universally accepted, as it now appears to be. We were worrying about building the first Dac from discreet circuitry, generating cash-flow with deals with Richer Sounds, the launch of the Ventrical, Pip-2 and its batteries, and a few other things. And the big silly then was directional cables. I have a pair of directional speaker cables, given to me by the nice lady at Chord I can't remember the name of, but although out of tidiness I suspect, I noticed they had spent the last 20 years wired "correctly" - soon established it made sod-all difference when they were connected "wrong".
Another thread I think :)
Just had a look through the requirements for CE approval, and I take back what I said David, as for sale purposes, non double insulated kit (which tends to be most hifi) is required to be sold with IEC sockets, only double insulated can be sold with captive leads. That doesn't mean to say that you can't modify your own kit for captive purposes. The IEC inlet socket in many cases also employs an inlet protection fuse, so using an IEC socket helps manufacturers (slightly) to simplify internal wiring and also allows for a standard socket which can be used for a range of plug fittings depending on the country of use. It seems it's partly for unification marketing compliance. As I don't manufacture anything requiring CE compliance, it wasn't immediately obvious until the requirements were checked. If fitting a captive lead and your current IEC inlet uses fused protection, then this protection should be retained which could mean some wiring modifications. Most people wouldn't bother so it brings us back to kettle lead V's posh lead. You pays your money and makes your choice!
Well, they have been quite a persistent theme throughout the subsequent 20 years ('improved' mains cables that is)...
INot really listened enough to DEFINITELY say no difference, but any differences which exist are tiny
enough for now - that do you Macca? :cool:
Yes I'm happy now ;) My outlook is always that if I find myself thinking 'hmm is there a difference?' then there isn't one, not an appreciable one, anyway. I'm still going to try one of these things myself, though.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 12:06
Yes I'm happy now ;) My outlook is always that if I find myself thinking 'hmm is there a difference?' then there isn't one, not an appreciable one, anyway. I'm still going to try one of these things myself, though.
Yeah - I agree mostly. However, sometimes there are important subtle differences which only manifest themselves after time. For me the "hardness" of CD would be an example. And DaCapo 22 bit not having that "hardness". It manifests itself not as something I notice on A:B's particularly. I just found I didnt actually listen to music on CD's the way I did records. I listened to CD's in the car, on ghetto-blasters, as background, but I never sat down and listened to CD's for hours on end, in the nerdy "right between the speakers" position which I did with records. Until DaCapo 22 bit.
So - I plan to plug the designer leads back in again, and just leave them there for a week or two, and see whether when I take them away it bothers me. I'm not expecting it to, but having got this far I might as well. Before that I may just have a go at plugging them into the CD player and Dac instead to see if that makes a difference I can hear, but again, I'm not expecting it to.
Then, if fatigue hasn't set in, it's down to someone who can hear a difference to demonstrate it - at which I would expect to hear it too. (once I get an "interest" I tend to like to get it properly out of my system, rather than just not bother)
but for now, a few debits and credits :)
Well, they have been quite a persistent theme throughout the subsequent 20 years ('improved' mains cables that is)...
I think that's a fair point, as indeed it was when made earlier by Greg. However, I have no reason to consider that Richard is being in any way disingenuous.
Marco.
So - I plan to plug the designer leads back in again, and just leave them there for a week or two, and see whether when I take them away it bothers me.
Good idea - that's exactly what I do. For me, it's the *only* way that one can attempt to analyse these things properly. The more you plug and unplug things and listen, often the more confused you get.
In my experience, REAL differences between cables become apparent far more in the long term, than in the short term, which is one of the reasons why I consider 'quick-fire' ABX testing as fundamentally flawed.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 12:15
I think that's a fair point, as indeed it was when made earlier by Greg. However, I have no reason to consider that Richard is being in any way disingenuous.
Marco.
Thank you Marco. Until this forum I knew pretty much nothing about "new" in HiFi for 20 years. I haven't bought a HiFi magazine in that time (Sue bought me one for my birthday this year - March 17 if you are planning to send a card) because it had the "pretty" Kef Q50's on the cover - we had just been to audition them.
I knew about the Audiolab MDac - because I had decided (wrongly) that you couldn't buy vinyl any more so I needed to sort out a Dac, and started with a trawl through the web for DaCapo.
And I only revived this interest because I have a lady in my life who likes listening to music, and we finally worked out how to arrange the living room so my HiFi could have a half-credible setup.
There - 'sme done :cool:
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 12:22
And anyway, even if I had been intimately involved with HiFi in secret for 20 years and knew all about mains leads in their smallest detail, I haven't worked out what my secret agenda is supposed to be. Am I supposed to be about to manufacture "lofi" leads and sell them for even more? Write a book about mains leads and their effects, and use you all for secret unpaid research? Make my fortune watching some poor soul trying to make an honest buck lose their business?
Exactly how am I supposed to profit. You know what they say though
"Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you!"
Watch your back! :lol:
Andrew B
09-09-2013, 12:26
Richard, I do enjoy your posts. I hope that's sufficient praise for you to cross me off your hit list :lol:
I'm not 100% myself Marco, but my take on it was that any dealer involvement at all or the opinions of any dealer are suspect. Whilst it IS a healthy thing to retain some scepticism of dealer opinions, some of us are genuinely not out to con/rob anyone and designer/manufacturer/dealers like myself are also in this for the love of music and hifi. I hope that my response demonstrated that there is an honest and sensible approach to this topic that doesn't need to drag the argument down to the lowest common denominator, that's all.
Indeed you did, Paul, so you have no worries on that score :)
As for the dealer involvement thing, AoS has always aligned itself with promoting the good guys in the trade, whilst exposing the charlatans, whenever their behaviour warrants such. As far as the former is concerned, we welcome our trade members to take an active part in forum discussions, and not simply to 'live' in the trade room, taking advantage of our free advertising facilities and Google ranking, in order to further their business interests. Indeed, our Ethos confirms the former.
Incidentally, there's nothing wrong with the latter either, but those dealers will never become an integral part of the AoS community, and reap the rewards of that, in terms of achieving an excellent rapport with their customers, in the way of your good self, or the likes of hifi dave, Mark Grant, Paul Hynes, Stan Beresford, Nick Gorham (now Longdog Audio) etc, etc, and even Daftee-boy Dave Brook, when he behaves himself and curbs his sometimes misplaced, erm, 'enthusiasm'!! ;)
Therefore, I simply have no idea what it was Greg was meaning from his comments earlier, but then past history shows that he's always been a somewhat mercurial character. Perhaps he'll pop back and explain himself properly... We shall see.
Marco.
Sod the cables,how does her hedge look?
Trimmed into a nice 'V' shape, I hear! :eyebrows: :lol:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 12:43
Sod the cables,how does her hedge look?
Thank you for asking. Don't ask! It is hopelessly overgrown and liberally laced with hawthorn and brambles. My arms are ripped to shreds.
(See - I knew I had a proper excuse for that tennis result) :lol:
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 12:43
Trimmed into a nice 'V' shape, I hear! :eyebrows: :lol:
Marco.
You're thinking of the other bush mate :lol:
Wot - moi? If only I had that type of mind! :bum:
Marco.
What I found with some connections (ok, I deliberately chose poor quality IECs) is that particularly where corrosion of the socket pins was evident, there was measurably greater DC resistance across the junction and with low level current draw into some power supplies this could be evident sonically in loss of detail/output but only at very low levels. Direct coupling the lead eliminates this potential issue. For the higher current rating, yes, you also have a point but that issue can again be eliminated by the use of hard wiring.
The IEC C13 mains connector is a very poor design. The pins are not really thick enough, and the contact area is too small. Furthermore, the fit is too loose and not snug enough. It's a shame the old Bulgin round pin mains connectors and the XLM mains connectors have been outlawed; they were both much superior to the current IEC design.
There are some amplifier manufacturers who supply their products with captive mains leads: FM Acoustics in Switzerland are one.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 13:56
Hi Andrei
Providing that the interconnect cables are shielded, then there really should not be much of a problem, but a belts and braces approach and good practice is to always run signal and power cables at right angles to one another where they have to cross. Where it becomes far greater of an issue is where interconnects are unshielded. I started out as a chartered civil engineer working in multi-disciplinary projects world-wide (including those with a large electrical/mechanical element) and subsequently have re-trained in electronic engineering after leaving a civil engineering career (and one which was far more lucrative than my current hifi living which should tell you something about my motivation!)
Paul - just to clarify - unshielded (in the case of RCA's) would be 2 strands of wire. Nearly every standard RCA I have seen is coax - effectively shielded. Or are you talking about twin core with a separate screen shield round the outside - in which case where do you earth the shield? And why is that different to the shield being the "return" if the answer is the outside terminal on the RCA?
I still have this hum trouble to look into. The cable Owen originally made me was much too short - so I extended using a 5m rca pair I found in the garage and rca connector. I still have plans to do this cable properly - just for hum-bucking purposes. Any thoughts much appreciated :)
Informative post, thanks. As you are an (electrical?) engineer, may I tax you with this:
At page seven of the online manual for Simaudio's Moon 100D Dac (which can be found at http://www.simaudio.com/pdf/MOON_100D_Manual.pdf) they say this:
"In order to obtain the maximum performance from your audio system, we strongly recommend that the power supply cord not come into physical contact with any of the interconnect cables running to and from your 100D. In the event that this can’t be avoided, you should ensure that any cables coming into contact with each other are crossed at ninety degree angle to minimize the contact area."
Cables carrying current have an electrical field, so my question is how far would this field extend? 1mm, 1cm? I have no idea. It seems to me shielding could be beneficial, not to protect the mains cable, but to protect other delicate signals from the mains cable, if such a thing is possible.
In theory the electrical field extends out to infinity: the value of the field strength falls off roughly as the inverse of distance from the cable. Crossing the mains cable at right angles to the signal cables makes sense, but if the interconnects already have good shielding then this should not be necessary.
All in all, it does makes a good case for using shielded mains cables - you can then run them with your signal leads with impunity.
Of course we haven't discussed the presence of the accompanying magnetic field, but in a two-core mains cable, this tends to self-cancelling.
Personally, I think that captive mains leads are, in some circumstances, a great idea. I applaud the principle, as it makes perfect electrical sense.
The problem is that if you like to use the 'exotic' types of cable available (I'd call them mains cables properly designed for hi-fi purposes, but we'll leave it at that), then hard-wiring restricts your choice of cable.
It's fine if you're just into using fairly thin and flexible multi-strand types ('glorified kettle leads', as it were), but there's simply no way that I could safely or practically hard-wire into position the solid-core behemoths I use, without wrecking my equipment!! :exactly:
That is why instead I use what, IME, are the best IEC plugs on the market (or rather 'least bad', essentially acting as close to the effect of hard-wiring as possible), Furutech, FI-50, and hard-wire the other end of the cable directly into my dedicated incoming mains supply (with no plugs or 13A fuses) - and the sonic results are wonderful! :)
Marco.
I mean, imagine trying to hard-wire THIS into my equipment:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/836/liel.jpg
The fooker's about 12mm in diameter and stiff as a donkey's walloper! :eyebrows:
To my ears (and those of many others who've heard the comparison), any negative sonic effect of having IEC sockets and plugs is totally outweighed by the superior sonic results gained by using proper (for hi-fi purposes) mains cables. I've conducted this test many times, and a hard-wired kettle lead, quite simply, sounds PANTS in comparison! :trust:
One of the biggest influential factors I've found with mains leads is how thick the internal conductor is, and what that conductor is made from (i.e. the purity of the metals used, and hence the greater levels of conductivity it offers).
That is why, IME, 'wimpy' kettle leads, using sub-standard quality materials, are not best suited for hi-fi purposes, and why I use mains cables with the thickest internal conductor I know of (2.6mm), and that's Furukawa EE/F-S 2.6. This has the highest purity solid-copper solid-core conductors of any hi-fi mains cable I'm aware of (amongst other design features, IME, necessary for ensuring maximum performance in all high-quality audio applications):
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/oyaide-eefs_2.jpg
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html
Furthermore, IME, solid-core cables, when used in mains power applications, for high-resolution hi-fi systems, sonically outperform their multi-strand counterparts. Have you ever asked yourself why the 'twin & earth' mains cables feeding your wall sockets are solid-core types, not multi-strand, and how the electrical advantages there might be applied to optimising the sonic performance of hi-fi system? ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 14:49
The fooker's about 10mm in diameter and stiff as a donkey's walloper! :eyebrows:
To my ears (and those of many others who've heard the comparison), any negative sonic effect of having IEC sockets and plugs is totally outweighed by the superior sonic results gained by using proper (for hi-fi purposes) mains cables. I've tried this test many times, and a hard-wired kettle lead, quite simply, sounds PANTS in comparison! :trust:
One of the biggest influential factors I've found with mains leads is how thick the conductor is, and what that conductor is made from (i.e the purity of the metals used, and hence the greater levels of conductivity it offers). That is why I mains cables with the thickest internal conductor I know of (2.6mm), and that's Furukawa EE/F-S, which has the highest purity solid-copper solid-core conductors of any mains cable I'm aware of:
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html
Marco.
You could hardwire that easily enough if you wanted to.
The reason manufacturers don't hardwire, as I and others have previously stated, is for convenience of selling to multiple markets. They always used to hardwire - but then you have to put the right plug on the end. Much easier to just grab the appropriate lead for the intended market at the last minute. It was not to do with leaving room for audiophile mains leads.
(Looks like we've all forgotten the ladies present) - So I appreciate that it is important for you to have a fat one, but the guage and purity of the copper really shouldn't affect the mains getting into the unit. We're back that miles and miles of national grid, home fuseboard, house wiring etc. Your fat one can't inject extra oomph that's missing from the wall socket it is plugged into. And any extra loss on that little journey won't change anything at the unit.
RF - yes maybe. Dirty mains and filters - yes maybe. "Dirt" from loose connections -yes maybe. But an absolute constant change in voltage due to an absolute constant change in resistance of the wire, of the amounts of absolute constant change that are possible between standard wire and audiophile wire - not according to the laws of physics as they were explained to me.
Magnificent though your fat one is - it's not the girth alone that's giving satisfaction :) (as far as I currently understand it)
One of the biggest crimes I seen is a old amp that was initially hired wired and was then modified to accept IEC inlet Crazy
Richard,
All I can relate is the results of my experience, over some 15 years of experimenting with all manner of mains cables for my hi-fi system, and in that respect, I can state categorically that what I'm using now is head and shoulders, sonically, better than any other mains cables I've used.
I care not a jot about what 'should' or 'shouldn't' happen - I know from experience what I can genuinely and repeatedly hear! :)
There is also no way you could hard-wire that cable into 'normal' equipment, if for no other reason than the sheer weight and stiffness of it would pull most equipment right off of the shelf!!! :exactly:
That's one of the reasons why I use the thickest stuff for my valve power amp, as it weighs 40kg (and the 2.1mm version for all my other kit)! ;)
Marco.
From the Oyaide website:
"EE/F-S 2.6 is consist of 2.6mm PCOCC-A conductors which have a 600V30A capacity, halogen-free sheathing developed specifically for audio applications, copper foil shielding and the drain wire for easy wire connection. It has demonstrated 30dB superiority in noise protection over standard indoor cable."
With reference to the bit in blue, subjectively one can clearly hear the sonic benefits of the lower noise-floor, and I suspect, with the right equipment, also measure it... ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
09-09-2013, 15:25
Who sells this, Marco... I can't find it.
Hi Joe,
Both Mark Grant and Dave Brook sell it. Here, on David's website: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/cable-off-the-reel/532-oyaide-ee-fs-26-mains-cable.html
Mark has also advertised it for sale here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17119-Oyaide-Furukawa-EE-FS-2-0-PCOCC-A-power-cable-offer
My initial reaction to and description of the cable's sonic and musical merits can be found here on this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?20196-Marco-s-Mains-Madness-unleashing-the-Furukawa-Beast!
The discussion starts a bit haphazardly, as it was moved from another thread and into a separate one of its own, so you'll have to scroll on a bit for the 'real action' to happen :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 15:45
OK
I'm not calling you a fibber Marco. I'm just trying to manipulate you into a good excuse for trying that cassoulet. ;)
Rain check. Quick restatement of position.
I don't properly understand these things - but like to ask my friend who does. He is busy, about 5 emails behind in correspondence over a 3 month period (ignoring me - but still expecting dinner) and so I am saving up my questions and not bombarding him with trivia.
I got interested in mains cable because of my hum problem. But I'm up for anything making a serious improvement in my listening pleasure. His response to my preliminary replies were dismissive. His comments about the shielding pretty much the same as Pauls, and I think the bit I was getting muddled with was the magnetic forces Barry referred to, and the short version was the shielding wouldn't help and they didn't matter (presumably Barry, because they cancel out)
To go back and engage him in dialogue, and nudge him into a bit more effort for explanation I want to be in a position to say - "but they work". So I bought some, and if they do work, it is not convincingly enough for me to know I could demonstrate the fact. (In short - they don't)
My options are
1 To say - "fair enough, bullshit - I'll leave the believers to it"
2 Keep shelling out on ever more expensive experiments in the hope one day it clicks
3 Have some kind person who knows they work demonstrate the point
On this last point, this thread has already been revealing. There are some mixed claims - many others have referred to this. But there is the "hyperbole" issue. There is plenty of talk of "dramatic" or "fundamental" or "head and shoulders" (yours Marco post 321) differences. And yet when asking to share these experiences they become "slight" "subtle" "only revealed over prolonged listening" "not capable of A:B demonstration."
This is, at the very least, a bit bewildering - and frustrating.
To return to that Shelter cartridge I am interested in for a moment - the world has changed and i have to get used to it. The days of buying any hifi by listening to it first have passed by. If I want to try a cartridge like the shelter, I am going to have to change my habits, and take a punt - blind. Before doing so though, I will try to get as much reassurance as possible I am not likely to be dissappointed. My first truly blind purchase - the Technics MC cartridge was a good experience. I knew a fair bit about it before buying, although had never heard one (or of one) before. My main worry was it would be heavily used and in poor condition, and in fact it was as good as new as far as I can judge. The point is, I want reassurance from those I can identify share my auditioning experiences, and any technical or other information I can find. Nothing in science tells me it is impossible for a SHelter cartridge to sound as good as Martin says it does. So, although needing to gulp a few deep breaths first, I may well give it a go.
I am looking for the same experience in trying, or not trying mains products. To date - I am not getting it. And there is this definite "don't ask me to prove it - it just is" attitude from all who support mains cables. Understandable from the punters - why would you want me ruining your weekend and trampling all over your shagpile? But I would have expected a champion from the pro's.
I have a real dilemma here. If I try to keep this conversation generalised and theoretical - I am vulnerable because I haven't tried the right thing. If I try to be specific - because the specific I experienced came from MCRU - because of the press on this site - then it unfairly puts the whole broad question I am interested in on poor Dave's shoulders.
I'll pause there - my posts are too long. I'll talk about those specifics in another post - later.
:)
To me the solution seems absurdly simple; borrow some fancy cables (Mark Grant sends cables out for a free trial period), try them out, see if they make a difference, keep them if they do, return them if they don't. There's no other way of knowing if they'll work for you; the fact that they work for Marco or anyone else is irrelevant, as you're not going to be listening to Marco's system in Marco's room with Marco's ears.
Paul - just to clarify - unshielded (in the case of RCA's) would be 2 strands of wire. Nearly every standard RCA I have seen is coax - effectively shielded. Or are you talking about twin core with a separate screen shield round the outside - in which case where do you earth the shield? And why is that different to the shield being the "return" if the answer is the outside terminal on the RCA?
I still have this hum trouble to look into. The cable Owen originally made me was much too short - so I extended using a 5m rca pair I found in the garage and rca connector. I still have plans to do this cable properly - just for hum-bucking purposes. Any thoughts much appreciated :)
Hi Richard
Yes, I'm referring to unshielded cables consisting either of braided conductors (usually 3 but sometime 5, with one typically being signal and the others tied together for the earth) or twin conductors in a twisted pair. For single ended circuits, there's no common mode noise rejection, to the simple act of twisting unshielded cables does little to protect against RFI or EMI.
Coax is fine, generally speaking, as the return is usually the shield. The big advantages of simple coax designs are lowish capacitance for standard 75 Ohm cable configurations (important for MM phono circuits) and they allow a decent joint with good strain relief at the plugs. Where you have twin conductor (twisted pair usually in with some spacer to control capacitance and provide some damping) with an overall shield, it's normal to earth the shield at one end only, usually the end connected to lowest ground potential so making the cable directional. The advantage with this design is that any spurious EMI/RFI picked up in the shield is shunted to ground and less likely to inductively couple with the signal. It can get a little more complicated when the leakage ground voltage of connected chassis are considered (ie the tiny currents present in conductive chassis components connected to ground) where the rule of thumb is to make the ground conductor more conductive (lower impedance) than the signal so that you lower the potential between connected kit so reducing the potential to couple noise directly with the signal, and improving S/N performance. The disadvantage with twin conductor in an overall shield is higher overall capacitance, but this is rarely an issue unless using long ICs from a passive preamp or from a turn-table to a MM phonostage.
3 Have some kind person who knows they work demonstrate the point
On this last point, this thread has already been revealing. There are some mixed claims - many others have referred to this. But there is the "hyperbole" issue. There is plenty of talk of "dramatic" or "fundamental" or "head and shoulders" (yours Marco post 321) differences. And yet when asking to share these experiences they become "slight" "subtle" "only revealed over prolonged listening" "not capable of A:B demonstration."
This is, at the very least, a bit bewildering - and frustrating.
Richard, we're largely dealing in semantics here... For some people (again depending on the specific mains cables in question and test system) the differences are so marked that they are obvious in a normal A/B comparison.
For others, differences highlighted in such comparisons are subtle, or non-existant, and may only become more obvious with prolonged listening - or rather after living with said new 'exotic' cables for a period of time, and once removed and replaced with the original kettle leads, *that* is when said differences become more apparent, if at the point of returning to one's previous reference, one detects a distinctive downgrade in the system's sound quality.
The same also applies the other way round, in that if no difference is heard at that point, then one can safely assume that there isn't one!
Unfortunately, this is not a 'black or white' easily described or identified phenomenon. You simply have to experiment, to the best of your ability, and judge what you hear using your own preferred methods and judgement criteria. There is no 'one size fits all' solution!! :)
Marco.
To me the solution seems absurdly simple; borrow some fancy cables (Mark Grant sends cables out for a free trial period), try them out, see if they make a difference, keep them if they do, return them if they don't. There's no other way of knowing if they'll work for you; the fact that they work for Marco or anyone else is irrelevant, as you're not going to be listening to Marco's system in Marco's room with Marco's ears.
:exactly:
The problem is that Richard seems to want to 'prove' that his conclusion is 'right', hence why he insists on consulting these so-called 'expert' friends of his, instead of simply trusting his own ears and forming a conclusion purely on that basis, which may, in actuality, be right or wrong.
However the only 'right' that matters here is what his own ears tell him - not what his 'expert' friends, or anyone else, consider as being 'scientifically possible'!! ;)
Marco.
Personally, I think that captive mains leads are, in some circumstances, a great idea. I applaud the principle, as it makes perfect electrical sense.
The obvious and logical corollary to that, would be for source components (TTs, CDPs, tuners) to be supplied with captive signal leads. But maybe that's taking a step too far!
The Black Adder
09-09-2013, 16:42
Hi Joe,
Both Mark Grant and Dave Brook sell it. Here, on David's website: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/cable-off-the-reel/532-oyaide-ee-fs-26-mains-cable.html
Mark has also advertised it for sale here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17119-Oyaide-Furukawa-EE-FS-2-0-PCOCC-A-power-cable-offer
My initial reaction to and description of the cable's sonic and musical merits can be found here on this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?20196-Marco-s-Mains-Madness-unleashing-the-Furukawa-Beast!
The discussion starts a bit haphazardly, as it was moved from another thread and into a separate one of its own, so you'll have to scroll on a bit for the 'real action' to happen :)
Marco.
Ah..lol - Me is a daftee. I did look but not hard enough.
Thanks matey... :)
To me the solution seems absurdly simple; borrow some fancy cables (Mark Grant sends cables out for a free trial period), try them out, see if they make a difference, keep them if they do, return them if they don't. There's no other way of knowing if they'll work for you; the fact that they work for Marco or anyone else is irrelevant, as you're not going to be listening to Marco's system in Marco's room with Marco's ears.
Spot on Joe,
You have made what is probably the best and most sensible reply to Richard's OP. Amazing that it has taken over 300 posts to do so! :clapclapclap:
So now, can we please close this thread, and get back to discussing what the Art of Sound is all about - music!? Or if you don't want to talk about music, we could always continue with Frank's suggested topic.
From the Oyaide website:
With reference to the bit in blue, subjectively one can clearly hear the sonic benefits of the lower noise-floor, and I suspect, with the right equipment, also measure it... ;)
Marco.
Its actually quite useful for tight rope walking the furukawa, it's that stiff. Best not mention "stiff" too much or others may get ideas! Frank eh! :)
Clive197
09-09-2013, 17:00
When Richard is not waffling he makes interesting and thought provoking points. Mains cables work for me, using the tried and tested method of putting them in (12 to be exact) and removing them after a week or so. So far when this has been done and I put the standard cables back for about 5 minutes, you I am sure can guess the rest. Quality mains cables work for my ears, my system and for my room. We have three computers, four mobile phones and 1 router with extender all producing a hideous amount of RF and mains borne interference from switch mode power supplies, so what comes from the national grid is not my concern as I can do little about it.
Oh sod it I'm waffling now
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 17:02
Gordon mate.
As so often, you were right after all. But I expect you knew that :)
When Richard is not waffling he makes interesting and thought provoking points. Mains cables work for me, using the tried and tested method of putting them in (12 to be exact) and removing them after a week or so. So far when this has been done and I put the standard cables back for about 5 minutes, you I am sure can guess the rest. Quality mains cables work for my ears, my system and for my room. We have three computers, four mobile phones and 1 router with extender all producing a hideous amount of RF and mains borne interference from switch mode power supplies, so what comes from the national grid is not my concern as I can do little about it.
Oh sod it I'm waffling now
not at all, I know a guy who has a linear power supply powering his cordless telephone for the very reasons you highlight
The obvious and logical corollary to that, would be for source components (TTs, CDPs, tuners) to be supplied with captive signal leads. But maybe that's taking a step too far!
Indeed - besides, in doing so you'd be depriving users of the freedom to fiddle (and we all loikes a good fumble, sorry, fiddle :eyebrows:)
So now, can we please close this thread, and get back to discussing what the Art of Sound is all about - music!? Or if you don't want to talk about music, we could always continue with Frank's suggested topic.
We don't close threads, muchacho, unless we have no other option. We simply allow them to die a natural death... Oh, and we discuss music in the music room and hifi (and general smut) in all other areas. It's a simple system that seems to work well! :D
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 17:10
Spot on Joe,
You have made what is probably the best and most sensible reply to Richard's OP. Amazing that it has taken over 300 posts to do so! :clapclapclap:
So now, can we please close this thread, and get back to discussing what the Art of Sound is all about - music!? Or if you don't want to talk about music, we could always continue with Frank's suggested topic.
Barry
You delude yourself. There is indeed a section for music. It appears but occaisionally. A quick glance at "Quick Links - todays posts" my usual entry point, shows at least 90% are equipment focussed.
Generally "Nice system Winston - looks the business. Bet it sounds great too"
("It" you'll note - not music on it)
And that conclusion drawn with assurity and aplomb from mere physical appearance.
My "so-called" experts deploy their expertise producing some fabulous sounding equipment on which to enjoy music - genuinely innovative and worthwile stuff.
But I would not presume to interfere with anybodys rights to oggle shiny racks, or fat mains cables to achieve their gratification.
Surely there must be a decent straight porn website for me to view instead if I google for it. I shall investigate :cool:
My "so-called" experts deploy their expertise producing some fabulous sounding equipment on which to enjoy music - genuinely innovative and worthwile stuff.
Sure, but the *ONLY* expert judge of what your system is doing (or not), sonically or musically, with your new mains cables, is YOU!! ;)
Marco.
I'm not deluded (a patronising expression, we try to avoid using here on AoS)! My comment about music was made with a certain amount of irony. As far as I am concerned the equipment is only a means to an end. And that 'end' is far more interesting than the 'means to the end'.
Barry
You delude yourself. There is indeed a section for music. It appears but occaisionally. A quick glance at "Quick Links - todays posts" my usual entry point, shows at least 90% are equipment focussed.
Generally "Nice system Winston - looks the business. Bet it sounds great too"
("It" you'll note - not music on it)
And that conclusion drawn with assurity and aplomb from mere physical appearance.
My "so-called" experts deploy their expertise producing some fabulous sounding equipment on which to enjoy music - genuinely innovative and worthwile stuff.
But I would not presume to interfere with anybodys rights to oggle shiny racks, or fat mains cables to achieve their gratification.
Surely there must be a decent straight porn website for me to view instead if I google for it. I shall investigate :cool:
When can we expect to hear your SQ findings with your self assembled cables?
If you run the whole house on batteries in the evening,like i do,you will find that kettle leads work just fine...:D SOD the Grid..
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 17:44
I'm not deluded (a patronising expression, we try to avoid using here on AoS)! My comment about music was made with a certain amount of irony. As far as I am concerned the equipment is only a means to an end. And that 'end' is far more interesting than the 'means to the end'.
I apologise Barry - and take the point. No offence was meant. It was sloppy English for "the evidence in front of me does not accord with your worthy aspiration". And I certainly agree with your final point. As I have discussed with Gordon, when, as now, I am prompted into having a "sort out" (Broken preamp, followed by humming power amp, trashed favourite cartridge, dodgy wiring in arm, speaker cables not fitting temporary amp, and - the two good bits, a chance to do home cinema fairly properly integrated with the 2 channel, and a chance discovery of a gem of a Dac) - I like to get a solution I can enjoy for many years as efficiently as possible - and for me the first filter is credibility.
And I quite enjoy chatting about that.
Hi Richard,
I like to get a solution I can enjoy for many years as efficiently as possible - and for me the first filter is credibility.
Sure, however, in terms of accurately ascertaining, sonically and musically, what is happening in your hi-fi system with your new mains leads, who's 'credibility' matters most: yours or that of your 'expert' friends, advising you on what you *should* be hearing (or not), based on their 'expertise'?
I know that it's a provocative question, but I'm trying to find out whether or not you have enough confidence to trust your own ears and form an opinion on that basis, without being swayed by others :)
Marco.
Couple of questions they have always puzzled me.
If a cable is put in and lets more music through where was the music before?
If a company sell a range of cables,and say the middle price one is transparent what are the others in the range doing?
I had a Furukawa 2.6 cable made up with Furutech connectors both ends. Despite being substantially more heavyweight, it cost considerably less than the Kimber Signature Powerkord it replaced. I use it to power the entire system via my Powerplant P10 regenerator, the best way to make single use of one. It helped my system to step up a notch in sound quality, especially in the area of bass tightness and sheer slam.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 18:43
Couple of questions they have always puzzled me.
If a cable is put in and lets more music through where was the music before?
If a company sell a range of cables,and say the middle price one is transparent what are the others in the range doing?
Chelsea you have lured me back in. But maybe not on my hand job with a glass of wine in front of me. Maybe later when I can type faster :)
Fancy having a go at answering my post #343? :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 19:52
Fancy having a go at answering my post #343? :)
Marco.
Sure will do. Watching the mummy and sequel with the missus. Might be on a promise.later:)
Quite often the chaps who say to me "I tried some sooper dooper mains cables and I couldn't hear a difference", that is because most of the time they didn't know what they actually ought to be listening out FOR. I said way, way back in this illustrious thread that instead of plonking yourself down into your listening chair the minute they arrive, you should actually not be in the room and get someone else to swap the cable over. Pay attention purely to bass content of any music and there should be a marked reduction in bass overhang and boom. For me this is one of the signatures that a good mains cable should be giving you and transients should have much more attack on leading edges and stop dead thereafter. I used to walk up and down the corridors of hotels holding hi-fi shows and I could tell you exactly which demo systems were fitted with sooper dooper power cords and which weren't without setting foot inside the rooms and just listening out for bass overhang I could clearly distinguish.
Next, sit in front of your system and crank the volume up with NO source input. A good cable should give you less ambient hiss and noise. Yes I know that transistored amps will exhibit some degree of hiss, but cheapo mains cables add some more of their own. Silver mains cables have less hiss than copper cables. Play some music and look for the contrasts between loud and quiet passages. Quite often folks will use the term "inky blackness" which describes this effect well.
If none of that works for you, then go look at some tits.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/01/article-1334727-0C49C466000005DC-855_634x426.jpg
I would like to hear more from our experienced members on the 'grounding of the mains cable shield' if someone could help on some detail questions...
If I read this thread correctly - then when I get the DIY cable from MCRU - the shield should be connected with the ground at the outlet to be effective. Yes?
Therefore the ground at the outlet must be well grounded for the RF sheilding to be effective ?
Is there any way to test the ground at the outlet is actually well grounded? <- there should be some way yes?!
This seems like a key point to check - for example, I have lived in apts where the ground did not work properly or was in fact 'hot' because someone made a wiring mistake in the building.
Couple of questions they have always puzzled me.
If a cable is put in and lets more music through where was the music before?
If a company sell a range of cables,and say the middle price one is transparent what are the others in the range doing?
ALL the music is always there...
its just that your system's ability to mask it varies according to what equipment you use.
What constitutes "the best" way to access whats already there can differ according to who you speak to; You have to do valves, no you HAVE to do vinyl, no you MUST spend 10K on my new range (Salisbury I'm looking at you).
Opinions differ, that's where hifi forums (and opportunists) come in. :)
Its not that cables and other kit ADDs anything, its that it takes less away.
Oldpinkman
09-09-2013, 21:10
I would like to hear more from our experienced members on the 'grounding of the mains cable shield' if someone could help on some detail questions...
If I read this thread correctly - then when I get the DIY cable from MCRU - the shield should be connected with the ground at the outlet to be effective. Yes?
Therefore the ground at the outlet must be well grounded for the RF sheilding to be effective ?
Is there any way to test the ground at the outlet is actually well grounded? <- there should be some way yes?!
This seems like a key point to check - for example, I have lived in apts where the ground did not work properly or was in fact 'hot' because someone made a wiring mistake in the building.
Quickie at bed time. Not forgotten you Marco. Put a meter on it. I checked those diy cables many times for shirts and continuity. Mains pin to screen at other end of cable. 0.00 ohms
Quickie at bed time.
So you were on a promise? Hope her new 'haircut' doesn't give you a rash! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Quite often the chaps who say to me "I tried some sooper dooper mains cables and I couldn't hear a difference", that is because most of the time they didn't know what they actually ought to be listening out FOR. I said way, way back in this illustrious thread that instead of plonking yourself down into your listening chair the minute they arrive, you should actually not be in the room and get someone else to swap the cable over. Pay attention purely to bass content of any music and there should be a marked reduction in bass overhang and boom. For me this is one of the signatures that a good mains cable should be giving you and transients should have much more attack on leading edges and stop dead thereafter. I used to walk up and down the corridors of hotels holding hi-fi shows and I could tell you exactly which demo systems were fitted with sooper dooper power cords and which weren't without setting foot inside the rooms and just listening out for bass overhang I could clearly distinguish.
Next, sit in front of your system and crank the volume up with NO source input. A good cable should give you less ambient hiss and noise. Yes I know that transistored amps will exhibit some degree of hiss, but cheapo mains cables add some more of their own. Silver mains cables have less hiss than copper cables. Play some music and look for the contrasts between loud and quiet passages. Quite often folks will use the term "inky blackness" which describes this effect well.
If none of that works for you, then go look at some tits.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/01/article-1334727-0C49C466000005DC-855_634x426.jpg
I am sure I've read most of this post from you before.
If I have to be guided/told what to listen for then it really isn't worth it even if others warm to that idea. That's the polite version.
My amp has no hiss even with the "kettle" lead so loathed by some. Full volume silent.
What you ascribe to leads I obtained by a Mains Regenerator, greater dynamic range.
Your final line was neither humorous nor respectful
I am sure I've read most of this post from you before.
If I have to be guided/told what to listen for then it really isn't worth it even if others warm to that idea. That's the polite version.
My amp has no hiss even with the "kettle" lead so loathed by some. Full volume silent.
What you ascribe to leads I obtained by a Mains Regenerator, greater dynamic range.
Your final line was neither humorous nor respectful
Yes you have heard it before, but more than once I have also read posts about people asking what sonic expectations they should have from a sooper dooper mains lead. My method also includes an element of blind testing too, so don't knock it.
You personally might not need to be coached how to listen but many others do. Many so-called "audiophiles" are atrocious in recognising and/or interpreting what they hear and if you have ever sat and listened to the comments made by visitors at hi-fi shows and how diverse they can be, then that statement holds some truth.
My final line was simply a break into the circuitous tosh I am reading in this thread. That's the polite version :ner:
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 06:06
Hi Richard,
Sure, however, in terms of accurately ascertaining, sonically, what is happening in your hi-fi system with your new mains leads, who's 'credibility' matters most: yours or that of your 'expert' friends, advising you on what you *should* be hearing (or not), based on their 'expertise'?
I know that it's a provocative question, but I'm trying to find out whether or not you have enough confidence to trust your own ears and form an opinion on that basis :)
Marco.
I don't find the question provocative. I hope the same can be said for you and the others about the answer.
I am far more frequently accused of arrogance than lack of confidence. I have total confidence in my ability to hear tiny differences (one of the favours for a friend i am doing for arthur is to be his x-ref auditioner because we both know we are good at it)
Moreover, I have complete confidence in knowing what I like. I don't need anyone to tell me what I should hear. That is, what I should prefer or care about. If I could walk into orpington hifi and audition 2 mains cables the way I auditioned a pt against an lp12 I would do so and know my own answers.
Friends explaining stuff is the same as me enjoying brian cox talking about the universe. I don't properly understand it all. The night sky is no less, and no more beautiful because I know a few fragments about what's up there. But I like learning and understanding.
30 years ago I asked owen, why the pip sounded valvey. I'm still waiting for the answer, although he's promised me he'll try b4 one of us dies.a lot of my attempts to learn basic electronics and amplifier design are my frustration that the partial answer I got doesn't mean something to me, however technically imperfectly, in the way Arthur's explanations of resonance in arm cartdridge systems do. I don't want to die wondering.
Half time to be continued on the desktop. ;)
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 06:58
But in addition to getting Owen, Arthur, and JW to attempt to explain things to me because I like to understand, only to the extent I "understand" the wonders of the universe, and in no way changing the wonder of those wonders, I also use them as a reliable cross-reference for when I am talking out of my a**e. A fine example would be AK and his directional interconnects. Paul has provided, perhaps unwittingly, an explanation for why I mostly got the patronising bluster, rather than the angry bluster, when I took the piss about directional cables. In the context of shielded cables direction CAN make a difference. There is a real reason why it matters which end the shield is earthed at. Whether this actually matters, or is audible, may depend on many factors, but the important point is, regardless of whether it matters, it is not pointless and silly in the way directionality in unshielded speaker cables is. Thanks Paul. (It didn't help that when I last played with them, the spiel made all the same claims about copper crystal alignment and which way they were drawn out at manufacture etc, but). Had it mattered to me, and had I chipped away at it, my boys would have given me the same answer, and my ignorance would have diminished by another almost invisibly small sliver.
Back to the answer to your question. I think this is snakeoil. I was making similar comments on my "Englishman Abroad" thread and acknowledged that I was making that claim from a position of arrogance and ignorance - although it was based on so many of the "trace element" signs of snakeoil being present. So I am endeavouring to be open minded and less arrogant. There are basically 2 options for moving away from the snakeoil position (only one really, but)
it's real - and even if I can't hear it (very unlikely) someone can convincingly demonstrate they can
it's real - and there is a perfectly good explanation of why its real
No2 as you point out is trivial compared to No1. But a useful screen. If it turns out my technical understanding is flawed in the way it was with screened interconnects, then that shifts my stance on the probability that what I hear and what I expect is flawed. It changes how much effort I am interested in putting in to finding out for myself. To return to an earlier point - it moves me closer to the Shelter cartridge trial. Maybe I'll bung a few quid at trying this, because, although its risky and I may not like it and may waste my money, there are good reasons to support giving it a try. In the absence of scientific credibility, and/or credible demonstration of veracity - it's snake oil (there are so many pointers - another thread)
Why does that matter? Why don't we just listen to the music? (Gordon. Barry) -
I might ask Why do we buy HiFi magazines? Why are we on this forum -mostly not talking about music but talking about boxes?
Because it's interesting. :)
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 07:18
Why are there so many claims for the wonders of mains cables, and yet whilst voiced with hyperbole one minute, the next minute they evaporate to vapour trails and subtleties which can only be experienced after prolonged burn-in and in combination with multiple other factors?
We're boys. I mentioned that earlier thanks to Chris (the Grand Wazoo) pointing out there were ladies present. No sign of them here. No surprise. They have more sense.
So - every year on holiday we have at least one, usually two, and sometimes 3 erections.
We have to put the caravan awning up. In the Languedoc, at base camp for our house hunting, the ground is rock hard, and the wind can blow like nowhere else i know. The little camp shop may not stock toilet roll, or baked beans, but it stocks storm straps! :stalks: A couple of years back I discovered tent pegs you can drill in - bloody marvelous. So I now go on holiday with my Makita 18v cordless drill - my old B&Q 12v nowhere near up to the job. What a tool! I mean, I just can't find enough excuses to drill holes or screw and unscrew. It is a pleasure to own - just because of those things we all instinctively as boys recognise, build quality, "feel" - oh - you know
Against the good advice of a dealer I have known and trusted for years, I bought a pneumatic jockey wheel to try - and sure enough the tyre came off at the first opportunity (Dover docks - where, fortunately, the Freelander had broken down). Equally fortunately I trusted this dealer enough to have been carrying the solid tyred jockey-wheel with me as a spare. So at the Land Rover dealer, rather than dig out my own tool kit from behind the bikes, I borrowed a pair of pliers from the garage to remove the split pin. What a pair of pliers! I just have to get some, even if I never need to squeeze anything again. I could have done the job with my B&Q gas pliers. I could probably have done it with my fingers at a pinch (sorry - couldnt resist the pun :ner:). But I didn't want to give this pair back. I kept wandering round holding them and gazing at them, wondering what possibly needed fixing that I had forgotten.
Not unlike having a cable like a donkeys wallopper ;)
So what are the snake oil traces? I conceded I would keep my peace, and not use the snake oil phrase until I had tried some cables. I predicted that if I did, and I heard no difference I would hear
1) My hearing is not good enough
2) I bought the wrong cables
3) The electricity in Kent is different
4) No credible evidence to support the claims is available (slight offence taken that it should be asked for), and the claims are "just trust me, it works"
And guess what? I trusted. It didn't :cool:
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 08:07
Why are there so many claims for the wonders of mains cables, and yet whilst voiced with hyperbole one minute, the next minute they evaporate to vapour trails and subtleties which can only be experienced after prolonged burn-in and in combination with multiple other factors?
We're boys. I mentioned that earlier thanks to Chris (the Grand Wazoo) pointing out there were ladies present. No sign of them here. No surprise. They have more sense.
So - every year on holiday we have at least one, usually two, and sometimes 3 erections.
We have to put the caravan awning up. In the Languedoc, at base camp for our house hunting, the ground is rock hard, and the wind can blow like nowhere else i know. The little camp shop may not stock toilet roll, or baked beans, but it stocks storm straps! :stalks: A couple of years back I discovered tent pegs you can drill in - bloody marvelous. So I now go on holiday with my Makita 18v cordless drill - my old B&Q 12v nowhere near up to the job. What a tool! I mean, I just can't find enough excuses to drill holes or screw and unscrew. It is a pleasure to own - just because of those things we all instinctively as boys recognise, build quality, "feel" - oh - you know
Against the good advice of a dealer I have known and trusted for years, I bought a pneumatic jockey wheel to try - and sure enough the tyre came off at the first opportunity (Dover docks - where, fortunately, the Freelander had broken down). Equally fortunately I trusted this dealer enough to have been carrying the solid tyred jockey-wheel with me as a spare. So at the Land Rover dealer, rather than dig out my own tool kit from behind the bikes, I borrowed a pair of pliers from the garage to remove the split pin. What a pair of pliers! I just have to get some, even if I never need to squeeze anything again. I could have done the job with my B&Q gas pliers. I could probably have done it with my fingers at a pinch (sorry - couldnt resist the pun :ner:). But I didn't want to give this pair back. I kept wandering round holding them and gazing at them, wondering what possibly needed fixing that I had forgotten.
Not unlike having a cable like a donkeys wallopper ;)
So what are the snake oil traces? I conceded I would keep my peace, and not use the snake oil phrase until I had tried some cables. I predicted that if I did, and I heard no difference I would hear
1) My hearing is not good enough
2) I bought the wrong cables
3) The electricity in Kent is different
4) No credible evidence to support the claims is available (slight offence taken that it should be asked for), and the claims are "just trust me, it works"
And guess what? I trusted. It didn't :cool:
If I didn't know better, I would have suspected that deep down in your hidden heart (I assume its there somewhere) you are a little bit of a cynic:lol:
Join the club.
You personally might not need to be coached how to listen but many others do. Many so-called "audiophiles" are atrocious in recognising and/or interpreting what they hear and if you have ever sat and listened to the comments made by visitors at hi-fi shows and how diverse they can be, then that statement holds some truth.
It's true that some people require 'coaching', in terms of knowing what to listen for, when assessing the potential performance upgrades of audiophile-designed mains leads. However, I never usually mention this because I consider it as somewhat arrogant instructing established audio enthusiasts, such as members of this forum, on 'how to listen'. I'm reminded at this point of the old chestnut of requiring 'golden ears' :rolleyes:
That said, the fact is if you don't know exactly *what* to listen for, then there is of course a distinct possibility that you won't hear it, or perhaps even listen out for the wrong things.... For some, knowing exactly what to listen for comes naturally, and 'get' it instantly, but for others it can often be somewhat of an exacting and frustrating process.
Much of the skill involved comes from experience - and that's experience not only of judging the impact of any hi-fi improvements (in terms of bass, midrange, treble, soundstage, etc), but on having a fundamental understanding of how real music sounds (un-amplified voices and instruments), and thus being able to successfully relate to and identify the impact, on the music one is listening to, of any genuine upgrades to one's mains cables, and thus to overall system performance.
There is no 'magic' involved here, and of course, any increased 'musical involvement' gained by upgrading mains cables, will have occurred as a direct result of tangible improvements to a system's sonic capabilities, in terms of increased transparancy (most likely due to the reduction of mains-related noise), and in the areas of the fundamental hi-fi considerations I referred to earlier (which should, with the right equipment be measurable), and subsequently by 'opening the window' further, as it were, this allows the listener greater insight into recordings contained in their music collection.
However, IME, the *trick* of accurately assessing the effectiveness of audiophile-designed mains cables (or signal cables) in a hi-fi system, is to be successfully able to correlate any hi-fi improvements gained with how that genuinely impacts on the musical involvement experienced by the listener. In my opinion, only if you are able to do that, will you genuinely 'get' what it's all about.
It is one of the reasons why I think that some people, unless they can 'train' their brains to behave along those lines, will never experience the fundamental musical benefits others obtain by optimising how their hi-fi system receives power from the mains supply, and thus the long-term musical satisfaction this brings from having one's system properly 'sorted' in that way.
Marco.
Clive197
10-09-2013, 08:33
Why are there so many claims for the wonders of mains cables, and yet whilst voiced with hyperbole one minute, the next minute they evaporate to vapour trails and subtleties which can only be experienced after prolonged burn-in and in combination with multiple other factors?
I really couldn't be doing with the waffle about electric drills and erections etc, but this bit was thought provoking.
Here we have been going on with 358 posts about mains cables again, with nobody giving any ground and changing their opinion when a really interesting comment which I don't think that I have seen before pops up.
Burn-In! Can we hear the difference? Or is it us getting used to the equipment and cables we have purchased (or borrowed).
My own take is this. Speakers need to be run-in to free up stiff drivers, I get it. Amps, turntables, arms and other source players..... I don't get it. Cartridges....the jury is still out but I suppose the little bung holding the cantilever may need a little running-in.
Cables.........DOH!
I used to be in the trade and often had to set-up and sit through demonstrations, with brand new or shelf stock that had only been used for maybe a couple of hours total. I don't remember anyone asking if the product(s) had been run-in.
I think our ears get used to a new sound after a few hours, days, weeks etc. perhaps it's our ears that are running-in.
Now this might be worth discussion.
Oh sorry forgot to say we always ran-in demo speakers for a couple of days before they were used for demo purposes.
Why are there so many claims for the wonders of mains cables, and yet whilst voiced with hyperbole one minute, the next minute they evaporate to vapour trails and subtleties which can only be experienced after prolonged burn-in and in combination with multiple other factors?
Because that's simply the way it *is* sometimes. Also see what I've outlined about correlating hi-fi improvements with musical ones in my previous post :)
So what are the snake oil traces? I conceded I would keep my peace, and not use the snake oil phrase until I had tried some cables. I predicted that if I did, and I heard no difference I would hear
1) My hearing is not good enough
2) I bought the wrong cables
3) The electricity in Kent is different
And no-one has, or I suspect will, offer those excuses. At the end of the day, you hear what you hear. Whether what you're hearing is 'right' (in actuality), however, is another matter.... ;)
4) No credible evidence to support the claims is available (slight offence taken that it should be asked for), and the claims are "just trust me, it works"
Again, no-one has said that. We asked you to trust your own ears, which it seems to an extent you've done, although IMO, you've made the mistake of reaching a conclusion before having lived with the new mains leads for an extended period of time (2 weeks is usually enough, IME) to allow your ears to become 'attuned'/accustomed to the effect (if there is one different to that of your standard kettle leads), and then swap back to them.
Furthermore, how exactly do you define "credible evidence" and apply it as a universal given? Someone else may disagree with your valuation of credible and/or consider their own assessment of such as more relevant.
Therefore, I don't think you can say that your experiments have in any way been the most thorough. However, at the end of the day, if you feel satisfied that the conclusion you've reached is 'correct', then that is ALL that matters. If you wish to see the claimed benefits of audiophile designed mains leads as "snake oil", then that is also entirely up to you. It will have no impact whatsoever on my own views and significant experience on the matter.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 08:43
but this bit was thought provoking.
Here we have been going on with 358 posts about mains cables again, with nobody giving any ground and changing their opinion when a really interesting comment which I don't think that I have seen before pops up.
Burn-In! Can we hear the difference? Or is it us getting used to the equipment and cables we have purchased (or borrowed).
My own take is this. Speakers need to be run-in to free up stiff drivers, I get it. Amps, turntables, arms and other source players..... I don't get it. Cartridges....the jury is still out but I suppose the little bung holding the cantilever may need a little running-in.
Cables.........DOH!
.
Yup. Absolutely. Except valves can burn in too - so valve amps, valve dacs. But solid state and cables. Not while there is a hole in my a**e!
The waffle was about boys toys. It's half my explanation of why rational people buy snake oil
The other half, is having shelled out the money, often progressively, they convince themselves there are important differences they can hear
Like burn in - not capable of A:B demo
:cool:
If I didn't know better, I would have suspected that deep down in your hidden heart (I assume its there somewhere) you are a little bit of a cynic:lol:
Join the club.
Healthy scepticism is always good, cynicism isn't, as it indicates a degree of closed-mindedness.
Marco.
I really couldn't be doing with the waffle about electric drills and erections etc, but this bit was thought provoking.
Here we have been going on with 358 posts about mains cables again, with nobody giving any ground and changing their opinion when a really interesting comment which I don't think that I have seen before pops up.
Burn-In! Can we hear the difference? Or is it us getting used to the equipment and cables we have purchased (or borrowed).
My own take is this. Speakers need to be run-in to free up stiff drivers, I get it. Amps, turntables, arms and other source players..... I don't get it. Cartridges....the jury is still out but I suppose the little bung holding the cantilever may need a little running-in.
Cables.........DOH!
I used to be in the trade and often had to set-up and sit through demonstrations, with brand new or shelf stock that had only been used for maybe a couple of hours total. I don't remember anyone asking if the product(s) had been run-in.
I think our ears get used to a new sound after a few hours, days, weeks etc. perhaps it's our ears that are running-in.
Now this might be worth discussion.
Oh sorry forgot to say we always ran-in demo speakers for a couple of days before they were used for demo purposes.
Very fair comment. If differences are very subtle, then my take is that there could be a multitude of other reasons for this, eg mood, time of day or night the system's being listened to, diurnal changes in mains supply, temperature and humidity (esp with cartridges as it affects suspension compliance) etc etc.
As to "burn in", also a valid observation. Yes, mechanical devices need time to bed in as things like speaker suspension and surrounds bed in, but cables etc? Open to conjecture rather than fact as I've personally never seen any evidence to support burn in claims (I'm not saying the phenomina doesn't exist, just that search as you may, you wont find any hard evidence to support the claims). Some believe they do burn-in and others that they don't. With kit, it is less clear cut to my mind as things like crossovers operating at relatively low voltages yet containing fairly large capacitors may need quite a few hours for capacitors to stabilise and until they do, the speakers will not be operating to spec. Valves do change quite measurably within the first 100 hours or so, but in fact it's a degradation or deviation from initial measured spec that occurs here before things stabilise and the drift continues at a far lower rate (unnoticeable for the greater part).
The term "burn in" was I believe hijacked by the audio community from one of the final production processes used to flash valves and perhaps from the baking the ceramic plugs used for their base too and originally, to do with audibility in the hifi chain.
As usualy with these subjects, the truth lies somewhere in between with camps entrenched at either side and a good dollop in the middle perhaps looking both ways ;)
Clive197
10-09-2013, 08:56
Richard, I'll give you valves, that may need to settle down before giving off their best.
Incidentally, Clive, burn-in, as Paul has outlined, is in some cases a very real phenomenon.
The concept may be new to you, and/or perceived as not being considered in this discussion. However, the latter is likely due to the subject having been discussed on the forum many times before, which you may not have been aware of, with being a relative newbie :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 09:04
Healthy scepticism is always good, cynicism isn't, as it indicates a degree of closed-mindedness.
Marco.
Nonsense. I'm a cynic, therefore it is good. Full stop:lol:
Anyway, my mind isn't closed, its worn out.
The other question to consider in all this, gents, of course, is just how much better, for hi-fi purposes, and thus in terms of being able to accurately assess its efficacy in that respect, is a £15 'exotic' mains cable, compared with a kettle lead? ;)
With the best will in the world, and leaving my own bias aside, I'd suggest very little, and that greater expenditure is required, where a cable manufacturer is then able to tackle the problems claimed properly, through the use of higher quality materials and more effective design features in their cables, and where then tangible benefits are more liable to be realised.
This is not intended to be a cop-out; it's simply common sense.
Marco.
Nonsense. I'm a cynic, therefore it is good. Full stop:lol:
Anyway, my mind isn't closed, its worn out.
:lolsign:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
10-09-2013, 09:24
Currently we have no repeatable way of measuring specific phenomena which are described in the various forums, this is a sad fact of life, because of this people will argue continuously. I think the way we try and define these changes is through psychaudiology, so consequently because people are different they have an entrenched and individual opinion. This means that no debate about cables will ever be resolved.
Clive197
10-09-2013, 09:26
Incidentally, Clive, burn-in, as Paul has outlined, is in some cases a very real phenomenon.
The concept may be new to you, and/or perceived as not being considered in this discussion. However, the latter is likely due to the subject having been discussed on the forum many times before, which you may not have been aware of, with being a relative newbie :)
Marco.
Marco I can assure you that I am totally aware of the issue, but you cannot prove that burn-in is a REAL phenomenon.
Can you?
Marco I can assure you that I am totally aware of the issue, but you cannot prove that burn-in is a REAL phenomenon.
Can you?
I experience BurnIn with most of my gear. It has been repeated many times.
And it is not 'getting used to the sound'. The sound changes, especially with the high frequencies which become less sharp/harsh.
Not just speakers - DACs and amps. Even speakers or amps in the attic go through re-burnin.
I dont have to prove it - for me this is fact.
Currently we have no repeatable way of measuring specific phenomena which are described in the various forums, this is a sad fact of life, because of this people will argue continuously. I think the way we try and define these changes is through psychaudiology, so consequently because people are different they have an entrenched and individual opinion. This means that no debate about cables will ever be resolved.
Indeed, Andy, but it doesn't stop us debating the matter regardless! :D
Remember that these discussions often have more of an impact on the silent majority (the 'lurkers' or members merely reading and digesting the contents), than necessarily on the various 'protagonists' here, on either side of the fence... Thousands of people read this forum every day, so never forget that ;)
Incidentally, my views on audio are never 'entrenched'; they are merely valid up until such point as someone can successfully prove to me that what I'm hearing is wrong (a very different thing, incidentally, from quoting scientific 'facts' that, when unchallenged and taken literally, appear to prove me wrong), which at that point they would be updated accordingly. I am a genuinely open-minded and honest person with no ulterior agendas.
So far, however, no-one has been able to do that. Therefore, until such times as that happens, my views shall remain the same on this matter, based on considerable practical experience :)
Marco.
StanleyB
10-09-2013, 09:50
Marco I can assure you that I am totally aware of the issue, but you cannot prove that burn-in is a REAL phenomenon.
Can you?
I can only talk from my own experience with my own equipment, without having to rely on memory or psychological effects. But I have confirmed for myself beyound reasonable doubt that the effect of burn in does exist. I have done A/B comparisons between two brand new DACs to confirm that they sounded the same. I then put one away and put the other one on a burn in test period. I then tested the two again at an average of a week interval. A/B switching was done by my own TC-7240. The two DACs started to develop a difference in sound as time went by.
I have repeated this test numerous times over the years with different models of my DACs. That's why I now include a burn in notice in the operating instructions.
I am not saying that each and every item needs to undergo burn in, but I am satisfied that it exists.
Wakefield Turntables
10-09-2013, 09:55
Indeed, Andy, but it doesn't stop us debating the matter regardless! :D
Remember that these discussions often have more of an impact on the silent majority (the 'lurkers' or members merely reading and digesting the contents), than necessarily on the various 'protagonists' here, on either side of the fence... Thousands of people read this forum every day, so never forget that ;)
Incidentally, my views on audio are never 'entrenched'; they are merely valid up until such point as someone can successfully prove to me that what I'm hearing is wrong, which at that point they would then be updated accordingly. I am a genuinely open-minded and honest person with no ulterior agendas.
So far, however, no-one has been able to do that. Therefore, until such times as that happens, my views shall remain the same on this matter, based on considerable practical experience :)
Marco.
Marco,
This is my take on the situation for what it's worth. I will yield to your point of not having an "entrenched" view, I think a more accurate wording would have been transiently entrenched ! Im open minded too and have rapidly come to the conclusion that worrying about how a cable may or may not affect my vinyl listening is a waste of time, this is because I have no way of being able to quantify changes, THIS MATTERS TO ME!!! At the end of the day, for me, it should be about putting on a slab of vinyl and leaving the world behind for twenty minutes or so.
Ps my view was a generalisation and not specifically aimed at any individual in particular.
Clive197
10-09-2013, 10:00
:more::more::more:
Indeed, Andy, but it doesn't stop us debating the matter regardless! :D
Remember that these discussions often have more of an impact on the silent majority (the 'lurkers' or members merely reading and digesting the contents), than necessarily on the various 'protagonists' here, on either side of the fence... Thousands of people read this forum every day, so never forget that ;)
Incidentally, my views on audio are never 'entrenched'; they are merely valid up until such point as someone can successfully prove to me that what I'm hearing is wrong, which at that point they would then be updated accordingly. I am a genuinely open-minded and honest person with no ulterior agendas.
So far, however, no-one has been able to do that. Therefore, until such times as that happens, my views shall remain the same on this matter, based on considerable practical experience :)
Marco.
I absolutely agree:)
Marco I can assure you that I am totally aware of the issue, but you cannot prove that burn-in is a REAL phenomenon.
Can you?
If you replace the rather woolly term 'burn in' with something more sensible and accurate, such as 'reach a steady and stable state', then that most certainly does apply to some electronic components, and indeed can be measured.
Whether that effect is audible, or applies to mains cables, is another matter and what needs proving, either objectively, through proper scientific testing, or simply enough to satisfy one's own subjective judgement criteria :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:19
Hi Paul
Your inbox is full
:)
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:22
If I didn't know better, I would have suspected that deep down in your hidden heart (I assume its there somewhere) you are a little bit of a cynic:lol:
Join the club.
Cynic is not a word we use on AOS Gordon. I prefer "realist" or "rationalist". But I know where you're coming from mate ;)
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:24
Marco I can assure you that I am totally aware of the issue, but you cannot prove that burn-in is a REAL phenomenon.
Can you?
You could. Take 2 cables. play them both quickly. confirm they are the same. Burn one in for the required time and leave the other one in the fridge, and then try them head to head when the first cable is cooked.
Of course, that assumes that an A:B test can be performed - which it always can. :stalks:
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:30
And no-one has, or I suspect will, offer those excuses. At the end of the day, you hear what you hear. Whether what you're hearing is 'right' (in actuality), however, is another matter.... ;)
Marco.
One at a time
My hearing is not good enough. Not only isn't it, I haven't even been trained in how to hear!!! (Frank - Marco). I can do "dark spaces". It is THE term I would use for the Integral - especially compared with the Arcam 10P. I can dem that convincingly. If you can do it with mains cables, I'll buy the dinner
I bought the wrong cables - "They were only a tenner - what do you expect?"
The electricity in Kent is different - countless posts from Stan and others about where you live making a difference to how you hear a kettle lead (NOT - how a mains filter might affect matters - which might be related to quality of supply, but how a kettle lead sounds)
QED
(keeping my posts short ;))
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:35
Currently we have no repeatable way of measuring specific phenomena which are described in the various forums, this is a sad fact of life, because of this people will argue continuously. I think the way we try and define these changes is through psychaudiology, so consequently because people are different they have an entrenched and individual opinion. This means that no debate about cables will ever be resolved.
It may be the debate will never be solved. However, if a difference exists, and can be observed or demonstrated consistently, then it doesn't really matter what caused it. But I agree - the mind can do strange things, and I think that is at the root of supporting the "differences" which mains cable advocates claim to notice.
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:41
Fed up with wading back to find the posts to reply to but
1) Yes - of course - as I said I would I will give the cables a good long run. My conclusions are preliminary not final as I said. The cables don't spill electricity on the carpet so I am happy to give them a good long go. My conclusions are not finalised, but I can conclusively say any differences which might subsequently emerge were much smaller than the hyperbole led me to believe
2) Re £10 or £15 cables. "The wrong cables" - one of my 3 excuses if you recall. I accept the point you get what you pay for. If mains cables make any difference, I can quite see a £700 cable might reasonably be expected to make a bigger difference than a £10 one. But price isnt everything. If I compared (years ago) a £20 Ortofon VMS 20 with a £20 Shure M95 - they were both low cost but the difference was clear. And mains cables are supposed to make "huge" differences. These cables may have been a tenner - but they were sold as "true audiophile quality" - not "very pretty, but not really going to make any difference". Classic snake-oil traces
3) Long term v short term ( a bit related to the hearing training I apparantly need). No - a separate thread :doh:
Marco,
This is my take on the situation for what it's worth. I will yield to your point of not having an "entrenched" view, I think a more accurate wording would have been transiently entrenched !
Lol - I get where you're coming from, but I’m sorry, that won't do either. The word "entrenched" suggests intransigence and dogmatism, and quite simply, that neither reflects my personality nor my stance on this matter.
A better way to explain it would be to say that, at this moment in time, I'm extremely confident that what I'm hearing is right, but am willing to be proven wrong, and review my opinion, when someone can do so by satisfying MY judgement criteria, in that respect, not theirs! ;)
Im open minded too and have rapidly come to the conclusion that worrying about how a cable may or may not affect my vinyl listening is a waste of time, this is because I have no way of being able to quantify changes, THIS MATTERS TO ME!!! At the end of the day, for me, it should be about putting on a slab of vinyl and leaving the world behind for twenty minutes or so.
I appreciate that, and also the fact that what we all consider as important is different. Whilst I'd like to be able to quantify changes, and would consider it interesting and educational, I have no real need to do so. In the meantime, I'm perfectly happy to trust, after due consideration, what I am told by the God-given organs on the sides of my head!
Regarding the last bit... Oh yeah, for sure, goodness grief, if would be a sad day if it were any different! I've got the new album by The Milk Carton Kids playing as I write this, and am enjoying it immensely, so I can assure you that fretting over the effect of mains cables is the last thing on my mind. They're simply there, doing the job that they were intended to do, as outlined earlier.... :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 10:55
Lets separate these 2. Burn in - components sounding different over time - totally accepted in principle. Huge reservations regarding cables, but never mind for now.
Long term effects. This is THE opening for the mind playing tricks. It allows us to justify after the event what we expect or want to occur. And for sure - we get used to something. But be really careful. I mentioned I will run the cables for a while and evaluate later. Not for "burn in". But to see if there is something subtle. I mentioned the vinyl / cd thing but they are not really the same. So I am not sure I accept this phenomena as real either - I think the point I am about to clarify is hijacked as a justification for imagining things
The significance of the difference between CD (except on DaCapo 22 bit) and vinyl is only apparent to me over long term listening. Not the difference itself. That is immediately apparant. I can hear clearly the difference between the CD and vinyl every time (not least due to record noise, but other differences too). What becomes apparent over time is which of those 2 is better.
At A:B I can hear the difference and may prefer CD. More detail perhaps. Certainly, in the context of my current system, CD has better bass extension.
However, given there is a real difference (probably many differences), which can be heard, and i can prove it in a blind test, what is NOT apparent is which is better. Over the long term, I find I prefer vinyl, whilst in the short A:B I may have preferred CD. That manifests itself in me happily listening to vinyl for hours on end, and getting bored and making a cup of tea when I put CD on.
So it splits in 2. Can you hear the difference (trained, dare I say just to be naughty, Golden ears here). Yup - immediate. Capable of A:B. Will stand up to a blind test
Can I decide which is better - yup - but only over time. Long term listening determines whats important.
So trained ear listening techniques help in doing the evaluations to sort out what is different. But it is perfectly possible that it takes the long term listen to appreciate which of those differences is better.
That is NOT the same as saying the difference can only be heard after a long term listen. It is just that it may only be possible to appreciate it after a long listen
I can hear no difference, so long term evaluation is not really relevant .
Lunch, then some work :cool:
Wakefield Turntables
10-09-2013, 11:01
It may be the debate will never be solved. However, if a difference exists, and can be observed or demonstrated consistently, then it doesn't really matter what caused it. But I agree - the mind can do strange things, and I think that is at the root of supporting the "differences" which mains cable advocates claim to notice.
"if" a difference exists! That says it all, so we are not really sure are we? So what's the point in arguing over something that may not even exist?
Lol - I get where you're coming from, but I’m sorry, that won't do either. The word "entrenched" suggests intransigence and dogmatism, and quite simply, that neither reflects my personality nor my stance on this matter.
A better way to explain it would be to say that, at this moment in time, I'm extremely confident that what I'm hearing is right, but am willing to be proven wrong, and review my opinion, when someone can do so by satisfying MY judgement criteria, in that respect, not theirs! ;)
I appreciate that, and also the fact that what we all consider as important is different. Whilst I'd like to be able to quantify changes, and would consider it interesting and educational, I have no real need to do so. In the meantime, I'm perfectly happy to trust, after due consideration, what I am told by the God-given organs on the sides of my head!
Regarding the last bit... Oh yeah, for sure, goodness grief, if would be a sad day if it were any different! I've got the new album by The Milk Carton Kids playing as I write this, and am enjoying it immensely, so I can assure you that fretting over the effect of mains cables is the last thing on my mind. They're simply there, doing the job that they were intended to do, as outlined earlier.... :)
Marco.
:rfl:
Marco, my musings are not about you personally, so don't read too much into them. I'm not suggesting you are either dogmatic or stuck in your ways, that's quite a big leap of judgement to say that I've never met you. Anyway, I've said my 2 cents worth and shall take no further part in this debate. I don't think I have anything new to add. :)
Hi Richard,
1) Yes - of course - as I said I would I will give the cables a good long run. My conclusions are preliminary not final as I said.
Then why make daft outbursts such as this, until you've totally made up your mind??
Yup. Absolutely. Except valves can burn in too - so valve amps, valve dacs. But solid state and cables. Not while there is a hole in my a**e!
The waffle was about boys toys. It's half my explanation of why rational people buy snake oil
The other half, is having shelled out the money, often progressively, they convince themselves there are important differences they can hear
That very clearly suggests to me (including your use of the term "snake oil"), that you've already made up your mind, if indeed it wasn't already made up even before you received the cables!! There is such a thing called 'reverse expectation bias' ;)
Not only that, you proceed to demean the valid experiences of others, which are contrary to yours, by coming out with the rather old chestnut referred to in your last paragraph :doh:
Let me assure you, quite categorically, that this 'rational person' does not neatly fit into your suggested pigeonhole..........!
2) Re £10 or £15 cables. "The wrong cables" - one of my 3 excuses if you recall. I accept the point you get what you pay for.
Well, if you accept that point, then you also have to accept the possibility that the cables you received are not good enough to better what you already had.
If mains cables make any difference, I can quite see a £700 cable might reasonably be expected to make a bigger difference than a £10 one. But price isnt everything. If I compared (years ago) a £20 Ortofon VMS 20 with a £20 Shure M95 - they were both low cost but the difference was clear.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Richard. If you honestly expect the nature of the improvement gained from upgrading your mains cables to mirror that of a cartridge change, then NO WONDER you can't hear a difference!! The two are different entities :eyebrows:
I'm afraid that this is where your inexperience of experimenting with the former, and knowing what to expect to hear (or not), is clouding your judgement.
Marco.
P.S with respect, you're also starting to 'waffle' again, which makes reading and deciphering your posts very difficult and time-consuming, and thus stifles any willingness to respond. Therefore, if you don't want me to ignore what you're writing, simply through fatigue, then please keep your replies SHORT AND TO THE POINT, and also not spread out over three or four posts, as that doesn't help either.
Ta! :cool:
Oh, and Richard, one last thing before I go for lunch, as someone else has already asked, I would like you to IDENTIFY and DESCRIBE what you heard, sonically and musically in your system, the latter using a familiar piece of music as an example, when changing from your bog-standard kettle leads to the 'super-dooper' ones David sent - and most importantly WHY, to your ears, the latter offered no discernible improvement over the former.
I'm sorry, but given what you've written so far, I'd like you to prove that you are able to do that before I can take your views on this matter seriously. Take as long as you need for this.
Okies, my Spaghetti with fresh clams, tomato sauce and chilies awaits, as does the chilled bottle of Orvieto that will accompany it! Laters :cheers:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 11:54
.. I post this with no personal axe to grind......merely out of disinterested devilment:mad:
I read it on another forum. 1981 huh!! Lots has changed then. Its quite long so apologies for boring you all. I have removed the very unkind name the psychologist gives the people afflicted with this dreadful disease.
HI-FI FETISHISM
A psychologist's view of the l***** f*****
J. Zelinger
Many of us are becoming increasingly aware of those audiophiles who show an extraordinary preoccupation with hi-fi equipment for its own sake. Contributors to as well as readers of HFN/RR have expressed irritation with this so-called l***** f*****, which has been repeatedly criticized for being out of touch with reality.
The symptoms of this preoccupation are well known: an inclination to attach enormous significance to audio equipment’s capacity to induce sonic pleasure and an inordinate emphasis on the sensuality of the reproduced sound, with a consequent tendency to relegate the music itself to a secondary position. We can also recognize in this obsessional interest a need to amplify very small differences between audio components out of all proportion to their true value. These audiophiles are prone to convert such differences into preferences, and institute them as rigid ideals.
It is easy enough to dismiss the l***** f*****. but it is more important to try to understand it. With this purpose in mind I wish to undertake a brief analysis of the psychology of this group of audiophiles.
I know that some readers may feel uneasy with psychology intruding upon the sphere of musical reproduction, but perhaps they can reassure themselves with the thought that psychological knowledge has been partly responsible for bringing some ‘sanity' into the controlled subjective assessment of hi-fi equipment. What is more, techniques evolved in the psychological laboratory have been useful in solving a variety of psychoacoustical problems. However, while these applications have been primarily directed at the perception of reproduced music and speech, I am proposing now that we focus our attention on some aspects of the personality of this special group of audiophiles.
Naturally this kind of investigation will require a different approach and I expect some readers will find the topic under discussion unfamiliar. But I have made every effort to draw upon our common experiences of musical reproduction in arguing my case.
Some of you will wonder how I have collected my data, but discretion requires that I say little. I can tell you that I have had discussions with members of this group and have also observed auditioning sessions with some of these people. In addition, I have examined the linguistic content of their magazines.
For most of us, listening to a chosen disc would involve placing the record on a turntable and making the audio equipment operational. Thereafter we are free to listen – our focus of attention is on the music. Our attention may drawn away from the music by the reproduction of an unexpected pressing defect, which may prove irritating temporarily; but we accommodate to this nuisance and re-establish the original focus of attention.
Another sort of non-musical sound may prove more disturbing. For instance, our attention may be drawn away from the music by a loud hum issuing from the loudspeakers. Perhaps this is due to an electrical fault in one of our components, and as it is more difficult to tolerate this kind of disturbance, the faulty component may have to be repaired in order to restore our musical pleasure.
In quite a different situation we may actually choose to weaken our attention to the music and shift the focus to some characteristics of an audio component. I am thinking of the situation in which one would audition a selection of loudspeakers with the aim of making a purchase, when some models may produce disturbing colorations or other undesirable sounds. At times such as these, listening to the music, while still the main justification of our activity, is relegated to a subordinate position. The audible characteristics of the equipment are the matter at hand, and it is these that we judge. We search for differences and try to establish preferences.
I am citing these examples in order to underline the common basis of all listeners' responses to musical reproduction. We should recognize that the relationship between our listening to music and our listening to the characteristic sound of audio equipment is not a constant one. It can shift if the circumstances demand it, but it is clear that members of the l***** f***** have shifted an unusually large proportion of their attention over to the audio equipment.
This shift is not a temporary one. It is long-term. For this group of audiophiles hi-fi equipment does not merely serve the purpose of listening through, rather it has also become something to listen to. We can say that members of this group have relegated the music itself to a position of lesser prominence. This view is further justified on the basis of additional evidence: the lunatic fringe insist that their access to musical pleasure is dependent on the special characteristics of the audio equipment that they own or aspire to own. It is as if the real aim of musical reproduction, to listen to an account of a musical composition, is displaced. It is displaced onto an object (the audio equipment) which becomes at least as important a source of pleasure for the listener. I will refer to this phenomenon as hi-fi fetishism.
I feel fully justified in employing a term which derives its meaning from an extreme form of sexual behaviour; but I am sure you need to be convinced of the applicability of this nomenclature. Typically, a fetishist is someone who has endowed an inanimate object (eg a piece of underclothing, a high-heeled shoe) with sexual significance. He or she requires the presence of this fetish in order to become sexually aroused, and this is the case regardless of whether a human subject is present. Sexual pleasure is entirely dependent on the fetish.
This form of sexual behaviour, while no doubt extreme, is really a gross amplification of normal responses. We are all capable of investing an inanimate object with sexual significance, but what has happened for the fetishist is that the usual source of sexual pleasure, another human being, is replaced by an object which itself becomes the source of pleasure.
In the case of the hi-fi fetishist the true object of his pleasure. the music, has been displaced. Or to put it another way, this pleasure has become dependent upon the particular characteristics of the audio equipment. This is not to suggest that the hi-fi fetishist likes music less, it is simply that a shift of attention has placed the emotional and perceptual priority firmly on the audio equipment. This accounts for the equipment's transformation into a fetish.
We observed that the sexual fetishist endows an inanimate object with powers not normally assigned to it. Thus without any alteration in its real nature that object is aggrandized and exalted. It has magical powers assigned to it which resonate on a level of fantasy in the mind of the fetishist. I think it is possible to explain the hi-fi fetishist's attitude of over-estimation and over-valuation by recourse to the same process of idealization. Look at it this way. A piece of music we love will have the power to move us whether we hear it reproduced via a music-centre or a high quality system; this is the power of art. Indeed, many of us may describe this encounter with the music as magical. But what happens in the case of the hi-fi fetishist who has shifted the psychological priority from the music to the reproducing equipment? Musical pleasure (as with sexual pleasure) becomes dependent on the magical properties of the fetish, the audio equipment. But audio components do not possess any magical properties – they are under the control of the laws of physics.
Like the sexual fetishist, the hi-fi fetishist cannot fully bend to the demands of reality for the simple reason that his relationship to the fetish is active on a level of fantasy. Of course, the hi-fi fetishist is not completely out of touch with reality, otherwise he would need to deny the existence of the laws of physics. Therefore, in order to ‘accommodate' his magical thinking to reality he modifies it so that he can still enjoy the pleasure afforded to him by his hi-fi system. We see these modifications appearing in the hi-fi press in the form of mystification. This reconstituted form of magical thinking is transparent to all those who are not under its power, but for those who are, it is very convincing.
The form that this mystifying language takes is quite evocative, which it must be in order to maintain the imaginary intensity of the fetish under review. The characteristics of this language are well known: they are ambiguous. motoric, sensual. Here are four examples. Notice the way the audio equipment is assigned a fetishistic value: it can excite and arouse emotion, or fail to do so.
Pay attention to the implied sensuality and physicality. No doubt you will recognize the tendency toward over-estimation. Finally, try to bear in mind that the fetishist can no longer sustain a normal relationship to music but needs audio equipment of a certain kind to allow him access to musical pleasure. (I have retained the anonymity of the following selected samples, but they are representative of some of the popular British hi-fi press. Brand names have been edited out.)
But given the right amp and speakers, the speed and dynamics of xyz mean that a whole gamut of musical emotions can be reproduced.
Speed... is very difficult to put into words. The speed of a system has an effect on the overall perspective with which it is perceived and the level of excitement it can generate...
The transformation of sound when switching to the xyz was mind-blowing. The improvements in bass tightness and detail, imagery and general low-level detail resolution was of such a magnitude as to make confirmatory A-B listening tests redundant and pointless.... [With this pickup arm] more emotion in vocals and in musical expression was obvious, and it became far easier to get into the music.
My conclusion after listening was that xyz was more capable of conveying intangible things like the degree of commitment displayed by musicians in a performance...
At this stage I think we can claim to have a better understanding of the hi-fi fetishist's special relationship to his audio equipment. Yet we need to go a little deeper than this to appreciate fully the psychological importance of the fetish.
Let us turn to the sphere of sexual fetishism again in order to get our bearings. As we have observed, the fetishist has difficulty in functioning in a normal sexual manner; his natural responses have been distorted. He cannot establish a sexual relationship with another person unless it is mediated by the fetish, and sexual arousal is dependent on the fetish. This indicates, and clinical studies confirm this, that the fetishist feels sexually inadequate in the presence of a human subject. Being under his control, the fetish does not pose this threat to its owner, and thus allows to him the potency he would otherwise lack.
Before I begin building the bridge between this feature of sexual fetishism and hi-fi fetishism I must cite a few more familiar examples, otherwise what I have to say may meet with strong opposition. I am sure we are familiar with a particular remark that reviewers sometimes make at the conclusion of their test reports. Having assessed an excellent audio component which is outside their own financial reach, they say that they are sorry to see it go. While the professional reviewer is fully aware of the component's virtues he does not feel compelled to purchase it – because reality, financial reality, is a major consideration.
As we would expect, financial realities are not handled with such objectivity by members of the l***** f***** Should a very expensive ‘better' component come onto the market they will somehow find the means to acquire it. For example, upon the appearance of a new and very expensive audiophile product a fetishist remarked: ‘If it is better I’ll have to buy it'. This continual search for perfection, or ‘up-grading' as it is sometimes called, can lead to financial disaster. Under severe pressure from debts many a member of the l***** f***** has been forced to sell his highly prized system.
From our observations of the lamenting reviewer we can predict the reaction of the hi-fi fetishist to separation from his audio equipment. Of course, in the latter case the stakes are higher; consequently, the sense of loss is far greater. He describes his feelings as depression, a sense of emptiness, depletion, etc. Do not be surprized by the depth of his feelings. Have we not observed that the fetishist maintains his relationship to the equipment on a level of fantasy? We should, therefore, expect the same fantasy relationship to operate in his separation from the fetish.
One more bit of evidence would be in order before I present my final interpretation. We all know how hi-fi fetishists defend their choice of components tenaciously. For example, writing in the hi-fi press a ‘reviewer' may aggrandise and exalt a piece of audio equipment. He insinuates that his fetish is ‘better' or ‘best', assuming its superiority and implicitly demeaning any competing products. What is also evident here is a wish to be envied for the possession of an idealized object. One can even discern a sense of triumph (see the letters of Mr. Ted Meyer, HFN/RR April 1980). However, I have observed that when a fetishist discovers that someone else's equipment is superior, his reaction is akin to narcissistic injury.
We are now in a much better position to understand the psychological significance of the hi-fi fetish. I would like to suggest that the fetishist treats the fetish as an extension of himself. To be more accurate, we should say that the fetish is a representation of his ideal self. Does the fetish not give him the powers he would like to have? Does it not lend him the authority he needs? Surely his passionate claims for sonic superiority and audio perfectionism confirm this; as do his establishment of rigid ideals. Indeed, he tenaciously defends his choice of equipment because he measures his ego against this ideal. Thus the hi-fi equipment acts as a mirror to the ideal self.
No doubt you are still wondering why it is that among audiophiles only some become fetishists, while the majority remain mere enthusiasts. Here generalizations about psychological dispositions become more difficult, but perhaps one can go a little way toward a solution by examining the effects of fetishistic publicity in the hi-fi press. As I see it, this publicity – in the form of reviews and test reports as well as paid advertising – is partly responsible for leading young people into the l***** f***** . Study shows that this publicity begins by working on one's natural appetite for pleasure. But the pleasure it appeals to is the pleasure of ownership. While musical pleasure is held to be the ultimate aim, this kind of publicity really glorifies the pleasure of having a certain audio component. It proposes to offer us something better, something better than we have now, and this way it works on our insecurity or doubt and sets up an insidious form of envy.
As we would expect, rational assessment can do very little against such feelings; it is a poor weapon against the mystifications of fetishistic publicity. I might add that manufacturers who allow themselves to be exalted and aggrandized by fetishists in the same manner as their products are doing themselves a disservice. For they too are indulging in a form of narcissistic gratification and are lending yet further credibility to the l***** f*****
From Hi-Fi News and Record Review, October 1981
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 11:58
.. I post this with no personal axe to grind......merely out of disinterested devilment:mad:
I read it on another forum. 1981 huh!! Lots has changed then. Its quite long so apologies for boring you all. I have removed the very unkind name the psychologist gives the people afflicted with this dreadful disease.
HI-FI FETISHISM
Quite long? Whats your definition of absurdly long then? I warned you about this when you sent it to me. You won't listen will you? :eek:
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 12:01
Quite long? Whats your definition of absurdly long then? I warned you about this when you sent it to me. You won't listen will you? :eek:
Nah, my mind is closed!!:eyebrows:
Sorry, Gordon - that's WAY too long and boring to read (and what seems just like a rambling drone from someone with an agenda)... You'd have been better quoting selectively from the text that which you considered best supported your argument.
4 out of 10, so back to the remedial class, my boy! :wave: :ner:
Right, my pasta is getting cold....
Marco.
.
It is one of the reasons why I think that some people, unless they can 'train' their brains to behave along those lines, will never experience the fundamental musical benefits others obtain by optimising how their hi-fi system receives power from the mains supply, and thus the long-term musical satisfaction this brings from having one's system properly 'sorted' in that way.
Marco.
Marco
Do you need help opening that massive can of worms? That does sound like soemthing that a manufacturer of very expensive cables might say. If you make a change in a system then there can only be 2 options - no difference or some difference. If there is some difference then it is either better or worse. You are saying with mains cables that you need to train your brain to hear the difference, otherwise you won't hear it? If I've misinterpreted what you have said then apologies but otherwise - Come off it!
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 12:18
Oh, and Richard, one last thing before I go for lunch, as someone else has already asked, I would like you to IDENTIFY and DESCRIBE what you heard, sonically and musically in your system, the latter using a familiar piece of music as an example, when changing from your bog-standard kettle leads to the 'super-dooper' ones David sent - and most importantly WHY, to your ears, the latter offered no discernible improvement over the former.
I'm sorry, but given what you've written so far, I'd like you to prove that you are able to do that before I can take your views on this matter seriously. Take as long as you need for this.
Okies, my Spaghetti with fresh clams, tomato sauce and chilies awaits, as does the chilled bottle of Orvieto that will accompany it! Laters :cheers:
Marco.
Marco
I listed the music I listened to and my initial responses to it on an earlier post. The reason the new cables offered no discernible improvement was that - they sounded identical. :doh:
Now - before I can take your views on this matter seriously, I would like you to get a sheet, an extension lead, a standard kettle lead, and get your wife or any other willing assistant to arrange to switch between your donkeys walloper and the kettle lead, concealed by the sheet, and for you to record the accuracy of your assessments as to which was playing on at least 10 samples. Take as many days as you like - listen to each for as long as you like and report back to me.
I dare say you won't - and you'll take offence, but I only played your message back to you. It's your forum, your rules I guess. I have pretty much drawn my conclusions. Not because I have exhausted all investigation possible, but because I have witnessed the ground shifting beneath my feet regarding expectations.
That £10 cable did not claim to be "ever so slightly, barely discernibly, possibly better some days". It was "true audiophile quality". Moving from a non-audiophile ceramic cartridge, to an audiophile moving magnet for £25 produces a huge leap. In spite of the hyperbole from yourself and others, moving from a cooking lead to an "audiophile" lead should not be expected to make any difference - unless listening training is undertaken. Never mind a forum - have you thought about running an audiophile training college? :steam:
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 12:21
Marco
Do you need help opening that massive can of worms? That does sound like soemthing that a manufacturer of very expensive cables might say. If you make a change in a system then there can only be 2 options - no difference or some difference. If there is some difference then it is either better or worse. You are saying with mains cables that you need to train your brain to hear the difference, otherwise you won't hear it? If I've misinterpreted what you have said then apologies but otherwise - Come off it!
Breathtaking - would you write the rest of my posts for me please - awesome! :cool:
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 12:34
Sorry, Gordon - that's WAY too long and boring to read (and what seems as just a rambling drone from someone with an agenda)... You'd have been better quoting selectively from the text that which you consider confirms your argument.
4 out of 10 - back to the remedial class, my boy! :wave: :ner:
Right, my pasta is getting cold....
Marco.
But I don't have an argument or even an agenda. I actually thought someone might be interested, it was clear you wouldn't be:)
Marco
Do you need help opening that massive can of worms? That does sound like soemthing that a manufacturer of very expensive cables might say. If you make a change in a system then there can only be 2 options - no difference or some difference. If there is some difference then it is either better or worse. You are saying with mains cables that you need to train your brain to hear the difference, otherwise you won't hear it? If I've misinterpreted what you have said then apologies...
Indeed you have, so apologies accepted! :)
I'm simply asking Richard to describe what he heard when conducting the comparison, the same as I would, or most other audio enthusiasts here under the same circumstances. This is what an audio forum is for, you know, to discuss and relate our experiences, preferably in some detail?
If you're suggesting that simply saying 'I heard no difference', or some such, after conducting a mains cable comparison, without making a reasonable effort to qualify that, is enough to be acceptable, then I'll remember that next time I'm reviewing power supplies, turntables, cartridges or whatever, for the forum - it'll certainly cut my workload in half!! ;)
Marco.
'We all know how hi-fi fetishists defend their choice of components tenaciously'
Interesting article Gordon. Quite a few home truths there, of which the above example is but one. In my (former) profession I dealt with criminals, or rather the criminals who were caught, and it was a fascinating experience. I never kept any statistics but assuredly the percentage of them who acknowledged (at least to me, their counsel) that they had erred - well, 'fucked up' is how they would put it - is vastly in excess as a percentage than of audiophiles who would admit to buying something that 'made no difference'.
The point is; well I dunno, make of it what you will.
Marco
I listed the music I listened to and my initial responses to it on an earlier post. The reason the new cables offered no discernible improvement was that - they sounded identical. :doh:
Now - before I can take your views on this matter seriously, I would like you to get a sheet, an extension lead, a standard kettle lead, and get your wife or any other willing assistant to arrange to switch between your donkeys walloper and the kettle lead, concealed by the sheet, and for you to record the accuracy of your assessments as to which was playing on at least 10 samples. Take as many days as you like - listen to each for as long as you like and report back to me.
I dare say you won't - and you'll take offence, but I only played your message back to you. It's your forum, your rules I guess. I have pretty much drawn my conclusions. Not because I have exhausted all investigation possible, but because I have witnessed the ground shifting beneath my feet regarding expectations.
That £10 cable did not claim to be "ever so slightly, barely discernibly, possibly better some days". It was "true audiophile quality". Moving from a non-audiophile ceramic cartridge, to an audiophile moving magnet for £25 produces a huge leap. In spite of the hyperbole from yourself and others, moving from a cooking lead to an "audiophile" lead should not be expected to make any difference - unless listening training is undertaken. Never mind a forum - have you thought about running an audiophile training college? :steam:
Richard, now you're being ridiculous and overdramatic... Where is the harm in writing a little review, describing what you heard, using a piece of familiar music as a reference? It's what is often considered as the norm on a forum for enthusiasts, such as this.
Judging by the evidence seen here, you're not exactly shy of using a keyboard, lol!! See the 'Strokes of Genius' section for some tips... ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 12:56
Fun here isn't it?
Seriously though, I think the different opinions and views make for fascinating conversation. I can't complain about anything. I went through all the stuff that I now consider, shall we say, a bit doubtful, when I was younger and happily convinced myself that it was money well spent.
Now I think I know better but I have been wrong before. I remember the day very well...................
Basically, Richard, I'm simply asking for what Alan S requested way back on page 34, and which so far hasn't been forthcoming :)
When can we expect to hear your SQ findings with your self assembled cables?
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Forgive me, however, if I've missed it amongst your various 'epistles' :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Basically, Richard, I'm simply asking for what Alan S requested way back on page 34, and which so far hasn't been forthcoming :)
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Forgive me, however, if I've missed it amongst your various 'epistles' :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
yep you missed it - post 286 on pg 29:
Conclusion: I cannot conclusively hear any difference. I would not risk 5 pence in a bet I could tell in a blind test. I would bet £10 with as many zeros added as you like that I can tell Integral from Arcam 10P, FX3 from F5, Goldring 1022 from Technics cartridge. It comes back to my very early post about differences that matter (all of those ones I would risk a bet on a blind test) and ones which don't. I could walk into the room after a week and tell you which arm is playing blind. No A:B's needed. Ditto the cartridge and power amp. To my surprise, the power amp most of all really matters - I need to get shot of it (not that it's bad - just leaving me wanting). And that's the first excuse.
Further conclusion: I thought I heard loads of differences - but kept changing my mind.
Gordon PM'd me a link to a 1981 HFN/RR article about hifi fetishism during this. I took a real fetishist approach - notepad in hand this morning.
So - last night, just plugged em in and listened - first time in a couple of days I had listened to anything, only time for a few minutes before the curfew. Plugged into my distribution block
Joan Armatrading - "I am not in love". Wow! Is it louder? A really "in the room" performance. OMG I may be joining the faithful
Katie Melua - "Nobody knows you when you are down and out - Superb. Rich - "real" (it always is)
Just before going to bed, remembered I had changed the resistors on the header!!!
This morning MCRU was left in , so up first. (still in mains block)
Genesis 2nds out - Firth of Fifth
"cymbals clearer" (I have been having a bit of a cymbals thing with this new cartridge)
Unstressed
Great drum break
Kettle leads
Cymbals every bit as good
Quieter
Bass more tuneful
Drums even crisper
(I think this "difference" was 2 things. Listening more closely on things I had noticed first time, and just maybe, the stylus cleaning the record during the first play)
Turn up the wick a bit (Still "comfortable")
Leave kettle leads in to go first
Janis Ian - Restless Eyes - title track
Really good
Bass weight and pace
Bass guitar like real
Mid - vocals bit strident (record label)
cymbals are back!!
switch to MCRU - still in mains block
Same
Quieter (record cleaning?)
Cleaner?
Strident vocals again
Back to Katie M "Gold in them hills"
MCRU - direct to wall (extension lead not batteries found for Pink Triangle - also used when switching to kettle leads)
Record noisy
Bit Forward (arm?)
VERY F5!
Smooth - separate instruments but F5
remember acoustic guitar left channel
Switch to kettle leads in mains block (means taking stuff apart to get them to reach the wall direct- TT power supply still direct from extension lead)
Less strident ?
Noticed guitar earlier
IDENTICAL!
Other Excuses :
These are inexpensive cables
Although subject to power cuts regularly, I suspect our mains is pretty good. No obvious difference not using my filter block
Would rather have FX3, classical music, and the Integral amp for a definitive evaluation
Not really listened enough to DEFINITELY say no difference, but any differences which exist are tiny
Lol... Well, that must've been one of the (many) times I was simply very quickly scan-reading Richard's posts (can anyone blame me?) :eek: Alan S obviously missed it, too!! :D
Confirming that, and no offence to Richard, but the above is not exactly easy to read or decipher quickly is it? :doh: Sorry, but I can't really make head nor tail of it. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer some proper sentence structure and a reasonable degree of cohesion! ;)
Anyway, the discussion is now getting a little circular. Richard has heard what he heard and concluded what he's concluded, so I'll leave it there.
Marco.
If he didn't hear a difference, he didn't hear a difference. Though somewhat garbled, the notes suggest that there was nothing in the sound when using the MCRU cable to reliably differentiate it from the sound when using the kettle lead.
I'm not of the view that one needs to 'educate' one's ears; after all isn't subjectivism supposed to be about trusting what your ears tell you?
If you're suggesting that simply saying 'I heard no difference', or some such, after conducting a mains cable comparison, without making a reasonable effort to qualify that, is enough to be acceptable, then I'll remember that next time I'm reviewing power supplies, turntables, cartridges or whatever, for the forum - it'll certainly cut my workload in half!! ;)
Marco.
I borrowed an expensive mains block for a couple of weeks a while back, and the music sounded exactly the same through the expensive block as it did through the £5 Maplins block I previously used. So my review, had I written one, would have been 'The two blocks sounded the same'. I'm not sure how else I could describe the experience of hearing no difference.
...and that Joe, is why you're such an asset to forums! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
If he didn't hear a difference, he didn't hear a difference. Though somewhat garbled, the notes suggest that there was nothing in the sound when using the MCRU cable to reliably differentiate it from the sound when using the kettle lead.
Indeed, and now that I've sat down and read and understood it to the best of my ability, I would agree. Trouble is, one doesn't always have the time to do that, which is why, with long posts, I always try and ensure that they are as easy to read and digest 'at a glance'. When it comes to writing about one's listening experiences, I also like some proper 'meat on the bone', as it were.
Anyway, none of that dilutes or detracts from the validity of what Richard wrote, although I'm not sure if we'd have been given even that much detail had he not been prompted by the article Gordon sent him to, I quote: "adopt the fetishist approach"! ;)
I'm not of the view that one needs to 'educate' one's ears; after all isn't subjectivism supposed to be about trusting what your ears tell you?
Yes, based on your relevant experience, and of course that differs from person to person - and inevitably some will have more than others. However, for me, subjectivism isn't simply about trusting your ears, at least not automatically or implicitly. It's more about trusting them as the FINAL arbiter.
One should always question what one hears in audio and test for its validity - but that doesn't mean employing the use of an oscilloscope or having a penchant for creating 'squiggly graphs' is a prerequisite!!
Marco.
[Trusting one's ears]
Yes, based on your relevant experience, and of course that differs from person to person - and inevitably some will have more than others. However, for me, subjectivism isn't simply about trusting your ears, at least not automatically or implicitly. It's more about trusting them as the FINAL arbiter.
One should always question what one hears in audio and test for its validity - but that doesn't mean employing the use of an oscilloscope or having a penchant for creating 'squiggly graphs' is a prerequisite!!
Marco.
If you want to know if you're actually hearing a difference as opposed to imagining one, then blind testing is the only way to be sure, but for me personally, just hearing a difference is sufficient in itself. As often as not, I can't hear any difference at all between components, but when I do hear a difference, my preference is usually clear.
Figlet108
10-09-2013, 15:52
Just for fun and with no agenda or comment I thought I'd post a photo of the mains cable Electricity Northwest currently use as the 'last few metres of cable' to the house from the grid (we just had some work done and they left me 3 metres of cable to play with when I confessed to them my sad obsession with cable :) )
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B5YMUBZKHlE/Ui8xG6lkPAI/AAAAAAAACIw/YFO1bp58A5I/w1797-h1198-no/IMG_7410_resize.JPG
It looks to me like 6mm of solid aluminum core for the live, with 18x 1mm solid copper 'armour' on the outside which is used as the neutral/earth.
I was genuinely surprised to see aluminium core but I guess it's cheaper than copper and more bendable?
I did ask the Electricity Northwest engineers if that had a better quality audiophile cable they could use instead of that aluminium crap (I suggested maybe some Furutech), but they just stared at me silently blinking... :mental:
I have a day job you know. And neighbours - so not before 9am. This will be a long one I'm afraid - whilst its fresh in my mind (though I took notes)
Conclusion first, excuses afterwards.
Conclusion: I cannot conclusively hear any difference. I would not risk 5 pence in a bet I could tell in a blind test. I would bet £10 with as many zeros added as you like that I can tell Integral from Arcam 10P, FX3 from F5, Goldring 1022 from Technics cartridge. It comes back to my very early post about differences that matter (all of those ones I would risk a bet on a blind test) and ones which don't. I could walk into the room after a week and tell you which arm is playing blind. No A:B's needed. Ditto the cartridge and power amp. To my surprise, the power amp most of all really matters - I need to get shot of it (not that it's bad - just leaving me wanting). And that's the first excuse.;)
Further conclusion: I thought I heard loads of differences - but kept changing my mind.
Gordon PM'd me a link to a 1981 HFN/RR article about hifi fetishism during this. I took a real fetishist approach - notepad in hand this morning.
So - last night, just plugged em in and listened - first time in a couple of days I had listened to anything, only time for a few minutes before the curfew. Plugged into my distribution block
Joan Armatrading - "I am not in love". Wow! Is it louder? A really "in the room" performance. OMG I may be joining the faithful
Katie Melua - "Nobody knows you when you are down and out - Superb. Rich - "real" (it always is)
Just before going to bed, remembered I had changed the resistors on the header!!!
This morning MCRU was left in , so up first. (still in mains block)
Genesis 2nds out - Firth of Fifth
"cymbals clearer" (I have been having a bit of a cymbals thing with this new cartridge)
Unstressed
Great drum break
Kettle leads
Cymbals every bit as good
Quieter
Bass more tuneful
Drums even crisper
(I think this "difference" was 2 things. Listening more closely on things I had noticed first time, and just maybe, the stylus cleaning the record during the first play)
Turn up the wick a bit (Still "comfortable")
Leave kettle leads in to go first
Janis Ian - Restless Eyes - title track
Really good
Bass weight and pace
Bass guitar like real
Mid - vocals bit strident (record label)
cymbals are back!!
switch to MCRU - still in mains block
Same
Quieter (record cleaning?)
Cleaner?
Strident vocals again
Back to Katie M "Gold in them hills"
MCRU - direct to wall (extension lead not batteries found for Pink Triangle - also used when switching to kettle leads)
Record noisy
Bit Forward (arm?)
VERY F5!
Smooth - separate instruments but F5
remember acoustic guitar left channel
Switch to kettle leads in mains block (means taking stuff apart to get them to reach the wall direct- TT power supply still direct from extension lead)
Less strident ?
Noticed guitar earlier
IDENTICAL!
Other Excuses :
These are inexpensive cables
Although subject to power cuts regularly, I suspect our mains is pretty good. No obvious difference not using my filter block
Would rather have FX3, classical music, and the Integral amp for a definitive evaluation
Not really listened enough to DEFINITELY say no difference, but any differences which exist are tiny
enough for now - that do you Macca? :cool:
Found it. Probably ignored it due to its length. The conclusions were all I was interested in, even a yes or no difference would be beautifully concise. Your longer posts I ignore, they seldom entertain or inform even if you enjoy posting them.
All the best
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 16:11
Found it. Probably ignored it due to its length. The conclusions were all I was interested in, even a yes or no difference would be beautifully concise. Your longer posts I ignore, they seldom entertain or inform even if you enjoy posting them.
All the best
Yes - I did post my conclusion at the front so you didn't need to read the rest if you didn't want to
Had that been all I posted - then Marco would have complained it needed an essay and my audiophile certificate in competent listening. I was ahead of him - and not because of Gordon's article. Because, albeit long ago, I worked in this racket ;) So I know how to audition when I am reviewing, and sit back and enjoy the music when I am not. Gordon's article, if you bothered to read it, suggested the fetishist couldn't distinguish the two (although would claim they could)
It also claimed, as Andre observed, that they would never acknowledge spending money on equipment for which there was no audible benefit - even if there was no audible benefit. Broadly, I think that is why Gordon sent it. He feels I am beating my ahead against a brick wall. I acknowledged to him earlier he is right.
And you are welcome to ignore all my posts. They are posted for the benefit of those I know do appreciate them :ner:
much love xxx
bobbasrah
10-09-2013, 16:37
Much appreciated Richard
Ali Tait
10-09-2013, 16:42
Just for fun and with no agenda or comment I thought I'd post a photo of the mains cable Electricity Northwest currently use as the 'last few metres of cable' to the house from the grid (we just had some work done and they left me 3 metres of cable to play with when I confessed to them my sad obsession with cable :) )
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B5YMUBZKHlE/Ui8xG6lkPAI/AAAAAAAACIw/YFO1bp58A5I/w1797-h1198-no/IMG_7410_resize.JPG
It looks to me like 6mm of solid aluminum core for the live, with 18x 1mm solid copper 'armour' on the outside which is used as the neutral/earth.
I was genuinely surprised to see aluminium core but I guess it's cheaper than copper and more bendable?
I did ask the Electricity Northwest engineers if that had a better quality audiophile cable they could use instead of that aluminium crap (I suggested maybe some Furutech), but they just stared at me silently blinking... :mental:
Pretty standard fare for this application, it's called a split concentric cable.
He feels I am beating my ahead against a brick wall. I acknowledged to him earlier he is right.
Richard, I can assure you, that there are others (as they'd say in Yorkshire) on t'other side't fence, who feel exactly the same way!! ;)
Anyway, it's been fun.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 16:50
Richard, I can assure you, that there are others (as they'd say in Yorkshire) on t'other side't fence, who feel exactly the same way!! ;)
Anyway, it's been fun.
Marco.
Yup - no need for anyone to fall out. And what is a forum for if not to talk about stuff. Anyway - I've posted some tits on Al's forum :lol:
If you want to know if you're actually hearing a difference as opposed to imagining one, then blind testing is the only way to be sure, but for me personally, just hearing a difference is sufficient in itself. As often as not, I can't hear any difference at all between components, but when I do hear a difference, my preference is usually clear.
Me too! I only blind test in instances where the sonic differences between whatever it is I'm comparing are very subtle. Fortunately, that's never happened yet with any decent 'audiophile-designed' main cables I've auditioned.
Marco.
Yup - no need for anyone to fall out. And what is a forum for if not to talk about stuff. Anyway - I've posted some tits on Al's forum :lol:
Lol! Well, if any real lessons have been learned, throughout this epic thread, it is this: keep your bloody posts short and to the point! ;) :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 17:12
Me too! I only blind test in instances where the sonic differences between whatever it is I'm comparing are very subtle. Fortunately, that's never happened yet with any decent 'audiophile-designed' main cables I've auditioned.
Marco.
Yes but. (I may divert this thread to a talk about hum before long, but pro tem)
Yes but, if I can hear a difference, and everyone else can hear it, a blind test is unnecessary. If I think I can hear a difference, and others (maybe not with a first in audiophile auditioning- but decent A level results) can't hear it - then i blind test to prove to them (and me) that I really can hear a difference.
Interestingly - Mrs S - about as untrained as they come, completely incapable of using the right words - can hear it if I can, and can't if I can't. Every time so far. It's just that her vocabulary is limited to "better" or "no different". But I've deliberately tried to trap her a couple of times, and she's passed the test. I'm training her to say "I'm getting vanilla, and just a threat of oyster shell, and wood pigeon, and pebbles in the rain" but so far its just "better" or "no different" :lol:
I'm getting essence of flange with a smidgen of smoked kippers :D
Marco.
Yes but. (I may divert this thread to a talk about hum before long, but pro tem)
Yes but, if I can hear a difference, and everyone else can hear it, a blind test is unnecessary. If I think I can hear a difference, and others (maybe not with a first in audiophile auditioning- but decent A level results) can't hear it - then i blind test to prove to them (and me) that I really can hear a difference.
Interestingly - Mrs S - about as untrained as they come, completely incapable of using the right words - can hear it if I can, and can't if I can't. Every time so far. It's just that her vocabulary is limited to "better" or "no different". But I've deliberately tried to trap her a couple of times, and she's passed the test. I'm training her to say "I'm getting vanilla, and just a threat of oyster shell, and wood pigeon, and pebbles in the rain" but so far its just "better" or "no different" :lol:
When I have my eyes tested, the optician switches lenses, and says: 'Is that better, or worse?' Once I was agonising for several minutes over this question, when he eventually said: 'It's OK to say there's no difference, you know'.
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 17:19
Lol! Well, if any real lessons have been learned, throughout this epic thread, it is this: keep your bloody posts short and to the point! ;) :)
Marco.
Blurry 'ell, you young people these days have such a short attention span. Instant this, instant that, whatever happened to..............
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 17:20
Blurry 'ell, you young people these days have such a short attention span. Instant this, instant that, whatever happened to..............
I take it that was meant to be "You young people..."
Sawdust in the eyes as well as ears? :D
But that's what he wrote, daftee. Unless he edited it before I got to read it....
I should've added, however, '...and if they're going to be lengthy, make them quickly and easily legible, with proper paragraphs and stuff' ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 18:19
I take it that was meant to be "You young people..."
Sawdust in the eyes as well as ears? :D
Tee hee, the quickness of the eye deceives the hand. You have to get up early.........:ner:
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 18:25
But that's what he wrote, daftee. Unless he edited it before I got to read it....
I should've added, however, '...and if they're going to be lengthy, make them quickly and easily legible, with proper paragraphs and stuff' ;)
Marco.
Yeah - crafty bugger slipped an edit in. I've got your nunber stesdman ! :rolleyes:
Oldpinkman
10-09-2013, 18:38
I've sorted that bloody hum on the av input. Watching England play footie in hum free surround sound. :cool:
Gordon Steadman
10-09-2013, 18:43
I've sorted that bloody hum on the av input. Watching England play footie in hum free surround sound. :cool:
God, how mundane.
I'm reading Freud. I'm afreud I always was an intellectual snob:rolleyes:
bobbasrah
10-09-2013, 18:48
Clement ?
No, actually it's quite cold.
Marco.
bobbasrah
10-09-2013, 19:09
Perhaps in North WalesShire, but not here I may assure you, 31 daytime, nights around 24 ish... Thank god it is Autumn at last...
Wakefield Turntables
10-09-2013, 19:25
there are others (as they'd say in Yorkshire) on t'other side't fence, who feel exactly the same way!! ;)
Marco.
No! Nobody says that.
Do it properly for me then, daftee!!! :lol:
Marco.
And the final score is . . . . . . . . . MAINS CABLE 0, LADY PARTS 1
Do you get bonus points for a cheesy dip? :D
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-09-2013, 05:37
And the final score is . . . . . . . . . MAINS CABLE 0, LADY PARTS 1
I take it you appreciated the tits on als tamed wildlife thread then.
Yes - I think my conclusion is that mains leads are another manifestation of the linn chip phenomena. A cult built around evident engineering which is perceived as an automatic deliverer of audiophile enhancements and spreads by peer pressure. Its ok as bling for those with systems which are topend and there is nothing left to spend the money on , but as someone brainwashed by the original "turntable first" cult I know it risks those at the other end of the wealth scale missing out on spending on genuine "big" improvements like a mm cartridge over a ceramic one because they believe they have to have the "fundamental, heart of the system" benefits from a mains cable which you can only actually faintly discern with proper training. Not malicious - just a bit sad. Guess these things go in cycles. :(
Audioman
11-09-2013, 08:14
I take it you appreciated the tits on als tamed wildlife thread then.
Yes - I think my conclusion is that mains leads are another manifestation of the linn chip phenomena. A cult built around evident engineering which is perceived as an automatic deliverer of audiophile enhancements and spreads by peer pressure. Its ok as bling for those with systems which are topend and there is nothing left to spend the money on , but as someone brainwashed by the original "turntable first" cult I know it risks those at the other end of the wealth scale missing out on spending on genuine "big" improvements like a mm cartridge over a ceramic one because they believe they have to have the "fundamental, heart of the system" benefits from a mains cable which you can only actually faintly discern with proper training. Not malicious - just a bit sad. Guess these things go in cycles. :(
Richard. From a general cable sceptic - I suggest you try some other mains cables on 30 day loan as those MCRU DIY obviously don't work for you or make only a small difference which reading back through your whole diatribe originally appeared to be the case. I did find the cheapest RA cable made a substantial difference to the Pioneer 400X but suspect this may depend on the quality of power supply and regulation? Most of my current set up has captive leads which I'm reluctant to cut and introduce an extra IEC which may or may not cancel the benefits. I think the ideal would be to hard wire better cables but finding one of normal thickness to fit the existing standard entry may be a problem. At present the RA yellow is attached to the IEC inlet of the Denon 2900 and this change surprisingly made a much smaller difference.
I think they are worth a try as long as you stick to the reasonable priced models which I suspect give 90% of what many of the crazy priced variety do in all but the most uber hi-end ultra revealing hi-fi sounding kit which so often fail to musically satisfy anyway. Of course like many interconnects the perceived improvement may be just masking a problem elsewhere. In theory Marco's approach makes most sense but probably is against electrical regs, nullifies your house insurance and sounds rather dangerous to me. It does make sense upgrading the last metre when you think about it and examine the construction of a standard kettle lead compared to twin and earth ring main cable and the stuff that feeds your house. I don't think improvements people hear can easily be proved by measurement though.
Paul.
Richard. From a general cable sceptic - I suggest you try some other mains cables on 30 day loan as those MCRU DIY obviously don't work for you or make only a small difference which reading back through your whole diatribe originally appeared to be the case. I did find the cheapest RA cable made a substantial difference to the Pioneer 400X but suspect this may depend on the quality of power supply and regulation? Most of my current set up has captive leads which I'm reluctant to cut and introduce an extra IEC which may or may not cancel the benefits. I think the ideal would be to hard wire better cables but finding one of normal thickness to fit the existing standard entry may be a problem. At present the RA yellow is attached to the IEC inlet of the Denon 2900 and this change surprisingly made a much smaller difference.
I think they are worth a try as long as you stick to the reasonable priced models which I suspect give 90% of what many of the crazy priced variety do in all but the most uber hi-end ultra revealing hi-fi sounding kit which so often fail to musically satisfy anyway. Of course like many interconnects the perceived improvement may be just masking a problem elsewhere. In theory Marco's approach makes most sense but probably is against electrical regs, nullifies your house insurance and sounds rather dangerous to me. It does make sense upgrading the last metre when you think about it and examine the construction of a standard kettle lead compared to twin and earth ring main cable and the stuff that feeds your house. I don't think improvements people hear can easily be proved by measurement though.
Paul.
agreed! I heard a system at munich using $30,000.00 mains power cords at they call them, there were approx. 30 chairs in the room, 2 people sat listening! it was the middle of the day too.
Oldpinkman
11-09-2013, 08:34
Richard. From a general cable sceptic - I suggest you try some other mains cables on 30 day loan as those MCRU DIY obviously don't work for you or make only a small difference which reading back through your whole diatribe originally appeared to be the case. I did find the cheapest RA cable made a substantial difference to the Pioneer 400X but suspect this may depend on the quality of power supply and regulation? Most of my current set up has captive leads which I'm reluctant to cut and introduce an extra IEC which may or may not cancel the benefits. I think the ideal would be to hard wire better cables but finding one of normal thickness to fit the existing standard entry may be a problem. At present the RA yellow is attached to the IEC inlet of the Denon 2900 and this change surprisingly made a much smaller difference.
I think they are worth a try as long as you stick to the reasonable priced models which I suspect give 90% of what many of the crazy priced variety do in all but the most uber hi-end ultra revealing hi-fi sounding kit which so often fail to musically satisfy anyway. Of course like many interconnects the perceived improvement may be just masking a problem elsewhere. In theory Marco's approach makes most sense but probably is against electrical regs, nullifies your house insurance and sounds rather dangerous to me. It does make sense upgrading the last metre when you think about it and examine the construction of a standard kettle lead compared to twin and earth ring main cable and the stuff that feeds your house. I don't think improvements people hear can easily be proved by measurement though.
Paul.
The IEC weakness - potentially - which does make some sense to me may be something for future research when I've tidied up some more urgent issues. (At least I've nailed that hum problem - well enough for now - still academically interested in the reason for the residual trace which is inaudible at normal listening levels, but not this week). And clearly hard wiring is an "ultimate solution" option regarding IEC weaknesses. If there is a need for any solution at all.
And, it may be your choice, or compelling for others, but upgrading the last meter of cable makes no sense to me at all. Assuming the original to be upgraded is fit for purpose - ie of a correct diameter for the current it has to carry.
Otherwise I am comfortable with the conclusions I have drawn, the reasons for which have been comprehensively explained (some would say excessively explained) over the various posts. The grounds for each part of my conclusion have been stated on this thread. Like Marco, I am a reasonable person, and prepared to change my position when I encounter rational grounds for doing so (like directly experiencing something, or Pauls interconnect explanation), but until then I am happy with what I have concluded.
Anyway - I've got friends now :cool:
It does make sense upgrading the last metre when you think about it and examine the construction of a standard kettle lead compared to twin and earth ring main cable and the stuff that feeds your house.
Exactly. Leaving everything to do with 'exotic audiophile cables' aside, why not, for the last metre of cable that powers your system, use at least something that vaguely resembles the stuff preceding it inside the wall, which feeds your sockets??
Why downgrade to something 'weedier', and notably inferior (especially in terms of conductor size), such as the flimsy multi-strand wire inside a kettle lead? It makes no sense whatsoever! All you're doing is introducing a 'bottle neck' :doh:
Before I got into using 'exotic' mains cables for my system, I made some DIY ones from 6mm twin & earth solid-core cable, covered in a flexible sheathing and terminated in good quality plugs (but nothing fancy), from Farnell.
I can tell you that they sonically outperformed the flimsy 'kettle leads' I had. The only downside was that they were a bit stiff, but they could easily be bent into shape and 'formed' into a specific position, so the stiffness was a non-issue.
What I learned there was partly what started me off on my mains cable experiments - and that was 15 years ago... The reality, guys, is that 'kettle leads' are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system, and so it deserves something much better! :exactly:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-09-2013, 09:11
The reality, guys, is that kettle leads are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system, and so your system deserves something much better! :exactly:
Marco.
I have found that not to be true. Electrical theory suggests it would not be true. The qualified engineers on this site appear to agree it is not true. You are entitled to state what you believe to be true - but sadly those with limited budgets will wrongly conclude from that statement that they will get a benefit which is "much better" - when I find they will get no benefit at all. And when I and others make that point, you then claim the benefit you attribute is gossamer thin, and only audible after prolonged listening by trained listeners. I think they would be better spending their money on a better mat, cartridge, dac or amplifier stage.
We agree on one point though. Caveat emptor -and trust your ears, not the hyperbole of others ;)
Like Marco, I am a reasonable person, and prepared to change my position when I encounter rational grounds for doing so (like directly experiencing something, or Pauls interconnect explanation), but until then I am happy with what I have concluded.
I appreciate that, Richard, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, do me a favour, eh? When expressing your opinion on the matter please don't use language that denigrates the equally valid opinions and choices of others, such as this:
"Yes - I think my conclusion is that mains leads are another manifestation of the linn chip phenomena. A cult built around evident engineering which is perceived as an automatic deliverer of audiophile enhancements and spreads by peer pressure. Its ok as bling for those with systems which are topend and there is nothing left to spend the money on..."
It really grates on those of us who have chosen to use 'exotic' mains cables for reasons that bare no resemblance whatsoever to what you've described above. In future, just say something along the lines of: 'I don't think that ‘exotic’ mains cables work and are a waste of money', or some such, without the need to fix (what are in many cases) completely incorrect labels on other people's valid choices. We like to treat each other with respect on AoS, and at the moment, you're spoiling the vibe by making some of these unnecessary comments.
Deal? :cool:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
11-09-2013, 09:20
Richard. In theory Marco's approach makes most sense but probably is against electrical regs, nullifies your house insurance and sounds rather dangerous to me. .
Paul.
I did wonder about that but a quick google for electrical regs produced nothing. I know old "sawdust ears" in France claims they do away with fuses because of individual circuit breakers per circuit (not so different to my mains distribution board here), and for sure all the frog appliances I buy have moulded fuse-free plugs, but a 13 amp circuit protector is no real help for something only designed to draw 500ma. Hopefully nothing will catch fire, and the point will be academic. I doubt he could legally let the place in that condition though.
Audioman
11-09-2013, 09:33
I have found that not to be true. Electrical theory suggests it would not be true. The qualified engineers on this site appear to agree it is not true. You are entitled to state what you believe to be true - but sadly those with limited budgets will wrongly conclude from that statement that they will get a benefit which is "much better" - when I find they will get no benefit at all. And when I and others make that point, you then claim the benefit you attribute is gossamer thin, and only audible after prolonged listening by trained listeners. I think they would be better spending their money on a better mat, cartridge, dac or amplifier stage.
We agree on one point though. Caveat emptor -and trust your ears, not the hyperbole of others ;)
Not suggesting that a mains cable makes a bigger difference than any of the above. Improvement is more subtle and I suspect dependent on the current drawn by the device. Hence a bigger bottleneck with a powerful valve amp for instance. I did state I don't see that theory can explain differences listeners report. Obviously don't spend more on cables in total than the weakest component.
Oldpinkman
11-09-2013, 09:35
I appreciate that, Richard, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, do me a favour, eh? When expressing your opinion on the matter please don't use language that denigrates the equally valid opinions and choices of others, such as this:
It really grates on those of us who have chosen to use 'exotic' mains cables for reasons that bare no resemblance whatsoever to what you've described above. In future, just say something along the lines of: 'I don't think that ‘exotic’ mains cables work and are a waste of money', or some such, without the need to fix (what are in many cases) completely incorrect labels on other people's valid choices. We like to treat each other with respect and be nice to each other on AoS, and at the moment, you're spoiling the vibe with some of the unnecessary comments you're making.
Deal? :cool:
Marco.
Marco, I take the point on language and have been attempting to avoid denigrating anyone. However, the comment was prefaced by "in my opinion" and I'm not quite sure which particular word or phrase is causing the offence. Linn chip is a term I first saw DSJR use, and we have explained, and I succumbed to. It is a handy short hand for that whole peer pressure, "its the norm" which applies in this situation in the HiFi world. Again - cult describes a collective belief in something which is exactly what the mains cable phenomena is. You and others believe in it - because of your experiences. I and others cannot share those experiences, and you and fellow believers feel it un-necessary or even demeaning to need to demonstrate them. Maybe the word has inappropriate religious overtones, so I am happy to use any more appropriate suggestion, but I am looking for a word that covers that collective belief in the absence of objective verifiable evidence.
I find statements like "The reality, guys, is that kettle leads are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system" which are authoratative, not prefaced by "in my opinion" and not supported by any objective evidence to be equally outside the spirit of what I had believed AOS was about. I find them especially disturbing from someone whose influence on the inexperienced is considerable on this forum.
But I apologise unreservedly for any offence given, and will be happy to endeavour to use language suggestions which are appropriate, AND cover the point I am making. I was trying for efficiency of language - you had accused me of being too verbose :(
I find statements like "The reality, guys, is that kettle leads are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system" which are authoratative, not prefaced by "in my opinion" and not supported by any objective evidence to be equally outside the spirit of what I had believed AOS was about. I find them especially disturbing from someone whose influence on the inexperienced is considerable on this forum.
Indeed, but that was done deliberately to give you a taste of your own medicine (in terms of what I accused you of earlier) and to see how you would react - and you reacted just as I thought you would!!! :eyebrows: ;)
As an example of the behaviour I'm talking about, how would you like it if, when I'm extolling the virtues of 'exotic' mains cables, I ended my comments with something like "...which strongly suggests that those who can't hear these benefits are deaf and/or blinkered, due to a potent mixture of intransigence and a distinct lack of hearing acuity"?
Would that not make you think: 'hey, hold on a minute, that's a bit cheeky and totally untrue!' Well, that's exactly how others and I feel about you using words, as an adjunct to your opinion, which strongly infer that we (users of 'fancy' mains cables) are victims of delusion.
In that respect, I'm referring to you going on about 'Linn chips' and 'cults', brainwashing, etc, neither of which I'm sure the many members here (including myself) who use 'audiophile-designed' mains leads possess, belong to or suffer from. You may not realise that you're doing this Richard, but it's how you're coming across, so please stop it.
But I apologise unreservedly for any offence given, and will be happy to endeavour to use language suggestions which are appropriate, AND cover the point I am making
Thank you! Now let's not have any further debate on the matter. However, please ensure that you take on board what I've said. Ta! :)
Marco.
Beobloke
11-09-2013, 09:56
Interesting that people keep banging on about "kettle leads" in this thread as it is unlikely that any piece of hi-fi equipment has ever been supplied with a kettle lead.
The leads supplied with general electronic and hi-fi equipment use IEC 60320 type C13 socket on the end of the lead and C14 plugs on the equipment, whereas a kettle lead uses a type C15 socket on the lead and a C16 plug on the kettle.
The C15/16 type are temperature rated to 120 degC whereas the C13/14 types are only rated at 70degC, hence why the former are used on kettles. Furthermore, the C15/16 types have a notch in their locating flange which means that, whilst a C15 lead will fit into a C14 connector, a C13 lead will not fit into a C16 connector thus making sure you can't use a 70 degC rated lead on a kettle. Therefore, what people are referring to as a "kettle lead" in hi-fi terms won't actually fit into a kettle!
Also, it's worth considering that a bog standard mains lead generally has 1mm square cores. These are rated at 10A at 250V and thus will allow 2500W of power down them without getting upset. Consequently, I struggle to see how they can be considered as being a "bottleneck" to a piece of hi-fi equipment that is rated at much less than that - even the beefy studio power amp I bought last week to have a play with is only rated at 700W!
As you were...;)
Indeed, Adam, but there's a lot more to the subject, IMO, than simply current draw. It's the issue of the noise/interference suppression offered, in my experience, with the best 'audiophile-designed' mains leads, which I consider to be more significant.
Thing is, neither 'side' is ever going to agree on this, and we are destined to argue until infinity, so TBH, I'm getting close to the point now of carrying out Barry's earlier request and locking the thread, in order to prevent further circular argument.
Marco.
P.S Thanks for the info on kettle leads. Most interesting, and noted! :)
Oldpinkman
11-09-2013, 10:07
Interesting that people keep banging on about "kettle leads" in this thread as it is unlikely that any piece of hi-fi equipment has ever been supplied with a kettle lead.
Good point! The bloody Integral needs a Kettle lead and a 13 amp fuse as I found when I thought I had blown up Arthur's precious toy (maybe only NEEDS more than 5 amp but it says 13 amp on the tin)
Also, it's worth considering that a bog standard mains lead generally has 1mm square cores. These are rated at 10A at 250V and thus will allow 2500W of power down them without getting upset. Consequently, I struggle to see how they can be considered as being a "bottleneck" to a piece of hi-fi equipment that is rated at much less than that - even the beefy studio power amp I bought last week to have a play with is only rated at 700W!
As you were...;)
Yes but you are using science and not imagination (faith, hope? help what word am I allowed to use for an idea unsupported by evidence but nonetheless stated as a positive hypothesis)- that's why you can't see. (Mark 8:18 :))
Daftee! ;)
Ok, chaps, it's all getting rather boring now, with the same points being regurgitated again and again, as is destined to eventually happen on these types of threads. As ever, though, thanks to all for their insight and contributions :cool:
Marco.
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