View Full Version : Mod your Beresford 7520
rhmjmango
28-04-2009, 22:16
Help! Is anyone having this issue? I took out my 7562s and put in the 4032s (new Tirna version). Variable out to my amp sounds fine. But the headphone amp sounds noisy/crappy/distorted thru the first 1/6 rotation (lower volume). I have the 50ohm Sennheiser 595s.
The HPA sounds fine if I... 1) remove the variable out 4032 and leave empty, 2) replace the variable out 4032 w/ the 4562, or3) use a 4562 back on the HPA with a 4032 on the variable out. Both 4032s sound the same (i.e. either works fine alone in the HPA, but as soon as two of them are onboard, the HPA sounds like crap).
Anyone else??? This is a bummer.
I experienced the same problem. The 4032 give distortion in mainly the left channel of my headphone when placed in the headphone socket.:scratch:
If the 4562 drives your headphones ok it maybe worth just having the 4032 in the fixed position only for now .
drumlins4ever
28-04-2009, 23:18
Phew ,
This thread has got so long its getting hard to find some specific info,
Is the same opamp shared for both headphone and fixed out duties?
And which one is it ?
True that! I searched back to where Stan said that the one over the volume control is the headphone, and the one over the headphone jack is the "output"... but he didn't say if both fixed and variable. But I noticed that if there's no opamp in the "output" socket, my variable output is much lower (yes, it makes music without anything at all... assuming that the DAC's analogue out has enough voltage to drive my amp).
You need a sticky;) keep all the tweaks and bits in
drumlins4ever
29-04-2009, 01:45
You need a sticky;) keep all the tweaks and bits in
good idea Leo, if only i'd thought of it ages ago
HighFidelityGuy
29-04-2009, 11:11
Hmm, I assumed that the same op-amp was used for the fixed and line output and that the other op-amp was only for the headphone output. Perhaps that isn't the case. I guess it would make some sense that the headphone op-amp was also used for the variable output as both of these use the volume pot.
Perhaps this means that the variable output also has a different impedance or something than the fixed output, which would maybe explain why they both have different characteristics.
I guess we need some clarification on this from Stan.
Hmm, I assumed that the same op-amp was used for the fixed and line output and that the other op-amp was only for the headphone output. Perhaps that isn't the case. I guess it would make some sense that the headphone op-amp was also used for the variable output as both of these use the volume pot.
Perhaps this means that the variable output also has a different impedance or something than the fixed output, which would maybe explain why they both have different characteristics.
I guess we need some clarification on this from Stan.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2160&page=6
Posts 55 and 56.
"ones for the fixed and the others for the 'phones?" Answer::) (from those posts)
Doesn't really answer the question. When I took the op amp out of the 'fixed' socket, the volume (of my variable output to my power amp) went way down. I think the phones and variable out are different chips. Would love to know.
When I took the op amp out of the 'fixed' socket, the volume went way down.
What volume?
What volume?
repaired my post above... the volume of the variable output to my directly connected power amp was much lower with no opamp in the socket, so I "think" it's not the same as the headphone opamp. But I really don't know crap about this!
Neither am I to be honest(!). But I'm sure I remember seeing that the two chips should be "variable (ie variable line out AND headphone)" and "fixed (fixed line out)".
Over to Stan!
Who has two 4032s installed, and can you listen to your headphones at lower volume without obvious noise/distortion??
HighFidelityGuy
29-04-2009, 12:36
I have two 4032's installed and everything sounds fine through the headphones. No crackles or distortions. I can't turn the volume up very high but I have got quite low impedance phones (32 ohm I think), so that's what you'd expect, I think.
It's only when I connect my power amps directly to the variable output that odd things happen.
I have two 4032's installed and everything sounds fine through the headphones. No crackles or distortions. I can't turn the volume up very high but I have got quite low impedance phones (32 ohm I think), so that's what you'd expect, I think.
It's only when I connect my power amps directly to the variable output that odd things happen.
which is how I use mine. Well, we'll see who else replies. Maybe it's only when using the variable out (the whole reason I went this route). Well, I'm less a headphone listener, so the 4562 on that socket (if indeed it's separate from the variable) would be fine... but it would show, to me at least, that it'd be nice if Tirna had tried their "upgrade to Beresford 7520" on a actual Beresford 7520.
ReachtheSky
29-04-2009, 13:24
When I emailed Stan directly about the two opamps he indicated that the variable out (preamp) and line out use the same opamp.
technobear
29-04-2009, 13:32
It might aid you folks understanding to remember that these are DUAL op-amps :)
StanleyB
29-04-2009, 13:32
. but it would show, to me at least, that it'd be nice if Tirna had tried their "upgrade to Beresford 7520" on a actual Beresford 7520.
and also stop some people blowing up their TC-7520. On at least two cases the pins on the modded PCB from them has shorted against the top case of the DAC. At least one perosn has also put the modded PCB in the wrong way round.
Those DAC were then history.
I am NOT recommending the Tirna modded PCB as a result of those blown up DACs. Neither am I offering any technical advise or encouragement to those who are prepared to risk blowing their DAC up that way.
Who has two 4032s installed, and can you listen to your headphones at lower volume without obvious noise/distortion??
I recall a posting somewhere from Stan where he said he changed a few resistors around the opamp board. Maybe this is related to the distortion some are getting.
re some of the other comments/requests:
We can't expect Stan to spend time on advising, he's in business to sell the DACs he developed. Given the low cost of the 4032 chip and board we can't really expect Tirna to source a 7520 to test the upgrade either. They are simply responding to a specific market demand which makes them a little money but I very much doubt it would justify say 10 hours work on testing and guarantees for the upgrade.
re some of the other comments/requests:
We can't expect Stan to spend time on advising, he's in business to sell the DACs he developed. Given the low cost of the 4032 chip and board we can't really expect Tirna to source a 7520 to test the upgrade either. They are simply responding to a specific market demand which makes them a little money but I very much doubt it would justify say 10 hours work on testing and guarantees for the upgrade.
Well put.
HighFidelityGuy
29-04-2009, 13:50
When I emailed Stan directly about the two opamps he indicated that the variable out (preamp) and line out use the same opamp.
Ok, so both line outputs use the op-amp on the left. Thanks. :)
It might aid you folks understanding to remember that these are DUAL op-amps :)
As far as I understand it; one channel of the op-amp is for the left channel, the other for the right, giving you stereo. :)
I'm going to do some testing tonight with a scope on the line outputs with different combinations of op-amps to try and narrow down the cause of my problems.
StanleyB
29-04-2009, 14:23
Given the low cost of the 4032 chip and board we can't really expect Tirna to source a 7520 to test the upgrade either. They are simply responding to a specific market demand which makes them a little money but I very much doubt it would justify say 10 hours work on testing and guarantees for the upgrade.
Would you fit a replacement part in your car if the part manufacturer has not tested it on the car in question?
Would you fit a replacement part in your car if the part manufacturer has not tested it on the car in question?
Depends on the part Stan. Something seriously mechanically internal or electronics that interact with the CAN-bus I would want testing. Whereas a wheel or tyre of suitable spec should be interchangeable without testing.
Opamps are closer to the wheel & tyre analogy although there are risks that they aren't 100% suitable for the parameters you set for the 5532. It's a small risk though that's unlikely to result in damage, excepting errors in doing the opamp install.
StanleyB
29-04-2009, 16:55
It's a small risk though that's unlikely to result in damage, excepting errors in doing the opamp install.
You should see my email inbox:doh:. Homer lives...
Would you fit a replacement part in your car if the part manufacturer has not tested it on the car in question?
Okay, hope not to offend, but:
1. agree with Stan on this, but because the exact title of the Tirna ebay item was "THS4032CD Dual Op Amp Beresford DAC Upgrade 8 PIN DIL "
I strongly feel that if you're selling an "Upgrade" to anything, you should have tested it in the box. I'm not very happy that I was sent two that didn't fit the case, and now two that can only be used one at a time
2. No offense Stanley, but I think you're being a little coy about this. You're the one who told us this was your Favorite Opamp, and gosh, aren't we lucky Opamps are so easy to swap in your box. How about a little help on how to implement the 4032. Why would it do what it's doing in my box?
Thanks!
Why would it do what it's doing in my box?
Looking back through previous posts should make it clear that the THS4032 is a very capable op-amp WHEN IT IS IMPLEMENTED CORRECTLY. It is a very high speed device which requires some care where it is fitted. The stock NE5532 on the other hand is much less fussy, being a very slow (relatively) chip. Heaving out one device and sticking in another is therefore prone to bringing up problems, as things like length of pcb track can cause instability.
The 7520 HA board has been designed around the 5532 NOT the 4032, so a certain risk must be involved in this kind of upgrade.
The THS4032 is a very fine sounding chip, but not wanting to start swapping out other components to make it stable, I personally will stick with an op-amp I know sounds (almost) as good - ie. the LM4562.
Ken
drumlins4ever
29-04-2009, 18:21
My own favorite is the opa2132pa.
Got the revised mod from Tirna and was disappointed. Still too much height and would not fit in my dac properly.
StanleyB
29-04-2009, 18:49
2. No offense Stanley, but I think you're being a little coy about this. You're the one who told us this was your Favorite Opamp, and gosh, aren't we lucky Opamps are so easy to swap in your box. How about a little help on how to implement the 4032. Why would it do what it's doing in my box?
I have nothing against the THS4032. My concern is with the PCB adapter, which is blowing up people's DAC at worst, or only the fuse if they are lucky!
The only sure fire way to fit the mod is to desolder the DIL adapter socket I fitted for the NE5532, and then solder in the SOIC to DIL adapter PCB with the THS4032 on it. Anyone in the UK who can't do that part of the job but would like it done should email me for the details of a fellow engineer who has offered to do the mod for them. The top PCB is removable, so that's all he'll need.
Well, maybe I misunderstood.. I assumed that if you thought the 4032 was best, it was a drop in for the socket you provided (to making opamp 'rolling' easier). I'd like to see if anyone is having issues with 2 Tirnas in the board. I'm not against the 4562 in for the HPA, and not even sure if I like the 4032 better in the variable out. But I'm not quite up for soldering if not certain the 4032s better all around..
I'm curious...what's the effect of the pin 4/8 decoupling cap still on your board in combo with the one Tirna puts on (because the board cap would be too far away due to pin/adaptor/adaptor length)?
I have nothing against the THS4032. My concern is with the PCB adapter, which is blowing up people's DAC at worst, or only the fuse if they are lucky!
The only sure fire way to fit the mod is to desolder the DIL adapter socket I fitted for the NE5532, and then solder in the SOIC to DIL adapter PCB with the THS4032 on it. Anyone in the UK who can't do that part of the job but would like it done should email me for the details of a fellow engineer who has offered to do the mod for them. The top PCB is removable, so that's all he'll need.
Now I understand your concern. I take back my comment about low risk. I have 4032 from Tirna ready to install. Time to get my IC desoldering tool out to desolder the IC socket.
Did a lot of people just buy one??
Radiotron
30-04-2009, 00:56
Did a lot of people just buy one??
I did. I really like the way my AKG K701 sound with the LM4562NA. But the THS4032CD on the output is something to be heard. This DAC has never sounded that good since I purchased it. All in all, this combination works great with my rig. YMMV. :)
Covenant
30-04-2009, 07:01
It would be great if Stan or anyone else with more knowledge could advise if there is likely to be any long term damage caused by the Tirna 4032 mod assuming that there is no obvious initial problem.
In my case I just have the 4032 on the left hand socket and a 4562 in the headphone socket. The quality is perfect and I would be reluctant to change unless problems are going to develop.
Just by way of a change from op-amp related issues - What power supply units are you guys using to power your TC-7520?
I ask because I have an idea to use a single 12volt/5volt dual SMPS to power both my DAC and Squeezebox Classic. At the moment I am using a homebrewed 12volt linear for the 7520 and the stock 5volt switcher for the SB3.
My reasons are: 1. Convenience - Just one mains socket. 2. Lower power, more efficient. 3. Better performance than the stock wall-warts.
What have I got to lose? Will the sound quality suffer?
Any comments ...
Ken
I'm using the Maplin recommended PSU with an after Market kettle lead. Noticably better than the supplied wall wart
Same here. Maplin PSU at 12v.
Same here. Maplin PSU at 12v.
You tried at 13.5V?
Any thoughts?
You tried at 13.5V?
Any thoughts?
I did with the 7510. Found it too lively and forward. To be honest I haven't tried the 7520 at 13.5v. Have you?
Are these Maplin PSU's linears? - Do they do a 5volt unit at about 2 amps?
Are these Maplin PSU's linears? - Do they do a 5volt unit at about 2 amps?
This one:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=48517
OK, thanks for that. Is there a worthwhile improvement over the standard wall-wart? I know there is with my 12V linear, so I wouldn't like to lose that improvement.
I haven't tried the 7520 wall wart. I just plugged the Maplin in straight away as it did make a small improvement to the 7510 so I assumed it would with the 7520.
I did with the 7510. Found it too lively and forward. To be honest I haven't tried the 7520 at 13.5v. Have you?
I found the same thing with my 7510.
It was like pressing the "Loudness" button in my system - too much of everything.
No haven't even thought of trying 13.5v in mine.
Will do tonight and post back.
You should too when you get a chance? Might be useful info?
Gaz.
Have you guys had a meter on the PSU output? Is it pretty close to the stated voltage? I am running my linear PSU at 12.5V (measured) as this was similar to the wall-wart's output.
Ken
Won't running the DAC at 13.5V lead to risk of burning out or damaging something if used long-term?
(I only ask 'cos I'm quite liking the description of the "problems" being listed with the sound at 13.5, sounds temptingly intriguing - sometimes I like the music shouting in my face!)
Won't running the DAC at 13.5V lead to risk of burning out or damaging something if used long-term?
(I only ask 'cos I'm quite liking the description of the "problems" being listed with the sound at 13.5, sounds temptingly intriguing - sometimes I like the music shouting in my face!)
The spec is 12V to 15V, there are internal regulators. Also the PSU will likely sag a little under load. So if you measure 14V off-load, it's likely to be 13.5V on-load.
Anyone tried one of these?
http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/opa2107ap/op-amp-dual-difet-precision-8dip/dp/1648692
I found the same thing with my 7510.
It was like pressing the "Loudness" button in my system - too much of everything.
No haven't even thought of trying 13.5v in mine.
Will do tonight and post back.
You should too when you get a chance? Might be useful info?
Gaz.
I would but it's away getting Wolfson'ed :cool:
apmusson
01-05-2009, 16:45
I would but it's away getting Wolfson'ed :cool:
Whos it away with?
I would but it's away getting Wolfson'ed :cool:
Just suppose you don't like it - Do you then get it Burr-Browned :scratch:
Just suppose you don't like it - Do you then get it Burr-Browned :scratch:
If it's good enough for Stan............
If it's good enough for Stan............
Did he actually say he preferred the Wolfson chip, I can't remember ?
Anyone tried one of these?
http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/opa2107ap/op-amp-dual-difet-precision-8dip/dp/1648692
OPA2107 are supposed to sound a lot like the OPA627 (singles)
I've a range of op-amps here which I'll try and compare when I get one of these dacs, see which ones ring, which ones behave etc.
Somebody has to start a sticky, nobody has bitten yet :doh: so I'll do one when the times right
Quoted wrong post so edited
OPA2107 are supposed to sound a lot like the OPA627 (singles)
I've a range of op-amps here which I'll try and compare when I get one of these dacs, see which ones ring, which ones behave etc.
Somebody has to start a sticky, nobody has bitten yet :doh: so I'll do one when the times right
Thanks Leo.
Did he actually say he preferred the Wolfson chip, I can't remember ?
I believe it's his current "weapon of choice"
I believe it's his current "weapon of choice"
I look forward to your impressions when you get the box back. Is it just a chip swap-out, or are other components involed?
Regarding the Maplin PSU 12v/13.5V issue....
On the 7510 I found 13.5V to be a bit too forward and artificially heightened.
So I ran it at 12V.
The 7520 with Tirna 4032 OP Amps..??
:eek:
Somethings just clicked into place.
The "in your face-ness" of 13.5V on the 7510 has been replaced with far more focussed soundstage - and it was scary good before.
Can sum it up best by saying the music sounds more "real" - more dynamic, more PraT, better seperation.
I listened for a couple of days then went back to 12V.
No contest, its back to 13.5.
Cant recommend it enough.
Trailer?
The Wolfson Dac change, is it for that one thats in the Linn DS?
mwahahaha
01-05-2009, 23:33
Cheers for that Gaz, now how about the link to Maplin's web-site and accompanying rise in site traffic and sales it'll produce:eyebrows:
Gazjam.. are your running two (2) 4032s without any issues on the headphone output?
Regarding the Maplin PSU 12v/13.5V issue....
On the 7510 I found 13.5V to be a bit too forward and artificially heightened.
So I ran it at 12V.
The 7520 with Tirna 4032 OP Amps..??
:eek:
Somethings just clicked into place.
The "in your face-ness" of 13.5V on the 7510 has been replaced with far more focussed soundstage - and it was scary good before.
Can sum it up best by saying the music sounds more "real" - more dynamic, more PraT, better seperation.
I listened for a couple of days then went back to 12V.
No contest, its back to 13.5.
Cant recommend it enough.
Trailer?
The Wolfson Dac change, is it for that one thats in the Linn DS?
I'll be certainly giving the 13.5v a go then. The one I'm getting put in is the WM8716. I had a quick google and couldn't find out if that's the one in the Linn or not. Anyone else know?
Gaz, Is it possible for you to measure the PSU output voltage under load? - My linear supply is adjustable within a couple of volts or so but it has to come out of the case to do it.
Cheers - Ken
I'll be certainly giving the 13.5v a go then. The one I'm getting put in is the WM8716. I had a quick google and couldn't find out if that's the one in the Linn or not. Anyone else know?
Blimey, that Wolfson chip is cheaper than the PCM1716 - It's even cheaper than an 8 pin op-amp! I think I'll order a couple just in case... ;)
I'll be certainly giving the 13.5v a go then. The one I'm getting put in is the WM8716. I had a quick google and couldn't find out if that's the one in the Linn or not. Anyone else know?
There you go http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/DS_or_CD#Up-sampling_and_Quality_of_the_DAC_chip
jon
Interesting. I tried the 7520/4032 combination at 13.5v with the Maplin power supply yesterday and had to switch back to 12V fairly rapidly. I did notice it had a more forward, dynamic sound, which is a good thing, but I found the vocals/midrange to be sort of "tainted", a bit metallically nasally twangy artificial kind of sound (sorry, not too good at this describing sounds lark!) which I hated.
On the positive side, I find the Maplin at 12V is a step up from the supplied power supply so it wasn't a waste of money.
Gazjam.. are your running two (2) 4032s without any issues on the headphone output?
Im running one 4032 for line output and a 4562 for headphones.
Don't own headphones so dunno!
Gaz, Is it possible for you to measure the PSU output voltage under load? - My linear supply is adjustable within a couple of volts or so but it has to come out of the case to do it.
Cheers - Ken
Hey ken,
I don't own a scope or anything sorry, wouldn't know how to use it anyway!
Interesting. I tried the 7520/4032 combination at 13.5v with the Maplin power supply yesterday and had to switch back to 12V fairly rapidly. I did notice it had a more forward, dynamic sound, which is a good thing, but I found the vocals/midrange to be sort of "tainted", a bit metallically nasally twangy artificial kind of sound (sorry, not too good at this describing sounds lark!) which I hated.
On the positive side, I find the Maplin at 12V is a step up from the supplied power supply so it wasn't a waste of money.
Cool. Just goes to show, maybe it's system / opinion dependant?
The sound you described there was how I found my 7510 to be at 13.5V.
Something just "clicked" in my system, the vocals now just seem more projected and more "real" to me.
Could be a system dependant thing as I said.
It is better than the supplied psi at 12 or 13.5v so that's good.
Hey ken,
I don't own a scope or anything sorry, wouldn't know how to use it anyway!
OK Gaz, no problem - I may crank it up to 13V but I dont want to make the internal voltage regulators work too hard. Sound is pretty good as it is though.
Stan himself recommended running the maplin psu at 13.5v for the 7510 prior to mk6/3 (before the virtualDC circuit came in to play) so I think the Dacs can take 13.5v without a problem.
Can any techies out there confim this just to be sure?
Try it ken. Been running 13.5 for a couple of days now and the Dacs not got any hotter, so assuming it's ok?
Try it ken. Been running 13.5 for a couple of days now and the Dacs not got any hotter, so assuming it's ok?
Will do - Thanks Gaz - Probably get tomorrow before I can report back.
I asked about the actual voltage as those SMPS's are rarely accurate but if anything they are likely to be on the high side, so I guess I'll be safe enough.
Ken
Right, strange goings on at trailer towers.
Came home just now to find that the Maplin PSU isn't psu'ing anymore. Fuse is OK. No volts output/led.
Any suggestions? (I've got the box but not the receipt, its about 4 or 5 months old)
:(
There maybe some internal fuse or circuit protection in the the actual unit if your getting no led or output
Things like the fets can go in SMPS's , in most things I'd say take a few internal pics but tbh SMPS's can be lethal so don't be tempted to go poking around in one of these! theres a lot more in these things than a linear.
Is it usually sat on carpet or in a closed space? I presume you tried it without plugged into the dac too to see if it lights up?
Leo,
It doesn't work plugged in or not. The DAC works OK with the standard wall wart.
There's a couple of strange screws on the top of the unit which seem to be the only means of access. If it was just a case of changing an internal fuse then I'd give it a go!
The PSU was sat on the carpet on it's edge. I've never found it to be running that warm as it had plenty of space around it.
Well circuit protectors or fuses normally go for a reason, if one of the internal fets is blown the protection will kick in to prevent it going bang
If it was running ok earlier and you've not touched/moved it and it suddenly goes off its likely one or more internal components could have failed
Do you know any local friends with the same supply who may have kept their receipt;)
Sorry to not be much help but I tend to be very cautious with SMPS's, nasty bloody things tbh when they go wrong
Leo,
No worries, like you said with something like that then it's better safe than sorry.
I got the PSU when it was on offer before the StanDAC rush. I did ring Maplins and explained the situation. They said if I paid by card (which I did) and they could trace the date (which I probably can) they could find it on their system so I might be OK. Would a fail like this be covered under the guarantee? I've only ever ran it on the DAC.
Right, strange goings on at trailer towers.
Came home just now to find that the Maplin PSU isn't psu'ing anymore. Fuse is OK. No volts output/led.
Any suggestions? (I've got the box but not the receipt, its about 4 or 5 months old)
:(
It's a bit spooky - Just as we are talking about PSU's ...
Are you in the habit of tuning the unit off when not in use - In my experience switchers don't like being power cycled too often - Best to just leave them powered up and just turn off the equipment they are powering.
Good luck with Maplins...
Ken
Cheers.
I leave my kit on all the time as it happens. It makes everything sound better doesn't it? :lol:
Leo,
Would a fail like this be covered under the guarantee? I've only ever ran it on the DAC.
Yes, a dac is never going to damage a 5A rated SMPS so they have to swap or at least repair it FOC no probs if under warranty :)
Right, strange goings on at trailer towers.
:):)
Came home just now to find that the Maplin PSU isn't psu'ing anymore. Fuse is OK. No volts output/led.
Any suggestions? (I've got the box but not the receipt, its about 4 or 5 months old)
:(
Captain obvious strikes again, but here goes.....
Is the problem with the kettle lead rather than the psu?
Humour me, pull it out put it back in. Try another lead?
I was using a non stock lead on it. Went back to the maplin and checked that. Same same. Like I said, all suggestions are gratefully received.
tizer2000uk
03-05-2009, 02:11
Cheers.
I leave my kit on all the time as it happens. It makes everything sound better doesn't it? :lol:
That and a tin foil hat... Drawing a green line around the edge of cd's works pretty well too :lol:
Fess up - who's ever stuck a CD in the freezer?
Hi All,
Can I apologise in advance if this question has already been answered - if so, can someone point me in the right direction, there have already been 585 previous posts on this thread.
I am committed to buying one of Stan the Man's 7520s shortly and, although my current kit may not be capable of giving me the benefits, I would be interested in upgrading it so as to introduce an element of future-proofing - who knows what kit I may ultimately get. It seems to me that the costs of the various upgrades are a relatively small price to pay for the improved performance obtained.
My main source is a MM PC (Vaio VGX-XL201) which is loaded with FLACs and some .mp3s, but I also have a Marantz CD-63 mk II KI, Sky HD box and Sony TT, all of which feed into a Marantz PM 6010OSE KI amp and then on to MS Mezzo 2 speakers. My plan is to insert the 7520 just upstream of the amp.
My questions are: -
1) which op-amp upgrade offers me the best sound quality, given what I intend to try and do with it? If this is not such a simple question to answer, what are the advanatges and disadvantages of each of the main two op-amp upgrade options?
2) I have limited understanding on this subject (as on most things, some might say :)), but what benefits would the Maplin type PSU upgrade offer?
I am interested in as many opinions as I can get on both questions, (even critical ones as long as they are polite and intended to enlighten), so please feel free to add your two penn'orth.
Thanks in anticipation and cheers :cool:,
Dave.
HighFidelityGuy
03-05-2009, 11:19
Hello all.
I've done some more troubleshooting of my crackly sound issue on the variable output.
I found that if I have 2x 4032's installed that I get crackles and fizzing through my speakers when I turn the volume knob. This mainly happens at high volume.
I first wanted to see if one of my 4032's was faulty, so I took the headphone one out and tested. No crackles. I then swapped the 4032's round (still only one installed
). No crackles. I then tried having two 4032's installed but the opposite way round to in the beginning. I got crackles.
So I proved that both of my 4032's work on their own but not both at the same time. I'm not sure why this is, so I'd be interested to hear some theories on this.
I then wanted to see if having any two opamps installed caused the crackles. So I first put a 4032 in the line out socket and a 49720 in the headphone socket. No crackles. So I decided to stick with that for now and do some testing with a scope to see how the output looks.
I'll report back later.
Hi Dave,
even at 12V the Maplin PSU is, to me, a step up from the supplied PSU, it just adds that little bit more "solidity" to the sound to my ears (and I generally have an unbeliever's ears when it comes to the effects of swapping cables etc.). It also adds the possibility to boost the voltage to 13.5v, though whether the changes that produces is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion - but it most definitely does have an effect.
Both the 4562 and 4032 are a major improvement over the stock opamps. For most - though not all- in this thread I get the impression the 7032 is the winner, but there are issues with fitting it. I didn't have any problems with the Tirna supplied one but sounds like others have. The 4562 however is easy-peasy to fit.
I found the latter to possibly be slightly more exciting and have fractionally more natural vocals but its bass was a bit blocky or monotone, the 4032 at 12V I find a little clearer and just a touch more "luxurious".
Bear in mind that the opamps are cheap so I'd say its worth getting both and trying them out. Just make to sure to allow burn-in time.
mwahahaha
03-05-2009, 14:18
Can someone give a link of product code for the Maplin PSU - I can see a few on their site but none have 13.5V that I can find.
Cheers
Dan
Search for product code L11BQ :)
There's a used one on flea bay (item #180352661587 ) at the moment if you want to take a punt.
mwahahaha
03-05-2009, 14:47
Thanks Chris, has anyone heard anything about the PSU Stan was working on?
Quietschbox
04-05-2009, 08:50
Thanks Chris, has anyone heard anything about the PSU Stan was working on?
There's a new (improved) stock PSU now coming with the 7520.
Separate PSU (upgrade) option, nothing about that in his reply.
Maybe tell him directly, if you are interested.
Hi Dave,
even at 12V the Maplin PSU is, to me, a step up from the supplied PSU, it just adds that little bit more "solidity" to the sound to my ears (and I generally have an unbeliever's ears when it comes to the effects of swapping cables etc.).
Spod, are you referring to the old 7510 PSU used for 7520 as well ("1stgen")?
Thread pace is speeding up, but less test reports. :/
Here is a snippet from the pinkfishmedia forum:
Beresford TC-7520 impressions
In its standard configuration I was rather disappointed with the TC-7520's sound. Although it exhibited impressive bass grunt,
detailed and a wide soundstage I could not feel any emotional connection with the music. Whether it was through headphones
(Audio Technica ATH-911), into the Linn preamp or using the Beresford preamp into my Linn poweramp I felt I could not engage
with the music at all, timing was all-over-the-place and the musicians sounded invariably reluctant. Often the tune would hold
back when it shouldn't and its reticent presentation was pulling against the rest of the Linn equipment.
LM4562NA:
Much more engaging with some very good mid-band presence. The musicians sounded more human and enjoying their performance.
However this op amp can sound ragged and the lower end of the spectrum lacked heft, to the extent that kick drums were almost non-existent.
Another order sent to Farnell and I received the following op amps: LM6172, LT1364, AD826 and OPA2132PA.
LM6172 and yuk! Avoid, it's nasty. No midrange presence and no freedom
LT1364 is far better - smooth and good presence, but not as much body as the OPA2132PA
AD826 worked very well, great bass, no nasties and smooth while quite airy - a close second to the OPA2132PA.
OPA2132PA stays until I have a go at the THS4032 op amp, where some say this chip is the best.
So for a shade under £200, the result is very impressive - particularly with the OPA2132PA installed.
-end andrew's post
Another user posted:
If you are interested in more chip options try the following:
opa2604 for a more natural response (more fleshy, think hourglass figured woman)
or
tle2072 for a more lively engaging sound (more definition, think petite woman)
i like both but prefer the tle for the more rhythmic sound.
-end partial quote
Quietschbox
04-05-2009, 12:02
To those who know the technical side of this more than i do:
Looking up something like
"opa2604" OR "tle2072" "OPA2132PA"
or
"opa2604" OR "tle2072" "ths4032" OR "ths 4302"
gives quite a lot of results. These should be more or less related to circuitry/conditions of the 7520 slot. But it's more than I can read, and i am no buff at all. That is, it seems this is difficult because of the technical specs and unknown circuitry involved. As well, Stan already is experimenting further with changes around the opamps.
Your view? How far down the opamp hole?
I'd be more inclined to check the User opinions of the Guys in this forum! :)
For most of us.....
4032 is better than 4562 is better than stock.
Get a 4032 from Tirna, stick it in the left hand OpAmp socket (Line out) and enjoy the music! ;)
Get a 4032 from Tirna, stick it in the left hand OpAmp socket (Line out) and enjoy the music! ;)
I have a Tirna 4032 waiting me to to fit it. Having read Stan's warning though I will desolder the I/C socket and solder the 4032 board in place. Maybe I'm being over-cautious.
Spod, are you referring to the old 7510 PSU used for 7520 as well ("1stgen")?The later PSU, I got my 7250 at the end of March. Didn't expect any difference but there does seem to be one.
I have a Tirna 4032 waiting me to to fit it. Having read Stan's warning though I will desolder the I/C socket and solder the 4032 board in place. Maybe I'm being over-cautious.
Warning?
Uhm.........?
Mines is fine, not overheating or anything.
Lid closing fine, not touching the case (Tirna Modded chip)
Whats the warning?
mwahahaha
04-05-2009, 13:13
all fine here with my Tirna board albeit that the lid wont shut (Still need to get round to sending it back)
Warning?
Uhm.........?
Mines is fine, not overheating or anything.
Lid closing fine, not touching the case (Tirna Modded chip)
Whats the warning?
See post 528
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2352&page=53
Covenant
04-05-2009, 13:19
Warning?
Uhm.........?
Mines is fine, not overheating or anything.
Lid closing fine, not touching the case (Tirna Modded chip)
Whats the warning?
Same for me-ONE Tirna modded chip installed for about 2 weeks now with no problems and lid on.
The question earlier about problems with the Tirna chip solution wasn't really answered...
Surely these things would go Bang pretty quickly if there was a problem?
What is it about the Tirna Mod that is a potential problem? The Cap?
Is it the converter board? Whats the problem?
Thanks, something ELSE to worry over. :)
The question earlier about problems with the Tirna chip solution wasn't really answered...
Surely these things would go Bang pretty quickly if there was a problem?
What is it about the Tirna Mod that is a potential problem? The Cap?
Is it the converter board? Whats the problem?
Thanks, something ELSE to worry over. :)
I'm guessing that a poor connection with the socket causes extra resistance which in turn causes instability with the chip which for some reason causes damage upstream in the circuit. Just because it's fine now doesn't mean that as temp changes or you move the dac it won't become a problem - if I'm interpreting and expanding on Stan's warning correctly.
mwahahaha
04-05-2009, 13:39
It's fine by me - rather than sending the opamps back to Tirna to be changed in order to allow the lid to close I can just have them soldered onto the board - I really like the 4032's so don't mind making them a permanent fixture.
Opamps in sockets aren't a perfect solution anyway, proper soldered connections should sound better and won't deteriorate over time.
Does this consideration apply to the LM4562 (and others) as well?
Or just the Tirna solution?
Does this consideration apply to the LM4562 (and others) as well?
Or just the Tirna solution?
I believe it's just the 4032 on the Tirna adapter with the problem. The 4032 being the faster chip (I believe) and therefore the most susceptible to problems. I'm 90% certain so don't take this a gospel.
As for sound quality, any chip soldered in place may see a small lift.
Opamps in sockets aren't a perfect solution anyway, proper soldered connections should sound better and won't deteriorate over time.
Is this really a "real world" concern Clive?
IS it analogous to speaker cable terminations?
(Im showing my total lack of electronics knowledge here!)
Quietschbox
04-05-2009, 14:27
I have nothing against the THS4032. My concern is with the PCB adapter, which is blowing up people's DAC at worst, or only the fuse if they are lucky!
The only sure fire way to fit the mod is to desolder the DIL adapter socket I fitted for the NE5532, and then solder in the SOIC to DIL adapter PCB with the THS4032 on it. Anyone in the UK who can't do that part of the job but would like it done should email me for the details of a fellow engineer who has offered to do the mod for them. The top PCB is removable, so that's all he'll need.
I wonder, does this caution measure apply to a sound test with open lid as well? Or can this be left out for later, after having decided to keep the 4032?
I'd be more inclined to check the User opinions of the Guys in this forum! :)
For most of us.....
4032 is better than 4562 is better than stock.
Get a 4032 from Tirna, stick it in the left hand OpAmp socket (Line out) and enjoy the music! ;)
Yeah, the broad and the narrow way. ;) I am walking a narrow one.
If people here used up their options, why not looking elsewhere?
Stan, if you pass by, what is your opinion, enough opamps, or way more to try?
For the curious only, Homers beware:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466566
http://w3.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1029&t=29870811&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=195
http://jaben.net/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=d667d52681e10a0d53a802049aa663 a9&topic=5500.0
http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1621&start=0
http://forum.esi-audio.com/show.asp?db=at&t=at1&mode=3&msg=2702
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-2637.html
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76689
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72808
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?p=40393
a little more, including headphone amps (possibly above links as well):
http://www.prodigy-pro.com/diy/index.php?topic=25362.0
http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamps.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11153753&postcount=1694
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-66526.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-83757.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=97246
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/ibasso-p3-opamp-rolling-thread-let-rolling-begin-371427/index2.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/ibasso-d10-updates-1st-page-current-opamp-choices-hiflight-images-page-1-12-13-14-15-21-71-a-399315/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/souce-burr-brown-opa2132pa-41678/
Of course, there's still more.
Is this really a "real world" concern Clive?
IS it analogous to speaker cable terminations?
(Im showing my total lack of electronics knowledge here!)
It's certainly not a major concern, aside from Stan's comments on the 4032. It is minor, if you have no need for swapping opamps then having them soldered in place is generally a fraction better - not worth loosing sleep over, much the same as soldered interconnects are better.
With 4032s though the unsoldered connections or extra wire length due to the socket seems to be an issue. Stan really is the best person to comment.
Quietschbox
04-05-2009, 14:49
Thanks Chris, has anyone heard anything about the PSU Stan was working on?
from the psu thread:
I shall add the new PSU as a separate item for purchase in May. The initial feedback from customers who have tried it with the TC-7510 is very positive, as is the feedback from those with a TC-7520 who upgraded from the TC-7510 psu to the TC-7520 psu. Upgrade price is £21 for UK and £23 for the rest of Europe. That includes P&P.
Stan
Covenant
04-05-2009, 15:50
Personally I would prefer not to solder the 4032 in place. The option to try other op-amps in the future is a nice thought. Who knows what will be developed in the future?
If people start reporting faults maybe I will change back to a slower op-amp but it will seem like a backward step.
Quietschbox
04-05-2009, 16:25
Personally I would prefer not to solder the 4032 in place. The option to try other op-amps in the future is a nice thought. Who knows what will be developed in the future?
If people start reporting faults maybe I will change back to a slower op-amp but it will seem like a backward step.
Don't want to spoil someone's pudding ("Braindead") but imho i saw posts indicating there may be other valid options than the THS4032. Maybe one does have to hear in direct comparison. Also, it seems it's a matter of personal preference at a certain grade of quality.
other valid options?
Of course its all subjective, but the 4032 seems GENERALLY to be the preferred one?
Are folk elsewhere talking of a better one than this? :)
Personally I would prefer not to solder the 4032 in place. The option to try other op-amps in the future is a nice thought. Who knows what will be developed in the future?
If people start reporting faults maybe I will change back to a slower op-amp but it will seem like a backward step.
+1
Same here.
Personally I would prefer not to solder the 4032 in place. The option to try other op-amps in the future is a nice thought. Who knows what will be developed in the future?
If people start reporting faults maybe I will change back to a slower op-amp but it will seem like a backward step.
Some input from Stan would be useful. It seems he has knowledge of people whose DACs have died due plugging in a 4032 but no one on AOS has come clean on this. It's hard quantify the risk
Wishing there was a PSU thread and an OpAmp thread so we can concentrate here!! The new Tirna 4032 (after about 20 hours) now sounds great, and the 4562 in the HPA. As mentioned, 2 Tirna 4032s is a no-go, and fairly annoying from a consumer standpoint.
I've asked twice, try again: Is there any strange affect from having the cap on the Tirna and the cap across the same pins that Stan already has on the board?? If you chose to solder the 4032 to the board, would you remove Tirna's?? If I did it that way, anyone's guess on if I could use both 4032s without the distortion/noise in the HPA I was experiencing?
Graci.
Wishing there was a PSU thread and an OpAmp thread so we can concentrate here!! The new Tirna 4032 (after about 20 hours) now sounds great, and the 4562 in the HPA. As mentioned, 2 Tirna 4032s is a no-go, and fairly annoying from a consumer standpoint.
I've asked twice, try again: Is there any strange affect from having the cap on the Tirna and the cap across the same pins that Stan already has on the board?? If you chose to solder the 4032 to the board, would you remove Tirna's?? If I did it that way, anyone's guess on if I could use both 4032s without the distortion/noise in the HPA I was experiencing?
Graci.
I would think you want the Tirna cap there as it's really close to the chip. Whether you remove Stan's cap is open to question.
Covenant
04-05-2009, 17:02
Wishing there was a PSU thread and an OpAmp thread so we can concentrate here!! The new Tirna 4032 (after about 20 hours) now sounds great, and the 4562 in the HPA. As mentioned, 2 Tirna 4032s is a no-go, and fairly annoying from a consumer standpoint.
I've asked twice, try again: Is there any strange affect from having the cap on the Tirna and the cap across the same pins that Stan already has on the board?? If you chose to solder the 4032 to the board, would you remove Tirna's?? If I did it that way, anyone's guess on if I could use both 4032s without the distortion/noise in the HPA I was experiencing?
Graci.
Doug, there is a power supply thread here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2477
Some input from Stan would be useful. It seems he has knowledge of people whose DACs have died due plugging in a 4032 but no one on AOS has come clean on this. It's hard quantify the risk
Yeah..
I've asked twice, try again: Is there any strange affect from having the cap on the Tirna and the cap across the same pins that Stan already has on the board?? If you chose to solder the 4032 to the board, would you remove Tirna's?? If I did it that way, anyone's guess on if I could use both 4032s without the distortion/noise in the HPA I was experiencing?
Graci.
As I understand it, the decoupling cap on the Tirna mod is connected directly to the adapter pins, so would have little or no effect if the adapter was soldered directly to the PCB. There is still a short length of track on the adapter board connecting the SOIC pins to the adapter pins which could have some effect on performance. When I did the mod, I soldered the cap directly to the SOIC pins 4 & 8 (see post 43).
If you really do want to go ahead and solder the adapter to the PCB (I wouldn't personally), you could try it without the cap, and add it later if you get problems.
Good luck - Ken
Quietschbox
04-05-2009, 19:47
other valid options?
Of course its all subjective, but the 4032 seems GENERALLY to be the preferred one?
Are folk elsewhere talking of a better one than this? :)
Well, "better", this depends on what you like/prefer. There just could be one you just like more, while so far it seems there's none that's better in all disciplines.
Also, are you looking for headphones or line out opamp? I can't comment on that, did not dig it long enough.
See that bunch of posts n remarks. Sorry for the layout, take it as is.
George at the end sums it up very well, and that's why i am still browsing pages.
My own favorite is the opa2132pa.
Got the revised mod from Tirna and was disappointed. Still too much height and would not fit in my dac properly.
Initially I found the THS4032 very clear, but after a while I found it a bit thin and fatiguing. IMO, the LM4562 sounds more balanced and natural, but not quite as clear.
Given a choice, I would pick the OPA2132 over the OPA2134. I found the 2134 more veiled and somewhat "phasey" on the highs, while the 2132 sounds a bit more open and natural. Some have claimed they sound the same, but that hasn't been my experience.
hi
have you tried this opamp ths4032?
some say it is better than opa2132 or lm6172 which almost have the same spec if im not mistaken...
so what opamp would you recommend?
ths4302 is different from ths4032
Yes, I found it only in SMT version. It is good, extremelly clean and detailed, but somewhat sterile.
In RCD971 as drop-in replacements the best sounding opamps for me were AD825, AD828 and 2132. OP275 is also ok-
I suspect because the first production run was using OP275 before OPA2604, so the circuit was probably optimized for it.
Originally posted by RICMAN
isnt it that the ad828 is used in video application?
Exactly that one. And directly dropped in Rotel RCD971, without additional decoupling, you can hear "birds" - it oscilates without additional care. However, it is very good sounding opamp, smooth, fast and dynamical. AD828 is more than 3 times faster than both LM6172 and THS4032, so this is proof that RCD971 has already very good elaborated layout.
Just did a comparison between opa2132 and 2134. The former is significantly better with a liquid midrange and airy treble. I am really puzzled by the rave about 2134 on various sites.
I've now been listening to the THS4031 for over a week and I have to say that it is the most cleanest sound, especially through the mids and highs I have ever heard of the multitude of opamps I've tried, which is every one except the hidiously expensive OPA627, this could give it a run from what I've read, but at $60 a pop in Australia, you would have to be mad to buy it, and I need 4, and I've heard it's a bit too laid back for my tastes.
Now that I've told you about the good, let me tell you the bad, and it's a big one.
The THS4031 [single channel, specs same as 4032]has one glaring problem compared to my previous favourite opamp the AD825, it does not have the rhythm of the AD825, and that is a major fault to me, it sounds so good that you forget your not tapping your foot, yet now and again you do get a bit of foot tapping rhythm come through but most of the time it sounds constricted in that department.
Back to the AD825 and your feel that the rhythm beast has been unleashed, even though it's not quite as good in the mids and highs it is still my favourite.
Conclusion, I hate opamps, there's not one that does everything right, I'm now starting to look at the ready made discrete type of I/V stages, and that is another world of hurt and anguish.
Cheers George
Aren't these comments on opamps from all over the place? They won't tell you Anything about how it will perform in the Beresford 7520.
If the cap is ontop of the chip and the lid is pressing on there its going to be a disaster waiting to happen
If the lid scratches exposing the metal its possibe it may short out the cap legs, not that healthy for the regulation/psu
If the lid presses down making contact on that cap+op-amp theres a chance with too much pressure you'll shove those header pins through the main pcb tracks
Another note, op-amps performance will differ depending on what job its doing, for example if it works great in a filter/buffer stage on the output of a voltage output dac it don't mean it'll work great as an I/V stage on the output of a current output dac
I wouldn't rely on any opinions for op-amps thats been tested in other gear, ideally you want a list of ones that have been tested/compared in the Beresford dac:) As already mentioned by the chap above
apmusson
04-05-2009, 21:17
other valid options?
Of course its all subjective, but the 4032 seems GENERALLY to be the preferred one?
Are folk elsewhere talking of a better one than this? :)
I really like the excellent sound I get from the TC7520 & ths4032 opamp. It brings out the best in my system (FLAC / USB Input / TC7520 / Sennheiser HD650 headphones). I don't want to swap back (even to the 4562 which I also have) unless there is a real risk.
There aren't any space issues with the latest Tirna version.
maxrob200
05-05-2009, 00:12
The "sound" of op-amps would also vary depending on the tonal characteristics of the various components in the system from source material to amps, speaker voicing and cables etc. I suppose what's best would ultimately depend on the neutrality of the system to actually allow the true sonic character of the op-amp to reveal itself.
I found that in my system the LM4562NA in the TC-7520 was a great leap forward in overall presentation than the original op-amps. And it's still running in, with the possibility of better performance over time. Others have found 4032 to be better or worse in their systems and some have had results vastly different to mine using the LM4562NA.
ReachtheSky
05-05-2009, 01:07
If the cap is ontop of the chip and the lid is pressing on there its going to be a disaster waiting to happen
If the lid scratches exposing the metal its possibe it may short out the cap legs, not that healthy for the regulation/psu
If the lid presses down making contact on that cap+op-amp theres a chance with too much pressure you'll shove those header pins through the main pcb tracks
Leo, I wonder if you could pass comment on some of the inconsistent experiences happening regarding the THS4032?
Initially, and generally in most cases, many people reported extremely favourable sonic results with the THS4032 both for line out/preamp and headphone use. But I don’t know if these uses were using the 4032’s in both opamps at the same time or not.
More recently a few “problems” have come to light and have been confirmed by Stan also. Coincidently it would appear to happen when 4032’s are used in both opamps and also with low impedance headphones!
From someone who knows little about electronics, is “the problem” likely due to;
a) shorting out on the lid
b) some instability issues caused by the 4032’s
c) both above, or
d) other
Refer to thread #463 regarding instability issues:
This thread also says:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...01#post1156001
"Have you checked the data sheet for the THS4032 compared to the older NJM4580?
It says the OP-amp (THS4032) cant drive a capacitive load unless it is smaller than 20pF. Check all outputs (pin 1 and pin7) to see if there is a proper protection resistor for to avoid oscillations and unstable operations. If there is capacitors connected right on the outputs it could be necessary to apply a series resistor from the output (20-75 ohm maximum). But I’m not sure about the solution due to I dont have any schematics for the SRC2496 to look at and you havnt verified the oscillation on a scope?
Due to the high bandwidth, this circuit operates in class-A and because of that it will be running pretty hot (ca 0.5W heat dissipating for each IC) but could of course run to hot if oscillate."
and
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...38#post1156238
"You can't use the THS4032 for most audio applications because IT'S NOT UNITY-GAIN STABLE, and most audio circuits require that condition. This op-amp is only stable for gains of 2 or higher, as it's intended for video buffering applications. There is no simple way to make it unity-gain stable.
Also, you can't use the THS4032 with +/-15V in a PCB designed for conventional op-amps because it requires specific layout considerations in order to handle those 0.45W of idle dissipation. Furthermore, most PCB layouts designed for conventional audio op-amps just can't handle the 100Mhz bandwidth."
Thanks Granville
Further to the power supply discussion posted earlier - I have tried upping the voltage of my linear power supply as some members are running at 13.5V and are enjoying improved sound. For me, however, I am back to 12.5V - The sound is just too "forward" at over 13V. Temptation is to read the forwardness as higher SQ, but it's not to my taste.
Worth a try though; you may like it...
Ken
Quietschbox
05-05-2009, 10:32
Aren't these comments on opamps from all over the place? They won't tell you Anything about how it will perform in the Beresford 7520.
No, it don't think it's not as simple as you put it. But if you don't want to see it, because you prefer simplicity, why should i explain.
No, it don't think it's not as simple as you put it. But if you don't want to see it, because you prefer simplicity, why should i explain.
Mate, I like your style :)
...but it WAS a fair question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietschbox View Post
No, it don't think it's not as simple as you put it. But if you don't want to see it, because you prefer simplicity, why should i explain.
No, I don't have the requisite electrical engineering knowledge/experience to take examples of the 4032 or another opamp's behavior in various other circuits and then make an educated guess as to how they'll sound in the Beresford 7520, the subject of this thread. I'm stupid enough though to believe it's much better to hear people's opinions of how the actual opamp sounds in this actual device. So yes, no need to waste your time explaining it to me, I'm sure I'll just get dizzy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietschbox View Post
No, it don't think it's not as simple as you put it. But if you don't want to see it, because you prefer simplicity, why should i explain.
No, I don't have the requisite electrical engineering knowledge/experience to take examples of the 4032 or another opamp's behavior in various other circuits and then make an educated guess as to how they'll sound in the Beresford 7520, the subject of this thread. I'm stupid enough though to believe it's much better to hear people's opinions of how the actual opamp sounds in this actual device. So yes, no need to waste your time explaining it to me, I'm sure I'll just get dizzy.
Fair comment Doug.
and I kinda agree, thats why I suggested this Forum (even this Thread!) as a great source of Opinions on the Op Amps.
I'm sure if you Google it, it would lead to here! :)
Covenant
05-05-2009, 14:21
Which is why we need more people trying more opamps! :)
Quietschbox
06-05-2009, 19:22
Which is why we need more people trying more opamps! :)
And that's just what i was aiming at, because if no buff comes here and tosses in his knowledge, we just have to look elsewhere, too.
But i got a stronger impression noone was interested in looking outside this thread box.
[I]No, I don't have the requisite electrical engineering knowledge/experience to take examples of the 4032 or another opamp's behavior in various other circuits and then make an educated guess as to how they'll sound in the Beresford 7520, the subject of this thread. I'm stupid enough though to believe it's much better to hear people's opinions of how the actual opamp sounds in this actual device. So yes, no need to waste your time explaining it to me, I'm sure I'll just get dizzy.
See, i knew it, harhar. :eyebrows:
-My post with AndrewR from PFM, and the later links, you would have noticed there is at least one, if not a few more mentions and tests with TC-7520.
-As well, if theres a THS4032 review, including other opamps tried here= quite likely this is usable material/opamps
-And third, with SAME comment on sound, and some similar opamps as tried here, you can conclude, it's a usable comment and opamp collection
There you are. Won't make it longer.
And while all of this may be fine, it still in the end may turn out:
-that there are no better opamps, just different ones,
-that opamp surrounding circuitry could be a playing field, but too much knowledge
is needed (example see Stans photo - anyone wanna try? ;) ),
-that DAC change would be the third and last option, but seems it's way too difficult to do
Gazjam, wanna try the OPA2132PA(correct name) and OPA2132(didn't check type, maybe that means the -PA, too)?
yeah, id like to try those different Op Amps
you need a list of types which are stable, then its just a case of comparing sonically the stable ones
I know a lot of op-amps, theres also a through hole (non SMD) type which is internally the same as THS4032, main difference is that the bandwidth is a bit lower (for a reason) it has output compensation inplemented
I can't say if it will work ok in this dac though
Any fet input based op-amp like the OPA2132 is going to sound different to a bipolar based one like the THS4032
StanleyB
09-05-2009, 08:24
And that's just what i was aiming at, because if no buff comes here and tosses in his knowledge, we just have to look elsewhere, too. But i got a stronger impression noone was interested in looking outside this thread box.
I must say that I am taken back by those comments. Given the quality of the membership on AoS and the fast knowledge that many of them bring to this BB from their own line of work, I would challenge your assertion that we need a 'buff' to come here and toss in his knowledge. He would be surrounded by other buffs who are already members and have been tossing in their knowledge almost from day one.
I think that what confuses you is that things are discussed in simple and plain English with little or no university style formulas, graphs, etc. But that is because AoS is not for snobs waiving about their university degrees. Most of us are more of the 'shed in the back of the garden' type of guys, rather than a lab full of impressive looking CRT or LCD displays.
STan
Quietschbox
09-05-2009, 10:03
you need a list of types which are stable, then its just a case of comparing sonically the stable ones
How to determine which ones are stable/where to find such a list?
I know a lot of op-amps, theres also a through hole (non SMD) type which is internally the same as THS4032, main difference is that the bandwidth is a bit lower (for a reason) it has output compensation inplemented
I can't say if it will work ok in this dac though
Any fet input based op-amp like the OPA2132 is going to sound different to a bipolar based one like the THS4032
Yes, though so far this this seemed to give variety, not problems.
I must say that I am taken back by those comments. Given the quality of the membership on AoS and the fast knowledge that many of them bring to this BB from their own line of work, I would challenge your assertion that we need a 'buff' to come here and toss in his knowledge. He would be surrounded by other buffs who are already members and have been tossing in their knowledge almost from day one.
I think that what confuses you is that things are discussed in simple and plain English with little or no university style formulas, graphs, etc. But that is because AoS is not for snobs waiving about their university degrees. Most of us are more of the 'shed in the back of the garden' type of guys, rather than a lab full of impressive looking CRT or LCD displays.
STan
I don't know, Stan, are you taking something too seriously here?
You know i am techwise uneducated, and also new to this forum.
That said, maybe you want to add something constructive. For example,
what do you think about the remaining opamp choice options?
yeah, id like to try those different Op Amps
Later? Or is there some obstacle still?
Later? Or is there some obstacle still?
No, not an obstacle. :)
The way you phrased your suggestion seemed to indicate you were willing to supply them for me to test.
Sometimes people need to watch how they come across in forums sometimes, its easy to miss inflections etc?
Which leads me to....
How to determine which ones are stable/where to find such a list?
That said, maybe you want to add something constructive. For example,
what do you think about the remaining opamp choice options?
I'll think you find that Stan is the one guy who has went "above and beyond" in adding something "constructive".....
We're lucky to have him on here, he doesn't need to contribute the way he does - he just believes in his product and the "little guy", which is why he does what he does.
Your new to the forum Mate, just chill out a bit :)
Its all good.
Quietschbox
09-05-2009, 12:04
No, not an obstacle. :)
The way you phrased your suggestion seemed to indicate you were willing to supply them for me to test.
Hm, yes, that's true, one can read it as an offer, though it's just a simple question. You asked for more options, this one to me seems to be a candidate
so far. Because it's just once tested here, though recommended by that user. In this thread already, if you browse back.
Say, is someone here waiting for me to sieve my own links and make a list?
I guess anonye can do that for himself and by that get a more accurate
picture of those threads and tests opinions?
Say, is someone here waiting for me to sieve my own links and make a list?
I guess anonye can do that for himself and by that get a more accurate
picture of those threads and tests opinions?
Go and knock yourself out then.
Quietschbox
09-05-2009, 12:09
Go and knock yourself out then.
Bad mood?
Bad mood?
Not at all. "knock yourself out" means go ahead and do it.
Hm, yes, that's true, one can read it as an offer, though it's just a simple question. You asked for more options, this one to me seems to be a candidate
so far. Because it's just once tested here, though recommended by that user. In this thread already, if you browse back.
Say, is someone here waiting for me to sieve my own links and make a list?
I guess anonye can do that for himself and by that get a more accurate
picture of those threads and tests opinions?
Why not.. every body on this forum contributes in some form or other...So question is why not you..get your self into gear..and start making a constructive comment ..with a bit trawling through other sites..and come up with a bit of info we can all benefit from ...Than try to shoot holes through other member post..PUT SOMETHING IN
JON
I go away for one day and turns into a bitchfest!!!:lol:
Chill dudes!!!!
Is this the first AoS fallout? Wooh!, we're going to become that headphone place and start accusing people of impersonations! :ner:
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
I'd just like someone electronically more knowledgable and financially braver than me to suggest something I can easily buy off ebay and plug into the 7520 without requiring soldering or brains, something that has the clarity of the 4032 but a bit more "oomph" and the natural vocals of the 4562 without the bass problems - that's why I 'm reading this thread. Fallouts are just the entertaining garnish!
PS. Jon1 - "everybody on this forum contributes in some form or other" - how dare you suggest I'm a useful member of this community!!!http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/images/smiley/RollingEyes.gif
(MEMO TO HEAD-HONCHOS: WE NEED A PROPER ROLLING EYES SMILEY!!! - took me yonks to find that rubbish one, though its better than the supplied one)
With all the 7520's out there I'm amazed nobody has tested a load of this stuff :scratch:
Stans already done the hard bit designing the thing, you'll have to share mods if your wanting to squeeze that last ounce out of it
ReachtheSky
10-05-2009, 00:20
Thought I’d add my opamp experiences with the THS4032 and LT1364’s. My comments are based on using the 7520 as a digital preamp connected directly to mono block power amps through to speakers.
Based on the overwhelming early favouritism for the 4032’s I promptly ordered a pair of the latest lowered Tirna 4032’s, before learning that using two such 4032’s “may” cause some technical problems. As such I have not attempted to use the 4032 pair together at this time. I can confirm that these latest lowered Tirna 4032’s fit nicely in my 7520 without touching the lid. Being cautious I have also insulated the lid just to be on the safe side.
The THS4032’s are truly awesome. Great in every aspect. A true all rounder, giving a fuller and somewhat “conservative” warm and smooth, but still detailed, accurate sonic signature.
Now the LT1364’s are a very different and surprising package! (I chose to try these rather than the current second favourite LM4562’s as I’d interpreted the 4562’s to be similar to, but maybe not as good as, the 4032’s?) So for something quite different……..these LT1364’s are seriously exciting! They give that feeling of wild youthful exuberance rather than mature conservative class! They provide remarkable detail, so much so that it is difficult not to frequently come back to them for that added dimension. I can also add that I have not experienced the HF ringing or brightness that some have mentioned.
From the many diverse comments to date, I can only conclude that opamp preferences and sonics must be very system dependant. Regardless of what one reads, you need to try them for yourself in your own system.
With all the 7520's out there I'm amazed nobody has tested a load of this stuff :scratch:
Stans already done the hard bit designing the thing, you'll have to share mods if your wanting to squeeze that last ounce out of it
Leo...that's your department..joking aside...I got that diy dac from hong kong ..built it with a bit of help from a mate..He put the last few bits on and desolder a few more..had them in the wrong place...He tested it no joy ..The SAA7220..has a fault..so contacted the supplier for a replacement..One has being shipped..But still waiting two weeks now:(So that is the state of play at this moment in time..the project has stopped ...Will post some pics when it is up and running ..
jon
Covenant
10-05-2009, 08:30
Is the LT1364 available in the UK?
Is the LT1364 available in the UK?
Farnell is your friend.
Are we back on track now?
I've spent my pocket money this month on AMB's γ1 (Gamma 1) portable DAC kit (awaiting parts as we speak) - So here's a couple of suggestions for you guys to try:
The AD8620 - I know it's a FET input op-amp, but I have used it in the past and found it difficult to beat if you prefer a more forward sound. Quite expensive at the moment though and only available in SOIC. But these guys do a pre-mounted chip: http://cimarrontechnology.com/pre-mountedad8620arop-amppnad8620-970601s.aspx and their shipping is very reasonable.
The AD826 - I have never used this op-amp, but it gets good reviews on the forums. May be a bit of a handfull to control like the THS4032, but the spec sheet is very impressive. Price is reasonable at about 5GBP, but it does come in 8pin DIP.
OK, I am looking to Stan or Leo for their advice next - I have been pondering whether it would be worthwhile upgrading the electrolytic capacitors on the HA board of the TC-7520 to something like Rubycon ZA or Nichicon "MUSE". Is it worth the effort? What are the likely sonic gains, if any? Your help will be appreciated.
Ken
StanleyB
10-05-2009, 09:45
I have been pondering whether it would be worthwhile upgrading the electrolytic capacitors on the HA board of the TC-7520 to something like Rubycon ZA or Nichicon "MUSE". Is it worth the effort? What are the likely sonic gains, if any? Your help will be appreciated.
The case won't close. Those caps I am using are special audio grade caps in any case. Did you not notice that they have a larger diameter compared to general purpose caps?
Stan
The case won't close. Those caps I am using are special audio grade caps in any case. Did you not notice that they have a larger diameter compared to general purpose caps?
Stan
They are pretty close to the Rubycon ZA's size wise - The ZA 220u is a little taller though. But if you say the fitted caps can't be improved on, that's good enough for me.:respect:
StanleyB
10-05-2009, 10:28
My caps use a secret ingredient: hemp:eyebrows:. From there my handle 'Sensimilia' :smoking:.
Stan
My caps use a secret ingredient: hemp:eyebrows:. From there my handle 'Sensimilia' :smoking:.
Stan
That explains the certain "laid-back" quality of the DAC...;)
Leo...that's your department..joking aside...I got that diy dac from hong kong ..built it with a bit of help from a mate..He put the last few bits on and desolder a few more..had them in the wrong place...He tested it no joy ..The SAA7220..has a fault..so contacted the supplier for a replacement..One has being shipped..But still waiting two weeks now:(So that is the state of play at this moment in time..the project has stopped ...Will post some pics when it is up and running ..
jon
Jon,
Sorry to hear about the ebay dac, maybe best to start another thread discussing this one but you sure its just the SA7220 which is at fault? Did you try bypassing it? If the rest of the dac is ok you should be able to run it in NOS until you get a replacement SAA7220
My caps use a secret ingredient: hemp:eyebrows:. From there my handle 'Sensimilia' :smoking:.
Stan
Manila hemp, like Silmics and the Panny ECA (audiograde) :smoking:
Are we back on track now?
I've spent my pocket money this month on AMB's γ1 (Gamma 1) portable DAC kit (awaiting parts as we speak) - So here's a couple of suggestions for you guys to try:
The AD8620 - I know it's a FET input op-amp, but I have used it in the past and found it difficult to beat if you prefer a more forward sound. Quite expensive at the moment though and only available in SOIC. But these guys do a pre-mounted chip: http://cimarrontechnology.com/pre-mountedad8620arop-amppnad8620-970601s.aspx and their shipping is very reasonable.
The AD826 - I have never used this op-amp, but it gets good reviews on the forums. May be a bit of a handfull to control like the THS4032, but the spec sheet is very impressive. Price is reasonable at about 5GBP, but it does come in 8pin DIP.
OK, I am looking to Stan or Leo for their advice next - I have been pondering whether it would be worthwhile upgrading the electrolytic capacitors on the HA board of the TC-7520 to something like Rubycon ZA or Nichicon "MUSE". Is it worth the effort? What are the likely sonic gains, if any? Your help will be appreciated.
Ken
AD826, not sure if this one will behave in the 7520, if it does it should be very good.
AD8620 has its fans, its similar to AD8066 but behaves more in a wider range of circuits, some find it lacks bottom end
Last time I used one of these adding a CRD from output to supply pin with worse PSRR greatly improved it
I've tried dozens of op-amps, not in this dac though
Jon,
Sorry to hear about the ebay dac, maybe best to start another thread discussing this one but you sure its just the SA7220 which is at fault? Did you try bypassing it? If the rest of the doc is ok you should be able to run it in NOS until you get a replacement SAA7220
Leo... the bypass is already in had just in case...will start a new thread when we get some life in the dac....
jon
Covenant
10-05-2009, 16:02
At some point I want to use my 7520 as a power amp, this being a route that Stan designed it for. I imagine that the volume pot must be good quality but was wondering if there is room for something more exotic like a stepped attenuator.
Any thoughts?
At some point I want to use my 7520 as a power amp, this being a route that Stan designed it for. I imagine that the volume pot must be good quality but was wondering if there is room for something more exotic like a stepped attenuator.
Any thoughts?
Stepped attenuators are quite big, what sort of pot is fitted in a 7520? is it something like a mini pot or standard sized job?
A digital attenuator would be far more interesting imo
For the cheap steppers theres some on here http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Audio-Lab__W0QQ_armrsZ1 and for the more pricey http://www.dact.com/html/attenuators.html
Dimensions etc should be easy to find
Covenant
10-05-2009, 16:26
Stepped attenuators are quite big, what sort of pot is fitted in a 7520? is it something like a mini pot or standard sized job?
A digital attenuator would be far more interesting imo
Surprised you said that Leo. I thought digital attenuators were not considered as good as something with Vishay or Dale resistors in it.
Surprised you said that Leo. I thought digital attenuators were not considered as good as something with Vishay or Dale resistors in it.
For a separate pre/line stage I probably would go with a stepped attenuator like the Dact but for something like a small dac a digital one maybe more convenient, more compact etc
Also be easier to add remote if really required
One reason I like sitting next to my 7520 "pre amp" is that I can adjust the volume in very fine increments. Having had the Arcam A85 integrated (digital volume +dig. balance and tone from remote!) and two NAD integrated, the problem with the remotes was getting fine adjustments with each push of the button. No problem now. Plus I like being able to switch back and forth between the coax and usb inputs.
Covenant
10-05-2009, 18:30
I prefer to get up and adjust the volume as its about the only exercise I get.
That would explain my recent weight gain!
apmusson
11-05-2009, 11:48
AD826, not sure if this one will behave in the 7520, if it does it should be very good.
AD8620 has its fans, its similar to AD8066 but behaves more in a wider range of circuits, some find it lacks bottom end
Last time I used one of these adding a CRD from output to supply pin with worse PSRR greatly improved it
I've tried dozens of op-amps, not in this dac though
I'm considering trying either one of the 2 you mention above or maybe even a couple of OPA627s on a brown dog adaptor. I am currently using a THS4032 (headphone) with a 4562 (fixed output). Headphones are my primary listening equipment and I read that the 627s are an excellent headphone driver.
Any comments? Would the browndog adaptor fit? Am I out of my mind (the 4032 is superb already)?
TeTsuo36
11-05-2009, 13:40
Hi all,
First post, so please be gentle!
I have been following the tread closely and read the whole thread through again today, so decided to pull the data together so far: (yes, i am pretty anal)
LM4562NA
Significant improvement on stock, smooth wide soundstage, one note bass, best for headphone output.
#1, #5, #38, #208, #334
OPA2132PA
Suggested that 4562 is better, although sound is good.
#1, #198
OPA2134
Suggested that 4562 is better, although sound is good.
#1, #198
THS4032
Superb opamp, detailed, punchy, huge soundstage, Potential stability issues. Least fatiguing. Overall favorite (probably). Use for line out, not headphone. Maybe should be soldered if to be used permanantly.
#1, #112, #208, #210, #235, #236, #332, #403, #526, #604, #650
LME49720HA
Leaner and airier then 4562, more clinical and revealing of recording. On further burn in may be an improvement on 4562, with deeper bass and improved clarity.
#1, #30, #83, #97
LME49860 - not tested
#84
LT1364
Potential problems due to high speed. Leaner sound to 4562, not as rich but more detail. More solid than 49720, better definition and speed than 2134 (in a 7510) Tad bright. Using 2 chips effects overall sound positively.
#117, #154, #324, #331, #338, #354, #398, #410
OPA2111KP - not tested
#126
LT1469 - not tested
#131
AD8066
Detail, speed, clarity, quite forward, similar to 1364 (in a 7510).
#338, #379
OPA2107 - not tested
#553
AD826 - not tested
#654, #661
AD8260 - not tested
#654, #661
I have been looking at DACs for about a month, read 100s of threads/reviews all over the net and have decided to pull the trigger on the 7520 on pay day.
I have been looking at some other opamp (exotic/potentially fatal/definately risky!) options and wondered if anyone had experience (maybe in other applications).
If you do a OPA627 mono dual ebay search there is a guy (in Taiwan i think) selling 2 OPA627 combined as a direct replacement for the NE5532. I emailed him and he says the chips are genuine and will fit straight in. If height is an issue he also sells an extension cable for it. I have no idea how good/bad an idea this would be from an electronics angle? They are cheap too, almost too cheap!
Also has anyone heard the sun, earth & moon discrete opamps from audio-gd.com? They look similar to the Burson Audio Opamp101 (but not £90 each). I wondered if these could work off board. They look like they would fit, again with the extension. I can't find them on the site at the mo', but i know they are there.
Final question. I had great results upgrading input capicitors in my tripath, could the same be applied here, or is it not as critical?
I have no electronics knowledge at all (i fried my 1st DIY AMP6 41hz.com) and have no idea how my 2nd one works, it just does, so i am seeking a little guidance from those who do know about this stuff. I can read a datasheet, i just don't understand what it says!
Role on pay day and will probably try out one of these options then, with a backup 4562/4032.
All the best, Mark. :)
That's certainly a lot better than my first post.
Great summary, I would say, of peoples findings to date.
TeTsuo36
11-05-2009, 13:50
apmusson Hi!
There is guy selling something ready built using the OPA627 on ebay. I have not been able to find any reviews on the net, after much searching.
Also found the link for the sun/earth/moon and cable http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/pro/diy/OPA.htm
Regards. Mark.
Hi Mark,
Great post - A good summary of the op-amp saga.
The OPA627 can be a superb chip - I use it (opa637 actually) in one of my headphone amps and it really is a class above. But keep in mind it is an FET input op-amp and so may sound different in the 7520.
Also be aware of buying from Ebay - This chip is expensive and therefore a target for the cloners. I know people who have been hit by this scam - So, you pays your money ...
However, the chips should fit on a "over and under" BrownDog adapter.
They are a bit too expensive for me to try - I would give the AD826 a tryout if it was my decision.
Cheers - Ken
apmusson
11-05-2009, 14:37
apmusson Hi!
There is guy selling something ready built using the OPA627 on ebay. I have not been able to find any reviews on the net, after much searching.
Also found the link for the sun/earth/moon and cable http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/pro/diy/OPA.htm
Regards. Mark.
Nice post.
Thanks for the tip. I have ordered a set (2 opa627s on a browndog adaptor). It looks as though they have created a small browndog that takes as little space as the current THS402 SOIC - DIL 8 board so it should fit nicely. Will let you know how they work out. I think theyve got some way to go to beat the THS4032, but I'm hoping they edge it in the headphone driving stakes....
Ade
Also found the link for the sun/earth/moon and cable http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/pro/diy/OPA.htm
Regards. Mark.
I have no experience of these modules, but looking at the pics. there's no way they would fit the 7520 case unless you are pretty handy with a ball pein hammer! ;)
Ken
apmusson
11-05-2009, 14:54
Hi Mark,
Great post - A good summary of the op-amp saga.
The OPA627 can be a superb chip - I use it (opa637 actually) in one of my headphone amps and it really is a class above. But keep in mind it is an FET input op-amp and so may sound different in the 7520.
Also be aware of buying from Ebay - This chip is expensive and therefore a target for the cloners. I know people who have been hit by this scam - So, you pays your money ...
However, the chips should fit on a "over and under" BrownDog adapter.
They are a bit too expensive for me to try - I would give the AD826 a tryout if it was my decision.
Cheers - Ken
Hi Ken,
Thanks very much for the info.
The "over and under" browndog looks like it'll do the trick!
I checked the ebayer and he has good feedback (and lots of it), he also has a story that he bought them a while back for a hifi project and no longer needs them. It sounds plausible - so I'll give it a shot. As with any gamble I will not be too upset if it doesn't work out.
I'll let you know how it works out.
Ade
TeTsuo36
11-05-2009, 15:10
Also be aware of buying from Ebay - This chip is expensive and therefore a target for the cloners. I know people who have been hit by this scam - So, you pays your money ...
Cheers - Ken
The ebay seller is Vintage Audio Lab, i think he does the Valab NOS Dac, he is called Kevin i believe. That said it is very cheap, but he seemed genuine. I'd hate sending it back to China and then chasing a refund....painful indeed.
Trailer, How's the Wolfson WM8716 transplant coming along? Have you got the box back yet?
The ebay seller is Vintage Audio Lab, i think he does the Valab NOS Dac, he is called Kevin i believe. That said it is very cheap, but he seemed genuine. I'd hate sending it back to China and then chasing a refund....painful indeed.
One of the guys I know who was scammed didn't get his money back :( - Not nice! He knew as soon as he received the chips they were fakes - The markings were all wrong - They did work though, which makes it worse if anything.
Anyway, good luck if you go ahead.
Cheers - Ken
A repair job I once did was on an amp which went into DC protection after about an hours use.
Cut a long story short I traced it down to a pair of single op-amps used in the servo, they was supposed to be opa604, the printing didn't even look right on close inspection so was possible fakes (god knows why anybody would want to make fakes of these) they also measured extremely noisy .
Anyway replacing with a new pair of proper ones cured the problem
BTW, theres the opa827 now which is supposed to be an improved version of the 627, theres also a bipolar input version opa211
TeTsuo36
11-05-2009, 20:54
A repair job I once did was on an amp which went into DC protection after about an hours use.
Cut a long story short I traced it down to a pair of single op-amps used in the servo, they was supposed to be opa604, the printing didn't even look right on close inspection so was possible fakes (god knows why anybody would want to make fakes of these) they also measured extremely noisy .
Anyway replacing with a new pair of proper ones cured the problem
BTW, theres the opa827 now which is supposed to be an improved version of the 627, theres also a bipolar input version opa211
320368973254 ebay item no.
This is a UK seller, good feedback (100%, 589), he has 3 left. Less of a risk than from 1/2 way around the world. He added a comment at 20:29 regarding the product being genuine. I took a punt anyway, mmmm not even bought the 7520 yet. Fool.
apmusson
11-05-2009, 22:03
320368973254 ebay item no.
This is a UK seller, good feedback (100%, 589), he has 3 left. Less of a risk than from 1/2 way around the world. He added a comment at 20:29 regarding the product being genuine. I took a punt anyway, mmmm not even bought the 7520 yet. Fool.
The comment was as a result of my query. I am looking forward to trying the 627, but am not sure how they can better the ths4032 in my system. Problem I have is that Its addictive this opamp swapping....
Ade
:lolsign:
Trailer, How's the Wolfson WM8716 transplant coming along? Have you got the box back yet?
I'm out of the country at the moment until next week or so.
Will report back as and when.
StanleyB
12-05-2009, 12:26
My own WM8716/LM4562NA modded version is just something else. I have been testing mine for a few weeks now against a standard TC-7520, and on complex material the separation is far better.
If I can get my hands on a small quantity of the WM8716 without having to buy the 1K minimum quantity I might do a limited run of a SE version if there is enough interest. But keep in mind that it could cost an extra £30 to £50. The chips would have to be inserted by hand on the PCB since it would require far too much to reprogram the automatic pick-and-place machine to do a limited run.
Stan
Covenant
12-05-2009, 12:44
Is this the upgrade you are looking into for those of us who already have a 7520?
StanleyB
12-05-2009, 13:32
Nope. This is a completely separate product. It's not an upgrade of any sorts and I don't intend to make more than 50 or so and share them between myself and my handful of distributors around the globe. But it is early days yet. Before anything comes off we are looking at a few months of preparations etc.
STan
Covenant
12-05-2009, 13:53
How are you going to distribute that number fairly?
Me first by the way.
apmusson
12-05-2009, 14:25
Stan
I'll have one from you too.
Ade
StanleyB
12-05-2009, 16:44
How are you going to distribute that number fairly?
Fairly:confused:? It ain't three fishes and five loafs of bread. I reckon I already have half of them sold based on email inquiries.
Stan
Stan, is higher bit rate (96) in works for USB input?
My own WM8716/LM4562NA modded version is just something else. I have been testing mine for a few weeks now against a standard TC-7520, and on complex material the separation is far better.
Stan
I'm very interested in the Wolfson upgrade Stan, Can you please expand on how in your opinion the sound is improved? Have you tried the WM8716 with the THS4032, or is the WM8716/LM4562NA combination the winner?
Also - It looks a little tight in there, but can you do the DAC swap with the main PCB still installed in the case?
Sorry about the number of questions, but this is quite an exciting upgrade :)
Ken
Fairly:confused:? It ain't three fishes and five loafs of bread.
Stan
:lol: You make me laugh mr B
Ali Tait
12-05-2009, 17:10
Hi Stan,
I'll take one of those off your hands please. :)
Hi Stan,
I'll take one of those off your hands please. :)
Me too!
kalozois100
12-05-2009, 17:24
My own WM8716/LM4562NA modded version is just something else. I have been testing mine for a few weeks now against a standard TC-7520, and on complex material the separation is far better.
If I can get my hands on a small quantity of the WM8716 without having to buy the 1K minimum quantity I might do a limited run of a SE version if there is enough interest. But keep in mind that it could cost an extra £30 to £50. The chips would have to be inserted by hand on the PCB since it would require far too much to reprogram the automatic pick-and-place machine to do a limited run.
Stan
Halleluya!!
this is the sign from above I have been waiting for before getting a 7520. However I can't see myself being in lucky few to have the SE (I personally prefer it to be called a 7520Wolf. We could refer to it as the" wolf " cause it has a wolfson inside .A slogan could be " Out of nowhere the beresford wolf allows the music to pounce on you " Far more interesting than the run of the mill SE IMO) . Ah well now you now why Im not in advertising i suppose:mental:
looks like the distributers are in for a treat though........
By all means Stan cater for the gods in mount olympus but think of us mere mortals too on the ground also wanting a wolf :ner:
There's nothing stopping you getting your own chip and getting a decent electronics engineer to do it for you if you're not one of the "chosen ones".
kalozois100
12-05-2009, 17:39
There's nothing stopping you getting your own chip and getting a decent electronics engineer to do it for you if you're not one of the "chosen ones".
Yep thats definately an option if I don't get a seat on noah's arc :doh:
But i want one but i neither have the time or energy to chase up an electronics engineer to do it for me. Been there and done it with the 7510:)
Im a patient man........ sooner or later the wolf will come out on public sale(he hopes:confused:)
StanleyB
12-05-2009, 18:01
Can you please expand on how in your opinion the sound is improved? :scratch:.......:gig:!
Have you tried the WM8716 with the THS4032, or is the WM8716/LM4562NA combination the winner?
The THS4032 is surface mount, which would mean a PCB redesign. Not economical for such a small run. That will have to wait for another day when I develop a complete top PCB that can be swapped over. The top PCB has plug in connectors with that possibility in mind.
Also - It looks a little tight in there, but can you do the DAC swap with the main PCB still installed in the case?
I managed it, so it is possible. But it is a level up in skills from the average electronics engineer. It takes between 15 minutes to half an hour to get it right and you normally only get one chance to get it right. So careful preparation and extremely steady hands are a must.
I managed it, so it is possible. But it is a level up in skills from the average electronics engineer. It takes between 15 minutes to half an hour to get it right and you normally only get one chance to get it right. So careful preparation and extremely steady hands are a must.
OK, thanks very much Stan - All understood.
So it's not something to try after a few of these :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: ?
Covenant
12-05-2009, 18:29
I think 'The Wolf' is a great name...how about it Stan?
How about calling it the -----
WOLVERINE!
StanleyB
13-05-2009, 10:57
Call it what you like, but I won't be printing it on the case. The printers want $10 per case if it is just 50 pcs.
Stan
Covenant
13-05-2009, 13:06
How about calling it the -----
WOLVERINE!
A bit tacky-makes me think of Marvel comics and second rate films. Any more suggestions?
Covenant
13-05-2009, 13:08
Call it what you like, but I won't be printing it on the case. The printers want $10 per case if it is just 50 pcs.
Stan
Stan has an ability to bring things down to earth with a bump......
StanleyB
13-05-2009, 13:22
Stan has an ability to bring things down to earth with a bump......
Fly by surfers tend to read stuff on AoS and then take it as gospel. Up to not so long ago I was getting inquiries for the TC-7510+, even though that has been changed to the TC-7520...
Covenant
13-05-2009, 13:38
Personally I like an easy to remember name rather that a string of numbers and letters. 7520SE sounds so 1980's. The decision is of course yours Stan but it would be a bit of fun to pick a catchy name, even if its just a nick-name. :)
StanleyB
13-05-2009, 14:42
What about AoS?
Covenant
13-05-2009, 15:09
Yea not bad and it gives Art of Sound a bit of publicity.
Any more ideas anyone?
TeTsuo36
13-05-2009, 15:26
Hi,
i suppose this is a question for Stan.
If one was to do this DIY is the required part:
WM8716SEDS - Stereo DAC - 28 pin SSOP Package?
Thanks in advance,
Mark.
TC = Top Cat, doesn't it? (or maybe Top Cap if one is talking electrolitically!)
StanleyB
13-05-2009, 16:17
If one was to do this DIY is the required part:
WM8716SEDS - Stereo DAC - 28 pin SSOP Package?
That's the one.
SoH --- Sense of Humour!
Regards
I don't have the spare cash to buy another 7520, so I won't be part of the scrabble for any kind of limited/special edition of Mr.B's latest and greatest. It will be the "Out of Reach" DAC as far as I'm concerned :(
Covenant
13-05-2009, 18:04
I don't have the spare cash to buy another 7520, so I won't be part of the scrabble for any kind of limited/special edition of Mr.B's latest and greatest. It will be the "Out of Reach" DAC as far as I'm concerned :(
Dont forget the very good second hand values of Mr B's products.(Thats how I justified it my mind)
Well, I won't be speculating with my 7520. It's in constant use, I'd miss it too much and so it's going nowhere.
If the dear old pound was still worth $2 then may be the TC-7520 would have been built with a wolfson chip and lm4562 op amps as standard. But then only Mr.B can tell us that.
apmusson
13-05-2009, 21:33
Hi Guys,
Just fitted my new brown dogged dual opa627 into the TC7520. First impressions are the sound is rich and full bodied, but not as spine tingley clear as the THS4032. I've learned my lesson with newly fitted opamps though and intend to give it a couple of days to burn in before concluding.
Question for Stan - I assume that the 4562 will be just be fitted in the existing DIL socket in the 7520 Wolf? I'd still like to try out all the opamps I have purchased in the past few months with the Wolfson DAC....
Ade
StanleyB
14-05-2009, 06:21
Question for Stan - I assume that the 4562 will be just be fitted in the existing DIL socket in the 7520 Wolf? I'd still like to try out all the opamps I have purchased in the past few months with the Wolfson DAC....
Ade
Have you considered getting a Creek amp instead? I read on another thread that someone got an even greater level of improvement from their SB3 through a Creek than via the TC-7520:eyebrows:.
7520 SB Signature
(Stick some copper on it)
sell it for 300GBP
Covenant
14-05-2009, 17:54
7520 SB Signature
(Stick some copper on it)
sell it for 300GBP
7520 Reference.
But dont stick copper on it and dont sell it for £300 'cos I want one!
kalozois100
14-05-2009, 18:52
I think 'The Wolf' is a great name...how about it Stan?
Thanks for the support Covenant.
Fly by surfers tend to read stuff on AoS and then take it as gospel. Up to not so long ago I was getting inquiries for the TC-7510+, even though that has been changed to the TC-7520...
Yep Stan and I would suspect your rivals are surfing and reading too. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them using wolfson chips in their dacs gazumped you and used it on their models. Don't be so defensive Stan just trying to help you out with a good name for your excellent product. Its the least i can do after all the after sales support you give to the rest us. The name is well thought out as the beresford being such good value is like the wolf in the forest that no other animal likes (rivals) since it has the ability to survive the most challenging of environments bit like the beresford suviving the most challenging pieces of music!!
bigmac, hoover, merc, ,jumbo jet, Bic, shake,coke, T-shirt, are just a few examples of simple names that are easily identified with the product and have stood the test of time.
imagine in 30 years time a reviewer doing a retro article on the beresford. "Now lets take a look at the wolf in shadow of its time. The Wolf dac was an amazing dragon slayer in its hayday........ etc,etc." oh please tell me you would still like the article to start off with " The 7520SE was very impressive for the price bla..bla..bla.".and usual hifi babble
infact im gonna open a new thread on product names that have become well known all over the world and stood the test of time. !!
apmusson
14-05-2009, 20:02
Have you considered getting a Creek amp instead? I read on another thread that someone got an even greater level of improvement from their SB3 through a Creek than via the TC-7520:eyebrows:.
Err... I'm not sure I know what your mean? I am very happy with my TC7520 and the options that opamp swapping give me - as you know. I don't have a SB3 and don't want a separate amp... I'm confused.
Stratmangler
14-05-2009, 22:09
Err... I'm not sure I know what your mean? I am very happy with my TC7520 and the options that opamp swapping give me - as you know. I don't have a SB3 and don't want a separate amp... I'm confused.
Depends on what you call greater detail - if it's pronounced upper mid & hf then you can count me out.
I have a TC 7510 6/3 with the full Mod21 upgrades (self implemented - thanks Stan), and I am constantly impressed by the "rightness" of music played via SB3 etc.
If the 7250 performs better in stock form than the 7510 post mods then it is well worth having.
The Creek item could possibly be the OBH-14 DAC/Passive pre thing ?
Chris:)
maxrob200
14-05-2009, 23:23
7520 SE (Special Edition) could distinguish it from standard version
ReachtheSky
14-05-2009, 23:35
Err... I'm not sure I know what your mean? I am very happy with my TC7520 and the options that opamp swapping give me - as you know. I don't have a SB3 and don't want a separate amp... I'm confused.
I think there may have been an element of sarcasm…….and I don’t think it was directed at you!
Ade I’ll be very interested in your updated experiences with the duel OPA627’s.
Also, have you tested to see if the duel OPA627’s and THS4032 will work together at the same time without causing technical issues?
Err... I'm not sure I know what your mean? I am very happy with my TC7520 and the options that opamp swapping give me - as you know. I don't have a SB3 and don't want a separate amp... I'm confused.
Well unfortunately I'm afraid he is ironic about posts I made based on my listenings and tests in this thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2784
Especially the followings posts
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=45527&postcount=6
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=45587&postcount=12
I am really sorry about that, since I took the time to write that, hoping to contribute and give a fair idea of what I found with the TC-7520 and LM4562NA upgrade.
I really think it is a nice product, it is useful to say it, and it would also be stupid to claim everywhere that no dac can be better than this one, and that everything else is crap or too expensive.
Now, I'm still convinced it is useless to take care of a dac, if the setup room+speakers+amplifier is not optimized before.
Well that's just me, I trust my ears over anybody's advice, and everybody does what he want ...
Well unfortunately I'm afraid he is ironic about posts I made based on my listenings and tests in this thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2784
Especially the followings posts
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=45527&postcount=6
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=45587&postcount=12
I am really sorry about that, since I took the time to write that, hoping to contribute and give a fair idea of what I found with the TC-7520 and LM4562NA upgrade.
I really think it is a nice product, it is useful to say it, and it would also be stupid to claim everywhere that no dac can be better than this one, and that everything else is crap or too expensive.
Now, I'm still convinced it is useless to take care of a dac, if the setup room+speakers+amplifier is not optimized before.
Well that's just me, I trust my ears over anybody's advice, and everybody does what he want ...
Good Post.
I dont think though no-one is saying all other Dacs are crap, because plainly they are not.
The Beresford hits the "diminishing returns" spot in my opinion though, I think you'd have to spend a lot more to significantly better it.
I agree too about your general feeling about amp+speaker making a more significant difference. Speaker interaction with the room too is very significant I've found.
Just moving my speakers a couple of inches back from the wall and removing the large ammount of toe-in stopped me thinking about changing my speakers - a we bit of tweaking changed the sound a LOT.
If it sounds good to someone - it IS good.
Thats what I feel.
Once you get the amp and speaker combination sorted though..THATS when you can start differenciating betwen digital Sources.The clearer the window I guess the easier it is to tell how good/bad a Dac is? ;)
Please don't let us grumpy old lads put you off contributing!
Everyone has a right of an opinion and the fact that some may differ actually helps. We don't just want sheep do we?
Regards
Chris
Covenant
17-05-2009, 14:17
Any filthy rich people on this forum? If so take a look at this op-amp: http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/burson.shtml
Only £45 a go.
Any filthy rich people on this forum? If so take a look at this op-amp: http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/burson.shtml
Only £45 a go.
I doubt they are suitable in this dac
Covenant
17-05-2009, 18:52
It does say that its a replacement for the stock op-amp the NE5532 but you know better than me. Very much an acedemic question as I dont think anyone will be buying.
It does say that its a replacement for the stock op-amp the NE5532 but you know better than me. Very much an acedemic question as I dont think anyone will be buying.
Its the voltage requirement mate to power it:) +10v isn't enough, you want at least +/-10v (20v)
Covenant
17-05-2009, 19:13
Thats a relief, I was just reaching for my credit card.....
Thats a relief, I was just reaching for my credit card.....
You must be gutted :lolsign:
prenzlberger
17-05-2009, 19:32
I read this thread from the start through page 17 and then jumped to 72 and read on.
Ooomph, so many numbers.
But from what I gathered, for me as a complete novice, it would probably be best, to get some (how many?) LM4562NA, remove the existing pieces (which sit where?) and push in the new ones.
Correct? No soldering or mounting on carrier boards, etc?
Problem is that I have no idea what to take out. Does anyone have clear before-and-after pix and perhaps real simple instructions as to how to proceed, without ruining my brand new 7520?
This sounds like fun!
ciao for now
eckhard
Any filthy rich people on this forum? If so take a look at this op-amp: http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/burson.shtml
Only £45 a go.
That looks similar to these:
http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/pro/diy/OPA.htm
$25USD each - I have 2 of these (Earth and Moon) and they are very nice sounding. Worth the money IMHO.
I read somewhere else that this guy helped design the first gen Burson ones. Don't know how true that is.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I have not tried these in the Beresford DAC!
Covenant
18-05-2009, 07:00
I read this thread from the start through page 17 and then jumped to 72 and read on.
Ooomph, so many numbers.
But from what I gathered, for me as a complete novice, it would probably be best, to get some (how many?) LM4562NA, remove the existing pieces (which sit where?) and push in the new ones.
Correct? No soldering or mounting on carrier boards, etc?
Problem is that I have no idea what to take out. Does anyone have clear before-and-after pix and perhaps real simple instructions as to how to proceed, without ruining my brand new 7520?
This sounds like fun!
ciao for now
eckhard
The 4562 is the one if you dont want it mounted on an adapter. If you dont use headphones only buy one and replace the lefthand op-amp (controls towards you). An anti-static wrist strap is reecommended.
prenzlberger
18-05-2009, 10:11
@ Covenant
Thanks.
I use the fixed line-out for my STAX (which have their own amplification, of course) and the front-panel headphone jack for AKG701.
Furthermore, I might want a pair of powered monitors (for ambient background).
Should I get two then?
ciao for now
eckhard
StanleyB
18-05-2009, 11:02
Should I get two then?
Yes.
Stan
prenzlberger
18-05-2009, 15:04
--- that encounter with your German quasi-distributors went really well.
They live in a nice country setting some 30kms south of Berlin and I believe, they do indeed represent your products well.
I am absolutely delighted with the 7520. It has been running on a loop of Mozart-Beethoven-Stravinsky for three days (might as well make it stretch a little) and its musicality is a perfect match with my STAX.
Plus, being able to run the fixed and headphone outputs in parallel is just super.
By the way, could I run a pair of small powered monitors off it for those quiet ambient moments? If so, which output would be best?
Anyway, this has been a very pleasant experience and I'd like to thank you for your patience with my newbie questions. ;)
ciao for now
eckhard
StanleyB
18-05-2009, 16:25
By the way, could I run a pair of small powered monitors off it for those quiet ambient moments? If so, which output would be best?
Of course you can. I have used both outputs witch satisfactory results.
Stan
Attach the monitors to the variable out, with the monitor's volume all the up*, controlling the volume now with the 7520
*maybe not at the very top.. sometime pots don't sound best at their limit. But basically the monitor would be turned way up.
By the way, could I run a pair of small powered monitors off it for those quiet ambient moments? If so, which output would be best?
eckhard
prenzlberger
18-05-2009, 19:52
Thanks guys!
This forum is great!
I am so pleased that I stumbled in here and ended up with a super sounding piece of gear at a truly humane price.
ciao for now
eckhard
Finally home.
Turned on the Wolfsoned 7520 this morning.
First impressions:
Well it sounds different to the 7520 I remember. The vocals are certainly clearer. More detail. Maybe not as "rich" but I'll let it settle down for a day or two and get back to you.
BTW: Maplins said they would exchange the PSU but they don't have any in my local one at present. So I'm using the original wall wart for now.
Ok, I've had the Wolfson powered up for a day or so now.
It really is very, very good.
I've just hit one snag. On the optical I'm getting some random popping on the right channel. No idea why.
However, on the co-ax the sound is smooth, refined, detailed and very natural (and no popping). :cool:
So what are the big differences between the new Wolfson and the original chip? Was that the only component that was changed?
I'm all ears ;)
Ok, I've had the Wolfson powered up for a day or so now.
And the burning question is: Is the upgrade really worth the effort?
I will admit to being a bit sceptical and that the Wolfson DAC sounds "different" but not "better". The temptation IMO is to think the swap "must" be an improvement because it involved a lot of work, and it's not easy to revert back.
The popping is a bit of a worry though...
Ken
Aye, it was the only component changed.
Sound wise I would say that it is a much refined sound in some ways but also a more ruthless/revealing sound. You hear a lot more of the recording, as in more realistic instruments and the vocals. The transients are enhanced and the clarity is much improved.
PS: It's been a couple of weeks since I last heard the original 7520 so I guess alot of this is from memory and comparing it to the modded 7510 I have been using in the mean time.
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