Mod your Beresford 7520 [Archive] - Page 5

lingling1337

16-07-2009, 16:57

Pot - Kettle - Black ??????

I can see that you are someone whose grasp of English is such that it reinforces the old saying about Britain and the USA are two nations divided by a common language.

And your manners leave a huge amount to be desired.

Look at yourself before you post any "helpful" observations about other people.

Chris

I'm not sure why you would put "helpful" in quotation marks, as I never said or even implied that I'm helpful.

leo

16-07-2009, 17:00

Apart from generating a huge amount of hot air on his side of the pond and a lot of steam on this side, please advise how 'productive' lingling ding-a-ling has been :scratch:
Cheers,

It was actually supposed to be a quote to Mr Linglings post :doh:

Marco

16-07-2009, 17:01

I'm not sure why you would put "helpful" in quotation marks, as I never said or even implied that I'm helpful.

"lingling", allow me to 'help' you then... If you don't start to behave you're banned for a week.

Is that helpful enough? ;)

Marco.

leo

16-07-2009, 17:06

I'm not sure why you would put "helpful" in quotation marks, as I never said or even implied that I'm helpful.

Its obvious now your just here to thread crap, I can guarantee you'll be booted off here if you continue

leo

16-07-2009, 17:24

I might have missed something along the way but could someone explain where the 15v in is coming from?

Murata don't seem to offer their switching regs with 10v output, the nearest they do is 12v so to use that you'd have to increase the external supply voltage to 15v for it to work properly

trailer

16-07-2009, 17:29

i
Murata don't seem to offer their switching regs with 10v output, the nearest they do is 12v so to use that you'd have to increase the external supply voltage to 15v for it to work properly

Cheers Leo,

So it's only if you go down the Murata road then.

Isn't the new PSU 15v? :interesting:

lingling1337

16-07-2009, 17:36

Would something like this (http://www.wwbw.com/Radial-Tonebone-15V-DC-Power-Supply-152002-i1321942.wwbw?source=TWFRWXX&mr:trackingCode=77632571-0319-DE11-9BD3-0019B9C2BEFD&mr:referralID=NA) work?

DaveK

16-07-2009, 17:39

"lingling", allow me to 'help' you then... If you don't start to behave you're banned for a week.

Is that helpful enough? ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco,
You know me - always wanting to be helpful, can I be even more helpful than you and suggest that he's banned for a lifetime or even longer :) , irrespective of future behaviour - his past behaviour more than justifies this 'help' IMHO.
Your call of course.:)

Marco

16-07-2009, 17:57

He seems to be behaving now, Dave, but he'll be getting watched very carefully.

Once thing I must insist on, though, is first name and location details from him, so, lingling............

What is your proper first name and your approximate location details?

You will also need to pop into the 'Welcome' area and introduce yourself to people. Please do this A.S.A.P, thank you!

Marco.

leo

16-07-2009, 18:09

i

Cheers Leo,

So it's only if you go down the Murata road then.

Isn't the new PSU 15v? :interesting:

Yes and no

Remember theres more than one reg in the 7520

Using the three pin 5v rated Murata to replace the 5v reg in the dac section will work with the external 12v supply and probably be the safest bet (I can't guarantee 100% because I've not tried this Murata reg)

You'd need the higher rated external supply if you want to replace the 10v reg supplying the output stage with the three pin 12v rated Murata

A note of caution though, some other available external supplies can measure higher on the output than their rated at which may get the voltage a little too close to the big caps max rating on the 7520 DC input.
These are the sort of mods you have to be very careful with;)

I'd imagine Stan will give out more details for his new external supply soon as its available

trailer

16-07-2009, 18:15

Thanks again. Just been out of the loop for a week or two and catching up on the latest and greatest!

leo

16-07-2009, 18:42

Would something like this (http://www.wwbw.com/Radial-Tonebone-15V-DC-Power-Supply-152002-i1321942.wwbw?source=TWFRWXX&mr:trackingCode=77632571-0319-DE11-9BD3-0019B9C2BEFD&mr:referralID=NA) work?

That looks to be unregulated output, although its badged as 15v DC it could measure as high as 20v if used on a light load which means not suitable

If your unsure you should stick with what the manufacturer/designer of the dac recommends, its the only way to be sure what you use is suitable

NRG

16-07-2009, 20:25

"lingling", allow me to 'help' you then... If you don't start to behave you're banned for a week.

Is that helpful enough? ;)

Marco.

May I direct you to post #885 Marco....

Marco

16-07-2009, 21:13

Hi Neal,

That's outrageous. Why didn't you report it at the time? :(

Trouble is, I don't look at this part of the forum very much...

Mmm... I'll let it slide for the moment, as it doesn't seem appropriate now to act so long after the event, *but* rest assured that Mr 'lingling' is now well and truly on my radar ;)

Guys,

As we can't be everywhere, and so don't always spot things, can I take this opportunity to remind people that if anyone is subjected to abusive remarks like that to contact a member of the management team immediately so we can deal with it accordingly - cheers!

Marco.

Stratmangler

16-07-2009, 21:15

As we can't be everywhere, and so don't always spot things, can I take this opportunity to remind people that if anyone is subjected to abusive remarks like that to contact a member of the management team immediately so we can deal with it appropriately - cheers!

Marco.

Will do.

Chris:)

NRG

16-07-2009, 21:50

Spod

16-07-2009, 22:08

:offtopic: I have a crazy idea, lets use this thread to discuss mods to the 7520.

In my usual impetuous style I couldn't wait any longer and did the MLC5/6 mod this evening despite my misgivings.

Hmmmm, very early days but not looking good so far compared to the 4032. On the plus side the vocals seem a touch warmer and more human and the overall sound is maybe a bit more realistic. But on the down side the bass is boomier while, unexpectedly, there also seems to be a sibilance effect, if a track has cymbals or similar they completely dominate the music while Natalie Imbruglia appears to have developed a whistling gap in her teeth.
Worst of all, it appears to have lost the toe-tap-inducing quality of the 4032, though that may have been the fact I was listening critically rather than just relaxing and enjoying.

I'm using a thoroughly run in, but unused since the 4032 arrived, 4562, all else standard.

But it is extremely early days, wouldn't have posted about it yet but someone had to get the thread back on track. It'll have plenty of time to run in as I'm going to have to learn how to solder if I'm to return to the 4032.

ZebuTheOxen

16-07-2009, 22:35

Just thought I'd stop by.

The amp's been running for ~150 hours now, the sound has improved leaps and bounds in the past couple of days.

Running 2 x 4562NA at the moment. I have the THS4032 in it's packaging, I may pop it in if the fancy takes me, but the clarity has really started to come through. The bass has tightened up nicely :punch: and the atonality has cleared up a treat. The reverb (something the K701's do exceptionally well imo) is almost haunting on occasion, very nice!
It's picking up ridiculous amounts of detail, e.g. cracks and pops from old recordings. I was worried something was broken initially, then it occured to me that it was the recording. :)

I can't imagine the sound will change much beyond this, in which case I'll be very happy. :eek:

lingling1337

16-07-2009, 22:54

The Grand Wazoo

16-07-2009, 23:06

I think you mean tonality :)

You just can't resist having a dig at anyone can you, my friend?

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
atonal
/ayton’l/

• adjective: Music not written in any key or mode.

— DERIVATIVES atonality noun.

Remember that you ex-colonial types are only borrowing the English language for a while before you adopt Spanish. In the meantime, make an effort to understand it.

ZebuTheOxen

16-07-2009, 23:27

I haven't done the MLC mods, I think it's probably better to see how it runs in before I do. It mightn't need it.

The atonality I was describing was the 'one note bass' mentioned earlier in the thread. Bass seems much more like part of the music instead of a weapon of war now :)

lingling1337

16-07-2009, 23:49

You just can't resist having a dig at anyone can you, my friend?

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
atonal
/ayton’l/

• adjective: Music not written in any key or mode.

— DERIVATIVES atonality noun.

Remember that you ex-colonial types are only borrowing the English language for a while before you adopt Spanish. In the meantime, make an effort to understand it.

Lo siento, Sr. Wazoo. Por el explicacion de Zebu, lo entiendo en todo. Pero no necesitas ser pendejo.

The Grand Wazoo

17-07-2009, 00:03

Pero no necesitas ser pendejo.

There you go again.
If you want to call me an asshole in Spanish, that's fine. No-one would expect anything else from you.

You need to learn the difference between humour (with a 'u') and insult. Friendly banter and rudeness.

You really are a star!!

lingling1337

17-07-2009, 00:13

There you go again.
If you want to call me an asshole in Spanish, that's fine.

Lo siento, no hay problema mariconcito. Tienes pluma magnifica.

Marco

17-07-2009, 00:36

Which part of this did you not understand?

Once thing I must insist on, though, is first name and location details from him, so, lingling............

What is your proper first name and your approximate location details?

You will also need to pop into the 'Welcome' area and introduce yourself to people. Please do this A.S.A.P, thank you!

Marco.

Either you comply and do as I request, or I ban you. Your call!

Marco.

leo

17-07-2009, 00:45

Even my patience is starting to wear thin now

lingling1337

17-07-2009, 03:02

Which part of this did you not understand?

Either you comply and do as I request, or I ban you. Your call!

Marco.

Me llamo Hugh, my approximate location is the United States.

DaveK

17-07-2009, 08:54

Ding-a-ling is obviously going the extra mile to try and comply with the basic requirements of being a valued member of the forum. I vote that in future we leave him COMPLETELY alone in his own little world.
Cheers,

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 12:33

Hi Stan,

I've been doing a bit research into the Murata 7805SR-C and I've noticed that it's maximum output current is 500mA but the existing L7805CV has a maximum output current of 1.5A. Will the Murata be able to supply enough current for use in the 7520?

Thanks.

leo

17-07-2009, 12:54

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 13:15

Thanks Leo, definitely don't bog off. :lol:

From what I can make out from comparing the data sheets between the L7805CV and the 7805SR regulators, the latter should be a drop in replacement for the former. I'm going to order a 7805SR from Farnell soon and try it out, so I'll report back with my findings.

I'll then start looking into swapping the KIA7810A for a 7812SR but that's going to require a lot more research.

StanleyB

17-07-2009, 13:31

I'll then start looking into swapping the KIA7810A for a 7812SR but that's going to require a lot more research.
Borrow a variable power supply and set it on 15V. I use one of those PSU that has a LCD display and shows V and A. But don't go over 16V!! The electrolytic capacitors in the DAC are rated at 16V working. So you don't have much room to play with.

Stan

leo

17-07-2009, 13:31

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 13:34

I have a 3pin socket soldered where the regs go just temporary , it allows for quick and easy swapping out of the regs, once I'm happy the sockets are removed and the chosen regs will be soldered top the pcb as normal

The sockets look the same type of thing used on the 7520 front pcb that the audioboard slots in

Yeah, I noticed your little blue socket in your photos in the "collection of mods" thread, it's a clever idea.

Have you noticed much change to the sound quality between different regs?

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 13:41

Borrow a variable power supply and set it on 15V. I use one of those PSU that has a LCD display and shows V and A. But don't go over 16V!! The electrolytic capacitors in the DAC are rated at 16V working. So you don't have much room to play with.

Stan

Thanks Stan, I've been fancying investing in a bench power supply for a while, I'll look into it.

On the subject of voltage ratings, is the big power input cap the only component before the reg that's likely to blow over 16V?

For example, if I swapped the big cap for a 20V model, would I then be able to go over 16V input or would other components start to fry?
I'm just trying to get an idea of what the limiting factors are.

Thanks.

EDIT: Just for clarification, I'm not thinking about supplying the 7520 with more than 16V, it's just that I'm a little worried about running the input cap so close to it's rating. So if swapping this cap for a 20V model would mean that no components were likely to blow at 16V I'd look into this as a safely feature. I'm sure that finding a 10,000uF 20V cap small enough to fit in the case will be trick though.

leo

17-07-2009, 13:55

Yeah, I noticed your little blue socket in your photos in the "collection of mods" thread, it's a clever idea.

Have you noticed much change to the sound quality between different regs?

Yes, the results vary depending on the reg type used, some sound slightly different, others can sound quite a bit different, some can be worse than the standard 78** type fitted

We first see if they measure better , then try the listening test

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 13:59

Yes, the results vary depending on the reg type used, some sound slightly different, others can sound quite a bit different, some can be worse than the standard 78** type fitted

We first see if they measure better , then try the listening test

Hmm, I see. So fitting a Murata SR isn't a sure fire way to getting better sound quality. Have you tried one of the Murata SR's or anything similar yet?

Thanks.

leo

17-07-2009, 14:00

BTW you'll be struggling to find a cap higher in voltage same uf which would physically fit properly in the case
Next up from 16v would probably be 25v

StanleyB

17-07-2009, 14:03

You would also have to change all the caps on the top PCB. I got a test unit where all the caps are 25V but the top case can't close.

Stan

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 14:03

I think you're probably right, especially seen as Stan had to get his made specially.
I think I saw some 20V and 25V on Farnell in varying sizes but I didn't bother checking the specific sizes as I wanted to find out if it was worth getting a higher voltage one first.

leo

17-07-2009, 14:04

Hmm, I see. So fitting a Murata SR isn't a sure fire way to getting better sound quality. Have you tried one of the Murata SR's or anything similar yet?

Thanks.

Exactly, its suck it and see;) of course you may get a surprise .

Not tried the Murata, only alternative regs I've tried so far in this particular dac are diy discrete jobs built on vero

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 14:07

You would also have to change all the caps on the top PCB. I got a test unit where all the caps are 25V but the top case can't close.

Stan

Thanks Stan.

Hmm, so if we want to use the Murata 7812SR it's a case of either running all the caps close to their limits or swapping all the caps. I'll give that some thought, thanks.

HighFidelityGuy

17-07-2009, 14:23

Somebody mentioned a while ago that running their 7520 off 13.5V made the sound more harsh. Was this due to the type of power supply being used or the voltage?

I know we've already established that linear PSU's can't keep the big cap topped up quickly enough but I can't remember what the symptom of this was.

So was the harshness caused by a linear PSU being used?

FireFly

17-07-2009, 16:52

@HighFidelityGuy

switcher is last thing you want inside DAC :trust:

lingling1337

17-07-2009, 22:37

Anyone wanna recommend some good practice for SMD so I can get to replacing my DAC with the WM8716?

HighFidelityGuy

18-07-2009, 00:30

@HighFidelityGuy

switcher is last thing you want inside DAC :trust:
Sorry, I don't follow? :confused:

freddiecas

18-07-2009, 09:31

Sorry, I don't follow? :confused:

If I'm allowed to jump in Firefly is making an important point that class D or switching supplies operate at high frequencies, and need adequate filtering on the output to get rid of the noise and spikes that occur. Oversampling DACs also work at high frequencies and need filtering to remove the hash from the analogue outs. If the two are in the same case (or even if not) the layout and screening needs to work down beyond the microvolt level to make sure the one does not intermodulate the other and cause errors in the digital signal or noise spikes in the analogue signal. They are after all both micro radio transmitters :)

HighFidelityGuy

18-07-2009, 09:58

If I'm allowed to jump in Firefly is making an important point that class D or switching supplies operate at high frequencies, and need adequate filtering on the output to get rid of the noise and spikes that occur. Oversampling DACs also work at high frequencies and need filtering to remove the hash from the analogue outs. If the two are in the same case (or even if not) the layout and screening needs to work down beyond the microvolt level to make sure the one does not intermodulate the other and cause errors in the digital signal or noise spikes in the analogue signal. They are after all both micro radio transmitters :)

Thanks, I think I'm starting to understand. :)

So are you saying that using a switching power supply along with the Murata regulators (which have a high switching frequency) is likely to cause issues as the switching frequencies might interfere with each other?

larry

18-07-2009, 14:51

lingling1337

18-07-2009, 15:00

I recently got my Beresford TC-7520 DAC. I have burn in for about a week. I have been using it with Sennheiser HD 600 on the build in amplifier. My headphone also have about 100 hours burn in. I find the sound is slightly lacking in the low and mid part. I decided to change the two opamp to tweak it to my taste. What opamp is suitable for my problem? :)

Since the HD600 is usually said to be amp-dependent, I'd choose a powerful amplifier like the THS4032CD. I ordered mine on Ebay from Tirna Electronics. Other users with high-impedance 'phones (K701 etc) report good results with the 4032.

EDIT: Of course, you would need to buy the version with the adapter. I assume you've read this whole thread, but if you haven't it's quite worthwhile.

Gazjam

18-07-2009, 15:10

Good post lingling:)

larry

18-07-2009, 16:40

Since the HD600 is usually said to be amp-dependent, I'd choose a powerful amplifier like the THS4032CD. I ordered mine on Ebay from Tirna Electronics. Other users with high-impedance 'phones (K701 etc) report good results with the 4032.

EDIT: Of course, you would need to buy the version with the adapter. I assume you've read this whole thread, but if you haven't it's quite worthwhile.

I have read part of this thread. This is a huge thread. :) So I change both to THS4032CD?

StanleyB

18-07-2009, 17:07

I mentioned it before, and I'll mention it again:
You guys should put a week or two (100 to 200 hours) or burn in on the DAC before deciding to try other opamps. One the DAC has been through the burn in the sound will be more dynamic and far rounded.
If you start swapping opamps too early, when the DAC has been a few weeks old the pronounced effect of an earlier opamp swap might result in you diving for an earlier opamp change.

I kniw of loads of people who have invested in various opamps, and ended up having several now lying unused on their desk.

The original opamp needs time to burn in. It has good bass and the tops develop over time. It has more bass than the LM4562 for a start.

Stan

Covenant

18-07-2009, 17:18

But it doesn't have that glorious midrange that the 4562 has. You know its good when you can almost read the fingerprints when a guitar is strummed!

Could op-amps be the new valves?

StanleyB

18-07-2009, 17:34

But it doesn't have that glorious midrange that the 4562 has. You know its good when you can almost read the fingerprints when a guitar is strummed!

Are you writing about line output or headphone output? And what is the spec of the mods that you are using to base your comments on?
I am getting increasingly worried that some people are refrring to mods on top of other mods. This clouds the original starting point reference.

I myself can hear enough detail in the guitar touches with the WM8716/LM4562NA combination, and which includes the MLC5/6 mod.
I get about the same result with the PCM1716/NE5532FE combination without the MLC5/6 mod. That's with the line output.

Things get a lot more complex with headphones. The 1st and 2nd opamp types can have a dramatic effect. I like the THS4032 in the LIne and the LM4562 in the headphone for the K701. For the HD650 I prefer the LM4562 in both location. My MDR-F1 is happier with LM4562NA in LINE and NE5532FE in headphone.

Stan

Covenant

18-07-2009, 17:53

Gazjam

18-07-2009, 18:06

Stan I am talking about the 4562 in line output (I dont bother with headphones), no other modification. I would have settled for this op-amp if I didnt experience the previously mentioned problems with bass which you describe as decay. Reluctantly I have replaced it with the 4032. This has (in my system) better control of the bass but some of the qualities of the 4562 have been lost. I have almost made up my mind to go back to the 4562 and try the MLC5/6 mod. I would like a couple more people to give some feedback first though.

JErry,
read my earlier comments.

Just one guys opinion I know, but I noticed a significant clearing away of the last layers of mush, particularly over the little things, like piano decay, fret noise, that kind of thing.

Music sounds more "alive" because of these wee things, and I thought the sound was a bit flat before with the 4562's.

Do the mod. :)
Just leave one of the Caps legs on so it can be easily soldered back on.

Me?
Im sticking with the 4562's, do all that I need..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
unless theres another super amp round the corner? :)
Now, just to find someone willing to "Wolfen" my 7520.......

lingling1337

18-07-2009, 18:16

Things get a lot more complex with headphones. The 1st and 2nd opamp types can have a dramatic effect. I like the THS4032 in the LIne and the LM4562 in the headphone for the K701. For the HD650 I prefer the LM4562 in both location. My MDR-F1 is happier with LM4562NA in LINE and NE5532FE in headphone.

So you're saying that the line opamp can have an effect on what sound the built-in headphone amp produces?

StanleyB

18-07-2009, 18:17

Stan I am talking about the 4562 in line output (I dont bother with headphones),

Ah, but Larry and others are referring to headphones. That's why I pointed out that some recommendations require more than just a mention of an opamp number.

I could start dropping the TPA6120 opamp in the conversation, but then we end up needing 14V~16V supply settings, etc.....

Stan

StanleyB

18-07-2009, 18:20

So you're saying that the line opamp can have an effect on what sound the built-in headphone amp produces?
Correct.

lingling1337

18-07-2009, 18:21

Correct.

Further explanation would be welcomed.

StanleyB

18-07-2009, 18:25

Further explanation would be welcomed.
Try it for yourself. As I mentioned in my email to you once, it's not my intention to disclose secrets that my competitors are still struggling to even discover.

Stan

lingling1337

18-07-2009, 18:27

Try it for yourself. As I mentioned in my email to you once, it's not my intention to disclose secrets that my competitors are still struggling to even discover.

Stan

How the line out affects the headphone out is a "secret"? This seems to be more of a disadvantage to your design than anything, certainly not something that would be desirable to implement.

StanleyB

18-07-2009, 18:30

How the line out affects the headphone out is a "secret"? This seems to be more of a disadvantage to your design than anything, certainly not something that would be desirable to implement.
I'll leave you to ponder your opinion. I'll go and watch TV instead. The thread is yours to explain why you think it is a disadvantage. After you have finished, have a look at an amplifier circuit and count the number of different types of transistors with different specifications used in different parts of the amplifier circuit, and why it is done that way:).

Stan

lingling1337

18-07-2009, 18:35

I'll leave you to ponder your opinion. I'll go and watch TV instead. The thread is yours to explain why you think it is a disadvantage. After you have finished, have a look at an amplifier circuit and count the number of different types of transistors with different specifications used in different parts of the amplifier circuit, and why it is done that way:).

Stan

K done I've tossed out mc3, pin3a and 4a, pcm1716e (whatever that is) and that big ribbony bit in the middle. I'm hearing details like a pin dropping a mile away at a live Steely Dan recording and if I close my eyes, I can swear that I'm at a concert. Pure audio nirvana. I plan to steal your design and sell it with my mods as a totally separate entity, then introduce a new design a few months later and effectively force you out of business.

Beechwoods

18-07-2009, 18:37

Top quality. Sounds like you should be putting a business case together rather than trolling on here.

lingling1337

18-07-2009, 18:39

Top quality. Sounds like you should be putting a business case together rather than trolling on here.

I'll send you a unit for beta testing immediately.

Marco

18-07-2009, 19:44

Bye bye, troll :wave:

I plan to steal your design and sell it with my mods as a totally separate entity, then introduce a new design a few months later and effectively force you out of business.

Idiot. You'd be lucky if you could 'force' a shit out of your unfeasibly large arse, never mind anything else.

Enjoy your fantasy land!

Marco.

Dougr33

18-07-2009, 19:47

I'm going to miss him!! I think for a thirteen-year-old he had a lot of potential!

leo

18-07-2009, 19:48

K done I've tossed out mc3, pin3a and 4a, pcm1716e (whatever that is) and that big ribbony bit in the middle. I'm hearing details like a pin dropping a mile away at a live Steely Dan recording and if I close my eyes, I can swear that I'm at a concert. Pure audio nirvana. I plan to steal your design and sell it with my mods as a totally separate entity, then introduce a new design a few months later and effectively force you out of business.

:lol: I'm sure a man of Stans intelligence isn't going to even rise to that;)

Dougr33

18-07-2009, 19:48

The good thing is that no name change could hide that personality!

freddiecas

18-07-2009, 19:54

thank heavens for that! he really spoilt the enjoyment of a very interesting thread.

Beechwoods

18-07-2009, 19:55

Can I hear a very loud collective sigh of relief?

leo

18-07-2009, 19:57

How the line out affects the headphone out is a "secret"? This seems to be more of a disadvantage to your design than anything, certainly not something that would be desirable to implement.

What crap, obviously have no idea how things work:lolsign:

I don't blame Stan for not explaining this, why the hell would the headphone amp be directly on the dacs output???

Oh well, we carry on as normal chaps:cool:

leo

18-07-2009, 20:05

Bye bye, troll :wave:

Idiot. You'd be lucky if you could 'force' a shit out of your unfeasibly large arse, never mind anything else.

Enjoy your fantasy land!

Marco.

Go out for the day only to come home and find somebody's been a naughty boy again

If this wasn't such a big thread we could have had some fun with Mr Lingling but it seems right not to allow folks like this spoil such a active thread

Zjazd

18-07-2009, 20:14

Beechwoods

18-07-2009, 20:24

Hi Zjazd... welcome to AOS. When you get the chance can you stop by the Welcome Forum (http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=15) and say a little about yourself, where you're from and what music you like? It helps us help you when we know a little about you! Cheers :)

DaveK

18-07-2009, 20:30

Bye bye, troll :wave:

Idiot. You'd be lucky if you could 'force' a shit out of your unfeasibly large arse, never mind anything else.

Enjoy your fantasy land!

Marco.

No Marco,
I hate to argue with you but that is exactly what he has been doing with every post he's made. Shame, I'm going to miss the resident village idiot (thank God :) ). I hate to say "I told you so", but I told you so !!! :ner::ner::ner::ner: The only pity is that it wasn't done ages ago IMHO.
Now we can get back to arguing amongst ourselves, like civilised nutters :lol: .
Cheers,

DaveK

18-07-2009, 20:39

The good thing is that no name change could hide that personality!

True Doug, but that shouldn't stop us from expecting it and keeping a 'weather eye' open for the pillock. I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him but I wouldn't mind the opportunity, preferably off the top of a very large cliff.:lol: (normally I'm a very meek and mild pacifist, honest !! :) )
Cheers, best move Marco's made in ages IMHO.

Gazjam

18-07-2009, 20:45

Not to give the truncheon any more airtime, but why the hell was he on here in the first place?

To be fair, he had a couple of chances.
Good riddance, he defo seemed to be trying to get a rise out of Stan.

Hmmm, not that old chestnut?

DaveK

18-07-2009, 20:55

....... but why the hell was he on here in the first place?
Good riddance, ........

Here Here, and so say all of us - well, at least me and a few others ! :lol:
I don't usually gloat, honest, but there are exceptions to every rule.
Cheers,

HighFidelityGuy

18-07-2009, 21:31

Greeting, ive been following this thread for quite long, currently running my beresford with 4562NA and MLC5/6 mod @ 12v and i love the sound, only problem is sybylization (is that right? "s" being very extended ) As i see next step would be to upgrade PSU. What you guys think about VAC 1 PSU from http://www.ciaudio.com/ for Beresford TC 7520?

Hi Zjazd, welcome to AOS.
I really like the look of CIAudio's products and I fancy trying some in the future. As for using their PSU with the 7520, that's something that can't really be judged without actually trying it. Stan has said that not many PSU types work well with the 7520 due to it's "unusual" and very clever internal PSU stage. You'd have to find out more details about the inner workings of the VAC1 to have any idea as to whether it was suitable, for example if it was a switching PSU, or linear etc.

Also, CIAudio state that the VAC1 is not intended for use with products from other manufacturers, so I doubt they would honour the warranty if it got damaged by using it with the 7520.

So to be honest I'd steer clear and save your money. Stan's bringing out a new PSU soon, so I'd wait and see what that's like. You can be sure Stan's will be 100% compatible. :)

Spod

19-07-2009, 09:40

Greeting, ive been following this thread for quite long, currently running my beresford with 4562NA and MLC5/6 mod @ 12v and i love the sound, only problem is sybylization (is that right? "s" being very extended ) As i see next step would be to upgrade PSU. What you guys think about VAC 1 PSU from http://www.ciaudio.com/ for Beresford TC 7520?Hi Zjazd, exactly the problem I'm having. Did you try the 4032 before making the mod? It had a slightly more clinical sound but no sibilance issue and I found it a more exciting listen.

I have almost made up my mind to go back to the 4562 and try the MLC5/6 mod. I would like a couple more people to give some feedback first though.After a few days I can report the bass settled down pretty quickly, no sign of the monotone issues or boominess that were there with the caps in place, plus vocals seem a bit more natural and there's possibly more detail than with the 4032. BUT the biggest problem is with sibilance/top end, its absolutely horrendous on my system with some tracks. Plus there seems less excitement, I haven't tapped my toes once, but I have nodded off while listening - in the middle of the afternoon, never a good sign.

If I could solder I'd return to the 4032 immediately, but as things stand I'll have to give this combination a lengthy trial while I swot up, practice, gird my loins then give up and persuade someone at work to do it for me.
If your system's at all bright I'd have to recommend against the mod on my (admittedly still very early days) observations.

Marco

19-07-2009, 10:00

Hi Gaz,

Not to give the truncheon any more airtime, but why the hell was he on here in the first place?

I think he was a 'straggler' from the earlier Head-Fi shenanigans with Stan and wanted to come here for a bit of 'aggro'. Well we don't do that shit here.

Anyway, chaps, that's enough about ding-a-ling, so let's get back on-topic :)

Marco.

StanleyB

19-07-2009, 10:05

Spod

19-07-2009, 11:54

What would be a generally acceptable price for the PCB without opamps, but including shipping? At the moment I make it £40 plus VAT.I'm flinching but if that's what its costs then so be it, the important thing for me is that its available in case I muck up. I'd be hesitant to spend that much just to make it easy to experiment with various mods, ... says the person who wasted not that much less on a Maplin PSU:doh:. Well, in that context its not that bad.

But is it really that easy to swap out for us technically impaireds? I had a look when I was doing the MLC mod, and the board looked gunked to the USB socket as well as plugged into the PCB beneath.

Milo

19-07-2009, 12:54

Hi
I ordered the 4562na and ready to install them. Did you also remove the MLC5/6 or you kept them in place??Do you know if the sound improve by removing them or it's just a subtle change?Thx Milo

HighFidelityGuy

19-07-2009, 13:11

I hope to be able to offer the opamp PCB for sale very soon. That would make it easier to try out various opamp options far more conveniently.

What would be a generally acceptable price for the PCB without opamps, but including shipping? At the moment I make it £40 plus VAT.

Stan

That's excellent news! £30-40 would be acceptable to me. I see it as being similar to buying a decent soldering iron or other such tools to aid future tinkering, so that price falls in line with that. If you could supply it cheaper than £30 then that would be great and I would image a lot more people would buy one (or two) but I know stuff like this is not cheap to make in small quantities.

Gazjam

19-07-2009, 13:12

Hi MIlo,

I found it made a significant (not subtle) improvement. There was a clarity and better soundstaging/ more realism to the sound that wasnt there before.

Its worth doing in my opinion. :)

StanleyB

19-07-2009, 13:25

I'm flinching but if that's what its costs then so be it, the important thing for me is that its available in case I muck up.
I have to agree. That's too expensive. Not a good idea then to offer it for sale. To get the price down to a fiver I would have to buy the components in bulk of 10K or more, and make 10K of the boards:scratch:. Well, it was the thought that count:).

Stan

Gazjam

19-07-2009, 13:47

Or charge (or sub-contract) £x.xx for the Mods and get GUARANTEED mega business.

(in addition to the Caiman's limited run of course..)

:)

DaveK

19-07-2009, 14:04

but if that's what its costs then so be it, the important thing for me is that its available in case I muck up.

I have to agree. That's too expensive. Not a good idea then to offer it for sale. To get the price down to a fiver I would have to buy the components in bulk of 10K or more, and make 10K of the boards:scratch:. Well, it was the thought that count:).
Stan

Hi Stan,
With respect I think that you might be focussing on the wrong bit of Spod's post - I would refer you to the bit above that I have quoted. HighFidelityGuy has also posted his support (and I alsoi might be interested, depending on what changes I perceive when I put 4562s in my 7520).
Why kick it into touch so early when the ones that have responded have not been really negative, perhaps a little disappointed. If you can make money at £40 a throw making small numbers why turn business away? At least await some more feedback before you make your mind up.
Cheers,

DaveK

19-07-2009, 14:35

Hi Milo,
Welcome to Aos - hope you find your stay long, enjoyable and interesting. Can we ask you to introduce yourself in the Welcome area with a post giving your real name (optional but preferred - we're very friendly on here and like to address each other by our first name) - huge apologies if you were christened Milo !! :doh::doh:.
If you can give a brief description of where in the USA you are (it's a big area and we have quite a few members scattered around the states, and Canada), what kit/set up you have and what your musical tastes are, together with pics posted in the Gallery area if possible, it would be greatly appreciated.
Once again, welcome to AoS.
Cheers,

leo

19-07-2009, 14:46

but I know stuff like this is not cheap to make in small quantities.

Exactly! He'd have to be selling loads of the things really, having the pcb's pro etched alone tends not be cheap in small quantities

StanleyB

19-07-2009, 17:43

If you can make money at £40 a throw making small numbers why turn business away?
It's not the making money part. It's the breaking even bit. Mr TAX and VAT man wants a cut off the price of the item, and another cut off the profit. Then our friend Paypal wants a cut off the transaction. With so many hands in the till, it is impossible to sell at cost. One still has to fund the cuts taken, no matter what...

Stan

DaveK

19-07-2009, 18:10

Hi Stan,
Sorry, I may not have made myself clear :doh: . When I said "If you can make money at it" I took it that your £40.00 price tag included a little something for you for your trouble of designing and producing it as well as paying off your obligations to the non-productive parasite monkeys that government tends to put on the backs of manufacturing industry in particular.:steam::steam:
If it aint good for you it ain't good !! :)
Cheers

freddiecas

20-07-2009, 15:41

sorry to be off topic but Stan looks in here often. Yesterday could not get through to the website at all, hijacked to a different site. Today the latest seems to immediately switch to a previous version without the mods page. Posted just in case it's not just Stan updating things but something else suspicious.

StanleyB

20-07-2009, 16:17

I have been trying out the addition of the Caiman related pages in the MENU. I might have restored a previous menu script by accident. I'll look into that. I assume you tried www.homehifi.co.uk ?

Stan

freddiecas

20-07-2009, 17:10

yes.

trailer

20-07-2009, 17:47

The homehifi seems alright to me at present.

Are you sure you haven't been looking at any dodgy websites? (headfi or somewhere?)

freddiecas

20-07-2009, 18:04

as I explained before the site with the mods link appears for only a second then switches back to the older site without the mods page.

Spod

20-07-2009, 20:27

Haven't seen too many (any?) reports of observations on here of what happens if you go from the MLC5/6 back to the 4032, rather than the other way so I may as well share my experience.

Despite the DAC running almost constantly since I did the mod last week, the sibilance and treble wasn't getting any better, it had actually got to the stage where I started hating the sound. I'd switched off tone defeat on the amp and turned down treble but it didn't help.

So, a visit to Maplins and this evening contained a large chunk of soldering in the guts of an old transistor radio and a singing Santa Claus to learn the basics.
And then the real thing. MLC5 was easy - plenty of space around it, MLC6 is an absolute utter pain, made a real balls up of it, its now soldered to outer shell of the neighbouring resistor, it looks horrendous, can't be healthy. Trembling hands and a cheapo iron that didn't really insulate my fingers from its heat didn't help.
Feared the worse, but put the 4032 back in, plugged it all back in and..... love it. I have my DAC back. Sibilance is gone, bass is more impressive, the wall of tinniness is conquered.
Its pretty clear going in this direction that you're losing detail and in hindsight I can't help but feel that was a major player in the sibilance/treble problems. I have to conclude that the 4562/MLC5/MLC6 is musically more pure, clearer and audiophile.
But the 4032 is so much more fun and suited to my kit and tastes.

And now, finally I get to have breakfast, its nearly bed-time after all!:doh:

Covenant

20-07-2009, 21:45

DaveK

20-07-2009, 22:04

So we have Gaz firmly in the 4562+MLC5/6 camp and Spod in the 4032 camp.:scratch:
Anyone else with an opinion?
At the moment I am inclined to leave the 4032 in place. After all the Caiman cant be far away now.

H Guys,
You all know (possibly :lol: ) that I like to be constructive but sometimes it just ain't possible. When I gave Stan brief details of my listening habits (50/50 headphones and speakers) and of my headphones (Senn HD280) he advised that LM4562NAs in BOTH, with no mention of MLC5/6.
Hope this helps but I guess it probably won't :doh: :confused: .
Cheers,

Spod

20-07-2009, 22:33

So we have Gaz firmly in the 4562+MLC5/6 camp and Spod in the 4032 camp.:scratch:
Anyone else with an opinion?
At the moment I am inclined to leave the 4032 in place. After all the Caiman cant be far away now.The music you listen to is massively relevant here. For classical I'm pretty sure I'd have prefered the 4562+ mod for the extra detail. But for the female vocalists and 70s pop/punk I listen to, it was just too screechy etc.
But if you're going to get the Caiman anyway and, unlike twitchy me, you have the patience to wait then that's probably the best thing to do.

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 01:45

And here's the wierd thing,

I have eclectic tastes and listen to heavy charging rock AND classical and I find the 4562 not in any way sibilant, overtly detailed or harsh at all.

I reckon system synergy comes into play a lot here, with (like anything hifi related I guess...?) any component being system dependant.

Might be significant that I've always found my AE109 speakers a bit dark and shut in at low levels till I fitted the 4562s.
Perhaps the extra detail is of benefit in my system as opposed to others which are already quite treble heavy?

maxrob200

21-07-2009, 04:18

The 4562 in my 7520 sounds great, not bright yet plenty of detail. There is greater soundstage width and instrument separation compared to the original op-amps. Bass is tight and punchy but I would like a bit more richness overall so the mlc5/6 mod may just do the trick. I'll try it when I get the chance

Spod

21-07-2009, 07:00

I reckon system synergy comes into play a lot here, with (like anything hifi related I guess...?) any component being system dependant.
Might be significant that I've always found my AE109 speakers a bit dark and shut in at low levels till I fitted the 4562s.
Perhaps the extra detail is of benefit in my system as opposed to others which are already quite treble heavy?
Agreed - my amp and speakers together are pretty bright (or as I prefer to think of it "light and fresh") which was necessary when I was feeding in the CD players direct. The 7520 with the 4562+ mods just took it over the edge. Way over the edge!

leo

21-07-2009, 07:40

You can see why NE5532 is a good choice in a stock unit;)

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 08:20

You can see why NE5532 is a good choice in a stock unit;)
It surprises me that so many people rush out to upgrade to the LM4562NA without any idea why. My US reseller charges U$75 for the operation:scratch:.
Anyhow, I have a couple of LM4562NA in stock so anyone who is thinking of buying a TC-7520 and doesn't know how to fit a set of opamps can have it done for an extra £20 plus VAT.

Stan

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 08:28

After all the Caiman cant be far away now.
I might be able to send out the first orders on Thursday once I have confirmed who has paid already.

Stan

chrism

21-07-2009, 08:38

as I explained before the site with the mods link appears for only a second then switches back to the older site without the mods page.

I am having the same problem. The new page shows very briefly then defaults to an earlier site page.

Regards

Chris

leo

21-07-2009, 08:44

It surprises me that so many people rush out to upgrade to the LM4562NA without any idea why. My US reseller charges U$75 for the operation:scratch:.
Anyhow, I have a couple of LM4562NA in stock so anyone who is thinking of buying a TC-7520 and doesn't know how to fit a set of opamps can have it done for an extra £20 plus VAT.

Stan

I think its the sort of posts they read on forums which say upgrading the op-amp makes a huge difference
Rather than wait for a unit to run in with its supplied parts they just want what they think is best tbh, of course best in one persons system may not be the best in another
we both know the WM8716 makes a difference too and most on here still have the PCM1716 fitted:)

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 08:57

I am having the same problem. The new page shows very briefly then defaults to an earlier site page.

I updated the link for those of you who are not on a European recognized domain when accessing my sites.

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 09:01

I think its the sort of posts they read on forums which say upgrading the op-amp makes a huge difference
Rather than wait for a unit to run in with its supplied parts they just want what they think is best tbh, of course best in one persons system may not be the best in another
we both know the WM8716 makes a difference too and most on here still have the PCM1716 fitted:)
I hope that the Caiman owners don't make that mistake as well. It's a pity that only those with a Maplin PSU set at 13.8 V will be able to enjoy all the extra benefits, until the Caiman PSU comes out at the end of the year. I use a variable power supply from my lab to dial in various voltage levels and then listen to the result. 13.5 to 15V is the sweet spot with the LM4562 and THS4032.

Stan

Covenant

21-07-2009, 09:45

we both know the WM8716 makes a difference too and most on here still have the PCM1716 fitted.

Because 99% of us are too scared to attempt it!

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 09:57

we both know the WM8716 makes a difference too and most on here still have the PCM1716 fitted.

Because 99% of us are too scared to attempt it!

Agreed Jerry, outta my league I gotta say.

(Wish I could but I know I'd lunch my Dac ):doh:

chrism

21-07-2009, 10:45

I updated the link for those of you who are not on a European recognized domain when accessing my sites.

Hi Stan,

Strange but I did not have any probs until the last few days so could it be a mod to far!

Regards

Chris

DaveK

21-07-2009, 10:47

we both know the WM8716 makes a difference too and most on here still have the PCM1716 fitted.

Because 99% of us are too scared to attempt it!

Hi Jerry and Gary,
I wonder if Tirna would do it for us (me included) as a sub-con job?
Cheers,

Covenant

21-07-2009, 11:07

Its worth asking them but I still fancy the Caiman as Stan will have sprinkled magic fairy dust on it. :)

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 11:23

Hi Jerry and Gary,
I wonder if Tirna would do it for us (me included) as a sub-con job?
Cheers,

Dave,
You do the honours? :)

DaveK

21-07-2009, 11:33

Its worth asking them but I still fancy the Caiman as Stan will have sprinkled magic fairy dust on it.

All right for them as can afford it - Ive only just bought my 7520 !! :steam: (sans fairy dust but avec new PSU :) )

Dave,
You do the honours? :)

I thought that might be the response - I almost volunteered :) !
Daft question I know, but what exactly is involved - what do I ask them to do? -- remove what and replace with WM8716?
Cheers,

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 11:54

but I still fancy the Caiman as Stan will have sprinkled magic fairy dust on it. :)
You mean Caiman specific mods that aren't of much or any benefit to the PCM1716 based TC-7520?
Well, I was listening to some previously hidden instruments in the upper treble region and wondered how come I didn't notice those before. Then it dawned on me that the WM8716 has an extra 10 dB of SNR, which is perhaps why I couldn't pick it out clearly enough before. Mind you, I had to use headphones to notice them. My speakers couldn't pick them up amongst all the ambient noise. The one side effect is that I can now also hear SNR problems that are embedded in some recordings.

Stan

ZebuTheOxen

21-07-2009, 12:52

This is the kind of sound I'm looking for!

Are there any recommended modifications to the circuitry besides swapping out the WM8716 directly?

As a quick update, I was listening to an acoustic recording by a friend over the weekend and decided to give the THS4032 a spin. Popped it into the line socket, with the 4562NA still in the HPA stage.
The sound hasn't improved significantly, but there is a better sense of detail coming through. On busy pieces it sounds somewhat muddy, relatively hard to pick out instruments and individual components of the music, though I expect it's still running in.

Covenant

21-07-2009, 13:12

As a quick update, I was listening to an acoustic recording by a friend over the weekend and decided to give the THS4032 a spin. Popped it into the line socket, with the 4562NA still in the HPA stage.
The sound hasn't improved significantly, but there is a better sense of detail coming through. On busy pieces it sounds somewhat muddy, relatively hard to pick out instruments and individual components of the music, though I expect it's still running in.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because you are using some awful speakers? :) I dont experience muddy sounds with the 4032-quite the opposite.

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 13:21

The THS4032 is best suited for use via the DAC's variable output to a power amp. An integrated amp with all its extra capacitive stages would put a damper on the THS4032 low frequency response.

Covenant

21-07-2009, 14:10

You mean Caiman specific mods that aren't of much or any benefit to the PCM1716 based TC-7520?
Well, I was listening to some previously hidden instruments in the upper treble region and wondered how come I didn't notice those before. Then it dawned on me that the WM8716 has an extra 10 dB of SNR, which is perhaps why I couldn't pick it out clearly enough before. Mind you, I had to use headphones to notice them. My speakers couldn't pick them up amongst all the ambient noise. The one side effect is that I can now also hear SNR problems that are embedded in some recordings.

Stan

I listen to a lot of internet radio (that circuit which improves low bitrate transmissions deserves an award)-do you think it may sound worse because of background noise?
Just to be clear is there anything different about the Caiman other than the following:
1. Improved dac chipset
2. 4562 op-amps to line and headphone
3. MLC5/6 removed.
4. Improved power supply (at a later date)

ZebuTheOxen

21-07-2009, 14:25

I was using the K701's, all the speakers are packed up at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, the soundstage is better with the 4032's without a shadow of a doubt, the location of instruments etc. but it was harder to pick out individual components and follow them.

Though to keep it in context, I can happily listen to either the 2 x 4562s or the 4032 + 4562 combo all day, it's much of a muchness.

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 15:00

I listen to a lot of internet radio (that circuit which improves low bitrate transmissions deserves an award)-do you think it may sound worse because of background noise?
Just to be clear is there anything different about the Caiman other than the following:
1. Improved dac chipset
2. 4562 op-amps to line and headphone
3. MLC5/6 removed.
4. Improved power supply (at a later date)

Hi Jerry,
from an earlier post of mine.

--------------------------------------------------------
Just working out how far my 7520 with 4562 and Mc5/6 mod if far removed from the Cayman!

Not by much. Except for the 192KHz 64X oversampling WM8716 and the Caiman logo you are about there already.

Stan
-----------------------------------------------

Covenant

21-07-2009, 15:09

Thanks Gaz. Its getting rather big this thread.

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 15:16

I listen to a lot of internet radio (that circuit which improves low bitrate transmissions deserves an award)-do you think it may sound worse because of background noise?

Not that I paid attention, but I shall check.

Just to be clear is there anything different about the Caiman other than the following:
1. Improved dac chipset
2. 4562 op-amps to line and headphone
3. MLC5/6 removed.
4. Improved power supply (at a later date)
I would have to check my notes and bill of material. I tend to adjust component values in line with any updated information relayed back to me.

Stan

trailer

21-07-2009, 16:51

In summary would folk say that the MLC5/6 removal is op-amp dependent or not?

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 19:09

trailer

21-07-2009, 19:23

Trailer,
I've a handful of opamps borrowed from another member, and in a couple of weeks ill be sitting down to do a proper comparison between them all.

I've the MLC 5/6 mod with my 4562 so the information might be useful?

Bogged down with work stuff ATM, so will do it in a couple of weeks.

Cheers,

I'm running the 7520 Wolfsoned with two AD826's at present and didn't know whether the extra mods would be appropriate.

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 19:28

Cheers,

I'm running the 7520 Wolfsoned with two AD826's at present and didn't know whether the extra mods would be appropriate.

No probs, will post something useful hopefully!

*You find the AD826's to be better than 4562/4032 in your system?

* How do you rate the Wolfson DAC compared to the standard fitted to the 7520. Night and Day or....more subtle?
(I'm particularly interested in the bass on the Wolfson compared to the standard one - ta)

Thanks.

trailer

21-07-2009, 19:35

No probs, will post something useful hopefully!

*You find the AD826's to be better than 4562/4032 in your system?

* How do you rate the Wolfson DAC compared to the standard fitted to the 7520. Night and Day or....?

Thanks.

Yes, very much night and day. The reason I went for the AD826's was that all the usual suspect op-amps I had
from the pre Wolfsoned 7520 were WAY too bright. The AD826's calmed it down no end. One of the "issues" I have with the Wolfson mod is the extra everything. The detail etc is very acceptable of course! I guess this
might have something to do with the extra S/N that Stan has mentioned. Forget all your op-amp preferences
with the Wolfsoned 7520. It's a case of start again!

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 19:44

Hey, thanks for that.

Can you remember (and this is a big ask :)) about the 4562 compared to the 4032 thru the Wolfson?

Unless you have NO life chances are you wont remember, be good if you did though!

trailer

21-07-2009, 19:49

I did do a post on here somewhere going through the op-amps post Wolfson somewhere on here. Needle/haystack?

apmusson

21-07-2009, 20:10

Yes I would be very interested too. I have settled on the ths4032 in the std tc7520 after trying quite a few combinations, but am interested in the extra detail and the need for opamp reassessment that you are picking up in the wolfsoned 7520.

Cheers

Ade

Hey, thanks for that.

Can you remember (and this is a big ask :)) about the 4562 compared to the 4032 thru the Wolfson?

Unless you have NO life chances are you wont remember, be good if you did though!

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 20:12

I did do a post on here somewhere going through the op-amps post Wolfson somewhere on here. Needle/haystack?

Tell me about it! :)

I'll have a rummage.

Ta.

apmusson

21-07-2009, 20:14

I found your original post.... for info.

Right as promised some findings:

I thought I'd have a listen to the 7520 with the 4032's as that is what was in it pre-Wolfson. Initially it is impressive but after a while it got a bit tiresome and not really good for late night listening. I had a thought that maybe I could try the old op-amp rolling trick again.
This morning I decided to give the op-amps ago:

LT1364: Less tiresome as the 4032's but with the same amount of detail.
4562's: Smoother with the same amount of detail and I thought these will do.
However, I still had a couple of 49720's to hand. I popped these in and they were even better. Smooth, detailed and VERY natural sounding. Not digital at all, very analogue.

I've been listening to Ryan Adams 29 CD (an old favourite) this afternoon with the 49720's and it really is a pleasure. I'll let them warm up again for couple of days and hopefully they'll get even better.

I'm guessing that the extra resolution(?) of the Wolfson with the 4032's was just a bit too much out there for long listening periods?

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 20:21

Thanks for that Ampusson, interesting stuff.

Seems theres a real need for reasessing the best OpAmp with the Wolfson?

DaveK

21-07-2009, 20:45

Oh, woe is me, I'm even more confused now !!:scratch::mental::steam: - and here's me thinking that it was a straight choice between 4032s and 4562s and now: -

"However, I still had a couple of 49720's to hand. I popped these in and they were even better. Smooth, detailed and VERY natural sounding. Not digital at all, very analogue."

I think I'm going for a long lie down until there is some sort of concensus, or maybe I'll ignore the 4972s and stick with Stan's views expressed to different people - I really need that lie down.
Good Night :)

StanleyB

21-07-2009, 20:47

Seems there's a real need for reassessing the best OpAmp with the Wolfson?
Not sure about a real need. I fitted the LM4562NA, which is the best choice IMHO. The LM4562HA is superior, but also more than double the price.

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 20:51

Oh, woe is me, I'm even more confused now !!:scratch::mental::steam: - and here's me thinking that it was a straight choice between 4032s and 4562s and now: -

I think I'm going for a long lie down until there is some sort of concensus, or maybe I'll ignore the 4972s and stick with Stan's views expressed to different people - I really need that lie down.
Good Night :)

I've observed the OpAmps to be system dependant, with sounding good for one not neccessarily good for another.

I'd stick with what Stan says ;)

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 20:51

Not sure about a real need. I fitted the LM4562NA, which is the best choice IMHO. The LM4562HA is superior, but also more than double the price.

And I'll stick with your opinion Stan, at least as a Baseline ;)

DaveK

21-07-2009, 20:54

I'd stick with what Stan says ;)

Snap!! - seen his very last post? - the one posted immediately prior to yours?
Cheers,

Gazjam

21-07-2009, 20:55

Yip, sounds good to me.

trailer

21-07-2009, 21:16

apmusson

21-07-2009, 21:26

Its good to talk. I've learned so much from this thread and your views have always been 'on the money' imho. Its gonna be fun when the caiman is released tho.... one opamp is fab in the 7520, but not so good in the 7520 'Caiman'. Perhaps we ought to split the thread clearly at this point?

Ade

Sorry guys if I put the cat amongst the pigeons. I was just going on my preferences/system.
Someone else who did the Wolfosn mod at the time (can't remember who) recommended the AD826's so I thought I'd give them a go. They suited my taste.

As ever your choice is what counts.

roscoeiii

22-07-2009, 05:55

Hi folks,

This question was raised a while back by the dearly departed lingling. But never got a reply:

Will there be a US version of the eventual Caiman power supply?

Another question that I haven't seen addressed (although in a thread this long I could well have missed the post):

What are the sonic differences that come from the Caiman's WM8716? The lower SNR was mentioned but what other changes in the sound could I expect from the use of this DAC chip?

p.s. I will do my darnedest to restore the reputation of the US after all the damage lingling did to international relations. And let me start by saying how appreciative I am that forums like this exist. Many thanks to all of you who have posted such valuable contributions. Can't wait to get a Beresford so that I can start repaying you in kind. Now off I go to fret over the 7520 vs. the Caiman...

And now let's resume the :gig:

StanleyB

22-07-2009, 06:41

If the US distributor orders the Caiman PSU when it is available then you should be able to buy it in the US.

It is possible to modify a stock TC-7520 into a Caiman. Details are on the modification page on my site. Cost wise it should be about the same if you do it yourself or if you buy a ready made Caiman.

Stan

Gazjam

22-07-2009, 09:11

StanleyB

22-07-2009, 09:47

I was there last August on Holiday, loved the river Taxi and up the top of the Sears Tower. I couldn't get over how flat Chicago is, from the Sears at night all lit up it looks like a giant circuit board!
The Sears Tower is no more. The name has been changed recently.

Gazjam

22-07-2009, 10:38

Yeah heard that Stan.

They renamed it to honour the 25th Aniversary of the film Die Hard.
Dunno if thats an unfounded runour or what.......? :)

sponge

22-07-2009, 11:34

Sorry guys if I put the cat amongst the pigeons. I was just going on my preferences/system.
Someone else who did the Wolfosn mod at the time (can't remember who) recommended the AD826's so I thought I'd give them a go. They suited my taste.

As ever your choice is what counts.

I think it could have been me who recommended the AD826.

My take on the Opamp and DAC upgrades is this:

1. The Wolfson WM8716 improves the 7520 significantly.

2. Whatever Opamp you choose to improve a standard 7520 will also improve a WM8716 equipped 7520 by a similar margin.

3. The MLC5/6 mod is worth doing, but the effects are subtle.

4. Choice of Opamp is a personal thing - Once you are happy with the sound - Stick with it.

For what it's worth, I am using a LM4562NA in the Line-out socket and an AD826 in the Headphone socket. But I listen via headphones exclusively, both from the built in headamp and external amplifiers. What works for me may not be to everyones taste.
I am so happy with this combination, I am considering removing the Opamp sockets and soldering the Opamps directly to the PCB.

Hope this is some help - Ken

roscoeiii

22-07-2009, 12:37

Chicago the circuit board huh? I'd say that in general it's a good circuit, but there are also some mods that could make it so much better.:)

ZebuTheOxen

22-07-2009, 15:38

What opamp would you recommend with Chicago?

I find the sound very airy, even windy.

Edit: On a more serious note, how large are the legs on the WM8176? I've only got a 1mm tip soldering iron, I get the feeling this isn't fine enough.

lupo_yellow

22-07-2009, 16:29

Hi,

Do you think it is worth doing the MLC8 & MLC9 mod?

Will I notice much difference with my HD650's ?

I am pleased with my LM4562NA upgrade that has made a difference :)

( I think sometimes i spend too much time Modding and not listening to music :lol: )

HighFidelityGuy

22-07-2009, 17:07

On a more serious note, how large are the legs on the WM8176? I've only got a 1mm tip soldering iron, I get the feeling this isn't fine enough.

I think you mean the WM8716 :). According to the spec sheet the legs are about 0.3mm wide and the gap between the legs is about 0.3mm. So they're stupidly tiny.

I'm in the same boat as you, I have a 1mm tip soldering iron and I fancy swapping to the WM8716 but what with the size of the legs and the cramped position it's located in I think the likelihood of me knackering it up are quite high. Stan mentioned he was trying to negotiate a deal with an electronics expert to provide a mod service, hopefully Stan will have more details about this soon.

sponge

22-07-2009, 17:57

Edit: On a more serious note, how large are the legs on the WM8176? I've only got a 1mm tip soldering iron, I get the feeling this isn't fine enough.

OK, Stan and Leo have covered the swapping of the DAC in another thread, and having tackled the job myself I can confirm that it is quite a tricky operation.

The IC's legs are 0.6mm between centres, so it's pretty tight. However, the soldering iron bit I used is 1.5mm and it was OK. Problem with using a very fine bit is that it wont hold much solder and loses it's tinning quickly.

Best advice I can give is to get yourself a flux pen and don't be afraid to use it. Flux is the magic sauce which will prevent solder tracking between pins. Also be careful with the PCB pads, they lift very easily when heated - But pins 6,12, 17 and 22 are not used, A couple of these lifted on mine.

Unless you have eyes like a shite hawk, you will also need plenty light and magnification...

Good luck - Ken

trailer

23-07-2009, 16:18

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290333641971&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123

?

StanleyB

23-07-2009, 16:31

What you need is something like this:
PSU (http://cgi.ebay.com/TEKPOWER-HY1803D-DC-POWER-SUPPLY-VARIABLE-0-18V-0-3A_W0QQitemZ250454971909QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item3a50479605&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|293%3A1| 294%3A50)
I use something similar, set at 14V.

Stan

HighFidelityGuy

23-07-2009, 20:36

I just stumbled across this great tutorial on surface mount soldering with a regular soldering iron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NN7UGWYmBY

The same group also have a few other good tutorials on soldering.

ZebuTheOxen

24-07-2009, 09:45

As a quick update, I'm finding the THS4032 on the line output with a 4562NA on the HPA a very 'thorough' sound. Unfortunately some parts of the sound are recessed, notably guitars in busy passages.

On my original amp these would come through clear as a bell, very easy to follow etc. but this most certainly isn't true with the 4032/4562 setup. At some points I had to strain to make them out in passages where I knew they were. The grunt / growl of distortion on certain guitar effects isn't as forward as it should be in the music.

Drums are very prominent and correct sounding with this setup, the bass is very very taut and sounds excellent. This dominance of bass might be masking the guitars. Any suggestions for some mid-range emphasis mods?

StanleyB

24-07-2009, 10:06

On my original amp these would come through clear as a bell, very easy to follow etc. but this most certainly isn't true with the 4032/4562 setup. At some points I had to strain to make them out in passages where I knew they were. The grunt / growl of distortion on certain guitar effects isn't as forward as it should be in the music.

If you are using your original amp as a reference, and that's the sound you are after, then maybe you are better off sticking to the amp:). On many audio devices the bass and tops are several decibels down on the 0dB level, which then produces an unnatural extrusion of the midrange. When you then start listening to a different piece of equipment without the drooping bass or treble response, the sudden repositioning of the midrange within the audio spectrum gain level can come as a shock. If the midrange is too forward, you kill the soundstage.

Stan

ZebuTheOxen

24-07-2009, 13:05

I had a feeling you were going to say that!

The fidelity on the 7520 is so much better.

I guess I'll have to listen to all the music instead of just the guitars now :lolsign:

StanleyB

24-07-2009, 13:26

I guess I'll have to listen to all the music instead of just the guitars now
My test tracks for guitar interaction with vocals and other instruments
:
Jimi Hendrix - All Along the Watchtower
Michael Jackson feat. Eddie Van Halen - Beat It
Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody
Van Halen - Eruption
Santana - Europa
Eagles - Hotel California
Metallica - One
Steely Dan - Reelin' in the Years
Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven
Jimi Hendrix - Star-Spangled Banner
Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing
Joe Satriani - Surfing With the Alien
Jimi Hendrix - Voodoo Child
Frank Zappa - Zoot Allures

Stratmangler

24-07-2009, 16:37

My test tracks for guitar interaction with vocals and other instruments
:
Jimi Hendrix - All Along the Watchtower
Michael Jackson feat. Eddie Van Halen - Beat It
Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody
Van Halen - Eruption
Santana - Europa
Eagles - Hotel California
Metallica - One
Steely Dan - Reelin' in the Years
Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven
Jimi Hendrix - Star-Spangled Banner
Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing
Joe Satriani - Surfing With the Alien
Jimi Hendrix - Voodoo Child
Frank Zappa - Zoot Allures

Wot, no Deep Purple ?

Can't argue with the rest of the list though !

Chris:)

PS. I'd recommend Highway Star - Blackmore's multi-tracked harmony, interval shifting solo is a real teaser !

trailer

24-07-2009, 16:44

That list makes me feel quite young.

Stratmangler

24-07-2009, 17:04

That list makes me feel quite young.

What's that Sonny ? They don't write 'em like they used to !:lol:

Chris:lolsign:

StanleyB

24-07-2009, 17:18

All my Deep Purple records are on vinyl. I use 'Child in Time' to test my TT set up;). My Jimi Hendrix vinyls got nicked from the flat of an ex:steam:. Some of it was even unopened.

The reason I pick so much of the old stuff is mainly due to the fact that just about all of them were made with analogue equipment. The recordings were dropped onto analogue tapes, and then years later digitally converted for pressing onto CD. A lot of valuable information is preserved within that recording and transfer process that I feel is missing in the purely digitally recorded and manipulated recent material.

Stan

ZebuTheOxen

03-08-2009, 17:28

Dropped in just to say I've been swapping around opamps and have a couple of things to bring to the table.

I'm using the stock 7520 with no mods beyond the different opamps (2 x 4032CD, 2 x 5532P, 2 x 4562NA).

If you flick back to my last post on the previous page, I wasn't entirely happy with the sound of guitars I was getting, and couldn't place why.
At the time I was using the 4562NA in the HPA and the 4032CD in the line out socket. I did a bit of trawling and picked up that the opamps influence the sound of one another. Presumably depending on which output would mean one opamp was dominant.

So I swapped the 4562NA around with the 4032CD.
Big difference in sound, a lot more slam, more detail in busy sections, this was more of what I was looking for. Unfortunately all of the problems with the 4032 already mentioned in this thread have surfaced and it seems like I need to find another opamp. (Are the 4032's problems related to it's design or the mounting with the resistor?)

Given my fairly limited knowledge of what is available, and what I can see from the different specifications on the opamps I have; It needs to have a slew rate of at least 20V/µS, (5532 has 10V, 4562 has 20V, and the 4032CD has 100V.) , a good amount of bandwidth (50mhz or more?), and available in 8-pin DIP.

I've been looking at the AD826 which has 35mhz bandwidth (Is that enough? More = better? Does it raise the noise floor?) and 250V/µS, which seems quite desirable.
If there's an opamp which has lots of detail in the mid and treble, coupling that think the 5532 would be a great solution I think.
Any thoughts?

ZebuTheOxen

04-08-2009, 21:21

Just a quick update;
I'm looking at the AD8032ANZ, AD8032BNZ and the LT1632CN8.

Just want to check none of these will explode / kill my amp if I test them out.

Cheers, Tom.

StanleyB

04-08-2009, 21:34

Let us know how you get on, so that others can benefit from your experience.

Stan

ZebuTheOxen

04-08-2009, 21:50

Thanks :lolsign:

larry

05-08-2009, 02:01

Hi,

I own a 7520 and have install 2 tirna ths 4032. it have distortion in the sound? izzit because the chip is not burn in yet or i need to remove the mc5 / 6 etc?

therockst4r

05-08-2009, 03:27

Larry, I am not sure exactly what your problem is. Could you please clarify what exactly your problem is?

larry

05-08-2009, 04:00

Hi,

I have 2 THS4032 installed on my TC 7520. I brought is on eBay from tirna electronic. I am using the build in headphone amp to drive HD600. When lisenting at low volume at 9 o'clock. There is noticetable distortin in the sound. It seem to be unstable to me. But when listening at a higher volume. let's say 11 o'clock. The distorion is minimise but the distortion is still there but less noticetable. I try using toslink(desktop pc) and USB(netbook) both have the same problem, meaning my source is ok. So what is the real problem I have?

StanleyB

05-08-2009, 08:24

I happen to have a few THS4032 opamps and decided to test each one of them.
I get a nasty sounding break up of the sound on one, but it is OK on the others. So I reckon that one of my THS4032 is duff.

I would suggest that you try one THS4032 at a time and see if both of them produce the same distortion. That would tell you if one is dodgy.

STan

larry

05-08-2009, 10:06

Hi,

I have try installed 4032 on the line and 5532 on head and listen sound normal. Follow by 5532 on line and 4032 on head and it sound normal too.
I do this test for the 2 4032 chip. when even I put both together the distortion come.

StanleyB

05-08-2009, 10:37

In that case I would use only one THS4032/ Get a LM4562NA to partner it. I got a few, so you can PM me if you can't buy just one piece off eBay.
I personally think two of the THS4032 in the DAC is over powering. On my system it sounds far too cramped. That's why I use the LM4562 to balance it out.

Stan

larry

05-08-2009, 11:03

Hi Stan,

Oh I see, I have a few question. Hope it is not too much =D

1) If I choose to install a 4562, How does 4562 on line and 4032 on head compare to 4032 on line and 4562 on head in your opinion?

2) I have read that installing a 4562 is better to have the surrounding cap remove, what is the different with the surrounding cap remove or not?

3) If you recommend to put 4562 on the line with cap remove, then the MLC5/6 is to be remove?

4) If I have 4562 on the head, which cap do I actually remove?

I saw two 4562 at different price. So which is the correct one?
http://sg.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=WGMVNH50DPMOUCWNBBSLY4Q?N=0&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=LM4562NA&Ntx=&suggestions=false&_requestid=577440

StanleyB

05-08-2009, 11:24

There are no hard and fast rules. But the THS4032 needs the caps next to it on the PCB, unless you want a lot of RF break through.

As for the price of the LM4562NA. If it is £5 or less, then you can't complain.

STan

therockst4r

05-08-2009, 14:37

Would it be possible to replace the DAC chip with a AK4396?

StanleyB

05-08-2009, 14:40

No, but why would you want to go down market with the DAC chip?

therockst4r

05-08-2009, 14:41

One of my friends recommended that DAC chip, so I just thought I'd ask.

Gints

05-08-2009, 16:06

therockst4r

05-08-2009, 16:21

Out of curiosity, if each opamp is for a different output, then how does having two of the same opamps installed change the sound vs having 1 of them installed?

Gints

05-08-2009, 17:59

The THS4032 is a very good line driver, so it will handle even hard to control interconnecting leads between DAC and amplifier with a lot of control.

I have about 10 metres long cable from dac to amplifier. Is THS4032 would be better for line output in this case then LM4562HA?

Gints

05-08-2009, 18:03

But the THS4032 needs the caps next to it on the PCB, unless you want a lot of RF break through.
STan

What was a reason for cap on THS4032 from Tirna. That was not same as caps on the PCB? And put next to the chip only because those on PCB are too far away?

larry

06-08-2009, 12:59

After some troubleshooting, I heard distortion from the same spot of a song. Can I say that my source is the culprit? 2 4032 sound very detail. It really reveal my song.

StanleyB

06-08-2009, 13:47

My DACs are clinical, so distortion in the source material is going to rear its ugly head.

therockst4r

07-08-2009, 21:38

Has anyone tried to put a discrete opamp in a Beresford?

AudioFile808

08-08-2009, 01:31

hey guys, i've been away for a while...so any news on the Caiman and when it can be expecting to be released?

Stan, would it be possible for the Caiman be sent out on loan for a review? i'd really like to test it out.

therockst4r

08-08-2009, 05:18

StanleyB

08-08-2009, 06:49

Has anyone tried to put a discrete opamp in a Beresford?
I did. I tried a set of Burson discrete opamps. The results were:
1. It didn't work
2. The case couldn't close

Added to that, the distortion figures for the U$100 Burson discrete opamps are 0.001%, compared to the U$5 LM4562 0.00003%.

If you are however hell bent on going discrete, even though the sound will be more distorted than the LM4562, let us know how you get on.

Stan

Gazjam

08-08-2009, 09:54

in other words....

trust the Designer to know a thing or two about a thing or two... ;)

therockst4r

08-08-2009, 14:05

I did. I tried a set of Burson discrete opamps. The results were:
1. It didn't work
2. The case couldn't close

Added to that, the distortion figures for the U$100 Burson discrete opamps are 0.001%, compared to the U$5 LM4562 0.00003%.

If you are however hell bent on going discrete, even though the sound will be more distorted than the LM4562, let us know how you get on.

Stan

I am not that interested in the Burson due to costs, but im curious as to why it didn't work. Any ideas? I would be more likely to try the Moon discrete opamp.

StanleyB

08-08-2009, 14:28

I am not that interested in the Burson due to costs, but im curious as to why it didn't work. Any ideas? I would be more likely to try the Moon discrete opamp.
It didn't work because the minimum operating voltage required is far more than the available operating voltage in the TC-7520 and the Caiman.

The distortion figures quoted for the more expensive Moon discrete opamp is 0.0003%. That is still ten times more than the LM4562.

I don't know which opams are used in each and every DAC out there, but I doubt that there are many that have a lower distortion figure than the Caiman. And the ones that do are no doubt uber expensive.

therockst4r

08-08-2009, 14:37

It didn't work because the minimum operating voltage required is far more than the available operating voltage in the TC-7520 and the Caiman.

The distortion figures quoted for the more expensive Moon discrete opamp is 0.0003%. That is still ten times more than the LM4562.

I don't know which opams are used in each and every DAC out there, but I doubt that there are many that have a lower distortion figure than the Caiman. And the ones that do are no doubt uber expensive.
The Moon seems to be much cheaper than the Burson, unless I misread something, and its operating voltage should be low enough to work in the Caiman. An engineer told me that anything under .001% is inaudible anyway, so I am not too concerned. The Moon is specifically designed for high fidelity audio, whereas the LM4562 is not, so it would be interesting to try it.

StanleyB

08-08-2009, 14:49

The Moon seems to be much cheaper than the Burson, unless I misread something, and its operating voltage should be low enough to work in the Caiman.
The operating voltage of the Moon is +/- 9V minimum. That is higher than the maximum the Caiman can handle.

The Moon is specifically designed for high fidelity audio, whereas the LM4562 is not, so it would be interesting to try it.
Moon only mentions on their website that their opamp uses audiophile grade resistors. It does not mention the same about the transistors they use.

The LM4562 is specifically referred to as a high performance audio opamp.

leo

08-08-2009, 15:15

Interesting pdf here on op-amp distortion, theres quite a few tested including those discrete Audio-GD jobs http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_audio/ic_opamps/index.html

therockst4r

08-08-2009, 18:01

The operating voltage of the Moon is +/- 9V minimum. That is higher than the maximum the Caiman can handle.

Moon only mentions on their website that their opamp uses audiophile grade resistors. It does not mention the same about the transistors they use.

The LM4562 is specifically referred to as a high performance audio opamp.
What is the maximum the caiman can handle? I thought the Caiman could handle 10V. Their website is kinda lacking in details I must admit, so I cannot comment on their transistors. As for the LM4562, it is not a bad opamp, its just more geared to integrated devices like CD Players and such. Discrete opamps are more geared to Hi-Fi use. I have never done a direct comparison, but I know people who swear by them, so I would be interested in doing a head to head comparison.

leo

08-08-2009, 19:09

The Caiman is +10v but as Stan already mentioned the Moon requires +/-9v ( +9v to ground and -9v to ground) total is 18v

Only other thing is run it from a seperate supply

prenzlberger

08-08-2009, 20:29

You guys are amazing!!
When I last read this thread ... before getting the LM4562s for my 7520 ... we were at 78 pages, and now look! ;)

I am truly happy with my purchases. The 7520 is everything I hoped for, driving my STAX Lamdas just wonderfully.

What I also love is the fact that this small unit can fullfil so many tasks.

For the STAX, which have their own amplifcation, it serves as AD converter. For my AKG701s (which I use as "guest phones"), it is a fabulous amp, which runs in parallel to the STAX. Nifty!
And with a pair of M-Audio powered speakers, the 7520 even handles the task of background music.

Few products have been as thoroughly satisfying as this small unit.

Carry on folks, I'm perfectly happy, but it I'll keep reading the thread, because who knows, perhaps the modding bug bites again!

Gazjam

08-08-2009, 21:56

The Moon seems to be much cheaper than the Burson, unless I misread something, and its operating voltage should be low enough to work in the Caiman. An engineer told me that anything under .001% is inaudible anyway, so I am not too concerned. The Moon is specifically designed for high fidelity audio, whereas the LM4562 is not, so it would be interesting to try it.

Your talking to a couple of engineers here too.
One even designed the Dac. ;)

Its a balance really, and Stan's approach to it is really hitting the mark in my opinion - hence the large following his products have.

I've a Tirna modified 7520 (thanks again guys) and I had another spooky listening moment earlier tonight...

LastFm was on in the background playing random favourite tracks of mine, (my Dacs still running in as I've not had the time since I got it to listen to it much till recently) and I was pottering about the house when I stopped what I was doing and had go into the living room.

A live recording of Bill Hailey "Rock around the clock" from the 1950's no less...and the recording acoustic was spooky.
VERY realistic "life size" images playing along the front wall of my room.

I guess its like what someone said earlier about being ruthlessly revealing of the recording?
It works for good recordings as well Im glad to say. :)

I call it the "Fleet Foxes" effect!
That is one SPOOKY album, with close miked harmonies 2 inches from your nose...

Anyway,
One thing Ive noticed the Caiman doing as it ran in was helping the speakers disappear more and more.
Everythngs rock solid now, sound just comes from the wall now, and occasionally from the sides of the room too
.
Stan how DID you do manage that????

:gig:

therockst4r

09-08-2009, 04:36

The Caiman is +10v but as Stan already mentioned the Moon requires +/-9v ( +9v to ground and -9v to ground) total is 18v

Only other thing is run it from a seperate supply
Right, my mistake I thought I read that the Caiman was +/-10v. It would be interesting to try it with a separate power supply, but probably not worth it.

larry

11-08-2009, 14:58

Hi all,

I guess I have found a solution for people having distortion when using 7520 as DAC/AMP with 2 THS4032 installed and using computer as source(mainly foobar) or when playback on a low volume. I am using foobar with WASAPI connect to 7520 through optical cable. I have a song keep having distortion at a specify part. What I do is that I lower the foobar volume to the lowest. I turn the volume knot on 7520 to around 3 o'clock for my HD 600. Then I slowly increase the foobar volume. Increase to a volume where distortion alway comes in. Guess what, The distortion is gone. When I do the other way round. I max out foobar volume and increase the voulme from 7520 knot the distortion come back. I also just an IEM during this test. The distortion really gone alot. I still heard a bit due to IEM. hope this help.

ZebuTheOxen

13-08-2009, 10:49

Hi guys, just thought I'd drop in again after my last post and report back.

None of the other opamps I tested were worth their salt.

I cut the MCL 5 / 6 caps and put the 4562NA's back in and this basically rendered everything else a waste of time.
No amount of fiddling with other opamps had anywhere near the same result.

Cut the MCL 5 / 6 with some wire cutters, put in dual 4562NA's, sorted.

:gig:

Looking at upgrading the DAC but I think my soldering skills still leave something to be desired. :)

Gazjam

13-08-2009, 11:34

Zebu,
can I recommend Tirna Electronics to do your Dac mod for you?

I was running the 4562 with Ml5/6 mod and had my Dac chip upgraded to the Wolfsen by them.
Quick turnaround good price.

The improvement will surprise you.

ZebuTheOxen

13-08-2009, 14:28

I'll get in contact with them later on tonight, £40 sounds reasonable.

If I fall off my chair because of it, I'm holding you responsible :)

Gazjam

13-08-2009, 18:02

I'll get in contact with them later on tonight, £40 sounds reasonable.

If I fall off my chair because of it, I'm holding you responsible :)

If Im wrong I'll eat my hat. (probably) :)

marscay

22-08-2009, 18:49

How many have messed around with opamp swaps on the Caiman?

After some heavy listening throughout the week i started to get the feeling i had lost some emotion or 'fun factor' with the stock Caiman versus my 7520+TH4032.

The WM8716 is a good upgrade but i just don't enjoy the 4562NA with my gear, on the Caiman nor the 7520. Although more thansparent than the 5532 (which sounds ok in a Caiman actually) i just find the 4562NA too sterile and a tad bright partnered with the 8716.

Enter the fabled TH4032 on the Caiman which was my preference opamp on my 7520, my initial response was WOW but after testing a few albums as others have found out it is just too strong on the upper freqs and gets tiring very quickly ....but amazing resolution for acoustic tracks.

I have settled on the LT1364 for now, much less fatiguing than the 4032 but with around the same amount of resolution ...i don't know if it's a keeper but it is sounding very good and this particular opamp doesn't have many hours on it so it may actually improve some yet.

Would like to try the AD827 next as these sound like they be the perfect opamp for me going by Trailers findings. The 8716 is really nice though, even the NE5532 with it sounds quite detailed but it is just a little muddy i've found.

trailer

22-08-2009, 19:02

AD826

Do a search for it on here and you'll get a few posts.

marscay

22-08-2009, 19:41

AD826

Do a search for it on here and you'll get a few posts.

Cheers mate.

You happen to play around with a OPA2107 in the Caiman also?

trailer

22-08-2009, 20:10

Cheers mate.

You happen to play around with a OPA2107 in the Caiman also?

Can't remember (!) but I don't think so.

sum1

23-08-2009, 12:33

Just curious, what spec data should i look for in the opamp datasheet to know if an opamp will work in a stable manner the 7520? i'm guessing supply voltage is one of them.

marscay

23-08-2009, 12:46

I will order a couple of AD826 & OPA2107 and see how they fare in the Caiman, i have a feeling they will both suit me just perfectly - detailed yet slightly laidback is what i am craving with my system.

Codifus

26-08-2009, 13:03

Covenant

26-08-2009, 19:07

Try the OPA2132 and enjoy:)

CD

How exactly do you use this David-single or both replaced, additional capacitor, MC5/6 removed?

StanleyB

26-08-2009, 21:39

Isn't the OPA2132 FET input?

marscay

26-08-2009, 22:54

Codifus

26-08-2009, 23:47

How exactly do you use this David-single or both replaced, additional capacitor, MC5/6 removed?

I have the OPA2132 in the line-out side. ML5/6 caps clipped. The caps are still there, but the circuit is not complete, so to speak. I'm not sure which chip is on the headphone side anymore, you need magnifying glasses to read these tiny chips, but I either have the LM4562NA or the original NE5532 chip on the headphone side.

I am totally loving it. Very tuneful, lots of rhythm, deep bass. These are my speaker system observations, mind you, not headphones. I've actually never used the headphone side.

Stan, yes it is an FET opamp and it sounds really nice in your 7520.

The LM4562NA I tried before had the advantage of being cleaner as in less distortion for a given volume, but the OPA2132 is so full bodied, rhythmic, and really likes to dance:)

CD

Covenant

27-08-2009, 07:32

Thanks David. Its not an expensive op-amp so I think I will give it a try. :)

marscay

27-08-2009, 12:38

The LM4562NA I tried before had the advantage of being cleaner as in less distortion for a given volume, but the OPA2132 is so full bodied, rhythmic, and really likes to dance:)

Do i take this to mean that you find the OPA2132 is a bit brighter than the 4562NA? or just more mid-range and bass energy which is where i found the 4562NA a bit lacking with my system.

Codifus

27-08-2009, 13:19

Do i take this to mean that you find the OPA2132 is a bit brighter than the 4562NA? or just more mid-range and bass energy which is where i found the 4562NA a bit lacking with my system.

Comparing the OPA2132 to the LM4562NA, the 4562 was brighter. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the LM4562NA was nearly perfect. From 50Hz and up that chip sounded great. In my system, however, I found the bass wanting. Where did the deep bass go? It was there, of course, but not strong enough to really enjoy. My feet wanted to tap but they just weren't feeling it.:confused:

Enter the OPA2132. Better balance. Deep, strong bass. A rhythmic tunefullness that I hadn't noticed before. Something about this chip with percussion and timing. Very intoxicating. Could be a touch warm, though. The top end is a bit more subdued when compared to the 4562. Others have described this chip as "laid back" and I guess that would apply to an extent.

Oh, and now I recall the logic with my switching chips in the headphone socket. With the OPA2132 in the line-out and the 4562 in the headphone socket, the system was definitely a bit too warm. I remembered reading on this forum that the chips in each socket have a influence on the chip in the other socket, so I decided to put the NE5532 chip in the headphone socket to hopefully balance out the sound. Initially I found that NE5532 chip had a tendency to have a "cold" mid-range, and hopefully that tendency would reign in the "warmth" of the OP2132 in the line out socket.

It seems to have worked but I must admitt that it could be in my head as this kind of change is very subtle.

Neither chip is perfect, but the OPA2132 advantages handily outweigh its faults in my setup. Bottom line is that I really, really, like listening to it. I turn on my system and listen for hours again.:smoking:

CD

larry

27-08-2009, 16:25

Hi AoS members,

My current op amp in my 7520 are 4032(line) 49720(hp). I do not have the cap remove on the hp. What do I gain if I remove it? as in the sound will be warmer or better range etc. And one last thing, Did I put this two op amp in the correct way?

Covenant

27-08-2009, 18:36

Thats it David-I have ordered two OPA2132's. I will hold you personally accountable if I have wasted $8 :lol:

marscay

27-08-2009, 21:16

Neither chip is perfect, but the OPA2132 advantages handily outweigh its faults in my setup. Bottom line is that I really, really, like listening to it. I turn on my system and listen for hours again.:smoking:

CD

Sounds like a similar opamp to the AD826 & OPA2107.

I had exactly the same issue with LM4562NA on the Caiman (& also the 7520) ....mid-range and bass lull. Still decent but as you say doesn't get the foot tapping.

I may try a 2132 yet but this stash of opamps is really building up :)

Codifus

28-08-2009, 00:00

marscay

28-08-2009, 08:18

When will this opamp swapping ever end?:lol:

CD

Just after we reach that point of satisfaction, yes never hehe.

ZebuTheOxen

28-08-2009, 08:37

Sounds like a similar opamp to the AD826 & OPA2107.

I had exactly the same issue with LM4562NA on the Caiman (& also the 7520) ....mid-range and bass lull. Still decent but as you say doesn't get the foot tapping.

I may try a 2132 yet but this stash of opamps is really building up :)
Ahh that's great! I thought it was just me...

Going from the 4562NA + MCL5/6 + PCM1716 to the WM8716 DAC, a lot of the frequency ranges sound a bit skew-if compared to previously (On my K701s). Guitars sound ridiculously recessed and harmonic distortion seems more prominent than it was before (Something the K701s are bad with anyway).
I hooked the DAC into my speakers and found the opposite, that everything was better represented than before.

Since I bought this DAC primarily as a headphone amp, this is slightly puzzling.
I've been running it in for about ~140 hours so far with the new DAC, and I'm not sure if my ears are used to it yet. Though from previous experience, when it sounds 'right' it hits you right between the ears straight away.

StanleyB

28-08-2009, 08:56

Going from the 4562NA + MCL5/6 + PCM1716 to the WM8716 DAC, a lot of the frequency ranges sound a bit skew-if compared to previously (On my K701s). Guitars sound ridiculously recessed and harmonic distortion seems more prominent than it was before (Something the K701s are bad with anyway).
I hooked the DAC into my speakers and found the opposite, that everything was better represented than before.

Since I bought this DAC primarily as a headphone amp, this is slightly puzzling.

Solder back the MLC5/6 and do a listening test again.

The 4562NA has been chosen for the Caiman for more than one reason. So don't dispose of them. You might need to dig them up later again...

NOTE OF WARNING: Many opamps are static sensitive! They should be handled with care and avoid touching the pins. I have had a couple of THS4032 fail on me from static breakdown faults.

Stan

Gazjam

28-08-2009, 10:32

Thats it David-I have ordered two OPA2132's. I will hold you personally accountable if I have wasted $8 :lol:

Hey Jerry,
Could you let me know please where you got your 2132's from?
I'm having trouvle sourcing them in the UK.

Ta,
(My Google-Fu must be weak, I have the flu) :)

Covenant

28-08-2009, 10:49

Hi Gaz,
I just used Ebay, an American site. They send them first class for buttons and I dont mind waiting. Just put the reference in on Uk Ebay and it should appear at the bottom of the page.
Have you passed on Mike's cables yet?
Jerry

Gazjam

28-08-2009, 11:57

Thanks for that.

Yeah the other Jerry should have had them for a couple of days now :)

ZebuTheOxen

28-08-2009, 14:34

Solder back the MLC5/6 and do a listening test again.

The 4562NA has been chosen for the Caiman for more than one reason. So don't dispose of them. You might need to dig them up later again...

Stan
Wouldn't dream of throwing opamps away. :)

I'll give that a spin. If it's back to being muddy again, perhaps using smaller caps would help?
The slew on the 4562s is quite low and I imagine that would be of benefit as a result.

Maximum

31-08-2009, 12:30

I'm thinking of sending my 7520 off to Tirna for the dac change. I notice they have a page up now on the website...

http://www.tirnaelectronics.co.uk/services/Audio.shtml

I am slightly confused by the Caiman spec comment at the bottom though. Are they referring to the MLC5/6 mod?

Covenant

31-08-2009, 13:12

I dont think that comment is anything to do with the MLC 5/6 mod. Perhaps Stan could enlighten us here. A 7520 with Wolfson Dac and LM4562 is not up to Caiman spec according to Tirna.
Stan would you mind confirming what differences remain between the two?

StanleyB

31-08-2009, 13:38

Stan would you mind confirming what differences remain between the two?
I have to protect the integrity of the Caiman and the investment of the owners.

Stan

Covenant

31-08-2009, 14:46

I have to protect the integrity of the Caiman and the investment of the owners.

Stan

Fair enough, I am happy with my Wolfson jobby so its back to trying a few more op-amps. :gig:

StanleyB

31-08-2009, 16:14

Try the Caiman bass mod. I am now using 47K, and with very good results.

Alexxus

31-08-2009, 20:37

Men! Listen up! :lol:

No, seriously, I now need a bit of input from yas. Now. I got my 7520 modded with a 4032 on the line out and a 4562 on the headphone section (4032 was giving me too much of everything, so I rolled back on that one). It sounds so damn good on both of them, I just can't see how it can get any better.

Having said that, you guys on this thread must have experienced this before, on your first change, didn't ya? But you went on and made more changes anyway, didn't ya? So, then. I got meself a Wolfson chipset, but I keep looking at it and wondering how can it make things better.

So what I'm asking is this: you guys that have gone for this one already, is this worth it? Is it even marginally better than the PCM1716? Marginally better is good enough for me, any more than that and I'll be delirious. But I need you guys to tell me I'm not gonna ruin a perfectly good thing. I am not, am I?

Come on guys, now's the time to show you're mates and fess up. Should I go do it?

lovejoy

01-09-2009, 10:21

Hi Eddie,
It's not marginally better. It's a significant upgrade.

I was perfectly happy with my 7510, then my 7520 showed me what my 7510 wasn't doing, then the Wolfson DAC change had my jaw hitting the floor.

I think it's one of those cases where ignorance is bliss. If you're loving your 7520 and are just enjoying music from it, then don't fix what isn't broken. If on the other hand (at it sounds like this is the case) your curiosity won't be satisfied until you've heard a Wolfson modded 7520, then you really won't be disappointed. Just make sure you're either well versed in surface mount chip changes, or you know someone who is.