View Full Version : BP 'Ultimate Diesel' and oil/fuel-enhancing treatments for cars
The Black Adder
03-10-2013, 16:57
Sorry to hear that, Joe. When I spoke with my local Mercedes dealership, they were pretty non-committal with regard to the efficacy of fuel additives (I doubt that they would risk endorsing them), although they did recommend the use of BP Ultimate. Like Martin, I only use a Cetane booster occasionally, so I doubt it will cause any long-term problems :)
Marco.
Should be fine matey... Occasional is fine, cleans out the pipes so to speak too. It was the only instance I heard of this happening though, they said Redex was not recommended. He stopped using it after that but the car is still running well so it must have been a one off... who knows, it could have just been a dodgy housing from the off.
I'm not sure how often my mate used it either. Something tells me that he used it on every fill up... I'll find out. lol, bonkers if that was the case.
Anyway that aside, I think the Ultimate Diesel is superb and worth the bit extra. :)
anthonyTD
03-10-2013, 17:18
The Audi is gone now, but yes i did experiment with different fuels in it, and it seemed to go best on the Texaco 97 octane,[petrol of course] I have a BMW 330d M sport now, which i haven't really had chance to experiment much with different diesel types yet...
A...
Do you put any of the 'fancy stuff' in your Audi? :)
Marco.
Ah, nice one! How did you find it compared with the TT? I think that's the same one as Martin's... :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-10-2013, 17:55
Totally different beasts, but both were/are great cars in their own right, the BMW is more practical as far as family are concerned, which is more important to me now...:)
A...
Ah, nice one! How do you find that compared with the TT? I think that's the same one as Martin's... :)
Marco.
Totally different beasts, but both were/are great cars in their own right, the BMW is more practical as far as family are concerned, which is more important to me now...:)
Lol - indeed! ;)
Marco.
Different cars, Marco. Mine's a 335d with twin sequential turbos.
Ah, I see... I knew that the number was similar! :D
Anyway, when you get a chance, give the Nitro+ a go, just for curiosity, as I'd value your opinion on how it performs in your car :)
Marco.
Hi Neal,
Yup, sorry. My boo-boo! :doh:
However, I did correctly refer to Cetane, when discussing enhancers. Regarding the bit I've highlighted, are you 100% sure, and if so, do you have any links confirming that fact (and exactly what the Cetane rating is, compared with that of BP Ultimate diesel, as that is my current benchmark)?
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Marco.
Anyway, when you get a chance, give the Nitro+ a go, just for curiosity, as I'd value your opinion on how it performs in your car
Will do. The Cetane rating of standard branded diesel is 48 and that of BP Ultimate is 55. I cannot find anywhere the Cetane rating for Shell Nitro+. Anyone?
I've been looking for a PDF I saw a while back that came from Shell showing the Cetane rating but for the life of me can't find it. I do vaguely recall that VPower Diesel Cetane was not as high as you think ;) There's more to Diesel than just Cetane rating! 55 is a practical limit and I think biodiesel is the only type that can have a higher rating.
The Cetane rating of standard branded diesel is 48 and that of BP Ultimate is 55. I cannot find anywhere the Cetane rating for Shell Nitro+. Anyone?
Precisely - and that's the *key* issue here!
My thinking (and perhaps wrongly) was in making the comparison with the high-octane petrol fuels, where (correct me if I'm wrong) Shell V-Power Nitro+ unleaded, along with Tesco Momentum unleaded, currently have the highest available RON value of 99 - higher than that of BP Ultimate unleaded, which I think is 98?
Therefore, I assumed that the same would apply (in terms of Cetane value) with Shell V-Power Nitro+ diesel versus BP Ultimate diesel.
I stand to be corrected, though! :)
Marco.
I've been looking for a PDF I saw a while back that came from Shell showing the Cetane rating but for the life of me can't find it. I do vaguely recall that VPower Diesel Cetane was not as high as you think ;) There's more to Diesel than just Cetane rating!
I completely agree, and those other factors may explain why I'm currently getting the best results ever with Shell V-Power Nitro+ diesel :)
However, if we can nail down the exact Cetane figures for the current BP and Shell diesel varieties, it would add some futher balance to the discussion.
Marco.
Different cars, Marco. Mine's a 335d with twin sequential turbos.
If you don't mind me asking whats your average MPG ,
Paul
Marco,
As long as the oil is Mercedes approved and complies with the correct standards then there isn't much in it!. The specifications go way beyond the viscosity and can have a significant effect on how the oil maintains it's properties over the course of it's service life so it's important to ensure that it meets or exceeds all specifications that Mercedes stipulate for your specific model.
Having said all of that, I used to use Motul 300V Competition 15W-50 in my tuned turbo cars - it is very good stuff and won't break down during the hardest use. I previously used Castrol RS 10W-60, but you could visually tell that it had lost a lot of viscosity after a couple of track days, and needed to be replaced. That car did run about 50% more boost than standard though, so heat was always going to be an issue, as were notorious bottom end lubrication issues..
Regards,
Alex
If you don't mind me asking whats your average MPG
I get about 34mpg of motorway and mixed driving. it might not sound good for a diesel, but it's brilliant compared with my old 540i (17mpg), which my car comprehensively outperforms, or the M3 (21mpg) which it gets close to.
Yup, the problem with 5 Series Beemers, much like E-Class (and above) Mercs, is that they're too bloody heavy to be sporty! It's fine if you want to wallow around in a big (albeit luxury) bus, but otherwise.... :rolleyes: It's why I will likely never own anything 'fancier' than a CLS-class Merc.
With cars, I like classy and sporty, which is why I bought what I did (together with the fact it had to be an estate car, due to essential practicalities), and my C320 Avantgarde SE CDI certainly does both worlds nicely enough for me! :)
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3246/wffp.jpg
Marco.
P.S Martin, we need to see a piccy of your 'baby'. As far as I know, you've not posted one so far :cool:
Marco,
As long as the oil is Mercedes approved and complies with the correct standards then there isn't much in it!. The specifications go way beyond the viscosity and can have a significant effect on how the oil maintains it's properties over the course of it's service life so it's important to ensure that it meets or exceeds all specifications that Mercedes stipulate for your specific model.
Having said all of that, I used to use Motul 300V Competition 15W-50 in my tuned turbo cars - it is very good stuff and won't break down during the hardest use. I previously used Castrol RS 10W-60, but you could visually tell that it had lost a lot of viscosity after a couple of track days, and needed to be replaced. That car did run about 50% more boost than standard though, so heat was always going to be an issue, as were notorious bottom end lubrication issues..
Interesting. It's certainly the case that you need a different kind of oil for that type of driving, which unfortunately I've never done - sound like fun, though! :)
With regard to the bit in blue (above), yup. Mercedes recommend both Castrol Edge fully synthetic oil and Shell Helix Ultra Extra (FS). Having used the former now in my car for nearly a year, and having liked it a lot, on the next oil change, I intend to give the latter a go and see how it compares.
The other thing is, and I know it's daft (so just humour me, lol) is that I like using fuels and oils from the same company and/or where there is some form of connection, as is the case with BP and Castrol, in order to capitalise on any 'synergy'. Therefore, in that respect, combining Shell V-Power Nitro+ diesel with Shell Helix Ultra Extra oil makes sense.
Marco.
OK getting somewhere:
Shell Normal Fuel save diesel:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_26724_key_140003767752_201012221146.p df
Shell VPower:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_26724_key_140003767522_201012221018.p df
VPower actually has a lower average Cetane index than their Fuel Saver Formulation, if fact the fuels appear to me to be very similar, probably just differing in the additives.
Just need to find the Nitro+ info.......
I get about 34mpg of motorway and mixed driving. it might not sound good for a diesel, but it's brilliant compared with my old 540i (17mpg), which my car comprehensively outperforms, or the M3 (21mpg) which it gets close to.
Ooh err Mindreader eh, better watch what I'm thinking:lol: , my exact reason for asking is I fancy a change from my 540 although I do seem to have become addicted to cylinders as I have matured ,Apart from E classes for work I have always prefered small fast cars Hence 3 lancia intergrales and a Ghibli before babies and a 530 now the 540 , but as Marco states they are rather heavy feeling so may switch to a 3 they seem to have nearly as much interior space as the 5.
cheers Paul
OK getting somewhere:
Shell Normal Fuel save diesel:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_26724_key_140003767752_201012221146.p df
Shell VPower:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_26724_key_140003767522_201012221018.p df
VPower actually has a lower average Cetane index than their Fuel Saver Formulation, if fact the fuels appear to me to be very similar, probably just differing in the additives.
Just need to find the Nitro+ info.......
Interesting, Neal. Please don't stop there, though! I'd like to know how both compare, in that respect, with BP Ultimate diesel (as you seem to be good at finding these things).... Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I've just searched on the shell website and the above VPower document is listed for Nitro+Diesel:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_26724_key_140003767522_201012221018.p df
Given that Shell make no claims about Cetane enhancers and from what I can gather on the car forums the Cetane rating appears to be the same. I've sent Shell customer services an email to ask for clarification.
Edit: Marco, I think any product comparison may not get into the public domain unless its been done by an independent body of some sort....I'll keep looking though as I'm as curious as you are!
Just for reference, stumbled over this excellent document about Diesel engines and fuels, seems to cover everything!
http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-performace_usage/service-technician%27s-guide-to-diesel-fuel.pdf?sfvrsn=4
I've just searched on the shell website and the above VPower document is listed for Nitro+Diesel:
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_26724_key_140003767522_201012221018.p df
Given that Shell make no claims about Cetane enhancers and from what I can gather on the car forums the Cetane rating appears to be the same. I've sent Shell customer services an email to ask for clarification.
Excellent, Neal, and thanks for that. Given the evidence you've produced so far, I think we can take is as read that there will likely be no difference, in terms of Cetane values.
However, what I find weird is that their V-Power Nitro+ unleaded fuel has clearly been stated in the public domain as having a RON value of 99 (the highest currently available along with that of Tesco Momentum), which presumably is one of the reasons why it is claimed as being superior to 'ordinary' unleaded, and yet the same rules aren't being applied with the diesel version of Nitro+... :scratch:
And of course, where does BP Ultimate unleaded or diesel fit in with all of this?
Marco.
Another article confirming the Shell Cetane differences:
http://www.dieselcaronline.co.uk/features/the-extra-mile-april
Is it all just marketing?
BP Ultimate Product Specification:
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/retail_new/retail_new_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/0_999/BP_Ultimate_Diesel.pdf
Problem with this is its for Australia and I think our BP blend is different. IE has a higher Cetane rating.
Ooh err Mindreader eh, better watch what I'm thinking:lol: , my exact reason for asking is I fancy a change from my 540 although I do seem to have become addicted to cylinders as I have matured
The 335d has six cylinders in the usual straight six BMW configuration. Smoother than the V8, as straight sixes (and V12s) are perfectly balanced. My 540i was a lovely car but it didn't have the animal acceleration of the 335d.
P.S Martin, we need to see a piccy of your 'baby'. As far as I know, you've not posted one so far
As you wish...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5441/10085440893_3773ef049e_b.jpg
Another article confirming the Shell Cetane differences:
http://www.dieselcaronline.co.uk/features/the-extra-mile-april
Is it all just marketing?
Interesting article... For me, this bit is perhaps significant:
Well, we do know that V-Power Diesel contains sophisticated synthetic GTL components that are claimed to aid combustion...
Perhaps the above is a separate issue to any Cetane enhancing elements and possibly explains why V-Power gives superior performance in the right engine?
Anyway, I've just been out in the car again, picking up Del from college, and with now a full tank of Nitro+ diesel in the car, it's most certainly going the best is ever has, with notably sharper acceleration, better responsiveness and a smoother ride (On the A55 dual carriageway, I even out-accelerated and left standing, a BMW 530i, the driver of which obviously fancied a little race :eyebrows:).
Therefore, I feel confident that I'm not imagining the benefits with Nitro+ diesel, as it's the only variable I've introduced recently.
Quite simply, either there is something genuinely superior with V-Power Nitro+ diesel or it just suits my car's engine more than BP Ultimate. Either way, the improvement (for me) is real! :)
Marco.
As you wish...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5441/10085440893_3773ef049e_b.jpg
Looks wonderful, Martin (really smart). I wouldn't mind a shot in it... We could always swap cars and go for a run in them next time I'm down. I'm comprehensively insured to drive any other car, as I assume you are. Either that, or we could take each other out for a spin in our respective vehicles - would be a giggle! :eyebrows: :)
Marco.
P.S What's the profile on those tyres - and I presume they're 19-inchers? Looks even lower than on my 18s, which are these:
http://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rshop.pl?s_p=Pirelli-P-ZERO-245_35-ZR18-92Y-XL-with-rim-protection-ridge-_FSL__-MO&details=Ordern&typ=R-166780&cart_id=24758573.110.18496&ranzahl=4&Breite=245&Herst=Pirelli&Quer=35&Felge=18&Speed=Y&weiter=0&kategorie=6&Ang_pro_Seite=20&Transport=P&F_F=1&dsco=110&sowigan=So&m_s=3&x_tyre_for=ALL&rsmFahrzeugart=ALL
Must admit that I'm loving the Pirelli P-Zeros!
Lol... Wossat mean - I suspect that you haven't read my edit?
Marco.
P.S What's the profile on those tyres - and I presume they're 19-inchers?
Yes, 19" - 265/30 R19 Z rated. Goodyear F1 Asymmetric 2 for me, the best tyres I've tried so far (and I've tried a lot on my last three cars).
Interesting... I thought that they were even lower profile. You must really feel the road bumps! What do you prefer about the Goodyears over the Bridgestones and Avons? Also, have you tried Pirelli P-Zeros? :)
Marco.
I did feel the road when they were Bridgestone run-flats. Horrible things! I decided to forego run-flats by carrying a couple of cans of Tyreweld. P-Zeros aren't bad, but they wore fast. I've tried lots of tyres and the ones that have consistently impressed me are Toyo Proxes T1-R, Avon ZZ3 and the Goodyears. The latter are the best wet tyre I've ever used.
Yes, I have noticed that the Pirellis wear a bit - mind you, that's after having driven 3000 miles to Italy and back in the summer in very hot conditions! However, I find them pretty grippy and ultimately, probably most importantly for me, very quiet and comfortable :)
They're also the MO fitting for my Merc, which I always feel is significant, as it's very important to match the car correctly to the right tyres. Which tyres are the MO fitting for your Beemer?
Marco.
The 335d has six cylinders in the usual straight six BMW configuration. Smoother than the V8, as straight sixes (and V12s) are perfectly balanced. My 540i was a lovely car but it didn't have the animal acceleration of the 335d.
Thanks for the info Martin , yeah the v8 is a bit of a chugger , yours sounds nice,I think a visit to a dealer is in order , although I seem to have fallen out with the dealers round my way :(
Paul
Which tyres are the MO fitting for your Beemer?
Bridgestone or Continental. I'd take the Contis over the Bridgestones any day.
Interesting... I quite liked Contis, but much prefer the Pirellis. Thing is, neither are cheap!
Have you checked with BMW about the compatability of the Goodyears, or are you not arsed and would rather just use your own judgement? :)
Marco.
Have you checked with BMW about the compatability of the Goodyears, or are you not arsed and would rather just use your own judgement?
The latter!
Hehehehe... :respect:
Marco.
I finally got around to filling up with Shell V-Power Nitro+ diesel last week. It certainly runs the engine smoothly but overall was a big disappointment. The engine feels sluggish to respond without the whipcrack responsiveness of the BP I usually use. It gives the feeling of the turbo having spun down so that demand is met by lag before it gets going. Not at all impressed, especially for the cost.
I shall continue using BP Ultimate diesel as the best fuel I have found for my car.
No worries, Martin - at least you tried it. The results are obviously engine-dependent, as the situation is the complete opposite in my Merc....
Marco.
Having sold lubricants for a while I add a drop of diesel additive in every time I fill up and have done for years. The fuel itself is not as important as the additive which is essential for prolonging engine life, improving mpg and getting more welly from your vehicle (has to be a diesel vehicle of course)
I live not far from millers oils but don't use their additives, I use the best, what's it called, can anyone guess, the uk distributer is 1/2 a mile away from millers oils. No one will know they exist as their products are the rolls royce of lubricants.
Guesses on a postcard.
I certainly felt the effects of the ECU 'acquiring' the characteristics of the Shell fuel, such that the sluggishness gradually built up until it was really annoying me this morning. I have now filled up with BP and expect things to improve in my 28 miles to work tomorrow morning. I have felt the same pattern in the past with standard diesel. Remember that my ECU is remapped for performance, so it is quite understandable that it has become more sensitive to the fuel.
David: I use Millers Diesel Ecomax regularly, as well as another secret ingredient in my tankfuls. Can you guess what it is? ;)
Remember that my ECU is remapped for performance, so it is quite understandable that it has become more sensitive to the fuel.
Indeed, and so is mine (my car, post re-map, now produces just under 290bhp). It just happens to perform better on Shell V-Power Nitro+ diesel, than BP Ultimate. The improvement was most marked when I changed from using Castrol Edge (5W/40) oil, to Shell Helix Ultra Extra (5W/30), where the latter appears to 'gel' better with the V-Power Nitro+ diesel.
With V-Power Nitro+, smoothness is notably increased (compared with BP Ultimate), as is the 'power surge', through the rev range. It's a total no-brainer. However, clearly, results are rather different with your car :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
05-02-2014, 20:36
I certainly felt the effects of the ECU 'acquiring' the characteristics of the Shell fuel, such that the sluggishness gradually built up until it was really annoying me this morning. I have now filled up with BP and expect things to improve in my 28 miles to work tomorrow morning. I have felt the same pattern in the past with standard diesel. Remember that my ECU is remapped for performance, so it is quite understandable that it has become more sensitive to the fuel.
David: I use Millers Diesel Ecomax regularly, as well as another secret ingredient in my tankfuls. Can you guess what it is? ;)
Acetone?
That's the boy (I'm sure Martin will confirm) :eyebrows:
TBH, I've largely stopped using fuel additives, as I'm not getting the same benefit from them now as I was when I first used them, perhaps because since running the car continually with performance fuels, with additives already in them (where the previous owner was most likely using supermarket shite), the relevant engine parts are now nice and clean, and so the car doesn't really need the extra additives?
Marco.
Acetone?
Nope. I used to use that but find that my new additive plus the odd dose of Miller's keeps it clean and improves the cetane rating. Clean exhaust pipes are a good sign of a clean burn.
The additive? 300ml of mineral two-stroke oil. Makes for a very smooth engine indeed, and lubricates the fuel pumps. I buy five 600ml bottles from Wilko very cheaply.
Lol... What are you like? The concoction-meister... :eyebrows:
Somehow, I don't feel inclined to copy you! ;)
Marco.
Well, there is reasoning behind the madness! Two-stroke oil is a much better lubricant than diesel, and is designed to burn very clean because it forms part of the fuel mix in two-stroke engines. It's quite a well-accepted practice and certainly works well for me.
No worries, I understand your reasoning, and if it works for you, it works :)
However, I don't know enough about these things, specifically about how the parts of the engine in my car would react to using such a mixture in the long term. With these types of things, I play safe, and so if something is not Mercedes recommended, I generally leave it well alone.
Marco.
The Barbarian
05-02-2014, 23:14
Marco whats with the Who/Producer: Shel Talmy pickkie, that was more than likley taken at IBC Studio, London..
LOL, dude...
1) I like The Who. 2) If you look closely, you'll see a bank of Lockwood Majors at the back of the studio! ;)
Marco.
The Barbarian
05-02-2014, 23:35
Thats right they used Lockwood..
Confirmed this morning: on my 28 mile run to work, the car is back to its slingshot best. It definitely prefers BP fuel.
Marco: I wouldn't advocate nor take responsibility for anyone else messing with the fuel in their cars. I have been experimenting for years. Do it at your own risk ;)
Thats right they used Lockwood..
I guess they can't be that bad, then! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Confirmed this morning: on my 28 mile run to work, the car is back to its slingshot best. It definitely prefers BP fuel.
Marco: I wouldn't advocate nor take responsibility for anyone else messing with the fuel in their cars. I have been experimenting for years. Do it at your own risk ;)
That's fair enough, Martin - I know where my comfort zone is in relation to fiddling with such things :)
Glad that your car's got its mojo back! Out of interest, how much V-Power was left in the tank before you filled up with BP Ultimate?
Marco.
I tried to empty it as much as possible. I got 55 litres in, so about 5 litres of Shell left.
Cool. Let me know if you think your car goes better, or worse, after those 5 litres have been used up.
When I was experimenting (and could be arsed with the effort), I found that mixing half a tank of BP Ultimate with a half-tank of V-Power Nitro+ produced the best results, kind of giving you the best of both worlds: smoothness and power. Fortunately I have both Shell and BP stations within easy reach!
There's one thing I'm sure about (certainly in my car) is that the engine runs smoother on V-Power Nitro+ diesel, than it does on BP Ultimate. Would you agree that's also the case in your Beemer, albeit at the expense of some power? :)
Marco.
Both are very smooth, but then the two-stroke oil that I add gives incredible smoothness so may be hiding the slight differences in fuel in this respect.
Since two-stroke oil (orange-red) is somewhat heavier than diesel oil (yellow-orange), it just depends on how much of the heavier oil extracts after cracking they add in. See the diagram for colours:
http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/oil-refining-diagram.gif
Yup, that makes sense! Let me know what you think when you use up the last of the V-Power, and it's replenished with Ultimate, specifically if there is any loss in overall smoothness (not ultimate power). That is a separate consideration :)
My gut feeling is that V-Power improves smoothness the most.
Marco.
Both are very smooth, but then the two-stroke oil that I add gives incredible smoothness so may be hiding the slight differences in fuel in this respect.
Since two-stroke oil (orange-red) is somewhat heavier than diesel oil (yellow-orange), it just depends on how much of the heavier oil extracts after cracking they add in. See the diagram for colours:
http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/oil-refining-diagram.gif
I remember learning that diagram for O level Chemistry.
I had cause to fill up with non-BP again this week (my local station's tanks are small and demand has increased) so I thought I'd repeat the experiment with Shell Nitro+ to see if my previous results had been a glitch. Nope, I suffered from poor pickup and turbo lag again, despite my bi-turbo engine displaying very little if any turbo lag in normal use. At every point when pressing on in D rather than DS mode, so that the revs are lower, I felt a tiny lag before the smaller turbo spooled up. In the end, it became annoying and spoiled my enjoyment of the car on open country roads. I started to put it in DS continuously if only to reduce the lag, but of course that's ruinous for consumption over a reasonable distance. It's worse than the few times I've had to run the car on normal BP.
Today I was finally able to fill up with BP Ultimate and, after a few miles to allow the last of the Shell to wash through, I was relieved to feel the car pull like a train again with no turbo lag. So it's conclusive for me: the order of performance for my car is BP Ultimate > BP Diesel > anything else (including Shell). My focus is now on the station getting more deliveries so that I don't have to do that again (but I will use normal BP in preference to Shell in future).
I had cause to fill up with non-BP again this week (my local station's tanks are small and demand has increased) so I thought I'd repeat the experiment with Shell Nitro+ to see if my previous results had been a glitch. Nope, I suffered from poor pickup and turbo lag again, despite my bi-turbo engine displaying very little if any turbo lag in normal use. At every point when pressing on in D rather than DS mode, so that the revs are lower, I felt a tiny lag before the smaller turbo spooled up. In the end, it became annoying and spoiled my enjoyment of the car on open country roads. I started to put it in DS continuously if only to reduce the lag, but of course that's ruinous for consumption over a reasonable distance. It's worse than the few times I've had to run the car on normal BP.
Today I was finally able to fill up with BP Ultimate and, after a few miles to allow the last of the Shell to wash through, I was relieved to feel the car pull like a train again with no turbo lag. So it's conclusive for me: the order of performance for my car is BP Ultimate > BP Diesel > anything else (including Shell). My focus is now on the station getting more deliveries so that I don't have to do that again (but I will use normal BP in preference to Shell in future).
I used to use the higher grade BP suff but tbh, since having the superchips tune done, it's pretty irrelevant. The car when using supermarket diesel was pulling something like 225BHP/480nM (2240rpm) on the dyno after the tune (standard was 185/400). Also improved fuel economy by around 4 or 5mpg when a light right foot was used. Instant torque, any gear any revs from 1000rpm upwards...no noteable turbo lag. Trouble is with emissions tuning for all new engines plus EGR to the inlet manifold etc etc, these engines are strangled and working inefficiently as standard. I cannot recommend something like the superchips retune highly enough.
I'm really puzzled by these comments. You may get a "slight" increase in power, but I don't think you could detect it on the road.
There is for sure a certain placebo affect with these fuels, as unless you have a knock sensor and other electronic gizmo's installed, how does your engine know it has a high cetane fuel, and "adjust" the map to make full use of it.
I can't tell the difference between premium diesel, branded diesel and supermarket in any of my Diesel cars I have owned (mostly German in origin). I'm used to performance cars too, and sticking 98 RON in a car set up for 95 RON is a waste of time/money too. Turbo spool up is a function of the exhaust gas flow and (waste gate actuation - where fitted), so unless you are miraculously getting more gas out from the same amount of air and fuel, I would politely suggest that the difference in turbo lag is not measurable in the real world.
My biggest MPG gains come just after a service with a new air filter and clean oil (of the thinnest manufacturers recommended grade). One thing for sure though is that the branded fuels have a better additive package than the super market stuff, so I always use Total or BP here in France. The economy gains are just not worth the additional cost, but the car runs slightly smoother with branded fuel. If I want to go quicker I leave the heavy oil burning uber barge at home and take one of the British designed and built two seater cars instead, in a choice of 210 BHP/220 Nm for 520 Kg, or 350 BHP/390 Nm for 1060kg. :eyebrows:
A remap/modification (from someone like Ecotune) to the inlet and exhuast manifolds can give good gains (80 BHP and 120 Nm on an E46 330D), so if you want to eek out a little more power, it's the best way to go.
I guess an analogy could be that I have changed my T/T bearing oil and the sound is so much better, even though the rest of the system is still mechanically the same (it could be true if the oil was in a right state, or missing). As a qualified Automotive Engineer, unless your engine management system is sophisticated enough to benefit from a higher cetane rated fuel, in my opinion you will not see a difference worth the additional cost, but like HiFi, if you are happy and believe it makes a difference, carry on.
My e-maps remap (from 286bhp/580nm to 350bhp/700nm) has made the car respond even better to good grade fuel, which is how it always is with engines in a higher state of tune.
As for placebo effect - please! Do you think I'm not capable of assessing fuels without kidding myself? Why then do I find BP Ultimate so good and Shell Nitro+ (even more expensive) so poor?
With my Saab 95 Shell Nitro Unleaded is by far the best in terms if performance and MPG by a considerable amount.
Just for the sake of clarity, I'm using diesel fuels.
Yup, that makes sense! Let me know what you think when you use up the last of the V-Power, and it's replenished with Ultimate, specifically if there is any loss in overall smoothness (not ultimate power). That is a separate consideration :)
My gut feeling is that V-Power improves smoothness the most.
Marco.
Yawn
you need to get out more chief! :ner:
Just for the sake of clarity, I'm using diesel fuels.
:lol: never!
Yawn
you need to get out more chief! :ner:
Lol - well I'll be needing some of me fancy fuel to get to your bake-off on Saturday! Have you got the bearing base-plate ready for me?
Marco.
My e-maps remap (from 286bhp/580nm to 350bhp/700nm) has made the car respond even better to good grade fuel, which is how it always is with engines in a higher state of tune.
As for placebo effect - please! Do you think I'm not capable of assessing fuels without kidding myself? Why then do I find BP Ultimate so good and Shell Nitro+ (even more expensive) so poor?
Have you changed cam profiles, valve sizes, blanked of the EGR and bypassed the DPF etc? If not your engine is not in a higher state of tune. You have an optimised map, with potentially increased fuel pressure (not always a good idea). If done properly, you can get good gains but the published figures can vary car to car, unless yours was done individually on a rolling road.
If both fuels have a similar cetane content (I have not checked) then how would you explain why one fuel is substantially better than another? How do you explain your turbo lag, being a function of exhaust gas flow it will be the same for both fuels at a given RPM. I think what you are actually trying to describe is throttle response and pick up. A higher cetane content will help here for sure, as you get a slightly bigger bang.
Have you tried any of the additives (such as Millers) as it would be interesting to see your thoughts on those, as they are supposed to boost cetane content, and could work out cheaper than premium fuel, but giving you the same effect.
Have you changed cam profiles, valve sizes, blanked of the EGR and bypassed the DPF etc?
I was all set to have the DPF bypassed but the MOT people have spoiled our fun and declared DPF deletion to be illegal. Since an optimised map pushes performance closer to the limiting envelope, with greater fuel flow in the midrange especially, but demands better fuels and proper servicing (i.e. no allowance for slack maintenance), how is that not a higher state of tune? Never mind, it's probably just semantics.
If both fuels have a similar cetane content (I have not checked) then how would you explain why one fuel is substantially better than another?
It isn't just cetane, is it? There are many different additives in there. Since I can feel the difference when I switch fuel (which I try to avoid), there are obvious differences. When you own a car from new and have had it for six years, you become very attuned to its performance if you have any mechanical empathy, as I'm sure you know.
Have you tried any of the additives (such as Millers)
Yes, I have variously over the years (and two diesel cars) tried acetone, Millers and 2-stroke oil. I have settled on the odd dose of Millers especially if I have a nice long country drive in the offing; a dose of acetone every 5-6 tankfuls to keep the fuel system clean (my exhaust pipes are very clean with no soot build-up at all); and 300ml mineral 2-stroke oil in every tankful as it has a very noticeable effect on smoothness, noise, pickup and general driveability due to its burning cleaner than diesel. There's a lot of information on the net about acetone and 2-stroke in diesel fuel.
It's mainly cetane that gives you the bang, but the other additives are mainly a "cleaning package."
We covered the CETANE / Deisel thing and DPF earlier in the thread! Too much CETANE = a bad thing, Shell V-Power = Shell Nitro+ with some additive changes. Shell Economy Diesel = higher average CETANE than V-Power/Nitro, BP Ultimate = high average CETANE rating, all base Diesels come from the same refineries, all Diesel must meet a minimum CETANE rating, Tesco Diesel + Rhino is aaawsthum :lol: :D
I haven't tried Rhino, Neal. That's one to test in the future.
It's mainly cetane that gives you the bang, but the other additives are mainly a "cleaning package."
I realise now that I may have mislead you into thinking that I'm claiming different levels of power with the super diesel fuels. It's not that, it's just the style of delivery - throttle response, turbo lag, etc. that differ. All very subtle (like mains cables) :lol:
StanleyB
16-04-2014, 09:49
My car engine responds very well to V-Shell. The best method that I found to test the fuels that I use is to put the car in fifth gear at about 50MPH and then catch up with and pass another car doing 70MPH. With V-Shell I can normally manage that pass in less then 20 seconds. Other fuels can take 30 seconds.
Remind me of what car you have, Stan?
I find 50-70 performance very telling. I also snick mine into manual 6th gear on occasion and accelerate from quite low speeds to test low rev torque.
Having had the re-map for a short while, the mpg now averaged for a fair few hundred miles was less in combined driving than initially measured for a few one-off trips. Rougher running at idle too on regular diesel fuel. The car was booked in for some Eibach Pro Kit springs as in standard trim, even the D5 is a bit of a barge. Whilst booked in, I discussed the running with the tuners, and we had the car back on the tuning bay to re-examine the map. They recommended a DPF bypass but I refused as, like Martin, I have no wish to add to the particulates entering Bambi's lungs, so the clever kit came out and a few issues with the original map were found which weren't immediately obvious when viewing power/torque curves. The resultant re-tune has upped power by about another 10% (to about 235BHP) but the spread of torque has been improved and the all important mid range improved along with pick-up. What I can say is that the biggest single improvement has not been the additional power or torque, but the safer handling now the car is fitted with suspension that keeps it stable and grips the road even when pushing on a bit through the odd corner. Stability under braking is massively improved too, so my next job will be to up-rate the braking system to match the additional levels of grip.
The end result is a safer handling, faster and more economical car. To the naysayers, try some sensible mods and you'll look back and wonder why you never tried it years ago. The revised mapping now allows me a 40mpg average around the local hilly area up from 35 or 36mpg of the standard car. The improved handling means safer handling and safer more stable braking (soon to be improved stopping with Brembo discs and fast road pads fitted). I have ordered some Millers to see if it makes any difference at all. I'm very sceptical because I used Millers additives in my previous 3 series with no discernible differences/improvements at all. I'll try to add as much objectivity as possible when I report back and wait to compare similar journeys for mpg and smoothness of running etc. Not expecting anything much. Tried a tank of Shell VPower diesel too and whilst it was a little smoother than my usual garage stuff, I have not noticed any significant changes to running or mpg on the first tankful.
Just be careful with the cold performance of fast road brake pads.
Performance Braking in Monmouth really know their stuff, and it will be worth having a chat with them about pad selection.
Just be careful with the cold performance of fast road brake pads.
Performance Braking in Monmouth really know their stuff, and it will be worth having a chat with them about pad selection.
The pads that I have in mind are the Ferodo DS2500 which don't compromise on cold braking performance (coeff of friction is 0.42 at all temperatures) but are far less likely to fade due to heat. The only downside is that they can sometimes squeal a little under hard braking (for normal use, they're fine). Not cheap though at £178 for the front pads. For advice, I tend to use Turner Race Developments who are a local tuning specialist and they do know their onions.
Just to revive this thread... Has anyone tried the new Esso Synergy Supreme+ diesel? They've got it in at my local station, and it's superb. Gives more 'zip' and better acceleration than either Shell V-Power or BP Ultimate.
http://www.esso.co.uk/diesel
Highly recommended for performance cars! :cool:
Marco.
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