View Full Version : Which Tannoys, folks?
Tannoy Glenair 15" or Tannoy Turnberry SE (Prestige) and why?
Recently heard the DC10a's and a while back had the pleasure of hearing some 15" monitor golds in York cabs.
The DC10a's I wouldn't give tuppence for...absolutely dreadful; the old timers were wonderful in a warm and cuddly fashion. The only one's I haven't heard that I'd like to are the two mentioned above. Opinions?
hoopsontoast
05-10-2012, 06:38
I have heard the Turnberrys at Scalford the first year, were great.
I think the prestige line is more highly thought of over the Glenair models (with the Glenair 10 anyway).
The Black Adder
05-10-2012, 07:41
Why not buy some Vintage Monitor Golds? They are fully serviceable and imo certainly sound better than the Glenair.. I've only heard the Turnberry SE's once or twice. They did sound nice.
I've spent the last 4-5 months experimenting with the crossovers for my MG's with components and layouts I'm utterly taken aback to the magic the MG's can do. And I'd say for definite that the sound surpasses the Glenairs hands down.
btw. I heard the Glenairs in a very similar sized room to mine using Croft amps, near as dammit to mine too... Not impressed at all.
But I don't want your thread to turn in to some vintage ramble so I'll leave it there... lol
Just a thought.
Anyway, if not the vintage route then I'd got for the Turnberry's. Much more lush sound to my ears.
btw.. I need to ask some q's on Talk 3 cable so I'll send you a PM.
jandl100
05-10-2012, 08:17
Listen for yourself, then decide. :)
StanleyB
05-10-2012, 08:27
Asking somebody which speakers would suit you does not take into account your own circumstances and personal taste.
Just look at the NS1000M. Not everybody's cup of tea. Just ask JLAND100. I took his off him a few years ago because he just could not get on with them. But I have never looked back since then. And they are now worth close to three times the price he sold them to me for :eek:. But that's a separate issue.
jandl100
05-10-2012, 08:57
Personally, I couldn't live with any Tannoy DC I have heard (and I've heard a fair few).
Just goes to show that we're all different and, especially with speakers, we have to make our own minds up.
My advice to Paul is to take up speaker box-swapping - buy used and if necessary sell at the same price, and see what you like in your system, with your music, over the longer haul. :thumbsup:
stupinder
05-10-2012, 09:13
Great big horns!!! :-)
I reckon the best bit of advice is the last comment from Jerry - buy loads second hand until you find something that matches you, your room and budget.
A few ago I went through a similar process (though on a less grande scale). I had Audio Physics, Celestion A1 (Lovely speakers and shouldn't have sold them), Lowthers, Linn (and no doubt others I can't recall) and finally settled on an ancient pair of Japanese bookshelf speakers...though i must say they must have blooming big bookshelves in Japan - The Victors have been with me for 2 years now and MAY get moved out later today in pref' for something new i'm trying.
Thanks chaps for all the feedback but one or two guns being jumped here :lol:
I would not in the future buy any loudspeaker without auditioning, it's not worth the risk plus I am not (yet) decided on changing my own loudspeakers. They're too close to a good compromise (isn't it all?) to let go just yet.
I was interested in the differences between Tannoy models as interest was piqued talking with someone last week who has spent a great deal of time and trouble building up his own refurbished 15 inch MG's with new cross-overs and cabs. he reckoned that the best way with Tannoys was old drivers (don't make 'em like they used to...sound familiar?) with modern crossover components.
I heard some DC10's recently and was left very under-whelmed, and years back remember the big bouncy sound I once heard emanating from some Lancaster cabs (not one of my favourites). The only models I've never come across in the flesh have been the Prestige range, including the Glenairs.
What intrigued was that if Glenairs use the same drivers (Tulip wave guides) and x-overs as up to the Turnberry range (they seem to get all ALnico/pepper-pot after that and the price tag goes stratospheric too) what is the reason for the Glenair being the black sheep of the range...a marmite speaker to divide opinion if ever I've come across one?
I have the opportunity of listening to some Turnberrys at the weekend so out of curiosity I will, just to see what all the fuss is about.
Thanks chaps for all the feedback but one or two guns being jumped here :lol:
I would not in the future buy any loudspeaker without auditioning, it's not worth the risk plus I am not (yet) decided on changing my own loudspeakers. They're too close to a good compromise (isn't it all?) to let go just yet.
No-one ever said to get rid of you others before getting in the next pair! I..err don't.. and can't move in my flat.
I haven't heard the glenair models, but i have heard the turnberry se, and i liked them so much i bought some! Considering the size of the speaker, the bass quality/quantity is superb, and doesn't boom when placed close to room boundaries, even in my small/medium 5 x 4 metre room. I did notice the famous tannoy dc sharpness, which can be reduced by pointing the speakers down the room, instead of toed in facing the hot spot, as advised in the owners manual. So just point them down the room and enjoy!
walpurgis
05-10-2012, 23:26
Great big horns!!! :-)
I reckon the best bit of advice is the last comment from Jerry - buy loads second hand until you find something that matches you, your room and budget.
A few ago I went through a similar process (though on a less grande scale). I had Audio Physics, Celestion A1 (Lovely speakers and shouldn't have sold them), Lowthers, Linn (and no doubt others I can't recall) and finally settled on an ancient pair of Japanese bookshelf speakers...though i must say they must have blooming big bookshelves in Japan - The Victors have been with me for 2 years now and MAY get moved out later today in pref' for something new i'm trying.
Last time I got a great big horn, the wife wouldn't speak to me for a day!
I haven't heard the glenair models, but i have heard the turnberry se, and i liked them so much i bought some! Considering the size of the speaker, the bass quality/quantity is superb, and doesn't boom when placed close to room boundaries, even in my small/medium 5 x 4 metre room. I did notice the famous tannoy dc sharpness, which can be reduced by pointing the speakers down the room, instead of toed in facing the hot spot, as advised in the owners manual. So just point them down the room and enjoy!
The feedback on (and off!) the forum so far seems unanimous regarding the Turnbery SE's whilst the Glenair continues to divide opinion.
If I could afford 3 pairs of loudspeakers, I would have them all :D but it would end in divorce so I'd end up having to sell a few pairs and be back to square one. That's the issue for my room. It's 4.5m by 6.5m and is open plan onto a 7m by 4m room which is open plan onto another 4m by 3m room. The middle room has a very high ceiling. That's a lot of corners to consider (bass) and a large volume to drive (bass again). It's why many loudspeakers come and go. I get one that manages to drive the space (horning Agathon Ultimates) but the bass boom was sometimes enough to turn your insides to jelly:steam:
The Harbeths are truly lovely speakers. They work very well except that this particular room seems to suck some of the bass performance out of them unless a lot of watts is applied, then things get a little too loud:doh:
We'll see what effect Jerry's power amp has (rumoured to be the one once used to kick start Berkeley Nuclear Power Station) as with spaces like this it can sometimes be a case of lots of watts (I remain to be convinced) or a synergy thing.
The Tannoys were one of a handful of ideas. Saw a pair of Horning Eufrodites I liked (I do like Horning speakers) but the wife took one look and brought the Sunday roast fork out indicating where she'd stick it if I brought even larger boxes than the Agathons into the room :stalks:
The obvious choice some would say is bolt some subs (a pair) to the SHL5s but the expense for decent subs, additional wiring and space all means that's a no-no, so bigger boxes are order of the day. There's no substitute for cubes!
I've had some feedback RE build quality of Tannoys being variable and even "shoddy" which surprised me given the heritage and prices. The DC screech and honk issues are well documented and it's whether I could live with that which has prompted a listening session at the weekend. I may decide to keep the Harbeths as whilst a compromise they do seem to do everything else so well and the build quality is superb.
walpurgis
06-10-2012, 10:19
I believe the Turnbury and Glenair both use the dual magnet 'tulip waveguide' type driver.
This can sound very good and seems marginally smoother at the top end as a rule than the 'pepperpot' types.
But, the single magnet, compression driver tweeter Tannoys with the 'pepperpot' waveguide, to me at least always seem to have more immediacy and transparency through the mid, which really helps you see into the music that bit more. the slightly less controlled top end, I'm used to and can live with, it helps to pick sources and cables that don't excite this.
I use and enjoy both types of Tannoy dual concentics by the way.
I believe the Turnbury and Glenair both use the dual magnet 'tulip waveguide' type driver.
This can sound very good and seems marginally smoother at the top end as a rule than the 'pepperpot' types.
But, the single magnet, compression driver tweeter Tannoys with the 'pepperpot' waveguide, to me at least always seem to have more immediacy and transparency through the mid, which really helps you see into the music that bit more. the slightly less controlled top end, I'm used to and can live with, it helps to pick sources and cables that don't excite this.
I use and enjoy both types of Tannoy dual concentics by the way.
Interesting as the pepper pot type is the one most often recommended but least affordable!
It's strange, and I have just been in conversation with someone else on this, but most, if not all (bar one) musicians I know use either Harbeth or Tannoy loudspeakers at home, and of the Tannoy users, most use older MGs and tweaked crossovers or newer prestige models with pepperpot drivers. The one exception still uses some large cabinets containing 15 inch drivers!
Hi Paul,
I was interested in the differences between Tannoy models as interest was piqued talking with someone last week who has spent a great deal of time and trouble building up his own refurbished 15 inch MG's with new cross-overs and cabs. he reckoned that the best way with Tannoys was old drivers (don't make 'em like they used to...sound familiar?) with modern crossover components.
+1 and exactly my view, based on not an inconsiderable amount of experience of experimenting with and listening to various types of Tannoys, including the ones discussed here. Glenairs are largely a sonic abomination, as the drive units are too big for the cabinets, which creates all sorts of problems, and the Turnberrys are very good, compared with most modern speakers, but IMO, not *that* special - and certainly not capable of the magic of top-notch 15" Golds, with the best bespoke modern crossovers in optimally matched cabinets.
Furthermore, the latter route is considerably more cost effective than investing in new big Tannoys from the current Prestige range! :exactly:
If you like the sound achieved by successfully carrying out the above, then I can tell you that no other speaker, at any price, will match it. That's not to say that they're perfect (no speaker is) but their addictive balance of sonic virtues is unique. It's really as simple as that.
Why not come and listen to my 15" MGs, with modded crossovers, in Lockwood Major cabinets? You'd be more than welcome, and I assure you rather more informed about what vintage Tannoys are capable of (including well fed and watered) when you leave! ;)
Marco.
Hi Paul,
+1 and exactly my view, based on not an inconsiderable amount of experience of experimenting with and listening to various types of Tannoys, including the ones discussed here. Glenairs are largely a sonic abomination, as the drive units are too big for the cabinets, which creates all sorts of problems, and the Turnberrys are very good, compared with most modern speakers, but IMO, not *that* special - and certainly not capable of the magic of top-notch 15" Golds, with the best bespoke modern crossovers in optimally matched cabinets.
Furthermore, the latter route is considerably more cost effective than investing in new big Tannoys from the current Prestige range! :exactly:
If you like the sound achieved by successfully carrying out the above, then I can tell you that no other speaker, at any price, will match it. That's not to say that they're perfect (no speaker is) but their addictive balance of sonic virtues is unique. It's really as simple as that.
Why not come and listen to my 15" MGs, with modded crossovers, in Lockwood Major cabinets? You'd be more than welcome, and I assure you rather more informed about what vintage Tannoys are capable of (including well fed and watered) when you leave! ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco
thanks for the kind offer, and if you were closer I'd take you up on that. As it happens I'm visiting two guys closer to home tomorrow, one with modified older 15MGs in custom GRF cabs and one with Turnberry SEs. I'll let my ears make the decision.
Had I a larger workshop, I would make the cabs myself, but luckily RFC uses a local cabinet maker, so I can have him build me some cabs including veneering south of £2K. I reckon another £300 for crossovers and £1200 for some decent MGs and there for less than new Turnberrys one could have some proper Tannoys. I agree RE the Glenairs. The cabinet proportions and design just looks too compact for the drivers but I guess with the right amp and room match they could be made to sound good.
If the Turnberry's do it for me, I can find some used cheaper than making up some "proper" ones and that would do me. If the difference is noticeable but small, it would be something that I could live with. The SHL5's are going to be a tough act to follow either way.
Hi Paul,
thanks for the kind offer, and if you were closer I'd take you up on that.
No problem, mate. Do bear in mind that the offer includes putting you up for the night, as I wouldn't expect you to drive all that way and back in the same day. Anyway, mull it over and PM me, if you fancy it :)
As it happens I'm visiting two guys closer to home tomorrow, one with modified older 15MGs in custom GRF cabs and one with Turnberry SEs. I'll let my ears make the decision.
I can tell you that both will sound VERY different. If the cabs and crossovers are right with the 15MGs, then they *should* blow the Turnberrys away, but of course much depends on how good the partnering systems are. The point to note here is that there is much more potential to be exploited with the 15MGs, but the Turnberrys are a ready-made 'sorted' solution.
Had I a larger workshop, I would make the cabs myself, but luckily RFC uses a local cabinet maker, so I can have him build me some cabs including veneering south of £2K.
Sounds like a plan! :exactly:
I reckon another £300 for crossovers....
:nono: Soz, dude epic fail. That won't even cover the cost of all the capacitors, *if* you do it right!
My crossovers cost me around £1500, and that type of investment is what's needed to get the most from 15MGs. I used Clarity Cap MR caps throughout, Duelund resistors and Mundorf Air-Core Foil-coil inductors. If you want your Tannoys to sound like genuine high-end speakers, as opposed to just tarted-up DIY jobs, then nothing less will do.....
and £1200 for some decent MGs...
Que? Is that for 12" ones? Think more like £1.8-2k for minty 15-inchers!
I agree RE the Glenairs. The cabinet proportions and design just looks too compact for the drivers but I guess with the right amp and room match they could be made to sound good.
Possibly, but I'm really not a fan of their Tulip-Wave Guide tweeters either! Pepperpots are where it's at in Tannoyland.
If the Turnberry's do it for me, I can find some used cheaper than making up some "proper" ones and that would do me. If the difference is noticeable but small, it would be something that I could live with.
It'll be interesting finding out what you think of the Turnberrys, so I look forward to reading your findings. You might love them, as they are pretty capable speakers. However, for me, 'proper' modern Tannoys start at Kensington SEs, and upwards. The Pepperpot tweeters and Alnico magnets make all the difference. I've heard the Kensingtons in Anthony TD's system many times, and they sound truly breathtaking on the end of his Soul Single-ended valve Monoblocks.
Anyway, let us know how you get on! :cool:
Marco.
£1500 for cross-overs? Thats insane :eek:
I know of a few DIY'ers who've made some pretty exceptional sounding GRF and Lockwoods using 15 inch HPD drivers. The cost (of supposedly very good) crossovers was £500ish in both cases (good quality components). Looking at the cross-overs, I know that I could source very high quality components and make my own for way less than that, hence a guesstimate at £300. If I were to buy ready made examples, then I could double that easily.
Talking of lockwood majors:
http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=797
£2500 all in? That's something of an audio bargain IMHO.
£1500 for cross-overs? Thats insane :eek:
Lol - it all mounts up when you're buying the best bits, especially the best inductors! Might be different though, as you're in the trade :)
Talking of lockwood majors:
http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=797
£2500 all in? That's something of an audio bargain IMHO.
Bargain doesn't even come close to covering it. Those *should* be awesome, although I'd rather have 15MGs in them, than HPDs...
Marco.
Lol - it all mounts up when you're buying the best bits, especially inductors! Might be different though, as you're in the trade :)
Bargain doesn't even come close to covering it. Those *should* be awesome, although I'd rather have 15MGs in them, than HPDs...
Marco.
Agreed...It does seem an extraordinary bargain especially given said HPDs are refurbed, the crossovers are new and the cabs look to be very high quality and very solid. DIY-ing cabs would set you back (for the best timbers and veneers) between £500 and £1000 (including sundries). The veneer I have access to is sold in 8ft lengths (2ft wide) and costs £150 per sheet so easy to see how costs could rack up. Thats for the highest grade veneer available (trade price). The cheapest I've seen fully refurbed and serviced HPDs was about £600 the pair. In other words, how do they do it and make a profit?
Extraordinary bargain...I feel a phone call is in order :eyebrows:
Must admit though, they are not the prettiest of loudspeakers. Its like having a small pair of wardrobes in the living room. Turnberrys look prettier.
Yes, but they don't sound as good, certainly to my ears... Part of the reason why the Lockwoods work so well is their baffle width (which is coincidentally one of the reasons why Glenairs fail so miserably). 15" drivers, in order to reproduce gut-wrenching scale and depth, need to have big, WIDE, cabinets!! That's why I absolutely hate the fashion today for pencil-thin floorstanders with pityful arrays of teensy-weensy 6 or 8-inch drives, trying to reproduce genuine deep bass and realistic SCALE - it just ain't gonna happen!! :doh:
The other reason why the Lockwoods work is due to their overall construction (tried and tested, as previously used in many top recording studios around the world) and the rather 'interesting' way that they are ported...
Basically, the Lockwoods are a true studio monitor design, but that's only a good thing if you can handle hearing the truth from your music collection, due to their ruthlessly revealing nature (when suitably fettled). Personally, I love that, as they do it so beautifully, and musically, without ever sounding forensic or clinical.
When suitably fettled, they sound musically accurate, but not in a cold sounding and tiring way, like for example, some ATC studio monitors can. Think about it: do you know of any recording studios who use or have used Turnberrys? They're good fun, but ultimately a little too coloured sounding for my tastes.
Marco.
anthonyTD
06-10-2012, 18:50
Thanks chaps for all the feedback but one or two guns being jumped here :lol:
I would not in the future buy any loudspeaker without auditioning, it's not worth the risk plus I am not (yet) decided on changing my own loudspeakers. They're too close to a good compromise (isn't it all?) to let go just yet.
I was interested in the differences between Tannoy models as interest was piqued talking with someone last week who has spent a great deal of time and trouble building up his own refurbished 15 inch MG's with new cross-overs and cabs. he reckoned that the best way with Tannoys was old drivers (don't make 'em like they used to...sound familiar?) with modern crossover components.
I heard some DC10's recently and was left very under-whelmed, and years back remember the big bouncy sound I once heard emanating from some Lancaster cabs (not one of my favourites). The only models I've never come across in the flesh have been the Prestige range, including the Glenairs.
What intrigued was that if Glenairs use the same drivers (Tulip wave guides) and x-overs as up to the Turnberry range (they seem to get all ALnico/pepper-pot after that and the price tag goes stratospheric too) what is the reason for the Glenair being the black sheep of the range...a marmite speaker to divide opinion if ever I've come across one?
I have the opportunity of listening to some Turnberrys at the weekend so out of curiosity I will, just to see what all the fuss is about.
Hi Paul,
i have owned Glenairs, heard the Turnberry,s and Modified Monitor golds in Lockwood cabinets, with modern cross-overs, All on my own power amps etc, The Glenairs Did my head in as there was a severe beaming affect of the mid frequencies that was imposible to correct in my system, no matter what i tried, i think it is mainly down to the profile of the 15" driver rather than the tulip waveguide, on both the Turnberry's and monitor golds, my advice would be to listen to both, with the equipment you intend to use them with if you can, the Turnberry's are a real good speaker for the money, and i think you would be surprised at their performance capabilities, however, if you can find a good pair of monitor golds, in decent cabinets with the cross-overs reworked, at least go and audition them, i guarantee you will be surprised and may even question how far we have come with modern speaker design.
Hope this helps.:)
Anthony,TD...
Hi Paul,
i have owned Glenairs, heard the Turnberry,s and Modified Monitor golds in Lockwood cabinets, with modern cross-overs, All on my own power amps etc, The Glenairs Did my head in as there was a severe beaming affect of the mid frequencies that was imposible to correct in my system, no matter what i tried, i think it is mainly down to the profile of the 15" driver rather than the tulip waveguide, on both the Turnberry's and monitor golds, my advice would be to listen to both, with the equipment you intend to use them with if you can, the Turnberry's are a real good speaker for the money, and i think you would be surprised at their performance capabilities, however, if you can find a good pair of monitor golds, in decent cabinets with the cross-overs reworked, at least go and audition them, i guarantee you will be surprised and may even question how far we have come with modern speaker design.
Hope this helps.:)
Anthony,TD...
Hi Anthony
Many thanks for your valuable insights. I'm with you on your conclusions after visiting countless hifi shows, having had review speakers through my mits and having home dem'd around two dozen different pairs over the last 10 years or so I do think that we haven't come that far. I have an old book written in 1954 by Rogers on loudspeaker design and not a great deal has really changed in principle today. What was good then remains so today. Whilst magnets and cone materials have got better (as have crossovers) the implementation of the loudspeaker hasn't (with a few notable exceptions).
As Marco says, fashion dictates lean floor standers, multi-driver arrays etc. Whilst I don't agree with Marco that these can't do scale (many can) their main problem remains phase accuracy and complex crossover networks.
Too few loudspeakers "do" treble very well either whilst I'm on my soap box, the Tommy Horning Lotus tweeter design, and possibly the MBL Radialstrahler are the best I've heard, or certainly the most natural. None others I've heard come close.
What appeals with Tannoy is the point source design, the efficiency and the ability to generate believable scale even at low volumes all without the phase-shift issues which plague many designs of today. I'm not a fan of inefficient designs either, as its never simply a matter of bolting on Watts. Their rise/decay characteristics depend on a lot more, and their bass (inefficient designs generally being smaller boxes) always seeming to be forced and unnatural.
I guess my journey has taken me through most of the designs available today (plus many thousands of pounds later!) up to what I would argue to date having been the most faithful to music reproduction,the Harbeth SHL5, but it is I've found a compromise like so many others that I personally may not be able to live with in the scale department. That's what I'm hoping that the Tannoys might bring to the party without too much colouration. Some colouration I can live with. It seems odd for any true audiophile to say that they'd sacrifice tonal accuracy, but if there are compensations which allow greater emotional involvement with music, then so be it.
The Black Adder
06-10-2012, 20:29
My crossovers cost me around £1500, and that type of investment is what's needed to get the most from 15MGs. I used Clarity Cap MR caps throughout, Duelund resistors and Mundorf Air-Core Foil-coil inductors. If you want your Tannoys to sound like genuine high-end speakers, as opposed to just tarted-up DIY jobs, then nothing less will do.....
Absolutely... :) Vintage MG's can still have the Tannoy magic but without the annoying bits but that comes with a price and layout experimentation / fettling.
walpurgis
06-10-2012, 23:37
On my part, I think any interest in modern Tannoy models would be directed towards the Kensington. One which I've yet to hear, but which I hear good things about. At least it uses a true 'pepperpot' type drive unit, I gather. Must get a listen some time. At least its of a domestically manageable size.
Paul, what a nice problem to have! Replacing the Harbs will be tough as you say, the Tannoys could possibly do it though, do let us know how you get on, Turnberrys are on my potential upgrade path with my Compact 7s going in a second system, take your time and enjoy the listening and report back!:)
Paul, what a nice problem to have! Replacing the Harbs will be tough as you say, the Tannoys could possibly do it though, do let us know how you get on, Turnberrys are on my potential upgrade path with my Compact 7s going in a second system, take your time and enjoy the listening and report back!:)
Hi Andy
yes, a very good problem to have! I've had some good advice on here and some equally great advice from Haden Boardman (what Haden doesn't know about Tannoys isn't worth knowing IMHO).
I'll certainly report back on the Turnberrys. The off putting thing about Tulip Waveguide models is that they use an ordinary tweeter with a plastic tube on the end to obtain correct time alignment so will always suffer from honk (even if not too pronounced). However, it's cost that will be the final arbitor in terms of what I can afford to go to now (it may change later).
In response to the Kensington comments, yes it's the one to go for (especially used) but it is then in the realm of true MGs serviced and with new x-overs set into decent cabs, and despite being the new kid on the block, a well sorted original pair will always have the better designed/made drivers (unaffordable to produce these days in fact), so it must be weighed up against looks and sound alone.
For my part, value is an arbitrary notion. I'm not made of money, far from it! However, whatever I scrimp and save to afford, the actual cost will become unimportant 5 or 10 years down the line and individual choice will be determined on performance and quality. If the Turnberrys sound great then there is always the sneaky option of buying a good used pair half price and later fitting 10 or even 12 inch monitor golds or reds :eyebrows:
hifi_dave
07-10-2012, 09:16
I stocked Tannoy for many years and sold hundreds of the Stratford for duties in record shops but the larger, more exotic models didn't sell. For instance, we stocked and dem'd the TD10 and TD12 from the Dimension range but despite lots of mag coverage and good reviews, they just didn't sell and we eventually moved the demo models on at a loss.
Similar situation with the present Prestige range which I stocked for three years. I had on demo the Turnberry, Kensington and the model above, name of which escapes me just now. I dem'd them and people liked them but invariably bought something else or went out and bought vintage Tannoy from E-Bay. They are a difficult sell, probably because of the styling and the fact that vintage can be better and a lot cheaper.
Unfortunately, when Tannoy was taken over by the present foreign company, the backup disappeared along with the great, enthusiastic rep we had. I eventually moved on my demo speakers at a loss again.
The range from the Kensington up with 'Pepper pot' and Alnico magnet is a fair bit better than the lower models and based on my experience of trying to sell, should be available at a good price.
I stocked Tannoy for many years and sold hundreds of the Stratford for duties in record shops but the larger, more exotic models didn't sell. For instance, we stocked and dem'd the TD10 and TD12 from the Dimension range but despite lots of mag coverage and good reviews, they just didn't sell and we eventually moved the demo models on at a loss.
Similar situation with the present Prestige range which I stocked for three years. I had on demo the Turnberry, Kensington and the model above, name of which escapes me just now. I dem'd them and people liked them but invariably bought something else or went out and bought vintage Tannoy from E-Bay. They are a difficult sell, probably because of the styling and the fact that vintage can be better and a lot cheaper.
Unfortunately, when Tannoy was taken over by the present foreign company, the backup disappeared along with the great, enthusiastic rep we had. I eventually moved on my demo speakers at a loss again.
The range from the Kensington up with 'Pepper pot' and Alnico magnet is a fair bit better than the lower models and based on my experience of trying to sell, should be available at a good price.
You've hit the nail on the head David, the modern Prestige range are simply too expensive compared with the (better) vintage equivalents. Having said that and with your last comment ringing loud in my ears, not a single retailer I've spoken to who stocks the Tannoys are willing to give any significant discount (a few hundred quid at best) even though they're not from stock but to order. You'd think in the circumstances that it would be better to make a few hundred quid for a phone call and a bit of paperwork than to make nothing at all and lose a sale?
The range from the Kensington up with 'Pepper pot' and Alnico magnet is a fair bit better than the lower models and based on my experience of trying to sell, should be available at a good price.
Completely agree, Dave. The Pepper Pot tweeters and Alnico magnets, quite simply, are a fundamental part of the TRUE Tannoy DC sound, so for that reason the Kensingtion SEs are really where it starts with 'proper' modern DC Tannoys.
For that reason, anyone contemplating buying Turnberrys, as you allude to, should save their money and look out for a deal on used/ex-demo Kensingtions, as sonically, the difference between both is really *that* marked, and is one of the reasons why vintage Monitor Gold drivers offer the highest SPPV option, simply because Alnico magnets and Pepper Pot tweeters are automatically part of the equation!
As Marco says, fashion dictates lean floor standers, multi-driver arrays etc. Whilst I don't agree with Marco that these can't do scale (many can) their main problem remains phase accuracy and complex crossover networks.
Although I agree partly with where you're coming from, Paul, what I meant was that, to my ears (and I've owned plenty), no slim floorstanders with multiple arrays of teeny-weeny drive units, can produce the sheer gut-wrenching scale (the type which can pressurise a room and make you almost feel queasy) of any speaker featuring 15" drive units in wide-baffle cabinets, such as my Lockwood Majors - and for that matter, some JBL K2s I heard recently at a friend's house.
You can strap as many 6 or 8-inch drive units to tall, skinny, cabinets as you like, and you'll get deep bass, for sure, but that's an entirely different thing from bombastic, realistic SCALE, and so in comparison with speakers with wide-baffle cabinets ('wardrobes' as you referred to them), with ONE 15" driver per cabinet, they will always sound 'small'. You need to shift AIR!
It's a difficult effect to put into words, but those that have heard what I'm describing will know exactly where I'm coming from :exactly:
Marco.
Completely agree, Dave. The Pepper Pot tweeters and Alnico magnets, quite simply, are a fundamental part of the TRUE Tannoy DC sound, so for that reason the Kensingtion SEs are really where it starts with 'proper' modern DC Tannoys.
For that reason, anyone contemplating buying Turnberrys, as you allude to, should save their money and look out for a deal on used/ex-demo Kensingtions, as sonically, the difference between both is really *that* marked, and is one of the reasons why vintage Monitor Gold drivers offer the highest SPPV option, simply because Alnico magnets and Pepper Pot tweeters are automatically part of the equation!
Although I agree partly with where you're coming from, Paul, what I meant was that, to my ears (and I've owned plenty), no slim floorstanders with multiple arrays of teeny-weeny drive units, can produce the sheer gut-wrenching scale (the type which can pressurise a room and make you almost feel queasy) of any speaker featuring 15" drive units in wide-baffle cabinets, such as my Lockwood Majors - and for that matter, some JBL K2s I heard recently at a friend's house.
You can strap as many 6 or 8-inch drive units to tall, skinny, cabinets as you like, and you'll get deep bass, for sure, but that's an entirely different thing from bombastic, realistic SCALE, and so in comparison with speakers with wide-baffle cabinets ('wardrobes' as you referred to them), with ONE 15" driver per cabinet, they will always sound 'small'. You need to shift AIR!
It's a difficult effect to put into words, but those that have heard what I'm describing will know exactly where I'm coming from :exactly:
Marco.
I know exactly where you're coming from Marco having owned Horning Agathon Ultimates, with each very large cabinet housing not one but TWO 12 inch bass units:eek: They plumbed the depths like few others. Can multi-array long throw 6 inch units get close? Yes is the answer. Does it have the same effect? No I'd say. it never sounds as natural and at lower volumes especially you do lose that sense of scale.
Kensingtons would be nice. New prices are out the window with the fairies though. Much better sense to think about Lockwood Audio's Majors IMHO. In fact, it's a no-brainer since they could be "upgraded" at a later date with little reds, or if it has to be, then MGs.
]I know exactly where you're coming from Marco having owned Horning Agathon Ultimates, with each very large cabinet housing not one but TWO 12 inch bass units:eek:
It can be good, but I still prefer the bass you get from one DC 15-incher.
Much better sense to think about Lockwood Audio's Majors IMHO. In fact, it's a no-brainer since they could be "upgraded" at a later date with little reds, or if it has to be, then MGs.
Absolutely right. The other advantage of the vintage drive units is that they use paper cones, and so even huge 15" drivers can move very fast, ensuring rapid transient response and excellent timing, for big drive units, which is also one of the reasons why vintage Tannoys sound rather different from the modern Prestige range, using the stiffer, heavier, cones made by Tannoy today ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
07-10-2012, 10:37
I know exactly where you're coming from Marco having owned Horning Agathon Ultimates, with each very large cabinet housing not one but TWO 12 inch bass units:eek: They plumbed the depths like few others. Can multi-array long throw 6 inch units get close? Yes is the answer. Does it have the same effect? No I'd say. it never sounds as natural and at lower volumes especially you do lose that sense of scale.
Kensingtons would be nice. New prices are out the window with the fairies though. Much better sense to think about Lockwood Audio's Majors IMHO. In fact, it's a no-brainer since they could be "upgraded" at a later date with little reds, or if it has to be, then MGs.
Hi Paul,
I can also offer my experience on the Kensington's after having owned a pair now for around 2 years etc, They are very capable of large scale etc, while still holding it together in the mid range, they are lightning fast on dynamics without the fatigue factor you get from many other speakers in that regard, also, they are not particularly fussy about room placement, [something i find with all the dual concentric Tannoy's i have heard] i am well aware of the Honk you refer to, refering back to the Glenairs etc,however, this is not as easily detectable in the Turnberry's, i am not sure why this is, maybe its down to the size diffrences of the cones, and therefore the cross-over point, as i said earlier, your best bet is to listen to the ones your interested in and make your mind up from there.
Hope this helps. :)
Anthony,TD...
hifi_dave
07-10-2012, 10:54
I'm not a fan of multiple small drivers attempting to do bass and mid at the same time. I know the theory that the total surface area of the small drivers is large enough to produce deep bass but the reality is that the little drivers are throwing themselves around, back and forth and not really doing bass or even clean mid. IMO.
Far better to have a larger driver - 8 inches or more but that necessitates a wide cabinet which is no longer fashionable. Anything beyond a couple of matchsticks in the corners is deemed an eyesore and not acceptable..:eek:
anthonyTD
07-10-2012, 11:13
I'm not a fan of multiple small drivers attempting to do bass and mid at the same time. I know the theory that the total surface area of the small drivers is large enough to produce deep bass but the reality is that the little drivers are throwing themselves around, back and forth and not really doing bass or even clean mid. IMO.
Far better to have a larger driver - 8 inches or more but that necessitates a wide cabinet which is no longer fashionable. Anything beyond a couple of matchsticks in the corners is deemed an eyesore and not acceptable..:eek:
I tend to agree Dave,
As you say, with smaller drivers, in order to attempt real bass reproduction, the cone excursions are so large that the speech coil is often running out of its magnetic field!
With Large cones like the 15" monitor reds, golds etc, on similar music material, the cones are hardly moving!
A...
Stratmangler
07-10-2012, 11:19
That's why I absolutely hate the fashion today for pencil-thin floorstanders with pityful arrays of teensy-weensy 6 or 8-inch drives, trying to reproduce genuine deep bass and realistic SCALE - it just ain't gonna happen!! :doh:
You've obviously not heard the Edingdales then.
You'd be very, very surprised what a line array of series/parallel drivers can do :eyebrows:
Far better to have a larger driver - 8 inches or more but that necessitates a wide cabinet which is no longer fashionable. Anything beyond a couple of matchsticks in the corners is deemed an eyesore and not acceptable..:eek:
Indeed, and blame it on 'WAF', or more specifically, the subservient males in this country who meekly give into it, simply for a quiet life! :doh: :rolleyes:
Marco.
hifi_dave
07-10-2012, 11:27
A large driver can move the air with ease, giving you that satisfying thump effortlessly and cleanly. Somehow the multiple little drivers still sound lightweight and strained, with little bass at low volume levels.
The ultimate, multiple small driver array I ever heard was the ProAc Celefane back in the early 80's. A whole panel of 48, 1 inch tweeters, which had great transparency but not a lot of bass weight and because of the limited excursion, not a lot of volume. It never went into production..:doh:
You've obviously not heard the Edingdales then.
You'd be very, very surprised what a line array of series/parallel drivers can do :eyebrows:
Sure, Chris. I heard the Edingdales (briefly) at Scalford, and know where you're coming from. It's a very different sound from big Tannoys, though, and as with anything else, comes down to personal taste.
I liked them (and think that Colin has done an amazing job), but have never really got on fully with ribbon tweeters, especially when being used to the presentation of horn tweeters and the 'point source' effect of dual-concentrics, and as such their exceptional imaging qualities, which IMO, no conventional floorstanders can match.
However, as ever, no speaker is perfect, so one must simply choose one's best balance of compromises :)
Marco.
A large driver can move the air with ease, giving you that satisfying thump effortlessly and cleanly. Somehow the multiple little drivers still sound lightweight and strained, with little bass at low volume levels.
Spot on, Dave :cool:
Ultimately, you can't beat the laws of physics! Anthony is also absolutely correct, here:
As you say, with smaller drivers, in order to attempt real bass reproduction, the cone excursions are so large that the speech coil is often running out of its magnetic field!
With Large cones like the 15" monitor reds, golds etc, on similar music material, the cones are hardly moving!
Indeed - and the "hardly moving" bit is very significant, in terms of why bass from big, single, drive units is ALWAYS more convincing that that created by multiple arrays of smaller ones.
Marco.
As Marco and others have correctly pointed out, the Turnberry's are indeed a price/performance/size compromise, and the next step up the Tannoy ladder is the Kensington, which is approx double the price of the Turnberry :eek: My listening room also doubles as our lounge, and the 18" width of the Turnberry is about as large as i could go to. Personally, i love the looks of the Turnberry, and the walnut finish blends quite nicely with our natural oak furniture, but if i had a dedicated listening room i think the Lockwood Majors would be a no-brainer! Let us know how you get on.
Right folks: My report!
After a marathon day with not that far short of 5 hours driving in total and two stops, I can give you my impressions. please note that these are my own personal views and in no way reflect on what other enthiusiasts and manufacturers may claim.
1st Stop: Turnberry SE's - Location...somewhere in the Twilghlight Zone (do-do-do-do) North of London,; John's system (non AoS member)
These were in a room of equal proportions to my own set up more nearfield (within a few m) and were on the end of a long chain of fairly exotic components (probably £35Ks worth) including Audio Note gear and a rather tasty Air Tight EL34 amp.
I had several album tracks played (these I took with me) for comparisons sake:
St Celia's Mass (Gounod) (Barbara Hendrix...soprano);
James Blake "James Blake" album (track 6);
Robert Plant "Band of Joy" Track 3 side 3.
We listened to more music but these were my comparison tracks as they had between them a lot going on and I am very familiar with them.
First and foremost, the Turnberrys exhibited a "wall" of sound, even at low volumes which clearly placed instruments in the mix without ever sounding "boxy" or in any way constrained. the bass quality was excellent. Crisp and well defined without boom and with genuine extension. James Blake Track 6 drops to about 35 Hz in places (synth bass) and unlike the SHL5's they played the bass lines clearly, with real definition to the notes and without a hint of roll off. The upper treble detail was crisp without being forward or aggressive.
After playing all album tracks it became evident that the above qualities shone through no-matter what the recording but the weakness was the the UPPER mids had a slight indistinct rough edge...ever so slight but there. There was a little colouration in the mix, but certainly not annoyingly so and it improved when the crossover treble controls were dropped by -3dB. The mid range was more recessed than the SHL5s and slightly less distinct because of that upper nasality but the overall effect was far more balanced, thanks to better HF detail and FAR better LF detail and extension. The overall "non boxiness" appealed and at low volumes it was delightful to get such accurate and realistic bass. I like the Turnberrys a lot. they are a cracking speaker and ones that I could very happily live with.
Onto the 2nd Stop: 30 miles later: Tannoy 15 inch MGs in GRF cabs (big buggers...about the same size as Lockwoods) - AoS's very own montesquieu's system!
Everything described above applies to this set up, but with some notable differences. Bass whilst no more forward or better defined but had larger scale and harmonic content which shaped the overall sonic picture quite favourably. Midrange was much improved over the Turnberrys and treble detail a smidgen cleaner. The crossovers were new £500 affairs but there was lots of other system adjustment (wont go into detail). The choral works were a complete joy. They showed the SHL5s a clean pair of heals in mid range transparency and upper detail cleanliness as well as in bass and imaging. What I had thought of as sibilance on track 3 of St Celia's Mass turned out to be a French Horn (stage right, at least on the recording) getting all raspy and high. I genuinely have never heard that before! Bass...oh dear. Brilliant on some CD recordings but vague and woolly on the vinyl set up until I pointed out that the output impedance on Tom's (very useful) fancy cart loading box of tricks was way too high. We dropped it down to 20KOhms and the bass snapped into focus. Tom has since contacted me to explain that the cabs were moved too close to the rear walls and by pulling them out, the bass has improved and the boominess disappeared.
Tom (montesquieu) explained just how much work had gone into the amp and crossover to get things this far (£2K in all, just in mods) and was left with the distinct impression that whilst the older units can reward like few others in a natural and effortless wall of balanced sound, it takes great pain for EACH set of loudspeakers and living room space to play with crossovers and amplifiers in order to achieve this. They are much more fussy than the newer prestige range which are far more "plug and play".
Conclusions:
1. I drove a bloody long way!
2. SHL5s can have an apparent mid forwardness mainly due to indistinct and slightly rolled of bass and to my ears, a poor treble quality by comparison with well sorted older Tannoys, but they are still very good. I'm talking subtleties and not night and day.
3. the newer Tannoy Prestige range is very good, straight out of the box and not as amp/room fussy as older models
4. Newer Prestige Tannoys do have an upper mid "honk" which adds distortion to some vocals but it is liveable with IMHO and their overall balance is still very much high quality Tannoy sound.
5. SHL5s major in clear midrange but lose out IMHO in other areas compared to the Prestige range and older Tannoys, particularly bass and scale. However the mid range is what many like, so for broadcast work, quiet home listening, jazz and vocals, the SHL5s are near on perfect and for most would count as their last loudspeaker.
For full on orchestral/choral works, Tannoys rock!
I still feel like I have an itch to scratch so although I'm sure that I might just regret doing this, it's likely that I will be moving on the SHL5s and matching stands. pm if interested!
Oh...I also made another convert of Tom to Choral. That's two converts now (Jerry was the first!)
Now out for a well earned pint.:cool:
.
The Black Adder
08-10-2012, 09:06
Ahh... good work, Paul.
Sounds like you heard the same thing as I did with the Tannoys when I changed from the SHL5's. Although I do still like the SHL5's very much but I'm hooked to the sheer scale of the Tannoy sound.. I too have heard Tom's system. The GRF's do sound well smart. His room is really quite fitting for them too I felt.
I bought my Lockwood cabs from Tom, nice chap.
Hi Paul,
Sounds like you had a great time and learned a few things, which is what it's all about! I agree pretty much with your findings :)
They showed the SHL5s a clean pair of heals in mid range transparency and upper detail cleanliness as well as in bass and imaging. What I had thought of as sibilance on track 3 of St Celia's Mass turned out to be a French Horn (stage right, at least on the recording) getting all raspy and high. I genuinely have never heard that before!
Hehehe... I've had a similar thing happen often when people visit my place who are used to hearing music through more conventional speakers. 15MGs, when properly sorted with top-notch modern crossovers, reveal everything in the mix, as they are genuine studio monitors, but their ruthlessly revealing nature isn't at the expense of musicality, unlike can be the case with some of today's studio monitors.
That is also why I love my Celestion 66s, which are similarly revealing, but offer a different take on music, to my Tannoys. I just love the brutal honesty offered by both! It's one of the reasons why I'm able to detect the subtlest of differences when making adjustments to my system, such as changing plugs on cables or even analysing the sonic effect of different types of solder! With the 15MGs, the system serves as being both an analytical tool and a wide-open open window onto the music, making for long and very enjoyable listening sessions.
What did you think of Tom's Tube Distinctions/AoS valve amp? It's a Chinese Puresound P/P design, heavily modified by Anthony Matthews, who's one of our trade members here.
Marco.
Tannoys: Part II
Well, for balance, I invited Jerry over today and he brought with him his Parasound amp, as it was taking the day off from bump starting the local power station :lol:
We hooked up the Harbeths and compared the 7R to the Parasound. To the credit of the Croft amps, they compared very favourably; the difference was not one of those "night and day" moments.
The point of this was to see if better bass definition could be had with the SHL5s. What the Parasound (250w/ch) brought to the table when used with the Croft micro25 pre was better clarity and slightly better definition of the bass, with sligtly more obvious bass note decay. Note the repeated use of the word "slight".
Conclusions: The SHL5s are a wonderful loudspeaker, and for many, would be the last speaker they'd ever want to own. They do most things quite well and IMHO they exel at human voice reproduction, are great with acoustic, jazz, blues and light orchestral music. The play rock well too and you tend to forget the speakers and get your toes tapping to whaever spins up.
However, the itch I thought needed scratching still needs scratching :drugs: and I find the crispness of bass and balanced presentation of the Turnberrys infectious as indeed on a larger scale the GRFs. They are coloured and aren't IMHo in the league of the SHL5s in some areas, but do things differently enough (such as full scale orchestral) to tip their charms in favour of what I like...more effortless scale even at lower volumes. Swapping amps and fiddling with position didn't change things appreciably with the Harbeths, so great as they are, they are now up for sale. the ad will be appearing soon. rare to get a new set complete with custom stands in the more expensive finish come up for grabs, so someone is going to get a bargain!
Result.
Just agreed a deal on some Tannoys. Now need to make room for them so selling the SHL5s, stands and cables all in for a silly knock down price:doh:
Result.
Just agreed a deal on some Tannoys.
Which ones: Turnberrys or 15MGs? :)
Marco.
Which ones: Turnberrys or 15MGs? :)
Marco.
Was offered the Lockwoods but on reflection, we have to live in the room too, and measuring up we could get the Lockwoods in no problem, but I think they'd dominate too much, so I've settled on the Turnberrys and agreed a deal. They can't be compared with 10inch DC 'speakers of old. The cabinets are better for a start (Tannoy didn't do cabs very well in the past and they'd be the first to agree!) and the driver design extracts greater and cleaner bass than the older 10 inchers. Married to a not insubstantial cab volume, they're not the compromise you might think. I was mightily impressed by them. I have already penned a design for some American black Walnut short stands to raise them 150mm (needed for our listening position) and will have those completed in a week or so. They will be designed to exactly match the profile of the Turnberrys so it looks like an extension of the 'speaker.
Hi Paul,
Nice one - you've obviously made the best overall choice for your circumstances, so congrats on acquiring a very nice pair of speakers and on joining the Tannoy club. Enjoy, and we want to see some pics when you have your new babies in situ :cool:
Marco.
Cheers Marco, will post pics in due course...depends how long the SHL5's hang around now, as the option is to box them up and put them in storage if they don't go this week. I'd rather sell to forum members than use the dreaded Ebay for speakers of this quality. They know they'd be getting a great deal and great speakers and I'd know I was dealing with a genuine buyer.
Really looking forward to getting the Tannoys in place now.
In answer to your earlier question (just picked up that I hadn't answered it) I was pretty impressed with Tom's Puresound amp. Anthony's done a great job. Ironically, my own Lumley ST40 (which I sold a few months back) was offered back to me recently, and I can't think of a better amp for Tannoys. Push-pull? Check. Sounds great? Check. Hand builtusing very high quality transformers? Check. Rebuilt from the chassis up a few years back with high quality internals (I had that done by the original designer/builder). had I known then I'd be going to Tannoys I'd have broken the chaps arm for it back:doh:
Was offered the Lockwoods but on reflection, we have to live in the room too, and measuring up we could get the Lockwoods in no problem, but I think they'd dominate too much, so I've settled on the Turnberrys and agreed a deal. They can't be compared with 10inch DC 'speakers of old. The cabinets are better for a start (Tannoy didn't do cabs very well in the past and they'd be the first to agree!) and the driver design extracts greater and cleaner bass than the older 10 inchers. Married to a not insubstantial cab volume, they're not the compromise you might think. I was mightily impressed by them. I have already penned a design for some American black Walnut short stands to raise them 150mm (needed for our listening position) and will have those completed in a week or so. They will be designed to exactly match the profile of the Turnberrys so it looks like an extension of the 'speaker.
Congrats Paul, i'm sure you'll be very pleased with your Turnberry's. I would be very interested in your stands, that's something i was thinking about, but afaik there is nothing available commercially.
The Black Adder
09-10-2012, 06:38
Nice one my son. Great speakers!
They can really boogie!
Congrats Paul, i'm sure you'll be very pleased with your Turnberry's. I would be very interested in your stands, that's something i was thinking about, but afaik there is nothing available commercially.
That's the problem, so I am going to add speaker stands for the prestige (smaller range) to the RFC products. I have a cunning design penned up. Checked the timber priced this morning and (gulp) not cheap for high quality solid Walnut, but its got to look right!
Nice one Paul i'm sure you won't be dissapointed , the stands look interesting and probably look a lot better than the concrete blocks i used :lol:.
If you are interested in a Pure sound 2A3 push pull give me a shout as i know for one, i was impressed when i tried it on my Tannoys
Thanks Jon
I'll stick with the Croft amps but may give Glenn a shout to see of the power amp should be optimised for the Tannoys. My thinking is quality over quantity so perhaps having work on the power amp to lower output but lift quality of power supplies etc even further.
jandl100
09-10-2012, 19:19
Amps -- Hmm :hmm: -- I'll take my Mini-T amp round to Paul's once he's got his Tannoys - it sounded damn fine on 10 inch Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabs! :)
Amps -- Hmm :hmm: -- I'll take my Mini-T amp round to Paul's once he's got his Tannoys - it sounded damn fine on 10 inch Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabs! :)
I look forward to a mini-T v's Croft bake off Jerry but suspect I know which I'll prefer....NOS valve loveliness v's op-amps? :ner:
jandl100
09-10-2012, 20:13
Tee hee - maybe - maybe not!
I must confess I preferred my American solid state muscle amp to your Croft loveliness on the Harbeths in every way! ;)
Tee hee - maybe - maybe not!
I must confess I preferred my American solid state muscle amp to your Croft loveliness on the Harbeths in every way! ;)
I have to agree with that Jerry. Cleaner sounding with slightly better bass definition, but not as "night and day" as I was expecting. I think that the outcome would have been the same nomatter what 50w/ch amp was up front, as bolting on a power amp with the reserves of the Parasound clearly will make a difference. Most speakers I've ever owned, even highly efficient ones, have benefited from powerful amplification. It allows better transient behaviour and headroom and the Halo has massive speaker damping ability!
The Croft amps are still a class act though;)
That's the problem, so I am going to add speaker stands for the prestige (smaller range) to the RFC products. I have a cunning design penned up. Checked the timber priced this morning and (gulp) not cheap for high quality solid Walnut, but its got to look right!
If the quality of the other wooden furniture on your website is anything to go by, these Tannoy stands should be worth waiting for.
If the quality of the other wooden furniture on your website is anything to go by, these Tannoy stands should be worth waiting for.
Thankyou Andrew!
As it happens, I'm meeting with RFC's cabinet maker this morning to run through the designs and start making some trial versions. The final ones are a few weeks off and will be worth waiting for ;)
Yes indeedy! Looking forward to seeing those :)
Regarding the Croft vs. Parasound thing, which Croft amps have you got Paul? IMO, the real gems in the Croft range are the preamps. The power amps are very good, but not quite in the same class as their (quite exceptional) preamps. I put this down to the power amps being a hybrid design, using MOSFETS with a valve input stage, rather than being out-and-out valve designs. That type of principle works very well in their preamps, but less so, IMO, with their power amps.
Quite simply, in order to compete with Jerry's Parasound 'muscle amp', in terms of transient response, dynamic impact and overall headroom, you need a big push-pull Class A valve amp, using the likes of KT88 or KT120 tubes and massive, top-notch, mains and output transformers, which combine to provide the required 'clout'! :hairmetal:
In that respect, I think that the likes of my Tube Distinctions Copper amp would be more able to give the Parasound a run for its money, in terms of the things that 'big-boy' sand amps do best, as well as also throwing some thermionic lurveliness into the equation, for good measure! If I can make the bake-off at Martin T's this weekend (where Jerry's Parasound is going up against Martin's Chord behemoth), I'll get the opportunity to demonstrate this, if I bring the Copper amp down with me :cool:
A couple of pics of the beastie in question... In situ in my listening room:
http://imageshack.us/a/img822/2935/copperamp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/copperamp.jpg/)
The last time Martin heard it in his system, along with my (heavily modified) Croft preamp:
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/1681/rack20marco2020100228.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/211/rack20marco2020100228.jpg/)
Since then it's had a bigger mains transformer fitted, from Sowter, been upgraded from 30W to 50WPC Class A, had Clarity Cap MR power supply caps fitted, KT88s changed to KT120s and GZ34 rectifiers changed to 5U4GBs, new NOS Brimar CV1988 driver valves, Cardas solid-copper speaker terminals, Furutech phonos and IEC socket fitted, along with dual-mono variable feedback control.
Yes, it's even better now than it was before....! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'm using the Croft Micro25 pre with the Series 7R power amp Marco. I agree with you. the Micro25, even though not the "full blown" version is about as good a pre as I've ever heard. I have tried valve rolling with it (NOS of course) but TBH there's very litle difference between any ECC83 put in it and the system is revealing enough to distinguish differences. This accords with Glenns' views I think so is a circuit design thing.
The power is very good and punchy, but lacks ultimate precision IMHO. Thats a compliment by the way as for the money, there's not a lot out there to touch the 7R.
My own preference if using all valve would be pure class A for lower distortion. The valve type may impact output but sound is something determined more by the circut design and quality of power supplies and output transformers. Big money for something really good though compared with a good SS. However, in SS format, and for the money, I still rate the Quad 909 as one of the best in class having tried one with a range of pre-amps and speakers. It was remarkably close to the Parasound. Consummate ease of power deliver with bags in reserve, very polished detail and high definition of things like the leading edge of bass notes and very high S/N for low noisefloor. Also vanishingly low distortion across the frequency band.
The Tannoys are on order and will be with me in 4 to 5 weeks. At present they are probably still in timber sheets waiting to be cut and the electronics in bits in boxes somewhere! I can see the elderly gents wearing half moon glasses and spotless blue aprons with a flat pencil behind their ears approaching the timber stacks right now...
jandl100
10-10-2012, 12:03
To be fair to the Croft power amp, my Parasound is the best sounding amp I've come across in all my years of boxswapping and dozens and dozens of fine amps of all types have been heard.
It's not just about power and headroom, though, even on very low level music where just a watt or two is required the Parasound still excels, imho.
I meet up this Saturday at MartinT's place to see how the big Para does with his Ushers. Mucho looking forward to that. :)
Hi Paul,
I'm using the Croft Micro25 pre with the Series 7R power amp Marco. I agree with you. the Micro25, even though not the "full blown" version is about as good a pre as I've ever heard. I have tried valve rolling with it (NOS of course) but TBH there's very litle difference between any ECC83 put in it and the system is revealing enough to distinguish differences. This accords with Glenns' views I think so is a circuit design thing.
I completely agree. Good circuit design is far more influential and important than the effects of tube-rolling. In comparison, swapping valves can only ever cause subtle changes, usually in terms of tonality, although some also allow an amp to deliver greater punch and drive.
However, the effects of tube-rolling are rather more obvious in Croft's earlier high-end preamps, such as the Charisma X, which I use, that feature the bigger octal 6SL7 type valves. These are a different ball-game to ECC83s, and have a much bigger, richer, more 'finessed' sound. Playing around with different types of those has a rather more profound effect on the sound.
A sneaky peak inside my preamp, showing various NOS 1940s and 1950s-vintage 6SL7s, at the back, and the (superb, best I've heard) SCR Teflon Foil coupling capacitors (shown in green) at the front:
http://imageshack.us/a/img42/7541/img6055n.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/img6055n.jpg/)
My own preference if using all valve would be pure class A for lower distortion. The valve type may impact output but sound is something determined more by the circut design and quality of power supplies and output transformers. Big money for something really good though compared with a good SS.
Again, I totally agree. For me, Class A (when done *really* well) is where its at, no matter whether we're talking about SS or valve amps, as the way in which it reproduces music is truly magical!
Big money? Yes, but perhaps not as much as you might think... The Copper amp (hand-built and hard-wired from scratch, featuring hand-wound transformers and the highest quality components) does all that, and it can be bought brand new for £5k ;)
Inside the beastie:
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/5280/insideofthecopperampe.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/insideofthecopperampe.jpg/)
You should really come up sometime and have a listen! :cool:
Marco.
Out of my price range. I'd probably go for a big class A SS power amp at a quarter of the price ;-)
Lol - if I was going SS, I'd probably have the Usher Reference R-1.5:
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/6444/usher20r1520amp20250x72.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/usher20r1520amp20250x72.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/a/img193/3568/usher1m.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/usher1m.jpg/) http://imageshack.us/a/img28/2600/usher2l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/usher2l.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/a/img827/458/usher3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/usher3.jpg/)
Deco Audio are selling it for £1500: http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_power_amplifiers.html
I've heard the beastie, and it's stunning! :eek:
Marco.
To do it properly, it needs to be a PROPER Class A, a stonking big SET, something like the big ol' 211's, no push-pull. Very dynamic sounding, great headroom. Had a few push-pull valve amps including a Lumley ST40 and a Consonance Cyber 10s which claimed to be Class A, but they were only Class A for the first Watt or so before the circuit behaved (push-pull) class AB. Whatever, they sounded good. Less interested in the circuit design (I'll leave that to those who design the things) and more interested in what they sound like.
Jerry's Parasound Halo is one of the best power amps I've come across in the sonic stakes. Neutral, massive headroom and portrays micro detail like few others.
The Quad 909 I particularly liked, despite its dissenters. Not unlike the Parasound in character but from what I can remember, more "3-D" in presentation. Not ultimately as detailed but close.
The Lumley ST40 was the very best of the valve amps I had and one of the best amps I've owned. No relation of the St70, a far better circuit design, tweaked by Ben Carter for John Jefferies who owned the Lumley Brand. It brought music alive in my system. Sold it to help pay some stock bills (even though it was one of only 10 ever built in the better mk1 guise). We all do silly things.
The Croft pre I'd describe as outstanding at the price point and would recommend it to anyone without hesitation (25R even better I'm told). The Series 7R is ok and reasonable value. It does punch above its rated output and is relatively polished (refined...low distortion, good S/N and channel separation and gives music a nice depth) but there are more refined power amps out there and you do need to be careful not to switch inputs on the pre without turning the volume (controls) down to avoid popping fuses all the time in the power amp.
Hi Paul,
To do it properly, it needs to be a PROPER Class A, a stonking big SET, something like the big ol' 211's, no push-pull.
I know what you mean, but you *can* have proper Class A, with a P/P amp. I've heard big 211 SET amps, and whilst they're very good, I still wouldn't swap them for my copper amp, which is also a true Pure Class A design. Read here, for more on the design of the Copper amp: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/custom.htm
Have a read at this article too, which explains some of the common misconceptions you've alluded to: http://www.aikenamps.com/ClassA.htm
...noting this bit in particular:
A class A audio amplifier can be either single-ended or push-pull. Now, you might be thinking, how can a push-pull amplifier be class A? Doesn't one side amplify half the waveform and the other side amplify the other half? Isn't this why we use a phase splitter?
These are common misconceptions. You can, indeed have a true class A amplifier that operates in push-pull mode. Amplifier class has absolutely nothing to do with output stage topology. If the output tubes on either side of a push-pull pair are biased in class A (halfway between cutoff and saturation), then the current in each side will still flow for the full 360 degrees of the input cycle, just in opposing directions. As one tube's current increases from the midpoint, or idle, bias current, the other tube's current is decreasing by an equal amount.
The output transformer sums these oppositely-phased currents to produce the output waveform in the secondary winding. As one side reaches saturation, the other side reaches cutoff, just as they would in a single-ended class A amplifier. Neither side cuts off at the full, unclipped output power of the amplifier. The output power of a push-pull class A amplifier is exactly twice the output power of a single-ended class A amplifier operating under the same conditions of plate voltage, bias, and effective load impedance.
:)
Marco.
Hi Paul,
I know what you mean, but you *can* have proper Class A, with a P/P amp. I've heard big 211 SET amps, and whilst they're very good, I still wouldn't swap them for my copper amp, which is also a true Pure Class A design. Read here, for more on the design of the Copper amp: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/custom.htm
Have a read at this article too, which explains some of the common misconceptions you've alluded to: http://www.aikenamps.com/ClassA.htm
...noting this bit in particular:
:)
Marco.
I know what you mean Marco and was just being provocative :ner: and purist about Class A (I do understand each of the topologies). I have owned and heard both but the sweetest was single ended. Best I heard was a Horning Sati 520 SET. 12w of SET gloriousness.
jandl100
11-10-2012, 05:42
Jerry's Parasound Halo is one of the best power amps I've come across in the sonic stakes. Neutral, massive headroom and portrays micro detail like few others.
The Quad 909 I particularly liked, despite its dissenters. Not unlike the Parasound in character but from what I can remember, more "3-D" in presentation. Not ultimately as detailed but close.
Coo - that's a cool reviewlet of my amp, Paul. :thumbsup:
So the Quad 909 might be better than the Para in terms of 3D? Blimey - you should hear what the Para can do with my MBLs and my Bushmaster DAC in terms of 3D imaging! :wowzer:
Hi Paul,
Lol - yeah, now we're getting down to the difference in sonic presentation between SE and P/P, for somewhat different reasons... SE does sound 'sweeter'. I like both (when done well), but prefer P/P, as I need the extra 'balls' it gives when playing rock music at realistic levels! :eyebrows: :fingers: :fingers:
Marco.
Hi Paul,
Lol - yeah, now we're getting down to the difference in sonic presentation between SE and P/P, for somewhat different reasons... SE does sound 'sweeter'. I like both (when done well), but prefer P/P, as I need the extra 'balls' it gives when playing rock music at realistic levels! :eyebrows: :fingers: :fingers:
Marco.
Big sensitive speakers (100dB/1w plus) and 10w SET rocks pretty darned well! Yes, for most set ups, P-P's where it's at, agreed. SET, when played well within it's optimal operating envelope does have a sweetness few can match and very low distortion (unless pushed).
Coo - that's a cool reviewlet of my amp, Paul. :thumbsup:
So the Quad 909 might be better than the Para in terms of 3D? Blimey - you should hear what the Para can do with my MBLs and my Bushmaster DAC in terms of 3D imaging! :wowzer:
Its difficult (and most probably VERY unreliable) to ever quote from memory Jerry, especially when it comes to my own! In fairness, the system using the 909 was nothing like as revealing as yours (Proac 2000 Ref8 Signatures/Rega P25/Rega preamp and Quad 909) but I compared several power amps and only the Quad gave me that :wow: moment.
jandl100
11-10-2012, 06:04
I certainly can't and won't compete on the techno-babble side of things (I cherish my ignorance :eyebrows:) but from a listening pov, you do need to be careful when 'sweetness' just becomes smooth rolled-off rez-reduction. Real music is seldom 'sweet', ime, and the closer you get physically to the musicians the less sweet it gets - and I like to sit close up! ;)
I certainly can't and won't compete on the techno-babble side of things (I cherish my ignorance :eyebrows:) but from a listening pov, you do need to be careful when 'sweetness' just becomes smooth rolled-off rez-reduction. Real music is seldom 'sweet', ime, and the closer you get physically to the musicians the less sweet it gets - and I like to sit close up! ;)
Yup, quite right Jerry but on the flip side, SET has become a byword stereotype for low res, which it most certainly is not. You must have listened to a really good SET-up(doh!)? It can rock, can have the resolution but at the same time there can be something alluring about the presentation which only SET seems to manage. Not ultimately for me (I don't have pockets deep enough for a really good SET) but I have enjoyed some of the better quality SET systems I've listened to.
jandl100
11-10-2012, 06:29
Yup, quite right Jerry but on the flip side, SET has become a byword stereotype for low res, which it most certainly is not. You must have listened to a really good SET-up(doh!)? It can rock, can have the resolution but at the same time there can be something alluring about the presentation which only SET seems to manage. Not ultimately for me (I don't have pockets deep enough for a really good SET) but I have enjoyed some of the better quality SET systems I've listened to.
Sure - I had a pair of Cary SET 15W monoblocks - fook me, they rocked with any music. Very hi-rez and bundles of presence. Too much so, at times! :eek:
(there's a review in a certain webzine. ;))
But, as you say, SET to some folks is what they (erroneously) call "valve sound" - way too smooth, coloured, gentle .... :nono:
anthonyTD
11-10-2012, 09:26
Hi All,
I would like to add my own comments on the subject of what has been discussed in the latter of this thread, i hope that's ok with you paul.
Biasing an amplifier into class A ie; setting the bias of the output devices to draw the maximum current needed for full desired output does not change the class of the amplifiers output stage, ie push-pull to single ended etc.
Unfortunetly this subject has been debated many times before, and if we allow it here, it will continue to poison an otherwise interesting and informative thread.
A...
Hi All,
I would like to add my own comments on the subject of what has been discussed in the latter of this thread, i hope that's ok with you paul.
Biasing an amplifier into class A ie; setting the bias of the output devices to draw the maximum current needed for full desired output does not change the class of the amplifiers output stage, ie push-pull to single ended etc.
Unfortunetly this subject has been debated many times before, and if we allow it here, it will continue to poison an otherwise interesting and informative thread.
A...
Thank you Anthony, and yes, the chap who rebuilt my (last) valve amp said pretty much exactly the same thing to me a few years back which is what my understanding is based on. The thread has wandered slightly off course (as they do) so in the spirit of getting it back on course............................................ .................................................. ................................................T-minus 4 weeks before the Turnberrys arrive. I'd offer a bakeoff, but the thought of cramming in some lockwood majors and other suitably large Tannoys into my listening room might not be too practical:scratch:
Congrats Paul!
I read this from the yahoo groups site specifically regarding amps for westminsters but interesting i thought, I loved Tom's TD KT88 when he was here, i think its the nicest amp i have heard on my speakers.
I know there are many people who think that low power valve kit is the best
route to take with Tannoys but having now spent nearly 8 years with
Westminster Royals I would have to disagree.
I love valve kit and it can sound stunning and I have tried many different
valve amps including very low power SE's and much higher powered push pull
designs in my music room. They all have two thing in common. They all have a
very slight bias towards the treble end of the frequency spectrum. This in
my view tends to push the image too far out into the room which makes them a
bit 'in your face'. They are also all slightly shy in the bass and lack
control on very heavy low bass such as some 32' organ pedal notes. On some
music they are fabulous but on other large scale music they come up short.
My music philosophy is that a system should be able to cut the mustard on
all types of music and if it cannot do this then it is doing something
wrong. My listening tastes vary from chamber music through large scale
classical stuff to jazz and popular music.
One of the major strengths of the Westminster Royal is the way is produces
bass both quantity and quality, which is hardly surprising given that each
cabinet has a 15" bass unit firing down two 11' folded horns. They are only
6db at 18hz and to me it makes no sense to use an amplifier that is not
capable of fully exploiting this. After much experimentation I have opted to
use Meridian solid state amplification, specifically the GO2 dual mono
control unit and G57 power amplifier (200wpc) connected with DNM solid core
cables (Tannoys love solid core cable) terminated with WBT Nextgen RCA's and
WBT 0600 banana plugs on the LS cables. This combination works stunningly
well across all genres and can make the hairs on the back of my neck stand
on end. I have friends who are keen valve enthusiasts (mainly Audionote) who
are completely blown away by this combination.
I know that this view makes mine a siren voice and I now it is not what you
were expecting to hear, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and
it really does work remarkably well
I'm with you there Simon as with my previous Horning Agathons, they responded far better with a muscular SS feeding them than with any valve amp. It takes a special valve amp to cleanly exploit deep bass with the proper speed, damping and transience. Cheaper route by far IMHO is to bolt on a big power amp. I am tempted to keep the Croft pre (it's a stunner) and I will try the power with the Tannoys, but would also like to try a few SS power amps with it including the 909 which I rate very highly.
PaulStewart
11-10-2012, 15:26
I got a bit lost on this thread:doh: Who is the one talking bollocks about it not being possible for p/p amps to be class A? I have an Art Audio Quintet playing very sweetly in triode mode class A P/P as I type this. Also getting back to the question about which Tannoys.
The link to my article about the Lockwoods on Musicosis says it all. Again I have read criticism of the Majors based on the fact that their porting was devised, as with all the old Lockwood designs, before the Thiel/Small parameters and without their benefit. Quite right and that's why Lockwoods don't suffer from one note bass the way a lot of modern reflex designs do:)
I would always stick to my MGs for choice but, the new Majors with the HPDs did sound good:)
regards to all
BTW see the first of our reader comps on musicosis.co.uk
chris@panteg
11-10-2012, 15:47
I'm with you there Simon as with my previous Horning Agathons, they responded far better with a muscular SS feeding them than with any valve amp. It takes a special valve amp to cleanly exploit deep bass with the proper speed, damping and transience. Cheaper route by far IMHO is to bolt on a big power amp. I am tempted to keep the Croft pre (it's a stunner) and I will try the power with the Tannoys, but would also like to try a few SS power amps with it including the 909 which I rate very highly.
Hi Paul , may I ask what amps you heard with the agathons ? A friend who lives in Northampton also called Paul , used agathons for many years , I heard them with AN conquest monos and later a pair of Diavolo's each with border patrol psu's , he's since moved up the range , not sure of the name but the next one up anyway , they sounded fabulous with acoustic and classical music .
Hi Paul , may I ask what amps you heard with the agathons ? A friend who lives in Northampton also called Paul , used agathons for many years , I heard them with AN conquest monos and later a pair of Diavolo's each with border patrol psu's , he's since moved up the range , not sure of the name but the next one up anyway , they sounded fabulous with acoustic and classical music .
Hi Chris
mine were the later Agathon Ultimates with twin 12 inch bass drivers around back :stalks: I used a Lumley PP40/ST40 combo to great effect (40 watts push pull 6L6GC valve amp). The next model up is the Eufrodites and mighty fine too although it does occupy a lot of space!
Who is the one talking bollocks about it not being possible for p/p amps to be class A? I have an Art Audio Quintet playing very sweetly in triode mode class A P/P as I type this.
Hi Paul,
That would be Richard Dunn of Nene Valley Audio: a bollocks-talker, par excellence, who's dug himself into a very deep hole - and is still digging! :doh:
The link to my article about the Lockwoods on Musicosis says it all. Again I have read criticism of the Majors based on the fact that their porting was devised, as with all the old Lockwood designs, before the Thiel/Small parameters and without their benefit. Quite right and that's why Lockwoods don't suffer from one note bass the way a lot of modern reflex designs do
I would always stick to my MGs for choice but, the new Majors with the HPDs did sound good
Nice one, mate. Extensive experience of listening to the above allows me to concur with your observations :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-10-2012, 20:33
The link to my article about the Lockwoods on Musicosis says it all. Again I have read criticism of the Majors based on the fact that their porting was devised, as with all the old Lockwood designs, before the Thiel/Small parameters and without their benefit. Quite right and that's why Lockwoods don't suffer from one note bass the way a lot of modern reflex designs do:)
The reason they don't suffer from "one note bass" as you call it is simply down to the very low driver Qts, this lets any power amp including low feedback valve amps control them very easily. The drivers have huge electro magnetic damping & as a result will sound clean.
Thiele/small parameters used in the right way & with drivers of a suitable Qts will also result in clean bass in a reflex enclosure. Just a shame that Dynaudio & many others tend to stuff high Qts drivers in reflex enclosures, for which they were patently not designed :lol:
You may well do a lot of listening, but if you don't understand the technical side of things you'll not see a correlation between driver parameters & bass performance.
Hi Mark,
The reason they don't suffer from "one note bass" as you call it is simply down to the very low driver Qts, this lets any power amp including low feedback valve amps control them very easily. The drivers have huge electro magnetic damping & as a result will sound clean.
Indeed! Any views on the claimed impossibility of push-pull valve amps to be pure Class A? We're looking to educate Mr Dunn, as clearly his technical understanding in this area is lacking :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-10-2012, 20:50
Hi Mark,
Indeed! Any views on the impossibility of push-pull valve amps to be pure Class A? We're looking to educate Mr Dunn, as clearly his technical understanding in this area is lacking :)
Marco.
I saw the locked thread earlier, so obviously I cannot comment :rfl:
But yes, the man is a fool & totally wrong. While any single ended class A amp can be in theory 25% efficient (not allowing for any component losses), a push pull class A amp can in theory be 50% efficient, again not taking into account of component losses.
Where did this guy come from, the Jurassic? :eyebrows: If so I guess he stayed there :D
Fool...
This guy is mean't to be an audio expert :rfl:
Ok, so I know we didn't get along due to differences of opinion on certain aspects of amplifier protection, but this takes the biscuit.
I'm actually wondering if he gained his amplifier knowledge from a book sold by Tandy by a certain chap called (R A?) Penfold :scratch: His stuff is honestly about the same level at the end of the day.
Thank you Anthony, and yes, the chap who rebuilt my (last) valve amp said pretty much exactly the same thing to me a few years back which is what my understanding is based on. The thread has wandered slightly off course (as they do) so in the spirit of getting it back on course............................................ .................................................. ................................................T-minus 4 weeks before the Turnberrys arrive. I'd offer a bakeoff, but the thought of cramming in some lockwood majors and other suitably large Tannoys into my listening room might not be too practical:scratch:
Oooh, nice one, dude. I can sense your excitement! Can I come for a listen when the Turns arrive? If you want, I'll even bring my 'kid-on' Class A P/P valve amp along for a giggle ;)
Marco.
I'm actually wondering if he gained his amplifier knowledge from a book sold by Tandy by a certain chap called (R A?) Penfold :scratch: His stuff is honestly about the same level at the end of the day.
Lol... As an aside, Anthony's got an original GEC technical manual, from the 1950s, which clearly states the position in relation to KT88s, Class A and push-pull valve amplifiers, details of which he's going to post later ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-10-2012, 21:26
Lol... As an aside, Anthony's got an original GEC technical manual, from the 1950s, which clearly states the position in relation to KT88s, Class A and push-pull valve amplifiers, details of which he's going to post later ;)
Marco.
It's the same with solid state, bias to half the quiescent current needed & as one device gradually reduces in current, the opposite device increases.
At some point cutoff will occur, though if the output stage is biased to full class A this will only occur if there is a drop in impedance.
Assuming the output stage is biased high enough, it'll operate in full class A.
Admittedly the sonic signature of push pull & single ended are different, but so is the dissipation :eyebrows:
While a single ended output stage will output mainly even order harmonics (which are musical), a push pull stage will tend to odd order harmonics. Though these aren't so musical, they'll be at a stupidly low level due to it being biased into class A...
Which is what it is all about :D
One big advantage of push pull is if it requires more current for the load it can be supplied, though it'll go into class B. A single ended stage will simply crap out (clip), as it can only supply the current it is set at on whichever side the current source is on.
Its very very simple
Class A: Device conducts for full signal cycle
Class B: Device shut off for some of cycle, but conducts for more or equal to half the cycle
Class C: Device conducts for less than half the cycle.
For push pull, As long as the signal level is such that neither valve goes into shutoff then its class A, once one valve is off then its B. Its possible to bias the valve such that neither valve shuts off with full input signal, Class A. Bias so that both are on for some of the time but as the signal increases one shuts off, then its AB, Bias it so at idle both are shutoff, and they are never on together, but never both off when there is a signal, then its Class B. Bias it so there is a dead zone where both are off its Class C.
(the above is equally true for transistors as valves).
If no grid current flows at any time, its A1, B1, or C1 (the 1 is normally omitted). If grid current flows for some or all the time, its A2, B2 or C2.
Its all In RDH (but if you know what that is, you already know the above).
Thanks, Nick, for the clarification. Hopefully Mr Dunn has learned something now, particularly as he's always respected and considered you as someone who knows what he's talking about, regarding electronics. He's so pig-headed though, that no doubt he'll not accept that he is WRONG - instead he'll continue to claim in vain that everyone else is wrong, bar him! :doh:
The fact is that not one single person, who understands and builds electronics, has come to his defence and sided with his argument, which for me, says it all.....
Quite simply, if he continues spouting his misguided tosh, in reference to Class A valve amps, then he'll only make himself look even more like a fool. There's a time to hold your hands up and admit you've made a mistake and are wrong, whilst you still have some technical credibility left - and for Richard Dunn, that time is now...! ;)
Marco.
Told you.
His latest bollocks:
Well Lurcher knows what he is talking about, which is unusual on that forum, BUT he doesn't mention class AB and that is what these push pull amps are = highly biased class B's = AB. On a test rig perhaps the amps stays biased for most of its gain range, but under load - no way.
The only circuit that stays in class A *ALL THE TIME* is single ended, and then it runs out of steam and clips, these pseudo class A's revert to class B *SO THEY ARE CLASS AB* - FULL STOP!!
Getting a little flustered now, are we? Calm down, dear, and stop shouting!! Shouting doesn't make you any less wrong :D
Care to answer Mr Dunn's comments, Nick, or anyone else who's qualified?
Marco.
Hi Paul,
Just curious, but when you listened to the Turnberry's, you mentioned that you could hear the Tannoy upper-mid honk. Were the speakers toed in facing the listening position, or firing straight down the room?
Very interesting reading regarding amplification with the Tannoys. I'm currently driving mine with a Unison Research Sinfonia, a very nice sounding 30w single-ended pure class a integrated, but can't help thinking that the Turnberry's could do with a bigger kick up the arse!
Well, I have no dog in this fight, but I was just trying to offer some definitions. But it seems to be getting confused about just what is what.
The only circuit that stays in class A *ALL THE TIME* is single ended, and then it runs out of steam and clips, these pseudo class A's revert to class B *SO THEY ARE CLASS AB* - FULL STOP!!
I don't mention AB as it was not needed when describing the classes. Strictly speaking AB is not a class. its just a example of B,
A is always conducting
B is conducting part of the time, but more than half the time
C is less than half the time.
Ignoring shared cathodes components (for a push pull amp) any output stage can be regarded as any class depending on the level of signal its fed.
If you take a SET as a example which is being quoted as the defacto standard of a class A amp, and if the driver stage has the headroom you can drive the output valve into shutoff. Its (in that state) a class B amp, drive it harder still and it will be shutoff more than half the time. Its now a class C amp. All classes with a single output valve. So what type of amplifier is it, A?, B? or C? Well of course its all of them, the only thing that decides is the level of the input signal. The same is true of a push pull amp, but in that case, its possible to select the combined idle point. If the idle current is high, then it will be able to spend a lot of time with both valves conducting, its only in class A, but push it harder one will shutoff as was the case with a SET, then its in B.
You can't just look at a output stage and decide that because it can be driven into B or C, its a B or C amp, it entirely depends on what power is needed from it. The SET will sound horrible in B or C, but thats not the point. Single ended class C driver stages are often used in RF designs with a tuned circuit following to fill in the remainder of the time.
Its entirely possibly to design a output stage such that the driver stage clips before the output stage is driven into B, in that case, that amp can only be A, not AB, not B.
As a final example, I am experimenting (still, been some years now) with a DAC with a transformer coupled push pull output stage, just like a little push pull amp. I can say for certain that its a push pull output stage that will never leave A, because I know for certain what the max signal from the DAC chip will be, so I can choose operating conditions such that it will remain in A. So that simple example disproves "The only circuit that stays in class A *ALL THE TIME* is single ended".
Sorry for the long repeating post, but I nave not said anything that wasn't in the first one, just tried to explain what it means in context,
If I knew the op points for Marco's amp, and the max signal levels he runs it as I could say for certain if its A all the time, or B some of the time. I do know how loud a single 211 (A2) will go through Tannoys, I can well believe that a couple of kt88's will stay in A for most of the time.
Hi Paul,
Just curious, but when you listened to the Turnberry's, you mentioned that you could hear the Tannoy upper-mid honk. Were the speakers toed in facing the listening position, or firing straight down the room?
Very interesting reading regarding amplification with the Tannoys. I'm currently driving mine with a Unison Research Sinfonia, a very nice sounding 30w single-ended pure class a integrated, but can't help thinking that the Turnberry's could do with a bigger kick up the arse!
Hi lewis
I listened to them with an Air Tight EL34 amp (unsure of output but guess at 40 watts?) and were slightly toed in listening about 2m away (near field-ish). Every Tannoy I've heard has benefited from additional power and I intend to use mine with at least a 150w SS power amp bolted onto the valve pre!
Oooh, nice one, dude. I can sense your excitement! Can I come for a listen when the Turns arrive? If you want, I'll even bring my 'kid-on' Class A P/P valve amp along for a giggle ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
they'll need 50 to 100 hours to bed in but after that if you'd like to bring your amp, then you'd be welcome to come and listen. Of course, it's all dependant upon the Harbeths being sold first!
anthonyTD
12-10-2012, 08:58
Its very very simple
Class A: Device conducts for full signal cycle
Class B: Device shut off for some of cycle, but conducts for more or equal to half the cycle
Class C: Device conducts for less than half the cycle.
For push pull, As long as the signal level is such that neither valve goes into shutoff then its class A, once one valve is off then its B. Its possible to bias the valve such that neither valve shuts off with full input signal, Class A. Bias so that both are on for some of the time but as the signal increases one shuts off, then its AB, Bias it so at idle both are shutoff, and they are never on together, but never both off when there is a signal, then its Class B. Bias it so there is a dead zone where both are off its Class C.
(the above is equally true for transistors as valves).
If no grid current flows at any time, its A1, B1, or C1 (the 1 is normally omitted). If grid current flows for some or all the time, its A2, B2 or C2.
Its all In RDH (but if you know what that is, you already know the above).
:)
The ridiculous thing about all this is; the only reason RD is even debating this [and getting his thongs in a knot in the process] is because of his constant obsession with Marco, and nothing to do with me, but because Marco uses equipment that was made by me, i get brought into his silly games time after time, and its starting to wear thin now, Lurcher [among others]have made it quite clear to understand the different classes of bias needed to obtain a certain class of operation, ie; Class A, B, c etc, now RD is going on about class Ab1, what he is describing is an output stage that is mainly biased into class A, but can go outside of the parameters of class A for the remainder of its power cycle, most traditional push-pull amplifiers circuits when biased into class A will go outside of its class A region when pushed to their limits of usable grid signal etc,but how much will depend on a few factors, these include power supply voltage Sag etc.
Marco's amplifier produces its full stated power of 50 watts per Chanel whilst staying in its Class A region.
I really, really hope he gets this now and leaves me out of any further debates or silly games he may have planned for Marco, lets hope.
Anthony,TD...
realysm42
12-10-2012, 09:13
I know I'm walking into a long standing thing here but what's the issue; even if Marco were wrong (and I'm not intimating he is, I don't understand all of the technical stuff but even a fool can tell all the techy people are agreed) why can't the other guy just laugh about it and move on?
I know I'm walking into a long standing thing here but what's the issue; even if Marco were wrong (and I'm not intimating he is, I don't understand all of the technical stuff but even a fool can tell all the techy people are agreed) why can't the other guy just laugh about it and move on?
Perhaps better addressed on the new thread that Marco has posted? This one is confused enough now as is ;)
realysm42
12-10-2012, 09:56
Apologies mate.
The actual thread's provided some intersting reading and I'm interested to hear of your findings.
Jeez - Dunn still hasn't got the grace to admit defeat! :doh:
Here's his latest bull:
From AnthonyTD
"Marco's amplifier produces its full stated power of 50 watts per Chanel whilst staying in its Class A region (my hi-light).
I really, really hope he gets this now and leaves me out of any further debates or silly games he may have planned for Marco, lets hope.
Anthony,TD..."
Now we are getting to the truth of the matter, this is another ploy of the push-pull so called class A amp manufacturers - only claim the spec of the amp to the point that it *should* never come out of class A. Well as he perfectly well knows this depends on load and I could definitely put a load on the amp that would make it revert to class B, and I am sure the way Marco uses his amp to try and impress people by pinning them to the back wall (soft clipping), at that point it has reverted to class B - so ergo it is a class AB amplifier.
Perhaps if I thrashed the amplifier to within an inch of its life all of the time, then what Mr Dunn is saying would be correct. Also, is he talking about an electrical load or a musical load, in reference to his assertion that he could revert my amp to Class B? If it's simply the former, then that has no relevance when someone is listening to music in 'real world' conditions. If it's the latter, then I'd love to be informed of (and hear) the piece of music concerned, as I'd use it as part of my listening test procedures in future!
The fact is, however, even when I play the amp very loudly, when people are round for a sesh (as all of us here do who actually have friends and aren't too old to enjoy loud rock music ;)), the Copper amp is still operating well within its Class A power envelope, as you only need a few watts (and the few watts required for that task are unquestionably, and measurably, in Class A, as has been demonstrated already by Anthony and Nick), when the amp is operating within that zone, to create very loud SPLs (in a controlled and musical way), when using 95db efficient 15" drivers, in huge cabinets, playing music in my relatively small room.
Therefore, given that's case, I'm 100% happy (and as it's my amp being discussed, that's all that matters) that, during 90% of my music listening, which is done at normal levels, the Copper amp is operating well within its Class A power envelope; ergo when used thus, it is a true 50W Class A push-pull valve amplifier.
One further point, regarding this from RD: "Marco's so called class A push pull amp reverts to class B somewhere in its gain range depending on load...."
Possibly, although due to your lack of knowledge of how my amp has been designed (as has been evidenced before with your errors, regarding wiring looms, etc), and valve design topology in general, you can only surmise when, or indeed if that happens, when the amp is being used well within its performance limits, which is 90% of the time (as it doesn’t get thrashed often)!
You haven't measured or even listened to my amp under ANY conditions. Therefore, rather than being factual, your assertions, in that respect, are thus no more than conjecture.
*That* is the crux of the matter in this ridiculous dispute, so Mr Dunn can bleat away to the contrary on his toy forum, making himself in the process look like a dickhead to those with any proper understanding of electronics, and with everyone but him safe in the knowledge that he's been hoisted (rather hilariously) by his own petard! :D
Now, as Anthony and Nick, two highly respected audio engineers, have very eloquently stated the undisputable facts of the matter, I must apologise sincerely to Paul for messing up his thread, and ask that we all (including me), depart from the dispute about Class A and finally get the thread back on topic :cool:
Marco.
anthonyTD
12-10-2012, 10:26
I know I'm walking into a long standing thing here but what's the issue; even if Marco were wrong (and I'm not intimating he is, I don't understand all of the technical stuff but even a fool can tell all the techy people are agreed) why can't the other guy just laugh about it and move on?
Hi Martin,
Unfortunetly Its a long standing obsession RD has with AOS, and Marco in paticular, As this is Paul's thread originaly about his adventure's into Tannoy dual concentrics, i would ask that Marco moves all comments on the subject of RD to the dedicated thread started. :)
A...
If Paul would like that, then I will most certainly oblige. However, it might make the other thread difficult to read in its proper context.
Therefore, I'll leave it up to Paul. If he's fine with leaving the last few posts about Class A 'as is', with the promise that there will be no more 'unwanted interruptions', then that's fine, but if not, the OT stuff will be moved to the other thread.
Paul, just let me know what you're happy with :)
Marco.
Happy top leave the comments as they stand as Marco suggests. Just trying to keep a semblance of the original thread intact ;)
anthonyTD
12-10-2012, 11:27
Happy top leave the comments as they stand as Marco suggests. Just trying to keep a semblance of the original thread intact ;)
:)
Happy top leave the comments as they stand as Marco suggests. Just trying to keep a semblance of the original thread intact ;)
Nice one, mate. The ridiculous dispute is over, as far as I'm concerned, so I'm off to listen to music on my 'kid-on' Class A P/P valve amp, and he (Dunn) can do the same on his Class AB/B/C/CBA/FUK, or whatever his idiocy that day, deems it to be, amp! :lol:
Marco.
Retrieved from earlier:
Hi Marco,
they'll need 50 to 100 hours to bed in but after that if you'd like to bring your amp, then you'd be welcome to come and listen. Of course, it's all dependant upon the Harbeths being sold first!
Top man. I'll defo take you up on that! :cool:
Marco.
The new Tannoy stands should be ready around about the same time but for now am keeping the details under wraps ;)
My guess is that the largest market for those would be the Far East.
:D:D
The new Tannoy stands should be ready around about the same time but for now am keeping the details under wraps ;)
My guess is that the largest market for those would be the Far East.
And one here in the west midlands:)
Here's hoping the price isn't too :eek:
Oh, and don't forget my AOS discount! :D
Prices yet to be determined Lewis...it'll depend on whether we go for the solid American Black Walnut or use a quality walnut veneer, not that the final buyer would be able to tell the difference such is the quality of the work from David who does the joinery for RFC (Cherry also available). I'll be trying a few out before I settle on the one that goes to market. Prices won't be astronomical though. Bear in mind that good timber isn't cheap and really good cabinet makers aren't ten-a-penny! If you're interested, I can give you a few details of what to expect and ballpark pricing in a PM.
Prices yet to be determined Lewis...it'll depend on whether we go for the solid American Black Walnut or use a quality walnut veneer, not that the final buyer would be able to tell the difference such is the quality of the work from David who does the joinery for RFC (Cherry also available). I'll be trying a few out before I settle on the one that goes to market. Prices won't be astronomical though. Bear in mind that good timber isn't cheap and really good cabinet makers aren't ten-a-penny! If you're interested, I can give you a few details of what to expect and ballpark pricing in a PM.
Please. :)
Well, guess what rolled up yesterday?
Clue:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_5821_zpsca9cbd1d.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_5818_zps35e91871.jpg
Do they sound good?
Too early to jump to any firm conclusions as they'll need 50hrs or so running-in, but they're fabulous right out of the box. Far more musically involvng in my room than the Harbeths were, with better imaging and bass. Slight lift in the mids but once the bass driver loosens up and everything settles down, they can only get better. I strongly suspect that this could be my final loudspeaker purchase. Fabulous sounding.
Anyone tried these with AN's Otto SE?
If they sound as good as they look Paul I would be inordinately envious ;)
Enjoy mate!
I see from your pics you have the treble energy setting at +1.5, do you prefer it like that?
realysm42
24-10-2012, 22:22
Fantastic looking bits of kit; I wish some of you guys lived nearer, I've never heard Tannoy gear.
Enjoy mate!
I see from your pics you have the treble energy setting at +1.5, do you prefer it like that?
I had them like that to start with but have now moved them back to the mid setting. I found that Tannoys take a bit of adjusting to because they're not as forward as most modern speakers yet give away nothing in dynamics and transient response. You can be fooled into thinking "where's the detail?" but it's there, it's just that it doesn't shout at you. After an hours playing, I adjusted to their sound and moved the treble energy plug back and it gave a better balance.
These have now got about 8 hours playing on them and they're beginning to open up nicely in the bass which is exceptional in quality and extension. Already have my first few visitors to listen to them! Got a posse coming down en-mass from the Midlands on Saturday for a listen...at this rate I'll have to become a Tannoy dealership!
Fantastic looking bits of kit; I wish some of you guys lived nearer, I've never heard Tannoy gear.
Hi Martin
I travelled close to NW London to audition a pair of these before making my mind up and it was £30 diesel money well spent!
Looking good, Paul. Glad they're hittin' the spot for ya! Pleased too that we have another Tannoyista in the AoS ranks - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Looking good, Paul. Glad they're hittin' the spot for ya! Pleased too that we have another Tannoyista in the AoS ranks - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Yup...sounding good. Having fun with an upgraded OTO SE (Jensen and Black gates everywhere) and 10w of single ended amp has no right to drive these as well as it does! (and very nice too I might add).
I had them like that to start with but have now moved them back to the mid setting. I found that Tannoys take a bit of adjusting to because they're not as forward as most modern speakers yet give away nothing in dynamics and transient response. You can be fooled into thinking "where's the detail?" but it's there, it's just that it doesn't shout at you. After an hours playing, I adjusted to their sound and moved the treble energy plug back and it gave a better balance.
These have now got about 8 hours playing on them and they're beginning to open up nicely in the bass which is exceptional in quality and extension. Already have my first few visitors to listen to them! Got a posse coming down en-mass from the Midlands on Saturday for a listen...at this rate I'll have to become a Tannoy dealership!
After a bit of playing around i also ended up with the mid setting, and find they can be listened to for long periods without fatigue.
Where did the OTO SE come from?
Anyone tried these with AN's Otto SE?
Audio Note and Tannoys are a match made in Heaven ;)
The OTO se is a very nice amp as you have now found out, the newer version has c cores fitted :D
Audio Note and Tannoys are a match made in Heaven ;)
The OTO se is a very nice amp as you have now found out, the newer version has c cores fitted :D
Having now tried them with an OTO SE it's very clear they're not a good match. Great bass performance (astonishing in fact) but too much mid range bloom which exacerbates the slight mid range lift at 1 to 2KHz. Nice treble detail though.
Tried them today with a single ended KT88 amp (running twin KT88's in parallel per channel) and that was much better, but oddly lacked the little 10w OTO's bass response. Lovely mids though.
hifi_dave
27-10-2012, 19:25
They are not particularly easy to drive/control - I wonder what the impedance curve is like ? You need an amp with a bit of grip.
tannoyman
27-10-2012, 19:59
Tannoy Glenair 15" or Tannoy Turnberry SE (Prestige) and why?
Recently heard the DC10a's and a while back had the pleasure of hearing some 15" monitor golds in York cabs.
The DC10a's I wouldn't give tuppence for...absolutely dreadful; the old timers were wonderful in a warm and cuddly fashion. The only one's I haven't heard that I'd like to are the two mentioned above. Opinions?
Hi Paul
I cannot comment on either the Glenair or Turnberry specifically because I have not heard them but intuitively the more refined of the two is likely to be the Turnbury as it is a more sophisticated well-developed design in its 2nd iteration with better binding posts etc. hey are also prettier imho with more attractive design. Your room is also an important consideration. A 15" driver in a modest space is not always a good thing. The Turnbury's are likely to suit the smaller room better. I would try to borrow both and try them in your own room.
As a long time Tannoy user I know that they need very careful matching with cables and other equipment. Horn tweeters badly set up can part the hair at 50 paces and singe your beard if you get too close. I can also say that I have heard the DC10's sounding impressive so it could just be that the set up you heard was not top hole. It is difficult to be conclusive apart from saying you need more information to make up your mind.
I am not sure where you are but if you are in the South, Dave Ruffle at Heatherdale Audio in Worthing is very helpful.
David :)
tannoyman
27-10-2012, 20:07
Last time I got a great big horn, the wife wouldn't speak to me for a day!
I've got Westminster Royals and my wife has excommunicated me!!
David :lol::lol:
Hi Paul
I cannot comment on either the Glenair or Turnberry specifically because I have not heard them but intuitively the more refined of the two is likely to be the Turnbury as it is a more sophisticated well-developed design in its 2nd iteration with better binding posts etc. hey are also prettier imho with more attractive design. Your room is also an important consideration. A 15" driver in a modest space is not always a good thing. The Turnbury's are likely to suit the smaller room better. I would try to borrow both and try them in your own room.
As a long time Tannoy user I know that they need very careful matching with cables and other equipment. Horn tweeters badly set up can part the hair at 50 paces and singe your beard if you get too close. I can also say that I have heard the DC10's sounding impressive so it could just be that the set up you heard was not top hole. It is difficult to be conclusive apart from saying you need more information to make up your mind.
I am not sure where you are but if you are in the South, Dave Ruffle at Heatherdale Audio in Worthing is very helpful.
David :)
Thanks David but already bought Turnberrys and have them in. They're great loudspeakers and suit me down to the ground. Dead easy to drive even with flea powered amps (I've used one) but as HiFiDave points out, they prefer more power and grip. The Croft micro 25/Series 7 is more than enough and produced stupendous bass from them. I don't agree that they are cable fussy at all (cables are what I do) having tried various cables in the upstream chain, and whilst not particularly amp fussy, its the room/speaker relationship IMHO together with personal tastes which dictate the amp.
They do need careful amp matching in order to get them right for your own particular space and music preferences. I had them hooked up to a KT88 SE Mastersound amp (30 watts of pure Class A) and that was wonderfully polished and refined plus reeled in the 1-2KHz lift but it lacked bass depth. By contrast, the Crofts produced an almost obscene amount of (very well) controlled bass totally out of keeping with the cabinet size (and better bass than I've heard from many 15 inch Tannoys), but lacked the Mastersound amps finesse.
It goes to show that these speakers cannot be judged on a single audition on a single amp. you need to experiment with the amp and when you get it right, they reward in spades. I had SHL5's before, and the main difference between the two (besides the much deeper and more powerful bass of the Tannoys) is that were I wanting something to mix music with in the studio, I'd choose the clear sounding flat response that the Harbeths gave. If I want something to engage the emotions and plonk into the living room, it would be the Tannoys every time, so the switch from Harbeths to Tannoys for me at any rate was a big upgrade in that respect. I enjoy what they do well a hell of a lot better than what the Harbeths gave me.
between them a lot going on and I am very familiar with them.
Conclusions:
1. I drove a bloody long way!
2. SHL5s can have an apparent mid forwardness mainly due to indistinct and slightly rolled of bass and to my ears, a poor treble quality by comparison with well sorted older Tannoys, but they are still very good. I'm talking subtleties and not night and day.
3. the newer Tannoy Prestige range is very good, straight out of the box and not as amp/room fussy as older models
4. Newer Prestige Tannoys do have an upper mid "honk" which adds distortion to some vocals but it is liveable with IMHO and their overall balance is still very much high quality Tannoy sound.
5. SHL5s major in clear midrange but lose out IMHO in other areas compared to the Prestige range and older Tannoys, particularly bass and scale. However the mid range is what many like, so for broadcast work, quiet home listening, jazz and vocals, the SHL5s are near on perfect and for most would count as their last loudspeaker.
Now out for a well earned pint.:cool:
.
The SHL5's in hifi dave's room actually have very deep bass with notes you can feel, not the mid bass "thump" exhibited by many other speakers including my BC2's and LS5/9's, the latter rolling gently away but still with output of lower bass notes, albeit at much reduced level. The treble "quality" of SHL5's is also system dependant, being sweet with some material and not with others. The thing is, all of the better "BBC influenced" speakers do really well on voice and acoustic instruments and the latest Harbeths "do" bass properly as well, with none of the cabinet "breathing" my Spendors exhibit.
I just feel I need to give an alternative view. I like the Turnberry SE very much in direct comparison with the SHL5 and also some Zu Druids I heard at the same time - wonderful with the wick up but shrinking alarmingly with volume reduced (EAR 599 and LFD amplification I remember), but still regard them as a backward step. The listening room is the final arbiter, and listening to several different speakers in different venues in a day? is a total waste of time, since one's ears take a couple of hours to settle each time after a spell on public transport or haring around in a car from one venue to another. BIG Tannoys are a different matter though, but had I the money and space to place them, I think I'd rather have some M40.1's instead and put up with the compromises involved in a three way speaker :)
montesquieu
29-10-2012, 01:48
I just feel I need to give an alternative view. I like the Turnberry SE very much in direct comparison with the SHL5 and also some Zu Druids I heard at the same time - wonderful with the wick up but shrinking alarmingly with volume reduced (EAR 599 and LFD amplification I remember), but still regard them as a backward step. The listening room is the final arbiter, and listening to several different speakers in different venues in a day? is a total waste of time, since one's ears take a couple of hours to settle each time after a spell on public transport or haring around in a car from one venue to another. BIG Tannoys are a different matter though, but had I the money and space to place them, I think I'd rather have some M40.1's instead and put up with the compromises involved in a three way speaker :)
Not sure I agree, Dave. Harbeth SHL5's are perfectly fine (as are AN-E's) but give my 15in MG's any day. In my experience, Tannoys in general (including the smaller Turnberrys which I heard at Paul's today) couple to the room better and are more musical, Harbeths may measure better in some rooms, but I don't think in general they do music the way Tannoys do. I certainly don't recognise this shrinking phenomenon you mention. Backward step? Only if you are a Harbeth diehard.
Anyway Harbeths in my view are fine for your mixing studio, but give me Tannoys any day for a night (or indeed, a morning or an afternoon) of enjoying tunes. Especially with a good valve amp. (Interestingly enough though I haven't tried the EAR599 with my MGs I did try the EAR509 monoblocks and found them musically wanting by comparison to my Tube Distictions KT88 PP, so might have been the amp that was the issue - getting just the right amp for mine proved a bit of a mission, it wasn't about watts either, plenty supposedly more powerful amps proved to be a disappointment).
In a more suitable room, SHL5's "do" music better than almost anything out there. 10" Turnberry's just don't go lower - they can't with that claimed sensitivity - it's physics guys, not opinion. The Harbs can sound incredibly musical, and I've heard them with a good few amps now in recent years, as well as several different pairs to gain a degree of sample consistency. You want lush? Partner them with a £1K Icon Audio amp. You want musicality and clearer, then look at EAR, or Croft, or the £2K Icon amps. You want iron grip? Then look at Albarry or LFD (yes I know hifi dave has all of these for sale, but I'm limited here, despite all the fine tuning these different amps produce...). You want them to ROCK? Then I know a good working vintage Crown DC300A sounds incredible with them and with musicality and grip too, 10% resistors and forty year age included :lol:
Anyway, "we've" moved on now. Enjoy the journey. Maybe turning up the tweeter level by a notch as I believe Steve Toy has done with his may offer a slightly different perspective.
In a more suitable room, SHL5's "do" music better than almost anything out there. 10" Turnberry's just don't go lower - they can't with that claimed sensitivity - it's physics guys, not opinion. The Harbs can sound incredibly musical, and I've heard them with a good few amps now in recent years, as well as several different pairs to gain a degree of sample consistency. You want lush? Partner them with a £1K Icon Audio amp. You want musicality and clearer, then look at EAR, or Croft, or the £2K Icon amps. You want iron grip? Then look at Albarry or LFD (yes I know hifi dave has all of these for sale, but I'm limited here, despite all the fine tuning these different amps produce...). You want them to ROCK? Then I know a good working vintage Crown DC300A sounds incredible with them and with musicality and grip too, 10% resistors and forty year age included :lol:
Anyway, "we've" moved on now. Enjoy the journey. Maybe turning up the tweeter level by a notch as I believe Steve Toy has done with his may offer a slightly different perspective.
Yes, they do. Don't know why you seem to have a bee in your bnnet about this as its what I like that informs my choices, not what I'm told I should like.
I've had both. In a nutshell, the Harbs were nice and clean, compromised in the quality of the bass and the extension. they'd make a great monitoring loudspeaker (no surprises there). For emotional involvement and scale, the Turnberrys win hands down IMHO and IME.
No amount of "Telling" me that the Turnberrys aren't up to scratch makes it true. Its your opinion and one I don't happen to share. Each to their own, but the Tannoys do it for me.
Yeah, I suppose I do have a bee in my bonnet when people do such strange things. Still, we all feel music differently and have different vibes about the gear we use to play it on and it's your hard earned money you're spending. I'll shut up now (:clap:) and let you get on with it!
Yeah, I suppose I do have a bee in my bonnet when people do such strange things. Still, we all feel music differently and have different vibes about the gear we use to play it on and it's your hard earned money you're spending. I'll shut up now (:clap:) and let you get on with it!
Thing is no two people (even when they are well up on these things) ever have exactly the same tastes or opinions. What I prefer isn't for reasons (particularly) of perfection or accuracy, its far more subjective. I've said over and over that the Harbs are great speakers but they do have their limitations, and the Tannoys simply don't have the same limitations. As for bass, well, the Tannoys use a larger driver in a 100 litre (3.5 Cubic foot) vented enclosure, compared with the Harbeths 8 inch woofer in a 2 cubic foot enclosure. The true sensitivity of the harbs is much higher IMHO than claimed, so its no surprise the Tannoys move more air and drop lower. What I was amazed at was just how low they go. I have several recordings here where the Harbeths simply rolled off, but the Tannoys don't.
Yes, the Tannoys are slightly coloured in the mids where the harbs aren't but I prefer the Tannoys treble and their bass and scale, plus they are more revealing of amplifier changes where I'd argue that Harbeths have their own character that mask amp traits, hence they're said not to be amp fussy and that was certainly what I found when using them.
Does all that make the Tannoys a downgrade? No, of course it doesn't because that's simply not true and in listening, is simply not the case...at all. Harbeths no-matter what their following, are not the be all and end all of loudspeaker design. They're very good indeed and the finish is exceptional. I have a great deal of time for Harbeth as a company and Alan Shaw deserves a great deal of credit for what he's achieved. I happen to prefer the looks and performance of the Tannoys as do many other former Harbeth owners.
Yeah, I suppose I do have a bee in my bonnet when people do such strange things.
"Strange"? Such as what?? :scratch:
Marco.
Audioman
29-10-2012, 19:14
Nobody has mentioned that the Tannoy Turnburry eliminate one major variable - stands. I must admit on a couple short hearings of Harbeth HL5 they struck me as a little clinical and lacking weight. Anyway in my opinion a great floorstander is always going to outperform a great stand mount. The Tannoys have larger cabinets and bigger drive units which generaly equates to a bigger deeper more musicaly convincing sound.
I happen to prefer the looks and performance of the Tannoys as do many other former Harbeth owners.
I wonder why these former owners never seem to sell them on on regularly searched selling-sites, unless they bought them for fashion (they do get more mentions these days) or tried to use them in an inappropriate room with odd amps with suspect characteristics in the bass (he knows who he is and I ain't telling :)).. You see, I have NEVER accused them of over-projecting the mids, in fact the bass is so powerful I don't think I could use them in my room, nor the current C7's. My choice, which I reckon you'd dislike for the very reasons I love them, would be the 30.1's, which take over from my increasingly much loved LS5/9's, which seem rather more temperature sensitive than their spiritual replacements..
100L boxes eh? Maybe it's because they sit on the floor that I didn't clock this - apologies. I'm not likely to re-visit the Turnberry's sadly, as they're a commercial disaster for very small UK dealers to take on, the retail price charged over here, unless they sell them close to trade as "ex-dem." Glad you like them so much (I did too in fairness) and look forward to reading your adventures with them - seriously :)
Note to self - to not interfere in other's decisions, especially when there's a contradiction. Must be the ex-dealer coming out in me :punch:
montesquieu
29-10-2012, 20:14
Nobody has mentioned that the Tannoy Turnburry eliminate one major variable - stands. I must admit on a couple short hearings of Harbeth HL5 they struck me as a little clinical and lacking weight. Anyway in my opinion a great floorstander is always going to outperform a great stand mount. The Tannoys have larger cabinets and bigger drive units which generaly equates to a bigger deeper more musicaly convincing sound.
Got it in one I think!
I wonder why these former owners never seem to sell them on on regularly searched selling-sites, unless they bought them for fashion (they do get more mentions these days) or tried to use them in an inappropriate room with odd amps with suspect characteristics in the bass (he knows who he is and I ain't telling :)).. You see, I have NEVER accused them of over-projecting the mids, in fact the bass is so powerful I don't think I could use them in my room, nor the current C7's. My choice, which I reckon you'd dislike for the very reasons I love them, would be the 30.1's, which take over from my increasingly much loved LS5/9's, which seem rather more temperature sensitive than their spiritual replacements..
100L boxes eh? Maybe it's because they sit on the floor that I didn't clock this - apologies. I'm not likely to re-visit the Turnberry's sadly, as they're a commercial disaster for very small UK dealers to take on, the retail price charged over here, unless they sell them close to trade as "ex-dem." Glad you like them so much (I did too in fairness) and look forward to reading your adventures with them - seriously :)
Note to self - to not interfere in other's decisions, especially when there's a contradiction. Must be the ex-dealer coming out in me :punch:
Turnberrys are not that often seen in the classifieds IME and as for commercial disaster? Dealers may not get the profits they're used to making on them in the UK, but Tannoy manage to sell them by the bucket load to the Far East. They have no shortage of sales for them and the UK is not the primary market. IMHO there are far worse speakers being sold at three times the price.
The 5's weren't in "the wrong room" nor driven by "odd amps" (what and "odd" thing to say about the amps :scratch: not to mention presumptuous regarding the room since you have never visited my room nor know anything about it). I just didn't like having them so far out into the room to sound right when it was a room for living in, not a dedicated listening room (a point you seem to have overlooked). Yes, it was a consideration that I should have made beforehand but I was hoping that they wouldn't have been so placement fussy. They simply do not have the astounding bass that you seem to attribute to them, and I don't know where you get that from...are you confusing them with something else? Bass is tuneful and reasonably deep for the enclosure size but no more than that. To claim otherwise is very misleading (do you have shares in Harbeth by any chance?). The Tannoys on the other hand do produce genuine deep and well extended bass. Anyhow, you seem to have made your mind up differently so lets agree to disagree :cool:
There was a pair of SHL5's being driven by an imported transformer coupled valve amp with little to no bass damping and used in a room far too boomy for them - not yours.
With deepest respect and totally academic now, I worry a bit when I read that the SHL5 has a forward midrange! This always rings alarm bells that something further upstream, or the room, isn't right somehow (I'm pragmatic and work from decades of setup/installation exeriences here). If anything, the balance of this range of speakers, certainly the domestic models, is designed to be slightly on the warm side to encourage and support low level listening which is part of the wonderful vibe I have for them, since having to turn the volume up to get the detail is always indicative of a mismatch or problem somewhere. Seriously Paul, if you found the SHL5 mid-forward, then you really wouldn't like any of the smaller pro-active models out there, since many still seem to exhibit the inverted "V" response to magnify the glare frequencies and allow use on desktops.
I'm doing it again, sorry! I know Alan personally, am still in touch with him from time to time, and sold these speakers' ancestors from the very start in 1977 as well as having regular exposure to the current ones. I suppose I'm as totally commited, positive and fond of the range as Marco is of his Tannoys and I get too involved if there's an issue :)
If you haven't got this already, please try to get the ep "Mindworks" by Sam Brown. The Turnberry's won't have an issue with this disc at all methinks, but if there's any midband or crossover problem with the speakers or system, you'll hear it in seconds (ask hifi dave or Alex_UK, I've tortured them with these tracks on AVI speakers a couple of times...) since Sam's voice will make you wince if there's an issue, but not if the speakers are properly balanced and their interface with the room interface is a good one.
montesquieu
30-10-2012, 10:20
With deepest respect and totally academic now, I worry a bit when I read that the SHL5 has a forward midrange!
Dave you seem to be taking the fact that Turnberrys do some things better than the SLH5, and that consequently Paul sold the SHL5s to buy Turnberrys, rather personally.
In fact you are coming across like you can't let go of the fact you lost the argument, and are over-compensating by talking down like you think your are on Mount Olympus or something dispensing godly wisdom to mere mortals.
No-one is affronting your manhood here, they just prefer a different speaker. The 'reason' doesn't need to be because they are deaf or because the amps are wrong. Your preference is your preference, there are no absolutes here.
I can appreciate the nice stuff Harbeths do as much as the next man, but they don't light my fire emotionally either, give me a Tannoy any day.
I've also compared the two together, side by side not days apart and stand by my opinion, which is totally irrelevant now in any case. Time will tell. Lost the argument? Well, I thought it was a robust discussion of two speakers costing well over two grand the pair (the Tannoys now retail at £3500) and in the same way the OP is now changing amps at a rate of knots to get the speakers to perform the way he wants, the SHL5's were used with an amp that I think was the wrong way round (should have been an R preamp with standard 7 power for example, since the R version of the pre brings subtlety and finesse that is diluted in the otherwise excellent stock model).
Yep, I know shouldn't give a toss what other people do and, as Jerry will confirm, I have difficulty with serial box-shifters too :lol: Each to their own and I'm trying to understand it. I've just had too many experiences with myself in the past, blaming what turns out to be the least problematic part of a hifi and changing it, causing ever more problens subsequently. It's a bit like a reformed smoker evangelising about not smoking, if you see what I mean.
All this is after the event. The OP has made his choice and must live with the consequences. No doubt the source, cable and amp journey now embarked on will prove great fun, if costly :)
That's it. I'm done.
montesquieu
30-10-2012, 14:38
That's it. I'm done.
Didn't you say that before? :lol:
That's it. I'm done.
I suspect merely 'medium rare', rather than all-out crispy! :D
Marco.
I've also compared the two together, side by side not days apart and stand by my opinion, which is totally irrelevant now in any case. Time will tell. Lost the argument? Well, I thought it was a robust discussion of two speakers costing well over two grand the pair (the Tannoys now retail at £3500) and in the same way the OP is now changing amps at a rate of knots to get the speakers to perform the way he wants, the SHL5's were used with an amp that I think was the wrong way round (should have been an R preamp with standard 7 power for example, since the R version of the pre brings subtlety and finesse that is diluted in the otherwise excellent stock model).
Yep, I know shouldn't give a toss what other people do and, as Jerry will confirm, I have difficulty with serial box-shifters too :lol: Each to their own and I'm trying to understand it. I've just had too many experiences with myself in the past, blaming what turns out to be the least problematic part of a hifi and changing it, causing ever more problens subsequently. It's a bit like a reformed smoker evangelising about not smoking, if you see what I mean.
All this is after the event. The OP has made his choice and must live with the consequences. No doubt the source, cable and amp journey now embarked on will prove great fun, if costly :)
That's it. I'm done.
With the greatest of respect Dave, cobblers ;)
There will be no change of cables, sources, fuses, or other hifi related regalia.
Just because you don't agree with what others have found regarding Tannoys doesn't make you right, no-matter how firm your opinion is. What's more, you really have no idea of what I paid for them (another preconception of what might or might not have transpired financially speaking).
The Croft standard preamp is a gem, and whilst the micro25R is even better, to suggest that the micro25/7R pairing was "odd" or even "wrong" for the Harbeths or the Tannoy is no more than your opinion since just as many folk recognise just how good the standard Croft preamp is and have exactly the pairing I have.
Yes, this is the 2nd speaker change this year but so what? I can afford to do this, I love my music and having heard the Tannoys, they floated my boat far more than the Harbeths did. I am more than happy that there will be no more loudspeaker changes since I now have something that works for me. I am not a serial box swapper by any stretch of the imagination although I have swapped a few components out this year, but even if I were, it's part of a hobby and so what if some folk just like listening to as much kit as they can as part of their hobby? That's not a description of me as I do not fall into that camp. I have secured what I believe will be the last loudspeaker change I will make, it is a "destination" loudspeaker for me and of that I have little doubt.
This is a nonsense debate since it factors around your affirmation that from on-high you are being fairly disingenuous not just towards a pair of excellent loudspeakers but also towards the owner of those and the conclusions you jump to are without any basis except your own prejudices and opinion.
Tom has repeated more or less what I've already said, so I'm not alone in saying this again:
Harbeths are great, Tannoys are great, but they are very different and I personally prefer Tannoys for listening pleasure, end of. I am really not interested in anyone else's opinion of them. You should also know better having been in the trade, that knowing Tannoys as you should, that they are more amplifier fussy than Harbeths, and searching for the right amp pairing is essential to get the best from them. Tom I know has had the same journey and can equate with this.
I appreciate that some of your opinion or confusion is perhaps charitable by nature since you don't obviously want to see someone going down an endless path without a destination in sight. That is, however, not the case. There is one final tweak to make and I'll have everything as I want it, end of journey as far as I am concerned.
Not cobblers at all sir! Am I not allowed an opinion either?
We'd better agree to strongly disagree 'cos this will get us nowhere. I'm not going to back down from my assertion that the SHL5's are in fact the better product (and a grand cheaper too if bought new), but it's not my money or taste we're talking about.
I DO know the current Croft stuff rather well, but couldn't understand why you went for the "inferior" preamp but went with the more expensive (and un-necessary with SHL5's) power amp instead. Surely an "odd" choice from my point of view. I mean, a Series 7 standard model easily reproduces the differences in subtlety of all the preamps, from basic to RS - and this with humble sources as well, the better preamps bringing more "expression," "passion" and "feeling" into a suitable recording.
Marco, I'm not so much "done" as burned to a crisp on this, but I'm not changing my mind. Mind you, all this waffle will enable the Turnberry's currently on fleabay to sell more quickly :) and that's not a bad thing.
Enjoy your Turnberry's and hope you find an amp that does the business for you. The EAR899 was rather nice with them I recall...
One other thing that needs clarification David.
You said:
"Anyway, "we've" moved on now. Enjoy the journey. Maybe turning up the tweeter level by a notch as I believe Steve Toy has done with his may offer a slightly different perspective."
Steve hasn't actually touched the tweeter level since having his speakers :lol:. It remains in the centre position. His view is that if you have to fiddle about with the "treble energy" control there is a problem elsewhere in your system. I tend to agree having left mine in the centre position.
You're probably right though David about the EAR. The 899 is a very fine amplifier. They don't come up that often though and when they do, they're far from cheap.
I don't think language like "strongly disagree" makes any difference since you either agree or disagree, and in this case you disagree. I have no problems with that as it's your opinion, and despite the debate, I do respect your opinion as what you genuinely believe. What I do have a problem with though is your assertion of your opinion as "fact" when its nothing of the sort. You are right though, there has been an awful lot of waffle :lol:
You don't like Tannoys..fair enough. You don't rate Turnberrys...fair enough. You prefer SHL5's...fair enough. That's your choice. Having owned both, I have exactly the opposite opinion to you. I have no idea why you think that this thread will help sell some speakers on Ebay as that has nothing to do with anything (what an odd thing to say). This was started initially as an enquiry for those with experience of Tannoys, including Marco and others, to give me their opinions on which might suit my preferences and some good advice was offered.
I listened to various set ups and compared them against the Harbeths following which I could have kept the SHL5's. I chose to buy Turnberrys as I preferred them and by some margin. All you've done ever since that has happened is chipped in to tell me (and others) how "inferior" they are, plus questioned my choice of amplifiers, my motivation and made some personal remarks and observations which are, quite frankly, none of your business. I do not have to justify to your good self why choices were made. This was meant to be a friendly and informative thread about Tannoy loudspeakers,but instead has been hijacked because of your personal dislikes and I have to say, it has soured what was otherwise panning out to be quite an enjoyable thread with some great contributions from others.
You do have a bee in your bonnet, please let it out. Its only hifi and not worth raising your blood pressure over ;) We've already agreed to disagree :cool:
The Black Adder
30-10-2012, 22:55
My old SHL5's didn't sound very good on one type of valve amplifier (P.L Prologue 2 I think) but on the end of a Radford it was a different kettle of Carp. I still like the sound of the SHL5's but my speakers are now 3x the size of them so differences would be quite obvious. Then again SHL5's and Tannoy DC's are like chalk and cheese in just about every way so I couldn't compare them equally.
montesquieu
30-10-2012, 23:01
My old SHL5's didn't sound very good on one type of valve amplifier (P.L Prologue 2 I think) but on the end of a Radford it was a different kettle of Carp. I still like the sound of the SHL5's but my speakers are now 3x the size of them so differences would be quite obvious. Then again SHL5's and Tannoy DC's are like chalk and cheese in just about every way so I couldn't compare them equally.
Hmmm 3-1 for Tannoy vs Harbeth here and I can think of two more at least from other forums, flogging off Harbs in favour of DCs seems to be a bit of a trend ...
The Black Adder
30-10-2012, 23:08
Hmmm 3-1 for Tannoy vs Harbeth here and I can think of two more at least from other forums, flogging off Harbs in favour of DCs seems to be a bit of a trend ...
lol.. in my experience Tannoys do something other speakers can't. Maybe it's the driver being so central that everything sounds so clear and natural?.. I dunno... Pixie dust?
When I heard Tannoy's I just had to have em.
walpurgis
30-10-2012, 23:16
Interesting debate.
I've used many makes of speakers, but I've tended to go back to Tannoy dual concentrics over and over again. They have characteristics (faults?) that some don't like, but I'm now on my sixteenth pair (I currently have three pairs) and other types of speakers just don't really work for me. I'm not saying Tannoys sound 'right' as such, but I just seem to give a mental sigh of relief when I'm listening to them instead of something else.
Indeed. You either 'get' the Tannoy thing with music or you don't. If you do (properly) then, quite simply, nothing else will do... ;)
Marco.
PaulStewart
31-10-2012, 00:06
Anyway Harbeths in my view are fine for your mixing studio.
Err sorry but if you are recording and mixing very simple acoustic music then in my opinion, Harbeths are just about OK, but there is a very good reason why Tannoys were the speaker of choice of record producers for many years..... They are simply the best monitors going. I record using a mix of monitors, from and old pair of Minimus 7s active Tascams and of course my Little Reds, If I go to other peoples studios, if they have no Tannoys I take my own. Every mix or soundtrack I do in my own place, gets a final check on my Tannoy/Lockwood Academys before I output it as well:):):)
jandl100
31-10-2012, 07:47
Tee hee - an interestingly lively thread :eyebrows:
As my name has been taken in vain several times here, I may as well put in my 2p ----
Hmmm 3-1 for Tannoy vs Harbeth here and I can think of two more at least from other forums, flogging off Harbs in favour of DCs seems to be a bit of a trend ...
Tannoy? -- Harbeth? :scratch:
I wouldn't have either of 'em! :nono: :lol:
But I am pleased that Paul -- and Tom and Marco and .... --like their Tannoys. :)
Lol - wot are you loike! Anyway, I'm surprised you don't like Harbs, as you liked the Spends that you once had, which have a similar sonic presentation :)
Which Harbs have you heard, daftee, and what was it that you didn't like about them?
Marco.
jandl100
31-10-2012, 09:03
Lol - wot are you loike! Anyway, I'm surprised you don't like Harbs, as you liked the Spends that you once had, which have a similar sonic presentation :)
Ah, my old SP1/2 -- Errr -- I didn't like them, actually! :nono: :lol:
Fantastic tonal neutrality that had me enthralled for a couple of days - then I realised I was missing all but the opening 5 minutes of a disc as I was dozing off :zzz: :D
God, but they were boring. Lacking the dynamic inflexion that makes music come alive for me. The Harbs I have heard are a bit like that to my ears, as well, although not as deeply snoozeworthy. Paul's 5's, AlanB's smaller model, big Monitor 30 at a Show, others I have heard over the years. They're all the same to my 'umble lug'oles.
There seems to be a price in dynamic subtlety to be paid for squeezing the last few ounces of tonal neutrality. Or maybe it's the flexi-wall approach to cabinets, maybe they tend to soak up some of the low level dynamic changes?
Anyhoo - I think I should leave the technobabble second-guessing to others! :)
l am going to come on this thread a bit left field, l just brought a pair of Tannoy Mercury M20, for a decent price- always loved the look of them when starting out in this business, years ago, anyway cleaned them down, drivers and cabinets, tightened all the driver screws, warmed them up(they were freezing cold) had a listen.. mmm not bad not bad at all, open,airy,dynamic and very dynamic, with a thick bass bump, so left playing whilst doing other stuff, came back for a listen, each time doing so, sound getting a little better
Well this morning listening to them:stalks:, they sound bloody amazing, even more open, so, so musical, dynamic, the bass thump has gone, replaced by, kick drum that hits you in the chest, and they are so sweet, smooth, with the imaging very excplicit, crickey these are good:):cool:
jandl100
31-10-2012, 09:40
Ah well - M20 - a very different kettle of wet, scaley things. More of a 'conventional' speaker.
The dual concentric Tannoys have a flavour all their own, it's not surprising really that they gather their clans of lovers and haters!
walpurgis
31-10-2012, 09:49
Ah well - M20 - a very different kettle of wet, scaley things. More of a 'conventional' speaker.
The dual concentric Tannoys have a flavour all their own, it's not surprising really that they gather their clans of lovers and haters!
Quite so. Nothing else sounds like a proper Tannoy dual concentric!
The Black Adder
31-10-2012, 10:55
l am going to come on this thread a bit left field, l just brought a pair of Tannoy Mercury M20, for a decent price- always loved the look of them when starting out in this business, years ago, anyway cleaned them down, drivers and cabinets, tightened all the driver screws, warmed them up(they were freezing cold) had a listen.. mmm not bad not bad at all, open,airy,dynamic and very dynamic, with a thick bass bump, so left playing whilst doing other stuff, came back for a listen, each time doing so, sound getting a little better
Well this morning listening to them:stalks:, they sound bloody amazing, even more open, so, so musical, dynamic, the bass thump has gone, replaced by, kick drum that hits you in the chest, and they are so sweet, smooth, with the imaging very excplicit, crickey these are good:):cool:
COME WITH US AND LEAVE YOUR WORLD BEHIND... :eyebrows:
The Black Adder
31-10-2012, 10:58
Quite so. Nothing else sounds like a proper Tannoy dual concentric!
And blokes with beards, smoking pipes and brown over coats made em...
walpurgis
31-10-2012, 11:51
And blokes with beards, smoking pipes and brown over coats made em...
Wrong, they actually originate from the mountain grottos of the Gnomes and sound the way they do because the quality control Gnome sprinkles a bit of Pixie dust on each drive unit!
I was really dissapointed by the Turnberrys at Scalford as they are one of the few speakers in the Prestige range that I could afford. The room was very small though which probably didn't help. Also heard some Harbeths and was massively underwhelmed, especially at the price.
COME WITH US AND LEAVE YOUR WORLD BEHIND... :eyebrows:
It has opened my eyes somewhat l have to say.........................
walpurgis
31-10-2012, 20:03
I was really dissapointed by the Turnberrys at Scalford as they are one of the few speakers in the Prestige range that I could afford. The room was very small though which probably didn't help. Also heard some Harbeths and was massively underwhelmed, especially at the price.
Why buy new, when the older models are so good. Even now at their madly inflated and rising prices they offer amazing sound quality. A pair of 15" Lancasters or Berkleys may be getting dear these days, but they are easily refurbished if need be and will, in their own Tannoy way vastly outperform anything new you could buy at the price.
The Berkley is not as popular as the Lancaster because it does not have the classic Tannoy look and has the Girdacoustic cone, which is frowned upon in some quarters. In actual fact the magnet on the 15" driver is so hugely powerful, it easily copes with the slight extra Girdacoustic cone mass and the sound of both drivers is virtually identical.
I was really dissapointed by the Turnberrys at Scalford as they are one of the few speakers in the Prestige range that I could afford. The room was very small though which probably didn't help.
Interesting... I thought differently. Did you listen when Steve's Copper amp (same, although slightly different to mine) went in, instead of Andrew's DIY valve amp? :)
That made a huge difference!
Marco.
Interesting... I thought differently. Did you listen when Steve's Copper amp (same, although slightly different to mine) went in, instead of Andrew's DIY valve amp? :)
That made a huge difference!
Marco.
I don't know what the amplification was for sure but think it was the copper valve amp. It was all a bit small scale and near field, which is not for me. It didn't make up for it by being really open sounding either. I was surprised, but I wouldn't pass judgement on the speakers or the system for that matter on the basis of one short listen in a tiny room that would be a bathroom or a closet in some hotels overseas. ;)
Indeed. I know what you mean about the near-field 'small scale' effect. That would've most certainly been down to the tiny hotel bedroom.
However, there's also a limit to what 10" drivers can do in what are relatively small cabinets (by Tannoy standards). If you want palpable scale from Tannoy DCs, then you need 15" drivers in nice 'big-boy' cabs :)
Marco.
Sweepstake now on the replacement amp for the Turnberrys. Guesses anyone? It lands in 3 to 4 weeks.
Sweepstake now on the replacement amp for the Turnberrys. Guesses anyone? It lands in 3 to 4 weeks.
Mmmmmmm EAR?
:)
It's not a Pimped A30, or a Copper Amp (as fabulous as it would be to have one of those) nor indeed an EAR :eyebrows:
walpurgis
01-11-2012, 18:53
A friend of mine uses an EAR 834L and 861 combo to drive his Tannoy DMT10 speakers and it works beautifully. The driver in the DMT10 is a close relative of the Turnbury unit so I would be inclined to expect the Turnbury would be well suited to EAR amplification.
A friend of mine uses an EAR 834L and 861 combo to drive his Tannoy DMT10 speakers and it works beautifully. The driver in the DMT10 is a close relative of the Turnbury unit so I would be inclined to expect the Turnbury would be well suited to EAR amplification.
I've run my own 834P siggy as a preamp through the power amp and it worked well but my experience of other EAR amps within budget, such as the 834 integrated, don't appeal as much. I've not found the EAR amps at this end of their range that enthralling a listen TBH.
What I've chosen I would like to think betters the 834 by quite a margin.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/845.jpg
:cool:
realysm42
01-11-2012, 20:12
Help a valve newb, what is it?
Looks good...
Help a valve newb, what is it?
Looks good...
Its a Mastersound 845 Compact.
30 watts of Class A Single Ended triode, zero negative feedback amplification. Lots of current to grip and control the speakers. 75lbs deadweight to hoist onto the cabinet (gulp).
realysm42
01-11-2012, 20:26
Lol, compact at 35kg.
Got a lot of good reviews; when's it arriving?
Lol, compact at 35kg.
Got a lot of good reviews; when's it arriving?
yes, it's hernia inducing "compact" :lol:
Sods law. It's arriving just about the same time as I'll be recovering from major surgery in around 3 weeks time so when it arrives, I won't be able to lift it onto the cabinet (in fact I won't be walking for a little while) let alone get it into the house. Hoping one of our friendly neighbours will take pity and help my wife carry it into the house at least!
realysm42
01-11-2012, 20:58
Major surgery? Hope all goes well man.
I've never experienced agony like having to wait for bits and pieces to be delivered :(
You not interested in the SS route then? I've never heard a valve amp in action; one day I'll get round to it, I'm intruiged seeing as so many people love them on here!
julesd68
01-11-2012, 21:19
Hi Paul, that Mastersound looks sweet as a frickin' nut!
I imagine it will send you into delirium paired with the Tannoys.
Should also hasten your recovery if your mrs can get it wired up for you!
Got any decent interconnects? Only kidding :lol:
All the very best to you.
Major surgery? Hope all goes well man.
I've never experienced agony like having to wait for bits and pieces to be delivered :(
You not interested in the SS route then? I've never heard a valve amp in action; one day I'll get round to it, I'm intruiged seeing as so many people love them on here!
I had thought about a Sugden A21se which would have done the job well, and did hear a nice mk2 Quad 405 (fettled) on the end of the croft pre that was very nice. I can't put my finger on it and spec sheets are pretty meaningless to me when it comes to the acid test of listening, but a really good SET amp has always managed to strike the emotional chords and recreate music with startling realism, despite what the specs say, better than anything else for my tastes. That and the fact that Mastersound amps are so beautifully made made it a no brainer for me.
The surgery is particularly nasty and involves removal of a fair amount of bone from a hip joint (long story) along with some damaged cartilage, so I'm under no illusions about how painful it is going to be...
jandl100
02-11-2012, 07:13
Hi Paul - I'll be happy to pop round and set the system up when the 'compact' beastie arrives, if you like. :)
Hi Paul - I'll be happy to pop round and set the system up when the 'compact' beastie arrives, if you like. :)
Thanks Jerry
very kind!
Hi Paul, that Mastersound looks sweet as a frickin' nut!
I imagine it will send you into delirium paired with the Tannoys.
Should also hasten your recovery if your mrs can get it wired up for you!
Got any decent interconnects? Only kidding :lol:
All the very best to you.
Thanks Jules! I'd usually have reservations about using SE amps after previous experience and the output impedance issues but this one has a fair amount of grunt and the Turnberrys are a very easy load.
Audioman
02-11-2012, 11:26
Why buy new, when the older models are so good. Even now at their madly inflated and rising prices they offer amazing sound quality. A pair of 15" Lancasters or Berkleys may be getting dear these days, but they are easily refurbished if need be and will, in their own Tannoy way vastly outperform anything new you could buy at the price.
If you look at the prices of tat old Tannoys and not the most sort after on Ebay I would go with a new pair any time or those 'new' Lockwood models! You are looking c£3K plus considerable refurb costs. Not cheap even if have knowledge to do it yourself. Ironicaly I have seen near new Turnberrys for less than the looks like it needs a rebuild 'classic' stuff.
Paul
walpurgis
02-11-2012, 11:53
If you look at the prices of tat old Tannoys and not the most sort after on Ebay I would go with a new pair any time or those 'new' Lockwood models! You are looking c£3K plus considerable refurb costs. Not cheap even if have knowledge to do it yourself. Ironicaly I have seen near new Turnberrys for less than the looks like it needs a rebuild 'classic' stuff.
Paul
Paul, I don't think that was quite what I was trying to say.
I'm not recommending anyone should lumber themselves with "tat".
A pair of Berkleys (if that's what appeals) still sounds superb even by modern standards and a good pair can be found for around £1000, which makes them a bargain in comparative terms even though they have doubled in price in the last five years.
You may have seen my thread on refurbishing a pair of Tannoy Cheviot 3128 speakers. I anticipate the whole project will end up costing between £650 and £700 and give me a pair of speakers which will sound and perform as well as say a pair of Tannoy Kensingtons at a tenth of the price.
I can understand somebody wanting to buy new though.
Paul, I don't think that was quite what I was trying to say.
I'm not recommending anyone should lumber themselves with "tat".
A pair of Berkleys (if that's what appeals) still sounds superb even by modern standards and a good pair can be found for around £1000, which makes them a bargain in comparative terms even though they have doubled in price in the last five years.
You may have seen my thread on refurbishing a pair of Tannoy Cheviot 3128 speakers. I anticipate the whole project will end up costing between £650 and £700 and give me a pair of speakers which will sound and perform as well as say a pair of Tannoy Kensingtons at a tenth of the price.
I can understand somebody wanting to buy new though.
Hi Geoff
I've heard a pair of re-furbished Cheviots and the newer 10 inch Kensingtons. The two are poles apart IMHO. The Kensingtons have much improved resolution over the Cheviots (even with new x-overs in the Cheviots), better (tauter and cleaner) bass which also seems to go deeper. I know that your drivers are a pretty rare breed but I wonder what difference there'd be from standard Cheviots?
The only two Tannoys (of the newer variety) that do it for me are the 10 inch models probably because of that taught bass and resolution. The Kensingtons seem to have a slight midrange edge over the Turnberrys in resolution and have a little more bass extension. I like some of the refurbed Tannoys I've heard but even 15 inch MGs in large cabinets just don't have the agility of the newer prestige 10 inch models.
People often listen to DC10s and DC20's and draw conclusions on new Tannoys by them but they're inferior by quite some margin IMHO compared with the Prestige range (with the exception of the 15 inch Glenair which is let down by the cabinet).
When we're looking at cost, a good used pair of Turnberry's fetches around £2k. That wouldn't buy a refurbed set of Reds or silvers these days. Given that the new prestige cabinets are also very well designed and (finally!) big enough for the drivers, it's a no-braner IMHO to go down the newer route. I priced a set of 12 inch MGs with a new cabinet and crossovers. I'd have had no change from £5K. Thats not great value compared to a new pair of Turnberrys. I wouldn't use the old cabs (Cheviots are an exception) as most, like Lancasters etc were woefully inadequate. The only exception that I can think of today are the Lockwood Majors at £2800 per pair (that is a stone cold bargain).
walpurgis
06-11-2012, 20:06
Well Paul,
The Cheviots are now up and running (though not finished).
Honestly, they probably exceed my expectations. They sound as smooth as any 'pepperpot' Tannoy I've heard, which I know isn't saying much, as many I've heard sounded a bit coarse towards the top end, but these sound really lovely, there's the typical Tannoy midrange lucidity and the bass is really clean and tight, the whole sound is very tactile and alive. I've no doubt the 3128 driver has the edge over the HPD 315 and the cabinets look to have extra interior bracing over the original Cheviot.
I can't compare comparitive bass extension as my small listening room won't accurately reproduce the last octave or so of deep bass.
These days, apart from collectors, I'm not sure why somebody would seek out Monitor Silvers or Reds. As you indicate, prices are becoming pretty serious and if you refurbished them you'd actually affect their value due to non-originality. An updated set of 12" or 15" Golds in the right cabinets (and right system and room) can sound beautiful. Sympathetic amplification is of course mandatory (not many people would choose Naim here for instance). The Gold series cabinets respond well to a bit of intelligent internal bracing to cut the panel thrum.
People should not dismiss the HPD series out of hand. The 12" is one of my least favourite drivers, but the 15" is just about indistinguishable from the Gold and the 10" is my favourite of the lot. It sounds lovely, I'm on my fifth pair of Tannoy Eatons since my first new pair years ago. The 295A driver is one of the sweetest sounding of all Tannoy duals and does not have Girdacoustic cones or rotting foam surrounds. its also a very good choice to use in home built larger cabinets.
The Turnbury is a nice speaker, but the tulip waveguide tweeter just does not give that last bit of midrange depth that the compression driver does compared to the Kensington or the older vintage models.
Hi Geoff
I think we're both of similar mind. You've done a splendid job on the refurbishment buy the way, it's a credit to you :). I totally agree RE the HPD comments as I've found the HPD's to sound fabulous with decent cross-overs in place. I can't altogether agree about the Tulip waveguide as I don't believe the difference is that great at all as long as the amp match is done with great care. In this respect, the Kensingtons pip the Turnberrys as they apparently are an easier amp match and there's no denying that their drivers have greater ultimate resolution. I know where you're coming from though. What I have found is that the amplifier choice makes a HUGE difference. I tried a Mastersound KT88 integrated hooked up to the Turnberrys and it altered the mid presence noticeably compared with the Croft power amp I'd been using. The mids gained that depth and smoothness as well as improved detail and it was all very even handed with none of the upper mid lift that I've found with other amps hooked up to the Turnberrys.
This is the interesting part. Some believe speaker first and some believe source or amp first. If you decide before all else to sort the power house out first and spend a great deal on a very good high quality Class A valve amp, then you're likely to get a good match with the Turnberrys, but the amp has got to be good. If you buy any old amp rated to drive most speakers of reasonable sensitivity (and by that I don't mean a budget amp) and then decide on Turnberrys then you are more than likely to be very disappointed . If you like what Tannoys do well (ie scale and imaging) and like the sound Turnberrys make, then taking care with amplifier choice isn't just desirable, its a must to get what they're capable of. Some may call this a flaw with the speakers and maybe they have something there, (nothings perfect in hifi) but you simply cannot judge or compare them unless first you know that the matching amp is the right synergistic (if you'll forgive the term!) match to deliver that tonal and dynamic balance.
I've managed to have quite a few amps hooked up to mine now, ranging from high end Class A valve amplification to 20 year old classics from Quad (405Mk2) and even an ION Obelsik (which was surprisingly good!). All were different. The speakers seem to allow a window on the upstream components like little else, but at the same time obviously have a funny response somewhere around the crossover point which may explain the upper mid issues with some amps. Get it right, and I can assure you there's no problems with that Tulip Waveguide. Several of us sat utterly captivated by the magical sounds emanating from the Turnberrys when Mastersound Integrated was hooked up to them...utterly sublime.
walpurgis
06-11-2012, 22:41
I have valve amplification Paul, but at the moment I've been driving my various Tannoys with Monarchy Audio SM-70 and SM-70 Pro, Class A solid state power amplifiers. The little beggars only have 35 watts, but grip the Tannoys very well, giving an extremely clean and sweet sound. I regard the Monarchys as an absolute bargain in sound terms, they offer amazing sound quality at the price and in some ways at any price.
Having now tried them with an OTO SE it's very clear they're not a good match
You do surprise me a bit by saying that as they sounded good to my ears, Dave at Heatherdale audio sold quite a few OTO-Tannoy based systems, just hope your next purchase lives up to what your expecting as i found SE 845's a bit lacking myself on the end of Tannoys having tried the Ming Da variety on mine.
I see have tried so it should all be good
Best of luck anyway
The Black Adder
07-11-2012, 08:05
I had a PP OTO... Sounded great with the Tannoys. For my taste in music (Rock, Electronica) PP is the way to go imo.
wiicrackpot
07-11-2012, 09:09
My experience is PP as well Joe, drove my factory re-coned Devon's with a Maxxed out WAD KIT88 amp (massive Sowter UO82s trannys and boutique parts inside)
and it gave nothing away to my newly acquired 12'inch Monitor Gold Chatsworth's, infact on the kind of genre you mentioned,
it was better but kept the MG's for posterity reason. :doh:
You do surprise me a bit by saying that as they sounded good to my ears, Dave at Heatherdale audio sold quite a few OTO-Tannoy based systems, just hope your next purchase lives up to what your expecting as i found SE 845's a bit lacking myself on the end of Tannoys having tried the Ming Da variety on mine.
I see have tried so it should all be good
Best of luck anyway
Hi John
The OTO SE is only 8 or 10W/channel and there's a pronounced mid range lift around the crossover point on 8Ohm taps which I found unlistenable to with voices and piano especially. Not worried by what other dealers pair them with but to my ears, the OTO and Turnberrys are not happy bedfellows. On the 4 ohm taps, the bass vanishes and the amp has to be driven too hard so its clearly not a good match.
845 has effortless drive by comparison and none of the mid range weirdness. I haven't tried the Ming Da 845, the one I've ordered is the Mastersound 845 Compact and as with nearly all Mastersound amps, the power supply and output transformers quality is superb, it's this to my mind which makes all the difference. No harm to Chinese amps as there's no doubt a few good ones out there, but I've yet to come across one that compares favourably with the Mastersound amps.
The Black Adder
07-11-2012, 13:50
Hi John
The OTO SE is only 8 or 10W/channel and there's a pronounced mid range lift around the crossover point on 8Ohm taps which I found unlistenable to with voices and piano especially. Not worried by what other dealers pair them with but to my ears, the OTO and Turnberrys are not happy bedfellows. On the 4 ohm taps, the bass vanishes and the amp has to be driven too hard so its clearly not a good match.
845 has effortless drive by comparison and none of the mid range weirdness. I haven't tried the Ming Da 845, the one I've ordered is the Mastersound 845 Compact and as with nearly all Mastersound amps, the power supply and output transformers quality is superb, it's this to my mind which makes all the difference. No harm to Chinese amps as there's no doubt a few good ones out there, but I've yet to come across one that compares favourably with the Mastersound amps.
Well we shouldn't compare.. totally different beasts. The 845 looks like a lovely bit of kit.
A few of you had previously PM'd me regarding some Tannoy stands that I had designed for the Prestige Range (Stirling and Turnberry). At long last I now have a pair completed and have some photos posted below. These have been made in solid European Walnut and I have taken a few design cues from the speaker cabinets. See what you think:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/IMG_5924.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/IMG_5925.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/_MG_5918.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/_MG_5928.jpg
I have just to add the bushes for the adjustable cones that will be used (not the supplied spikes) but for now, they are resting very solidly on my laminate flooring and are rock solid with the speakers coupled very well to the stands. Sound has improved too with a little extra clarity and cleaner bass as well as a noticeable improvement in detail due to the tweeters having been raised to ear height.
Hi Paul,
The stands look great, but i'll have to come back to you later as my wallet has just taken a hit on a new phonostage and cable!
Hope you are not feeling too poorly, wishing you a speedy recovery.
Some better pics:
http://referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/MG_59441.jpg
http://referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/MG_5948.jpg
Having had a chance now to properly evaluate the changes in presentation, it's been quite an eye opener for me to note just how improved (in my room with my kit at least) the Turnberrys now sound. I tried them back off the stands again but they didn't stay there long!
The thing that seems most improved is mid range clarity. If you have Tannoys and haven't got them properly grounded or raised to the proper level, do it! Try anything to start with even if it's a bunch of old telephone directories! Of course for those with wardrobe sized Tannoys, that won't be needed unless you like standing/using a step ladder when listening!
tannoyman
27-11-2012, 20:20
[QUOTE=Reffc;369328]You've hit the nail on the head David, the modern Prestige range are simply too expensive compared with the (better) vintage equivalents.
The reason they are so expensive is because the margins are obscene.(I have the numbers to prove this) The really devastating thing is that still even with margins at extortionate levels they are still happy to skin customers by using connectors that would be more at home in a washing machine, even on their flagship models. Welcome to the cynical world of high end audio. By the way their cost cutting cynicism even extends to selling their cabinets unsealed unpolished cabinets so in a short time they are looking well below par.
Apologies for outburst but imho this is one of the main reasons that high end audio in the uk is dying on its feet.
David :steam::steam:
I think that you have a point there David and it extends from cottage industries right the way up to major companies. One of the things that I didn't like was receiving my Tannoys with a couple of pots of polish...it felt like a bit of a DIY cheat and as it transpires, I have had to seal the grain and hand finish it before applying any polish in the first place. I didn't like the formulation supplied so instead have used a blend of beeswax and Carnuaba. I know from experience it'll take a god 10 coats before the finish starts to come up to scratch.
It's one of the ways though that companies like Tannoy can survive in the current global economic climate, but yes, margins are still IMHO generally too high with hifi. For the UK market, dealers could well afford to make slightly less margin on things like this which would allow the manufacturers to concentrate more effort to detail and quality which if properly done are areas that I for one wouldn't mind paying current prices for. Quality matters. The connectors are another hidden area where improvements are needed (and what can be reasonably said is that is one area that needn't hit profitability noticeably at all but can improve performance). Ditto with the way that the spikes/cups are designed but Tannoy are not alone. Most manufacturers fob customers off with almost identical spikes or feet. Its one of the reasons that drove me to coming up with a proper stand, and I can assure you that in the flesh, the quality of finish on those stands is head and shoulders above the finish of the speakers!
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 08:31
Hi Paul
I totally agree with your assessment. I actually discussed the connectors issue with Tannoy's MD.( it took me 4 months to get his attention) I said that £200 - £300 would solve all of the connector issues on the WR's. His comment was that £200 to £300 at manufacturing cost equated to £2000 to £3000 at retail price, in other words speakers that cost £15000 to buy cost £1500 to make. Now if I were to be frank I would say that that makes Tannoy greedy b.....ds. They believe that it is their God given right to short change customers. They talk of margins as they were pre-ordained rather than the consequence of a conscious management decision.
Regarding the cabinet finish, I used Fiddes Wood Finishing Oil which works well but nonetheless I maintain that as a customer I should not have to do it.
Anyway I shall alight from my soapbox now. Have a good day.
Kind regards
David:(:steam:
David
PS Good humour now restored :lol:
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 09:34
Greedy, maybe but like lots of other companies that have been 'bought out' via foreign investors they will more than likey have very strict targets to make so his hands will probably be tied with lots of red tape.
Sometimes companies are better off being written off if the current cost of production is too high for market to accept.
Obvoiusy I totally agree regarding quality. If I wanted to buy some 15k speakers I'd only expect the best in all areas.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 10:00
Obvoiusy I totally agree regarding quality. If I wanted to buy some 15k speakers I'd only expect the best in all areas.[/QUOTE]
Hi Joe
You have hit the nail on the head. I would take it a step further and say that there is an element of trust in this. When we buy expensive kit we trust the manufacturer to have used the best construction methods and most appropriate quality of components. We are not talking rocket science here. The importance of connectors and cables has been well understood for a very long time now. The Molex driver connector which Tannoy use is an absolute shocker both mechanically and sonically.
The reason I understand this so well is that I had to do my modifications in a particular sequence (as shown in my flow process chart in the paper) This was not done by design it was just the way it had to be done in my case. The particular sequence showed up this issue in stark relief because each operation showed very marked performance improvements.
The sequence was:
Clean & reconnect connectors
Remove 1st part of connector and make temporary connection
Install permanent tag block
I should make it clear that I love the Westminster Royals to bits and they now work superbly and I cannot imagine my music room without them. I just don't like being taken for a ride by manufacturers who pretend their product is 'state of the art' when they know that it is not.
Moan over
Have a good day
David :):cool:
Hmmm,
I very much doubt that £200 to £300 at manufacturing stages equates to 10 times that amount at retail. That sounds like a load of old guff you were fed David. For starters, it would NOT take £300 to sort the connections, more like £100 including labour and overheads. Manufacturing costs for a £15K set of speakers are likely to be more like £3K to £5K, not £1500, so what you were told David doesn't ring true.
I would have used an oil finish, but happened to have some Ercol wax which was used to restore an old piece of Ercol furniture, so I used that even though the final finish needs at least 20 coats. I use a car polishing buffer for the final finish!
I think that in the case of Tannoy, it is the accountants that run things but at some stage, companies who run things purely led by accountants need to learn the value of things, not just the cost. Losing UK custom because things like connectors and final finish are cut to the bone is just plain silly. Long term viability if it were considered would drive attention to detail in these areas as the implications, sooner or later, will hit the far East market too.
Alan Shaw manages to turn out a beautifully finished product with all of his Harbeth Speakers, and I would imagine has his company in a pretty good place financially so it can (and should) be done.
I totally agree with your assessment. I actually discussed the connectors issue with Tannoy's MD.( it took me 4 months to get his attention) I said that £200 - £300 would solve all of the connector issues on the WR's. His comment was that £200 to £300 at manufacturing cost equated to £2000 to £3000 at retail price, in other words speakers that cost £15000 to buy cost £1500 to make. Now if I were to be frank I would say that that makes Tannoy greedy b.....ds. They believe that it is their God given right to short change customers. They talk of margins as they were pre-ordained rather than the consequence of a conscious management decision.
Bloody hell...
The above is *precisely* what pisses me off about 'high-end' audio!! I deplore the general lack of SPPV in products. It's this 'greed for gold', by manufacturers (and some dealers) that is partly responsible for the dreadful state that the industry is in! :rolleyes:
Is it any wonder why many of us buy quality vintage gear instead?
Here's a thought: maybe if they reduced their extortionate profit margins, to a more realistic level, they'd actually sell more product? I also blame the brainless wonders, with more money than sense, who hand over their cash for grossly overpriced gear, without much thought for value, keeping the prices so high and these greedy fuckers in (some sort) of business.... Tossers! :wanker:
Marco.
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 10:17
We should get a few people together in the pub... lol, a great point to have a good moan on.
It's tiresome to find out things like this about one of the most regarded audio companies in the world. Churning out stuff for the unconcerned masses. The prestige range should be what it is... Prestige. No cut corners, no cheaping out. They should be the british equivelent of a swiss watch to which the older drivers Tannoy made in the 50's and 60's are now on par with.
The Swiss manage to do things right first time, it costs for sure but the heritage and knowing that it's worth the money is there.
Some companies need to take chances but it's typical british business practice that will only end up being wrapped up because there is no funding/help, regualtion, forethought or enthusiasm in their marketing and no confidence to reach for the zenth.
On another note and being in marketing myself (sorry, just a moan) it's dire to hear companies wanting to push FaceBook and Twiiter rather than getting out there and getting their hands dirty. It's becoming a lazy way of getting noticed... and it DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE. I've had some serious conversations with the Chamber about this... It's becoming very worrying indeed.
It's tiresome to find out things like this about one of the most regarded audio companies in the world. Churning out stuff for the unconcerned masses. The prestige range should be what it is... Prestige. No cut corners, no cheaping out. They should be the british equivelent of a swiss watch to which the older drivers Tannoy made in the 50's and 60's are now on par with.
The Swiss manage to do things right first time, it costs for sure but the heritage and knowing that it's worth the money is there.
Some companies need to take chances but it's typical british business that will only end up being wrapped up because there is no funding/help, regualtion, forethought or enthusiasm in their marketing and no confidence to reach for the zenth.
Post of the year, perhaps? :clap: :clap:
The bit in bold is the crux of the matter. I have no problem WHATSOEVER with speakers being sold for £15k, £30k or even £100k - providing that there's a bloody good reason for doing so, other than boosting the pension funds of some fat cats, keen on living a life of luxury in their old age (and giving the mug who's bought the speakers a sense of unjustified smug satisfaction)!!
Like you say, £15k speakers should be a totally NO COMPROMISE, no corners cut, design, where all the best available materials and components have been used. There should be no further 'improvements' necessary by the buyer on any speakers costing that amount of money. The fact that they can be improved so easily, as described, is nothing short of ridiculous (and also an utter disgrace)! :mental:
Marco.
Lets not forget folks that its not just Tannoy. In fact, Tannoy are head and shoulders above some others! I can't divulge the manufacturer but I learnt a few weeks ago that one "high end" speaker manufacturer pays around £50 each for it's treble units, uses cheaply veneered MDF cabinets and outsources cross-overs to China. Assembly is done outside the UK. lets just say that the speakers retail here for around £10K but cost the manufacturer less than £2K per pair. Its rife.
Chinese valve amps (most of them). An average one selling here for £600 or so costs less than £100 to make in China with current labour rates, and that includes the valves.
Lets switch outside of hifi and look a Jewellery. A Jeweller friend of mine has told me that most Jewellers won't get out of bed for any deal where mark ups are not at least 500% or more.
Its rife.
At least with Tannoy, we are still getting a well designed and reasonable quality product (lets not over-exaggerate, they are still a reasonable quality component compared with many and there isn't a piece of MDF in sight!) and the driver and crossover quality is good, even though the drivers do not hark back to the Rolls Royce standards of the 1960's and 1970's.
The only other loudspeaker that would tempt me over the Tannoys are the new Art floor standers, but at over £40K that's never going to happen. They are finished beautifully, they are properly internally wired, but at the end of the day, its only hifi for listening to music and a £40K investment I would consider plain silly for a pair of speakers unless I was a zillionnaire.
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 11:16
sure, the Tannoy range is a great range but when you pay 15k from such a well known company you would only expect top notch workmanship throughout.
Sure, I bet they sound superb as stock anyway but you should get what you pay for.
sure, the Tannoy range is a great range but when you pay 15k from such a well known company you would only expect top notch workmanship throughout.
Yup. Quite simply, there is no excuse whatsoever for anything else! :nono:
If the 'high-end' audio industry wants us, as audio enthusiasts, to support it (and one of the ways of doing so is to buy new products) then it must do something to encourage us to invest our hard-earned money, not drive us away into the vintage arena, in order to obtain satisfactory sound-per-pound value from our equipment.
The only way I'd ever drop £15k on new speakers (and I have the necessary funds) is if I was guaranteed of getting a very difficult time obtaining the same sonic performance by going the less expensive vintage (modded) route. At the moment, the latter is a no-brainer - and not just with speakers!
What should I buy something new if it sounds worse than what I've got?
Marco.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 13:20
[QUOTE=Reffc;387602]Hmmm,
I very much doubt that £200 to £300 at manufacturing stages equates to 10 times that amount at retail. That sounds like a load of old guff you were fed David.
Hi Paul
You really shouldn't comment on things you have no knowledge of.
That guff as you call it, came directly from the mouth of Andrzej Sosna, MD of Tannoy in the presence of Dr Paul Mills their Chief Designer, at the Bristol Show this year. So if it is guff, it is Tannoy's own guff. I was gobsmacked that it was said because if I were ripping customers off I would not be in a hurry to publicly admit it.
I suppose that this happend simply illustrates the arrogance of high end audio businesses in general and Tannoy in particular because they are certainly not alone.
I totally agree with Marco. If you are looking for a reason why the audio industry in the UK is a dead man walking and why it will continue to be so, look no further. In mitigation, when these guys meet customers they are usually faced with sycophants rather than customers who tell them the plain unvarnished truth. It can be very dangerous living in a bubble and believing your own publicity!
David :) :cool:
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 14:30
came directly from the mouth of Andrzej Sosna, MD of Tannoy in the presence of Dr Paul Mills their Chief Designer, at the Bristol Show this year. So if it is guff, it is Tannoy's own guff.
If that was so then...
BANG!
Another nail being driven in to the coffin of a company that's signed a deal with investors that's simply too tight and restricting. Either or it's greed but I'd wager the former. Buy-out investors have a plan and it's not a very long one, generally. That's pride fuckin witch'a.
If that was so then...
BANG!
Another nail being driven in to the coffin of a company that's signed a deal with investors that's simply too tight and restricting. Either or it's greed but I'd wager the former. Buy-out investors have a plan and it's not a very long one, generally. That's pride fuckin witch'a.
+1
[QUOTE=Reffc;387602]Hmmm,
I very much doubt that £200 to £300 at manufacturing stages equates to 10 times that amount at retail. That sounds like a load of old guff you were fed David.
Hi Paul
You really shouldn't comment on things you have no knowledge of.
That guff as you call it, came directly from the mouth of Andrzej Sosna, MD of Tannoy in the presence of Dr Paul Mills their Chief Designer, at the Bristol Show this year. So if it is guff, it is Tannoy's own guff. I was gobsmacked that it was said because if I were ripping customers off I would not be in a hurry to publicly admit it.
I suppose that this happend simply illustrates the arrogance of high end audio businesses in general and Tannoy in particular because they are certainly not alone.
I totally agree with Marco. If you are looking for a reason why the audio industry in the UK is a dead man walking and why it will continue to be so, look no further. In mitigation, when these guys meet customers they are usually faced with sycophants rather than customers who tell them the plain unvarnished truth. It can be very dangerous living in a bubble and believing your own publicity!
David :) :cool:
A little condescending David if you don't mind me saying so. As it happens, I have spoken directly with Tannoy and their world-wide distributor so I do know what they manufacture SOME of their loudspeakers for and what their margins are. I don't have that info on your particular models, so I can only say that if what your were told was true, then I do in fact share your shock and incredulity at the figures you mention. However, most companies will come back and say that they don't have to or need to justify their profits and that is very true, it is a free market economy. However, in today's climate it could be commercial suicide to admit as much and does nothing for customer belief or loyalty. Does that shatter my enjoyment of their products though? No, not by a long way. From what you've described, I would say that you are very happy with what you have too, just, that like me, it is not acceptable to have discovered some of the shortcomings of production. On that I think that we are all agreed.
Audioman
28-11-2012, 15:39
If that was so then...
BANG!
Another nail being driven in to the coffin of a company that's signed a deal with investors that's simply too tight and restricting. Either or it's greed but I'd wager the former. Buy-out investors have a plan and it's not a very long one, generally. That's pride fuckin witch'a.
It's about time those idiot politicians banned Investment and Foreign companies buying up UK firms. Contrary to the government plans to 'rebalance' the economy these deals will ensure there is no manufacturing left in the UK. Look at the list - TVR, LVD, EMI.... Cadbury's next? -and now they find these people avoid paying tax!!!
As far as Tannoy speakers are concerned, the fact you have to seal and polish the wood is an utter disgrace when relatively cheap speakers can be purchased with a superb finish. As for pricing, this is probably aimed at the Far East where more expensive equates to better and more desirable. Truth is though compared with other 'high end' speakers the Tannoy range is fairly modestly priced.
Paul.
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 15:53
it shouldn't ruin your enjoyment at all... Far from it, if they sound good to you in your drum then that's the main thing. But maybe there is room for even more improvement if you want to get in to that. Beware though, it's quite contagious. lol
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 16:02
[QUOTE=Reffc;387671][QUOTE=tannoyman;387654]
A little condescending David if you don't mind me saying so. As it happens, I have spoken directly with Tannoy and their world-wide distributor so I do know what they manufacture SOME of their loudspeakers for and what their margins are. I don't have that info on your particular models.
Hi Paul
Sorry if you felt put out by my comments but its the second time recently you have contradicted a post of mine when you know nothing about the subject matter. Last time I came back to you via a PM. This time it needed saying openly. If you stick your neck out and belittle other peoples' comments with no direct knowledge on the basis of opinion you must expect it to be chopped off publicly. Bluff and bluster simply won't cut it.
If you want to enter a debate when you have no first hand knowledge it's wise to ask for information or clarification rather tell the other guy he's wrong. It just might come back and bite you.
David :scratch:
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 16:05
It's about time those idiot politicians banned Investment and Foreign companies buying up UK firms. Contrary to the government plans to 'rebalance' the economy these deals will ensure there is no manufacturing left in the UK. Look at the list - TVR, LVD, EMI.... Cadbury's next? -and now they find these people avoid paying tax!!!
As far as Tannoy speakers are concerned, the fact you have to seal and polish the wood is an utter disgrace when relatively cheap speakers can be purchased with a superb finish. As for pricing, this is probably aimed at the Far East where more expensive equates to better and more desirable. Truth is though compared with other 'high end' speakers the Tannoy range is fairly modestly priced.
Paul.
Everyone is after a quick turn around. A quick cash in. Get in, do the deal, get the cash, get out and leave em to it... No proper regulation or mentoring, anyone can jump in, promise the world and bugger off before the spam hits the fan.
Yep... I think Paul has got the pick of the bunch though. I've heard his speakers and they are superb, the Glenair's on the other hand simply didn't pull out the rabbit.
I agree though, not finishing them is very slack indeed. Saying that, you could probably do a better job and make them look even more magnificent because the styling and design of the cabs are really quite nice.
If you are looking for a reason why the audio industry in the UK is a dead man walking and why it will continue to be so, look no further. In mitigation, when these guys meet customers they are usually faced with sycophants rather than customers who tell them the plain unvarnished truth. It can be very dangerous living in a bubble and believing your own publicity!
Ain't that the truth! :exactly:
What the high-end audio industry needs to do is stop pandering to the snobs with more money than sense, who buy into the 'prestige value' of certain brands and treat audio equipment as an 'aspirational' thing (like jewellery or wrist watches), and get back to ground roots and start appealing again to your average PROPER music and audio enthusiast, who's in the game for the RIGHT reasons and who wants the 'biggest bang for their buck', not a 'fancy' badge to admire and a cosy feeling of smug superiority, because they own £15k speakers, or whatever!!
Unless that happens, or until that happens, the high-end audio industry will go the way of the dodo, and all we'll be left with is fooking computer audio and the iPod/mobile phone generation. What a dreadful thought........ :(
Marco.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 16:22
Ain't that the truth! :exactly:
What the high-end audio industry needs to do is stop pandering to the snobs with more money than sense, who buy into the 'prestige value' of certain brands and treat audio equipment as an 'aspirational' thing, and get back to ground roots and start appealing again to your average PROPER music and audio enthusiast, who's in the game for the RIGHT reasons and who wants the 'biggest bang for their buck', not a 'fancy' badge to admire and a cosy feeling of smug superiority, because they own £15k speakers, or whatever!!
Unless that happens, or until that happens, the high-end audio industry will go the way of the dodo, and all we'll be left with is fooking computer audio and the iPod/mobile phone generation. What a dreadful thought........ :(
Marco.
Hi Marco
Absolutely spot on. I know I am a dinosaur but it grieves me see our superb hobby dumbed down. Computers are work and work is a pain in the arse. Music is pure pleasure and should be kept well away from computers, certainly in my world.
Hell will freeze over before I buy a download or go into computerised music. Computer components are purchased by the pound and should be treated accordingly. However, shooting myself in the foot I own an i Pod contradicting everything I have just said. What a humbug!!
David :lol:
The Black Adder
28-11-2012, 16:28
Unless that happens, or until that happens, the high-end audio industry will go the way of the dodo, and all we'll be left with is fooking computer audio and the iPod/mobile phone generation. What a dreadful thought........ :(
Marco.
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2009/04/woman-screaming.jpg
It's up to us then... We shall save the world.
Absolutely spot on.
Glad you agree, as it's what AoS will always stand for, and is at the core of our ethos.
We will always champion what is in the best interests of the 'punter' and challenge the greed prevalent in certain areas of the industry, as it's a disease that could eventually kill our beloved hobby.
However, shooting myself in the foot I own an i Pod contradicting everything I have just said. What a humbug!!
I have absolutely no use for one, so I don't own one. Simples! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
Absolutely spot on. I know I am a dinosaur but it grieves me see our superb hobby dumbed down. Computers are work and work is a pain in the arse. Music is pure pleasure and should be kept well away from computers, certainly in my world.
Hell will freeze over before I buy a download or go into computerised music. Computer components are purchased by the pound and should be treated accordingly. However, shooting myself in the foot I own an i Pod contradicting everything I have just said. What a humbug!!
David :lol:
:rfl:
I must admit David, I feel the same way about computerised music but having heard some great sounds played via laptop, it's less the music quality I have a problem with, its the association with the computer keyboard and screen. It's like you never get a break from the bleeping things! It hit home a few days ago...whilst I'm still in convalescent mode I had a visitor who was amazed that I still use "ceeee deeees" (the irony was that he had nothing against the LPs). He found it very odd that all my CD collection wasn't on laptop being "streamed" across to my DAC then the amp.
I responded that I'd had enough of streams for one week (ok, rivers) and that the music didn't really seem to mind if it was stored on the shelves and spun up on the ancient old (2year old) archaic CDP.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 17:25
Hi Marco
My only excuse for my flexible principles is that I cannot get my system in the car
David :lol:
Glad you agree, as it's what AoS will always stand for, and is at the core of our ethos.
We will always champion what is in the best interests of the 'punter' and challenge the greed prevalent in certain areas of the industry, as it's a disease that could eventually kill our beloved hobby.
I have absolutely no use for one, so I don't own one. Simples! :)
Marco.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 17:38
:rfl:
I must admit David, I feel the same way about computerised music but having heard some great sounds played via laptop, it's less the music quality I have a problem with, its the association with the computer keyboard and screen. It's like you never get a break from the bleeping things! It hit home a few days ago...whilst I'm still in convalescent mode I had a visitor who was amazed that I still use "ceeee deeees" (the irony was that he had nothing against the LPs). He found it very odd that all my CD collection wasn't on laptop being "streamed" across to my DAC then the amp.
I responded that I'd had enough of streams for one week (ok, rivers) and that the music didn't really seem to mind if it was stored on the shelves and spun up on the ancient old (2year old) archaic CDP.
Hi Paul
It reminds me of the old mashed potato ad (Yeoman??) with extra terrestrials cackling that earthlings peel potatoes with a KNIFE.
David :lol::lol:
montesquieu
28-11-2012, 17:52
I can't say I'm too surprised at this. However the reality of the situation is that in production engineering, as opposed to an artisan-type scenario (think the high-end LV horn speakers or Audio Note Fifth Element DAC, for example, where cost is no object and the customers are minor country dictators or Russian oligarchs), action has to be taken to minimise cost while impacting performance as little as possible.
Everything is a compromise and Tannoy learned well from Henry Ford about the psychology of marketing through model engineering (matching price and feature, a bigger driver in this model, a better crossver in that one, a better cabinet over here).
Will Tannoy lose a sale because of crap connectors or poor finish? Well they might ... if they get feedback that they are losing too many they will look again at this particular compromise. My guess is though that they don't lose too many customers from this. Whether that changes if there are more disgruntled customers posting in threads like this one, that would be interesting to watch.
A nice place for dealers to add value though I would have thought with dealer special editions that rectify product deficiencies, for the effort of a decent wax and polish and a box of WBT speaker posts (and maybe some nice internal wiring as well). If customers can be persuaded to pay the extra (or forego a discount).
I can't say I'm too surprised at this. However the reality of the situation is that in production engineering, as opposed to an artisan-type scenario (think the high-end LV horn speakers or Audio Note Fifth Element DAC, for example, where cost is no object and the customers are minor country dictators or Russian oligarchs), action has to be taken to minimise cost while impacting performance as little as possible.
Everything is a compromise and Tannoy learned well from Henry Ford about the psychology of marketing through model engineering (matching price and feature, a bigger driver in this model, a better crossver in that one, a better cabinet over here).
Will Tannoy lose a sale because of crap connectors or poor finish? Well they might ... if they get feedback that they are losing too many they will look again at this particular compromise. My guess is though that they don't lose too many customers from this. Whether that changes if there are more disgruntled customers posting in threads like this one, that would be interesting to watch.
A nice place for dealers to add value though I would have thought with dealer special editions that rectify product deficiencies, for the effort of a decent wax and polish and a box of WBT speaker posts (and maybe some nice internal wiring as well). If customers can be persuaded to pay the extra (or forego a discount).
I happen to agree with you Tom. Marketing and accountancy are very closely linked and a business plan one would have thought should have a variable in the equation somewhere that included customer views!
As to dealers doing the extra work themselves at the cost of some profit...well the better ones might but the incentive isn't really there if sales are low volume in the first place.
There are a few interesting analogies such as (bear with me) during the 1970's and early 1980's when Laverda imported their triple cylinder machines into the UK, the bike basically needed finishing in terms of engineering, so a company called Jota took up the challenge and most Laverda triples sold were from the Jota stable. Slightly different I know. Same applies with some cars (special tuning models such as STi Subarus). Where speakers are concerned the issue should be as you rightly point out, ie do the cost cutting measures significantly affect performance? If yes, and the "fix" isn't too costly, then it could be considered a no-brainer to make the improvements.
Yes, Paul, but no "fix" should be necessary in the first place on a pair of £15k speakers - they should be perfect in every way!!
Marco.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 20:27
[QUOTE=montesquieu;387718]I can't say I'm too surprised at this. However the reality of the situation is that in production engineering, as opposed to an artisan-type scenario (think the high-end LV horn speakers or Audio Note Fifth Element DAC, for example, where cost is no object and the customers are minor country dictators or Russian oligarchs), action has to be taken to minimise cost while impacting performance as little as possible.
Hi Tom
Firstly Henry Ford is an unfortunate example. He was operating at the 'cheap as chips' mass market sector of the early car market where they definitely did make to a price. In the food industry in which I worked, we called it the belly filling end of the market. The Tannoy Prestige Range is aimed at the luxury end of the audio market where customers expect and demand higher standards, where reputation is everthing, and where you take liberties at your peril. Nothing travels quite like bad news.
You've clearly been the victim of some marketing hype if you believe that Audio Note is different. A little while ago I had a conversation with an audio engineer I know who is very familiar with Audio Note and he told me of a conversation he had with Peter Qvortrup which went something like this.
Q "Peter tell me why are your products so expensive?"
A "Because it makes them desirable"
I suggest that like Tannoy and others, Audio Note treat their customers like the con man's mark. A few years ago I was offered a pair of Audio Note Kegon monoblock power amps which retailed at £28k, for £12k (new) and the dealer (no names, no pack drill) was still making a worthwhile profit. Draw your own conclusions.
Another friend has just had to return a 3 yr old faulty Audio Note preamp, which he purchased new, for replacement of switches and rectification of dry solder joints - just out of warranty unfortunately for him. The cost of the repairs was a substantial three figure sum. I rest my case Milud. The correllation between cost of manufacture and selling price at the premium end of the market is 0. This little example shows that there is also very limited correlation between cost and quality at this end of the market.
Sorry to disagree but even some small supposedly elite boutique manufacturers are at it.
David :):)
Q "Peter tell me why are your products so expensive?"
A "Because it makes them desirable"
I've never understood that concept or the mindset that falls for it. Expensive means nothing to me unless the title is earned through relevant criteria, other than just price!
Marco.
montesquieu
28-11-2012, 20:35
I think you miss both my points David, the Henry Ford mention was a simple one about model engineering - Tannoy may indeed operate at the prestige end of the market but they still follow the same rules around making product choice complicated through sophisticated versioning - unless you buy the top of the line the customer is always making some sort of compromise and there is always a compelling reason to buy the next model up. (Marketing 101).
As for the Audio Note example the range runs from mass produced cheap as chips pretty ordinary gear, to hand-made, no expense spared artisan versions, with kilos of silver wire and the very best caps, for which they charge best part of £100k. I doubt very much if there are any dry joints in the Fifth Element model I spoke about.
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 20:49
I think you miss both my points David, the Henry Ford mention was a simple one about model engineering - Tannoy may indeed operate at the prestige end of the market but they still follow the same rules around making product choice complicated through sophisticated versioning - unless you buy the top of the line the customer is always making some sort of compromise and there is always a compelling reason to buy the next model up. (Marketing 101).
As for the Audio Note example the range runs from mass produced cheap as chips pretty ordinary gear, to hand-made, no expense spared artisan versions, with kilos of silver wire and the very best caps, for which they charge best part of £100k. I doubt very much if there are any dry joints in the Fifth Element model I spoke about.
Hi Tom
My reference was to the former flagship Tannoy model the Westminster Royal HE (now superceded)
That's right they do and its the expensive stuff that I am talking about. The silver price is almost irrelevant. If ther is a kilogram of silver in them which I doubt, it's only £600 worth so that's a complete red herring.
Regards
David
montesquieu
28-11-2012, 20:57
That's right they do and its the expensive stuff that I am talking about. The silver price is almost irrelevant. If ther is a kilogram of silver in them which I doubt, it's only £600 worth so that's a complete red herring.
And the effort to turn lumps of silver into workable annealed wire, and wind it, and select and create decent core material, not to mention the initial transformer design, that's free is it?
To say there's £600 silver in it therefore it's a ripoff is rather an extreme over-simplification. I'm sure no company would want to launch anything that expensive on the market without SERIOUS R&D behind it which is hard to recoup on small volume production.
Market positioning via pricing is also Marketing 101 BTW and your point there about price and desirability is pretty much a given.
But anyway the point I was making was all about artisan vs mass produced construction, you may not like AN but even you would surely concede that not all of their kit, both low volume high and and mass-produced ordinary gear, is made to the same standard (let alone by the same people).
That's right they do and its the expensive stuff that I am talking about. The silver price is almost irrelevant. If ther is a kilogram of silver in them which I doubt, it's only £600 worth so that's a complete red herring.
Indeed, David. I'd love to see an exact breakdown of parts costs, which leads to ANY amplifier costing £100k. It's bullshit!
Come on, Tom, let's get real...
The only reason for any amplifier costing such a ridiculous amount of money, is manufacturers deciding 'what the market will stand', or in other words, what the clowns with more money than sense, who get a stiffy from buying 'audiophile jewellery', are stupid enough to pay!! ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
28-11-2012, 21:24
Indeed, David. I'd love to see an exact breakdown of parts costs, which leads to ANY amplifier costing £100k. It's bullshit!
Come on, Tom, let's get real...
The only reason for any amplifier costing such a ridiculous amount of money, is manufacturers deciding 'what the market will stand', or in other words, what the clowns with more money than sense, who get a stiffy from buying 'audiophile jewellery', are stupid enough to pay!! ;)
Marco.
Up to a point, Marco. But a high price tag also allows complete 'no compromise' construction using the best of the best, the rarest of the rarest, as well as a very large amount of R&D.
As for who buys this stuff, well I'm with you on that!
Up to a point, Marco. But a high price tag also allows complete 'no compromise' construction using the best of the best, the rarest of the rarest, as well as a very large amount of R&D.
Regardless of whatever materials are used in the making of equipment by a manufacturer, the asking price offered to customers, to buy the end product, should always be realistic and fair within the relevant context.
I don't believe that ANY amplifier, no matter what is inside it, justifies a price tag of £100k. It's ridiculous, and neither realistic nor fair. Jeez, you could buy a bloody nice house for that (at least you could up here)!!
My own Tube Distinctions valve amplifier is hand-built from scratch, has a solid-copper chassis, is point-to-point wired throughout and uses hand-wound transformers, and some of the best components one can buy - and it 'only' costs £5k.
Aside from the silver thing, how do we get from there to £100k? The ownership of a more 'prestigious' badge? Greater bragging rights? ;)
Marco.
I think Marco that a certain price levels (and I'm with you on this one, trust me) manufacturers do not seek to justify the cost. That's not what the product is all about, justifying every last penny. There are countless examples of hifi exotica which may have taken years to perfect before one was even sold, and there is a cost associated with all that R&D, and at the high end, its not cheap. The way I see it, it falls into several camps: camp 1 is where people "test" the market as you rightly suggest, and the cost bears no relationship to the value, rather the worth (not necessarily in pounds shillings and pence). This is where pee taking goes on....a lot.
The second area is where it may have taken 5 years or more to develop, lets say, an amp. It may have involved thousands of person-hours and many thousands of pounds, and thats before product manufacture. They may only sell say ten of these amps...ever, so they know that they are appealing to a small and very wealthy segment and the charges do reflect that. The buyers, I would suggest, rarely pay RRP. Its a starter for 10 and no-one forces anyone to sign on the dotted line.
However, where David and yourself are spot on is where expectations are generated (and here I do mean manufactured) at the lower to mid end of the market, product turn-over is high, marketing budgets are high and expected revenues are equally high. This is where huge profit margins are made, and the expectation of value for money for something costing several thousand to say 20K (ie within the means of many enthusiasts at some stage in their journey) is high. Where we subsequently judge performance and find fault not directly, but in a roundabout way (ie change amps several times to find it was a speaker design fault or component fault all along, or change speakers only to find it was an amp design or component fault) and then to find that the manufacturer at very little cost could and should have rectified these issues could be reasonably viewed as quite damning.
I think I'm right in saying that this is what David was trying to get across but whilst a perfectly valid and true statement, it differs I think from what Tom was saying. I think Toms point is that it is good manufacturing sense and practice to generate not just economies of scale and unit construction techniques but it is also understandable if the very best components are not always used where the manufacturer genuinely believes that it is of no benefit and would increase costs unnecessarily. Saying all of that, I do think that anyone contemplating £100K on an amplifer has perhaps lost the plot somewhere long the way, unless they happen to be a squillionnaire!
montesquieu
28-11-2012, 22:11
My own amplifier is hand-built from scratch, point-to-point wired throughout, and uses hand-wound transformers and some of the best components one can buy - and it costs £5k.
Aside from the silver thing, how do we get from there to £100k?
Marco.
Seriously thinking about getting Anthony to do me one too, given I already have its little brother ...
Lol... Now we're back in the real world! Trust me, you'd LOVE a Copper amp ;)
If only the high-end audio industry contained more Anthony Matthews' and Glenn Crofts, people who are passionate about building the best quality equipment, but for the right reasons, then the industry (and our hobby) might not be in such shit.................
Marco.
P.S Paul, I'll get to your post tomorrow. For a change, I'm having an early night :)
tannoyman
28-11-2012, 23:18
And the effort to turn lumps of silver into workable annealed wire, and wind it, and select and create decent core material, not to mention the initial transformer design, that's free is it?
To say there's £600 silver in it therefore it's a ripoff is rather an extreme over-simplification. I'm sure no company would want to launch anything that expensive on the market without SERIOUS R&D behind it which is hard to recoup on small volume production.
Market positioning via pricing is also Marketing 101 BTW and your point there about price and desirability is pretty much a given.
But anyway the point I was making was all about artisan vs mass produced construction, you may not like AN but even you would surely concede that not all of their kit, both low volume high and and mass-produced ordinary gear, is made to the same standard (let alone by the same people).
Hi Tom
I think that you are under the spell and you misquote me. What I am saying is that AN use the silver price to justify high costs but it does not even come close to doing so. I have heard AN gear sounding good but they don't even provide decent design and casework for the extortionate prices they charge. The marketing is however very clever. All customers are "friends" so knocking AN has all the appeal of kicking the family dog "I got such a good price". It feels like betrayal and makes changing horses very difficult for incumbent owners.
I know of only one (correction three) UK manfacturers who I would genuinely trust in terms of their pricing and genuine commitment to their quality to their customers and AN isn't one of them.
Kind regards
David
montesquieu
29-11-2012, 01:49
I know of only one UK manfacturer who I would genuinely trust in terms of their pricing and genuine commitment to their quality to their customers and it isn't AN.
HI David
I think you are very unfair to AN. My experience of AN has been of exceptional service, extreme friendliness (not just PQ but anyone else I've dealt with) as well as some pretty good deals on s/h kit particularly.
Just wonder how many times you've actually dealt with them to come up with this opinion?
That's not to do down other UK manufacturers, but from my experience (of Linn, EAR, Sugden and others far smaller) they are easily one of the best.
The Black Adder
29-11-2012, 14:37
PQ is a nice fella, spoke to him quite a few times... But I do think the prices are a bit last decade. They seem to never change... lol Saying that. They have a fantastic brand and no matter what their kit does sound really cool.
tannoyman
29-11-2012, 15:48
PQ is a nice fella, spoke to him quite a few times... But I do think the prices are a bit last decade. They seem to never change... lol Saying that. They have a fantastic brand and no matter what their kit does sound really cool.
Hi Joe
You are right it can sound good but you should qualify by adding "when its working" My secondhand info would indicate that it often isn't.
David :)
montesquieu
29-11-2012, 15:50
Hi Joe
You are right it can sound good but you should qualify by adding "when its working" My secondhand info would indicate that it often isn't.
David :)
How much of your info is actually first-hand, Dave? Kind of has a bearing on how seriously we should take your pronouncements on the subject.
tannoyman
29-11-2012, 16:18
As I said my info is secondhand in that I do not own, and am unlikely ever own AN kit. However I have a number of friends who do and two of them have had to get their stuff back to Brighton for the kiss of life in the last year for issues which imo they should not have had.
How much of your info is actually first-hand, Dave? Kind of has a bearing on how seriously we should take your pronouncements on the subject.
montesquieu
29-11-2012, 16:19
As I said my info is secondhand in that I do not own, and am unlikely ever own AN kit. However I have a number of friends who do and two of them have had to get their stuff back to Brighton for the kiss of life in the last year for issues which imo they should not have had.
Sample of how many then?
Jeez.
tannoyman
29-11-2012, 17:08
Sample of how many then?
Jeez.
2 out of 3 that I know of. The 3rd would not own up even if he had issues. I would also say that in spite of their problems they remain comitted to AN
I can see you are a bit steamed up over this but whatever you might think I am only commenting on the basis of what I have seen. I would also say that I am just a critical of other manufacturers including kit that I own or have owned when I think it is warranted. I am also happy to draw attention to the good things I see.
As an AN devotee you will no doubt look down your nose at my next comment but nonetheless I make no apology for it. One company I would praise highly would be Icon Audio. Great products at realistic prices and exemplary service (and silver wired, except transformers - even the base models) I have had 5 of their amplifiers in my music room over a 5 year period and all have been superb and on a couple of occasions when I experienced problems they were solved quickly and efficiently. On one of the two occasions that included replacement output valves delivered by hand to my door the same day at no cost.
This kind of site has no value if we all view the world through rose coloured glasses. Tell it as is and shame the devil. Nothing will improve if we don't.
David ;)
montesquieu
29-11-2012, 17:40
As an AN devotee you will no doubt look down your nose at my next comment but nonetheless I make no apology for it. One company I would praise highly would be Icon Audio. Great products at realistic prices and exemplary service (and silver wired, except transformers - even the base models) I have had 5 of their amplifiers in my music room over a 5 year period and all have been superb and on a couple of occasions when I experienced problems they were solved quickly and efficiently. On one of the two occasions that included replacement output valves delivered by hand to my door the same day at no cost.
I know the Icon stuff well ... I have heard quite a bit of it including assorted phono and power amps in my own system - indeed I currently have MB845 Signature monoblocks in my system on loan.
It's excellent for the money but it has its limitations .. for example, while beefy and powerful, with the 15in MGs I found the MB845s don't have nearly the subtlety of the Tube Distinctions KT88 amp I have, which is just as good in the bass, and overall the MB845 sound can be a bit on the 'thick' side. I found this same comparative lack of subtlety with some of the other Icon kit as well (I guess it depends on the quality of your sources and what music you listen to whether you hear this, or whether this bothers you or not).
Both Icon and AN have quite a wide range in price and positioning .. Icon do have some modestly priced stuff but the 845s are about £7k new now, hardly cheap - they started at under £2k a few years ago so obviously having built the brand, they are going for higher prices too.
I agree with you the Icon stuff is good kit for the money but it doesn't quite reach up into the AN high end space, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't claim to.
tannoyman
29-11-2012, 17:55
I know the Icon stuff well ... I have heard quite a bit of it including assorted phono and power amps in my own system - indeed I currently have MB845 Signature monoblocks in my system on loan.
It's excellent for the money but it has its limitations .. for example, while beefy and powerful, with the 15in MGs I found the MB845s don't have nearly the subtlety of the Tube Distinctions KT88 amp I have, which is just as good in the bass, and overall the MB845 sound can be a bit on the 'thick' side. I found this same comparative lack of subtlety with some of the other Icon kit as well (I guess it depends on the quality of your sources and what music you listen to whether you hear this, or whether this bothers you or not).
Both Icon and AN have quite a wide range in price and positioning .. Icon do have some modestly priced stuff but the 845s are about £7k new now, hardly cheap - they started at under £2k a few years ago so obviously having built the brand, they are going for higher prices too.
I agree with you the Icon stuff is good kit for the money but it doesn't quite reach up into the AN high end space, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't claim to.
Hi Tom
We should simply agree to disagree on this. You love AN. I do not.
David:)
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