View Full Version : Which Tannoys, folks?
The Black Adder
02-02-2013, 22:03
Hi Paul.
What I've learnt recently is that Formica is a more professional choice of veneer as it's rock solid and strengthens the flex of wood, my lockwoods are veneered with it. It also adds to the weight substantially.
Might be something to try in the future.
Indeed... Originally, I considered the use of Formica on my Lockies as something rather quaintly vintage, but then later learned that it's a bloody good material, sonically, for a speaker veneer.
I was therefore warned by people in the know that my Lockwoods would not sound the same if I re-veneered them in something 'tidier' looking (as I had intended to do), so I've left them well alone!
Brown Formica, castors, strangely made non-removable grilles and side-handles, and they sound freakin' amazing. You gotta love the charm of these babies... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Rare Bird
02-02-2013, 22:21
Trouble with that stuff is you can't hide the end/sides unless it's set in.
The Black Adder
02-02-2013, 22:47
You can 'edge' the edges to a matching colour, don't ask me how but mine are done like that (Marco's will be too I should imagine) and look very tidy indeed.
Professional job by the brown coats at Lockwood back in the 50's/60's.
A recommended alternative to veneer, Paul.
Sorry chaps but I would rather drown myself in a vat of pickled eggs than have a piece of Formica anywhere near my speakers!:stalks: It may well be excellent sonically as something to form a compound lamination with but another answer surely is to use birch ply in place of the chip board in the first place? Formica...yuck! :lol::lol::lol: I guess it doesn't matter what you use but the prinicple is the same....lamination of materials with different resonant properties combined such that their natural resonant frequency isn't excited within the audio bandwidth or more accurately, is designed such that resonant decay time is minimised (the opposite of "ringing"). Worst material by far if left untreated has to be MDF. Some chip boards are actually very good (better in fact than some plywoods) and dense ply with a high resin/pva content (courtesy of lots of thin laminations) possibly the best of the timber based materials?
Its a whole other topic and one worthy of a thread on it's own but lets leave Formica out of it, unless it's to restore a '60's kitchen;):lol: (tongue firmly in cheek just in case the Formica police come after me....)
The Black Adder
02-02-2013, 22:54
lol... yuck as may be but WOW!
Hehehe... Formica rools ok, ya bass!
In all seriousness, though, quite a few people come to hear my system, and the vast majority of them like the 'retro' look of the Lockwoods (and these are people who would soon tell me if they didn't). Then once they hear them, their admiration takes on another dimension.... :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
02-02-2013, 23:15
Sorry chaps but I would rather drown myself in a vat of pickled eggs than have a piece of Formica anywhere near my speakers!:stalks: It may well be excellent sonically as something to form a compound lamination with but another answer surely is to use birch ply in place of the chip board in the first place? Formica...yuck! :lol::lol::lol: I guess it doesn't matter what you use but the prinicple is the same....lamination of materials with different resonant properties combined such that their natural resonant frequency isn't excited within the audio bandwidth or more accurately, is designed such that resonant decay time is minimised (the opposite of "ringing"). Worst material by far if left untreated has to be MDF. Some chip boards are actually very good (better in fact than some plywoods) and dense ply with a high resin/pva content (courtesy of lots of thin laminations) possibly the best of the timber based materials?
Its a whole other topic and one worthy of a thread on it's own but lets leave Formica out of it, unless it's to restore a '60's kitchen;):lol: (tongue firmly in cheek just in case the Formica police come after me....)
Mmmmm. Pickled eggs!
Anyway, formica is very stiff and has a laminar structure, but no real directional grain as such (although the manufacture is linear). I doubt it offers much in the way of panel damping, but it will certainly add to the stiffness (and weight) of panels.
It is hard wearing to a point, the surface is hard, but the edges chip fairly easily.
I agree that chipboard can be good, it is pretty resistant to vibration, unlike MDF and hard (birch) ply is even worse. Just try tapping a board of each and you'll see what I mean.
Regardless of material choice though, much panel resonance can be largely cut by intelligently utilised cabinet bracing.
The Black Adder
03-02-2013, 07:11
Hehehe... Formica rools ok, ya bass!
In all seriousness, though, quite a few people come to hear my system, and the vast majority of them like the 'retro' look of the Lockwoods (and these are people who would soon tell me if they didn't). Then once they hear them, their admiration for them takes on another dimension.... :eyebrows:
Marco.
+1 - I (and the wife) like the look. Which is cool... Proper job.
There's been a fair amount of study into panel resonance and Ply came out pretty well (measured using an accelerometer with energy applied to the panels and the decay times and amplitudes measured). Just rapping a panel tells you little about it's resonant behaviour in this respect although it can indicate the stiffness and density of what's been used. Sturdy braced cabs in virtually any material are fine....MDF is terrible but suitably braced or damped, it works fine (which is why 90% of all mass produced speakers use it...that and the fact it's cheap and easy to machine and finish). Hear what you're saying chaps about Formica and would agree that it looks fine (and is easy to care for, doesn't stain etc). Personal choice for me are real wood veneers.
Old big IMF's used to use walnut grained formica and looked good until excessive sunlight caused the edges to lift :)
Nowt wrong with MDF as long as the designer knows what it does and can deal with it accordingly. I believe Harbeth now use it - thin and with copious added damping - and their boxes are incredibly "dead" and with just a tiny amount of resonance at 900Hz or so, well down in level and around the modest distortion levels I believe. Speakers are the worst and most distorted part of any HiFi system, together with the listening room, so do what you need to do and do it carefully and well :)
Old big IMF's used to use walnut grained formica and looked good until excessive sunlight caused the edges to lift :)
Nowt wrong with MDF as long as the designer knows what it does and can deal with it accordingly. I believe Harbeth now use it - thin and with copious added damping - and their boxes are incredibly "dead" and with just a tiny amount of resonance at 900Hz or so, well down in level and around the modest distortion levels I believe. Speakers are the worst and most distorted part of any HiFi system, together with the listening room, so do what you need to do and do it carefully and well :)
Precisely David. It's not so much about what is used but why it's used and about the care that's put into the work. The proof should be in the listening.
Progress: All done now except for fitting refurbished drivers. Today's progress:
Silver plated copper binding posts fitted to Oak Backed Board and cross over wires soldered into place:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6165_zps4507c16b.jpg
Rear of cabinet showing the new Oak backed board fitted with new binding posts:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6170_zpsf93f2b30.jpg
New Cross-overs...wiring being prepared for soldering:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6176_zps06c48e9b.jpg
First Cross-over fitted into place on the rear cabinet panel. Rubber grommets installed between PCB and cabinet panel to help dampen PCB:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6168_zps5d64cff7.jpg
Long Lambswool wadding fitted into place...just puched into corners in between existing foam joints. Not too much to start with...this may be an aspect that needs fine tuning by the addition or removal of more wadding:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6173_zpscfdf48d8.jpg
2nd cross-over fitted into cabinet. Wadding was added to this one after the photo was taken. Just need to install the drivers which should be with me this week and all's finished:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6177_zps95eebbe4.jpg
Guess what arrived today? :eyebrows:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6179_zpsf300fa74.jpg
...and insitu currently dwarfing the Turnberrys, and remember these are Turnberrys raised up on 10 inch stands:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6178_zpsbe95a558.jpg
With new rejuvenated grilles fitted:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6185_zpsc858927f.jpg
I plugged them in, and let the amp warm up a little before putting on a CD and sitting down with a coffee....the coffee almost ended up in my lap...a bass drum kicked in with such force and realism it could have been in the room...what followed was 10 minutes trying to pick my jaw up off the ground.
These are without a shadow of a doubt the most dynamic sounding speakers I've probably ever heard...at any budget...anywhere. Utterly astonishing scale, effortlessness, timbral accuracy which I simply was not expecting...and that BASS! The Mansfield cabinets are superb and must rank as one of the best sounding vintage Tannoys I've heard. less pipe and slippers than even the Turnberrys! (and they're no slouches!).
I'm blown away and these have yet to be run in so will only get better. I can' take the credit for this as most of the performance is due to the original cabs (design), Lockwoods for making the HPDs better than new, and finding a crossover that has brought these bang up to date in terms of resolution and even handedness without a single hint of Tannoy honk...and I mean nothing, anywhere in the frequency range that I can detect. I'm glad now that I put the effort in on the cabs, hardwiring and detail. I'm blown away.
I could say I told you so, so I will: I told you so!! :eyebrows:
You can't beat the vintage drive units in proper cabinets, modified with new crossovers. No modern Tannoys can produce the same magic! :nono:
Enjoy, Paul. I predict that you'll not be going to bed very early tonight..... ;)
Marco.
I could say I told you so, so I will: I told you so!! :eyebrows:
You can't beat the vintage drive units in proper cabinets, modified with new crossovers. No modern Tannoys can produce the same magic! :nono:
Enjoy, Paul. I predict that you'll not be going to bed very early tonight..... ;)
Marco.
It'll be a late listening search tonight as Verdi beckons. They sound awesome driven by the big Luxman. I have another driving force in the wings courtesy of a specially modded Croft pre (on its way) mated to some VAC PA60 KT88 monoblocks. That combo with these Tannoys could just make me re-evaluate hifi.
I think you could be right - Croft stuff is awesome and KT88 amps with vintage Tannoys is a marriage made in heaven (although 120s are even better)! :)
Marco.
Paul- talented people such as yourself really give the ump!:)
The " new Tannoys" look awesome! and l am so glad they are working out for you- and they are not even run in yet, a real labour of love:cool:
Paul- talented people such as yourself really give the ump!:)
The " new Tannoys" look awesome! and l am so glad they are working out for you- and they are not even run in yet, a real labour of love:cool:
Thank you Andy although I don't know about the "talented" bit :lol:
If anything, after playing a load of albums now, they're a little toppy, most un-Tannoy like but I reckon its the drivers needing loads of hours yet to bed in. I played Massive Attack's "Angel" track pretty loud and the bass rattled the light fittings on the ceiling and the door to the living room which wasn't properly closed appeared to be sucked open then shut again:stalks::eek: That was a bit of a giggle...they certainly move air. As they settle, I'm sure that the bass will loosen up a little and even out things more. As it stands, they sound better than any of the newer Tannoys I've heard.
Happy to pass on the design and dimensions of these cabs if anyone fancies a go at some DIY Mansfields. Also happy to have these cabs made (or any other Tannoy designs come to that) for folk who may have some 12 inch HPDs that they're wondering what to do with!
The Black Adder
06-02-2013, 21:39
I think you could be right - Croft stuff is awesome and KT88 amps with vintage Tannoys is a marriage made in heaven (although 120s are even better)! :)
Marco.
+1+1+1+1
I can't believe how this KT88 amp sounds with Tannoy MG's...
Fookin monstaaaah!
__
Paul, they look top matey... Great to see the pics too! :stalks:
Paul - don't bother re-evaluating "HiFi," as it's a complete waste of time. Just play your music instead and forget the audio journey..... :)
Paul - don't bother re-evaluating "HiFi," as it's a complete waste of time. Just play your music instead and forget the audio journey..... :)
:) I think that the Mansfields allow that David. I'm afflicted by hifi in a sense in that if it doesn't sound right then the music takes second place to the hifi and that's bad because I would (and have in the past)found myself not listening to music because of the hifi. The re-evaluation is that 1) good hifi doesn't have to cost a fortune and 2) these Mansfields allow realism, scale and life to music that I've rarely heard in the past, so the music does then take precedence.
walpurgis
07-02-2013, 00:28
Glad the Mansfields are working out for you Paul.
The "toppiness" you refer to is to some degree a characteristic of 'pepperpot' Tannoys, you get used to it, as it's not a shrillness as such (I personally suspect it's a resonance across the horn throat where it's almost parallel sided in front of the waveguide exits). That's why sympathetic source and amplification matching are critical to get a decent balance, as I'm sure you know.
I've been using various Tannoys for the best part of forty years and I've got used to their quirks!
The Black Adder
07-02-2013, 01:25
.
The "toppiness" you refer to is to some degree a characteristic of 'pepperpot' Tannoys, you get used to it, as it's not a shrillness as such (I personally suspect it's a resonance across the horn throat where it's almost parallel sided in front of the waveguide exits).
Technically, Geoff, you're probably right, however I've never experienced the "toppiness" you refer to with my 15" MGs.
When I first got them, they sounded tubby and rolled-off, with the original crossovers in place, so the complete opposite from toppy. Then when I fitted the new crossovers, the sound just sprang to life in the most detailed and informative way imaginable (veritable night and day improvement) - again, however, with no "toppiness" in evidence whatsoever.
Maybe, with the copper amp, I just got the amp-matching right from the off? :)
If you're talking about horn coloration (a subtle 'quackiness', through the midrange, with some types of music), I agree, as that's an inherent signature of Tannoy DCs, but that's a rather different thing from "toppiness", which suggests a forwardness and overemphasis of high-frequencies. There is definitely none of that present with my Lockwood Major/15" MGs.
Marco.
If I'd been asked to bet on the refurbished Mansfields versus the Turnburrys I have to say I would have gone with the Mansfields. Looks like I wouldn't have lost my shirt ;)
Whoa there fellas!
Not quite so fast on the draw ;):lol:
I'm used to the lift at 2KHz which is a result of the energy transferred to the horn throat at the crossover point. This isn't like that at all. It's simply that new drivers have been fitted and as part of that, new spider assemblies (suspension) has also been fitted and is still very stiff. You can feel the resistance to movement just tapping the cones, so many hours needed to break these in. Whilst the lower end of the spectrum is affected, the upper is not, so initially, the speakers will sound (unusually for Tannoy) very detailed, almost too "hi-rez" which isn't something one would normally accuse Tannoys of being!
The other effect is that on passages with dynamic swings involving bass, the volume needs turning up more than normal to get the cones to move on their new stiff suspension. When the bass kicks in, it does so on an errrrrr....interesting scale! (nothing, nothing, nothing, BAM!) a little like the engine response on my old Skoda VRS diesel :lol:
After 7 hours or so of playing, it's now starting to settle down and the volume can be lowered slightly. Detail is great...Jerry would even like these :eyebrows: (there's hope for Jerry yet ;)) and the mid range is starting to fill out a little more.
Of course part of this could be the new caps needing to stabilise too.
Whatever...I can see these staying. The wife wants them beautified as she loves the Turnberrys (which are very pretty), so I guess I'll ned to strip the veneer I did, veneer the front baffle with something pretty, and re-veneer the base and sides of the plinth in a matching Timber to contrast with the main cab. A Burr Maple would be a nice contrast but we'll see.
That all makes sense, Paul. Refresh my memory again: which drive units are inside the Mansfields? I've forgotten. Tried scrolling back, but could find the info :)
Marco.
That all makes sense, Paul. Refresh my memory again: which drive units are inside the Mansfields? I've forgotten. Tried scrolling back, but could find the info :)
Marco.
They're 12 inch HPD units Marco but modified with the higher performance voice coils and drivers/surrounds that Lockwood fit, and also fitted with new suspension. I've kept the surrounds as foam rather than the He surrounds which don't apparently sound as good so these will need re-foaming (only) is say 15 years. Think MG chassis and magnets, "new" HPD cones and coils.
Ah, thanks for the clarification, Paul. You've got a kind of 'halfway house' then between Monitor Golds and what's in your Turnberrys :)
Makes you wonder what the new Lockwood Majors would sound like, with 15" HPDs, eh? ;)
See here: http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=797
Marco.
Ah, thanks for the clarification, Paul. You've got a kind of 'halfway house' then between Monitor Golds and what's in your Turnberrys :)
Makes you wonder what the new Lockwood Majors would sound like, with 15" HPDs, eh? ;)
See here: http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=797
Marco.
Yes,
I spoke with Paul who wrote the review and also with Nick as I was going to buy that pair, but they WOULD have been too big for my room. The 12 inch Tannoys in the Mansfield cabs are as big as I need/want to go. Those Lockwoods are/were an insane bargain. You couldn't make a new set for that, I know, I priced up doing just that based on refurbished drivers, new x-overs, and those cabs being professionally built.
A cross between 15 inch MGs and the Turnberrys is probably a good analogy. They have the energy, response and drive of the Turnberrys with the scale of the larger Tannoys. They're also slightly more detailed sounding than the Turnberrys, courtesy of the crossover fitted.
Indeed, and I understand your issues with space.
However, what I was getting at is that you've already heard how the Mansfields smoke the Turnberrys in certain areas (and my guess is that over time you'll love them so much that you'll not be able to do without those particular strengths), so just imagine what the new Majors would do, with those 15" HPDs, at considerably less cost than a pair of new Turnberrys....
I reckon that the new Majors would give even the current Canterbury SEs a hard time - and folk sometimes wonder why I preach the mantra of achieving the highest SPPV...? ;)
Marco.
Agreed.
Compared with any of the new Tannoy range (at RRP), the effort needed to resurrect a vintage pair or to buy something like the Lockwoods is a no brainer. I'd say the issue for many 'philes with cash to spalsh is that the idea of choosing the right pair of drivers, sorting crossovers and cabs is all too much hassle if all they want is to buy a ready made solution and that possibly puts some people off (which is understandable). The rewards are there though. All I would say is that the newer cabinets are a lot prettier and more substantial than a majority of the older ones and this has to figure somewhere when making a decision for a living room.
My wife thinks that the Mansfields are the ugly relation of the Turnberrys and she's right, but I can do something about that with patience, time and veneer!
Paul, any chance of some more info/prices on the new crossovers please? They look superbly done and I hope they perform the way that the HPD's always promised.
Paul, any chance of some more info/prices on the new crossovers please? They look superbly done and I hope they perform the way that the HPD's always promised.
Hi David
yes, no problem.
The crossovers are designed and built by Mark Pitcher and do perform the way intended, just without the treble energy controls. Mark has taken the advice of Dr Paul Mills of Tannoy when developing this design. Mark also tests the crossovers using a signal generator to ensure as flat a response as possible and its these things that have allowed fine tuning to end up with the current design.
I'll supply Mark's email via PM to anyone interested in contacting Mark about the crossovers but more details are below for the ones I have:
"T" series Mk2 Tannoy crossovers with 4 pin connector supplied.
Yellow MKT Polyester Tannoy grade capacitors rated at 250v;
Re-designed Tabnnoy crossovers with some tweaks (approved by Tannoy) applied:
Using a high grade 1.6mm FR4 (high grade flame retardant) printed circuit board, track layout designed with the “star” earthing principle, with 2 separate isolated independent circuits, one for HF, one for LF, but shipped with input links in for common input (easy removable for separate low and high frequency circuits). So can be used for Bi-amp applications. Five black grommets are provided as mounting “spacers”, along with 5 suitable screws.
Based closely on the Tannoy circuits, with a few tweaks. Use as an upgrade over the Tannoy standard crossovers with the switches, or replacement if yours is missing or faulty. Full frequency tested with from 10 to 30kHz.
Supplied with 4 output cables (2 for LF, 2 for HF), 1 metre, so you can shorten if required, with an upgrade 5A nickel plated brass connector block (with nuts and bolts) to fit to the chassis of the speaker, complete with fixing screws, holes line up with existing holes, simply unscrew (if rivets, drill out carefully) the existing Tannoy 4 pin, cut the wires, strip and screw the speaker wires into one side of the terminal block. Then fix the wires from the crossover to the other side of the terminal block. Alternative supply is the 4-pin Tannoy connector (stocks running low!).
Mark trades on Ebay under the name "beterbyvalves" and his crossovers can be bought direct from there too.
They're good and they're not "foo" money. The HPDs sound bang up to date with these and have noticeably better detail than with the older crossovers.
Quick update
Mansfields have about 15 hours on them now and starting to sound a little more fluid as the drivers break in. Detail is very good, although still a little brightly lit and it's the midrange that shines through more than anything. It has a palpable real sense of presence and brings the music alive whatever the genre.
Swapping back to the Turnberrys it's clear that these are two very differently voiced speakers. Turnberrys are warmer and more coloured in the mids and lack the upper sparkle but have real visceral power in the bass, a fraction deeper than the Mansfields and very powerful. Not sure which presentation I prefer but extended listening shows that the Mansfields are more detailed in the upper bass with timbre to the notes making things sound real and up close, whereas the Turnberrys place you further back but blow your socks off with the shear impact they generate. A combination of the two would be my perfect speaker.
Some experiments to follow. I can't find much on the Mansfields except that they were designed for full range monitoring and possibly voiced in an anechoic chamber for flat response (always sounding a bit brighter in the average room). Also, the internal acoustic foam is meant o be 3 inches thick and cover everything except the front baffle which has been designed for a certain amount of give to get the right "Q" for the speaker. I've added long lambswool to the acoustic foam and this should help dampen against standing waves, but it does also present an apparent increase in cabinet volume to the driver if over-padded which could reduce bass output.
Also, the bass might be enhanced a little by moving tight to a rear wall, so I'll muck about with them and see what changes are brought. They're good and I'm sure can be made better.
Ah, are we meeting slightly more? :) The Turnberry's I heard were gentle up top as set at t'factory and were slightly more coloured than "the other" speakers we've discussed before :lol:
I bet these "new old" Tannoys of yours are really lovely and they'll certainly be stable enough with rug-rats charging around...
Now, what are you going to do with the Turnberry's? Could be a bargain coming on for someone?????????
Ah, are we meeting slightly more? :) The Turnberry's I heard were gentle up top as set at t'factory and were slightly more coloured than "the other" speakers we've discussed before :lol:
I bet these "new old" Tannoys of yours are really lovely and they'll certainly be stable enough with rug-rats charging around...
Now, what are you going to do with the Turnberry's? Could be a bargain coming on for someone?????????
They both have plenty of detail David, but the Turnberrys require more careful set up and are more fussy about amplification. What amp you use has a huge bearing on the sound you get from them which is why they can never be judged on the basis of a single audition at a dealership on one particular amp. They are very balanced sounding with powerful P-P valve amps, not so nice with SS amps (the 2KHz lift seems to be exacerbated by some amps quite dramatically). The only SS amp I liked them with was the Perreaux Audiant 80i. Very good match indeed. Yes, they have some mid range colouration but all loudspeakers are coloured in some way. What they do superbly well is LF grunt and scale and I quite like a slightly warm of neutral mid which is how the Turnberrys are voiced. Not perfect at all, but great with some amps.
By contrast, the Mansfields offer less bass slam, less visceral impact (which is a shame) but are way more neutral across the spectrum as they have been voiced as studio monitors. Deep bass is there but with no lift, as there isn't any porting to boost LF SPLs. What you get is fast, articulate and with great tone. Mid range has a walk-through loveliness about it...hardly any discernible colouration and treble is very very detailed. No need whatsoever for a supertweeter. It's the very first pair of Tannoys which I've heard be so balanced and neutral and some of that has to be down to the excellence of Mark Pitcher's crossover design. As speaker compromises go (and remember this is me talking, and my perfectionist nature tends to make me very fussy) then the Mansfields are pretty darned good. There's a lot to like.
The "however" is that I happen to like visceral bass with real power when called for and the Turnberrys are great in this respect. Haven't decided yet which stay and which go. It's too close to call....chalk and cheese though. I have an opportunity soon to try a Croft pre/VACPA60 Monoblock powers with both speakers and that should (from all amps I've experimented to date) promise to be an ideal match for both, so I can do some in depth comparisons then. The big Luxman and Mansfields work great together. The Luxman and Turnberrys are a less successful pairing.
I thought that Paul and other Tannoy DC fans might be interested in this article:
http://www.allegrosound.com/Tannoy_Dual-Concentric.pdf
Enjoy! :)
Marco.
walpurgis
18-02-2013, 23:40
I thought that Paul and other Tannoy DC fans might be interested in this article:
http://www.allegrosound.com/Tannoy_Dual-Concentric.pdf
Enjoy! :)
Marco.
Yes, interesting, even though I am familiar with the design details.
Of some worth I'd think to those who have not owned Tannoys and are not aware of the more or less unique design.
Some elaboration on the 'pepperpot' types as well as the 'tulip waveguide' designs would have been useful, as they are still in production.
That's a very interesting article although interestingly it doesn't mention some of the drawbacks of the Tulip Waveguide system such as introducing slightly raised distortion between 1KHz and 2KHz and the importance of tuning crossovers to various enclosure designs. I must admit I prefer the pepper-pot design of the earlier models and the more expensive prestige DCs but like the Turnberry for the excellent cabinet design, room friendly size and build.
Still deciding between the Turnberry or the Mansfield and it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other at the minute...but I think that the vintage Tannoys just may have it!
Decision made:
have decided that the Mansfield's will stay....sort of! The HPD units will stay as will the crossovers. I am designing a 150 litre enclosure (ported) which will make the most of the 315HPDs. This will be built in 25mm Birch Ply and veneered in European Oak. Shape wise, it won't be a box. Front baffle board will be 450mm wide and in plan, the sides will come in to 200mm deep before being angled at 45 degrees inwards to a total cabinet depth of 350mm. They will stand around 1.1m high. Port will be a 4 inch port, 6 inches deep located in the lower half of the cabinet to one side.
This shape will ensure a very rigid construction and the volume and porting will be designed for a 30Hz in room response before roll-off. This will take some weeks to complete but I hope to make a start within the next week or two and will document progress. It is aimed at matching the performance of something like the Prestige Kensington for a lot less money. Funds to manufacture will come from the sale of the Turnberrys. I estimate timber and veneer costs to be about £600. I will be receiving assistance in the shape of a computer modelling suit for the cab design... I want to make the "perfect" 315 loudspeaker. Exciting times!
Have modelled current enclosure V's proposed enclosures:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Tannoy_zpsd67c82b3.jpg
The yellow line represents the Mansfield cabinets (and is an imporvement on the Lancaster cabs response).
Bottom green line represents a 150 litre vented enclosure.
Top green line represents a 140 litre vented enclosure.
I've modelled other volumes and vent arrangements but going larger with the 315HPD leads to a hump at 35 Hz which would induce boomy response. Going lower to 100 litres with a vented cabinet betters the current sealed enclosure and gives a nice smooth response but the best response seems to be for 140 litres where the port is tuned for 30Hz at -6dB.
I'll have some further attempts at optimising the enclosure size and design, but so far, 140 litre vented cabinet has it.
walpurgis
21-02-2013, 19:54
Just thinking laterally, but there is a easy option that should give results rather similar to the sound you have from the Mansfields and that is to mount a pair of HPD 295A drivers in the Turnbury cabinets, it has been done before successfully. I personally found the sound quality of the 295A superior to the 315, I've owned both and still have a pair of HPD 295A Eatons. The 10" driver still packs a punch and has a lovely mid and top.
Just thinking laterally, but there is a easy option that should give results rather similar to the sound you have from the Mansfields and that is to mount a pair of HPD 295A drivers in the Turnbury cabinets, it has been done before successfully. I personally found the sound quality of the 295A superior to the 315, I've owned both and still have a pair of HPD 295A Eatons. The 10" driver still packs a punch and has a lovely mid and top.
That's not a bad idea at all, but I have a perfectly decent set of 315's now and all they really seem to need is a few crossover tweaks to drop HF response slightly (between 3 and 10KHz) and some more beef low down (cabinet issues) and job's a good 'un.
Several ways of doing it:
1. Easy way: drill a vent hole into the lower half of each cabinet to take a 100mm diameter, 150mm long port (modelled, this results in MUCH improved bass response);
2. Build new cabs to 150 litre dimensions and make them ported;
3. Do as you suggest and keep the Mansfield cabs.
I've lived with the Turnberrys and Mansfields for a little while now and the Turnberrys knock the older speakers into a cocked hat for looks and for bass response. The HPDs though have a lovely mid range and are way more detailed and I'm willing to sacrifice a little bass for that. However, they are ugly :doh:
I have always fancied building my own loudspeakers, and this as a great opportunity to take the HPDs and fit them into something as lovely as the Turnberry cabs. I have two designs roughed out now and will decide on which one gets the green light tomorrow after a little practical research into how to build each! They won't be conventional boxes and both designs I reckon will look stunning. I can also play with the HPD crossovers and tweak them a little to optimise the HF response.
That's the plan. I know I have a great set of HPDs so plan to use them. The Mansfield cabs will be sold to whoever would like them. They are great cabs for sealed boxes and way better IMHO than the Lancasters (better bass response and more solid too) but I know that I can squeeze more LF performance from the HPDs so that's what I aim to do, all wrapped up in something which will suit the room.
walpurgis
21-02-2013, 23:16
As a total aside, I just took my Cheviots out of the system and hooked up my Eatons. I haven't used them seriously for a year or so.
Wow, I'd forgotten what these can do! They have the same pepperpot tweeter as the 12" Monitor Gold and it shows, so transparent and clean through the mid. Lovely. I suppose while I'm at it, I should give the System 800s a whirl too, they are also superb.
I'll probably have to make some space and sell a pair soon, but which ones? They are each great in their own way, I'm very torn as to how to make the choice.
southall-1998
21-02-2013, 23:26
As a total aside, I just took my Cheviots out of the system and hooked up my Eatons. I haven't used them seriously for a year or so.
Wow, I'd forgotten what these can do! They have the same pepperpot tweeter as the 12" Monitor Gold and it shows, so transparent and clean through the mid. Lovely. I suppose while I'm at it, I should give the System 800s a whirl too, they are also superb.
I'll probably have to make some space and sell a pair soon, but which ones? They are each great in their own way, I'm very torn as to how to make the choice.
I'll take the System 800s if you decide to flog them in a few months :D
walpurgis
21-02-2013, 23:45
I had a feeling you might say something Shane.
I suspect it may be the Eatons to go, sadly, as they sound quite similar to the Cheviots. The System 800s have a sound of their own.
Not making a decision yet, as I'm very fond of them all.
(how are the Magisters going by the way?)
southall-1998
21-02-2013, 23:48
I had a feeling you might say something Shane.
I suspect it may be the Eatons to go, sadly, as they sound quite similar to the Cheviots. The System 800s have a sound of their own.
Not making a decision yet, as I'm very fond of them all.
(how are the Magisters going by the way?)
To be honest I'm not using them. Because my room is no good for them!
Shame your thinking of letting the Eatons go!
Have picked the veneers for the new cabinets. Main cabs will be veneered in this:
http://www.veneerselector.com/veneers/images/hi-res/SPA193.jpg
At the front the edges of the cabinets will be in structural solid timber rebated to accept the 25mm sides and front baffle board, the edges of the timber being rounded for the best baffle performance and to make the front aesthetically pleasing. Timber will be a 1100mm long 80mm by 80mm section of solid European Walnut:
http://www.veneerselector.com/veneers/images/hi-res/SPA200.jpg
The contrast between the two is lovely and the Sycamore Cluster brings a very contemporary and fresh look to the speaker enclosures.
Watch this space...mock up of speaker cabinet options coming soon!
Rare Bird
22-02-2013, 12:03
Im not a fan of Burr woods they are too blingy for me but should match ok.. The only Burr i really like is Oak or Elm Burr
The Sycamore Cluster is not as dense a pattern as most burrs. Its way more subtle and looks lovely in the flesh. It has a very slight yellowish tinge and conrasts beautifully with the Walnut,
I tried mixing and matching several timbers and looked at Maple, Oak, American Black Walnut, European Walnut, Crown cut Sepele, Red Cheery, Zebrano and many more, but the Cluster Sycamore and Walnut was by far the nicest combination for my own personal tastes. Sycamore is a much under-used timber!
The Grand Wazoo
22-02-2013, 19:52
Well, it's usually described as maple, which may lead to that impression but it's not really underused.
I've sold a lot of Sycamore timber in the past (sawlogs and veneer butts) and most of the good quality sticks go to the Continent. There's a big demand for good quality ripple Sycamore in Germany for musical instruments, especially violins & cellos. The slightly lower quality wood goes to make furniture and industrial rollers.
Well, Sycamore whilst part of the Maple family(of which there are many varieties) is used in this context to describe native Sycamore from the UK. This is UK sourced Burr Sycamore veneer and lovely timber at that. Looking forward to seeing the finished article but a heck of a long way to go! Spent part of the day designing the baffle board and jointing (made from 3 different types of timber) including working out the grille design and fitment and how the baffle edges would be finished.
The lining of the interior of the cabinets will consist of carpet underlay glued to the inside over which I'll place 3 inches of long lambswool.
The Grand Wazoo
23-02-2013, 00:06
I think they will look great and I've always thought Syc would make a good speaker veneer because it is very hard and, therefore, stiff.
I really don't want to fence with you over silvicultural terminology, but Sycamore isn't native to the UK, although it is considered to have become naturalised. Your veneers may well have been grown in the UK, but they are not native.
Technically correct, so perhaps to keep everyone happy ( ;) ) I'll refer to it as naturalised to the UK. "Acer pseudoplatanus", or "Great Maple" originated in Europe and isn't related to other Sycamores found elsewhere in the world (except perhaps to some of the Great Maples in Aisia). It is very commonly widespread in the UK (as it has been for many hundreds of years).
In fact, although thought to have been introduced by the Romans, It hasn't been widespread here up until several hundred years ago, perhaps a little earlier but whatever it's ancestry it shouldn't be compared with other species sharing the same name found outside of Europe as it is a different tree.
I agree with you though, it's very suited to speaker cabinetry. Durable and attractive, especially when contrasted with darker timbers. I rarely see it used in speaker cabinetry although Bird's Eye Maple is used by many manufacturers. I believe that is most commonly found in Sugar Maple and some Red Maples. The veneer I'm using is not a birds eye Maple though.
Wow..this seems to have turned into a timber blog!
jandl100
23-02-2013, 08:16
.... Shape wise, it won't be a box. Front baffle board will be 450mm wide and in plan, the sides will come in to 200mm deep before being angled at 45 degrees inwards to a total cabinet depth of 350mm. They will stand around 1.1m high. Port will be a 4 inch port, 6 inches deep located in the lower half of the cabinet to one side.
Well, I don't think Tannoys will ever be my thing, but I thought I'd come in here with a maybe-relevant recollection ...
A few Scalford Shows ago I seem to recall Simon sq12344etc sharing a dem room with a guy who had pair of speakers - Tannoy drivers in a tall enclosure (1.5m-ish?) shaped kind of like you describe, Paul. Quite probably the best Tannoy-based design I have heard.
Maybe worth dropping Simon a line to see if he knows owt about it or can give you a contact?
Well, I don't think Tannoys will ever be my thing, but I thought I'd come in here with a maybe-relevant recollection ...
A few Scalford Shows ago I seem to recall Simon sq12344etc sharing a dem room with a guy who had pair of speakers - Tannoy drivers in a tall enclosure (1.5m-ish?) shaped kind of like you describe, Paul. Quite probably the best Tannoy-based design I have heard.
Maybe worth dropping Simon a line to see if he knows owt about it or can give you a contact?
Thanks Jerry. Perhaps worth a look. I've designed the cabinets to extract the best performance from the 315's, at least on paper/computer! I have made a few changes since I started, as further modelling and speaking with a friend who will be helping me with the build (he has a great deal of cabinetry experience) has refined the design. We will either experiment with a home brewed vacuum forming machine to form curved ply sheets to be laminated for side panels, or I'll make the shape more a conventional box but use internal sloping baffle boards to prevent standing waves formation. Either way, the front baffle board design has been extended slightly to 550mm to reduce baffle-step losses.
Don't know if this is better here or the DIY section but as I've started, I'll continue!
I've now completed the design for the speaker cabinets and had a mad panic when after placing the timber and materials on order, realised I'd mis calculated for the volume taken up by the acoustically non-transparent 12mm wool felt in each enclosure (ie decimal point in the wrong place!) so 2 litres was in fact 20 litres!
Result is that each cabinet has had to grow to 180 litres in volume...not too far off the Lockwood volume! Couldn't source the cluster Sycamore but managed to get some of this instead:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/RippleSycamore_zps1cf9725b.jpg
10 large sheets of Grade A quality Ripple Sycamore on order instead!
I've tweaked the design to now use two 100mm diameter ports to generate a smoother response in-room (in theory) tuned to 34Hz (just a few dB down at this which should be interesting!).
Each cabinet is growing and will measure 1.28m tall weighing in at over 75kg each (without drivers). After some trial work at the workshop with the guy who's helping with the build (it's a two man job for various reasons) we've perfected a DIY jig to bend 6mm panels and laminate them in twos to form a single 12mm thick curved panel...two each of these then glued and clamped forming a 24mm cruved panel side. The end result in plan view will resemble a large kettle drum on it's side!
Sourced some very bling bell-mouthed ports of exactly the right size from Germany and they're now winging their way to me along with 3.5m2 of acoustic foam, 3.5m2 12mm dense wool felt, the same amount in 2mm mastic sheeting and a box of long lambswool. The cabinet fillings have cost an arm and a leg but I want this to be a no-holds barred high quality speaker build.
Some CAD mock ups of the speakers to follow so watch this space!
Don't know if this is better here or the DIY section but as I've started, I'll continue!
I've now completed the design for the speaker cabinets and had a mad panic when after placing the timber and materials on order, realised I'd mis calculated for the volume taken up by the acoustically non-transparent 12mm wool felt in each enclosure (ie decimal point in the wrong place!) so 2 litres was in fact 20 litres!
Result is that each cabinet has had to grow to 180 litres in volume...not too far off the Lockwood volume! Couldn't source the cluster Sycamore but managed to get some of this instead:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/RippleSycamore_zps1cf9725b.jpg
10 large sheets of Grade A quality Ripple Sycamore on order instead!
I've tweaked the design to now use two 100mm diameter ports to generate a smoother response in-room (in theory) tuned to 34Hz (just a few dB down at this which should be interesting!).
Each cabinet is growing and will measure 1.28m tall weighing in at over 75kg each (without drivers). After some trial work at the workshop with the guy who's helping with the build (it's a two man job for various reasons) we've perfected a DIY jig to bend 6mm panels and laminate them in twos to form a single 12mm thick curved panel...two each of these then glued and clamped forming a 24mm cruved panel side. The end result in plan view will resemble a large kettle drum on it's side!
Sourced some very bling bell-mouthed ports of exactly the right size from Germany and they're now winging their way to me along with 3.5m2 of acoustic foam, 3.5m2 12mm dense wool felt, the same amount in 2mm mastic sheeting and a box of long lambswool. The cabinet fillings have cost an arm and a leg but I want this to be a no-holds barred high quality speaker build.
Some CAD mock ups of the speakers to follow so watch this space!
All sounds very exciting, looking forward to the final result :)
CAD mock up's completed. First one shows the bare cab cut for driver and ports:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/Speakercabs4_zps2ee5a572.jpg
There'll be some sneaky design such as burying small neodymium magnets set into the ply front baffle underneath the veneer, with corresponting magnetic strips set into the grill beneath the cloth so that the front lines of he woodwork will remain unspoilt with the covers removed. With the full length cover on, the cabinet will look like this:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/Speakercabs3_zps2bd96a43.jpg
Not unlike my older Horning Agathon Ultimates in front profile except larger! A shade under 1.3m tall but with rounded side panels.
montesquieu
28-02-2013, 11:40
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/Speakercabs3_zps2bd96a43.jpg
Not unlike my older Horning Agathon Ultimates in front profile except larger! A shade under 1.3m tall but with rounded side panels.
Looks gorgeous Paul.
Does it come in 15in? :idea:
Looks gorgeous Paul.
Does it come in 15in? :idea:
It can certainly be arranged Tom. A 15 inch driver would add 50mm all round on the dimensions (gross volume of 230 litres). No shrinking violets!
montesquieu
28-02-2013, 12:14
It can certainly be arranged Tom. A 15 inch driver would add 50mm all round on the dimensions (gross volume of 230 litres). No shrinking violets!
Tannoy seem to have gone to long slotted ports rather than the round tube approach which in some setups can be a bit 'obvious' (chuffing and wheezing). Any rationale for going either way? Is there method in calculating the opening size and placement?
Tannoy seem to have gone to long slotted ports rather than the round tube approach which in some setups can be a bit 'obvious' (chuffing and wheezing). Any rationale for going either way? Is there method in calculating the opening size and placement?
The reason they've done that I think is largely cosmetic Tom, but I did find hat the crudely cut port (no shaped entrance etc) being narrow was a little wheezy and could make the bass a little slow sounding.
I've used a standard Helmholtz model to check the ports and have gone with an arrangement similar to that recommended by Alex Garner of Tannoy: Two 100 diameter ports 200mm long. I've placed these fairly high in the cab as that helps with bass speed (apparently) although I'm unsure of how it affects the mid-point standing wave (or vice-versa)which tries to form in tall cabs (max amplitude at the mid point) but have designed a lot of wadding around a central chamber at this point to negate that effect. I've also used WinISD to check and that model came out with a similar result (suggesting 3mm longer ports, but what is 3mm between friends?:lol:)
walpurgis
28-02-2013, 20:37
Your cabs look rather long. Will they be baffled to break up standing waves along the major dimension?
Your cabs look rather long. Will they be baffled to break up standing waves along the major dimension?
The length isn't an issue on its own, as the formation and control of standing waves is a little more complex than just analysing the length. The internal length is 1.16m, reduced to an effective length of 1.13m due to internal acoustically non-transparent damping and wadding. In the middle, there will be additional wadding to help damp down the amplitude of any waves forming along the length although there will be holes or gaps to allow the lower ports to be driven properly. The internal dimensions have all been selected so that there are no equal multiples with respect to each other (this is very important) and the side panels curved to reduce internal reflections in that plane. There are also internal ribs which protrude 50mm into the cabinet asymmetrically spaced and these have internal cross bracing which also helps break up standing waves. In theory, they should be very well damped and controlled in this respect.
Veneer's here...all 10 sheets!
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Fiddleback-Ripple-Figured-Sycamore-Wood-Veneer-Large-Sheet-Guitars-Drums-etc-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/KzIAAMXQZdFRHNZu/$(KGrHqJ,!jIFEFLq!1L0BRHNZuKj,w~~60_12.JPG
Bellmouth ports :carrot:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SPEAKER-CABINET-BASS-REFLEX-TUBE-VENT-SILVER-100X200MM-/00/s/MzA4WDM1MA==/$(KGrHqJ,!qIFCCyVMYTmBQpVKFdUPw~~60_12.JPG
Slow progress, as too many other things to do! Still, managed to get all materials now and totalling up the cost needed some smelling salts and sweet tea to bring me round!
Covered the ports in the same 12mm dense wool felt that will be applied to the inside of the speakers:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6361_zps8206dde7.jpg
I've also modified the front baffle board design in an attempt to bring down the resonant frequency of the panel, and introduced an extra coupling brace. The baffle is now 25mm Birch ply with an inside panel of 6mm MDF glued to it and 2mm Bitumen sheeting applied to the MDF internal face plus 12mm dense wool felt. I'm taking no prisoners. These panels will be as acoustically dead as I can get them!
Hi Paul
Have you considered Deflex Panels rather than all that wadding - I had good results with them years ago - they kill the box reverb without deadening the sound.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/acoustic-damping/dampers-deflex-standard-panel/
Hi Paul
Have you considered Deflex Panels rather than all that wadding - I had good results with them years ago - they kill the box reverb without deadening the sound.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/acoustic-damping/dampers-deflex-standard-panel/
I have Martin, but at £17 each (280 by 210mm) I would need 50 of them so way too expensive! What I have designed is tried, tested and cheaper. Bitumen sheeting helps damp resonance and also helps to pull resonant frequency down below the critical mid range. 12mm dense wool felt helps with acoustic damping, the foam panels help with absorption of mid frequency to high frequency reflections and the long lambswool helps with attenuation of LF. You want the cabinets to be as dead as possible resonance wise and internally very well damped so that there are no reflections colouring the information coming from the front of the driver. You can over do damping, but not as you may think. Add too much and the driver sees a virtual volume greater than the actual volume so that you can reduce SPL in bass output, but I'm with the school of thought that there's frequently not enough internal damping in loudspeaker boxes.
I have Martin, but at £17 each (280 by 210mm) I would need 50 of them so way too expensive! I'm with the school of thought that there's frequently not enough internal damping in loudspeaker boxes.
Fifty! You don't need to coat the whole interior with them! I guess we differ about damping - I think most speakers have too much. I alwyas used 3 quarter inch chipboard all round for cabs so pretty dead sounding anyway.
There's various schools of thought but I want the panels to be as acoustically dead as possible and the construction is designed to be very dense and very stiff. I much prefer Birch Ply for cabinets to the chip board, but most timbers can be made to work with adequate bracing. I'll be using three internal cruciform braces. I know that the design works because there's been very similar and very successful designs carried out in the past using similar design/technique to that I'm using. Chipboard just doesn't have enough panel stiffness for my liking.
walpurgis
10-03-2013, 13:16
Your system damping ideas make sense to me Paul. It's good to hear somebody describing accurately what the various types of materials are useful for and how to use them. So many people cock that up.
Thanks Geoff. I must admit, I've seen (heard?) many more under damped cabinets than over damped! Most problems seem to revolve around inadequate front baffle mass/stiffness. You need both high mass and stiffness to lower resonant panel frequency AND to limit panel excursion to minimise distortion. It always puzzles me to hear comments about over damping the inside, when it does require at least 70mm depth acoustic foam and wool all the way round, with twice that behind the driver!
walpurgis
10-03-2013, 18:57
Well I'm a firm believer in bracing everything I can sensibly do inside a cabinet, as well as the damping of course and I too like the front baffle to be as substantial as possible. I often brace the main driver to the rear panel as well.
Some more progress. Came out of hospital this morning and told to rest, so naturally my time has since been spent in the workshop where the speaker side panels were busy "cooking" in the DIY laminating machine. This consists of a table top with a hinged alloy frame and inlets for vacuum pipes connected to an electrical motor and vacuum pump. It generates 14lbs/sqr inch pressure on whatever former is placed into it (there's a tough plastic cover attached to the hinged frame which pulls down over the former). Once the motor's started, the plastic pulls down evenly across whatever piece of work you want to put in there, and holds it for gluing/forming for as long as needed. Each of these panels was in for around 4 to 6 hours:
Machine in action with one of my speaker side panels being formed from 6nr 4mm Birch ply sheets glued with PVA:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6366_zps85d822aa.jpg
Vacuum pump turned off and former lid removed:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6371_zps817ec489.jpg
One of the panel edges had rippled slightly but not as bad as it looks since the panel width is oversized to allow for this edge rippling which can sometimes occur. It'll be trimmed up and will be fine:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6363_zpsd42937be.jpg
One of the laminated panels at rest for a day or so after gluing up to allow for any further movement before final trimming:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6373_zps4b797c81.jpg
Each of these sides weighs approximately 15kg! You can imagine what each speaker will weigh with two of these, the front and rear panels (front panel is 30mm thick!), bracing, damping and drivers. It will be a two man lift per speaker for sure.
A little more progress in between jobs...these are now taking shape!
First dry mock-up of first speaker cabinet today. Due to very slight deviations (a few mm) along the length of the curved side panels, making a template and using the same uniform shaped ribs didn't work, so each rib has had to be custom tweaked by a few millimetres to ensure an exact fit. the square panels and uprights are not part of the build; they're just there to aid stability of the mock up. This is just the beginning and there's loads of work left to do, but at least you can start to get a feeling for the height. These are about 4 feet tall:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_9621_zpsbaf6f442.jpg
Close up of one of the ribs:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_9623_zpse0832513.jpg
More to come next week.
walpurgis
14-03-2013, 20:19
Cor! You don't hang about do you.
It's getting more interesting by the day.
(just seen a really nice looking pair of Mansfield cabinets on eBay by the way)
Cor! You don't hang about do you.
It's getting more interesting by the day.
(just seen a really nice looking pair of Mansfield cabinets on eBay by the way)
:lol: Yes, they are my Mansfields. Someone bought them and asked for a cancellation because he thought it was for the speakers including drivers despite the block capitals stating it was for cabs only. He has not offered to pay my re-listing fees either, despite being invited to. Some people...Grrrrrrrrrrrr.
The speakers under construction still have I guess around 2 to 3 weeks left before they're finished. Once the panels are all cut, formed and tweaked for fit, they have to be veneered before final construction as they wont fit in the the vacuum former used for pressing the veneer whilst gluuing unless in individual panels. The veneer has first to be trimmed and bookend matched. The veneer is pretty stunning in the flesh.
walpurgis
14-03-2013, 23:08
Yes, I too have come across the occasional eBay genius. It happens.
I don't know what type of adhesive you plan using for the veneer on the bendy bits, but I've built large cabinets with expensive veneer onto curved surfaces and found using a good contact adhesive (Thixofix) on both surfaces and allowed to go only just tacky dry was best for me.
Obviously great accuracy is needed to get the veneer lined up before the glued faces come into contact and 'grab', as you only get one chance.
The trick is to first lightly press the veneer down, then rub firmly along the grain with a softwood block, working from the centre of the panel outwards. This gets the veneer tightly down onto the panel with no lifted areas. I'd suggest a couple of trial pieces if you adopt this method.
Should any bubbles or lifted areas become apparent, they can be persuaded to stick down with a hot iron as long as they have had a proper adhesive coating originally.
I've had beautiful results.
I'll be using PVA in all probability Geoff. The veneer is too expensive to risk mucking it up so the veneering will be done in the same way as the curved panels were formed. The PVA will be evenly applied to the plywood face, the veneer placed on and rubbed down from the centre outwards, then placed inside the vacuum former and left for at least 4 hours to set before removal. The PVA is more than strong enough and this method allows complete confidence that sufficient even pressure is applied to prevent bubbling up of the veneer. It's very time consuming as only one panel can be done at a time but hopefully by this time next week, there'll have been enough time to book match and glue the first few veneers. I'll post some photos when done.
Side panels now veneered using the vacuum former and work started tidying the panels up ready for the first lacquer coat. Photos to come. Veneer looks great and really suits the profile.
Have had a think about the internal damping and reckon I can get away with slightly less except for behind the drive unit, by introducing some "V" deflector panels. The volume lost will be balanced by the volume gained omitting the wool felt to the side panels so I plan for two Vee deflectors: one in the base, to reduce unwanted standing waves along the length of the cabinets, and one set of two (ie "W" deflectors) on the rear panel behind the drive unit. The chamber containing the drive unit will be fully lagged and damped using bitumen, wool felt, acoustic foam and long lambswool. The front and rear baffle panels will also have wool felt applied to deaden them but I'll now omit this felt from the side panels as I don't want to risk over damping the panels.
walpurgis
22-03-2013, 20:10
There was some talk years ago about damping materials causing the speaker to 'see' a larger cabinet volume than it does without them. How factual this is I don't know, but it may be of interest.
There was some talk years ago about damping materials causing the speaker to 'see' a larger cabinet volume than it does without them. How factual this is I don't know, but it may be of interest.
Its perfectly true Geoff. When you stuff something like long lambswool onto a speaker enclosure, the path travelled by the backwave from the speaker driver is increased, fooling the speaker into thinking it's in a larger cabinet than it is. You can increase apparent volume by up to 25% by stuffing the whole enclosure. Whilst this is usually a good thing for sealed cabinets (the larger the cabinet the smoother the response and the less rolled off the bass) it isn't a good thing for ported cabinets. This is because you have tuned the ports to a specific frequency and the act of increasing apparent volume will lower the resonant frequency of the tuned enclosure. "great" I hear you say, but not necessarily so.
Every driver has what is called a "free air resonance" which is it's natural harmonic resonant frequency when unloaded (ie free air or dipole conditions). If the cabinet tuning falls on or very close to this frequency then all sorts of horrible LF distortion is the result. Its important to also realise that a manufacturer's stated FAR for a loudspeaker driver is often not the same as that measured! Some Tannoy MG 12 inch drivers I know have a FAR of approximately 50Hz which is way above the stated FAR, so its important that cabinets for MGs are not tuned or resonate at 50Hz or close to that figure.
I'll bet you're sorry you asked now!
Tuning a reflex cabinet should be done as precisely as possible and the cabinet should not be over damped. The only area which you can really go to town on the damping is behind the driver to prevent unwanted reflections straight back through the driver. Everywhere else should just get the minimum needed to absorb HF reflections and mid frequency reflections. A few inches of acoustic foam or a single 35mm layer of baff/wool elsewhere is fine.
Because mine are long cabinets, I have to be concerned with half and quarter wavelengths at LF's and work out where the nodes and anti-nodes form. To reduce the possibility of these forming I have added the sloped or "Vee" panels to the design (all will become clear when the photos are posted) and also introduced damping at the critical areas such as around the ports barrels themselves and in the centre of the chamber.
Closed infinite baffle boxes are far easier to design for, especially if large. Predicting what happens with smaller boxes is more tricky and these do by and large need to be much more solid and heavily damped than large cabinets.
Beware any floor-stander that feels light. Probably an indication of being under-braced and under damped using thin panels. Particular attention needs to be paid to the front baffle which should be as acoustically dead as possible (very heavy and well damped).
walpurgis
23-03-2013, 13:51
You've been browsing your textbooks again Paul.
No, I'm not sorry I asked. It's nice to see that somebody else has a good grasp of speakers. They're my favourite Hi-Fi subject.
Having built around fifty speaker systems in the past I have actually learned a lot. I'm aware that to have port resonances tuned close to that of a main driver can create problems. That applies to all vented systems, not just reflex (Hemholtz) types. You can end up with a huge bass hump, cancellation and all sorts of dodgy harmonic effects.
I personally like transmission line or acoustic column (which are not quite the same thing) speakers and have built several. Horn speakers are nice, but I don't like the immediate 'backloading' Lowther tend to use as it creates all sorts of colourations due to the too close proximity of reflective surfaces. A big flare/horn coupled reflex or quarter wave horn can sound great though.
The original 12" Tannoy Monitor Gold, with the pleated paper cone surround was basically a Monitor Red with higher power handling and at one time had a quoted free air resonance of 23 Hz. which I never believed, nearer 40Hz. I'd guess. The next version with the rubber roll surround had a lower resonance and may well have been around 30Hz. The last 12" gold had the unfortunate 'Tanoplas' foam surround which was slightly more pliant and might well have produced a resonance getting down into the twenties. Although I've owned these, I never bothered to measure their characteristics.
The quoted resonance for the little IIILZ was the biggest porky, Tannoy claimed 30Hz, but my guess would be getting on for twice that. You just could not get proper deep bass out of them. I've used these in pretty big cabinets and their limitations were obvious.
Yes, I have a soft spot for 1/4 wave loaded speakers. Castle made quite a few along these lines and I owned three pairs (Chesters and few pairs of Howards) and the Howard S2's were amongst my all time favourite loudspeakers although the treble could be a little coarse.
Tannoy claim 26Hz for the HPD and a similar figure for the MG which simply cannot be true. The HPD was engineered for more (and lower) bass so I can't and don't believe that the later MGs achieve the same power handling or bass response (they don't). The problem with HPDs is that unless the cabinet is optimised to make the best of that response, they can sound toppy and require some increase in the HF series resistor, and really benefit from a notch filter at the crossover point. (in fact ALL Tannoys benefit from a notch filter to cure the impedance characteristics at the crossover point to tame the honk!). Once you have the HPDs in proper cabinets, they start to make far more sense as the balance is restored. You simply cannot achieve this in undersized cabinets with them, without getting a very peaky bass response. 150 litres or more for a vented enclosure is needed. Anywhere between 150 and 170 litres is fine. If you make the cabinets any bigger, the bass starts to roll off and if you tune for a lower resonant frequency, you cross over the drivers own FAR, which ruins the performance. It's no accident that Alex Garner chose 150 litres as the optimum for the HPD 12 inch drivers (and it's also pretty much the optimum for 12 inch MGs, although their response stays a little smoother down to say 130 litres, so they can be used to good effect in smaller enclosures but wont have the bass of the HPDs).
The other thing to remember when DIY-ing loudspeaker cabinets is that baffle width and shape matters! if the front baffle is too narrow, then the frequency at which baffle step loss occurs is higher than for a wider baffle. The can be easily calculated but the important thing is to remember that when radiating into full space as opposed to half space a 6dB loss occurs at the transition frequency from half to full space. Most crossovers for commercial speakers are designed to compensate for the "apparent" rise in frequencies occurring at twice the width of the baffle (so for a baffle of 600mm wide, maximum amplitude occurs at 1.1kHz which also happens to be close to the crossover point of many Tannoy crossovers).
This last point does mean that crossovers may need to be tweaked to account for the amplitude rise. It's also another reason why the same Tannoy drivers and crossovers can sound much brighter in some cabinets than in others. There's a hell of a lot to take in when considering cabinet and crossover design!
Finally had a chance to cobble together an update. Not a great deal of progress as it's been really time consuming getting all the laminations done then doing the veneering and shaping each individual brace for an exact fit.
Anyway, some photos:
Cabinets look enormous sat on these 3 inch trolley plinths! Just the right size for a 100 BHP Mercury outboard motor on the back of each!
Base and top panels cut, joints formed and glued to veneered side panels:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6429_zpse18bf4e4.jpg
Side view of one of the veneered side panels. Its only up to a 20 or 30 sheen, so the grain will come out more with some more finishing work. That won't happen until I have the interiors fitted out and the front and back panels are completed. Still, I like the ripple Birch. Very contemporary and light and I reckon it'll be a nice contrast with the Black Walnut front edges:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6430_zps897524cf.jpg
Close up on one of the panels. The veneers have been cut and matched as well as possible before going into the vacuum press for gluing:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6431_zps4e739b12.jpg
Front view...braces removed for the moment whilst top an bottom panels are glued:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6432_zpsb1199de9.jpg
Side view:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6435_zps9a8675a5.jpg
Detail of top panel joint:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6438_zpsb3d61153.jpg
Front of cabinet. 30mm deep baffle panel will be glued into this recess formed by the sloped face and the straight (internal) face beyon the step you can just about make out behind the strapping. A really awkward cut to make:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6439_zps494d03ea.jpg
Rear view:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6443_zpsa8e677a0.jpg
The cabs will sit there until the glue has set and hardened so 24 to 48 hours before they're touched. Next job will be to fit the rear panel after first forming a cut-out in the lower panel for the removable section housing the crossover and binding posts. On the base internally there'll be a sloped internal baffle cut to shape from 24mm ply and the void between it and the cabinet base packed with wool felt. The slope is being put in to ensure that the internal base is not parallel to the top panel to help avoid standing waves. Won't have that issue with the curved sides!
It'll be a week to 10 days before I update with more photos and should be close to completion by then.
Just the right size for a 100 BHP Mercury outboard motor on the back of each!
:lol:
Top work though Paul - I really admire people who can do this sort of job to a decent standard - apart from the time issue, I just know I'd cock it up somehow. Look forward to seeing the next instalment but they look very professional so far. :thumbsup:
Thanks Alex. I am getting help with them as parts of the construction are much easier as a two man job, but it's not all been plain sailing with some scrapped panels due to the odd mistake, but we're getting there! I've a fair amount of internal work to do to them following the rear panel being fitted before the baffle can go on. To help speed things up, I'll be getting on with the internals whilst my colleague gets on with the front panel.
walpurgis
27-03-2013, 09:07
Looking good!
But will you be able to move them? They're going to weigh something.
realysm42
27-03-2013, 09:13
Great work so far, I'm excited to see the end result!
BTW, when leaving things to dry, do you have the heating turned right up (guessing no) and do you worry about damp this time of year?
Great work so far, I'm excited to see the end result!
BTW, when leaving things to dry, do you have the heating turned right up (guessing no) and do you worry about damp this time of year?
I don't leave the heating up (too miserly) so rely on leaving things for longer! No worries about damp. The glue will set irrespective and the lacquer is water based after all! The ply is top quality Birch ply and it won't be subjected to particularly high humidity in the workshop.
Looking good!
But will you be able to move them? They're going to weigh something.
Hi Geoff
They're going to weight far more than I anticipated! The weight of each side panel is 15Kg, so there's around 35 to 40Kg in each hollow shell and that's before front and rear panels are fitted, all the internal bracing and sloping internal base, all the bitumastic sheeting, the drivers, the fittings, and the grill. 70 to 75Kg each is probably a good estimate but I'll weight them when done. No way are they a single person lift. It'll be minimum a two man lift per box.
Looking really nice Paul :)
Cheers Jon.
A little more progress. Sloping internal base is now in and braced very sturdily from underneath. Braces for one speaker are also in and rear panel is about ready to glue into place. Net internal volume works out at 158 litres, so the braces, front baffle internal laminations, ports and driver and bitumen sheeting take up a surprising 20 litres of volume.
I'm teetering on the edge of revising the porting arrangements to more an EBS design by lowering resonant frequency to 28 Hz to flatten out the bass response and remove the slight peaky response of the twin ports tuned for 33 Hz. The Alex Garner recommendation was 35 Hz with two ports but the response models as quite peaky and could lead to boominess in room. I know that I have a lift at 28/35/72Hz of over 6dB and that twin port tuning (200 long 100 dia) results in bass being just 3dB down at 38 Hz and -7dB at 30Hz.
A 120mm long single port is just -5dB down between 30 and 50 Hz before gently rising to zero at 500Hz. Seems a better tuning arrangement to me. The tuning is a remarkable 28Hz at -6dB which is some serious bass!
I'd be happy to take advice off anyone who's tried either of these tuning points for a cabinet between 150 and 170 litre volume plus any subjective impressions of in-room response. Need to know before midweek next week as that's when I'll be sorting the front baffles and ports!
The two tuning options are shown below. Green line is twin port 33.5Hz and red line is single port, 28Hz tuning:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/158litretuning_zpsf4f91ae6.png
Updated pics of the internal sloping base and bracing now completed for one of the cabinets.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_9681-e_zps289016ce.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_9680-e_zps276ca6f0.jpg
Got the other one to do then the back panels will be glued into place. I'll be sealing and painting the rear panels rather than veneering. They'll be finished in a high gloss piano black finish. I'm going to add a small brass plate with the name of the loudspeaker at the back. trouble is, I haven't thought of a name yet....could this be an AoS competition I feel coming on? :scratch::pub:
walpurgis
28-03-2013, 19:36
You could call it the 'Ohmygawdthisisgoingtotakefourofus'
julesd68
28-03-2013, 19:59
"The Gloucester".
You could call it the 'Ohmygawdthisisgoingtotakefourofus' :lol::lol::lol:
That's closer to the truth than you might imagine!
"The Gloucester".
Doesn't quite have the same ring as "Cantebury", "York", or "Lancaster"!
What seems to suit it better is "Bismark"!
Looking good, Paul!
I'm going to add a small brass plate with the name of the loudspeaker at the back. trouble is, I haven't thought of a name yet....could this be an AoS competition I feel coming on?
Great idea - if you want, we could run with that :)
Marco.
Updated pics of the internal sloping base and bracing now completed for one of the cabinets.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_9681-e_zps289016ce.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_9680-e_zps276ca6f0.jpg
Got the other one to do then the back panels will be glued into place. I'll be sealing and painting the rear panels rather than veneering. They'll be finished in a high gloss piano black finish. I'm going to add a small brass plate with the name of the loudspeaker at the back. trouble is, I haven't thought of a name yet....could this be an AoS competition I feel coming on? :scratch::pub:
Tannoy - Dagenham and Redbridge?
On a more serious note will these be available commercially Paul?
Doesn't quite have the same ring as "Cantebury", "York", or "Lancaster"!
What seems to suit it better is "Bismark"!
You could have a whole range named after WWII German warships - Graf Spee, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen. Except none of them came to very good endings.
Seriously though I am really enjoying following this build. I guess I am not the only one whose lack of a workshop and the necessary skills preclude me from doing something similar. Particularly like the measurements being used to match the speakers to the room they will live in. That really is the optimum way to do it IMO.
jandl100
29-03-2013, 11:07
So - a seriously poorly back and recent surgery ... and your building a pair of 75Kg speakers which will inevitably need a lot of moving around ... :doh: :lol:
A name? Hmmm .... how about "The Dursley Dreadnought" or "Spinal Suicide" :)
Thanks for all the feedback folks. To answer a few questions:
On a more serious note will these be available commercially Paul?
If they work really well, then it would be a good thing to offer others the chance to own a similar pair, but they'll have to perform well. I wont offer them if performance is anything short of excellent.
Looking good, Paul!
Quote:
I'm going to add a small brass plate with the name of the loudspeaker at the back. trouble is, I haven't thought of a name yet....could this be an AoS competition I feel coming on?
Great idea - if you want, we could run with that
Marco.
Yesterday 21:33
Thanks Marco, appreciated. I like the idea that after so much work, they deserve to be named! I'm currently looking into musical associations which haven't all been done before (like "Concerto" for example). If they work in harmony with the room, then "Reference Harmony" would be apt if a little twee!
Having a few tuning issues at the minute and now tempted to reduce the ports to a single port but have a few available for in room running at EBS 28Hz (F6 response) and 32 Hz F3 tuning. Seems the sensible way forward rather than use the twin ports which model quite peaky at the Alex Garner suggested tuning.
Some more progress. Back panels completed and glued in, panel painted in black and two coats 90 sheen lacquer applied. Cut out at base is where the removable panel for the crossover and binding posts goes.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6447_zpsad5cbeb8.jpg
Same detail, other cabinet:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6451_zps914c12bb.jpg
Spent part of this afternoon lengthening the ports for EBS tuning by using some PVC pipe couplers glued to the ends then used a heat gun and a plastic handle from a hand tool to form flares on the entry into the ports. Once completed, the rest of the afternoon was spent priming the inside of each cabinet for the bitumen sheeting. A particularly smelly and messy job! Insides now sealed:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6455_zps94c46a2a.jpg
A picture of yours truly standing next to one of the cabs to give a little scale!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6453_zps8b54d23e.jpg
Tomorrow will be spent fitting out the internals. The front baffles are now laminated and veneered. If I get time, they'll be cut for the drivers and ports tomorrow. Looking good for completion of the cabinets next week.
walpurgis
04-04-2013, 19:18
They're beginning to look very posh Paul!
Some more progress. Spend the entire day getting the internal damping in place. Fitting the bitumen sheeting was a filthy job. Went belts and braces and used 10mm industrial staples in case it ever thought about peeling itself off again!
Used 12mm dense wool felt around driver chamber, top and bottom panel (on top of the bitumen), then 40mm acoustic foam and finally, a 35mm layer of Monacor lambswool/BAFF around just the central area where the driver will be. This wont impede airflow to the vents which will be located below:
Fitting out the central chamber:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6456_zps60fa237d.jpg
Damping sheeting all in and wool felt glued into place:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6457_zps5413b2ce.jpg
Close up of damping layers:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6459_zps0b3da28a.jpg
Central chamber fitted out with lambswool/BAFF:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6464_zps5c8c049e.jpg
Front baffles now veneered but unfortunately the magnets (6nr) can be quite clearly seen beneath the veneer which is a shame. As these have been bookmatched and I dont have enough veneer to re-do them, I'll just leave as-is. Holes for driver (rebated hole) and ports have yet to be cut. The underside of this 24mm slab of ply has been laminated with 6mm MDF with cut outs for the braces:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6466_zpse3b9663d.jpg
Should have the speakers completed by Wednesday.
anthonyTD
05-04-2013, 16:43
Excellent workmanship!
Cab profile look very similar to some of the later Kef designs.:)
A...
Beautiful!
Can you imagine how many thousands this would cost if done as a commercial venture for production speakers? Mass production or not, these boxes wouldn't be cheap!
Thanks for the thumbs up guys...it's been a learning journey and a lot of hard work! The proof of the pudding and all that though, so waiting with baited breath to hear what the outcome will be next week. It's been quite an expensive project too, probably could have bought a really good pair of speakers for what this little lot has cost, but to buy somthing LIKE this would probably set me back 5 times what it's cost me.
A little more progress this evening. The removable panels for the crossovers are completed although I may try and finish them off with a better quality lacquer coat. I've now fitted the crossovers and binding posts into place and have just finished soldering the crossover connection to the binding posts which are silver plated copper:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6467_zpsee3c9cc6.jpg
The binding post side (rear of cabinet) can be seen next to the inside containing the crossover. I've rebated the panels and added some compressible draught excluder strips to act as gaskets:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6468_zpsc877351b.jpg
The Black Adder
06-04-2013, 08:36
Paul, have you upgraded the wire from the the speaker connector to the tweeter on the Tannoy's?
If not I'd seriously suggest that the crossovers should be hard wired to the speaker terminals. :)
Looking amazing matey, really good. They look like Wilson Benesch.. but obviously more beefy than their Pringle tubes they call cabs... LOL
Paul, have you upgraded the wire from the the speaker connector to the tweeter on the Tannoy's?
If not I'd seriously suggest that the crossovers should be hard wired to the speaker terminals. :)
Looking amazing matey, really good. They look like Wilson Benesch.. but obviously more beefy than their Pringle tubes they call cabs... LOL
I haven't Joe as I'm unsure what an upgraded wire looks like ;) They're fine mate, the connectors are new old stock and fit really firmly. Yes, it would be better to hard-wire but the drivers may be in and out of the cabs for a while so the plugs are a better idea for now.
The one thing that does concern me is the proximity of the inductors on the PCB. I must speak with the builder of the crossover as these inductors should be much wider spaced than they are.
realysm42
06-04-2013, 09:12
Great work Paul, impressive speed of progress too.
Hope I'm not taken this too ot; when wiring internals, would it ever be wise to use the same wire as the speaker cable you've used?
The logic behind the question is that all speaker cable has a sound, if you like it then it would be best to preserve it, right?
Great work Paul, impressive speed of progress too.
Hope I'm not taken this too ot; when wiring internals, would it ever be wise to use the same wire as the speaker cable you've used?
The logic behind the question is that all speaker cable has a sound, if you like it then it would be best to preserve it, right?
Hi Martin, thanks.
RE the cable query, I don't believe in cables (ie cable core conductors themselves) having a a sound, just in having LCR parameters, so providing the cable is fit for purpose, I'm happy. Whilst I do think that interconnect signal cables (by geometry, materials and design) can differ, wiring for a x-over from the binding posts is a very short run and any impedance differences between that length (about 150mm) and the main speaker cables is insignificant. Also, the speaker cable impedance is only a small fraction (less than 5% of the circuit impedance of the speaker). The connections are all hard wired bar the 4 pin connector to the speaker and this is a NOS item which has been cleaned and treated and is a firm fit. The wired to the tweeter and bass drive units are all brand new. :eyebrows:
montesquieu
06-04-2013, 09:58
Paul, have you upgraded the wire from the the speaker connector to the tweeter on the Tannoy's?
If not I'd seriously suggest that the crossovers should be hard wired to the speaker terminals. :)
Looking amazing matey, really good. They look like Wilson Benesch.. but obviously more beefy than their Pringle tubes they call cabs... LOL
+1 Wot Joe sez. The original wire is pretty crap and the connector (however snug) isn't the best, direct wiring is the way to go.Maybe something to do when everything else is all sorted.
Crossed wires methinks! ALL wiring is new and NON Tannoy. The only thing that is Tannoy is the NOS 4 pin plug and there's nothing wrong with the connection which unlike my old ones, isn't corroded or anything like that. The original crossovers used crappy lighting flex (which when pulled apart was badly corroded). I renewed the wiring on my original crossovers which I have kept as spares. Changing the wire I have will make zero difference. Soldering in place of the 4-pin may be something I do in the future but only once the crossover tweaks have been done, so its a long way off just yet.
The Black Adder
06-04-2013, 16:36
The proximity of the coils could be better to be honest.
They are ok but I too would question the design. For me it would have to be right and it would bug me if not. But that's me,,, lol
No worries, if your swapping in and out then it's best to stay with the connector. But as Tom said, no matter how good that connector is the contact is still a weak point regardless of how good the plug is.
What I've learned is that any sort of plug on the outward from the crossover can make a difference to the sound.
Hi Joe
yes, you're right of course but it's by degrees and some things have a more significant impact than others.
I've spoken with Mark Pitcher today regarding the inductor coil spacing and I think Mark will be amending future designs as a result.
I'll be lifting the inductor from where it is and moving it to the far side of the PCB and soldering new connecting wires to the existing wiring point on the PCB. A bit of a pain, but better to get things right.
I may also be swapping out the notch filter 30R resistor for a 35R value instead just to tame the HF response down a little (not much) either that or replacing the 4mH inductor (smaller of the two which are next to each other) for a 4.5mH one as that should have a similar effect.
One thing at a time though!
Got to find time to finish the speaker cabinets off next week. Will report back once I've done that!
Just back from the workshop. Both cabs received their 2nd coat of lacquer. The polystyrene in the pictures is just there to plug the holes during lacquering and aren't some new fangled driver design! Some pictures as promised:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6479_zpsff36ebe2.jpg
Have yet to fix the edge strips which are made from Walnut. They're all ready and have had radii machine on the baffle edge. Also out of sight are the custom made baffle frames machined from a solid lump of ply (magnets now glued into place and the magnetic covers work really well. 6nr 10mm diameter by 3mm deep magnets in both the speakers and the covers are about perfect).
Some more pics:
Close up of side panel after 2nd coat of lacquer:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6478_zps53c1490d.jpg
Rear view:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6476_zpsdb3f3de9.jpg
Side view:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6480_zpsdc5eb2ff.jpg
View from a step ladder!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6485_zpsc99c61b3.jpg
50mm deep plinth which protects cabinet. Its curved to the same profile but stepped in:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6486_zps7dd5cb6c.jpg
The cabinets just need a final slight sanding, 2 more coats of lacquer, the edge strips gluing into place, the grills finishing and the drivers and crossovers fitted in.
I reckon another 3 to 4 days. Awaiting more lacquer which won't be here until next week.
montesquieu
11-04-2013, 15:57
Fantasic Paul.
Though I'd be busting to have a listen long before the lacquering was finished .....
Fantasic Paul.
Though I'd be busting to have a listen long before the lacquering was finished .....
I have some stand-ins to keep me going Tom, a pair of Mission 760i's sat on some plastic stools :eek:
Sounds ok, but where's my bass gone :scratch:
Yes, the sooner the big cabs are insitu the better.
Still need to think of a name for them as if they perform as planned, they'll be welcomed into the RFC fold :cool:
Reference Harmony perhaps?
realysm42
11-04-2013, 17:52
Reference journey; its what you've been on to get here and I'm not just talking about the speaker design itself, sounds like you've been on this path for an few months at least...
Spot the difference:
Before:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6467_zpsee3c9cc6.jpg
After:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_6506_zps840fb1f4.jpg
Almost there. Rounded Walnut oiled edge strips now on. 3rd coat of lacquer applied today and ports sprayed black and ready to go in. Just got the grills to finish today and the speakers are finished.
I do of course have the crossovers to rebuild but will use the one's I've got unit I can get time to build the Foo components ones. Hope you like the (almost) finished speaker. I think that the Walnut against the Ripple Sycamore works better than expected and really finishes them off well:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6511_zps9dc0b698.jpg
Its a brace of cabs!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6513_zpsd02a0c58.jpg
Lacquer really brings out the depth of the grain although hard to see on the photo:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6514_zpsc1662635.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6515_zpsfff6197f.jpg
Imposing view of 65Kg of 1.28m tall cabinet!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6517_zps47e44435.jpg
:stalks:, put the drivers in and connect up!:):popcorn:
The Black Adder
17-04-2013, 16:40
When are the doors and the clothes rails being fitted?...:lol:
Seriously, looking magnificent... Yep, that is a better orientation for the inductor on the crossover. Just make sure it's glued down really well. I'm sure you will.
Cheers Joe
Grills finished this afternoon and I've since spent 4 hours hunting down all the parts needed for the up-market crossovers. Had a heck of a job getting hold of good quality inductors that would fit on the PCB but finally traced some Jantzen air cored ones plus one P-core for the HF. Total bill for all the crossover components was £165 for the two, so well chuffed seeing as there's some very tasty components (including 3% Clarity ESA Caps).
I'll install the Ebay crossovers for the time being until all my parts arrive and I can build the proper ones. I found a few issues with the Ebay ones and having spoken with Mark (he's a really nice guy) who built them, it's apparent that all's not quite as it should be with them, so he's sold me a few un-populated PCBs with which to build my own. The HF inductor is the wrong value, the 47R resistor doesn't account for the original autoformer inductance ratio (green tag connected in circuit to the Orange = 1.4 times) so that resistor should be 35R, and the HF bypass cap is too high a value (should be 1.5uF). I should have done more homework before buying the one's I did but Mark built them in good faith so I haven't chased for a refund. You win some, you lose some.
Speakers being installed tomorrow so should have first impressions for you within a few days, albeit with the "wrong" crossovers fitted.
The Black Adder
17-04-2013, 20:19
Yep the bypass cap should be 1.5uf. I used the Russian cold war versions, it's a PLIO cap and are amazing.. better to my ears in that position than an MR.
The 47R resistor is correct or as close as can be to 50R. But with an autoformer you can take that resistor out of circuit as the autoformer on one of the settings (can't remember which) is near enough the correct impedance.
Yep the bypass cap should be 1.5uf. I used the Russian cold war versions, it's a PLIO cap and are amazing.. better to my ears in that position than an MR.
The 47R resistor is correct or as close as can be to 50R. But with an autoformer you can take that resistor out of circuit as the autoformer on one of the settings (can't remember which) is near enough the correct impedance.
I don't think that's actually accurate Joe. The autoformer has an impedance ratio across the coils between green/orange so the driver doesn't actually see 50 Ohms at all settings, only for the one where the ratio is 1:1. I'll double check that though as you've got me thinking. It's the "green" autoformer tapping that I'm emulating for the fixed inductor/ resistor values.
The Black Adder
17-04-2013, 20:47
Hmm.. ok. I'll take a look in to that, Paul. But I do know that some autoformer values were published wrong. It took someone to unwind an original autoformer to find it's correct values. The original circuit diagram knocking around on the net is wrong in places but the 50R value is consistent on both the diagram and the original crossovers.
Lovely build Paul, they look really beautiful and really informative regarding cross overs...nice to know someone in the country is experiencing similar headaches as me at at the moment:) They will surely be a credit to your clear expertise and knowledge.
This stage is frustrating, you just want to listen but the final details (as we agree) make all the difference, looking forward to more.
VB Si.
Hmm.. ok. I'll take a look in to that, Paul. But I do know that some autoformer values were published wrong. It took someone to unwind an original autoformer to find it's correct values. The original circuit diagram knocking around on the net is wrong in places but the 50R value is consistent on both the diagram and the original crossovers.
That's true Joe but the 50 Ohm is only 50 Ohm at one of the settings. At all other settings the value is modified by the autoformer's impedance/inductance ratio and at the highest autoformer setting, it's out of circuit as the autoformer presents sufficient electrical damping to prevent HF ringing without additional resistance.
My comments are aimed at a fixed inductor value replacing the autoformer so the resistor value depends upon the tap you want to emulate as all taps have different inductance and all but one have a voltage lift too.
The only tap which is electrically flat is the green tap and that equates to 2.8 to 2.9 MH at 0.7 Ohms inductor resistance (as measured...I don't pay any attention to what might be stated on various internet resources as I'm basing all values on those as measured with my own original Tannoy crossovers) I'll check it out and make sure that the correct value is stated here to avoid confusion!
The Black Adder
17-04-2013, 21:16
That's true Joe but the 50 Ohm is only 50 Ohm at one of the settings.
lol... Crossed wires quite literally, that's what I meant. heheh :)
Lovely build Paul, they look really beautiful and really informative regarding cross overs...nice to know someone in the country is experiencing similar headaches as me at at the moment:) They will surely be a credit to your clear expertise and knowledge.
This stage is frustrating, you just want to listen but the final details (as we agree) make all the difference, looking forward to more.
VB Si.
Cheers Si and I better appreciate now what you went through although yours probably took way more time than mine. I'm up to 230 hours now (design and construction) although the initial design was a major headache as it was from scratch. At least I have the plans now!
First listen will be tomorrow albeit using crossovers which I believe to have a few flaws on them, so I am expecting things to sound a little bright but with better bass response than before...we'll see! The little details are what matter and ultimately what trip you up. I've spent 80% of my design time on 20% of the design if that makes sense.
lol... Crossed wires quite literally, that's what I meant. heheh :)
LoL :lol:
The Black Adder
17-04-2013, 21:21
I went through 3 crossover designs/variants/components/connections, you name it. Also 6 months of listening... It's hard work but great when it's right.
I'm happy to share the wealth if needs be... :)
Hi Joe
Right, finally got to the bottom of it and I was correct first time round. It SHOULD be 34 (or 36!) Ohms on fixed inductor settings. The reason:
Look at the circuit diagram. the green tapping may be electrically flat (ie no step up) BUT the 50 Ohm resistor is not connected to the green tap, but to a higher one where the impedance ratio between taps is 1.4. That is the same as a reflected impedance ratio across a transformer, so you have to divide the 50 Ohm resistor value by 1.4 which gets you to 35.7 ohms (soz, not 34, but 36 Ohms...good job I checked :lol:)
As far as the rest of the circuit is concerned, if a fixed inductor value of 2.9mH is chosen without the autoformer, then the only correct resistor value that can be substituted is 35.7 Ohms but a value of between 34 and 36 Ohms should be fine. I'm using two 68 Ohm resistors in parallel as that's what was available to me.
It's a difficult one to spot and it takes patience when reading the original circuit diagram with the autoformer, which is why most people I think get it wrong.
The Black Adder
17-04-2013, 21:40
Ah.. yes, sorry. I forgot your using a 'fixed' inductor for some reason. I'm using autoformers... Sorry fella. That is correct with a fixed inductor.
Yes I remember the diagram now, in fact I had mine incorrectly connected at first before I looked at the diagram again. Well, noticing something wasn't gelling made me look at the diagram again.. lol, live n learn.
Ah.. yes, sorry. I forgot your using a 'fixed' inductor for some reason. I'm using autoformers... Sorry fella. That is correct with a fixed inductor.
Yes I remember the diagram now, in fact I had mine incorrectly connected at first before I looked at the diagram again. Well, noticing something wasn't gelling made me look at the diagram again.. lol, live n learn.
My bad...I based the 34 Ohm value on an impedance ratio of 1.42
That, of course, is the voltage step up ratio between green and orange taps :doh:
The reflected impedance ratio for all intents is the same as the inductance ratio which is 2.0
Therefore the correct resistor value for a fixed inductor of 2.9mH is 25 Ohms.
The Black Adder
18-04-2013, 08:42
My bad...I based the 34 Ohm value on an impedance ratio of 1.42
That, of course, is the voltage step up ratio between green and orange taps :doh:
The reflected impedance ratio for all intents is the same as the inductance ratio which is 2.0
Therefore the correct resistor value for a fixed inductor of 2.9mH is 25 Ohms.
Hmm.. I seriously doubt the discrepancy would be that audible though, not on that resistor.
Anti Meep
18-04-2013, 09:16
Tannoy Glenair 15" or Tannoy Turnberry SE (Prestige) and why?
Recently heard the DC10a's and a while back had the pleasure of hearing some 15" monitor golds in York cabs.
The DC10a's I wouldn't give tuppence for...absolutely dreadful; the old timers were wonderful in a warm and cuddly fashion. The only one's I haven't heard that I'd like to are the two mentioned above. Opinions?
I was fortunate enough to be able to spend a wee bit of time recently in front of a pair of Glenair 15's. there is something quite beguiling about them. Effortless. The music just seems to flow. I didn't get a sense of the music being radiated out from them. Sort of like I was in amongst the music somehow. This was via some Line Magnetic Valves. I would love to hear them on the end of the big Modwright integrated. If I had $12-$13,000.00 NZD to spend on a pair of speakers these would be at or near the top of my audition list for sure.:)
Right then folks (queue drum roll)............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................want to see some pictures (no, not those sort of pictures...some people just have a smutty mind!)............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......Here we are. All finished:
Grills on:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6556_zpse56576a1.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6557_zpsd90800aa.jpg
Grills removed. Notice no nasty plastic speaker grill sockets...these are magnetic :eyebrows:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6558_zpsd9cf680e.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6563_zps0ed3ba1c.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6566_zps71ca276f.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6568_zpsb3ca281b.jpg
Final all up weigth was heavier than expected at 75kg :eek:
Initial impressions:
Very deep but well controlled bass. Playing Dark Side of the Moon, the initial pulse at the start was deep and powerful enough to make you feel the note in your insides!
Treble energy a little high due to the crossover issues but that will be resolved.
Mid range is a wee bit recessed :scratch:
I'm thinking that I need to remove some of the wadding (I can always put it back if needs be), so the long haul now starts with tuning them. It was too much to expect a new design to be spot on first time but it's mighty close!
jandl100
18-04-2013, 12:37
:wow:
Eagle owl
18-04-2013, 13:04
One word describes what you've done Paul, AWESOME.
Geoff. :)
Rare Bird
18-04-2013, 13:16
Not my cuppa Tea Paul but you have clearly made a loverly job of them..
:thumbsup:
The Black Adder
18-04-2013, 13:42
They look superb... Well done you. A few tweeks I guess is always the case. It pays to be methodical with them too...
:drool:
Smashin' job :clap:
Thanks fellas. Yes Joe, little detailed issues matter (at least to me they do) so it'll probably take quite a while getting them to sound exactly as intended. they;re really not that far off now. Bass is incredible...really deep, detailed and not at all boomy nor afflicted by overhang so I guess I got something right with the cab design!
A few more shots...finishing touches (NOS Tannoy Badges):
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6572_zps21b07d9d.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6574_zps8daf982c.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6580_zpsc60f88c8.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6581_zpsdccbfc8a.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6586_zpsef7f716d.jpg
Rear view of curvy derrière:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6593_zps86516576.jpg
Binding posts on removable rear panel which also houses the x-overs on the inside face:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6594_zpsbb8bb122.jpg
Brilliant work Paul, I hope you're very pleased and proud of yourself! :)
walpurgis
18-04-2013, 22:38
That's a very posh looking pair of speakers you ended up with Paul, if you went into a Tannoy dealer's showroom and saw those you'd expect an £8000 price tag.
You've done a blinding job! Hope they give you the satisfaction that amount of thought and work deserves.
Well done mate!
jandl100
19-04-2013, 06:01
Yep, a work of art indeed. A fabulous job. :thumbsup:
£8k? - from the photos ... £10k, £12k, you wouldn't bat an eyelid.
And I do like a curvy derriere. :eyebrows:
Get 'em 'voiced' to your satisfaction and I will grace them with my presence. :D
:wow:
I concur.........beauties, you must be very proud of your work.
Yep, a work of art indeed. A fabulous job. :thumbsup:
£8k? - from the photos ... £10k, £12k, you wouldn't bat an eyelid.
+1 (with bells on)!
Paul, this says it all:
:youtheman: :youtheman:
Marco.
The Black Adder
19-04-2013, 06:48
I guess the curved backs are to stop standing waves, a great idea.
Thanks guys.
Yes, the curvy shape is to reduce the risk of standing waves. The internal top and base panels aren't parallel for the same reason. Unfortunately I have overdone the padding so today I'll be removing the monacor lambswool wadding from the middle chamber and removing the acoustic foam from the base and seeing if I can cut down the thickness in the top. I didn't put any wadding or foam on the front baffle in the end which was the right decision. The deficiencies in the crossover are showing as the mid's too recessed but we'll see what some wadding removal does (so starts the black art side of things!) In a way I now wished I'd just placed the wadding in instead of gluing it! That way I'd have been able to remove a little at a time with ease until I had the cabinets voiced properly. It'll be a knuckle scraping butchering exercise now :doh:
Played Mahler's 5th transcribed for Organ works last night and the bass of that big organ pipe from Gloucester Cathedral was rattling all the light fittings and the doors! They certainly dispel the myth that vintage Tannoys don't do bass. Upper mid range and HF is fine too and crystal clear. You can play these LOUD without internal resonances making them sound hard and distorted. Some tinkering needed over (probably) months but I'll get there with them and know now what I need to do to get the next pair spot on first time!
realysm42
19-04-2013, 07:25
How does that big drive do anything other than bass?
How does that big drive do anything other than bass?
Because it's a dual concentric Tannoy HPD unit Martin. It's a full range set up.
Well this morning I am absolutely delighted to report that after nervously ripping out almost all of the lambswool wadding, just leaving the acoustic foam, and a square of lambswool directly behind the dirver, the balance is back, the mid range hole is plugged and they sound simply STUNNING. Possibly the best loudspeakers I've had in this room at any rate. Remarkably colouration free and you can drive them painfully loud without the sound distorting or breaking up at all. Bass is very well integrated, but for a little more bass slam the ports could be shortened by 25mm. I'll leave as is for the moment though and perhaps order some more ports of various lengths to have a play with. The usual bass hump that gives commercial speakers "slam" isn't there. Instead it's remarkably well integrated (a little like big Harbeth M40's playing in large rooms). You can feel the low notes but there's no boom and bass has real texture to it. Perhaps we've become conditioned to manufacturer's tuning tricks of wham, bam, thank you mam at the expense of accuracy?
The volume needs turning up a fair bit more than it did as the bass sensitivity is slightly down with EBS tuning, but they still play quietly very well indeed. It's only when they're turned up that you get that close-to-live experience courtesy of very low distortion levels. Pretty chuffed overall :surf:
The Black Adder
19-04-2013, 09:42
NIRVANA!!!
steviej233
19-04-2013, 11:52
They look AWESOME :drool:
I bet they sound even better!!
Fantastically beautiful 'speakers. They look like they have been made to match the interior of a 1920's ocean liner. I love the combination of wood finishes and the curves, that really does it for me. Top job.
The Black Adder
19-04-2013, 12:29
They are deco looking for sure.
Lee Henley
19-04-2013, 14:24
They look great Paul, a fantastic job and certainly something to be proud of and Im sure they sound as good as they look
BTW - what amp have you settled on to drive them?
Thanks Lee. They're now sounding much better since I removed all of the lambswool wadding and the foam from just the sloping base! Loads of life but buttery smooth even at high SPLs. Lack the hard charging bite of some modern designs but for an HPDs they're pretty amazing sounding things now. I'm using a Croft preamp which is driving VAC pa60 monoblocs (VAC is little known this side of the pond but is an American valve amplifier manufacturer and very popular State-side). Picture:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6342_zps43f1e97b.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6341_zps02170a6b.jpg
We need more piccies Paul.
We need more piccies Paul.
What would you be interested in?
What would you be interested in?
Er nudes.... no those lovely Tannoys:)
Lee Henley
19-04-2013, 16:20
Thanks Lee. They're now sounding much better since I removed all of the lambswool wadding and the foam from just the sloping base! Loads of life but buttery smooth even at high SPLs. Lack the hard charging bite of some modern designs but for an HPDs they're pretty amazing sounding things now. I'm using a Croft preamp which is driving VAC pa60 monoblocs (VAC is little known this side of the pond but is an American valve amplifier manufacturer and very popular State-side). Picture:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6342_zps43f1e97b.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6341_zps02170a6b.jpg
They look lovely mate, I fancy some mono blocks myself!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just because Andy asked so nicely:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6604_zps9e234754.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6608_zpsc49ea9ce.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6609_zpsbd796460.jpg
Top job Paul, top job - awesome.
Just because Andy asked so nicely:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6604_zps9e234754.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6608_zpsc49ea9ce.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6609_zpsbd796460.jpg
:stalks::stalks::stalks:
Top work there mate- can l have your Turnberry's asked nicely:)
Review required.:)
:stalks::stalks::stalks:
Top work there mate- can l have your Turnberry's asked nicely:)
Review required.:)
:lol: I had to sell those to help pay for these!
Talking of "these" sensible suggestions for a name so I don't have to keep calling them "these"?
If I decide to offer them commercially (a little work to do on the design, including crossovers, before that happens as they need to be as good as I can get them) I'd probably like to pre-fix them with the "Reference" tag. Burying my nose in a music dictionary, we have a few that might or might not fit the bill!:
Cadenza (already taken by KEF?), Coda (ditto!), Concerto (twee), Choral, Prelude, Harmony, Adagio, Symphony, Cantabile, Cantata, Etude, Oratorio, Rubato, Serenade, Sonata, Unison, and Vivace.
They will probably end up with little plaques proudly proclaiming them as one of the above if they were to make it onto the product list.
jandl100
20-04-2013, 08:32
KEF did the Concerto. Quite a nice speaker, too! And the Cadenza. ------------------ And the Cantata. They had a C-series, way back when.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/KEF-Concerto-Main-Stereo-Speakers/00/$(KGrHqN,!p8E-61FVErWBP3Y5Jj(,Q~~_35.JPGhttp://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4839&stc=1&d=1089080380http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/22/196950_thumb_694b95aa3840119e65fc90f334b4103f.jpg
jandl100
20-04-2013, 08:39
Cadenza (already taken by KEF?), Coda (ditto!), Concerto (twee), Choral, Prelude, Harmony, Adagio, Symphony, Cantabile, Cantata, Etude, Oratorio, Rubato, Serenade, Sonata, Unison, and Vivace.
How about the Climax? :lol:
Accelerando. Presto. Pianissimo --- err, no. Forte. Triple Forte! Fortissimo. Agitato. Lento. Expressivo.
How about the Climax? :lol:
Accelerando. Presto. Pianissimo --- err, no. Forte. Triple Forte! Fortissimo. Agitato. Lento. Expressivo.
Sounds like the latest line-up from Starbucks or Costa-Coffee Jerry :lol:
Fcuk me those speakers look good, even if they don't colour-match the cabinet they're next to ;) Actually, a collection of proper wood finishes of different colours together isn't bad at all, since they're real organic materials.
I really hope these speakers sound great too and in a way wish this style could be put into production. I think the price would be horrendous though and although Tannoy would have difficulty matching the finish as seen in the photos, I bet a completed pair of Tannoy made production models would cost £10K or more - I mean, the Glenairs look so boring and bland in comparison to me...
Well done!!!!!! :clap:
wiicrackpot
20-04-2013, 10:13
Talking of "these" sensible suggestions for a name so I don't have to keep calling them "these"?
Paul, stellar effort and way better than your last pair which i was not a fan of, almost makes me want to keep mine and commission a set of cabs from you. :)
As for names, personally i'm tired kit with poncey Italian names so i'd stay clear of those, sorry Marco !!!, nothing personal. :pat:
Winston or Churchill ~ on it's own, something proud and decidely British, especially Tannoy's heritage as a British brand.
Beauchamp or Beaulieu ~ like that because your cabs and Tannoy's sound ''beautiful'', hence the 'beau' part of the name, nice French pronounciation and beautiful language, much preferable to Italian (sorry again Marco). :rolleyes:
Velvellatio ~ Yes, i can hear you say ''WTF !!!'', say it quick you'll get a Vetvet Suck, the risque name really suits the sum of it's whole, just close your eyes when you listen and use the power of your imagination, when you open your eyes, the 'horns' don't die, just don't let the wife see it. :D
....and all the above rings well with Reference which you would to put on after it.
Paul, stellar effort and way better than your last pair which i was not a fan of, almost makes me want to keep mine and commission a set of cabs from you. :)
As for names, personally i'm tired kit with poncey Italian names so i'd stay clear of those, sorry Marco !!!, nothing personal. :pat:
Winston or Churchill ~ on it's own, something proud and decidely British, especially Tannoy's heritage as a British brand.
Beauchamp or Beaulieu ~ like that because your cabs and Tannoy's sound ''beautiful'', hence the 'beau' part of the name, nice French pronounciation and beautiful language, much preferable to Italian (sorry again Marco). :rolleyes:
Velvellatio ~ Yes, i can hear you say ''WTF !!!'', say it quick you'll get a Vetvet Suck, the risque name really suits the sum of it's whole, just close your eyes when you listen and use the power of your imagination, when you open your eyes, the 'horns' don't die, just don't let the wife see it. :D
....and all the above rings well with Reference which you would to put on after it.
I'm liking "Reference Beaulieu".
It follows Tannoy's British place name theme too...
All the bits for the new (improved...ie correct values!) crossovers have finally arrived:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6611_zpse8d6c8df.jpg
It's going to be a heck of a squeeze to get everything onto the boards! The air cored LF inductor is huge! Silicone and cable ties will be needed so the board will have to be very carefully drilled :uhho:
This is probably how I'll lay everything out:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6612_zps66bed0c7.jpg
Work will start later today.
wiicrackpot
20-04-2013, 15:18
I'm liking "Reference Beaulieu".
It follows Tannoy's British place name theme too...
I would've thought it sounded nicer the other way round, as in ''Beaulieu Reference'', :)
the good thing is you can just use ''Beau'' for everyday reference when speaking with friends and forum dude's,
they'll know what it is. :cool:
Are those Xover parts the same value as original Tannoy items?, if so whats with the big size?,
how much better are fettled Xovers over stnadard one's if you can quantify it?,
it just seems such huge expense if the gains are just ''different'' instead of better,
surely Tannoy know what they were doing when they manufactured them. :scratch:
I would've thought it sounded nicer the other way round, as in ''Beaulieu Reference'', :)
the good thing is you can just use ''Beau'' for everyday reference when speaking with friends and forum dude's,
they'll know what it is. :cool:
Are those Xover parts the same value as original Tannoy items?, if so whats with the big size?,
how much better are fettled Xovers over stnadard one's if you can quantify it?,
it just seems such huge expense if the gains are just ''different'' instead of better,
surely Tannoy know what they were doing when they manufactured them. :scratch:
Exactly the same values as Tannoy used but using far better quality parts. The big inductor is a 2.2mH for the LF. The large black cap is the 3.3uF.
The HF inductor replacing the autoformer is the same inductance as the green tap on the autoformer = 2.9mH
Tannoy knew what they were about but sadly many tweakers don't know what they're about and end up playing about with values and altering the crossover point. I'm keeping it standard and equivalent to the electrically flat circuit setting.
wiicrackpot
20-04-2013, 16:15
Exactly the same values as Tannoy used but using far better quality parts. The big inductor is a 2.2mH for the LF. The large black cap is the 3.3uF.
The HF inductor replacing the autoformer is the same inductance as the green tap on the autoformer = 2.9mH
Tannoy knew what they were about but sadly many tweakers don't know what they're about and end up playing about with values and altering the crossover point. I'm keeping it standard and equivalent to the electrically flat circuit setting.
Ah...good, i thought you have selected different values to alter the Tannoy house sound,
as you'll probably gathered i am not in favour of tampering but it's all good in your case. :cool:
They look stunning the finish is exquisite you should be very very proud
Cheers Jonboy, appreciated.
Well this evening saw me impatient to crack on and I managed to turn out this:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6614_zps3f7bc19e.jpg
I'll be very interested in how the speakers sound once these are in place. Claritycap ESAs and Mundroff capacitor, Jantzen inductors, all to original Tannoy spec. The paralleled resistors are 2nr 50 Ohm ones which in parallel give the correct 25 Ohm load from the HF inductor.
I'll do the other one next week when I have a few hours spare.
Great to see the forum finally back up, so well done to those who did the rescue.
Well, both the new DIY crossovers are in and the speakers have had a fair few hours running now and I have been stunned what a change of crossovers did!
By reverting to the "correct" electrical specifications for the crossover components rather than using the "tweaked" values of the BBV crossovers, the speakers have gone from being good, inoffensive if a little bright, to exceptionally well balanced, dynamic and full in the mid range, just as they should be. I hadn't over damped the cabs at all, so it was a huge relief to learn that several hundred hours work has been justified.
The most extraordinary result by far is the astonishing bass response. It is of epic proportions. I had tuned the cabs for EBS (Extended Bass Shelf) not really knowing how well HPDs would react, but the results are superbly taught and very very deep bass, which in-room (in theory) can extend below Fas for the drivers. How? I won't give all of the secrets of my design away, lets just say that the port dimensions and cab internal design were chosen very very carefully to ensure that at no point do they go from reactive to resistive in operation, meaning enhanced bass. 12 inch HPDs have no right to be in such subterranean territory!
I played some organ works recorded at St Paul's Cathedral yesterday and had to turn the volume down because the bass resonance (only just in the audible spectrum) was reacting with my stomach and making me feel queezy! It was enough when that huge bass organ pipe came in to grab hold of your whole being and shake you in a most disorientating and disconcerting manner. It's fair to say that I have not experienced such lows with probably any other speakers owned, including the Horning Agathons (which were way more boomy).
I need another project now and have one in the pipeline!:eyebrows:
The Black Adder
23-04-2013, 12:04
Great to see the new crossovers have done the biz. Your choice of components are perfect too. ESA's are great. If you ever did change to MR's though what you would probably find (as I have) is that the bass would be tighter, a little less compressed maybe.
Well done all the same... Now go and listen... hehe :)
Well, latest news is that I am so chuffed with the performance of the wonderful loudspeakers that I am being very unselfish and offering them to you, the wonderful hifi enthusiast! I have just updated my website with full details and specifications for anyone interested. Its not something that I take lightly, giving RFC's "Reference" tag to any new product but in the case of these, it is something that I am delighted and proud to do.
Decided to go all blingy for the binding posts so swapped out the CMC's for some rather up-market pure copper Furutech FT-809G Torque-Guard binding posts, yum!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/01c6dd65-7f3c-4e08-8e9e-c8cdb3a7ed62_zps893a2509.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/adb3ffbe-1b09-47f8-aebf-c8d34ed8395e_zps77132d43.jpg
May fit some copper spades. These posts have a clever torque limiting mechanism fitted to ensure that spades are firmly clamped up but you can't over-tighten them as a ratchet kicks in. Prevents damage to the rear binding post panel and the spades/posts. The banana sockets are reassuringly firm fitting.
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