View Full Version : Which Tannoys, folks?
I have just read this thread. It took a long time. I am not knowledgeable about Tannoy speakers (but have enjoyed them the twice I have listened) so no comments here.
I have a couple of points to make though.
Firstly several posters mentioned the superiority of a single 15" unit over multiple small units "because it hardly moves". Well clearly that depends! 4 8" units will move -less- than a single 15", and have 4 motors. I am not disputing what is heard, I haven't compared a speaker with a 15" bass unit with one with 4 8" units... Just sayin'
Secondly when I worked for Garrard in the 1970s manufacturing cost being 10% of retail was a fact.
The manufacturing cost being piece-part plus assembly. I was told this was industry standard, apart from Linn who priced based on what the market could stand (ie -much- more than 10x manufacturing cost at that time, its a fashion business ;-)).
Now at that time all punters expected a 30% discount, so this was factored in to this markup. IIRC the dealer markup was 15% (+ the 30% to allow for a discount to match Comet), distributor margin was 15%, Garrards margin was 10%, the rest went on tooling, R&D and general infrastructure investment.
Yes thats right, the company with the highest skill, most employees and biggest risk had the smallest margin, but otherwise nobody would have stocked it.
We looked into supplying a full range of electronics at the time, since many dealers were forced to stock (and aggressively market) turntables by the Japanese majors if they wanted to sell the electronics. A highly regarded cassette player sold by Pioneer for >£100 was available from the OEM for £9, if we wanted it. And so forth.
It is not just HiFi, the only other product I have in depth experience of is cars, and they are about the same.
Linn certainly worked on the 10 times figure, the £499 Lingo (on launch) costing £47 or so to make (their rep told me). I suspect Naim do too, if not more on their more expensive products. Anything the customer will pay :(
Yep, I'm mentioning them again, but Rega used to work an approximate 7 times, cost to retail on their speakers certainly, although I was told that on their cheaper turntables, the arm was far more profitable than the decks themselves.
The figures mentioned mirror similar figures which I'm aware of for other brands too. What I find incredulous though isn't that a £400 product costs £40 to manufacture, it was what Tannoy gave as a reason for not using decent connections within their speakers. David was told that £1500 to £2000 might be the impact at RRP cost of using a decent block connector and soldering a few other connections. I don't believe that it would add that much because I don't believe it would cost them anywhere near £200 to £300 per pair of speakers to do the job properly. It more likely would add £50 to a set of speakers at manufacturing stage to do a proper job.
It more likely would add £50 to a set of speakers at manufacturing stage to do a proper job.
Indeed, and why it's a disgraceful rip-off if the figures, quoted from Tannoy, are true!
Marco.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 12:04
The figures mentioned mirror similar figures which I'm aware of for other brands too. What I find incredulous though isn't that a £400 product costs £40 to manufacture, it was what Tannoy gave as a reason for not using decent connections within their speakers. David was told that £1500 to £2000 might be the impact at RRP cost of using a decent block connector and soldering a few other connections. I don't believe that it would add that much because I don't believe it would cost them anywhere near £200 to £300 per pair of speakers to do the job properly. It more likely would add £50 to a set of speakers at manufacturing stage to do a proper job.
Hi Paul
The numbers I used with Tannoy were £200 to £300 for Tannoy to get it right. Bear in mind that included a set of 8 WBT 0710ag silver binding posts that cost me £350. They of course would get them much cheaper, say half what I paid. The tag block in place of the dreadful Molex connector would cost literally pennies and hardwiring in place of the automotive push on spades likewise. However the canteen lady could no longer assemble them.
The main point I trying to was make was that these costs in the grand scheme of things for a speaker which now costs more than £23000 are minimal and to continue using Christmas cracker quality connectors pretending that its "state of the art" amounts to treating your customers with contempt. It shows the very low regard they have for us as customers believing that we are not smart enough to understand what they are up to. The analogy I used with Tannoy was that it was a bit like selling a Ferrari fitted with cross ply tyres and allowing the customer to find it did not handle well (when he landed in the ditch on a bend?) and then have to find and buy himself a set of low profile radials. Can you imagine the fun Jeremy Clarkson would have with a high end motor manufacturer who was silly enough to do that!
I have to say that I nearly did not do these upgrades, because working with Westminster Royals even the simplest job is daunting and onerous because of their sheer scale and weight. I was lucky that I had some very good and interested friends who very kindly helped with some of the heavy lifting and moving. Strangely it does not bother me now because in the course of my 10 month project (yes it took me that long) I learned how to handle the cabinets easily and safely so only when they need to be directly lifted or lowered do I now need any help.
I think one of the reasons that manufacturers can still get away with this kind of thing is because we customers are a very diverse bunch. We have different levels of knowledge and experience, different combinations of kit, different systems architecture and completely different listening environments. Probably most of all we have different expectations from our systems and last but not least, completely different listening tastes. This enables them to hide behind the platitude that says "but you customers all want something different. How can we possibly cater for all of your requirements?"
The reality I suspect is more banal and mercenary. They actually do not know what should be done because they do the bare minimum R&D and testing to bring a product to market and no more. So many of the design and production decisions that should have been made after thorough listening tests are simply not done. "we can't do that, another product is scheduled into the test facilities tomorrow". The result is that cost and manufacturing convenience take priority over sound quality and long term customer satisfaction.
Unbelievably, one unguarded comment I got from their technical sales people was "but we're only manufacturers". Now ain't that da troof!
I must get off my soap box now, I've been up here so long I think it's got woodworm.
David :):lol:
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 12:17
Indeed, and why it's a disgraceful rip-off if the figures, quoted from Tannoy, are true!
Marco.
and they are
Many long standing engineers refuse to accept, or at least severely doubt, that subtle changes like this (wiring, terminals, caps-n-coils) can make any audible difference at all. My possible argument is that "better" components can actually bring the crossover to theoretically perfect setup perhaps?
In a speaker costing as much as Westminster Royals, I think it's mad to deny this speaker the best connectors inside and out. I mean, back in the early 1980's, the extensive research they carried out showed just how intrusive the rotary switches were on their earlier crossovers, especially a few years after manufacture. That's why they changed to the gold plated screw tag strip as I recall. Why they couldn't take this thinking just a little further into the connectors inside and out is a mystery. gawd, even stalwart brand Harbeth uses nice looking and very heavy gold plated terminals and even their standard wiring is a good gauge, while remaining flexible enough for the task.
Back in the 80's, audio was priced high, but in the UK, we seemed to have enough disposeable income to allow the manufacturers huge profits. These days, the few left that still make loads are clearly exposed - in my opinion...
Hi Paul
The analogy I used with Tannoy was that it was a bit like selling a Ferrari fitted with cross ply tyres and allowing the customer to find it did not handle well (when he landed in the dich on a bend?) and then have find and choose himself a set of low profile radials. Can you imagine the fun Jeremy Clarkson would have with a high end motor manufacturer who was silly enough to do that!
David :):lol:
It is unlikely that a motor manufacturer would supply Clarkson with a car with defective tyres. I would be prepared to bet 5p of my own cash that cars for evaluation are fitted with higher grip (poorer wear) tyres than standard since that is the easiest way to make a car look good and do a quick lap in the hands of Stig.
Inside many cars there are some massive economies though. It does require great cleverness for a manufacturer to cut manufacturing cost without it being spotted by the customer.
Cars are the same cost wise BTW, I happen to know that a very highly rated executive sports saloon retailing around £40,000 costs 4500-5000 Euro to make, depending on options.
I remember when Lotus were trying to sell their active technology in Detroit that a purchasing guy told him they paid $1 per damper from the OEM!
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 13:47
Many long standing engineers refuse to accept, or at least severely doubt, that subtle changes like this (wiring, terminals, caps-n-coils) can make any audible difference at all. My possible argument is that "better" components can actually bring the crossover to theoretically perfect setup perhaps?
Hi David
If such engineers still exist in audio industry perhaps they should consider another career path.
David:doh:
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 15:57
[QUOTE=f1eng;388445]I have just read this thread. It took a long time. I am not knowledgeable about Tannoy speakers (but have enjoyed them the twice I have listened) so no comments here.
Secondly when I worked for Garrard in the 1970s manufacturing cost being 10% of retail was a fact.
Hi Frank
One additional point here is that the business model was somewhat different in the 1970's. Manufacturers, including top flight ones such as Garrard, SME, Shure, Goldring Lenco, Rogers, Kef and Wharfedale all distributed to retail stores through the wholesale channel so there was an extra margin involved. Companies such as Harris & Russell and Brown Brothers distributed high end hi fi equipment in those days. Towards the middle and late 1970's multiples like Comet (RIP) and Laskys with greater purchasing power entered the fray along with a myriad of small local specialist stores. Distribution then switched from Manufacturer to Wholesaler to Retailer to Manufacturer direct to Retailer. The reason for this was of course as always pecuniary - better margins for all concerned.
So very different times
David :);)
Good point David.
It was very different then. Garrard were very proud of their engineering and looked for clever effective but, where possible, inexpensive to manufacture solutions.
Nowadays people seem to make a virtue of the astonishingly expensive solutions chosen, even when there is no need...
Mind you the strobe markings on the 401 were cut with a gear hobbing machine - somewhat overkill but nice looking.
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 16:59
Good point David.
It was very different then. Garrard were very proud of their engineering and looked for clever effective but, where possible, inexpensive to manufacture solutions.
Nowadays people seem to make a virtue of the astonishingly expensive solutions chosen, even when there is no need...
Mind you the strobe markings on the 401 were cut with a gear hobbing machine - somewhat overkill but nice looking.
Hi Harry
How many modern pieces of hi fi will be treasureed in the way that vinage Garrards are today in 50 years time? (answers on a postcard:lol:)
I owned a Garrard 401 in 1970 purchased through the wholesale channel (Harris & Russell in Reading) and regret ever selling it. It is an ambition to get a nice late oil bearing 301 (with gear cut strobe markings) for my vintage system. Perhaps 2013 will be the year. :D
David ;)
David
The thing I remember, and this was right at the end, was that Garrard were always helpful and happy to send out spares at not too silly money. The only real problem I have with their early 70's stuff is that by this time, Dual had raced ahead with regard to precision auto decks. Kind of makes my well-working (in fairness) AP76 seem a bit flimsy and agricultural, especially when the trip pawls seize up :lol:
Having said that, I have plans for yet another Garrard auto deck :rolleyes:
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 17:05
The thing I remember, and this was right at the end, was that Garrard were always helpful and happy to send out spares at not too silly money. The only real problem I have with their early 70's stuff is that by this time, Dual had raced ahead with regard to precision auto decks. Kind of makes my well-working (in fairness) AP76 seem a bit flimsy and agricultural, especially when the trip pawls seize up :lol:
Having said that, I have plans for yet another Garrard auto deck :rolleyes:
Hi Dave
Dual another blast from the past. I remember being very proud to own a Dual 1219 auto deck in about 1969. It put the cheap Garrards to shame in terms of design and finish but not their better stuff.
I find it interesting that you choose to use very old equipment of modest quality. I regularly have musical evenings with a pal whose kit is of truly horrible 1980's origin (Amstrad or some such brand) and we have delightful evenings just listening to and discussing great music and the system doesn't matter a tinker's damn.
David :)
I can't afford expensive gear any more, so don't actively look there for personal use. The systems I have a huge fun, keep me sane (just) and are actually still quite good.
The Micro Seiki CD player though, is hardly "modest quality," in fairly recent times seeing off many sub £3000 players. I found I was reacting negatively to the balanced-phono chunky-silver cable mark Grant made for me (sorry Mark) and fished out some twin-lapped mic cables sold by RS around 20 years ago, terminated the ends and found the sonics much better and less "spot-lit." The Dual 701 is a great precision vintage auto deck IMO and with the right cartridges and extra mat, makes for a highly quiet and stable musical platform for vinyl - you cannot beat their auto mechs either :) The Crown "D" amps were inherited (I sold part of this system to the original owner), they compare VERY favourably with the best Glenn has to offer (once the preamp had a pair of updated op-amps and four 1uF caps replaced and we spent hours listeng at hifi dave's to confirm - he has a complete set of his own now) and I'm delighted with the quality of the sonics which were steered away from in the late 70's because of the valve revival (all rose tinted and pretty horrid with hindsight). The BC2's have toned right down with the old but still good Cable Talk Excel 4 I recently purchased and still have a great midrange/lower treble. We sold loads of this speaker cable and used it for many of our non Linn or Naim dems (think of a small-scale VDH The Wind as Marco uses - no treble hash or "splatter"). The office setup has a great vintage Denon 1520 CD player as transport (Sony ES linear motor drive sled mech I think), which inverts the phase on the audio output, making the result a bit wishy-washy, a tricked up QED Digit which comes to life once the output stage is separately powered and the nasty output caps are replaced with "better," a collection of turntables you wouldn't even look twice at, my beloved Croft preamp (equivalent to an R now)an ex-editing suite HH power amp which still delivers the goods after twenty years 24/7 (I'm planning on getting "my" Quad 33/303 back at some point) and a pair of again, ex editing suite Rogers "BBC" LS5/9's I'm custodian of.
The thing is, the whole "HiFi" thing is really a hiding to nothing once you've gone so far. Rich people can go into the likes of KJ West One and indulge themselves in the latest OTT products imported by Absolute Sounds, but in reality, are they actually buying a *better* sound? BIGGER certainly and beautifully presentated in most cases, but BETTER?????
Had I the funds and the room, I'd be seriously looking at some SP Acoustics monitors I think. Active and passive, the drivers are amongst the best out there and the mid driver is run wide, leaving the bass units for the bass only (no mid smear that afflicts so many three ways) and the tweeter handles only VERY high frequencies (I'm assuming the dispersion is ok done like this...). A pal with ears I trust implicitly raytes them as the best medium sized monitors he's ever heard. The fact that the designer was responsible for the original AE1 and its family and that they're based between AVI and ATC in that region of Gloucestershire really does pique my interest :)
Sorry to go on, but good cheap and/or old gear can still cut the mustard I think, as long as it's correctly matched and allowances made for more limited capabilities sometimes.....
tannoyman
01-12-2012, 17:41
Hi Dave
I obviously got it wrong when you spoke of early Garrards. Please accept my apologies
David:)
Dave's comment about cheap and /or old kit still cutting it is bang on IME.
I recently set up a frien's TD150 which he's owned from new. It was set up with a Quad 34/304 (recently serviced and upgraded) amps played into Heybrook HB2 loudspeakers. It sounded fab. That whole lot together cost less than my current MC cartridge which made me i) feel pretty ashamed and ii) was capable of surprising resolution, and more importantly emotion.
My upgrading days are over now (please do quote me on that!) so any replacements in future will be older or refurbished kit. I'm very pleased with the 1970 401 I've refurbished this year (complete strip down and rebuild) and having fitted it with a Hadcock full cryo arm and an excellent vintage Shure m95He it's making great music with the Tannoys. I use that deck more than the Gyro these days.
tannoyman
02-12-2012, 10:58
Dave's comment about cheap and /or old kit still cutting it is bang on IME.
I recently set up a frien's TD150 which he's owned from new. It was set up with a Quad 34/304 (recently serviced and upgraded) amps played into Heybrook HB2 loudspeakers. It sounded fab. That whole lot together cost less than my current MC cartridge which made me i) feel pretty ashamed and ii) was capable of surprising resolution, and more importantly emotion.
My upgrading days are over now (please do quote me on that!) so any replacements in future will be older or refurbished kit. I'm very pleased with the 1970 401 I've refurbished this year (complete strip down and rebuild) and having fitted it with a Hadcock full cryo arm and an excellent vintage Shure m95He it's making great music with the Tannoys. I use that deck more than the Gyro these days.
Hi Paul
I totally agree. I recently bought a Quad 33/303 and a Quad 66 CD player and am taking two of them to Huntingdon tomorrow for same day servicing. Contrast that with major Japanese manufacturers where some machines from post 2000 can no longer be repaired because parts are no longer available. That of course is the major caveat with vintage gear. Even if you are handy at repairing yourself if you cannot get parts you're buggered. This point needs to be taken into account when calculating the correct price to pay. The servicing availibility is the reason why vintage Quad kit still sells for very good money
I would love to buy a nice Sony SCD 777es Universal player but I am a bit wary because I understand that you can no londer get replacement lasers for them. I am still very tempted, but they sell for £800 - £1000 so if it went wrong I could be left with a very expensive door stop
David :scratch:
There's plenty on the Quad 66 CD player to turn it into a really nice player. I used to use mine (one I "borrowed for a few months from work for use as transport) with a Croft made 4A rated mains filter, which helped no end on so many of these 1541 based machines. Apparently, replacing the film caps around the DAC chip with higher value types (as Marantz did on mostl of their machines at the time) helps too, although Quad used SMD types. A clock upgrade probably wouldn't go amiss either, although how much life is left in the laser is obviously another matter...
The Linn LP12 owes its very existance to the TD150 layout, and it's amazing how close all the dimensions are too ;) Obviously the RD11/LP12 when first launched was basically a "blue-printed" TD150, but conversely, some careful setting up and re-plinthing on a TD150 can work wonders for the sonics. I don't mind the crude old arms fitted either, since there are many good sounding cartridges that would work in these nowadays after a careful fettling...
Reid Malenfant
02-12-2012, 20:31
I have just read this thread. It took a long time. I am not knowledgeable about Tannoy speakers (but have enjoyed them the twice I have listened) so no comments here.
I have a couple of points to make though.
Firstly several posters mentioned the superiority of a single 15" unit over multiple small units "because it hardly moves". Well clearly that depends! 4 8" units will move -less- than a single 15", and have 4 motors. I am not disputing what is heard, I haven't compared a speaker with a 15" bass unit with one with 4 8" units... Just sayin'
Getting it back to the speakers :eyebrows:
I think the point is here is that to get some kind of realistic sound level you do need to move a lot of air, or at least be capable of doing it when called for!
The thing with the Tannoys is the coaxial tweeter that effectively makes all the sound radiate from one place, that single driver. Generally most people will think of the 15" unit as optimum simply because it can move the most air.
Personally I'd go for a Tannoy that one of the members on here owns (can't think of his name right now) that uses a smaller 10" coaxial driver & a pair of 12" drivers for filling in the bass. At bass frequencies sound is omnidirectional, so you'd never notice it wasn't eminating from a single driver anyway. I'm also sure that a 10" driver would do a better job in the midrange (less distortion) up to the crossover frequency of the tweeter than a 15" would, simply because it'd act as more of a piston.
Give the bass over to those 12" drivers at less than 150Hz say & I'm sure it'd be something to behold :D
Tannoy appear to be going back to a similar setup with their modern speakers, a smaller coaxial but paired with a 15 or maybe even an 18" bass unit in there largest speakers.
It makes total sense :)
tannoyman
02-12-2012, 20:40
Getting it back to the speakers :eyebrows:
I think the point is here is that to get some kind of realistic sound level you do need to move a lot of air, or at least be capable of doing it when called for!
The thing with the Tannoys is the coaxial tweeter that effectively makes all the sound radiate from one place, that single driver. Generally most people will think of the 15" unit as optimum simply because it can move the most air.
Personally I'd go for a Tannoy that one of the members on here owns (can't think of his name right now) that uses a smaller 10" coaxial driver & a pair of 12" drivers for filling in the bass. At bass frequencies sound is omnidirectional, so you'd never notice it wasn't eminating from a single driver anyway. I'm also sure that a 10" driver would do a better job in the midrange (less distortion) up to the crossover frequency of the tweeter than a 15" would, simply because it'd act as more of a piston.
Give the bass over to those 12" drivers at less than 150Hz say & I'm sure it'd be something to behold
Tannoy appear to be going back to a similar setup with their modern speakers, a smaller coaxial but paired with a 15 or maybe even an 18" bass unit in there largest speakers.
It makes total sense :)
Hi Mark
I think that big drivers, particularly when horn loaded, seem to be able to move the air in the room effortlessly. It's a bit like driving a 4.2 litre Jag on the motorway at 70mph. It's working well within its capabilities and it shows. A small driver trying to do the same thing is going like stink and that extra effort is reflected in the quality of the output which by comparison sounds strained.
Kind regards
David
Reid Malenfant
02-12-2012, 20:50
What you say is true if you are asking a smaller driver to do deep bass, if it isn't & other drivers are then there is no strain...
There is also less intermodulation distortion as the smaller driver doing say 150Hz upwards isn't flapping about like a single one would which was reproducing 30Hz. So you won't be modulating your midrange with a 30Hz signal ;)
Also as I pointed out, the smaller driver given the same diaphram stiffness/thickness of material will act as a piston to a higher frequency.
Just thought of another one. A smaller diaphram is also omnidirectional to a higher frequency as well.
Win, win, win situation using a smaller driver from say 150Hz upwards & a seperate bass or bass drivers :cool:
Mmm... Don't forget the huge value to some of the 'point source' effect and the superb imaging abilities and coherence, associated with that, provided by Tannoy DCs ;)
Whenever I listen to 'normal' speakers now, with multiple drive units for reproducing different parts of the frequency range, the sound is rather 'disjointed' in comparison, as I find myself listening to bass, midrange and treble 'firing' at me almost as separate entities, rather than, tonally, blending seamlessly and unobtrusively into the musical mix, as one gets with the best Tannoy DCs.
Aside from their other enviable traits, the above reason would be enough to make it very difficult for me to want to change from my Monitor Golds to speakers with multiple drive units, no matter how good those drive units were at what they did, individually or collectively... :)
Marco.
tannoyman
03-12-2012, 10:52
Mmm... Don't forget the huge value to some of the 'point source' effect and the superb imaging abilities and coherence, associated with that, provided by Tannoy DCs ;)
Whenever I listen to 'normal' speakers now, with multiple drive units for reproducing different parts of the frequency range, the sound is rather 'disjointed' in comparison, as I find myself listening to bass, midrange and treble 'firing' at me as almost separate entities, rather than, tonally, blending seamlessly and unobtrusively into the musical mix, as one gets with the best Tannoy DCs.
Marco.
Hi Marco
That's spot on.
I had a friend round (my wife very disparagingly says, to "play") on Friday evening and his comment was that the Tannoys present the recorded ambience whatever it is, in a totally coherent and believable way. Like you, I think this is down to the overall coherence of the sound. Big things sound big and small things sound small and you get a real sense of the space around instruments and voices on well recorded material. Many smaller speakers do not seem to have the ability to differentiate scale in this way. Everything sounds either small or overblown, usually the former. I am probably luckier than many because my music room is large and the speakers are able to sit 17' apart which makes a huge difference in the imaging department.
I find it disorientating when I listen to other peoples' systems playing recordings I know, because the Tannoys, create a totally different type of all enveloping experience. I have to adjust my listening when I go somewhere else and my visitors have to do likewise when they come to me.
Still it all contributes to making audio the fascinating hobby that it is.
David:):cool:
Hi David,
I had a friend round (my wife very disparagingly says, to "play") on Friday evening and his comment was that the Tannoys present the recorded ambience whatever it is, in a totally coherent and believable way.
Absolutely. Big Tannoy DCs do that better than any other speakers I've heard. They're not perfect, no speakers are, but if you value the effect you've described, and for me it's fundamental in creating an illusion that one is listening to 'real' instruments and voices, as opposed to an unconvincing facsimile of such, then nothing else will do!
Like you, I think this is down to the overall coherence of the sound. Big things sound big and small things sound small and you get a real sense of the space around instruments and voices on well recorded material. Many smaller speakers do not seem to have the ability to differentiate scale in this way.
Yup! I've heard speakers with smaller drive units, augmented by huge sub-woofers, tall floor-standers, ported with multiple arrays of 6 or 8" drivers, huge floor-standers with twin 12" bass units, and all sorts, but NONE create the sense of effortless scale (and scale is a very different thing from low-frequency bass extension), as ONE 15" driver (per side) in huge enclosures, such as with your Westies, or to a lesser degree, my Lockwoods.
When listening to live rock music, and also to live classical performances, when an orchestral movement hits a full cresendo; the sense of 'physicality' and SCALE is enormous: the sheer 'thrust' from the sound, which travels through your body, is monumental in its intensity (if you like to sit near the front of the concert hall, like I do!) - and big Tannoy DCs replicate that effect better than any other speakers I've heard, which in comparison, just play at it. To obtain maximum realism from recorded music, that effect is very important for me.
I find it disorientating when I listen to other peoples' systems playing recordings I know, because the Tannoys, create a totally different type of all enveloping experience. I have to adjust my listening when I go somewhere else and my visitors have to do likewise when they come to me.
Yup - ditto! But when I do, if the system is good, I usually appreciate and enjoy the different 'take' it has on reproducing recorded music. Like you say, it's simply a matter of acclimatisation.
Still it all contributes to making audio the fascinating hobby that it is.
Absolutely - it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same thing!!
Marco.
I'm not convinced that for small to medium sized rooms that subs or multiple large drivers are necessary at all to reproduce low bass effortlessly. There are difficulties with going down the multiple driver/box/subwooder route not least of which is phase accuracy and the additional intrusion into the room of multiple boxes and cables.
For my own room (about 20ft by 14ish), the single pair of 10 inch drivers deliver more than enough bass and do it effortlessly. Tom has heard what they're capable of in my room and I'm sure would agree that they probably have as much of not greater authority than his 15 inch MGs, and most poeple who've never heard the Prestige range but own or have heard the older Tannoys have said the same thing. The newer prestige range do the bass thing very well indeed. Greater power handling and good cabinet design are part of the reason.
The comments above about the single point advantages of DC's are also very true. None of the other Tannoy multilpe driver ranges (newer ones) seem to image as well as the single DC units. The however only becomes much of an issue for closer listening and nearfield listening. In a larger room I'm sure it wouldn't be as much of an issue. My previous Horning Agathon Ultimates and Lumley Lampros 300AB's were equally as convincing to my ears in a large room. Close too though (3m or less) and the Tannoy DCs win out every time for my tastes.
The Black Adder
03-12-2012, 13:16
Mmm... Don't forget the huge value to some of the 'point source' effect and the superb imaging abilities and coherence, associated with that, provided by Tannoy DCs ;)
Whenever I listen to 'normal' speakers now, with multiple drive units for reproducing different parts of the frequency range, the sound is rather 'disjointed' in comparison, as I find myself listening to bass, midrange and treble 'firing' at me almost as separate entities, rather than, tonally, blending seamlessly and unobtrusively into the musical mix, as one gets with the best Tannoy DCs.
Aside from their other enviable traits, the above reason would be enough to make it very difficult for me to want to change from my Monitor Golds to speakers with multiple drive units, no matter how good those drive units were at what they did, individually or collectively... :)
Marco.
+1 :cool:
That is the magic that you just don't get with a multi-way design. It's the most natural sound I've ever heard and yet they can 'REALLY' boogie. It's all about that single point that seems to make you want to sit down and listen.
Also, I've never found a genre of music that they don't do.. Rock, Dance, Electronica, Classical... I've thrown the lot at mine and they just don't even flinch.. They just do everything with style.. love em!
montesquieu
03-12-2012, 13:35
Personally I'd go for a Tannoy that one of the members on here owns (can't think of his name right now) that uses a smaller 10" coaxial driver & a pair of 12" drivers for filling in the bass. At bass frequencies sound is omnidirectional, so you'd never notice it wasn't eminating from a single driver anyway. I'm also sure that a 10" driver would do a better job in the midrange (less distortion) up to the crossover frequency of the tweeter than a 15" would, simply because it'd act as more of a piston.
Depends on the sort of music you listen to. One of the things I hate about multi-driver speakers is the bass (especially upper bass which you'd certainly get from a 12in driver) coming from 'below the horizon'.
I recall borrowing some mid-spec Martin Logans, which tonally were quite nice, then my wife came in and asked why the string quartet I had on had a really tall pair of violinists, but a midget cellist coming of of the bottom of the speaker unit. I had noticed this but when she put it in those terms, it became a bit of a joke. Probably less of an issue with rock music, perhaps but for classical chamber music, MLs just don't cut it.
I think the sort of multi-driver arrangement proposed here would have similar problems, I've certainly heard the same from Open Baffle designs where the bass frequencies are tipped down towards the floor. Though it may not be impossible to limit these issues with a good cabinet design.
On your post Paul, I do agree the bass from the 10in driver low and solid - possibly less of a drop-of than with my 15in GRFs - though that's a cabinet issue, with the GRFs you gain mid-horn punch but trade it for a steeper than normal drop-off in low bass response below. Cabinets like the Lockwood Major would definitely get more bass out of 15in cones than a 10in. (As do the cheapo Lancaster cabs though 'more' bass is not necessarily 'better' with such a poor cabinet design).
Overall I feel the smaller Tannoys are very good but I prefer the big ones as they just have a greater sense of scale and authority. The tricky thing to get right with the big vintage drivers is the crossovers, I've found the originals to be a bit ragged around the crossover frequency of 1khz, a very tricky zone, a combination of using premium components and enough current from a good PP design gets rid of all that.
tannoyman
03-12-2012, 13:38
[QUOTE=Reffc;389443]I'm not convinced that for small to medium sized rooms that subs or multiple large drivers are necessary at all to reproduce low bass effortlessly. There are difficulties with going down the multiple driver/box/subwooder route not least of which is phase accuracy and the additional intrusion into the room of multiple boxes and cables.
Hi Paul
I agree. Big drivers in small rooms are not a good idea. There is a need to optimise and if considering speakers for the smaller room a good 10"DC is likely to win out every time. The Kensington which I have heard many times is a good example. It is almost impossible to control the bass output from large units in too small a space. Some would say you should treat the room. I am not a fan of room treatment which in my experience is a blunt instrument. You intend to lose not only things you don't want to lose but also things you do not. Some people may benefit if they have a particularly bad room but otherwise I would avoid it. I may be in a minority on this and in any event I am fortunate that my room is very benign sonically.
There was an interesting demo at Whittlebury with identical kit in treated and untreated rooms. I preferred the untreated room because the sound had life and energy. In the treated room, to my ears the sound was dull and lifeless.
David:):)
montesquieu
03-12-2012, 13:41
[QUOTE=Reffc;389443]
I agree. Big drivers in small rooms are not a good idea. There is a need to optimise and if considering speakers for the smaller room a good 10"DC is likely to win out every time. The Kensington which I have heard many times is a good example. It is almost impossible to control the bass output from large units in too small a space. Some would say you should treat the room. I am not a fan of room treatment which in my experience is a blunt instrument. You intend to lose not only things you don't want to lose but also things you do. Some people may benefit if they have a particularly bad room but otherwise I would avoid it. I may be in a minority on this.
The big drivers certainly like a big room, on moving from a 3.5m x 5m house (firing length-wise) to 5.5m x 7.5m room, the performance of the GRFs improved significantly.
The Black Adder
03-12-2012, 13:44
agreed.. I feel the 12" MG'S in my room are just on the cusp for the firing area, so quite perfect I feel. Although I do have some standing waves but hey... lol
Did you get your crossovers sorted, Tom?
tannoyman
03-12-2012, 13:48
On your post Paul, I do agree the bass from the 10in driver low and solid - possibly less of a drop-of than with my 15in GRFs - though that's a cabinet issue, with the GRFs you gain mid-horn punch but trade it for a steeper than normal drop-off in low bass response below. Cabinets like the Lockwood Major would definitely get more bass out of 15in cones than a 10in. (As do the cheapo Lancaster cabs though 'more' bass is not necessarily 'better' with such a poor cabinet design).
Overall I feel the smaller Tannoys are very good but I prefer the big ones as they just have a greater sense of scale and authority. The tricky thing to get right with the big vintage drivers is the crossovers, I've found the originals to be a bit ragged around the crossover frequency of 1khz, a very tricky zone, a combination of using premium components and enough current from a good PP design gets rid of all that.[/QUOTE]
Hi Tom
I agree. The other point to bear in mind with the large DC units is high efficiency. One of the reasons for effortless sound is that the amplifier does not have to have an arm-wrestling contest with the speaker to get it to comply. Efficient speakers like the DC's will produce the tiniest nuance of sound with the same ease that they will produce the triple forte of full orchestra, organ and chorus or rock band. This is also is also reflected in way that it moves between those two extremes - the dynamics.
David :):)
I think we're all pretty much in agreement with this. For (most) uk medium sized rooms, the 10 inch is all you'd likely ever need as IME (having owned larger drivers) controlling larger units becomes the main problem, they can dominate and the room then needs to be heavily treated. In a large room (such as Toms and most likely yours too David) the larger units just seem to work better. The 10 inchers are also very sensitive, so they don't require very much amp power either. A few watts gets them going. What large and small units need though to control the bass is a good amount of current on tap and (preferably) lowish output impedance with decent damping factors. I say preferably because I have heard well controlled bass from an 8w SET amp on my Tannoys but where, very oddly, the main problems occurred in the mid range.
I did speak to Lockwoods about their 15 inch HPD units mounted in the Major cabs but decided that it would have been overkill for my room, which is not a heavily treated studio (which can get away with being quite small) but decided after hearing the 10 inchers, they were ideal size wise. The thing that has opened my eyes, and I'm not sure if it is the same with the vintage Tannoys, is that amp matching is pretty critical. Not any amp will do and you have to try a fair few before finding one that will suit the Turnberrys in your own particular listening room. Folk who say that any well designed amp will sound the same may have a point on paper, but the reality of testing many very respectable amps is that each gave different results, some markedly so. The Turnberrys demand very refined amps to get the best from them.
walpurgis
03-12-2012, 23:28
I have a small, but well damped listening room and use 8", 10" and 12" Tannoys with no problems, even the bass extension seems natural.
I think some people miss the point completely with Tannoys. I'm well aware of the treble horn colourations and the sometimes 'woody' tone from the bass regions, they don't bother me, as you just tune into the sound. What no other speaker does as well that I've ever heard, is to produce that pinpoint positioning and the degree of image depth through the midrange. You really feel that you're hearing through the speaker rather than to the speaker!
Reid Malenfant
03-12-2012, 23:54
I think some people miss the point completely with Tannoys. I'm well aware of the treble horn colourations and the sometimes 'woody' tone from the bass regions, they don't bother me, as you just tune into the sound. What no other speaker does as well that I've ever heard, is to produce that pinpoint positioning and the degree of image depth through the midrange. You really feel that you're hearing through the speaker rather than to the speaker!
I agree with that entirely, though they'd be even better if they were 'coincident' rather than just coaxial :)
The different distances between the two voicecoils & the listener prevents this however ;) If you do some research you'll see that Tannoy did a lot of R&D into delay lines to attempt to get round this.
They are still awesome drivers though, designed on sound (:eyebrows:) principles, you can't fault the engineering & what it brings to proceedings music wise :D
My Tannoy Turnberry's are very well suited to my medium sized 5m x 4m lounge, and i really enjoy their lovely musical bass quality. What nobody has mentioned yet is how ideal Tannoy dual concentrics are when watching movies. I no longer use a centre speaker, just my Turnberry's, and vocals seem to fill the screen of my pioneer 508xd plasma tv. I also find i no longer need a sub, because the Turnberry's provide plenty of low end rumble, making them an ideal speaker for music and movies.
Hi Paul,
I think we're all pretty much in agreement with this. For (most) uk medium sized rooms, the 10 inch is all you'd likely ever need as IME (having owned larger drivers) controlling larger units becomes the main problem, they can dominate and the room then needs to be heavily treated.
That isn't my experience of using 15" Tannoys in Lockwood cabinets. See below, later. I just use them in an ordinary (pretty small) room, and they sound fantastic! 10" drivers just sound 'small' and lacking in heft, in comparison.
I did speak to Lockwoods about their 15 inch HPD units mounted in the Major cabs but decided that it would have been overkill for my room...
That's a shame, not that your Turnberrys aren't great, but I'm almost certain that the Lockies (with 15" HPDs) wouldn't have been overkill in your room, as they aren't in mine - and my room's smaller than yours! ;)
The Lockwoods work best right up against the rear wall, and you can put them into corners too, with no bass boom whatsoever; in fact they will boom if you place them out into the room - it's the way that the cabinets are designed.
Lockwoods (with 15" Monitor Golds) in situ, chez-moi (not a big room, by any means. Incidentally, behind the white door is a cupboard, it's not the entrance to the room):
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5181/lockwoodmajors027.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/lockwoodmajors027.jpg/)
...yet, although the room is small, they sound stunning in there. My listening position is only about 3m away from the speakers!
And in situ at the Wigwam show at Scalford Hall, as part of the AoS system:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6008/scalford2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/scalford2.jpg/)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2563/scalfordhall2010.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/scalfordhall2010.jpg/)
That was a big room, and even in there, they sounded best placed in a similar position as I use them in at home... Trust me, you must try a pair some time, Paul, as I guarantee that you'll love them and they'll work just fine in your room. You don't have to restrict yourself to 10" drivers :)
Marco.
I agree with that entirely, though they'd be even better if they were 'coincident' rather than just coaxial :)
The different distances between the two voicecoils & the listener prevents this however ;) If you do some research you'll see that Tannoy did a lot of R&D into delay lines to attempt to get round this.
They are still awesome drivers though, designed on sound (:eyebrows:) principles, you can't fault the engineering & what it brings to proceedings music wise :D
My previous speakers were Kef Reference 2.2's, which used the uni-q coincident drive unit, and although in theory a coincident drive unit should be better than a coaxial drive unit, in practice, and imo, the tannoy 10" driver in my Turnberry's was preferable, providing superior imaging.
walpurgis
04-12-2012, 00:31
It works the other way around too!
My little System 800 Tannoys can fill a fair sized room with a pretty authoratative sound. No shortage of welly at all.
http://i49.tinypic.com/e6si2x.jpg
And yes, that is a pair of i12 drivers on top of my Eatons if you're wondering.
southall-1998
04-12-2012, 01:06
With out a question, those 800s are good!
Hi Paul,
That isn't my experience of using 15" Tannoys in Lockwood cabinets. See below, later. I just use them in an ordinary (pretty small) room, and they sound fantastic! 10" drivers just sound 'small' and lacking in heft, in comparison.
That's a shame, not that your Turnberrys aren't great, but I'm almost certain that the Lockies (with 15" HPDs) wouldn't have been overkill in your room, as they aren't in mine - and my room's smaller than yours! ;)
The Lockwoods work best right up against the rear wall, and you can put them into corners too, with no bass boom whatsoever; in fact they will boom if you place them out into the room - it's the way that the cabinets are designed.
Lockwoods (with 15" Monitor Golds) in situ, chez-moi (not a big room, by any means. Incidentally, behind the white door is a cupboard, it's not the entrance to the room):
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5181/lockwoodmajors027.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/lockwoodmajors027.jpg/)
...yet, although the room is small, they sound stunning in there. My listening position is only about 3m away from the speakers!
And in situ at the Wigwam show at Scalford Hall, as part of the AoS system:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6008/scalford2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/scalford2.jpg/)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2563/scalfordhall2010.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/scalfordhall2010.jpg/)
That was a big room, and even in there, they sounded best placed in a similar position as I use them in at home... Trust me, you must try a pair some time, Paul, as I guarantee that you'll love them and they'll work just fine in your room. You don't have to restrict yourself to 10" drivers :)
Marco.
Interesting Marco. The Lockwoods are very large cabs and as we already have a lot of furniture in the room, it would have been a tight squeeze to get them in. My experiences previously were with a pair of Horning Agathon Ultimates in which each speaker housed two 12 inch drivers. I could never quite tame the boom which is also down to the room dimensions and layout, although since then I have added some room treatment which has improved things.
I'm pretty happy with the Turnberrys TBH. They're very domestically acceptable and simply get better the more running in they've had. The addition of the stands has made a big improvement.
No worries, matey.
I totally get the big cablinets/lots of furniture thing (domestic acceptability), and that's an important consideration, but in terms of allowing the Lockwoods to work, sonically, I'm pretty sure that you'd have no problems.
The only issue might be if you live in a modern house, with square-ish rooms and thin walls, but if you have nice solid walls and an irregular-shaped room (to break up standing waves), like mine (I also have oak beams helping, too), then you should be fine.
Just a thought if you're ever tempted to try some of the 'big boy' Tannoys! :)
Marco.
wiicrackpot
04-12-2012, 11:05
Just a thought if you're ever tempted to try some of the 'big boy' Tannoys! :)
Marco.
Wid'yee stoap it Marco San !!, ya forever trying tae disturb others domestic harmony aren't ya. :steam::D
Joking apart you are very lucky you've got a man cave for you hobby, something many of us don't/never will have the luxury of, :(
one thing amazes me is how some on here and other fora's have such beautiful rooms that lets their system breath,
great thread been enjoying it all the way through. :cool:
Lol... I can assure you that if we ever move house, the No1 priority would be finding one with the right room to put the system into!
Fortunately, I'm lucky to have a wife who would agree... ;)
Aside from the Lockwoods, upstairs in the 'man cave', as you call it, we've also got a pair of Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors, like this:
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8438/celestion66s.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/celestion66s.jpg/)
(Picture taken from the AoS room at Scalford Hall two years ago)
...downstairs in the lounge (fed from the system upstairs), so with simply a quick change of speaker cable, we also have superb sound in the lounge, and the Celestions offer an nice alternative, musically, to the Tannoys.
Marco.
It's amazing you know, when I was changing gear back in the 80's, I never considered some Ditton 66's, despite the fact that they'd have gone perfectly in my small bedroom/listening room. Maybe I thought they were good but out-classed, I don't know, or more likely, the fact that so few came up for sale back then. We did have some 551's and 661's traded in, and they sounded really, really nice, but the cabs and grilles were tatty on both and the fact that Celestion had only just run out of tweeter dome assemblies sort of put me off :(
I always liked the Ditton 66's. A cracking set of 'speakers by any standards and well worth searching out used.
My listening room is being slowly cleared now and a new carpet recently down has helped things quite a bit:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/_MG_5965.jpg
For scale, the acoustic panels behind the speaks are a little larger than Lockwood major cabs in frontal area! (also that screen for reference is a 42 inch screen). These are sometimes lifted out during music sessions and one placed in front of the flat screen, the other on the RHS mid way to the listener
tannoyman
04-12-2012, 16:13
Hi Paul
What a very nice room. The Tannoys fit beautifully in terms of size.
Am I right in thinking that the speaker axes cross in front of the listening position? If so does that help the imaging?
David:)
Hi David
thank you. Yes, at present the speakers cross just in front of the listener as I'm still experimenting with positioning. I sometimes turn them so they only have about 5 degrees of toe-in and depending on what's playing they can sound pretty good that way too. They're roughly 8 feet apart at the minute. I'm selling the sofa in the picture and smaller fabric sofa's are coming soon (yup...I'm changing furniture to help with room acoustics!) following which I'd like to try a more near-field listening position within 2m of the speaker plane as this is where the sound stage seems to open up into an astonishingly believable image.
Nice, Paul. I'm sure it sounds fab! :)
Have you ever thought of putting your gear where the TV is, and the TV where your kit is now, but angled out into the room slightly, so you could see it from your sitting position?
That way, you'd remove the negative effect the TV (and the other 'gubbins') there is having on imaging (and the sound in general), and you'd also be able to shorten your speaker cable substantially, which would also improve the sound, and give you even better results than you're getting at the moment.
Ideally, you don't want anything sitting in between the speakers, but if you had your kit (and racks) there, you could put them behind the front plane of the speakers, so that imaging wouldn't be affected. I'm sure that the cumulative effect of doing that would be sonically beneficial - dunno, though, about domestically! ;)
Just a thought....
Marco.
hifi_dave
04-12-2012, 17:04
Kit between the speakers has a huge negative affect on the sound. You need to move the speakers forward, or the gear back. Another thing I have often done when installing a system, is to drape a blanket or duvet over the equipment/TV. Might look crap but sounds a whole heap better.
Kit between the speakers has a huge negative affect on the sound. You need to move the speakers forward, or the gear back.
Yup - you're right.
If I were in Paul's position, if he didn't want to go to the bother of what I suggested before, I'd still move the 'TV stand' as far back as it will go, and the speakers forward, if necessary, so that the end result is that the 'TV stand' is as far out of harm's way as possible. Doing that will defo improve the sound of the system :)
Marco.
I agree with both Dave and yourself Marco. During listening, the speakers do get moved out a little and I will be pushing the central clutter back by at least 10 inches once I'm properly on my feet (difficult to do on crutches).
I did think about shifting the TV and moving all the other gear but it would have upset the way the room layout worked a bit too much and would have messed up the surround sound (not the end of the word as that can be re-set).
However, with an acoustic panel at the front to damp unwanted reflections plus the speakers moved out a tad, I can assure you that it sounds fab.
Living rooms have to remain living rooms for the rest of family and my good lady wife wasn't keen to have things swapped about, so I've made the best of things. Its pretty typical of many living room set ups I think and despite the drawbacks does sound fab! Anyone happening to be down this way is more than welcome to pop in for a listen.
Kit between the speakers has a huge negative affect on the sound. You need to move the speakers forward, or the gear back. Another thing I have often done when installing a system, is to drape a blanket or duvet over the equipment/TV. Might look crap but sounds a whole heap better.
Funnily enough Dave we have a very heavy chenille blanket for this very purpose! It makes a huge (positive) difference when this is draped over that big slab of a TV, but as mentioned above, I sometimes place one of the acoustic panels in between which works wonders too. We have (out of shot) a very heavy lined set of chenille curtains closing off the room from it's open plan adjacent room to the rear and when closed, that also helps. Lost of little tricks like that are worthwhile in a living room environment IMHO.
I agree with both Dave and yourself Marco. During listening, the speakers do get moved out a little and I will be pushing the central clutter back by at least 10 inches once I'm properly on my feet (difficult to do on crutches).
Hope you're coping well, Paul, and on the full road to recovery!
Living rooms have to remain living rooms for the rest of family and my good lady wife wasn't keen to have things swapped about, so I've made the best of things.
Totally agree, mate. Enjoy - I don't doubt you've got a good sound going on :)
Marco.
Tried another few amps recently: Berning OTL thingymajig and an Art Audio Quntet. The Art was lovely with the Tannoys. I Think it was fitted with KT77's. Very open and clean sounding but lacked a little grunt (its only 15w/ch which isn't enough really). The Berning was more SS sounding, a little grainy but quite punchy (70w). TBH, I preferred the balance of the Linear Audio IA30 which has been hooked up (review purposes) for the past week or too. In fact my stand in amp (ION Obelisk) hasn't had an airing in a few weeks!
Turnberrys are well run in and now sounding far more coherent, smooth and above all believable and refined. Something they weren't straight out of the box.
Looks like the 845 has left Italy and will be in the UK next week so with a following wind may have it for next weekend, else it'll be the following Monday or Tuesday. It's going to need a few of us to heft its 80lbs bulk into place due to the physio's instructions to not shift anything heavy. Should also be able to turn the heating down a few degrees as this thing dissipates 600w!
Now with just 450 miles to go until it reaches its final destination is this:
http://www.jordanacoustics.co.uk/php/resources/images/648249135.jpg
80 lbs of Italian muscle amp.
Report on union with Tannoys to follow :barrel:
Reid Malenfant
14-12-2012, 22:58
80 lbs of Italian muscle amp.
Looks like a whole lot of that is taken up by the huge toroidal transformer :D
montesquieu
15-12-2012, 00:05
10kg more than the Unison Research S8 845SET I had.
(which was pants with the Tannoys, I have to say).
What's this pounds pish all about? My Copper amp weighs 45kg, so where does that sit in the 'fatty' stakes? :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Black Adder
15-12-2012, 08:46
What's this pounds pish all about? My Copper amp weighs 45kg, so where does that sit in the 'fatty' stakes? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Too Phat mate...! .
Lol.... I make it just under 100 pounds - defo into the 'chunky' territory! :eyebrows:
Marco.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_5998_zps4641b445.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6000_zpsdc589916.jpg
It works.
hifi_dave
18-12-2012, 21:18
Always a bonus.
The Black Adder
19-12-2012, 17:20
aaaz it sounz?
Always a bonus.
Yes, I find that, too! Come on, Paul - how does it sound? :exactly:
Marco.
Ow zit saaaand den?
Pretty damned impressive.
Massive headroom, lovely tonal balance which most surprisingly is very neutral
Lovers of rose-tinted lush sounding 300B SE amps need not apply. This sounds nothing like any 300B or 2A3 amp I've ever heard.
Those giant triodes and the huge over sized trannies (they need to be for SE amps), or rather the way they are wound seem to result in one of the most neutral but powerful sounding valve amps I've heard. It has real authority and very powerful, well controlled bass. Treble detail is a delight, and it extends pretty high. It's ever so slightly recessed in the mids but then again I have been listening to an EL34 amp for several weeks plus the amp does need 50 or so hours to bed in properly.
Can't really give any meaningful feedback until I've had a chance to listen properly and critically and that can't happen until I've run up a fair few hours with it. First impressions are however very good. It is a superb match with the Tannoys.
The Black Adder
20-12-2012, 08:27
Great to hear, Paul.
It certainly looks like it can do the job. Interesting to see this SE / Tannoy combo too.
How does it get through something like Megadeath, or Slip Knot, Cradle of Filth? - lol... (not expecting you to have anything like that)
Great to hear, Paul.
It certainly looks like it can do the job. Interesting to see this SE / Tannoy combo too.
How does it get through something like Megadeath, or Slip Knot, Cradle of Filth? - lol... (not expecting you to have anything like that)
LoL
Closest I have is probably Led Zep...Limp Bizkit and a few other Spinal Tap -type groups!
It rocks with the best of them no problems at all. Great attack, bass and control. Extended too but not in the usual one-note "thump thump". The texture and subtleties of bass (yes, bass can be subtle!) are very clearly show cased.
Mastersound have done a cracking job on their tranny and circuit designs. This is the only SE amp that I've tried that really works well with the Tannoys.
Couldn't resist it :doh:. A set of MINT vintage Chatsworths (12 inch MGs I think) came up at the right price and are now joining the Turnberrys.
There's only one way to find out which one is best.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................FIGHT!!!!!
We'll see how the Chatsworths compare.
Oooh, that should be interesting, Paul! :eek:
Marco.
wiicrackpot
10-01-2013, 22:24
:popcorn::popcorn:............:partytime:
Be interesting to see how the Chatsworth fare compared to the new upstarts.
The Black Adder
11-01-2013, 09:43
Thought you were happy with the Turnies? Lol... You will be after a new amp next!
Thought you were happy with the Turnies? Lol... You will be after a new amp next!
LoL
No danger of that. It was an experiment and the speakers were at the right price so I'll lose nothing if I move them on. The Turnberrys are great and there is no intention to sell those, they're fixtures here. ;)
walpurgis
12-01-2013, 22:02
You may find the Chatsworths a bit warmer in the bass, but they are a sealed cabinet, so shouldn't boom. The compression horn tweeter sounds very different to the tulip waveguide unit in the Turnbury, you may find it slightly less smooth at the top end, but to compensate, there's definitely more depth into the midrange. I find the pepperpot Tannoys such as the Chatsworth allow me to hear so deeply into the soundstage that you feel you are hearing every little thing in the detail and and positioning, with a great sense of depth. Much depends on the amplification and source obviously.
I'll be interested to hear your conclusions. I'd avoid doing A/B comparisons, that can just get frustrating, get used to the Chatsworth sound over a few days I'd say.
jandl100
13-01-2013, 08:55
:worthless:
Come on then, let's see some pix of the Chats!
.... more bloody Tannoys .... mutter, mutter .... :eyebrows:
wiicrackpot
13-01-2013, 09:28
You may find the Chatsworths a bit warmer in the bass, but they are a sealed cabinet, so shouldn't boom. The compression horn tweeter sounds very different to the tulip waveguide unit in the Turnbury, you may find it slightly less smooth at the top end, but to compensate, there's definitely more depth into the midrange. I find the pepperpot Tannoys such as the Chatsworth allow me to hear so deeply into the soundstage that you feel you are hearing every little thing in the detail and and positioning, with a great sense of depth. Much depends on the amplification and source obviously.
I'll be interested to hear your conclusions. I'd avoid doing A/B comparisons, that can just get frustrating, get used to the Chatsworth sound over a few days I'd say.
:eek: Pretty much what i found coming from SHL5's to my Chatsworths Geoff, took me a wee bit of time to attune myself to the Tannoy sound and totally love them now. :)
Looking forward to your thoughts Paul.
Pics to follow in a bit...too busy with other things right now and still haven't hooked them up! Will get round to it mid/end week.
Comparisons against the Turnberrys may be interesting but really not that important as they're different beasts. What will be interesting is to see which I prefer! There's also (maybe) another set of something completely different that are asking to be snatched up and given a good home but the jury's out and space will get a bit tight!
Most of the vintage Tannoys I've heard do have a richer mid range (newer ones seem to have better transient response and bass punch) and also manage to generate impressive scale for a handful of watts. The crossovers are all original so I'm guessing that whatever they sound like, replacing the caps with Jensens or similar (or replacing the whole crossovers) would be worth while.
I'll probably do the crossover work myself and rewire the internals with some decent cabling. Be a nice little project to keep me out of mischief.:)
Eagle owl
13-01-2013, 12:17
I'm looking forward to your review of the Chatsworth's Paul.
Geoff. :)
Many thanks for your threads on here and the Wam in respect of your Turnberry's, I'm loving mine.
Well, finally got round to trying the newly acquired big Tannoys today and was in for a few shocks. Shock nr 1 was that they weren't what I guessed (Chatsworths) after checking dimensions for each model and are in fact the much larger and much rarer Studio Mansfields. Cabinet quality is the best I've ever seen for vintage Tannoys and a cut above the domestic range. 3/4 inch ply front baffle boards, 3/4 inch very dense chip board panels finished in high quality Teak veneered with a ply base exactly as per my Turnberrys down to the metal dome feet.
Cabinets are almost factory fresh, you'd never guess that these were nigh on 40 years old! Looking round back, they have a factory inspection sticker dated 1974 and are sealed infinite baffle cabinets. very stiff heavy and strong. My guess is 70 to 80 litre enclosures, some 33 inches high, 26 across and 12.5 deep.
Drivers were the next shock. Foam surrounds are completely shot (clue #1) and they are 12 inch units (clue #2). HPDs?
Drivers duely whipped out. In mint condition all except for the surrounds which have perished. HPD 315/8 units with consecutive serial numbers. Connector quality is light years ahead of modern Tannoys; these are one very high quality set of Tannoys and a cut above the average Lancasters and Ardens in build. 85 watts power handling and rated (in these cabs) to 20 Hz for full range studio monitoring....just a real shame I can't fire them up!
Have decided to invest and get the drivers restored to as new condition, no expense spared, using the proper kits (£200 for the kit alone). Crossovers are original and continuity testing shows 100%. No leaking caps but could probably do with replacement. On the whole, in magic condition and as good as it gets for Tannoys of this vintage.
A little more digging and speaking to a few people in the recording industry later and traced a friend who used these when they came out, along with Lockwoods, for all studio monitoring. He rated the Mansfields very highly indeed, saying that they provided some of the best SQ of any 12 inch Tannoys he used. Great bass performance apparently and better treble than the MG drivers in similar cabs plus could be driven much louder.
Have decided to have someone else professionally refurbish the drivers as if I move them on, its better to have the label of a professional with a track record other than yourself.
Start of an interesting project I think. Will probably hang onto them for a little while but happy to take any interest checks from you guys if you fancy a go with these after I've had them done. Pics to be posted when I can get round to it!
Sounds like you have the hpd ones.
Pics {cough}, pics!
;)
Marco,
dantheman91
17-01-2013, 22:05
Any Pics
I'll post some pics up tomorrow :)
Photos as promised:
Main cabs in great nick and very substantially built (read "heavy!)
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6076_zps91e196ac.jpg
Grilles in lovely condition:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6075_zpsb47e5081.jpg
Typical sight when unveiling HPD's for the first time on years! It's fair to say that these will need a re-foam!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6078_zpsd35519c2.jpg
Driver details: Drivers removed and taken apart. mint condition except for foam surrounds. Carefully reassembled ready for transport and repair:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6074_zpsde5e605c.jpg
All in all, a great find and I look forward to having them singing in probably a few months time.
dantheman91
18-01-2013, 10:48
Lovely stuff nice find.
walpurgis
18-01-2013, 11:04
They look really nice Paul. I love the look of the Teak finish, beige grilled Tannoys.
A couple of points, the cones you have there are probably nicely run in. If you put new cones in the speakers won't properly 'come on song' for months, as the stiff new cones will have to break in and develop their regular break-up patterns.
I'd suggest putting new foam surrounds on the old cones. It's actually fairly easy to do on the HPD 315 as the whole cone assembly can be detached by releasing a few screws around the front suspension and rear spider, then unsoldering the lead out wires. Good new surrounds are available and if you are at all practical you should ba able to do it.
If you look here (link below) on AOS at my recent renovation of my Cheviots it will guide you through the process as the drivers are very similar. Yours are actually easier to work on as mine had glued in front suspension.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19555
Contact me if you'd like advice or an opinion on any of it.
Geoff.
Thankd Geoff
may take you up on that! Had someone offer to do these for a barter trade, as part of me thinks when moving things on it's always better to get an established dealer stamp on the repairs (can affect resale value) but I may give them a go as long as the voice coils haven't been damaged. What about shims, dust caps etc?
walpurgis
18-01-2013, 11:41
Thankd Geoff
may take you up on that! Had someone offer to do these for a barter trade, as part of me thinks when moving things on it's always better to get an established dealer stamp on the repairs (can affect resale value) but I may give them a go as long as the voice coils haven't been damaged. What about shims, dust caps etc?
You should not need to remove the dustcaps. Some people use shims, but a bit of patience and care will centre the coils without the need for them. I describe how it's done in my renovation. The whole job reasonably easy on the HPD 315.
I wouldn't worry about resale value, if they look and sound right, you'll have no bother selling them. Lets face it, you have little to lose if you'd already factored the cost of replacing the whole cone assemblies, not cheap! If you bugger it up, you can still go with the new cone option. Although, as I said there are benefits in re-using the old cones. My surrounds came from Australia via eBay and cost me a bit under £50.
You should not need to remove the dustcaps. Some people use shims, but a bit of patience and care will centre the coils without the need for them. I describe how it's done in my renovation. The whole job reasonably easy on the HPD 315.
I wouldn't worry about resale value, if they look and sound right, you'll have no bother selling them. Lets face it, you have little to lose if you'd already factored the cost of replacing the whole cone assemblies, not cheap! If you bugger it up, you can still go with the new cone option. Although, as I said there are benefits in re-using the old cones. My surrounds came from Australia via eBay and cost me a bit under £50.
Well I'll be testing the voice coils today. They should read about 10 Ohms (treble unit) according to Lockwood Audio. That'll tell me whether I can get away with just the foam surrounds. They pointed out that lifting the ribs to tuck the foam surrounds in was tricky (I see you managed it!). I think I could re-foam them no problems but would rather have them uprated for improved power handling and I'd know they were good for another 30 years.
Lockwood's charges are very reasonable, so it hinges on the voice coils condition really. Either way I won't lose anything on them. Lockwoods confirmed that they're a very rare and sought after pair so worth doing properly rather than me just re-foaming. I'll be re-wiring with high quality cabling and inserting new high quality binding posts. The cabs will get some minor facelift treatment but are so good its more a question of keeping them that way!
Tempted to go the Lockwood route only because it does help with saleability to a much wider audience. Trying to convince the wife though that we should keep them if I can find somewhere to tuck them away when not in use!
Nice one, Paul. I think they look FAB (lovely period feel to them and the cabs have a gorgeous patina) - just my sort of thing! :)
I'd also agree with Geoff's suggestion about retaining the original cones and re-foaming those, as what he's saying is spot-on. When you're finished lovingly restoring the Mansfield's, I'd expect them to give your Turnberry's more than a few surprises! ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
18-01-2013, 12:44
. When you're finished lovingly restoring the Mansfield's, I'd expect them to give your Turnberry's more than a few surprises! ;)
Marco.
I would too. Those cabs are far and away better than any Lancasters I've seen.
I would too. Those cabs are far and away better than any Lancasters I've seen.
That was the biggest surprise Tom, just how solid and heavy they are. Lockwoods said that they only occasionally see a good set of Mansfields, and that this was an exceptional find. Most have been bashed around recording studios and driven hard for a living. I'm not bothered about how long it would take to run the new cones in. It won't be much different to the Turnberrys (I expect) which from new have taken a good 100 hours or more to properly bed in. They sound better with every playing.
I may hang onto the original cones as spares providing coils are all ok. I've removed the back plate cover and the crossovers will come out next with a little guidance. Connector plug quality to the speakers is fab...way better than the plastic block connector rubbish on the new ones. In principle I could hardwire (solder) direct to the driver but for convenience, will simply clean up the original, use contact cleaner/lube, and re-assemble. Binding posts will be de-soldered, drilled out and binned. I feel some WBT ones coming in! Mind you. I like the CNC ones too, they;re well made and a fraction of the price.
walpurgis
18-01-2013, 13:08
Paul, don't worry about the power handling. The tweeter and bass voicecoils will never blow in domestic use. Even older Tannoys were designed to go devastatingly loud. I provided music to a very big party all night using my little Tannoy Eatons with a 200 watt amplifier and they didn't even break a sweat (I brought them along as my friend had melted his Harbeths, silly boy). If you take the cones out, you'll find the coils looking like new. Trust me you'll never have power handling issues, I've lived with various Tannoys for forty years and it just doesn't happen and I've been known to get them very, very loud. Upgraded terminal post is a good mod though.
I'm not knocking Lockwood, but they are out to get business and obviously will try and sell you their products. I'd love to see you have a bash at refoaming the existing cones.
Paul, don't worry about the power handling. The tweeter and bass voicecoils will never blow in domestic use. Even older Tannoys were designed to go devastatingly loud. I provided music to a very big party all night using my little Tannoy Eatons with a 200 watt amplifier and they didn't even break a sweat (I brought them along as my friend had melted his Harbeths, silly boy). If you take the cones out, you'll find the coils looking like new. Trust me you'll never have power handling issues, I've lived with various Tannoys for forty years and it just doesn't happen and I've been known to get them very, very loud. Upgraded terminal post is a good mod though.
I'm not knocking Lockwood, but they are out to get business and obviously will try and sell you their products. I'd love to see you have a bash at refoaming the existing cones.
You've made some good points Geoff...with me its mostly down to time as I have a fair few projects running at present (TT plinths/hifi furniture and a backlog of cables) so making time is always problematical when self employed! I'd love to have a crack at it because it can't be too difficult looking at what needs doing. I'll strip them down later on and examine them closely. If they look ok, I'll follow your suggestion Geoff, if not, then I may just package up and send off for repair as I'd have to buy the complete kit anyway (these had been run in their present condition at low volumes for quite a while!).
Elephantears
18-01-2013, 13:53
I've missed a lot of this thread but I'm fascinated to hear the ongoing comparison between the ancient and modern Tannoys.
Over Christmas in Ottawa I heard a pair of Tannoy Buckinghams at a great shop called the Record Centre. John, who owns the shop, is a serious Tannoyista as well as a vintage Turntable evangelist. These Buckinghams were serious beasts with three large drivers. He had sourced some of the few recone kits remaining in existence, so these were practically as new. They sounded great; all the depth and warmth I'd hope for from Tannoys, and clear as a bell.
Hi Andrew
yes, its been a fascinating journey so far and one thing is standing out. Older Tannoys = more DIY standard cabinetry (!) but better quality drivers and connectors/New prestige range = better woodwork but poorer quality connectors and cheaper made drivers. That's not to say that the new ones sound worse, because they don't, to my ears they sound better in the sense they're more dynamic, more "hifi". What the older ones seem to do better is present a more effortless sense of scale and they have a wonderful midrange on all the one's I've so far heard. I can forgive what Tannoys do badly in exchange for what they do well if properly implemented (there's no going back in fact).
Update:
Drivers removed and stripped. In remarkable shape. Voice coils (treble) measure 10.6 Ohms and 10.3 Ohms (each drive unit respectively) and LF units measure 6.4 Ohms. Very closely matched on DC anyway although I'm aware thats not an indication of tolerance for FR. Its good news though as it means that the voice coils are intact and haven't scraped/shorted out.
Crossovers measure fine on continuity and crossover panels willbe re-drilled to accept decent speaker binding posts. Cabs will benefit from a very light rub with fine emery or fine sandpaper and will have a fresh coat of lacquer or Danish oil applied. Base to be drilled for castors as these will be moved about. Should be mint examples when everything is done.
walpurgis
18-01-2013, 19:49
Your driver tolerences seem very close indeed, I've known them to vary quite widely.
If the speakers sound OK once the cone issue is sorted, I'd be cautious about any mods or 'upgrades'. As I've said before, old components do not necessarily sound bad and modern components are not necessarily better, proceed with caution.
I don't know what type of adhesive Tannoy used for the veneer, so my inclination would be not to use any kind of oil treatment as some veneer adhesives dissolve in oil.
Your driver tolerences seem very close indeed, I've known them to very quite widely.
If the speakers sound OK once the cone issue is sorted, I'd be cautious about any mods or 'upgrades'. As I've said before, old components do not necessarily sound bad and modern components are not necessarily better, proceed with caution.
I don't know what type of adhesive Tannoy used for the veneer, so my inclination would be not to use any kind of oil treatment as some veneer adhesives dissolve in oil.
Absolutely Geoff, we're agreed on that. After some thought, it'll be a gentle rub down with very fine sandpaper then Canauba and beeswax well rubbed in and buffed in layers until a nice even sheen is evident. Carnauba will provide a tough finish and help smooth out the slightly rough natural teak grain and won't harm any adhesives.
As far as the caps go, I won't mess with them design wise (although the cross overs CAN be bettered) and will keep them original spec with any changes being like for like. I want these close to standard but mint. I've designed the stands now which will sit on castors and raise the speakers around 10 inches making them quite imposing! I'll try and get as close a veneer match as possible for those and make them to fit the base plinth as an exact match profile/size wise.
walpurgis
18-01-2013, 20:30
Absolutely Geoff, we're agreed on that. After some thought, it'll be a gentle rub down with very fine sandpaper then Canauba and beeswax well rubbed in and buffed in layers until a nice even sheen is evident. Carnauba will provide a tough finish and help smooth out the slightly rough natural teak grain and won't harm any adhesives.
As far as the caps go, I won't mess with them design wise (although the cross overs CAN be bettered) and will keep them original spec with any changes being like for like. I want these close to standard but mint. I've designed the stands now which will sit on castors and raise the speakers around 10 inches making them quite imposing! I'll try and get as close a veneer match as possible for those and make them to fit the base plinth as an exact match profile/size wise.
A thought. If you're going to rub down the cabs with fine sandpaper (flourpaper), try finishing off with a light final rub over with very fine wire wool, this will help clear any grit from the grain prior to waxing. It will also remove any slight 'fluffing' of the wood surface fibres.
Exactly what I had planned Geoff. I've done several cabs and other bits of furniture this way now. It takes time and patience to get the best results!
i , think , imho , the only thing(s) wrong with tannoys' are , in their favour , the duals' are fabulous , the biggest prob , the cabs were designed yonks ago , so how about almost 5foot x 15 or 12 ish x 30 inch deep , quarter wave , with a decent attentuated tweeter running with the tannoy tweeter , not in front or behind , but just there , that as a sound i think would impress
Just out of interest has anybody heard the Tannoy DC10/ DC8 or indeed compared them to say Turnberrys?:)
Just out of interest has anybody heard the Tannoy DC10/ DC8 or indeed compared them to say Turnberrys?:)
Hi yes, I have. I listened to DC10s and DC10a's and to my mind the Turnberrys are far better, the Kensingtons better still. The Definition range IMHO are fashion boxes and do not show what the DC drivers are capable of. the Turnberrys and Kensingtons are far in a way better to my ears...more musical, more involving. I found the DC10s lacking in bass and quite strident at higher volumes.
walpurgis
19-01-2013, 13:25
The System 10 DMT are rather good, they use a plastic coned relative of the Turnbury unit. A friend has a pair and I've heard them sounding very well.
The System 10 DMT are rather good, they use a plastic coned relative of the Turnbury unit. A friend has a pair and I've heard them sounding very well.
The system 10 DMT and the System 12 DMT both use plastic cones and the System 15 uses a paper cone. All the prestige range use paper cones. The DMT10s aren't really comparable with the Turnberrys and whilst very efficient and an easy load, require a little more damping as they have higher cone inertia. They can be driven nicely with low powered amps and do have a great midrange but the styling isn't to everyone's tastes. There was a pair knocking about for sale priced at around £650 recently. Given the choice of the DMT range or the DC range, I'd take the System 15 DMT over the DC10 any day.
walpurgis
19-01-2013, 17:50
Plastic cones can sound very good. I had a pair of System 1000 Tannoys and a pair of System 800 at the same time, both of which had plastic cones. I kept the System 800, they were better. They sound absolutely lovely.
I loved the old cheaper DC2000 and 3000's. Huge fun and who cares about absolute fidelity. Put it this way, they didn't scream or screech at you and if placed with some care and used with a suitable amp with good damping, they boogied really well and went loud too, given half a chance :)
Plastic cones can sound very good. I had a pair of System 1000 Tannoys and a pair of System 800 at the same time, both of which had plastic cones. I kept the System 800, they were better. They sound absolutely lovely.
They can indeed! Harbeth are a prime example of that. I have some fond memories of an old set of Mission 710s I had (late 1970's?) which were great fun .
Agree with David too that the older and cheaper DC2000's are good fun and can boogie. I'd rather have them than the DC10's!
walpurgis
19-01-2013, 19:02
I've used the DC1000 and DC2000. The DC1000 was the cleaner sounding of the two. The extra bass unit in the DC2000 seemed to cloud the imaging slightly for some reason. Both good fun speakers though, if a bit coloured and as Dave suggests they did go ridiculously loud for their size.
The little Tannoy i6 unit is another very good one. It normally comes in a horrible, undersized, plastic weather proof cabinet, but the driver is a cracker and if mounted in a sensible cabinet with its crossover, it sounds extremely good. They are the same driver as used in the System 600 and can be picked up very cheaply on ebay from time to time. Well worth keeping an eye out for.
Lol... Have you ever owned any long enough, with the right system, to get a proper handle on what they sound like? ;)
Also, as they don't fit into your 'era of acceptance', dude, I'm not surprised what your feelings are! :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
19-01-2013, 19:38
Andr'e,
I own two pairs of seventies Tannoys and they are here strictly on the strength of their abilities. I don't give a toss about image, appearance, or basically what anybody else thinks, the sound I get is all that matters.
If the preceding parts of the system aren't right you can make Tannoys sound pretty bad. Get it right and it is SO right!
Shame you're not nearer, I could get you round here for 're-education'.
Geoff.
I don't give a toss about image, appearance, or basically what anybody else thinks, the sound I get is all that matters.
+1 :)
Me neither, regarding the former. Nothing could be further down my list of priorities!
All vintage Tannoys have a different sound, so people are bound to prefer certain ones over others. I pretty much like them all, on the end of the right system, although some of the 70s HPD-era models can be a little bright and 'shouty', especially with solid-state amps.
Marco.
I doubt you could re-educate me, one certain ex mate used to change amps more often than his under kecks, however ive heard many different combo's with em, so it was never the combo's..
Were any of them that he had valve amps? If so, which ones were they, or were the amps your mate had all solid state? :)
Marco.
I do accept wholeheartedly that you don't like them (and you're entitled to your opinion), but what's annoying about you, daftee, is that you never explain WHY. I like proper explanations for things.... Informing us that you don't like MGs them tells us nothing useful other than you don't like them! ;)
Oh, and I know you have an ABR fetish, s'ok, I can relate to that :eyebrows: So tell us, WHAT exactly is it you don't like about Monitor Golds, etc? I promise that no-one will bite your head off! :D
Marco.
montesquieu
19-01-2013, 21:11
:scratch: i can't understand why you won't you accept i don't like them? but prefer the two models pointed that employ ABR units ?
I think the point is that with the wrong amps, it's easy to get completely the wrong idea about Tannoys.
If you haven't heard them with the right amps then you don't really have sufficient information to come to that conclusion.
The real proper Tannoys don't need additional bass radiators anyway, they may add bass but will always muddy the sound compared to a proper dual concentric, appropriately encased and amplified.
Rare Bird
19-01-2013, 21:12
I also pointed out that ive heard loads of combo's (both tube & Transistor with em btw)
i think , all imho , tannoys are missunderstood , their design etc was for the whole perfect , 50 years ago , the bass / mids are way out there , then they fall down , i really really think (as per previous post) there is a lot more can be had from tannoy duals'
Sorry, Tommy. I don't get what you mean by "then they fall down" :scratch:
Marco.
montesquieu
19-01-2013, 21:26
i think , all imho , tannoys are missunderstood , their design etc was for the whole perfect , 50 years ago , the bass / mids are way out there , then they fall down , i really really think (as per previous post) there is a lot more can be had from tannoy duals'
I disagree Tam. When tweaking the crossover and later when experimenting with active, I did lots of measurement. They are putting treble out there right up to where microphone response falls off. Lack of Tannoy treble response is a myth. The fact is they are voiced to make music, not to compete with gee-whiz hifi speakers which overemphasise the treble region to make an impact.
I've actually tried four different brands of supertweeter with mine to see what impact that might have, in all cases the result was less musical.
There were speakers (Cambridge R50s - which I've owned - and various KEFs spring to mind) back in the 60s and 70s that did the extended treble response thing and none of them can hold a candle musically to the coherence and 'rightness' of a Monitor Gold.
they die above 13/14 khz , everything below is a right thing , everything above is missing :doh:
Sorry, Tommy. I don't get what you mean by "then they fall down" :scratch:
Marco.
I disagree Tam. When tweaking the crossover and later when experimenting with active, I did lots of measurement. They are putting treble out there right up to where microphone response falls off. Lack of Tannoy treble response is a myth. The fact is they are voiced to make music, not to compete with gee-whiz hifi speakers which overemphasise the treble region to make an impact.
I've actually tried four different brands of supertweeter with mine to see what impact that might have, in all cases the result was less musical.
There were speakers (Cambridge R50s - which I've owned - and various KEFs spring to mind) back in the 60s and 70s that did the extended treble response thing and none of them can hold a candle musically to the coherence and 'rightness' of a Monitor Gold.
I totally agree, Tom, but it's rather interesting when I swap from my Lockwoods and pop the Celestion 66s onto the end of the system... I can say for a fact that the 66s are defo more extended at the top-end, and in a way which isn't in the slightest "gee-whiz hifi"! ;)
It's one of the reasons why I bought the 66s, as they have a totally different presentation from Tannoy DCs, but do the same 'musical thing' in their own inimitable way, which is equally as enjoyable.... It's nice to have a choice :)
Marco.
montesquieu
19-01-2013, 21:37
they die above 13/14 khz , everything below is a right thing , everything above is missing :doh:
Bit of a fallacy .. I could show you the measurements (if I could find the graphs).
that being the whole point tom , most people do not have the capabilities to "tweak" have to put up with what they get , imho , a 4/5 foot quarter wave to speed the bass up / dig deeper , and a very carefully selected tweeter , running in tandem would lift them to another level , all of ccourse imho
I disagree Tam. When tweaking the crossover and later when experimenting with active, I did lots of measurement. They are putting treble out there right up to where microphone response falls off. Lack of Tannoy treble response is a myth. The fact is they are voiced to make music, not to compete with gee-whiz hifi speakers which overemphasise the treble region to make an impact.
I've actually tried four different brands of supertweeter with mine to see what impact that might have, in all cases the result was less musical.
There were speakers (Cambridge R50s - which I've owned - and various KEFs spring to mind) back in the 60s and 70s that did the extended treble response thing and none of them can hold a candle musically to the coherence and 'rightness' of a Monitor Gold.
montesquieu
19-01-2013, 21:41
I totally agree, Tom, but it's rather interesting when I swap from my Lockwoods and pop the Celestion 66s onto the end of the system... I can say for a fact that the 66s are defo more extended at the top-end, and in a way which isn't in the slightest "gee-whiz hifi"! ;)
It's one of the reasons why I bought the 66s, as they have a totally different presentation from Tannoy DCs, but do the same 'musical thing' in their own inimitable way, which is equally as enjoyable.... It's nice to have a choice :)
Marco.
My point is that it's a matter of voicing, not a question of lack of response. There is information up there it's simply not over-emphasised. I have no time whatever for Dalis and the like with their ribbon tweeters and rising treble response as advocated by people who prefer to hifi to music.
they die above 13/14 khz , everything below is a right thing , everything above is missing :doh:
Ah, I getcha now... I think it was the overuse of commas! Maybe try using a wee full-stop now and again... ;)
I certainly wouldn't say that everything above was missing (defo not the case with mine), otherwise I would notice that effect very easily when I swapped back from using the 66s.
However, the Celestions most certainly extend higher up into the frequency range, which is easily heard with the right music, and indeed I'm sure that the effect could be measured, but it's a subtle difference, rather than a glaringly obvious one.
I love the 66s, but after a few days of listening to music through them, and returning to my Lockwoods, there's always a feeling of 'ah, now I'm home'! :)
Marco.
My point is that it's a matter of voicing, not a question of lack of response. There is information up there it's simply not over-emphasised. I have no time whatever for Dalis and the like with their ribbon tweeters and rising treble response as advocated by people who prefer to hifi to music.
I do agree, although in my opinion, the difference in the high-frequency response between the Celestions and my Tannoy MGs is likely there in the measurments. For me, it's defo not a voicing thing.
However, that doesn't stop me from overall preferring the Tannoys! Ultimately, I enjoy their style of musical presentation more :)
Marco.
have to agree marco , love the sound that tannoys bring , could very easily live with them everyday , but , and there is a but , i think with a bit of modern design , they could be , simply the best , soz about the poor english , and yes whilst entriged listening , still think a wee bit more could be squeezed
Ah, I getcha now... I think it was the overuse of commas! Maybe try a wee full-stop now and again... ;)
I certainly wouldn't say that everything above was missing (defo not the case with mine), otherwise I would notice that effect very easily when I swapped back from using the 66s.
However, the Celestions most certainly extend higher up into the frequency range, which is most obvious with the right music, and indeed I'm sure that the effect could be measured, but it's a subtle difference, rather than a glaringly obvious one.
I love the 66s, but after a few days of listening to music through them, and returning to my Lockwoods, there's always a feeling of 'ah, now I'm home'! :)
Marco.
Fair enough, dude. However, you don't need to make 15 MGs "larger sounding", because they're fooking "larger sounding" enough!! :eek: ;)
I think half the problem is that you don't really like BIG speakers. All the speakers you've said you've liked on here are what I would term as 'titchy'. Personally, I couldn't live with anything smaller than my 66s, as I like deep bass, and especially SCALE... :exactly:
If I used the speakers you like on the end of my system, whilst I might like the sound, I'd wonder where the bass had gone!!
YMMV :)
Marco.
Entering the latest discussion a little late but I'm with Marco and Tom. I was told in no uncertain terms that the Turnberrys needed super tweeters (by someone who happened to sell them) but there's plenty of detail there. Unlike my old Proac speakers that were designed to wow on first impressions but actually tend to make your ears bleed after 20 minutes listening, I can listen to the Tannoys all day without treble fatigue. They are voiced very naturally IMHO, although its true that there are speakers out there with a flatter response across the audible bandwidth. That doesn't matter when they are so musically involving and when most music bought today is mastered and engineered so that whatever your speakers measure at, the replay depends to some extent what the studio monitors were that the engineers used for mastering....and many still use Tannoys!
Have a look at this graph (link below) those who still mistakenly believe that all vintage Tannoys are rolled off. The top line on each graph shows the "flat" response befoe applying any roll off or energy drop to accommodate different room acoustics. Those graphs are still more than acceptable today and much flatter in the 50 to 100Hz region too where many of todays compact floor standers and stand mount speakers have an artificial hump built in (usually where port tuning kicks in) so have a more natural bass presentation too. This is an actual measurement from the 315HPD and puts to bed the myth that they don't do treble or that it rolls off after 14KHz:
http://www.44bx.com/tannoy/images/Page8.jpg
walpurgis
19-01-2013, 22:51
Bit of a fallacy .. I could show you the measurements (if I could find the graphs).
Here's a publicity sheet for the Monitor Gold with response graphs.
http://i50.tinypic.com/1zfs941.jpg
There is significant but slightly reduced output beyond 20kHz and I believe the treble output actually extends to around 30kHz, but is dropping steeply by that point.
Look similar to the link I just posted for the HPDs Geoff!
Here it is as a jpg:
http://www.44bx.com/tannoy/images/Page8.jpg
Which idiot told you that Tannoy DC tweeters roll off? Certainly wasn't me!!!!! If anything, a super-tweeter (the early Tannoy models being nothing of the sort!) may just possibly tame the ripples in the pepperpot design, which are measurable if not directly audible. Somewhere out there, there are modern plots taken of the more recently tweaked Tannoy drivers, and they're MUCH smoother right through the treble..
I don't want to start this all off again, but the Turnberry SE's I heard were actually very smooth and almost sweet in a "BBC Derived" kind of way - and I mean this as a compliment. No lack of treble, just a lack of ringing or nasty tinselly peaks!
Great point David RE the super tweeters. I hadn't considered the smoothing effects of the super tweeter.
Must admit that the treble on the Turnberrys is one of the things I like about them! Where they are fussy is around the crossover point and their behaviour depends largely on what amp is driving them. As Tom has alluded to, get the amp wrong and one can be forgiven for coming away with a poor first impression but get it right and its a different story entirely. Very amp dependant IMHO and worth putting the mileage in to get the right amp match.
I may try some refurbed quads (33/303) with the HPDs out of curiosity as these were often matched with them originally.
An original 44/405 drove Cheviots superbly I remember and of course the 33/303 was a classic Top End match to Lancasters/Chatsworths and Yorks et al from the early 70's. Not sure about the stock 33 in modern times (I love the looks and feel though) but a well fettled and set up 303 is a rather lovely thing IMO and absolutely perfect for driving the Tannoy approx 11 ohm load of this period :)
Here's a publicity sheet for the Monitor Gold with response graphs.
http://i50.tinypic.com/1zfs941.jpg
There is significant but slightly reduced output beyond 20kHz and I believe the treble output actually extends to around 30kHz, but is dropping steeply by that point.
I think that shows pretty clearly what's going on. Has anyone got response graphs for Celestion 66 Studio Monitors?
Audibly, I'm sure that the combination/crossover points of the midrange units and tweeters results in the 66s having a more extended high-frequency response than any Tannoy DCs. I'd like to see some measurements to prove that what I'm hearing is right :)
Btw, I loved this bit from the ad:
Change should be made for improvement - not for just the sake of change...
If only that principle were universally true of audio equipment these days!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
The early Tannoy "super-tweeter" only went to 28kHz in any case and rolled in at around 9kHz as I remember..
Marco, the HF2000 tweet should be good for 30kHz I reckon although all the plots I ever saw only went up to 20khz. The main issue for this one, the Coles equivalent and the KEF T27 was actually lower down, where they needed a fairly high crossover point to integrate well. Your 66's will be fine I think since the mid dome "should" work up to this frequency better than the cone driver in the 44's for instance.
walpurgis
20-01-2013, 00:00
Has anyone got response graphs for Celestion 66 Studio Monitors?
I'll have a rummage. No promises, but I may come up with something.
Cool. I'd appreciate that, Geoff :)
Marco.
walpurgis
20-01-2013, 00:13
Look similar to the link I just posted for the HPDs Geoff!
Yes, you posted yours while I was still posting mine. I didn't know we'd be nearly duplicating. Still, it all adds to the equation.
The mention of a super tweeter smoothing effect may well have some merit and I'd tend to go along with that to an extent until it's proved wrong.
However, having done a lot of experimentation with 'supertweeters' (as such), I have found that the best type of tweeter to use with Tannoys is a high quality horn tweeter, maybe the tonal characteristics blend in with the output from the Tannoy horn unit better, or deliver a similarly shaped wavefront, I don't know, but it seems to be the case. My favourite was a pair of hefty 8 ohm Isophon horns (which I still have) with good output to about 23khz. These were rolled in very high using a 0.22 microfarad cap, using an 'L' pad to adjust.
Regardless of top end extension 'supertweeters' definitely seem to enhance the subjective impression one gets from some speakers.
By the way, I believe Celestion used to quote an upper limit of 40kHz for the HF2000 (KEF quoted 30kHz for their T27).
BTH K10A
20-01-2013, 00:27
Classic Tannoy DC's roll off quite sharply at about 15/16kHz.
Anyone who thinks Tannoy could produce a CD that was intrinsically flat from 1.2kHz to 20Hz is living in cloud cuckoo land.
The ageing Tannoy crossovers can be improved upon but its more about flattening the response than increasing the frequency range.
This link gives some good curves of what is achievable.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm
I've had 15" Tannoy DC's in large cabinets, used in both passive and active configuration, and IMHO they are better than most current day designs in many ways. However, I prefer BTH K10A's as they produce more articulate bass than the Tannoy's, are comparable in the mids and articulate HF much better than the Tannoy's, even though they only go about 1kHZ higher. All in all much more enjoyable speaker to listen to but unfortunately not as common as the Tannoy's. :exactly:
Just my personal experience though.
walpurgis
20-01-2013, 00:42
I recollect the BTH drivers. Whiteley Stentorian and Altec also made similar types of designs. There were others I believe but they escape me at the moment (probably the couple of beers I've had). I've heard the Altec units in their 'Stonehenge' speaker many years ago and it was a good sound, but not as good as the then current Monitor Golds.
I'm not sure why you say the Tannoys roll off steeply above 16kHz. The output may get uneven higher up but it extends beyond 20kHz at a reduced level of only a few db.
I've not bothered and it's not really important, but I may have a bash at measuring the treble extension.
Hi yes, I have. I listened to DC10s and DC10a's and to my mind the Turnberrys are far better, the Kensingtons better still. The Definition range IMHO are fashion boxes and do not show what the DC drivers are capable of. the Turnberrys and Kensingtons are far in a way better to my ears...more musical, more involving. I found the DC10s lacking in bass and quite strident at higher volumes.
Thanks Paul.:)
By the way, I believe Celestion used to quote an upper limit of 40kHz for the HF2000.
That would be interesting, as it would explain the extra extension I'm hearing with the 66s, in comparison with my Monitor Golds :)
I know that Tom's not had much success so far with super-tweeters, and his 15 MGs, but I'm convinced that if the right ones could be found, then genuine improvements would be made.
I've never used super-tweeters with speakers, but one thing that puts me off is something I read about them putting more strain on the partnering amplifier (or adversely affecting it in some way), which if true, would concern me.
How exactly are super-tweeters connected - where do they go at the amp and speaker end? I've never done it before.
Marco.
Hi Andy,
However, I prefer BTH K10A's as they produce more articulate bass than the Tannoy's, are comparable in the mids and articulate HF much better than the Tannoy's, even though they only go about 1kHZ higher. All in all much more enjoyable speaker to listen to...
Just my personal experience though.
Fair enough, but it wasn't mine, when I heard those ones that chap was selling one time, a few years ago on AoS, after his father had died and left him the speakers. Remember the ones? I hadn't heard of BTH speakers then and you told me all about them, and also the chap who was selling them when he joined AoS.
I was interested in buying the BTHs, and so drove to see him, taking my Croft and Copper amp with me. They were pretty good, but to my ears, nowhere near as good as my 15 MGs. However, maybe those weren't the best examples? :)
Marco.
Probably the best Tannoys I heard are Tannoyman Westminster, then closely followed by Marco's Lockwoods. That might change if Marco decides to go active in the future
A lot of Tannoys unfortunately have left me unimpressed so guess a lot of their sound comes down to implementation I know both Marco and Tannoyman has spent a lot of time and effort getting them right and both have different thoughts about getting the best out of them
I also like Westies, but unlike you dude, I've not yet had the pleasure of listening to them in a home environment, only at shows.
It'll be interesting what you think next time you pop up and have a listen to the Lockwoods, as since the last time you visited, my system has undergone a number of improvements, which of course are revealed in all their glory by the 'wide-open window' nature of the Lockwoods, thus in turn improving the sound they now produce quite drastically..... :eyebrows:
It's been a while since you visited! ;)
Marco,
Yes far to long perhaps sometime in spring
I think people like us the systems we have are constantly developing its just the way we wired up, its a journey without end
Rare Bird
20-01-2013, 09:25
And some of us have tiny rooms that won't house a pair of sky scrapers the inability to crank the volume up is a no no anyway :unfair:
Hence the mission ive always been on is speakers that give everything possible from a decent size cabinet at very low level..However i am more than happy.
Lol ;) latter I be pumping up the volume :gig:
Rare Bird
20-01-2013, 09:32
:(
That's the thing with Tannoys generally. No two pairs sound the same in any two systems due to condition, cabinet choice, amp matching and in-room response.
What they are capable of and what you may hear when visiting someone who has them could be light years apart....that's the learning I've taken after listening to quite a few.
Everything can be improved upon, even the best of the best, and personal tastes vary meaning that they won't be to everyone's tastes. Its doesn't bother me personally what other people think as having heard well implemented Tannoys, there's no way I'd now go back to using anything else. They're not perfect, and like everything in life, what you put in (in terms of learning and effort) will pay dividends with them.
The only advice I can offer to anyone curious is to listen to as many pairs as possible, do your homework and choose carefully if you decide you'd like some. The amp is the only other headache as what works for one person in one room may not work for another. Room size is less important than you think as their's a DC to suit all room sizes (the modern 10 inch units and the older 12 inch units will do small very well).
Yes far to long perhaps sometime in spring
I think people like us the systems we have are constantly developing its just the way we wired up, its a journey without end
Lol... I can't see the core components changing in my system anytime soon, and indeed they haven't since you last visited (apart from the bits that make now up the Techy), but how the system receives power from the mains has been further optimised, and the mains and signal leads themselves upgraded, along with the copper amp and Croft being further, fairly extensively modified, resulting in pretty fundamental sonic improvements across the board, and the Lockwoods sounding 'naughtier' and more frightening than ever!! :trust: :eek: :fingers: :hairmetal:
Marco.
BTH K10A
20-01-2013, 11:03
Hi Andy,
Fair enough, but it wasn't mine, when I heard those ones that chap was selling one time, a few years ago on AoS, after his father had died and left him the speakers. Remember the ones? I hadn't heard of BTH speakers then and you told me all about them, and also the chap who was selling them when he joined AoS.
I was interested in buying the BTHs, and so drove to see him, taking my Croft and Copper amp with me. They were pretty good, but to my ears, nowhere near as good as my 15 MGs. However, maybe those weren't the best examples? :)
Marco.
Marco, the ones you looked at were DC12's sometimes known a QA14's. Although they are very good in the mid range they are not in the same league as the K10A or your 15MG's as they only have a FR of 50 to 14kHz.
The K10A uses the same cone and Basket as the Western Electric 4181a and Jensen M20 with a BTH E5a derived compression driver through the middle. The K10A bass notes certainly have more clarity and speed than the 15" Tannoys and reveal more of the subtle nuances.
http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWwe/G0204/E/50-10/C04-20926-39093-00/
http://soundup.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=470:bth-type-k10a&catid=7:speakers&directory=2
Hi Andy,
Marco, the ones you looked at were DC12's sometimes known a QA14's. Although they are very good in the mid range they are not in the same league as the K10A or your 15MG's as they only have a FR of 50 to 14kHz.
The K10A uses the same cone and Basket as the Western Electric 4181a and Jensen M20 with a BTH E5a derived compression driver through the middle.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Those BTHs look well cool!
The K10A bass notes certainly have more clarity and speed than the 15" Tannoys and reveal more of the subtle nuances.
That situation may change, though, once one has upgraded the stock Tannoy crossovers with the highest quality parts, and hard-wired them into the 'flat' position, removing the switches, as I've done. That resulted in a MASSIVE sonic improvement!
Trust me, there is now no shortage of clarity or speed in the bass, nor the revealing of subtle nuances, with the Lockwoods, therefore it would be interesting now to do a comparison between them and the K10As! :)
Marco.
walpurgis
20-01-2013, 11:41
And some of us have tiny rooms that won't house a pair of sky scrapers the inability to crank the volume up is a no no anyway :unfair:
Well, I dunno about you Andr'e, but my listening room is about 11 feet by 10 feet and my Tannoy Cheviots work just fine in there (not to mention the other two pairs of Tannoys in the room too and the twenty five odd decks, amps & CD players, etc.).
Geoff.
Rare Bird
20-01-2013, 11:50
But im in the living room, all the sofa, TV, records & all that crap doesnt leave me much room
How many rooms has your flat got, dude? Is there no chance of converting one of them into a dedicated listening room, or is the living room the only decent-sized room you've got? :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
20-01-2013, 12:29
I have a spare back room that ive decorated out, but i can't position the speakers right without my symetrical OCD kicking in :lol:
Lol - what are you like! :D
Marco.
walpurgis
20-01-2013, 12:55
Regarding the operating frequency range of the Celestion Ditton 66. Here's a scan of the B&K response graph along with general spec details:
http://i48.tinypic.com/14bthkl.jpg
Hope you can all read it OK.
Ignore the vertical cut-off at approx 27kHz on the response graph. The machine would have been set to go only to that point, the actual top end extension of the HF2000 tweeter would continue past there.
You don't see modern speakers quoted for their harmonic distortion figures very often. I wonder why?:eyebrows:
Regarding the operating frequency range of the Celestion Ditton 66. Here's a scan of the B&K response graph along with general spec details:
http://i48.tinypic.com/14bthkl.jpg
Hope you can all read it OK.
Ignore the vertical cut-off at approx 27kHz on the response graph. The machine would have been set to go only to that point, the actual top end extension of the HF2000 tweeter would continue past there.
Also, from elsewhere on the brochure:
The HF2000 super-tweeter reproduces the upper region of the audio spectrum, functioning from 5 kHz to well beyond audibility.
Kinda proves what I was saying... There's defo more top-end extension on the 66s than on my 15" MGs - I ain't deef! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
20-01-2013, 15:52
The axial response is 'textbook' too, very good indeed.
BTH K10A
20-01-2013, 16:12
Regarding the operating frequency range of the Celestion Ditton 66. Here's a scan of the B&K response graph along with general spec details:
http://i48.tinypic.com/14bthkl.jpg
Hope you can all read it OK.
Ignore the vertical cut-off at approx 27kHz on the response graph. The machine would have been set to go only to that point, the actual top end extension of the HF2000 tweeter would continue past there.
Sensitivity is lower than I expected. Usually figures are quoted at 1 Watt input :scratch:
dantheman91
20-01-2013, 18:52
Marco:
I have an advert from Hi Fi News Aug 1973 it has the Specs of the Ditton 66's
I don't have a review on the 66, nor the 662 except for a positive comment in one of the HiFi Choice summary reviews - a bit too expensive for a "recommendation" but nowt untoward. The simpler but directly related 552's DID get a recommendation and their response isn't so different from the one above.
I do remember we traded in some 552's and I'm sure there was a scrappy pair of 662's come in as well. They were very good indeed and far smoother and less coloured than most non KEF's around in the early 70's. The taller and slimmer boxes also confirm the excellent dispersion they have.
dantheman91
20-01-2013, 19:49
The axial response is 'textbook' too, very good indeed.
Hi
any axis responce for the ditton 44's
Marco:
I have an advert from Hi Fi News Aug 1973 it has the Specs of the Ditton 66's
Nice one, Dan - much appreciated... I'll add it to my collection :)
As everyone can see, the 66s, on paper, are rather impressive, and I can confirm that when you hear them, on the end of a good system, that impressiveness is even more impressive! :eyebrows:
A very nice alternative to 15" MGs (or any Tannoy DCs), yes indeedy.....
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4737/66s4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/145/66s4.jpg/)
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8488/66s3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/66s3.jpg/)
Marco.
Rare Bird
20-01-2013, 20:20
I'll have a look see if i have any reviews.
dantheman91
20-01-2013, 20:21
Nice one, Dan - much appreciated... I'll add it to my collection :)
As everyone can see, the 66s, on paper, are rather impressive, and I can confirm that when you hear them, on the end of a good system, that impressiveness is even more impressive! :eyebrows:
A very nice alternative to 15" MGs (or any Tannoy DCs), yes indeedy.....
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4737/66s4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/145/66s4.jpg/)
Marco.
Hi
No Problem. I love advertisements like this. I am still listening to my ditton 44's they just don't make them like they used to the craftsmanship and engineering thats for the time is outstanding there built to last no like today's. Some people slate the 44's but at the end of the day the play music simple as.
Coolio! :)
Paul, sorry about the thread drift!
Marco.
Rare Bird
20-01-2013, 20:43
Don't worry :lol:
walpurgis
21-01-2013, 00:26
Hi
any axis responce for the ditton 44's
I can give you scans of the Ditton 44 brochure.
Just deposit £120 into my PayPal account. (JOKING!)
You are welcome if you want them really.
dantheman91
21-01-2013, 08:06
I can give you scans of the Ditton 44 brochure.
Just deposit £120 into my PayPal account. (JOKING!)
You are welcome if you want them really.
Hi
Yes Please :)
Right folks, to get things back on track ;) ;) nudge nudge
Have ordered a set of these for each cabinet:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/images/cmc858muagl.gif
CMC pure OFC silver plated binding posts....yum.
Have decided to keep the standard cross-over but just replace the caps with a like for like value polypropylene cap replacement.
Any suggestions for the best without breaking the bank? Hovland, Jensen, budget ones? I won't risk lifting the original solder tracks as they're not really designed for re-soldering too many times so instead plan to snip the existing capacitor legs leaving a stub which I'll clean up with emery then solder the new capacitor legs to these using crocodile clips to hold the two together and act as a heat sink.
Ali Tait
21-01-2013, 12:34
Clarity Cap are good imho and not pricey.
Hi Paul,
I use Clarity Cap MRs in mine, with excellent results (just depends if you can get the right values, though). Also many people modifying Tannoy crossovers have had excellent results with the Ansar 'Glasshouse' types:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/ansar.html or here: http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/home.php?cat=155
Superb sound, and don't break the bank either! They also look a little more 'vintage' than others :)
Marco.
Thanks guys, I'll check out which ones I need although I'm told that the large one near the inductor is in a rating no longer available, so I may have to wire two or three in parallel to get the right overall value (by summing the collective capacitance values of each). Looking at using polys, and in addition to the above, was told to check ouy the CPC caps (part of Farnell)
Some preogress today.
Drivers removed and cones/cage cleaned up, then carefully packaged ready for Lockwoods.
Crossovers removed and 4 pin plug for connection to the drive units. It seems Tannoy have used 0.5mm diameter copper lighting flex (twin and earth) for the speaker connections! Copper by pins was corroded as were pins so all that will be binned and pins cleaned up. Nothing wrong per se in using twin and earth providing its 1.5mm OFC or tinned copper. I'd rather have speaker cable such as the Van Damme Blue series, but my local DIY store sells 1.5mm OFC twin and earth and tinned cables, so I'll replace the lighting flex with something more substantial.
Next was the crossovers which looked to be in good shape. Caps all look ok with no leaks etc but would benefit from change. One thing that stood out was the flimsy wiring from the poor quality speaker binding posts to the PCB, so this was de-soldered:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_6081_zps1891e494.jpg
and replaced with some 2.5mm section Talk 3 cable. The Talk 3 is the Red/White cable. The original wiring is Blue/Brown and looks to be some snipped off lengths of twin and earth (0.5mm):
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_6084_zpsf05c004e.jpg
I haven't yet worked out how to get the cross-over chassis apart without de-soldering the inductors, which is a real pain. In theory, I could simply remove the existing caps and if very dexterous and careful may be able to solder in some new ones, but looks too fiddly without taking the chassis apart (inductor plastic housings are glued to the top half of the chassis whilst their wiring is soldered into the bottom half consisting of the PCB).
Perhaps its me being thick and someone can show me an easier way to do this! Also, I'm having trouble reading the capacitor values. Anyone got a circuit diagram with the values marked on it? (315/8 HPD crossover)
montesquieu
21-01-2013, 17:16
Hi Paul,
I use Clarity Cap MRs in mine, with excellent results (just depends if you can get the right values, though). Also many people modifying Tannoy crossovers have had excellent results with the Ansar 'Glasshouse' types:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/ansar.html or here: http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/home.php?cat=155
Superb sound, and don't break the bank either! They also look a little more 'vintage' than others :)
Marco.
I started with the standard Claritys but later had Nick Gorham update with the ESAs, well worth the extra few bob. Hadn't considered the MRs :scratch:
More progress today on the 2nd crossover and wiring:
This was the state of the wiring from the crossover to the existing 4 pin HPD connector:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_6086_zps751f6186.jpg
Junked the 0.5mm lighting flex, re-tinned the 4 pin plug and soldered a new better quality 1.5mm conductor size cable between crossover and 4-pin connector. Here it is all tidied up:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6089_zps45c49aa0.jpg
Also designed the new plinth, selected the timber, drew up the cutting list, marked up and cut the timber needed:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/IMG_6090_zps3da55b7b.jpg
I couldn't find a decent matching Teak veneer for the final finish anywhere (like rocking horse stuff is the original veneer used) so have selected a lovely sheet of Sepele which should be with me later in the week. Got some casters too, so once I have the stands completed I'll post some more pics.
montesquieu
22-01-2013, 16:56
Really going for it Paul ... and you haven't even heard them yet ;)
There's no stopping an express train Tom :thumbsup:
Doesn't really matter in some ways what they sound like as the whole aim for me is to bring back to life a classic set of British designed and manufactured loudspeakers, hopefully making some improvements as I go along!
One thing's for sure, and that's that they'll be about as good a set of 12 inch Vintage Tannoys as you can find when everything is done.
I'm also working on a super-tweeter design for them (DIY of course) but that's on the back burner for now as I want to get the main speakers completed and up and running.
Looking good so far, Paul! :)
I'm also working on a super-tweeter design for them (DIY of course)...
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Were you influenced at all by recent discussions on that subject?
Marco.
Looking good so far, Paul! :)
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Were you influenced at all by recent discussions on that subject?
Marco.
Nope, not at all Marco. It stems back to before I bought the Turnberrys when research showed some benefits of using supertweeters to enhance harmonics which was said to improve overall presentation. Ever the sceptic, most commericial brands are way over priced so I decided then that if I were to try some, they'd have to be DIY. A fellow enthusiast and electronic engineer recommended some units along with the values to try for the caps on a basic crossover. It is something I'll get round to but not for a few months.
Hi Tom,
I started with the standard Claritys but later had Nick Gorham update with the ESAs, well worth the extra few bob. Hadn't considered the MRs :scratch:
The MRs are quite an improvement on the ESAs, due to the unique design features of the former, in terms of addressing the issue of mechanical resonances. The white paper written on the subject makes interesting reading:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/claritycapmr.pdf
I've compared the MRs against the ESAs, and there is no question that the former offer a significant sonic improvement. If you can get the right values in MRs, then you've got a nice upgrade waiting there, should you wish to pursue it ;)
Marco.
Nope, not at all Marco. It stems back to before I bought the Turnberrys when research showed some benefits of using supertweeters to enhance harmonics which was said to improve overall presentation. Ever the sceptic, most commericial brands are way over priced so I decided then that if I were to try some, they'd have to be DIY. A fellow enthusiast and electronic engineer recommended some units along with the values to try for the caps on a basic crossover. It is something I'll get round to but not for a few months.
That's cool, Paul. I definitely think that if done right, and integrated properly, there is mileage in the use of super-tweeters with Tannoy DCs :)
Marco.
montesquieu
22-01-2013, 20:09
Hi Tom,
The MRs are quite an improvement on the ESAs, due to the unique design features of the former, in terms of addressing the issue of mechanical resonances. The white paper written on the subject makes interesting reading:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/claritycapmr.pdf
I've compared the MRs against the ESAs, and there is no question that the former offer a significant sonic improvement. If you can get the right values in MRs, then you've got a nice upgrade waiting there, should you wish to pursue it ;)
Marco.
Thanks Marco really interesting. Luckily I scored a spare set of crossovers (which Russ C has just wired & boxed up for me) so I'm ready to part with my existing ones for a bit ... I was in touch with Nick G yesterday and will be sending them up when some new bits arrive:
Decent quality connectors (the ones currently are very cheap)
Dave Slagle autoformers to replace the current fixed inductors
There aren't all that many caps in there so maybe the MR upgrade will be affordable ... any idea what the caps bill in total came to on yours?
Hi Tom,
It was a long time ago, mate, and I got them from Hi-Fi Collective along with all sorts of other stuff, such as Duelund resistors and Mundorf air-core foil coil inductors, etc, so I couldn't say for sure, but the final bill certainly wasn't cheap! :eek:
If you check the HFC website, you'll get a good idea of the costs involved of using the MRs.
In my experience with upgrading crossovers on Tannoy DCs, however, the sonic rewards are significant from spending as much as you can afford on the best components - that is if the end result you desire is genuinely high-end sound, as opposed to something else that is good, but not quite at that level.... :)
Marco.
Really enjoying this thread keep it up chaps :)
Some more progress this morning:
First of the new plinths made and fitted. For now I've just fitted the base with the steel domed feet removed from the original base until I drill and fit the castors.
Just need to fill and lightly sand to a decent finish to accept the veneer. Fit is exact. The new plinth sits very precisely to the old one with no steps or gaps, so the veneer which will go across both sections should fit very well and it will look like a monolithic construction:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6091_zpsca9d741a.jpg
Front View:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6092_zps75f0a15f.jpg
To give an idea of scale, the speaker now stand a whopping 43 inches high (1.1m) without castors. The castors will raise them to 45 inches (1.1.5m). The base is also very heavy and stable. With the drivers fitted, these will be a 2 man lift job.
hifi_dave
23-01-2013, 13:16
Makes my Contiboard efforts look a bit crap..:scratch:
Makes my Contiboard efforts look a bit crap..:scratch:
I could mess things up yet Dave! The only thing I hadn't thought through was the type of castor. I've bought standard 40mm dia plastic wheeled castors. They'll most likely crack every porcelain tile in the utility and kitchen as I move them to their resting place in the living room! Empty cabs must weigh in at 30 to 35Kg now.
A little more progress this week:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6094_zpsb54622fd.jpg
Both plinths now completed and castors fitted to bases. Bases filled and sanded to get a perfect finish prior to applying Sapele veneer.
Rear view showing joint with existing base:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6099_zps1412fac5.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6103_zpsef930ee4.jpg
Silver plated binding posts fitted to crossovers:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6105_zps9da43f82.jpg
New Mills wire wound resistors on order to replace the existing 50 Ohm ones (one has a nasty looking bulge in it).
I've gone the whole hog and am fitting new crossovers in a few weeks (custom built using foo caps etc) but wanted to have the originals functional too as these stay with the speakers for the eventuality they may get moved on later.
Speaker drive units inspected in detail. One driver shows signs of wear to the suspension, probably as the result of being driven with the foam surrounds gone so I've bitten the bullet and decided to have them re-coned and new suspension fitted. Also have on order a new 4-pin connector for the new crossovers.
Long lambswool/polyester mix internal wadding will replace the sponge foam internal padding which is really rather poor at controlling resonance and in reality does little to attenuate anything other than HF. LF cannot be attenuated using this type of foam so the lambswool mix is targeted at prevention of LF standing waves within the cab.
walpurgis
26-01-2013, 11:01
It's looking good Paul, and interesting.
Shame the cones need replacing. Still, once it's done they'll last indefinitely. Will you be able to tailor the tweeter output with the new crossovers? There can be too much output from the compression driver in relation to the bass in some systems.
I'm thinking of building a couple of short plinths for my Cheviots, to get them off the deck by three or four inches, I'm not getting bass boom, but it may make a difference.
Loving the attention to detail, Paul!
Glad you've decided to make some 'fooey' crossovers too, and retain the originals, should you sell the speakers. That's exactly what I'd have done, and you'll now *really* hear what those drive units are capable of! ;) Castors are also the way to go, too!
Look forward to following the rest of the journey, as it unfolds :)
Marco.
It's looking good Paul, and interesting.
Shame the cones need replacing. Still, once it's done they'll last indefinitely. Will you be able to tailor the tweeter output with the new crossovers? There can be too much output from the compression driver in relation to the bass in some systems.
I'm thinking of building a couple of short plinths for my Cheviots, to get them off the deck by three or four inches, I'm not getting bass boom, but it may make a difference.
It is a shame but to do the job properly, the whole units need refurbishing really and once done they'll just need a re-foam in perhaps another 15 years time. I haven't gone for the HE surrounds as this can destroy the magic of HPD/MG drivers but stuck to original spec with improved voice coils.
The crossovers aren't tuneable save for manually changing cap values if needed. Mark Pitcher is designing and making them up for me only because I have no frequency generator or oscilloscope to test them on afterwards. mark will test and tweak from 20Hz to 20KHz. I'll eventually get round to desoldering all the components from the standard crossovers and replace everything like for like. The cost of the components is around £55 per crossover.
Raising your speakers off the ground ideally should be done to get the tweeter at ear level when seated. It does make an appreciable difference (improvement). Bass boom where it exists is more likely due to cab internal dimensions/padding and some cabs suffered with it, some didn't. I'm told that for ported enclosures the recommended volume for 12 and 15 inch drivers is 150 to 170 litres for best response and for sealed cabs with my 12 inch HPDs its much smaller...from 70 to 110 litres. Mine are 115, so a little extra wadding should improve LF, but it's suck it and see. I've bought enough to redo both cabs completely but may end up only using a fraction of that.
Loving the attention to detail, Paul!
Glad you've decided to make some 'fooey' crossovers too, and retain the originals, should you sell the speakers. That's exactly what I'd have done, and you'll now *really* hear what those drive units are capable of! Castors are also the way to go, too!
Look forward to following the rest of the journey, as it unfolds
Marco.
Thanks Marco...yes, attention to detail is something of a fixation with me, a hang-up from my engineering days where it mattered! (...and still does!). Cabs are too big and heavy to man handle around the room so castors seemed the obvious solution.
Interesting Paul and in this case, I await your findings with bated breath, as it's wonderful to see such careful dedication to the restoration of vintage gear like this :)
When did these models go over to foam surroundss? I remember the last of the pre HPD models did, but cannot remember when.. These cabs would have been originally fitted with the corrugated ones IIRC, tightening the bass at the expense of a bit of extension and giving a touch more sensitivity as a result. Up to you of course and practical experience of the difference is lacking this end, as it wasn't until 1973 that I first heard these both at Radiolux in Watford (decades before they became a solus B&O shop) and also KJ Watford who took Tannoy on six months or so before the "Girdacoustic" HPD models were launched - the Lancasters and Chatsworths they had were sold through pretty quickly I remember.
The thing is, you still have? the Turnberry to use as a modern DC reference, so it'll be great to read what the differences are to you :)
Interesting Paul and in this case, I await your findings with bated breath, as it's wonderful to see such careful dedication to the restoration of vintage gear like this :)
When did these models go over to foam surroundss? I remember the last of the pre HPD models did, but cannot remember when.. These cabs would have been originally fitted with the corrugated ones IIRC, tightening the bass at the expense of a bit of extension and giving a touch more sensitivity as a result. Up to you of course and practical experience of the difference is lacking this end, as it wasn't until 1973 that I first heard these both at Radiolux in Watford (decades before they became a solus B&O shop) and also KJ Watford who took Tannoy on six months or so before the "Girdacoustic" HPD models were launched - the Lancasters and Chatsworths they had were sold through pretty quickly I remember.
The thing is, you still have? the Turnberry to use as a modern DC reference, so it'll be great to read what the differences are to you :)
Thanks David,
These were made in 1974 at the London factory using arguably the best quality of the HPDs and with the foam surrounds boast a sensitivity close to the Turnberrys (91dB V's 93dB). They have a self-resonance of 20Hz and in sealed cabs can drop lower than 35Hz before any appreciable roll-off kicks in. The sealed cabs also help with timing...they're meant to be far more agile than the Cheviots or Lancasters as well as more powerful in the bass. I still have the Turnberrys (they're not going anywhere soon) so it will be interesting to see how close the Mansfields come. They don't have the power handling of the Turnberrys but in most domestic situations, that's not too relevant.
As a reminder to everyone still persevering with original crossovers with the variable treble controls, I measured DC resistance across each part of the circuits today and found unsurprisingly that there was a huge variation between units due to variations in wear with the variable controls.
Where I would expect both to be identical is where the controls are rolled up full where the resistance should be close to the 50 Ohms dictated by the wire wound resistor of that value in each unit. I had just replaced my resistors with Mills wire wounds of 51 Ohms (12watts) and got readings of 51.4 and 51.6 across the crossover circuit, but when rolled back level, one measured 31 Ohms and the other 1.2 Ohms! Proof if any was needed, that the old crossovers are let down by the treble controls, which are only any good if taken apart and thoroughly cleaned up which is a PITA of a job (a day per unit).
Good job I hadn't gone to the expense of replacing anything on the originals except for the large value resistors!
Proof if any was needed, that the old crossovers are let down by the treble controls, which are only any good if taken apart and thoroughly cleaned up which is a PITA of a job (a day per unit).
Indeed. I was never tempted to retain anything about the original crossovers, including the treble controls, although I know that things are slightly different with this current project of yours.
The improvement gained by removing the treble controls, and hard-wiring them in the 'flat' position, using VDH Hybrid internal speaker wire, was rather shocking! :eek:
Marco.
Tannoy also discovered in their crossover re-works in the early 80's how bad these switches could become and that's why they were replaced with the rather tasty screw settings as on your Turnberry's.
One of the things has usually to find the optimum setting and hard wire this on the board, bypassing the controls altogether. My preferred on Cheviots for example was -1 on both, but that was then, although on master quality material.....
That's exactly what I did, resulting in fundamental sonic improvements.
Unless you want to retain the vintage aspects of Tannoys, the treble controls are completely unnecessary. I don't even see the point of them on modern Tannoys, as if your system is voiced properly and the room is decent, there should be no need to move the controls from the 'flat' position.
Marco.
That's exactly what I did, resulting in fundamental sonic improvements.
Unless you want to retain the vintage aspects of Tannoys, the treble controls are completely unnecessary. I don't even see the point of them on modern Tannoys, as if your system is voiced properly and the room is decent, there should be no need to move the controls from the 'flat' position.
Marco.
I agree with that, however it does no harm having them as all rooms are different and at least it allows the end user to set them for best in room acoustic performance then forget them, especially so these days of amps without proper tone controls (shock, horror, I said it! :doh:) Mine are set to the level positions and the crossovers I'm getting are designed for as flat a response as the driver will deliver within reason. After that, it's down to how I tune the cabinets (damping etc) as to what the Mansfields will sound like. I still have no idea what to expect as I've never heard a pair before, but in some ways, I'm not that bothered as I'll have rescued them and (hopefully) improved on the originals with the care and thought I'm trying to put into the project.
walpurgis
27-01-2013, 00:22
I'm sorry, "tone controls", what are they? I vaguely recollect somebody using that term back in the seventies or eighties, but don't understand what bit of 'tone' they refer to.
Actually, I would not have them on an amplifier, but might consider retaining a Musical Fidelity X-Tone for making recordings (or just an equaliser) to address imbalances in older material.
I have kept the tweeter 'level' and 'roll off' controls on my Tannoys, because I know if I take them out of circuit there'll be a 3db rise in HF output. Not what I want. I'm aware there are ways this can be compensated for, but until I notice a problem with the existing switches I won't make a change. What is not widely understood, is that with the kind of switches used by Tannoy (and other makes), is that meter readings don't tell the whole story. A meter only puts through a tiny bit of current and won't necessarily read the switch contact accurately. When the speakers are being driven and a few volts are going through, the switch contacts 'micro weld' and make a very positive contact. This does of course justify the argument for a good contact clean though
I have kept the tweeter 'level' and 'roll off' controls on my Tannoys, because I know if I take them out of circuit there'll be a 3db rise in HF output. Not what I want. I'm aware there are ways this can be compensated for, but until I notice a problem with the existing switches I won't make a change.
Can't say I noticed that, Geoff, when the controls were removed on my 15MGs, so I guess the chap who made the crossovers for me, and installed them, compensated for that.
Mind you, before when the original crossovers were in, the speakers sounded so veiled, tubby sounding and old fashioned (dunno if my Tannoys had particularly bad crossovers, but I certainly couldn't have lived with them that way), that I guess the much livelier, vivid and more detailed sound, but in no way artificially 'forced' or 'in yer face', I've got now, is fundamentally 'brighter' too, but I doubt for the reasons you've mentioned.
It's more likely the result of very old caps and resistors, long past their 'sell by date', being replaced with brand new and sonically superior modern varieties, as the 'before and after' improvement was veritably 'night and day'!!
Even if such fundamental sonic improvements hadn't happened, the thought of tone controls sitting in-line with the signal path, would've gone against all my purist principles and done my head in, so sooner rather than later, they'd have been whipped out, and everything hardwired, as I'm a great believer in keeping signal paths as short and as uninterrupted as possible.
If it were practical to hardwire my whole system together, without any cables or connectors of any kind, I'd do it!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Black Adder
27-01-2013, 10:21
Hi Paul.
Just an observation with the stands here. I made some stands just like those before I went with some open metal ones for the Lancasters. One thing I remember was that they sounded better with an open back as they acted like boom boxes. Have you tried that at all? It may be a different kettle though with those cabs, but it might be worth a go... Maybe even a circular port if you need to keep more rigidity?
walpurgis
27-01-2013, 11:21
I have to say, I do find the controls switches useful on occasion. I do chop and change components around within my line up and currently find -1 on the tweeter 'level' setting seems about right. I don't use the 'roll-off'. There is no audible imbalance between the speakers.
I have yet to take the crossovers out for evaluation. This will be done and at the same time the internal wiring will probably be upgraded. No rush, it's all sounding very fine indeed at the moment.
As for hard wiring an entire system, it has been done. I vaguely recall a feature in a mag about a system which was like this, in America I believe. Not sure the benefits would outweigh the hinderances though.
Indeed - it would be totally impractical, but it doesn't stop me from getting as close to that ideal as possible, as the sonic benefits of doing so are always easily heard! :)
I do chop and change components around within my line up.
That's where you and I differ, as I have very much a settled system now. The only changes I make these days are to ancillary items and/or internal components in my equipment, some of which is tube-rolling.
Marco.
Hi Paul.
Just an observation with the stands here. I made some stands just like those before I went with some open metal ones for the Lancasters. One thing I remember was that they sounded better with an open back as they acted like boom boxes. Have you tried that at all? It may be a different kettle though with those cabs, but it might be worth a go... Maybe even a circular port if you need to keep more rigidity?
The thought had occurred to me but if it proves problematical I can always take the jigsaw to them!
I have to say, I do find the controls switches useful on occasion. I do chop and change components around within my line up and currently find -1 on the tweeter 'level' setting seems about right. I don't use the 'roll-off'. There is no audible imbalance between the speakers.
I have yet to take the crossovers out for evaluation. This will be done and at the same time the internal wiring will probably be upgraded. No rush, it's all sounding very fine indeed at the moment.
As for hard wiring an entire system, it has been done. I vaguely recall a feature in a mag about a system which was like this, in America I believe. Not sure the benefits would outweigh the hinderances though.
My amp has tone controls...that's what they call them although as you pointed out earlier, they don't alter tone, the roll off (or increase) treble response or bass response respectively. I don't therefore need the compensation on the speakers.
If your room is treated/furnished to achieve a decent response with the controls set flat, or the speaker crossover designed as flat then this is the ideal. If source components or the amp are changing things that much that adjustment is needed then I'd argue here's something wrong with them. Of course source material is a different matter and I do find it useful to have a little compensation control for badly recorded pieces.
The earlier comment about small currents being measured through the tone controls not being representative is something that I don't understand I'm afraid as it doesn't seem to make sense to me Geoff. What is "micro-welding" and how does this work? The meter I use measures DC resistance period, so if its different its purely because the circuits are exhibiting variations in resistance which will have an effect on the signal. The value of the circuit resistors and DC resistance does not alter as voltage is increased, only the current alters. However, in operation, the signal is alternating current and circuit impedance rises with frequency (properties of the driver circuit impedance with frequency) but this in itself does not can cannot compensate for resistance differences with the treble roll off and energy controls...in other words, you will not get both speakers to measure the same given the same input signal if the treble controls operate with different resistance and increasing voltage does and cannot not change this. IMHO of course.
I think I'm right in saying that the 12" and 15" HPD's may have different crossover needs and I'm not sure if the basic crossover was shared? Cheviots (12") certainly needed "-1" on the level control and the sometimes rough treble (at the time with the gear used back then) needed -1 as well on the rolloff control. The larger 15" driver may not need this at all obviously.. The old 3kHz peak otherwise has been catalogued on the web..
I think I'm right in saying that the 12" and 15" HPD's may have different crossover needs and I'm not sure if the basic crossover was shared? Cheviots (12") certainly needed "-1" on the level control and the sometimes rough treble (at the time with the gear used back then) needed -1 as well on the rolloff control. The larger 15" driver may not need this at all obviously.. The old 3kHz peak otherwise has been catalogued on the web..
You may be right there David as they certainly changed the crossover design between 15 inch units as well as having different ones for the 12 inch unit. To confuse matters more, they changed some of the resistor values between 12 inch models, and even between the same crossovers from different eras!
The later 385's all used the HPD385A crossover:
http://44bx.com/tannoy/images/MonitorHPD385%20xO1.gif
This compares with the HPD315 Crossover:
http://www.44bx.com/tannoy/images/hpd315_xover.gif
But the MG series shared the same crossover for both 12 inch and 15 inch models:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2548/3968669945_d409c447a6_o.jpg
walpurgis
27-01-2013, 15:25
If source components or the amp are changing things that much that adjustment is needed then I'd argue here's something wrong with them.
The earlier comment about small currents being measured through the tone controls not being representative is something that I don't understand I'm afraid as it doesn't seem to make sense to me Geoff. What is "micro-welding" and how does this work?
Nowt wrong with my gear. Components do have varying sound characteristics and sometimes it helps to modify the balance. Much the same effect can be achieved by swapping cables about according to their influence on the sound.
As for the 'micro-welding', rotary 'click' switches have metal to metal contacts and if you were driving your speakers to a reasonable level and could see the switch contacts, assuming it was dark, you would see a tiny arc across the contacts as they make or break the actual contact. This arc does indeed produce a miniscule weld or scar if you like at the touching point. (This is why contacts that handle significant energy erode or burn away, i.e. car contact breaker points, light switches, etc.) A meter would give insufficient energy to cause this, therefore readings may not represent what happens under use.
I see where you're coming from Geoff, but its exactly this variability in the controls and the corrosion/wear of the switch which leads to surprisingly large variations in DC resistance across the switch. I measured each of the resistors and they were all well within tolerance (expect for the ones I replaced) but the switches unless stripped and cleaned will result in quite major differences between units...impossible with old un-renovated units to get them sounding the same in theory. However, if they sound ok and can be adjusted to personal tastes, then that's all that matters for the individual.
montesquieu
28-01-2013, 15:41
I've just picked up a set of Dave Slagle autoformers from Shuggy that replicate, using a high quality transformer core, what the old switchable inductors do - I believe Joe may have a set too?
I'll be sending a package off to Nick G to work his magic on my existing crossovers as soon as some new, better quality binding posts get to me.
I haven't missed the old Tannoy variable settings (when I had my custom ones done I went for fixed inductors, like Marco) but by all accounts Dave's solution should in theory be superior to the fixed ones in terms of sound quality. Am going to explore top of the line caps as well.
I'll be interested to learn what you think of the New x-overs Tom. I ended up using the services of Mark Picher who has a reputation for very good design and construction (he was recommended by none other than Lockwood Audio).
The Veneer's finally arrived:cool:
Going to attempt to veneer one of the cabs this evening and if I don't mess it up I'll post some picks later (always sets the nerves off when I'm handling veneer...especially at what the stuff costs these days).
First of the cabs veneered in Sapele to give a nice gentle contrast with the antique-teak of the main cabs. Just got to give it a final light sand to bring the grain out a little and get a nice smooth finish before a few light coats of Dutch oil:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6125_zps9cb55fd4.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6126_zps2fb8b8c4.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6128_zps5331f212.jpg
walpurgis
29-01-2013, 11:45
It's all beginning to look rather majestic, as big Tannoys do. I recommend putting the family crest on the front of the plinths just for that finishing touch. They should certainly look the part once you polish them. No doubt they have a very imposing presence when you walk into the room.
montesquieu
29-01-2013, 11:49
First of the cabs veneered in Sapele to give a nice gentle contrast with the antique-teak of the main cabs. Just got to give it a final light sand to bring the grain out a little and get a nice smooth finish before a few light coats of Dutch oil:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6125_zps9cb55fd4.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6126_zps2fb8b8c4.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6128_zps5331f212.jpg
Hmmm not sure of the look here, Paul. I'd have painted the ply black to de-emphasise the plinth element and throw attention to onto cabinets themselves.The veneer rather draws the eye to the plinth section.
I'd rather have a nice piece of timber grain to look at than a plain painted surface Tom so I guess its a personal thing really. I will be using a slightly golden stained Danish Oil so it will come out a little darker and with a more honeyed look when done.
Ammonite Audio
29-01-2013, 16:23
They are not Dave Slagle autoformers - they are solely the work of Brian Sowter (http://www.sowter.co.uk/), who kindly reverse-engineered the original design for me, from first principles using various inductance and resistance measurements posted around the web. It was not just a matter of winding the autoformer taps using those measurements - he understood what the original Tannoy designer intended and did the calculations from there. Very clever and extremely helpful chap!
I've just picked up a set of Dave Slagle autoformers from Shuggy that replicate, using a high quality transformer core, what the old switchable inductors do - I believe Joe may have a set too?
I'll be sending a package off to Nick G to work his magic on my existing crossovers as soon as some new, better quality binding posts get to me.
I haven't missed the old Tannoy variable settings (when I had my custom ones done I went for fixed inductors, like Marco) but by all accounts Dave's solution should in theory be superior to the fixed ones in terms of sound quality. Am going to explore top of the line caps as well.
montesquieu
29-01-2013, 16:29
They are not Dave Slagle autoformers - they are solely the work of Brian Sowter (http://www.sowter.co.uk/), who kindly reverse-engineered the original design for me, from first principles using various inductance and resistance measurements posted around the web. It was not just a matter of winding the autoformer taps using those measurements - he understood what the original Tannoy designer intended and did the calculations from there. Very clever and extremely helpful chap!
Sorry Hugo, brain not engaged when I was typing. Brian Sowter of course.
Right...a little more progress. In between jobs and visitors I managed to get the second plinth veneered, trimmed and sanded. Then gave both veneeres a final rub down with fine sandpaper so they're now ready for the final finish which will darken them and bring out the grain:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6131_zps76f53008.jpg
Lockwood Audio have the drivers and when I spoke to them today were building up new cones/voicecoil assemblies for me, so it shouldn't be too long before I see them back and ready for action.
walpurgis
30-01-2013, 00:39
Hmmm not sure of the look here, Paul. I'd have painted the ply black to de-emphasise the plinth element and throw attention to onto cabinets themselves.The veneer rather draws the eye to the plinth section.
Hi Tom,
that's a nice system you have there. Bet the Leben is a match made in heaven with the GRFs. I'd like to hear that.
Geoff.
julesd68
30-01-2013, 00:43
When you've finished the speakers Paul, I suggest you start on the carpet :rfl:
montesquieu
30-01-2013, 01:08
Hi Tom,
that's a nice system you have there. Bet the Leben is a match made in heaven with the GRFs. I'd like to hear that.
Geoff.
No probs to drop over sometime you aren't that far away :)
Yes it is a wonderful match.
In fact the performance of the Leben and the Tube Distinctions KT88 amp I had previously is very similar and both are wonderful matches for 15in MGs.
The Leben has perhaps a touch more romantic creaminess about it (almost single ended in character, though without the bass troubles) which works really well with my diet of chamber music, lieder, piano etc, while the TD majored on a wonderful, large-scale sound (though not without oodles of detail, nuance and musical bounce) that matched the Tannoys really well. But that perhaps makes too much of their differences, both are pretty wonderful with Tannoys.
In the end it was a synergy thing that swung it, the Leben just works fabulously with my Puresound L10.
Interestingly I also acquired at the same time the Leben RS28C preamp (now sold on), which didn't nearly have the same synergy with the Leben 660p as the L10, over-emphasising the timbre aspect at the expense of drive, which resulted in a relative enfeeblement.
However the Leben pre did work spiffingly well with the TD (restraining its exhuberance a little and adding just a shade more delicacy into its abilities with instrumental timbre - again not that that was lacking in the first place.
All very odd. I'm glad I was able to run all four bits of kit together in combination and choose what worked best with the big Tannoys.
Nice one, Tom. Sounds like you've got some real synergy going on there. All you need now is a Copper amp, which will combine the traits of the Leben and the TD AoS amp, giving you the best of both worlds! ;)
You need to haul your ass up to Ian's, mate, and hear the Copper amp (and his system). Rest assured it'll redefine what you already know about big Tannoy DCs and the best amps to drive them... :trust:
Paul those babies are starting to look really good!
Marco.
When you've finished the speakers Paul, I suggest you start on the carpet :rfl:
After that the wallpaper:ner: seriously Paul the speakers are looking loverly, do keep up the blog, will you be comparing them to the Turnberry's? Mmmmm Turnberry's.
Some more progress:
Stands rubbed down and stained a teak colour and lacquered. They now blend in better. Internal faces of plinth sealed with primer and 2mm bitumastic sheeting cut to size and fixed to internal faces to damp down any resonance. Seems to have done a good job as when rapped, the plinths no longer ring like a drum!
New Oak faced binding post plates cut and drilled to fit over the gap where the existing cross-overs were bolted.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6138_zps3abf22be.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6139_zps388298a8.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6134_zps3e3f8a91.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6136_zps574cda54.jpg
Have started rubbing the main cabinets down gently with wire wool and Danish Oil just to clean them up and restore the finish to as new. So far have spent a few hours rubbing the cabs down and have two coats of Danish oil applied. First rub down took a lot of muck and excess polish off, second coat went down clear. All historical scratches and blemishes removed and cabinets starting to look factory fresh. I've also cleaned the grilles using car upholstery cleaning foam and a damp sponge, then glued a small woven ribbon to the top left of each grille for ease of removal (as most people end up ripping the Tannoy badges out as they pull on those to remove the grilles!). You can now see the sheen on top of the cabinets:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6141_zpse9acc42a.jpg
The Black Adder
01-02-2013, 10:34
The autoformers Hugo got made make a big difference, quite astonishingly so but the circuit does need a tweek along with the type of components used as I'm sure Marco will testify make a substantial difference too.
Much like Marco's XO I use duelund cast resistors but also PIO and a PLIO caps in certain positions. I found that these make for a much more less fatiguing listen but still has a powerful sound with nice sub bass and keeps the delicate Tannoy sound.
montesquieu
01-02-2013, 11:04
The autoformers Hugo got made make a big difference, quite astonishingly so but the circuit does need a tweek along with the type of components used as I'm sure Marco will testify make a substantial difference too.
Much like Marco's XO I use duelund cast resistors but also PIO and a PLIO caps in certain positions. I found that these make for a much more less fatiguing listen but still has a powerful sound with nice sub bass and keeps the delicate Tannoy sound.
Really interesting Joe .. did you do these tweaks yourself or was it Nick G?
Rare Bird
01-02-2013, 12:05
Stands rubbed down and stained a teak colour and lacquered.
:doh:
The Black Adder
01-02-2013, 13:15
Really interesting Joe .. did you do these tweaks yourself or was it Nick G?
I remade the crossovers that Nick did for me but obviously with Nick's knowledge. New boards etc. I went through some serious listening sessions and found a combination of components that I felt brought out the best in the speakers.
I really enjoyed doing it. Now the sound is so much more balanced and precise.
Looking really good, Paul... A proper job! :)
:doh:
Wanted them to blend in more which they now do.
I'll save any further updates until they are completed as there seems to be several discussions going on at once on this thread now none of which relate to the restoration of these beauties.
The Black Adder
01-02-2013, 17:09
Wanted them to blend in more which they now do.
I'll save any further updates until they are completed as there seems to be several discussions going on at once on this thread now none of which relate to the restoration of these beauties.
True, sorry for partly hijacking there, Paul.
How easy is it to veneer? I'd love to do it, I've got a few projects myself I'd like to do eventually?
Are you going to brace the cabs at all? It worked on some Lancasters I had although those cabs had other shortcomings regarding design. I'd leave the internal damping as-is though, sure you will.
True, sorry for partly hijacking there, Paul.
How easy is it to veneer? I'd love to do it, I've got a few projects myself I'd like to do eventually?
Are you going to brace the cabs at all? It worked on some Lancasters I had although those cabs had other shortcomings regarding design. I'd leave the internal damping as-is though, sure you will.
It's not too difficult really, it just takes a little care and patience. The problem arises when you use wood stain as some veneers (such as the one I used) take up more stain in some areas than others leaving a blotchy appearance so I may have to strip one of the panels I've done and start again.
I wont add any bracing but will replace some of the internal damping as the foam Tannoy used is totally ineffective at preventing LF standing waves. I've added some long lambswool wadding to the base and rear panels. the front baffle has no damping at all and I may add some below the drive unit.
The Black Adder
01-02-2013, 18:01
Cool... well you are using the best regarding the damping with lambs wool. Should be a great sound.
Rare Bird
02-02-2013, 08:17
Wanted them to blend in more which they now do.
I'll save any further updates until they are completed as there seems to be several discussions going on at once on this thread now none of which relate to the restoration of these beauties.
Why on earth do people stain woods! :scratch:
To radically alter the appearance of some wood you don't like in its current state? :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
02-02-2013, 09:08
Nop do not agree at all.
Lol... I don't like staining woods either, dude.
I'd far rather buy something made of wood that I liked in the first place, and wax it, iif necessary, to bring out the grain (I like using Liberon clear wax), than 'tart up' something not particularly nice, with staining, in order to try and make it look better, when in reality all it ends up looking like is rather artificial - although I'm not saying that's what Paul has achieved.
However, it depends on your specific needs and how much you want to spend on a particular project. I admire and applaud your desire for perfection, but not everyone is like you :)
Marco.
Its personal tase and does not reflect either the quality of the veneer chosen or the standards of workmanship. I made it clear that I wanted a close match for the original Teak but could not get a veneer to match which was certified from sustainable sources and I won't use non-sustainable or non-certified timbers. The Sapele was too light in colour and as Tom pointed out, in its natural state drew too much attention to itself. Some people might have liked that but it looked too disjointed to my eyes so my intention all along was to stain it to match the main cabs. I can tell you that in the flesh, it blends beautifully, so the intent was carried through.
Normally I'd agree about not staining timbers (I usually oil them or wax them and whilst they inevitably darken, they remain natural with the grain emphasised). In this case, that was not the intention. I'm happy with the end result.
This picture sums up the result, and whilst some may not like it, I'd bet most would agree its a good match:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6139_zps388298a8.jpg
Close up of the main cabs which have had the original finish stripped back, all scratches removed and 3 coats of Danish Oil:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6150_zps2fa7012a.jpg
Wadding going in:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6151_zpsd9e72847.jpg
oscarsaudio
02-02-2013, 14:01
Paul , as long as your get your veneers from a reputable source then you should be ok ,I'm 99% sure my normal supplier stocks verified teak.Its the rich Arabs and Chinese who are using a lot of the rarer woods at the moment I know a guy who helped do an Arab's room in solid rose wood (book shelves desk skirting etc).
Anyway looking good when are you hoping to get the drivers back.
Rare Bird
02-02-2013, 14:19
I'm not being funny Paul but do realise how much solid teak timber went into Gresley's Railway coaches from 1920's-40's how much Teak veneer was actually used in the 1960's/70's for furniture, i doubt a bit of veneers gonna save the world! If you don't buy any someone else will, all you have done is cut your nose of to spite your face so to speak.
Paul , as long as your get your veneers from a reputable source then you should be ok ,I'm 99% sure my normal supplier stocks verified teak.Its the rich Arabs and Chinese who are using a lot of the rarer woods at the moment I know a guy who helped do an Arab's room in solid rose wood (book shelves desk skirting etc).
Anyway looking good when are you hoping to get the drivers back.
Hi Oscar
That's true. I used a trusted supplier for these but must admit I did find getting the veneer I wanted as certified was difficult. Could have tried harder as I'm sure you're right but TBH I'm pretty happy with the results and the veneer went down very well. It was a nice quality cut.
Hoping to have the drivers back Tuesday or Wednesday along with the crossovers so I can get the things assembled and hopefully hooked up next week. It's been a costly exercise but worth it to see these restored. They'll be better than when brand new, from the crossovers, to the wiring, voice coils used and cones used, plus the cabs have had days of work lavished on them.
I'm not being funny Paul but do realise how much solid teak timer went into Gresley's Railway coaches from 1920's-40's how much Teak veneer was actually used in the 1960's/70's for furniture, i doubt a bit of veneers gonna save the world! If you don't buy any someone else will, all you have done is cut your nose of to spite your face so to speak.
True but you have to draw the line somewhere and I am a person of principle, so if I have cut my nose off, so be it. It's really not that important to me to be honest as I do like what I've ended up with and I'm sure if ever I come to sell these on, the prospective buyer will be delighted. Very, very few vintage Tannoys are found in this "as new" condition unless treated to the expense and time needed and that's usually reflected in some of the selling prices these days.
oscarsaudio
02-02-2013, 15:22
I'm not being funny Paul but do realise how much solid teak timber went into Gresley's Railway coaches from 1920's-40's how much Teak veneer was actually used in the 1960's/70's for furniture, i doubt a bit of veneers gonna save the world! If you don't buy any someone else will, all you have done is cut your nose of to spite your face so to speak.
I can sort of see where your coming from , but would you have this same view if it were Ivory ?
Trees are just as important , the problem is we cut far to many down years ago and some of the trees take hundreds of years to fully mature.
Where possible its all ways good practice to use a non endangered species.IMO
Paul,was there any reason for making the base smaller than the speakers?
Just think they would have looked nicer if they had been the same dimensions as the cab or slightly bigger.
Nice work BTW.
Paul,was there any reason for making the base smaller than the speakers?
Just think they would have looked nicer if they had been the same dimensions as the cab or slightly bigger.
Nice work BTW.
Thanks Stu
the original plinths on Tannoys are usually stepped in (at least on these and on my Turnberrys....same design). All I did was to extend them by 250mm to keep the same design which allows for someone returning them to standard (with a little work), but yes, with hindsight it may have looked better. Nothing to prevent some more laminating to double panel thickness which would achieve the same result but in the flesh they do look ok so I'll leave as-is. I've done these for myself really and everyone has different tastes so I'm sure not everyone will like the way I've done them.
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