Anybody have the Funk Firm FX-1200 arm? [Archive]

kininigin

16-09-2012, 20:35

hmmm...lightweight in the lower registers? that's a little worrying... I listen to a lot of bass-heavy tunes, 70s dub etc...
Still, hopefully will have the chance to check out the sound for myself in the next couple of weeks. I will bear that in mind, thanks.

I like you mainly listen to 'bass-heavy music' and currently use a Jelco SA 750D with a US made (this is important!!) SC35C.This combination is great for dub ect.I don't know if the Funk arm is a little light weight in the lower registers,but if so,i can definitely recommend this combo.The (US) SC35C has very tight and deep bass.

Alternatively,if you wanted to use a MC,you could go for a Denon DL-103 with a decent sut.I plan to go this route in the next year or two,as the DL-103 is similiar to the SC35C in presentation,only with more detail and finesse.I haven't heard one by the way,but reading up on them and listening to peoples views who have lots of experience with said combo,it sounds like just the ticket.

Either combo would come in cheaper than the Funk arm (if you stay at about £500 or less for the sut).

Just a couple of alternatives to think about :)

I should add as well,that a Goldring G800,with a re-tip or new cantilever should also be considered.

A couple of links on the SC35C and G800.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12745&highlight=SC35C

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10413&highlight=SC35C They're not the same link by the way,not sure why it says SC35C at the end of the second one :scratch:

sq225917

16-09-2012, 21:24

Like I said, it could be his set-up, a demo is always recommended.

Canetoad

17-09-2012, 07:32

I like you mainly listen to 'bass-heavy music' and currently use a Jelco SA 750D with a US made (this is important!!) SC35C.This combination is great for dub ect.I don't know if the Funk arm is a little light weight in the lower registers,but if so,i can definitely recommend this combo.The (US) SC35C has very tight and deep bass.

Alternatively,if you wanted to use a MC,you could go for a Denon DL-103 with a decent sut.I plan to go this route in the next year or two,as the DL-103 is similiar to the SC35C in presentation,only with more detail and finesse.I haven't heard one by the way,but reading up on them and listening to peoples views who have lots of experience with said combo,it sounds like just the ticket.

Either combo would come in cheaper than the Funk arm (if you stay at about £500 or less for the sut).

Just a couple of alternatives to think about :)

I should add as well,that a Goldring G800,with a re-tip or new cantilever should also be considered.

A couple of links on the SC35C and G800.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12745&highlight=SC35C

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10413&highlight=SC35C They're not the same link by the way,not sure why it says SC35C at the end of the second one :scratch:

Darren,

Any idea what the best replacement stylus for an SC35C is? :scratch:

kininigin

17-09-2012, 13:25

Darren,

Any idea what the best replacement stylus for an SC35C is? :scratch:

Hi Bernie,

I would get one from jico,you can get the standard one or the SAS,which is quite abit more money.

I had the standard one after i had damaged the stock stylus,it was ok from what i remember,but didn't have it long (as i gave it away) and i'm not sure if i tried it in the US SC35C.

I wouldn't go for the kosher one made by shure personally.The non SAS jico was about £15 delievered from japan.

I have wanted to try the SAS stylus,but i'm unsure if it will work optimally with the Jelco arm i have,as the non SAS styli are low complience and i think the SAS are high complience.

Maybe someone who has a SAS could confirm?

Just to add the guy from vinylengine(who i first noticed talk about the US version),said that the jico replacements were just as good as the US made ones!!

kininigin

17-09-2012, 13:38

I listen to a lot of bass-heavy tunes, 70s dub etc...

I've just bagged myself a copy of Scientist Meets The Space Invaders :D Been after this for awhile but prices have been quite high,but they have seemed to have dropped abit now.

Canetoad

17-09-2012, 14:13

I have a US version but the stylus is broken, so I got it cheap. I'll try a standard Jico stylus I think.

Cheers for the info. :)

kininigin

17-09-2012, 17:41

Ahh right,so you haven't heard it yet then?

nickbaba

18-09-2012, 07:07

I've just bagged myself a copy of Scientist Meets The Space Invaders :D.
Choons! I have been slowly collecting the full set of those 80s Cartoon Cover Scientist Lps...think I have them all now. Fav is still ...Evil Curse of the Vampires!
Dub on vinyl is the way to go.
Thanks for the info about the Jelco combi, Darren... As far as carts are concerned I have a Dynavector DV20X which I have been v happy with on my re-wired stock arm... Lots of play left on it so it will get transplanted onto whichever arm I eventually choose.

kininigin

18-09-2012, 12:49

Choons! I have been slowly collecting the full set of those 80s Cartoon Cover Scientist Lps...think I have them all now. Fav is still ...Evil Curse of the Vampires!
Dub on vinyl is the way to go.
Thanks for the info about the Jelco combi, Darren... As far as carts are concerned I have a Dynavector DV20X which I have been v happy with on my re-wired stock arm... Lots of play left on it so it will get transplanted onto whichever arm I eventually choose.

This is what i'm doing only have 2 so far though,the other being scientist encounters Pac-Man.I have plenty of king tubby to make up for it though :eyebrows:

I had a quick look at the specs of your cart,seems that it's a low compliance (spelt correctly this time :lol:) type,so MAY benifit from a higher mass arm and be a better match in getting the most out the DV20X

I could be talking out my arse though! :D

nickbaba

18-09-2012, 14:39

I had a quick look at the specs of your cart,seems that it's a low compliance (spelt correctly this time :lol:) type,so MAY benifit from a higher mass arm and be a better match in getting the most out the DV 20
Hi Darren - sorry but not sure I have understood what you mean...
Did you mean that my cart would possibly benefit from a higher mass arm than the 750?
Or did you mean that the 750 is a higher mass arm than the stock Techie arm, and therefore the cart would possibly benefit from the change to a 750? :scratch:

kininigin

18-09-2012, 15:36

Marco

18-09-2012, 17:05

A Jelco SA-750 would be fine, in terms of effective mass, for a DV20X, as would a Funk Firm FX-1200.

The advantage of the latter (apart from it being overall a better tonearm) is that Arthur could tailor the effective mass of the arm, in order to optimise it with the cartridge of your choice, simply by raising the mass of the armtube and/or its headshell.

As for an answer, Nick, to your opening question, I'd say a big YES! More people should show interest in trying this arm, as in my view (although I haven't actually used it) it has all the makings of being a superb design. After all, the (highly acclaimed) FX-R uses a Rega arm as its donor for parts, so why shouldn't the Technics arm work equally as well as a donor, for the FX-1200?

Arthur cleverly addresses the fundamental weaknesses in both the Rega and Technics arms, as being caused by their somewhat resonant armtubes, and fixes it by replacing them with essentially a carbon-fibre one, which incidentally, is not a cheap item to manufacture, commercially.

Quite simply, if the FX-1200 had been around when I first got my Techy and messed around with rewiring and fluid-damping the stock arm, I'd definitely have given it a go! :exactly:

Marco.

nickbaba

18-09-2012, 22:34

Thanks Marco for your answer to my original question - interesting also to hear that you haven't tried the fx1200 out either, as a previous poster thought you may have done.
But I am definitely going to check it out before I make any decisions - hopefully I will have the chance to try out a fully Funk Firm modded Techie in the next couple of weeks, so I will post my impressions here when/if that happens.
As you mentioned about re-wiring and damping the stock arm,Marco, it did strike me that the fx1200 upgrade will also not be damped, as it only replaces the head/arm/cables and uses the stock Techie arm mount... I wonder if it would also benefit from damping, eg with the KAB system?
Would be great also to use Yannis's Gaia phono cable on the fx1200 - I didn't ask the FF what they use for their external phono cables, but I imagine the silver cables must be an upgrade?

kininigin

20-09-2012, 20:05

I've just bagged myself a copy of Scientist Meets The Space Invaders :D Been after this for awhile but prices have been quite high,but they have seemed to have dropped abit now.

Just seen a copy of this go for £45 delivered on ebay :eek:

Got my original pressing for £21 delivered including a clean on a keith monks rcm :D

Patience is a virtue!!

nickbaba

20-09-2012, 21:42

That's an excellent price m8 - nice one.

I haunted eBay for a while, passing on a few auctions until I managed to bag my copy of Scientist/Vampires for £28 which I was pretty proud of at the time, considering they go for 40+... beautiful copy too.

Mind you I have also been stung for some rare dub vinyl in my time, so swings and roundabouts.... :rolleyes:

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, would be interested to read your top 10 best-dub-on-vinyl list...or should we start another thread somewhere else?

jagdesign

21-09-2012, 21:39

I've almost finished making my own, apologies for the image quality. TBC :eyebrows:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s71/jagdesign/149FA7BA-CC3D-4D28-9D6D-8539436E02A6-1054-00000201350BFFE2_zps53074b8a.jpg

Marco

21-09-2012, 21:44

Wow, James - that looks superb! :eek:

Tell us how you went about making it, then - and how far is it off from you listening to it? :)

Marco.

RobbieGong

21-09-2012, 21:51

Wow, James - that looks superb! :eek:

Tell us how you went about making it, then - and how far is it off from you listening to it? :)

Marco.

Ditto !!!

nickbaba

21-09-2012, 21:54

...aaaand the thread is back on track!

Very nice work m8 ... Hope you will post us a report when it's ready!!!

jagdesign

21-09-2012, 22:21

Cheers guys. I bought a tatty donor sl1210 to mess around with some of the parts, but when I got the deck home I noticed the armtube was bent. I considered buying a replacement Technics armtube, then realised I could go carbon for not much more, kerching!

Currently it doesn't have the same cross section as the FXR armtube, I'll play around with this at some point, but otherwise it's pretty similar. I didn't really want to copy the headshell area, it's just the geometry needed to get the job done results in something very Funkesque.

It's virtually finished, just need to sort the rest of the deck!

wiicrackpot

22-09-2012, 19:55

Had a sore experience with PT stuff, but i've moved on so won't diss it in open forum.

chelsea

22-09-2012, 20:39

Marco

23-09-2012, 08:31

Brilliant James, way better than anything AK can produce. :thumbsup:

Erm, as good as James' effort is, I wouldn't quite go that far!

Andy, I think you're allowing whatever unfortunate experience you had with PT to cloud your opinion somewhat of Arthur's abilities. If you knew the man properly, as I do, you wouldn't be saying that.

Arthur K is probably one of the best technical inventors in audio, in recent times, and the success and worldwide acclaim Funk Firm products have had worldwide, confirms this.

Marco.

Marco

23-09-2012, 08:35

Excellent.
Always seems to be touted as super expensive.

It is, when you have to manufacture designs to consistently high standards and produce them commercially, as a business, with all the costs that this entails, including factoring in dealer margins and VAT! ;)

Marco.

wiicrackpot

23-09-2012, 09:02

Andy, I think you're allowing whatever unfortunate experience you had with PT to cloud your opinion somewhat of Arthur's abilities. If you knew the man properly, as I do, you wouldn't be saying that.

Arthur K is probably one of the best technical inventors in audio, in recent times, and the success and worldwide acclaim Funk Firm products have had worldwide, confirms this.

Marco.
Marco,

I am not questioning Arthur's integrity as a person and agree with you he is a forward thinker of all things audio pass & present, i wish Funk Firm every success.

P.S. i tried to alter the contents of my original post but no 'edit' button anymore, :scratch: feel free to delete if you wish.

Marco

23-09-2012, 09:11

Hi Andy,

No problem. I just felt that your statement was a little unfair. There's no need for it to be deleted, if that's how you genuinely feel, as we don't practice censorship here, but if you agree with me and would rather that your post was removed, then I can do that for you :)

Marco.

wiicrackpot

23-09-2012, 09:45

Yes Marco, go ahead and wave your wand on post # 31 and #32, that'll put it back on track. :)

Marco

23-09-2012, 10:17

Done :)

Marco.

FunkArt

23-09-2012, 17:43

What i meant was,a tonearm with a higher mass than the technics,may be of benifit.

You may be better off asking a more experienced member regarding this though.I'm a little unsure wether adding more mass,at the headshell end is enough to get an ideal match,or if the overall mass of the tonearm would be better.

Can someone help me out with this please? :cool:

Question: What is the problem you “see” or actually hear? Arms are deemed good or bad because one can hear something going on.
It turns out that arms are subtle, sensitive devices. This shouldn’t come as too great a surprise given that arms are long, lightly built, simply supported tubular cantilevers, making them prone to resonate badly when excited - wind-chimes anyone? And cartridges do excite them; as mechanical groove energy pours into the arm, the tubes bend about and lose energy. In so doing, instead of the idealised passive support, arms are now a non-linear mechanical impedance to the cartridge, which, for want of a better description, gets the giggles and image focus is lost. To make matters worse, cartridges are not a constant - low compliance, high compliance, bright sounding, over damped bass, sensitivity to loading, all have a significant bearing on the final sound and on different arms.
What a nightmare.

Well, damp the tubes, dear Liza!
Conventional damping is not optimal leaving energy to re-release later down the line - this adage from years of old has never been more true. It frequently manifests itself as mid-band fluffing.
Leave the tube undamped…and the results are no better. Again you can hear it.

Physically fixing the arm (the “termination”) opens up a whole new hornets nest. Different material constructs affect what is going on, from a thick splodgy bottom to something shriekingly bright and all from an arm design previously considered well-behaved.
It shows how easily a relatively small change brings unexpected audible differences. Neutrality must be maintained…but not to the point that the life and soul has been stripped away - a criticism often flung at some rather well respected designs.
Make it massive and system resonance is constantly excited by warps, increasing both stylus and record wear.
Nor must it be so low in mass that it is affected by the very music it is reproducing.
The brief to design and develop an arm for “universal” use is daunting.

Ultimately, the designer must decide on the balance they believe best delivers.
Designers, we may be but we became so through our passion as enthusiasts. If I may digress, when we developed the 1200 platter, we listened to it at length. I am certain this holds just as true for the likes of Mike New with his platter(s) as us. Whatever our apparent differences, I’m sure that at 3am, in the dead of night, “hang the kit, I simply want to listen and immerse myself in the music” is the order of the night. At that point it has to sound as good as he or we can get it to sound or the moment is lost and back to the drawing board.
That’s what brought him and us and others into the game and now we get paid to experiment with our toys, day in and day out to make them as good as we can.

FX-R and FX-1200’s aim to increase the rigidity means that energy positively rushes to the base and the last thing that one wants is for the performance to go all blancmange like or a sonic laser being piercing at your ears due to poor termination.

To avoid the risk of an embarrassing cotton wool performance, FX-R has been balanced in the style of Pink Triangle - agility, speed and delicacy of touch. In this way, we managed to retain the life of the music even when an obvious cartridge mismatch is made - That someone has commented on a “light” (as opposed to BRIGHT!) balance, is more of a compliment than a negative.
(To us, that tells me more about the mounting and I grin that it is still well-behaved.)

FX1200, however, is not FX-R. Quite simply, it is a different animal.
Its 1200/1210 mounting is a known quantity. This has permitted us to voice it more specifically with the characteristic of 1200/1210 in mind.

The Techie and Jelco are both high-ish medium mass arms and so their sonic signature aside, could easily match cartridges like DL103 which benefit from a 20 gm effective mass arm.

Given the Himalayan responses of most arm’s curves, from the foregoing how can we predict just what an arm will do with the addition of mass to compensate for low mass?
The danger is that by adding mass to the headshell, the tube is further excited in a hitherto relatively benign part of the resonance characteristic, with what new effect? Brightness? mid-band suppression? Bass weight?

FX-R and FX-1200 are intentionally relatively low-mass arms - hence their relevance here. How do they work with mass added to the head?
In their design and subsequent engineering, allowance has been made for extra mass to be added without the system going totally off like a jelly at the bottom end, or nasty surprises further up the range.
A well-behaved characteristic, linearity as we alter the working conditions with different devices, is what we are after,.

This topic will take on more relevance with the launch of our new F5 arm which is about to be released, when it will be seen instantly that this particular aspect comes centre stage with regards to applying tacking force.
(those who are fluent in German could do worse than have a look at this month’s LP magazine for pix) The rest will have to wait just a little longer for the website to be updated.

In conclusion, developing FX-R and beyond has opened my eyes (ears?) to conventional wisdom and I am afraid it is really is a suck-it-and-see, with little or no idea of what the trade-offs are. A more rigorous approach is needed as we scour ever deeper into our precious grooves.

nickbaba

23-09-2012, 22:00

:youtheman::youtheman::youtheman:

WOStantonCS100

23-09-2012, 22:21

:) :)

Marco

24-09-2012, 09:24

Ultimately, the designer must decide on the balance they believe best delivers.
Designers, we may be but we became so through our passion as enthusiasts. If I may digress, when we developed the 1200 platter, we listened to it at length. I am certain this holds just as true for the likes of Mike New with his platter(s) as us. Whatever our apparent differences, I’m sure that at 3am, in the dead of night, “hang the kit, I simply want to listen and immerse myself in the music” is the order of the night. At that point it has to sound as good as he or we can get it to sound or the moment is lost and back to the drawing board.
That’s what brought him and us and others into the game and now we get paid to experiment with our toys, day in and day out to make them as good as we can.

Excellent, Arthur, and thanks for the insight.

The above alone shows why, when it's possible, I will always go the bespoke-optimised route, with audio equipment, via the use of products from specialist manufacturers, capable of lateral thinking, simply because their passion and dedication to the cause is second to none, and so their products are worth one's hard-earned financial investment :)

Marco.

sq225917

24-09-2012, 11:39

jagdesign

24-09-2012, 20:16

You can't beat a bit of spiral wound carbon, did you fill it with anything?

Nope, not at the moment. I'm going to try it unfilled first as the effective mass has worked out fairly close to the Technics' original. If I've got time and can find something reasonably suitablte, I'd like to try some aluminium extrusion in there.

kininigin

01-10-2012, 20:07

FX-R and FX-1200 are intentionally relatively low-mass arms - hence their relevance here. How do they work with mass added to the head?
In their design and subsequent engineering, allowance has been made for extra mass to be added without the system going totally off like a jelly at the bottom end, or nasty surprises further up the range.
A well-behaved characteristic, linearity as we alter the working conditions with different devices, is what we are after,.

Thanks for the explanation arthur,it certainly helps with my understanding on the subject,which is admittedly quite limited!

So can the extra mass allowance,be reveresed and if so,can this be done by the owner? I assume it's not just adding a headshell weight?

CageyH

09-02-2014, 09:36

I'm at the point now where I need a Headshell weight for my FX-1200. It seems that the arm has a requirement for more than a 6.5g minimum cartridge with the standard counterweight. My MP-150 is only 6.5g, so I need something in the region of 2g
The cheapest option is the Technics 3g Headshell weight, but is this the best? I currently have 1.7g of weight added by the use of screws in the headshell slot. It works, but I know I can do better.
Any recommendations for a decent weight? I have seen the Isokinetic Cartridge stabilisers in aluminium and brass. Which would be the best option for now, and if I am considering a MC cartridge later (such as the Denon DL-103) ?

Whilst on the topic of headshell weights, I came across these, which look interesting - African Blackwood Headshell spacer (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headcell-Damper-Denon-Cartridge-Mpingo-clubWOOD-/190506528284?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item2c5b12ee1c)

Marco

09-02-2014, 10:37

Hi Kevin,

Since you only need about 2g, I'd go for this, as it will also help reduce the ingress of vibration: http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=265

Not cheap (for what it is), but graphite is an excellent material for the intended purpose.

Marco.

CageyH

09-02-2014, 11:38

Thanks Marco. I'll have to check I have 3mm of VTA available.
However, I'm not sure I need to worry about ingress of vibration too much with the FX-1200? I know every little bit helps, but £49 for a little block of graphite seems to be a step into Audiophool territory!
If it made a massive difference, I would happily pay that, but what is to stop me fabricating one from 3mm carbon sheet?

They know it's expensive :eek: -
A reasonably priced addition to any turntable front end.

Marco

09-02-2014, 12:50

If it made a massive difference, I would happily pay that, but what is to stop me fabricating one from 3mm carbon sheet?

Nothing, of course, so why not try it? :)

I just like the idea of the Isokinetik device (as its professionally finished), which I suspect will be effective. I don't like sticking things that look 'home-made' onto any parts of my system. We're all different, though. Furthermore, all tonearms will benefit to some degree from added isolation.

If Stephen (worrasf) is obtaining benefit from placing washers between the cartridge and headshell of his Jelco SA-750, then there's no reason why other arms wouldn't benefit in some way, or a product such as that from Isokinetik. I'd be trying it myself, if I didn't use an SPU (with a built-in headshell).

Marco.

Andrei

09-02-2014, 21:21

I've almost finished making my own, apologies for the image quality. TBC :eyebrows:

Excellente!

CageyH

11-02-2014, 17:49

Talking about HDG products, what about these?

Graphite Headshell (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ISOKINETIK-GRAPHITE-THE-ULTIMATE-HEADSHELL-FOR-SME-JELCO-AND-ALL-HI-END-TONEARMS-/181170664910?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2e9cf5ce)

Puck (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ISOKINETIK-GRAPHITE-RECORD-PUCK-RECORD-STABILISER-A-MUST-HAVE-TURNTABLE-UPGRADE-/181175085217?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2ee068a1)

And Mat (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AudioNautes-HDG-High-Density-Graphite-Record-Turntable-Mat-NEW-10mm-/221290835786?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item3385f62f4a)

MCRU

11-02-2014, 18:09

Spam content deleted.

CageyH

11-02-2014, 18:17

That's a lot of money for a plastic headshell. :eek:
Personally if using CFRP, I would prefer the natural black colour.

Oldpinkman

12-02-2014, 18:05

CageyH

12-02-2014, 18:12

One of only 3? Quite an exclusive club
One of the other two was recently sold in Private exhibitions on a complete deck, so I guess that Arthur has the other one?

I have no real questions at the moment, as the guys at Funk have recently responded to my questions.
I have thought about a collet, but I may just get a different counterweight machined up, or modify a spare I have lying around.

As for the areas you mention, I'm not exactly sure where they are, but I'll have a look on the map. I don't regret decision about moving out here.

twotone

12-02-2014, 18:19

Kevin

I spoke to Arthur today and he tells me you have one of only 3 FX1200's and there will be no more. (My influence here, I fear - they are a distraction, and there is no reason apart from aesthetics that an FXR on a suitable armboard won't do every bit as good a job). I think if i were adding weight i would consider a collet close to the headshell on the tube. You are our closest prospective neighbour so far (Gordon and Alan being in the frozen wastes of France) - we are planning to move to Quillan or maybe Mirepoix eventually. Let me know if i can help with anything Funk

Richard

Me and my family went to Belveze Du Razes near Mirepoix about 2001, beautiful part of France but a lot of rain when we were there in July and judging by the food and the surrounding greenery there must be a fair bit of it there throughout the year.

Loved Carcassone too.

Tony

Marco

12-02-2014, 18:21

I spoke to Arthur today and he tells me you have one of only 3 FX1200's and there will be no more. (My influence here, I fear - they are a distraction, and there is no reason apart from aesthetics that an FXR on a suitable armboard won't do every bit as good a job).

I should've thought that the whole point of the FX1200, Richard, was to retain the basic looks of the stock Technics arm, whilst fixing what's essentially wrong with it (the resonant armtube) - and most importantly - retain the superb 'on the fly' VTA adjustment, none of which (apart from addressing the armtube deficiencies) is provided by an FXR!

Arthur's seriously missing a trick here, IMO, as if the FX1200 was marketed and sold properly to Technics aficionados (and priced competitively enough), it could quite quickly become the 'De facto standard' for many modified SL-1200s and 1210s, as there are loads of users who like the basic looks and functionality of the stock arm and wish to keep the Techy looking like a Techy, as much as possible.....

I get the distinct feeling that Arthur has turned his back on/become disheartened/lost interest in (delete as applicable) his Technics T/T related products, which IMO is not only a shame, but rather short-sighted. Sorry, but I have to be honest!

Marco.

CageyH

12-02-2014, 18:25

I see they are a little further south.
Weather last year in July was not good in this area.

Oldpinkman

12-02-2014, 18:45

I should've thought that the whole point of the FX-1200, Richard, was to retain the basic looks of the stock Technics arm, whilst fixing what's essentially wrong with it (the resonant armtube) - and most importantly - retain the superb 'on the fly' VTA adjustment, none of which (apart from addressing the armtube deficiencies) is provided by an FXR!

Arthur's seriously missing a trick here, IMO, as if the FX-1200 was marketed and sold properly to Technics aficionados (and priced competitively enough), it could quite quickly become the 'De facto standard' for many modified SL-1200s and 1210s, as there are loads of users who like the basic looks and functionality of the stock arm and wish to keep the Techy looking like a Techy, as much as possible.....

I get the distinct feeling that Arthur has turned his back on/become disheartened/lost interest in (delete as applicable) his Technics T/T related products, which IMO is not only a shame, but rather short-sighted. Sorry, but I have to be honest!

Marco.

You are probably right. He made 3 and got no repeat orders. Techies are a distraction from his core markets and products (and my PT project!!). The forum is full of Technics owners none of whom have a Funk Arm, express any interest in trying or seeing one, and appear perfectly happy with their units in spite of that - so where is the market? They are well served by Rega, Origon, SME, and others none of whom seem in any rush to release a product retains the looks of the stock arm - which I grant you has good enough bearings to justify a better arm tube. If folk want funk, they can stick an FXR on in the same way they stick a SME 309 on. If they don't want funk, bolting it onto a Technics arm bearing will make no difference.

His stress levels are much lower away from Technics modifications. :cool:

Oldpinkman

12-02-2014, 18:47

I see they are a little further south.
Weather last year in July was not good in this area.

Weather wasn't good in any area! Mirepoix shares your basic pattern - Quillan gets more of the mediteranean influence, although not as much as a tad further east like St Paul de Fenouillet. You should see the weather here in Yalding!

CageyH

12-02-2014, 19:10

Marco

12-02-2014, 19:25

You are probably right. He made 3 and got no repeat orders. Techies are a distraction from his core markets and products (and my PT project!!). The forum is full of Technics owners none of whom have a Funk Arm, express any interest in trying or seeing one, and appear perfectly happy with their units in spite of that - so where is the market?

As with anything in life, you reap what you sow. It seems pretty clear to me that Arthur's heart was never really in it (marketing or selling the FX1200 to its core customer base), which is precisely why there was little interest. It could've been so different had, for example, myself and/or Martin T, been sent an FX1200 to review (and if we considered it good, as I'm sure it would've been) to later promote the arm to 100s of Technics T/T users on AoS, not to mention plenty of others elsewhere.

Did Arthur even try to get the FX1200 reviewed in one of the magazines, either paper or on-line? I'm sure that David Price would've been interested, amongst others. You can't just expect such a niche product to become a success on its own - you have to be passionate about making it become a success!!

Trust me, had all of the above been correctly addressed, there would've been a (small) but significant market for the FX1200 - certainly enough to have made the proposition worthwhile, as after all, most of the products produced by The Funk Firm are rather 'specialist'/bespoke in nature, so one would imagine aren't exactly flying out the door in huge quantities! How many FXRs, out of interest, have been made and sold?

They are well served by Rega, Origon, SME, and others none of whom seem in any rush to release a product retains the looks of the stock arm - which I grant you has good enough bearings to justify a better arm tube. If folk want funk, they can stick an FXR on in the same way they stick a SME 309 on. If they don't want funk, bolting it onto a Technics arm bearing will make no difference.

You're missing the main point... The HUGE advantage of the FX1200 is that it was (to my knowledge) the only hi-end tonearm on the market that featured VTA adjustment 'on the fly'!! The original Technics 'wheel' design was executed beautifully. *That* was a massive selling point which was not properly capitalised on, and which no Rega or SME could offer.

His stress levels are much lower away from Technics modifications.

Well, that's certainly a positive, as I know that stress is something Arthur is prone to, due to often taking on more than he can realistically handle. He's certainly not alone in that regard, as many other designers/inventors suffer from precisely the same condition.

Incidentally, please don't take my comments in the wrong way. I'm rather fond of Arthur, and have been a long-time supporter and admirer of his (considerable) talents as an audio designer. It's simply that when I see mistakes being made, in a spirit of helpfulness, I feel that it's constructive to point them out.

Marco.

twotone

12-02-2014, 20:39

I see they are a little further south.
Weather last year in July was not good in this area.

I read the recent Antony Beavor D-Day which is an account of the Normandy Landings and the weather in France in that region in June/July/August 1944 was deplorable but pretty much typical I believe for those months in France.

I had ten days out of fourteen pissing it down in July in fact on Bastille day in Caracassone I thought I was back in Glasgow it was that bad. You can watch the firework celebrations from the motorway above the city (the motorway is closed to let people park and watch the celebrations on it) and that year you couldn't see the bleeding things for the rain and mist.

CageyH

12-02-2014, 20:42

I've experienced over 42 degrees C here in August. :eek:
I can also justify having a swimming pool in my back garden, unlike most people I know in Glasgow.

twotone

12-02-2014, 20:45

I've experienced over 42 degrees C here in August. :eek:
I can also justify having a swimming pool in my back garden, unlike most people I know in Glasgow.

We have web feet here Kevin, you really have to laugh at those folk in The South West of England moaning about a bit of rain:D

CageyH

12-02-2014, 20:47

twotone

12-02-2014, 21:00

My sister lived in Bearsden for a few years, and I have experienced the glorious weather you guys can have.
I've also been up a bit further north, and had pretty much all extremes thrown at me in one day.
I'm hoping for a better summer this year.

I'm going to Competa in Andalucia in July Kevin, we were there last year, great place about 20kms from the coast and 600ft up a mountain.

I love France and Italy but with Spain the weather is gauranteed and you need a bit of sun living in such a wet area mate however having said that last summer was the best we've had here since 1976.

Tony

Marco

12-02-2014, 21:04

Guys,

Whilst tales of sunny climates and foreign lands (well, Bearsden was mentioned), is all rather pleasant, let's watch the thread drift! ;)

Let's have more chat about the FX1200, please - cheers :)

Marco.

CageyH

12-02-2014, 21:51

With only three in existence, there is not much to talk about. :ner:

On my next trip back to the UK, if I pop to see my mate in Holywell I may have to see if a trip to Marco towers would be acceptable if I brought my Techie along for the ride? Probably one of the best chances you would have of hearing it. It doesn't have the Paul Hynes mods, but you would get a view of what the arm is capable of. Hopefully, I'll have a suitable platter by then, but I'll probably still be short of a top end cartridge.

Nothing is planned, but it's just a suggestion.

From what I saw, another FX-1200 will be in your locality soon anyway, so that would save me a 15 hour drive! It would be interesting to hear your opinion.

Marco

12-02-2014, 21:59

Sounds like a plan to me, Kevin! Make sure that you let me know when you're going to be in the area :)

Marco.

DarrenHW

13-02-2014, 08:49

From what I saw, another FX-1200 will be in your locality soon anyway, so that would save me a 15 hour drive! It would be interesting to hear your opinion.

Soon to be second member of the FX 1200 owners club here, just over a week to go! Have been watching this thread but had nothing constructive to add, I've only been to Paris and Versailles :). I will still have to source cart, mat and interconnect but will hopefully have it spinning in some fashion by March.

So as Kevin previously asked, where's the third? I know there was a demo model of the Funk Firm SL1210, Nickbaba on here was once in possession (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?20736-Funk-Firm-modified-1210-(FX-1200-arm-platter-amp-mat)-home-demo) and I can only guess HiFi Pig had the same TT for review (http://hifipig.com/the-funk-firm-technics-sl1200/), any insider info Oldpinkman?

Kevin - Earlier in this thread you said FF have responded to your questions, any info regarding recommended cartridges? Following on from Marco's earlier suggestion I'm considering a "nude" 103 R with either a Aluminium or Ebony body, will probably have to try both.

Marco

13-02-2014, 09:20

As with anything in life, you reap what you sow. It seems pretty clear to me that Arthur's heart was never really in it (marketing or selling the FX1200 to its core customer base), which is precisely why there was little interest. It could've been so different had, for example, myself and/or Martin T, been sent an FX1200 to review (and if we considered it good, as I'm sure it would've been) to later promote the arm to 100s of Technics T/T users on AoS, not to mention plenty of others elsewhere.

Did Arthur even try to get the FX1200 reviewed in one of the magazines, either paper or on-line? I'm sure that David Price would've been interested, amongst others. You can't just expect such a niche product to become a success on its own - you have to be passionate about making it become a success!!

Trust me, had all of the above been correctly addressed, there would've been a (small) but significant market for the FX1200 - certainly enough to have made the proposition worthwhile, as after all, most of the products produced by The Funk Firm are rather 'specialist'/bespoke in nature, so one would imagine aren't exactly flying out the door in huge quantities! How many FXRs, out of interest, have been made and sold?

You're missing the main point... The HUGE advantage of the FX1200 is that it was (to my knowledge) the only hi-end tonearm on the market that featured VTA adjustment 'on the fly'!! The original Technics 'wheel' design was executed beautifully. *That* was a massive selling point which was not properly capitalised on, and which no Rega or SME could offer.

Well, that's certainly a positive, as I know that stress is something Arthur is prone to, due to often taking on more than he can realistically handle. He's certainly not alone in that regard, as many other designers/inventors suffer from precisely the same condition.

Incidentally, please don't take my comments in the wrong way. I'm rather fond of Arthur, and have been a long-time supporter and admirer of his (considerable) talents as an audio designer. It's simply that when I see mistakes being made, in a spirit of helpfulness, I feel that it's constructive to point them out.

Marco.

Richard?

:popcorn:

Marco.

Oldpinkman

13-02-2014, 11:25

I thought the FX-R has adjustable VTA, just not quite so "on the fly"?

I have to be honest and say that it's the best arm I have heard - (my limited experience being a standard Technics Arm and the AO modified RB251).
For a giggle, I've just slapped an AT95E on, and boy does it sound musical. Sure it lacks detail compared to the AT150MLX, but what will an LP Gear Shibata stylus do for not a lot of money?
It's got me wondering...

You're right - piss easy VTA adjustment, but not "on the fly". It depends whether you spend time listening to music or fiddling with your equipment I guess, but I am pretty happy with a static VTA adjustment - as are most. (That is I can easily and quickly set VTA but not whilst playing a record) Don't worry - I've heard plenty of other arms. So have the professional reviewers who also rate this one of the very best all time. Its exceptional. :)

Andrei

13-02-2014, 11:27

Oldpinkman

13-02-2014, 11:37

Soon to be second member of the FX 1200 owners club here, just over a week to go! Have been watching this thread but had nothing constructive to add, I've only been to Paris and Versailles :). I will still have to source cart, mat and interconnect but will hopefully have it spinning in some fashion by March.

So as Kevin previously asked, where's the third? I know there was a demo model of the Funk Firm SL1210, Nickbaba on here was once in possession (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?20736-Funk-Firm-modified-1210-(FX-1200-arm-platter-amp-mat)-home-demo) and I can only guess HiFi Pig had the same TT for review (http://hifipig.com/the-funk-firm-technics-sl1200/), any insider info Oldpinkman?

Kevin - Earlier in this thread you said FF have responded to your questions, any info regarding recommended cartridges? Following on from Marco's earlier suggestion I'm considering a "nude" 103 R with either a Aluminium or Ebony body, will probably have to try both.

The arm will work with pretty much any cartridge except those with very high compliance - I can't think of any current models in that category. Careful taking cartridge recommendations from Arthur - he'll tell you what he thinks you want to hear. The 103 will work fine in it - AK has fitted one himself. Not my cup of tea, but it's not a cartridge arm mismatch issue. I just don't like cheap moving coils. Since I have the arm, and have been badgering Arthur for suggestions, he has used the Dynavector 20, he loves his Sony XL-55 but neither of us have a snowballs chance in hell finding one, and like me he rates the Goldring 1042 highly as a modestly priced device and suggests the 2300 2400 2500 are well worth trying too. For me, I have hopes that the new stylus on the U205 will do all I hope if it ever gets out of Parcelforce Coventry (2 days from Osaka to Coventry - 9 days in Parcelforce and counting). I have also heard his Decca London sound like only Decca Londons can, but its poor vertical compliance and my warped record collection are not a match made in heaven. Personally, if the Jico U205 fails (and I will be disappointed and surprised if it does) then I will be looking at trying the Zyx. I might just stick the Technics moving coil back in for another go, because with the tracking force reduced to 1.25 that was so nearly there. Confused? - join the club. Any cartridge will work. you'll hear the cartridge not the arm. The arm has the magic of not being there! It sounds - absent :)

Oldpinkman

13-02-2014, 11:52

This is indeed lamentable news - the FX arm is such a logical product. I have a Jelco 750D and I already miss the ease of VTA, especially as I have three headshell / cartridge combos to use. 'Promotion' is easier said than done, it takes time and time is a more valuable resource than money. To make the project successful would require a particular type of promotion / education. Potential buyers would have to understand that changing the armtube only was a viable option vis-à-vis a whole new tonearm. And that could be compounded by the whole new tonearm costing less in some cases. Not a difficult proposition for you or me or Darren but then we know of Funk's top shelf reputation.

The issue is bespoking. It is perfectly feasible to modify an arm sent for the purpose at a price similar to a stock item. But suppose the bearings are shagged, or the VTA jammed (common on the Technics arm). This all takes time for Arthur, which recently has been distracting him from core product. Your chums in Australia had a 40 unit shipment in January. Russia, Scandanavia, Germany and the USA all want similar shipments. AK is focussing on these (and other prospective) markets and a core product range to put a few sheckles in the piggy bank. Once his new core range is properly established he can return to "Projects" - whether new product development (several very interesting ideas) or fannying about with customising 3rd party items. He is not doing LP12 or PT mods (with one notable exception) either ATM. He was not at all happy with the forum and the strata platter saga. In the cirumstances suggestions that he should have sent an arm to Marco or Martin are likely to have fallen on stony ground. I am down to see him next week (idle talk of him buying me lunch!!) so will get a better idea of the state of play then. I think he wants to show me his new toy - a new CNC milling machine - just what we need for a PT bespoke strata mod!!:D

Oldpinkman

13-02-2014, 11:58

Richard?

:popcorn:

Marco.

The arm is not really different from the FXR other than it sits prettily on an SL1200. It SOUNDS the same as an FXR. It works the same. It takes the same cartridges. It just has a Technics specific user interface. The magazines reviewed the FXR and loved it. They were unlikely to review a variation as well. And in the case of the new FXR (2, 3, 4? I lose the plot with AK's model numbers) there are bearing, counterweight, tracking force and antiskate mods which make the new arm superior to what can be achieved on a pimped technics core with its springs. Granted the tube is the heart of the arm, but I am sure you appreciate how subtle improvements are worthwile too. ;)

DarrenHW

13-02-2014, 16:20

Thanks for all the info Richard, very much appreciated. Am I confused? Yes, some things never change :).

Oldpinkman

13-02-2014, 17:23

Thanks for all the info Richard, very much appreciated. Am I confused? Yes, some things never change :).

I love that avatar!! :)

DarrenHW

13-02-2014, 18:11

I love that avatar!! :)

Thanks, 3PO's got some new "cans" now but doesn't make as good a photo.

11563

CageyH

13-02-2014, 18:36

The arm will work with pretty much any cartridge except those with very high compliance - I can't think of any current models in that category. Careful taking cartridge recommendations from Arthur - he'll tell you what he thinks you want to hear. The 103 will work fine in it - AK has fitted one himself. Not my cup of tea, but it's not a cartridge arm mismatch issue. I just don't like cheap moving coils. Since I have the arm, and have been badgering Arthur for suggestions, he has used the Dynavector 20, he loves his Sony XL-55 but neither of us have a snowballs chance in hell finding one, and like me he rates the Goldring 1042 highly as a modestly priced device and suggests the 2300 2400 2500 are well worth trying too. For me, I have hopes that the new stylus on the U205 will do all I hope if it ever gets out of Parcelforce Coventry (2 days from Osaka to Coventry - 9 days in Parcelforce and counting). I have also heard his Decca London sound like only Decca Londons can, but its poor vertical compliance and my warped record collection are not a match made in heaven. Personally, if the Jico U205 fails (and I will be disappointed and surprised if it does) then I will be looking at trying the Zyx. I might just stick the Technics moving coil back in for another go, because with the tracking force reduced to 1.25 that was so nearly there. Confused? - join the club. Any cartridge will work. you'll hear the cartridge not the arm. The arm has the magic of not being there! It sounds - absent :)

I know of another audio designer who quite like the 1042. There must be something about it, but the same designer has recently purchased a 2M Black and quite likes it. I think that is likely to be one of my next purchases.

Marco

14-02-2014, 10:32

The arm is not really different from the FXR other than it sits prettily on an SL1200. It SOUNDS the same as an FXR. It works the same. It takes the same cartridges. It just has a Technics specific user interface. The magazines reviewed the FXR and loved it. They were unlikely to review a variation as well. And in the case of the new FXR (2, 3, 4? I lose the plot with AK's model numbers) there are bearing, counterweight, tracking force and antiskate mods which make the new arm superior to what can be achieved on a pimped technics core with its springs. Granted the tube is the heart of the arm, but I am sure you appreciate how subtle improvements are worthwile too. ;)

Sure, I don't have a problem with any of that, but none of it detracts from what I wrote before. The failure/death of the FX1200 was unfortunately largely due to Arthur's apathy towards it.

You also haven't told me roughly how many FXRs have been sold. Even if you know roughly how many have been made, it would help :)

The other point worth noting is that I'm sure most Technics users, if faced with the choice of having an FXR or FX1200, regardless of if they sound identical or not, would prefer the latter, if only to retain the superbly user-friendly VTA adjustment of the stock tonearm.

I think that both Arthur and you are underestimating just how much of a boon that is, and indeed would've been to some people, had the arm remained in production and been promoted properly to potential users.

Marco.

Spectral Morn

14-02-2014, 11:12

Thanks, 3PO's got some new "cans" now but doesn't make as good a photo.

11563

Looks like the Cybermen have assimilated him .......

Regards Neil

DarrenHW

14-02-2014, 11:26

Looks like the Cybermen have assimilated him .......

Regards Neil

Yeah, I thought he looked like he'd been "upgraded" too, if Torchwood is ever recomissioned I'm sure they could find a role for a camp Cyberman, although I don't want to think about what Captain Jack Harkness would do with him :eek:.

Oldpinkman

14-02-2014, 13:17

You also haven't told me roughly how many FXRs have been sold. Even if you know roughly how many have been made, it would help :)

Marco.

Help with what?

Marco

14-02-2014, 13:37

If you tell me the figure, I'll explain its function! ;)

Marco.

Oldpinkman

14-02-2014, 13:46

Oh bother - turns out I was talking out of my arse. The FX1200's are NOT equivalent to the FXR - they are significantly inferior.

In essence I was correct - the difference between the 2 bearing assemblies is relatively modest, and the tube is all (nearly)

However, early FXR's and the FX1200's were all carbon-fibre arm tubes with the FX treatment. Subsequently FXR's were recalled and carbon-fibre tubes replaced with Aluminium. I can't comment personally because I have only ever heard aluminium tube FXR variants, but Arthur tells me the carbon-fibre is a poor 2nd best.

Having flicked back through this thread, the picture clearly shows a carbon-fibre arm tube. Compare it with my arm - which you can clearly see is aluminium (and has a different headshell arrangement)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0005_zpsd3c33cf9.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0005_zpsd3c33cf9.jpg.html)

The problem is that the FX1200 was NEVER a production item. 3 were made and sent to dealers as demonstrators, and none sold. So they were not recalled in the way the handful of early carbon fibre FXR's were recalled.

However, in principal, a Technics derived FX arm will be very similar to a Rega derived FX arm - OF THE SAME MATERIAL!

Although AK is focussed on the day job, and avoiding gratuitous involvement with fiddly bespoke projects, I did ask whether in principal he would offer to upgrade AOS members FX1200's (both of them) for a nominal sum to cover the work and parts needed, and to the accompaniement of a long moan, he said he would. Let me know guys if you want me to approach him about it next week - I am down for lunch on Friday (for now - it wouldn't be the first meeting cancelled :doh:)

Previous information was given in good faith based on my discussions with AK about the FXR, its variants (including DSJR's request for a GL75 version), and plans for future arms but without specific knowledge of this failed Technics experiment.

:(

CageyH

14-02-2014, 14:01

I'd be interested in knowing the cost, and just how much better the upgraded arm will be compared to what I have so I can take an informed decision.

Thanks.

Oldpinkman

14-02-2014, 14:35

Kevin - I've replied to your PM. I don't think he recalled all those early carbon-fibre fxr's because he had nothing better to do with his time. Cost will be to cover his costs, plus carrier charges. I'll find out more next week.

DarrenHW

14-02-2014, 14:41

Thanks again for the info Richard, I'd be interested too. Thanks.

Marco

14-02-2014, 14:58

The problem is that the FX1200 was NEVER a production item. 3 were made and sent to dealers as demonstrators, and none sold.

Thanks for the info. Firstly, I had no idea that the FX1200 was never a production item, so that's news to me, but it explains a lot. I thought that it was part of the Funk product portfolio, as indeed I suspect did many others.

Secondly, sending such specialist items into dealers was a mistake, as no-one I know walks into a dealer and buys anything for a Technics turntable! :doh:

The modified Techy market exists solely in the Internet world, and mainly on forums. It would've made far more sense, therefore, allowing one of the production samples to do the 'round robin' around the forums, particularly on AoS, where the majority of modded Techy users reside. That way, it would've been reviewed by potential buyers, for the benefit of other potential buyers, and where it could've quickly built up a cult following.

Not to worry, I guess that even Arthur isn't able to get everything right! ;)

Although AK is focussed on the day job, and avoiding gratuitous involvement with fiddly bespoke projects, I did ask whether in principal he would offer to upgrade AOS members FX1200's (both of them) for a nominal sum to cover the work and parts needed, and to the accompaniement of a long moan, he said he would. Let me know guys if you want me to approach him about it next week - I am down for lunch on Friday (for now - it wouldn't be the first meeting cancelled...

Now that sounds good, nice one. What about a service whereby people could send in their stock Technics arms to have them upgraded to FX1200s? Now *that* would be awesome!!

:exactly:

Marco.

CageyH

14-02-2014, 15:05

What about a service whereby people could send in their stock Technics arms to have them upgraded to FX1200s? Now *that* would be awesome!!

:exactly:

Marco.

I believe that is what was initially intended when Arthur thought about the FX-1200. All the details I received when considering my options suggested that I would have to send in my old arm.

Oldpinkman

14-02-2014, 15:48

edited by Darrens request ;)

Kevin didn't buy it from Funk Firm. So how could Arthur have told Kevin before he bought it?

The carbon-fibre wasn’t so much a prototype – more the Mk1 version, which when Mk2 came along very soon after, and with only a handful of Mk1’s sold, Funk decided to upgrade all Mk1’s to Mk2’s so there were only Mk2’s in the market place. As such, the only known consumer products in existence are aluminium, and the only products supplied for review were aluminium I understand that Arthur supplies the Rega modifications, (and therefore presumably would have intended to supply the Technics modifications) by the customer taking their donor arm to the dealer, who sends it to Funk, who modify it and send it to the dealer, who returns it to the customer. As such, Funk know about every FXR or FX rega modification supplied to a customer, because they are sent the arm to modify. Where Funk knew an arm had been supplied to a customer with a carbon-fibre arm they recalled them and fitted aluminium tubes.

But these arms were not supplied in that way. It was an arm made up from spare donor material to send to dealers to give them demonstrator stock, and technically belonged to Funk and were not the dealers to sell. If they had taken a proper authorised sale, and sent a donor for modification, instead of selling off their demonstrator, Funk would have known there was a carbon-fibre product out there and recalled it.

As it is, Arthur will upgrade these arms, which are actually his, for the cost of doing it. That seems to me to say rather a lot for the firm :)

Oldpinkman

14-02-2014, 16:02

Now that sounds good, nice one. What about a service whereby people could send in their stock Technics arms to have them upgraded to FX1200s? Now *that* would be awesome!!

:exactly:

Marco.

See my other post. You were correct - that is how they should have been supplied. Arthurs problem is that his core range sells through conventional channels. I have had this discussion with another forum leader on another forum and his omniscient solicitor chum. The problem is that Arthurs main markets are currently, and prospectively, overseas. I would like to get him to return to the UK, but my limited recent experiences with local retailers confirm just what hard-boiled eggs some of them are.

To answer your earlier question - FXR sales are around 300 - many to overseas markets. (Sales of Technics upgrades are tiny by comparison) Funk can't operate through dealers, and more critically overseas distributors, and do direct sales that undercut them. I had thought this was primarily a national issue, but in this modern information age, you can't credibly cheat markets. So if FX1200's are available at one price in one market, it has to be (broadly) the same in all markets (Big Mac pricing). And with overseas sales completely dominating Funk's order book, that means it has to be through a distributor/ retailer channel.

Arthur can supply direct into the UK - effectively being his own retailer, without damaging overseas markets if he charges a full retail price. But then he hits the issue that he is jack of all trades, and takes his eye off the ball which is the core of his business - container loads of LSD's and Flamenca's to overseas markets. Indeed - modifying arms, regas or technics, are an Arthur-intensive activity. He does them all personally.

As for getting an FXR heard - I think Kevin is likely to have a proper one soon, so he can talk about it on the forum if he wants to.

Richard :cool:

DarrenHW

14-02-2014, 16:03

Hi Richard, Yes, sorry that was my mistake, after reading Kevin's reply I edited my post and deleted the above comments. Kevin has emailed Marco to ask that the posts be deleted. May I respectfully request you edit your post to remove my spurious comments?

Apologies for all offence and admin inconvenience caused. :doh:

Oldpinkman

14-02-2014, 16:12

Post amended. :o

Oops - several crossings in the post, but no real harm done I think. I have been corresponding with Kevin, and spoken with Arthur, and will get back to you after I see him next week, but it will be mates rates. :)

CageyH

14-02-2014, 16:22

:cool:

CageyH

04-03-2014, 12:22

I have stripped my FX1200 from my Techie, and boxed it up securely ready to post to Arthur.
The earliest I can get to the post office is probably Thursday, so it should be back at the Funk Firm early to the middle of next week.

I'm hoping for a quick turnaround so that when the arm comes back, I may still remember how the carbon one sounded.

rubber duck

04-03-2014, 14:33

Did Arthur even try to get the FX1200 reviewed in one of the magazines, either paper or on-line? I'm sure that David Price would've been interested, amongst others.

Can't imagine too many HFW readers having an SL1200 arm to modify given that David Price has told them all to replace this with a Rega!

You can't just expect such a niche product to become a success on its own - you have to be passionate about making it become a success!!

I don't think it's just about marketing. Arthur kindly offered to bring the FX1200 over to compare with my stock Technics arm. Unfortunately the dates didn't work out, which was a blessing in a way when I found out how much it cost to replace the arm tube!

Oldpinkman

04-03-2014, 16:05

Oldpinkman

04-03-2014, 16:09

Can't imagine too many HFW readers having an SL1200 arm to modify given that David Price has told them all to replace this with a Rega!

I don't think it's just about marketing. Arthur kindly offered to bring the FX1200 over to compare with my stock Technics arm. Unfortunately the dates didn't work out, which was a blessing in a way when I found out how much it cost to replace the arm tube!

It's not hard to stick an FXR on an SL1200. I speak as one who has. There is no "style match" but then there isn't with any of the other arms apart from the stock Technics. VTA is easily adjusted on the FXR - albeit not "on the fly" - but, well, I and others seem to have managed perfectly well without being able to adjust VTA as a record plays, and again no other arm does it. Its a gimmick - once you have set VTA its a redundant toy. So the reviews are all the reviews of the FXR, and there are plenty of those. :)

Clive197

04-03-2014, 19:12

I think I've missed something here. Do I understand this correctly, if I send my Techie arm off to Arthur, does he wave his wand and sends back the arm modified to a FX1200. Next question, how much? Any chance of a pic or 2?
Clive

Marco

04-03-2014, 19:31

VTA is easily adjusted on the FXR - albeit not "on the fly" - but, well, I and others seem to have managed perfectly well without being able to adjust VTA as a record plays, and again no other arm does it. Its a gimmick - once you have set VTA its a redundant toy...

Lol - not so!

What if you want to optimise VTA, in a matter of seconds, after going from playing a 'wafer thin' 70s/80s piece of floppy vinyl, to a chunky 200g slab of audiophile lurveliness? Trust me, on a good T/T and system, you *will* hear a difference!! ;)

No getting an Allen key out and messing around lifting the arm up and down, as with the little wheel on the FX-1200, VTA is adjusted in seconds, and furthermore, can be fine-tuned by ear later, whilst the record is playing.... Nope the 'on the fly' adjustment is FAR from being a "redundant toy" :nono:

Btw, Darren has left me his modified SL-1200 (with MN bearing, FX-1200, AT-440MLA, Funk platter, 'externalised' stock PSU and Sorbothane feet) to try for a couple of weeks, and I have to say that I'm very impressed so far! More on that later, once I've had a proper listen. However, the arm and supposedly 'lowly MM cartridge', are producing some lovely sounds :exactly:

Marco.

CageyH

04-03-2014, 19:47

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts/opinion Marco.
I'm still dubious about getting the aluminium tube done but as Arthur has a low opinion of the carbon tube, the aluminium has to be better, or at least I hope it will be!

I'm looking at getting my new platter in a couple of months, then it's cartridge upgrades from that point on. A 2M black is on the cards, unless there is a HOMC for a similar price that will blow a 2M away.
I need to wait a while before I get my Graham Slee Elevator EXP, so I think I will get more from a 2M black and upgraded platter.

rubber duck

04-03-2014, 20:08

Oldpinkman

04-03-2014, 20:39

Lol - not so!

What if you want to optimise VTA, in a matter of seconds, after going from playing a 'wafer thin' 70s/80s piece of floppy vinyl, to a chunky 200g slab of audiophile lurveliness? Trust me, on a good T/T and system, you *will* hear a difference!! ;)

No getting an Allen key out and messing around lifting the arm up and down, as with the little wheel on the FX-1200, VTA is adjusted in seconds, and furthermore, can be fine-tuned by ear later, whilst the record is playing.... Nope the 'on the fly' adjustment is FAR from being a "redundant toy" :nono:

Btw, Darren has left me his modified SL-1200 (with MN bearing, FX-1200, AT-440MLA, Funk platter, 'externalised' stock PSU and Sorbothane feet) to try for a couple of weeks, and I have to say that I'm very impressed so far! More on that later, once I've had a proper listen. However, the arm and supposedly 'lowly MM cartridge', are producing some lovely sounds :exactly:

Marco.
Ok Marco. So tell me. What do you do in that circumstance with your Ortofon arm? I can honestly say in 35 years of listening to 12inch vinyl I've never felt the need

Marco

04-03-2014, 20:50

Lol... I have to do the same as you do with your FXR! Convenient, however, it is not. If it were possible to fit 'on the fly' VTA adjustment to my arm, providing that it didn't affect sound quality, I'd do it in a hearbeat!

However, surely you can hear the difference optimising VTA makes when going from such a thin, to such a thick record? I don't normally bother with 'normal thickness' records, but at both ends of the extreme, it definitely pays to fine-tune the set-up - and with the FX-1200, it's a breeze :)

Arthur is mad to have stopped making them, especially now as I've heard one in my own system, and even after having only had a short listen to it so far, I can say quite confidently that it is a top-notch tonearm and a symbiotic match with the Technics. I could've helped sell hundreds of them....

Marco.

CageyH

04-03-2014, 21:11

That is good to hear.
I just hope the aluminium tubed version is better!

Marco

04-03-2014, 21:12

It may be, but I can't hear much wrong with the carbon-fibre one.....!

Marco.

CageyH

04-03-2014, 21:38

That is why I am nervous. It's all boxed up, and ready to go.
I have the designers word that the aluminium is better, and it's the aluminium version of the FXR that is getting all of the good reviews.
I am just hoping that I can get the carbon bits back, so if I don't like the aluminium arm, I can go back to carbon. :eek:

I quite like the FX1200, even with a modest MM cartridge installed.
I would be interested to hear what you think about it compared to your Ortofon arm, as a direct comparison, and taking value for money into consideration.

Oldpinkman

04-03-2014, 21:39

It may be, but I can't hear much wrong with the carbon-fibre one.....!

Marco.
I mentioned once or twice on this forum that the fxr worked well on an sl1200 to be met with deafening silence or accusations of spam. Sometimes you just have to let folk believe what they need to believe. Kevin fear not. I understand the carbon fibre is but a pale shadow of the final aluminium fxr. Witness the opinions of the supplier of yours in comparison with the sme, compared with every other review I have seen. The difference is arm tube material ;)

Marco

04-03-2014, 22:13

I mentioned once or twice on this forum that the fxr worked well on an sl1200 to be met with deafening silence or accusations of spam.

Who from, Richard? If you can cite any examples of the latter, I'd appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned, both it and the FX-1200 have always been considered as excellent.

Marco.

Oldpinkman

05-03-2014, 07:44

Kevin

Just spoken to AK cos he cancelled me again today (Monday now!). First, he is going to have 2 identical SL1200's for me, one with a carbon fibre FX1200 and one with an aluminium FX1200. Well, maybe...:) Why do I let myself get roped in for this crap? If he plays "Ferry across the Mersey" again, it could be the end of a long friendship...:stalks:

He has reminded me of the wasted money represented by the box of carbon fibre arm tubes on the factory floor, now fit only for use as designer drinking straws. I have seen said box - which was purchased for the launch of FXR, only AK pulled carbon fibre and changed to aluminium. In his words, "the carbon-fibre will probably seem ok to those used to modest arms, but it would never convince anyone used to a Graham or a SME - too soft, transients too blurred, it would never have achieved the reviews the aluminium arm has. Have you ever seen a bad review for FXR by a magazine or the public?" (The material is not without merit - but doesn't work in an arm-tube)

But he will send you back your arm unmodified and reimburse costs if you have already sent it and don't want it modded as a result of my auditions. No f***g pressure then! ;)

Richard

CageyH

05-03-2014, 08:54

It's not been posted yet.
I am still debating the "benefits" of getting the the mod done.
I would be much happier if I had a modified FX1200 with the aluminium tube to do a comparison on in my system, so I could return the unwanted arm. Having never heard an FXR, it's difficult to judge.
It would also be my decision, and for me I would feel much happier about that.

I really don't know what would happen if the aluminium arm did not suit my system. I doubt I could go back to the Carbon version.

Oldpinkman

05-03-2014, 09:33

If you are happy with CF stick with it. Don't expect Funk to produce any more of them, even though Arthur has a box full of available "free" tubes. At least it will have rarity value ;)

CageyH

05-03-2014, 09:50

That is my problem.
I am blissfully ignorant at the moment, however I am still tempted to get it done as Arthur obviously is not happy with his "drinking straws". He must be using the new tube for a reason, especially if he has a box of carbon bits lying around.

Has he thought about selling them off cheap to recuperate some of the cost?
There are a few people on so e of the DIY forums that might be interested.

CageyH

05-03-2014, 10:12

Judging by the recent awards that Arthur has received for products he has developed, I think I am going to put my trust in the man that designed the arm in the first place. There seems to be a very good reason why Arthur no longer uses carbon arm tubes, and if the aluminium is better, then the performance of the arm can only get better.

Richard,

This all boils down to your ears now!

Marco

05-03-2014, 10:53

In his words, "the carbon-fibre will probably seem ok to those used to modest arms, but it would never convince anyone used to a Graham or a SME - too soft, transients too blurred, it would never have achieved the reviews the aluminium arm has.

Lol - not sure what to say to that!

First of all, I'm "used to" a £2100, beautifully engineered and superb sounding Ortofon arm (hardly what I would call "modest"), fitted to an extremely revealing, high-resolution turtntable, and I've compared said tonearm to almost every variety of SME made, vintage and modern, save the V-12 and 312S, (although I haven't compared it to a Graham), and the Ortofon is certainly in the same league as the top 9" SME models, if not better.

When I listened to the FX-1200, with carbon-fibre armtube, on Darren's T/T, it did not sound "soft" or "blurred" in any way, and that was with a relatively modest £175 Audio-Technica MM cartridge fitted to it. I'm sure that Darren, who was present yesterday, would agree - quite the contrary, the sound was punchy, open, dynamic and very lifelike!! :)

Now, of course, I haven't heard the aluminium-tubed version, which may well make the carbon-fibre one sound "soft" and "blurred" in comparison, if indeed it is so much better, but in isolation under normal circumstances, the CF-based FX-1200 is categorically NOT soft or blurred sounding, as trust me, I would pick up on that instantly and report it as such.

Therefore, let's put this into proper perspective: the CF-based FX-1200 is very good indeed, but the aluminium version is purported to be even better. *That* is the reality of the matter. When Kevin does the comparison for himself, I'll be very interested in his findings.

Marco.

P.S If Arthur has a box of CF armtubes lying unused, why doesn't he turn them into FX-1200s? I'm quite sure, after I post my proper findings, he would get some orders for them from Techy fans, looking to fit a top-notch tonearm to their T/Ts, which allows them to adjust VTA 'on the fly'! Seems a waste of nicely machined armtubes otherwise....

Oldpinkman

05-03-2014, 11:05

Yes - it will be interesting to hear Kevins thoughts.

Sounds like I get first pitch though, assuming Arthur doesn't get blown off course again. I think if I call it wrong, and Kevin is disappointed, I may have to pack an arm in my luggage when we are in Toulouse later this year. Be nice to meet for a drink anyway- somewhere other than the Irish bars (my birthday is 17th March - St Patricks Day, and I've had a couple in Toulouse after my divorce 15 years ago). And I'm a rugby fan with a friend who played for London Irish...

Kevin and I have corresponded privately, and Arthurs comments about the SME V (309) resonate with comments Kevin heard from another. It is interesting that you are impressed with a £900 mod against your £2100 arm in the context of the other thread about placebo affects. I found myself lured into finding merits in the Kef R700's cos I had paid £1200 for them and they retail for £2000 against the "ugly speakers" until Mrs S suggested I wake up and smell the roses :)

It's easily done...

Marco

05-03-2014, 11:22

Lol... The fact that I use said Ortofon arm has got nothing to do with placebo effects; it's simply that it has been designed to optimally match my SPU cartridge. It's therefore simply a practical consideration, and so if I want to hear my SPU at its best, I need to use that particular arm :)

The fact that I can still appreciate what a seemingly 'lesser' tonearm can do in my system is simply because my experience allows me to recognise what a particular component excels at, as well as acknowledge its weaknesses. I didn't say that the FX-1200 was perfect, or could compete with my own tonearm, but for £900 (if that's what it costs), it is very good indeed, and outperforms any other tonearm so far I've heard at that price.

In that respect, for example, it pisses all over any Rega (or derivative of such) I've heard, on the Technics, in terms of sheer musicality/fun factor, which is primarily the traits I look out for when assessing how 'good' a tonearm actually is, musically. It certainly imbues recordings with more joie de vivre than an SME V! ;)

Anyway, don’t get me wrong, if Arthur says that the aluminium-tubed version is better, I’d put my house on it, *but* that doesn’t mean the CF-based FX-1200 isn’t worthy in its own right. *That* is the point I want to make.

Marco.

Marco

05-03-2014, 11:31

Btw, what about this:

P.S If Arthur has a box of CF armtubes lying unused, why doesn't he turn them into FX-1200s? I'm quite sure, after I post my proper findings, he would get some orders for them from Techy fans, looking to fit a top-notch tonearm to their T/Ts, which allows them to adjust VTA 'on the fly'! Seems a waste of nicely machined armtubes otherwise....

Seems like a good idea to me. If not what is he going to do with all those 'wasted' CF armtubes?

Marco.

Oldpinkman

05-03-2014, 11:41

Btw, what about this:

Seems like a good idea to me. If not what is he going to do with all those 'wasted' CF armtubes?

Marco.

I have my summer barbeques to think of ;)

Marco

05-03-2014, 11:45

Lol - very good... I'm serious, though! Put my suggestion to him and tell me what he says, providing that it's polite :lol:

Marco.

CageyH

05-03-2014, 13:45

Oldpinkman

05-03-2014, 14:16

I for one would be interested in a carbon arm tube.

Richard,

Let's just get one thing straight from the outset.
I didn't come to France to drink in "Irish" bars!

The arm is going to be posted tomorrow, but I won't be able to post particularly good findings about the difference in arm tube material without being able to do a back to back. I am happy to post my findings after I have fitted the upgraded arm, but only in comparison to the Rega currently fitted. That was a difficult thing to do by the way. It's the first time I have ever knowingly lowered the sound quality of my system.

And I don't plan to move there for the Irish bars either. It's my birthdays fault! There are however at least 3 Irish bars in Toulouse I can think of, the one I have suffered most in being on the main drag near Av Jean Jaures. If I can dodge the pavement dog poo I can think of some nice French ones down by the Garonne. Or out of town - Revel / St Ferriol are nice. Mirepoix? I'm sure you could suggest more :)

Oldpinkman

05-03-2014, 15:44

I'll ask, but doubt he'll want to do it. He's a hoarder. And they are just tubes - no headshells, arm wires, no F.X bracing. Just heavy duty drinking straws.

CageyH

05-03-2014, 18:08

And I don't plan to move there for the Irish bars either. It's my birthdays fault! There are however at least 3 Irish bars in Toulouse I can think of, the one I have suffered most in being on the main drag near Av Jean Jaures. If I can dodge the pavement dog poo I can think of some nice French ones down by the Garonne. Or out of town - Revel / St Ferriol are nice. Mirepoix? I'm sure you could suggest more :)

That will be the melting pot. I'm out of town, and my preference is a nice bottle of red, or a spirit based drink on the terrace, or by the pool. I must get some outdoor speakers sorted out.NThose heavy futy drinking straws could come in handy for that.

To be honest. I am glad that Marco likes the arm. I was impressed by it but ai think the only snag is the perceived value for money at the RRP. To a lot of people, it seems like it's just a new arm tube and cables. I am sure that there is more that goes into it, and it would be interesting to know exactly how much work is involved. The important thing to me though is the performance level that this arm gives.

It's blown away my modified RB251, and as a result I am already regretting taking it off.
It would be really good to get a deck at a reasonable level with an FX1200 fitted at a bake off, as I think the arm will justify a cartridge far in excess of my budget. This will probably be the only way I would ever hear the full capability of the arm.

I knew from the first moment I heard it that it was a strong performer, but I have little experience with tone arms. This being only my third one, but each one has been a major step up from the previous. I just hope that the changes in the tube result in changes that are not just subtle. I'll be a very happy bunny if it's the case. I find that the fX1200 may be a tad bass light, so I hope that this is one area that will improve.

So in light of your experience so far Marco, if you were me, what would your next upgrade be? A new platter, or a decent cartridge and put up with the stock platter and Achromat?

Marco

05-03-2014, 20:50

So in light of your experience so far Marco, if you were me, what would your next upgrade be? A new platter, or a decent cartridge and put up with the stock platter and Achromat?

Hi Kevin

Remind me of ALL your Techy bits again, what's stock and what isn't :)

Marco.

CageyH

05-03-2014, 21:04

RobbieGong

05-03-2014, 21:59

That will be the melting pot. I'm out of town, and my preference is a nice bottle of red, or a spirit based drink on the terrace, or by the pool. I must get some outdoor speakers sorted out.NThose heavy futy drinking straws could come in handy for that.

To be honest. I am glad that Marco likes the arm. I was impressed by it but ai think the only snag is the perceived value for money at the RRP. To a lot of people, it seems like it's just a new arm tube and cables. I am sure that there is more that goes into it, and it would be interesting to know exactly how much work is involved. The important thing to me though is the performance level that this arm gives.

It's blown away my modified RB251, and as a result I am already regretting taking it off.
It would be really good to get a deck at a reasonable level with an FX1200 fitted at a bake off, as I think the arm will justify a cartridge far in excess of my budget. This will probably be the only way I would ever hear the full capability of the arm.

I knew from the first moment I heard it that it was a strong performer, but I have little experience with tone arms. This being only my third one, but each one has been a major step up from the previous. I just hope that the changes in the tube result in changes that are not just subtle. I'll be a very happy bunny if it's the case. I find that the fX1200 may be a tad bass light, so I hope that this is one area that will improve.

So in light of your experience so far Marco, if you were me, what would your next upgrade be? A new platter, or a decent cartridge and put up with the stock platter and Achromat?

Without hesitation from my own experience - Mike New ETP Platter @ around £650 approx. Not cheap if you know what I mean but the icing on the cake. Then a decent cart of course :)

Marco

05-03-2014, 23:58

Deck Spec:
Isonoe feet + Techniboots
MCRU/LDA Linear power supply
Mike New bearing
Achromat on standard platter
Strobe disabled, and pitch fader bypassed.
Revolver Pig II record weight

A choice of modest MM cartridges (AT95E, AT150MLX or an MP-150).
I'm tempted to get a DL-103 as everybody on here keeps on about hem.

If you're going to entertain using a 103, you'll need to add a substantial amount of mass at the headshell end, and then plenty more at the other end to balance it out...

It's a tough one between a better cartridge or an MN platter, as both will fundamentally improve things, but in different ways. I guess that if you're happy with the cartridges you've got, and can hear no obvious/annoying defects with them, then I'd go for the MN platter, as it will markedly improve overall resolution and finesse. The MN platter and bearing combine to refine the sound of the Technics like no other items.

Of course, if you forego getting the MN platter for the moment, you'll be able to spend more on, perhaps, a nice moving-coil cartridge - the arm certainly deserves one :)

Marco.

Oldpinkman

06-03-2014, 06:19

Kevin
Manifestly cartridge. I thought the old turntable then arm then cartridge died with the Linn chip and lp12 fetishism. Transducers first. Compared with a cartridge any platter is going to make a fairly modest difference. Especially since you have sorted the mat. At half a monkey the goldring takes a lot of beating. Does nothing wrong and a great deal really well. It is a bugger knowing how to choose blind, and whether to go mc depends a lot on your phono stage. It is a research subject for Mondays Funk visit too :)

DarrenHW

06-03-2014, 08:58

When I listened to the FX-1200, with carbon-fibre armtube, on Darren's T/T, it did not sound "soft" or "blurred" in any way, and that was with a relatively modest £175 Audio-Technica MM cartridge fitted to it. I'm sure that Darren, who was present yesterday, would agree - quite the contrary, the sound was punchy, open, dynamic and very lifelike!! :)

FUNK YES, I certainly do agree :wow:

I can't offer any opinion regarding other arm's as apart from a DIY modified stock arm and Marco's I've not heard anything else. It does seem a tragic waste of the parts that have already been manufactured to just be sat on the shelf. There have been thousands of views of this thread which would suggest to me that there is a huge amount of interest in this "mod" and I'm sure even if these were sold as self assembly kits there would be a big uptake, not trying to tell anyone how to run their business, suck eggs etc, just my thoughts. If Arthur says the Aluminium arm is better, who's going to argue with him? For the price he's offered to upgrade our arms for it's a very tempting proposition.

As to how this arm compares to others, there's only one way to find out... BAKE OFF!

CageyH

06-03-2014, 09:39

My FX1200 is being posted today.:)

Clive197

06-03-2014, 10:07

My FX1200 is being posted today.:)

Any chance of some photos when it arrives?

Clive

Marco

06-03-2014, 10:11

I thought the old turntable then arm then cartridge died with the Linn chip and lp12 fetishism. Transducers first.

Sorry, I completely disagree.

Experience tells me that the order of hierarchy is motor unit (T/T) > tonearm > cartridge. Why do you think there are so many modified Technics users on here? It's because the direct-drive motor unit of the SL-1200/1210 is of superb quality, which then facilities the other upgrades to PSUs, tonearms, platters, etc, in order to transform the T/T into something that can genuinely compete with the best.

If the motor unit wasn't any good in the first place, then all the other things would be a complete waste of money, and akin to 'polishing a turd'! ;)

I've heard some excellent sounds from high-end turntables, fitted with expensive tonearms, but fairly modest cartridges, but I've never heard a good sound from a mediocre T/T and tonearm, fitted with an expensive cartridge... Such things just don't play music - they merely produce a noise.

If a cartridge is fundamentally well-designed, but modestly priced, and it's fitted to a fairly basic tonearm, there will always be more mileage in upgrading the tonearm first, than fitting a much more expensive cartridge to a mediocre arm that is incapable of optimising it.

On a T/T, it's 'source first', and that means starting from the motor unit/PSU and plinth, and ensuring that, respectively, they allow the platter to turn consistently at the right speed (under load or otherwise), and that sufficient attention has been paid to isolate the turntable from the effects of the environment where it will be used (and here the platter plays a significant role) - ONLY THEN will you be able to hear what the partnering tonearm and cartridge are capable of. Simples!

Compared with a cartridge any platter is going to make a fairly modest difference.

Not really - that is far from being a universal fact. It entirely depends on the weakest link of the T/T in question, and most importantly, as far as Kevin is concerned, what he is trying to achieve in terms of improving his T/T's performance.

Yes, the most 'obvious' difference would be realised by a cartridge upgrade, *providing* that he likes what the new cartridge does, after buying it blind, AND that it synergises, sonically, with the rest of his kit, and doesn't also bring another set of problems with it that upsets the balance of the sound he's currently achieved....

It's very important to think about that. Not doing so, is precisely why people often go backwards, before going forwards, when upgrading not just their T/Ts, but any parts of their system! When upgrading any area of your system, you *must* have a clear plan of action.

The MN platter, on the other hand, is a well-known and established 'no brainer' upgrade for the Technics, and so simply replacing his stock platter for one will instantly improve the performance of Kevin's T/T (and in fundamentally musical ways that no cartridge would be capable of), whilst retaining the sonic synergy of his current set-up.

Only Kevin can decide how to proceed, but on balance, if he's reasonably satisfied with the sound he's getting from the best of his current cartridges, then I'd probably recommend going for the MN platter, as then his T/T is 'done', and he can concentrate later, when funds permit, on buying the best, most suitable cartridge (in the context of his system), that he can afford :)

Marco.

DarrenHW

06-03-2014, 10:48

DarrenHW

06-03-2014, 10:52

My FX1200 is being posted today.:)

Nice one! Look forward to your findings :popcorn:.

Marco

06-03-2014, 10:55

Hi Darren.

FUNK YES, I certainly do agree :wow:

It was nice meeting you the other day, mate! We played a lot of music on both vinyl and CD, which was fun. I hope you enjoyed hearing it on my system :)

At the moment your T/T sounds excellent, and in the right set-up, is currently at a high enough level to simply allow you to forget about anything else and just enjoy the music. You *may* get some mileage from changing the sorbothane feet you're currently using, for Isonoes. That's something we can test at your place when I pop round, as it doesn't really matter what happens in my system because your T/T will be sitting on top of something different. It may also be worthwhile experimenting with mats.

With the stock PSU externalized into its own box, together with the cap upgrades you've performed on the PCB, MN bearing, Funk platter and FX-1200, the only major area where you will now realise a significant upgrade is in fitting a quality MC cartridge - but I wouldn't even think about doing that until you have a phono stage that can do it justice. The AT-440MLA is plenty good enough at the moment. In reality, your biggest upgrade would most likely come from upgrading your Cambridge Audio phono stage, as I suspect that is currently the weakest link.

Incidentally, I've fitted the brass counterweight balance (itself) to your FX-1200, and it has notably improved the sound, in terms of adding some overall 'solidity' and tightening up the bass - it also looks really cool! If I fit both the counterweight and its accompanying 'mass ring', by butting both up next to each other on the end stub, you can move both right along to the arm's pivot point, and it looks great, but unfortunately only 1.35g VTF can be achieved, where 1.6g is optimal.

However, if a heavier cartridge spacer is fitted, at the other end, then that problem will be solved, and you'll be able to obtain 1.6g VTF, using the counterweight and mass ring together (which really looks the business) and have both snug against the arm's pivot point. I'm pretty certain that will further improve the sound.

Anyway, I shall continue listening to your T/T in my system, in order to get to grips fully with what the FX-1200 is doing, and post my extensive impressions of it later :cool:

Marco.

Marco

06-03-2014, 10:56

In my (very) limited experience I would speculate that the platter should be replaced first, having just replaced the stock platter with the FF the most notable difference to my ears was the reduction in back ground noise. Surely a more revealing cartridge would be more susceptible to back ground noise, or am I talking boll*cks?

No, that makes perfect sense.

Reducing noise/eliminating vibration/resonance is fundamentally what upgrading the stock PSU, bearing and platter is all about, which in turn will allow the cartridge (at the end of the chain) to realise its full potential. It therefore follows that said potential will be greater when using the best cartridge one can afford.

However, the potential of any cartridge cannot be fully realised until what's happening downstream of that has been optimised to the best of one's ability.

:exactly:

Marco.

Gordon Steadman

06-03-2014, 11:12

Sorry, I completely disagree.

Experience tells me that the order of hierarchy is motor unit (T/T) > tonearm > cartridge. Why do you think there are so many modified Technics users on here? It's because the direct-drive motor unit of the SL-1200/1210 is of superb quality, which then facilities the other upgrades to PSUs, tonearms, platters, etc, in order to transform the T/T into something that can genuinely compete with the best.
Marco.

I'm with Richard on this. Obviously, if you put a good cartridge on a crap arm and TT it isn't going to do its job. However, its safe to assume that 'most' decent hi-fi components are of good quality and if that is the case, then MY experience is that changing the cartridge has most effect, followed by the arm, followed by the TT. This is based on actually listening to different combinations and although I don't do much swapping these days, was always the case when I used to play around like you lot (:)) and had ears that were fully up to the job.

Its clear that no-one should talk in terms of absolutes anyway, as we all appear to have different ears/expectations and experiences.

Marco

06-03-2014, 11:25

That's fine, Gordon, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, the most important thing here is not what we consider is 'correct', but what's best in the context of Kevin's system.

Knowing the Techy fundamentally inside out, and the improvements gained by fitting an MN platter (can you or Richard say the same? ;)), as well as slowly getting to know what the FX-1200 is doing, on balance, I'd recommend that he went for the platter upgrade first - but ONLY if he is reasonably satisfied with the best of his current cartridges.

If there are significant problems there, then he should definitely address those first before getting an MN platter :)

Marco.

DarrenHW

06-03-2014, 11:55

Hi Darren.

It was nice meeting you the other day, mate! We played a lot of music on both vinyl and CD, which was fun. I hope you enjoyed hearing it on my system :)

Hi Marco,

It was nice to meet you too and again thank you for taking the time.Yes, I certainly did enjoy hearing your system and I think my internal organs have just about recovered from the pounding they received from your Lockwoods :stalks:.

At the moment your T/T sounds excellent, and in the right set-up, is currently at a high enough level to simply allow you to forget about anything else and just enjoy the music. You *may* get some mileage from changing the sorbothane feet you're currently using, for Isonoes. That's something we can test at your place when I pop round, as it doesn't really matter what happens in my system because your T/T will be sitting on top of something different. It may also be worthwhile experimenting with mats.

Good news, I did wonder after I left whether the feet could be responsible for the "bloating" in the bass we experienced with it. As for experimenting with feet, that's just opened up a (delightful) can of worms due to the Mana Acoustics Racks I PM'd you about, won't go into that now to avoid drifting the thread, I'm in the process of cleaning them up now and will photo and start a new thread. Thanks for the offer of both your time, ears and trying the Isonoes, you're a gent :).

With the stock PSU externalized into its own box, together with the cap upgrades you've performed on the PCB, MN bearing, Funk platter and FX-1200, the only major area where you will now realise a significant upgrade is in fitting a quality MC cartridge - but I wouldn't even think about doing that until you have a phono stage that can do it justice. The AT-440MLA is plenty good enough at the moment. In reality, your biggest upgrade would most likely come from upgrading your Cambridge Audio phono stage, as I suspect that is currently the weakest link.

Phono Stage has been playing on my mind too, I did wonder whether the "issues" I'd been experiencing with my system were PS related, I guess it could be as simple as loading? I had planned on modding the CA (caps, diodes, resistors & OP's), at this stage I'd be into the CA for about £200.00 + time and can't help but wonder I'd be better off with a different PS, again at the risk of drifting I'll save my questions for a new thread.

Incidentally, I've fitted the brass counterweight balance (itself) to your FX-1200, and it has notably improved the sound, in terms of adding some overall 'solidity' and tightening up the bass - it also looks really cool! If I fit both the counterweight and its accompanying 'mass ring', by butting both up next to each other on the end stub, you can move both right along to the arm's pivot point, and it looks great, but unfortunately only 1.35g VTF can be achieved, where 1.6g is optimal.

However, if a heavier cartridge spacer is fitted, at the other end, then that problem will be solved, and you'll be able to obtain 1.6g VTF, using the counterweight and mass ring together (which really looks the business) and have both snug against the arm's pivot point. I'm pretty certain that will further improve the sound.

Thank you, again :youtheman:. Glad it all worked out well. Does that mean that I would only need to increase the spacer weight by 0.25g? If so do you think this could be done by swapping the headshell bolts for some longer / brass bolts, additional nuts, washers etc... or is this not the way to go?

Anyway, I shall continue listening to your T/T in my system, in order to get to grips fully with what the FX-1200 is doing, and post my extensive impressions of it later :cool:

Marco.

Excellent, I'm glad your enjoying spending time with it and I'm sure there are plenty of members who will be interested in your findings :popcorn:

Marco

06-03-2014, 12:29

Glad it all worked out well. Does that mean that I would only need to increase the spacer weight by 0.25g? If so do you think this could be done by swapping the headshell bolts for some longer / brass bolts, additional nuts, washers etc... or is this not the way to go?

The goal, I'd suggest, would be to use either a heavier plastic cartridge spacer/mount, from those you've got in that little bag, or longer/heavier bolts - whichever, in conjunction with the brass C/W and supplementary weight, resulted in the achievement of 1.6g VTF at the point of the stylus, *but* that also subsequently added the least amount of mass, as your AT cartridge will not like the arm's effective mass to be increased too much.

Therefore, ideally, you'll find something just heavy enough and no more that'll allow you to obtain optimal tracking force for your cartridge, but subsequently keep the C/W right next to the arm's pivot point.

Sorry I've not had a chance yet to reply to your PM. I shall rectify that later. Good news on the Mana - you've got lots of fun to come there! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Gordon Steadman

06-03-2014, 12:35

Knowing the Techy fundamentally inside out, and the improvements gained by fitting an MN platter (can you or Richard say the same? ;))
Marco.

Nope, well not a modified one anyway. I have played with one a DJ friend had. Sounded bloody terrible:ner:..............but he did play it through a PA system:lol:

CageyH

06-03-2014, 13:15

Any chance of some photos when it arrives?

Clive

When Arthur posts it back, I will be happy to post some pictures.

Oldpinkman

06-03-2014, 14:37

Marco

You're from Scotland I believe. When did you change your name from Ivor? It's a story I've heard before. I have few doubts you know the Technics better than I do. I have in my day however heard not a few motor units and arms. Far, far more to the point, I have recently swapped F5's and FXR's across SL1200's with various platters (stock, funk acrylic, and strata) and an LSD, a Sapphire, and a Pink Triangle, which was what caused me originally to note that I thought arms had a bigger influence. The F5 and FXR both clearly retain their character - a really obvious sound - across all those platforms. Of course, all the motor units sounded different, but there was a much more obvious character to the arms.

Having compared Arthurs 2 very different platters, they were different, but it was quite subtle. An easy pick for me, but I suspect my Mum, or kids wouldn't have noticed (or cared more to the point). That doesn't mean the differences don't matter - but if we are grading what comes first, the platters were the subtle refinement end of the set. By contrast, the difference between cartridges is as obvious, even to the disinterested, as the difference between speakers is.

A record player is a system. And any system with a weak or missing component is sub-optimal. The best answer to Kevin is "both" , but then if that had been an acceptable answer he wouldn't have asked the question.

And as for "its a confusing market and you have to take a blind punt on a cartridge" - tell me about it. But it doesnt get any less confusing, or the punt any less blind, because you have a Mike New Bearing and a Mike New ETP platter. Its one of those classic "true - but so f***g what?" comments! I might have added that red apples are harder to bite than soft bananas, and it would have been honest and true, but about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

You asked previously why Arthur lost interest in the forum. Having ignored every post I have made about the Funk arms, and now heard a sub-standard withdrawn variant of the FXR which has won all the media accolades, you have decided that you have always believed in it, although there are countless "which arm " posts on this forum (or "should I change my arm or get a Mike New Bearing??) since I joined which end up SME, Jelco, or Origon with never a single mention before Darrens arm of a Funk arm. C'mon Kevin - if you could keep only one would it be the FXR or the MN bearing?

And the only platter anyone ever wants, :exactly: is the recently launched, recently acquired by you, "long established" ETP. There is one solution only - no scope for variety. Marco's flavour of the month is THE only solution, churned out ad nauseum, and with no room for dissent. I don't mind - I'm a punter having fun, and its not my livelihood. I think Arthur feels he has better things to do with his time, and more open markets to pursue. If you had just designed a platter for the Technics (accepting the circumstances of its botched launch and withdrawal leave a lot of the blame with Arthur and Funk) and the forum leader tells EVERY SINGLE enquirer, EVERY SINGLE TIME that he MUST get a MN bearing and MN platter, would you be on the forum?

For the record, whilst deferring to your greater experience, I have used the following arms - Micro Seiki, GL75, Linn Basik v Linn Basik X Linn Ittok, Mission 774, Syrinx PU2 Syrinx PU3, Helius original, Helius Orion, SME IV, SME V, Sumiko, Rega RB300, Funk F5, F6 FXR (a proper one) - Oh and a standard SL1200 and an F.X SL1200, and others I can't now recall.

Get a Mike New Kevin. A Jelco arm, and DL103 - and *KNOW* you are right :exactly:

And never forget that awesome, amazing, wonderful motor, which can drive a 10Kg Mike New platter, until it can't, and is THE HEART of the system has one job to do. Spin the record at a constant speed in normal playing conditions. It does it well - but so do lots of others - unless of course, you belong to the faith, where there is only one answer which is catholic :doh:

rubber duck

06-03-2014, 14:50

:popcorn:

Marco

06-03-2014, 15:03

Marco You're from Scotland I believe... <Snip> I have few doubts you know the Technics better than I do. I have in my day however... {Blah de blah, burble, burp, waffle, etc}.

[Edited to remove boredom factor]

Have you quite finished yet?? Calm down, dear! :lol: I think you should go for a wee lie down... However, amongst all your ranting, I should address this snippet of rampant delusion:

You asked previously why Arthur lost interest in the forum. Having ignored every post I have made about the Funk arms, and now heard a sub-standard withdrawn variant of the FXR which has won all the media accolades, you have decided that you have always believed in it, although there are countless "which arm " posts on this forum (or "should I change my arm or get a Mike New Bearing??) since I joined which end up SME, Jelco, or Origon with never a single mention before Darrens arm of a Funk arm.

First of all, the highlighted bit in blue is purely in your head. The only time I ignore what you write is when I can't make head nor tail of it...!! Ok, so given that that happens quite often, I may have inadvertently 'ignored' your various epistles about Funk arms... Please accept my apologies.

Secondly, the answers you receive to questions, such as you've highlighted, will simply be based on the experience of the people answering those questions. Therefore, if they happen to be SME, Jelco or Origin Live users, then that's the answers you will get!

Thirdly, the ONLY reason why I'm currently mentioning the FX-1200 is because I've now heard one in my own system, fitted to a T/T I'm intimately familiar with. I don't know about you, but I only comment on the efficacy of equipment I own or have used/heard extensively. Should I recommend Funk arms, which previously I haven't evaluated in a relevant context, just to please you and pacify your fanboyism?

Marco.

Marco

06-03-2014, 15:05

Nope, well not a modified one anyway. I have played with one a DJ friend had. Sounded bloody terrible:ner:..............but he did play it through a PA system:lol:

:lolsign:

Marco.

CageyH

06-03-2014, 17:01

Is now a good time to ask about a SUT?

:eyebrows:

I'm relatively happy with my AT150MLX.
If my bonus next month is big enough, and I can sneak it past the Mrs, I may get a platter and an even better MM cartridge. Which platter? Well, it depends on what bargains I can find. Now that he Funk Mk2 is available, there should be some deals on a mk1, and then there is the MN ETP, and a couple of others.

I'm half tempted to CMM my standard techie, and knock up a CATIA model and get a toolmaking friend to knock one up out of Delrin. It shouldn't be difficult.

Anyway, back on topic, my FX1200 is winging it's way back to Funk as we speak.
I'd love to attend a bake off where all the various platters were available, and see which one I prefer, but hat is not going to happen any time soon.

I bought the FX1200 blind (should that be deaf, as I saw pictures of what I was buying?) and it turned out to be stunning to my ears after a RB251 modified by another respected HiFi supplier - Would a PU7 be any good on an SL1200?
The RB251 isn't shabby either. I'm not looking forwards to doing the same with a platter, as what works in one man systems, may not suit another. I know Darren has the Funk Arm with the Funk Platter, and Marco is saying it's good.
Any chance of popping your MN ETP on the FX1200 equipped deck, and letting me know what you think of that please Marco? I am interested to know if we are talking about subtle differences between the two items, and if so, what are they?

Marco

06-03-2014, 17:56

No problem. I'll do that as part of my evaluation of the FX-1200 and report back. However, that probably won't occur until sometime next week, as I'm up to my eyes at the moment in various things.

Marco.

CageyH

06-03-2014, 17:57

No rush Marco, I won't be shopping until April at the earliest.

PaulStewart

06-03-2014, 20:16

Marco You're from Scotland I believe. When did you change your name from Ivor?<snip>

George Orwell is reputed to have once said "Just because the Daily Telegraph says something is true, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a lie". I feel much the same about the "Linn philosophy", Garbage in Garbage out is, whether we like it or not, true. You can't improve it downstream so TT (which does not just have to spin at a constant speed, it has to control spurious energy), Arm (unless the tracking is accurate and again spuriae controlled here too, there can be no pure signal) and then cartridge. Amar Bose said that "We reached the peak of our knowledge of acoustics in 1955, after that we lost a lot of it" I agree with that too, but in my opinion, in both cases the proponents of these philosophies were right, but came up with similarly incorrect applications.

When I was in the trade full time I did loads of shows (There were more in those days as some may recall). Sometimes reps would accuse one another of "Taking the Sony/JVC/Linn pills if they were pushing their stuff after hours in the bar, restaurant or on one memorable occasion a strip club. With all due respect Richard, perhaps you need to cut down on the PT/FF medication :lol: I have not heard the new FF arm, however I have read a great deal about it and would welcome the chance to hear one on my system. But Richard, I think you have to accept that other people do design good Hi-Fi kit and others are knowledgable and fair minded in the assessment of it.

ATB

Marco

06-03-2014, 20:31

We're on the same page, Paul! ;)

Marco.

CageyH

06-03-2014, 20:56

I for one am thankful for Richards association with Funk Firm.
If it was not for his efforts, I would not have been offered the option to upgrade.

DarrenHW

07-03-2014, 08:11

I for one am thankful for Richards association with Funk Firm.
If it was not for his efforts, I would not have been offered the option to upgrade.

As am I, Richard has been the (non commissioned) middle man for Kevin and I and has provided us with a lot of information we would not have been privy to without his association to Funk. He has gone out of his way to help us out and stands to gain absolutely nothing, he is the embodiment of the ethos of AoS.

I am also grateful to Marco for the all information and time he's given me since joining the forum, he was almost as excited as I was to hear the FX 1200 and possibly more excited than I was once he'd heard it, to me it sounded better than the stock arm end off as I have nothing else to compare it to. Marco was able to judge it against the other arms he's heard and how it compared. Marco currently has my TT and will do for another week, as far as I'm aware he has it for the following reasons; i, he has a genuine interest in listening to it, ii, he can review it and post his findings on here, iii, he's just a nice guy and is happy to help me set up my TT, he will also be returning it to me and setting it up for me along with my newly acquired rack.

I don't know why things have got so heated on here after all in the "Basics of Ethos" sticky under the "Things we really like here" heading is "Differences of opinion sensibly discussed", the advantage of a new cartridge versus a platter ultimately comes down to a difference of opinion and it's these differences of opinion that allow the uninitiated such as myself to form their own conclusions.

Oldpinkman

07-03-2014, 08:13

Thanks Paul once again for your experience and wisdom. I'll pop the FXR in the skip with the 2 PIPs

You are indeed on the same page with Marco, and your Orwellian quote is most apposite in that context, since you share his talent for making comments which are not untrue, and yet unhelpful at best, in context.

We were discussing Kevins dilemma regarding a MN bearing or a cartridge. In that context I took account of the fact that he had a tonearm which was more than adequate. Indeed, I can't think of an arm routinely considered on this forum which has issues with tracking inaccuracy. And when it comes to controlling spuriae (spurious energy) the FXR is class leader. You will doubtless correct me, but please back that with data, but I am unaware of any other arm, ever, anywhere which achieves arm resonances within loudspeaker tolerances of +-3db 20Hz-20KHz. None I think avoid at least one peak above 10db. Many have more than one above 20db. Clearly this thread, like your response, :worthless:, so here is mine

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/FXRcurve_zps31c2d7c6.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/FXRcurve_zps31c2d7c6.jpg.html)

I have made the point of GIGO myself in the context of the many arm re-wiring threads, noting that improving the arm wiring only helps to marginally improve the accuracy with which the garbage produced by the cartridge generators, rattled by the arm resonances, is transmitted to the phono section. So by your definition, folk are guilty of GIGO in their systems using arms with 10db spikes of "spuriae", and yet rush to buy Ortofon Cadenza blacks and hope to fix the problem downstream with an £800 kettle lead.

Regarding the motor unit, or turntable, as opposed to the motor - the faith of this forum is that the SL1200 unit is a poor audiophile product, although more than adequate for DJ use, but is the donor of its motor for the AOS custom kit turntable. This has several variants, but a common option is Funk Achromat £67, MN ETP platter £700, MN nearing £475, Linear power supply £300, Jelco 750 arm £450, Isonoes £115 - or MCRU offer the kit pre-assembled for £3450. That unit, with audiophile aspirations (although still with arm resonances like an Alpine landscape) uses the motor from the otherwise sub-audiophile Technics SL1200

Think of it like a kit car. Say the Ronart W152. It uses an engine from a Jaguar, like the AOS kit TT uses a motor from a Technics SL1200. The kit, including its engine mountings, is responsible for protection from the elements, ride, handling, and other VITAL matters. The engine just provides the power to spin the wheels, although it helps the total kit design control ride comfort if it doesn't vibrate too much.

Likewise the motor from the SL1200, the only bit considered audiophile on AOS, the raison d'etre for the kit in the first place, ONLY HAS TO SPIN THE RECORD at the right speed. All those other important factors you mentioned are dealt with by the kit it is mounted in. The donor unit wasn't very good at them. THe AOS kit is. The motor is the same in both.

Recevez, je vous prie, mes meilleures amitiés ;)

Marco

07-03-2014, 08:33

Regarding the motor unit, or turntable, as opposed to the motor - the faith of this forum is that the SL1200 unit is a poor audiophile product, although more than adequate for DJ use, but is the donor of its motor for the AOS custom kit turntable.

Could you please translate the above from the mangled word salad that makes sense inside you head, into something that others can also understand?

Cheers :)

Oh, and getting a turntable to spin a record at the right speed consistently (under load), with no wavering or pitch inaccuracy is trickier than you think.

Some of us consider, based on what we've heard, that the direct-drive motor unit of the SL-1210 (and other high-quality D/D T/Ts) is more capable of that than *most* belt-drive turntables (certainly the low to medium-mass variety), which is precisely why the Techy, and modifying of it thereof, is so popular on AoS.

Marco.

Oldpinkman

07-03-2014, 08:45

Could you please translate the above from the mangled word salad that makes sense inside you head, into something that others can also understand?

Cheers :)

Marco.

AOS has a belief, a shared "truth" that a great turntable can be built using the motor from an SL1200. The Technics SL1200 itself, designed for the DJ market as much as, if not more than, the domestic market has the motor in it which is used in that great turntable I have referred to as the AOS kit. Of itself, the original SL1200 is not a hifi product. It needs the items I listed elsewhere changing. You used a rather more pithy term for the stock SL1200 in a PM to me .

Je vous en prie :)

Oldpinkman

07-03-2014, 10:21

Could you please translate the above from the mangled word salad that makes sense inside you head, into something that others can also understand?

Cheers :)

Oh, and getting a turntable to spin a record at the right speed consistently (under load), with no wavering or pitch inaccuracy is trickier than you think.

Some of us consider, based on what we've heard, that the direct-drive motor unit of the SL-1210 (and other high-quality D/D T/Ts) is more capable of that than *most* belt-drive turntables (certainly the low to medium-mass variety), which is precisely why the Techy, and modifying of it thereof, is so popular on AoS.

Marco.

Do you have an edit facility which doesn't show? I could swear this is at least the 3rd one of your comments that has changed since the first time I looked at it.

Trickier than I think? Not me mate. I let another mate of mine do the thinking. And he discussed your point on an earlier thread to do with platters and warble, explaining why he considered a direct drive solution and a belt drive solution were two equally valid methods of skinning the same cat. And at the time I think you were in back-slapping agreement. I'll let him know Monday you've changed your mind, and put him straight! :cool:

Gordon Steadman

07-03-2014, 10:38

Do you have an edit facility which doesn't show? I could swear this is at least the 3rd one of your comments that has changed since the first time I looked at it.

You have to be quick off the mark Richard. The system gives you a certain amount of time to edit after the first post. Not sure what the limit is here.

Oldpinkman

07-03-2014, 10:43

You have to be quick off the mark Richard. The system gives you a certain amount of time to edit after the first post. Not sure what the limit is here.

Maybe - but most of my edits are within seconds of posting (usually from my Galaxy Note 3 phone) and show a "trace". I had replied to Marco's original before he edited to that version. See post 160. The difference in the quotes on my 2 posts is not me editing the quote, its Marco changing his post without an "edit trace" showing. No big deal, but I have done a couple of double-takes! :cool:

Marco

07-03-2014, 10:46

AOS has a belief, a shared "truth" that a great turntable can be built using the motor from an SL1200.

Sounds to me (similar to your mania about 'proving' the inefficacy of 'aftermarket' mains leads to all and sundry), like another snipe at the choices of others that don't match with your own.

The "shared truth" of the above is simply the collective experiences posted on this forum by a group of discerning audio enthusiasts. It is as 'true', in that respect, as any 'belief' in audio that you have.

The Technics SL1200 itself, designed for the DJ market as much as, if not more than, the domestic market...

FFS, that old chestnut....! :doh:

How many times must it be stated that the SL-1200 was NOT originally designed for the DJ market, and ample evidence given to prove that fact, before it penetrates into the heads of the hard of thinking?

One last time, for your benefit... This is a picture of the original SL-1200, built solely as a hi-fi turntable in 1972:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/802/u3lm.jpg

Observe the lack of pitch slider, which was introduced MUCH later, when the DJ market adopted it for playing 7 and 12 inch singles in pubs and clubs.

It then became the de facto standard turntable of choice for professional use because of its rugged construction, superb speed stability, resistance to vibration, and excellent sound quality (particularly when pumping out dance tunes), and so National Panasonic/Technics realised that this was now the core market for their product, and subsequently made some design concessions to facilitate that, one of which was the introduction of the pitch control.

Later, the SL-1200/1210 was not only used by DJs, but in recording and broadcast studios, for precisely the reasons mentioned earlier, including some local BBC radio stations whose budget didn't stretch to an SP10 or EMT. As such, 1000s of them were in use in studios up and down the country, some still to this day.

In summary, therefore, the SL-1200/1210 was NEVER originally designed for the DJ market, so please absorb that fact and remember it in future, if your arguments in that respect are to have any credence.

Of itself, the original SL1200 is not a hifi product. It needs the items I listed elsewhere changing.

Not true. There are plenty who use and enjoy totally stock SL-1200s and 1210s, which they consider as superior to many belt-drive T/Ts, especially the usual entry-level fodder from Pro-Ject and Rega.

It's only those who want to own a turntable that can genuinely compete with the best, who take things to the next level - and succeed! One day, if you ever hear one of the best examples for yourself, of a modified SL-1200/1210, you will become acquainted with that fact.

Marco.

Marco

07-03-2014, 10:51

Trickier than I think? Not me mate. I let another mate of mine do the thinking. And he discussed your point on an earlier thread to do with platters and warble, explaining why he considered a direct drive solution and a belt drive solution were two equally valid methods of skinning the same cat. And at the time I think you were in back-slapping agreement. I'll let him know Monday you've changed your mind, and put him straight! :cool:

I haven't changed my mind. I've always believed that both the belt-drive and direct-drive solution were equally valid to their respective users, and that remains the case.

However, equally, I haven't changed my mind in respect of experience telling me that D/D, done well, is better, which is why I've invested around £6k in a modified SL-1210 and not simply gone out and bought a 'high-end' belt-drive T/T instead. But that is merely my opinion, nothing else, and so as far as that is concerned, nothing has changed.

Marco.

Oldpinkman

07-03-2014, 11:09

One last time, for your benefit... This is a picture of the original SL-1200, built solely as a hi-fi turntable in 1972:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/802/u3lm.jpg

Marco.

Yup - looks just like every other one pictured on the forum ;) Nobody uses the later DJ version then?

As for stock SL1200's I recall your description of them to me in a PM. However, that wasn't my point. I have no wish to knock the standard SL1200 or anyones right to enjoy it. I was just distinguishing its motor from the whole shebang, and noting it was the motor which was the bit left and raison d'etre for the mods such as your own, and that its job, the motors, was simply to spin the record at the right speed under normal operating conditions. Mr Stewart was the one who went off on one about how a full turntable and arm had other design criteria to attend to.

£6000? That buys a lot of turntable! I wonder how many people realise that it costs that much to get the quality referred to on the forum when they first spend £350 on ebay?

:)

Marco

07-03-2014, 11:14

Yup - looks just like every other one pictured on the forum ;) Nobody uses the later DJ version then?

In that case you're blind, and wouldn't do very well in any 'spot the difference' competitions...

For goodness sake, the point is that the "later DJ version", other than the pitch control, is identical in every respect that matters, to the original, which was built as a HI-FI TURNTABLE!! :doh:

Are you being deliberately obtuse or just naturally thick?

Marco.

PaulStewart

07-03-2014, 11:46

Thanks Paul once again for your experience and wisdom. I'll pop the FXR in the skip with the 2 PIPs

????? Richard, what I said was

"I have not heard the new FF arm, however I have read a great deal about it and would welcome the chance to hear one on my system. But Richard, I think you have to accept that other people do design good Hi-Fi kit and others are knowledgable and fair minded in the assessment of it."

How does that equate with passing comment on the FXR? You should read, digest and understand before replying. As for my experience and wisdom! Leaving aside years of pro audio and academic qualifications, I have worked with a number of UK boutique HiFi companies and one major international one over the years and not as an accountant, but in hands on tech and design capacities. Do get real there's a good chap :lol:

Marco

07-03-2014, 12:01

You should read, digest and understand before replying.

That's one of Richard's problems, together with a somewhat selective memory, and what often gets him into trouble here, due to the subsequent misunderstandings (and circular arguments) caused by a lack of the above :rolleyes:

Marco.

Beobloke

07-03-2014, 12:17

For goodness sake, the point is that the "later DJ version", other than the pitch control, is identical in every respect that matters, to the original, which was built as a HI-FI TURNTABLE!! :doh:

I hate to dive into the middle of this crossfire, but although your assertion that the deck was originally intended for hi-fi use is quite correct, the early SL1200 had a motor more closely related to the SL1100 and was simply servo controlled with no quartz lock. This was added when the deck became a Mk2 and remained right up to the Mk5 so the Mk1 is something of a different beast to the later versions.

Sorry - as you were, all!

AlexM

07-03-2014, 12:30

By the way, we're not all spending a fortune on the most expensive possible arms, bearings and other components.

My bill of materials is as follows:

2nd hand SL1210 - £180
DIY PSU upgrade - £65-ish?
Jelco SA-750D - £340
Jelco arm lead - £70
Acromat - free at HFN show at the Penta a couple if years back
Cartridge - Benz Micro Ace SM £390
Vanatage Sorbothane feet £20

So, excludind the cartridge the total spend on the deck is £670. For that, I have a superb sounding Vinyl front-end that is made in a way that only a high series-volume production item can be in terms of materials and tooling, is practically bomb-proof, and is a totally set-and forget trouble free item. I'm sure it will outlast me, and even then I have a spare 1210 waiting in the wings that cost me even less (£160!!) should the need arise. I certainly think that it represents very good value for money, and am pretty happy with the end result.

Undoubtedly the strength of the SL1200/1210 is it's pitch stability, which is an extremely important attribute to me. I have owned many belt drives, and I always have a the same sort of 'cringe' reaction to wobbly piano pitch as when I hear a sharp or flat singer - I just can't bear it, and all of my belt-driven TTs have sufferred to a greater or lesser extent. Clearly it isn't as easy to get low wow and flutter as you suggest.

Honestly Richard, I do think you are percieivng slights where there are none. You don't need to act as an interlocutor on anyone's behalf, and this is all beginning to look somewhat silly. Take a few deep breaths and then find something else talk about!.

Regards,
Alex

Marco

07-03-2014, 12:32

I hate to dive into the middle of this crossfire, but although your assertion that the deck was originally intended for hi-fi use is quite correct, the early SL1200 had a motor more closely related to the SL1100 and was simply servo controlled with no quartz lock. This was added when the deck became a Mk2 and remained right up to the Mk5 so the Mk1 is something of a different beast to the later versions.

Excellent, Adam. I'd forgotten about that! :)

So in that case, the facts of the matter are that the Technics SL-1200, built originally as a hi-fi turntable, by Matsushita Electric/Panasonic, was later further improved, as a hi-fi turntable (if one considers that Quartz locking was an improvement - count me in), before some minor concessions were made to the original design, in order to facilitate DJ use.

The main point in all this is that the SL-1200 started its life as a hi-fi turntable, not as DJ deck, and therefore that was (and indeed remains today) its intended primary function by the manufacturer.

Marco.

Marco

07-03-2014, 12:41

Honestly Richard, I do think you are percieivng slights where there are none. You don't need to act as an interlocutor on anyone's behalf, and this is all beginning to look somewhat silly. Take a few deep breaths and talk about something else for a bit!.

:clap: :clap:

:exactly:

Let's hope it sinks in!

Marco.

CageyH

07-03-2014, 12:58

What has all this got to do with an FX1200?

I think that everybody who has heard one agrees that it sounds really good in the Carbon incarnation.
I hope to refit my upgraded FX1200 in a few weeks time, and I'll let everybody know what I think of it then.

Until that time, enjoy the sunshine.
20 degrees C and not a cloud in sight here today.

DarrenHW

07-03-2014, 13:07

Marco

07-03-2014, 13:19

What has all this got to do with an FX1200?

Apparently, according to Richard, all we 'go on about' here are SMEs, Jelcos and Origin Live tonearms. Funk arms simply aren't being raved about enough!! Perhaps, just to throw a preposterous notion into the mix, that's because until now not many here have used them? :hmm:

Furthermore, it's patently obvious that Richard (and indeed Arthur) want the FXR to be considered as superior to the carbon-fibre based FX-1200, for obvious commercial reasons, whether or not potential customers and/or users of either arm consider that to be the case! ;)

Marco.

Oldpinkman

07-03-2014, 13:54

Apparently, according to Richard, all we 'go on about' here are SMEs, Jelcos and Origin Live arms. Funk arms simply aren't being raved about enough!! Perhaps, just to throw a preposterous notion out there for a moment, that's because until now not many here have used them? :hmm:

Furthermore, it's patently obvious that Richard (and indeed Arthur) want the FXR to be considered as superior to the carbon-fibre based FX-1200, for obvious commercial reasons, whether or not potential customers and/or users of either arm consider that to be the case! ;)

Marco.

Which obvious commercial reasons are those?

You really don't seem to have grasped this yet do you? What AK refers to as F dot X is the patented concept of stuffing a cross-shaped beam up a thin-walled arm tube. He bought some carbon fibre tubes, stuffed them with bracing, stuck a few on rega bearing hubs, and a few on Technics bearing hubs, and sent them out to a handful of dealers. The Technics hubs ended up sold by those dealers to customers. The Rega hubs - which formed the basis, due to their universal applicability to all motor units, of the FXR sold as a funk arm, were all recalled to have metal tubes fitted. The Technics ones, were forgotten about as not-mainstream and leaked into the public domain.

There is no such thing as FX1200 instead of FXR. There is FdotX technology mounted on one of 2 bearings - rega or Technics. The Technics arms did not get CF as some secret premium option, or because there was a symbiotic relationship with the turntable the arm was designed for. The FX1200's got carbon fibre arms for the same reason as the Rega's. The concept was launched that way. The Rega's got replaced with the superior metal tubes because they were mainstream product. The Technics ones got forgotton about and stayed sub-standard, by mistake

The carbon fibre tubes were replaced with metal ones, because, although the concept was sound, the realisation was sub-optimal. They didn't sound right compared with top arms like the Graham and the SME V. Metal blew those stalwarts clean out of the water. So all future production was metal arms. All existing "retail" product with CF was recalled and replaced with metal. Except the Technics which were forgotten about

The only arm EVER to have been reviewed is the metal tubed version
The only arm EVER to have public domain resonance charts is the metal tubed version
The price of the metal tube costs far more than the carbon (the bloody anodising costs more than the carbon) but the price of the arms is unchanged.
The off the shelf FXR has rega bearings (modified) with a rega mount (modified) because it is a universal fit on all turntables.
Both the Rega arm owners and Technics arm owners had the option to have their arms converted to FdotX versions for £950. If anyone had actually asked to do that with a Technics arm they would have been supplied with a metal tube version which sounds and measures like the ones reviewed to such great acclaim, and to be cute and clever with a name, that modified arm would have been called an FX1200

WHAT COMMERCIAL REASON???? That's the worry with this forum. People talk ill-informed rubbish, and it becomes accepted *fact* :exactly:. Such mis-information, presented with the absolute infallible authority of a forum owner, does appalling damage to Funk's reputation, and must be the best reason to stay away from the forum, and supplying Technics products.

Since you know best - let Darren keep his superior CF arm with the benefit of your superior knowledge and assurances that it is better - it will be unique. Heaven forbid any of us have some secret commercial agenda to remove this secret treasure from its one remaining owner, for the "obvious commercial benefit" of having FXR considered as superior.

I want nothing further to do with it

Marco

07-03-2014, 14:06

Which obvious commercial reasons are those?

Well, it simply wouldn't do, would it, if the carbon-based FX-1200 was merely different, not worse than the FXR, as the latter is what Funk are actively trying to sell!! I can smell the agenda a mile off, Richard.

I'll leave you to the rest of your hissy fit and inherent delusions. Oh, and please remember to reply to the PM I sent you, at your earliest convenience, or your post above will be the last one you make on AoS for a week.

Cheers! :)

Marco.

CageyH

07-03-2014, 16:11

When I was researching the arm pre-purchase, the only review I found was one on HiFi-pig for the carbon arm, and my guess is that the deck reviewed is the one that Darren bought?

I did find quite a few others for he FXR, but these were for the metal tubed version. I even asked the guys at Funk for some carbon based arm reviews, and they were unable to provide any. To me it makes sense to upgrade my arm the the latest standard, especially when I heard about the product recall on the carbon based production arms. I did quite a bit of surfing looking for reports, and to be honest, I didn't find many good or bad.

Anyway, if I don't like it, I'll be pushing Richard in my pool, and clamping his caravan when he passes through! I haven't told him this yet, so please don't spoil the surprise!

CageyH

08-03-2014, 08:41

This is one of the reviews that I found, and you can clearly see it's a metal arm tube - FXRII Review PDF (http://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/upload/funk_firm/presse/Testbericht_hifiPlusFxRII.pdf)

Marco

08-03-2014, 09:16

Hi Kevin,

To me it makes sense to upgrade my arm the the latest standard...

Indeed, and as I said to you in a PM, I agree. My position on this issue has never been that the CF-tubed FX-1200 is superior to the FXR (or aluminium-tubed FX-1200), as indicated by this nonsense from Richard:

Since you know best - let Darren keep his superior CF arm with the benefit of your superior knowledge and assurances that it is better...

The bloke lives in cloud-cuckoo land, and so regularly invents these fantasies, rather than actually reading what people write. If anyone can quote me saying that Darren's FX-1200 is superior, or my knowledge of it or the FXR is "superior" to anything, anywhere on this thread or this forum, I will give them £1000!! It simply didn't happen. I can't even comment on the FXR, as I've never heard one!

As I've repeatedly said, I have little doubt that the aluminium-tubed FX-1200 is sonically superior to the CF-based one, BUT that doesn't mean the former isn't highly capable in its own right. *That* has been my position throughout this whole debate, despite Richard's attempts to misconstrue what I've written for his own agenda. Richard asked what the commercial agenda I was accusing him of was, and so I will outline it as I see it:

The fact is, every manufacturer wants their customers to believe that their latest products are the BEST, and that all before it were 'inferior', as it makes commercial sense to do so, even if in reality that isn't necessarily the case. After all, they have product to sell and don't make money on 'defunct' items (such as the FX-1200), therefore no wonder Funk are not keen on me eulogising about a product they no longer make!

Unfortunately, Funk, and every other manufacturer whose products are discussed here, have to realise that on AoS we will always tell is as we honestly see it (as indeed Martin did with the MKII Funk Technics platter), no matter if that's not what they want to hear, and so they simply have to 'man up' and accept how it is.

We're not in anyone's 'pockets' or here to protect anyone's commercial interests; we're here to offer our honest opinions as audio and music enthusiasts on products we choose to comment about or review - and that will remain the case, no matter how many manufacturers/traders run off on a girly strop, simply because they can't handle our brutal honesty!

Anyway, what's most disappointing about this sorry saga is Richard reneging on the deal he had agreed with Darren for Arthur to upgrade the carbon-fibre arm on his FX-1200, for an aluminium one, simply because of an argument with me, as appears to be the case here:

Since you know best - let Darren keep his superior CF arm with the benefit of your superior knowledge and assurances that it is better - it will be unique. Heaven forbid any of us have some secret commercial agenda to remove this secret treasure from its one remaining owner, for the "obvious commercial benefit" of having FXR considered as superior.

I want nothing further to do with it

If indeed Richard is being so infantile and petty, then the man is a disgrace, as the agreed deal with Darren should still be honoured. Why should Darren suffer? He's an innocent party in all of this.

In any case, after Richard's rather rude and ridiculous outburst yesterday, accusing me also of damaging Funk's reputation, when I have done nothing of the sort [if anyone has damaged Funk's reputation, it's him with his continual hypocrisy and penchant for prevarication - as such he makes a very poor ambassador for the company], and his refusal to answer a PM, warning him about his unacceptable behaviour, he's is on a week's holiday, whereupon his return he will hopefully have learned some manners.

If not the ban will become permanent, as I will not have people here who show both the forum and me such blatant contempt.

Marco.

Audioman

08-03-2014, 11:24

Marco can I point out that from memory and checking one review of the arm on the net that the original reviews appear to be for the carbon tubed FXII. Now these may or may not have gone back but I suspect there were a few out there as Emporium are selling one quoting the review that states it's carbon. Always assumed that the carbon tube was the significant difference though now that is obviously not the case. Adam (Beobloke) reviewed an early sample (and had some problems) but probably could confirm this.

Paul.

CageyH

08-03-2014, 11:41

The picture on Eporium HiFi shows a red anodised metal tube. A metal tubed version with a black anodise also exists, and this is what I have asked for if they are still available.
I found another review for a Linn "carbon" upgrade, but most I have found were the metal arm, but there are not many of them out there.

Gordon Steadman

08-03-2014, 11:42

I found this whilst browsing through my local charity shop, thought I'd better try and support those trying to bring a sense of reality to the world:)

'course, it may be a different bloke!!

rubber duck

08-03-2014, 11:43

Anyway, what's most disappointing about this sorry saga is Richard reneging on the deal he had agreed with Darren for Arthur to upgrade the carbon-fibre arm on his FX-1200, for an aluminium one, simply because of an argument with me, as appears to be the case here

Darren, why don't you email Funk/Arthur directly? Following this thread I got back in contact with Arthur again and he's kindly offered to do my SL1200 arm, I assume with the current FXR arm tube

rubber duck

08-03-2014, 11:53

In any case, after Richard's rather rude and ridiculous outburst yesterday, accusing me also of damaging Funk's reputation, when I have done nothing of the sort [if anyone has damaged Funk's reputation, it's him with his continual hypocrisy and penchant for prevarication - as such he makes a very poor ambassador for the company], and his refusal to answer a PM, warning him about his unacceptable behaviour, he's is on a week's holiday, where upon his return he will hopefully have learned some manners.

If not the ban will become permanent, as I will not have people here how show both the forum and me such blatant contempt.

Marco, with all due respect, might this not be a little harsh? As a neutral spectator in all this I must say the argument has been heated, perhaps a touch personal (on both sides, I might add), but surely nothing serious enough to warrant this? Some "time out" seems like a sensible idea here but I'd hate to see active members banned for such "infringements" and will for one miss Richard's contributions.

Marco

08-03-2014, 12:31

Hi Jeff,

He's only out for a week, so he's getting the 'time out' his behaviour has warranted.

The problem is that, aside from this little fracas, for quite some time Richard has been sticking two fingers up at the ethos of the site, in terms of its pro-subjectivist outlook, and so this fall out has been bubbling away for a while, and simply came to a head yesterday. His temporary ban is therefore part of a wider issue.

Richard needs to learn that if he wishes to remain a member of our community, then he must not only respect our subjectivist ethos, but those who own and run the site. While he's here he simply cannot say or do what he likes. Therefore, upon his return, we shall see if his behaviour shows evidence of embracing what we expect here from our members, and so what Richard chooses to do there will determine what future he has on AoS.

Having now outlined the situation, let's please return to the subject of the thread, and move on, as during his time out from the forum Richard has no right of reply.

Marco.

DSJR

08-03-2014, 12:41

Excellent, Adam. I'd forgotten about that! :)

So in that case, the facts of the matter are that the Technics SL-1200, built originally as a hi-fi turntable, by Matsushita Electric/Panasonic, was later further improved, as a hi-fi turntable (if one considers that Quartz locking was an improvement - count me in), before some minor concessions were made to the original design, in order to facilitate DJ use.

The main point in all this is that the SL-1200 started its life as a hi-fi turntable, not as DJ deck, and therefore that was (and indeed remains today) its intended primary function by the manufacturer.

Marco.

Absolutely!

I should also add that the motor as fitted to Technics' better decks NEVER suffered the servo overshoot that so audibly afflicted many of the OEM Matsushita motors as fitted to JBE, MA and many other decks out there. The torque isn't anywhere near as high as the quartz locked models, but tracking under 2g doesn't ever show dynamic wow IME as the servos are so gentle anyway and the torque is easily as high as the better belt drives of the period IMO.

The only reason why we in the UK never heard much about the SL1200/1210 series 2 at the time was because Technics wasn't regarded as a top end company by then (all their best stuff stayed in Japan, the US or Germany IIRC) and of course the fruitbox and related products ruled supreme over here, much to the amusement elsewhere in the world!

Marco

08-03-2014, 13:19

Hi Paul,

Marco can I point out that from memory and checking one review of the arm on the net that the original reviews appear to be for the carbon tubed FXII. Now these may or may not have gone back but I suspect there were a few out there as Emporium are selling one quoting the review that states it's carbon. Always assumed that the carbon tube was the significant difference though now that is obviously not the case.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is indeed relevant to this discussion. However, as far as your last point goes, which I've highlighted, that’s not necessarily true.

A carbon-fibre tube was fitted to the excellent review of Funk's modified Ittok in HFW, shown here: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/34-arms/159-funk-firm-ittok.html, and also originally to the FX-II (which I recall David Price at the time saying he considered outperformed an SME V), not to mention to the FX-1200 of Darren's, which I'm currently enjoying and sounds superb. Therefore, I doubt that on any of those desings the use of carbon-fibre was a significant limiting factor.

I think it seems reasonable to assume that the common denominator of carbon-fibre, used in all of those arms, was a fundamental contributory factor towards their performance [although that's not to say aluminium doesn't better it], and for their excellent reviews, not to mention why I'm also finding the CF-based FX-1200 somewhat of a revelation at its price point. There are of course other aspects of the FXR design responsible for its excellent performance, but I simply cannot accept that the use of carbon-fibre has all of a sudden become a hindrance, simply because Funk want to promote the new metal arms!

The whole point, and crux of this matter, is that just because Arthur has suddenly discovered that aluminium sounds better to him than carbon-fibre, and subsequently is now using that material for the tubes on his tonearms, doesn't instantly devalue what Funk's (well-reviewed) previous CF-based tonearms are capable of, despite what Arthur (or indeed Richard) would like us all to think, which is why I smelled an agenda from the point that Richard took a dislike to my eulogising of Darren's CF-based FX-1200.

If you scroll back on this thread, and read both my posts and his, you will see that's exactly what happened, and what subsequently provoked the 'hissy-fit' that led to his ban.

Marco.

rubber duck

08-03-2014, 13:32

Audioman

08-03-2014, 13:36

Hi Paul,

Thanks for pointing that out. It is indeed relevant to this discussion. However, as far as your last point goes, which I've highlighted, that’s not necessarily true.

Marco.

Marco. I think you may have misunderstood me. I assumed from the original reviews that the carbon fibre was the main reason for improvement over other Rega based arms. Therefore rather surprised reverting to metal is claimed to be better than carbon fibre. Frankly I'm sceptical that the Rega arm is optimised in this way given the importance of the one piece casting of the original design (which has been modified on new arms) and from experience of the Origin Live decoupled counterweight which appears to address the main drawback of the original design (stodgy greyness). Please note that David Price described the Origin live structural mod an 'SME V beater' long before he did the FXII. So all claims have to be taken with a pinch of salt. Obviously Arthur's mods give a different presentation or flavour to SME and other alternatives thus perceptions may be down to TT used and personal taste.

Paul.

DSJR

08-03-2014, 13:53

No stodgy greyness of an RB arm 'sound' when it's used with a sympathetic deck/armboard (NAS decks for example). OL seem to make the arm worse in order to make it sound 'better' IMO and finish isn't always to Rega standards either I've seen. The ONLY main and quite small resonance in an RB arm is added to by the OL mods at FAR higher level right in the midrange, to give an *added* 'zing' to records, which is actually lowering the 'fi' if you see what I mean. Judging by Funk's published plots, their pipe assembly removes practically all resonances from the arm assembly, making the arm acoustically as 'dead' as possible.

The original 'secret' of the Funk arm pipe is the internal cross, rather than the material used IIRC, so going from a possibly variable carbon fibre composite (the fibre starts as a flexible cloth-like material I believe before being 'set' with resin or similar - well, woven CF does) to a thin-wall and more consistent? metal construction possibly wouldn't matter at all in all honesty. T'would be interesting to hear Arthur's take on it, as he'd have measured the consequences :)

MartinT

08-03-2014, 14:06

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:12

Marco. I think you may have misunderstood me.

Indeed :) Although, the point I was making was equally relevant.

I assumed from the original reviews that the carbon fibre was the main reason for improvement over other Rega based arms. Therefore rather surprised reverting to metal is claimed to be better than carbon fibre.

I completely agree. However, let's remember that the reasons why manufacturers modify the designs of their products aren't always to make SONIC improvements. Often there are practical reasons why such modifications are necessary! ;)

Marco.

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:20

I do wish that people would check their facts. The SL-1210 Mk2 is the deck that very many of us own, released in 1979 and featuring quartz PLL servo lock. From Technics own brochure "For a surprisingly moderate investment, you can now own a quartz direct drive turntable with studio performance". It then goes on to talk about "audio purists" and "disco DJs". So, unsurprisingly, Technics were aiming the deck at whichever markets would buy it, including "professionals" such as studios.

So what? A good turntable design is a good turntable design.

Hear, hear! :clap:

The reason I insist on hammering home the point (at every appropriate opportunity) that the SL-1200/1210 was never originally desinged for DJs, is because of the idiots out there who seek to use that as a pathetic excuse to demean its sonic abilities, particularly the wankstains who resent the current popularity of the Technics in modified form, together with the fact that many consider that it outperforms certain favoured belt-drive T/Ts.

Therefore, whenever anyone so much as HINTS at that deluded shite about "DJ decks", I very quickly destroy it!! ;)

Furthermore, I *really* enjoy it when the modded Techy acts as 'one in the eye' to those assholes (together with the 'high-end audio establishment'), which is one of the reasons why the modified Technics is so heavily promoted on AoS!! As they say in Glasgow: 'get it right up ye!' :upyours:

Marco.

P.S Please bear in mind, Martin, that Richard has been banned for a week, and so has no right of reply, therefore it's probably unfair to quote him.

CageyH

08-03-2014, 14:23

Marco, have you compared the FX1200 to a standard SL1200 arm to see what the FXR arm tube brings to the table (so to speak)? More critically, are the improvements worth the asking price? Or would it be better to spend this on a better arm?

The standard stock arm does not hold a candle to the Funk modified arm.
The main changes (as far as I know) are the arm tube, and internal/external cables. I don't think that the bearings are changed, but I think that each arm has the bearings checked/replaced before being converted.
The VTA adjuster is also serviced if required.

For me it was a no brainer after hearing it, as the carbon version sounded superb to my ears. Richard will be auditioning the carbon and metal tubed arms during his next visit to Funk, and I have asked him to send me back my arm unmodified if it is only a subtle change between the aluminium and Carbon arms, I have a feeling it won't be as carbon tube is difficult to manufacture to tight tolerances, on a repeatable basis.

Is it worth the asking price? That's completely up to you. Yes, it does not look much different from a standard arm, but I can assure you, it sounds very different, and in a good way. I miss mine already!
This will be the last arm I ever buy for my SL1200. To get any better, I think you need to spend big money, which I am not prepared to at this moment in life.

Ali Tait

08-03-2014, 14:27

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:29

The plot thickens.......

Marco.

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:31

If he doesn't return, I shall delete the quote.

No worries. His behaviour 'elsewhere', during the duration of his temporary ban from here, will largely decide whether or not he gets back....

Marco.

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:33

Haven't read all this thread, but looking at the FF website, the FX-R still comes with a CF arm. Is that still the case?

States in the blurb that CF measures better than anything else, including ali.

Hi Ali,

I haven't got time at the moment to search, so could you provide a link to where the above info is stated? Cheers, dude :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait

08-03-2014, 14:37

http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/arms/fxr_II.html

Near the bottom of the page.

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:40

I have a feeling it won't be as carbon tube is difficult to manufacture to tight tolerances, on a repeatable basis.

Could that be the real reason why metal has all of a sudden become the 'de-facto standard' at Funk? Perhaps the box of carbon tubes Richard said were spare, were simply ones that didn't pass quality control, and thus were rejected?? :hmm:

Marco.

Gordon Steadman

08-03-2014, 14:50

This is beginning to sound a bit like a witch hunt:(

With a hint of personal point scoring.

Ali Tait

08-03-2014, 14:55

Agreed. It's only hi-fi FFS! :D

Marco

08-03-2014, 14:57

This is beginning to sound a bit like a witch hunt:(

With a hint of personal point scoring.

Not at all - we're just trying to understand what exactly is going on!!

If your mate was able to express himself cogently in the first place, without going off on wild tangents, and using 50 words when only 5 were necessary, perhaps there wouldn't be such confusion over the arms Funk are making? ;)

Marco.

NRG

08-03-2014, 15:00

:D Yes, burn the Witch!

From the link Ali posted the text is referring to the arm construction, it mentions the construction is better than carbon fibre alone as well as Aluminum alone.

Quite simply, FX-R's stiffer F•X beam construction and total balanced design, outperforms:
Cast aluminium
Cast magnesium
Titanium
Wide-bore
Narrow-bore
Wood (which is inherently highly damped)
Tapered tubes and
Carbon fibre.

Ali Tait

08-03-2014, 15:03

...and what caused my initial confusion, near the top of the page, in the visitor's comments bit - "rewired RB 250 or 300 with their own internally crossbraced spiral wound carbon fibre armtube. It sells for £1,100 which might sound a lot for just a hot rodded Rega "

Marco

08-03-2014, 15:10

Marco, have you compared the FX1200 to a standard SL1200 arm to see what the FXR arm tube brings to the table (so to speak)? More critically, are the improvements worth the asking price? Or would it be better to spend this on a better arm?

I agree with Kevin's earlier comments. The FX-1200 is leagues ahead, sonically, of the stock Technics arm - so much so that to mention both in the same breath is ridiculous....

I always said that what held back the stock Technics arm was its flimsy and resonant armtube. The fact that the CF armtube of the FX-1200 fundamentally addresses that weakness is testament not only to how effective the Funk mods are, but also how good the bearings are in the Technics arm! ;)

If Arthur had made the FX-1200 (either with a carbon or metal armtube) properly available to modified Technics T/T users in the first place (and allowed either Martin T or I to review one on AoS), and had priced it competitively enough to have been attractive to potential buyers, then it would've sold in its hundreds, instead of the Jelcos, Regas or whatever else people bought instead.

However, I believe that situation is not too late to be rectified...

Marco.

Gordon Steadman

08-03-2014, 15:21

Not at all - we're just trying to understand what exactly is going on!!

If your mate was able to express himself cogently in the first place, without going off on wild tangents, and using 50 words when only 5 were necessary, perhaps there wouldn't be such confusion over the arms Funk are making? ;)

Marco.

Richard is not 'my mate' as you describe him. We have never met. The only connection we have is that he intends to live in France and hold similar views to me about certain things. He also hold similar views to you that I totally disagree with.

We banter on here and exchange the occasional email. Hopefully, we will become friends when he visits, as he intends, during his summer break this year.

Personal labels are dangerous things. "subjectivist', 'objectivist' all that stuff are just useless inventions in order to categorise. Nothing is that simple.

Marco

08-03-2014, 15:34

Fair enough, Gordon - it's just that most of your posts these days occur when you pop up to defend him, so that's how it looks! ;)

Anyway, I stand by what I said.

A major part of this Funk tonearm fiasco is caused by the inability of Arthur's 'appointed PR man' to express himself clearly and concisely, notwithstanding Arthur's own (understandable, most likely due to lack of time) inability to update relevant details on the Funk website to reflect the REAL reasons for the recent change from using carbon-fibre to aluminium, on the FXR.

Now that's enough about Richard, whilst he remains banned. If if you've got anything further to add to this thread, please make it be about the products under discussion.

Marco.

Gordon Steadman

08-03-2014, 15:45

Fair enough, Gordon - it's just that most of your posts these days occur when you pop up to defend him, so that's how it looks! ;)

Anyway, I stand by what I said. A major part of this Funk tonearm fiasco is caused by the inability of Arthur's 'appointed PR man' to express himself clearly and concisely.

Now that's enough about Richard, whilst he remains banned. If if you've got anything further to add to this thread, please make it be about the products under discussion.

Marco.

OK but one more comment. 'Most of my posts' is not correct. A few certainly.

Marco

08-03-2014, 15:58

Fine - and now we move on :)

Marco.

Marco

08-03-2014, 16:36

Hi Dave,

The torque isn't anywhere near as high as the quartz locked models, but tracking under 2g doesn't ever show dynamic wow IME as the servos are so gentle anyway and the torque is easily as high as the better belt drives of the period IMO.

Indeed. Interestingly, you mention the phenomenon of 'dynamic wow'.

It is the total lack of such that I consider is a reason why the best direct-drive T/Ts outperform their medium to low-mass belt-drive counterparts (and thus can better maintain correct platter speed under load), particularly when one is using a heavy cartridge, tracking at 3g+ on a high-mass tonearm, where said 'dynamic wow' becomes a genuine consideration and is easily heard (translated as pitch instability) with the right music. Solo piano, I find, is always a good test in that respect.

High-mass belt and string-drive turntables seem to do better at reducing dynamic wow, but the best D/Ds and ilders, IME, nail it dead, simply because of the sheer heft and control of their motor units!

The only reason why we in the UK never heard much about the SL1200/1210 series at the time was because Technics wasn't regarded as a top end company by then (all their best stuff stayed in Japan, the US or Germany IIRC) and of course the fruitbox and related products ruled supreme over here, much to the amusement elsewhere in the world!

Exactly, and the SL-1200/1210 series was not only regarded not as top end by the company who made it (although that situation changes when the T/T is judiciously modified), but also those you've referred to above, dealers and users who've been brainwashed, since the 70s, by the whole UK belt-drive/fruitbox bias...! :rolleyes:

*That* is also a primary reason why modified SL-1200s and 1210s are heavily promoted on AoS (along with vintage idlers): in order to help undo that age-old brainwash - and it's working! :eyebrows:

It's also understandable that those who bought into the brainwash don't like that fact being drawn attention to in the public domain by a turntable that highlights it, and thus makes some of those folk feel uncomfortable and dissatisfied with their choices..... ;)

Marco.

CageyH

08-03-2014, 18:44

You guys make me chuckle! :ner:

Who cares if the outside was carbon, and the inside aluminium, and now it's all aluminium, or aluminium on the outside and carbon on the inside? It's not really clear exactly what material is used. The cross-bracing could be unobtanium for all I care - as long as it still sounds good.

I think the important part is the internal cross-bracing. Looking at the plots, you can see the effect is less colouration of frequencies, and no nasty peaks.
The arm comes across remarkably neutral. So much in fact, that you can think that something is wrong. Then you realise that what you are hearing is as close to the true sound of the master tape that your cartridge will let you.
I am really impressed with it. It's probably the best piece of HiFi kit I have ever bought.

As for the carbon manufacture comment, this was based on my experience of wet lay up manufacture a few years ago. The Funk supplier of the carbon tube may well have the process nailed.
I will reserve judgement until I hear the upgraded arm, or get my carbon one back.

CageyH

08-03-2014, 19:17

Anyway, now Marco has heard this, should it not be in Strokes of genius? Or is that where the write up is going Marco?

MartinT

08-03-2014, 20:26

It is the total lack of such that I consider is a reason why the best direct-drive T/Ts outperform their medium to low-mass belt-drive counterparts (and thus can better maintain correct platter speed under load)

Agreed. I find that an offset centre hole far outweighs any detectable wow in the Technics itself, something which only the super-expensive Nakamichi could address with its auto-centering.

Andrei

08-03-2014, 20:41

http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/arms/fxr_II.html
Near the bottom of the page.
On that page there are a number of graphs. The Y axis is Decibels - well and good. The X axis appears to be Hertz, starting at 20. Assuming the X axis is Hertz what would be the bottom right corner? 10KHz, 20KHz, 40KHz?

Marco

08-03-2014, 20:42

Anyway, now Marco has heard this, should it not be in Strokes of genius? Or is that where the write up is going Marco?

Lol - it's more likely to be a series of smaller posts, probably on this thread, detailing how my experience with the FX-1200 ('inferior carbon version' ;)) is progressing, than a 'full blown' review of it in S.O.G :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

08-03-2014, 20:52

Agreed. I find that an offset centre hole far outweighs any detectable wow in the Technics itself, something which only the super-expensive Nakamichi could address with its auto-centering.

I'm surprised that this hasnt been offered as a mod yet.

RobbieGong

08-03-2014, 22:07

I'm surprised that this hasnt been offered as a mod yet.

Sorry for being dim but what are we refering to here ? what is this offset centre hole ?

rubber duck

08-03-2014, 22:15

Nakamichi made a turntable which centred off-centre records.

The Grand Wazoo

08-03-2014, 22:32

Like so......

rUgOUftRSjk

RobbieGong

08-03-2014, 22:39

Like so......

rUgOUftRSjk

Cool, took a few goes but boy that was certainly dead centre !

MartinT

08-03-2014, 23:42

I'm surprised that this hasnt been offered as a mod yet.

Hard to imagine a retro-fit mechanism that could do it.

PaulStewart

09-03-2014, 00:24

Andrei

09-03-2014, 04:55

Just going back to the F dot X cross damping thing, I remember a few years ago reviews of the Ortofon TA-110 talking about Ortofon's expertise in medical acoustic rubber and how this was injected into the arm and that it made the arm "disappear". I'm kind of intrigued as to why F dot X might be better and also, noting the website says the patent is applied for and pending not granted, how the patent will be granted on this product.
We'll have to wait and see, but I would like to hear the thing on my system.
If I've got this right I think they are two different technologies. One is Damping, and the other is Rigidity. Arthur from Funk used a fishing rod analogy. Can't recall where I read it, maybe on the Funk web page or somewhere here in the Techiepedia. It made sense to my non-engineering cpu.

CageyH

09-03-2014, 09:07

Marco,

Any further thoughts on a good cartridge for this arm now that you have had a chance to listen to it?

Macca

09-03-2014, 09:12

If I've got this right I think they are two different technologies. One is Damping, and the other is Rigidity. Arthur from Funk used a fishing rod analogy. Can't recall where I read it, maybe on the Funk web page or somewhere here in the Techiepedia. It made sense to my non-engineering cpu.

It is on the Funk web site linked to earlier. One of th claims that interested me was that as an arm flexes in normal use it will effectively reduce in length, affecting tracking. I'm not an engineer or even close but it surprises me that in normal use the forces exerted on a tonearm are such that it will flex so much that it will reduce its effective length to the extent that tracking and I suppose alignment would be audibly deteriorated. Would anyone suitably qualified/experienced like to comment on that?

CageyH

09-03-2014, 10:28

Lol - it's more likely to be a series of smaller posts, probably on this thread, detailing how my experience with the FX-1200 ('inferior carbon version' ;)) is progressing, than a 'full blown' review of it in S.O.G :)

Marco.

That's a shame. I was hoping for a full blown review. ;)
There are not that many out there.

Marco

09-03-2014, 10:37

Guys,

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I'm afraid that due to another one of Pinky's loony rants, based on fantasy-land nonsense that is simply inside his own head, accusing me of fraud and all sorts of crap, this time on a forum that cannot be named, but which some of you may be familiar with, his ban has now been extended to a permanent one.

Normally, we don't permit direct quoting from this particular site, but so as all of you know the reason why he's now been permanently banned from AoS, I'm making an exception and enclosing his rant and ridiculous allegations against me for your perusal:

This latest FXR episode is a classic example. The man was completely ignorant of the arm until he got Darrens, but is a leading expert on it. He thought the idea was to use a carbon fibre arm tube - of which there are plenty of others. So nothing new in that. It completely misses the point, which is (not very clearly) made on Funk's web site, explaining that the f.x technology is superior to damping, and superior to tapered tubes, and superior to carbon fibre tubes. At least - that is how it is conceived and presented. But no - Marco starts off on "the secret is a carbon fibre tube" - oblivious to the "rigid beam" concept which is the subject of the patent, because although he has "long endorsed the FXR" he is too lazy to read a magazine review or the funk web-site and find out what it actually is (Evidence, M'lud - he has to ask a fellow forum member for a link to it!!!). He then manages the preposterous conclusion that Arthur and I concocted a scheme 4 years ago, to slip a couple of dodgy arms into the market with carbon fibre tubes, that we could then work a scam on via AOS to fraudulently offer to upgrade them to metal tubes, because Arthur knew that metal was inferior, but wanted to pocket a few quid (and it was a few) to rip-off Darren and Kevin, who really had the proper version he no longer knew how to make. Marco has of course "invisible edited" some of his posts since I asked Daniel for a quote, but I still intend to discuss with Arthur on Monday whether we consider those effective accusations of fraud to be actionable. And I have screen-shots of his posts, like I have a screen shot of my lock-out message.

Of course the all knowing expert goes on with a wink, to suggest that if Arthur had thought of offering Technics owners a chance to have their arms modified, at the right price, get him to review it (for which the standard expression of appreciation to Marco is a free gift of the item reviewed), they would probably have snapped up the chance in their hundreds. I know you think I ramble and my posts are confusing, but how f***g hard is it to get the idea that the product called FX1200 comprises a modification service to a standard Technics arm and retails for £950???? That's the deal. Take it or leave it. There is not some special FX1200 entirely made from scratch by Funk for £950 where you can get a diy part-bin option for £50 instead now Marco has had the bright idea. The cost of the arm is not the materials cost of the tube. It is other parts, including the bracing structure, a fair bit of labour, handling, marketing including dealer distribution chain, and patent royalty "worth". The guy's strengths are not "lowest cost producer" or "World marketing mega-power" - they are "James Dyson style mad-professor inventor" who protects his nutty ideas with patents. As you so appositely put it - FFS!

Little details, like I hadn't even heard of AOS until I googled for "F5" last year after Arthur had given me an F5 instead of re-wiring my mission 774 as a trade for doing his tax return don't come into it when your are Marco, and you know everything best. It's one thing to have fanciful opinions and ideas, but you cross a line when you accuse people of deliberate deceit and in effect intended fraud, with no evidence. And then imply that a manufacturer is knowingly selling an inferior product. I have a solicitor chum who is a bit more local than Daniel, and will be chatting to him.

Have you ever heard such patent nonsense? Fraud, deceit - WTF is he on about?? There are so many fabrications of what I *actually* wrote in there that I don't know where to start :doh:

The bloke's lost the plot... None of it bears any relation to reality!! :mental: :mental: :mental:

Anyway, after the fables he's just written, invented in his head by his twisted imagination, there is no way on this earth that I could ever exist within the same community as him again, therefore Richard has now been given a lifetime ban from AoS. The matter is not up for debate.

Thank goodness Macca's reply to him has intoduced some sanity to proceedings. Hopefully, that will clear some of the fog from his brain:

Richard don't waste your time or your solicitor chum's. Nothing Marco posted is remotely actionable unless there was some very blatant accusation that I never saw and was edited, which I don't think so. If you don't intend to go back to AoS that will be a shame, you were quite a popular contributor. This whole thing is a storm in a teacup and 99% of people don't care in any case.

Marco.

Audioman

09-03-2014, 11:31

That's a shame. I was hoping for a full blown review. ;)
There are not that many out there.

Personally I think any review of a product which in effect does not exist in the form Marco has is pretty pointless. Though Marco is welcome to undertake one for his own pleasure. Nobody is going to be able to buy this or persuade Arthur to do one with a carbon tube especially in light of post #231.

Paul.

DSJR

09-03-2014, 11:33

The techie 1200mk2 onwards arm is a low fairly mass device ideal for fixed coil cartridges. It can be re-wired and foam filled by Johnnie (AO) for not too much money and a headshell of choice can be added, making it a good all-rounder I reckon. Doing the Funk thang on it costs £950 FFS. I don't doubt the measured improvements claimed one bit, but the cost......... I know many members here have thought nothing of spending many hundreds and even thousands in souping up their techies, so forgive me if I'm typing out of turn :mental:

Audioman

09-03-2014, 11:37

MartinT

09-03-2014, 11:49

+1. I think I have pointed out elsewhere that these arms are rather pricey for modified Regas/Technics and more in line with a completely ground up design.

A well modified Technics is capable of doing justice to some very exotic arms, Paul. Have you heard such a combination?

EDIT: ah, did you mean for modified arms? In which case, apologies, I misunderstood.

Marco

09-03-2014, 13:04

Incidentally, if anyone here can find anything I've written on this thread about The Funk Firm, its products or Arthur, that is even remotely libellous or constitutes as an allegation of fraud, then please quote it here for reference. This has got nothing to do with Richard's ridiculous threats of legal action, but rather my concern that I may have written something inadvertently which damages Arthur or Funk in some way.

If the quote supplied irrefutably confirms the allegations Richard has made against me, then I will not only donate £100 to the charity of their choice, as a thank you for pointing it out, but remove the offending remarks immediately. I've known Arthur for years, on what I'd consider as a friendly basis, and the last thing I'd want to do is damage either his company or him in any way.

I've read through the entire thread three times now, just in case I'd missed something, and I simply cannot find anything I've written that constitutes as libellous against The Funk Firm, or as an allegation of fraudulent behaviour against said company, and indeed neither can any of the moderators asked so far.

Therefore, if it exists, let's see some evidence, or if not then it's simply a figment of Richard's overactive imagination!

Marco.

Audioman

09-03-2014, 13:12

A well modified Technics is capable of doing justice to some very exotic arms, Paul. Have you heard such a combination?

EDIT: ah, did you mean for modified arms? In which case, apologies, I misunderstood.

I was talking about the basis v cost of the Funk arms not the turntables. Having heard a few modded versions I have no doubt they can be improved with expensive arms. Opinions on how much wonga it is worth throwing on improvements to the deck are going to vary.

EDIT -didn't see you changed the post before the above comment :)

Paul.

Marco

09-03-2014, 13:15

Personally I think any review of a product which in effect does not exist in the form Marco has is pretty pointless. Though Marco is welcome to undertake one for his own pleasure. Nobody is going to be able to buy this or persuade Arthur to do one with a carbon tube especially in light of post #231.

On balance, Paul, I'd agree, especially with the first sentence. I wouldn't have had time to write a 'full-blown' review anyway. However, I will continue to enjoy Darren's T/T, fitted with the FX-1200, and comment where necessary on aspects of its performance.

If nothing else, it gives me another opportunity to revisit the Funk platter vs. Mike New ETP platter again, and ensure that my preference for the latter wasn't imagined! ;)

Marco.

YNWaN

09-03-2014, 13:20

Graphite and carbon fibre are not the same thing and there seems to be some confusion between the two in some posts. I've made a cartridge spacer from carbon fibre sheet and have had made for me (to my specifications) a graphite platter and a number if mat designs (3 or 4).

losenotaminute

09-03-2014, 13:32

Incidentally, if anyone here can find anything I've written on this thread about The Funk Firm, its products or Arthur, that is even remotely libellous or constitutes as an allegation of fraud, then please quote it here for reference.

I thought the following was a bit dodgy TBH, it could have been interpreted as accusing Funk or Richard (or both) of being dishonest. Perhaps you could make it clear what you meant to avoid any doubt:

I have a feeling it won't be as carbon tube is difficult to manufacture to tight tolerances, on a repeatable basis.

Could that be the real reason why metal has all of a sudden become the 'de-facto standard' at Funk? Perhaps the box of carbon tubes Richard said were spare, were simply ones that didn't pass quality control, and thus were rejected?? :hmm:

Marco.

Marco

09-03-2014, 13:41

Hi Lawrence,

Thanks for pointing that out. What I meant by it is easily explained. I shall get to it after lunch, as right now I'm halfway through munching a rather nice piece of Sirloin! :)

Marco.

Marco

09-03-2014, 15:34

I thought the following was a bit dodgy TBH, it could have been interpreted as accusing Funk or Richard (or both) of being dishonest. Perhaps you could make it clear what you meant to avoid any doubt:

Ok, I can see how what I wrote there could've been misconstrued, and if the comments you've highlighted are what Piggy's getting all up in arms about, then he's WAY off-beam!

I made the perfectly valid point that when a manufacturer updates their product range it's not always about making SONIC improvements. *Sometimes* their hands are forced, due to practical considerations, such as some key parts or materials being discontinued by a supplier, thus them no longer being able to use those items in the design of their products - and therefore are forced into a rethink.

I remember that happening at Naim, when a key component in their CD players (I forget now which one it was), was discontinued by Pacific Microsonics, which forced nearly a whole rethink of their product range, and which to my ears, and those of many others, resulted in a new range of products producing a rather different, but inferior sound. However, the company of course promoted the change as being an 'improvement', as it made commercial sense to do so, even if in the eyes (or rather ears) of many Naim users, it was a retrograde step.

When Kevin (Cagey H) mentioned that carbon tube is difficult to manufacture to tight tolerances on a repeatable basis, I remembered that Richard said Arthur had a whole box of carbon tubes lying around spare, and I merely suggested that perhaps, due to the inconsistent quality (as I know how much of a perfectionist Arthur is), of the carbon arms, he'd abandoned using CF and instead had opted for aluminium, and those were the rejected tubes. It's as simple as that.

I wouldn't have intimated that perhaps the new metal-based ones were no better, sonically, and had only been introduced to solve quality control issues, if Richard hadn't made such a song and dance about my eulogising of Darren's carbon-tubed FX-1200, which for me smelled of an agenda, in terms of Funk not wanting any of their arms recommended that weren't to the same spec as the current FXR! Despite Funk naturally wanting to sell their current designs, surely people are still entitled to remark on the qualities of their discontinued ones?

Quite simply, every time I mentioned the advantages of the FX-1200, over the FXR, such as adjustment of VTA 'on the fly', and the fact that there would've been a market for the FX-1200 amongst Technics users, whether it had been fitted with a metal or carbon armtube, or whatever, was immaterial, if Arthur had marketed it properly in the first place, Richard went off on one of his usual rambling and incoherent rants, which made about as much sense as if he'd just written his diatribe in Swahili!

Also, what about the comments I had to endure from Richard (apparently sent via Arthur) that only those used to 'inferior arms', or some such, would think that the carbon-tubed FX-1200 was any good? Remember that insulting pish? Did I lose the plot with Richard about it? No, but it pissed me off at the time. The funniest thing about that comment was when SME tonearms were being touted as 'reference items', given that David Price had long since stated he considered that the (carbon-fibre tubed) Funk FX-II outperformed an SME V!! :lol:

Essentially all I've been 'guilty' of on this thread, in reference to the FX-1200 (or FXR) is giving my honest opinion, which I won't be pressurised into altering, just because it doesn't suit what some people want to hear!!! That's it in a nutshell.

However, in the spirit of goodwill, if it is considered that I should remove the comments in question, then I will do so, in order that they are not misinterpreted by anyone else, and to ensure that there is no possibility of doing any harm to Arthur or Funk.

Marco.

CageyH

09-03-2014, 17:34

Personally, I think it all got out of hand.
This is a forum to talk about common enjoyment of music, brought to us through the means of hifi, if I am not mistaken.
Please don't forget that my comment about carbon tubes is based on my own experience of a wet lay up method, which I don't think the FX1200 arm tube is, so it may well be a repeatable process for the manufacturer.

As we speak, my arm is (hopefully) winging it's way over to the Funk Firm, for the upgrade - if Richard believes it is infact an upgrade. From what I hear of Arthur, and comments that Marco has recently made, being a perfectionist he will not be happy if the carbon arm is "sub standard". He would also not have set up a listening test for Richard to compare the two if there was a danger of Carbon being the better option, so I am fairly confident that he Aluminium will be better.

Anyway, I will give my honest opinion when it arrives back to me.

Clive197

09-03-2014, 19:21

So, OLDPINKMAN is "MORTE", gone after a long squork. Pity but understandable, I'll miss his musings, rants, diatribes, stories about his friend Arfur and general meanderings through out little world. Oh well may he rant in peace.

Marco

09-03-2014, 19:30

Hi Kevin,

Personally, I think it all got out of hand.

I completely agree, but there's only one person responsible for that by talking nonsense about "fraud", "deceit" and threatening legal action over nothing, simply because he's thrown his toys out of the pram after not getting his own way!

It is precisely the threats of legal action that got Richard permanently banned, as Macca correctly observed. Before that I had every intention of bringing him back once his week's ban was up - that was until I spotted his antics 'elsewhere' this morning! :doh:

After reading that bollocks, there was simply no way I could've shared the same webspace as him again.

I never once said that carbon armtubes were superior, despite Richard insinuating such. Find a quote anywhere on this forum of me stating the contrary. My position has always been if Arthur says that aluminium ones are better on his tonearms, then they most likely are, but that doesn't mean that the carbon-fibre tubed FX-1200s aren't worthy in their own right, as indeed were other Funk arms, using carbon tubes, such as the FX-II and modified Ittok, both of which deservedly gained rave reviews!!

In short: aluminium may be superior, but carbon hasn't all of a sudden become bad overnight........ ;)

Therefore, I'm sure that when you get your FX-1200 back, fitted with an aluminium armtube, it will sound better than ever. I look forward to you posting your views on the matter.

Anyway, like you correctly say:

This is a forum to talk about common enjoyment of music, brought to us through the means of hifi, if I am not mistaken.

So let's get back to that now! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

09-03-2014, 21:47

Marco,

Any further thoughts on a good cartridge for this arm now that you have had a chance to listen to it?

I'll get back to you on that! :)

Marco.

Clive197

09-03-2014, 21:52

I was very interested in the reworked Technics arm but since I have understood that the arm mods cost in the region of £950 I have put the idea on the back burner. Other than the arm and internal strengthening is anything done to other parts of the arm like the bearings and rear stub?
On a side issue I would like to mention that I've found an improvement to my Techie that I've not seen mentioned before. I was advised by this forum not to replace the mains lead, so I didn't. But it's been bothering me, so I've come up with what I thought was an idea. I curled a small loop in the mains lead and added a ferrite as close to the deck as possible using the loop doubled through it. The result was mouth watering, dynamics and stage depth improved beyond expectation, though in truth I don't know what I expected. Has any of you guys played with the mains cable or tried ferrites?
Clive

MartinT

09-03-2014, 22:35

Clive197

10-03-2014, 00:00

Many of us use external power supplies with DC cables into the Technics, Clive. If a ferrite filter has that much effect on your sound, all indications are that you suffer from a lot of mains-borne interference. You might want to try a couple of plug-in absorbers like these Isoplugs around your house:
http://www.isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/products.pl?id=10

Thanks Martin, I was/am aware that the mains in this part of London is an issue and I've been addressing the issue for some years. It seems that unless I attend to all the 13 mains wires behind my equipment rack I get some sort of mains borne interference. The house was completely rewired two years ago and I do not get any switching issues but unfortunately with four adults (wife and 2 grown up(?)sons)in the house meaning three computers, four mobiles all with their own chargers, three iPads also with chargers and a mess of computer/hubs accessories all using SMPS my mains does not have a prayer. Hence the little that I could do with the mains wire to my Techie helps. I'm not convinced that separating the power supply is really that much of an issue if the mains going in is sorted. That of course opens up another can of worms. What about the thousands of belt drive TT's out there with noisy AC or DC motors and assorted power supplies all connected by a belt transferring noise and vibration to our precious vinyl. Removing the power supply from underneath the platter may very well make the Techie that much better, a hell of a lot of you seem to think so, I'm just suggesting that my little fix may result in the same or similar effect.

Clive

PS sorry for thread drift, now back to arm.