View Full Version : Anybody have the Funk Firm FX-1200 arm?
Clive197
10-03-2014, 12:05
In that case, Clive, start with a ferrite filter on the master mains input (to power strip or whatever) cable and add at least one noise absorber, like the IsoTek, on the ring main very close by, to start you off.
Martin been there, done that. Chord Powerchord to IsoTek Orion 6 way and Supra 2.5 LoRad to a Sound Fantastic 6 way.
Clive
Response to post 244
Members will know my stance: I comment solely factually and avoid entering into personal issues. This overrides and is irrespective of any commercial interest at the time. Never truer than here!!
I say this as I had regretfully determined never to post on this forum again because of the way in which forum leaders control the agenda and perpetuate misinformation.
Marco’s decision, however, to make an exception to his own rule regarding posts concerning HFS, has forced my hand and I have decided the circumstances demand this entry.
Imagine my incredulity, then, when I noted that several original posts have been doctored invisibly! Really? Well, Richard retains original screenshots - :eek:
But of those on the web as I write this post 176, 178, 189, and 202 would be examples of Marco of saying or strongly implying that carbon fibre was better, and needlessly accusing Richard of attempting to deceive when he supplied you with correct information about this product’s development in good faith.
(I would ask: What motive / benefit derives in such deceit?)
(Grab this quick before this too “never existed”)
Thus, I am grateful to him for having the courage to defend my and my firms integrity in the face of this utterly unfounded hostility in questioning my motives, particularly as he knew the consequences of failing to bow down and be cowed.
In absurdum: Email to Richard: I note that the administator’s real reason for removing Richard from the forum was his stance on mains cables – one I share? But then what would I know, I’m too busy deceiving people! :mad:
It is but one example of frustrating dishonesty which spoils what is otherwise a great forum and you have no idea how sad this has made me. To my mind, we all lose.:violin:
My final post? Probably.
But given I do still have paid for time remaining in the trade section, I might yet avail myself of that opportunity to air my personal take on 1200 - Yes, development is still ongoing (albeit sans AoS support).
Why? Because I’m me.
(Once expired, Let's see where I go.)
Arthur
Hi Arthur,
Thanks for your comments. I will address them shortly - just in the middle of doing something at the moment! :)
Marco.
:wave:
Arthur,
I am not sure if you have received my FX1200 yet, but I will be glad to know when it turns up. It should be there soon. (According to the tracking website, it's still where I left it, and it's not moved since last week!)
I'm still awaiting some feedback from Richard :banned: and I have put a bit more pressure on him for a decision, but I think I know the outcome already. :cool:
Okies...
I say this as I had regretfully determined never to post on this forum again because of the way in which forum leaders control the agenda and perpetuate misinformation.
I honestly haven't the faintest idea what you mean. Perhaps you could cite specific examples of what you're referring to? Are you referring to your fall-out with Martin, or something else? One thing I've learned from my exchanges with Richard is that misunderstandings easily occur, due to both of us misconstruing what the other has written! :doh:
Quite often I write something, which reads to me 100% clearly one way, only for Richard to take it as meaning something entirely different, and it appears you're the same, as you will see in a minute...
Imagine my incredulity, then, when I noted that several original posts have been doctored invisibly! Really? Well, Richard retains original screenshots - :eek:
I meant to tackle that issue before, but had forgotten about it, so thanks for reminding me. There's nothing underhand going on. Everyone has the facility to edit their posts, up to a certain timescale, if they change their mind and want to write something else, fix grammar/punctuation/spelling mistakes, or whatever. The only difference is that when I do it (or Nick, as he's our other Administrator), there is no trace. That's not because we've chosen it to be that way, but simply how the forum software works.
But of those on the web as I write this post 176, 178, 189, and 202 would be examples of Marco of saying or strongly implying that carbon fibre was better...
Unfortunately, that is where we have a problem. I've read all of those posts numerous times, and we seem to be experiencing communication issues.
Post 176 is simply me making the point that Funk tonearms aren't often discussed on AoS because not many of us have used them, hence why they're not often recommended, which was to counter Richard's accusation that all we talk about here are Jelcos, SMEs, etc. Yes, that's because it's what most of us know, that's all.
The other point I was making was that just because Richard and you consider the FXR (or any metal-based Funk arm) as being superior to a carbon-tubed FX-1200, doesn't mean that others will when they listen to the results in the context of their own turntable and system. The fact is, technical/measured superiority doesn't always translate into what a listener's ears prefer.
Therefore, that post has got nothing to do with me saying that "carbon fibre is better". At the end of the day, 'better' is only ever that which the listener prefers.
Post 178 is simply me making the point that, just like every other manufacturer, you like to promote your latest designs as being the best, however that may not necessarily be true for every user. It's entirely possible that some may prefer the sound of a carbon-tubed tonearm over a metal one, or vice versa, depending on synergy with the rest of the components in their system and the sonic signature both materials impose on music reproduced. At this point, see the emboldened text above.
Again, that post has got nothing to do with me saying that "carbon fibre is better".
Post 189 is best summed up by what I've written here:
The whole point, and crux of this matter, is that just because Arthur has suddenly discovered that aluminium sounds better to him than carbon-fibre, and subsequently is now using that material for the tubes on his tonearms, doesn't instantly devalue what Funk's (well-reviewed) previous CF-based tonearms are capable of...
Again, that post has got nothing to do with me saying that "carbon fibre is better", but rather when compared to aluminium it may not necessarily be worse to the listener of a specific system, with a specific set of priorities. The fact is, there are simply too many variables to predict a definite outcome.
Post 202 I've already explained. I was merely suggesting that your move to using aluminium on your tonearms, from CF, may have been forced upon you because of the lack of machining consistency with the latter (as was suggested by someone else), and as such the leftover CF armtubes were rejects, due to them not passing your quality control. Knowing how much of a perfectionist you are, I thought that notion was entirely possible.
However, if that's not true, which it appears it isn't, then I wholeheartedly retract my statement. Again, that's got nothing to do with me saying that "carbon fibre is better".
...and needlessly accusing Richard of attempting to deceive when he supplied you with correct information about this product’s development in good faith.
(I would ask: What motive / benefit derives in such deceit?)
(Grab this quick before this too “never existed”)
I wasn't accusing anyone of deceit, but I can see how it may have been interpreted as such. That part of the dispute was simply a misunderstanding.
Thus, I am grateful to him for having the courage to defend my and my firms integrity in the face of this utterly unfounded hostility in questioning my motives, particularly as he knew the consequences of failing to bow down and be cowed.
First of all, "the consequences" you're referring to occurred primarily because Richard started ranting on another site about legal action, over something which I didn't consider warranted any. Most of this sorry saga has been blown out of all proportion due to a series of misunderstandings, as evidenced by my going through the offending posts you listed, and demonstrating how they had one meaning for Richard (and you), and another for me.
Therefore, I extended his temporary ban (initially given because of his failure to reply to an urgent PM, regarding his unacceptable behaviour in reference to flouting our ethos), to a permanent one, as I simply couldn't have someone continuing to be a member here who was threatening legal action against me. Anyone else would've done the same.
As for this "utterly unfounded hostility", again I feel that that has been blown out of all proportion, simply due to the contents of certain posts not being interpreted by the recipient in the way it was intended by the author.
Think of it this way, Arthur: before this unfortunate debacle, haven't you and I always been friends? You used to phone me up for a chat and ask for my advice on certain matters, usually pertaining to the design of some new product you were due to launch.
Didn't I also defend you to the hilt on this very forum, during the time of that fiasco with Inspire Audio, where they were being accused of copying the Achromat, to the extent that I received some 'cease and desist' letters from their solicitors? I put my neck on the line for you, as I considered you a friend and disliked anyone being ripped off (and fought for Mike New against Dave Cawley for the same reasons). It therefore seems ironic now that we've gone full circle! :(
You know that I've always had a huge admiration for you as an audio designer, and in that respect I would draw your attention to posts 22, 33, 34, and 42 on this thread for evidence of that - and I still haven't changed my opinion! So why would I all of a sudden turn hostile against you??
I would put it to you, however, that post #57, where I dared to constructively criticise your lack of marketing the (superb) FX-1200 to the 100s of modified Technics users on AoS, as the point where it all went 'tits up'... Richard's response was initially supportive, but that changed when I eventually got to hear an FX-1200 at home on a turntable I know intimately well, and eulogised about how good it sounded.
From that point onwards, it was me who was subjected to the "utterly unfounded hostility" by Richard (seemingly prompted by you), simply because I'd given my honest opinion, which didn't appear to suit you, as said arm had a carbon-fibre armtube, and thus in your eyes (ears) was regarded as inferior.
There's one thing about me, Arthur, which you must accept, and that is that when I'm expressing my opinions on audio, I'm brutally honest, and so will always tell it as I see it, no matter if that 'upsets' anyone. It's simply the way it has to be if my opinions are to be treated by others with any credence, and so, in that respect, you and every other manufacturer or dealer must 'man up' and accept the rough with the smooth.
There can't be any flouncing off in a huff, simply because you've been told something you didn't want to hear! ;)
Anyway, Arthur, though there was absolutely no offence intended, I apologise for any that may have been caused - and I mean that sincerely.
My final post? Probably.
But given I do still have paid for time remaining in the trade section, I might yet avail myself of that opportunity to air my personal take on 1200 - Yes, development is still ongoing (albeit sans AoS support).
Why? Because I’m me.
I do hope that it's not your final post. I would dearly love to resolve this dispute to our mutual satisfaction, and with the support of AoS, help with the future development of your plans for the SL-1200. However, what happens now is entirely up to you. I await your response in due course :)
Marco.
Are you referring to your fall-out with Martin, or something else?
I honestly wish I understood this, Arthur. You seem to have taken offence at my expressing a preference for the Funk Mk. I platter over the Mk. II, from what I could hear of it (and it did struggle with speed stability possibly due to misalignment of the encoder wheel). I gave you my honest feedback and the door was then shut in my face. The platter is still in its box here in my office, awaiting collection.
We've done this to death but I, too, enjoyed our phone conversations about technical aspects of design very much.
I would be interested to hear the difference between all the platters, including the mk2 Funk when the encoder wheel has been accurately positioned. I don't know how an honest evaluation can be done when there is a speed issue with one of the products, for whatever reason. The encoder wheel not being properly aligned would have a massive effect on the sound quality.
I would also be interested to know if there is a big difference between all the platters in a more modest system, as mine has no comparison to Marco's or MartinT's systems, so what they hear, will not be the same as me.
I honestly wish I understood this, Arthur. You seem to have taken offence at my expressing a preference for the Funk Mk. I platter over the Mk. II, from what I could hear of it (and it did struggle with speed stability possibly due to misalignment of the encoder wheel). I gave you my honest feedback and the door was then shut in my face.
That also appears to be the case with me, unless Arthur chooses to respond to my last post. It seems that you're only useful if you pander to someone's sensibilities at the expense of being honest.
Sadly, Martin, given the recent exchanges I've had with Richard, via email, it appears that some folk can't handle honest feedback, which is largely what has caused this whole debacle.
Everything in the garden only appears as rosy when plaudits are being handed out to whatever it is *they* think deserves it!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
stupinder
11-03-2014, 09:54
The whole Funk modded Techy including the FX1200 arm was reviewed by Rod over on the Pig site a good while ago. I'll not link to it but those interested will know where to find it. It would be interesting to compare the Funk against my modded 1210 at some point in the future - if it happens i'll report back.
26 pages about a bloody tone-arm, come on guys you need to get out more, its nearly spring :lol:
Arthur, it would be nice to meet you at Brighton, hope our paths cross :)
I would be interested to hear the difference between all the platters, including the mk2 Funk when the encoder wheel has been accurately positioned. I don't know how an honest evaluation can be done when there is a speed issue with one of the products, for whatever reason. The encoder wheel not being properly aligned would have a massive effect on the sound quality.
Absolutely, Kevin, but all Martin did was report what he heard within the constraints he was given. As the MKII Funk platter he received was faulty, then of course that fact must be taken into consideration in any comments made in reference to its performance.
Arthur should've rectified the situation, by sending Martin a replacement platter, which he would've then been able to review fairly against both the MKI Funk platter he had, along with the Mike New ETP.
Instead, the faulty MKII platter is still lying in its box at Martin's awaiting collection, so what's that all about? :confused:
In any case, as I have Darren's Funk MKI platter here, currently fitted to his turntable, then along with posting my detailed thoughts in due course on his FX-1200, I intend to revisit the comparison of said platter, versus the Mike New ETP, and also make further comment on that.
I would also be interested to know if there is a big difference between all the platters in a more modest system, as mine has no comparison to Marco's or MartinT's systems, so what they hear, will not be the same as me.
Indeed - you're absolutely right. That also applies to claims of aluminium armtubes being sonically superior to carbon-fibre ones. To some they might be. However, the reality is, 'superior' is what YOU hear it as in YOUR system. At the end of the day, *that* is the only 'superior' that matters.
Marco.
Hi Stu,
It would be interesting to compare the Funk against my modded 1210 at some point in the future - if it happens i'll report back.
Which "Funk" are you referring to? :)
Marco.
stupinder
11-03-2014, 13:49
Hi Stu,
Which "Funk" are you referring to? :)
Marco.
This (http://hifipig.com/the-funk-firm-technics-sl1200/) one. Has the Funk platter, the FX 1200 arm and Achromat. I've played with Achromats in the past on relative standard 1210s to good effect - perhaps I'll have a go with one on my much more fannyed about with version befor going the whole hog and doing a platter upgrade of whichever flavour :-).
Gordon Steadman
11-03-2014, 14:04
Hi Stu,
Which "Funk" are you referring to? :)
Marco.
Split infinitives play absolute havoc with turntables:eyebrows:
Cool... Nice read! It doesn't seem that the carbon-fibre tube of the FX-1200 'held things back' too much there either! ;)
Ditto here, on Darren's turntable..... So what does that tell you?
Marco.
Split infinitives play absolute havoc with turntables:eyebrows:
<Giggle>
I'm off for a funk!
Marco.
rubber duck
11-03-2014, 14:12
Cool... Nice read! It doesn't seem that the carbon-fibre tube of the FX-1200 'held things back' too much there either! ;)
Ditto here, on Darren's turntable..... So what does that tell you?
Marco.
Well, it might suggest that the aluminium arm tube could be really special. Some measurements of CF vs aluminium would be really instructive given that listening to (let alone comparing) both arm tubes may not be an option. Arthur?
An aluminium tube wasn't used on the arm, fitted to the superb review of a Funk Firm Technics SL-1200 on Hi-fi Pig, nor is one fitted to the (equally superb sounding) FX-1200 on Darren's SL-1200, which I have sitting here, so what relevance does an aluminium armtube have in *that* context, Jeff?
I don't doubt that the new aluminium tube might be even better, but there seems to be a concerted effort from some to try and bury what the carbon-tubed FX-1200 achieved, simply because its now been replaced by an aluminium-based version. Why, one can only surmise...
Measurements are only relevant to an extent, as they only tell part of the story. What matters most, in the real world, is how something sounds to the end user, in the context of his or her system, not measurements.
Marco.
Context is important. What I am expecting is even sharper edges, increased separation and a further improved sound stage. The point is that the carbon arm costs the same as the metal arm, so why not have the better of the two? Just like the platters. The Funk was good, but in the context of your system you preferred the ETP, and if I am correct, the improvement was subtle?
The law of diminishing returns comes into play again.
Why would Arthur supply what he considers to be an inferior product, just because he has stock left?
That would make perfect business sense, but he has chosen to swallow the cost of the carbon tubes he has, and only fit aluminium. It does not make financial sense to me, and I know he can build carbon arms, as I have one.
Context is important.
Context is not just important, Kevin, it is everything...
What I am expecting is even sharper edges, in teased separation and a further improved sound stage.
So are you telling us that you've now had your arm back, fitted with the aluminium tube, and that's what you're hearing? :)
The point is that the carbon arm costs the same as the metal arm, so why not have the better of the two? Just like the platters. The Funk was good, but in the context of your system you preferred the ETP, and if I am correct, the improvement was subtle?
In the final analysis, one would always go with what sounded best, so if you consider the aluminium tube is better, that's all that matters.
The platter wasn't an easy one for me, which is why I continued using the Funk MKI platter for sometime before I got to hear an ETP platter in my system. I was really rather reluctant to change from the Funk, as I'd used and enjoyed it on my T/T for some time, so it had to be sonically worthwhile.
The telling comparison, however, happened at Martin's place when both my T/T and his were present, and we had two magnet assemblies to play with, allowing quick and easy comparisons between both the Funk MKI platter and the ETP, which having only one magnet assembly at home made comparisons more difficult.
We did a lot of listening that day to various permutations, not just between the platters present, but with mats. After very careful consideration, we concluded that the winner was the ETP platter 'au naturel', with no mat, which produced a clearer, more expressive sound, particularly with vocals, where the Funk platter was a little more diffuse in that respect. In essence, a slight veil on proceedings was lifted when the Funk platter was substituted for the ETP.
However, the difference wasn't 'night and day', which is why I wouldn't rush to recommend anyone to use one platter over the other, and some listeners could've indeed preferred the Funk, but the improvement the ETP brought to proceedings, using either my T/T or Martin's, in the end was significant enough for me to go with that.
Why would Arthur supply what he considers to be an inferior product, just because he has stock left?
That would make perfect business sense, but he has chosen to swallow the cost of the carbon tubes he has, and only fit aluminium. It does not make financial sense to me, and I know he can build carbon arms, as I have one.
No-one, certainly not me, is saying that Arthur would intentionally supply an inferior product. In fact knowing him as I do, I doubt that would be in his DNA. All I'm saying is that, as good as the aluminium-tubed FX-1200 is, it shouldn't demean what the carbon-tubed one is capable of, which is also excellent - that's all! :cool:
Marco.
So are you telling us that you've now had your arm back, fitted with the aluminium tube, and that's what you're hearing?
Marco,
The key words are "What I am expecting." Arthur hasn't even received my arm yet, but I have taken a stab at what I guess a stiffer arm tube will give me. It's an interesting point of reference for when I receive my arm back modded. It may take a little while, but you can quote me on my expectations.
I am always interested to hear other peoples opinions on products, as buying products "deaf" is always difficult, but context is just one part of the question for me. Affordability, for me is also very important as I am currently also renovating my house, and even though my upgrades are important to me, my wife does not give two hoots!
Marco,
The key words are "What I am expecting."
Yup, my boob - trying to do too many things at once at the moment!
Arthur hasn't even received my arm yet, but I have taken a stab at what I guess a stiffer arm tube will give me. It's an interesting point of reference for when I receive my arm back modded. It may take a little while, but you can quote me on my expectations.
Lol - just watch you don't become a victim of 'expectation bias'! ;)
Affordability, for me is also very important...
Absolutely! That goes without question. Context, however, is everything in terms of assessing how good something actually is to YOU.
Marco.
I am aware of the dangers, and I will do what I did before - Post my honest opinion of what it sounds like in comparison to what I am using now - the AO modified RB251. I can't honestly remember what the carbon arm sounded like in detail apart from what I posted here. If I like it, I'll let you know.
However, just bear in mind that even though my arm is on it's way back to the Funk Firm, if Richard dies not believe the difference between the two is big enough, there is a chance that it will come back unmodified. I personally doubt it will be carbon when it arrives back, but I have asked him not to tell me what he has heard, so I don't have any preconceptions of what I am hearing.
I am aware of the dangers, and I will do what I did before - Post my honest opinion of what it sounds like in comparison to what I am using now - the AO modified RB251. I can't honestly remember what the carbon arm sounded like in detail apart from what I posted here. If I like it, I'll let you know.
However, just bear in mind that even though my arm is on it's way back to the Funk Firm, if Richard dies not believe the difference between the two is big enough, there is a chance that it will come back unmodified. I personally doubt it will be carbon when it arrives back, but I have asked him not to tell me what he has heard, so I don't have any preconceptions of what I am hearing.
But, but, but what if Richard doesn't die? Use that auto-correct to perish the thought!
PaulStewart
12-03-2014, 00:47
Why would Arthur supply what he considers to be an inferior product, just because he has stock left?
To be honest folks and let me make it plain I'm NOT referring to either Funk Firm or PT for thay matter, I know of a number of firms who develop the mark 2 alongside the original product, sell what they know is a good but less than optimum product and then offer an "upgrade" at a price. Sadly thgis sort of thing is seen as commercial sense as is built in redundancy and limited life products. It's not just HiFi this approach is rife in the computing, photography and video fields.
rubber duck
12-03-2014, 01:13
An aluminium tube wasn't used on the arm, fitted to the superb review of a Funk Firm Technics SL-1200 on Hi-fi Pig, nor is one fitted to the (equally superb sounding) FX-1200 on Darren's SL-1200, which I have sitting here, so what relevance does an aluminium armtube have in *that* context, Jeff?
I thought the context was whether the new aluminium armtube was better than the CF given that this is what Kevin is trying to work out?
Measurements are only relevant to an extent, as they only tell part of the story.
Agreed. But in this case, surely it tells a large part of the story given the quite striking measurements which also appear to be the main selling point of the FX arm. If the aluminium measures better than the cf tube, then we might expect it to sound better. If not, then it might be just a matter of preference. My observation of hi-fi is that a product is usually really good until something better comes along!
What matters most, in the real world, is how something sounds to the end user, in the context of his or her system, not measurements.
This is a slippery slope Marco! It’s all well and fine for someone to like something which is measurably flawed. A resonant tonearm may sound great if for e.g. it has a HF peak at say 1kHz which happens to complement a pair of speakers with a massive dip around that region. But this in itself does not tell us whether that arm is better/worse or any good. Surely we need to a point of reference to have some general idea and agreement of what constitutes excellence?
To be honest folks and let me make it plain I'm NOT referring to either Funk Firm or PT for thay matter, I know of a number of firms who develop the mark 2 alongside the original product, sell what they know is a good but less than optimum product and then offer an "upgrade" at a price. Sadly thgis sort of thing is seen as commercial sense as is built in redundancy and limited life products. It's not just HiFi this approach is rife in the computing, photography and video fields.
I have seen this before, but stated earlier in this thread was a post by OldPinkMan explaining that Arthur recalled all the carbon arms and upgraded them. A product recall is a no cost to the client upgrade, so I stand by my statement that not using the carbon arms does not make financial sense.
Hi Jeff,
I thought the context was whether the new aluminium armtube was better than the CF given that this is what Kevin is trying to work out?
If you scroll back, you'll see that my comments followed Stu (Hi-Fi Pig's) link to the excellent review of the 'Funk Firm SL-1200', in Hi-Fi Pig, containing a carbon-fibre based FX-1200, where the reviewer outlined that the turntable sounded superb, in the same way as Darren's SL-1200, fitted with the same arm, sounds superb here in my system.
I then asked: 'What does that tell you?' Well, it tells you that, despite the possibility of an aluminium/metal arm sounding even better, the carbon-fibre one, fitted to a turntable that had gained such a good review, doesn't appear to have held things back too much!
*That* is the point I was making. It's not only about how much better a metal arm may be, but also how good the carbon-fibre one is in its own right.
I trust you can see where I'm coming from now? :)
Agreed. But in this case, surely it tells a large part of the story given the quite striking measurements which also appear to be the main selling point of the FX arm. If the aluminium measures better than the cf tube, then we might expect it to sound better. If not, then it might be just a matter of preference. My observation of hi-fi is that a product is usually really good until something better comes along!
Sure, if that's your view. My view is that, in the real world, 'better', sonically, is only ever that which is preferable to the listener, and since we're talking about a hi-fi component, designed to reproduce recorded music, and not some piece of lab equipment, sound quality/musical ability is what matters most, and is ultimately what any tonearm will be judged on, not on how nice a squiggly line (or otherwise) its resonance characteristics produces on a graph.
This is a slippery slope Marco! It’s all well and fine for someone to like something which is measurably flawed. A resonant tonearm may sound great if for e.g. it has a HF peak at say 1kHz which happens to complement a pair of speakers with a massive dip around that region. But this in itself does not tell us whether that arm is better/worse or any good. Surely we need to a point of reference to have some general idea and agreement of what constitutes excellence?
I agree, and so that's why the right measurements tell us an important part of the story, but we need more...
For the other important part, we have to listen and judge the sonic and musical abilities of a tonearm, in the context of our T/Ts and systems, which let's not forget are all built upon a series of compromises, not to mention how the sonic signature of the tonearm itself marries with that of the partnering cartridge, which is why there is no such thing as a 'best' material for every application.
Think about it: if there was such a material, then every tonearm produced in the world would use it..... As there's no such thing, that's why tonearms all look different and are constructed from different materials and design philosophies.
At the end of the day, the 'best' tonearm in any context will be the one whose sonic characteristics blend most seamlessly into our own system and work synergistically with that of the rest of the assembled components, in order to produce what we consider, in that context, is the most desirable sound.
If we're simply working on the premise of what is "measurably flawed", then vinyl replay itself is measurably flawed, in comparison with digital, but that doesn't stop many of us considering that the former is 'better'! So what does that tell you about measurements? ;)
Sometimes in hi-fi, in order to arrive at the right answers, we must put our prejudices and preconceptions aside and think outside of the box.
Marco.
JazzBones
12-03-2014, 16:18
Stone the bloody crows mate, who in their right mind would want to be the owner of a website related to all things audio.... not me amigos?!!!! Must be the money or groupies throwing themselves at you?!
The taboos of life seem to be don't discuss politics, don't discuss religion, don't tell your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend that their arse looks big when they ask... and a definite NO BLOODY NO, is don't dispute some one's preference in the choice of audio equipment and all things Hi dee Hi Fi. I'm off to lie in a darken room for be me arvo nap ;)
Marco,
Although the choice of material is always an interesting point, the method of using that material is the more important/interesting one. Carbon fibre reinforced plastic can be used in many different ways, with different methods for building up the relevant thickness and form required. Not all will give the same result sonically. Just because something is CFRP based, it does not mean it's stiff. If you change the ply orientation in a lay up slightly, you can get a different response from the finished product. The majority of CFRP I have seen has a certain amount of flex in it.
The whole concept of (what I understand about after pre-purchase researching) the F.X concept is to eliminate the flex by having a stiff beam. The internally braced tube does this well, but you will still get minor flex in the assembly. I am not sure about how the carbon tube was manufactured, and what the tolerances are, but the end result speaks volumes for the concept. From what I have read, this concept has now been further developed by trying a different material, which gives a better result sonically. I have seen more favourable reviews for the metal tube version of the F.X concept than I have for the CFRP version. The reason behind this is probably because not many CFRP versions exist anymore.
I really don't know when the FX1200 was first reviewed, but ai guess it was a few years ago?
However, I think that we can agree that the concept, and indeed application of that concept by the Funk Firm on a standard Technics arm does superb things to the sound quality of the arm. It addresses all the weaknesses. For me, if the metal version of this takes the improvements a step further, then what is there not to like about it?
I'll post my thoughts when it gets back, after enough listening time to give it an honest appraisal.
Marco,
Not all will give the same result sonically. Just because something is CFRP based, it does not mean it's stiff. If you change the ply orientation in a lay up slightly, you can get a different response from the finished product. The majority of CFRP I have seen has a certain amount of flex in it.
Check out the Pro-ject CF loaded tonearms for proof. They ring like bells and sound 'exciting' to certain reviewers who like that sort of thing. There's another well known firm that does things to Rega arms - makes 'em sing along with the music - and this is 'supposed' to be better...
Such a shame these Funk mods are so expensive, as they do seem to make good sense here in engineering terms..
However, I think that we can agree that the concept, and indeed application of that concept by the Funk Firm on a standard Technics arm does superb things to the sound quality of the arm. It addresses all the weaknesses. For me, if the metal version of this takes the improvements a step further, then what is there not to like about it?
Nothing whatsoever. I accept what you're saying, but it's just a pity that for those who would've been interested in using either a metal or carbon-fibre based FX-1200, that the manufacturer has closed that particular door, and wrongly, IMHO.
Yes, of course there is the FXR, but in terms of Technics T/T users, that's just A-N-other high quality tonearm - albeit I'm sure a very good one - but it doesn't have the uniqueness and niche appeal of its Technics-derived brother.
I look forward to your appraisal of the re-tubed FX-1200 when it arrives :)
Marco.
Stone the bloody crows mate, who in their right mind would want to be the owner of a website related to all things audio.... not me amigos?!!!! Must be the money or groupies throwing themselves at you?!
The taboos of life seem to be don't discuss politics, don't discuss religion, don't tell your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend that their arse looks big when they ask... and a definite NO BLOODY NO, is don't dispute some one's preference in the choice of audio equipment and all things Hi dee Hi Fi. I'm off to lie in a darken room for be me arvo nap ;)
Strewth mate, people locked in dark rooms with keyboards/laptops scrolling waffle about a 9" long bit of metal, what would outsiders think of it! :lol:
Except that in this case it's CFRP :ner:
Strewth mate, people locked in dark rooms with keyboards/laptops scrolling waffle about a 9" long bit of metal, what would outsiders think of it!
Granted that it's not quite as interesting as it would have been reading your missus telling us tales about your 2-inch long 'walloper', and what outsiders would think of THAT!! :eek: :rfl:
Marco.
The following link to a review of the 'Funk Firm Ittok', in HFW, was posted earlier, but in terms of the ensuing 'metal versus carbon-fibre' debate, I think its contents deserve further scrutiny. I would advise anyone who's been following this debate to read the review thoroughly, as I think it outlines rather nicely the possible sonic trade-offs between metal and CF armtubes:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/34-arms/159-funk-firm-ittok.html
The interesting but for me is here, where it outlines what the reviewer perceived as the benefits of CF (provided by the Funk mods), together with the weaknesses of metal:
There’s an easier quality to the lower midband, making a standard Ittok now sound a little forceful in comparison. With that slightly reduced emphasis on the midrange comes a tangibly superior separation of instruments, and more natural tonal colouring. Unamplified instruments benefit well in particular. Acoustic guitars are the biggest giveaway here, as the Funk Ittok made a better job of describing the differences between a steel-strung acoustic and a classical guitar with nylon strings. Where a stock Ittok makes them both sound a little, well, steely, the classical instrument was that much more convincing once a carbon-fibre tubed Ittok was put in place. Singing voices also exhibited improved segregation. Where a solo singer has multi-tracked their voice, or a low-level harmony part is present, these tricks are now more obvious to the ear.
...and the end of the review, where he outlines the benefits that the stock metal armtube brought to the party, together with the perceived weaknesses of CF:
Before we get all excited that the new arm is the panacea for every sonic vice your ears can imagine, I should point out a couple of reservations about its new slant on sound. This may not necessarily be an issue with the upgrade engineering though.
Bass swing was not always so compelling, so that the meter of the music took more effort to follow. Music still flowed nicely, but the instinct to snap your fingers was calmed a little. And at the top treble end, I felt hi-hats lost a modicum of their focus and were not so clean, nor a ride cymbal so bell-like in its extended harmonics. With reference to the ‘Heart of the Sunrise’ test piece, for example, Chris Squire’s bass lines were deprived of some of their slam and punch, and with that the depth and definition I’m used to from the metal-tubed Linn arm. The pinpoint imaging of a hi-hat was subdued so that there was more a cloud of shimmering bronze.
My question mark about the top-end trade-off in particular is due to the age of the upgraded tonearm supplied for review. Where the standard Ittok LVII B I’m used to is a well-preserved 1988 example that I’ve owned from new, the Funk-supplied sample started life as a 1982 model, and one that’s seen somewhat more use, to judge by its outward finish. And that reduced focus in certain areas is not untypical for an Ittok with less than pristine bearings.
But returning to the benefits of the upgrade, there was a universal tendency – or at least option – to play louder, as the sometime shouty quality of the Ittok had been impressively reined in. Midrange again was the major recipient of play without strain.
What is clear is that there were pros and cons with both materials, with each bringing with them their own sets of strengths and weaknesses, as is highlighted by the text in blue. The highlighted text in red, in reference to the effect of the carbon-fibre modified Ittok, I find particularly interesting, as regardless of anything else, those are traits I would normally associate as being delivered by a fundamentally better tonearm.
However, as all hi-fi is a series of trade-offs, amounting to the listener choosing a balance of compromises that best suits him or her and their system, one would presume that this would also apply to an FX-1200, fitted with either a CF or metal armtube.... In that respect, it would've been interesting if Kevin could've heard the 'before & after' effects of his FX-1200 going from having a CF armtube fitted, to an aluminium one, as that would've told us what the sonic advantages and disadvantages were of both materials, as no material or hi-fi component is ever perfect.
The fact is, even with Funk now using aluminium metal to facilitate their F•X technology, rather than carbon-fibre, it does not remove from the equation the inherent sonic signature of both armtube materials, imbued on music reproduced, as a result of their respective resonance properties, which regardless of the advantages/benefits F•X technology brings, will still exert a fundamental influence on proceedings, sonically, as outlined in the above review. Therefore, that fact must also be considered in any assessment of an FX-1200, fitted with either a CF or metal armtube, or indeed when comparing the effects of using either material on any other tonearm.
One question, though: the stock armtube of the Ittok under review was obviously of metal construction, but is anyone aware of which type of metal was used - aluminium, stainless steel or what? Dave (DSJR), perhaps you could shed some light on this one, mate? :)
Marco.
Incidentally, in case there's any confusion, some may wish to absorb, in particular, the contents of this paragraph:
The fact is, even with Funk now using aluminium metal to facilitate their F•X technology, rather than carbon-fibre, it does not remove from the equation the inherent sonic signature of both armtube materials, imbued on music reproduced, as a result of their respective resonance properties, which regardless of the advantages/benefits F•X technology brings, will still exert a fundamental influence on proceedings, sonically, as outlined in the above review. Therefore, that fact must also be considered in any assessment of an FX-1200, fitted with either a CF or metal armtube, or indeed when comparing the effects of using either material on any other tonearm.
Marco.
Nothing whatsoever. I accept what you're saying, but it's just a pity that for those who would've been interested in using either a metal or carbon-fibre based FX-1200, that the manufacturer has closed that particular door, and wrongly, IMHO.
Yes, of course there is the FXR, but in terms of Technics T/T users, that's just A-N-other high quality tonearm - albeit I'm sure a very good one - but it doesn't have the uniqueness and niche appeal of its Technics-derived brother.
I look forward to your appraisal of the re-tubed FX-1200 when it arrives :)
Marco.
If the price is the same, and the metal tubed version is better, why would you want the carbon one?
I think the majority of the cost comes from the assembly/modification process, and not necessarily the component costs.
This is a total guess on my part, but volume purchasing would bring costs down, but I am pretty sure it is time consuming to strip a Technics arm, modify it to suit the new "beam" and rewire it. I think it is also probably time consuming to construct the F.X beam.
The only way to reduce costs would be to fully productionise the process, but I guess that as only three arms exist for a drop in solution for a Technics deck, that the demand just isn't there to take advantage of reduced costs through volume, so each arm follows a bespoke process. It's a shame, as it sounded rather good.
There is a chance that if Arthur pulls the plug on the Technics arm modifications, that my arm will be unique. I seriously hope that he doesn't as more people should consider this option of a tone arm upgrade. It lifts the performance in a major way. I don't know how much a rewire and quality external cable cost, but when you take into consideration that these are upgraded as well, along with a general health check of the arm, and bearing replacement if required, the cost to me seems pretty reasonable for what you gain in sound quality.
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on cartridges Marco. I hope you have had time to swap out the cartridge Darren has fitted for something more "exotic". From what I have heard/experienced with my modest cartridges, it makes them sound pretty special.
Audioman
13-03-2014, 17:26
Some information that explains the redundancy of the Carbon Fibre arm from former member Richard which can be read elsewhere.
The FXII is supposed to be part of a complete Funk arm range eventually which will include more upmarket models. The most important aspect of the design of the FX and likely other arms to be released is the internal bracing not a Carbon fibre tube. Rather than wait for the time to develop the next better arm in the range AK decided to incorporate the improvements brought about by the metal tube for the same price as he wanted an arm out there that challenged SME V, Graham etc. Apparently the CF version falls short of this goal.
Also a cheaper arm has been launched the F5. This uses different design ideas but is close in performance to the CF FXII. Hence there was no need to keep a CF FX in the range as you can have the same performance for less than half the money. So the FX CF is a redundant product/idea that is superseded by a better arm for the same money and same performance can be had by buying a cheaper Funk arm. The obvious conclusion is that discussing a now non existent and inferior product to current production is rather a pointless exercise.
Paul.
... as more people should consider this option of a tone arm upgrade. It lifts the performance in a major way. I don't know how much a rewire and quality external cable cost, but when you take into consideration that these are upgraded as well, along with a general health check of the arm, and bearing replacement if required, the cost to me seems pretty reasonable for what you gain in sound quality.
Very interesting that the tonearm itself is so vital. Before I purchased the Jelco for my Techie I had a look at the Origin Live website and their thesis, (and Funk's) is that the arm is absolutely critical. It is good to know your experience backs up this notion.
If the price is the same, and the metal tubed version is better, why would you want the carbon one?
It depends on whose idea of "better" you're talking about! ;)
As I've outlined before, different armtube materials have different inherent sonic signatures, due to their respective resonance characteristics, some of which will synergise, sonically, with that of certain cartridges better than others... Ah, the cartridge... That's right, best think about what its needs are too, eh, rather than simply getting carried away with which armtube in isolation is 'best', as an armtube on its own won't sound very good!!
For example, would a 'duller' (than metal) sounding carbon-fibre armtube marry best, in that respect, with a dull sounding cartridge? Unlikely, I suspect. Equally, would a brighter (than CF) sounding metal armtube marry best, in that respect, with a bright sounding cartridge? Mmm... I trust you can see where I'm going with this? It's a system of synergistically matched components you're building, not the world's 'bestest armtube'!!! ;)
Essentially, the point I'm making is this:
The 'best armtube', or tonearm, if we look at the bigger picture, to the listener (who at the end of the day is the person whose opinion matters most), is that which forms the most sonically symbiotic relationship with the partnering cartridge, not the one which, notionally, has the 'best' armtube, simply because it measures the best or best meets the design criteria favoured by a specific manufacturer. After all, the manufacturer won't be choosing your cartridge for you - YOU will.
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on cartridges Marco. I hope you have had time to swap out the cartridge Darren has fitted for something more "exotic". From what I have heard/experienced with my modest cartridges, it makes them sound pretty special.
Lol... Unfortunately I haven't had a chance yet to swap out Darren's cartridge. We'll see how that goes, but I'm up to my eyes in it at the moment, and I've only got his T/T for a short while. Anyway, enough about me, I bet you can't wait to get your tonearm back - I'm sure it'll be ace! :cool:
Marco.
I am looking forwards to getting it back. It seems like it's been gone for ages, but I only posted it last week.
There is still no sign of a 2nd hand platter, so I am chucking as much cash to one side as possible.
A platter and new cartridge are likely to cost me the best part of £1k :mental:, so I need to make the right choice about which one I get.
I thought my other hobbies were expensive, but this is now getting there as well.
Hi Paul,
Rather than wait for the time to develop the next better arm in the range AK decided to incorporate the improvements brought about by the metal tube for the same price as he wanted an arm out there that challenged SME V, Graham etc. Apparently the CF version falls short of this goal.
That's an enviable goal, and I hope he achieves it. However, David Price is already on record as saying that the CF FXII spanks an SME V, so I suggest that Funk aim a little higher! ;)
Also a cheaper arm has been launched the F5. This uses different design ideas but is close in performance to the CF FXII. Hence there was no need to keep a CF FX in the range as you can have the same performance for less than half the money. So the FX CF is a redundant product/idea that is superseded by a better arm for the same money and same performance can be had by buying a cheaper Funk arm.
That's interesting - I shall follow the progress of its development with interest.
The obvious conclusion is that discussing a now non existent and inferior product to current production is rather a pointless exercise.
Not at all... That presumes that all people are interested in reading about are current production items. The Past Masters section of the forum is full of discussions on 'old classics', which generate great interest, so I don't see why discussing a defunct Funk arm should be any different!! :eyebrows:
Besides, as I'm currently assessing the merits (and otherwise) of a CF FX-1200, I shall be discussing it plenty in due course. Doing so, is as relevant as discussing any of the vintage components in my system, which are also obsolete. Just because something is no longer commercially produced doesn't mean that it's no longer worthy of any mention, or that it won't be of interest to others.
Marco.
From what I have read elsewhere, there are a couple of arms on the drawing board as well as the F5, and an arm between the F5 and the FXR (from what I see on the web, it's likely to be the F6).
Interesting times.
Interesting, yes, but I hope there are enough customers out there to buy all these different arms.......
Marco.
There is already a plethora of arms available, and with vinyl sales on the increase, things are looking up at the moment.
Cool... I sincerely wish them all the best!
Marco.
My comment was about the general increase in vinyl sales, which should hopefully lead to a stronger market. I have no idea about the financial status of any particular firm.
Indeed. The "them" was in reference to those making the tonearms.
Incidentally, it should be noted that my previous comments about 'best' tonearms were made from the point of view of an end user, not a designer, just in case there should be any confusion!
That fact should've been obvious anyway, as I'm not qualified to comment on tonearm design, but I am qualified to comment, from years of experience of experimenting with a multitude of tonearms and cartridges, as an end user, on what in my opinion is likely to produce the best sound.
I'm sure that when your tonearm is returned, it will sound excellent, so you have no worries on that score. However, that aside, on a wider issue, the only person who can judge what is 'best' about any aspect of their system is he or she who owns it - and that includes tonearms, or the armtubes that form part of their design, so in that respect the only 'best' I'm interested in is MY best, not anyone else's 'best'.
Therefore, in the context of my T/T and system, if my ears tell me that, for example, a CF-tubed FX-1200 sounds better with, say, my Lyra cartridge than an aluminium-tubed version does, or vice versa, then it *is* better, regardless if the manufacturer of that tonearm considers one version as technically inferior, 'defunct' or whatever, because at the end of the day, ALL that matters is what achieves the best sonic synergy in MY system.
The point is, in that context, the end user is the 'expert judge', NOT the tonearm manufacturer or anyone else!! ;)
It's entirely your choice, Kevin, that you've allowed others to make up your mind for you on which armtube is 'best' for your tonearm, and like I said I'm sure it will turn out well, but the fact is they won't be using it in the same system as you, and that puts them at a distinct disadvantage in terms of deciding what is 'best', for YOU.
Marco.
If you see it in the classifieds after the upgrade, then you will know I don't like it. I will be honest with my appraisal.
I bought it "deaf" and I am having it upgraded "deaf".
Someone has to be the first to take the plunge.
This is also part of the problem with a bespoke service. I did ask if it was possible to have my spare arm upgraded so I could do a comparison. This was a tongue in cheek request, as I don't know anybody who would build me a bespoke arm for the upgrade cost. However, if you don't ask you don't get.
I really am not sure what to do if I don't like the new version of my arm in the context of my system.
However, everything in life is a bit of a gamble and life is sometimes too short to worry about it.
I completely agree. What I said was simply to outline, ultimately, what constitutes as being 'best' or 'better' in anyone's system, which is not what any hi-fi manufacturer, or anyone else, says is 'best'.
I've bought much of my current system 'blind', including importing a brand new, fully KAB-modified SL-1210MK5G, from the States (costing then in excess of £1500 which I had to pay for up front to a complete stranger, 1000s of miles away, having chosen modifications to it that I had no idea how they would perform, on a T/T which at that point I'd never heard in my own system), so trust me, I know all about taking gambles! ;)
I'm sure that yours will work out just fine :)
Marco.
Marco,
Have you had a chance to try any other cartridges?
I was tempted to go for a 2M Black, but reviews suggest that my AT150MLX is very similar, so my next choice is an SAE1000 LT at the moment, unless someone can suggest a better cartridge for reasonable money?
There is an SAE 1000LT on it's way.
I could not resist any longer! :eyebrows:
Nice one, mate. However, when are you getting your tonearm back from Funk? Is it waiting to be blessed with Arthur's bath water, or something? :eyebrows:
How long's it been away for now - 2 weeks?
Marco.
Yes, two weeks.
Arthur is busy preparing for a few shows (Brighton and Munich?) and I would rather he did this before "rushing" to do my arm. If he has time, he'll do a proper job.
No worries, just having a giggle! :D
Marco.
I have just found an Ortofon 2M Black for a good price. :eek:
Lets just say that the Mrs is going to kill me when she finds out. :doh:
I reckon a black FX1200 with a 2M black is going to look cool, and sound superb!
Now, where is that bargain platter?
DarrenHW
30-03-2014, 07:49
I have just found an Ortofon 2M Black for a good price. :eek:
Lets just say that the Mrs is going to kill me when she finds out. :doh:
I reckon a black FX1200 with a 2M black is going to look cool, and sound superb!
Now, where is that bargain platter?
Nice one! After speaking with Marco, the 2M Black will probably be my next cart, should also be a very good looking combo :drool:
And more importantly, it should sound fantastic.
Remember the 2M black needs a lower than normal capacitance for loading (and resistive loading), many MM stages have too much and it causes a large midrange spike in the frequency response...
Thanks for the info.
The designer of my phono stage currently uses a 2M Black with it, so I think it should be ok.
It's been posted - the 2M black that is.
Due on Thursday, so fingers crossed for a wet weekend!
I came home to the 2M Black. :cool:
Too tired to be messing around with it tonight, but I have had news that my arm should be shipping sometime soon. This seems like a sensible time to fit the cartridge, but I think I will stick with cartridges I am more familiar with first.
DarrenHW
02-04-2014, 19:32
I admire your self control, bet you can't wait! Let me know if you want any another mount for the cartridge (I have a few at home) for some A/B comparisons.
Darren,
A kind offer. Thanks.
Depending on how many mounts I get back with my arm, I may be asking for the loan of one.
I could wait no longer.
I thought I had better run the 2M Black in for when my arm gets back. The weather isn't great, so an evening indoors beckons.
What VTF are you guys running on the 2M Black? Around 1.4 to 1.5g and it doesn't sound great. I know it's early days, but I reckon closer to 1.75g will be better.
Fingers crossed - the arm should have shipped today. :)
Hopefully here by the weekend - If I can get to the post office on Friday - which looks doubtful, so I may have to wait another week.
The joys of living in rural France!
RobbieGong
07-04-2014, 16:55
I could wait no longer.
I thought I had better run the 2M Black in for when my arm gets back. The weather isn't great, so an evening indoors beckons.
What VTF are you guys running on the 2M Black? Around 1.4 to 1.5g and it doesn't sound great. I know it's early days, but I reckon closer to 1.75g will be better.
Hi Kevin, I have a lot of experience with this superb cart and run mine at the recommended 1.5g, probably slightly over with no issues. I love mine with a passion. It is very fussy about set up which is well documented due to the profile of it's sophisticated Shibata stylus. One quote from here http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Black-Phono-Cartridge reads; Because its Shibata stylus is sensitive to rake angle, the 2M Black should be used only with tonearms that permit adjustments of VTA and SRA. It is a quality cart and worth good time spent setting up carefully. I actually find the sweet spot through final VTA, adjustment on the fly. Takes a while, steady hand and clean open lugs but once it hits it you just know. It doesnt sound anything special til it's happy in the saddle, but once it is you'll know what all the fuss is about, trust me.
BTW - Check out the customer reviews from the link - All match my own experience !
Thanks Robbie.
When the FX-1200 gets back, VTA on the fly is a doddle. With my three point Rega, it's more involved.
I have adjusted the arm to 1.5g (or a smidge under @ 1.49) and it sounds fine, but I have not adjusted the VTA. Too much work.
It does sound better now that it has a few hours through it.
RobbieGong
07-04-2014, 17:15
Thanks Robbie.
When the FX-1200 gets back, VTA on the fly is a doddle. With my three point Rega, it's more involved.
I have adjusted the arm to 1.5g (or a smidge under @ 1.49) and it sounds fine, but I have not adjusted the VTA. Too much work.
It does sound better now that it has a few hours through it.
You're laughing with on the fly. I actually cannot live without it, hence my upgrade Micro Seiki arm had to have it.
PaulStewart
21-04-2014, 22:58
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You're laughing with on the fly. I actually cannot live without it, hence my upgrade Micro Seiki arm had to have it.
Really? Once set, I never touch it - even though my DV arm can adjust VTA on the fly.
DarrenHW
22-04-2014, 05:44
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Me too, have you had your arm back yet?
No. It's being posted this week (apparently), hopefully with a Strata Platter and a sapphire bearing for me to have a play with. I agreed on a delay, as the bearing wasn't available and it makes sense to post it all out at the same time.
DarrenHW
23-04-2014, 16:20
What's the "sapphire bearing" is it the Applied Fidelity or are Funk making bearings?
It's a Funk Bearing.
The one I am being sent is a pre-production version.
DarrenHW
23-04-2014, 19:03
It's a Funk Bearing.
The one I am being sent is a ore-production version.
Exciting :popcorn:
Well, after a bit of delay, the tracking shows it should be out for delivery tomorrow.
It will probably be Friday before I see it though.
It's stuck at the depot. :(
Gordon Steadman
15-05-2014, 10:14
It's stuck at the depot. :(
Its bizarre init?
I've had stuff arrive from the UK in two days and some seems to take weeks. Luck of the draw I suspect. Who is the carrier? Just got stuff from Germany in three days via UPS.
Delivery arranged for Monday.
Next week is going to be a good one!
DarrenHW
20-05-2014, 16:48
Has the eagle landed????
:eek:
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2908/14044756778_d703fb7ff3_z_d.jpg
:stalks:
Quality! So how does it sound in comparison with the carbon-fibre tube jobby (minus any 'new kit expectation bias')? :eyebrows:
Marco.
If I am honest, I have absolutely no idea. It's been a while.
However, it sounds sublime compared to my RB251 with a superb level of detail.
My full thoughts to follow later.
All I can say for now is....
:stalks:
:thumbsup:
:yay:
I am really enjoying the sound that this arm is helping to produce. There is more separation than my RB251 produced using the same cartridge (SAE 1000LT), with each instrument clearly defined. The leading and trailing edges of notes are well defined. Bass is fast and punchy. The different instruments seem to be unravelled really well. Vocals are clear and crisp. Since fitting the arm tonight, I have not stopped listening to my tunes. It reminds me of how good the FX1200 is on an SL12XX.
I'd still love to do a back to back comparison with the carbon tubed version. I'm just curious to know if I could hear the difference.
In short, I don't regret the upgrade from a relatively unique arm to the latest incarnation.
:partytime:
The Beagle has landed! Very nice pic too! Acoustic memory is said not be be good but I hope you can compare the stock techie arm with the F·X.
DarrenHW
21-05-2014, 06:26
Holy Moly that's a good looking arm :stalks: That would be the perfect match for my PS, nothing says "Hot Rod" like anodised aluminium :hotrod:
12441
What about the platter and bearing?
Wish we could have a mini bake off, why do you have to live in France Kev?!? :) I'd be interested to hear the differences between the 2 and between my AT and your 2M :(.
One thing at a time....
The bearing and platter should be here soon.
Next week I plan to work my way through the cartridges to see which I like the most.
I have an AT95SE, MP150, AT150MLX, SAE 1000LT and the 2M Black.
It should be fun.
As for living in France, I like a summer that lasts more than 3 days of the second week in August.
:lolsign:
DarrenHW
21-05-2014, 07:26
You have the patience of a saint, I thought the whole delay was so that all could be sent together? Enjoy the cartridge shoot out, if that 2M doesn't float your boat let me know, I'd be interested in buying it.
As for living in France, I like a summer that lasts more than 3 days of the second week in August.
:lolsign:
Even 3 days is too long! It's already not getting dark till after 22:00, I've caught the sun and it's too hot, roll on Autumn :) !
I thought so too.
Good things come to those who wait
The bearing was just for fun, as Mike has already provided me one.
The platter should be here soon, but until then I can get reacquainted with my upgraded arm.
Yo daftee,
One thing at a time....The bearing and platter should be here soon.
It'll be interesting finding out your thoughts on those, which I presume are prototypes? Do remember the new rules on reviews, though! ;)
Next week I plan to work my way through the cartridges to see which I like the most.
I have an AT95SE, MP150, AT150MLX, SAE 1000LT and the 2M Black.
All well and good, however at some point you need to hear a decent moving coil on that arm, as that's what it was made for!
As for living in France, I like a summer that lasts more than 3 days of the second week in August.
Lol... Dunno where you used to live in the UK, but here in sunny North Wales (the sun's splitting the sky again today, and we had temperatures the other day in Wrexham up to 22°C!) we regularly have at least six weeks of good weather in the summer, and the winter this year was extremely mild.
So far this week, as it's been so warm, we've had three of our meals outside in the garden patio area, and that will continue with lunch today, so shtick that up yer Camembert! :ner:
;)
Marco.
I have seen the new rules.
I will only be commenting here on the platter, which seems a shame especially if the bearing turns out the be as good as the arm.
I have lived in the north and south. We have been BBQ'ing since March.
My pool is almost as warm as your ambient air temperature.
Lol... You can keep yer pool. They remind me too much of cheap package holiday hotels at Spanish or Greek tourist resorts! ;)
Therefore, even if I lived abroad, I wouldn't have an outdoor pool (or an indoor one for that matter), as neither Del nor I are the 'sitting back bathing, doing nothing' sort... Each to his or her own though, matey :)
You can talk about the bearing too, as long as you do so in the correct context.
Marco.
Cool.
The pool was built for swimming, not playing.
But trust me, when it's 35 degrees plus ambient, it's a fantastic place to be.
No worries, I get that. In the warm weather, I'd rather be sitting under our pergola, in the shade, sipping an ice-cold beer or glass of Chablis! I'm no sun worshipper or water/beach fanatic :nono:
Enjoy it, though!
Marco.
I like a summer that lasts more than 3 days of the second week in August.
That's the bit I don't like ;)
Anyway, back to the arm (and a cold beer).
Spinning on the deck is Ben Howard - Every Kingdom.
Whilst not the most challenging of tests, it's a nice recording. I can hear fine detail that was not there last time. You can hear his fingers travelling up and down the strings as mentioned before, everything is sharp. Bass is tight and deep. Cymbals sound exquisite. It seems as though the SAE 1000LT (with the technics flat headshell weight) suits this arm very well. There seems to be so much time space between instruments that you can pick and choose any instrument you like. As I have said before, it sounds like the arm is not there, and the cartridge is just floating on the vinyl surface. If the arm can do this with a relatively cheap HOMC cartridge, Imthink that a decent MC mounted aboard will be rather special.
It's not a cheap arm by any means, but it is rather special. I thoroughly recommend anybody thinking of a new tonearm to talk to AK at Funk about one of these. I am really impressed with this arm. I think you would have to spend an awful lot more to better it. Something I don't intend to do anytime soon. You'll have to prise this rather special arm out of my cold, dead hands before you get it.
Glad you're enjoying it, Kevin - I don't think at any stage that was ever under any doubt...
Also, as you're discovering for yourself, I've always said that more folk should use Funk arms on the Techy, as in my opinion, they're much more inherently musical sounding devices than the SMEs or Rega arms that often grace them instead, so hopefully your reporting of your experiences here will tempt more Techy fans to go down the Funk arm route! :)
Marco.
I have just fitted my 2M Black :eek:
Wow, what a sound. I thought that the SAE 1000LT was good, but this just takes it up a notch. Detail, bass and tonal balance, it's all there. Sound stage sounding quite expansive with superb separation.
(Yes Marco, I know it's still not a decent MC cartridge :ner:)
Next week I hope to sort out my platter, as a 2nd hand Funk mk1 has become available. Triggers broom is almost complete. ;)
It's been a while since I posted here, so I thought a little update was in order.
I decided to change the cartridge back to the humble AT95E.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7624/16580964498_6b3c8e6ec4_z_d.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7609/16581130410_77fa9b3304_d.jpg
This cartridge has absolutely no right to sound as good as it does! Sure, it's lacking the detail of the other cartridges, but it has such a musical presentation, it just gets down and boogies.
The Shibata stylus looks more tempting now (which is one of the reasons I switched back to the AT95E).
It's been a while since I posted here, so I thought a little update was in order.
I decided to change the cartridge back to the humble AT95E.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7624/16580964498_6b3c8e6ec4_z_d.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7609/16581130410_77fa9b3304_d.jpg
This cartridge has absolutely no right to sound as good as it does! Sure, it's lacking the detail of the other cartridges, but it has such a musical presentation, it just gets down and boogies.
The Shibata stylus looks more tempting now (which is one of the reasons I switched back to the AT95E).
Let me know if you get one and its good. I have a fancy:eyebrows:
As an Update I have just ordered one of the JICO Shibata Stylii for my cart/ s . I have 2, so will give me another string to my bow sort of speak. Temptation got the better of me I'm afraid :doh:
Fortunately I just got a load of shopping in but beans on toast for a while too :eek:
The Barbarian
09-03-2015, 22:43
I have two carts i use most of all the Shure 'M95HE' & Goldring 'G900IGC', both ready for new styli.. I'm not sure if i ought to buy the Jico 'N95HE SAS' or the 'G-900IGC' styli! only about a tenner between em :hmm:
As an Update I have just ordered one of the JICO Shibata Stylii for my cart/ s . I have 2, so will give me another string to my bow sort of speak. Temptation got the better of me I'm afraid :doh:
Fortunately I just got a load of shopping in but beans on toast for a while too :eek:
Let me know how it turns out.
I was wondering who was going to crack first. :D
DarrenHW
10-03-2015, 07:32
It's been a while since I posted here, so I thought a little update was in order.
I decided to change the cartridge back to the humble AT95E.
This cartridge has absolutely no right to sound as good as it does! Sure, it's lacking the detail of the other cartridges, but it has such a musical presentation, it just gets down and boogies.
The Shibata stylus looks more tempting now (which is one of the reasons I switched back to the AT95E).
Hi Kev, how's it going? By pure coincidence I picked one of these up the other day but have yet to install it. Do you find it more musical than the 2M Black?
I have two carts i use most of all the Shure 'M95HE' & Goldring 'G900IGC', both ready for new styli.. I'm not sure if i ought to buy the Jico 'N95HE SAS' or the 'G-900IGC' styli! only about a tenner between em :hmm:
If you go for the Shure I'd be interested in your findings, eventually got my Hadcock hooked up yesterday. Massive improvement (with the M95HE) over the RB300, more detailed, more natural, more texture to bass, reduced rumble. Very happy, more like the presentation I had with the FX.1200 but with the drive of the Garrard, I see Hadcock mod's in my future.
The 2M Black is more detailed, but I would say it's a little bit clinical in comparison.
I miss the detail of the 2M.
To be perfect fly honest, I was using the SAE1000LT recently. I was saving the 2M Black for when I had bought my RCM. I was tempted by the Shibata for the AT95E. I just wanted to see if I could live with the character of the AT95. The answer is yes.
DarrenHW
10-03-2015, 08:07
I know what you're saying, I miss the detail of the AT440MLa but think it sounds synthetic compared to the M95HE, maybe SAS is the answer? My concern is how it will change the character of the cart?
It should give it more detail, but as the generator is the same, the underlying audio "signature" should not change much. Well, I hope not anyway!
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