View Full Version : The PS Audio Regenerator Thread
Martins enthusiasm for regeneration certain awoke my interest. I looked into the PS Audio kit new and secondhand. Sorry Martin be glad you can afford it but I could not bring myself to spend PS money worth it or not. I took a punt on the AG1500 handling the same load as a P10 but without the frilly shirts, just power out, pleasant surprise it enhanced the SQ.
I'm not much interested in comparing a P10 with an AG1500 cos I am not going to do anything about it if there is a significant difference. I cannot imagine a P10 giving 10* improvement of SQ over an AG1500. It is the use of regenerated power that brings the improvement, not so much the shape of the wave and other features the P10 offers.
Hi Alan, I am first and foremost an advocate of power regeneration. I'm glad that you've found 'regeneration nirvana' and for relatively little money. It's great that there are inexpensive alternatives out there and that PS Audio have some competition.
As with all things, there is a law of diminishing returns at work. The P10 could not be expected to be "10*improvement" over the AG1500, it never works out like that.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
07-03-2013, 08:43
Much as I totally respect Martin's opinions on Hifi and I'm the sort of bloke who firmly believes you generally get what you pay for. That said I can't get my head around spending £5k on a regenerator. The AG1500 for £600 might not give me the result hoping for but I can sell it on with little financial loss if I need to.
On the other hand if the AG1500 does the trick I will no doubt be looking at something better. So it goes.
MikeMusic
07-03-2013, 09:56
Much as I totally respect Martin's opinions on Hifi and I'm the sort of bloke who firmly believes you generally get what you pay for. That said I can't get my head around spending £5k on a regenerator. The AG1500 for £600 might not give me the result hoping for but I can sell it on with little financial loss if I need to.
On the other hand if the AG1500 does the trick I will no doubt be looking at something better. So it goes.
How about this for a comparison
I started CD quite late with a NAD I was given. It was ok, impressive almost as I didn't expect much.
Later I was also given an Arcam Alpha, way better than the NAD
Then I started thinking and listening and got a Naim CDX, around £1000, so £1000 more than either of the others.
Was it worth it ? yes I think so
Picked up a CDX2 for a low price, better than the CDX
Then I got the Rega Isis, a £6000 CD player, for around £2600
Massive improvement in sound quality
Back to mains
PPP - fabulous
P10 - even more fabulous
What would I lose if I had to sell this kit ?
Not much
Would I sell it ? No
Ooh exception. I would sell my P10 for £5k as long as I had another lined up for the price they really sell for
isuckedmandelsonslemons
07-03-2013, 10:41
I follow all of that. Do what price do they REALLY sell for? You've been pretty vague up to now.
MikeMusic
07-03-2013, 10:51
I follow all of that. Do what price do they REALLY sell for? You've been pretty vague up to now.
I assume you could get one for £4000 or around
Is it VFM ?
I say so
How does it compare with the much lower priced stuff ?
No one has compared. Logic says it will be better. PS Audio cannot sell the stuff otherwise
If you change all of your other kit the P10 - or P5 can stay
It improves sound from vinyl or CD or any other inputs
realysm42
10-03-2013, 10:14
Harry, did you get my email?
isuckedmandelsonslemons
10-03-2013, 11:55
Yep. Sent reply Martin.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
12-03-2013, 19:58
.
WTF does that mean?
The Grand Wazoo
12-03-2013, 20:02
He got the point.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
12-03-2013, 21:07
Sorry fellas but you've lost me. I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere. Care to share it with me?
Look carefully at David's post.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
13-03-2013, 06:53
Yes, I looked very closely and all I can see is a full stop.
I even took the trouble of looking on my iPad (I was using my iPhone) and could only see .
I'm genuinely confused and interested. 99.9% of David's post are him plugging something he sells, promoting his business generally or shilling for a sale. This is obviously worth seeing.
Perhaps it's because I'm using Tapatalk?
Harry, you have a PM. Could you reply to it ASAP, please. Cheers! :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
13-03-2013, 09:27
:peace:
Yes, I looked very closely and all I can see is a full stop.
I even took the trouble of looking on my iPad (I was using my iPhone) and could only see .
I'm genuinely confused and interested. 99.9% of David's post are him plugging something he sells, promoting his business generally or shilling for a sale. This is obviously worth seeing.
Perhaps it's because I'm using Tapatalk?
:peace:
99.9% of David's post are him plugging something he sells, promoting his business generally...
I'm sorry to say it, but I think that's a fair point, and something I've been noticing for a while.
David, remember we had that chat where I asked you to give more of YOU to AoS, rather than just promoting your business, so that people would see you as more of an audio enthusiast, and less of a salesman, and that this more relaxed approach would likely gain you more customers in the long run?
Well, mate, it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, as if you look at the stats, Harry is quite right. These days, you mostly live in the trade section, which gives the impression that the only reason you are here is to sell stuff :(
Any chance we could see more of you outside of the trade room, involved in other discussions? You used to be like that when you first joined! ;)
Marco.
I'm sorry to say it, but I think that's a fair point, and something I've been noticing for a while.
David, remember we had that chat where I asked you to give more of YOU to AoS, rather than just promoting your business, so that people would see you as more of an audio enthusiast, and less of a salesman, and that this more relaxed approach would likely gain you more customers in the long run?
Well, mate, it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, as if you look at the stats, Harry is quite right. These days, you mostly live in the trade section, which gives the impression that the only reason you are here is to sell stuff :(
Any chance we could see more of you outside of the trade room, involved in other discussions? You used to be like that when you first joined! ;)
Marco.
fair point indeed, the reality is guys I am 10 times busier than last year, I don't have time to post as often as I would like, and forgive me if I don't find some posts and threads interesting enough to get involved in
of course some of you will always concentrate on the negative with no mention of my freebies thread which I started ages ago and hoped other dealers would join me in giving away surplus bits and pieces but alas just me
the most precious resource in the world is not gold or platinum or anything like that, it is "time"
There are not enough hours in the day for me, sorry if some of you feel I am over-promoting myself, that's a bit harsh as I don't visit 1/2 as much as I used to.
Look in the trade threads currently, I don't see more than 2 of my ads out of the 20 on the first page??????
the only reason I have replied to this is marco e-mailing me to respond
now I have to go and prepare for next weekends hifi show, see ya :)
Hi David,
the only reason I have replied to this is marco e-mailing me to respond...
Well, regardless of me emailing you or not, one would've thought that the natural reaction, out of politeness, would've been to reply to someone asking you a question. The only reason I mailed you, was to ensure that you'd seen the post, as I know how busy you are! ;)
the reality is guys I am 10 times busier than last year...
That's good. Long may it continue :)
...of course some of you will always concentrate on the negative with no mention of my freebies thread which I started ages ago and hoped other dealers would join me in giving away surplus bits and pieces but alas just me
With respect, David, whilst your freebies are appreciated, it doesn't grant you any special favours here over our trade members who, for whatever reason, haven't joined in with your generous offer. I always feel it's best, when giving something away for free, to do it purely out of the goodness of one's heart, without expecting any recognition.
the most precious resource in the world is not gold or platinum or anything like that, it is "time"
I completely agree. However, could you do me a favour?
On the next occasion when you have time to post here, could it be for some reason other than to promote your business, either directly or indirectly? For example, helping someone with a query about cables, which doesn't in some way involve recommending a product you sell?
That way, those accusing you of over-selling yourself will see another side to you, and then hopefully you won't be accused of that again.
...sorry if some of you feel I am over-promoting myself, that's a bit harsh as I don't visit 1/2 as much as I used to.
Look in the trade threads currently, I don't see more than 2 of my ads out of the 20 on the first page??????
Yes, but if you view all of your posts over, say, the last few months, you'll see that 90% of them, if not directly a sales thread in the trade room, is you joining in discussions with the intention of promoting products you sell. Sometimes this is done more subtly than others, but the intention is always there.
Now, I know you're in business to sell your products, which is only natural, but other trade members here are, shall we say, a little less 'obvious' about it. This is not meant as an attack on you, but simply me pointing out what is happening, whether you realise it or not.
It's up to you what you decide to do about it, or indeed whether you care about people's perception of you in that respect. I'm only here to try and help.
now I have to go and prepare for next weekends hifi show, see ya
No worries. I might see you there and buy you a beer! :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
13-03-2013, 14:19
I'm not going to get involved in the discussion about what David (MCRU ) does or doesn't do when he posts on AOS . However , I went to the Bristol show with Gazjam a couple of weeks ago and had the pleasure of meeting David and in my estimation he is a real gentleman . He asked me if I would be interested in helping out by handing out bags with brochures and free gifts in them , which I agreed to do . Now I know what was going into those bags ,as I was filling them ,and David gave away as free gifts a not insubstantial amount of goods .
Seems to me to be one of the few guys in this industry who gives something back . I don't remember being given anything for free until I joined this forum and IMHO David , among others here ,is an asset to AOS.
OK he's a businessman , but he's certainly one of the better ones that I've come across.
Absolutely, Brian. There's no doubt that David runs his business very professionally and that he's also a nice guy to deal with. However, I'm just asking him to reign in the salesmanship a bit. As a salesman myself, I can see it a mile off, including the 'inventive marketing' ;)
I've had a chat to David before about this matter, so the subject is not new. I'm mentioning it again in the hope that he'll take the comments on board, as the advice is given with the best of intentions.
Everyone should be able to accept some constructive criticism sometimes, so I'm sure that David will take his in the right spirit :)
Marco.
Incidentally, those looking for the discussion about banners and self-promotion, in relation to trade members, can now find it here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=423960#post423960
Cheers! :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
03-04-2013, 16:52
I just ordered a p10...... Well to demo at least ;) should be here in two to three weeks. :eek:
isuckedmandelsonslemons
03-04-2013, 16:53
I bought a regenerator last week. I'm so impressed I'm buying another. I'm gobsmacked with it. Cheap as chips almost.
MikeMusic
03-04-2013, 17:03
I just ordered a p10...... Well to demo at least ;) should be here in two to three weeks. :eek:
Be prepared to be surprised.
It is a major building block to the top end system
isuckedmandelsonslemons
03-04-2013, 17:05
Be prepared to be surprised.
It is a major building block to the top end system
Good with any decent system I'd think.
Nice one, Andy. Dare I say you won't be sending it back? Let us know your findings.
sheridd2
03-04-2013, 19:15
Had my P10 now for a few days.
The biggest improvement for me was the cleaning of the mains, it removed several layers of grunge I didn't know I had. I could 'see' further into the mix, more detail coming through. Vocals really clear now too.
A slight, but welcome increase in treble, but not harsh or grating.
Still a long way to go with burn in.
I've already added the Hi Fi Supreme fuse but currently using it the correct way, with the arrow going into the P10. Others on the forum seem to be using it the opposite way.
I'm coming from a Qbase extension block and the P10 is a big improvement.
I'm currently using a Valhalla power cord to drive the P10 but others here have used the MCRU Ultimate power cord to good effect. I'm debating trying this option.
With my pre-amp and Cd player, both Chord, I was using Kimber Palladian power cords. I tried a Valhalla and Valhalla clone power cord driving these but didn't like the result. The mid range was not as good and the treble was dull and the sound was a little harsh, not inviting at all. Re-instating my Kimber cords brought back the nice open mid range and feathery treble.
I'm currently waiting on a 16 amp iec to convert my Chord amp to using my last Kimber power cord, from the Valhalla clone I'm using on it. Hoping for an extension of the 'Kimber' sound I'm enjoying via my pre and cd player.
More posts as the P10 burns in.
PS ..... I'm hoping my P10 is very reliable as it is now driving my hi fi.
One other aspect not mentioned. When driving my hi fi the load on the P10 is only around 12%. I also have a home cinema system as part my hi fi and with the pre-amp in av bypass mode and an additional chord amp for the other 5 channels, (7.1) system the load on the P10 is around 48%.
My sub is not powered by the P10 as I don't have a power cord long enough to accommodate it ..... yet.
Wakefield Turntables
03-04-2013, 19:25
I bought a regenerator last week. I'm so impressed I'm buying another. I'm gobsmacked with it. Cheap as chips almost.
Glad that this has helped. Perhaps you may go and get a P10.
Be prepared to be surprised.
It is a major building block to the top end system
That would be nice!
Good with any decent system I'd think.
Well I hope so, my system is perhaps not as expensive as some on the forum but it certainly, lets say, had some money spent on it!
Nice one, Andy. Dare I say you won't be sending it back? Let us know your findings.
Hope not mate! Lets see if Kevin can convert another 1210'er into buying one from him. I've also get a Whest 3.0 rdt SE winging its way over here soon as well :eek:
Had my P10 now for a few days.
The biggest improvement for me was the cleaning of the mains, it removed several layers of grunge I didn't know I had. I could 'see' further into the mix, more detail coming through. Vocals really clear now too.
A slight, but welcome increase in treble, but not harsh or grating.
Still a long way to go with burn in.
I've already added the Hi Fi Supreme fuse but currently using it the correct way, with the arrow going into the P10. Others on the forum seem to be using it the opposite way.
I'm coming from a Qbase extension block and the P10 is a big improvement.
I'm currently using a Valhalla power cord to drive the P10 but others here have used the MCRU Ultimate power cord to good effect. I'm debating trying this option.
With my pre-amp and Cd player, both Chord, I was using Kimber Palladian power cords. I tried a Valhalla and Valhalla clone power cord driving these but didn't like the result. The mid range was not as good and the treble was dull and the sound was a little harsh, not inviting at all. Re-instating my Kimber cords brought back the nice open mid range and feathery treble.
I'm currently waiting on a 16 amp iec to convert my Chord amp to using my last Kimber power cord, from the Valhalla clone I'm using on it. Hoping for an extension of the 'Kimber' sound I'm enjoying via my pre and cd player.
More posts as the P10 burns in.
PS ..... I'm hoping my P10 is very reliable as it is now driving my hi fi.
One other aspect not mentioned. When driving my hi fi the load on the P10 is only around 12%. I also have a home cinema system as part my hi fi and with the pre-amp in av bypass mode and an additional chord amp for the other 5 channels, (7.1) system the load on the P10 is around 48%.
My sub is not powered by the P10 as I don't have a power cord long enough to accommodate it ..... yet.
Dude! Thats sure is a detailed write up. Here's my 2 cents. I honestly think that it makes no difference whatsoever which way you put your fuse in. BUT, if you feel its improved your system then thats all good. No with regards the power chord. I use my own. I use 4mm diameter pure silver conductors. They are have teflon dialetic, have a cotton dampening layer and are tripple shielded. I use a IegO pure silver plug end. They work extremely well are better than ANYTHING that I have tried before. Glad to hear your observations with the power chords and will write back if I find anything similar. :cool:
I've also get a Whest 3.0 rdt SE winging its way over here soon as well :eek:
Blimey, you don't do things by halves, Andy!
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 04:56
I'm waiting for someone to compare the Power Inspired AG1500 against a P10. Having spent a modest £500 on the AG1500 I'm truly astounded at what it's done to my system so far. ATM I've only got the CD transport and DAC connected and magical stuff has happened.
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2013, 07:48
Blimey, you don't do things by halves, Andy!
:lol:
I'm waiting for someone to compare the Power Inspired AG1500 against a P10. Having spent a modest £500 on the AG1500 I'm truly astounded at what it's done to my system so far. ATM I've only got the CD transport and DAC connected and magical stuff has happened.
Mate if I had one to compare when I get the p10 I would :D
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 07:50
Where are you Andrew?
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 08:00
He's on Earth :lol:
Cheers.
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 08:01
He's on Earth :lol:
Well grounded
:)
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 08:02
Well grounded
:)
Thanks. That's also helpful.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 08:07
See, the reason I asked is that if it was close to me, I'd have been happy to drive over with the AG1500 so we could compare.
Just a little morning humour, Harry :)
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 08:18
Just a little morning humour, Harry :)
Right.
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 08:22
See, the reason I asked is that if it was close to me, I'd have been happy to drive over with the AG1500 so we could compare.
We'd be dead interereted too
Think he's oop North with you but not sure where
I'm waiting for someone to compare the Power Inspired AG1500 against a P10. Having spent a modest £500 on the AG1500 I'm truly astounded at what it's done to my system so far. ATM I've only got the CD transport and DAC connected and magical stuff has happened.
I think janl100? has compared the AG1500 and a PS Audio PPP finding in favour of the AG1500.
Discussion on a Wigwam thread explored regeneration and comment was made the PS Audio stuff isn't true regeneration these days whereas AG1500 is.
Glad you found instant benefit as I did - if only I could coerce mains cables to make a difference as the AG1500 did
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 08:28
Alan, the difference is massive. I went into it with an open mind and really was shocked at what the AG1500 did. I've had good results with various mains cables as well but differences have been very subtle.
Alan, the difference is massive. I went into it with an open mind and really was shocked at what the AG1500 did. I've had good results with various mains cables as well but differences have been very subtle.
I think your kit/possibly yourself is more sensitive than mine/me. At least I save money by not chasing mains cable heaven.
I think janl100? has compared the AG1500 and a PS Audio PPP finding in favour of the AG1500.
The PPP is in no way comparable with the P10, sound quality wise. Mike has also upgraded from a PPP and will tell you similarly.
PS Audio stuff isn't true regeneration these days whereas AG1500 is.
Cobblers. The P10 is enormously efficient because it takes a delta between the incoming waveform and a true sinewave (or multiwave) generated internally, and then applies correction via a floating amplifier. This allows it to attain its high 1500W capability while not creating the monstrous heat of older generations. The outgoing waveform is corrected to be near-perfect under a varying load. Whether you wish to apply the word 'regeneration' is simply a matter of semantics.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 09:05
Worth adding that the Power Inspired AG1500 is also 1500 watts. In good time I'll be seeing what it does with my four mono amps. Should be interesting.
Worth adding that the Power Inspired AG1500 is also 1500 watts.
Unless it's absolutely massive with heatsinks and fans everywhere, it will be using a variation on PS Audio's waveform correction scheme, rather than generating the output fully from DC. If it's a Class B amplifier its output distortion will be orders of magnitude higher.
Discussion on a Wigwam thread explored regeneration and comment was made the PS Audio stuff isn't true regeneration these days whereas AG1500 is.
Ah, the 'cognoscenti' have spoken... That'll be the subject done and dusted, then!!
Marco.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 09:16
It's pretty big and it had two fans. I'm not technically competent enough to discuss how it works but it certainly ranks as the best £500 I've ever spent on my system.
Ah, the 'cognoscenti' have spoken... That'll be the subject done and dusted, then!!
Marco.
Wam members got the AG1500 introduced under a special price deal a while back as I am sure you know so there is a fair body of experience of the AG1500 there. Certainly more experienced than AoS where AG1500 is rare (and not understood it seems), being a PS Audio fan base.
No implication the subject is done and dusted, just another point of view. As for cognoscenti demeaning comments can end up being used both ways, I try to avoid them therefore.
My criteria is the benefit to SQ and I doubt a PS Audio box at 5-10 times the cost makes 5 times the improvment in SQ, it may appeal to members for other reasons.
It's pretty big and it had two fans. I'm not technically competent enough to discuss how it works but it certainly ranks as the best £500 I've ever spent on my system.
It is basically a computer UPS and comes with software and cables to make it work that purpose (orderly close down on mains failing). As it does when a battery pack is attached. It therefore creates an AC wave of fixed voltage from a DC source.
The benefits to audio are those of a stable voltage, consistent wave form (free from spikes and other mains crap). I cannot imagine much more that can be provided by PS Audio stuff.
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 09:46
Mike has also upgraded from a PPP and will tell you similarly.
100%
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 09:46
I always go into buying decisions with an open mind. I read a lot of stuff on Wigwam and HiFi Subjectivist (or whatever it's called) and there seemed very little negative to say about the Power Inspired units. At £500 it was a no brainer.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 09:47
It is basically a computer UPS and comes with software and cables to make it work that purpose (orderly close down on mains failing). As it does when a battery pack is attached. It therefore creates an AC wave of fixed voltage from a DC source.
The benefits to audio are those of a stable voltage, consistent wave form (free from spikes and other mains crap). I cannot imagine much more that can be provided by PS Audio stuff.
Thanks. I understand that.
Thanks. I understand that.
Good. When it is on you will see an Orange light flashing indicating a battery isn't connected. That isn't a problem
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2013, 09:57
Where are you Andrew?
PM sent.
Ah, the 'cognoscenti' have spoken... That'll be the subject done and dusted, then!!
Marco.
:lol: I'm still open minded, let's see what happens.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 10:00
Good. When it is on you will see an Orange light flashing indicating a battery isn't connected. That isn't a problem
Alan, they've changed that by hey realised majority of people wouldn't be using it with battery. Couple of other changes as well.
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 10:03
PM sent.
I'm still open minded, let's see what happens.
Me too
Let us know when you have done testing.
Not really telling gran how to suck eggs.....
Have both of them on for a while warming up
I would like to clarify that I'm not dismissing the AG1500 in any way. I simply don't know it and would be very interested in a comparison with the P10. Anything that brings the price of regeneration down to a lower entry point is A GOOD THING in my book. I think many systems can benefit from the introduction of clean power.
I only took umbrage at the notion that the P10 is not a regenerator, which sounds like someone looked at the design brief and only took half of it in.
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2013, 12:10
Just had a thought and this is based to the owners of the P10. What made you decided to try / buy one? For me it was all the uncertainty of exactly what power level/quality was going into my system. Some nights the system would sound under par other (most) nights it sounds bloody brilliant. I just don't like the idea of that. I would prefer my system to be performing brilliantly all the time, I have, after all spent quite a bit on it :eyebrows: So, for me, if I can control this one variable I will be a lot happier with the setup of my system. Petty yes, but for me important.
I have been following this thread with much interest - especially as the AG1500 is much more in my price range than the P10. I use a fully balanced mains to the hifi(only) and so emailed UPSRUS to see if there would be any issues. Got a very rapid reply:
"It is safe, but unfortunately it may periodically alarm as it may detect a reversed live/neutral. The AG1500 has had this alarm removed, which is considered by many to be superior for power amps."
While this seems encouraging I'm not totally sure they are saying my balanced mains will be 100% fine with the AG1500 even if the alarm is removed.
Does anyone have any more specific info on balanced mains and regenerators - and of course whether if I already have balanced mains a regenerator would produce an increase in SQ.
Steve
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2013, 12:13
Stephen,
I think if memory serves there is quite a detailed thread on this subject somewhere in the archives, i could be mistaken but it might be worth a search.
Andy
Stephen,
I think if memory serves there is quite a detailed thread on this subject somewhere in the archives, i could be mistaken but it might be worth a search.
Andy
Ah Ha! Thanks Andy - will do some digging.
Steve
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 12:24
Just had a thought and this is based to the owners of the P10. What made you decided to try / buy one? For me it was all the uncertainty of exactly what power level/quality was going into my system.
I was stunned when I listened to Martin's system a couple of years back.
My system was nowhere near his SQ.
I looked at what he had done and his reviews of various kit.
Knowing him to be even more anal than me and more thorough I trust his opinion.
One Saturday at work I realised I had improved my system but it was still nowhere near his. I don't have the time to research so I decided to move on various fronts. The P10 was one
Since installing the P10, Whest .30r, bringing on Technics upgrades and already having the Rega Isis I can know confidently say I am in the same league of SQ as Martin, possibly at the bottom fighting relegation
:)
but massive improvement. I have that 'naked' sound I was after
So much of that is down to the P10
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 12:27
I have been following this thread with much interest - especially as the AG1500 is much more in my price range than the P10.
As you are also oop North I'd get along to that shoot out even if it were some distance away
Just had a thought and this is based to the owners of the P10. What made you decided to try / buy one?
It was an upgrade process for me:
P300 -> PPP -> P10
Over the course of about 11 years.
Each one told me that power regeneration works and that it enhances components by far more than the cost of adding it to the system. Each one was progressively better; higher cost, but greater gains.
I may never have jumped straight to a P10, but the progression taught me that I was virtually assured of success.
MikeMusic
04-04-2013, 12:32
It was an upgrade process for me:
P300 -> PPP -> P10
Over the course of about 11 years.
Each one told me that power regeneration works and that it enhances components by far more than the cost of adding it to the system. Each one was progressively better; higher cost, but greater gains.
I may never have jumped straight to a P10, but the progression taught me that I was virtually assured of success.
What he says
:)
I was stunned when I listened to Martin's system a couple of years back.
My system was nowhere near his SQ.
I looked at what he had done and his reviews of various kit.
Knowing him to be even more anal than me and more thorough I trust his opinion.
One Saturday at work I realised I had improved my system but it was still nowhere near his. I don't have the time to research so I decided to move on various fronts. The P10 was one
Since installing the P10, Whest .30r, bringing on Technics upgrades and already having the Rega Isis I can know confidently say I am in the same league of SQ as Martin, possibly at the bottom fighting relegation
:)
but massive improvement. I have that 'naked' sound I was after
So much of that is down to the P10
you forgot to mention the snake that connects the P10 to the mains ? :lol:
Duly noted, David. It's undeniably true that, good as the P10's performance is when supplying the entire system, it sounds even better when connected with a serious boa constrictor of a main feed cable - in my case a Furukawa 2.6 (even more unwieldy than the next size down, an MCRU Ultimate).
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2013, 19:43
Martin,
How many core conductors does your Furukawa 2.6 have, would I be right in saying that it had 2 + the standard earthing conductor?
Andy
As I remember it, there are three 2.6mm solid core conductors. It's an absolute bastard inside the Furutech plug, I had a terrible job replacing the fuse and putting it all back together again!
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2013, 20:26
Thanks for that. I have some IeGo connectors and intend to use solid 3 or 4mm high purity silver with copious RFI/EMI shielding for my "Reference" lead going into the P10. All the bits are on order. :eyebrows:
I'm waiting for someone to compare the Power Inspired AG1500 against a P10.
+1
Hope this isn't going too off topic...
I've got balanced mains (5kva Airlink transformer) on a spur and a PF30 which gave very worthwhile results. Now wondering what else can be done. A P10 is a bit rich whereas an AG1500 is much more affordable.
Any idea if either of these can be plugged into balanced mains supply?
Chris
MikeMusic
05-04-2013, 07:17
you forgot to mention the snake that connects the P10 to the mains ? :lol:
Yes. Ultimates are part and parcel of the whole sound and system too
I've only been aware of mains cables making any difference for about 7 years.
Before that I thought it was going to be marginal at best, possibly imagined.
As for a mains regenerator, for a hifi system !?! - complete madness surely ?
No a brilliant piece of kit that releases the system to allow it to sing
MikeMusic
05-04-2013, 07:18
Thanks for that. I have some IeGo connectors and intend to use solid 3 or 4mm high purity silver with copious RFI/EMI shielding for my "Reference" lead going into the P10. All the bits are on order. :eyebrows:
The very best mains cable into the regenerator gives the best results
+1
Hope this isn't going too off topic...
I've got balanced mains (5kva Airlink transformer) on a spur and a PF30 which gave very worthwhile results. Now wondering what else can be done. A P10 is a bit rich whereas an AG1500 is much more affordable.
Any idea if either of these can be plugged into balanced mains supply?
Chris
Hi Chris - see my post #313 above as I have the same question.
The supplier has offered me a 7-day trial and if it does not work with my balanced mains I can return for a full refund.
Steve
Hi Chris - see my post #313 above as I have the same question.
The supplier has offered me a 7-day trial and if it does not work with my balanced mains I can return for a full refund.
Thanks Steve. Somehow missed your post :doh: :o
"It is safe, but unfortunately it may periodically alarm as it may detect a reversed live/neutral. The AG1500 has had this alarm removed, which is considered by many to be superior for power amps."
Not sure this answers enough questions. Does it keep the balanced mains +115/-115 or does it return it to 230/0? AFAIK you cannot mix and match your components across the two :scratch: I was actually thinking of trying my power amp first, leaving the PF30 to stop my other components dropping rubbish back onto the mains. Shame Mark (Reid M) isn't posting these days - he would no doubt have helped out.
Chris
Not sure this answers enough questions. Does it keep the balanced mains +115/-115 or does it return it to 230/0? AFAIK you cannot mix and match your components across the two :scratch:
:exactly:
This is my concern and I'm not sure. I may take them up on the offer and try it - I can then test the output and see if it's still balanced - and of course if I can perceive an increase in SQ.
Might have to wait a while as am about to send my poweramp valves off to be cryo'd
Steve
+1
Hope this isn't going too off topic...
I've got balanced mains (5kva Airlink transformer) on a spur and a PF30 which gave very worthwhile results. Now wondering what else can be done. A P10 is a bit rich whereas an AG1500 is much more affordable.
Any idea if either of these can be plugged into balanced mains supply?
Chris
Isn't it a question of one approach or the other? If using a balanced mains that is the control/improvement if using an AG1500 then that is the means to modify/improve the mains. I am not highly qualified in electrics but I don't think you can add more and more things that in their own right modify the mains and gain a cumulative benefit. I think you will find its one or the other.
Have you had cronic mains problems leading you to this urge to add solutions?
Isn't it a question of one approach or the other? If using a balanced mains that is the control/improvement if using an AG1500 then that is the means to modify/improve the mains. I am not highly qualified in electrics but I don't think you can add more and more things that in their own right modify the mains and gain a cumulative benefit. I think you will find its one or the other.
Have you had cronic mains problems leading you to this urge to add solutions?
Thanks Alan. I wondered the same myself, but here's my thinking.
I have a dedicated spur with the Airlink transformer on the end feeding sockets and an earth rod in the garden, all professionally installed at the same time as a new CU. When I added the PF30, I only plugged the low power components into it (i.e. not my power amp) and this really lifted the SQ, more so IIRC than when adding balanced power. My personal reasoning for this was that it isolated the DAC which is the only component with a SMPS.
So, good as it sounds now, SQ does vary and I believe that the telly/AV system is an important culprit - when its on things sound a bit flat, less involving.
What to do? Well balanced power does not cure all problems from what I've read and my experience suggests so. So I could add something else like regeneration, which looks a more holistic approach. Rather than rip out the existing balanced kit (not so easy), simply adding to it would be preferable and also means I can simply revert back if I don't like the results of any further changes.
Chris
MikeMusic
06-04-2013, 10:11
So, good as it sounds now, SQ does vary and I believe that the telly/AV system is an important culprit - when its on things sound a bit flat, less involving.
Both Marco and Martin T recommended I remove my "noisy AV stuff" away from the sound system.
It was too long winded to compare but now the Freeview box, Tivo, DVD are on the left hand side of the TV. The hifi stacks are on the right
AV is plugged into the wall, same circuit as the hifi but that has the P10 giving at least some protection form the AV.
Try all the AV on for a compare then turn it all on and see what happens.
If you can move it away physically, electrically or both I assume that is a 'good thing'
Just thought I could do that as well.
Will have a bash tomorrow........
Both Marco and Martin T recommended I remove my "noisy AV stuff" away from the sound system.
It was too long winded to compare but now the Freeview box, Tivo, DVD are on the left hand side of the TV. The hifi stacks are on the right
AV is plugged into the wall, same circuit as the hifi but that has the P10 giving at least some protection form the AV.
Try all the AV on for a compare then turn it all on and see what happens.
If you can move it away physically, electrically or both I assume that is a 'good thing'
Just thought I could do that as well.
Will have a bash tomorrow........
Thanks Mike. Its actually in a separate room on a different ring circuit, but it includes a Samsung plasma tv, BT vision, Linn Classik and occassionally some other bits when they're switched on.
Chris
MikeMusic
06-04-2013, 12:12
Thanks Mike. Its actually in a separate room on a different ring circuit, but it includes a Samsung plasma tv, BT vision, Linn Classik and occassionally some other bits when they're switched on.
Chris
Would have thought you'd be ok with that
Would have thought you'd be ok with that
Would have hoped so. There's always so many factors at play but that's my best guess. Total isolation is what I needs:lol:
MikeMusic
06-04-2013, 15:35
Would have hoped so. There's always so many factors at play but that's my best guess. Total isolation is what I needs:lol:
You never know, especially if you mix in a computer somewhere !
Yes total isolation, peace and loud music
:)
Thanks Alan. I wondered the same myself, but here's my thinking.
I have a dedicated spur with the Airlink transformer on the end feeding sockets and an earth rod in the garden, all professionally installed at the same time as a new CU. When I added the PF30, I only plugged the low power components into it (i.e. not my power amp) and this really lifted the SQ, more so IIRC than when adding balanced power. My personal reasoning for this was that it isolated the DAC which is the only component with a SMPS.
So, good as it sounds now, SQ does vary and I believe that the telly/AV system is an important culprit - when its on things sound a bit flat, less involving.
What to do? Well balanced power does not cure all problems from what I've read and my experience suggests so. So I could add something else like regeneration, which looks a more holistic approach. Rather than rip out the existing balanced kit (not so easy), simply adding to it would be preferable and also means I can simply revert back if I don't like the results of any further changes.
Chris
Hope it works out.
A
I have read this thread with great interest, MartinT ' description of an overall system upgrade sounds very impressive and just what I am after:)
but I am a bit stupid sometimes and either did not read or instantly forgot any info on just what can be run from a P10 (power consumption wise).How do I work out the power needs of my gear ? and how close to the limit can you safely run a P10? Also they are good to valve amps yes:)
thanks for any info
Hi Paul
The answer to your question is that they vary. The P10 can handle about 1500W, P5 is about 1250W and the P3 about 750W.
The P10 would be good for powering your entire system provided you don't use a giant class A power amp or very large valve amps. Saying that, even my previous PPP handled a 60Wpc valve power amp with ease. One of the five zones on a P10 has inrush current protection (slow ramp up) so is the one to use with power amps.
I power my whole audio system from the P10 and it idles at about 110W. When I'm really playing loud it peaks at about 300W, so there is plenty of headroom to spare.
To calculate your system needs, try to add the power consumption figure in Watts for each item of equipment. For a power amp, the only component which normally draws a variable amount, look at the idle power and maximum power draw. If you don't know the latter, look at the output power for both channels combined and double it. This gives a very rough calculation based on 50% efficiency (not applicable for class A amps, which idle at the highest consumption and drop power draw as output builds).
If you're still confused, list your equipment here and I'm sure we can all dig around for the correct values for you.
Wakefield Turntables
09-04-2013, 19:34
you can always speak to Kevin who's the guy that supplies the P10, he'd be able to help.
PS I had a quick look over on hifi subjectivist, looks like this thread is being slagged off so this is what I think to that :booty:
sheridd2
09-04-2013, 20:56
As I remember it, there are three 2.6mm solid core conductors. It's an absolute bastard inside the Furutech plug, I had a terrible job replacing the fuse and putting it all back together again!
Martin .... looking to get the best out of my P10. Could you describe your Furukawa 2.6 in a bit more detail please, what connectors you used and which fuse?
Furukawa 2.6 cable (available from MCRU or Mark Grant); Furutech Rhodium UK plug; Furutech IEC connector; Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuse.
MikeMusic
10-04-2013, 06:52
Martin .... looking to get the best out of my P10. Could you describe your Furukawa 2.6 in a bit more detail please, what connectors you used and which fuse?
If I may jump in
I find the 2.6 is only slightly better than the Ultimate.
The thing to look out for is that the 2.6 is damned stiff
I find the 2.6 is only slightly better than the Ultimate.
Which, for the sake of explanation, also uses Furukawa cable (2.1, I think).
MikeMusic
10-04-2013, 07:11
Which, for the sake of explanation, also uses Furukawa cable (2.1, I think).
and that is stiff enough
The extra .5 adds more stiffness to the cable than I would have thought
sheridd2
10-04-2013, 12:14
Furukawa 2.6 cable (available from MCRU or Mark Grant); Furutech Rhodium UK plug; Furutech IEC connector; Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuse.
Martin ... a bit more info please? What fuse rating did you use, 13 or 3 amps,(as the P10 uses)? Just how stiff is the cable? I would need to make a 'S' shape to go from the wall socket to the P10, would this be ok?
You also mentioned it was very difficult to change the fuse in the plug, again because the cable is so stiff and difficult to work with?
Martin ... a bit more info please? What fuse rating did you use, 13 or 3 amps,(as the P10 uses)? Just how stiff is the cable? I would need to make a 'S' shape to go from the wall socket to the P10, would this be ok?
You also mentioned it was very difficult to change the fuse in the plug, again because the cable is so stiff and difficult to work with?
hi
if I may answer you as I originally introduced the furukawa to the UK
13 amp fuse as marco says is all you ever need so make it that
it is a hifi tuning UK gold II fuse
the cable is stiff but once bent it does not move
hope that helps
once the fuse is fitted you will never need to remove it in theory
Martin ... a bit more info please?
David has answered most of your questions. Yes you can bend it into an 'S' shape but don't expect it to sag - it will simply hang in the air unsupported. The strain is really on the end connectors and whether they stay firmly connected. Good plugs like the Furutechs definitely help.
From my own limited experience of regenerated mains and even balanced power is that the lead to this plays a more important part than any other equipment (well at least in the context of my own system)
Completely agree, John. After all, the entire system's power is running through it. In that context, my Furukawa 2.6 is not over the top at all. Most importantly, I could hear the improvement immediately.
Completely agree, John. After all, the entire system's power is running through it. In that context, my Furukawa 2.6 is not over the top at all. Most importantly, I could hear the improvement immediately.
I agree also. I'm using the 2.1, Furutech plug and iego / Furu / Oyaide iec. Sounds great, the Furutech Alpha cable is also good but unshielded.
realysm42
10-04-2013, 19:50
Well I just got my Aquarius so :upyours:
Sounds amazing first impressions....
Do report on it when you've had a good listen please, Martin.
realysm42
10-04-2013, 20:30
Will do, might start another thread though, different topic to some extent.
Will do, might start another thread though
Yes, that seems best.
From my own limited experience of regenerated mains and even balanced power is that the lead to this plays a more important part than any other equipment (well at least in the context of my own system)
100% correct and totally agree! :)
Well I just got my Aquarius so :upyours:
Sounds amazing first impressions....
:king:
Another stiffy (as Mike calls it, am I missing something there Mike:) getting ready to go out of MCRU Towers.................
The IEC is not on yet of course! Just shows it does bend quite a lot if needed, this one has Furutech Gold plated plug and will have the FI-11 N1 gold plated IEC and a HFT fuse.....
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ALL%20MCRU%20POWER%20LEADS/IMAG0585_zpsc6e169f4.jpg
Another stiffy (as Mike calls it, am I missing something there Mike:))
That depends on what end you shove up her arse first! :D
Marco.
That depends on what end you shove up her arse first! :D
Marco.
ooo errrr missus
such vulgarity will not be tolerated, I feel a ban coming on for you
here it is, a RAYBAN :lol:
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ADS/slideshows/rayban_zpsf0162ea1.jpg
Hehehe... Well, it wasn't me who brought up the subject of 'stiffies'! :eyebrows:
It's Mikey's fault - he's got a mind like a sewer, whereas I'm just an innocent wee soul ;)
Marco.
sheridd2
16-04-2013, 18:28
You've probably guessed I'm the purchaser of the recent Furukawa power cord. It seemed to break in last night, had it powering my P10 since last Friday.
Kudos for David from MCRU getting it to me so quickly.
I got mine with Furutech gold connectors, both mains plug and IEC.
I know some of you guys use the rhodium plugs but I've no experience of them.
I'm tempted sometime to go down the road of trying the Furutech FI 50 Piezo connector but it's £200 plus and it's a Rhodium coated connector?
Would it be a good idea to mix a gold plug and Rhodium connector?
The Furukawa replaced a Valhalla power cord and seems to be as good. Will there be further burn / improvements to come?
I'm happy with how my system is sounding now with the P10, very clean but still very musical.
Wakefield Turntables
16-04-2013, 18:40
Im still waiting delivery of the P10. I have a reference grade power cable made up so now its just a matter of time. :eyebrows:
Im still waiting delivery of the P10. I have a reference grade power cable made up so now its just a matter of time. :eyebrows:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
:ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner:
Wakefield Turntables
16-04-2013, 19:22
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
:ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner:
Why? Whats the relevance?
A few days ago you were "designing" a power cord, so you have it finished already?
Wakefield Turntables
16-04-2013, 19:40
How hard is it to "design" a power lead!!!! The answer is, it isnt. In fact it's easier to find other companies components and assemble your own. Ive perfected my own leads over the last 15 years. Mine have custom casted pure silver components that dont rely on screws in any way shape or form (work that one out :eyebrows:). That sure beats silver or rhodium plating.
Screening and shielding is a piece of piss and easily addressed and any idiot with a modicum of intelligence can achieve a high level of EMI/RFI and vibrational control. Additionally I think all the hysteria about having a plug that costs hundreds of pounds is, well, BS! I've tried plugs which costs several hundred pounds to one which cost several hundred pence and noted no difference what so ever :trust: I'll only start to buy stuff like this If you can produce me one single piece of well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system. I honestly dont think you can. The conductive capabilities and diameter of the solid core are all that matter to me, the bits that science can measure ;) We will probably disagree but thats life. I look forward to your comments.
MikeMusic
16-04-2013, 20:08
You've probably guessed I'm the purchaser of the recent Furukawa power cord. It seemed to break in last night, had it powering my P10 since last Friday.
Kudos for David from MCRU getting it to me so quickly.
I got mine with Furutech gold connectors, both mains plug and IEC.
I know some of you guys use the rhodium plugs but I've no experience of them.
I'm tempted sometime to go down the road of trying the Furutech FI 50 Piezo connector but it's £200 plus and it's a Rhodium coated connector?
Would it be a good idea to mix a gold plug and Rhodium connector?
The Furukawa replaced a Valhalla power cord and seems to be as good. Will there be further burn / improvements to come?
I'm happy with how my system is sounding now with the P10, very clean but still very musical.
From my experience the Furukawa gets better and better.
Difficult to know when it reaches optimum, especially as I was doing other things as well
Don't know about the other connectors. Someone said somewhere they preferred the gold to the Rhodium (forget where)
Hi Rexton,
just browsing this thread and am a bit confused by your using solid cast silver "components" (so not the wire? or am I wrong in that assumption), but your not believing that plugs can make a difference.
Guy
I'll only start to buy stuff like this If you can produce me one single piece of well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system.
It's not about scientific proof, Andrew, otherwise a lot of what we know to be good for SQ would be turfed out on account of 'there is no proof'. You don't need proof, you just need a pair of ears and to listen. If you can't hear a difference then fine.
If, on the other hand, you try to tell me that there is no difference in SQ between Kimber phono plugs and silver WBTs, or an MK plug and rhodium Furutech, then you'd be mistaken.
How hard is it to "design" a power lead!!!! The answer is, it isnt. In fact it's easier to find other companies components and assemble your own. Ive perfected my own leads over the last 15 years. Mine have custom casted pure silver components that dont rely on screws in any way shape or form (work that one out :eyebrows:). That sure beats silver or rhodium plating.
Screening and shielding is a piece of piss and easily addressed and any idiot with a modicum of intelligence can achieve a high level of EMI/RFI and vibrational control. Additionally I think all the hysteria about having a plug that costs hundreds of pounds is, well, BS! I've tried plugs which costs several hundred pounds to one which cost several hundred pence and noted no difference what so ever :trust: I'll only start to buy stuff like this If you can produce me one single piece of well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system. I honestly dont think you can. The conductive capabilities and diameter of the solid core are all that matter to me, the bits that science can measure ;) We will probably disagree but thats life. I look forward to your comments.
Well written research, what has writing got to do with sound, you cannot hear writing, doing away with plugs makes no sense safety wise so how do you intend to connect your home made power cord to the P10 then? Take the iec inlet off and invalidate the warranty? Wise move :)
Hi Andy,
Additionally I think all the hysteria about having a plug that costs hundreds of pounds is, well, BS! I've tried plugs which costs several hundred pounds to one which cost several hundred pence and noted no difference what so ever :trust:
That's cool, but your experience in that area is most certainly very different from mine. Also, if you genuinely believe that, then why did your have your tonearm cable from Yannis suitably 'adorned' with Furutech's and Eichmann's finest? ;)
If you're such a cable expert, Andy, why didn't you just ask Yannis to send you his raw tonearm cable and terminate it yourself with your own 'wonder plugs'? ;)
I'll only start to buy stuff like this If you can produce me one single piece of well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system.
Really? Since when have you relied on evidence from scientific research to confirm the efficacy of the (many) modifications you've carried out to your kit? I didn't notice you asking Paul Hynes to supply peer-reviewed research to confirm that re-capping the PCB on your Techy would result in a sonic upgrade.... ;)
You seem to pick and choose when to trust your ears and when to turn into a rabid measurements-obsessed objectivist!! :D
You can't have it both ways, muchacho....
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
16-04-2013, 21:41
Gentlemen, gentlemen we are all entitled to an opinion. I'm very sceptical and need more proof than others when it comes to all things hifi.
Hi Rexton,
just browsing this thread and am a bit confused by your using solid cast silver "components" (so not the wire? or am I wrong in that assumption), but your not believing that plugs can make a difference.
Guy
No you are not making a wrong assumption. We dont use brass plug pins but pure silver.
It's not about scientific proof, Andrew, otherwise a lot of what we know to be good for SQ would be turfed out on account of 'there is no proof'. You don't need proof, you just need a pair of ears and to listen. If you can't hear a difference then fine.
If, on the other hand, you try to tell me that there is no difference in SQ between Kimber phono plugs and silver WBTs, or an MK plug and rhodium Furutech, then you'd be mistaken.
You are entitled to your opinion. I dont see how you can say that I would be mistaken. As you say, all I need is a pair of ears. Mine are different to yours so I hear different things to you, hardly a mistake Martin, just a perception.
Well written research, what has writing got to do with sound, you cannot hear writing, doing away with plugs makes no sense safety wise so how do you intend to connect your home made power cord to the P10 then? Take the iec inlet off and invalidate the warranty? Wise move :)
No! You miss the point altogther. I have made no mention of removing any IEC parts. I intend to connect my "home-made" power cord like any other person, through the IEC.
Hi Andy,
That's cool, but your experience in that area is most certainly very different from mine. Also, if you genuinely believe that, then why did your have your tonearm cable from Yannis suitably 'adorned' with Furutech's and Eichmann's finest? ;)
If you're such a cable expert, Andy, why didn't you just ask Yannis to send you his raw tonearm cable and terminate it yourself with your own 'wonder plugs'? ;)
Really? Since when have you relied on evidence from scientific research to confirm the efficacy of the (many) modifications you've carried out to your kit? I didn't notice you asking Paul Hynes to supply peer-reviewed research to confirm that re-capping the PCB on your Techy would result in a sonic upgrade.... ;)
You seem to pick and choose when to trust your ears and when to turn into a rabid measurements-obsessed objectivist!! :D
You can't have it both ways, muchacho....
Marco.
:lol: Thanks for the nice comments. Firstly I'm not a cable expert and have never made that claim. Secondly I couldn't be arsed and could afford someone to make me some cables, so Yannis got the business. Thirdly, my tonearm cable cable dosen't need a "wonder plug" I asked Yannis to terminate with Eichmann silver bullets, hence keeping to my philosphy of keeping the conductor pure as possible. Paul deals with electronics. These things can be measures and to some extent the effects can be explained scientifically which is what I like. I discussed the various upgrades to the PCB with Paul before I had it modified. Finally, please don't call me an objectivist, I had a read on that forum and dont wished to be tarred with the same brush.
Ahh, just what I like a decent discussion. I'm off to bed, needless to say I'll probably be flamed tomorrow. Looking forward to further dicussions. Night boys. ;)
Andy, you're entitled to your opinion. All I'm asking for is consistency.
There are many upgrades/modifications you've carried out to your system that were not subject to the need for "proof" of their efficacy FIRST before you carried them out. Therefore, to single out plugs as somehow being different, is a little odd. Surely you can see that?
If you need "proof" of the possible benefits of any hi-fi upgrade or equipment modification in advance before you carry it out, that's absolutely fine, but then, if your views are to remain consistent, those principles must apply to EVERY example of your equipment modifying or upgrading, not just to *some* of it! ;)
Secondly I couldn't be arsed and could afford someone to make me some cables, so Yannis got the business.
Exactly my policy with all the cables (and plugs) I've bought for my system. However, my point is this, and I refer to what you wrote earlier:
I'll only start to buy stuff like this If you can produce me one single piece of well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system.
Clearly that's not the case, as you bought a 'fancy' Furutech DIN plug and 'fancy' Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs for your Yannis tonearm cable, without being in possession of the slightest morsel of "well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system" first!! :eyebrows:
If you're willing to invest in 'fancy-foo' plugs for your tonearm cable, and recognise their sonic benefits, then why not also do the same with the plugs on your power leads? I fail to see what the difference is. If, as you say, you 'couldn't be arsed and could afford someone to make you some cables', then why not also apply that principle to your mains leads??
I trust that you appreciate the dichotomy. It's the inconsistency of your opinion I'm highlighting, not its validity.
Marco.
Colin Wonfor
17-04-2013, 06:15
How hard is it to "design" a power lead!!!! The answer is, it isnt. In fact it's easier to find other companies components and assemble your own. Ive perfected my own leads over the last 15 years. Mine have custom casted pure silver components that dont rely on screws in any way shape or form (work that one out :eyebrows:). That sure beats silver or rhodium plating.
Screening and shielding is a piece of piss and easily addressed and any idiot with a modicum of intelligence can achieve a high level of EMI/RFI and vibrational control. Additionally I think all the hysteria about having a plug that costs hundreds of pounds is, well, BS! I've tried plugs which costs several hundred pounds to one which cost several hundred pence and noted no difference what so ever :trust: I'll only start to buy stuff like this If you can produce me one single piece of well written research to suggest that a PLUG of all things can scientifically improve the sonic qualities of my sound system. I honestly dont think you can. The conductive capabilities and diameter of the solid core are all that matter to me, the bits that science can measure ;) We will probably disagree but thats life. I look forward to your comments.
Dear Rexton.
Many years ago a small company designed Gold Plated Mains Plugs, well Gold plated MK and Delta Plugs at least. Now many company in our tiny world of Hi-fi do the same, tests were done by lots of test houses and good reviewers at the time, and in deed the plugs and socket did improve the sound and at high power levels did run cooler. And you can hear the improvements.
As to mains cables, how do you design one? shielding yes, but what is it for is the big question, and how is the current drawn through the cable? These question have to be answered, oh I am not going to answers them so forget that. Our cables did go for lots of test for safety and designed for purpose, by us and external test houses.
So buying of the shelf wire may not be the solution.
The same question for you may also be said about amplifiers let face it, it is a only a dynamic power supply with a faster than average response to the control reference i.e. music. So Quad was right! "a wire with gain" no!. We all have our preference and budget and they all sound completely different.
Best Col:)
Oh not shill friend. :eek:
MikeMusic
17-04-2013, 07:06
Will there be further burn / improvements to come?
Suggest you pick a favourite track and play it every few days.
I played some CDs again over a period of weeks and was amazed at how much more came out
Wakefield Turntables
17-04-2013, 07:57
Guys,
All your points are valid. However my view point is such that I'm extremely sceptical about things like mains leads. I must admit that I did indeed buy a furutech product prior to my current opinions on cabling. Peoples views change Marco. I'm not repeating or justifying myself again with regards to the eichmanns. I just find it extremely difficult to believe that a plugs external composition can have such a massive impact on how an electrical current gets into a pcb. For me it's all about the conductor and protection against air Bourne nasties like Emi/rfi etc.
brian2957
17-04-2013, 08:00
Can you tell me ( link please ) where you get your cable and shielding from Andrew ?
Guys,
All your points are valid. However my view point is such that I'm extremely sceptical about things like mains leads. I must admit that I did indeed buy a furutech product prior to my current opinions on cabling. Peoples views change Marco. I'm not repeating or justifying myself again with regards to the eichmanns. I just find it extremely difficult to believe that a plugs external composition can have such a massive impact on how an electrical current gets into a pcb. For me it's all about the conductor and protection against air Bourne nasties like Emi/rfi etc.
Fair enough, Andy. I've made my point, which you understand, and I accept yours, so that's cool. Onwards and upwards! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
17-04-2013, 09:22
Can you tell me ( link please ) where you get your cable and shielding from Andrew ?
I don't use anything special. A double layer of 1mm (so thats 2mm) of aluminium foil over the Teflon tubing, them two layers of expandable copper braiding with a polymer fill. And then if I'm feeling flush some nice expandable braid to finish off. Forgot to mention core diameter is 3.5mm 4n quality solid silver.
Fair enough, Andy. I've made my point, which you understand, and I accept yours, so that's cool. Onwards and upwards! :cool:
Marco.
:pub: +1.
brian2957
17-04-2013, 09:26
Thanks Andrew sounds excellent , I'll have a look :)
sheridd2
11-05-2013, 18:19
David from MCRS came in for a bit of stick recently on these pages.
I've recently bought a P10 and using this forum I decided to buy a Furukawa power cord from MCRS like others had.
Now I had read a long time ago that Rhodium gave a larger than life sound so I've always steered clear of it in connectors, so my power cord came with gold connectors, (mains plug and IEC).
Giving it a couple of weeks to burn in I found the mid range and especially the treble were lacking in comparsion to the Valhalla cable I was using before.
I found the sound 'dull' and not inviting to listen to.
I spoke with David and explained my problem and he very kindly sent out a trial pair of Furutech Rhodium plugs free of charge.
I've been using these now for about a week and they have transformed the sound, the mid range and treble are back with the treble greatly extended, but not shrill either.
So, I'm biting the bullet and buying a FI-50 Rhodium connector to see if that improves the sound still further.
I've found David to be very helpful, courteous with very fair and prompt service. I couldn't be happier with the service he has provided for me.
sheridd2
11-05-2013, 19:49
I got David's company wrong in my last post, I apologise for that, it should have been MCRU ... Mains Cables R U.
Everything else still stands, David has provided me with great service.
Sovereign
12-05-2013, 08:17
Thanks for posting your findings of the mains cable from MCRU, what were your thoughts regarding the P10?
MikeMusic
12-05-2013, 09:40
David from MCRS came in for a bit of stick recently on these pages.
I've recently bought a P10 and using this forum I decided to buy a Furukawa power cord from MCRS like others had.
Now I had read a long time ago that Rhodium gave a larger than life sound so I've always steered clear of it in connectors, so my power cord came with gold connectors, (mains plug and IEC).
Giving it a couple of weeks to burn in I found the mid range and especially the treble were lacking in comparsion to the Valhalla cable I was using before.
I found the sound 'dull' and not inviting to listen to.
I spoke with David and explained my problem and he very kindly sent out a trial pair of Furutech Rhodium plugs free of charge.
I've been using these now for about a week and they have transformed the sound, the mid range and treble are back with the treble greatly extended, but not shrill either.
So, I'm biting the bullet and buying a FI-50 Rhodium connector to see if that improves the sound still further.
I've found David to be very helpful, courteous with very fair and prompt service. I couldn't be happier with the service he has provided for me.
Agreed about David. He makes very nice cables
Perhaps
Mains Cables r Sensational :)
I went with gold connectors as the Rhodium are that much more expensive, certainly looking at the prices for Ultimate gold or rhodium
Do you think they are VFM over the gold ?
MikeMusic
12-05-2013, 09:42
Thanks for posting your findings of the mains cable from MCRU, what were your thoughts regarding the P10?
Butting in....
My opinion. The P10 makes a staggering difference to the sound
I feel sorry for 'the Valhalla cable I was using before' never mind this new MCRU stuff. Poor discarded thing, it even sounded good IIRC. Never mind about David
Glad too my ears/system is/are imune to the sound of mains cables. Yipee
sheridd2
12-05-2013, 16:09
Thanks for posting your findings of the mains cable from MCRU, what were your thoughts regarding the P10?
I wanted to post to say I was very happy with the service from David from MCRU and I explained why. The Furukawa with gold connectors was a backward step in my system and it was great service from David to provide me with two Rhodium connectors at no cost and not really knowing me very well to trust me with these.
I've already posted my thoughts on the P10 previously in the thread when I originally got it but for me the main benefit was removal of mains grunge, or veils, from the music. The only way I can describe it was the music was 'squeaky clean' and this allowed more detail to come through and brings you closer to the performance. The bass is better too.
There's a review of the new Isotek mains regenerator in the current Hi Fi Plus issue, which costs around £12.5K, but it only puts out 600 watts, whereas the P10 outputs 1.5 kw and costs a third of the price of the Isotek, so makes the P10 incredible value for money.
Hi David,
have you had the chance to hear a Balanaced mains transformer in a system?
I've got one, just not hooked it up yet!
Heard one though and its fantastic - best improvement I've heard in my system.
I'm mentioning this as thought you might be interested. :)
I have heard a power regen too, and they seem to do different things.
I found the Regen to bring more subtle improvement than the balanced mains.
sheridd2
12-05-2013, 16:19
Agreed about David. He makes very nice cables
Perhaps
Mains Cables r Sensational :)
I went with gold connectors as the Rhodium are that much more expensive, certainly looking at the prices for Ultimate gold or rhodium
Do you think they are VFM over the gold ?
Absolutely. I went from the Valhalla powering the P10 to the Furukawa with gold connectors, Furutech 1363 mains plug and F11-N1 iec.
The Valhalla shone more 'light' to the mid range and the treble.
The Furukawa with gold connectors sounded dull in comparsion and not involving. After changing over to the Rhodium plugs and a week's burn in the mid range and treble was up there on a par or possibly better than the Valhalla.
I think the silver coating on the Valhalla does the job of bringing out the mid range and treble.
For the rest of my system I have gold connectors on all my mains power cord so I don't know if changing these over to Rhodium would bring out too much mid range and treble.
My advice would depend on how happy you currently are with the mid range and treble of your system, if it's about right them stick with the gold connectors, if you are unhappy with these ranges and want more then go for the Rhodium plugs to try.
I know I couldn't go back to the gold connectors on my P10 mains cord and for me the Rhodium plugs are excellent value because it makes my system sound right for me.
sheridd2
12-05-2013, 16:32
I feel sorry for 'the Valhalla cable I was using before' never mind this new MCRU stuff. Poor discarded thing, it even sounded good IIRC. Never mind about David
Glad too my ears/system is/are imune to the sound of mains cables. Yipee
I can't really understand how you can say your system / ears are immune to the sound of mains cables?
I find it amazing that I can tweak the sound of my system by changing two plugs on the power cord that runs the P10.
All the following is with my system playing at low level.
Valhalla ..... more mid range and top end, allows the air and space to come through.
Furukawa, with gold plugs ...... mid range and treble dull and lifeless, could not really listen to it for long, going back to the Valhalla confirmed this.
Not wanting to get stuck with the Furukawa as the resale value would be low, (I'd never heard of it before getting the P10), and researching Rhodium on the net and reading how it extended the treble, I tried the Rhodium plugs.
Furukawa with Rhodium plugs ..... treble now beautifully extended and the sound so involving. I spent Friday night listening to music and found myself playing tracks I normally skip and marvelling at how good everything was sounding.
All the above by changing between two power cords and changing the plugs on one of these power cords.
Sovereign
12-05-2013, 16:34
Garry I have a balanced power supply on it's way to me, I will put it before my AG1500 regenerator. Looking forward to seeing if the two work in tandem.
I can't really understand how you can say your system / ears are immune to the sound of mains cables?
Hi
Sorry you don't understand. Simple really - people and their homes, HiFi, worlds, expectations are different.
I saw a post a couple of years ago saying how mains cable X had changed their system, confirmed by others. Give it a go perhaps your opinion will be changed I thought. I ordered and fitted cable X heard sod all difference. Read more posts what amazing difference cables make - smiled. I'm saving money and have a discount voucher if I want it
I did hear the difference my regenerator made though. Enjoy your P10 and chosen cables.
Edit:
I did not "believe" as MCRU ironically terms it because years ago Mags I read had Russ Andrews adds everywhere. I thought the cost incredible and did not believe they did what the tin suggested, not just cables BTW. Anyone who has to advertise that much can't have products that sell themselves. I trust you recognise what I am saying, good stuff gets spoken well of (without asking by the vendor). When I discovered Forums I decided to be open minded and tried things I had previously dismissed as well as new things I'd not met before, like Mains Regeneration.
I should also say my Amp is desgined to not be sensitive to cabling the manufacturer specifically state any good quality cable will do. Seems they are right!
I can't really understand how you can say your system / ears are immune to the sound of mains cables?
I find it amazing that I can tweak the sound of my system by changing two plugs on the power cord that runs the P10.
All the following is with my system playing at low level.
Valhalla ..... more mid range and top end, allows the air and space to come through.
Furukawa, with gold plugs ...... mid range and treble dull and lifeless, could not really listen to it for long, going back to the Valhalla confirmed this.
Not wanting to get stuck with the Furukawa as the resale value would be low, (I'd never heard of it before getting the P10), and researching Rhodium on the net and reading how it extended the treble, I tried the Rhodium plugs.
Furukawa with Rhodium plugs ..... treble now beautifully extended and the sound so involving. I spent Friday night listening to music and found myself playing tracks I normally skip and marvelling at how good everything was sounding.
All the above by changing between two power cords and changing the plugs on one of these power cords.
I answered the above. Then found this recent post by MCRU on another thread.
well the P10 regenerates the mains so why should you need a wizz bang mains lead to power it?
weird!
Some things don't add up. Your cable supplier does not think you need a wizz bang lead for a P10
Lol... That's quite funny. I think David might need to do some homework! ;)
My view, as that of not necessarily an advocate of using a mains regenerator (as opposed to simply optimising one's mains supply less 'intrusively' at source, via other means), is that by feeding the P10 with any mains lead properly designed for hi-fi purposes (instead of something less suited to the job, such as a bog-standard 'kettle lead'), you're effectively improving the quality of the P10's 'source input', as it were, by reducing noise and, in turn, the amount of crap within the incoming mains supply that the P10 has to deal with and 'regenerate', thereby making its job easier.
Therefore, in basic terms: the LESS 'garbage in' (in the first place), then the LESS 'garbage out'; thus the more music you can hear after the P10 has done its job. Simples... :)
Marco.
I did not say you don't need a good mains lead for a P10 or any other similar bit of kit, I said it was weird that a regenerator should need one.
I do wish some posters would contribute to the AOS more constructively instead of nit picking and generally being confrontational. I read some posts and there is never a good word said from some, why bother contributing, just go and listen to music if you have nothing nice to write?
David,
Whilst I agree with your points in general (although I wouldn't put Alan into the category you've outlined), you clearly asked this question in another thread:
Why should you need a wizz bang mains lead to power it [the P10]?
The implication of the above was that you didn't consider such an item necessary, which as Alan pointed out, was rather ironic, considering that you're not only a cable vendor - and a high profile one at that - but also a retailer of the P10 unit in question... ;)
As for it being "weird" that the P10 should perform more effectively, when powered by a high-quality mains lead, designed for hi-fi purposes, than simply an inferior (for the job in hand) 'kettle lead', then I trust that my subjective explanation earlier will have solved the mystery a little... :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-05-2013, 16:58
Therefore, in basic terms: the LESS 'garbage in' (in the first place), then the LESS 'garbage out'; thus the more music you can hear after the P10 has done its job. Simples... :)
Marco.
I took some persuading that the PPP would be better with a better mains lead.
Think I was looking at the 'magic bullet' of regenerator and taking the meaning to be absolute.
Tested - blow me down it is better
If it did *totally* regenerate the mains from the ground up then any old crap lead would do
What it does is work only with what it is given.
Perhaps regenerator is the wrong word.....
If it did *totally* regenerate the mains from the ground up then any old crap lead would do
If it had an INFINITE reservoir of power such that the current trickle in averaged at least the power consumed; and if it had INFINITE rejection ratio such that input noise and distortion had no effect whatsoever on the output.
Being a real-world regenerator, the P10 still benefits from a good input lead and connection directly to the ring or a good spur.
Precisely, Martin :)
However, I've yet to be convinced to buy one, and comparing the effects of using something like a P10, against the hard-wired (largely fuse-less) mains set-up I'm operating now, would be problematic, to say the least.
Maybe one day, somehow? :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-05-2013, 20:20
If it had an INFINITE reservoir of power such that the current trickle in averaged at least the power consumed; and if it had INFINITE rejection ratio such that input noise and distortion had no effect whatsoever on the output.
Being a real-world regenerator, the P10 still benefits from a good input lead and connection directly to the ring or a good spur.
I would like a better word than regenerator. That doesn't fit for me
Any ideas ?
Well... it does take mains in and regenerate it.
I can't think of a better name unless we go all marketing like and call it a recombubulator or something difficult to pronounce like an eXcrangon or perhaps twee like a twisp.
MikeMusic
17-05-2013, 06:57
Well... it does take mains in and regenerate it.
I can't think of a better name unless we go all marketing like and call it a recombubulator or something difficult to pronounce like an eXcrangon or perhaps twee like a twisp.
I think my mistake and maybe a common one is that
"Regenerator"
sounds like an absolute which of course it isn't. I even checked with the Oracle herself who put me right.
Seems odd though, non technical thought, that electricity can give such different results. There's something complicated going on that is beyond me. I'm dead glad to have the P10 and Ultimates sorting the muck out.
I remember Peel once saying he couldn't understand why the electricity didn't dribble out of the sockets
:)
I think that anyone who believes that the mains supply powering their hi-fi system is a pure as the driven snow, or that if it is 'dirty', then it's not adversely affecting the sonic performance of their equipment, is living in cloud-cuckoo land - and so any mains lead or mains regenerator, connected to said hi-fi system that effectively addresses those issues, through judicious design, is bound to have some sort of an effect.
The issue is whether some can hear any difference, either through a genuine lack of hearing acuity or a deafness caused by their ingrained prejudice....
Marco.
MikeMusic
17-05-2013, 09:32
I think that anyone who believes that the mains supply powering their hi-fi system is a pure as the driven snow, or that if it is 'dirty', then it's not adversely affecting the sonic performance of their equipment, is living in cloud-cuckoo land - and so any mains lead or mains regenerator, connected to said hi-fi system that effectively addresses those issues, through judicious design, is bound to have some sort of an effect.
The issue is whether some can hear any difference, either through a genuine lack of hearing acuity or a deafness caused by their ingrained prejudice....
Marco.
Martin T started me on the road, Russ Andrews gave me a few nudges and Martin T and the assembled have helped me nicely.
It's possible that we should start with mains before anything
My pretty good system sounded dire when we first moved into the new house.
That was 90% down to mains
It is an odd thing to take on board and many cannot or will not do it.
Open minds get more music
.
The issue is whether some can hear any difference, either through a genuine lack of hearing acuity or a deafness caused by their ingrained prejudices....
Marco.
Isn't that simply the flip side of calling someone who does hear a difference deluded? It is a fine line to be walking. I think we have to accept that there are also people who hear a difference but not an improvement, and those who hear an improvement but one which is so marginal it does not justify the cost and or effort involved.
Martin T started me on the road, Russ Andrews gave me a few nudges and Martin T and the assembled have helped me nicely.
It's possible that we should start with mains before anything
My pretty good system sounded dire when we first moved into the new house.
That was 90% down to mains
It is an odd thing to take on board and may cannot or will not do it.
Open minds get more music
I've long considered (now backed up by considerable experience) that the mains supply is effectively the 'fuel' for a hi-fi system, and that that 'fuel' benefits from being 'clean', just as petrol or diesel does inside the engine of a car... Therefore, the mains supply is the true 'source' of any hi-fi system, not the first audio component in the chain, especially when you consider that what we're effectively hearing through our speakers is the mains, after having been modulated.
Why else is the quality of power supplies, used in hi-fi equipment, responsible for so much of its sonic performance? Think about it!
Yup, RA, or precisely his booklet entitled 'The Power and the Glory', introduced I think in the early 90s, started me off on that concept. I installed my first dedicated mains spur not long afterwards and have been reaping the rewards of experimenting in that area, and implementing the sonic benefits into my hi-fi system, ever since! :)
Marco.
Sovereign
17-05-2013, 10:07
It was definately RA who got me going as well, I bought his Kimber ring main and the difference was quite considerable for all to hear
Isn't that simply the flip side of calling someone who does hear a difference deluded? It is a fine line to be walking. I think we have to accept that there are also people who hear a difference but not an improvement, and those who hear an improvement but one which is so marginal it does not justify the cost and or effort involved.
Yup, I'm merely highlighting that it works both ways. The fact is, people have the propensity to allow their prejudices to affect their judgement in many ways, other than simply imagining things that don't actually exist because it suits them!
If expectation bias clouds our judgement on hi-fi matters, and I've no doubt that it does, then so does invoking selective deafness, as a result of ingrained prejudice, when dealing with something that doesn't 'fit' with our sensibilities.... ;)
Marco.
Yup, I'm merely highlighting that it works both ways. The fact is, people have the propensity to allow their prejudices to affect their judgement in many ways, other than simply imagining things that don't actually exist because it suits them!
If expectation bias clouds our judgement on hi-fi matters, and I've no doubt that it does, then so does invoking selective deafness, as a result of ingrained prejudice, when dealing with something that doesn't 'fit' with our sensibilities.... ;)
Marco.
I see the point you are making now. One thing I would add to that is that it is easier to drop the ingrained prejudices/selective deafness when confronted with the facts - You recall I agreed with you that siting a mains block off the floor in reality improves the sound even though my prejudice (if you like) tells me it shouldn't, than to drop the expectation bias that my new, highly rated and more expensive amp/cable etc must sound better than what I had previously when in reality it doesn't. The ears are hard to fool, the brain is easy to fool.
MikeMusic
17-05-2013, 10:45
I've long considered (now backed up by considerable experience) that the mains supply is effectively the 'fuel' for a hi-fi system, and that that 'fuel' benefits from being 'clean', just as petrol or diesel does inside the engine of a car... Therefore, the mains supply is the true 'source' of any hi-fi system, not the first audio component in the chain, especially when you consider that what we're effectively hearing through our speakers is the mains, after having been modulated.
Yup, RA, or precisely his booklet entitled 'The Power and the Glory', introduced I think in the early 90s, started me off on that concept. I installed my first dedicated mains spur not long afterwards and have been reaping the rewards of experimenting in that area, and implementing the sonic benefits into my hi-fi system, ever since! :)
Marco.
I'm old enough to remember the "do speaker cables make any difference" debate.
When my original Linn/Naim system was brought over by Grahams the younger Graham brought a Sound Org table for the LP12. Think I was one of the first to get one. PITA as my lovely new hifi was going to reside on my then lovely white Schreiber unit !
We moved late 80s and I learned a separate ring was good for my hifi, duly installed and impressive.
I discovered Mana mid 90s I think and Damian (?) brought it along and said he would take it away if I couldn't hear the difference.
I had heard an ancient Linn/Naim system (Paul Ogle's I think) on stacks of Mana so I was prepared but still surprised and paid for it on the spot.
The mains thing after that was pushing a slightly open door, but I really did think Martin T was at least over keen on mains cables, possibly in need of different drugs :)
but I saw (heard) the light and here I am with loads of mains cables and a P10
One day I might compare some of my old kit with top end cables to the upgraded kit naff mains cables better still I should sell my old kit !
:)
I see the point you are making now. One thing I would add to that is that it is easier to drop the ingrained prejudices/selective deafness when confronted with the facts - You recall I agreed with you that siting a mains block off the floor in reality improves the sound even though my prejudice (if you like) tells me it shouldn't, than to drop the expectation bias that my new, highly rated and more expensive amp/cable etc must sound better than what I had previously when in reality it doesn't. The ears are hard to fool, the brain is easy to fool.
Sure, Martin, although the two are intrinsically linked. As I said, it works both ways: one can 'fool' oneself into believing that something doesn't exist, just as much as the other way round. The trouble is, 'objectivists' would have you believe that the principle only works one way - the way that best suits their sensibilities and thought processes! ;)
My view is that I simply will never understand why ordinary audio enthusiasts (not designers of equipment), continually require 'proof', in the form of scientific evidence (especially when much of said evidence is flawed, due to incompleteness), before they believe what their ears tell them exists.
Yes, we all know that our ears can be fooled, but so can our minds, when clouded by prejudice and a reliance on evidence, often provided by flawed science, so if you're not willing at some point to trust your senses, how can you ever be sure that what you've experienced is real?
Me? I worry not, and after having satisfied my own subjective judgement criteria and assessment procedure, when identifying new (to me) concepts in audio (I never just 'automatically believe' anything), I'm quite happy to trust my senses and just enjoy the music :)
I will never 'get' the alternative mentality, which I've referred to. For me, it's un-human.
Marco.
My view is that I simply will never understand why ordinary audio enthusiasts (not designers of equipment), continually require 'proof', in the form of scientific evidence (especially when much of said evidence is flawed, due to incompleteness), before they believe what their ears tell them exists.
.
It's not so much that they require proof it is simply a desire to understand why something is the case if it flies in the face of known science and indeed sometimes common sense. In those situations Occum's Razor tells us that the most likely explanation is not undiscovered science but expectation bias and placebo i.e that most dodgy and unreliable item - the human mind. Don't get me wrong - I am playing devils' advocate here to an extent - but if we do not seek to understand and qualify what we hear then we are unable to quantify it and therefore to exploit it further.
I do, but I do it in my own way. I simply don't need an oscilloscope or some squiggly graphs to confirm the validity of my listening experiences... ;)
Science is never a 'done and dusted' entity; it's a constantly evolving thing, which is why 'black and white' thinking rarely works. We must examine, truly understand and resolve the shades of grey in between, if we are to ever have any chance of possessing a FULL understanding of anything in this world.
Marco.
David,
Whilst I agree with your points in general (although I wouldn't put Alan into the category you've outlined), you clearly asked this question in another thread:
The implication of the above was that you didn't consider such an item necessary, which as Alan pointed out, was rather ironic, considering that you're not only a cable vendor - and a high profile one at that - but also a retailer of the P10 unit in question... ;)
As for it being "weird" that the P10 should perform more effectively, when powered by a high-quality mains lead, designed for hi-fi purposes, than simply an inferior (for the job in hand) 'kettle lead', then I trust that my subjective explanation earlier will have solved the mystery a little... :)
Marco.
I was going to leave this but it is a new day...
Thanks for seeing my contribution as being not in MCRU's category
I did not say you don't need a good mains lead for a P10 or any other similar bit of kit, I said it was weird that a regenerator should need one.
I do wish some posters would contribute to the AOS more constructively instead of nit picking and generally being confrontational. I read some posts and there is never a good word said from some, why bother contributing, just go and listen to music if you have nothing nice to write?
Thank you for the clarification of what you meant.
With regard to your second para - far too commercially motivated a point of view, its a HiFi forum to discuss different points/opinions on HiFi, music and more as well as your shop window. I guess you only want to see posts saying David is wonderful and how product X transformed my system and is a must have. You get your fair share of those already.
I do, but I do it in my own way. I simply don't need an oscilloscope or some squiggly graphs to confirm the validity of my listening experiences... ;)
.
Neither do I but I do find that it can help in weeding out what us actually worth trying and what isn't. Measured spec is useful and there is no doubt it does give an indication as to how well something will work and how keenly it is priced. I'm not going to try something just because someone else says it is good, that will be just one factor in the decision. And with some items there is no opportunity to try before you buy (in your own system, anyway).
I was going to leave this but it is a new day...
Thanks for seeing my contribution as being not in MCRU's category
You're welcome, Alan.
I've noticed a change in your posting style/attitude of late, which if I'm honest, used to come across as a bit antagonistic and confrontational, I suspect unintentionally so, but your rather 'dry'/matter-of-fact way of expressing yourself sometimes leaves what you write open to misinterpretation.
Please don't be offended by that, I'm simply being honest about how you sometimes come across, or used to come across. However, my endorsement of your sentiments above is in recognition of what I see as a positive change in your posting style :)
Marco.
You're welcome, Alan.
I've noticed a change in your posting style/attitude of late, which if I'm honest, used to come across as a bit antagonistic and confrontational, I suspect unintentionally so, but your rather 'dry'/matter-of-fact way of expressing yourself sometimes leaves what you write open to misinterpretation.
Please don't be offended by that, I'm simply being honest about how you sometimes come across, or used to come across. However, my endorsement of your sentiments above is in recognition of what I see as a positive change in your posting style :)
Marco.
Thank Marco. I never wanted a career in the Diplomatic corps though obviously it is highly desirable in some circumstances. Yup I'm dry and to the point. No offense seen or taken.
Nice one. I think we understand each other well :)
Marco.
Hi Martin,
Measured spec is useful and there is no doubt it does give an indication as to how well something will work...
I agree in some instances, although to be honest, the only times I can think of where I would prioritise the validity of what specs told me, over what my ears did, would be in terms of knowing what the optimum stylus pressure range was of a specific cartridge, when reading the associated manufacturer's instruction manual, or perhaps when matching the electrical characteristics of a valve amplifier to its intended partnering speakers.
In all other instances, I would (ultimately) trust what my ears told me, or those of others whom I consider as discerning listeners. The latter means much more to me than the reputation of any so-called 'experts', or what scientific facts supposedly 'prove'. I don't give much of a toss about any of that.
In audio, you're only an 'expert' to me if you've proven to me (my ears) that your judgement and abilities produce the best sonic results, either in terms of building equipment or in assembling what I consider as a musically rewarding hi-fi system!
I'm not going to try something just because someone else says it is good, that will be just one factor in the decision. And with some items there is no opportunity to try before you buy (in your own system, anyway).
I rely mainly on experience and (educated) instinct. I particularly enjoy it when employing the latter unexpectedly pays dividends ;)
It's a human thing.... I like to use the skills that God gave me.
Marco.
I actually believe mains very from household to household and some people might not have the same issues as others around dirty mains. Its something you have to test out for yourself.
Some of the difference might be explained by
How your household is wired
Other equipment being used in the household
The quality of wiring being used
The age of the wiring
Your local area e.g. Are you close to a industrial equipment in your area
realysm42
17-05-2013, 14:46
Tbf John, to assume the opposite of what you've said (we've all got the same) would be ridiculous.
I actually believe mains very from household to household and some people might not have the same issues as others around dirty mains. Its something you have to test out for yourself.
Some of the difference might be explained by
How your household is wired
Other equipment being used in the household
The quality of wiring being used
The age of the wiring
Your local area e.g. Are you close to a industrial equipment in your area
Plus possibly if you are connected to neighbours (semi, terraced) what they use. Distance to sub station (closer the better). As best I can tell I've got lovely clean mains free from the problems many post about trying to fix.
Ali Tait
17-05-2013, 15:38
Yep mine is pretty good too - house is only a few years old- hence the balanced power supply did not make a huge difference. Different story at Gary's place though, really was night and day there.
Yup, mains quality is such a variable entity from place to place, with so many factors affecting it.
Agree 100(+1)% with Marco that the mains is the fuel that drives the system.
It was, in fact, one of the "Scottish Mafia" get-togethers where Ali had brought his balanced power supply to mine that made me realise this.
Fitting a balanced supply in my system made for the most obvious upgrade I've heard in any system, not just my own.
I live in a block of flats so understandably the mains quality isn't ideal.
In fact when Brian brought his Power Inspired regenerator over to mine and plugged it in, my mains was showing about 253V AC!
Guess I'm the ideal candidate for fixing the mains at the source?
I'd love to install a CU and dedicated spur just for the hifi but unfortunately I cant, so a balanced mains is the next best thing.
I have a 2KVA balanced mains waiting to be fitted, was getting cables n stuff sorted before I went ahead with it.
I've had a "plug n play" balanced transformer (unlike my hard wired jobbie) off a mate to let me try different cables with it before the install, (Thanks to Tony and David) and I've made some pretty interesting discoveries the last couple of days....
I'm even more convinced now of the old truism, you REALLY need to hear stuff for yourself in your own system!
But that's for another post. ;)
Sovereign
17-05-2013, 22:38
But that's for another post. ;)
Well hurry up and get posting! :)
BALANCED TRANSFORMER FINDINGS
I lOOKED AT TWO THINGS:
Amp (Better straight into wall or into BPS?)
Dac (BPS effect on a source component, not the amp)
MY CONCLUSIONS:
1. CABLE FROM WALL SOCKET TO BPS CAN MAKE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE.
Compared Supra LoRad 2.5/?Wattgate/Silver Toughplug, and B&Q cheapie cable and Lapp/Silver TOughplug/MK IEC.
Best cable from wall to BPS? Lapp - Not a lot in it, but Lapp made music sound more "alive" and involving.
Supra was a bit reserved in comparison, hiding some of the finer detail and air from the recording.
2. AFTER THE BPS - DO CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
Compared the Lapp with the Supra plugged into my Amp after the BPS.
Lapp better, not as noticable but you do miss something.
Surprised cables made a difference after the BPS, but there you go!
3. Amp - plug into wall or BP?
At first, I thought my amp sounded a little better direct into the wall, though through the BPS the bass was cleaner.
After another listen to the amp plugged into the BPS I wasn't sure.
So rather than doing the A/B hifi comparison thing, I played the same track and went about doing other things with it in the background.
Plugged into the BPS had better boogie to it, no loss of dynamics and bass was clearer.
Sitting down and doing a quick comparison again it was more obvious that the BPS improved the amp compared to plugging it into the wall.
I'M SURPRISED BIGGER BALANCED MAINS IMPROVEMENT WITH SOURCE COMPONENTS THAN AN AMP
A bigger improvement was plugging my Young Dac into the balanced mains, more improvement than with the amp.
The Dac was previously hooked up to a Belkin PF30 which improved it compared to straight into the wall, but plugged into the BPS it was a different animal all together.
Clearer, more impact, music flowed better and just sounded even more "right".
Not exactly the big "Balanced Mains Vs. Mains Regeneration" but a fantastic wee comparison, know where I am now with improving my mains.
Just need to hook up my own BPS now, a bit more work than just plugging cables in as it was with the balanced mains unit I tried with IEC and 13A inputs!
Have variables like choice of mains cable/best way to install the thing sorted now, so fitting it real soon. When its in place for a few days Brian will be bringing his AG500 over for a direct comparison.
Big thanks to Tony for the loan of his balanced mains block, helped me play around with different cables and get it straight in my head what Im doing wiring my own up.
wee tee cee
18-05-2013, 10:24
great post Gary....very interesting take on the different wires either side of the balanced mains. If you get the chance can you try your preferred set up and purely swap in one of the fancy mains fuses to the DAC plug and see if it makes a jot of difference.....just humour me!!!!
Sovereign
18-05-2013, 10:42
I have borrowed Jerry's 1500BPS and last night was the first chance I had to listen to any possible differences it would make. I already have the Power Inspired AG1500, the AG 1500 made a good and beneficial improvement to the sound of my hifi, as the mains to my hifi was now 'clean' and a constant 230v I was not expecting much from the BPS.
Using normal T&E I hardwired the BPS to the ring main, again with T&E I wired the BPS to the AG1500, after the AG1500 is my hifi.
At about 11:00 last night I sat down with a familiar jazz album and hit play. I would say the difference was fairly substantial, contrary to my expectations. The first thing I noticed was a bigger and much tighter bass performance, timing was better and everything had a lot more impact and weight to it. Acoustic guitars had more body and substance and the whole musical performance has better speed, weight, timing and impact.
I left it there, I didn't manage to try putting the BPS after the AG1500, I was enjoying myself too much last night.
BALANCED TRANSFORMER FINDINGS
I lOOKED AT TWO THINGS:
Amp (Better straight into wall or into BPS?)
Dac (BPS effect on a source component, not the amp)
MY CONCLUSIONS:
1. CABLE FROM WALL SOCKET TO BPS CAN MAKE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE.
Compared Supra LoRad 2.5/?Wattgate/Silver Toughplug, and B&Q cheapie cable and Lapp/Silver TOughplug/MK IEC.
Best cable from wall to BPS? Lapp - Not a lot in it, but Lapp made music sound more "alive" and involving.
Supra was a bit reserved in comparison, hiding some of the finer detail and air from the recording.
2. AFTER THE BPS - DO CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
Compared the Lapp with the Supra plugged into my Amp after the BPS.
Lapp better, not as noticable but you do miss something.
Surprised cables made a difference after the BPS, but there you go!
3. Amp - plug into wall or BP?
At first, I thought my amp sounded a little better direct into the wall, though through the BPS the bass was cleaner.
After another listen to the amp plugged into the BPS I wasn't sure.
So rather than doing the A/B hifi comparison thing, I played the same track and went about doing other things with it in the background.
Plugged into the BPS had better boogie to it, no loss of dynamics and bass was clearer.
Sitting down and doing a quick comparison again it was more obvious that the BPS improved the amp compared to plugging it into the wall.
I'M SURPRISED BIGGER BALANCED MAINS IMPROVEMENT WITH SOURCE COMPONENTS THAN AN AMP
A bigger improvement was plugging my Young Dac into the balanced mains, more improvement than with the amp.
The Dac was previously hooked up to a Belkin PF30 which improved it compared to straight into the wall, but plugged into the BPS it was a different animal all together.
Clearer, more impact, music flowed better and just sounded even more "right".
Not exactly the big "Balanced Mains Vs. Mains Regeneration" but a fantastic wee comparison, know where I am now with improving my mains.
Just need to hook up my own BPS now, a bit more work than just plugging cables in as it was with the balanced mains unit I tried with IEC and 13A inputs!
Have variables like choice of mains cable/best way to install the thing sorted now, so fitting it real soon. When its in place for a few days Brian will be bringing his AG500 over for a direct comparison.
Big thanks to Tony for the loan of his balanced mains block, helped me play around with different cables and get it straight in my head what Im doing wiring my own up.
Excellent work Gaz
Ali Tait
18-05-2013, 10:53
Interesting Gary, must have a play with cables on mine.
MikeMusic
18-05-2013, 10:54
I left it there, I didn't manage to try putting the BPS after the AG1500, I was enjoying myself too much last night.
I find this a problem too !
:)
Aye, its worth a go Ali.
Thought it was interesting that the Dac benefitted more from the BPS than the valve amp?
You always said glass bottles are affected by cables less than solid state gear...could be that?
@Tony
Tried the wanky fuse in the lead feeding both the Dac and the amp.
Not a lot of difference if I was honest mate. :scratch:
A bit more with the amp I'd say, and you can tell it sounds "different", but still not something you'd not miss if it wasn't there.
BTW Tony, I tried the cable comparison with your cables as they were.
Did some surgery on them last night, re-terminating the plugs and IEC with fresh copper, connecting shield to earth pin and giving everything a clean up with Deoxit, not just the pins, but everything inside too.
Nice improvement. :)
I still prefer the Lapp in my system, I know your not too keen on it.
Give it another whirl see what you think.
If you like it I'll get those spare lengths back to you.
You have PM btw.
Ali Tait
18-05-2013, 11:29
Probably down to the amp having a decent power supply mate, the dac less so, hence it makes more of an improvement IMHO.
wee tee cee
18-05-2013, 11:31
Many thanks Gary, I aint too hot with a soldering iron. Glad you at least heard something different with the fuses. Your post made very interesting reading and dare I say it, will benefit many of the troops on here.
wee tee cee
18-05-2013, 20:30
today was an eye opener for me... Gary kindly sorted the supra lo rad and lapp mains leads i had cobbled together by properly earthing the the respective shields and finishing them off nicely. plumbed my balanced mains back in and and had a bit of fun trying different cables and equipment.my fortune that he brought a couple of high end cables and dacs to sample....just good tunes and good company.........might have to save up my pocket money!!!!!
Yup, crackin' afternoon mate.
Good to hear the Spendor's again, was surprised how good the Bantam moniblocks sounded throught them...think they work better with those than the valve amps?
Fitting in the better interconnects showed there was more potential from that combo, but hooking up the big Quad 63's with the valves was something different all together.
Really, really nice.
Was fun to plug in my Dac to hear it in another system too.
Through the quads and valves it sounded great, never thought speakers that big could be made to disappear!
Remember that Ella Fitzgerald track...nice.
Good day, good tunes, fantastic sausage sanrnie! :)
Sovereign
19-05-2013, 11:24
I'm glad BPS have made a bit of a comeback. They have been around in the pro industry for a very long time, I first used one about ten years ago but I don't remember them making this much difference.
Ali Tait
19-05-2013, 11:46
A lot more pollution on the mains now compared to 10 years ago, more stuff powered with SMPS etc.
True, Ali. It used to be all CB and taxi radios, now there's a lot of mains-borne noise created from hordes of small chargers.
Sovereign
20-05-2013, 10:20
I just hard wired a few bits within the BPS which tightened up the sound a bit more.
I have to say the difference the BPS has made when I put it before the AG1500 has made more of a difference to the sound than when I put the AG1500 into the system on it's own. I haven't taken the AG1500 out of my system yet to run the BPS on it's own as I'm having too much fun as it is.
I am listening to the album I always listen to when I want to test differences, Victor Wooten Soul Circus, the sound is massive, extremely propulsive and hits as hard as a sledgehammer, yet still has the detail and intimacy it always had.
I have to say the difference the BPS has made when I put it before the AG1500 has made more of a difference to the sound than when I put the AG1500 into the system on it's own.
Most interesting Sovereign, I have been wondering how your recent configuration would perform as a link of two boxes .
For my part I have been running the following ~
Mains > AG1500 > Isotek Titan II > Integrated Valve Amplifier / Active Sub.
............. ^
............. CDP
Like yourself I find the combination to perform better as a chain , In particular on amplification , which perhaps given the Raison d'être of the Titan is no great surprise, however the CDP was audibly happier when powered through the AG1500 alone :scratch:
Ideally , In the interest of completeness , I would very much like to trial the PS Audio P5 as well as an AirLink BPS .
Sovereign
20-05-2013, 10:55
What is a Isotek Titan II?
What is a Isotek Titan II?
http://www.isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/products.pl?id=21
Sovereign
20-05-2013, 11:08
Bloody hell! looks like you need a pick up to shift that one!
Bloody hell! looks like you need a pick up to shift that one!
Reasuringly hefty whilst remaining manageable .
I am somewhat curious as to the relative benefit of the disparate combinations of AG1500 + Titan / BPS .
Hmm, the PS Audio P10 is very heavy because it is full of magnetics and active circuitry and justifies the £4k price with its incredible performance. It is, essentially, a humungous 1.5kW power amplifier. The Isotek Titan is a glorified filter, not a regenerator, at more than half the price of the P10.
Let's just remember that a filter cannot possibly lower the mains impedance, it can only hinder it to a greater or lesser degree.
Sovereign
20-05-2013, 22:36
Martin
Does the P10 work on transformers or is it all digital like the AG1500?
Hmm, the PS Audio P10 is very heavy because it is full of magnetics and active circuitry and justifies the £4k price with its incredible performance. It is, essentially, a humungous 1.5kW power amplifier. The Isotek Titan is a glorified filter, not a regenerator, at more than half the price of the P10.
Let's just remember that a filter cannot possibly lower the mains impedance, it can only hinder it to a greater or lesser degree.
Hmmm, well , I wonder whether you have you made yourself entirely familiar with the Titan design topology ?
Isotek seem to have paid particular attention with regard to developing a circuit manifesting miniscule influence in respect of impedance .
Quite obviously the Titan is not designed to regenerate , however in combination with the AG1500 (a regenerator) the sum is , In my experience ,audibly more than the singular .
It has a whopping great transformer and uses a tracking amplifier to 'rebuild' the waveform into a true sinewave. As far as I can see, apart from the digital control electronics, it is analogue all through.
Isotek seem to have paid particular attention with regard to developing a circuit manifesting miniscule influence in respect of impedance .
I do understand that, but it cannot actively reduce mains impedance by the order of 100 times like the P10, because it is not active.
Ammonite Audio
21-05-2013, 06:32
Interesting diversity of experience here. I've attended many Isotek demonstrations at shows where the chap goes from no mains treatment to the full Titan works. The effect of the Isotek mains conditioning can be easily heard, in that the sound becomes smoother and more detailed, but as the application level goes up, to my ears so the music becomes progressively duller and, in every case, I found no Isotek gear to be preferable to any of their stuff. Regenerators are for me probably the most practicable way of dealing with mains problems, but I'm following the balanced mains discussions with interest.
Sovereign
21-05-2013, 06:41
Interesting diversity of experience here. I've attended many Isotek demonstrations at shows where the chap goes from no mains treatment to the full Titan works. The effect of the Isotek mains conditioning can be easily heard, in that the sound becomes smoother and more detailed, but as the application level goes up, to my ears so the music becomes progressively duller and, in every case, I found no Isotek gear to be preferable to any of their stuff. Regenerators are for me probably the most practicable way of dealing with mains problems, but I'm following the balanced mains discussions with interest.
After using both a regen and a BPS nothing became smoother or more dull. The sound of my hifi now compared to what it was is very impact-full and can take me by surprise at times.
Interesting diversity of experience here. The effect of the Isotek mains conditioning can be easily heard, in that the sound becomes smoother and more detailed, but as the application level goes up, to my ears so the music becomes progressively duller and, in every case,
Diverse experiences as you say Hugo :) , during the course of my own , ongoing experimentation, I was not really expecting the current chain to provide the most effective combination to date.
For my part I am pondering upon my next move in this particular game , whether that be AG1500 / BPS with Titan to taste , clearly heading toward Bedlam , or consider the P5 home demo route :scratch:
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 07:27
Intetesting article here, particularly regarding PS Audio-
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_regen.html
Sovereign
21-05-2013, 07:35
My next move is a dedicated hifi spur back to incoming supply to property.
Amazingly I have an electrician who is supplying all materials (£450) and doing all the work and signing it off for free.
I nearly fell over when he offered.
Intetesting article here, particularly regarding PS Audio-
That's old information, Ali. The last PS Audio regenerators to use an output step-up were the P300/P500/P600/P1200 range.
Ammonite Audio
21-05-2013, 18:30
After using both a regen and a BPS nothing became smoother or more dull. The sound of my hifi now compared to what it was is very impact-full and can take me by surprise at times.
Although I haven't tried a BPS, your comments echo my own experience with the PS Audio P5. My comments regarding smooth and dull relate solely to what I've heard in Isotek demonstrations.
Although I haven't tried a BPS, your comments echo my own experience with the PS Audio P5. My comments regarding smooth and dull relate solely to what I've heard in Isotek demonstrations.
Curiously rather opposite to my own experience , whereby the addition of a Titan , inserted between an AG1500 and pre / power amplification , quite audibly takes soundstaging , imaging , clarity etc :etc: on to an altogether higher plain , it would appear somewhat similar to Sovereign's findings albee that via a disparate combination of equipment.
I have just been surprised somewhat upon reading one users findings , with regard to noise measurements pertaining to an PS P10 ~
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bluehorizon/3.html
realysm42
22-05-2013, 08:35
My Aquarius doesn't smooth things out, it just seems to clean a load of low level noise out of the sound.
Whilst this sound couldn't be 'heard' other nuances of the music were smothered by it. I never knew they existed until I took the plunge and gave it a go.
Ali Tait
22-05-2013, 09:41
That's what these kinds of things do - drop the noise floor - and you don't realise how much is missing until the noise is gone.
realysm42
22-05-2013, 09:48
I always thought my mains would be poor, I didn't realise to what extent :)
MikeMusic
22-05-2013, 10:02
That's what these kinds of things do - drop the noise floor - and you don't realise how much is missing until the noise is gone.
Oh yes of course
:doh:
obvious now you said it
:)
I got a nice surprise today when UPS man called :)
I decided to try some further decoupling under my PS Audio P10 regenerator and the RDC 3 Cones seemed to fit the bill perfectly: they have the right height (23mm) to fit under the chassis and clear the built-in feet from the deck and they can support up to 25kg each, perfect for using three under the 33kg P10. Since the P10 is front heavy, I used two at the front just behind the feet and one at centre rear.
My P10 is already placed on a sprung rack so I wasn't expecting much, if any, improvement. What I get is a small but nevertheless valuable further cleaning up of fine detail, focus and spatial positioning. In fact, a little more of all that is good with using the P10 in the first place. I am hearing more as I listen and I consider it to have been a worthwhile investment. Recommended.
http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/image/data/Clearance/1246027842_010845_w450_h400.jpg
RDC cones are superb, the rack they make is something else!
MikeMusic
04-06-2013, 10:37
I decided to try some further decoupling under my PS Audio P10 regenerator and the RDC 3 Cones seemed to fit the bill perfectly: they have the right height (23mm) to fit under the chassis and clear the built-in feet from the deck and they can support up to 25kg each, perfect for using three under the 33kg P10. Since the P10 is front heavy, I used two at the front just behind the feet and one at centre rear.
My P10 is already placed on a sprung rack so I wasn't expecting much, if any, improvement. What I get is a small but nevertheless valuable further cleaning up of fine detail, focus and spatial positioning. In fact, a little more of all that is good with using the P10 in the first place. I am hearing more as I listen and I consider it to have been a worthwhile investment. Recommended.
http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/image/data/Clearance/1246027842_010845_w450_h400.jpg
I have some similar items to try out
I assume you put the body of the kit on these
What happens when the kit's feet are higher than these ?
I have some similar items to try out
I assume you put the body of the kit on these
What happens when the kit's feet are higher than these ?http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ALL%20MCRU%20POWER%20LEADS/deflex-audio-superpods_zps2fc07d9a.jpg
nah
superpods are needed
same designer as the techniboots
monsters
about 100mm diameter of squidgy jelly
I assume you put the body of the kit on these
What happens when the kit's feet are higher than these ?
Yes, body against the chassis so that they are 'point down'.
I chose the RDC 3 as they were the correct height for clearance and yet allowed my P10 to just squeeze into its bay in my rack. There are only a few mm clearance at the top. Good thing the heatsinks are on the side.
I'm not sure that squidgy sorbothane feet would achieve the same aim as RDCs and anyway they would just compress down under the weight of the P10.
they take 25kg load each dude
MikeMusic
04-06-2013, 11:31
nah
superpods are needed
same designer as the techniboots
monsters
about 100mm diameter of squidgy jelly
Under the body or feet of the kit ?
they take 25kg load each dude
Ah, ok!
MikeMusic
04-06-2013, 11:55
Yes, body against the chassis so that they are 'point down'.
Thanks. Some of my feet are too tall to use these.
What kit would you test first ?
What kit would you test first ?
Impossible to answer. I have a sprung rack, which already gives good isolation. You have Mana, completely different. Try everything!
MikeMusic
04-06-2013, 12:45
Impossible to answer. I have a sprung rack, which already gives good isolation. You have Mana, completely different. Try everything!
Damn it you'll be asking me to think for myself soon !
:)
Impossible to answer. I have a sprung rack, which already gives good isolation. You have Mana, completely different. Try everything!
obsessive tinkering will lead to madness
leave it all alone and enjoy the music :)
MikeMusic
04-06-2013, 13:49
obsessive tinkering will lead to madness
leave it all alone and enjoy the music :)
I do some tinkering in amongst the music, not too much
Last night, all on my own I fell asleep while listening to Guitar Greats !
I do some tinkering in amongst the music, not too much
Last night, all on my own I fell asleep while listening to Guitar Greats !
yes that would put anyone to sleep.....:lol:
MikeMusic
04-06-2013, 14:06
yes that would put anyone to sleep.....:lol:
It's the exciting life I lead .........
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